James Randi: fails to explain away Arigo, the surgeon with the rusty knife

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Essex? Is that in Europe?

Super, Friday, 5 November 2004 15:32 (nineteen years ago) link

Idiot boy, you have to prove the placebo effect.

Super, Friday, 5 November 2004 15:33 (nineteen years ago) link

Dude, I have to prove nothing, just like Randi. You're the one making the claim; you have to prove it! This is not complex stuff.

Markelby (Mark C), Friday, 5 November 2004 15:47 (nineteen years ago) link

Here's my proof: It's the placebo effect!

Super, Friday, 5 November 2004 15:51 (nineteen years ago) link

No, you seem to misunderstand. Proof happens when you present conclusive experimental data justified through application of accepted methodologies. When you do that, bring pie I'll listen.

(actually I don't know if I will because you're an insufferable buffoon and I don't want to talk to you)

Markelby (Mark C), Friday, 5 November 2004 15:54 (nineteen years ago) link

No, no, no. I don't need proof. Arigo healed by the placebo effect. Tantra works the same way. Thank you.

Super, Friday, 5 November 2004 15:55 (nineteen years ago) link

It could be argued such that Arigo is doing his thing, and it is the skeptics who are making the claim - a claim of falsehood. Saying 'you make the claim, you prove it' doesn't really help here.

Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Friday, 5 November 2004 16:07 (nineteen years ago) link

i really think you should read up about the placebo effect. there is a lot of interesting literature, and loads of empirical research into it. there's still a lot of speculation on the mechanisms involved, but the effect itself is very well documented and uncontroversial.

Jaunty Alan (Alan), Friday, 5 November 2004 16:12 (nineteen years ago) link

Jaunty, and HOW DOES IT WORK? What is the empirical evidence for the placebo effect? It is invisible aside from the result, correct?

The funny thing is nobody here has even looked at PSI research, let alone an actual research paper or experimental data on the topic and carefully analyzed it. And certainly nobody here has carefully analyzed all the experimental data as a whole.

There are a handful of books on the subject and the only one here mentioned is Psi Wars, which nobody has read obviously.

Super, Friday, 5 November 2004 16:16 (nineteen years ago) link

You are my favourite internet mentalist ever. Don't ever change.

Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 5 November 2004 16:17 (nineteen years ago) link

You are my favourite internet mentalist ever. Don't ever change.

My socks get smelly.

Super, Friday, 5 November 2004 16:19 (nineteen years ago) link

You've ruined it now.

Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 5 November 2004 16:22 (nineteen years ago) link

Am I at least 2nd place or did I shoot to the bottom of your list already?

Super, Friday, 5 November 2004 16:24 (nineteen years ago) link

http://www.bpib.com/illustrat/bauer4.jpg

Girolamo Savonarola, Friday, 5 November 2004 17:23 (nineteen years ago) link

http://www.bpib.com/illustrat/bauer6.jpg

Girolamo Savonarola, Friday, 5 November 2004 17:24 (nineteen years ago) link

http://www.bigredtoybox.com/articles/trolls.jpg

Girolamo Savonarola, Friday, 5 November 2004 17:24 (nineteen years ago) link

http://members.aol.com/kmo53153/trolls.jpg

Girolamo Savonarola, Friday, 5 November 2004 17:26 (nineteen years ago) link

http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/T-Shirts/cambridg/Trolls.jpg

Girolamo Savonarola, Friday, 5 November 2004 17:26 (nineteen years ago) link

http://www.bl0rg.net/trolls/wall005_640.jpg

Girolamo Savonarola, Friday, 5 November 2004 17:27 (nineteen years ago) link

http://ia.imdb.com/media/imdb/01/I/80/02/61m.jpg

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 5 November 2004 17:29 (nineteen years ago) link

http://www.genesbmx.com/trolls.jpg

Girolamo Savonarola, Friday, 5 November 2004 17:29 (nineteen years ago) link

http://toggle.jufu.org/covers/trolls.jpg

Girolamo Savonarola, Friday, 5 November 2004 17:30 (nineteen years ago) link

Ha, ha, Giro. I win! edited out - Super - don't ever do that - Alan

Super, Friday, 5 November 2004 17:33 (nineteen years ago) link

This question and issues that will never be addressed:

"Jaunty, and HOW DOES IT WORK? What is the empirical evidence for the placebo effect? It is invisible aside from the result, correct?

The funny thing is nobody here has even looked at PSI research, let alone an actual research paper or experimental data on the topic and carefully analyzed it. And certainly nobody here has carefully analyzed all the experimental data as a whole.

There are a handful of books on the subject and the only one here mentioned is Psi Wars, which nobody has read obviously."

Super, Friday, 5 November 2004 17:34 (nineteen years ago) link

http://home.student.uu.se/s/stmi8017/images1/troll.jpg

Girolamo Savonarola, Friday, 5 November 2004 17:41 (nineteen years ago) link

http://www.cit.gu.edu.au/~anthony/icons/large/troll.jpg

Girolamo Savonarola, Friday, 5 November 2004 17:41 (nineteen years ago) link

posting goatsecx type images isn't helping your "argument" any, super.

you should go away and read about the placebo effect.

Jaunty Alan (Alan), Friday, 5 November 2004 17:41 (nineteen years ago) link

Jaunty doesn't want to explain it because he knows he's just hit the hole in his argument.

Posting pics of trolls doesn't do say for Giro, either.

Super, Friday, 5 November 2004 17:48 (nineteen years ago) link

That's funny, then why did I just get a special delivery from ILX?

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:BFtCHuMO390J:www.speedqueen.com/vend/images/big_gold_medal.jpg

You should go away and read about PSI research.

Super, Friday, 5 November 2004 18:04 (nineteen years ago) link

And the reverse:

http://www.kathleengiordano.com/ilxdebate.jpg

Super, Friday, 5 November 2004 18:14 (nineteen years ago) link

http://www.kathleengiordano.com/ilxdebate.jpg

Super, Friday, 5 November 2004 18:14 (nineteen years ago) link

And you should just go away. But let me leave you with this little nugget.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True-believer_syndrome

The true-believer syndrome is a term coined by the reformed psychic fraud M. Lamar Keene to refer to an irrational belief in the paranormal. Skeptics see this as a form of self-deception caused by wishful thinking in which a believer continues to accept paranormal explanations for phenomena or events, or denies the relevance of scientific findings, even after the believer has been confronted with abundant evidence that the phenomena or events have natural causes. The term is mainly used by skeptics in the debate over the existence of certain sorts of paranormal phenomena and the persistence of belief in these phenomena.

For example, skeptics generally agree there is sufficient proof to conclude that the alleged miracles of Uri Geller, Sathya Sai Baba and Jim Jones are or were false; they therefore have often reasoned that believers who have been given the extant evidence of fraud in these cases, and yet continue to believe in these men, are described by this condition. Some ex-followers of Sathya Sai Baba accept this syndrome as an explanation of what has happened to them.[1] (http://www.saiguru.net/english/sai_org/14oclery.htm), [2] (http://home.hetnet.nl/~ex_baba/engels/articles/p_holbach/eng/trueb_e.htm?FACTNet)

Robert T. Carroll, the webmaster of the skeptic's dictionary, sees some similarity with a cognitive disorder. However, this syndrome is not used in the scientific literature, has not been included in the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, and no clinical evidence has been provided for its links with demonstrable cognitive impairment or psychopathology.

The true-believer syndrome seems similar in many ways to belief processes identified by Thomas Kuhn in his study on the sociology of science, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. Kuhn demonstrated that scientists can hold onto beliefs in scientific theories despite overwhelming prevailing counter-evidence, and suggested that social forces, as much as ones purely concerned with rationality, are a strong influence on the beliefs we hold. This is an area studied by the sociology of knowledge where the social function of paranormal beliefs has been a focus of research.

The term was not coined by mainstream psychologists nor is it used by them and hence the term could be classified as popular psychology. Though unlike many concepts in popular psychology, there is some empirical proof for its existence.

Girolamo Savonarola, Friday, 5 November 2004 18:15 (nineteen years ago) link

You've got to admit that medal is cool though.

Markelby (Mark C), Friday, 5 November 2004 18:16 (nineteen years ago) link

Giro, I'm sorry, but if you think I'm going to read anything you have to say, you're nuts. I already got my prize:

http://www.kathleengiordano.com/ilxdebate.jpg

Super, Friday, 5 November 2004 18:16 (nineteen years ago) link

But, I did happen to notice use of the "lump-it-together" technique in your "brilliant" nugget.

Super, Friday, 5 November 2004 18:18 (nineteen years ago) link

this should win a prize for longest patently absurd troll-thread on ILX.

Orbit (Orbit), Friday, 5 November 2004 18:26 (nineteen years ago) link

Hmmm... Isn't a Troll someone who jumps all over from post to post? I believe this is just a thread you don't like. It did take your mind off the election, though.

Super, Friday, 5 November 2004 18:28 (nineteen years ago) link

Next up: Science refuses to explain why earth is not hollow.

Orbit (Orbit), Friday, 5 November 2004 23:26 (nineteen years ago) link

Sore loser!

Super, Friday, 5 November 2004 23:33 (nineteen years ago) link

two years pass...

This thread is hilarious! Wow!

Well, at Sébastian's request, I dug up an old thread about Randi (this appears to be the only one), to say he's a carny and the Randi prize is a publicity stunt by a has-been pseudo-skeptic flim-flam. If you are clearly a fraud, Randi will be glad to "test" you. But, for those with the remotest possibility of being able to provide evidence of "paranormal activity," Randi has a history of lying and avoiding these cases entirely. Randi himself has even admitted it when confronted with the fact that his methods are dishonest. He gets away with it, of course, because his audience wants him to succeed and doesn't really care how he does it. If the prize ever was given away, most likely all the pseudo-skeptics in his audience would think he was slipping or in cahoots with the prize-winner.

See first two posts on this thread, if bored:
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=50207&hl=

But, I wouldn't trust a guy with a rusty knife to stab me in the balls LOL.

dean ge, Sunday, 29 July 2007 20:52 (seventeen years ago) link

Man, I love this guy for being such a ranty, insane little gnome man. The world of skeptics is just as weird as the world of the people they're railing against.

Abbott, Sunday, 29 July 2007 22:20 (seventeen years ago) link

two years pass...

Randi vs Global Warming

Oh, it must be Christmas. As I mentioned in Wednesday's news briefs, James Randi has come under fire from all quarters this week, after posting his thoughts about global warming to his blog:

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An unfortunate fact is that scientists are just as human as the rest of us, in that they are strongly influenced by the need to be accepted, to kowtow to peer opinion, and to "belong" in the scientific community. Why do I find this "unfortunate"? Because the media and the hoi polloi increasingly depend upon and accept ideas or principles that are proclaimed loudly enough by academics who are often more driven by "politically correct" survival principles than by those given them by Galileo, Newton, Einstein, and Bohr. (Granted, it's reassuring that they're listening to academics at all -- but how to tell the competent from the incompetent?) Religious and other emotional convictions drive scientists, despite what they may think their motivations are.

...It's easy enough to believe that drought, floods, hurricanes, and earthquakes are signs of a coming catastrophe from global warming, but these are normal variations of any climate that we -- and other forms of life -- have survived. Earth has undergone many serious changes in climate, from the Ice Ages to periods of heavily increased plant growth from their high levels of CO2, yet the biosphere has survived. We're adaptable, stubborn, and persistent -- and we have what other life forms don't have: we can manipulate our environment. Show me an Inuit who can survive in his habitat without warm clothing... Humans will continue to infest Earth because we're smart.

In my amateur opinion, more attention to disease control, better hygienic conditions for food production and clean water supplies, as well as controlling the filth that we breathe from fossil fuel use, are problems that should distract us from fretting about baking in Global Warming.
-----

Given that Randi's skeptical peers and scientific admirers have spent the last couple of months attacking 'Global Warming Deniers', Randi found himself in the unlikely spot of being attacked for his 'pseudo-scientific' opinion piece. Blog posts decrying Randi's statement appeared quickly on Pharyngula, The Quackometer, Cosmic Variance, Greg Laden's Blog and Respectful Insolence. Even more vicious were the comments threads (lead, as it would be expected, by more than 500 Pharyngula comments) in which it was suggested that Randi was suffering from dementia and so on (although you'd have to say there may have been some karmic retribution for Randi in the meanness of it all...with friends like those, who needs 'woo-woo' enemies!) And, in a wonderful bit of timing, Randi managed to post his piece on the same day that a fund-raising drive for the James Randi Educational Foundation kicked into gear. Oops.

The back-pedaling was swift - the next day, Randi posted a new statement, "I'm Not 'Denying' Anything" (which P.Z. Myers labeled a 'not-pology', leading to some fun exchanges between Myers' minions and Randi's followers in comments threads.) And then the back-patting, with plenty of 'skeptics' saying that the criticism of Randi showed how healthy the modern skeptical movement is.

But this is nonsense. Randi took a position which was diametrically opposed to the current scientific consensus, and furthermore one that was absolutely contrary to the argument being put forth on a regular basis by other skeptics such as Phil Plait and P.Z. Myers. There was no other option for them but to criticise Randi – it was either that or be hypocrites. What would be a better test of the health of modern skepticism is if other skeptics pulled Randi up for speaking nonsense about more fringe topics. Which he does on a regular basis. And the silence is deafening. The real truth of modern skepticism as a dogmatic faith is revealed in those particular moments.

In the comments threads, many people seemed shocked that their great beacon of truth was spreading misinformation. But the only reason was because Randi took on a topic which didn't allow his sheeple to nod their head in agreement. Randi often posts rubbish and misinformation on his blog - I've criticised him before in the comments section to his blog (asking for references for dubious claims etc) only to be attacked by other 'skeptics'. For instance, as I mentioned recently, Randi once attacked parapsychologist Dr Dean Radin by saying that he had recently moved into researching presentiment after his other research had failed - in truth, Radin has been publishing successful results on presentiment for more than a decade, in addition to his other research. On another occasion with which I was personally involved, Randi deliberately misled his readers to suit his own personal ends. Randi also often states his dislike (or at least distrust) of the 'ivory tower' of academia, perhaps a result of his own lack of education.

But if 'skeptics' would like to dismiss what I say because it refers to fringe ideas, it should be asked why this GW statement caused such uproar, when Randi has posted scary social-Darwinism rants such as the following (regarding the 'beneficial' effects of drug legalisation on addicts) which perhaps deserved far more criticism:

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Those individuals who were stupid enough to rush into the arms of the mythical houris and/or Adonis's they would expect to greet them, would simply do so and die - by whatever chemical or biological fate would overcome them...the principle of Survival of the Fittest would draconically prove itself for a couple of years, after which Natural Selection would weed out those for whom there is no hope except through our forbearance, and I'm very, very, weary of supporting these losers with my tax dollars.

...Any weeping and wailing over the Poor Little Kids who would perish by immediately gobbling down pills and injecting poison, is summoning up crocodile tears, in my opinion. They would - and presently do - mature into grown-up idiots, and Darwin would be appalled that his lessons were ignored.
-----

So says the world's premiere defender of reason.

Elvis Telecom, Monday, 21 December 2009 03:10 (fourteen years ago) link

Much props to Randi, but I'd be major bummed to find out he was a Libertarian.

Philip Nunez, Monday, 21 December 2009 03:59 (fourteen years ago) link


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