2008 Primaries Thread 3: The Rejecting and Denouncening

gis = you're not worth the effort.

I can understand your inability to see how it's condescending.

lolol A+ condescension.

you do realize that was the joke, right?

B-

http://the-rudy.com/images/rhcp_socks-picture.jpg

...also if you read the whole of Obama's remarks what he is saying makes perfect sense.

while I'm sure this is the case, I'm not sure it really matters in the rinse, you know? what matters is an excerpted paragraph that doesn't sound so great out of context. the spin cycle isn't exactly big on "let's consider the broader context," right

Oh, I know that, John; what I'm saying is that every time they try to get Obama on something that isn't terribly substantive or is basically an over-parse, he hits back with good zings about his opponents' policy shortcomings.

this is thin gruel for controversy in any case - no soundbites, plus what he's saying is patently true

and plus anyone who gets offended by Obama talking about people who "cling" to guns or religion (i.e. it struck a nerve) weren't going to vote for him anyway so bfd

eh i could see it playing into a larger theme of 'obama is selfrighteous' or even 'obama is out of touch with the common (white) man' but even the risk there is pretty fucking minimal (esp considering the 'obama threw his grandma under the bus' bait never really took)(ie he's definitely more teflon than say john kerry was). still call me crazy but i'm guessing as 'gaffes' go (and if this is a gaffe it's a kinsley gaffe right?)(ie. if 31g wants to stop doing po lil ol common (white) men like myself might be offended and explain why he/she's offended by all means go head go head) this doesn't rank w/ say hillary using an easily checked lie as part of her stump speech or john mccain saying we'll be in iraq for a hundred years if necessary (note: 'if neccessary' vague enough to include 'if shit stays fucked up' and 'if shit calms down')(although maybe 31g is like morbs/laura ingraham/fred barnes and thinks this isn't a gaffe but instead an inspiring call to arms, etc.).

yeah i'm def not seeing a reason for drudge_siren here guys

crazier still but a prominent dem pointing out that the right has used slightly petty in the big scheme issues like gun control/"under god"/Hollywood to get poor and middle class white ppl to vote for rich white ppl that go (or stay) in washington and spend the overwhelming majority of their time doing things that directly work against the day-to-day interests and wellbeing of their poor and middle class white constituents - THIS MIGHT BE A GOOD THING, PROMINENT DEMS DOING THIS, IT MIGHT. even if it hurts that dem in that news cycle or even two news cycles (at MOST). maybe even this is a point dems should be hammering fucking home time and time again even if it hurts them in the short run.

drudge ain't even got a link to it (that how HUGE this story is), he's focusing on these crazy out of touchtypical ivory tower liberal gaffes instead.

crazier still but a prominent dem pointing out that the right has used slightly petty in the big scheme issues like gun control/"under god"/Hollywood to get poor and middle class white ppl to vote for rich white ppl that go (or stay) in washington and spend the overwhelming majority of their time doing things that directly work against the day-to-day interests and wellbeing of their poor and middle class white constituents - THIS MIGHT BE A GOOD THING, PROMINENT DEMS DOING THIS, IT MIGHT. even if it hurts that dem in that news cycle or even two news cycles (at MOST). maybe even this is a point dems should be hammering fucking home time and time again even if it hurts them in the short run.

this is on the fucking money but I don't see many Dems growing that kinda spine

They are, the whole Obama campaign is underpinned by that hypothesis even though it is not expressly stated. What's been kind of beautiful is how consistent they are in pointing out who really condescends to the voter/viewer and that they make that point stick; 'average' Americans pretty much think news pundits who escalate and perpetuate storms in teacups just want to keep their ratings up (though they are willing spectators).

Besides Obama has said a gazillion times that he's running this cycle because he's seen enough of DC to know that it's easy to fall out of touch with everyday people once inside the bubble.

lol if it wins in november they might J0hn. i'll admit i'm enough of a 'this fucking party' cynic to know basically that if it doesn't work there's gonna be a strong strong move to go right back to microtrendin pollster 'the best we can hope for is a finger in a dyke' balllessness (christ even after the midterms the begala/clinton wing was trying to get dean dumped - and that was after TAKING BACK CONGRESS)(nevermind their golden boy ford being the most prominent dem loser), and somewhat (well, okay VERY) perversely the thought this actually depresses me more as a repercussion of a mccain victory than yknow four more years of a gop white house cuz frankly no matter what we must remember that first we will be replacing george w. bush and second we won't be replacing him w/ mitt romney so seriously to quote yazz the only way is up. worst case scenario still beats the past 8 years. but the possibility of the dems righting their ship, and the country maybe turning a corner, and maybe maybe actual progress even if no shit it's not enough progress to yr usual vocal corny cranks (it's never enough to quote the cure) - this is a pretty rare opportunity, the first i can think of in my living memory.

what i think is that events are going to force -- are already forcing -- the next president "left" no matter which party he (or she) comes from, and mccain just doesn't have the connections

just for future reference, pretty much everyone who gets into public life with the intent to move things in the right direction or stand in the way of their moving otherwise has more of "a spine" than pretty much everyone who complains about them.

well lotsa republican's much more true believer conservative than mccain have been forced 'left' once it came time to turn words into action and it turned out the american ppl weren't actually that crazy about canceling sesame st/social security, mandate or not.

xpost if if's and buts were candies and nuts we'd all have a merry xmas

thanks for the heads-up brave warrior gabbneb!

but the possibility of the dems righting their ship, and the country maybe turning a corner, and maybe maybe actual progress even if no shit it's not enough progress to yr usual vocal corny cranks

I'm afraid I number among the usual corny cranks insofar as i don't think the ship in question was ever much good in the first place but I feel you on this point

Obama's masterful response to bitter-gate.

I imagine he'll use this great response again when the issue comes up in tomorrow night's debate.

Plus, while I don't feel as strongly on this point as Tom apparently does, I think it will be very hard for the next President to "right the ship" of the country and achieve "actual progress." It's going to be an especially tough four years for the next President, whomever it is.

(xp)

I'm so impressed with Obama's response (the one Hatch linked to). He's just got great instincts for how to approach -- and defuse -- a potentially troubling issue.

But I'm sure HRC will raise this again in the next debate.

man that Terre Haute clip is something else

And it shows him jabbing aggressively. I really like it when Obama shows he can throw punches, not just artfully dodge them.

Oh hey, blount's back. Hey blount, where ya been?

Also, linked to on that Terra Haute vid:

IN 52 SECS WHY BARACK OBAMA CANNOT WIN A GENERAL ELECTION

HE PLANS ON DISARMING AMERICA, DOES HE REALLY THINK THAT THE WORLD WILL LAY DOWN THEIR WEAPONS FOR AMERICA? THIS MAN IF ELECTED WILL PUT AMERICA ON THE DEFENSE AND I AS A REAGAN DEMOCRAT PREFER TO HAVE SAFETY AND SECURITY OVER HOPE AND INSPIRATION!
MY "HOPE" IS THAT HE DOES NOT WIN!

eh i could see it playing into a larger theme of 'obama is selfrighteous' or even 'obama is out of touch with the common (white) man' but even the risk there is pretty fucking minimal (esp considering the 'obama threw his grandma under the bus' bait never really took)(ie he's definitely more teflon than say john kerry was). still call me crazy but i'm guessing as 'gaffes' go (and if this is a gaffe it's a kinsley gaffe right?)(ie. if 31g wants to stop doing po lil ol common (white) men like myself might be offended and explain why he/she's offended by all means go head go head) this doesn't rank w/ say hillary using an easily checked lie as part of her stump speech or john mccain saying we'll be in iraq for a hundred years if necessary (note: 'if neccessary' vague enough to include 'if shit stays fucked up' and 'if shit calms down')(although maybe 31g is like morbs/laura ingraham/fred barnes and thinks this isn't a gaffe but instead an inspiring call to arms, etc.).

In retrospect, I can't believe it took me as long as it did to identify "balls."

Reading Obama's response in Terra Haute (which I agree with) and then McCain's response that Obama is just an "elitist": I love that the GOP (with Clinton of course) has taken up that line of attack. I read that the whole dumb bowling angle on yr Fox News was supposed to establish too. I'll be surprised to see it stick: obv. McCain is vulnerable to this too, and Clinton even more so, so I guess this is "Rove-style politics", hit the enemy with your main weakness. But this kung fu stuff is way too clever: it might persuade a handful of people in "battleground" states, but this only matters when the election is pretty much decided before hand aside from Ohio and Florida or whatever. But I don't think this election is one of those. Also, I'd love to see the Dems hit back against the elitist charge by pointing out McCain's richness and pedigree and all that, but I would have thought that would have been easy against Bush and Kerry didn't do it, so maybe it's harder than I think.

that's a losing game for the Dems to get into Euler because the GOP playbook on this is pretty hard to fight against: they call you elitist, so you point out that they're not exactly working class, they accuse you of being a money-hating socialist, rinse lather repeat - if your opponent has no shame, you can't really appeal to his integrity

Because "not exactly working class" doesn't make you an elitist, whereas "you cling to your political positions because you're bitter about your economic hardships" is an elitist attitude.

eh yah except theres no need to directly respond to their accusations - u just say o great job helping the working class out fattays.

i think O could counter the elitist thing pretty much the same way he countered the foreign policy thing - by talking about sharing some white wine with John McCain or something, but saying that John McCain's gonna go to bat for the guys drinking white wine, while he's gonna go to bat for the guys who have a different preference when they think about a tasty beverage

John McCain's gonna go to bat for the guys drinking white wine

er/or, the guys who gave them the wine

"Does Barack Obama Think Beer-Drinking America Needs a Pinch Hitter?"

I really, really, really hope Obama can follow through on his rhetoric because I think his rhetoric is OTM.

Because "not exactly working class" doesn't make you an elitist, whereas "you cling to your political positions because you're bitter about your economic hardships" is an elitist attitude.

is it really?

serious question, it doesn't seem that way to me. his business last year about farmers in overalls asking him about Burma instead of corn being a big surprise to him, ok, that was kinda ripe I gotta say. but I feel him in Terre Haute, even though I'm not on the at-last-a-great-and-honest-politician-we-can-all-get-behind train.

Wait, that wasn't a sarcastic statement?

which one

if you mean Kerm's OK I totally just read it straight, people sometimes say I'm faux-naive but in fact I'm just naive about people's tone of voice online

I read it as sarcastic but that's just because I have a well of poison where my heart should be.

it must make some people mad that Obama can do populism without hurting the unity message at all

Is that a new campaign requirement?

I have a well of poison where my heart should be.

would love to talk more but I think I need to write a Sisters of Mercy pastiche using this line as the big ramp-up before the minor-key grandiose chorus

I wasn't being sarcastic.

I think the Obama line was pretty cringeworthy. He needs to avoid saying stuff like that.

the 'clinging to religion' line is a bit rich.

yeah sorry by "the Obama line" i meant the part about clinging to guns and religion

I think the Obama line was pretty cringeworthy. He needs to avoid saying stuff like that.

it isn't the first time - this kinda sucked and is already being dredged up by the our-side-rules-your-side-drools brigade - but his gift for saying "look: I meant what I said, and I don't think there's anything wrong with it" without coming off like an asshole is really something else