ATTN: Copyeditors and Grammar Fiends

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_archive_(punctuation)

tl;dr

AP style says that proper names ending in "s" get just a single apostrophe for the possessive form with no additional "s"

AP style is FUCKING WRONG, then.

alba: grrr. if you look back at the version-two style guide for your newspaper -- written, i believe, by some dashingly handsome and wildly intelligent young buck -- you'll find it says NOTHING OF THE FUCKING SORT. that's an RW-ism if ever i saw one.

mind, dude is the editor, so i guess it's his call :)

I thought Fowler was more or less completely against it, but I only have the Burchfield edition of Fowler's to hand, which says that dropping the s after s' is only for classical names (Socrates', Demosthenes'; also Jesus' is "acceptable liturgical archaism") and names ending in unaccented syllable pronounced -iz, e.g. Bridges', Moses'.

Most of my school English teachers suggested or at least allowed it in more circumstances than that, but then some of them also said some distinctly nutty things, so never mind.

gf, I think you misread me.

(RW still pushes the AP line that he learned from his English teacher, but so far your rule persists. There's another aspect to it, where we treat companies as singular, even when their name is plural, leading to such absurdities as "Northern Foods's profits", and band names as plural, leading to "Oasis'". I'm not sure where you stand on this. I think it's possibly a PMism, or maybe a RSism)

It seems a bit odd to have a rule based on the meaning of the name. "Paris's air of romance recalls Paris' elopement with Helen."

i believe the AP rule, like a lot AP rules, is primarily in the interest of saving space. all those characters add up. although on the bookshelf to my right i can see this:

http://www.bookcourt.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/jesus%20son.jpg

I've read some weird variant rule where singular names take a second s ... unless they're classical.

St James' Park (Newcastle)
St James Park (Exeter)
St James's Park (London)

This week Private Eye has decided to call the part of its letters section that deals with tooth-grindingly boring corrections "Pe'dants Corner"

gf, I think you misread me

hang on ... <re-reads> ...

Our paper always does s poss s for singlular words ending in s, reserving s' for plurals

... yes, you're right. somehow i read this (quickly) as "always does poss s" and didn't really think about how the last bit rendered that nonsensical. in which case: hurrah! yay me. even though i seem to have now lost the ability to read.

that said:

leading to such absurdities as "Northern Foods's profits", and band names as plural, leading to "Oasis'". I'm not sure where you stand on this

both of those are fucking insane.

Would it be churlish to point out that AP style, combined with the American tradition of always using the singular for proper names of companies and bands, would avoid both of the above embarrassments?

We use singular apostrophes for words that end with 's'. However, during their last session, the Arkansas State Legislature mandated that when mentioning the state, one should use "Arkansas's". Part of the thinking was the fact that the sound of the last syllable doesn't actually have an 's' sound.

Would it be churlish to point out that AP style, combined with the American tradition of always using the singular for proper names of companies and bands, would avoid both of the above embarrassments?

Yes, but we can just avoid them anyway. Also, the US way with singular bands means you end up having to work around things like "Oasis is great, but when it toured last year everyone laughed at Liam's new teeth".

Arkansas's". Part of the thinking was the fact that the sound of the last syllable doesn't actually have an 's' sound.

yeah but you add it when you say arkansas' -- "arkansaws". as opposed to "arkansaw-zes," which is what the apostrophe s would tend to lead to.

what alba said

The word highfalutin

this is important information! b/c i have only ever heard it said, not written! sort like 'lollygaggin'

oh hey i did you know that sublimation is not only when a solid turns into a gas but is what would be happening to all the accumulated snow right now if it weren't actually snowing right now. it is actually spelled sublimation's'in tho

Alba: Capladi? ouch

Yeah, I know. It wasn't me!

Please never ever get your hands on a copy of the first edition of last week's main section.

ooo.
Stan!

Beginning of shift: phone call from elderly doctor (retd) to tell me "data" is plural and so is "bacteria" and could we please have "datum" and "bacterium" in our pages when required, and by the way don't proofreaders spot such errors? We're practically a laughing stock in certain circles.

End of shift: find sweet letter from 7-year-old girl pointing out plural of "Ood" is "Ood".

what did you say to him? put him through to me if he calls back; i'd relish that fight

(tho i agree about bacterium, natch. data: when i've got my other hat on, i'd agree with that too. so it wouldn't be much of a fight.)

Also, the US way with singular bands means you end up having to work around things like "Oasis is great, but when it toured last year everyone laughed at Liam's new teeth".

I actually think there's something lovely and possibly even important in saying "Oasis is great, but when they toured last year"... yes, it doesn't agree, but it gets at something cool about bands, that they're an entity as well as a collection of separate people. I realize this doesn't fly at a newspaper, though. I think the way around it is to be clear about which sense you mean, or rewrite, rather than resort to this fudge of saying "Pink Floyd are great" or whatever. I know it's an accepted convention in UK writing, but "the band are great"? Irritating. I would write "Oasis is great, but when the band toured last year, everyone laughed..." or "Oasis is great, but when the boys toured last year..." or "Oasis is great, but during last year's tour everyone..." Would any of those fly in a UK newspaper, or are bands always considered plural??

Of course you could also go with the technically most correct "Oasis is shite".

Hello

I'm reading wildly conflicting style guidance about ellipsis points and other punctuation.

Do I have to put full stops (or points) in in addition to the ellipsis marks in this passage ie have four points? Do I put a space between the full stop and the ellipsis points? Our style guide just says to use three closed up dots with a space either side, but only gives an example of within a quotation.

Mr Suleiman told As Safir, a pro-opposition local daily newspaper, "I'm tired of the ongoing bickering over my name as a consensus presidential candidate … If one side nominates me, the other objects. If one country backs my nomination, other countries object … Every time we make a step forward, we find ourselves facing more demands." He firmly ruled out the possibility of taking power in a non-violent military coup: "Lebanon is not a country of military coups … All we can do as Lebanese is to keep calm and be patient."

On the bands thing, I used to like the way John Peel used the plural somewhat absurdly: "Those were the Wedding Present."

Sorry. It only gives an example of within a sentence.

NYT style guide says period, space, ellipsis.
(. ... )
Then again, I wrote a book once and the proofreader took out all the fourth points.

yeah at the end of a sentence you need the period plus the three points. within sentence, just the three points. in either case, a space on either side of the ellipses. (also using ellipses in quotes at all is bad practice, but i know lots of places do it. i've done it myself, although i've gotten a lot better about finding ways not to.)

Oh, the brain damage—can anyone tell me the word, which in another dimension I CAN SUMMON UP AT WILL, for the process of sorting by size?

i don't know, but a google search turns up a machine for sorting by size of pear-shaped objects.

I tried all manner of Google searches. I would sure hate to ask my ex-boss, who used the term regularly. Urgh. Better to stick to pear-shaped object sorting.
The average Anjou is smaller than the average woman's butt, yet larger than a lute.

NO! Smaller than a lute!
I am drunk.

Winnowing?

No that's not it.

the proofreader took out all the fourth points.

they did this to my thesis too, so i just took them out where applicable, whatever, even tho, yknow, i'm a copyeditor lol - dif styles to contend with. but i think it does look better/cleaner with just three dots. i never put a space before the first dot but do after the third one. but my copyeditor style is of the 'yeah whatever as long as it's consistent throughout the doc/program/company/etc' variety

I like the full stop because it tells the reader - yes, the sentence did end there, right there.

^^ Not that I can dredge up an example offhand, but I can picture situations in which that sentence-ending information would actually be important to meaning.

ending sentences is overrated

we're all connected in this great big universe don't try to put a limit on it let go

...

you know what's awesome rrrobyn

^^ punctuate as you're inclined

http://stevegarufi.com/manitouincline0.jpg

http://www.feeco.com/Portals/0/steep_incline_conveyors.jpg

hi nabisco

http://illuminations.nctm.org/lessons/students/incline.jpg

you know what's awesome? rrrobyn.

You! Know what's awesome, rrrobyn!

You-know-what's awesome, rrrobyn.