2008 Primaries Thread 3: The Rejecting and Denouncening

ive been thinking for while that bill subconsciously doesnt want hillary to be president. but now im wondering if he might be purposely sabotaging her campaign. hes got it pretty good jetting around the world playing elder statesman making millions and millions of dollars and theres no newt gingrich ken starr types busting his balls 24/7. maybe he just cant stand the thought of being back in that arena. i wouldnt blame him.

Maybe he doesn't want to be the first First Husband.

Obama comment about small town mindset:

Obama's remarks, which came at a San Francisco fundraiser, were as follows:

"You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them...And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not.

"And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

Clinton addressed the Obama statement without prompting. Telling the crowd that, "it is being reported that my opponent said that the people of Pennsylvania who faced hard times are bitter," the New Yorker immediately sought to draw a contrast.

"Well, that is not my experience," she said. "As I travel around Pennsylvania I meet people who are resilient, optimistic, positive, who are rolling up their sleeves. They are working hard every day for a better future for themselves and their children"

UPDATE: McCain spokesman Steve Schmidt had this to say on Obama's remarks:

"It shows an elitism and condescension towards hardworking Americans that is nothing short of breathtaking," Schmidt said. "It is hard to imagine someone running for president who is more out of touch with average Americans."

UPDATE: The Obama camp has released the following statement, responding to John McCain, via spokesman Tommy Vietor:

"Senator Obama has said many times in this campaign that Americans are understandably upset with their leaders in Washington for saying anything to win elections while failing to stand up to the special interests and fight for an economic agenda that will bring jobs and opportunity back to struggling communities. And if John McCain wants a debate about who's out of touch with the American people, we can start by talking about the tax breaks for the wealthiest Americans that he once said offended his conscience but now wants to make permanent."

The whole problem with HRC's campaign is 'experience' based. She should maybe avoid using that word to describe the things that she sees.

It's funny watching the campaigns try to seize on 'bitter' - you'd almost think that Obama threw it out there as a McGuffin.

I think this is a really bad gaffe, but then I have a pretty terrible record of predicting what's going to be important in this campaign.

Obama's "talking like an adult to adults" demeanor is great and refreshing, but a backlash like the one HRC is trying to ignite is a worry. Voters might get tired of hearing why they're understandably bitter, racist, anti-immigrant, gun-obsessed types. Put differently, there's a reason why code words and euphamisms are traditionally used instead of direct appeals to racism, sexism, xenophobia and so forth. They work. Obama's shown an amazing ability to talk straightforwardly about these very delicate issues, and bring people to his side on them, all without incurring a backlash . . . so far. I hope he can keep it up.

(What's a really bad gaffe, 31g?)

John McCain is a really bad gaffe.

Obama's comments about Pennsylvanians

xp that too

Isn't a gaffe like throwing up on the President of Japan or constantly messing up the different ethnic groups of a country you want to occupy for 100 years? This seems more like a conscious choice to me. Whether it's a poorly considered one remains to be seen.

Yeah. It isn't a gaffe. It might be a misstep.

Well if you are going to make a misstep, it's a good idea to make it late Friday afternoon.

Man you guys are being pedantic. My point is that it's legit condescending and seems like something a moment's thought would have revealed wasn't a good idea to say.

I don't see what's condescending about it.

I think the best judges of whether or not it was condescending to 'average' Americans are probably people who don't use 'average' as a term of fake common cause.

Euler I can understand your inability to see how it's condescending. Some of these young people have just been on the internet so long, they've lost the ability to comprehend how a statement is likely to be received, you can't blame them really...

Yes please school in the ways of the real world amateur pundit! Now I remember why I don't read this thread.

31g is a sockpuppet.

god forbid amateur punditry occur on the rolling primaries thread.

xp of who, Hillary?

...also if you read the whole of Obama's remarks what he is saying makes perfect sense. My mom's in that demographic and she would agree with him even as she rags on 'illegals'.

He's a sock-puppet of David Brooks.

Other sockpuppet: mkcaine.

It does sound a lot better in context but it's still pretty obnoxious. And obv the fact that something sounds better in context is no help politically. It's denying people agency in forming their own beliefs...I mean I guess it's not that different from some of the stuff he said in his big Wright speech but it's still hard for me to believe that anyone could see nothing condescending in those comments.

Alex in sf have I not succeeded in driving you away from this thread yet?

Now whose being pedantic?

(j/k)

thanks for saving me the effort of preparing a zing

zing preparedness is an important skill to learn

Aw, honey, you really don't have to go to such trouble for little old us. xpost

Want some?

http://www.nicholasroussos.com/images/chocolate-zinger.jpg

gis = store-bought zings

gis = you're not worth the effort.

I can understand your inability to see how it's condescending.

lolol A+ condescension.

you do realize that was the joke, right?

B-

http://the-rudy.com/images/rhcp_socks-picture.jpg

...also if you read the whole of Obama's remarks what he is saying makes perfect sense.

while I'm sure this is the case, I'm not sure it really matters in the rinse, you know? what matters is an excerpted paragraph that doesn't sound so great out of context. the spin cycle isn't exactly big on "let's consider the broader context," right

Oh, I know that, John; what I'm saying is that every time they try to get Obama on something that isn't terribly substantive or is basically an over-parse, he hits back with good zings about his opponents' policy shortcomings.

this is thin gruel for controversy in any case - no soundbites, plus what he's saying is patently true

and plus anyone who gets offended by Obama talking about people who "cling" to guns or religion (i.e. it struck a nerve) weren't going to vote for him anyway so bfd

eh i could see it playing into a larger theme of 'obama is selfrighteous' or even 'obama is out of touch with the common (white) man' but even the risk there is pretty fucking minimal (esp considering the 'obama threw his grandma under the bus' bait never really took)(ie he's definitely more teflon than say john kerry was). still call me crazy but i'm guessing as 'gaffes' go (and if this is a gaffe it's a kinsley gaffe right?)(ie. if 31g wants to stop doing po lil ol common (white) men like myself might be offended and explain why he/she's offended by all means go head go head) this doesn't rank w/ say hillary using an easily checked lie as part of her stump speech or john mccain saying we'll be in iraq for a hundred years if necessary (note: 'if neccessary' vague enough to include 'if shit stays fucked up' and 'if shit calms down')(although maybe 31g is like morbs/laura ingraham/fred barnes and thinks this isn't a gaffe but instead an inspiring call to arms, etc.).

yeah i'm def not seeing a reason for drudge_siren here guys

crazier still but a prominent dem pointing out that the right has used slightly petty in the big scheme issues like gun control/"under god"/Hollywood to get poor and middle class white ppl to vote for rich white ppl that go (or stay) in washington and spend the overwhelming majority of their time doing things that directly work against the day-to-day interests and wellbeing of their poor and middle class white constituents - THIS MIGHT BE A GOOD THING, PROMINENT DEMS DOING THIS, IT MIGHT. even if it hurts that dem in that news cycle or even two news cycles (at MOST). maybe even this is a point dems should be hammering fucking home time and time again even if it hurts them in the short run.

drudge ain't even got a link to it (that how HUGE this story is), he's focusing on these crazy out of touchtypical ivory tower liberal gaffes instead.

crazier still but a prominent dem pointing out that the right has used slightly petty in the big scheme issues like gun control/"under god"/Hollywood to get poor and middle class white ppl to vote for rich white ppl that go (or stay) in washington and spend the overwhelming majority of their time doing things that directly work against the day-to-day interests and wellbeing of their poor and middle class white constituents - THIS MIGHT BE A GOOD THING, PROMINENT DEMS DOING THIS, IT MIGHT. even if it hurts that dem in that news cycle or even two news cycles (at MOST). maybe even this is a point dems should be hammering fucking home time and time again even if it hurts them in the short run.

this is on the fucking money but I don't see many Dems growing that kinda spine

They are, the whole Obama campaign is underpinned by that hypothesis even though it is not expressly stated. What's been kind of beautiful is how consistent they are in pointing out who really condescends to the voter/viewer and that they make that point stick; 'average' Americans pretty much think news pundits who escalate and perpetuate storms in teacups just want to keep their ratings up (though they are willing spectators).

Besides Obama has said a gazillion times that he's running this cycle because he's seen enough of DC to know that it's easy to fall out of touch with everyday people once inside the bubble.

lol if it wins in november they might J0hn. i'll admit i'm enough of a 'this fucking party' cynic to know basically that if it doesn't work there's gonna be a strong strong move to go right back to microtrendin pollster 'the best we can hope for is a finger in a dyke' balllessness (christ even after the midterms the begala/clinton wing was trying to get dean dumped - and that was after TAKING BACK CONGRESS)(nevermind their golden boy ford being the most prominent dem loser), and somewhat (well, okay VERY) perversely the thought this actually depresses me more as a repercussion of a mccain victory than yknow four more years of a gop white house cuz frankly no matter what we must remember that first we will be replacing george w. bush and second we won't be replacing him w/ mitt romney so seriously to quote yazz the only way is up. worst case scenario still beats the past 8 years. but the possibility of the dems righting their ship, and the country maybe turning a corner, and maybe maybe actual progress even if no shit it's not enough progress to yr usual vocal corny cranks (it's never enough to quote the cure) - this is a pretty rare opportunity, the first i can think of in my living memory.

what i think is that events are going to force -- are already forcing -- the next president "left" no matter which party he (or she) comes from, and mccain just doesn't have the connections

just for future reference, pretty much everyone who gets into public life with the intent to move things in the right direction or stand in the way of their moving otherwise has more of "a spine" than pretty much everyone who complains about them.

well lotsa republican's much more true believer conservative than mccain have been forced 'left' once it came time to turn words into action and it turned out the american ppl weren't actually that crazy about canceling sesame st/social security, mandate or not.

xpost if if's and buts were candies and nuts we'd all have a merry xmas

thanks for the heads-up brave warrior gabbneb!

but the possibility of the dems righting their ship, and the country maybe turning a corner, and maybe maybe actual progress even if no shit it's not enough progress to yr usual vocal corny cranks

I'm afraid I number among the usual corny cranks insofar as i don't think the ship in question was ever much good in the first place but I feel you on this point