Sunny's quite right there.
Something very random that just occurred to me -- are anti-vax folks who have pets like dogs and cats also anti-vax for them too?
― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 25 May 2010 17:13 (fourteen years ago) link
my g/f works at a vet clinic - you'd be amazed!
― The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall, Tuesday, 25 May 2010 18:28 (fourteen years ago) link
Mistrust of medical doctors goes back a long, long way, as does mistrust of scientists and their motives or judgement. The anti-vaccine movement is just another manifestation of this long standing undercurrent in society.
One difficulty here is that humans are both fallible and delusion-prone. Consequently, there are plenty of true anecdotes that illustrate times when both medecine and science have failed, or fallen prey to delusion. Anyone who chooses to focus on these failures and delusions, instead of the many successes, can justify their cynicism and mistrust. Nor will the critics and cynics have any useful yardstick by which to measure any particular therapy or medical practise, since all the trustworthy yardsticks will be discredited by their association with those "error-prone" scientific methods.
Then it is just a matter of one's emotional reactions taking over.
― Aimless, Tuesday, 25 May 2010 19:09 (fourteen years ago) link
My vet has told me that, with a few exceptions, if your cats are strictly indoors, then in her opinion vaccinations are pretty much optional. Only if they have a lot of interactions outside with other cats does she recommend a full spectrum of regular vaccinations.
― I guess for copraphiles this is gonna be awesome (Pancakes Hackman), Tuesday, 25 May 2010 19:50 (fourteen years ago) link
http://tallguywrites.livejournal.com/148012.html
― sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Tuesday, 25 May 2010 20:06 (fourteen years ago) link
I see, Ned, that you are unfamiliar with the concept of the homeopathic vet.
― naglpuss (c sharp major), Tuesday, 25 May 2010 20:08 (fourteen years ago) link
And for that I am glad.
― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 25 May 2010 20:09 (fourteen years ago) link
One the one hand, homeopathic vets make me worry for the pets' health. On the other hand, it is the only place I have seen a custom painting of a horse and its chakras.
― frozen cookie (Abbott), Tuesday, 25 May 2010 20:19 (fourteen years ago) link
http://www.patinkas.co.uk/Chakra_System_of_Animals/a_Horse_Chakras_Pic.jpg
Oh look, now you don't have to go.
― frozen cookie (Abbott), Tuesday, 25 May 2010 20:20 (fourteen years ago) link
Thread connections
― GamalielRatsey, Tuesday, 25 May 2010 20:22 (fourteen years ago) link
the gf told me about this one lady who had her cat on some crazy raw food diet with no vaccinations. it had worms and all sorts of other things going on - and she herself also got salmonella from sampling her cat's food.
― The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall, Tuesday, 25 May 2010 20:26 (fourteen years ago) link
lol/smh @ horse chakras
― LINGO FROM THE BURGER KING KIDS CLUB (latebloomer), Tuesday, 25 May 2010 20:28 (fourteen years ago) link
finally I have the information I need to take down my nemesis Das Pferd
― Meadow Man, Tuesday, 25 May 2010 20:29 (fourteen years ago) link
I drive past a place on the way to work that I believe is a pet acupuncturist. Um, yeah.
― mh, Tuesday, 25 May 2010 21:08 (fourteen years ago) link
See that's why i want a pet porcupine. Think of all the pet acupuncturist bills I'd be saving on.
― LINGO FROM THE BURGER KING KIDS CLUB (latebloomer), Tuesday, 25 May 2010 21:11 (fourteen years ago) link
Horse chakras!?
― property-disrespecting Moroccan handjob (Trayce), Thursday, 27 May 2010 12:01 (fourteen years ago) link
"alternate Heart site"
― I guess for copraphiles this is gonna be awesome (Pancakes Hackman), Thursday, 27 May 2010 14:56 (fourteen years ago) link
oh Christ, my old neighbour used to go to someone to do reiki on her cats. I'm still not quite sure what that involves but there are some 'interesting' websites about it if you google 'reiki for cats'. Anyway when the cat died this woman apparently was still able to do reiki on it once it was buried, and tell the owner that the cat was ok spiritually.
― Not the real Village People, Thursday, 27 May 2010 18:26 (fourteen years ago) link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_model
― goole, Thursday, 27 May 2010 18:28 (fourteen years ago) link
loooooooool
― Image: electrostimulation applied on a penis (HI DERE), Thursday, 27 May 2010 18:29 (fourteen years ago) link
Flashbacks to our cat whisperer discussion there.
― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 27 May 2010 18:36 (fourteen years ago) link
Cat Whisperer, his green eyes implored, take me home.
― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 27 May 2010 18:37 (fourteen years ago) link
lol
― Image: electrostimulation applied on a penis (HI DERE), Thursday, 27 May 2010 18:42 (fourteen years ago) link
Review of Andrew Wakefield's new book, which will no doubt be given the licence-to-print-money description of "CONTROVERSIAL".
― Not the real Village People, Wednesday, 2 June 2010 18:53 (fourteen years ago) link
Henry got his 6 month shots today (a month and a half late) and the first thing I said when I saw him was 'aww you're all autistic now!'
― no more springs no more summers no more falls (sunny successor), Thursday, 3 June 2010 03:19 (fourteen years ago) link
holy shit @ the pullquote in the wakefield review -
"Maternal instinct... has been a steady hand upon the tiller of evolution; we would not be here without it."
― sent from my neural lace (ledge), Thursday, 3 June 2010 08:22 (fourteen years ago) link
great New Scientist piece: http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627606.100-living-in-denial-why-sensible-people-reject-the-truth.html?full=true
echoes much of what Plasmon wrote upthread.
...Similarly, global warming, evolution and the link between tobacco and cancer must be taken on trust, usually on the word of scientists, doctors and other technical experts who many non-scientists see as arrogant and alien.Many people see this as a threat to important aspects of their lives. In Texas last year, a member of a state committee who was trying to get creationism added to school science standards almost said as much when he proclaimed "somebody's got to stand up to experts".It is this sense of loss of control that really matters. In such situations, many people prefer to reject expert evidence in favour of alternative explanations that promise to hand control back to them, even if those explanations are not supported by evidence (see "Giving life to a lie").All denialisms appear to be attempts like this to regain a sense of agency over uncaring nature: blaming autism on vaccines rather than an unknown natural cause, insisting that humans were made by divine plan, rejecting the idea that actions we thought were okay, such as smoking and burning coal, have turned out to be dangerous...
Many people see this as a threat to important aspects of their lives. In Texas last year, a member of a state committee who was trying to get creationism added to school science standards almost said as much when he proclaimed "somebody's got to stand up to experts".
It is this sense of loss of control that really matters. In such situations, many people prefer to reject expert evidence in favour of alternative explanations that promise to hand control back to them, even if those explanations are not supported by evidence (see "Giving life to a lie").
All denialisms appear to be attempts like this to regain a sense of agency over uncaring nature: blaming autism on vaccines rather than an unknown natural cause, insisting that humans were made by divine plan, rejecting the idea that actions we thought were okay, such as smoking and burning coal, have turned out to be dangerous...
― Don Homer, I have baked a special donut just-a for you (kingfish), Saturday, 5 June 2010 07:52 (fourteen years ago) link
some Not Really Getting It posts in the comments section.
― circa1916, Saturday, 5 June 2010 09:23 (fourteen years ago) link
Martin McKee, an epidemiologist at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine who also studies denial, has identified six tactics that all denialist movements use.1. Allege that there's a conspiracy. Claim that scientific consensus has arisen through collusion rather than the accumulation of evidence.2. Use fake experts to support your story. "Denial always starts with a cadre of pseudo-experts with some credentials that create a facade of credibility," says Seth Kalichman of the University of Connecticut.3. Cherry-pick the evidence: trumpet whatever appears to support your case and ignore or rubbish the rest. Carry on trotting out supportive evidence even after it has been discredited.4. Create impossible standards for your opponents. Claim that the existing evidence is not good enough and demand more. If your opponent comes up with evidence you have demanded, move the goalposts.5. Use logical fallacies. Hitler opposed smoking, so anti-smoking measures are Nazi. Deliberately misrepresent the scientific consensus and then knock down your straw man.6. Manufacture doubt. Falsely portray scientists as so divided that basing policy on their advice would be premature. Insist "both sides" must be heard and cry censorship when "dissenting" arguments or experts are rejected.
1. Allege that there's a conspiracy. Claim that scientific consensus has arisen through collusion rather than the accumulation of evidence.2. Use fake experts to support your story. "Denial always starts with a cadre of pseudo-experts with some credentials that create a facade of credibility," says Seth Kalichman of the University of Connecticut.3. Cherry-pick the evidence: trumpet whatever appears to support your case and ignore or rubbish the rest. Carry on trotting out supportive evidence even after it has been discredited.4. Create impossible standards for your opponents. Claim that the existing evidence is not good enough and demand more. If your opponent comes up with evidence you have demanded, move the goalposts.5. Use logical fallacies. Hitler opposed smoking, so anti-smoking measures are Nazi. Deliberately misrepresent the scientific consensus and then knock down your straw man.6. Manufacture doubt. Falsely portray scientists as so divided that basing policy on their advice would be premature. Insist "both sides" must be heard and cry censorship when "dissenting" arguments or experts are rejected.
think I have seen these tactics used outside of denialist movements tbh
― denvil crowe (dyao), Saturday, 5 June 2010 09:49 (fourteen years ago) link
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129198775&ps=cprs
― buzza, Monday, 16 August 2010 23:27 (fourteen years ago) link
my chiro, suggests that forceps harm the brain and push up against the skull, therefore, toxins get stuck,,, toxins from the vaccines, get stuck and cant get out and harm the brain,...???? sounds accurate to me... not to mention the ultrasounds constantly monitoring... 30 years ago they did not use ultrasound the same ...during pregnancy... comments please!!! just the facts
― ('_') (omar little), Monday, 16 August 2010 23:32 (fourteen years ago) link
sounds accurate to me!
― lene lovage (elmo argonaut), Monday, 16 August 2010 23:38 (fourteen years ago) link
it's a, pretty compelling argument... she,..? makes
― ('_') (omar little), Monday, 16 August 2010 23:42 (fourteen years ago) link
just the fax ma'am just the fax
― conrad, Monday, 16 August 2010 23:45 (fourteen years ago) link
Experiencing Teen Drama Overload? Blame Vaccines.
― Ned Raggett, Monday, 16 August 2010 23:49 (fourteen years ago) link
You had me up until 'my chiro.'
That's strange. Twenty years ago I was told that they didn't use ultrasound the same way thirty years prior to that. One of us (or both of us) must be wrong. And the theory that most diseases are caused by stored toxins was disproven a long time ago. Alternative medicine is where bad science goes to die.
― Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Tuesday, 17 August 2010 00:21 (fourteen years ago) link
specifically?"
― Spencer Chow, Tuesday, 17 August 2010 20:52 (fourteen years ago) link
errr
should say:
One of my favorite questions to ask is: "Which toxins are you referring to specifically?"
― Spencer Chow, Tuesday, 17 August 2010 20:53 (fourteen years ago) link
why don't chiropractors just shut up and crack your back a few times? No one goes to their dentist and listens to a spiel about toxins.
― Matt Armstrong, Tuesday, 17 August 2010 21:15 (fourteen years ago) link
That's because my dentist has seen my teeth, he knows toxins are the least of my problems.
― Jesus doesn't want me for a thundercloud (Laurel), Tuesday, 17 August 2010 21:16 (fourteen years ago) link
Has anybody read the new book _ Denialism_?
― Jaw dropping, thong dropping monster (kingfish), Tuesday, 17 August 2010 22:57 (fourteen years ago) link
Just wanted to say I got to give one kid the HPV vaccine today and another one an Adacel shot (the Diphtheria/Pertussis/Tetanus booster) today, so I did my part to poison the youth of America today.
― C-L, Tuesday, 17 August 2010 23:30 (fourteen years ago) link
The hpv vaccine is kind of weird for me because I'm just old enough that women my age were right above the 25 yr old cutoff when it became more widespread, so for half the people I date it hardly enters their mind while the other half seem to have mostly gotten it. Probably a few vaccines like that historically, but it's interesting to me
― turtles all the way down (mh), Wednesday, 18 August 2010 02:49 (fourteen years ago) link
I had the bad luck to have become an adult a year or two before the chicken pox vaccine became widespread. I caught the disease a month or two into my first job and spent a nervous week or two hoping that the breathing problems that I were having wouldn't get bad enough that I'd have to be rushed to the emergency room. I still have a lot of scars on my forehead, chest, and arms.
― Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 18 August 2010 03:06 (fourteen years ago) link
Yeah, that was the other that came to mind. My sister was not quite in middle school and was "too young" because her doc thought it'd be better to just get the illness if it was going to happen. I was 14 and had never had chicken pox so Ingot vaccinated. 15 years later, I'm still happy I was.
― turtles all the way down (mh), Wednesday, 18 August 2010 03:20 (fourteen years ago) link
I got vaccinated, I mean. One-handed typing killing me, Unfortunately I never got vaccinated for wrist fractures
― turtles all the way down (mh), Wednesday, 18 August 2010 03:21 (fourteen years ago) link
Overuse of the word "toxins" irritates me generally. "I need to clean out all the toxins that have built up from the bad food I've been eating." What have you been eating, rattlesnakes?
― “Going on tour with Midnight Oil” and more outmoded masturbation slang (kenan), Wednesday, 18 August 2010 04:03 (fourteen years ago) link
haha, I love when people are all about that stuff. they nearly always are referring to the stuff that comes out when they "cleanse." I always have to point out that's intestinal lining, and they are in fact just burning their digestive system
― turtles all the way down (mh), Wednesday, 18 August 2010 04:09 (fourteen years ago) link
I've always thought that the reason why the toxin theory has stayed so popular with the half-informed public is that it has a lot of simularities with the Christian sense of sin.
― Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 18 August 2010 04:13 (fourteen years ago) link