James Randi: fails to explain away Arigo, the surgeon with the rusty knife

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Ask about it on the forum, they'll tell you.

Super, Thursday, 4 November 2004 18:59 (nineteen years ago) link

I'm not THAT gullible. Not even for free gay porn!

Layna Andersen (Layna Andersen), Thursday, 4 November 2004 19:01 (nineteen years ago) link

I'm not THAT gullible. Not even for free gay porn!
You skeptics never want to do any research on your own. I suppose it is now up to me to provide you with free gay Randi porn or else all my claims are "false," right? Well, I'm not biting.

Super, Thursday, 4 November 2004 19:10 (nineteen years ago) link

heh. biting.

Orbit (Orbit), Thursday, 4 November 2004 20:19 (nineteen years ago) link

Randi runs away


In June 1999, a Mr Rico Kolodzey of Germany wrote to James Randi and challenged for the reputed $1 million prize. Mr Kolodzey is one of several thousand people who believe and claim that they can live on water alone, absorbing 'prana' or life energy from space around them.

Now this claim is, to say the least, extraordinary. It is perhaps even more extraordinary that an individual should offer to prove this claim by submitting himself to a controlled test.

The claim is one that most people would treat with great skepticism, and might well run a mile from. But James Randi is not most people -- he is the person who has publicly claimed that he has $1 million on offer to all comers who challenge him and are willing to submit to rigorous testing, as Mr Kolodzey has offered to do.

It should not be very difficult to arrange a test of Mr Kolodzey's claim. All that is needed is to lock him in a police cell, under CCTV observation, with only water to drink. If he experiences significant measurable weight loss, or asks for food, then his claim is false. If, on the other hand, he does somehow survive on water alone, then Randi is wrong, conventional science is wrong, and Mr Kolodzey has won $1 million.

It ought therefore to have been a very simple matter for Randi to offer to lock Mr Kolodzey up for a week or two. But that is not what Randi did. Instead he ignored Mr Kolodzey entirely. When Mr Kolodzey wrote again to Randi asking about his challenge, he received the following email from Randi (later confirmed with a hard copy):-

Date: 6/18/99 12:03 PM

Mr. Kolodzey:

Don't treat us like children. We only respond to responsible claims.

Are you actually claiming that you have not consumed any food products except water, since the end of 1998? If this is what you are saying, did you think for one moment that we would believe it?

If this is actually your claim, you're a liar and a fraud. We are not interested in pursuing this further, nor will we exchange correspondence with you on the matter.

Signed, James Randi.
(A hard-copy of this letter will be sent by post to you, today.)

James Randi Educational Foundation
201 S.E. 12th Street (Davie Blvd.)
Fort Lauderdale, FL 33316-1815


So, now we know exactly how much confidence can be placed in James Randi's "challenge" and exactly how Randi behaves when confronted by a real challenger, willing to submit to rigorous scientific testing of his claims.

Randi runs away.

youhaventboughtyourtickettoathens, Friday, 5 November 2004 05:08 (nineteen years ago) link

It seems to me like he just doesn't want to waste his time with an obvious kook. Presumably he's only interested in the ones which might conceivably float.

the music mole (colin s barrow), Friday, 5 November 2004 05:17 (nineteen years ago) link

Supie, this is from a review of "PSI Wars" I found online:

"It is an attempt to attain informed, balanced dialogue about the many controversies in the field, in this case concerning parapsychology. The editors struggled with how to deal with the parapsychology papers, which arise outside mainstream science. The decision was made to allow the parapsychologists to express the "standard view" of parapsychology. This would expose readers equally to parapsychologists' and skeptics' views of the field, letting them judge the merits of each side."

So, even if the editors of have, for fairness' sake, put articles by parapsychologists in the book, the fact that they're there doesn't automatically make them objective. Studies by non-parapsycholgists, ie. people who don't have a vested interest in the subject, usually reach different conclusions. Believe or not, credible scientists have made quite an effort to study claims regarding ESP and other such phenomena, and have come up with nothing. So it's not a case of sceptics dismissing these claims straight away without putting any thought to them.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Friday, 5 November 2004 08:14 (nineteen years ago) link

I seem to remember an Australian cult-leader woman called Ellen "Jasmuheen" Greve making similar claims. So, a TV network offered to test her in a similar way; the test didn't last a day before she demanded to be released.

It would be easier to write these people off as harmless kooks if it wasn't for the fact that several people have died trying to follow their lead.

From that link: "In 1983, most of the leadership of the cult in California resigned when Wiley Brooks, its 47-year-old leader, who claimed not to have eaten for 19 years, was caught sneaking into a hotel and ordering a chicken pie."

caitlin (caitlin), Friday, 5 November 2004 08:20 (nineteen years ago) link

Yes, to me this has always been the biggest problem with "alternative" medicine. If it would just involve aromatherapy and stuff like that which doesn't claim anything else than making you feel a bit better (and due to placebo effect, it does), it would be fine by me, let people waste their money on that if they want to. But because it also involves "healers" milking the hopes and the money of people who have real, serious illnesses, I've always found it objectionable. Every year I read news about diabetic children dying, when their parents have stopped giving them insulin shots and put them in an "alternative" treatment, and that just makes me sick! You can believe in anything you want to, but please don't let you children suffer or die because of that.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Friday, 5 November 2004 08:31 (nineteen years ago) link

Tuomas, have you read the book? No. So, why are you pretending you know what you're talking about?

Super, Friday, 5 November 2004 14:59 (nineteen years ago) link

Also, Tuomas, what is the empirical evidence for the placebo effect?

Super, Friday, 5 November 2004 15:04 (nineteen years ago) link

are you "joking" again?

Jaunty Alan (Alan), Friday, 5 November 2004 15:06 (nineteen years ago) link

Super's contributions are a marvellous alternative medicine cure for insomnia.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 5 November 2004 15:08 (nineteen years ago) link

Jaunty, no I'm asking. Sometimes something happens when nothing should at all and we call it the placebo effect. But, in PSI research when something happens where nothing should at all, we call it inconclusive.

Super, Friday, 5 November 2004 15:24 (nineteen years ago) link

Ned, I have to agree with this other guy-- you're fat and you follow C-man all over... whatever that means.

Super, Friday, 5 November 2004 15:25 (nineteen years ago) link

Nice try, dude. How's Essex?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 5 November 2004 15:27 (nineteen years ago) link

Idiot boy, you have to PROVE what you're trying to say. You can't, Arigo can't, and Mr Randi has no interest in trying to prove something that can't be proven. Your blinkers mean that talkking to you is pointless. Try other ideologies, please.

(you really think this is Calum? If so, then sort of props, as it's his most intellectually rigorous thread yet, albeit one where he can't actually conprehend anything other than a single, narrow-minded and almost-certainly-wrong approach)

Markelby (Mark C), Friday, 5 November 2004 15:31 (nineteen years ago) link

Essex? Is that in Europe?

Super, Friday, 5 November 2004 15:32 (nineteen years ago) link

Idiot boy, you have to prove the placebo effect.

Super, Friday, 5 November 2004 15:33 (nineteen years ago) link

Dude, I have to prove nothing, just like Randi. You're the one making the claim; you have to prove it! This is not complex stuff.

Markelby (Mark C), Friday, 5 November 2004 15:47 (nineteen years ago) link

Here's my proof: It's the placebo effect!

Super, Friday, 5 November 2004 15:51 (nineteen years ago) link

No, you seem to misunderstand. Proof happens when you present conclusive experimental data justified through application of accepted methodologies. When you do that, bring pie I'll listen.

(actually I don't know if I will because you're an insufferable buffoon and I don't want to talk to you)

Markelby (Mark C), Friday, 5 November 2004 15:54 (nineteen years ago) link

No, no, no. I don't need proof. Arigo healed by the placebo effect. Tantra works the same way. Thank you.

Super, Friday, 5 November 2004 15:55 (nineteen years ago) link

It could be argued such that Arigo is doing his thing, and it is the skeptics who are making the claim - a claim of falsehood. Saying 'you make the claim, you prove it' doesn't really help here.

Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Friday, 5 November 2004 16:07 (nineteen years ago) link

i really think you should read up about the placebo effect. there is a lot of interesting literature, and loads of empirical research into it. there's still a lot of speculation on the mechanisms involved, but the effect itself is very well documented and uncontroversial.

Jaunty Alan (Alan), Friday, 5 November 2004 16:12 (nineteen years ago) link

Jaunty, and HOW DOES IT WORK? What is the empirical evidence for the placebo effect? It is invisible aside from the result, correct?

The funny thing is nobody here has even looked at PSI research, let alone an actual research paper or experimental data on the topic and carefully analyzed it. And certainly nobody here has carefully analyzed all the experimental data as a whole.

There are a handful of books on the subject and the only one here mentioned is Psi Wars, which nobody has read obviously.

Super, Friday, 5 November 2004 16:16 (nineteen years ago) link

You are my favourite internet mentalist ever. Don't ever change.

Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 5 November 2004 16:17 (nineteen years ago) link

You are my favourite internet mentalist ever. Don't ever change.

My socks get smelly.

Super, Friday, 5 November 2004 16:19 (nineteen years ago) link

You've ruined it now.

Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 5 November 2004 16:22 (nineteen years ago) link

Am I at least 2nd place or did I shoot to the bottom of your list already?

Super, Friday, 5 November 2004 16:24 (nineteen years ago) link

http://www.bpib.com/illustrat/bauer4.jpg

Girolamo Savonarola, Friday, 5 November 2004 17:23 (nineteen years ago) link

http://www.bpib.com/illustrat/bauer6.jpg

Girolamo Savonarola, Friday, 5 November 2004 17:24 (nineteen years ago) link

http://www.bigredtoybox.com/articles/trolls.jpg

Girolamo Savonarola, Friday, 5 November 2004 17:24 (nineteen years ago) link

http://members.aol.com/kmo53153/trolls.jpg

Girolamo Savonarola, Friday, 5 November 2004 17:26 (nineteen years ago) link

http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/T-Shirts/cambridg/Trolls.jpg

Girolamo Savonarola, Friday, 5 November 2004 17:26 (nineteen years ago) link

http://www.bl0rg.net/trolls/wall005_640.jpg

Girolamo Savonarola, Friday, 5 November 2004 17:27 (nineteen years ago) link

http://ia.imdb.com/media/imdb/01/I/80/02/61m.jpg

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 5 November 2004 17:29 (nineteen years ago) link

http://www.genesbmx.com/trolls.jpg

Girolamo Savonarola, Friday, 5 November 2004 17:29 (nineteen years ago) link

http://toggle.jufu.org/covers/trolls.jpg

Girolamo Savonarola, Friday, 5 November 2004 17:30 (nineteen years ago) link

Ha, ha, Giro. I win! edited out - Super - don't ever do that - Alan

Super, Friday, 5 November 2004 17:33 (nineteen years ago) link

This question and issues that will never be addressed:

"Jaunty, and HOW DOES IT WORK? What is the empirical evidence for the placebo effect? It is invisible aside from the result, correct?

The funny thing is nobody here has even looked at PSI research, let alone an actual research paper or experimental data on the topic and carefully analyzed it. And certainly nobody here has carefully analyzed all the experimental data as a whole.

There are a handful of books on the subject and the only one here mentioned is Psi Wars, which nobody has read obviously."

Super, Friday, 5 November 2004 17:34 (nineteen years ago) link

http://home.student.uu.se/s/stmi8017/images1/troll.jpg

Girolamo Savonarola, Friday, 5 November 2004 17:41 (nineteen years ago) link

http://www.cit.gu.edu.au/~anthony/icons/large/troll.jpg

Girolamo Savonarola, Friday, 5 November 2004 17:41 (nineteen years ago) link

posting goatsecx type images isn't helping your "argument" any, super.

you should go away and read about the placebo effect.

Jaunty Alan (Alan), Friday, 5 November 2004 17:41 (nineteen years ago) link

Jaunty doesn't want to explain it because he knows he's just hit the hole in his argument.

Posting pics of trolls doesn't do say for Giro, either.

Super, Friday, 5 November 2004 17:48 (nineteen years ago) link


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