that thing white ppl do when they disparage 'white ppl'

Oh hey, I started a thread like this once a long time ago! Sure, I basically agree with the idea that it's a good thing for people to start seeing, like, American "whiteness" as a kind of culture, and not just some invisible default. But at least in my sphere, the way people disparage whiteness bugs me a little, for these reasons and more:

1. it's just viscerally annoying (to me, at least) to watch white people call each other so white, because at some point it's like "OMG YOU'RE BOTH WHITE, GET OVER IT"

2. I don't think it's often not about "white guilt" or "redneck humor," though those things are certainly there; in my area it feels closer to the way middle-class people pick on middle-classness, which is to say that people are basically calling one another boring and normal, and so complicated things about race are getting dragged into a conversation that's really just about suggesting "you're boring and predictable and I'm more interesting than you" -- it's implicating racial stuff just to call someone square, which is risky and can have bad effects

3. it's often based around this really narrow conception of "white" that basically does just mean bourgeois -- educated, affluent, NPR/PBS, whatever -- which (a) is really not an accurate picture of what whiteness might be in this country, and (b) on some level winds up being exclusionary and self-congratulatory, even if you think you're mocking it! especially because some of those qualities are ones that loads and loads of non-white people successfully aspire to, because things like education or safety or money aren't exactly cultural traits, they're pleasant things most people work toward having. I think most of the people who mock whiteness along these lines would have a really hard time talking to a non-white person who just got a scholarship at an Ivy and rolling their eyes about how "white" that was

4. and it does that thing Max quoted me on before, where if "white" means all that stuff, there's a little bit of a shadow where non-white people (and in the U.S. this tends to point to "black") must represent danger, vulgarity, etc. -- and of course even if you think that's a complimentary side to take, it's not exactly helping, you know? I mean, as far as the U.S. goes, I think that if anyone's gonna have any ideas about race/culture categories like "blackness" or "whiteness" or anything else, they should probably be really thoughtful about how they're putting the category together and why, and not just accidentally have them pop up in the course of making fun of your friend for wearing bad pants or something

5. the subtext of all those is that it's mostly talking about class stuff, not race stuff -- race is getting subbed in to mean social class -- and that seems slippery and bad to me. and also like a missed opportunity, because if you seriously wanted to talk about how whiteness works (or American whiteness, anyway), you could be saying all kinds of interesting cultural things that included the vast numbers of lower-middle-class and working-class white people who make up a huge chunk the population and what cultural continuities they do/don't have internally, or with upper-class white people, or whatever

those are some of many issues I have with it, though I agree that it's generally harmless and it doesn't really bug me until someone's being a dick about it (trying to deploy it as a really serious attack/criticism), or incredibly sloppy about it in an area they shouldn't (like talking seriously about race/class), or just doing it so much that it gets plain irritating.

(one other thing that particularly fascinates me is the number of social-class things labeled "white" that are totally full of middle-class east-Asians -- that there's already this huge thing in U.S. racial logic where the bourgeois/"stuff white people like" version of whiteness conveniently embraces all American-raised east Asians)

that covers most of my objections

if disparaging of 'white ppl' is intended to elucidate prejudices of the 'invisible default', it often fails because it dismally conflates class with race

if intended as cultural criticism it seldom amounts to more than narcissism of small differences among a small subset of 'white ppl'

3. it's often based around this really narrow conception of "white" that basically does just mean bourgeois

this is otm and one thing that bothers me a lot is that many problems in the u.s. stem from ignoring or minimizing the problems of poor white ppl, and subsequently blaming stuff on them and making fun of them

After long, hard thought, I have concluded that every racial category is so contaminated with racism that they are universally toxic to any kind of racial discourse. Therefore it is best just to pitch the concept of race overboard and deal as best you can with people, recognizing one's ignorance for what it is.

Btw, it doesn't matter if the speaker or writer is a highly considered intellectual, author, or scientist, or if the assertions are well-meant, or if they are backed by research data. The morass of past racism will distort whatever gets said, or at least a part of it -- unless the only thing that is being asserted is that no categorical claims about race can be possibly be true. Or, if the assertions are heavily qualified enough to pass for true, they will throw no light upon the subject, because the opposite assertion will be equally admissable.

You may differ with me on this. It is simply my own conclusion.

In that race is so tied to ethnicity and cultural identity, throwing out race as a concept like that brings up the specter of a default race/ethnicity/class again - never mind the difficulty of separating those things.

And the discussion, when people have it - let's say when intellectuals, report writers and policy makers have it, and not when ilx has it - becomes an impractical one to have. Like, in pitching the concept of race overboard, do we stop recording race statistics, and then not see the huge, disproportionate numbers of black people who end up in jail? It makes it difficult to see potentially or actually racially motivated legislation; it makes finding correctives difficult if they're ethnically or culturally specific (when ethnicity and culture are tied to race, which in this case they are).

btw was this thread started to disparage that other thread about fist bumping explosions

Fist bumping with explosions makes me giggle. I like all fist bump shenanigans. I'll fist bump if someone wants to, but it's not how I say hello or goodbye to my friends usually.

White people disparaging white people - some of it is of the "you're white, too, dude" variety. I'm kind of used to being disparaged as a white person - last ten years or so I've heard things like "you rich white kids" this and "you rich white kids" that on a pretty regular basis. Also how many people poohpooh this "lol you white" kind of speech here on ilx but say it to their friends in irl, not because "their friends understand," but because their friends really DO understand what they mean by it, and that further explanation isn't needed. Tipsy mothra made a point like this upthread, I think?

I want to post this here because it is fantastic. i dare you to disparage it:
http://cdn.static.ovimg.com/episode/362934.jpg

is that j0hn D?

X

whineys tweet is super aggravating

@Aimless: fyi when u recognize that a widespread concept is very problematic, there is usually a more productive dialectical solution than "pretend it doesn't exist and maybe it will go away"

that sounds harsher than I meant it to -- I think your heart's in the right place but your proposed situation is sort of idealistic

I still think, despite the gay point you make, Dan, that with most black youth (another generalization), there's an unhealthy societal pressure on them to be "black" as a means of fitting in and boosting self-confidence that's not as striking as pressures that average white kids face.

― bamcquern, Friday, April 23, 2010 12:25 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

the idea that there isnt pressure to 'be white' is ... insane. conformity is an lol hueg part of white culture as much as any other. theres constant signifying to indicate -- im not black btw!!! i wouldnt wear xyz or listen to xyz because im white, or if i do, its because its funny!! im not black so i cant take it seriously" -- its just another one of those invisible-nature-of-whiteness things

No offense taken, bernard.

The problem becomes that, the more you grab onto it, the more it entangles you. No matter how well meant the engagement or the positive end you are trying to reach for.

Choosing to disengage, to the extent it is even possible, is not a matter of pretending racism doesn't exist, so much as stopping pretending you can solve it by any deeper analysis than: it ain't true, and it ain't helpful, and it never was, and never could be.

This is NOT to say racism is not real, or it doesn't adversely affect people as individuals. It is and it does. Only that any conversations on race cannot be divided from deeply stupid racist conventions, and therefore must begin deeply mired in error.

also, reducing popular black culture to the pressure caused by oppression is one of the more problematic but basic assumptions of history that ppl have been rejecting for decades now. cf AGENCY

do we stop recording race statistics, and then not see the huge, disproportionate numbers of black people who end up in jail?

This seems like a reasonable gauge of racism and its effects, and therefore it has some value as a measure of the extent of the problem. What I can't get at is how this adds to our ability to solve the problem, other than to counter the claim that there is no problem. Once it takes you as far as recognizing that racism is still a big problem, it loses most of its leverage for positive good, afaics.

So, sure, you can keep those stats, but you shouldn't be under the misguided impression it accomplishes much beyond establishing our society distributes oppression based on senseless racial categories, and that this is senseless and should not continue. I mean, what else can you do with them?

Acknowledging that social pressures white and black exist is different from reducing popular culture to oppression, nor does it dismiss or put down popular black culture.

I would like, deej, to read some essays, chapters or books on this subject if you'd recommend them.

Not a universal thing among critics, but when black popular culture strongly reflects longstanding social problems in the US, e.g., socioeconomic disparity between races, and the black-white feedback loop, it's not uncommon for critics to sidestep those issues and to focus on works formalistically, or in a mostly formalist way that also acknowledges the culture of the business and the critical tenor happening. Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't pomo criticism in the last thirty years tended toward including feminist, marxist and other modes of criticism and away from criticism-as-closed-game-system?

Also, I distinguish between the agency of artists and business people and the agency of youth, particularly underage youth (but age is arbitrary). Like, youth ARE impressionable, right? Even if they can distinguish between fiction and reality? And it's not like 9th & 10th grade gangbangers in rough Chicago neighborhoods are listening to much besides rap & r&b that depicts blacks in ways that match up with the ugliest ways that whites stereotype them.

& re: agency: Agency is conventionally tied to voice, isn't it? That's what was talked about upthread - I mean, blacks not having the same privilege as whites to be uncool, to have traits that are not the antithesis of but not the same as qualities seen as "black" (streetwise, intuitive, primitive, rhythmic, sexy, dangerous, &c.). You say it's problematic, that one shouldn't deny blacks their agency, but TV's still stuffed with tokenism, ethnic stereotypes and blacks who are "black." Exceptions on TV have been Malcom, 30 Rock and others, but on TV this problem still dominates, right?

reducing popular black culture to the pressure caused by oppression is one of the more problematic but basic assumptions of history that ppl have been rejecting for decades now. cf AGENCY

That's almost like saying, "Well, black people prefer it that way."

& it's also equating mass media, commercial media, with black culture - not that it's not, exactly, but concessions and dilutions are definitely made due to the commercial drive, and the media is also often "blacked up" because that's what consumers, white and black, seem to want.

What is the TV show with 'Malcom'? All I can think of is

http://worldofhurtonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Malcolm-In-The-Middle.jpg

who always reminded me of a wheelchair bound, asthmatic Oliver Wendell Jones

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/1580/13lx4.jpg

Aimless: I don't think blacks and whites or "blacks" and "whites" have enough frank discussions together about race and ethnicity. I think there already is a tendency to want to be colorblind and to understand how "black" and "white" need be shown to be not particularly meaningful and unproductive terms, but that tendency has stifled discussion that blacks and whites have really needed to have with each other but haven't. Just looking at what I remember of my elementary education in the 80s and 90s I remember what we were taught about this stuff and the usual cant from classmates or teachers, and it definitely leaned toward the colorblind cant. If I talk to my white friends about this stuff, they get uncomfortable about it, but if I talk to - I don't want to say my black friends, because I don't talk to all of them about it, just to one - my black friend about it, it's interesting, productive, insightful and educational. That my white friends are so uncomfortable and feel racist for leaning toward any discussion that isn't the colorblind discussion, leads me to think that there's a lot lost and a lot of potential misunderstanding between races if those discussions don't take place.

Although these white friends live in a community more integrated than many, and have grown up with and have been friends with and have gone to (church) and school with working, middle, and upper-middle class blacks their whole lives. In Ft. Myers, though, which is barely integrated at all, I wonder that talking race to whites isn't virtually untouchable.

Yes, that Malcom. The black family in that show was distinguished by not being tokens completely free of ethnicity, they weren't "black," and they weren't used to make messages about Important Social Issues - to lampoon them, maybe. I think that social issues use is fading on TV, but tokenism and "black"-ness aren't.

This seems like a reasonable gauge of racism and its effects, and therefore it has some value as a measure of the extent of the problem. What I can't get at is how this adds to our ability to solve the problem, other than to counter the claim that there is no problem. Once it takes you as far as recognizing that racism is still a big problem, it loses most of its leverage for positive good, afaics.

So, sure, you can keep those stats, but you shouldn't be under the misguided impression it accomplishes much beyond establishing our society distributes oppression based on senseless racial categories, and that this is senseless and should not continue. I mean, what else can you do with them?

what part of this simple cause-and-effect equation don't you understand?

http://www.chicagobooth.edu/capideas/spring03/racialbias.html → http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action

my man zizek

_________________________

Daniel, Esq to thread? jk.

― Mordy, Friday, April 23, 2010

?

me and slavoj are buddies, it's true.

I think it's only Americans who do this.

that was my impression too

well, like, duh

anyway I think this thread is kinda funny because the original fist bump thread was not started by a white person iirc. regardless continue with your incisive observations everybody

http://shiralicious.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/fist-bump.jpg

xpost

what part of this simple cause-and-effect equation don't you understand?

If you think that enacting affirmative action was ever a "simple cause and effect equation", then you have no clue about the history of racism in the USA. There, I had to say that. :(

Moreover, there are plenty of practical, moral and ethical arguments for making poverty, especially multi-generational poverty, and not race, the primary basis of affirmative action. The self-perpetuating cycle of poverty, ignorance, malnutrition, hopelessness and social stigma is not confined to any one group, nor is it in society's best interest to limit or narrow their efforts to break that cycle.

Moreover, poverty provides a much more objective, measurable and practical criterion that doesn't get bogged down in the politics of race nearly so easily. Although, to be fair, a solely poverty-based program would be race-baited, too. Racism doesn't give up the ghost that quickly.

(offers fist bump)

"The self-perpetuating cycle of poverty, ignorance, malnutrition, hopelessness and social stigma is not confined to any one group, nor is it in society's best interest to limit or narrow their efforts to break that cycle."

there are people who believe that this is simply america working. that the endless problems are good for business. that they are a part of the business. if you never solve the problems then there is an endless stream of money being pumped into...everything. anywhere it can be pumped.

Aimless so infinitely OTM on that. Gotta fist bump.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poor_People%27s_Campaign

If you think that enacting affirmative action was ever a "simple cause and effect equation", then you have no clue about the history of racism in the USA. There, I had to say that. :(

you asked "what can you do with" the statistics used to understand the real-world relationship between demographics and discrimination. my answer to that question was to point to affirmative action as one such real-world solution. provided you don't find this particular corrective measure "misguided" or "senseless," whatever you even mean by that, can you at least explain how it's not pertinent to the history of racism in the USA?

or maybe you just meant that all discrimination is equally unfair? please say that, cause that's a much easier argument to settle

btw someone used statistics to show that if you use class instead of race to do affirmative action and stuff it won't work that good and racial inequality will get worse. i don't wanna look up a citation now i'm just saying it wouldn't be so magical as some ppl think. although easier to do, from a legal standpoint

right, and i would assume that's mostly due to the fact that it's much easier for someone from the lower classes to maybe borrow a suit and a nice pair of shoes for a job interview than it is for a minority to, you know, dye their skin and change their name.

well i was mostly thinking of college admissions, and race-conscious school desegregation, stuff that's not so much down to individual decision-makers but more systemic. but there is that too.

now playing:

http://www.jazz.com/assets/2008/4/4/albumcoverMoseAllison-MiddleClassWhiteBoy.jpg

Also, I distinguish between the agency of artists and business people and the agency of youth, particularly underage youth (but age is arbitrary). Like, youth ARE impressionable, right? Even if they can distinguish between fiction and reality? And it's not like 9th & 10th grade gangbangers in rough Chicago neighborhoods are listening to much besides rap & r&b that depicts blacks in ways that match up with the ugliest ways that whites stereotype them.

"reducing popular black culture to the pressure caused by oppression is one of the more problematic but basic assumptions of history that ppl have been rejecting for decades now. cf AGENCY"

That's almost like saying, "Well, black people prefer it that way."

if you use class instead of race to do affirmative action and stuff it won't work that good and racial inequality will get worse

This is a very interesting assertion, assuming it is broadly true. But then, it would require asking a hell of a lot of questions about the proper goals of affirmative action, if poor people getting better jobs, a better education and better lives could be defined as a failure of those goals.

Additionally, if helping all poor people equally created even more "racial inequality", it might possibly shed some light on why poor "white" people feel aggrieved by affirmative action that is solely racially-based.

If you just want to compensate "black" people for the multi-generational crime of slavery followed by a century of legalized oppression and the havoc that wrought, then maybe we should be talking about reparations instead. Me, I'd rather move in the direction of socialism and let social justice do the work of promoting racial justice.

maybe you just meant that all discrimination is equally unfair?

Not what I had in mind.

By binding false racial categories to the definition of the problem, so far from reducing racism, you perpetuate those categories and solidify them. Redefining the problem as a set of measurable harms which must be addressed by society and, to the extent possible, reversing them, allows you to decouple the solution from the crap that caused the problem, while still letting you focus on delivering a solution.

I guess what I am talking about is pretty radical compared to affirmative action. Not really gonna happen. But affirmative action based on race plants seeds of racism even as it seeks to destroy them.

well you said poverty and *not* race. should be both. also in a lot of cases it's not solely racially based, for example i went to a school where white males from appalachia were a big beneficiary of affirmative action. i wish that were advertised more.

But affirmative action based on race plants seeds of racism even as it seeks to destroy them.

please, please tell us how it does this so this thread can become that much more amazing!

i'll take that thing white ppl do when they disparage 'white ppl' over that thing white ppl do when they disparage 'the concept of race,' every time

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

wonder if martin luther king jr's dreams were planting secret racist dream seeds that were undermining his dreams as he dreamt them

seriously, you have to trust me on this one. this song is awesome:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jeq6dAvBSCI