Doctor Who 2008: Sontarans cometh, RTD Ood 'ave 'im etc.

Ideal Who Age Bracket seems to be about 30-45?

just like pop music eh

Actually I feel like I'm piling on Aldo a bit which I feel bad about but I don't really accept that any of this has made it 'worse' just 'different' and that's mostly because the kids want different things now. I'd also argue there's a degree of old-skool caricatured fans having huge emotional investment in Doctor Who and therefore magnifying every flaw in a way you wouldn't with something like Torchwood.

Also it helps that I had mentally prepared myself for this episode being enormous bombastic cobblers of the highest order and therefore I was able to overlook or forgive all of this and focus on the cool bits.

how satisfying is that really tho?

All right, I'll bite at being a weird shouty fanboy.

What I'll give Rusty credit for is that he has created an Event Television series, and events always get ratings. Not least part of this is his use of extant cultural signifiers (which is why I can't credit him with 'cultural success') to bring a slice of their childhood back to a viewing audience who wouldn't normally have watched such a thing. And that's why it's popular.

I just wish he hadn't done it with Doctor Who. Yes, because I'm a fanboy. Because NuWho is something totally different. It's FLASH BANG WOW LOOK AT THAT OOH THAT WAS GOOD WHAT'S NEXT compared to telling a story. I often tell the kids off for living their lives vicariously, always looking forward to what's coming next and never enjoying what's actually happening, and Rusty's Who is very much of this spirit - you have to spend the whole time wondering where it's going because if you stop for a minute and think where it actually is then it all falls apart. "The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing people he existed."

I'd be lying if I said there hadn't been some quite brilliant parts to his era - the stuff adapted from NAs particularly - but there's been a hell of a lot of shite. I've even come round to the Slitheen, you know.

i mean almost everyone is saying that the best bit of the episode is some Daleks talking German, which was amusing but surely only in a quite facile kneejerk way? i do often pick out some funny isolated moment as a highlight but on this occasion it just seems to indicate how lacking the story was for such an over-hyped epic finale.

Matt, I didn't think you were piling on, I'm just choosing my words badly. I agree totally with "different" but the "different" to me is "worse".

I genuinely think that SJA and Torchwood have been better than NuWho - maybe that's because they understand better what their audience is? - and SJA is probably the best of the three.

maybe that's because they understand better what their audience is?

SJA: kids (who like sci-fi)
Torchwood: 'dults (who like sci-fi)

Doctor Who: EVERYONE (who like sci-fi)...so you can see the bind they're in

i mean almost everyone is saying that the best bit of the episode is some Daleks talking German, which was amusing but surely only in a quite facile kneejerk way? i do often pick out some funny isolated moment as a highlight but on this occasion it just seems to indicate how lacking the story was for such an over-hyped epic finale.

This is OTM

I too entirely agree, blueski, about that detail and the reaction to it.

I imagine that kids who enjoy watching Dr Who are 'enjoying what's actually happening', at that time; probably more than I am.

That's a bit of a broadcasting truism though isn't it? The others have the luxury of being more focussed on one audience and can deliver that more closely.

Doctor Who is the sci-fi Radio One to Torchwood's 1Extra or whatever. It's the only one bang in the middle of Saturday prime time trying to appeal to everyone, that's kind of why the series wanders from week to week from genre to genre (ie the Sontaran Experiment one week and the totally different Unicorn & Wasp or Silence In The Library the next). This happens much more than it is given credit for.

FWIW I enjoyed every episode this season except for the Adipose and Jenny ones, I enjoyed most of them in different ways though.

expectations for The Doctor's Daughter weren't that high so it didn't feel like quite as much of a let down as this. for me that's 2 series ending on a high and 2 ending on a low. what a perfect time for a break.

This thread is moving fast, but I'd like to point out to pinefox that I'm a floating viewer too and I thought the 'romantic' ending was the worst shit ever.

Norwegian location of Bad Wolf Bay goes some way to explaining the ultimate Geirism of Grainer getting all the credits for writing the melody and sod the woman who actually made it, y'know, iconic recognisable Who theme. But anyway.

Not sure I get this - it was a contractual thing, I believe, something to do with Grainer and Derbyshire not working for the same companies. Perhaps original Who not BBC? And afaik Grainer himself wanted her to get credits.

Legally of course, Geir is right, the melody (and words if there are any) are the bits you have legal right to. Everything else is arrangement.

Maybe that ending wasn't so great. I mean, the whole thing isn't that great - it's hammy and silly and crowd-pleasing, though it can also have a kind of ingenuity and panache.

But I got the impression that those two characters liked each other a lot or were attracted to each other, and had been for a long time, and I also think they are both quite attractive really, and I always feel quite content to see two people I find attractive get together (it doesn't happen very often, in fiction let alone life). Maybe the fact that the Doc is not human etc militates vs all this? in which case there should, I suppose, never have been any hint at any point about any attraction or flirtation with humans, and I think there has been a lot (probably far too much) in these series.

either way they're all turning in their graves at Murray Gold's rubbish reworks

two people I find attractive get together (it doesn't happen very often, in fiction let alone life)

surely attractive people getting it together is most common thing in fiction (the happy ending love story) ever

and then he asked me would I yes to say yes my mountain flower and first I put my arms around him yes and drew him down Jo me so he could feel my breasts all perfume yes and his heart was going like mad and yes I said yes I will Yes

Well, that is a flashback to about 1888. The event is remembered but doesn't happen in the real time of 16.6.1904. Not that this is a CONTINUITY ERROR.

Is this an appealing ending to the book? I think it is, on the whole, though not for the reasons I gave above re Dr Who.

Molly Bloom is widely considered attractive. Leopold Bloom considers himself fairly unattractive, and lucky to have her, but she actually recalls thinking him attractive when they first met.

Blueski, yes, love stories are common, but I don't usually find both parties or partners equally attractive.

when Mickey hugged Jackie i thought it was because they were now an item

Okay, been trying to relocate what happened with the Derbyshire/Grainer thing, as yes, Who was always BBC. Derbyshire as part of the Radiophonic Workshop was essentially an anonymous library musician - Grainer can't have been tied to the BBC as he did the theme for the Prisoner, and so must have been working as a name freelance composer. Yes, she *should* have got credits, as she transformed the theme, but it doesn't really have anything to do with melody vs 'arrangement' and that sort of Geirism. It has more to do with the internal structure of the corporation.

Also, I totally thought 'ewww, they're shagging' about that Mickey/Jackie conversation - is there no reference to this in other episodes?

don't think so. i like both characters but was really annoyed by their presence and inclusion in this. the fact that they just so happened to teleprt to where sarah jane was about to be exterminated etc. come ahhhhhhnnnn...

I'll admit that my main reaction to those characters was "who the fuck are Mickey and, Jackie is it?"

damn noobs

Think the main point of bringing Mickey back was a set-up for Torchwood or whatever happens next. Jackie was 100% pointless though.

TBH the only ones I really want to see again in Who are Jack and Sarah-Jane. Jack seems too popular not to bring back, especially since Moffatt had a big hand in creating him.

the story i heard somewhere re Grainer and Derbyshire. having heard the finished piece he asked 'did i really write that?' and she said 'most of it'

http://www.nndb.com/people/685/000099388/

and this from mark ayres:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Mark_Ayres/DWTheme.htm#Original

"Delia Derbyshire recalls that Ron Grainer was delighted with the result and, realising that the music worked perfectly well as it stood, abandoned his original plan of overdubbing a small instrumental ensemble (as in Giants of Steam). Recognising Delia's immense contribution, he also suggested splitting his performance royalty income with her, but BBC bureaucracy meant that this was not possible."

"Doctor Who: Proms Cutaway" is a "mini-episode" of the British science fiction television series Doctor Who. It is due to be broadcast alongside the Doctor Who prom on 27 July 2008.[1]

According to Russell T. Davies, the action will take place on the TARDIS and will feature a "special returning guest star."

sounds a lot like the children in need minisode.

yep. kudos on 'minisode' tho.

Well, I don't know what to say. I'm not TOO worried about the continuity thing; it all falls apart, anyway, with the "destroying the Daleks throughout all time" thing. I mean, you can excuse anything with that device.

I found the episode a mess. Was particularly disappointed with the regeneration. I laughed out loud at the gall of it, and not in support. It pulled the rug out from under all the rabid theorists, I suppose.

I believe it's mainly crash-bang-wallop these days because most stories are done in one episode. There's not the pacing of Old-Who. Best bit of pacing has been Utopia, building to the most exciting 15 minutes of television ever (probably).

the problem with slowing the pace is the rubbishness of most cliffhanger scenarios...tho you could argue that with such a loyal audience exciting cliffhangers for multi-part episodes wouldn't actually be necessary.

But in the old days, even though you knew the Doc was never going to die, you always bought the peril of the cliffhanger.

I'm not advocating a slowing of pace, mind you, I'm just considering the price.

I was talking with a friend over the weekend about how nu-Who would be so much more fun without the twee love nonsense; the writers seem to lean way too heavily on it, making their stories come across like they all want to bone the Doctor into oblivion. It's one of those things where using it as an initial motif for one companion was fine, particularly when it was unrequited, but then continuing to hammer you over the head with it with almost every companion who crosses the Doctor's path starts to come across as lazy fanwank.

Which, coincidentally, is all Martha is left with.

at least that was a reasonable result of making the Doctor 'hott' - this seems like something difficult to move away from now. xp

x-post: I agree, it is very bad for everyone to be supposedly after the Doc. One pairing-off is quite enough.

This is the 14th or 400th reiteration or whatever, but it definitely had the "give the audience everything they want!" feel to it. I was definitely cringing during parts of it.

People say this series is more like Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel than the old Doctor Who, and I agree to a point. But I do remember Buffy/Angel had these storyline episodes and then random throwaway episodes for fun/filler ... just feels like all of Doctor Who is just those filler ones except the last few episodes where everything kind-of falls into place for 10 minutes. I mean, it's entertaining and all. Also I blame my ex for putting me through every single episode of Buffy/Angel in existence so that I know this.

Yeah, the lovey dovey nonsense is total barfo. Total audience indulgence.

I think the "twee, love nonsense" has only worked well once, in the Silence in the Library(and whatever the second part was called) two parter. And in this case because it had been inextricably linked with the mechanics of time travel and therefore the very particular problem the Doctor has with meeting people for the first time who have already met him.

In this case inference might appear to be that the sole reason the Doctor takes up with River Song is that he knows that he's partially responsible for her death (or whatever) and is only be working to keep his personal timeline in order; rather than from any sense of emotional attachment. Which to my mind would totally invalidate the surface twee- ness of the romance and would also make the Doctor appear to be rather more of a manipulative bastard than either Moffat or Rusty would like to have us think.

I would have thought the anti-emo faction would be appeased by Catherine Tate's total lack of romantic interest in the Doctor.

Yeah WTF is up with this 'every character fancies the Doctor' thing when Donna so clearly didn't. Although I'm a bit more bothered by "this amazing, amazing man" cobblers these days, it's like yeah we get it now.

Human Nature/Family of Blood and the Girl in the Fireplace did the twee love nonsense thing much better than Rusty has in any of his stories. I'm not opposed to it on principle, but he seems to think emotional = gushing and cloying.

I quite like the Rusty gambit of having all his human characters constantly phoning up their relatives/loved ones in the middle of giant space battles and being like "I'm OK, just hold tight, I'll see you soon!"

I don't like that.

But that's how people would be, wouldn't it?

No. They would be desperate and practically speechless perhaps?

It's one of my least favourite things, the way the Earth people always barge back in with this bathos re. 'you may have just saved the universe, but now you've got to do the washing up'. Uh-uh.

I suppose that's very English. "Don't get above your station, young lady. You're still one of US you know!"

no it's rubbish

I don't know, I like how peoples' personal lives interweave with this parallel crazy space life they lead.

it was good in Time Bandits

(xxxp) It *was* refreshing that Donna didn't fancy the doctor, but the writers then felt the need to point out every five minutes that she definitely definitely didn't fancy him, which was almost as irritating.