abortion classic or dud?

???? i kinda thought you were on that train too, seems like an argument pretty analogous w/ ur suspicion of women-hating-women who r gung-ho abt pro-life as a way for slutty girls to get whats coming to them

― plax (ico), Thursday, April 8, 2010 8:14 PM (13 minutes ago)

haha i am i mean you just alwys know about this stuff so i thought you were already on the train

the women-hating-women thing isn't me though i always get accused of woman-hating it seems bc i hate everyone

i mean the majority of my support for abortions4all comes from wariness of ppl trying to control bodies meaning both what's in your body and what you're doing with it, ie, sex

nah meant u were disapproving of women-haterz

abortion is such a high profile issue in this country (where it is still illegal fyi) that it just seems like it is important to have an opinion sometimes, its not something i'm really reasoned abt or educated on, (tho im hoping to change that u no?) always remember me and my friend 4lici4 (aged like 14) lecturing these fuckers called y0uth defence that do pro-life rallies around ireland about the right to choose on shop street on our lunch breaks

which is weird, cos i really had no idea what i was talking abt and even then i was pretty non-confrontational in gen.

wait what? abortion's illegal in the UK?!??

ireland?

yeah

like, you just go to manchester for the wknd in reality, its a really irish way of dealing w/ it, we kindof export the dirty work. If it wasn't so easy to get an abortion (provided you are middle class at least) then we prolly would have legalised it by now but instead we get to preserve our facade of piety in this regard @ least while girls just hop on a ryanair and sign a fake name at the clinic.

it's legal here but as you may have heard people still have a world of trouble in most areas

when it's illegal, why are anti-abortionists complaining? are they complaining about the ryanair abortion junkets?

its a really irish way of dealing w/ it, we kindof export the dirty work.
as someone who was raised by irish catholic women this makes me lol

in a its funny cause its true kind of lol

i mean if you live in say mississippi it's probably as difficult for a low-income person to get one as it is in ireland xxpost

if that's true then that is fucked up

for me what's interesting is the weird play between class-structured necessities (i know quite a few girls who've had abortions in england) and that gross hypocritical symbolism, that is, people on low-incomes/social welfare are sacrificed their abortion rights, which in a way are not denied to their richer counterparts, in order to maintain a facade for everyone. I feel like (although this could just be my own prejudice so like) there is way less stigma attached to abortions among the middle-classes for this very reason.

The facade doesn't seem to be very convincing if there's pro-life rallies going on.

whats really weird is that y0uth defence have been around for a hella long time while "public opinion" has been pretty supportive of the abortion ban for that time.

i mean if you live in say mississippi it's probably as difficult for a low-income person to get one as it is in ireland xxpost

― harbl, Thursday, April 8, 2010 8:46 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

if that's true then that is fucked up

This happens a lot. South Dakota (I think it's SD) has only one abortion clinic in the whole state and a 24 hour waiting period law. Situations where a woman has to travel hours to get there and can only take one day off work or has difficulty arranging childcare for her existing children or any other number of situations can make attaining an abortion really fucking difficult. It's not just SD either. MA only has 5 abortion clinics in the whole state (last time I checked).

Sort of an aside but I'm taking one of the girls on my caseload to get an abortion next Friday. A month ago I took another girl on my caseload to do the same. They're both pregnant by the same gangbanging asshole who beats them up and fucks around and is a complete piece of shit in countless other ways. I realize that they are also responsible for preventing unwanted pregnancies and believe me we've had several discussions about it - they both agreed to get Depo immediately after the procedures - but I hate that dude so much. I wish I could take him along and get him neutered or something next week. /rant

"can make attaining an abortion" errrr "obtaining" obv

i mean if you live in say mississippi it's probably as difficult for a low-income person to get one as it is in ireland xxpost

― harbl, Thursday, April 8, 2010 8:46 PM (1 hour ago)

This is very true. I run an abortion fund in the south & we often hear about and speak with poor women who were forced into parenthood solely because they couldn't afford the abortion procedure. Other roadblocks set up by right wing assholes to make abortions increasingly difficult for women to obtain are also numerous. Waiting periods, parental consent laws, judicial bypass process can be just as much of a hurdle to cross as the financial problem. Sucks.

Fortunately the girls I work with are almost all on MA state funded health insurance program which covers the procedure in full.

http://charlespaolino.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/mittromney.jpg

ENBB you are my hero for the work you do btw just so you know.

^

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w219/mwellenstein/Win/48px-Face-blushsvg.png

Aw man, that is exceptionally sweet. Thank you.

When I worked at a clinic in Boulder, we'd see a lot of women from western SD. About the same distance as Sioux Falls, with no 24h wait.

I've been volunteering at the local Boys & Girls Club and yr stories occasionally pass through my head when I'm working with the kids. Most of them are a lot younger, mind you, but the personalities are definitely remind me of ENBB's stories.

I would be interested in knowing a bit more about the situations people tend to be in when choosing abortions - there is this implicit pro-life argument that it's people callously choosing sexual pleasure/unprotected or risky sex over the life of a foetus but I really can't imagine that's the case in the majority of circumstances? Like even if the condom split or something wouldn't most people take the morning after pill? Am I naive about kids' sexual education or opportunities to access morning-after pill/contraceptives? Or are a large proportion of women getting abortions victims of rape or pressured sex?

They vary. I've worked in 3 ab. clinics in 3 different states, and I've heard everything. Most have used birth control and got pregnant due to bc failure or using it incorrectly. Lotsa teenagers were using the method we liked to call "magical thinking". Most chose abortion because they weren't ready to be parents or weren't ready to be parents again.

Why Accidents (The Pregnant Kind) Happen

here in hong kong, there seems to be a pretty wide belief that taking birth control pills will affect your ability to get pregnant later in life/will cause damage to your future baby

xpost Yes, many women don't realize for example that diarrea neutralizes (?) the effect of the pill. I took a morning after pill just to make sure recently but many neglect to do so. If I hadn't taken it, fallen pregnant, I'm not sure what I would do. I encourage abortion if you do not want to have a baby, but from a personal standpoint I am not sure whether I would be able to go through with it. I have no reason (financial,..) to have an abortion. But otoh I wanted two kids, not three. Hopefully I never have to make that painful decision.

Dyao, yes, I think even in Japan they strongly believe that the pill is not good for you.

I would be interested in knowing a bit more about the situations people tend to be in when choosing abortions - there is this implicit pro-life argument that it's people callously choosing sexual pleasure/unprotected or risky sex over the life of a foetus but I really can't imagine that's the case in the majority of circumstances? Like even if the condom split or something wouldn't most people take the morning after pill? Am I naive about kids' sexual education or opportunities to access morning-after pill/contraceptives? Or are a large proportion of women getting abortions victims of rape or pressured sex?

― Not the real Village People, Friday, April 9, 2010 1:02 AM (5 hours ago) Bookmark

This is really an impossible question to answer although Kate did a good job. Most of the girls I work with know how conception works and how to prevent pregnancy but they have this mentality of "it's not going to happen to me". There are also tons of myths and fears floating around about birth control and how it will effect you. Also, many girls just get given the pill even though for a number of reasons they aren't able to remember to take a pill consistently. Another factor that plays a role in birth control usage and that cannot be underestimated is drugs/alcohol usage. I hear "I use condoms" all the time when I know damn well that these kids are getting high/drunk so often that there is no way they're enforcing condom usage each and every time they have sex.

Of the two girls I mentioned one of them already has two children and this was her fourth abortion. The other is a mother of one and has had at least one other abortion that I know of. They both live in situations of poverty and violence, are very young, are trauma survivors and have some mental health issues going on. All of these factors effect their decision making/reasoning abilities in some way when it comes to pregnancy prevention. Man, I could keep going on this one for a while. It really is just incredibly complex and varies so much from person to person etc.

ENBB you are my hero for the work you do btw just so you know.

― Twink Will Ferrell (J0hn D.), Thursday, April 8, 2010 10:07 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

great job, mushroom head

^^^

uh xpost

All of these factors effect their decision making/reasoning abilities in some way when it comes to pregnancy prevention. Man, I could keep going on this one for a while. It really is just incredibly complex and varies so much from person to person etc.

am v much enjoying this thread; sometimes i think that when there's only a limited part of the ideological spectrum participating in debate - ie no frothing pro lifers are present - then we can just tear each other apart challenging minute parts of one anothers views while basically agreeing. but i am learning a lot following.

the best thing i ever heard re: deterrence, reluctance and failure to use contraceptives was in a discussion on multiple abortions, seen as a point at which the understanding of some pro-life people can wane: just, "it is very easy to become pregnant", for a million reasons and irrespective of someone's personal history.

Like even if the condom split or something wouldn't most people take the morning after pill? Am I naive about kids' sexual education or opportunities to access morning-after pill/contraceptives? Or are a large proportion of women getting abortions victims of rape or pressured sex?

― Not the real Village People, Friday, April 9, 2010 5:02 AM

This would be a fine theory if money was just not an issue for anyone. The morning after pill is not free and therefore not accessible to poor women who have trouble coming up with $40. It is also not carried at MOST pharmacies in the South and therefore not accessible to women in many counties. It is also not spoken of in sex ed classes in schools, and therefore MANY young girls have no idea what that even is or think that the abortion pill and morning after pill are the same thing.

Having been a director of a clinic and also a director of an abortion fund, it has been my experience that women have abortions for a variety of reasons: abusive relationships, mistakes when drinking, change in financial situation, lack of education/not taking birth control correctly, etc.

We had many girls who were on Depo Provera - and we had given them the shot- and it failed. You are never protected completely and you never know when your hormonal birth control has failed, until you get pregnant.

That's why I had mine.

Depo FAIL.

there's got to be a morning after

For what it's worth, from a male perspective, I think that lack of education is an issue across the board. That NPR article referencing that you really need to have a plan to not get pregnant is very true, but neglects to mention that you really need both people in on the same plan or there's another level of risk. Having one partner educated sometimes doesn't work when they're dragged down by another person who's an idiot about contraception.

God I keep forgetting how much money is an issue here in the US. At home, birth control pills are free, I don't have to go to the doctor or pharmacy every month to get them, I can get like a year's supply at a time. Morning after pill is nothing like $40. You can go to a clinic and get free condoms. It's like they actually want to help me not get pregnant if I don't want to.

Here in the US I actually received a card from my healthcare insurance co about the joys of the pregnancy service they provide, pics of smiley babies. I mean wtf.

Well, some people actually want babies.

I wouldn't actually call it classic.
but it's better than having a 10 year old to look after, which is what I'd be doing right now.

I hear "I use condoms"
Erica, my years in the biz have taught me that the most important follow-up question to this statement is "what percentage of the time do you use condoms?" It's never 100% and you can make a much more realistic bc plan with this knowledge.

Insurance companies in the US started doing more promotion of their pregnancy-related services due to the fact getting women to actually go to prenatal care makes it less likely that an unforeseen (and expensive) situation will pop up later. Also, it's part of the whole "don't fuck up your body, women of child-rearing age, because if you do and then get pregnant, we might have to pay out to help your messed-up kid."

OK, maybe it is not as bad as all that, but it sounds like something they'd think.

no it's pretty much as bad as all that

oh yeah, we used condoms, but god know's how it happened.

xps ha, no I know, they send me random stuff from time to time, but it was just the timing of it - as I was moaning about how annoying it was to go get the pill every month and also PAY for it, like are they trying to make me get pregnant? Also my mum dropping hints about how she was my age when she had me. Then smiley baby picture arrives saying HAVING A BABY? ARE YOU ALREADY PREGNANT??