Doctor Who 2008: Sontarans cometh, RTD Ood 'ave 'im etc.

No, he's all Time Lord. Initially he was the half-human from the TV Movie but that formally changed midway through the last series. In an interview Phil Collinson gave to somebody, he said Rusty told him to change it.

who'd have thought scifi nerds would be so upset about continuity issues?

the rather good job Davies has done in making Dr Who exciting and fun and stuff.

He's gone so over the top, though, that it ends up taking away all the excitement. Huge dramatic cliffhangers... that are resolved within seconds in the next episode. Making something Permanent And Forever Throughout All The Dimensions - until he changes his mind in the series-after-next.

I was really, really hoping that something good and exciting would happen with the cliffhanger "regeneration", but at the back of my mind I knew that there would somehow be an easy way out of it, because that's what's nearly always happened before. And, look, it happened again.

Surprised we didn't hear about naked new-half-Doctor's anatomy from Donna, whether it was unexpected or not. (Wasn't original Tennant regeneration fully clothed? Why not now?)

I seem to have forgotten large chunks of the previous two episodes, as I'm not quite sure whether Donna was still Donna-who-hadn't-been-travelling-with-the-Doctor or instantly transformed back into this-universe-Donna as soon as the timeline was fixed by turning left, or if something else happened in the penultimate episode to explain.

Norwegian location of Bad Wolf Bay goes some way to explaining the ultimate Geirism of Grainer getting all the credits for writing the melody and sod the woman who actually made it, y'know, iconic recognisable Who theme. But anyway.

Surprised we didn't hear about naked new-half-Doctor's anatomy from Donna, whether it was unexpected or not. (Wasn't original Tennant regeneration fully clothed? Why not now?)

Doc normally regenerates in his clothes. this time he grew from a hand.

When Eccleston regenerated into Tennant, he was already dressed to start with; the body changed inside the clothes. When new-half-Doctor appeared, he appeared fresh and from scratch; there weren't any clothes because there hadn't been anybody there beforehand. Makes sense if you ask me.

xpost: what Ed said.

The thing is, it's personalised because Rusty's made it that way. There actually is a memo he wrote which states it must be referred to in print as "Russell T Davies' Doctor Who" - he even inserted "Award winning" to the clause at one point. Think about that. "Russell T Davies' Award Winning Doctor Who".

'exciting and fun and stuff' has come at the expense of being less special, less thoughtful and irrelevant. For every minute that might make it stronger, there's fifteen that makes it weaker.

my young cousins etc who are ALL obsessed with who, walls covered in posters, yr archetypal 8yr old boy, are all equally vexed about the time continuity stuff.

NO THEY ARE NOT. I LIED.

He's gone so over the top, though, that it ends up taking away all the excitement.

Not for me, or (by the look of the viewing figures) for most, or even (by the look of some of the excitement on here leading up to Saturday, or by the number of people shouting "NO SPOILERS!" at me at Poptimism on Saturday night) for most on here. I mean, plenty of excitement generated. I understand the fan's frustration at non-perfection as well as the next fan, but the vitriol seems out of all proportion to the actual problem(s).

I don't agree that these series have been less special, thoughtful or relevant than McCoy-era Dr Who, but I am entirely prepared to accept that that may be a function of my own personal circumstances.

Is it actually less thoughtful though? Most of the old-Who I've watched (mostly Hartnoll and T. Baker) does not strike me as being especially thoughtful, unless 'thoughtful' means 'the Doctor looks more professorial and it's all a bit slower'.

Norwegian location of Bad Wolf Bay goes some way to explaining the ultimate Geirism of Grainer getting all the credits for writing the melody and sod the woman who actually made it

^^^^
Beacon of sanity amid the waves of mentalism!

'personal circumstances'

you fearful Jesuit

The Appreciation Index for the programme was once more 91. It is virtually unprecedented that the most-watched programme of the week should also score one of the highest appreciation figures, for mainstream television, in broadcasting history.

How do the deeply, deeply wierd passionate caps-lock-shouty fanboys like to spin the growing ratings and undeniable cultural success of the show now that Rusty has ruined it for ever and ever?

Stevie, I am not totally sure how to take that beacon, though I liked the Geirism reference too. It just struck me, do you think TFW & JC argue about these time-continuity issues? I have never noticed them doing so, only talking about the relative excellence of different series.

"Now ITV is showing Midsomer Murders at 4pm, with wives getting their head stoved in, what hope is there for children's programmes on the BBC?" he wonders. "It is terrifying."

RTD OTM (from that guardian article/interview)

I was in the Ideal Who Age Bracket during the McCoy years, back when the production team was trying to make the whole thing darker and more mysterious, and when it seems to have been actively fan-driven. And, I have to say, either the plots made no sense to me at all or went completely over my head. "Remembrance Of The Daleks", as far as I was concerned at the time, was about the Daleks having a civil war.

The big thing I remember, though, about Remembrance of the Daleks was that I realised the villain unmasked at the end was apparently important. I had absolutely no idea, though, how or why he was supposed to be important.

Ideal Who Age Bracket seems to be about 30-45?

just like pop music eh

Actually I feel like I'm piling on Aldo a bit which I feel bad about but I don't really accept that any of this has made it 'worse' just 'different' and that's mostly because the kids want different things now. I'd also argue there's a degree of old-skool caricatured fans having huge emotional investment in Doctor Who and therefore magnifying every flaw in a way you wouldn't with something like Torchwood.

Also it helps that I had mentally prepared myself for this episode being enormous bombastic cobblers of the highest order and therefore I was able to overlook or forgive all of this and focus on the cool bits.

how satisfying is that really tho?

All right, I'll bite at being a weird shouty fanboy.

What I'll give Rusty credit for is that he has created an Event Television series, and events always get ratings. Not least part of this is his use of extant cultural signifiers (which is why I can't credit him with 'cultural success') to bring a slice of their childhood back to a viewing audience who wouldn't normally have watched such a thing. And that's why it's popular.

I just wish he hadn't done it with Doctor Who. Yes, because I'm a fanboy. Because NuWho is something totally different. It's FLASH BANG WOW LOOK AT THAT OOH THAT WAS GOOD WHAT'S NEXT compared to telling a story. I often tell the kids off for living their lives vicariously, always looking forward to what's coming next and never enjoying what's actually happening, and Rusty's Who is very much of this spirit - you have to spend the whole time wondering where it's going because if you stop for a minute and think where it actually is then it all falls apart. "The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing people he existed."

I'd be lying if I said there hadn't been some quite brilliant parts to his era - the stuff adapted from NAs particularly - but there's been a hell of a lot of shite. I've even come round to the Slitheen, you know.

i mean almost everyone is saying that the best bit of the episode is some Daleks talking German, which was amusing but surely only in a quite facile kneejerk way? i do often pick out some funny isolated moment as a highlight but on this occasion it just seems to indicate how lacking the story was for such an over-hyped epic finale.

Matt, I didn't think you were piling on, I'm just choosing my words badly. I agree totally with "different" but the "different" to me is "worse".

I genuinely think that SJA and Torchwood have been better than NuWho - maybe that's because they understand better what their audience is? - and SJA is probably the best of the three.

maybe that's because they understand better what their audience is?

SJA: kids (who like sci-fi)
Torchwood: 'dults (who like sci-fi)

Doctor Who: EVERYONE (who like sci-fi)...so you can see the bind they're in

i mean almost everyone is saying that the best bit of the episode is some Daleks talking German, which was amusing but surely only in a quite facile kneejerk way? i do often pick out some funny isolated moment as a highlight but on this occasion it just seems to indicate how lacking the story was for such an over-hyped epic finale.

This is OTM

I too entirely agree, blueski, about that detail and the reaction to it.

I imagine that kids who enjoy watching Dr Who are 'enjoying what's actually happening', at that time; probably more than I am.

That's a bit of a broadcasting truism though isn't it? The others have the luxury of being more focussed on one audience and can deliver that more closely.

Doctor Who is the sci-fi Radio One to Torchwood's 1Extra or whatever. It's the only one bang in the middle of Saturday prime time trying to appeal to everyone, that's kind of why the series wanders from week to week from genre to genre (ie the Sontaran Experiment one week and the totally different Unicorn & Wasp or Silence In The Library the next). This happens much more than it is given credit for.

FWIW I enjoyed every episode this season except for the Adipose and Jenny ones, I enjoyed most of them in different ways though.

expectations for The Doctor's Daughter weren't that high so it didn't feel like quite as much of a let down as this. for me that's 2 series ending on a high and 2 ending on a low. what a perfect time for a break.

This thread is moving fast, but I'd like to point out to pinefox that I'm a floating viewer too and I thought the 'romantic' ending was the worst shit ever.

Norwegian location of Bad Wolf Bay goes some way to explaining the ultimate Geirism of Grainer getting all the credits for writing the melody and sod the woman who actually made it, y'know, iconic recognisable Who theme. But anyway.

Not sure I get this - it was a contractual thing, I believe, something to do with Grainer and Derbyshire not working for the same companies. Perhaps original Who not BBC? And afaik Grainer himself wanted her to get credits.

Legally of course, Geir is right, the melody (and words if there are any) are the bits you have legal right to. Everything else is arrangement.

Maybe that ending wasn't so great. I mean, the whole thing isn't that great - it's hammy and silly and crowd-pleasing, though it can also have a kind of ingenuity and panache.

But I got the impression that those two characters liked each other a lot or were attracted to each other, and had been for a long time, and I also think they are both quite attractive really, and I always feel quite content to see two people I find attractive get together (it doesn't happen very often, in fiction let alone life). Maybe the fact that the Doc is not human etc militates vs all this? in which case there should, I suppose, never have been any hint at any point about any attraction or flirtation with humans, and I think there has been a lot (probably far too much) in these series.

either way they're all turning in their graves at Murray Gold's rubbish reworks

two people I find attractive get together (it doesn't happen very often, in fiction let alone life)

surely attractive people getting it together is most common thing in fiction (the happy ending love story) ever

and then he asked me would I yes to say yes my mountain flower and first I put my arms around him yes and drew him down Jo me so he could feel my breasts all perfume yes and his heart was going like mad and yes I said yes I will Yes

Well, that is a flashback to about 1888. The event is remembered but doesn't happen in the real time of 16.6.1904. Not that this is a CONTINUITY ERROR.

Is this an appealing ending to the book? I think it is, on the whole, though not for the reasons I gave above re Dr Who.

Molly Bloom is widely considered attractive. Leopold Bloom considers himself fairly unattractive, and lucky to have her, but she actually recalls thinking him attractive when they first met.

Blueski, yes, love stories are common, but I don't usually find both parties or partners equally attractive.

when Mickey hugged Jackie i thought it was because they were now an item

Okay, been trying to relocate what happened with the Derbyshire/Grainer thing, as yes, Who was always BBC. Derbyshire as part of the Radiophonic Workshop was essentially an anonymous library musician - Grainer can't have been tied to the BBC as he did the theme for the Prisoner, and so must have been working as a name freelance composer. Yes, she *should* have got credits, as she transformed the theme, but it doesn't really have anything to do with melody vs 'arrangement' and that sort of Geirism. It has more to do with the internal structure of the corporation.

Also, I totally thought 'ewww, they're shagging' about that Mickey/Jackie conversation - is there no reference to this in other episodes?

don't think so. i like both characters but was really annoyed by their presence and inclusion in this. the fact that they just so happened to teleprt to where sarah jane was about to be exterminated etc. come ahhhhhhnnnn...

I'll admit that my main reaction to those characters was "who the fuck are Mickey and, Jackie is it?"

damn noobs

Think the main point of bringing Mickey back was a set-up for Torchwood or whatever happens next. Jackie was 100% pointless though.

TBH the only ones I really want to see again in Who are Jack and Sarah-Jane. Jack seems too popular not to bring back, especially since Moffatt had a big hand in creating him.

the story i heard somewhere re Grainer and Derbyshire. having heard the finished piece he asked 'did i really write that?' and she said 'most of it'

http://www.nndb.com/people/685/000099388/

and this from mark ayres:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Mark_Ayres/DWTheme.htm#Original

"Delia Derbyshire recalls that Ron Grainer was delighted with the result and, realising that the music worked perfectly well as it stood, abandoned his original plan of overdubbing a small instrumental ensemble (as in Giants of Steam). Recognising Delia's immense contribution, he also suggested splitting his performance royalty income with her, but BBC bureaucracy meant that this was not possible."

"Doctor Who: Proms Cutaway" is a "mini-episode" of the British science fiction television series Doctor Who. It is due to be broadcast alongside the Doctor Who prom on 27 July 2008.[1]

According to Russell T. Davies, the action will take place on the TARDIS and will feature a "special returning guest star."

sounds a lot like the children in need minisode.

yep. kudos on 'minisode' tho.

Well, I don't know what to say. I'm not TOO worried about the continuity thing; it all falls apart, anyway, with the "destroying the Daleks throughout all time" thing. I mean, you can excuse anything with that device.

I found the episode a mess. Was particularly disappointed with the regeneration. I laughed out loud at the gall of it, and not in support. It pulled the rug out from under all the rabid theorists, I suppose.

I believe it's mainly crash-bang-wallop these days because most stories are done in one episode. There's not the pacing of Old-Who. Best bit of pacing has been Utopia, building to the most exciting 15 minutes of television ever (probably).

the problem with slowing the pace is the rubbishness of most cliffhanger scenarios...tho you could argue that with such a loyal audience exciting cliffhangers for multi-part episodes wouldn't actually be necessary.

But in the old days, even though you knew the Doc was never going to die, you always bought the peril of the cliffhanger.

I'm not advocating a slowing of pace, mind you, I'm just considering the price.

I was talking with a friend over the weekend about how nu-Who would be so much more fun without the twee love nonsense; the writers seem to lean way too heavily on it, making their stories come across like they all want to bone the Doctor into oblivion. It's one of those things where using it as an initial motif for one companion was fine, particularly when it was unrequited, but then continuing to hammer you over the head with it with almost every companion who crosses the Doctor's path starts to come across as lazy fanwank.

Which, coincidentally, is all Martha is left with.