abortion classic or dud?

I recently walked one of the ppl I'm working with through the entire thing from finding out she was pregnant to picking her up after the procedure and am about to do the same with another girl this week. I can't even imagine the sort of shitstorm that would have happened in either of these two girls' lives had this not been an option for them and shudder to think of either of them trying to parent another person at this point. Classic classic classic imo.

the thread title is framed awkwardly for the reasons aimless mentions. i think it would be more accurate to say "the right to have an abortion -- classic or dud," or something similar.

i haven't read many posts on the thread, so apologies if my point has already been made 10K times (and i'm guessing it has). it's just that the framing of the thread title jumps out at me every time i see it bob to the top of the "new answers" page.

don't think it's meant to be taken literally iirc imo lmbao

i know. it just seems so strangely-worded to me.

the thread title is framed awkwardly for the reasons aimless mentions.

I miss anthony as much for the o_O thread titles he would come up with as for anything else.

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first three posts on that flavin thread are so classic!

unless i'm missing something, i think aimless just meant that no woman wants an abortion just like no woman wants a root canal. in that sense, they're not "classic" like a cold glass of lemonade on a hot day is. goole seems to be applying the "classic" label to humankind's ability to perform an abortion, humankind's willingness to make the right to abort law, and the act of undergoing the procedure itself, which is really detrimental to our effective "classic or dud?" rhetorical approach to analyzing the worthiness of things

― iiiijjjj, Sunday, April 4, 2010 1:56 PM (1 hour ago)

yeah but (and i am about to get into some serious, never-had-an-abortion projecting here, so bear with me) i think the distinction i'm trying to make is that while sure no one likes undergoing any medical procedure, an abortion is something that a woman undergoes because [insert any reason here], just like endodontic therapy is something a patient undergoes to prevent/eliminate infection of the root canal or surrounding tissue. consensual medical procedures are remedies that are imo themselves inherently good. i don't think this was aimless's intention at all but i'm just kinda reacting to my own perception of its framing as a "necessary evil."

and yeah didn't read posts above re: framing - agree it's awkwardly worded but i think we're all on the same page

iirc imo lmbao

― iiiijjjj, Sunday, April 4, 2010 1:11 PM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

laughing my booming ass off?

tried for a while to think of a way to fit "abortion" in it, gave up

Lucifer made babby abortion options.

liveblogging my bloody abortion, O'RLY

slightly edited but:

it was mentioned on some other thread that the anti-abortion position is essentially an outgrowth of old-school anti-pleasure Xtian theology - one that holds that all sexual pleasure is wrong and a sin, and that the only time sex is okay is for reproduction. Ergo, "every sperm is sacred", fetuses are the same as people, sex is only between married people for the purpose of having babies, etc. Which is, to my mind, rooted in a fundamental misreading of humanity and results in an unhealthy proscription that is basically impossible to enforce.

― Kaleidoscope Funk Network (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, April 2, 2010 6:54 PM (6 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

smc - agreed, basically once you sign on for "sex before marriage is ok!" then you've kinda bought a ticket for the abortion party. which is why i'm actually pretty confident about the fact that it will be less and less of an issue once all the old people start dying.

― drink more beer and the doctor is a heghog (gbx), Friday, April 2, 2010 7:00 PM (6 days ago)

this is such a great exchange, what is the larger context for this line of reasoning? i have never come across it before and it is v. convincing!

oh it's strictly Xtian (Jews were totally a-okay with sex and pleasure). But the hatred/denigration of the physical body is deeply rooted in Xtianity - sexual pleasure is a tool of the devil, the only good sex is the married/procreative kind, etc. Primarily this stems from the Xtian need to venerate the promise of the afterlife above the physical world we know and experience in our daily lives. Because if we accept the physical world we live in as worthwhile and as a source of pleasure, then we will have no need to believe in a heaven, and thus will have less of a motivation to seek redemption (and thus entry into heaven) via Jesus Christ. So a very complex and labored theology developed that posited that everything in the material world is essentially evil, corrupt, lacking in value - including the most basic pleasures that people would otherwise enjoy, such as sex. Combine this with the perfectly understandable need for a persecuted sect to increase its numbers via progeny at any cost, and voila the "married sex = good/sex for pleasure = BAD" dichotomy easily becomes firmly entrenched.

I forget which this thread was originally discussed on tho, sorry.

this one!

wait, maybe not

this is what i think now btw! as an argument for abortion this makes more sense to me than anything i've heard before.

i am surprised @ u plax

???? i kinda thought you were on that train too, seems like an argument pretty analogous w/ ur suspicion of women-hating-women who r gung-ho abt pro-life as a way for slutty girls to get whats coming to them

for a long time ive felt like I knew i was in favour of abortion rights but having no real argument as to why

we all figured it was just cuz you were into murdering babies

I might be getting a skewed impression from this american life, but the few times they interview some old people on the subject, I get the sense that getting an abortion was not such a big deal in the 50s/earlier. Like this one scientist wanted to do some research on fetal cells and asked some ladies if he could have their discards, and they said, sure, no problem. He still had some left over in his freezer (!)

???? i kinda thought you were on that train too, seems like an argument pretty analogous w/ ur suspicion of women-hating-women who r gung-ho abt pro-life as a way for slutty girls to get whats coming to them

― plax (ico), Thursday, April 8, 2010 8:14 PM (13 minutes ago)

haha i am i mean you just alwys know about this stuff so i thought you were already on the train

the women-hating-women thing isn't me though i always get accused of woman-hating it seems bc i hate everyone

i mean the majority of my support for abortions4all comes from wariness of ppl trying to control bodies meaning both what's in your body and what you're doing with it, ie, sex

nah meant u were disapproving of women-haterz

abortion is such a high profile issue in this country (where it is still illegal fyi) that it just seems like it is important to have an opinion sometimes, its not something i'm really reasoned abt or educated on, (tho im hoping to change that u no?) always remember me and my friend 4lici4 (aged like 14) lecturing these fuckers called y0uth defence that do pro-life rallies around ireland about the right to choose on shop street on our lunch breaks

which is weird, cos i really had no idea what i was talking abt and even then i was pretty non-confrontational in gen.

wait what? abortion's illegal in the UK?!??

ireland?

yeah

like, you just go to manchester for the wknd in reality, its a really irish way of dealing w/ it, we kindof export the dirty work. If it wasn't so easy to get an abortion (provided you are middle class at least) then we prolly would have legalised it by now but instead we get to preserve our facade of piety in this regard @ least while girls just hop on a ryanair and sign a fake name at the clinic.

it's legal here but as you may have heard people still have a world of trouble in most areas

when it's illegal, why are anti-abortionists complaining? are they complaining about the ryanair abortion junkets?

its a really irish way of dealing w/ it, we kindof export the dirty work.
as someone who was raised by irish catholic women this makes me lol

in a its funny cause its true kind of lol

i mean if you live in say mississippi it's probably as difficult for a low-income person to get one as it is in ireland xxpost

if that's true then that is fucked up

for me what's interesting is the weird play between class-structured necessities (i know quite a few girls who've had abortions in england) and that gross hypocritical symbolism, that is, people on low-incomes/social welfare are sacrificed their abortion rights, which in a way are not denied to their richer counterparts, in order to maintain a facade for everyone. I feel like (although this could just be my own prejudice so like) there is way less stigma attached to abortions among the middle-classes for this very reason.

The facade doesn't seem to be very convincing if there's pro-life rallies going on.

whats really weird is that y0uth defence have been around for a hella long time while "public opinion" has been pretty supportive of the abortion ban for that time.

i mean if you live in say mississippi it's probably as difficult for a low-income person to get one as it is in ireland xxpost

― harbl, Thursday, April 8, 2010 8:46 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

if that's true then that is fucked up

This happens a lot. South Dakota (I think it's SD) has only one abortion clinic in the whole state and a 24 hour waiting period law. Situations where a woman has to travel hours to get there and can only take one day off work or has difficulty arranging childcare for her existing children or any other number of situations can make attaining an abortion really fucking difficult. It's not just SD either. MA only has 5 abortion clinics in the whole state (last time I checked).

Sort of an aside but I'm taking one of the girls on my caseload to get an abortion next Friday. A month ago I took another girl on my caseload to do the same. They're both pregnant by the same gangbanging asshole who beats them up and fucks around and is a complete piece of shit in countless other ways. I realize that they are also responsible for preventing unwanted pregnancies and believe me we've had several discussions about it - they both agreed to get Depo immediately after the procedures - but I hate that dude so much. I wish I could take him along and get him neutered or something next week. /rant

"can make attaining an abortion" errrr "obtaining" obv

i mean if you live in say mississippi it's probably as difficult for a low-income person to get one as it is in ireland xxpost

― harbl, Thursday, April 8, 2010 8:46 PM (1 hour ago)

This is very true. I run an abortion fund in the south & we often hear about and speak with poor women who were forced into parenthood solely because they couldn't afford the abortion procedure. Other roadblocks set up by right wing assholes to make abortions increasingly difficult for women to obtain are also numerous. Waiting periods, parental consent laws, judicial bypass process can be just as much of a hurdle to cross as the financial problem. Sucks.

Fortunately the girls I work with are almost all on MA state funded health insurance program which covers the procedure in full.

http://charlespaolino.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/mittromney.jpg

ENBB you are my hero for the work you do btw just so you know.

^

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w219/mwellenstein/Win/48px-Face-blushsvg.png

Aw man, that is exceptionally sweet. Thank you.

When I worked at a clinic in Boulder, we'd see a lot of women from western SD. About the same distance as Sioux Falls, with no 24h wait.

I've been volunteering at the local Boys & Girls Club and yr stories occasionally pass through my head when I'm working with the kids. Most of them are a lot younger, mind you, but the personalities are definitely remind me of ENBB's stories.