Favorite poster from NR's "The Corner"

the problem is that allows space for systemic inequalities like educational disparities, how public schooling is funded etc.

one of the things i think allowed obama to really do well in downstate IL was his pointing out the obvious fact that downstate schools and inner city schools were both underfunded in comparison to the chicago suburbs.

i think spending per pupil downstate is like 2,000 vs 19,000 at new trier high school in wilmette

I don't see why stating that racial issues and class issues are being conflated in modern American society allows space for systemic inequalities like blah blah blah, unless you're assuming I think it's okay for poorer districts to be underfunded compared to more affluent areas.

one of the tricks w/ class though is that by some huge margin, white ppl are more likely to live in economically integrated communities than black people. That is to say that a poor white person is statistically much more likely to live in an area with public schools that are well-funded than a poor black person.

So then you focus your efforts on the schools that aren't well-funded.

I get the "trick" but it seems kind of willful to just throw your hands up and say "oh well, can't do anything due to all the racism!"

haha im not arguing we should do that! my intent in that first post was more about urging caution in celebration than it was saying 'same as it ever was.'

i wasnt trying to argue with you or say you were wrong actually, just trying to add dimension to it for the strawman ilxor reading this conversation

Yeah, Dan, I don't disagree that (b) is far from wrong or delusional -- I agree that we've gotten to a point where most black people as individuals aren't going to be denied anything they'd otherwise have achieved solely on the basis of race. And people are totally seizing that equal level of opportunity, and as I get older I get more and more convinced that, if I'm lucky enough to get nice and old, I'll one day be sitting in a country with a large black middle class that nobody even has to think of as some kind of "achievement."

The only reason I'm tempted to keep an eye on these things right now is that ... this conclusion that racism isn't so actively holding individuals back has to come with some historical recognition that there are large black demographics that are, in the aggregate, starting from a really limiting position, and that the reason they're there isn't because of some failure to seize opportunities, it's part of a broader legacy. Because when there's not that historical recognition, I think there's a tendency for some people to start backsliding into the mentality that there's something wrong with the people themselves. (Something that's occasionally true about white segments of the underclass, but not nearly as true, or true in the same ways.)

Let me also note that the interaction of (a) + (b) depends on individuals and where they're coming from. I think it's possible for a lot of people to be surrounded by bad attitudes about race but not have that actually bar them from a lot of achievements, if only because those bad attitudes aren't organized (i.e., even if two out of ten people you apply for jobs with have bad attitudes, that hurts you, but it doesn't sink you the way across-the-board racism once did). But I do believe there are a lot of people who are surrounded by enough bad attitudes and bad expectations (both internal and external!) that it still actively diminishes their possibilities in life, especially in areas that aren't as open and packed with possibilities/opportunities as urban centers.

Actually let me add a caveat to this:

I agree that we've gotten to a point where most black people as individuals aren't going to be denied anything they'd otherwise have achieved solely on the basis of race

^^ By this I mean in a very loose, aggregate sense -- specific things, maybe, but I do think we're hitting a point where someone's overall life path isn't being radically shifted by external stuff having to do with race in the here-and-now. Economic class, social class, and class-having-to-do-with-race, different story

Yeah, I don't disagree with that very much. I do feel, though, that real headway isn't going to be made unless we (plz forgive me I cannot help myself) call a spade a spade and deal with the classism problem in this country; I often feel people would rather call this a problem with racism so that they can just shrug and say "oh well, that's how people are!"; it seems to me to be a rather blatant and petty divide-and-conquer technique.

I'm not sure I entirely follow. Or, well ... I was going to say that there's a weird part of me that thinks Americans might sometimes be less shruggy about framing things as racism than as classism, because we have a very firm and hard-to-counter national delusion that people's economic turnouts are based on their own actions. But in terms of national politics it's really really hard to separate those things from ideas about race, since our last periods of really talking about poverty managed to be almost entirely about people's perceptions of race!

Personally, I'd much rather the racists in our society wear their prejudices on their nametags than secretly harbor their opinions. It's probably a sign that we're moving past race (or moving in that general direction), that The Corner is no longer keeping their bullshit to themselves but flaunting it. It's desperately overt.

Which is to say - maybe this election is smoking out the hidden biases. It's turning racist subversion into stupidity. (Of course, this is probably just me as an English major talking.)

But in terms of national politics it's really really hard to separate those things from ideas about race, since our last periods of really talking about poverty managed to be almost entirely about people's perceptions of race!

My thesis statement is the inversion of this; we have successfully managed to avoid having a meaningful national discussion on poverty because it has been turned into a discussion about perceptions of race by the people with a vested interest in keeping the problem around (ie, rich folk).

Ultimately I think we are coming to the same conclusion from different angles, though, so I don't think we need to spend all night explaining things to each other.

Two in a row:

Above My Pay Grade [Kathryn Jean Lopez]

The Sarah Palin Cabbage Patch Doll on ebay is nearing $4,000; as much as I'd like to help the economy and charity .... Oddly, Joe Biden doesn't seem to be as popular. That one you still might be able to get for your daughter ...

10/31 02:57 PM

A Whole New Timewaster [Kathryn Jean Lopez]

The "walls" on the K-Lo and Jonah Facebook pages are slowly becoming a sub-Corner network, like the bar where you go to talk about "The Corner."

they havent responded to my friend requests :(

the bar where you go to talk about "The Corner."

HELL

Hey, we're here talking about the Corner, that means we're Purgatory at least.

Gotcha, yes, totally agreed on that. Actually, over the past few decades, I'd say most of our conversations about poverty that haven't actually been conversations about race have wound up being ideological arguments about the role and size of government -- always with this weird presumption that the only thing government can do about poverty is "handouts" and welfare programs.

I also think that for a variety of reasons, it's near-impossible to get Americans to talk about "poverty" as a social problem, which is part of why I was praising Obama's Reaganesque tone in the infomercial; maybe it's just that the wealth gap is increasing too quickly, but you can now talk about helping the middle class in terms of ideas that are really about preventing poverty!

ahahah its the corner's own 77

shit i'd go to that bar, why not

because it would be awful and full of awful people

http://web.tiscalinet.it/silviodr/Korova%20milk%20bar.jpg

York, Steyn, K-Lo, Goldberg, Lowry, I think.

The vale of tears:

Dishonesty [Mark R. Levin]

This is pathetic. Doug Kmiec, I remember when you came to my office at the Justice Department — where at the time I was serving as associate deputy attorney general under Attorney General Ed Meese — seeking an appointment. I remember processing your papers and sending them to the White House for political clearance. I remember advocating for your appointment to a deputy assistant attorney general post in the Office of Legal Counsel and securing your appointment. And from there, Doug, you became the acting assistant attorney general for the Office of Legal Counsel in the last days of the Reagan administration. You have now used your resume to give cover to perhaps the most radical and unqualified person to be nominated for president. And your arguments on Obama's behalf have been nothing short of dishonest. I am extremely disappointed in you. But my guess is you've earned a judgeship should Obama win the presidency. Frankly, sometimes you think you know somebody when, in fact, you don't.

Said anything over there about Duberstein yet?

the most radical and unqualified person to be nominated for president.

does he really believe this.

It's Mark Levin, of course he believes that.

One of the funniest things I've read was a few years ago when he popped over to the Belgravia Dispatch blog and whined about Greg D. (the blogowner) and his take on things. You could tell Levin wasn't merely annoyed that people might have different views from him, but actually mortally insulted and outraged.

The idea that this guy was once part of the Justic Department is utterly grotesque.

Don't worry -- he had McCarthy for company.

These conservative "defections" raise the question: is this an isolated phenomenon? How many Republicans secretly voted for Kerry in 2004, or for Clinton in 1996?

It's easier to stay quiet when a possible electoral and popular landslide isn't threatening to bury you.

The Obama Cult Cont'd [Jonah Goldberg]

Look, I agree that there's a legitmate argument that Obama has not encouraged the craziest aspects of the Obama cult and therefore he shouldn't be held accountable for all of the "lightworker," Obama Youth and messiah stuff. But, it would be nice if more non-culty Obama supporters would at least acknowledge the profound creepiness of some of this stuff. Here's the latest example:

EL PASO — A man who jumped 60 feet to his death from the Spaghetti Bowl on Thursday left a note with a message for Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama.
A note to "Obama" was found in the man's car, which was parked on the top ramp of the Spaghetti Bowl.
Officials offered no further explanation nor interpreted the note's meaning.

What did the note say? "Obama take care of my family."

I sent Jonah an email in response. Since I'm sure he won't post it, here it is:

Sure, what the hell. I'll be your liberal reader who will admit to the weirdness. All messianic reactions to politicians are creepy - whether to Obama or to Reagan. That said, when I read the story you posted about the man who jumped to his death, I was less filled with creepiness than with sadness. What a sad man who felt he had to end his life, and what a sad message to leave with the world. I'm going to be a bit snarky, so forgive me - I think the difference between liberals and conservatives is when we hear about these people, we think of them as mentally unwell and non-representative. When you look at the same people on your side, you think of them as friends.

that doesnt sound like 'messianic devotee' at all

What an idiot.

Yeah. It just sounds like a sad, unwell dude. But that's my point. We recognize that. For Jonah, these are his buddies on the right, so he assumes they must be an average leftist too.

Look, I agree that there's a legitmate argument that Obama has not encouraged the craziest aspects of the Obama cult

I like the phrasing of this. "Yeah, just maybe."

"I mean it's POSSIBLE he might not have encouraged this guy to jump to his death that's all I'm saying."

Goldberg is enamored of the phrase "there is a legitimate argument." Its use of the passive voice is a sneaky way of avoiding responsiblity.

There is a legitimate argument that he is not a goof.

Make it then.

Is it weird that I haven't found Goldberg the most egregious, horrific writer for NRO this election cycle? Next to Lowry, who masturbates to Palin on television, and Steyn, who thinks Obama wants to personally put him in a gulag... Goldberg has actually sounded somewhat reasonable at times.

He spends a lot of time playing with his daughter.

I don't think he's sounded reasonable, but I can't disagree that I've seen quotes from all the other folks that sound a LOT more nutso.

i think he sounds tired and unenthusiastic more than "reasonable"

ok wau. She did it!

hahahahahaha omg

john mccain = triumph
obama = rush

seriously she posted a triumph video. on national review online.

to compare & contrast: the wankers at TownHall:

http://townhall.com/columnists/

George Will : All Shall Not Be Lost
Terry Paulson : Democracies Die When Liberty Gives Way to Dependence
Phil Harris : Barack’s Siren’s Song - The Seduction of a Nation
Jackie Gingrich Cushman : Become Organized, Be Persistant and Live Longer
Guy Benson : Criticizing Obama: Mission Impossible
David R. Stokes : Charisma and Promises to Keep
Ken Connor : Vote to Ensure Representative Government
Kevin McCullough : "Fundamental Transformation?" Yes or No...
Austin Hill : Barack Obama And The Economics Of Sesame Street
Paul Jacob : The million-dollar question
Salena Zito : Closing the deal
Doug Giles : Young Undecideds Who Love Guns: Vote Your Glock
Bill O'Reilly : The Fear Factor
Brent Bozell III : No Access For Hollywood?
Carl Horowitz : Adam Clayton Powell: Father of Black Identity Politics, Mentor to Al Sharpton
Frank Turek : Born Gay or a Gay Basher? No Excuse
William Perry Pendley : Enviros Go Nuclear, But Not in a Good Way
Wynton Hall : Obama's Spiral of Silence
Paul Greenberg : The Joy of Losing
Thomas Sowell : Ego and Mouth

Look, at age 17...Jay received enlightenment!
Thinking as Children, Thinking as Adults [Jay Nordlinger]
One of the regular themes of my political writing is one very insulting to liberals: Liberals are often people who, in their thinking, never grew up — their thinking remained childlike. This is true when it comes to issues of war and peace; and it’s true when it comes to issues of wealth and poverty.

Give you an example that recently came to mind: I used to think that resistance to taxation was selfish; that, indeed, advocacy of lower taxes was an expression of selfishness, if not contempt for others. (Recall that Congressman Rangel has damned tax cuts as “racist.”) But then I turned about 17 — and realized that a free economy, with low taxation and light regulation, made people at large more prosperous.

It is not selfish to want to keep more of your own money. Often, people do more for others with their own wealth than government can do for others with that same wealth.

And here comes Senator Obama, tarring resistance to higher taxation as selfish. (His running mate, for good measure, has labeled it unpatriotic.) That’d be okay for Obama’s young daughters — but for a man his age?

Last week, I was in a debate with a distinguished professor of economics who described the “anti-tax movement” (in his words) as a “disease.” He went on to quote the old saw about taxes being the price of civilization — sure. But we “anti-tax” people don’t advocate no taxes. We advocate a fair, sensible, and effective system of taxation.

It is often right to be childlike in our thinking (certainly when it comes to matters spiritual). At other times — it is pathetically harmful.