abortion classic or dud?

~would that my eyes could see again~

im dismissive and jaded abt dismissive jadedness

classic!

― as a dude (goole), Tuesday, December 2, 2008 1:44 PM (1 year ago) Bookmark Suggest

haha

all im saying is that a controversy like this just needs the right moment to go viral, there's a confluence of reasons why that story got blown up, but really it was not because it was that sensational, just because it got picked up at the right moment and carried. Sounds like a bad art project that was being lol controversial, and saying that they are ten-a-penny in art school (an atmosphere where paul mccarthy, marina abramovich etc are like old masters at this stage) is not so much jaded as taxonomic tbh. her story got picked up, was easily used to illustrate a partic. point conserves had about the insane primitivism of liberal values wrt the life of the unborn, and so it seemed obvious that once it entered into an area of discourse ie conservative blogs/news shows/chat radio etc that are not usually keeping up to date with the local art scene, that due to its novelty and, due to perspective, novel shock value, the story grew legs.

Sure the girl went back on whether or not it was real. She was just some girl with a not so great idea that got caught in a larger media whirlwind than she bargained on from the bubble of her artschool/scene and when faced with that I mean, she probably just didn't want to have to explain to her parents why the money spent ontuition was now wasted. A lot of people do just go to art school w/o any long term goals of being artists, or realise that their commitment was not what they thought it was when they were 18. Holding some girl accountable for her artistic integrity under those circumstances just seems ridic naive imo.

yeah i dont think we disagree i think u are just being meaner about it than i am

i have a lot more *baggage* in this are than u tho

booming post IKR

to clarify though, I don't really care that she went back on her stance or tried to have it both ways, it just annoyed me when people held her up as a serious or good or interesting artist or w/e given her waffling - I'm not hatin the playa I'm hatin the game

ah yeah i guess i only basically read negative cov'g of her, like either she was some kind of godless babykiller or she was a dumb art student, and i felt bad, she was just some kid who wanted 2 make art~~

anyway apparently she's getting a ph.d in performance studies @ nyu so good on her, have a nice life~

just a girl with a dream~~2 make art~~and abort her fetus

for real tho, it is. i'm going to go on in dorm-room fashion for a while, sorry

lately tho, i've been thinking that the "is it really a ~person~?" line kind of misses the point. let's say a fetus is life, of some kind. it is living tissue, and its status as potential human life differentiates it from, say, your dog, or a rare tree, or i dunno a kobe ribeye or some other kind of "valued" organic life or product-of-life.

so, then, abortion has to be viewed as, yes, some kind of killing. it is distinct from a medical procedure like getting a bunion removed or something.

the rejoinder, then, is, so what. what difference does it make? really, what different world are we in, were a woman to be refused an abortion? or to have one? which world is better or worse?

i think human agency, increased human potential, human freedom-of-action, are the closest thing we have to a measure of "absolute good" there is. and i don't think this a "matter of principle," unverifiable, i think places and times where abortions are available and being performed are better places to live for everyone. that's correlation, of course.

Aimless position "abortion = dud, the right to one = classic" makes no sense to me. by nature, we are not free. nature is not liberating, and our creator hasn't granted us anything much good (the founding fathers are wrong about this). we have had the technical expertise to reach into pretty simple but fundamental processes of reproduction for a long time, and that's good. abortion is classic! the right to have one, that is, the ability to cease to be pregnant without the state messing with you, is a secondary question, and subject to argument.

yeah that's p much what i was trying to say, booming post

i actually don't follow that post at all, not "i dont agree with it" but I could def. use a bit of clarification.

yeah same here tbh, i think i agree though?

unless i'm missing something, i think aimless just meant that no woman wants an abortion just like no woman wants a root canal. in that sense, they're not "classic" like a cold glass of lemonade on a hot day is. goole seems to be applying the "classic" label to humankind's ability to perform an abortion, humankind's willingness to make the right to abort law, and the act of undergoing the procedure itself, which is really detrimental to our effective "classic or dud?" rhetorical approach to analyzing the worthiness of things

yeah that's about it.

I agree with both of them tbh.

I recently walked one of the ppl I'm working with through the entire thing from finding out she was pregnant to picking her up after the procedure and am about to do the same with another girl this week. I can't even imagine the sort of shitstorm that would have happened in either of these two girls' lives had this not been an option for them and shudder to think of either of them trying to parent another person at this point. Classic classic classic imo.

the thread title is framed awkwardly for the reasons aimless mentions. i think it would be more accurate to say "the right to have an abortion -- classic or dud," or something similar.

i haven't read many posts on the thread, so apologies if my point has already been made 10K times (and i'm guessing it has). it's just that the framing of the thread title jumps out at me every time i see it bob to the top of the "new answers" page.

don't think it's meant to be taken literally iirc imo lmbao

i know. it just seems so strangely-worded to me.

the thread title is framed awkwardly for the reasons aimless mentions.

I miss anthony as much for the o_O thread titles he would come up with as for anything else.

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what, thats a 100 000 a tube (dan flavin and auctions) (started by Anthony Easton on board I Love Everything on May 3, 2005)

there is a risk of the iowa pork queen being run out of buisness, this made me sad, so i wrote a poem about it (started by Anthony Easton on board I Love Everything on Jun 6, 2005)

which states are part of new england (started by Anthony Easton on board I Love Everything on Jan 30, 2006)

i know this dress is ugly, but is it also conceptually brilliant (started by Anthony Easton on board I Love Everything on Feb 2, 2006)

does anyone know how gives these fuckers money (started by Anthony Easton on board I Love Everything on Feb 7, 2006)

first three posts on that flavin thread are so classic!

unless i'm missing something, i think aimless just meant that no woman wants an abortion just like no woman wants a root canal. in that sense, they're not "classic" like a cold glass of lemonade on a hot day is. goole seems to be applying the "classic" label to humankind's ability to perform an abortion, humankind's willingness to make the right to abort law, and the act of undergoing the procedure itself, which is really detrimental to our effective "classic or dud?" rhetorical approach to analyzing the worthiness of things

― iiiijjjj, Sunday, April 4, 2010 1:56 PM (1 hour ago)

yeah but (and i am about to get into some serious, never-had-an-abortion projecting here, so bear with me) i think the distinction i'm trying to make is that while sure no one likes undergoing any medical procedure, an abortion is something that a woman undergoes because [insert any reason here], just like endodontic therapy is something a patient undergoes to prevent/eliminate infection of the root canal or surrounding tissue. consensual medical procedures are remedies that are imo themselves inherently good. i don't think this was aimless's intention at all but i'm just kinda reacting to my own perception of its framing as a "necessary evil."

and yeah didn't read posts above re: framing - agree it's awkwardly worded but i think we're all on the same page

iirc imo lmbao

― iiiijjjj, Sunday, April 4, 2010 1:11 PM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

laughing my booming ass off?

tried for a while to think of a way to fit "abortion" in it, gave up

Lucifer made babby abortion options.

liveblogging my bloody abortion, O'RLY

slightly edited but:

it was mentioned on some other thread that the anti-abortion position is essentially an outgrowth of old-school anti-pleasure Xtian theology - one that holds that all sexual pleasure is wrong and a sin, and that the only time sex is okay is for reproduction. Ergo, "every sperm is sacred", fetuses are the same as people, sex is only between married people for the purpose of having babies, etc. Which is, to my mind, rooted in a fundamental misreading of humanity and results in an unhealthy proscription that is basically impossible to enforce.

― Kaleidoscope Funk Network (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, April 2, 2010 6:54 PM (6 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

smc - agreed, basically once you sign on for "sex before marriage is ok!" then you've kinda bought a ticket for the abortion party. which is why i'm actually pretty confident about the fact that it will be less and less of an issue once all the old people start dying.

― drink more beer and the doctor is a heghog (gbx), Friday, April 2, 2010 7:00 PM (6 days ago)

this is such a great exchange, what is the larger context for this line of reasoning? i have never come across it before and it is v. convincing!

oh it's strictly Xtian (Jews were totally a-okay with sex and pleasure). But the hatred/denigration of the physical body is deeply rooted in Xtianity - sexual pleasure is a tool of the devil, the only good sex is the married/procreative kind, etc. Primarily this stems from the Xtian need to venerate the promise of the afterlife above the physical world we know and experience in our daily lives. Because if we accept the physical world we live in as worthwhile and as a source of pleasure, then we will have no need to believe in a heaven, and thus will have less of a motivation to seek redemption (and thus entry into heaven) via Jesus Christ. So a very complex and labored theology developed that posited that everything in the material world is essentially evil, corrupt, lacking in value - including the most basic pleasures that people would otherwise enjoy, such as sex. Combine this with the perfectly understandable need for a persecuted sect to increase its numbers via progeny at any cost, and voila the "married sex = good/sex for pleasure = BAD" dichotomy easily becomes firmly entrenched.

I forget which this thread was originally discussed on tho, sorry.

this one!

wait, maybe not

this is what i think now btw! as an argument for abortion this makes more sense to me than anything i've heard before.

i am surprised @ u plax

???? i kinda thought you were on that train too, seems like an argument pretty analogous w/ ur suspicion of women-hating-women who r gung-ho abt pro-life as a way for slutty girls to get whats coming to them

for a long time ive felt like I knew i was in favour of abortion rights but having no real argument as to why

we all figured it was just cuz you were into murdering babies

I might be getting a skewed impression from this american life, but the few times they interview some old people on the subject, I get the sense that getting an abortion was not such a big deal in the 50s/earlier. Like this one scientist wanted to do some research on fetal cells and asked some ladies if he could have their discards, and they said, sure, no problem. He still had some left over in his freezer (!)

???? i kinda thought you were on that train too, seems like an argument pretty analogous w/ ur suspicion of women-hating-women who r gung-ho abt pro-life as a way for slutty girls to get whats coming to them

― plax (ico), Thursday, April 8, 2010 8:14 PM (13 minutes ago)

haha i am i mean you just alwys know about this stuff so i thought you were already on the train

the women-hating-women thing isn't me though i always get accused of woman-hating it seems bc i hate everyone

i mean the majority of my support for abortions4all comes from wariness of ppl trying to control bodies meaning both what's in your body and what you're doing with it, ie, sex

nah meant u were disapproving of women-haterz

abortion is such a high profile issue in this country (where it is still illegal fyi) that it just seems like it is important to have an opinion sometimes, its not something i'm really reasoned abt or educated on, (tho im hoping to change that u no?) always remember me and my friend 4lici4 (aged like 14) lecturing these fuckers called y0uth defence that do pro-life rallies around ireland about the right to choose on shop street on our lunch breaks

which is weird, cos i really had no idea what i was talking abt and even then i was pretty non-confrontational in gen.

wait what? abortion's illegal in the UK?!??

ireland?

yeah

like, you just go to manchester for the wknd in reality, its a really irish way of dealing w/ it, we kindof export the dirty work. If it wasn't so easy to get an abortion (provided you are middle class at least) then we prolly would have legalised it by now but instead we get to preserve our facade of piety in this regard @ least while girls just hop on a ryanair and sign a fake name at the clinic.

it's legal here but as you may have heard people still have a world of trouble in most areas