Doctor Who 2008: Sontarans cometh, RTD Ood 'ave 'im etc.

Dude that anagram thing is the sort of thing we'd be going "OMG love it!" about if it turned up in Lost.

It was great!

I agree Matt, but maybe that's because the Lost writers would use it sparingly. You can make a telling anagram out of almost every name Rusty uses (except where he's stolen them out of other things he's written) and the Donna thing would have been quite clever had every other line of dialogue she uttered in the second half of the series not been "I'm a temp". When you batter your audience over the head with your subtlety you're erm... not being subtle any more.

Wait they were trying to be subtle?!

Unbelievably, yes.

I could explain, but I'd just bore you

Come, now...

I've got a theory that Rusty put the Time War in there in the first place because its an excuse to effectively throw timelines and continuity in the bin in the first place rather than tie themselves up in knots with them WHICH ALWAYS HAPPENS otherwise. Which is fine until you try and write something like Turn Left (which fudged that particular issue by bringing Donna's own parallel universe into it).

Surely the Daleks attacked Earth at least once between the 60s and 80s which might have made the news, or at least have been remembered by whichever shady organisation had the 'last' Dalek back in S1?

They've also fudged that issue wrt 'fixed points' in time (ie Pompeii, anything historical that really happened) and 'time is in flux' (Dalek presumably, everything that's made up).

The yakkety saxiness of Donna's scene where she foils the Daleks was the whole point! It was hilarious! C'mon Daleks in general are the most hilariously rubbish aliens ever. If you've lost sight of this I... feel for you.

Dalek battle in London, 1964 (Rememberance) but the Army and the British Rocket Group are involved from the start and there's no evidence that there isn't a good clean up afterwards.
Minor appearances of small clusters in The Chase, Evil Of The Daleks, Ressurection but these are time travellers.
Death To the Daleks happens in the "late 20th Century" but acknowledges itself that the events of it change time and it happens in a remote location.
Everything else is in the future (DIoE primarily) or on another planet.

So no, Rusty is the first one to have a decent dalek force on Earth.

xpost to Matt

Tracer, I personally don't particularly like the Daleks, but if that's the case then the Rusty episodes featuring Daleks are pretty pointless - you're undoing any menace associated with the finales of S2 and S3 for starters.

why I hated it: Poor, unimaginative, badly written story that felt entirely secondary to RTD's massive deluded wank - too many conveninent solutions and coincidences unexplained, staggeringly stupid things like "the Doctor-Donna! like what the Ood said!", very annoying sub-Doc/Donna exchanges, Donna's Timelord hammery, pointless inclusion of Jackie and Mickey, Martha, Earth tow (but...how would the sea stay in place? oh sorry it's FUNNN must not question...) sequence, the sheer stupidity of the Daleks "plan", Caan's insistence that "one will die" meaning only that Timelord Donna memory gets wiped (can't believe RTD pulled this 'companion's gonna die...ah but not really' thing again - not that I thought she should've been killed off) conveniently quickly and easily, useless useless Supreme Dalek, rather pointless "look it's Geeta from Eastenders...zap" attempt at emotional tug, "children of Time" rubbish, unsatisfying destruction of entire Dalek empire, Bad Wolf Bay scenes and clumsiness of Rose/Doctor solution (why is her getting her man so important? why must she win while everyone else loses?), just the general execution of things (altho he's never had to handle classic Who monsters, i would've taken a drunk Moffat-written version of this over RTD wank any day...

A couple of great scenes (Germany stuff - dubious as the 'LOL NUREMBERG' stuff felt, Davros in general, Daleks being spun around) just can't make up for all that.

There weren't any Daleks in the S3 finale.

You don't think that the massively powerful organisation that had the Dalek and owned the internet or whatever it was might have known about any cover-up?

I just don't think there's any point getting that het up about continuity seeing as it's always going to fall down at some point. Which is fine until you write something perfectly self-contained like Blink that relies upon proper cause-and-effect loops in the first place.

Potential continuity problems since nu-Who started:

Martha's qualification as a Doctor, promotion within Unit etc.
2012 olympics being IN THE FUTURE (or are they).
Harriet Jones period of office as Prime Minister.
Huw Edwards still presenting the news.
Richard Dawkins not being destroyed by a heavenly thunderbolt.
Etc etc.

My general feeling was whilst the "science" and multimply ex machina solutions were usual Rusty finale bobbins, the end of the whole Donna arc was emotionally very pleasing (well except the end, but even that worked because it ran counter to everyone elses happy endings). Donna has been the most satisfying companion with a proper emotional growth and there is a nice hidden question in her final status quo. Just because she doesn't remember any of her adventures, does it mean she is not changed? Will her mother be more supportive, will Donna become a better person. I doubt we'll find out (particularly as the Moffat storyline did its best to sideline her) but is a good one for the kids to think about - and much much worse than losing Rose to a parallel world. Twice.

or at least have been remembered by whichever shady organisation had the 'last' Dalek back in S1?

Firstly, that hasn't actually happened yet because it was in 2012 (if RTD's "continuity" places us currently in 2010 as aldo suggests), secondly it was in a museum of stuff being catalogued by Adam-with-all-the-info-in-the-world-in-his-head who has disappeared and been written out of Who history (I sound quite bitter about this, don't I? I just don't get the continual reference of things that don't matter like Gwen looking like Gwyneth, Martha being Adeola's identical cousin etc yet here is a guy with Hugely Important Stuff that has just been consigned to the scrapheap)

I guess it'll be OK for Donna to read and hear references to presumably world famous incidents like 'the Christmas star/when the Thames got drained' and all the other stuff touched on in Turn Left and not have the memories re-awakened. Ergh.

I meant that the 2010 (or whenever) organisation would probably, in all their research, possibly have unearthed some evidence of an invasion in 1964 even if it was covered up.

I'd love to see Adam return but obv it won't happen. We can just figure that when his Mum clicked her fingers she freaked out and shopped him to the military where he remains an employed prisoner, probably helped UNIT build the Valiant etc.

Sorry, I meant S1 and S2 for dalek finales. Not to mention the one that's just finished. So for three series out of four we're MEANT to believe that there's actually no threat to any life forms, because daleks are bit crap innit? CHINNY RECKON.

Thank you for reminding me about RICHARD FUCKING DAWKINS. That's right, a TV show would hire a biologist as an astronomy expert. Because he's a "scientist". Presumably next we'll have Steve Davis commentation on football next. Because they're both "sportsmen". WORSE THAN STUNT CASTING.

xpost You'd think they'd remember the Earth getting moved to the other end of the universe, the world being over-run by Daleks in the street blowing shit up, then towed home by a police box as well two years earlier, rather than all that "what is this strange metal pepperpot"

oh good point, wasn't thinking about that

That's right, a TV show would hire a biologist as an astronomy expert. Because he's a "scientist".

The sad thing is, they probably would.

Should've got Guy Goma, tbh (was that his name? taxi driver / accidental computer expert)

^ note to Rusty, this is my idea and it is terrible, please do not steal for any of your upcoming specials, OK?

i believe RTD consulted Gok Wan for the scene where the sub-Doctor appears in the buff

I don't think RTD even thinks about some of the stuff he writes. Turn Left showed us what a parlous state the world/universe would be in without the Doctor, and he knows it, yet as soon as Donna looks like dying in the oxide-and-neutrino whirligig or whatever it was, he basically says "Kill me instead!" as if that would be a sensible sacrifice. But there's no time to question that bit of idiocy because there's something even stupider around the corner. The Earth towing! So the Earth's been traumatised by Dalek occupation, then subjected to the equivalent of a moderate planet-wide earthquake with all the damage that would inflict, but basically everything's OK now.

The most annoying thing about RTD is that he dismisses all his critics as nerds who can't handle the emotional stuff when the truth is that Moffat's stories are far more moving than this soap opera bullshit. And if you're going to constantly break the implied contract that all sci-fi/fantasy makes with the viewer - accept this one implausible central premise and everything else will make sense - you can't turn around and call anyone who is bothered by this a geek. I don't even like sci-fi as a rule - I'd just like to be able to suspend my disbelief for longer than a few minutes without some ridiculous contradiction or deus ex machina making me feel like I'm wasting my time on a show written by someone who can't be arsed to resolve basic plot difficulties and just chucks everything into the blender. Good riddance to the guy.

Presumably the events of Dalek don't actually happen any more, because the whole thing has been rewritten by an older Doctor (rather that what happened to a younger one even further in the real past). Considering that Dalek committed suicide its impact on anything is pretty minimal.

(Xpost - OTM about Moffatt and the emotional stuff. Paul Cornell is possibly even better at doing it, I want him back in 2010 please).

The problem with this cliffhanger - like most Who cliffhangers - is that it hinges on OMG they are in immediate peril of death when you know full well it's not going to happen. The best cliffhangers are when the viewer is left on the verge of some big reveal, which this two-parter hinted at and then copped out of.

aldo aldo aldo

see, if you read all that you'll see one of Rusty's problems. EVERYTHING HAS TO BE HUGE.

This nails it.

Every year they raise the stakes, again again and again. It got silly, and now that we've just had END OF TEH UNIVERSE there really is nowhere to go, apart from killing the Doctor or summat.

It's not even the only inconsistency in his OWN CONTINUITY, "remember when we met, I was so angry and you changed that" NO NO NO do you seriously think we've forgotten how angry the Doctor was in PotW? REGENERATION made him not angry, not Rose.

I thought he was referring to Ecclesdoc coming into being during the Time War. Possible?

I might even have enjoyed the Donna stuff were it not all a Cartmel Nasterplan pt2 rip-off. For those who are not aware in Series 27 if it got made, and specifically in a serial called Ice Time written by Marc Platt, Ace was going to become a Time Lord in order to try and 'humanise' Gallifrey and lead to the creation of a new race of Time Lords; and it was going to be revealed that The Doctor had deliberately picked Ace and subjected her to the events of Series 25 and 26 just to shape her the right way. SIMILAR, MUCH?

It was never used, so why not now? And yes, I know Ace got all ballsy in the books a la Rose this year, but Father's Day was recycled last year to good effect so meh, basically.

which at the very minimum put the "present" in NuWho in late 2010, or at worst sets up conflicting dates with things which happened after other things being rembered by characters during events which happened before. HE HASN'T EVEN GOT DECADES OF CONTUNUITY TO BLAME, HE'S DONE THIS COMPLETELY TO HIMSELF. And THAT is why he's a bad writer, more than anything else.

Very, very few people care about this.

I think the entire planet Earth will be retconned in one of next year's specials, making the events/circumstances of 'Dalek' work again.

altho that kind of already happened in last year's finale (but we know RTD likes to recycle his shittest ideas).

OK, RTD "continuity"

Rose is in real time (April 2005)
by Aliens of London she has been missing a year (May 2006)
In Boom Town, Margaret Blaine has left London and become Lord Mayor of Cardiff and started construction on a nuclear power station (let's be generous and say she can achieve all this in a year June 2007)
Christmas Invasion therefore cannot occur before December 2007 (also a year seems reasonable for everryone to accept Harriet Jones is actually Prime Minister)
School Reunion takes place after this, as Mickey and Jackie are not surprised by Doctor 10 (April 2008)
Love & Monsters takes place during Rose's time with Doctor 10. (I will place a side note to Vote Saxon poster)
Army Of Ghosts takes place some time after this, as the ghosts have been appearing for "months". This episode takes place in the summer (Donna is on holiday in Spain, she later tells us) so must be in summer 2009.
The Runaway Bride explicitly takes place after this, because The Doctor asks Donna about Doomsday so Christmas 2009. (Again, optimistic, as HC Clements has undergone a total reconstruction of Canary Wharf but let's be generous)
Smith & Jones takes place after this ("my cousin died at Canary Wharf") so April 2010.
The Lazarus Experiment is later this year, and must be into winter because it is dark outside by 6pm and Saxon is not PM
Saxon becomes PM in the late spring (2011)
A year passes but is RESETTED therefore LotTL takes place therefore June 2011 makes it real time
Voyage Of the Damned must take place therefore in December 2011 (although technically I suppose there's nothing stopping it happening in 2010, except Martha having not noticed it happening despite it only having been a couple of weeks beforehand)
Martha qualifies as a Doctor after LotTL which must be a year afterwards since she's missed the year through travelling, made explicit at the end of that story, which means the Sontaran eps can't take place before AT LEAST summer 2012 (assuming she qualifies in the May-ish of that year and is promoted within UNIT and trusted to the point where she can get farmed out to Torchwood after only weeks of working there). Wilf remembers the Doctor from VotD so it must happen after that.
If Stolen Earth therefore happens at the 'right time' of year (ignoring the nights drawing in) it can't possibly happen before July 2012.

Two months after Dalek.

FUCK'S SAKE, THIS ISN'T HARD. RUSTY AND HIS CUNTY MATES GET PAID VAST SWATHES OF MONEY TO ENSURE SHIT LIKE THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN.

And if you're going to constantly break the implied contract that all sci-fi/fantasy makes with the viewer - accept this one implausible central premise and everything else will make sense - you can't turn around and call anyone who is bothered by this a geek. I don't even like sci-fi as a rule - I'd just like to be able to suspend my disbelief for longer than a few minutes without some ridiculous contradiction or deus ex machina making me feel like I'm wasting my time on a show written by someone who can't be arsed to resolve basic plot difficulties and just chucks everything into the blender.

Bang on. However, we do tend to forget that Davies brought back the show in its current, moderately incredible form. Yes he bollocksed up a few basic tenets of storytelling, especially in these stake-raising finales, but without him we probably wouldn't have a show as good as this.

I cannot wait for Moffat to hit his straps.

Matt DC: Excellent point. Right through this episode I wasn't sure if Donna was going to live, but I more-or-less knew she wouldn't be going on, so even that was a foregone conclusion to some extent. Other than that, we all knew the Doctor would live, Earth would be fine, the Daleks would be defeated etc etc.

xp also, of the 9.4 million Britons who watch, approx. 12 people sit down and work out the show's relative timeline.

also aldo

still really want to punch RTD for the "ONE WILL DIE...ONE WILL STILL DIE..." garbage

I agree that the solutions everyone found to the scrapes they got into (i.e. the pendant, i.e. Donna pushing a few buttons) were unbelievably uninteresting. The whole point to putting your heroes in scrapes is to see how they get out of them, but this finale just sort of forgot to show the cleverness of its heroes - it didn't let us get involved in their solutions.

On the other hand, the Daleks are just the sort of overconfident assholes who would have a control panel in the corner whose only function appear to be to blow them, up one by one.

them up, one

i liked Jackie using her teleport to escape the group who then got de-atomised but the way Sarah Jane managed to sneak away from the pack in front of Daleks everywhere and into a conveniently placed stationery closet was F-

AA you're missing my point. It would have been piss easy not to have fallen into this problem. It only exists because he's trying to be a smart arsed twat.

Frankly, I don't care how many other people noticed this although almost all of fandom did, oh no, wait, Rusty's done a real life handwave and decided they're not fans. So do fans count or not? If so, why bollocks up something simple? If not, why throw in references to the First Doctor's descriptions of Gallifrey? Or SPACE CRABS? You can't have it both ways. Plus way to insult the viewing populace.

I thought Doctor Who episodes all just took place in a sort of "now-ish" time. I didn't realize there was supposed to be a logical sequence.

next you'll be telling me that James Bond is always the same guy in all the films

ARGH DON'T START IT WITH THE JAMES BOND THING AGAIN!

Aldo that entire timeline hinges on dating Rose as April 2005 which is never actually stated as far as I can tell.

Actually what am I talking about none of this even remotely matters.

(Also The Stolen Earth happening after Dalek is considerably less of a continuity blooper than the Stolen Earth happening several years before Dalek as originally assumed).

There's obviously supposed to be a logical sequence because Rusty put it there. All the links I have made above are from transmitted bits of dialogue i.e. purposefully written. Interestingly, all by Rusty (except Lazarus Experiment) so he can't even blame other people getting it wrong.

yes it is. but they have strived for continuity in Who what with all the flashbacks and tying things together, so clarification would be handy. xp

I agree with Hand, about scrapes, solutions, time, etc.

I still don't agree with others about the romantic finale. I think this is mildly interesting as an example of difference between fan and floating viewer, who in this case has only seen this episode of the entire series (but did see previous series with these characters). Possibly fan is a better viewer and has more right to opinion, etc? I'm not sure, though. I don't think my not being a fan makes me susceptible to romantic twaddle. I didn't really think it was twaddle, or that all romance = Mills & Boon. I just thought it was quite nice to see that potential story resolved.

Claim upthread that Doc will not have human genitalia because he is not human seems bonkers - he has human eyes, hair, body in general after all, so why not those? Especially as this version of him is half-human.

No, The End Of The World explicitly states Rose is in 2005, as do the 'Missing Girl' posters in Aliens Of London (which, similarly, firmly date that in 2006).

Possibly fan is a better viewer and has more right to opinion, etc?

Not like you to disingenuously claim something which no-one has said, eh?

Okay but why is The Stolen Earth taking place two months after Dalek a problem again?

because of the events of Doomsday too?

Pinefox, there's a far too long explanation that involves Gallifreyans not actually having sex but it's too fannish for here. The simple answer is there's no reason to assume they have genitals is because they don't need them, and if they did have them then after millennia of lack of use it's difficult to consider this set actually becoming functional again. Also, if he got his idea of what it was to be human from Donna, just as likely to have a vagina.

Matt, it's a problem for the reverse reason you said it was earlier. UNIT, with their all-knowing secret powers, at no point think "Hang on, this is just like that thing in that top secret museum base thing, where's that BIG FUCK OFF GUN that The Doctor built in there to kill it?"