Let's talk about Vice Magazine

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sterling you do realize that nigger and nigga are two completely different words right?? i dont think ive ever heard a racist use 'nigga', its always used fondly because its a really fun word and one, in my experience, that 'black people' very much DO 'use when talking to people who arent' ie ME

― s trife (simon_tr), Monday, 14 October 2002 17:25 (twenty-three years ago)

(it seems like a basic question, i know, but i'm interested in the answer.)

i mean, is it primarily because you would fear for your safety or because you would fear offending somebody?

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 14 October 2002 17:30 (twenty-three years ago)

Do you use it, though?

― Jody Beth Rosen, Monday, 14 October 2002 17:33 (twenty-three years ago)

simon, that's a handy distinction, but one that most racists don't respect or even notice. Also if it's really that different a word why does it still rhyme with "trigger"? Also cf. Tom's "legalizing arrows" point some white kid got pissed with his (black) teacher in San Jose and wrote "thanks n-a" on the wall and he got busted but then got off coz the lawyer argued it wasn't hateful speech since he used the "affectionate" spelling.

I mean like that's like if I say "I'm gonna kill you" and you say "man, stop threatening me" and I'm all like "no way, if I meant it I would have said 'going to' instead of 'gonna' because the two are completely different"

haha graham to thread!

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 14 October 2002 17:35 (twenty-three years ago)

(i WAS wondering if those guys were actually pronouncing n****(*) the way it got transcribed... seems unlikely, but if so they are more deluded than i thought)

in answer to the thread title: on second thought, let's not

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 14 October 2002 17:38 (twenty-three years ago)

sure jbr, not in mixed company because of the reactions of people like sterling, but yeah its just another piece of rap slang, i dont tell my grandmother her macaroni is off the motherfucking chain either but if im with hiphop people sure no big deal

gah sterling got in while i was posting, one moment dude!!

― s trife (simon_tr), Monday, 14 October 2002 17:40 (twenty-three years ago)

actually, that's a better question: how long has it been since hip-hop re-appropriated the n-word? ten years, at least? and if the byproduct of such tireless re-appropriation is allegedly a wholesale, across the board shift of meaning, then why would you be uncomfortable at all?

is it because there's still work to do? i mean, do we need oprah to start referring to martha stewart as "my nigga" before this wonderful utopian cleansing can begin? and if she did, and the word became as ordinary and as torpid as "lampshade", would that be a good thing?

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 14 October 2002 17:40 (twenty-three years ago)

I like Vice.

― geeta (geeta), Monday, 14 October 2002 17:46 (twenty-three years ago)

anyway no its not a reappropiation, its not an affectionate spelling, THEYRE TWO DIFFERENT WORDS, sterl your 'gonna' comparison is the stupidest ever, the intent to kill is whats important, KILL is the operative word, gonna means the same as going to anyway, in nigger vs nigga THATS the operative word, thats the thing to get offended about, its like if you got asked about a mc and you were like 'yeah he killed onstage' and you meant LYRICALLY, maybed its a dumb thing to say if its an important murder-related situation but it doesnt mean you secretly think the dude murdered anybody, nigger means bad, nigga means good or neutral

― s trife (simon_tr), Monday, 14 October 2002 17:47 (twenty-three years ago)

do we need oprah to start referring to martha stewart as "my nigga"

U+K! U+K! U+K! U+K!

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 14 October 2002 17:50 (twenty-three years ago)

But if they're two different words, how come you won't say "nigga" in mixed company?

― Jody Beth Rosen, Monday, 14 October 2002 17:51 (twenty-three years ago)

simon are you thick? words don't HAVE fixed meanings.

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 14 October 2002 17:51 (twenty-three years ago)

U+K! U+K! U+K! U+K!

heh. i totally don't get it.

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 14 October 2002 17:52 (twenty-three years ago)

Okay let's make this more interesting:

what "good" qualities might n-a with an "a" signify, simon?

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 14 October 2002 17:53 (twenty-three years ago)

"U+K! U+K! U+K! U+K!" = "It is URGENT and KEY that Oprah Winfrey begin referring to Martha Stewart as 'my nigga' as soon as humanly possible; in fact, the fate of the world may rest on getting this to occur."

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 14 October 2002 17:56 (twenty-three years ago)

jbr i just fucking told you, lots of people, like sterling, bug out if you say nigga, i know this, its the same reason i wouldnt say fuck or cunt in mixed company

sterl you know what nigga with an a means, you listen to rap, do you really not 'get' it every time its mentioned? its my crew, i love my niggas, thats all there is, sometimes ill talk about some nigga im impressed by, 'that nigga beat me at street fighter twelve times!!', its a term of love and respect, and ill bet anything vice dudes were saying nigga, theres a pretty long history of totally square news herbs not knowing theres such a word and transcribing it as nigger instead

― s trife (simon_tr), Monday, 14 October 2002 17:56 (twenty-three years ago)

New York Press: "Don’t you get hostile being in this neighborhood every day?"

GM: "Well, at least they’re not fucking niggers or Puerto Ricans. At least they’re white."

(Yeah, real affectionate.)

― Jody Beth Rosen, Monday, 14 October 2002 18:05 (twenty-three years ago)

tracer already explained that joke you retard

― s trife (simon_tr), Monday, 14 October 2002 18:07 (twenty-three years ago)

Is "retard" affectionate too?

― Jody Beth Rosen, Monday, 14 October 2002 18:08 (twenty-three years ago)

well i am guilty of using the term 'retard' affectionately but i am a bad sample choice

― geeta (geeta), Monday, 14 October 2002 18:09 (twenty-three years ago)

btw simon the correct spelling of 'nigga' is not listed in the associated press stylebook (just checked) so i think they'd leave it alone, but chances are they probably wouldn't print it in the first place

― totally square news herb (geeta), Monday, 14 October 2002 18:15 (twenty-three years ago)

Regardless of the context, regardless of the variation, I will not use *those two* words. I have been called those words many times, both affectionately and negatively. I suppose the door has been open for me to use those words and not get my ass kicked, but it's a door I choose not to go through; I don't feel it's my duty to help twist the meaning of them.

― Andy K (Andy K), Monday, 14 October 2002 18:17 (twenty-three years ago)

i used the word 'ass' in an article last week (it was a direct quote from an attorney!!) and my reporting prof was all, "you shouldn't print that" etc etc

but it was a really good quote!!

― geeta (geeta), Monday, 14 October 2002 18:17 (twenty-three years ago)

jbr maybe you should stay away from jokes that dont use your beloved < / sarcasm > tag, im out of this bullshit thread

― s trife (simon_tr), Monday, 14 October 2002 18:19 (twenty-three years ago)

fanta baby c or d

― boxcubed (boxcubed), Monday, 14 October 2002 18:22 (twenty-three years ago)

aw!

come back, simon!!

― geeta (geeta), Monday, 14 October 2002 18:23 (twenty-three years ago)

well i am guilty of using the term 'retard' affectionately but i am a bad sample choice

I use it too, out of habit. I guess it's offensive, but this country doesn't really have a long and rich tradition of Retard Persecution, so it's not quite as bad as any of the other loaded words.

― Jody Beth Rosen, Monday, 14 October 2002 18:24 (twenty-three years ago)

simon you're claiming "n-a" is race-neutral, right? clearly the vice dudes don't do it that way. & i don't "misread" it every time I hear it but I still want to hear you explain *for you* (becuz I don't think there's any broad common agreement here, at least not an explicit one) what possitive qualities "n-a" connotes and also if you think it is race neutral.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 14 October 2002 18:25 (twenty-three years ago)

jbr maybe you should stay away from jokes that dont use your beloved < / sarcasm > tag, im out of this bullshit thread

It's not like you ever pick up on when I'm being sarcastic, but whatev.

― Jody Beth Rosen, Monday, 14 October 2002 18:28 (twenty-three years ago)

I use it too, out of habit. I guess it's offensive, but this country doesn't really have a long and rich tradition of Retard Persecution, so it's not quite as bad as any of the other loaded words.

or is it that it's more easily co-opted because they're not able to defend themselves?

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 14 October 2002 18:34 (twenty-three years ago)

or is it that it's more easily co-opted because they're not able to defend themselves?

That's true too -- although there are varying degrees of retardation. Some "retards" are normal, functional people; some of them have fairly decent cognitive skills and might very well understand what "retard" means. But there isn't much they can do to stop the epithet from being used.

― Jody Beth Rosen, Monday, 14 October 2002 18:40 (twenty-three years ago)

It's weird cos 'retard'/'spastic' etc are much less acceptable in the uk I think. Im still a bit shocked when I see US people using them so much.

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 14 October 2002 18:44 (twenty-three years ago)

tom it's undergone this weird renaissance in the last 3-4 years where it's become completely acceptable again. i'll admit that i was guilty of using it absent-mindedly until being (rightfully) chastised by a friend whose close relative had down's syndrome.

jbr, if we accept that this word is commonly used b/c the ramifications are far less severe than if we were to use, for example, the n word with similar abandon, i think we could probably draw some ugly conclusions about society in general...

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 14 October 2002 18:48 (twenty-three years ago)

But there isn't much they can do to stop the epithet from being used.

Apparantly they should get their arty friends to publish articles in a magazine that make reference to their retard friends.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 14 October 2002 18:49 (twenty-three years ago)

"kickin it with all my retards"

i have heard white guys called nigga by black guys and by other white guys HOWEVER it's not "race-neutral" and never could be, i mean look at the word! in this case it's like "you're an honorary black dude for the time being and what's more, i like ya"

BUT simon "nigga" can also be negative, it's not like kids switch pronunciations when they're chasing after the dude who just swiped their book-bag

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 14 October 2002 18:53 (twenty-three years ago)

Sometimes I wonder why I don't find "retard" more offensive on a gut level when people use it to refer to non-retards who are just acting dumb. I should. My half-brother is retarded and I used to get teased about that a lot when I was a kid -- so for a long time I've lived with the idea that people have a strange sort of scorn for the mentally handicapped, and maybe I've just come to accept it.

― Jody Beth Rosen, Monday, 14 October 2002 18:58 (twenty-three years ago)

why is everyone i like most on ilx expressing the dumbest fucking opinions on this thread?

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 14 October 2002 18:59 (twenty-three years ago)

(haha because i've possibly overestimated the intelligence of these people?)

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 14 October 2002 19:01 (twenty-three years ago)

Ain't nothing wrong with disagreement.

Vice makes me laugh, which is more than most things do these days.

― geeta (geeta), Monday, 14 October 2002 19:03 (twenty-three years ago)

Hank Kingsley to the Wu-Tang Clan: "My favourite is 'Shame On A Nigga'". Is Hank part of the great reclamation project?

I 'love' a white guy living in Japan telling black guys in New York that they're wrong to object to these white guys using the word 'nigger' and trying to act like the black men are being patronising! Hilarious irony!

My best gay friend likes and uses the word faggot, but the wrong person uses it the wrong way, in the wrong tone, he's liable to break them in half.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 14 October 2002 19:04 (twenty-three years ago)

what cogent argument, geeta.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 14 October 2002 19:05 (twenty-three years ago)

they do not agree with jess = they are dumb obv

― geeta (geeta), Monday, 14 October 2002 19:05 (twenty-three years ago)

Ok, I'm gonna run away from this thread now.

― geeta (geeta), Monday, 14 October 2002 19:06 (twenty-three years ago)

jess goddamn it now everyone on this thread either thinks you don't like them or that you think their opinions are very dumb. way to alienate everyone in one fell stroke.

(actually I just posted that because I wonder where I fall)

[also I tried to call you a "f-g" as a joke right here and I couldn't do it, not evern doubly or triply ironically or whatever the hell it would be at this point].

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 14 October 2002 19:07 (twenty-three years ago)

"it is funny" = it is not an argument which effectively refutes its more noxious, questionable qualities with me, no.

sterl, if you have to ask you'll never know, etc etc.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 14 October 2002 19:08 (twenty-three years ago)

so much of this discussion reminds me of riot grrrl imagery -- where they attempted to establish a 'look' for themselves placing traditional female imagery and once-derogatory slogans into the context of punk rock clothing started off as sly commentary, but were soon co-opted by companies looking to make a buck off 'princess' and 'i stole your boyfriend' t-shirts for 11-year-olds. (see also: the wholesale erasure-of-SLUT-from-bare-midriff that made gwen stefani so initially successful.)

so wouldn't that sort of cycle be eventually repeated if the arguments momus espouses hold true -- and wouldn't the underlying message of these mass-marketed uses of these words, then, also mutate into an affirmation of already-existing prejuidices that are held by the majority of americans, for the simple purpose of making as many dollars as possible?

― maura (maura), Monday, 14 October 2002 19:26 (twenty-three years ago)

maura stop being so fucking queer.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 14 October 2002 19:28 (twenty-three years ago)

I dunno, I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who ran a college humor magazine for three years that had some parallels with Vice. Granted, it was less glossy, and it had more bad jokes about Nazis, but I was damn proud of it because at least we worked really hard at it. When you start continually falling into the trap of "Huh huh that's gay" or whatever, I would blame them more for a desperate lack of originality than for tastelessness or malice. Writing good tasteless jokes isn't easy.

― geeta (geeta), Monday, 14 October 2002 19:30 (twenty-three years ago)

i had a dream the other night that i was watching mtv with someone and there was this old hole video on (it was "miss world" i think, but that doesnt't really matter since the song was completely different.) so c. love was gyrating around and she had these huge breasts and kept flashing her vagina (it was shaved), to which i exclaimed "my god!" repeatedly, more shocked/horrified than excited. i said to my viewing companion: "it's hard to wonder now how anyone ever fell for this as some sort of feminist statement."

i don't know how this fits with maura's statement but i don't want the dream lost forever. (her coochie is still burned into my memory.)

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 14 October 2002 19:32 (twenty-three years ago)

Also, datapointwise, let me note that I have never had a black person argue strongly with me when I asked them not to use the word 'round me, while I have had numerous heated arguments with people who aren't black about the word.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 14 October 2002 19:34 (twenty-three years ago)

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