Lost Season 6 - RE: LA X

well he just asked Sayid what time it was, no advice there.

oh come on, clearly asking the time is a wakeup call to evaluate yr life and realize it's ~time~ to go back

Apparently Kate can never be the only sexy available chick on the show. Boone's useless sister -> Ana Lucia -> Nikki -> Juliet -> Claire.

It seems like the main character of each episode is going to have their wishes come true in the new timeline. First ep: Jack wanted to have the plane crash never happen. 2nd ep: Kate wants to reunite Claire and Aaron.

hurley gets to eat that hot pocket instead of throwing it at the wall

Fake Locke is sexy, says my mum.

I might've been confused when watching, but it seemed like Ethan called Claire's baby Aaron without being told that's what its name was going to be. Did anyone else catch this or am I just making it up?

hurley gets to eat that hot pocket instead of throwing it at the wall

Genuine LOL here.

Claire called him Aaron first.

thanks

Sorry - that was terse b/c I was typing on the phone. When the heart beat stopped she started yelling something either about or to the baybeee and that's when she called him Aaron, and Dr. Ethan repeated the name to her after that.

I think sayid being claimed is definitely mib related. I don't think it's that complicated to suggest that's his way around the ash etc either. I mean it's not complicated is it?

I sort of instantly thought it was mib when sayid woke up. Not sure it'll be the same deal as Locke tho.

V curious about ben summoning smokey when the mercenaries were around. Did the others cut some deal with him at some point?

does smokey have some kind of deal with widmore?
i mean, that seems like a way to get shit done off-island...
maybe they made a deal since smokey couldn't leave but widmore had to?

yeah in the whole sides of the war thing you've got to imagine the ben/widmore feud splits down smokey/jacob lines too

But Smokey killed most of the soldiers Widmore sent to the island.

I think sayid being claimed is definitely mib related. I don't think it's that complicated to suggest that's his way around the ash etc either. I mean it's not complicated is it?

Seems reasonable. What I thought was too complicated was the idea that MIB appeared to Hurley as Jacob.

smokey/MIB appears as dead people throughout the show & jacob just died

yeah I mean I don't necessarily know what side smokey would be on...just saying it seems that "war" must be related somehow

question begs if jacob was 'people' to begin with though

x-post MIB appearing as Jacob isn't complicated in that I can't conceive of it, but it's narratively complicated in that the audience is going to lose track of who is who (more so than usual) and you'll have to have someone explaining how he could in the foot and appearing to Hurley at the same time. It would just be unnecessarily stupid.

But Smokey killed most of the soldiers Widmore sent to the island.
i was thinkin freighter people who got killed by smokey was him 'helping' - less worry about answering ?s to them if/when they left the island, etc. i know it's a stretch...

hurley gets to eat that hot pocket instead of throwing it at the wall

This inspired me to wade through the massive sprawl of the S5 thread & repost this timeless gem:

http://i44.tinypic.com/2n1c31c.gif

Bram and shadow of the statue people tell Miles before he gets on the freighter that he's joining the wrong side. So the people who turn out to be Jacob's people are opposed to widmore. The smoke monster destroys widmore's freighter crew, indicating that he is also opposed to widmore. The smoke monster did this at the behest of the others, who are acolytes of jacob.

But then it turns out that the smoke monster and jacob are opponents in this war. Also, it turns out that the others are aware of this, and are afraid of him.

Perhaps this isn't inconsistent and there is a reasonable explanation for this. More likely, I think they've been making up shit as they went along, at least to some extent, even as late as season five. I've come to accept this and don't think it's a big deal, just turning my mind off to the narrative inconsistencies (of which there are many more) and enjoying the ridiculous ott shit that this show throws at you in an entertaining way. My favorite thing about this show is how much I enjoy talking about it, and even the aspects that are criticisable only make it kind of more fun in that regard.

Also re: Jacob appearing to Hurley being a manifestation of MIB. I think that would be a mistake in terms of just the show degenerating into gratuitous swerves for the sake of gratuitous swerves, at the expense of good storytelling. Some twists and surprises along the way are entertaining, but when you start overdoing it, it just kind of cheapens the story. This would probably even be cheaper than the episode where Sun had her baby and they were showing Jin flashbacks which they were implying were contemporaneous. Worse because it would be more consequential.

what about when ben "activates" the smoke monster (or was that what you were talking about)? and referring to it as the temple's security system?

This would probably even be cheaper than the episode where Sun had her baby and they were showing Jin flashbacks which they were implying were contemporaneous. Worse because it would be more consequential.

― Mister Jim, Saturday, February 13, 2010 3:44 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

that was an awesome episode

I still think the scene where Ben activates the Smoke monster indicates that he did not know that it was Jacob's enemy (he knew next to nothing about Jacob) and Smokey was exploiting Richard's keeping-of-stuff from Ben to turn him to its side--though the writers ended up taking a slightly different path.

This would probably even be cheaper than the episode where Sun had her baby and they were showing Jin flashbacks which they were implying were contemporaneous. Worse because it would be more consequential.

― Mister Jim, Saturday, February 13, 2010 3:44 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

that was an awesome episode

If that was an awesome episode (can't remember what else happened), it wasn't cause of anything that happened in the scenes involving Jin and Sun. The Jin flashbacks are completely pointless, but to for the fact that they play with people's expectations. They really don't accomplish anything else but kill time. And even the Sun scenes are kind of boring, especially on rewatch. Sun having a baby isn't really that compelling, at least not to me.

Also, President Keyes, I guess I agree that it's not necessarily inconsistent if Smokey is trying to manipulate Ben by exploiting his ignorance, but it makes you wonder how Ben knew how to summon the smoke monster in the first place and why he thought it was the temple security system, which after the last episode seems completely crazy.

I think Jacob had Smokey under control somehow ("do you have any idea how badly I want to kill you?"), hence Ben being able to summon it earlier. But now that Jacob bit it, Smokey is no longer controlled, so the Temple dudes are running scared.

if you can't stand bait and switch moves that deliberately play with your expectations, or emotionally manipulative stories that don't contribute much to the big picture, i don't know you lasted into season 4 to even see that episode.

If that was an awesome episode (can't remember what else happened), it wasn't cause of anything that happened in the scenes involving Jin and Sun.

I dunno, it did a nice job of contrasting between two periods of Sun and Jin being apart from each other: one because of his work, and the other because she thought he was dead. To me, that basic story contrast was really nice, but like every other character on the show, they've driven it into the ground.

Hopefully the next time Sun and Jin are reunited will be the last -- although we may be headed for Jin and Sun getting separated in the flash-sideways considering how cold they were to each other.

i had a thought that when richard told sun that jin 'died in the fire' maybe it was the explosion and not something else... so maybe they are gonna drag out the reuniting for a long time, esp since jin may end up back under temple lock and key.

if you can't stand bait and switch moves that deliberately play with your expectations, or emotionally manipulative stories that don't contribute much to the big picture, i don't know you lasted into season 4 to even see that episode.

No the thing is though that 4 seasons of flashbacks involving the originals is more than enough. There's a reason we haven't seen any flash-backs involving the original cast since season 3, except for those Jin ones. They bring nothing to the table. Nothing new about the character. Nothing new about the plot. Just, a little, "Hey, ya got me again Carlton. Good for you." moment. I mean, such little pay-off really. Also, once the series started moving with a purpose, this kind of stuff became harder to take.

I think Jacob had Smokey under control somehow ("do you have any idea how badly I want to kill you?"), hence Ben being able to summon it earlier. But now that Jacob bit it, Smokey is no longer controlled, so the Temple dudes are running scared.

This is a good thought. I gotta think about it.

But then it turns out that the smoke monster and jacob are opponents in this war. Also, it turns out that the others are aware of this, and are afraid of him.

Thanks for summarizing something that's always bugged me, that every time you think Widmore's on Jacob's side, you're thrown by a piece of contradictory information. I'm hoping they give us some info on what Widmore actually knows about Jacob and MIB, since at this point I have to assume he knows more than Ben. The whole 'there's a war coming' foreshadowing makes no sense when you follow everyone's actions.

One thing that might save it, and I still think they might do this, is establish that at some point MIB was mistaken for Jacob or vice-versa (Ilana's 'Jacob hasn't been in the cabin for a long time'). Widmore could have been fooled into thinking that Jacob wanted Locke back on the island whereas MIB wanted him back but only as a corpse.

see to me it feels more and more likely that Widmore will just be whitewashed out of the big picture as a kind of incidental party that came & went on the island w/o having much interaction with or knowledge of Jacob/MIB and only having direct conflict with Ben/Dharma

that would be too bad. i'm hoping his links with farraday and his mom and dharma and desmond and penny will bring him back around.

i'm still hoping for more hanso though, so...

I'm pretty certain Widmore's back if only to pay off the 'I'll get you boy' stuff. And I do think that he has more knowledge about Jacob/MIB, because he had a plan to get people to the island, get people off it, assemble a team, pay some mercenaries, collect Locke, etc etc etc. Ben has mostly been a lone actor with no plan other than just thwarting Widmore becoming island king. He spent his time off-island just having people associated with Widmore whacked. Widmore seems to know that there are forces at work larger than himself or Ben's disputes about who should be in charge of the Others.

Agreed... I don't know if we're ever going to get any more real backstory on Widmore, it just doesn't feel like we're going to have time, but he definitely seems more clued in than Ben did. Or at least, more ambitious about using the power of the island for more purposes than just running The Others, since he did somehow amass a fortune and power outside of the island for decades.

Happy Valentimes, Lost Thread-ers:
http://www.sl-lost.com/2010/02/14/happy-lost-valentines-day/

Agreed... I don't know if we're ever going to get any more real backstory on Widmore, it just doesn't feel like we're going to have time, but he definitely seems more clued in than Ben did. Or at least, more ambitious about using the power of the island for more purposes than just running The Others, since he did somehow amass a fortune and power outside of the island for decades.

Yeah, seems to me that Ben is too emotionally overdetermined and tortured to have much of an agenda beyond maintaining power and obsessing over his mother's death (Alpert's disdain for Ben using the Others as a fertility research group). At some point they're going to have to bring Widmore back to show what the heck motivates him, and what he knows about the island's history (he did go after the Black Rock journal at auction). We may never get backstory beyond that but that would be plenty for me.

If MIB is imitating the dead Jacob, that would mean that he has access to all of Jacob's memories, which means that MIB knows Jacob's whole plan and can stop it (maybe by explaining Jacob's plan to people in a way that makes Jacob look like a manipulative dictator). If MIB had centuries to plan out a way to get close to Jacob and have him killed, Jacob's also had the same amount of time to plan for that eventuality and assemble people to contain MIB in the event of Jacob's death.

Thinking about it more--While Jacob was alive, Smokey must have been enslaved to him, and to the Others as well(to an extent), which is why Ben was able to use him to take out Widmore's men. If Smokey had no choice in the matter, then he could still be in league with Widmore (or at least not hostile to him.) Ben may or may not have known that Smokey was Jacob's enemy--probably thought of it as a dangerous force not to be used lightly. But Richard & Dogen must know that Jacob's death means that Smokey has been freed of its chains--thus all the freaking out at the Temple when they found out Jacob was dead.

It's very possible that Ben has been totally played and manipulated by Smokey Dude from the off.

Almost certainly. Up until Ben and Locke visited the cabin in S3, it was clear that Ben had never spoken to Jacob ever - so really, he never even met him until the S5 finale. The dude in the chair screaming "Help me!" was probably Smokey/Esau, right? Seems like all of the cabin appearance were in fact the nemesis and not Jacob, since every time Jacob appeared (as we saw in the flashbacks in the S5 finale) he appeared as himself.

no, the cabin was surrounded by that protective dust

btw dudes i started watching season 1 again (i'd only seen bits and pieces when it first aired) and it is RAD... every episode seems bigger and more widescreen and more momentous. still dig what the show's been up to lately but wow, it's never been that good since.

Who was it who broke the protective dust? Do we even know yet?

yeah it does seem to have lost that widescreen-ness about it - the only time you ever see them do that kind of cinematography now is in season finales. also i think it's because the show used to pose a lot of "big" questions - "where are we?" "who are we?" "fate or coincidence" etc. - and now they're bogged down with smaller questions like "what's richard's deal?", "is sayid jacob or the MIB?", "what's smokey?". xpost

You're probably right s1ocki, I thought Season 4 (Freighter/Widmore/Oceanic 6/Miles, Faraday, Frank, Charlotte/The Constant, The Economist, The Shape of Things to Come) came pretty close. Also S2 is a bit underrated, I think.

Roz, you're probably right too - I do miss those epic confrontations and larger questions. The funny thing is though the hardcore fans still demand a ton of these answers that we're never going to get (myself often included). Do we really need an exact explanation for what Smokey or the Numbers are, even? I think most of it can just be shuffled off like how Michael couldn't kill himself because the Island wouldn't let him... just gotta roll with it.

finally caught up btw. heck of a ride

Circle of ash could have been keeping smokey in the cabin rather than outside it