Lost Season 6 - RE: LA X

unlocke does say "sorry you had to see me like that" which kinda suggests him and smokey are the exact same dude. also not sure if smokey coming from the temple is in any way a fact as such. and even if it is who says he didn't come from there and travel to the statue, he did enter via the door!

Yeah what threw me off was that UnLocke disappeared and then smokey entered from outside and I'm kinda wondering what UnLocke's word is worth on that one--more manipulation or I dunno what. He seemed surprised in last season's finale when Ben told him what went down between him in his meeting w/ smokey under the temple.

I sort of assumed that was MIB just acting shocked to fool them as he was believed to be Locke. Just cos appearing as Alex seems to be his modus operandi. what is weird tho is how ben was able to summon smokey before too...

I think it was in his interest back then for Ben to think that he, as Island Leader, was a guy to follow, rather than some crazy smoke monster. Now the cat's out of the bag.

(Maybe part of what makes all these Locke-exits-smokey-enters scenes happen is that they're saving the expensive MIB-turns-into-smokey CGI shots for later in the season.)

Looks as if he's been trapped by some sort of Jacob mojo and has to come when the others call, hangs out in the basement of the Temple Others, etc. Now the only thing he has to worry about is circles of ash and how the heck to get off the island. Was MIB once a person, who became sort of a living electromagnetic field? Bullets dent when they hit him.

Loved Montand's copy of Kierkegaard

Long post alert...

I agree that it's pretty bullshit to describe Lost as primarily character-driven. OK, their stories were interesting in Seasons 1 and 2 but as mentioned above, on the whole they're pretty one-dimensional and/or impulsive. The better characters are those that kind of admit this - Hurley, Sawyer, etc.

As an example, much as I love Sayid he's mainly great because he's had a gruesome backstory and can do neckbreakdancing. The only thing I know about his character is that he loves Nadia, he's good with electronics and at one point cared about thinking strategically about their situation on the island, and that sometimes he's sorry for what he's done (although still might carry on doing it). So if I think about him in other situations, where these factors aren't relevant as motivations, I don't really know anything about him. Also him and Shannon was plain weird.

Jack basically has no character apart from being confused/conflicted quite a lot of the time, and only "develops" when he does a 180-degree change of heart about the island. I don't really care about his daddy issues. Same with Kate, she's never really shown any interest in finding out how they travelled through time or anything. I'm not saying they don't have touching moments in their backstories, or that their actions can't be explained, I just think there's a lack of proper self-examination with them. In some ways I guess I like that Jack's the lead male despite having no exciting characteristics, but everything he does just annoys me.

That said, I'm sure the writers aren't unaware of this, as they led us up the garden path a bit with Locke and then showed quite clearly that he was "nothing special". I hated him as a character around season 3, when he was just acting on blind faith, but now he's come the distance I like what they did with him. (Or maybe... he was Smokey all along!)

I don't mind that much about all this, as I care a lot more about the story than watching a character-study. I think the parallel time line thing was a pretty smart answer to the question of whether they were going to reset or not. And is kind of par for the course with any time-travel stuff. I'm actually wondering whether this season will end up with more parallel timelines, as the characters are driven to take desperate measures to reset everything in each one. (This would be pretty unsatisfying, though).

I can suspend my disbelief happily with time travel storylines, and to start off with I appreciated that they were taking a clear stance on "whatever happened, happened" as this simplifies an already overcomplicated plot quite significantly (as opposed to having multiple possible future changes with every tiny action they do in the past).
What I don't like is that it all kind of falls down with a few sub-Dr-Who deus ex machina crap pivotal moments, particularly the disappearing off the plane into different timelines thing. As mentioned upthread, the show suffers from trying to be all things to all people and ending up in a bit of a mess.

I think in the S5 finale, when Miles is all "ermm... you guys didn't consider that the bomb might be what causes your plane-crash timeline to happen?" is pretty significant - no-one does really consider that, although everything else so far that they've tinkered with has turned out to be "whatever happened, happened". The only different here is that you're throwing a bigger rock into the stream of time, to use Faraday's analogy. What counts as big enough?

Anyway... in conclusion, the above mentioned facts have led me to believe that I enjoyed the first eps of s6 and have high hopes for this season!

Jack basically has no character apart from being confused/conflicted quite a lot of the time, and only "develops" when he does a 180-degree change of heart about the island. I don't really care about his daddy issues

IOW, because you don't care about the biggest factor that drives Jack's character, he doesn't have much of one.

True, I guess, but I'm not sure that his daddy issues can be said to drive everything. And if they do, well, that's a great example of a one-dimensional character right there.

Backpedalling a bit, maybe, but Jack does have some anti-hero characteristics which could be interesting in the situations he's put in. I think the show has given a lot of time to flashbacks etc that just add nothing to his character (tattoo episode as a classic eg) or have him make others act on impulse/ doesn't worry about thinking through the full implications of what he does, so I kind of get the impression that there's nothing there to "get".

I always saw Jack's character a being antiheroic in that his 'heroic' or 'saving' actions are unconsciously self-serving. Of course this isn't lost on us, the audience, or the characters - Sawyer beats him up in S5 finale because he sees Jack is willing to jeopardize everyone to avoid some painful emotions. This would have worked better as a character arc if Jack had had some sort of growth over time, but he's exactly the same at the end of S5 as he is in S1, he's just outwardly calmer and more resigned.

Agreed, and the S5 finale example is classic imo, because it's almost psychopathic - Jack didn't understand or really try to understand what he was doing when bombing the island even though it's probably the biggest jeopardy you can put people in! Just "oh Faraday seemed to think this would work, I'm the leader so let's give it a try". Yes sheer desperation was a motivator, or belief that the island would sort it all out, but I still don't really buy whether Jack believes that, or what he believes, really.

I hadn't thought of Jack as a psychopath, but you're right, he's really close! I was trying to get something out of his 'nothing's irreversible' comment to Locke in the alt, I'm not sure if the writers are telegraphing that he's exactly the same, or that he's changed somewhat in the alt. You could take that comment either way.

I have to say though that setting him up as the hero in the pilot, only to have the audience and characters realize that he may be insanely self-absorbed or deluded, is a pretty neat idea. I know they have to 'redeem' him in some way, but we're kinda running out of time here ...

This is why Kate and Jack belong together! They're both psychopaths with tunnel vision! Seriously. I think the endgame will have these ideas heavily in mind. Whether the characters will be effectively redeemed... not so sure about that. (Or if the writers even want to.)

The "Nothing's irreversible" line struck me as a geniunely hopeful, compassionate moment - as opposed to his constant need to be everybody's savior in the original timeline - I think Jack was supposed to be genuinely changed in that world.

Maybe the missing coffin telegraphs the absence of daddy issues/tormented selfloathing in the altJack.

Hmm, not a bad observation!

I don't think Kate is psycho. She is certainly sociopathic, though; it is very interesting contrasting her as escaped fugitive to her as island heroine; almost as if the island allowed her to finally integrate into a society.

I just think it gave her an opportunity to run away from something every half hour.

Hmm, not a bad observation!

Thanks! ... which makes me wonder what the missing knives signifies, if anything?

I just think it gave her an opportunity to run away from something every half hour.

Eh, not really; remember, she's the one who integrated back into society and had a normal life after they were rescued.

(also, when they got back Jack walked out on her, not her on him)

xpost I like the potential significance of the missing items!

Tbf also a lot of my dislike for Jack's character is due to the fact that he was the 'eyes of the viewer' to start off with yet seemed to stand in the way of us getting any answers, by not asking the right questions or whatever. Which is a dumb reason admittedly.

Kate's kind of a weird one, I'm not sure what to think about her. She couldn't settle down to taco tuesday or w/evs when she was on the run (pre-crash) yet seemed to take to being a mother and playing house with Jack and really didn't want to go back to the island - doing it for what appears to be a proper, moral reason (to find Claire iirc).

so maybe she has changed/grown up, is what I mean.

Jack's character arc is very similar to Locke's in that they both start out very convinced in what they know and the island then throws body blow after body blow after body blow at them to show them how absolutely, 100% wrong they are. Both are total control freaks who are attempting to sieze control of their own destinies, but the more they try to do so, the more the rug gets pulled out from underneath them and options get taken away, leading them both to decisions that are increasingly arbitrary and erratic. The apotheosis of this for Locke is his death; we'll see what is in store for Jack this season but starting off with accidentally killing your main rival's wife isn't a good harbinger.

Wouldn't you say that Locke was trying to cede control, though? As in, he wanted to be told what to do?

"Don't tell me what I can or can't do!" I'm not sure he wanted to be a puppet, though it was indeed his fate - up until the very end he did believe everything he was doing was his own choice, even if it was basically the orders of "Jacob", he believed in the "island".

^^^ basically my opinion; the fact that he was taking orders doesn't negate the fact that he chose to take orders and felt like he was gaining agency and control with that decision

Def. plays into the choice/destiny themes of the initial Jacob/MIB convo

Kinda paradoxical, yeah - feeling like you're taking control by taking orders

I guess I'm overthinking this - Locke's main topic for seasons was 'this is what I/we/Jack are meant to do', of course

Yeah, Locke's character arc is defined by his ongoing struggle to figure out how where he belonged and what he was supposed to be doing. He finally thought he found that in Jacob and the island, only to have Ben take it away from him.

Ben's got a similar thing going on here, too; you could look at his character arc as basically being the guy who consistently makes exactly the wrong decision and slowly becomes a bitter, twisted man because of it.

I like Arntz's Frank Grimesean character arc.

is christian also mib/smokey? because we saw christian off island once, in season four, when jack briefly returned to being a successful normal doctor. though maybe jack was hallucinating ala hurley, which would fit neatly with his subsequent drug abuse.

re the absence of christian's body in the new timeline, there's still the fact that jack scheduled the funeral services two hours after his flight was scheduled to land, which suggests a guy who's desperate to get something off his back. though maybe in the alt timeline jack's less addled with daddy issues and more just struggling with plain ol grief.

has anyone given thought to the significance of john's successful completion of his walkabout? for a guy who thought the walkabout was going to completely turn his life around, john seemed pretty... ordinary. i don't mean ordinary by john locke standards, i mean he behaved like someone who had just had a rather pleasant vacation. that + the absence of knives suggests that maybe john doesn't struggle with self identity and destiny in this universe? hell, the island's underwater, presumably he doesn't have any business there.

has anyone given thought to the significance of john's successful completion of his walkabout?

He was lying about going on the walkabout. Remember that if he's gone, he never would have been back at the airport to get on that flight.

touche

dude seems pretty mellow for a guy who got kicked off a walkabout. not liking the idea of new locke who lies about his vacations.

Ben's got a similar thing going on here, too; you could look at his character arc as basically being the guy who consistently makes exactly the wrong decision and slowly becomes a bitter, twisted man because of it.

I love the fact that despite his world and reason to live crumbling around him he still feels compelled to lie constantly

I wonder what the limits are to MIB's acquisition of memories. He knows what the person he's imitating thought, and the scene with Eko makes me think he can 'scan' people, but what prevents him from knowing, say, what Dogen knows?

Speaking of Dogen (from Lostpedia): 'Dogen is a very important Zen Buddhism master from the 1200s who is often quoted in Soto Zen works today. He has a preference for Japanese even though most of his contemporaries used Chinese. He built a temple. Like other Zen monks, he's received 'Dharma transmission.' This Dogan/Dogen is the same guy from 1250 Japan and has been on the island since then.'

jack scheduled the funeral services two hours after his flight was scheduled to land

probably the dumbest thing any character has done in the show ever. well done jack didn't think random kate decision could be topped.

the absence of knives suggests that maybe john doesn't struggle with self identity and destiny in this universe?

I thought the alt-timeline Locke seemed much less like angry, flashback Locke and more like SSN 1 island mystic Locke. Perhaps he found peace in some way (and found a handicapped walkabout to go on that started a couple weeks earlier.)

Wheelabout

yeah interested to know how Locke was actually able to do the walkabout

also re Smokey coming into the statue room presumably via the front door...surely Richard and co. outside would've seen this?

yeah interested to know how Locke was actually able to do the walkabout

http://blog.wasteindustrysite.com/the_heap/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/large_atv.jpg

I thought that "nothing is irreversible" line, while telling us something contrasting about alt-Jack, was also a meaningful line about the episode as a whole and everything we had seen in the last two hours. Interesting that immediately afterward, Sayid seemed to rise from the dead. But it's also a strangely apt thing for his character to be saying after landing in LAX, instead of, you know, crashing.

I thought Locke's "they didn't lose your dad They only lost his body" was another significant line. Four major characters have recently died, including the guy speaking the line. Maybe it only foreshadows this sayid business. Maybe something more.

re Smokey coming into the statue room presumably via the front door...surely Richard and co. outside would've seen this?

Er, eh? Smokey = fakelocke. He didn't come in through the front door, he was already in there.

well it came into the room. perhaps it materialised in the corridor or perhaps it came from the temple where it was said to have 'lived' iirc.

or out of the ground sure

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-1qzelSWpE

watched e01 and e02 last night :D