Batman carries on beginning in ... The Dark Knight

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I guess that is true. But I don't remember it looking like a cop car. I think they should have flagged this up much more, let us see the driver properly - because later on this becomes a big plot point (WHAT ARE THE NAMES OF THE CORRUPT COPS? etc), but we don't really have any images or sense of those cops to hang it on.

the pinefox, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 10:41 (fifteen years ago) link

What I wrote about Batman being a fucknut:

As far as moral ambiguity goes, having just read The Dark Knight Returns, The Long Halloween, and Arkham Asylum, which I gather are possibly the most morally fucked of all Batman stories, I have just one thing to say; Bruce Wayne is a fucking psychopath. Bruce Wayne is 2 millimetres away from being a fucknut crazy costumed psychokiller every bit as bad as The Joker. And that 2 millimetres distance is all posited by his own psyche in the "not killing" thing. He dresses as a bat and beats criminals, who, lest we forget, are often driven to crime by bad social politics rather than being inherently nasty or bad or evil, which (politics) Wayne has no interest in getting involved in (despite his money and potential influence) because he'd rather be a nasty, vengeful motherfucker and beat people the fuck up because HE'S A CRAZY VIOLENT FUCKNUT. But he's delusional; he thinks he's a fucking saint, he thinks he's doing the city (world?) a favour by taking down the bad guys. Only thing is, he;s not; he's attracting worse bad guys, by being a great big fucking blazing sign saying "crazy violent fucknuts are welcome in Gotham". He justifies his own nasty, violent, murderous tendencies not by ignoring or dismissing or sublimating or using them to drive acts of good, but by acting them out without going to far, where the only thing that is too far is killing people. So he hospitalises them. He breaks their ribs. He drives them insane with fear. He ninjas the shit out of them in darkened warehouses. Because he's a fucknut. A crazy batshit fucknut. Where do you think the term 'batshit' came from?

The appealing thing about him is that... we all... or a lot of us, at least, have these same violent impulses. When some chav cunt cuts me up in his Max Powered shag wagon car, spilling fumes all over my road, his basebal cap on backwards and his next date-rape victim in his sights, I wish I had a Glock with a silencer in my glove compartment and could cap the little fucker's head off, or cut off his balls so he can't spawn more little social-Darwinist survival-of-the-most-promiscuous-nasty-little-date-rapists spawn to further fuck-up our world. Because, though I may vote liberal and work in education and have gay and black and asian friends and listen to jazz and eat 'world cuisine', at some level, I am a Frank Miller-esque fascist and I want to see scum cleaned up because it's easier than creating / enabling a world that discourages scum from existing. Judge Dredd. Batman. Judge Dredd is just the ultimate acceptance that Batman is more effective than the police who are more effective than benevolent social policy. Batman is the crazy little fucked-up black heart, the ticking mind-clock of batshit violence. Batman is the cunt-kicking, scum-punching, impulse-accepting twitch in all of us. He could go off any minute. he lives in a shitty world and he feels guilty for being above it in his beautiful big old golden palace of Wayne Manor, and his parents may be dead but SUCH PRIVILEGE, AND I'M STILL NOT HAPPY, WHAT'S WRONG WITH ME??!! So he snaps, he breaks, he goes and ninjas fuck out of all the things he can't fix through love, because he doesn't understand love. If only he'd been bought a kitten, he'd be OK.

Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 11:36 (fifteen years ago) link

He dresses as a bat and beats criminals, who, lest we forget, are often driven to crime by bad social politics rather than being inherently nasty or bad or evil

aw, c'mon. what superhero film has ever pretended to be a kitchen sink social study?

darraghmac, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 11:41 (fifteen years ago) link

X-Men. Watchmen. Fantastic Four. Most of them, actually, in one way or another.

Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 11:47 (fifteen years ago) link

I think that's a load of bollocks. Batman is a hero.

the pinefox, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 11:49 (fifteen years ago) link

Also incredibly cliched bollox, like 6th-form fanzine c.1988 bollox ... Martin Skidmore was probably turning down crappy submissions like this 20 years ago.

the pinefox, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 11:50 (fifteen years ago) link

22 years ago 'crappy submissions' like this were being written by Frank Miller. Batman, as I understand him as portrayed by Nolan and the source material Nolan has gone for, is a violent nutcase. Yes, he has 'good intentions' but so do lots of psychos, I'm sure. Batman as total, 100% hero is just as cliched.

Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 11:53 (fifteen years ago) link

in a two hour movie about a man in a cape with lots of cool gadgets and vehicles, where you have to cram in a villain or two with backstory, is it really a fair/valid criticism to say 'we didn't get enough explanation of WHY the violent henchman is a violent henchman! Who's the REAL victim here, people?'.

it's not really why people go to see a batman movie, is it?

batman, in miller's works as far as i've read them, is far from accepted universally as a 100% sane and admirable hero.

darraghmac, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 12:03 (fifteen years ago) link

batman has always been more of a necessary evil kind of hero, which is why he's much more interesting than, say, superman.

darraghmac, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 12:05 (fifteen years ago) link

Also, one thing emphasized in some comics (although this doesn't appear in DK, AA or LH) Bruce Wayne in his public persona is indeed a shiftless layabout - but that's a disguise too! He works behind the scenes through proxies on social programs like free clinics, underprivileged youth, all levels of education, etc. He's careful about the social and political implications of the corporate activity he funds (Lex Luthor has been a rival in this respect.) And so on. This has nothing to do with the movie, of course, which def. tries to have its cake and eat it too by having Wayne recognize Batman as a totally fucking fascist thing that he wants to step away from, but also gives him all the best clothes, chicks and toys.

Oilyrags, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 12:23 (fifteen years ago) link

In the film the chicks are clearly a decoy - there is no evidence that BW does anything with them except stepping out of choppers. Maybe I'm wrong - maybe he is supposed actually to be a womanizer? I didn't really get that impression; he seems hung up on Rachel D anyway.

The word 'fascist' is very carelessly thrown around in discussions like this. Fascism arguably involves a strong state, military spending, law & order, patriotism, perhaps the persecution of minorities. Batman's heroic-crime-fighting-outlaw-secret-identity-vigilante-(who doesn't kill or use a gun) doesn't really have much to do with that, I don't think.

A lame source, perhaps, but the wiki entry on fascism:

"Fascism is a term used to describe authoritarian nationalist political ideologies or mass movements that are concerned with notions of cultural decline or decadence and seek to achieve a millenarian national rebirth by exalting the nation or race, and promoting cults of unity, strength and purity. ... but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: patriotism, nationalism, statism, militarism, totalitarianism, anti-communism, economic planning (including corporatism and autarky), populism, collectivism, autocracy and anti-liberalism (i.e., opposition to political and economic liberalism)."

Most of that has very little to do with Batman, I think. It would make as much sense to call Superman a fascist icon (he's more 'patriotic', after all - Batman almost never refers to America or the nation) - but it probably wouldn't be worth doing that either.

the pinefox, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 12:33 (fifteen years ago) link

Okay, fascism maybe isn't exactly accurate. But he's still a wealthy and powerful guy using his own resources to impose his vision of social order by circumventing the legal and political systems. That's not exactly truth justice and the american way.

Oilyrags, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 12:38 (fifteen years ago) link

Your last point is part of my point: 'truth, justice and the American way' sounds more like a fascist slogan than anything Batman has ever said.

the pinefox, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 12:47 (fifteen years ago) link

In the film the chicks are clearly a decoy - there is no evidence that BW does anything with them except stepping out of choppers. Maybe I'm wrong - maybe he is supposed actually to be a womanizer? I didn't really get that impression; he seems hung up on Rachel D anyway.

this was explained as decoy behaviour in the first nolan batman.

legal system != justice, hence dark, violent, vigilante satisfying superheroes.

darraghmac, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 12:47 (fifteen years ago) link

batman's big i'm-watching-you computer is admirably 'fascist' or at least orwellian (i guess those are difft things)

max, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 13:07 (fifteen years ago) link

people are saying pretty otm things. bale/batman is pretty boring, not particularly sympathetic. joker is fantastic, and far more interesting. maggie g is great. and cute. oldman is similarly good (as usual).

this is really stunning on imax

max, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 13:08 (fifteen years ago) link

Results 1 - 10 of about 97,700 for frank miller fascist. (0.24 seconds)

http://goodcomics.blogspot.com/2006/02/why-frank-miller-is-fascist-writer.html

Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 13:11 (fifteen years ago) link

i thought there were some missteps--overwrought, not-particularly-well-thought-out speeches and dialogue about justice, truth, heroism chief among them--but the filmmaking was so tight and well-paced that i didnt care (or, just as soon as i was getting really annoyed with some bit of dialogue, theyd cut to a sweeping shot of the city)

max, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 13:11 (fifteen years ago) link

Results 1 - 10 of about 2,210,000 for batman comic. (0.31 seconds)

darraghmac, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 13:14 (fifteen years ago) link

You genuinely thought this movie was well-paced, max? It turned downright slovenly in the last 45 minutes.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 13:15 (fifteen years ago) link

yeah by well-paced i mostly meant just as soon as i was getting really annoyed with some bit of dialogue, theyd cut to a sweeping shot of the city--the end drags on a little long and once joker is out of the picture i was just sort of zzzzzzzzzzz

max, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 13:18 (fifteen years ago) link

has anyone noticed how much better the sequels to most of the recent superhero movies are than the original? spider-man 2, x2, now this? and then the third movie usually sucks.

max, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 13:19 (fifteen years ago) link

i don't think either of those films were better than the originals. i didn't see the third of either.

darraghmac, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 13:21 (fifteen years ago) link

I've been thinking about that; my guess is that because each 'first' film almost necessarily needs to deal with the origin of the hero in question, that the first films exist almost from the get-go as introductions before you get to the actual story the director wants to tell. Also, the first film is a training ground for testing out new ideas. By the third film, everyone's too comfortable with what can be done, and so quality control, in the form of "can we manage this?' being answered with "yes" but not countered with "should we bother?", evaporates and "pile on the villains" one-upmanship cuts in, and you get Spidey 3 or The Last Stand.

Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 13:22 (fifteen years ago) link

Does that make sense?

Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 13:22 (fifteen years ago) link

yeah thats what i was thinking too

max, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 13:24 (fifteen years ago) link

But anyway, all Joker's talk about pro-Anarchy, anti-Planning = utter hokum as he has by far the most complex Plans of anyone in the picture. I can only excuse this as lies that he tells Dent to try to make him go bad.

i dont remember the speech that well but i thought this was less that joker doesnt have any plans and more that he makes plans without a point--he's less 'anarchic' than he is, like, 'anti-utilitarian' or something. there are no ends in joker's world.

max, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 13:27 (fifteen years ago) link

maybe these movies should all be made-for-tv miniseries instead

Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 13:30 (fifteen years ago) link

http://www.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/Movies/07/22/bale.questioned.ap/index.html?eref=rss_latest

This is mental if it's true.

Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 13:30 (fifteen years ago) link

and you could replicate max's imax experience by sitting really really close to the tv

xpost

Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 13:31 (fifteen years ago) link

haha yes, the cover of today's evening standard says "police question batman"

Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 13:32 (fifteen years ago) link

I know he thinks he's a bit method, but this is stupid.

Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 13:34 (fifteen years ago) link

would love to see an HBO gotham mcu series, so long as there are super-villains

max, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 13:34 (fifteen years ago) link

my guess is that because each 'first' film almost necessarily needs to deal with the origin of the hero in question, that the first films exist almost from the get-go as introductions before you get to the actual story the director wants to tell.

it makes sense, but i think i enjoy the origin part of superhero movies more than the soap opera love stories etc that sequels bring into it.

xpost maybe his mum and sister were planning a heist.

darraghmac, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 13:36 (fifteen years ago) link

"I'm sorry, son, but Heath's performance is just better than yours."

Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 13:36 (fifteen years ago) link

maybe her tea's just not up to alfred's standard.

darraghmac, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 13:41 (fifteen years ago) link

Entirely possible.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 13:47 (fifteen years ago) link

still, vigilante tea-inspired punishment beatings? bit much.

darraghmac, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 13:50 (fifteen years ago) link

But he's still a wealthy and powerful guy using his own resources to impose his vision of social order by circumventing the legal and political systems.

Just like everybody else, ever. The purpose of every major character in these stories is to examine which rules stick and when and why to break the rest. Suggesting that a billionaire with nearly limitless resources should be a stickler about adhering to the legal system if he really cares about justice is some blinkered wishful thinking Rachel Dawes shit.

Kerm, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 14:18 (fifteen years ago) link

Ken Lay would agree.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 14:19 (fifteen years ago) link

yes, ken lay was very interested in justice and crimefighting, which is why he's such a popular and fascinating superhero character.

darraghmac, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 14:21 (fifteen years ago) link

maggie g is kinda sexless

Catsupppppppppppppp dude 茄蕃, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 14:22 (fifteen years ago) link

likes:

ledger - was concerned he'd be ripping off sociopath performances of filmdom past wholesale but he truly did his own thing. oddly enough, he reminded me only of cagney at certain points. the fact that his performance was one-note (but what a note!) actually helped to keep him from completely running off with the movie. I wasn't thinking "poor dead heath ledger" while watching it, but today I was struck by the fact he *won't* be returning for the sequel, which is total sadface. ah well, at least he left on a high note. joker in nurse outfit blowing up hospital was alltime perverse + delightful.

brought the gritty - much flatter than the previous batman, which suffered from marrying its bleakitude to outlandish, contrived situations. the policier vibe gave this one stronger footing. the relentless pace actually felt relentless.

zeitgeisty - the moral dilemmas of declaring war on terror weren't just superficial frosting, they were baked in. nothing it had to say about the morality of fighting crime was particularly astute (hoary old cop/criminal duality) and perhaps we will look back and laugh but I like the way it continually returned to the topic without getting didactic about it. a little bit of ambivalence goes a long way.

dislikes:

terminator action porn OD: from the supersize-it school of filmmaking. there's more soda in this cup than you could ever possibly drink, but that's okay, it's BETTER cuz there's MORE. around the 37th kidnapping is when I put my head in my hands.

pandering: some of the playing to the crowd was creaky, e.g. editing beats for audience reactions, dorky comic relief, made in china lulz no thanks

batman, why him growl? - okay, I know bale did diff bw/bm voices in the last movie, but this was ridiculous. perhaps it was an attempt to show batman becoming animalistic due to the devolving situation (definitely thought it became more pronounced as the movie went on) but no, that didn't work.

Edward III, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 14:25 (fifteen years ago) link

You might wanna check the comments in the link before you respond. Dave Kehr:

“The Dark Knight” is “Dirty Harry” stripped of Don Siegel’s ambivalence and ambiguity. Here again, one madman (Christian Bale’s Batman/Clint Eastwood’s Harry) is posited as the only effective way of combating another (Heath Ledger’s Joker/Andy Robinson’s Scorpio). The two figures are identified as morally equivalent (”You complete me,” says Ledger to Bale, nastily referencing “Jerry Maguire”), but where Siegel’s camera literally recoils in horror at the moment Harry leaps into madness (when he steps on Scorpio’s wound in the football stadium), Nolan seems to embrace, and even romanticize, his hero’s obsessive, abusive behavior. Is the Dark Knight just George Bush with a better outfit, demanding that he be allowed all of the available “tools” to combat terrorism, even if they include torture and eavesdropping? Like Bush, Batman has his own warrantless wiretapping program, but Nolan is kind enough to assure us that, once his goal is accomplished, the superhero will blow it up. Is he suggesting that we can count on the Dark President to do the same?

http://www.davekehr.com/?p=59

Dr Morbius, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 14:27 (fifteen years ago) link

Sorry to beat a dead horse but every dramatic hero since the Enlightenment has been free of the normal rules that apply to you and me, by dint of either their profession (cop, private investigator, nobleman, spy, etc) or their criminality (mafiosi, man-on-the-run, etc). It's an interesting rut that Western dramatic writing has gotten itself into, that we can't imagine the sort of heroism we aspire to other than being embodied by someone to whom the normal rules don't apply. Batman is in the basic Scarlet Pimpernel / Zorro mold, a nobleman who disguises himself not so much as to not be caught by the law (since by being noble he is somewhat above the law anyway), but so as to retain his special position in society (and thereby continue his heroic tasks)

Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 14:34 (fifteen years ago) link

Dave Kehr again:

Both the ferry boat and the wrong-rescue scenes are typical of “The Dark Knight”’s strategy of setting up impossible, “Sophie’s Choice”-like moral dilemmas for its hero, and then resolving them through sleight-of-hand: in a bit of reverse racism, a scary-looking black man steps up to make the tough moral choice that a wimpy-looking white guy is unable to handle; Batman arrives to rescue his girl friend, only to find that the Joker has betrayed him (!) and switched locations. In both cases the hero gets to look fine and noble while he wrestles with issues that are then resolved with no moral cost to him. I agree that the movie is not triumphalist, but triumphalism is hardly in style at this point in time. Instead, it substitutes the dark romanticism of the misunderstood outsider, who takes on the sins of the community the better to redeem the poor saps who will remain forever ungrateful to him — a slight improvement over a ticker tape parade finale, but still a self-flattering, adolescent notion.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 14:36 (fifteen years ago) link

difference being, in real life you have to decide whether or not you trust a vigilante, and wonder what his reasons are.

batman is just a comic book hero, and we know he's the good guy. i don't think the parallel holds up.

darraghmac, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 14:37 (fifteen years ago) link

he used the term "reverse racism" = don't listen to a thing the guy says

goole, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 14:39 (fifteen years ago) link

Batman arrives to rescue his girl friend, only to find that the Joker has betrayed him (!)

is this what happened? maybe i got jumbled, i thought the point was that Batman chose Dent

goole, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 14:41 (fifteen years ago) link


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