It's Time to Wear the Relaxed Fit Pants
― Brad C., Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:13 (fourteen years ago) link
xp take into account that if a guy is dressed magnificently and acts like he knows it, that's not necessarily a hugely attractive trait?
― Louis Cll (darraghmac), Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:17 (fourteen years ago) link
i mean more--compare what hes saying to the ketel one ad up top
― max, Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:24 (fourteen years ago) link
I think the Ketel One ad still plays into male insecurities--you're not a man today (whether it's your fault or the world's) but last night...
― Action Orientation (Eazy), Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:26 (fourteen years ago) link
living in a pre-clooney world
― ogmor, Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:26 (fourteen years ago) link
xp sure, i mean, of course it plays to insecurities--all advertising does--its just that altschiller is saying that the aspirational fantasy of the ad shouldnt be preening & self-confident, because (in 1997) men dont want to "care" about how they look. but the aspirational fantasy of the ketel one ad is all about preening self-confidence and caring how you look.
― max, Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:29 (fourteen years ago) link
"Men are still abashed about acknowledging that clothing is important," Altschiller said. "Fashion can't be important to me as a man. Even when, in the first commercial, the waiter says 'Nice pants,' it doesn't compute to the guy wearing the nice pants. He's thinking, What do you mean, 'Nice pants'?"
my point basically being that i dont think this is true anymore
― max, Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:31 (fourteen years ago) link
I think at times the "be a MAN" schtick is kind of useful as a stand-in for "be an ADULT," -- something that's kind of useful in an era of prolonged childhood.
Yep! Also, my biggest objection to dudes "broing down" in the desert w dune buggies is that I want to go.
― WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:35 (fourteen years ago) link
its maybe "useful" but turning it into "be a MAN" instead of "be a GROWN UP" means that its always being defined against women & gays which is hardly very nice
― max, Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:37 (fourteen years ago) link
xx-post max i think it's still true in many dude circles, but def less true than before
― it's like 10,000 goons when all you need is a trife (m bison), Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:37 (fourteen years ago) link
i dont think its very true in natl television advertising!
― max, Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:38 (fourteen years ago) link
But I think Clooney and Obama are steering us toward an ideal in which "be a man" doesn't mean against women and gays, and with that comes the confidence that we, and not just the Dekes, are men.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3599/3420371862_f8de0799e1_o.jpg
― Action Orientation (Eazy), Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:41 (fourteen years ago) link
that would be great if i wasnt looking at an ad at the top of the screen that strikes me as defining masculinity very specifically against women and gays.
as does for that matter the ketel one ad
― max, Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:43 (fourteen years ago) link
"use Playboy frequently"
― HUH? not appropriate (snoball), Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:43 (fourteen years ago) link
xxx-post oh! well, yes. sry 2 misread u on that.
i'm with you on the "be a man" idea being a poor proxy for achieving adulthood, smacks of implying women are juvenile and/or incapabale of taking care of things, p regressive
― it's like 10,000 goons when all you need is a trife (m bison), Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:44 (fourteen years ago) link
OK the ad is obv BS, but about the grown-up vs "man" idea: you have to work this out for yrself. You are a man, some of us are women -- this is more than incidental to our identities, but what EXACTLY it means for us is personal. Once I was a woman who was not grown up, and now I is one who is.
― WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:45 (fourteen years ago) link
nah you didnt misread, i was unclear--obviously there are large swaths of the population in a 1997 dont-care-about-my-appearance mindset
xp
― max, Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:45 (fourteen years ago) link
What does it mean that we are supposed to "man up" but "bro down"??
― Nuyorican oatmeal (jaymc), Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:45 (fourteen years ago) link
man is v seriousss (suits, business), bro is fun (flip flops, dune buggies)
― it's like 10,000 goons when all you need is a trife (m bison), Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:46 (fourteen years ago) link
but laurel if you say "be a MAN" and you mean "be a MAN and not a WOMAN" youre necessarily implying that women are bad, or that being like a woman is bad.
― max, Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:46 (fourteen years ago) link
Well maybe that's a common underlying intention in that phrase, but to me personally it's more like, "Be a man because you are one -- accept it and redefine it for yourself but live up to SOMETHING" and I will be a woman because I am one and ditto the above.
― WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:48 (fourteen years ago) link
ok yeah but thats a way more complex and abstracted reading of the phrase than is ever encouraged by the ads
― max, Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:49 (fourteen years ago) link
If I say, "be a MAN", I am implying that some other people with penises are not worthy to qualify as "men" by my standards, and I don't want you to be one of them.
― WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:50 (fourteen years ago) link
Is that better/simpler? But anyway yeah I'm not arguing w you about advertising cos u right, and also I didn't grow up with the question of sufficient manliness hovering around me all the time and being oppressive.
― WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:51 (fourteen years ago) link
what would you sell with this concept of MAN?
― ogmor, Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:52 (fourteen years ago) link
no i mean i see what youre saying laurel i just am still skeptical of the phrase partly cause i dont know how i feel about gender essentialism and susan faludi and fight club and all that shit
― max, Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:52 (fourteen years ago) link
MEN WERE STRIPPED OF THEIR KHAKIS
^^doing the world a huge favor, btw
― WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:52 (fourteen years ago) link
Khakis are nice to lounge around in, stfu.
― kingkongvsgodzilla, Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:53 (fourteen years ago) link
: )
don't agree with this at all- the more natural thing to draw from it is to be a man as opposed to being a boy, not a woman.
― Louis Cll (darraghmac), Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:54 (fourteen years ago) link
I like the Gap's 90s campaign to re-associate khakis with writers, Miles, etc. Men vs. drones.
http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/Images/jksm.gif
― Action Orientation (Eazy), Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:55 (fourteen years ago) link
xp in certain contexts that might be true but its hard to pretend that the idea of man-as-opposed-to-woman doesnt inhere given that you know "man" is a gendered word
― max, Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:56 (fourteen years ago) link
yeah actually eazy i think the gaps 90s campaign is the real harbinger for the ketel one type ad--and maybe even the dockers ad--with this whole 'lost era of american masculinity' type nostalgia
x post to mac in the context of many male-aimed ads (esp the top ad in question), the foil is not boyhood but primarily the "opposite" gender and its ill effects on manhood
― it's like 10,000 goons when all you need is a trife (m bison), Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:58 (fourteen years ago) link
matter fact, in sort of bro-type ads (dave and busters comes to mind immediately), boyhood and the casting off of adult responsibilities is celebrated!
― it's like 10,000 goons when all you need is a trife (m bison), Wednesday, 9 December 2009 14:59 (fourteen years ago) link
I agree, max, and I think yr right that being aware of which side is being run down by comparisons to the other is crucial to be on the lookout for, but I think there are more charitable views of what "be a man" entails sometimes.
xp Things that celebrate being bros are NOT what the manly ad is about. Most definitely.
What is Dave & Buster's?
― WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Wednesday, 9 December 2009 15:00 (fourteen years ago) link
men vs drones is the only one of these I could even sort of get behind. I want to see the man as adult camp come up with some nostalgic call to arms on the lines of the ad up top. "hoodie by hoodie, xbox by xbox"...?
― ogmor, Wednesday, 9 December 2009 15:00 (fourteen years ago) link
xpost to laurel, it is like a video games and wings and beer kind of place, like chuck e cheese for adults...i don't know a comparable analogue elsewhere in the country, but they exist in texas and advertise on a sort of "be a kid again yay!" tip to the 20-30 y/o dude set
― it's like 10,000 goons when all you need is a trife (m bison), Wednesday, 9 December 2009 15:02 (fourteen years ago) link
Dave and Busters, Laurel. No kidding.
http://www.travelks.com/images/Listing/5840-Co-Ed_Games_media.jpg
― kingkongvsgodzilla, Wednesday, 9 December 2009 15:04 (fourteen years ago) link
Look at the things men are expected to do in the Kettel 1 ad: they are all things that are WORK for them, and that benefit others. Now, whether some of them are the best solution to the world's problems is debateable (why hello dere, Promise Keeprs), but those commands are not about having fun or being irresponsible. It's more like they're telling you, Your life is best when it's devoted to others. Go and see where your strength and skills can be put to use.
This, at it's best and not in a shitty ad way, is kind of amazing for everyone, plus I wouldn't be too bothered by the gender component of that. Mostly because anyone for whom a life of service was a desirable thing, is probably not too bothered about exactly who does what in reality.
― WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Wednesday, 9 December 2009 15:04 (fourteen years ago) link
With Dave & Busters and Ketel One, I think part of the idea is that "we validate your thoughts and feelings--wanting to be a kid, wanting to be a cad--that aren't being validated around you, whether by your boss, your wife, your kids, etc.--and by validating those feelings in a safe way (i.e., don't leave your family, don't screw around) we will complete you as a man. Come off to the Ketel One woods with us, and you will return complete and confident--not changed, but with your internal self more merged with your social self. We'll make you a complete man."
― Action Orientation (Eazy), Wednesday, 9 December 2009 15:06 (fourteen years ago) link
OK wait I think I misunderstood something: what is the original ad with all the words on it for?
― WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Wednesday, 9 December 2009 15:07 (fourteen years ago) link
man pants iirc
― it's like 10,000 goons when all you need is a trife (m bison), Wednesday, 9 December 2009 15:07 (fourteen years ago) link
Is that a Levi's ad? Some of it looks like their web design.
― WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Wednesday, 9 December 2009 15:08 (fourteen years ago) link
xps to max & bison yeah i'll accept that's more than fair in view of the ads in question.
― Louis Cll (darraghmac), Wednesday, 9 December 2009 15:08 (fourteen years ago) link
kerouac wore khakis; ginsberg wore corduroys
― elmo leonard (elmo argonaut), Wednesday, 9 December 2009 15:10 (fourteen years ago) link
http://fashiontribes.typepad.com/main/images/allen_ginsberg.jpgGinsberg wore OshKosh B'Gosh.
― Action Orientation (Eazy), Wednesday, 9 December 2009 15:13 (fourteen years ago) link
I don't think the dockers ad is so much an advert for selfless heroism so much as identifying selfless heroism as a trait on a par with "not being a fag" in the modern definition of being a MAN.
― ogmor, Wednesday, 9 December 2009 15:16 (fourteen years ago) link
lol xp
― what u think i steen for to push a crawfish? (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Wednesday, 9 December 2009 15:18 (fourteen years ago) link
That Dockers ad is hilariously stupid. I associate wearing Dockers with being in high school so the whole "BE A MAN" thing is pretty much entirely undercut by the fact that I was a child intentionally buying conservative pants that I could wear wit combat boots and Cure t-shirts.
― wtf?!? just randomly started crying! (HI DERE), Wednesday, 9 December 2009 15:18 (fourteen years ago) link