Spike Lee: Dud or DUD?!?

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really? i don't recall it petering out. i'll have to see it again.

amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 20:54 (twenty years ago) link

I especially found it hard to keep track of what was going on with certain characters--there were a few musical-montages that seemed not designed as such in the initial shooting, you know what I mean?

s1utsky (slutsky), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 20:57 (twenty years ago) link

i wonder how meticulously spike lee plans out his films in advance of shooting. there's always the suspicion that the cuisinart-cutting compensates for a messy production, but 25th hour felt very deliberate and measured.

amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 21:00 (twenty years ago) link

As do his best movies, I think.

s1utsky (slutsky), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 21:01 (twenty years ago) link

three months pass...
just saw Do The Right Thing and it raised two questions: This thing was viewed like mark sez "important and unsettling" but was it TRUE? The jazz score seems to underline spike's streamlining of ppl. but more than that, his construction of a fake-narrative, wishing of a coherent historical trend, the contradiction between selling itself as "the voice of NOW" and a score which sez "I am all about things which are very very OLD" and with the characters too, the fire-hydrant scene especially they all felt drawn from some prior canon and thrown into imagined scenes. I.e. it did not feel at ALL like new york, or race as I know it, but instead a mish-mosh of prior images sorta like what I've read of the first productions for harlem theater under the WPA -- plays for black casts with black characters but really simply adopted and relocated clumsily from plays set in Ireland in the 1800 or England in the 1500s or etc. (I actually saw and adoptation of Brecht's Mother Courage in much the same tradition).

Second question: why was that the message for the moment? what made ppl. ready to hear a sanitized, stark (for a city stereotypically "teeming with life" the thing that strikes most about DTRT is how EMPTY the sets feel, how clumsily and few the extras set to walk through scenes, even how TINY the "mob") highlighted vision of "racism will burn us ALL down"? Somehow even the way the film is posed says more about Spike and his situationing of himself, his view of the mechanisms for political change, than about "America" in any sense. He ends with the Malcom and King quotes but its clear he's in the tradtion of a minister of information.

Also, PE as a representation of rap fails on so many levels, the list the DJ gives of heroes and greats captures the absurdity of drawing this line of tradition up through PE perfectly (if unintentially). Also spike fails most fully when he tries to comprehend/convey generative forces for racial animosity from anybody not black. I mean... "my friends make fun of me"? (i suspect this is what mark was getting at with the jungle fever stuff) This also tends to gloss-over/forgive the more subtle and consistent sorts of racial prejudice. (perhaps which partially answers my second question).

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 23 October 2003 05:31 (twenty years ago) link

anyone? anyone?

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 23 October 2003 16:58 (twenty years ago) link

Unfortunately I have no response to what Sterling just said. I'm just popping in here to say that Mos Def's performance in Bamboozled was one of the most intense and conflicting I can remember in almost any movie I've ever seen.

nickalicious (nickalicious), Thursday, 23 October 2003 17:08 (twenty years ago) link

spike's movies are never perfect but they are interesting. I generally like what I've seen quite a bit but I haven't seen nearly all of them.

teeny (teeny), Thursday, 23 October 2003 17:14 (twenty years ago) link

it's been way too long (like five years or more) since i saw the film to respond adequately to sterling's post, though i wish i could. i do remember the relative (to reality) emptiness of the brooklyn streets even when i was 12-13 and saw it for the first time.... even then it registered not as a lapse but as a kind of stylization. along with the bright primary colors of the homes. the film does register as a kind of musical at many moments, so the "west side story" quality of the set decoration is not completely out of place.

amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 23 October 2003 18:51 (twenty years ago) link

i liked the dad's solilioquoy in that dumb "punch me in the head, i'm going to jail" movie with ed norton

the girlfriend was also hot

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Thursday, 23 October 2003 18:56 (twenty years ago) link

i want that to be fritz's contribution to the faber & faber "spike lee reader."

amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 23 October 2003 18:59 (twenty years ago) link

I don't have much else to add.

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Thursday, 23 October 2003 19:00 (twenty years ago) link

what was that movie called again anyway? "24 HOURS" or something? I still don't understand why being beaten up will keep him from getting raped in jail.

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Thursday, 23 October 2003 19:02 (twenty years ago) link

I generally like what I've seen quite a bit but I haven't seen nearly all of them.

Ditto. Been years since I've seen DTRT, Crooklyn or Jungle Fever. The words "awesome" and "intense" immediately come to mind. It's sure that Spike's movies will end up in an international movie space capsule to show the future that we DID have passionate filmmakers now and then.

Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Thursday, 23 October 2003 19:05 (twenty years ago) link

amateurist otm re: stylization & west side story (see also 8 mile)

but sterling, what do you mean by "is it TRUE"? "is it an accurate (visual & otherwise) portrayal of life in bed-stuy in 89?" or something else?

s1utsky (slutsky), Thursday, 23 October 2003 19:11 (twenty years ago) link

jazz isn't old. it's way hipper than a traditional orchestral score anyway.

besides, spike has always been about juxtaposing different aspects of black culture, the youth/populist culture versus the history/art aspect (i.e. Get on the Bus, all the discussions in Mo' Better Blues, etc.).

Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 23 October 2003 20:06 (twenty years ago) link

il juxtapose trop.

amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 23 October 2003 20:14 (twenty years ago) link

Since I have hardly seen any movies for a long time, I can't comment on most of his films. I thought "She's Gotta Have It" and "Do the Right Thing" were good (even if some parts of the latter were a little heavy-handed, to use that phrase again). I think Spike Lee has a more distinctive style than most commercial film producers (or the ones I was aware of when I saw films a little more often). I remember comparing him to Woody Allen, myself, but in regard to his style being recognizable. It's a little hard for me to separate "Do the Right Thing" from being a young graduate student (just library science--bleah), and seeing it in a theater at around 19th & Chestnut Street*, and being really into Public Enemy at the time.

*This is for Mohammed Abba.

Al Andalous, Friday, 24 October 2003 01:32 (twenty years ago) link

Reading Sterling's comments makes me realize how little I actually remember of "Do the Right Thing." I saw it when it came out and haven't see it since.

Al Andalous, Friday, 24 October 2003 01:43 (twenty years ago) link

i was saddened to see that theater closed the last time i was in town.

i watched do the right thing about six months ago because nancy had never seen it and i must say it holds up remarkably better than i expected it to from the last time i saw it as a freshman film student.

mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Friday, 24 October 2003 01:53 (twenty years ago) link

q: did the l.a. riots seal spike's career?

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 24 October 2003 03:32 (twenty years ago) link

He is like woody allen. A clever and idosyncratic figure who makes yearly spins on the same film. Not that that was an insult.
-- anthony (anthonyeasto...), August 18th, 2001.

Wow. Too right.

Skottie, Friday, 24 October 2003 13:28 (twenty years ago) link

three months pass...
I just watched 25th Hour again - if not for the draggy club scene, how close to perfect would this have been?

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 22 February 2004 10:51 (twenty years ago) link

I think the club scene is good. I love that film. I didn't expect Spike Lee to make anything so good ever again.

anthony kyle monday (akmonday), Sunday, 22 February 2004 19:41 (twenty years ago) link

i agree with milo, i think the club scene could've been great but was wasted.

s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 23 February 2004 00:42 (twenty years ago) link

The club scene either needed to be longer/more of a focus, or cut back more. (It felt that way in the novel, too). It felt too much like "oh god, we need the exposition, but we're not really going anywhere with this."

The bathroom monologue was even more powerful this time, but the last five-ten minutes wasn't. It was still great, and I was about to cry - but it didn't match the awe I felt the first time I saw it.

(25th Hour really made me wish I could move to NYC again. And a Cool Hand Luke poster.)

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Monday, 23 February 2004 04:51 (twenty years ago) link

one year passes...
Da Mayor - Zeus
Mother Sister - Hera
Mookie - Hermes
Jade - Athena
Buggin Out - Ares
Radio Raheem - Apollo
Sal - Hephaestus? or Odysseus?
Vito - Perseus?
Pino - Telemachus?
Mister Senor Love Daddy - Dionysus
Tina - nymph (her son is Pan)
ML, Coconut Sid and Sweet Dick Willie - chorus (though ML might be Poseidon and the others don't know it)
Smiley - Echo
Ahmad - Prometheus
Cee - Epimethus
Punchy - Narcissus
Ella - Pandora

gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 23 June 2005 14:51 (eighteen years ago) link

one month passes...
Dom Passantino, talk to me about Do the Right Thing.

jaymc (jaymc), Saturday, 6 August 2005 23:14 (eighteen years ago) link

eleven months pass...
for the record, i love spike. and like others have said, kinda, even when he's bad he's infinitely interesting. (that would be the woody parallel i guess) but bamboozled really did have me bamboozled. it's so poorly made/shot/written/acted EXCEPT for the actual minstrel show itself, that it actually made me feel like the whole movie was an EXCUSE to film the minstrel show part. and THAT made me wish that he had made some sort of historical set piece about minstrelsy and imagine how awesome it would have been. the most effective moment emotionally for me was simply the long look at what ebay sellers like to call "black americana" eg: dolls, advertisements, etc. and even that stuff (hugely popular collectables big with wealthy black collectors) would have made an extremely interesting documentary of some sort. so i saw the potential for interesting subjects to be pursued, but unfortunately they were tied to such a dog of a movie. like woody, i guess i just wonder what is going through his head sometimes.

scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 21 July 2006 02:56 (seventeen years ago) link

I liked Summer of Sam better than any other S. Lee except Do the Right Thing. Jungle Fever's pretty good, too.

Eric H. (Eric H.), Friday, 21 July 2006 03:21 (seventeen years ago) link

lol i was totally able to predict the opinions of several people before reading the thread.
"fantastic powerful beautiful near- perfect director"
er, he is a director, i'll give you that

timmy tannin (pompous), Friday, 21 July 2006 03:36 (seventeen years ago) link

Scott OTM. I wrote as much a few years ago in a review, such ingloriously ,ugly, meaty, lively material with no connective tissue; the (literal)minstrel scenes are such an island it does end up feeling like a indulgence, and then a cop-out, and the attempts to contemporize or reconcile the blackface stuff with the rest of the bullshit going on were bound to fail. It's not even heavy-handed, it's just...overactive and distracted and frustrating and boring and bad mostly. otm about the sambo stuff thrown at the screen too, I'm almost glad he didn't sink his teeth into that, certainly deserves far more consideration than he was capable of giving it at the time. I can't help but love Spike just for trying stuff like this is the thing, dude is classic obv. Summer of Sam is real good xpost

tremendoid (tremendoid), Friday, 21 July 2006 03:45 (seventeen years ago) link

summer of sam, 25th hour, clockers, do the right thing, jungle fever, & 4 little girls are all great. i remember liking bits of he got game, too, but i don't remember enough to say i liked it overall.

gear (gear), Friday, 21 July 2006 03:49 (seventeen years ago) link

hah, that's exactly my list. though i like crooklyn enuff, too.

Damn, Atreyu! (x Jeremy), Friday, 21 July 2006 03:54 (seventeen years ago) link

i love Crooklyn

tremendoid (tremendoid), Friday, 21 July 2006 04:09 (seventeen years ago) link

the movie i wish i could have seen: paul mooney (such a powerful presence on screen) as burt williams, legendary minstrel/vaudville/etc entertainer. that would have been epic and worth all the tea in china.

scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 21 July 2006 04:11 (seventeen years ago) link

mira sorvino was a movie star once, right?

kingfish cyclopean ice cream (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 21 July 2006 04:20 (seventeen years ago) link

crooklyn vs. everybody hates chris ...

Damn, Atreyu! (x Jeremy), Friday, 21 July 2006 04:27 (seventeen years ago) link

I hated He Got Game. But I'm glad so many other people liked 25th Hour. I remember it getting really bad reviews, but I totally loved it.

the most effective moment emotionally for me was simply the long look at what ebay sellers like to call "black americana" eg: dolls, advertisements, etc. and even that stuff (hugely popular collectables big with wealthy black collectors) would have made an extremely interesting documentary of some sort

some of that stuff made it into that Confederate States of America movie, and was pretty much the only good part of it. Lee had some kind of production role in C.S.A., and I assume he had some hand in including the real history of "black Americana" in the mockumentary. He should totally make an actual documentary about it.

horseshoe (horseshoe), Friday, 21 July 2006 04:29 (seventeen years ago) link

You didn't like CSA at all? I thought it was stretched way too thin(eventually the fantasy scenario outpaced the actual satire) but I remember some of the 'commercials' being sort of funny.

tremendoid (tremendoid), Friday, 21 July 2006 04:42 (seventeen years ago) link

yeah, the commercials were great, and then at the end it was revealed that they were real, at which point I decided, based on Bamboozled, that Lee was responsible for them being in the movie.

I don't know, CSA's satire was kind of inconsistent--like it wouldn't put its money where its mouth was in terms of racial ideology.

horseshoe (horseshoe), Friday, 21 July 2006 04:47 (seventeen years ago) link

i now think school daze was def. his best. it has just enuf silliness and generosity to overpower the still-present grouchy preacher spike.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 21 July 2006 06:23 (seventeen years ago) link

I was heartened when The Inside Man turned out to be such a fantastic piece of m mainstream filmmaking – and a hit!

Duds: Mo' Better Blues, Bamboozled

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Friday, 21 July 2006 11:59 (seventeen years ago) link

I'VE GOT JUNGLE FEVER
SHE'S GOT JUNGE FEVER
WE'VE GOT JUNGLE FEVER
WE'RE IN LOVE

fongoloid sangfroid (sanskrit), Friday, 21 July 2006 12:05 (seventeen years ago) link

i fucking loved jungle fever when i first saw it. havent seen it in years. how is it?

pisces (piscesx), Friday, 21 July 2006 12:16 (seventeen years ago) link

Paul Mooney's standup is maybe the best stand-up I've ever seen.

Tracey Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 21 July 2006 12:23 (seventeen years ago) link

I love Mo' Better Blues. :(

Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 21 July 2006 12:35 (seventeen years ago) link

it has a fair amount of flaws, but me too

gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 21 July 2006 12:36 (seventeen years ago) link

yes, the turturro bros were "problematic" in that movie, to say the least.

timmy tannin (pompous), Friday, 21 July 2006 12:43 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't get people hating "Bamboozled" (although to be fair this is mostly because I knew people from undergrad almost exactly like Damon Wayans' character so it didn't seem overacted to me).

Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Friday, 21 July 2006 13:00 (seventeen years ago) link


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