Stanley Kubrick: Classic or Dud?

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

Not all messages are displayed: show all messages (877 of them)

Eyes Wide Shut has got to be the one of the most resilient films i've ever seen, in terms my enjoyment not being at all diminished by an ever-increasing list complaints i completely agree with

i watched Clockwork on a tiny tv with a weird magnifying screen put in front of it to make it look all grainy and big, it was spooky and unpleasant but i was pretty stoned at the time

― jones (actual), Thursday, 10 March 2005 17:06 (twenty-one years ago)

"A Clockwork Orange" is a pretty bad film, despite Malcolm McDowell's brilliance. To me it marked the point at which Kubrick emphasized content for its own sake over the moral questions which marked earlier films like "Paths of Glory." Just compare the book with the film and it's obvious that we're supposed to empathize with "poor" Alec – even as he rapes that woman. It doesn't help that McDowell's performance is the best in the film and thus we think that everyone else deserves to die.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 10 March 2005 17:13 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah that's funny because "everyone but Alex deserves to die" is EXACTLY what i think when watching that movie!

― ryan (ryan), Thursday, 10 March 2005 17:24 (twenty-one years ago)

I watched Barry Lyndon with my mom over xmas, I was surprised how much she enjoyed it. Don't even tell your friend it's by Kubrick.

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Thursday, 10 March 2005 18:04 (twenty-one years ago)

I watched Lyndon with my "mean" uncle and we chuckled through the whole thing. I think what Soto says above there is why Clockwork Orange is a good film. Technology > Morals and film proves it time and time again.

― The Argunaut (sexyDancer), Thursday, 10 March 2005 18:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Argunaut, that's how I felt when I was younger, more callow, and had seen (and thought about) more films. Read Pauline Kael's review of "Clockwork" – still the most nuanced out there. There's a difference between a brilliant film which presents attractive killers and then undercuts our expectations (like "Bonnie & Clyde") and one which endorses the characters' points of views. Great film, like great literature, doesn't endorse: it presents and then judges, or in the case of a rare artist like a Jean Renoir, shows why everyone has his reasons. But then again, there were no villains like Alec in Renoir's movies, and no two-dimensional emotional landscapes like Kubrick's "Clockwork."

And I have no idea what you mean by "technology".

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 10 March 2005 19:12 (twenty-one years ago)

i dont understand. it would seem to me that Bonnie and Clyde almost wholeheartedly endorses them--they are given a martyr's death even! ACO seems a little more ambiguous in this regard--it's pretty much taken as a given that Alex is a murderous hooligan and stands for nothing other than his own perverse and violent pleasure.

― ryan (ryan), Thursday, 10 March 2005 19:25 (twenty-one years ago)

by technology, I mean film itself and also the technology in Clockwork, the violence "cure."
I will say that great art only observes.
Kubrick--it's hard to bring dimensionality, or realism, into a critique of him because he's essientially a hermeticist. His films are experiential allegories. His concerns are systems, not individuals.
Alex is much more than a hooligan: he's an artist.

― The Argunaut (sexyDancer), Thursday, 10 March 2005 19:53 (twenty-one years ago)

he's an art lover, i'm not sure he's an artist

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 10 March 2005 19:58 (twenty-one years ago)

How much of Kubrick's life -- exile in UK, obsessive -- is responsible for labeling of his art as "hermeticist"?

BTW, I don't recall Kael being at all equivocal on The Shining; she panned it as "the first pompous haunted-house movie," and for once I agree.

I think Alex is glamorized in ACO, but not endorsed. It's still a minor film of his, and really hits the skids once he returns HOME.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 10 March 2005 20:00 (twenty-one years ago)

His concerns are systems, not individuals

I think that he is more concerned than most with systems, but that this does not render him unconcerned with individuals. I think he is particularly concerned with the interplay between the individual and the system. It is probably accurate to say that he is far less concerned than most with 'character.' But perhaps he thinks that 'character' is a nice story for people who don't want to think too much about their relationship to a system, and that he doesn't want his movies to be so encumbered.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 10 March 2005 20:06 (twenty-one years ago)

you're right, "character" is what I meant. Not that "characters" don't inhabit his films, they usually don't go through the standard h-wood "character arc" bullshit.

― The Argunaut (sexyDancer), Thursday, 10 March 2005 20:14 (twenty-one years ago)

re: "hermeticist" is don't mean "someone who is reclusive" but more of "someone who locks volitile elements inside airtight containers and observes the transformations". Mystical, yeah.

― The Argunaut (sexyDancer), Thursday, 10 March 2005 20:16 (twenty-one years ago)

is = I, oops

― The Argunaut (sexyDancer), Thursday, 10 March 2005 20:20 (twenty-one years ago)

His Theme is often called dehumanization, ie basic training in Full Metal Jacket is the Ludovico Treatment reversed.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 10 March 2005 20:38 (twenty-one years ago)

ten months pass...

this site has some great stuff

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 01:43 (twenty years ago)

Just compare the book with the film and it's obvious that we're supposed to empathize with "poor" Alec – even as he rapes that woman.

Is the contrast here supposed to be that we're not supposed to empathize with Alec in the book? Because I don't think Burgess would agree with that.

― phil d. (Phil D.), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 02:05 (twenty years ago)

Indeed he won't.

― Masked Gazza, Tuesday, 17 January 2006 02:11 (twenty years ago)

EWS is a heartless whore of a movie and its viewer a hapless john who pays his money, heaps praise, looks past the wear and tear and for all his trouble, is greeted with contempt at at two hours' end left with a sour taste or worse and little else.

― Ian in Brooklyn, Tuesday, 17 January 2006 04:07 (twenty years ago)

"But perhaps he thinks that 'character' is a nice story for people who don't want to think too much about their relationship to a system, and that he doesn't want his movies to be so encumbered."

otm, 'character' is so overrated in movies, the same as how lyrics are overrated in songs.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 04:14 (twenty years ago)

>>EWS is a heartless whore of a movie and its viewer a hapless john who pays his money, heaps praise, looks past the wear and tear and for all his trouble, is greeted with contempt at at two hours' end left with a sour taste or worse and little else.

― Brad Laner (Brad Laner), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 04:18 (twenty years ago)

and this is a bad thing ?

― Brad Laner (Brad Laner), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 04:18 (twenty years ago)

i like it

― kyle (akmonday), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 06:41 (twenty years ago)

EWS is about NOT cheating.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 14:18 (twenty years ago)

In EWS, there are masters and there are servants.

― senseiDancer (sexyDancer), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 22:32 (twenty years ago)

it's actually about the Peruvian healthcare system.

― latebloomer: virtuous, pure and masculine like only an American male can be (lat, Tuesday, 17 January 2006 22:36 (twenty years ago)

it's more about how doctors are not members of the ruling class, but hey

― senseiDancer (sexyDancer), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 22:38 (twenty years ago)

yes, it's more about that, but it is about both

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 22:57 (twenty years ago)

Anyone see Carpenter's Dark Star... pretty good.

― A BOLD QUAHOG (ex machina), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 01:15 (twenty years ago)

sociological reading of ews:

http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/amk/doc/0096.html

― Ward Fowler (Ward Fowler), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 11:25 (twenty years ago)

The chanting is a backwards sample of priests giving a Latin mass. Pook felt that by reversing the order of their speech, she would lend the preists a "diabolical" (her word) flavor. Kubrick emphasized this by having the red-robed guy walk around in a counter-clockwise path.

WHOOAAAAA

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 January 2006 13:43 (twenty years ago)

Films having possible subtexts, that's just crazy talk!

― latebloomer: virtuous, pure and masculine like only an American male can be (lat, Wednesday, 18 January 2006 13:47 (twenty years ago)

(btw that was a comment on the decadence of wife-swapping film critics)

― latebloomer: virtuous, pure and masculine like only an American male can be (lat, Wednesday, 18 January 2006 13:57 (twenty years ago)

holy shit david raposa. so classic its not even funny. full metal jacket, clockwork orange, 2001: space odyssey, dr. stranglove, spartacus.

― cheshire05, Wednesday, 18 January 2006 16:54 (twenty years ago)

four months pass...

Major NYC retro in Astoria; if you've never seen 2001 (70mm) or Lyndon in a theater (or feel the completist's need to see the boxing doc short or Killer's Kiss) you should go:

http://movingimage.us/site/screenings/mainpage/stanley_kubrick.html

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 2 June 2006 13:49 (twenty years ago)

i was planning on my faves FMJ (w/ Modine!) and EWS

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 2 June 2006 13:52 (twenty years ago)

What is it going to take to get a European print of EWS screened here, without the digital orgy cockblockers?

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 2 June 2006 14:41 (twenty years ago)

four months pass...

Good Day, Mr. Kubrick...

i swear to god, part of me just died.

― jed_ (jed), Friday, 27 October 2006 14:17 (nineteen years ago)

Finally saw Barry Lyndon last week. I haven't read the Trollope novel, so I can't judge Kubrick's fidelity to its tone and voice. Very amusing minor film: the ideal Merchant Ivory film. Ryan O'Neal's most charming performance.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Friday, 27 October 2006 14:23 (nineteen years ago)

thackeray

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 27 October 2006 14:28 (nineteen years ago)

hardly minor

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 27 October 2006 14:29 (nineteen years ago)

Minor, no. "Charming"??? Kubrick's best casting prank before Tom Cruise; a lummox as a lummox.

I read the first 50 Thackeray pages once; it's more overtly jokey, somewhat a la Fielding (tho the early part of the film's pretty funny too).

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 27 October 2006 14:30 (nineteen years ago)

taken on its technological advancements alone "Barry Lyndon" is far from minor. i think it's easily his best film.

― jed_ (jed), Friday, 27 October 2006 14:41 (nineteen years ago)

well no, not "easily".

― jed_ (jed), Friday, 27 October 2006 14:59 (nineteen years ago)

seconded, Barry Lyndon is one of the top 10 films of the 70s (a decade with an embarassment of riches)

― timmy tannin (pompous), Friday, 27 October 2006 15:30 (nineteen years ago)

The film has no momentum. Is the novel's last third as bad as the film's?

Kubrick's best casting prank before Tom Cruise; a lummox as a lummox.

Nah. Again, haven't read the Thackeray novel, but O'Neal didn't mangle the brogue, was adept with a sword, and was believable as a passive lover.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Friday, 27 October 2006 15:41 (nineteen years ago)

I had this frustratingly semi-valid argument with someone last night about Kubrick vs. Cassavetes, (I said C, he said D; still a very unfair comparison). I feel that with the approach the man took to filmmaking, coupled with the fact that he created a masterpiece in most every genre he dabbled in (Strangelove = one of the best comedies, FMJ = 1otb war films, 2001 = 1otb sci-fi, Shining = 1otb horror, etc, etc), it's simply understood that Kubrick is the greatest director. This kid was saying the primary reason Kubrick made such masterpieces was because he had unlimited resources and very few bondaries, and how if Cassavetes had access to what Kubrick had, he would be far superior. He also compared him to Spielberg :-( Actually, now that I'm sober, that whole unlimited resources angle sounds like complete bullshit.

Kubrick is as C as C can fucking get.

― less-than three's Christiane F. (drowned in milk), Friday, 27 October 2006 15:45 (nineteen years ago)

Cassavetes on a big budget would've done the same, only 400 takes instead of 100.

The last third of Barry Lyndon is far more passionate and intelligent about violence and revenge than all of Clockwork Orange.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 27 October 2006 16:28 (nineteen years ago)

The film has no momentum.

Kubrick isn't exactly reknowned for his breakneck pacing. I get what Morbius is saying about the stunt casting, too. Casting Ryan O'Neal (whose rep at the time was as a shallow pretty boy actor - though he probably picked up some bounce in cred for Paper Moon) and Marisa Berenson (a model) is akin to Anthony Minghella announcing that the stars of his next epic are Skeet Ulrich and Kate Moss.

I was quite taken aback by how much I enjoyed Barry Lyndon the first time I saw it. I wouldn't call it Kubrick's best, but it's near the top. I think The Shining is, in some way, Kubrick's reaction to Barry Lyndon's lukewarm reception upon release - as if he wanted to punish the audience for turning its back.

― Edward III (edward iii), Friday, 27 October 2006 19:54 (nineteen years ago)

Eyes Wide Shut > Barry Lyndon. It's not a minor film, but is it really a major one?

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 27 October 2006 20:04 (nineteen years ago)

Skipping 777 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.