Andrea Dworkin RIP

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one of the main things i wz thinkin of is exactly the opposite of the fascism deal though, which is rock culture takes it as read that members of the audience WILL cross the footlights and become the artist; plus also the audience now and then becomes the "show"

ie it is anti-hierarchical, and expressive rather than submissive

mark s (mark s), Monday, 11 April 2005 21:27 (nineteen years ago) link

Not for the majority of the people in the audience.

M. White (Miguelito), Monday, 11 April 2005 21:30 (nineteen years ago) link

individualism is such a sad religion

mark s (mark s), Monday, 11 April 2005 21:37 (nineteen years ago) link

So is communitarianism.

M. White (Miguelito), Monday, 11 April 2005 21:38 (nineteen years ago) link

That is to say that ideology taken too far and too seriously is a grim thing.

M. White (Miguelito), Monday, 11 April 2005 21:38 (nineteen years ago) link

commununitarianism is worse i think!! not sad, but def scary

(ps i didn't mean sad in the "loser" sense, which i hate: i mean genuinely struck-to-its-depth w.something sorrowful - that everything shared is tainted amd corrupting)

rock culture's dream of itself wz that this wz a vast joyful unity taken on as an active choice: rockbands as little marriages, band-and-audience as a two-way lovematch etc etc

mark s (mark s), Monday, 11 April 2005 21:42 (nineteen years ago) link

I find myself getting more and more 'conservative' about humanity's ability to radically transform itself. Little ameliorative changes may be accomplished, but the second some unforeseen conjuncture like a plague, an economic collapse, or even the sinking of a ship or a fire in theater come along and, despite some indiviual nobility, there's a good chance most people will revert to their animal selves.

M. White (Miguelito), Monday, 11 April 2005 21:49 (nineteen years ago) link

A talent for metaphor can be a dangerous thing. Dworkin's metaphorical linkage of intercourse with invasion prepared us for stuff like Carol J. Adams' The Sexual Politics of Meat and The Pornography of Meat, which make the metaphorical daisy chain:

Meat eating = objectification = pornography and women = cattle

It's as if she's saying "It's much worse than you think. Women are even more abject than anybody imagined. Cattle. Offal. Hamburgers." I mean, who does that analysis help? Where does that metaphor lead? It makes the image of a leggy hamburger on her book jacket look positively chivalric in comparison.

Momus (Momus), Monday, 11 April 2005 21:50 (nineteen years ago) link

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/3/25/165734/959
http://afterschoolsnack.blogspot.com/2005/03/outrage-ad-nauseam.html


but the bondage scenario above is queer sex--or at least sex informed by knowledge of power dialectics.

anthony, Monday, 11 April 2005 22:05 (nineteen years ago) link

I'm not saying the military is right (are they ever?) but I can't say I ever expect them to behave in any other way either.

Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 11 April 2005 22:09 (nineteen years ago) link

Over the past 10 years, twice as many accused Army sex offenders were given administrative punishment as were court-martialed. In the civilian world, four of five people arrested for rape are prosecuted. Nearly 5,000 accused sex offenders in the military, including rapists, have avoided prosecution, and the possibility of prison time, since 1992, according to Army records."

WTMFF?

M. White (Miguelito), Monday, 11 April 2005 22:12 (nineteen years ago) link

Andrea Dworkin makes me think of a woman I've seen around NYC for 20+ years. She's a lone protestor, sets up her table on street corners and harrangues people about her cause. For many years her crusade was Stop Pornography. She sat behind a huge photo blow-up of that infamous Hustler cover -- a nude woman shimmying into a meat grinder, putting the sex as hamburger metaphor right in your face. She's little, but her sharp voice echoes down the sidewalk. FIGHT BACK WOMEN!! SIGN THE PA-TISH-UN!! Cantakerous and crazed, she'd eventually scare off anybody who wasn't repelled by the Hustler photos. (In 1983-85 I worked around the corner from Bloomingdale's department store where she was stationed week in/week out.) Every couple years since I'll see her again, though recently her cause has switched to Animal Rights -- she waves another gruesome poster of puppies being tortured and gathering signatures for the eternally unfinsihed pa-tish-un. One day in stroller-infested upper Manhattan, she bellowed in frustration: "STOP BREEDING, PEOPLE!"

m coleman (lovebug starski), Monday, 11 April 2005 22:18 (nineteen years ago) link

haha - man, those late 70s/early 80s Hustler covers are AMAZING.

Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 11 April 2005 22:21 (nineteen years ago) link

(and by "amazing" I mean in the same way Chuck Eddy calls Montgomery Gentry videos "amazing" - ie, still offensive and frightening but strangely unique and compelling nonetheless)

Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 11 April 2005 22:24 (nineteen years ago) link

and i dont know, i would like to trust dwarkin on the evil of heterosexual men and their engorged penises, her biography is close enough to mine for affection

but i realize i cant be seduced.

anthony, Monday, 11 April 2005 22:25 (nineteen years ago) link

Women have all the control. Go out to a club and just see who has to approach whom. Do women come to men? No. Because the hot ones know that by blinking their eyes and swinging their butt they will have men at their feet.

Dworkin just never got any. That was her problem - who would go down on THAT?

NamC, Monday, 11 April 2005 22:25 (nineteen years ago) link

namc this is the kind of offenisve phallocentric, hatred of women dworkin spent her life fighting...and people found her fuckable, people thot she had sexual power--reducing all of womens sexual power to nubile morons

anthony, Monday, 11 April 2005 22:29 (nineteen years ago) link

surely someone has already made a "calum = c. paglia" joke these long years past...

g e o f f (gcannon), Monday, 11 April 2005 22:30 (nineteen years ago) link

i think (sex) victim ideologies in feminism were some of it's most problematic features. it was perhaps started to give a voice to women who went through physical or sexual abuse and raise awareness of their situations, which was definitely needed. but instead of bringing hope and healing to people who were hurt, it sometimes just ended up assimilating a victim's bitterness, anger, and paranoia to the larger (perhaps otherwise healthier) group.

lolita corpus (lolitacorpus), Monday, 11 April 2005 22:32 (nineteen years ago) link

I'd rather read Dworkin than Paglia any day of the week.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 11 April 2005 22:33 (nineteen years ago) link

Paglia at least makes funny, pithy insults. Calum's never said anything funny as far as I can tell.

Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 11 April 2005 22:34 (nineteen years ago) link

namc this is the kind of offenisve phallocentric, hatred of women dworkin spent her life fighting...and people found her fuckable, people thot she had sexual power--reducing all of womens sexual power to nubile morons
-- anthony (anthony.easto...), April 11th, 2005.

Blah blah blah 'hatred of women' blah blah blah. Never met a woman who hated me as a person funnily enough and have plenty of them as friends and, shockingly, was brought up by them too. Blah blah blah - this is nonsense. Dworkin was a pig ugly obese nutcase and if someone only laid her back and gave her some fine oral she'd probably have revised her views a long time ago. As it is she was no worse than a KKK member telling us all blacks are the spawn of satan - only her enemy had a penis.

NamC, Monday, 11 April 2005 22:35 (nineteen years ago) link

What a subtle and intriguing retort.

M. White (Miguelito), Monday, 11 April 2005 22:37 (nineteen years ago) link

Calum, you have no clue what you are talking about (it's obvious you've never read a sentence of Dworkin.) Stick to horror flicks.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 11 April 2005 22:39 (nineteen years ago) link

gaze not into the abyss here, people...

Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 11 April 2005 22:41 (nineteen years ago) link

But Alex you're wrong. I have read Dworkin. And coming from SF where my SF buds are fellow lovers of T and A and splatter cinema and all things that make life worth living I am shocked and horrified that you'd defend this woman.

What makes SF great is just how sexually liberated it is. The Castro district is - like - now one of my fave places ever.

NamC, Monday, 11 April 2005 22:42 (nineteen years ago) link

I'd be rather surprised if she didn't get a fair amount of tongue, though I doubt it was from men.

M. White (Miguelito), Monday, 11 April 2005 22:43 (nineteen years ago) link

Calum I'm from SF too ya schmuck. AND I like T&A AND I like splatter films.

oddly, I still find yr sub-literate masturbatory fantasies really really REALLY boring.

Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 11 April 2005 22:44 (nineteen years ago) link

(and by sub-literate masturbatory fantasies, I mean every ILX thread you've ever started EVER)

Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 11 April 2005 22:45 (nineteen years ago) link

While I certainly don't agree with everything that Dworkin wrote (which even if you have read, Calum, you are clearly showing you were/are incapable of grasping) I would defend anyone from your infantile character assassination and insults.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 11 April 2005 22:46 (nineteen years ago) link

Well then that is up to you - you can find them boring if you want. But at least I'm memorable. I can't say I've ever:

A) Noticed you on this board the whole time I've been here

And/ Or

B) Could tell you one post you've made.

So you're clearly a very memorable guy.

NamC, Monday, 11 April 2005 22:47 (nineteen years ago) link

That's like a serial killer's defense, right?

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 11 April 2005 22:48 (nineteen years ago) link

"infantile character assassination and insults"

All I can say to that is that I'm glad you didn't crash our party in SF after all because if you can't join in on such things then you gotta be freaking boring.

NamC, Monday, 11 April 2005 22:48 (nineteen years ago) link

Yawn. Keep your excitement, Calum.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 11 April 2005 22:49 (nineteen years ago) link

"I don't even know you" Hahahaha!

M. White (Miguelito), Monday, 11 April 2005 22:50 (nineteen years ago) link

*snore*

Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 11 April 2005 22:50 (nineteen years ago) link

She sat behind a huge photo blow-up of that infamous Hustler cover -- a nude woman shimmying into a meat grinder, putting the sex as hamburger metaphor right in your face. She's little, but her sharp voice echoes down the sidewalk. FIGHT BACK WOMEN!! SIGN THE PA-TISH-UN!! Cantakerous and crazed, she'd eventually scare off anybody who wasn't repelled by the Hustler photos.

Whoa! This very person is caricatured in the first issue of Bob Fingerman's brilliant Minimum Wage. I knew the comic was drawn from a lot of things in his life but I hadn't realized that person was one of them.

Anyway, back to Calum's attempt to think. Oh wait never mind.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 11 April 2005 22:50 (nineteen years ago) link

Oh don't worry about me.

By the way - you'll find the nastiest post was at the top when someone volunteered 'pissing on her grave' but I said far worse than that clearly.

Or maybe it's just open fire on me again season. Let me break it to you bozos - if Dworkin had managed to change laws, which IS what she campaigned for, then you'd be living in a very sorry society indeed. Hilariously, everything about ILX's "right on" psuedo left-leaning BS is proven exactly that - because Dworkin really stood for sexual regression.

But never mind eh?

Oh - and if she had listened to my advice and lost some weight - as any doctor will advise anyone of her size - maybe she wouldn't be dead. Cos looking like THAT is not healthy.

P.S. Ned - are you still sitting behind your PC in LA?? Sheesh man, do you want some of my party invites? Get you out and stuff?

NamC, Monday, 11 April 2005 22:54 (nineteen years ago) link

Ah, sweetums. You don't snort Drano by the way.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 11 April 2005 22:56 (nineteen years ago) link

Seriously Ned, drop me a line. It cannot be good being in the coolest city ever and having as your claim to fame, "Guy from ILX".

In three months I had invites to all the cool shit. What have you been doing wrong man?

NamC, Monday, 11 April 2005 22:57 (nineteen years ago) link

If your mother looked like mine you'd snort Drano!

NamC, Monday, 11 April 2005 22:58 (nineteen years ago) link

Darling, SWEETIE. (You know, hearing Calum's every post now as Eddie or Patsy makes a certain perfect sense.)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 11 April 2005 22:59 (nineteen years ago) link

Is it working?

M. White (Miguelito), Monday, 11 April 2005 22:59 (nineteen years ago) link

"All my friends are HORROR FILM STARS, darling, ALL MY FRIENDS ARE HORROR FILM STARS!"

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 11 April 2005 23:00 (nineteen years ago) link

From the forum that is so hip with greatness and cool shit it brought you:

"Is suicide a rational decision"

Comes... Ned Raggett. Online 24 hours a day.

NamC, Monday, 11 April 2005 23:01 (nineteen years ago) link

Are you in there, Calum...burning joss sticks?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 11 April 2005 23:02 (nineteen years ago) link

And before anyone scofs at my notin that Los Angeles is the coolest city ever I suggest you loosers get out from behind your computers and get one party invite. If your life was filled with one tenth the excitment of mine your tiny little heads wuold explode. Los Angeles has anything anyone could ask for and before someone reterts "except culture" may I remind you that books and musseums are for loser types like who can't even get out from behind their computer and get invited to cool horror film fest parties and the like. Once again you facists expose your insecurity and complete inferirity to my intelligence and jetset lifestyle. And Alex I can't say I'm surprised to find you a bore considering you reside in San Francisco where a considerable portion of the city are like you if you catch my drift which you probably don't because you aren't as smart as me.

NamC, Monday, 11 April 2005 23:04 (nineteen years ago) link

Thanks to the thousands of you who entered our competition to win a rather special prize - the chance to go to the UK premiere of Peter Pan, which is released later this month.

Our congratulations go to the winner, Danielle Fitzpatrick, who lives in Middlesex.

Well done also to the runners up, who are: Charlotte White from Leicestershire, Joseph Matthews from Merseyside, Amy Fieldhouse from Humberside, Alex Sanderson from Suffolk, Callum Waddell from Aberdeen, Jake Baudet from the West Midlands, Lauren McFarland from Cumbria, Jamie Black from County Down, Ailsa Floyd from Argyll, Alexander Strettle from Tyne and Wear, Pippa Jolly from Devon, Sara Chan from Merseyside, Raisa Tariq from Surrey, Anoushka Patel from London and Andrew Gofton from Hertfordshire.

Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 11 April 2005 23:05 (nineteen years ago) link

I'm up late writing some pretty cool shit Ned. Of course I'm here. Like I said man, anything I can do for you - I'm scared you'll hang yourself or something from lack of a life.

P.S. Someone else posting as "NamC" - obviously - though the confusion rocks.

Dom - wrong spelling, wrong city. Not me. Sorry.

Namc, Monday, 11 April 2005 23:06 (nineteen years ago) link

P.S. Someone else posting as "NamC" - obviously - though the confusion rocks.

Pretty poor imitation of the real one here.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 11 April 2005 23:07 (nineteen years ago) link


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