Basic income

Six million Americans report food stamps as their only source of income

This made me so sad.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2014/02/labour-markets-0

genuinely interested in whether or not a guaranteed minimum income can be more than an idle policy daydream

https://decorrespondent.nl/541/why-we-should-give-free-money-to-everyone/20798745-cb9fbb39?utm_content=buffere7efe

Then came that fatal discovery: the number of divorces in Seattle had gone up by more than 50%. This percentage made the other, positive results seem utterly uninteresting. It gave rise to the fear that a basic income would make women much too independent. For months, the law proposal was sent back and forth between the Senate and the White House, eventually ending in the dustbin of history.

Later analysis would show that the researchers had made a mistake – in reality the number of divorces had not changed.

http://www.basicincome.org/news/2015/10/swiss-parliament-opposes-popular-initiative/

The "potential epidemic laziness" quoted in the article is the big lie at the center of our economy imho, and disproving it would be the biggest deal since the Reformation. Go Switzerland.

Also watching "Bridge on the River Kwai" helps understand where many unionists' problems with a basic income stem from.

Can anyone point me to good economic writing on the idea, e.g. addressing how it would be calculated, what its economic effects would be, whether it would cause inflation or why not, etc.

ill post some links when im not on my phone hurting

this is a pretty terrible idea imo. why not just have a negative income tax? why waste money sending checks to middle class & above? also i don't think a lot of proponents of ubi realize you would have to cut other spending to afford it (if it's a basic income that gives someone w no market income a decent living); it's like a (left) libertarian policy (Milton Friedman advocated it!) which isn't nec a bad thing, but a lot of casual proponents these days just add it on top of their pile of govt spending

the laziness thing isn't a lie, it would reduce labor supply. but that's the point? and any proponent of ubi should account for some supply response, you can't just confidently say people won't react to unconditionally not having to work to make a living

yeah flopson i would love some good args

I frequently explain my support for UBI by just asking "aren't there some people you'd rather pay to stay home?"

This is remarkably effective

lol

basic, income

Just watch bridge over kwai its all in there

I still think there's something about being industrious that people need. Or at least a unit does. I'm not sure if the family can fulfill that role anymore for a society. If enough money is circulating of course who knows how industrious people might end up being, or how different the definition of the word industrious might end up being.

In my estimation - somebody should do the research, but it's probably impossible for more than one reason:
1. there are a frightening number of white collar salaried employees who do basically nothing more than commute, badge in, make meetings, badge out, and commute.
2. there are a frightening number of creative, talented people who waste colossal slices of their lives just scraping to make rent in the service industry.

I'd like to send them both home with UBI - it's hard to see how they would end up being less productive that they are today.

Srs ring of truth there

I think a lot of people in group 1 probably don't want to admit to themselves that they are in group 1

cross-reference with boss thread

group 1 would be...interesting...it's probably easier to accept that you're not a productive white collar worker than that you're not creative or talented

There's a lot more ppl imagine themselves in group 2 I'd reckon. Also cross ref to management thread.

you can only accept 1 w/ the help of the facade that the 1-life lets you hide in

White collar privilege

the pre-condition of a facade is something i've read about

Well yeah you wanna make sure it lasts through the tough winters around here

i could be so industrious at things where i would never be paid

i already was for 7 years, it's called ONLINE FILM CRITICISM.

also whoring

interview with the guy who designed the finland natural experiment. seems to have been widely misreported (it is not a universal basic income, they're testing it out on ~100,000 people) so read this if you read anything about it. super interesting & exciting

http://www.fastcoexist.com/3052595/how-finlands-exciting-basic-income-experiment-will-work-and-what-we-can-learn-from-it

bring it

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/12/americas-need-for-a-family-allowance/420123/?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link

From the Capitalism C/D thread

http://blog.ycombinator.com/basic-income

50 years from now, I think it will seem ridiculous that we used fear of not being able to eat as a way to motivate people. I also think that it’s impossible to truly have equality of opportunity without some version of guaranteed income. And I think that, combined with innovation driving down the cost of having a great life, by doing something like this we could eventually make real progress towards eliminating poverty.

Hallelujah

this is certainly an unexpected development

kudos to them

i think basic income is a fantastic idea whose time has come and i agree that we might see it in our lifetimes but i'm not sure why i should be excited about Y Combinator trying to fund a study of it?

So it would be good to answer some of the theoretical questions now. Do people sit around and play video games, or do they create new things? Are people happy and fulfilled? Do people, without the fear of not being able to eat, accomplish far more and benefit society far more? And do recipients, on the whole, create more economic value than they receive? (Questions about how a program like this would affect overall cost of living are beyond our scope, but obviously important.)

this is still some extremely inhumane captain of industry ass thinking tho tbf

50 years from now, I think it will seem ridiculous that we used fear of not being able to eat as a way to motivate people. I also think that it’s impossible to truly have equality of opportunity without some version of guaranteed income. And I think that, combined with innovation driving down the cost of having a great life, by doing something like this we could eventually make real progress towards eliminating poverty.

this is good tho

i think basic income is a fantastic idea whose time has come and i agree that we might see it in our lifetimes but i'm not sure why i should be excited about Y Combinator trying to fund a study of it?

― Mordy, Thursday, January 28, 2016 11:36 AM (58 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

you can be excited by like whatever you want i guess

i disagree. first if basic income is going to work politically we're going to need to demolish the randian idea that communism makes ppl lazy and the only way to do that is disprove it. second even w advanced technology society is still going to require a certain level of productivity from its citizens. if food + shelter eg are extremely cheap than the reciprocal productivity from citizens will be much smaller to balance, but you can't give out more than your society produces? xxp

why are you excited by it?

i disagree. first if basic income is going to work politically we're going to need to demolish the randian idea that communism makes ppl lazy and the only way to do that is disprove it.

that's what they're gonna study, smarty pants

yes correct.

(that post was a response to "this is still some extremely inhumane captain of industry ass thinking tho tbf")

something can be necessary politically and also be inhumane in fact they often go hand in hand

it's not inhumane to set out to disprove a toxic idea

ok Jack but which girl?

Lol. jack seems the least bad of big tech ceos maybe

https://patrickcollison.com/ is probably less bad

i like pat c

No Jack is a Nazi sympathizer

He seems like he might be ecofash

He seems like he might be a) an ideological idiot and b) an idiot

either that or for sure a nazi

luckily he'll still have 2.6 billion to see him through the rough times.

who says that he will actually use the money to provide basic income to poor people? He only says he will "shift the focus" ... like he could follow the example of his buddy at Salesforce and give $30 million to a well-endowed university to "study" UBI

I know this is means-testy but if there was ever a group to single out for BI, it’s foster children.

https://theappeal.org/the-lab/report/guaranteed-income-for-kids-transitioning-out-of-foster-care/

pilot program just launched in St. Paul

https://www.stpaul.gov/departments/mayors-office/peoples-prosperity-guaranteed-income-pilot#:~:text=The%20City%20of%20Saint%20Paul,of%20up%20to%2018%20months.

these people appear to have worked it out

https://livingincome.org.uk

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jun/04/universal-basic-income-of-1600-pounds-a-month-to-be-trialled-in-england

1600 pounds of what?

I'm sorry.

churned butter. it’s radical but we’re living in extreme times

East Finchley?!

there isn't much to be learned about what impact ubi would have on society by paying it to 30 people, it needs to be nationally trialled, ya bunch of tight gits.

i need all the details before i relocate to Jarrow

at least it would cover a week's rent for a box room with no sink in East Finchley

it's going to have a different psychological impact on the recipients than a national ubi rollout would. With them knowing they are part of a small and quite lucky sample group. Their mentality is going to be that of prize winners. Wahey, I'm going to the bookies and the pub every day this week.

Pretty rough if you sign up for the trial and they stick you in the control group!!

"Sorry, sir, you're getting the placebo."

confirmation on the statement that 1600 HASN'T been credited to their account every month might cause them to have a very negative attitude

Pretty small sample group I thought.

Also, in the end this will just be another piece of data ppl can wave around to show that it's a good idea while the govt answers "no", right?

yup, pretty much like the other trials we've seen

a fascinating waste of time trying to evidence UBI when the counter arguments will all involve red faced journalists shouting about the workshy and magic money trees and the counter arguments will be successful

any idea that you can convince the UK state of is probably not an idea worth having

The fact that the UK is considering a trial of UBI surprises me.

I wonder if the aim is to try it so they can kill it off and say it has been discredited.

Or maybe the internal politics of government are more complicated than that.

I believe that on balance, UBI would be a good thing and could improve our society.

steady on there

I think this latest trial is being run by the Autonomy think tank, so it's not govt sponsored. There has been a three-year pilot of 500 care leavers running in Wales since last summer however. Think it could feasibly be introduces in some limited way by one of the devolved authorities.

Heartbreaking that every time we get media attention for basic income work, the inbox fills up with people desperate to be included in any trial – along with accounts of how a cruel, conditional welfare system has let them down

— Jack Kellam (@Jack_Kellam_) June 5, 2023

for real

Everyone is talking about a universal basic income today.

I think it’s a bad idea, and that we need Universal Basic Services instead (UBS) - where we have free education, healthcare & transport, alongside a massive expansion of social housing.

From my TED talk last year. pic.twitter.com/8rglnOiBHg

— Aaron Bastani (@AaronBastani) June 5, 2023

A rejection of UBI.

But if we can't have UBS, maybe UBI is better than nothing?

if ubi is offered as an alternative to basic services, its bad

It only makes sense as part of a broader network of services and controls on rents and prices, yeah

https://www.scottsantens.com/the-angine-de-poitrine-argument-for-ubi/

“ Two guys in papier-mâché masks from Saguenay, Quebec, have been playing music together for 20 years since they were 13 years old.”

Like the spirit of the piece but as they admit there's no actual connection between the band and UBI, as far as we know right now

the Quebeckers here will undoubtedly correct me but I think by comparison to the rest of North America Quebec is somewhat of a welfare state

Quebec for sure has a stronger social safety net than what you would find in most of North America but from what I've read about Angine de Poitrine both of these guys have day jobs (or I guess did before they blew up) so it feels weird that this is used as an example here for arguing for UBI as it seems to me like they could just as easily be used as an argument against UBI since they didn't need it to become this good at their thing.

Well I think if you read the article you will understand the point being made

I also think it's like something of a spectrum, I mean in the examples she cites most of the artists continue to work, but working 30 hours a week and having all of your needs met and additionally having enough cash on hand to just get some takeout instead of having to meticulously meal plan every week, all that stuff can add up and mean more energy and time to work on art or the theory of general relativity or whatever

Subsidize microtonal math rockers through a tax on diatonic music and 4/4 time. It could work.

I'm going to avoid tax by writing everything in 8/8 time and then play with a halftime feel.

Clever. My microtonal-subsidy workaround is to play fretless, but be very bad at it.

god i remember a few years before trump all of this (ubi, healthcare, etc) seemed within reach somehow. i don't see the train of inequality slowing down or even slowing its rate of acceleration in the u.s. or globally, even though some places offer more services to their people.

people need to break out of the absolute control that money has over their lives somehow. in very small or more substantial ways. maybe that's living with less, maybe that's stealing and violence and burning down warehouses. it's definitely got to be about breaking down at least some of the things that isolate us. at this point i really feel like direct action outside of the system is the only way out - not asking for more from the system, or for moderation and greater equality from the system. capitalism needs losers by its very nature. i find myself hoping that entire ski towns in the west just get fucking torched from wildfires. the earth's power to cleanse is ramping up in direct proportion to the actions of our population, and it doesn't give a shit how rich or poor anyone is.

I've been feeling the same way. I "joke" that my retirement plan is asceticism. I also think the best way people can protest this system right now is abstaining from it as much as possible. Read library books, buy hard copies of entertainment, borrow it from a library, or just steal it. Do something creative or crafty. I'm learning how to meditate, been thinking about getting more serious about yoga, taking long walks. I'm happier with these activities than when I was doom-scrolling and binge-watching. Those things are distractions anyway.

i'm feeling that post, beard papa

i go for a walk at my neighborhood park every sunday morning before i get groceries, and i always have at least one book checked out at any given time, both things i only started doing in the last year or so. its good shit!

Xp map - I think that ubi did get a bump in terms of sentiments toward possibility here in the US during Covid when so many people were getting unemployment and stimulus payments and not working. I know people whose Covid benefits were the most livable and stable financial situation they had ever experienced since becoming adults.