usmnt

the current crop of american players isn't any sort of disaster, they've been steadily improving and producing solid european top tier players like howard, bradley, dempsey.....there's a lack of really exceptional talents but sooner or later they will arrive

these sort of state-of-the-nation discussions about youth coaching are more apt for countries like england which have history/infrastructure/culture and still fail to develop players the equal of comparable nations

really talented bball players have been developing skills from childhood, maybe just not as 'formally' as some young soccer players

it just seems silly to me to assume that the best thing for the long-term health of american soccer is plucking really young kids out and, what, shipping them abroad to train with foreigners, where they will prosper in total isolation from the people that will eventually be their "fans"?

you mentioned that 19yo jozy went abroad---where do talented 19yo hockey players (who, incidentally, also start really really early...like 4-5yo) go? COLLEGE. if we focused on getting people interested in the college game, it could serve as the same sort of finishing school as it does for our other sports. if we focus more on developing young kids and putting them into farm systems either domestic or foreign that ~no one cares about or watches~ then we're developing players at the expense of developing the actual sport

*really* talented 19yo hockey players are in the nhl (but sure)

it's a chicken egg problem, of course, because as mookie said, no one watches college ball right now. i'm not sure what US Soccer could do to actually ~help~ improve the quality/profile of university teams, but i'm sure someone clever could think of something. and it would be way easier, cheaper, and more "american" than the alternative.

like, for real, if the NCAA soccer championships were televised and played in a biggish stadium, might that not attract interest in an "if you build it they will come" sorta way?

xp you know what i mean, dude

and again, the scholarship thing can't be stressed enough: there's loads of kids out there who are trying they're asses off to get improve their game because it might mean school---they already know they're not gonna be pro hockey players, but they might get some glory and a decent job afterwards

the scholarships already exist tho!

and it's sorta hard to justify any more athletic scholarships, for anything, when put in context of how our universities work

I think your argument hinges more on 'get people to care about college soccer' than anything else

that formulation is virtually ex-nihilo (xps)....even if the other conditions exist to make american college soccer desirable, the presence of foreign teams who regularly offer huge salaries to college age players will lure the best ones away

if the NCAA soccer championships were televised and played in a biggish stadium, might that not attract interest in an "if you build it they will come" sorta way?

that may well happen....but it will exist as an entertainment rather than an avenue for elite player development

ncaa baseball world series are televised and for the most part people don't care. even people who like baseball!

I think your argument hinges more on 'get people to care about college soccer' than anything else

― iatee, Friday, July 29, 2011 8:10 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark

well sure! and in caring more about college soccer, HS/youth programs will get better. and yeah, sure, our top top players will get spirited away to foreign clubs, if the project is Get America To Care About Soccer in the long-term, then bypassing college level ball altogether seems sorta foolish.

should be a period in there

that's all very well but you seemed to be talking about Getting America Some Players Bettter Than Oguchi Onyewu

for raising the profile etc, sure

if in some counterfactual history europe had some equivalently popular NCAA, i'd imagine it would be good for football, maybe less so for universities

i was iphonin it and sort of developing a thesis on the fly. scouting/training youngsters intensively might get us some better players in the short run, but raising the profile will be better for soccer in the long run.

i dunno---i guess i've heard a lot of ppl on the internet say that the one thing that soccer needs to be magicked into a real sport is a world cup win, but we win olympic medals all day long and it's not like anyone cares about fucking swimming

This topic has been discussed to death and beyond on BigSoccer. Not saying we shouldn't talk about it here, just that it's been gone over and over and over by aspie US fans for years.

The NCAA game is part of the problem as it currently stands. I don't believe it can be made into a solution, either. For one thing, they play with f'd up rules like unlimited subs. Their season is also crazily short compared to a real club season. That's why so many of the players go play for PDL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USL_Premier_Development_League) teams when they're not in school. Scholarships for soccer encourage the "JUST WIN" mentality among kids and parents where raw athleticism is favored over technical ability. That's fine as long as you're gunning for a free ride to school, but beyond that the lack of skill becomes apparent really fast. Out of the current best 11 of USA nat'l team players right now I can only think of one (Dempsey, who has a pretty amazing personal backstory anyway) that came up through the college ranks. I don't think he was in for more than a year or two before going pro. Pretty sure most everyone else either went through the Bradenton academy or grew up overseas and learned there.

The real answer, imo, is an expansion of the Ajax and other euro-style academy systems, something that is happening but still in its infancy. Bradenton is US Soccer's attempt at fostering that kind of environment, but it needs a wider network of clubs running the things with the sole goal of finding and developing players to really pay dividends on the world stage.

also nakh otm

well then

the american 'at least you get to go to college if you flame out' system seems...less evil than the euro-style academies

(I mean prob not w/r/t high profile ncaa football players, but that's another issue)

yeah, i think it's pretty sad how many kids here are thrown on the scrapheap with nothing to show for it

Yeah it's totally evil. One thing that has been a reason for optimism lately are NCAA eligibility rules regarding kids who play/develop in pro environments. Starting like last year they can still qualify for scholarships even if they've been playing w/ pros and I *think* even paid to play. Not sure on all the specifics but it's encouraging.

*changes to NCAA eligibility rules

But I mean if the discussion we're having is "how do we help kids who have good game get scholarships" than yeah, that's been happening. If it's "how do we develop cutting-edge players to go out and win big for 'Merica" then we're just kind of treading water.

The real answer, imo, is an expansion of the Ajax and other euro-style academy systems, something that is happening but still in its infancy. Bradenton is US Soccer's attempt at fostering that kind of environment, but it needs a wider network of clubs running the things with the sole goal of finding and developing players to really pay dividends on the world stage.

― keillor can folk anything. and he will, and has. (dan m), Saturday, 30 July 2011 19:57 (9 minutes ago)

did you read that long nyt piece on ajax' academy

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/06/magazine/06Soccer-t.html

can't fault their effectiveness but the treatment of the rejected kids is pretty cold iirc

You can question the effectiveness of Bradenton / the USSF though, at least in getting the most promising kids. Rossi was maybe always headed back to Italy but it seems to me they could have had Subotić and Rogelio Funes Mori if not for various fuckups.

what, shipping them abroad to train with foreigners, where they will prosper in total isolation from the people that will eventually be their "fans"?
I don't see why this is a problem. If they succeed and join top teams in England, Spain, Italy their matches will be televised and they won't be in isolation anymore.

Yeah Bradenton is far from perfect, it seems to me like it was some idea they ginned up in the 90s and it did pay some dividends. The fuckups leading to losing Subotic et al are systemic and a lot of people are hoping that will end now that various coaches (the u-20s in particular) have been fired. The thing that Klinsmann wanted all along was top-to-bottom control, perhaps they've given that to him now.

Oh and I have read that NYT Ajax article and I fully agree it's cold as shit, not something that I would want to subject my children to if I were a parent. On the other hand it seems like a pretty foolproof method for getting results. :/

Here's a recent example of youth players getting signed early

http://www.soccerbyives.net/soccer_by_ives/2011/07/chicago-fire-signing-gulley-as-homegrown-player.html

So basically it comes down to rights. The Fire have this kid on the roster, he makes a little bit of cash but he gets to train w/ pros in a pro environment and can play in reserve league matches w/o jeopardizing his college eligibility. If he makes it big, he can stay with the team and win games and eventually get sold if he's good enough. If not he can still go to school (and with some of the youth programs in MLS like Generation Adidas the league & sponsor will pay his way). It's a little less heartless than the Ajax model.

Yeah, the loosening of the rules for who qualifies as an amateur in the NCAA's eyes seems like a great idea.

Oh and after rereading part of the thread: The best hockey prospects play in major junior leagues and generally don't go to college. Only the real cream of the crop guys from college even get a sniff of the pros. It seems like a lot of goalies have been coming up through that route of late tho.

"Twice before, just the timing was not right. You know, I didn't feel right," said Klinsmann, who lives with his family in California. "And now it kind of came altogether and I felt, no, you know what, the comfort level is there. You know, the understanding of the job is there. I mean it needed maybe to grow in a relationship point of view a couple of years until I said, you know, this is OK. This is now kind of the mature moment for it."

he must have gotten sick of playing for an amateur side under an assumed name

so, klinsi's first callups, few surprises here

GOALKEEPERS (2):
Bill Hamid (D.C.United)
Tim Howard (Everton)

DEFENDERS (8):
Carlos Bocanegra (Saint-Etienne)
Edgar Castillo (Club America)
Timmy Chandler (FC Nürnberg)
Steve Cherundolo (Hannover 96)
Clarence Goodson (Brondby)
Michael Orozco Fiscal (San Luis)
Heath Pearce (Chivas USA)
Tim Ream (New York Red Bulls)

MIDFIELDERS (7):
Kyle Beckerman (Real Salt Lake)
Michael Bradley (Borussia Mönchengladbach)
Ricardo Clark (Eintracht Frankfurt)
Maurice Edu (Rangers)
Jermaine Jones (Schalke 04)
Brek Shea (FC Dallas)
José Torres (Pachuca)

FORWARDS (5):
Freddy Adu (Benfica)
Juan Agudelo (New York Red Bulls)
DaMarcus Beasley (Puebla)
Edson Buddle (FC Ingolstadt)
Landon Donovan (Los Angeles Galaxy)

fuck Ricardo Clark imo

whats the deal with TJ Delaney of FC Copenhagen? is he holding out for a place on the Danish team or not interested in playing for the us?

I've never heard of him but apparently he played for Denmark at the Euro U21 tournament this summer. What sort of a midfielder is he?

we've got a lot of midfielders tbh, it's everywhere else in the outfield we're lacking

like: shea, hamid, mexican-american dudes, adu
dislike: beas, buddle
clark is pretty o_O but I still think he has potential, has done well for frankfurt

hoping that some of those veterans are there to start working on finding the ethos/playing style that klinsmann has talked up in interviews, 'cause they're sure as shit not going to be around for 2014

asst. coaches are interesting too: martin vasquez who was at bayern and then got fired from fake chivas, also tab ramos

Could use some creative players in midfield, don't see any of the above providing that except maybe Torres and Shea. No Diskerud. I guess Teal Bunbury's been in a slump?

We are all Tab's Kids.

I think creativity in the mid will come from Adu & Torres in the short term. Can't wait to see Holden back in the lineup eventually. Diskerud is in the middle of his season, right? Bet he'll get the call vs Belgium.

boxall: i havent seen him play really so i dont know much about him. he came on against shamrock rovers last night but the game was already over really by that point. hes played for denmark u-21's as well though which probably makes him ineligible to play for the us.

no it doesn't. you can switch once if you haven't appeared in a senior, competitive match

Our singlemost failing, imho, is a lack of attacking flair and i don't see that changing here. We concede goals not just because our defense is shakey but because other teams know that our counteres and ability to press our attack aren't great. Donovan's OK and Buddle shows promise but w/o more killer instinct and finishing ability, we're merely chancers, albeit w/heart.

I'll take Agudelo all day over Buddle, personally. Possibly just grasping at Jozyesque straws with the kid, but he has shown a real willingness to take defenders on and go for every chance he gets.

Would take the actual Jozy over Buddle, easily, I can't believe he or Beasley are still in the picture.

I like Jozy but he needs some real experience and honing, nay, forging even.

He left MLS too soon imo.

Very possible. Where is he languishing on the bench, now?

Just signed with AZ in Holland, probably a good place for him tbh.