Why is casual racism/sexism more accepted in video games than other forms of media (these days)?

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High hopes for this turning out a smart and civil discussion like the horror films why not thread, deep fears that it will descend into madness fyi

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:32 (six years ago) Permalink

i think it's bc games are competitive experiences and competition brings out the worst in human beings

― Mordy, Wednesday, April 4, 2012 4:30 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:34 (six years ago) Permalink

idk i obv have some pretty strong concerns abt that wrt online FPS screaming idiots and the like, but i dont think that has as much to do with the games themselves (i mean obv its part of the experience but it isnt internalized content per se)

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:36 (six years ago) Permalink

some of it is cultural differences/lack of knowledge between Asia and the West.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:39 (six years ago) Permalink

do you guys mean disgusting behavior in players or the games?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:40 (six years ago) Permalink

i mean ive heard some commentary on this but a lot of the big arguments are a little facile and outsidery to me, like the idea that games are a juvenilized form of entertainment and thus more prone to juvenile thinking

xxpost yeah bnw that is def one of the things that i think factors in

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (six years ago) Permalink

the sexism is definitely audience targeting. and it is depressingly dead on.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (six years ago) Permalink

i am talking abt the games, not the players, but obv there is going to be some reflection there wrt consumers influencing content etc

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:42 (six years ago) Permalink

it's not just that consumers influence the content, it's also that game creators are gamers themselves and exist in the gaming community. they play on the same multiplayer servers and their customers, they're influenced by the same games...

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (six years ago) Permalink

-demographics.
-the fact that computer games, for fairly obvious reasons, attract less sophisticated writers than other forms of media.

zverotic discourse (jim in glasgow), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (six years ago) Permalink

was the new deus ex french? or french canadian? because thats def one of the weirdest examples of this - fairly thoughtful intellectual game and then whoa whats up with this homeless lady

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:44 (six years ago) Permalink

to be perjorative a bit, nerds' poor socialization extends to society broadly, not just socializing. and they get reeeaaally defensive when called on their shit.

combined with a post-rockstar "it's supposed to be funny!" attitude w/r/t this kind of shit and it's a toxic brew

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:45 (six years ago) Permalink

A big hook for many games is "by gamers, for gamers"; this means almost by design that a good chunk of regressive content is going to be present in the games since they are operating in this feedback loop where the social environment these games are created in is normalized to be incredibly shitty in a lot of ways.

For all of the equality for things like, say, making your character be male or female is a cosmetic change that doesn't affect your stats, you have things like all of the female iterations of the WoW races being as close to "busty cutie-pie" as the baseline skin will allow them to be (the undead and dwarf races are particularly comical re: this, but even the frickin' minotaur race has "sexy" female forms with cow heads).

xposts basically covered all of this but I am inflicting the concept of sexy cows on y'all anyway

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:46 (six years ago) Permalink

some of it is sort of legacy racism from the earlier forms of media that fed VGs? D&D, action movies, etc

xp oh god WoW haha

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:47 (six years ago) Permalink

how do you guys rank sexism/racism by systems? nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:48 (six years ago) Permalink

also, game content really not as important as ludic components (the best story can just barely redeem a game with terrible gameplay sometimes, while tons of beloved games have amazing gameplay and no story to speak of, or a really shitty story), so it's less important to designers to get stuff right with the content - which is where the racist/sexist stuff primarily exists

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:49 (six years ago) Permalink

actually feel like WoW held back a lot compared to some other games.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:50 (six years ago) Permalink

Skyrim has the same sort of issues. Like ... why does my lizard lady have tits.

polyphonic, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:51 (six years ago) Permalink

nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

have you ever played a Mario game??? also Punchout lololol.

zappi, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:52 (six years ago) Permalink

theyre not?

Lamp, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (six years ago) Permalink

mario racist against turtles?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (six years ago) Permalink

well sure, WoW isn't like Duke Nukem, but the point is more that the whole "moving comic book" medium that their art direction is based upon is super normalized in how the genders should be represented, to the point where even for races where it doesn't make sense for the males to be burly he-men and the women to be curvy sexpots, they still are

also, there's the female night elf dance (which is based on the famous Alizee clips that were zooming around the Internet in the early 00s):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taPuNAaMZ5w

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (six years ago) Permalink

copying this over from the other thread because i thinks it a very interesting and good point to think abt

i wonder if part of it is because games are often a solo experience (though not always of course) whereas movies, at some point in their release cycle at least, are experienced collectively? in other words, because the casual racism is easier for people to swallow by themselves as opposed to in a group?

― 1986 tallest hair contest (Z S), Wednesday, April 4, 2012 8:29 PM (25 minutes ago)

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (six years ago) Permalink

okay lol @ Mario being so mainstreamed that all of the "MAMA MIA" and "IT'SA ME, MARIO!" interjections don't even register as caricature anymore

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (six years ago) Permalink

i disagree w/ ZS's assertion esp bc i think the most racist/sexist behavior re video games happens in their most collective experience (multiplayer)

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (six years ago) Permalink

Yeah I think this is pretty easily chalked up to creators pandering to (and being born of) the overwhelmingly 15-35 male demographics of AAA game buyers. The women and men who like and play AAA games but don't like sexualized representations of women in these games (and also comic books) make their voices heard but the majority of the audience would be bummed if you took away their lizardwoman tits.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (six years ago) Permalink

duh DJP you cant be racist against italians anymore, the godfather fixed that forever

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:58 (six years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

ciderpress, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:59 (six years ago) Permalink

did Mario ever say those lines or are we forcing racism on the poor guy? are we blaming his video game char for his cartoon version? important issues in my work day

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:00 (six years ago) Permalink

"it's a-me, Mario!" the sound of booting up Super Mario 64 iirc.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:01 (six years ago) Permalink

lol gg then

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (six years ago) Permalink

fyi listening to that may drive you crazy

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:03 (six years ago) Permalink

the Mario Kart one is also insane

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zszjSeK_F5Q&feature=related

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (six years ago) Permalink

"So long, gay Bowser!"

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (six years ago) Permalink

Alot of this sounds like hes sleeping with someone. *barfs*
PeachyzeldagirlXD 3 weeks ago

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:06 (six years ago) Permalink

Do u say "ravioli!" when u fuckin?

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (six years ago) Permalink

did they really get roberto benigni to do the voices?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (six years ago) Permalink

Everybody knows that Mario's wet dreams involve pasta and Bowser.

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:08 (six years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

I worked at a gaming geek/comic book store for a couple years and this kind of stuff is everywhere. the idea that females without massive bobs existed at some point is lost on these people

Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:11 (six years ago) Permalink

haha awesome typo

"I like the writer but does the artist have to make every female character's hair so big?"

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:12 (six years ago) Permalink

i'ma luigi. nambar wan.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:14 (six years ago) Permalink

oh man my old college roommate used to say "yeah, peach has got it" in a squeaky ass voice all the time. mad nostalgia.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (six years ago) Permalink

http://images.wikia.com/logopedia/images/6/63/Bobs1.jpg

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (six years ago) Permalink

I never played the Horde side of WoW with any regularity so I didn't realize that the trolls were all Jamaican until way way late in the game when I started a troll character because I was bored. Reading the quest text for most of the starter area was PAINFUL.

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (six years ago) Permalink

there's a ton of gender normalization in movies too, yeah?

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (six years ago) Permalink

im def not saying that movies are immune but i dont think you can make the argument that movies even approach the overt O_O aspects of video games wrt either of these

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:18 (six years ago) Permalink

(I also used to play WoW with the sound off and either Vent or iTunes going, so I missed a good chunk of the voice acting)

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:19 (six years ago) Permalink

oh yeah for sure, and movies as a genre are much more mature. but it seems to me that anytime you throw a lot of money at a project (either a blockbuster movie or a blockbuster game) you're gonna end up w/ some pretty unreasonable gender representations

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:20 (six years ago) Permalink

re: relative badness of video games to movies, for that to be true then the racism/sexism would have to be toned down in game-to-movie adaptations, and it seems like in most cases it just got worse.

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:21 (six years ago) Permalink

also feel like games HAVE to make gamers empathize w/ the game in a way that movies do not - movies can take more risks that way

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:21 (six years ago) Permalink

Todd Solondz presents: Happiness, the Video Game

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:22 (six years ago) Permalink

I always thought Tomb Raider the movie was made just to quiet all the feminist groups that complained about the video game, saying things like "no REAL woman could possibly look like that", well, lo and behold

Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:24 (six years ago) Permalink

also in movies you actually have real actresses whereas if you're making a game you can just crank up the boob slider

ciderpress, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:24 (six years ago) Permalink

re: relative badness of video games to movies, for that to be true then the racism/sexism would have to be toned down in game-to-movie adaptations, and it seems like in most cases it just got worse.

Can you give an example of this? I think in many cases, it's more the medium of being presented something as a movie rather than a game making it easier to notice the source material's dodgier aspects.

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:24 (six years ago) Permalink

i know i am probably missing some counterexamples here but it seems like the new fallout stuff has actually done a pretty good job of avoiding these pitfalls considering what a massive game francise its been

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:25 (six years ago) Permalink

oh man I remember reading an interview with the creators of the first Tomb Raider game where the art director almost verbatim said "you're spending 20 hours staring at this character's bum so it might as well be a nice one"

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:26 (six years ago) Permalink

also in movies you actually have real actresses whereas if you're making a game you can just crank up the boob slider

there are a few real actresses I'd like to introduce you to

Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:26 (six years ago) Permalink

casual sexism is pretty accepted in rap music, along with casual homophobia and racism in the form of anti-semitism

congratulations (n/a), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:27 (six years ago) Permalink

I remember an interview with the creators of Tomb Raider, a few months before it came out, where they were like "if you're gonna spend the whole game looking at a butt it may as well be a really nice ass, high five broooooooseph *jumping chestbump*"

1986 tallest hair contest (Z S), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:27 (six years ago) Permalink

WTF??? Xpost

1986 tallest hair contest (Z S), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:27 (six years ago) Permalink

hahahaha

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:28 (six years ago) Permalink

ha there is probably something to the idea that the minute graphics got past the 8-bit stage the next logical progression was for game designers to think "oh shit now we can model T&A far more accurately"

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:28 (six years ago) Permalink

has anybody ever seen Z S and DJP in a room at the same time before

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:28 (six years ago) Permalink

boob slider:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_or_Alive_Xtreme_Beach_Volleyball

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:28 (six years ago) Permalink

also in movies you actually have real actresses whereas if you're making a game you can just crank up the boob slider

... why does my lizard lady have tits.

This thread is comedy username gold

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:29 (six years ago) Permalink

wd play all the games with massive shadebobs

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=shadebobs&tbm=isch

instant coffee happening between us (a passing spacecadet), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:29 (six years ago) Permalink

Seriously didn't see that since I'm Zinging it and I'm slow. that interview was apparently very influential for us!

1986 tallest hair contest (Z S), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:29 (six years ago) Permalink

The Dead or Alive series spent an inordinate amount of time working on a super accurate physics engine just so they could claim to be the fighting game with the most realistic breast bounces

lol this was xposted by dayo

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:30 (six years ago) Permalink

there's something to the argument that the fleshing-out of things is responsible, and that more sophisticated graphics/sound enables greater racism/sexism, but the dodgier aspects of movies are made dodgier by the movie. it's not as if it somehow revealed ugliness lurking beneath, e.g. casting leguizamo as luigi in super mario movie.

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:31 (six years ago) Permalink

They didn't really say broseph - it was a more innocent time.

Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:31 (six years ago) Permalink

there's some interview w/ the doa creator where he says he cares about the physics so much because he considers all the female characters his daughters or something

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:32 (six years ago) Permalink

wait, why is Leguizamo worthy of mention but BOB HOSKINS isn't

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:33 (six years ago) Permalink

hoskins transcends race and racism?
i'm pretty sure battleship: the movie is going to contain all sorts of jingoism and boobplay that wasn't inherent in the game.

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:34 (six years ago) Permalink

IGN: Is there by chance a trampoline game in DOAX2? We think that would be an excellent addition to the mini-games.

Itagaki: So we have to pick from a long list of minigame ideas and I'm pretty sure trampoline minigames were part of the initial list, but we didn't pick it. That's because of the kind of game that DOAX2 is; we have to be really careful not to make it seem vulgar. Certain activities show the women in a negative light.

So it's not so much about bouncing per say. The key to the game is love. When they love the character, how do they feel when they see the character do whatever she's doing? We don't want to make them feel bad.

(Laughter.)

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:35 (six years ago) Permalink

GN: It seems like that game is ripe for a wet t-shirt contest.

Itagaki: Well, it becomes the issue of love again.

IGN: So that's too far?

Itagaki: You don't want your girlfriend being seen in a wet T-shirt contest, right?

IGN: No, not mine. But it's OK for me to see other people's girlfriends... (Laughter.)

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:36 (six years ago) Permalink

btw here is the male figure you get if you set the "body type" dial all the way to its biggest setting on Star Wars: The Old Republic, and then there is the female option at the same chunkiest setting
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/6995/000grzxh.jpg

don't know if you guys can see the slight disparity, i mean it is pretty subtle

instant coffee happening between us (a passing spacecadet), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:38 (six years ago) Permalink

lol Battleship: The Movie is maybe stacking the deck a tiny bit, considering the video game context in which this conversation started

DOA3 is actually the only game I'm embarrassed to own; I bought it because the fighting got good marks (and it was a decent fighting game, if not really comparable to the Big Games) and shortly afterward they announced the beach volleyball game and I basically just wanted to die

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:38 (six years ago) Permalink

one thing i can definitely say about saints row 3 is that it is absolutely neutral when it comes to making characters morbidly obese

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:39 (six years ago) Permalink

the gameplay footage of Saints Row 3 make it seem to be flat-out insane

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:42 (six years ago) Permalink

also I am lolling pretty hard at SW:TOC's pie disparity

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:42 (six years ago) Permalink

oh ha trust me, SR3 is def insane. its also insanely racist and sexist while at the same time weirdly seeming completely not either. this is hard to explain.

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:44 (six years ago) Permalink

well part of it is that if you just go over the top offensive towards EVERYONE, it's hard to feel like anyone is getting singled out

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:45 (six years ago) Permalink

yeah thats pretty much it, when you are rolling around town beating anime nerds to death with a huge purple dildo the gloves are already off

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:47 (six years ago) Permalink

well part of it is that if you just go over the top offensive towards EVERYONE, it's hard to feel like anyone is getting singled out

― God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, April 4, 2012 4:45 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

except that this is exactly how horrible d-bags excuse their horribleness all. the fucking. time.

catbus otm (gbx), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:47 (six years ago) Permalink

wait jjjusten you are degloving nerds with a giant purple dildo?

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:49 (six years ago) Permalink

I'm watching gameplay footage of SR3 and it's just a lot of crotch punching

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:51 (six years ago) Permalink

like basically the difference between the GTA series and the Saints Row series in how they come across to me in their presentations is that I feel like GTA is trying to Tell A Story that I really have no interest in and also find at its core somewhat offensive, whereas Saints Row is basically just an excuse to string incidences of mayhem together with little concern for logic, character identification or plausibility

having not played either game series, I don't know if those impressions actually make sense

except that this is exactly how horrible d-bags excuse their horribleness all. the fucking. time.

in most cases, those horrible d-bags aren't horrible to, say, their white bro friends, which massively undercuts their excuses

there is also a difference between humor in entertainment and behavior in polite society and how a comment may be true in one of those contexts and false in the other

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:51 (six years ago) Permalink

So, Mario was voiced by Ahmed Best all along?

Spleen of Hearts (kingfish), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 22:00 (six years ago) Permalink

IGN: No, not mine. But it's OK for me to see other people's girlfriends... (Laughter.)

plz god remove IGN from this earth thx.

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 22:02 (six years ago) Permalink

IGN: How about having the opportunity to have sex with the DOA characters?

Itagaki: Well, we felt that would disrespectful to the characters.

IGN: Haha, yeah. How about forced sex?

Itagaki: What is wrong with you?

IGN: Haha, nothing. Haha.

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 22:07 (six years ago) Permalink

Haha, nothing. Haha

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 22:10 (six years ago) Permalink

that ign stuff does bring up a good question, which is why very little mainstream/conventional game review attempts to deal with these sorts of issues, let alone even mention them? like it kind of makes sense for somebody to have at least mentioned some of the crazy stuff that pops up time to time in these games, but frankly the only time where i see this stuff mentioned is on uh ilg tbh.

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 22:10 (six years ago) Permalink

b/c mainstream/conventional game reviews are all getting beaucoup payola from the publishers and again primarily written by the same poorly socialized rape culture audience

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 22:11 (six years ago) Permalink

Here is a picture of the interviewer:

https://twimg0-a.akamaihd.net/profile_images/841283041/DougPerrywdaughterVivi_1.jpg

polyphonic, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 22:12 (six years ago) Permalink

call CPS imo

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 22:12 (six years ago) Permalink

idk silby i dont think that mainstream game reviews are that tacitly dumb/unpleasant - again i wonder if it comes down to fear of the audience. like if you say that resident evil 5 might have a tiny smidge of racism the nerds are going to bum rush your forums looking for blood or something

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 22:14 (six years ago) Permalink

Oh wait this thread is reminding me: have we mentioned the massive shitstorm that erupted when Film Crit Hulk put out that first post deconstructing the weird misogynist shit in Arkham City?

http://filmcrithulk.wordpress.com/2011/10/19/goddammit-video-games-the-first-few-hours-of-arkham-city-is-lots-of-fun-but-super-duper-sexist/

Spleen of Hearts (kingfish), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 22:26 (six years ago) Permalink

oh man, that led to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb5ev2Dp4I0

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 23:28 (six years ago) Permalink

there was definitely some over-sexualization of the female chars in arkham city -

the sexist dialogue gets back to what i thought about the deus ex character: can you have a racist/sexist character in a video game? certainly you can do that in a way in books and movies and people don't jump on the writer as being a racist.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 23:36 (six years ago) Permalink

meaning can you have a racist/sexist protagonist?

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 23:40 (six years ago) Permalink

there are ways that an author frames/contextualizes the racism/sexism of the character that implies+creates distance between the author and the protagonist. the less of a distance between the authorial voice and the protagonist's, the more you have to wonder whether the protagonist is speaking for the author (or that their ideologies, at least in this regard, are aligned cf. joseph conrad). this requires an author who has a strong command of his own voice, and the voices of his character, or else even unintentionally they will collide, interfere with one another, other voices will show up (bakhtin says this is a feature of lit, not a bug). video game writers lack the sophistication + skill at writing to draw these differences carefully. that's the favorable interpretation. the unfavorable one is that their ideology is inseparable from their characters.

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 23:40 (six years ago) Permalink

That ign video ***holy shit***

and i don't even care, similar to how a badass would respond (Abbbottt), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 23:40 (six years ago) Permalink

i think part of the bigger question for me is why movies/books have largely moved on from racist (sexist less so) portrayals of characters but thats kinda frequent in VG world

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 23:42 (six years ago) Permalink

like why are video games still long duk donging it in the 2012 basically

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 23:44 (six years ago) Permalink

I'm kinda glad that I got out of gaming by the time GTA3:SA rolled around

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 23:46 (six years ago) Permalink

it definitely requires more skill if its the protagonist. but the thugs in arkham city are criminals that you beat to a pulp and you can do it with catwoman.

xpost to jjjusten - thats why I am less inclined to worry about my point. audience obv doesn't need any more exposure to racism/sexism.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 23:50 (six years ago) Permalink

bnw you should read part two which addresses both of those points

http://filmcrithulk.wordpress.com/2011/10/21/hulk-vs-arkham-city-round-2-bitches-be-trippin/

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 23:54 (six years ago) Permalink

still, if the punishment delivered to the thugs ever seemed like a response to their sexism, or the game in some other textual way discussed their sexism, ie if the sexism was used discursively in any way, it might've been different. instead, at best it's just a very shallow way to sketch out their character, and left undiscussed it becomes problematic itself. ie: using sexist language to indicate that these are bad guys submerges the sexism as just a heuristic instead of its own very real thing. moreover, i think the hulk's point (i haven't read his piece in awhile) was that the sexism in AC becomes this rote form of titillation - repetitive, constant, until its on equal footing with other banter that it should not be on equal footing with.

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 23:57 (six years ago) Permalink

i think what i'm saying is that you could write a video game with a sexist character, and have that character be distinct from the author(s), but a) sexism would have to play a more major, central role to the story than in Arkham City (you can't just have a sexist character and not have it mean anything larger for the themes of the game), and b) it would have to demonstrate the more serious consequences of sexism (the structural consequences, the violent consequences, the consequences for relationships and real women), instead of just leaving it with a bunch of thugs saying the word 'bitch' every 5 minutes.

Mordy, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:03 (six years ago) Permalink

this thread is starting to make me hate ppl

og (admrl), Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:08 (six years ago) Permalink

might have something to do w/ the fact that making a compelling game is arguably harder than making a compelling record or film or painting or whatever else -- not "harder" in that "there's less to them" but in that there is a greater barrier of entry to making a game -- meaning that the people who can make games are the ones who have to go through the traditional systems of education, where that kind of sexism and racism are institutionalized. we also have a generation starting to make games now who are going to kind of be the worst -- the early millenials who have "been into games" since they were young at least in NA are largely white, and largely male, and largely priveleged, because they are the ones whose parents would be most likely to be able to afford/be willing to buy game systems for their tykes. The elitism that comes out of that, where it's like Bob is more "legit" because he had a nintendo and Sally is less "legit" b/c she only started w/ games when she got a PS2 as an adult w/ her own money is a part of that previously-mentioned institution.

That said as more kids are able to get computers in USA these days and it's less of "a thing" maybe the next generation of developers will be cooler about this stuff (even if only a small minority of them vs NONE AT ALL of them) and we can get some compelling equalist works.

sorry if this idea got posted above, i just kind of plopped it out right now b4 going out of the house.

smash sbros (Will M.), Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:09 (six years ago) Permalink

gamers are the worst, and gaming culture is the worst. games tho are awesome bc they drip endorphins into your brain drip drip drip until your nervous centers explode with pleasure.

Mordy, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:12 (six years ago) Permalink

i dunno, if you want "gritty" batman video game experience, i think you're going to have to accept that it's probably going to come out as more trash than moral uplift. lego batman is pretty sexism/racism free i think.

Philip Nunez, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:12 (six years ago) Permalink

hulk makes the point that over two batman movies christopher nolan was able to make sufficiently gritty batman experiences without the word 'bitch.'

Mordy, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:14 (six years ago) Permalink

now, u know, nolan may just be our generation's greatest writer and thinker. or maybe not being a loud obnoxious sexist asshole is a very low bar that most gamers and game designers still can't clear

Mordy, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:15 (six years ago) Permalink

pretty sure nolan will drop a few b-bombs when princess catwoman appears

Philip Nunez, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:17 (six years ago) Permalink

btw I was on the metro a week ago around the time that school were being let out and when I was going up the escalator there was this group of kids behind me complaining about how all the good gamertags are always taken

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:18 (six years ago) Permalink

that has nothing to do w/ this thread but this is the only game thread I have posted in in a while

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:19 (six years ago) Permalink

"it's like dude you spend a month thinking of a good tag and then it's gone man"

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:19 (six years ago) Permalink

agree with part 2 some places, disagree others. don't think you can ever pin down intent and I don't fully buy his equation for tone/context. but game maker is still responsible for how their work is interpreted. that's where I would concede it shouldn't be in there.

xposts i like the nolan movies but that has zero bearing on anything, imo.

bnw, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:22 (six years ago) Permalink

why? what's your opinion? if the argument is that you need that word in your game to make it an appropriately gritty batman game, isn't another gritty batman game (especially a widely popular one) in a different genre a good way to evaluate that claim?

Mordy, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:23 (six years ago) Permalink

disagree because they are not going for the same tone

bnw, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:25 (six years ago) Permalink

don't think you can ever pin down intent &
but game maker is still responsible for how their work is interpreted.

these two are kinda sides of the same coin

dayo, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:26 (six years ago) Permalink

bnw, what kind of tone do you think that liberal use of the word 'bitch' achieves?

dayo, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:26 (six years ago) Permalink

lego batman's sort of gritty to be honest. i don't think the nolan movies are a bad comparison in that it equally comes off as trash in places where it tries to be gritty (c.f. bale's VOICE)

Philip Nunez, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:28 (six years ago) Permalink

bnw, can you elaborate about the differences you see in tone? i suspect that any differences you'll point out will not invalidate the point that the word isn't necessary in creating the tone of Arkham City

Mordy, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:29 (six years ago) Permalink

you gotta chill on that tact, dayo. i know its funny on the borad but it kills discussion dead.

i think there is more then 1 way to make a gritty batman story. arkham city is clearly not nolan's batman, takes about 5 seconds to grasp that. the judgment of whether it is "necessary" is where I get hung up. its not one I am comfortable with.

bnw, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:35 (six years ago) Permalink

not excusing its use here per se but i have some suspicion that game makers that are shooting for a teen rating but want to make things gritty etc might have taken it into account that "bitch" is one of the few swears that are going to be allowed within those boundaries.

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:37 (six years ago) Permalink

lol bnw sorry dude, you are hoisting yourself on your own petard most times

dayo, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:39 (six years ago) Permalink

stuff like this tends to be a little more useful discussionwise when peeps dont try to get personal imo

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:41 (six years ago) Permalink

but yknow ilx and all

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:41 (six years ago) Permalink

mordy - i think you could probably define those differences in tone, but when you get to trying to measure or quantify any of that in such a way that you could add or subtract elements and still have the same outcome - that's where I lose confidence in the judgment.

bnw, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:47 (six years ago) Permalink

i would like to see bnw mount a defense of the use of the word 'bitch' in the game arkham city, particularly as how it pertains to the game successfully transmitting its tone and voice to the gamer (assuming that the tone + voice is not 'sexist'). also, i'd like the defense to go beyond, 'i'm not defending the game's use, but i can see how if they lazily wanted to make it seem edgier, this was a pretty thoughtless way to do it.' or at least an acknowledgement that deferring to artistic choice, or to being non-judgemental (as though ppl never criticize all kinds of art for all kinds of things) is a copout.

Mordy, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:48 (six years ago) Permalink

xp does this hold true for all sorts of art? should i not give my opinion about a movie that includes a scene i think detracted from it? or a book from the 19th century with antiquated views on race (or a book from 2012 with the same)? i can see with some great works of art you might be loathe to start removing stuff (i love gogol and hate his anti-semitism, but i can't imagine excising it from his books), but c'mon, arkham city is not a great work of art, and the use of the word 'bitch' in it does not make it a greater than it would be without it.

Mordy, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:50 (six years ago) Permalink

btw who is the good guy that uses bitch in arkham city, because if thats supposed to be jack ryder or whatever (the reporter dude) i would say he only codes as a good guy because he is not a literal criminal? pretty sure he is never a sympathetic character or meant to be one

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:53 (six years ago) Permalink

also the fact that arkham city is at best a minor offender when compared to like most other games that arent pokemon level content prob says a lot about this question even given the idea that it is problematic in a sexist sense.

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:56 (six years ago) Permalink

i think you can argue it improves it or makes it worse. when you talk about removing it entirely, my radar goes up that you aren't giving credit to those ramifications. and then by saying - well nolan didn't need it - my radar really goes up that you are discarding a billion fucking factors that make my experience playing this game far far far far away from sitting and watching the dark knight.

bnw, Thursday, 5 April 2012 01:34 (six years ago) Permalink

For me, the problems in tone of AC are both in the sexualization of every single female character(incl. changing Harley Quinn's costume _again_) against either the history of the character or even their continually rebooted current selves, and the vibe/dialogue.

One can only shudder at what would have happened had they included Paul Dini's lifelong fetish, Zatanna.

I have more to say on this later, but there is a very definite difference between AC and Saints Row III(I haven't played SR2 past 10 minutes). SR3 is a deliberate and complete joke/cartoon/farce/parody/pisstake and a shitloada absurdist fun, whereas AC is a mash-up of takes on Batman that don't always work together and with a far darker and un-fun tone. There are bits in AC that read like what would happen if Frank Miller had done TDKR _now_, as opposed to how only slightly crazy he was 25 years ago.

Spleen of Hearts (kingfish), Thursday, 5 April 2012 02:20 (six years ago) Permalink

I think it's really sweet (but also, yeah, a little creepy) that Paul Dini has spent his entire career writing about a thinly veiled fictional comic book version of his wife!

Mordy, Thursday, 5 April 2012 02:23 (six years ago) Permalink

I think you got that the other way round; Paul Dini has been writing Zatanna for like 20 years now. He married Misty Lee sometime in the last 7-8 years.

here's her back in '06:

http://www.hyperborea.org/photos/comic-con-2006/img038.jpeg

God only knows how much Zatanna pr0n he asked Bruce Timm to draw for him.

Spleen of Hearts (kingfish), Thursday, 5 April 2012 02:32 (six years ago) Permalink

oooh. 100% weird.

Mordy, Thursday, 5 April 2012 02:36 (six years ago) Permalink

Correction: I have no idea what year they got married. I do know he got this own version of Zatanna published at Top Cow some years back, called Madame Mirage:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&old=1&id=10406

Based on his wife, natch. What can ya say, dude has deliberately retro tastes.

Spleen of Hearts (kingfish), Thursday, 5 April 2012 02:38 (six years ago) Permalink

kinda weird, but kinda makes sense, no?

Nhex, Thursday, 5 April 2012 02:52 (six years ago) Permalink

Pretty much. Dude's livin' the dream.

His dream, as it were.

Spleen of Hearts (kingfish), Thursday, 5 April 2012 03:31 (six years ago) Permalink

yup yup

but on the topic: i generally blame the same unfortunate demographic loop that happened with mainstream comic books, that for the most part, it's the young, straight male audience that is catered to with this kind of stuff, who then become the people making the games and so on. i say this as a collaborator, as I was and/or am still very much into modern games "for gamers by gamers" (thanks Interplay), if not necessarily the unfortunately attached sexism and racism that's already become a legacy

(once in a while, my mind gets blown though, like upon realizing that some of the people who composed my favorite soundtracks in the 8- and 16-bit eras were actually, gasp, women! at Capcom and Konami)

(side note: during the end credits of Saints Row 3 there are a load of production photos of the Volition crew - not surprised that there were a few women, but that any women at all were involved in that game lol)

racially it's generally the same kind of thing, add white to male (or Japanese, I guess, but it's not quite the same)

there needs to be more diversity in creators, a larger breadth of content and experiences drawing from more sources, and so on, which is slowly, slowly happening, i just hope it happens faster than it took for the movie and comics industries

but wait a sec - were we talking about the sexism/racism in the gaming "community" (unfortunately overshadowed by 12-year-old online FPS racist brats that don't represent me) or the systematic racism/sexism in-game content, stories, characters etc.? i was assuming the latter

Nhex, Thursday, 5 April 2012 03:59 (six years ago) Permalink

i intended to talk about the latter, simply because there isnt any answer other than like electroshock in the controllers that can really fix the former unfortunately

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Thursday, 5 April 2012 04:01 (six years ago) Permalink

also, Saints Row 3 vs. Batman is an interesting comparison i think, if only for the fact that they were both big AAA titles that came out at the same time, but tonally are completely different

Batman right off the bat, I felt a little uncomfortable at EVERY single woman in the game being referred to as a bitch, a rape target, or whatever (seriously). something about the misogyny being such omnipresent window dressing, that was never really addressed in the game at all except to say "that chick is hot" or "how hasn't she been raped yet?" or "she's a crazy bitch!" was odd. the Film Crit Hulk posts were pretty on point, I think.

saints row 3 though - the context is a lot lighter and it didn't bother me at all, though the sexism in it is probably much, much worse. one mission requires you to gun down a small army of strippers and prostitutes dressed as hot cops and bikini cowgirls. they have been "inivited" to a celebratory party for the Saints gang taking over a neighborhood. in the middle of one giving a lap dance to one of your gang members, she pulls out a pistol, to which your dude yells "THESE BITCHES ARE PACKING HEAT!" The name of this chapter? Trojan Whores. so, probably worse, but so silly and stupid as to get a pass?

at the same time i feel like i should feel some more outrage as i honestly do hate when people use that excuse "we're offending EVERYBODY!" as a pathetic excuse to use racist/sexist humor, ignoring their privilege

Nhex, Thursday, 5 April 2012 04:09 (six years ago) Permalink

heh all too true jj

Nhex, Thursday, 5 April 2012 04:15 (six years ago) Permalink

Who was it, even Talia al ghul has the exposed midriff deep hemline and skintight black leather

Spleen of Hearts (kingfish), Thursday, 5 April 2012 04:24 (six years ago) Permalink

i really think stuff like this is way more damaging...
http://images.swap.com/images/vg/96/1139096.jpg

Philip Nunez, Thursday, 5 April 2012 04:30 (six years ago) Permalink

yes, all that shitty gender essentialist shovelware for girls

http://static2.cdn.ubi.com/ncsa/parentscorner/website/img/babyz-fashion.jpg

and i don't even care, similar to how a badass would respond (Abbbottt), Thursday, 5 April 2012 04:37 (six years ago) Permalink

I'm not saying that's "worse" than anything that fedora guy in the odious IGN video would have devised, but it's definitely bullshit.

and i don't even care, similar to how a badass would respond (Abbbottt), Thursday, 5 April 2012 04:38 (six years ago) Permalink

They both stem from the same problem of not really seeing grown women or young teenage girls as people/

and i don't even care, similar to how a badass would respond (Abbbottt), Thursday, 5 April 2012 04:39 (six years ago) Permalink

Well more importantly re: the mechanics of this whole thing, as consumers I fear

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Thursday, 5 April 2012 04:45 (six years ago) Permalink

I should expand on that a bit, if this stuff is going to change at any point, given that it is pretty much a 100% business/profit driven venture, all the female non-white designers in the world aren't going to make a difference as long as the publishers keep looking at the bottom line and seeing it as sexstarved basement dwelling mysoginist violent high fiving dudes

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Thursday, 5 April 2012 04:49 (six years ago) Permalink

most of msntrm games guardedly transgressive misogyny seems less overtly harmful than the deep-seated misogyny of p much all major hollywood films, reality tv &c &c like the degree to which 'women in videogames' are divorced for actual real life women is so great as to render the whole thing sorta disgustingly ludicrous but ultimately less 'problematic' than the fucked up messaging in like 'friends with kids' or w/e

i mean idk i guess i think my problem is with the way the thread qn is posed cuz i dont think casual racism/sexism is so much less accepted w/in video games than that it manifest in different ways and even the baseline assumption that women as exist as things to project yr fantasies onto or w/e is sorta '...'

Lamp, Thursday, 5 April 2012 04:54 (six years ago) Permalink

like i guess if im drunk on the internet throwing together an argument like: 'characters' (enh) in games exist to serve as fantasy objects/projections of desire in more personal/direct manner than characters in other media & so theres less purpose in portraying nuanced/humanized characters, most characters are either conduits or roadblocks to pleasure &c &c

Lamp, Thursday, 5 April 2012 05:00 (six years ago) Permalink

"...hence, it exploits...people!"

Spleen of Hearts (kingfish), Thursday, 5 April 2012 07:30 (six years ago) Permalink

all the female non-white designers in the world aren't going to make a difference as long as the publishers keep looking at the bottom line and seeing it as sexstarved basement dwelling mysoginist violent high fiving dudes

absolutely could not disagree more. the kind of decisions you are talking about are not made at the $$$ level -- there's no cigar-munching guy who doesn't give a shit about games going "WHERE'S THE TITTIES" or something. those hands-off money people want to see 1.) sequels to successful franchises 2) whatever's hot (multiplayer modes, microtransactions, etc.) 3) shit they can write on the back of the box. it's depressing to say but i don't think the sex/racism is cynical. i think i'd be happier if it were. but the bottom line is the people who are making those decisions are at the """creative""" level. writers, artists, designers, producers.

on the comic book point btw isn't it a little unfair to say that that whole industry is a shitpile? i mean maybe i don't know wtf i am talking about because my roommate buys a LOT of comics but they're all like Habibi and Hark a Vagrant and Chris Ware & non Marvel/DC stuff. It seems that there's a lot of that kind of non-creepy-superboobs-type stuff out there?

that's a side note though. TLDR i've worked with & for a few of the bigger companies (EA, Atari) & a couple of smaller ones in the industry & i can tell you that the people who make the shitty unfeminist creative decisions are usually writers, or maaaaaybe producers (who are fyi the second-lowest paid people in the industry on average behind QA!) or maybe artists. Not shareholders and suits.

smash sbros (Will M.), Thursday, 5 April 2012 08:18 (six years ago) Permalink

i played an hour each of deus ex and arkham city at a friend's, having already heard the complaints about racism and sexism, and what i was struck by was that the writing was actually offensively stupid on every other level too

thomp, Thursday, 5 April 2012 09:24 (six years ago) Permalink

Haha, and to think, the two biggest sexist targets now are Arkham City and DC Comics.

Spleen of Hearts (kingfish), Thursday, 5 April 2012 12:26 (six years ago) Permalink

By the way, it seems to me that blog isn't really getting any milage out of the hulk thing. Outside of the caps and occasional reference to self in the third person, there's like no "hulk" to the style.

s.clover, Thursday, 5 April 2012 13:31 (six years ago) Permalink

and what i was struck by was that the writing was actually offensively stupid on every other level too

tbf this is a problem with videogames in general

1986 tallest hair contest (Z S), Thursday, 5 April 2012 13:39 (six years ago) Permalink

FCH has said that it's a deliberate affectation that's gotten him far more attention than when he wrote straight. I like his stuff. Yeah, he varies the amount of Hulkness by the post tho

Spleen of Hearts (kingfish), Thursday, 5 April 2012 14:09 (six years ago) Permalink

on the comic book point btw isn't it a little unfair to say that that whole industry is a shitpile? i mean maybe i don't know wtf i am talking about because my roommate buys a LOT of comics but they're all like Habibi and Hark a Vagrant and Chris Ware & non Marvel/DC stuff. It seems that there's a lot of that kind of non-creepy-superboobs-type stuff out there?
I didn't mean to paint the entire industry with such a broad brush - I'm well aware of the thriving foreign/indie stuff out there. But still, when you go to any given mainstream comics website (like newsarama, bleedingcool -boy especially these guys-, or comicbookresources), or walk into local comic book stores, the vast majority of stuff you see on the racks is still this. I went to NYCC a few months ago, and came to this realization walking through artist's alley that giant boobs are still what sells for a large percentage of these guys. It's getting better, certainly, but there's still a long way to go.

Nhex, Thursday, 5 April 2012 14:27 (six years ago) Permalink

For the record, the earlier conversation point from Will has been deleted and the thread is indexed again.
Though I think we'd all be interested in seeing that other thread will.

wrapped sausage stylus (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 5 April 2012 15:13 (six years ago) Permalink

rip my post

dayo, Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:12 (six years ago) Permalink

a lot of this handwringing is over a certain subset of things on any platform that seem to be mainstream exemplars, because that's what the specialty shops showcase, but they are actually a minority of the market. probably stuff like archie, disney comics outsell big-boobed grimace warrior stuff (hark a vagrant is definitely outselling frank miller's latest castatrophe), and the most popular videogames are more like angry birds, and that's only racist against pigs. movies and tv are still bigger offenders, relatively speaking.

Philip Nunez, Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:23 (six years ago) Permalink

Do they outsell in general, or just in places like Berkeley?

polyphonic, Thursday, 5 April 2012 18:16 (six years ago) Permalink

Angry Birds, just the first version, just on iOS, has done 12 million units, all versions and platforms 700 million downloads. Arkham City across all platforms ~5 million.

Smaller margins, but way bigger audience.

raw feel vegan (silby), Thursday, 5 April 2012 18:28 (six years ago) Permalink

Hark! A Vagrant by Kate Beaton
Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #3,838 in Books

Holy Terror by Frank Miller
Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #138,622 in Books

Philip Nunez, Thursday, 5 April 2012 18:55 (six years ago) Permalink

Ha ha, suck it, frank miller. pwned

Philip Nunez, Thursday, 5 April 2012 18:55 (six years ago) Permalink

i can say with some certainty that i will never need to buy a new frank miller book ever again

wrapped sausage stylus (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 5 April 2012 18:57 (six years ago) Permalink

http://i.imgur.com/bXNsGl.jpg

bnw, Thursday, 5 April 2012 19:16 (six years ago) Permalink

and yet they went with a butt shot

thomp, Thursday, 5 April 2012 19:39 (six years ago) Permalink

Plus all the male characters are still muscly male power fantasies and not you know

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6173/6171158228_5b3c3e0991.jpg

raw feel vegan (silby), Thursday, 5 April 2012 19:49 (six years ago) Permalink

I think the fighting game community is the same one that had a bunch of dudes earnestly defending trash-talking each other by shouting "get raped" and the like.

raw feel vegan (silby), Friday, 6 April 2012 02:33 (six years ago) Permalink

Did this get circulated around here or did I come across it somewhere else? I totally forget

http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/sexual-harassment-as-ethical-imperative-the-ugly-side-of-fighting-games

raw feel vegan (silby), Friday, 6 April 2012 02:35 (six years ago) Permalink

i saw that situation as a horrible example; that stuff does happen unfortunately, but the nature of most hardcore fighting games involving face-to-face situations leads to people being more respectful that you would guess, especially compared to online

Nhex, Friday, 6 April 2012 03:34 (six years ago) Permalink

good thread.

boring answer but i think this is mostly due to a) writing being secondary to gameplay (if this is even a consideration - v. often it is not) and b) videogame writing being completely terrible and embarrassing 100% of the time.

lots of folks have already said this stuff but i am serriously struggling to think of one well-written game and i have played roughly a billion of them. i don't think it's a coincidence that we're still in the dark ages when dealing with nuanced topics... we're in the dark ages PERIOD. so we get bad guys shouting 'bitch' at girls bc its easy shorthand for 'edgy'. lazy writing bc these people are lazy/horrible writers.

original bgm, Friday, 6 April 2012 04:39 (six years ago) Permalink

Earthbound & Mother 3 both well-written, you can count on me to parrot that anywhere.

and i don't even care, similar to how a badass would respond (Abbbottt), Friday, 6 April 2012 05:10 (six years ago) Permalink

the last express is better than agatha christie (but this is a once-in-a-decade game, for the most part yeah even/especially the games lauded for their writing do not have very good writing)

their private gesture for bison (difficult listening hour), Friday, 6 April 2012 05:14 (six years ago) Permalink

agreed on mother/earthbound, very sweet yet haunting games

last express was pretty damn cool, especially because of the way the action happens regardless of what you're doing, and how the game itself was designed around this real-time story with the rewindable clock and such

planescape: torment is legendary, though it could be the nostalgia talking... i haven't played it in about ten years. but i loved the plot/characters, and there was a beastly amount of sheer high-quality text in it

shadow of destiny has all the hallmarks of crappy video game writing - crap dialogue, shallow characters, environments, etc., and as a game it's not very good. but the plot structure is pretty unique and magnificent. basically the concept behind the game is that you keep getting murdered, and given the chance to rewind/alter your destiny, but of course things keep going wrong. then there's time travel involved and a whole bunch of different people and timelines start getting messed with, and a crap load of endings before you get the "true" one that ties everything together. but i'm a sucker for Groundhog Day-type plots

also, not as serious, but i think the comedy writing in the 90s Lucasarts games is very high quality, not just the dialogue but the creativity and general wackiness involved in the puzzles

i see the point there that the writing should be secondary to the gameplay, in general, though it shouldn't mean it should be sacrificed altogether...

Nhex, Friday, 6 April 2012 06:01 (six years ago) Permalink

Like with Grim Fandango and Tim Schafer, Planescape cemented Chris Avellone's legacy forever. I got at least one other Ilxor in this thread to play the game just by mentioned that Sheena Easton voiced the hot chick love interest in the game.

Spleen of Hearts (kingfish), Friday, 6 April 2012 07:48 (six years ago) Permalink

yeah i was about to point to Mother 3 as being incredibly well written, even before seeing abbott's post

ciderpress, Friday, 6 April 2012 13:27 (six years ago) Permalink

Planescape: Torment's real genius doesn't even start until you pump tons of points into the Nameless One's intelligence and his dialogue choices become ridiculous

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Friday, 6 April 2012 13:45 (six years ago) Permalink

Shigesato Itoi who wrote the Mother games is actual proper writer though, isn't he? (also the dad in Totoro!)
The best written games do tend to be the "show don't tell" ones though like Portal, exposition through cutscenes needs to die

zappi, Friday, 6 April 2012 13:49 (six years ago) Permalink

Arkham City was written by Paul Dini, the creator of Harley Quinn, which makes the treatment of her by the story an extra layer of creepy to me

also before this thread, I didn't notice the sexism of AC as being overt and off-putting, mostly because I spent most of my time leaping off of buildings and shouting "WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" at the television

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Friday, 6 April 2012 13:54 (six years ago) Permalink

I think you mean "WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE I'M RACIST"

wrapped sausage stylus (forksclovetofu), Friday, 6 April 2012 14:44 (six years ago) Permalink

I will admit that Batman shouting "WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE I'M RACIST" when he leaps off of buildings in AC would make this my favorite game of all time

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Friday, 6 April 2012 14:46 (six years ago) Permalink

let's get ZS on the phone and make this happen

wrapped sausage stylus (forksclovetofu), Friday, 6 April 2012 14:46 (six years ago) Permalink

The best written games do tend to be the "show don't tell" ones though like Portal, exposition through cutscenes needs to die

yes, yes, YES.

some good good examples of well-written games that I hadn't thought of. a definite 'yes' to earthbound (esp. bc a lot of the good stuff here happens while bumbling around and talking to incidental characters - it's videogamey and not just blindly aping the style of books/films), haven't played mother 3, and was considering grim fandango. it impressed me heavily at the time but it's been so long that I honestly can't say anymore.

I do think it's telling that we've only come up with only a handful of games but I think everyone is in agreement that these games are the exception (and a minor one at that) and not the rule anyway.

original bgm, Friday, 6 April 2012 15:10 (six years ago) Permalink

also, wow @ itoi being the dad in totoro!

original bgm, Friday, 6 April 2012 15:11 (six years ago) Permalink

Mother 3 much better written than Mother 2/Earthbound IMO.
Wld argue all the Phoenix Wright games were well-written, funny and sometimes suspenseful. Good female characters in those, too! Though not without some vid game yuckiness eg Trucy's magic panties.

and i don't even care, similar to how a badass would respond (Abbbottt), Friday, 6 April 2012 15:21 (six years ago) Permalink

oh videogamepanties

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Friday, 6 April 2012 15:22 (six years ago) Permalink

hahaha

original bgm, Friday, 6 April 2012 15:25 (six years ago) Permalink

feel that Bungie's games, esp. Marathon, are usually well-written although obv a tremendous dearth of female characters

dayo, Friday, 6 April 2012 15:32 (six years ago) Permalink

a big factor that hasn't been directly mentioned yet is JAPAN. Japan is a sexist society and most of their art also includes that. and their video games make up a big part of the market.

http://i.imgur.com/V593t.jpg

the acquisition and practice of music is unfavourable to the health of (abanana), Friday, 6 April 2012 16:13 (six years ago) Permalink

i know i am probably missing some counterexamples here but it seems like the new fallout stuff has actually done a pretty good job of avoiding these pitfalls considering what a massive game francise its been

― sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, April 4, 2012 4:25 PM (2 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ha i have the feeling that the fallout games would be better if there was more racism and sexism in them! mostly because i have the cynical feeling that if a 50's dreamworld collapsed into nuclear terror things would get racialist and bigman-dominated really quickly. you get a few 'bad pimp' characters here and there, and some evil psycho rapist villains, and there's the lingering presence of bigotry against ghouls which kind of stands in for other kids of prejudice.

but really there are moments when i felt like the game's unspoken racial equality and gay-positivity felt like, idk, controversy avoidance more than anything? maybe i'm too deep in the liberal bubble.

the fallout world is free of the the kind of hatefulness we see irl. people want to kill each other but not for the reasons people want to kill each other now, if that makes sense.

goole, Friday, 6 April 2012 16:27 (six years ago) Permalink

that's where things get dicey. when to be culturally tolerant means tolerating bigotry/sexism/etc. xpost

bnw, Friday, 6 April 2012 16:28 (six years ago) Permalink

That cooking mama comic would be a lot funnier if they didn't have her getting beat the fuck up in it, what the hell.

and i don't even care, similar to how a badass would respond (Abbbottt), Friday, 6 April 2012 16:30 (six years ago) Permalink

Plus it activates the ILX/grad school-induced part of my brain that wants to sneer at its unsophisticated understanding of 'power structures.'
But anyway lol, the punchline is: submission by violence.

and i don't even care, similar to how a badass would respond (Abbbottt), Friday, 6 April 2012 16:32 (six years ago) Permalink

Plus there is the reactionary 'modern Bust magazine is half about crafting feminist' part of my brain that says wtf is wrong w/being a cooking, crafting mama anyway. That after I libeled those Imagine Girlz Makeup games.

and i don't even care, similar to how a badass would respond (Abbbottt), Friday, 6 April 2012 16:34 (six years ago) Permalink

I thought cooking mama is a fun game; I like chopping daikon irl and on vid games.

and i don't even care, similar to how a badass would respond (Abbbottt), Friday, 6 April 2012 16:35 (six years ago) Permalink

ALSO I think it's wrong to say "JAPAN is sexist and that's the big factor," U.S. and Japan not in some kind of sexism contest, and if they were I don't honestly know who would win. U.S. is sexist too and to blame all this on Japan and not the ppl in the U.S. buying/supporting/etc this seems....not "casually racist," but...let me dial up Momus here, he would have some things to say about this.

and i don't even care, similar to how a badass would respond (Abbbottt), Friday, 6 April 2012 16:39 (six years ago) Permalink

i don't play many japanese games, doesn't seem that relevant to me.

the loci of video game sexism that i think of like penny arcade are US of A

goole, Friday, 6 April 2012 16:43 (six years ago) Permalink

Japan being sexist is a big factor on Japanese games being sexist. I am not commenting on games from other countries there.

the acquisition and practice of music is unfavourable to the health of (abanana), Friday, 6 April 2012 16:45 (six years ago) Permalink

I think that comic is more casually racist/sexist than Cooking Mama, is what I'm saying.

and i don't even care, similar to how a badass would respond (Abbbottt), Friday, 6 April 2012 16:46 (six years ago) Permalink

but really there are moments when i felt like the game's unspoken racial equality and gay-positivity felt like, idk, controversy avoidance more than anything? maybe i'm too deep in the liberal bubble.

― goole, Friday, April 6, 2012 12:27 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

i dont think its controversy avoidance so much as a conscious attempt to go against the grain! it certainly caused more controversy than if there hadn't been any gay characters in it at all. je sawyer wrote something cool on this topic:

http://twofoldsilence.diogenes-lamp.info/2011/06/platonic-forms-of-marginalized.html

these pretzels are makeing me horney (Hungry4Ass), Friday, 6 April 2012 16:46 (six years ago) Permalink

holy lol

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Friday, 6 April 2012 16:48 (six years ago) Permalink

gamers are so smart

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Friday, 6 April 2012 16:48 (six years ago) Permalink

haha damn ppl are so ignorant

i guess what i'm trying to say is, the game would have felt more real to me, and braver, if there was NOT ONLY a great gay character like arcade gannon, but also some asshole who's like "what are you doing rolling around with this faggot?" i can't fully understand why there wasn't tho

iirc there were some sublimated hints here and there that people think the Legion is a bunch of angry gays, right?

(i'll have to read that sawyer piece)

goole, Friday, 6 April 2012 16:52 (six years ago) Permalink

veronica mentions her ex-girlfriend's Brotherhood of Steel family not looking kindly on their relationship

their private gesture for bison (difficult listening hour), Friday, 6 April 2012 16:56 (six years ago) Permalink

what i dig in fallout are the NCR recruitment posters that say "LADIES! EVERY ONE OF YOU THAT SERVES IS A SLAP ACROSS CAESAR'S FACE!"

their private gesture for bison (difficult listening hour), Friday, 6 April 2012 16:58 (six years ago) Permalink

"the fallout world is free of the the kind of hatefulness we see irl. people want to kill each other but not for the reasons people want to kill each other now, if that makes sense."

i disagree that it is a gamemaker's responsibility to provide the hatefulness. that's the gamer's job.

Philip Nunez, Friday, 6 April 2012 18:04 (six years ago) Permalink

abbs otm

dayo, Friday, 6 April 2012 18:12 (six years ago) Permalink

yeah agreed.

wrapped sausage stylus (forksclovetofu), Friday, 6 April 2012 18:14 (six years ago) Permalink

yeah, lets dial up momus so he can justify his yellow fever over submissive women to us.

bnw, Friday, 6 April 2012 18:27 (six years ago) Permalink

why did momus stop posting here

these pretzels are makeing me horney (Hungry4Ass), Friday, 6 April 2012 18:28 (six years ago) Permalink

he was banned iirc

wrapped sausage stylus (forksclovetofu), Friday, 6 April 2012 18:30 (six years ago) Permalink

Too busy jacking it onto his girlfriend's face.

It's true; dude used to post about that unreservedly.

xp or that too

Spleen of Hearts (kingfish), Friday, 6 April 2012 18:34 (six years ago) Permalink

btw there are crazy japanese rape games that are not sold in the US iirc. so good luck putting that on the American consumer.

bnw, Friday, 6 April 2012 18:36 (six years ago) Permalink

Part of why the racist/sexist bits can get downplayed in the Fallout world is that you have a clear external enemy that everybody could project their animus against: super mutants and ghouls. With supermutants running around actively trying to ice normals, and rabid ghouls serving in the place of zombies, those should easily fill the slot of "shit to fear & hate" before all the humans get around to going at other humans.

I hope in the upcoming Wasteland 2 kickstarter project, they keep a satirical or just funny tone to everything, only basing it on 80s ideas instead of post-war/pre-cuban-missile-crisis ones

Spleen of Hearts (kingfish), Friday, 6 April 2012 18:38 (six years ago) Permalink

are japan rape games really chart toppers though? i really think japan's cultural influence on video games esp w/r/t nintendo is more infantilization (and therefore inherently less racist, less sexist) there's really no way around being disgusting if you want games that are more "mature". if they're handled poorly, they're going to be disgusting, and even if they're handled well, they're still going to be disgusting.

Philip Nunez, Friday, 6 April 2012 19:00 (six years ago) Permalink

I guess the only solution is to start importing vid games from all the world's many sexually progressive, wholly egalitarian countries.

and i don't even care, similar to how a badass would respond (Abbbottt), Friday, 6 April 2012 19:12 (six years ago) Permalink

utopiastan's video games are totally awesome

wrapped sausage stylus (forksclovetofu), Friday, 6 April 2012 19:14 (six years ago) Permalink

tbh if I lived in that country I wouldn't need the numbing escape of vid games

and i don't even care, similar to how a badass would respond (Abbbottt), Friday, 6 April 2012 19:15 (six years ago) Permalink

lol abbs otm again

goole, Friday, 6 April 2012 19:16 (six years ago) Permalink

i really think japan's cultural influence on video games esp w/r/t nintendo is more infantilization (and therefore inherently less racist, less sexist)

are you fucking kidding me

do you not really remember, for example, Barrett in FFVII, or all of the grossly exaggerated Italianisms from the Mario games that I posted upthread, or this:

oh no! SPANKING VIDEO GAME! oh no!

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Friday, 6 April 2012 19:18 (six years ago) Permalink

xp the reason they're totally awesome is because you live them

wrapped sausage stylus (forksclovetofu), Friday, 6 April 2012 19:19 (six years ago) Permalink

mario only gets progressively racist the more gritty and "real" he gets. you'd need to have 'call of duty' level mario to really get offensive.

Philip Nunez, Friday, 6 April 2012 19:21 (six years ago) Permalink

Can I say the world's progressive/sexually explicit video games also sound boring and creepy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Life_%28video_game%29

"Night Life was marketed as an aid for the sex life of couples. It included such features as a schedule to determine a woman's period, and a catalog of possible sexual positions, with artwork consisting of black-and-white outlines."

and i don't even care, similar to how a badass would respond (Abbbottt), Friday, 6 April 2012 19:24 (six years ago) Permalink

Maybe just that one does.

and i don't even care, similar to how a badass would respond (Abbbottt), Friday, 6 April 2012 19:24 (six years ago) Permalink

Different aims of a product. when games are designed without the actual gameplay or game-ness forefront, you can get drops in quality. Its one of the reasons educational or advocacy games aren't as good; their primary focus is on teaching or advocacy, not necessary on badass gamery. Implicit messaging in a game because explicit, and subtext becomes text, tending to make you a helluva lot less likely to accept or consume it.

thus the boringness.

Spleen of Hearts (kingfish), Friday, 6 April 2012 19:32 (six years ago) Permalink

it makes more sense to compare those Japanese sex games to Japanese pornography, which it's very much in line with

Nhex, Friday, 6 April 2012 19:34 (six years ago) Permalink

Abbottttt were you also offended by the chappelle wayne brady skit

the acquisition and practice of music is unfavourable to the health of (abanana), Friday, 6 April 2012 19:38 (six years ago) Permalink

I was offended by the horrible cgi

Spleen of Hearts (kingfish), Friday, 6 April 2012 20:13 (six years ago) Permalink

i guess what i'm trying to say is, the game would have felt more real to me, and braver, if there was NOT ONLY a great gay character like arcade gannon, but also some asshole who's like "what are you doing rolling around with this faggot?" i can't fully understand why there wasn't tho

ha this was p much the source of my question about whether mass effect lets you roleplay a homophobe

thomp, Saturday, 7 April 2012 06:08 (six years ago) Permalink

ernest adams & the Straight Male Gamer http://www.nomorelost.org/2011/04/08/equality-in-the-gaming-industry-interview-with-ernest-adams/

ogmor, Friday, 13 April 2012 18:01 (six years ago) Permalink

innerestin'

Nhex, Friday, 13 April 2012 23:31 (six years ago) Permalink

two months pass...

Female games journalist vs E3:
http://www.kotaku.com.au/2012/06/513794/

instant coffee happening between us (a passing spacecadet), Monday, 18 June 2012 22:30 (six years ago) Permalink

dunno about that article but i will say that i'm kinda astonished E3 still does the booth babe thing
like how insulting and fratboy is that?

Authorities don't know who shot the 50 Cent the goose. (forksclovetofu), Monday, 18 June 2012 23:30 (six years ago) Permalink

basically the maximum possible amount

"Holy crap," I mutter, as he gently taps my area (silby), Monday, 18 June 2012 23:32 (six years ago) Permalink

for a sec i thought that journo article was gonna be one of those freaky pro-ESDF things

Nhex, Monday, 18 June 2012 23:56 (six years ago) Permalink

then i finished it and was a little sadder

Nhex, Monday, 18 June 2012 23:57 (six years ago) Permalink

why is esdf better than wasd?

un® (dayo), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 00:01 (six years ago) Permalink

I'd assume b/c ESDF would have your hand in the homerow position but that's the first I've heard of this particular thing

"Holy crap," I mutter, as he gently taps my area (silby), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 00:19 (six years ago) Permalink

i take no position on it, as a lefty anyway
http://use-esdf.org/

Nhex, Tuesday, 19 June 2012 00:42 (six years ago) Permalink

ugh the comments on that kotaku piece...

Sisig Steve (stevie), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 06:45 (six years ago) Permalink

The Kotaku piece made me fucking boiling mad, and I havent involved myself in the games feminism thing that much as I'm not a huge gamer. But faaark, the patronising attitude is coming out all over the place lately, every time a woman pipes up and says "guys you know what? This shit actually isn't cool" they end up with a barrage of "die you bitch whore" abuse.

My male gamer friends are astonished at the vitriol. And that makes me even sadder, that they would be suprised it exists.

Pureed Moods (Trayce), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 07:00 (six years ago) Permalink

Laura Hudson, the recently ex-editor of Comicsalliance, was excellent at publishing stories that explored questions of gender and sexism in comics, and her reward was a never ending tirade of sexist bullshit in the comments boxes. Comics and Video Games fandom just seem really regressive and repellent to me; not sure if they're actually any worse that other realms of fandom, but they make no effort - or lack the self-awareness to - mask it.

Sisig Steve (stevie), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 09:59 (six years ago) Permalink

Also, ex-ilxor, as she was the original mod on ILG with me

Fiendish Doctor Wu! (kingfish), Friday, 22 June 2012 18:00 (six years ago) Permalink

I think part of it is that geek and nerd subculture is full of geeks and nerds i.e. people who have a gradient of ASD/socialization problems.

And the Internet is a great way to express unfiltered idiocy. Like sports talk radio.

Fiendish Doctor Wu! (kingfish), Friday, 22 June 2012 18:03 (six years ago) Permalink

i wouldn't blame nerddom -- puzzle-game geeks and archie comic nerds aren't spewing ugliness.

Philip Nunez, Friday, 22 June 2012 18:25 (six years ago) Permalink

Probably because those are mainly women in those categories

Fiendish Doctor Wu! (kingfish), Friday, 22 June 2012 18:31 (six years ago) Permalink

they're still nerds!

Philip Nunez, Friday, 22 June 2012 18:43 (six years ago) Permalink

Yeah, I'll take a random enthusiast over a random Xbox player any day.

Andrew Farrell, Friday, 22 June 2012 19:21 (six years ago) Permalink

Well, yeah, no question there, but I think that if you want an area where unsocialized obsessive dudes wind up, nerd culture has a far lower physical barrier to entry than say football

Fiendish Doctor Wu! (kingfish), Friday, 22 June 2012 19:40 (six years ago) Permalink

ASD/socialization problems no excuse for being a totally vile misogynist

the magic butterfly made everyone feel relaxed (Abbbottt), Friday, 22 June 2012 21:53 (six years ago) Permalink

even if that is the case

the magic butterfly made everyone feel relaxed (Abbbottt), Friday, 22 June 2012 21:53 (six years ago) Permalink

I don't know that it's fair to suggest the two overlap

the magic butterfly made everyone feel relaxed (Abbbottt), Friday, 22 June 2012 21:54 (six years ago) Permalink

yeah, there's enough problems without adding on mysogyny

Nhex, Friday, 22 June 2012 22:51 (six years ago) Permalink

Not excusing it, just saying I ain't surprised

Fiendish Doctor Wu! (kingfish), Saturday, 23 June 2012 02:38 (six years ago) Permalink

I dont think the kind of gamers who abuse people in comments boxes or over their Gears of War headset are nerds, is the thing to be honest. They're jock bullies, just like they would be on the footy field or at a bar. Its just that playing video games isnt uncool anymore - esp games like GoW, Halo, GTA etc.

Pureed Moods (Trayce), Saturday, 23 June 2012 02:44 (six years ago) Permalink

uh, yeah they are nerds.

tell it to my arse (jim in glasgow), Saturday, 23 June 2012 03:49 (six years ago) Permalink

unless "jocks" are really into leaving comments on kotaku articles on your planet.

tell it to my arse (jim in glasgow), Saturday, 23 June 2012 03:52 (six years ago) Permalink

Actually I know plenty of pretty unnerdy guys who play video games, is all im sayin. Unless 'uses a computer' is all that makes someone a nerd!?

Pureed Moods (Trayce), Saturday, 23 June 2012 04:18 (six years ago) Permalink

as do i, but they wouldn't even know what kotaku is.

tell it to my arse (jim in glasgow), Saturday, 23 June 2012 04:23 (six years ago) Permalink

The internet has made me hate "nerds".

circa1916, Saturday, 23 June 2012 04:42 (six years ago) Permalink

I love nerdy shit but I haaaaaatttte "nerd culture"

fancy poodle (latebloomer), Thursday, 28 June 2012 00:42 (six years ago) Permalink

I dont think the kind of gamers who abuse people in comments boxes or over their Gears of War headset are nerds, is the thing to be honest. They're jock bullies, just like they would be on the footy field or at a bar. Its just that playing video games isnt uncool anymore - esp games like GoW, Halo, GTA etc.

― Pureed Moods (Trayce), Friday, June 22, 2012 10:44 PM (5 days ago) Bookmark

nah ime these would be bona fide nerds

Faith in Humanity: Restored (dayo), Thursday, 28 June 2012 00:45 (six years ago) Permalink

I don't know why we have to classify people into buckets like "nerds" and "jocks", lots of people have jockish tendencies if they don't have to back up things that they or risk getting their ass kicked.

frogbs, Thursday, 28 June 2012 01:40 (six years ago) Permalink

frogbs are you a nerd or a jock

Faith in Humanity: Restored (dayo), Thursday, 28 June 2012 01:41 (six years ago) Permalink

start a poll thread

Mordy, Thursday, 28 June 2012 01:43 (six years ago) Permalink

jock'cuse!

Philip Nunez, Thursday, 28 June 2012 01:44 (six years ago) Permalink

uhhh take one guess dayo

frogbs, Thursday, 28 June 2012 02:30 (six years ago) Permalink

I think bro or brah is a far better and less 20th Century designation than jock.

Fiendish Doctor Wu! (kingfish), Thursday, 28 June 2012 07:22 (six years ago) Permalink

Okay the thing that really made me lol in that article aside from "bro down and crush some code" was the reference to Kick-Ass Cupcakes, which the author obviously does not realize is the actual name of a Boston cupcake bakery.

Victory Chainsaw! (DJP), Thursday, 28 June 2012 13:20 (six years ago) Permalink

it's like the darkside of the Ace of Cakes folks in their baltimore hideout

Fiendish Doctor Wu! (kingfish), Friday, 29 June 2012 05:40 (six years ago) Permalink

come to think of it, the rise of gendered portmanteaus is what makes me most violent of all

Fiendish Doctor Wu! (kingfish), Friday, 29 June 2012 05:41 (six years ago) Permalink

what, like "brodown" or "manscape"?

Nhex, Friday, 29 June 2012 05:45 (six years ago) Permalink

ARGH

Fiendish Doctor Wu! (kingfish), Friday, 29 June 2012 06:29 (six years ago) Permalink

dudecum

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Friday, 29 June 2012 06:42 (six years ago) Permalink

jock'cuse!

― Philip Nunez, Thursday, June 28, 2012 1:44 AM (4 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lmao

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Monday, 2 July 2012 04:23 (six years ago) Permalink

three months pass...

Wow. Great read.

Doctor Casino, Wednesday, 24 October 2012 03:40 (five years ago) Permalink

ugh, why do the ppl i share this hobby with suck so much?

Mordy, Wednesday, 24 October 2012 03:47 (five years ago) Permalink

excellent read.

Author ~ Coach ~ Goddess (s1ocki), Wednesday, 24 October 2012 04:36 (five years ago) Permalink

^^

www.toilet-guru.com (silby), Wednesday, 24 October 2012 05:27 (five years ago) Permalink

that was a v inoffensive read

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, 24 October 2012 05:28 (five years ago) Permalink

better ridiculously late then never

bnw, Friday, 2 November 2012 04:03 (five years ago) Permalink

two weeks pass...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sHp-iapqvo#!

Andrew Farrell, Friday, 16 November 2012 22:59 (five years ago) Permalink

not clicking

Fieri-brand sausages into my and your ready holes (silby), Saturday, 17 November 2012 02:42 (five years ago) Permalink

it's not bad, actually

well if it isn't old 11 cameras simon (gbx), Saturday, 17 November 2012 03:46 (five years ago) Permalink

not clicking

Suit yourself - it's log.

Andrew Farrell, Saturday, 17 November 2012 10:51 (five years ago) Permalink

hah that was funny actually, assumed from the screencap that it was the opposite of what it was

Fieri-brand sausages into my and your ready holes (silby), Saturday, 17 November 2012 16:51 (five years ago) Permalink

^same here. and he IS a Charlie Brooker clone, but a pretty good one!

Nhex, Saturday, 17 November 2012 17:48 (five years ago) Permalink

Lookee that, it's gone viral enough to make the Guardian:

http://m.guardiannews.com/technology/gamesblog/2012/nov/17/oxm-breakdown-review?cat=technology&type=article

the max in the high castle (kingfish), Monday, 19 November 2012 15:18 (five years ago) Permalink

two weeks pass...

good job square pr team

Nhex, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 23:53 (five years ago) Permalink

ex-TalkRadar folks talk about this kinda thing, mainly the #1reason

http://www.lasertimepodcast.com/2012/12/03/laser-time-1reason-fun/

"It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Drunk!" (kingfish), Wednesday, 5 December 2012 00:29 (five years ago) Permalink

I really hope someday speech-to-text tools are good enough to interpret these podcasts

Nhex, Wednesday, 5 December 2012 03:13 (five years ago) Permalink

I just hope people stop making fucking podcasts.

attempt to look intentionally nerdy, awkward or (thomp), Wednesday, 5 December 2012 03:37 (five years ago) Permalink

not to insist that a specious parallelism is the same thing as equality, but for what its worth acc. to pcgamer there was list of things you could say was wrong with dudes also

Female friends got to be called out on “awful make-up,” “annoying laugh,” “strange odour,” “muffin top,” or “small tits,” among others. Male targets, meanwhile, could be chided on their “bad hair,” “big ears,” “hairy back,” “big gut,” or “small penis.”

attempt to look intentionally nerdy, awkward or (thomp), Wednesday, 5 December 2012 03:41 (five years ago) Permalink

not included: "plays videogames"

(alternatively, “Respec’”) (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 5 December 2012 04:40 (five years ago) Permalink

what happened to the girls vs video game tropes project? It's hard to tell from the reddit men's movement.

bnw, Wednesday, 5 December 2012 21:34 (five years ago) Permalink

She stole all the money, and lol at every dipshit who donated to that crap

turds (Hungry4Ass), Wednesday, 5 December 2012 22:35 (five years ago) Permalink

that looks a LOT like someone I know

crüt, Wednesday, 5 December 2012 23:16 (five years ago) Permalink

that looks like $5 of gamestop credit right there.

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 5 December 2012 23:19 (five years ago) Permalink

I have that IKEA desk lamp

pun lovin criminal (polyphonic), Thursday, 6 December 2012 00:08 (five years ago) Permalink

one month passes...

http://i.imgur.com/ZkAq3.jpg

乒乓, Tuesday, 15 January 2013 23:08 (five years ago) Permalink

jfc

goole, Tuesday, 15 January 2013 23:10 (five years ago) Permalink

http://i.minus.com/ib0B4pIriu03PJ.gif

cozen, Tuesday, 15 January 2013 23:16 (five years ago) Permalink

good use of that gif

an old penis drawing is now "new and notable" (forksclovetofu), Tuesday, 15 January 2013 23:42 (five years ago) Permalink

tom chick on this. he's got blinders on. http://www.quartertothree.com/fp/2013/01/16/dead-island-or-bust-the-case-for-tasteless-horror-tchotchkes/

s.clover, Thursday, 17 January 2013 04:09 (five years ago) Permalink

yeah... sometimes that dude is just straight up wrong. it's a shame because the use of horror and unrestricted content in games is totally worth defending, but the actual bust - the thing we are talking about here - is just idiotic

Nhex, Thursday, 17 January 2013 04:29 (five years ago) Permalink

rmde at that guy.

His response to 1) basically boils down to "the objectification of women in horror appeals to the people who should be watching it, i.e. MEN, so therefore it's fine". Great reasoning!

emil.y, Thursday, 17 January 2013 04:32 (five years ago) Permalink

You can only claim it objectifies women if you also concede that Pirahna 3D objectifies women. You might not be wrong.

*steeples fingers*

attempt to look intentionally nerdy, awkward or (thomp), Thursday, 17 January 2013 07:42 (five years ago) Permalink

the first dead island was the worst game i played to completion in 2012

turds (Hungry4Ass), Thursday, 17 January 2013 08:28 (five years ago) Permalink

http://i.imgur.com/aOVFa.jpg

turds (Hungry4Ass), Thursday, 17 January 2013 08:29 (five years ago) Permalink

kind of lol but mostly sad

attempt to look intentionally nerdy, awkward or (thomp), Thursday, 17 January 2013 08:46 (five years ago) Permalink

But I find it disappointing that Deep Silver is caving on this issue for two important reasons. No, not those reasons. I’m going to be mostly serious.

After the jump, two important things. Not the ones you think I’m thinking of.

^^^what a knob

I had such a fontasy (stevie), Thursday, 17 January 2013 09:30 (five years ago) Permalink

But did you realize it was also a joke?

shutters fall, new understanding is achieved

I had such a fontasy (stevie), Thursday, 17 January 2013 09:31 (five years ago) Permalink

http://gameological.com/2013/01/it-belongs-in-a-museum/

This is probably the best reaction to that thing yet, which talks about it like it was a deliberate piss-take of the worst excesses of early 21st-C vidja game marketing

You could argue that the figure doesn’t deserve consideration as art, because it wasn’t created by an “artist” per se, and Deep Silver didn’t mean to send up the worst impulses of big-budget game studios. But that only makes it better. You’ve heard of outsider art? This is insider art, crafted by forces deep within the beast. The fact that it was meant to showcase the most appealing aspects of Dead Island is the cherry on top of the depravity sundae. It’s rare that we get to bear witness to an expression of awfulness this pure—it’s perfectly ugly. I hope to see it in a museum someday, as a relic of a bygone era.

"It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Drunk!" (kingfish), Friday, 18 January 2013 08:52 (five years ago) Permalink

that last paragraph you quote especially is tops

Nhex, Friday, 18 January 2013 14:10 (five years ago) Permalink

it BELONGS in a MUSEUM

zero dark (s1ocki), Friday, 18 January 2013 14:57 (five years ago) Permalink

haha

fiscal cliff huxtable (latebloomer), Friday, 18 January 2013 20:07 (five years ago) Permalink

It BELONGS on EBAY

Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Friday, 18 January 2013 20:33 (five years ago) Permalink

one month passes...

most of the way through this, seems pretty women's studies 101
weird that they're not talking about japan v US takes on this stuff tho

the 'dirty sprite' is implied (forksclovetofu), Saturday, 9 March 2013 20:16 (five years ago) Permalink

this fucken guy is hysterical
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfkS9YS_T0k

the 'dirty sprite' is implied (forksclovetofu), Saturday, 9 March 2013 20:28 (five years ago) Permalink

oh man i need to not look at youtube responses like ever

the 'dirty sprite' is implied (forksclovetofu), Saturday, 9 March 2013 20:32 (five years ago) Permalink

argh what a fucknut

the 'dirty sprite' is implied (forksclovetofu), Saturday, 9 March 2013 20:32 (five years ago) Permalink

"We, the audience, are not allowed to have an opinion, it seems"

Except by, you know, MAKING A RESPONSE VIDEO OF YOUR OPINION, POSTING IT ON YOUTUBE, THEN POSTING A LINK TO IT ON YOUR BLOG.

Half of these sound like rappers. (snoball), Saturday, 9 March 2013 20:33 (five years ago) Permalink

dude is very angry that he wasn't offered a chance to express his dissenting opinion, but has assembled a 9-minute video about the video which... does not express a dissenting opinion

I mean I'm sure he has a very cogent and rational counterargument to why this might be a slightly regressive trope, as must all the people going "lol rape" and "lol show tits" under his video, and am very sad that I didn't get to hear it, obv

susuwatari teenage riot (a passing spacecadet), Saturday, 9 March 2013 21:21 (five years ago) Permalink

MAKING A RESPONSE VIDEO OF YOUR OPINION, POSTING IT ON YOUTUBE, THEN POSTING A LINK TO IT ON YOUR BLOG.

You forgot "blogging about your opinion, making a response video reading out your blog post, posting it on youtube, then posting a link to it on your blog". Don't forget to put some purchase links for random you-related merchandise in the video description!

susuwatari teenage riot (a passing spacecadet), Saturday, 9 March 2013 21:23 (five years ago) Permalink

Yeah her video is pretty damn spot-on, and it's a testament to how big a problem sexism is in the culture that dudes are getting up in arms about something that has nothing to do w the content. That bit about them taking a female-centric game, scratching it, and demoting the lead character to a damsel in a new Starfox is pretty ugh.

Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Saturday, 9 March 2013 21:26 (five years ago) Permalink

that's the guy who did the /v/ga bit on her, right? that was a terrible fake awards show.

abanana, Saturday, 9 March 2013 21:29 (five years ago) Permalink

xp Yeah, that was definitely the most interesting bit of the video for me. I've never played any of the Starfox series and don't plan to start, but I'd love to play that original game.

Shigeru Miyamoto is a hero to most but he never meant shit to me so I'm kind of bummed out but she seems to have a reasonable case in calling him out in particular, too ;_;

susuwatari teenage riot (a passing spacecadet), Saturday, 9 March 2013 21:33 (five years ago) Permalink

This guy thinks his signature is worth $30 on top of the cost of the $19 for an unsigned copy of his book? Kind of the icing on the 'privileged white male just doesn't get it' cake.

Half of these sound like rappers. (snoball), Saturday, 9 March 2013 21:34 (five years ago) Permalink

Awesome

my god i only have 2 useless beyblade (silby), Sunday, 10 March 2013 17:28 (five years ago) Permalink

See, I watch that and can only think "why were the second and fourth screens switched?" and "since when can you win the level by coming up to the left of Kong?"

pplains, Sunday, 10 March 2013 17:38 (five years ago) Permalink

lol i was thinking the same thing. also, how much i hate Donkey Kong deep down

Nhex, Sunday, 10 March 2013 21:31 (five years ago) Permalink

two weeks pass...

http://www.themarysue.com/pax-tomb-raider-cosplay/

What happens when a game journo dude decided to play the "cosplay is consent" card with a group of Lara Croft cosplayers

Wizemann had been interviewed in the past and said everything seemed normal. That is, until the interviewer asked his first question, “How does it feel to be at a convention where none of the men could please you?”

Hockey Drunk (kingfish), Thursday, 28 March 2013 17:56 (five years ago) Permalink

meanwhile at GDC this week, "scantily clad female dancers" at developers association party
http://www.polygon.com/2013/3/28/4157266/igda-gdc-party-brenda-romero-resignation

( X '____' )/ (zappi), Thursday, 28 March 2013 23:21 (five years ago) Permalink

these guyz :-( http://yetizen.com/

s.clover, Friday, 29 March 2013 00:19 (five years ago) Permalink

good thing they're a strategic keystone with an innovation lab

my god i only have 2 useless beyblade (silby), Friday, 29 March 2013 00:45 (five years ago) Permalink

feels like it was only yesterday that "do you come with the car" "OH YOU" banter was pretty much the norm. when did that stop? when E3 was last open to the public?

Look, Brian, about the afro wig... (forksclovetofu), Friday, 29 March 2013 02:13 (five years ago) Permalink

i'm pretty sure it's still the norm at these international weapons dealer conferences except it's "do you come with that surface-to-air missile?" and "get out of my dreams and into my amphibious assault humvee"

Philip Nunez, Friday, 29 March 2013 02:25 (five years ago) Permalink

pretty much the most disheartening week ever for me. this whole thing is just disgusting. meagan is a friend and former colleague and frankly some of the stuff that happened to her was things that happened when i worked with her that i was unaware of. this shit is terrible and i'm not sure it will ever change. a hobby filled with mean, angry little boys. the comments she's been dealing with on her blog and various comments sections and facebook this week have just been unreal, i can't even fathom people anymore.

ums (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 29 March 2013 21:37 (five years ago) Permalink

another blog from these week, more, complicated i guess, and even more depressing, can't even believe some of these stories

http://trixie360.wordpress.com/2013/03/28/sexism-in-games-a-mea-culpa/

ums (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 29 March 2013 21:41 (five years ago) Permalink

but we've all been passively complicit in it, every fucking person in the industry myself included & i don't know where to even begin.

ums (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 29 March 2013 21:42 (five years ago) Permalink

do u know who the journalist is?

Mordy, Friday, 29 March 2013 21:45 (five years ago) Permalink

no. i can't really get into specifics but we were involved in the reporting on an incident relayed in her original blog post regarding someone that worked for a publisher.

http://meagan-marie.tumblr.com/post/46396481491/what-would-you-do-if-you-werent-afraid#_=_

ums (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 29 March 2013 21:48 (five years ago) Permalink

i did not attend pax

ums (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 29 March 2013 21:49 (five years ago) Permalink

to my knowledge said person is not employed at that publisher any longer

ums (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 29 March 2013 21:50 (five years ago) Permalink

fwiw, i sub'd to GI for many years bc it was not puerile, sexist, maxim in video game skins like all the other mags. a force for good imho.

Mordy, Friday, 29 March 2013 21:50 (five years ago) Permalink

i know you avoid posting on ILG m@tt since it runs a lil too close to your day job but i really appreciate you stopping by here to take a stand on this issue form an industry perspective.

Look, Brian, about the afro wig... (forksclovetofu), Friday, 29 March 2013 23:20 (five years ago) Permalink

that trixie360 blog post was good, wish I'd set myself on fire instead of reading the comments though

susuwatari teenage riot (a passing spacecadet), Saturday, 30 March 2013 01:50 (five years ago) Permalink

I mean I know this is basically the one constant truth of the internet but there I went

susuwatari teenage riot (a passing spacecadet), Saturday, 30 March 2013 01:51 (five years ago) Permalink

i feel like the funny ("funny") thing is that the motives of a lot of (not necessarily "most" but maybe?) people in industries that tend to traffic in casual sexism and even racism aren't taking part in advancing it because they themselves find it "admirable" but because they're cynical and feel like this is just giving the people what they want, and tbh their own careers matter more than mildly suggesting that such elements be toned down. i speak from another perspective in another industry which certainly has people working through the moral quandaries of sexism and the odd bit of winking racism, and unfortunately the ones who runs things immediately-to-far above my standing are the ones who more willingly embrace it.

anyway somewhat off topic.

christmas candy bar (al leong), Saturday, 30 March 2013 02:15 (five years ago) Permalink

i'll probably start an ilm thread but fwiw, i am producing this talk regarding (somewhat tangentially, we'll see) sexism in the performing arts programming industry:
http://www.housingworks.org/events/detail/noteworthy-a-conversation-with-women-at-the-forefront-of-the-nyc-arts-progr/

Look, Brian, about the afro wig... (forksclovetofu), Saturday, 30 March 2013 02:20 (five years ago) Permalink

M@tt, are you going to Pax Prime this year?

Hockey Drunk (kingfish), Saturday, 30 March 2013 02:44 (five years ago) Permalink

Nah with a 2yr old I avoid travel if I can, e3 & gamescom for me this year, though I welcome our new once monthly pax convention overlords

ums (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 1 April 2013 13:15 (five years ago) Permalink

But yeah like forks said I don't go to ilg because I'm way too glib & chatty on ilx & I think the only way to be a game journo anymore is to have complete & total paranoia about the internet, but yeah this the treatment of a friend in regards to this stuff was just so gross I had to vent

Bioshock is pretty great tho

ums (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 1 April 2013 13:18 (five years ago) Permalink

is that a new game or something?

Mordy, Monday, 1 April 2013 14:00 (five years ago) Permalink

What's Gamescom like?

Hockey Drunk (kingfish), Monday, 1 April 2013 15:53 (five years ago) Permalink

www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6gLmcS3-NI

This video showed up in my related videos section. it sucks shit.

polyphonic, Monday, 1 April 2013 18:05 (five years ago) Permalink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6gLmcS3-NI

polyphonic, Monday, 1 April 2013 18:05 (five years ago) Permalink

Sarkeesian is such an easy target for internet trolls. I honestly wish she were a little more challenging and interesting but she's still among the better video game essayists if only due to the low bar.

I offer about as much diversity as a saltine cracker. (forksclovetofu), Monday, 1 April 2013 18:59 (five years ago) Permalink

i am somewhat amazed someone made a ten minute video refuting zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Nhex, Monday, 1 April 2013 23:49 (five years ago) Permalink

is casual racism a big issue in games? seems like sexism is a much more pervasive problem. not every game is Mike Tyson's Punch-Out.

Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 15:55 (five years ago) Permalink

yes

Nhex, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 15:56 (five years ago) Permalink

I've never gotten the clammy chill of racism from punch out, at least not to the extent I get from seeing actual boxing.

Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 16:09 (five years ago) Permalink

Because I've not played the game, I don't know (and the article doesn't say) whether there are other black characters in the game, which would seem to make a difference - if she's one of many, and the many don't sound like that, then saying "Surely there won't be anyone that sounds like this in 14 years!" is not in itself a good look.

Andrew Farrell, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 16:14 (five years ago) Permalink

Well the title of this thread is that it's more accepted in videogames than in other media. I'm not really seeing that. Feel like for every Deus Ex that gets called out people call out a Transformers.

Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 16:21 (five years ago) Permalink

Transformers is practically one long videogame cutscene

Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 16:24 (five years ago) Permalink

a good portion of it is the multiplayer/internet culture, but yeah it definitely feels like racism is more normalized in gaming

Nhex, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 16:34 (five years ago) Permalink

there's been good writing at kotaku on this issue

乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 16:38 (five years ago) Permalink

i disagree with the idea that video games need to follow the models of other media to fix racism/sexism since the other media is largely the source.

Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:15 (five years ago) Permalink

uh

the pheromones of hot clothing (DJP), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:18 (five years ago) Permalink

not parsing u philip

乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:18 (five years ago) Permalink

the caricatures come from movies/tv/comic books -- which aren't doing a better job than video games at least on the commercial end.

Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:21 (five years ago) Permalink

lol that's a steaming pile

乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:24 (five years ago) Permalink

well, let me walk that back, i still dont understand what exactly youre saying

乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:25 (five years ago) Permalink

...

1) The caricatures come from more than just movies/TV/comic books; they come from music, they come from the stage, they come from historical scientific studies, they come from conventional wisdom, they come from old wives' tales, they come from EVERYWHERE

2) Tyler Perry has built a gigantic media empire off of a series of movies that encompasses a broad spectrum of the African-American experience. There was an entire renaissance of black filmmakers spearheaded by Melvin Van Peebles and continuing on through Spike Lee, the Hudlins, and John Singleton that explored different facets of black experience, to the point where modern movies have a spectrum of black characters to offer consumers, including some caricatures.

2) Ditto with television, where entire networks have dedicated themselves to showing multifaceted black characters (TV One, sometimes BET, OWN, Tyler Perry's terrible TBS show)

3) Comic books have been way out in front of this for a long, long time, stretching back to the introduction of characters like Black Lightning, Black Panther, Luke Cage, Storm and the entire Milestone universe.

Basically you have no idea what you are talking about.

the pheromones of hot clothing (DJP), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:28 (five years ago) Permalink

well specifically i'm saying tyler perry making video games would be counterproductive (having a milestone comics of videogames i'm less emphatically against, but there's other reasons why i wouldn't be optimistic about it), but i'm also generally against video games looking outward for a corrective in a place that doesn't look much better by comparison and is also the source of a lot of the problems.

Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:32 (five years ago) Permalink

so really what you're saying is "I can't read" because no one is actually advocating that Tyler Perry start making videogames

the pheromones of hot clothing (DJP), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:34 (five years ago) Permalink

philip what it seemed to me that you wre saying is that strategie sthat have been used to pursue diversity/humanizing people of color in other medium (i.e. just introducing enough characters of colors to be able to express a diversity of common, humanistic sentiments) is not valid for video games because the video game industry makes more money nowadays than movies/tv/comics? i really don't understand

乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:35 (five years ago) Permalink

speak for yourself bruh, i'd play a LucasArts-style Why Did I Get Married? xp

ta-nehisi goatse (fadanuf4erybody), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:37 (five years ago) Permalink

I'd argue that this is functionally equivalent to arguing that Tyler Perry literally make video games. In the very least, Tyler Perry literally making videogames would have answered this call:
"I hope it'll be sooner rather than later, but as long as the industry maintains its focus on blockbusters over everything, it'll be a long time coming. Which means that what video games needs is not just Blazing Saddles, but Tyler Perry."

Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:39 (five years ago) Permalink

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literal_and_figurative_language

乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:40 (five years ago) Permalink

as I said

the pheromones of hot clothing (DJP), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:41 (five years ago) Permalink

If you look at "characters like Black Lightning, Black Panther, Luke Cage, Storm and the entire Milestone universe," they aren't marquee characters today, and it's telling when there's such a pent-up need for a Morales Spider-Man that comics have a long way to go in catching up to its audience.

Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:41 (five years ago) Permalink

what's your alternative, philip?

乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:42 (five years ago) Permalink

I'm saying that his figurative use has no functional difference in the same way that a figurative Tyler Perry would be just as damaging as a literal Tyler Perry.

re: alternative -- strip away narratives borrowed from other media/genres and concentrate on games as games, which just by that alone will be less racist/sexist.

Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:44 (five years ago) Permalink

lol so your answer is that the video games industry should just stick to remaking tetris

乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:45 (five years ago) Permalink

tetris is probably racist against slavs

my god i only have 2 useless beyblade (silby), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:46 (five years ago) Permalink

what does concentrating on 'games as games' mean. are you saying video games should be 'colorblind.'

乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:47 (five years ago) Permalink

think he wants to shut down the whole avenue of narrative and hyperreal game design just so there won't be any humanoids to put racisms on

my god i only have 2 useless beyblade (silby), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:48 (five years ago) Permalink

won't stop people who play in arcade fighter tournaments from shouting "rape" and "nigger" though!

my god i only have 2 useless beyblade (silby), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:49 (five years ago) Permalink

um

乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:50 (five years ago) Permalink

i'm saying games ought to refrain from drawing in narratives obv. modeled after other media around it. If it does this, it would at least avoid the racist/sexist and all other baggage as a minimum.

Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:51 (five years ago) Permalink

xp sorry dayo I was trying to jocularly make a point about the audience being as much of a source of the problem itt as the creators

my god i only have 2 useless beyblade (silby), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:51 (five years ago) Permalink

i mean games ought to do this anyway as a means of growth for the medium as a whole. the whole not bringing in 100 years of problematic culture in is a bonus.

Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:52 (five years ago) Permalink

this reminds me, I need to get onto marketing my new competitive fighting game Niggerrape

at least then the catcalls will be game-appropriate

I am going to now go off and do some massive penance for that joke

the pheromones of hot clothing (DJP), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:52 (five years ago) Permalink

hehe "massive penance"

my god i only have 2 useless beyblade (silby), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:53 (five years ago) Permalink

so philip, getting rid of RPGs would be a good first step right?

乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:55 (five years ago) Permalink

narrative is not something that's self-contained in literature/film/comics/tv, narrative is human experience related. you're being willfully naive here philip

乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:56 (five years ago) Permalink

unless your answer to reducing sexism/racism in video games is to make 100 more angry birds

乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:57 (five years ago) Permalink

RPGs are pretty broad but yeah Gygaxian RPGs don't really make sense on a video game platform.
I'd argue that in its purest form, video game narratives are incidental, rather than tacked on.
I'm in favor of games ditching its macho posturing audience as well (which i think is going to happen anyway with casual gaming)

and yes angry birds is a step in the right direction. next step will be slightly peeved birds, then indifferent birds.

Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:58 (five years ago) Permalink

ok now your arguments have now literally detached you from earth you are floating into space goodbye it was nice to know you

乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:59 (five years ago) Permalink

the video games industry should just stick to remaking tetris

this is an acceptable solution imo

Reggie (Lamp), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:00 (five years ago) Permalink

narrative and worldbuilding are incidental in video games. that's why halo slash fiction literally doesn't exist. nobody on this planet except for maybe 3 people total have ever cosplayed. people only care about how fast their ping times are and whether or not they can pull off a 45-hit combo in marvel v. capcom 2.

乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:02 (five years ago) Permalink

i've seen sexist tetris though -- though i'd argue that's again borrowing from pinball cheesecake.

Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:03 (five years ago) Permalink

I would be down w more abstract and non-figurative games.

Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:08 (five years ago) Permalink

https://itunes.apple.com/us/genre/ios-games/id6014?mt=8

乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:09 (five years ago) Permalink

Don't have an iphone. Let's see EA spend tens of millions of dollars on an abstract game and I'll be there.

Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:10 (five years ago) Permalink

The top 10 retail video games in the United States in 2012:

1. Call of Duty: Black Ops II (360, PS3, PC, Wii U)
2. Madden NFL 13 (360, PS3, Wii, PSV, Wii U)
3. Halo 4 (360)
4. Assassin's Creed III (360, PS3, PC, Wii U)
5. Just Dance 4 (Wii, 360, Wii U, PS3)
6. NBA 2K13 (360, PS3, Wii, PSP, Wii U, PC)
7. Borderlands 2 (360, PS3, PC)
8. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 (360, PS3, Wii, PC)
9. Lego Batman 2: DC Super Heroes (Wii, 360, NDS, PS3, 3DS, PSV, PC
10. FIFA Soccer 13 (360, PS3, Wii, PSV, 3DS, Wii U, PSP)
(Source: The NPD Group)

clearly abstract/non-figurative games do great

乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:11 (five years ago) Permalink

Clearly alot of people paid to see Transformers.

Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:14 (five years ago) Permalink

what is this transformers argument

乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:15 (five years ago) Permalink

Dollars earned != good content

Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:29 (five years ago) Permalink

lol so your answer to addressing issues of sexism/racism in the video game industry today is to plug your ears and play tetris... cool

乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:31 (five years ago) Permalink

I'm glad you wrote it out for me.

Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:33 (five years ago) Permalink

Dollars earned = good business, which is the argument being floated to move against changing the narratives to have broader/more realistic minority characters

you guys are engaging in the most shameless "have your cake and eat it too" argument

also Closure is awesome re: abstract games; it's not even clear that the protagonist has a gender

the pheromones of hot clothing (DJP), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:33 (five years ago) Permalink

Even if video games were purely a reflection of other aspects of culture, having a disproportionate number of them reflecting the most regressive parts of culture probably isn't desirable.

☠ ☃ ☠ (mh), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:34 (five years ago) Permalink

That list is why there aren't more games with female protagonists or protagonists of color.

Also it is a list entirely populated by sequels.

polyphonic, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:34 (five years ago) Permalink

I mean, unless you only watch movies with guns, tits, and gangsters

oh god I've described half the audience for the top ten games listed

☠ ☃ ☠ (mh), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:35 (five years ago) Permalink

pretty sure there are people of color in Just Dance 4 #naturalrhythm

also lol at looking at a list that contains basketball, football and soccer games and having the first reaction be "why all the white people?"

the pheromones of hot clothing (DJP), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:37 (five years ago) Permalink

lol

乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:38 (five years ago) Permalink

that's the first reaction because "acting ethnic" in a video game involves funny accents or stereotyped characters and basketball players in games don't talk, iirc

☠ ☃ ☠ (mh), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:41 (five years ago) Permalink

like, god forbid there be characters who are boring, normal people who are not white

☠ ☃ ☠ (mh), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:42 (five years ago) Permalink

my point in posting that list was that fully half of that list is dominated by narrative-driven gamers that heavily depend on worldbuilding to achieve their success, to spell it out

乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:43 (five years ago) Permalink

narrative worldbuilding and killing stuff

☠ ☃ ☠ (mh), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:43 (five years ago) Permalink

also lol at looking at a list that contains basketball, football and soccer games and having the first reaction be "why all the white people?"

Haha somehow I looked past all the non-narrative games on the list since they basically do not involve characterization, but this is a fair point.

polyphonic, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:50 (five years ago) Permalink

putting aside the "macho posturing" of that list, is Assassin's Creed III the only one in that top 10 to have a protagonist of color?

ta-nehisi goatse (fadanuf4erybody), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:56 (five years ago) Permalink

xp My NBA2K13 MyCareer player "Mr. Clutch" would have to disagree with you, then slam his teammates at a press conference

Nhex, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:57 (five years ago) Permalink

Why is the top 10 list of games entering this conversation? Most of those don't really prove anyone's points

which btw are super clear

everyone's points, i mean

I've Seen rRootage (Will M.), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 19:02 (five years ago) Permalink

narrative is not something that's self-contained in literature/film/comics/tv, narrative is human experience related. you're being willfully naive here philip

Dollars earned = good business, which is the argument being floated to move against changing the narratives to have broader/more realistic minority characters

you guys are engaging in the most shameless "have your cake and eat it too" argument

both otm

Nhex, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 19:07 (five years ago) Permalink

narrative is certainly self-contained in movies w/r/t video games when it is being advanced by cut-scenes, for example. Most games you can pretty much pick apart in this way leaving very little narrative left to call its own.

Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 19:17 (five years ago) Permalink

i make all my characters black gay women in the character creator so i have multiple tiers of roleplaying going on do u c

I offer about as much diversity as a saltine cracker. (forksclovetofu), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 21:01 (five years ago) Permalink

um

乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 21:03 (five years ago) Permalink

on an unrelated note, I'm going to be thinking through my ideas a few times before typing them into ilx for a while

I, rrational (mh), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 21:08 (five years ago) Permalink

narrative is certainly self-contained in movies w/r/t video games when it is being advanced by cut-scenes, for example. Most games you can pretty much pick apart in this way leaving very little narrative left to call its own.

― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, April 2, 2013 3:17 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

this is both true and completely immaterial to this discussion

zero dark (s1ocki), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 21:12 (five years ago) Permalink

it's material in that within these often ham-fisted attempts at appropriating cinematic narratives into video games that sexism/racism come along for the ride, though apparently that arkham game decided to one-up its source material? lego batman seemed alright though.

Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 21:20 (five years ago) Permalink

appropriating cinematic narratives into video games

Games with linear plots or parallel linear missions that later reconcile to an endgame, which possibly has variations, are not necessarily comparable to cinema to a greater degree than they are to anything else! I mean, we aren't saying that books are sexist, so you can't blame video games based on books for being sexist. The idea that any particular medium can't determine it's own path because it's just a shadow of something else is stupid.

I, rrational (mh), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 21:25 (five years ago) Permalink

Would you agree that it's harder to forge your own path and escape a set of cultural and commercial expectations when it is under the shadow of that other thing, though?

Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 21:27 (five years ago) Permalink

no, because you are still within the culture that has all of the baggage

the pheromones of hot clothing (DJP), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 21:28 (five years ago) Permalink

Video games aren't under the shadow of anything, any more than movies are in the shadow of the written word

I, rrational (mh), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 21:28 (five years ago) Permalink

Man I am so sad that Ms. Pac-Man was an inferior game and was not at all successful

I, rrational (mh), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 21:30 (five years ago) Permalink

I think I just backslid on my idea to prethink my comments, but I will not back down on my support of Ms. Pac-Man.

I, rrational (mh), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 21:31 (five years ago) Permalink

Ms Pac-Man is clearly the best of the Pac-Man games

the pheromones of hot clothing (DJP), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 21:32 (five years ago) Permalink

Yes!

I, rrational (mh), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 21:34 (five years ago) Permalink

"Pacman displays all the patho-obsessive characteristics that are the special achievement of the first generation peasant. Pacman does not live, he survives. Pacman does not know the freedom and enjoyment of the drift; he is locked in a Malthusian trap without cheat codes, doomed to struggle ad infinitum to overcome his hunger in the knowledge that the next meal will be even harder to acquire. To eat more is to be chased with added vengeance.

For the ghosts work does not exist, their quest to find Pacman and eat him is purely recreational. Failure is without consequence, the drift is theirs and their collective wandering strategies are an inspiration to every algorithmic psychogeographer. Their scatter-chase-repeat routine is a wonder in itself but their swagger in blue mode, when suddenly they are prey and may be eaten by their dinner, is the unchallenged masterpiece in the arsenal of experimental walking techniques. Again the ghosts do not encounter real harm when devoured, rebirth comes as a guarantee. The ghost in blue mode is in trickster mode, they are urging Pacman to eat the freaky corner fruits out of self-interest but also out of benevolence.

Blinky, Pinky, Inky and Clyde are not attacking Pacman, evil is not a useful concept in their carefree existence. They are the Magister Ludi's of crazy cookie land, enticing the pupil to work harder and to move further, to new level-environments. It is not necessary to eat, it is necessary to travel."

ogmor, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 21:39 (five years ago) Permalink

I don't buy that games would necessarily be coarsened by the outside culture to the same extent without the prevailing influence of movies/tv/comics etc...

These are the top selling board games, for example:
http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Toys-Games-Board/zgbs/toys-and-games/166225011

So board games aren't immune to the kind of licensing/genre nonsense that dominate video games but just looking at it, it looks like they do a much better job at making board games qua board games at least on the top-seller level. (the kotaku list for best board games looked very different!)

confession: my favorite board game was the one based on pacman where you'd collect marbles in this pacman approximation that the designers solved the axis-orientation problem by having him eat through an orifice in its butt.

Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 21:46 (five years ago) Permalink

http://cardsagainsthumanity.com/

乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 21:59 (five years ago) Permalink

To be fair, Cards Against Humanity's offensiveness is anything but casual.

I, rrational (mh), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 22:02 (five years ago) Permalink

Would you agree that it's harder to forge your own path and escape a set of cultural and commercial expectations when it is under the shadow of that other thing, though?

― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, April 2, 2013 5:27 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

no, because you are still within the culture that has all of the baggage

― the pheromones of hot clothing (DJP), Tuesday, April 2, 2013 5:28 PM (59 minutes ago) Bookmark

just gonna quote this response again, because it is otm

乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 22:28 (five years ago) Permalink

i'm with you guys on the inception matroska-ing of cultural shackles but to say they're equivalent or have the same influence at each layer...

Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 22:39 (five years ago) Permalink

Not really wanting to jump into this debate, but I thought this was pretty OTM:

it's material in that within these often ham-fisted attempts at appropriating cinematic narratives into video games that sexism/racism come along for the ride

schwantz, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 22:41 (five years ago) Permalink

Counter-example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_or_Alive_(series)

schwantz, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 22:42 (five years ago) Permalink

FWIW, I basically am in line with DJP's take here but sort of buy into Philip's initial statement, which I read not as ''games shouldn't borrow from cinema or comics'' as ''games shouldn't borrow from trash cinema and trash comics,'' which I think they kind of do, a lot. Superhero books have come a long way and there are a lot of talented creators consciously trying to fight the tide, but the tide is still there. I've read more stuff about gender biases (the way star artists are permitted/encouraged to draw women's bodies, the women in refrigerators issue, tokenism of female membership on superteams, the sheer numbers of men vs women working in the industry etc.) but I doubt the industry/community would do well on race either, see for example the shocking fan resistance to the idea of a non-white Spiderman in either comics or movies.

Again, there's been tons of progress! The internet brings out the worst in fandom but it also means there's been a visible push-back against all of this stuff. I would like to believe that today's male white geek is a little more self-aware than his equivalent twenty years ago, and that non-white non-male geeks find more material that doesn't alienate them. But there's still so much in geek-genre comics that should wither and die there rather than remain a continuing source of video game material. I'm sure that's true of other media as well but I do think comics are relatively speaking, behind the curve, if not AS behind as games.

(Outside superheroes it's another rodeo entirely. Would love to see a Dykes To Watch Out For game!)

Doctor Casino, Wednesday, 3 April 2013 12:54 (five years ago) Permalink

(Catching up on those Kotaku links presently - good stuff, thanks.)

Doctor Casino, Wednesday, 3 April 2013 12:58 (five years ago) Permalink

I think drawing off of trash cinema or comics is fine! It's just not the only thing that should get made.

I, rrational (mh), Wednesday, 3 April 2013 17:50 (five years ago) Permalink

I like trash, too! but better a game with original pooping mechanics than a boring adaptation of "pink flamingos"

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 3 April 2013 18:02 (five years ago) Permalink

answer to casual racism/sexism in gamse: develop original pooping mechanic

乒乓, Wednesday, 3 April 2013 18:04 (five years ago) Permalink

so I guess they were on the right track here: oh no! SPANKING VIDEO GAME! oh no!

just didn't go far enough

the pheromones of hot clothing (DJP), Wednesday, 3 April 2013 18:09 (five years ago) Permalink

pii-u!

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 3 April 2013 18:11 (five years ago) Permalink

Holding out for the licensed Halle Berry ice-cream simulator, myself.

Doctor Casino, Wednesday, 3 April 2013 18:32 (five years ago) Permalink

dying

the pheromones of hot clothing (DJP), Wednesday, 3 April 2013 18:41 (five years ago) Permalink

http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=10567

s.clover, Thursday, 4 April 2013 01:18 (five years ago) Permalink

no info available on the validity of the survey, whether it represents readers of the magazine or the industry at large, sampling methods etc. It's likely there's some kind of gender gap in salaries but this doesn't tell us anything likely to be useful or accurate.

my god i only have 2 useless beyblade (silby), Thursday, 4 April 2013 02:54 (five years ago) Permalink

you know i think i have needed a new screen name for a while, kinda tired of asking ppl to deindex

bbiab thread

I've Seen rRootage (Will M.), Thursday, 4 April 2013 03:20 (five years ago) Permalink

i know that it's anecdotal but i have seen sort-of what would explain those numbers maybe. aside from the (very few) women i've known in places i've worked never ever ever ever ask for as much money as they're worth (there was this one place where my team of 6 had 2 women, and they were probably hour-for-hour the most valuable people on the team, myself included, and both were the lowest paid, bc the dudes came in puffed up w self-confidence). but also the wage gap is probably caused by the fact that females don't survive, because no matter how much the workplaces try to be inviting and equal, at the end of the day there are a bunch of dudes who work in games. And most of them are ok. But a few of them are creepy. And some of them are downright scary.

i am in a position of very very limited power (imagine the bottom of the food chain -- now imagine the person who writes plans for the bottom of the food chain -- there I am!) at a company that has it as part of their mandate to be inclusive and fair and inviting to everyone. And for the most part they're amazing about it. Far better than some places that I think I've complained about on previous threads (one place in particular where someone I know had his hours cut for COMPLAINING ABOUT SEEING HARASSMENT AT THE WORKPLACE) (and no it wasn't a white knight type thing, he was actually really really uncomfortable). But there's still sketchy shit. Casual homophobic, sexist shit gets said on the floor. I try to call people on it -- in fact, I've gotten kind of scary about it before -- but i'm getting fatigued. and i'm the only one calling people on it (in fact on a team of 11, i'd say 1 (me) actively discourages that kind of talking, 2 others dislike it but don't speak up, 1 more is maybe coming around on being a human being, and the other 7 just don't think there's anything wrong w/ the way we/they/everyone talks at the workplace).

this is kinda off topic bc this thread is about the content of games i guess, but since we're kinda talking abt the workplace i figured it was time to fucking complain

Video Games, Thursday, 4 April 2013 12:27 (five years ago) Permalink

great that this display name was available also

Video Games, Thursday, 4 April 2013 12:27 (five years ago) Permalink

I find that all quite germane! First of all, that climate matters and is important to the lives of people working in, near, or approaching the industry. Second, it'd be hard to argue that this wouldn't in some way impact game content, probably by quite a lot. What seems like a good idea or a well-rounded character or a funny joke in such a narrow environment with so mnay voices squeezed out, may prove to be...not so much when the game hits the streets. Or rather, it resonates with the marketplace which has itself squeezed out a lot of those same groups of people...self-fulfilling cycle.

Doctor Casino, Thursday, 4 April 2013 13:36 (five years ago) Permalink

Yeah you don't need to play more than about 5 minutes of something like borderlands 2 to realise that either there were no women at all on that team, or the women there had zero power.

JimD, Thursday, 4 April 2013 15:05 (five years ago) Permalink

(I'm only picking on borderlands because it's the latest in a very long line of games I've felt embarrassed to play in front of my girlfriend).

JimD, Thursday, 4 April 2013 15:06 (five years ago) Permalink

I remember seeing the end credits of Saints Row 3, where they have a crew photo slideshow, and being genuinely surprised that there were any women involved in making the game. There were maybe 3 out of 100? TBF that game is quite totally shameless about everything, not just its rampant sexism

Nhex, Thursday, 4 April 2013 15:10 (five years ago) Permalink

Aubrey Norris ‏@Chupacaubrey 28 Mar

Do you love zombies?? Do you hate nudity??? Enter the @threadless design contest for @deadislandgame & win prizes! http://www.threadless.com/deadisland/
Promoted by Aubrey Norris

Chewing through someone's skull is okay as long as they are wearing clothes.

Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Thursday, 4 April 2013 16:14 (five years ago) Permalink

what a vile culture of spoiled stupid little boys

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYMOXSrpqCE&feature=youtu.be

ums (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 4 April 2013 20:17 (five years ago) Permalink

what the fuck? Kill all involved.

EZ Snappin, Thursday, 4 April 2013 20:24 (five years ago) Permalink

what in the hell. how does that have a budget? how does that get made? who's sitting around writing that crap and narrating it and doing the titles and....christ

Doctor Casino, Thursday, 4 April 2013 20:49 (five years ago) Permalink

i'm afraid to ask, but what was that? the video went private

Nhex, Thursday, 4 April 2013 21:28 (five years ago) Permalink

a Machinima.com "show" called Spanks & Shreds or something like that where model were dressed up as "rock chicks" and then spanked as they played Rock Band

ums (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 5 April 2013 18:53 (five years ago) Permalink

Yeah, the preview image is still up, vid is down. I wonder how long before a copy pops up

Hockey Drunk (kingfish), Saturday, 6 April 2013 20:32 (five years ago) Permalink

youtube keeps "recommending for me" horrible anti-Sarkeesian videos with annoying names like "Feminism vs FACTS" and it's bumming me out to see them in my sidebar (also bummed out by whatever part of youtube's algorithm thinks I actually like these things) (Google does think I'm a guy apparently but I hope it's not showing these to everyone male because that would be even more depressing than being singled out for them)

so yeah, I probably shouldn't have clicked on that Spanks vid, it'll be another tick in the giant database of how much I love to watch creepy woman-hating gaming-related videos

susuwatari teenage riot (a passing spacecadet), Saturday, 6 April 2013 21:00 (five years ago) Permalink

good article, I think? maybe a bit self-congratulatory in places but I guess the urge to say that is just the same as all those asshats shouting "white knight" so eh

btw recent internet shitstorms have shown me that my tomboyish childhood and my subsequent life as a computer geek are not the result of heroically rejecting male privilege so much as buying fully into male privilege with me as honorary male (itself a privilege of having comfortably-off scientist parents), rejecting womanly things as degrading

was gonna say more but it's tl;dr and off-topic since I'm not a games programmer, just a dumb database monkey who first learnt a smattering of bad programming because I liked games, and now two decades later I'm still on the bottom rung of a career I was never any good at but I never noticed because boys didn't talk to me (I can't be bad at programming - nobody else I know even does this stuff!)

(There's another woman programmer in my office. Are we teaming up to further the cause of women in technology? Hell no. We are competing for who can be more manlike, who can wring more pats on the head from the real men who do the "real work" and get the real recognition; both just trying to pretend we aren't women, that gender rules don't have to apply to us, but not making the same exception for the other. We're not helping anyone and I'm tired. Sorry for off-topic.)

susuwatari teenage riot (a passing spacecadet), Saturday, 6 April 2013 22:24 (five years ago) Permalink

do you want to make a game? this looked cool (though it is for flash)
flixel.org

Philip Nunez, Saturday, 6 April 2013 22:37 (five years ago) Permalink

that does look cool! tbh the ideas are missing as much as the programming talent and/or patience, but I still like to think one day the stars might align enough to knock out some crappy puzzle game, at least...

susuwatari teenage riot (a passing spacecadet), Saturday, 6 April 2013 22:44 (five years ago) Permalink

i read that article thinking that these were the tiniest of baby steps to explaining privilege, but it sadly is pretty warranted given the audience. it's still pretty sad how many comments (even on RPS' forum, since he turned off the comments for that post) are still hopelessly blind, feminism is evil, etc. eukaryotes, indeed

Nhex, Sunday, 7 April 2013 01:04 (five years ago) Permalink

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/images/13/apr/misog9.jpg

Kind of odd to start off an article like that with this image^. But yay let's fight sexism.

Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Monday, 8 April 2013 16:35 (five years ago) Permalink

what's the gender makeup of RPS like?

Philip Nunez, Monday, 8 April 2013 16:39 (five years ago) Permalink

the readership or the writer/editors?

attempt to look intentionally nerdy, awkward or (thomp), Monday, 8 April 2013 17:25 (five years ago) Permalink

founded by four dudes, one of the dudes was replaced and then he was replaced. occasional features by women (notably, recently, the interview with the tomb raider writer), also i think the indie games column is written by a trans* woman

attempt to look intentionally nerdy, awkward or (thomp), Monday, 8 April 2013 17:31 (five years ago) Permalink

oh if it's only four people i'm not sure there's a lot they could do staff-wise.

Philip Nunez, Monday, 8 April 2013 17:37 (five years ago) Permalink

RPS seems aimed at an older audience though, my disappointment was that the responses were no better than you'd see on Kotaku, Reddit etc. crapping on John Walker for laboring the obvious. But not so much because it was obvious, but because they are in reality, unradical sewer mutants. Sad lol at "you're silencing the debate!"-type responses to him closing off the article comments, even with him addressing that very issue

I forget the name of the game with that ridiculous Amazon, but I think it comes out pretty soon so I guess it's somewhat relevant

Nhex, Monday, 8 April 2013 18:08 (five years ago) Permalink

site's audience != site's commenters tbf

attempt to look intentionally nerdy, awkward or (thomp), Monday, 8 April 2013 18:53 (five years ago) Permalink

They reckon about 1-2% comment. And as always it's not even a majority of the commenters that are terrible, just that the bad ones are like dragging a comb through your brain every time you read their megaparagraphs of MRA nonsense.

Andrew Farrell, Monday, 8 April 2013 19:28 (five years ago) Permalink

http://www.abc.net.au/arts/stories/s3733057.htm

乒乓, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:01 (five years ago) Permalink

Nice article. A harsh assessment - anyone who's played through B:I want to chime in?

Nhex, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:09 (five years ago) Permalink

Errant Signal also has a good new video about this. It does seem pretty weak, though I don't really recall B:I being promoted as an intelligent piece of art any more than a cool steampunk game.

Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:10 (five years ago) Permalink

They've definitely talked it up as such, at least to the gaming press. The article does some justice to their attempt. However, the ubiquitous TV ads definitely go in the direction of steampunky manshoot.

Nhex, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:25 (five years ago) Permalink

I haven't gotten far in the game but far enough to see the "throw the ball" section he mentions in that article as well as the "history exhibit" section... a few people i have spoken to are all losing their minds over this game for being clever and arty of course (these are the people who thought the same thing of the first game though which is just o_O to me).

thing is i am not sure i would put these comments in the "casual racism" thread because it doesn't feel racist so much as it just feels profoundly fucking stupid (and maybe kind of irresponsible in its stupidity) -- imo mr. golding hits the nail on the head.

I've Seen rRootage (Will M.), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 21:22 (five years ago) Permalink

ehhh it's not great but i would rather have a video game that acknowledged ugly parts of american history, even in a glib facile way, than not. baby steps yall.

adam, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 21:35 (five years ago) Permalink

i wish yoshi's island acknowledged the ugly parts of american history

zero dark (s1ocki), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 21:40 (five years ago) Permalink

definitely some robber-baron critique going on with wario

Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 21:43 (five years ago) Permalink

wario is a hurtful stereotype, probably. i'm not italian so

adam, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 21:53 (five years ago) Permalink

an australian video game criticism article was more effective at making me interested in an american history thing/what that american history thing means than the game it's criticizing did. tbf i'm non-american... but still.

honestly though this is less about the acceptance of racism/sexism in games tho and more about BI not being very good at being a mature story or w/e

I've Seen rRootage (Will M.), Wednesday, 10 April 2013 02:43 (five years ago) Permalink

I think you're right about that, tho the whole rickety crashing end to the story really is fun. Except for all the press f to trigger next cutscene approach

adam, Wednesday, 10 April 2013 03:01 (five years ago) Permalink

wint
‏@dril
"Is Wario A Libertarian" - the greatest thread in the history of forums, locked by a moderator after 12,239 pages of heated debate,

乒乓, Wednesday, 10 April 2013 03:02 (five years ago) Permalink

honestly though this is less about the acceptance of racism/sexism in games tho and more about BI not being very good at being a mature story or w/e

― I've Seen rRootage (Will M.), Tuesday, April 9, 2013 10:43 PM (27 minutes ago) Bookmark

the casual use of the history of oppressed peoples to make your video game have ~moral heft~ is probably the exact kind of casual racism that fits within the ambit of this thread

nb i havent played BI

乒乓, Wednesday, 10 April 2013 03:12 (five years ago) Permalink

i meant that my comment was about above, not the conversation at large

I've Seen rRootage (Will M.), Wednesday, 10 April 2013 04:21 (five years ago) Permalink

http://theyreallsobeautiful.com/interview-with-evan-narcisse/

乒乓, Sunday, 21 April 2013 13:34 (five years ago) Permalink

THE HENRY
I am a: hairy Asian muscle panda

no idea an asian bear was a panda i mean yes i get it but seriously?

H-E-double-s1ockisticks (forksclovetofu), Sunday, 21 April 2013 21:37 (five years ago) Permalink

that was new to me too

Nhex, Sunday, 21 April 2013 22:16 (five years ago) Permalink

what do you have against it xp

乒乓, Sunday, 21 April 2013 22:58 (five years ago) Permalink

just that it sounds like the kinda thing that would be racist if it was engendered outside the community? and it's not really clear that it was? like is a black bear a... well i dunno, a black bear?

brb buying poppers w/my employee discount (forksclovetofu), Sunday, 21 April 2013 23:12 (five years ago) Permalink

this is outside my ambit but as far as im concerned a gay asian dude can call himself whatever hte fuck he wants

乒乓, Sunday, 21 April 2013 23:20 (five years ago) Permalink

not arguing that fact, you asked what i had against it

brb buying poppers w/my employee discount (forksclovetofu), Sunday, 21 April 2013 23:21 (five years ago) Permalink

what im asking is, what puts you in a position to judge?

乒乓, Sunday, 21 April 2013 23:22 (five years ago) Permalink

hooboy, not going down that road with you dude. are you genuinely offended/surprised that i wrote "seriously?" on the internet at a first exposure to the idea of a gay asian subgroup called "pandas"?

brb buying poppers w/my employee discount (forksclovetofu), Sunday, 21 April 2013 23:54 (five years ago) Permalink

the whole subgroup may just be THE HENRY for all i know o'course

brb buying poppers w/my employee discount (forksclovetofu), Sunday, 21 April 2013 23:58 (five years ago) Permalink

seriously thought forks wrote endangered outside the community and thought he was taking this all way too literally

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Monday, 22 April 2013 00:00 (five years ago) Permalink

hooboy, not going down that road with you dude. are you genuinely offended/surprised that i wrote "seriously?" on the internet at a first exposure to the idea of a gay asian subgroup called "pandas"?

― brb buying poppers w/my employee discount (forksclovetofu), Sunday, April 21, 2013 7:54 PM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark

i'm just wondering what made u decide to share ur opinion about this topic that u have a lot of experience with

乒乓, Monday, 22 April 2013 00:08 (five years ago) Permalink

^solitary posts, etc
i decided to share my opinion precisely BECAUSE i have no experience with it and was hoping one of ilx's many all-purpose mavens would step up and let me know "yes this is a thing, here's some background *let me google that for you*" or alternately "i am a large gay asian man and ime this dude is on some ish that's just his own thing".
of course, this being ilx, i am being capn-save-a-panda'd

brb buying poppers w/my employee discount (forksclovetofu), Monday, 22 April 2013 00:14 (five years ago) Permalink

i'll take it that u acted in good faith, but u couldn't have phrased it in a better way??

乒乓, Monday, 22 April 2013 00:16 (five years ago) Permalink

iirc i actually typed "are asian bears seriously called pandas?" and then realised that i was inviting a zing

brb buying poppers w/my employee discount (forksclovetofu), Monday, 22 April 2013 00:18 (five years ago) Permalink

what im asking is, what puts you in a position to judge?

― 乒乓, Sunday, April 21, 2013 7:22 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

uhh judging owns

turds (Hungry4Ass), Monday, 22 April 2013 00:46 (five years ago) Permalink

stfu

turds (Hungry4Ass), Monday, 22 April 2013 00:46 (five years ago) Permalink

Actual pandas are not even bears, which makes this more confusing

Dr. Adorbius (mh), Monday, 22 April 2013 03:32 (five years ago) Permalink

Red pandas, I mean. Which I think means they're communist

Dr. Adorbius (mh), Monday, 22 April 2013 03:33 (five years ago) Permalink

Or native American.

how's life, Monday, 22 April 2013 10:29 (five years ago) Permalink

who judges the judges?

Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Monday, 22 April 2013 14:55 (five years ago) Permalink

the Supreme Court?

we're up all night to get picky (Noodle Vague), Monday, 22 April 2013 14:55 (five years ago) Permalink

reread thread, guess i can see where "Seriously?" could be read as a guffaw, hope it's clear twas not meant as such

brb buying poppers w/my employee discount (forksclovetofu), Monday, 22 April 2013 15:10 (five years ago) Permalink

so there's some stupid fucking anime game (dragon's crown) (this is all i know about it) with big tittied ladies and people are mad about it, which is fine, and the penny arcade asshole weighs in:

It’s very weird to pull up a story about a game with frankly visionary art and hear why it shouldn’t exist, or to hear what I supposedly fantasize about, or what kind of power I supposedly revere, and any attempt to defend oneself from these psychotic projections or to assert that creators may create is evidence of a dark seed sprouting in the heart. It’s an incredible state of affairs. They’re not censors, though - oh, no no. You’ll understand it eventually; what you need to do is censor yourself.

i just... hate this guy. this like george will smugness. it enrages me.

adam, Wednesday, 24 April 2013 18:20 (five years ago) Permalink

why am i even posting about penny arcade. we all know.

adam, Wednesday, 24 April 2013 18:21 (five years ago) Permalink

did this go unmentioned at the time? just started playing saboteur. the free-with-purchase dlc adds... tits.

goole, Wednesday, 24 April 2013 18:24 (five years ago) Permalink

afaict it adds no 'real' game content, but makes all the burlesque showgirls topless. jfc.

goole, Wednesday, 24 April 2013 18:25 (five years ago) Permalink

yo is that game any good? i got it for like a dollar but haven't even booted it up

adam, Wednesday, 24 April 2013 18:29 (five years ago) Permalink

concept, variety of activity, mission design (so far): good!
story, v/o, etc: average-to-poor. depends on your tolerance for one euro accent after another.
visuals, gameplay: average for 09, pretty dated now

goole, Wednesday, 24 April 2013 18:36 (five years ago) Permalink

goole that is terrible but I can't stop laughing

Call me at **BITCOIN (DJP), Wednesday, 24 April 2013 18:36 (five years ago) Permalink

http://www.joystiq.com/2009/12/03/the-saboteur-day-one-dlc-unlocks-nudity-self-loathing/

sorry, it also adds "new Parisian hiding spots, [and] a new minigame"

goole, Wednesday, 24 April 2013 18:37 (five years ago) Permalink

there are lots of good reasons to hate oneself, but pixelated titties? eh

Nhex, Wednesday, 24 April 2013 19:40 (five years ago) Permalink

are the new parisian hiding spots in breasts?

brb buying poppers w/my employee discount (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 24 April 2013 22:12 (five years ago) Permalink

no, those are exposed

Call me at **BITCOIN (DJP), Wednesday, 24 April 2013 22:13 (five years ago) Permalink

"dragon's crown" is pretty bad as far as the fantasy title stakes go

the bitcoin comic (thomp), Wednesday, 24 April 2013 22:42 (five years ago) Permalink

i keep trying to think of a similarly useless (fantasy noun + possessive marker + fantasy noun) name but they all end up making more sense. chimeara's sword. orc's ring. goblin's robes. wtf does a dragon even want a crown for. mb he is ruling over other dragons, nm, is there a kingdom of dragons in this game, that could rule

someone posted some of the concept art upthread but it's been occluded by the whole panda thing

the bitcoin comic (thomp), Wednesday, 24 April 2013 22:44 (five years ago) Permalink

i like vanillaware generally

brb buying poppers w/my employee discount (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 24 April 2013 22:45 (five years ago) Permalink

generally

brb buying poppers w/my employee discount (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 24 April 2013 22:53 (five years ago) Permalink

i mean it looks like a fun game?

did they run this feature before or after guy put his foot in his mouth i wonder

http://penny-arcade.com/report/article/you-dont-like-breasts-you-must-like-men-the-disappointing-conversation-and

the bitcoin comic (thomp), Wednesday, 24 April 2013 22:54 (five years ago) Permalink

dont read the comments dont read the comments why do i always read the comments

brb buying poppers w/my employee discount (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 24 April 2013 22:58 (five years ago) Permalink

so for a game that does not come out for three months there is a hell of a lot of porn of this

the bitcoin comic (thomp), Wednesday, 24 April 2013 23:01 (five years ago) Permalink

... that walking gif looks kinda great actually

Nhex, Wednesday, 24 April 2013 23:29 (five years ago) Permalink

The hell is going on with the lumpy, horse-shaped amazon lady with a tiny head in that PA article thom posted? wtffff.

It is like ganging up on Enya (Trayce), Thursday, 25 April 2013 01:02 (five years ago) Permalink

Coming this fall: R. Dragon's Crumb

Doctor Casino, Thursday, 25 April 2013 01:06 (five years ago) Permalink

ha, exactly!

Nhex, Thursday, 25 April 2013 01:46 (five years ago) Permalink

i mean, i imagine an adventurer would get to have some pretty major thighs going on at some point. it's kind of funny kind of sad that the artist decided to exaggerate that to the level of fetish also?

the bitcoin comic (thomp), Thursday, 25 April 2013 01:56 (five years ago) Permalink

horsey

mh, Thursday, 25 April 2013 01:57 (five years ago) Permalink

"Let's step back from the social justice aspect of this kind of artwork and deal with the fact that 9 year-old girls find it stupid. I'd love for her to see games and want to be these women, not simply recoil at the fact that they're designed for my eyes more than her power fantasies."

Wtf, this is exactly what the social justice aspect is!

Andrew Farrell, Thursday, 25 April 2013 07:37 (five years ago) Permalink

it is and it isn't.

the bitcoin comic (thomp), Thursday, 25 April 2013 17:39 (five years ago) Permalink

i. i think this is a good case for why 'casual racism and sexism are more accepted in video games than other media' is a bad way of phrasing the argument vs. something like 'more visible in video games than other media'. -- like, having sexed-up fantasy figures turned up to such a ridic degree makes it more obvious and undeniable that something's going on, that there is a problem here that needs addressing.

ii. kind of sad compared to previous form; a couple gay girls i know thought odin sphere was really amazing w/ the fairy princess types just whaling on guys and beating the shit out of them

iii. huh, i wanna play odin sphere

the bitcoin comic (thomp), Thursday, 25 April 2013 17:47 (five years ago) Permalink

its on psn

brb buying poppers w/my employee discount (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 25 April 2013 17:50 (five years ago) Permalink

i got it on sale on PSN a few weeks ago, been meaning to crack it

Nhex, Thursday, 25 April 2013 18:05 (five years ago) Permalink

http://i.imgur.com/Vex0WGq.jpg

turds (Hungry4Ass), Thursday, 25 April 2013 22:29 (five years ago) Permalink

weirdly into that

resulting paste of mashed cheez poops (silby), Thursday, 25 April 2013 22:30 (five years ago) Permalink

Reminding me weirdly of some awesome Greek mythology picture books I devoured as a kid.

Doctor Casino, Friday, 26 April 2013 03:34 (five years ago) Permalink

Somehow more erotic than his woman pics

mh, Friday, 26 April 2013 04:06 (five years ago) Permalink

This guy really might have a future in dude-on-dude art

None of them looks mysteriously like a horse

mh, Friday, 26 April 2013 04:07 (five years ago) Permalink

i would play a game like that, maybe based on the three kingdoms

http://i.imgur.com/008oKkZ.jpg

乒乓, Friday, 26 April 2013 11:51 (five years ago) Permalink

that is making me nostalgic for Dragon Force

Call me at **BITCOIN (DJP), Friday, 26 April 2013 13:41 (five years ago) Permalink

wm blake + zangief + bear porn

goole, Friday, 26 April 2013 15:22 (five years ago) Permalink

zangief and bear porn are kind of the same already i guess

goole, Friday, 26 April 2013 15:22 (five years ago) Permalink

yup

Nhex, Friday, 26 April 2013 15:53 (five years ago) Permalink

Odin Sphere I managed to snag used at a late lamented Hollywood Video at the end of the PS2. It's worth playing.

Hockey Drunk (kingfish), Saturday, 27 April 2013 02:35 (five years ago) Permalink

one month passes...

We talked about Sarkeesian a bit upthread.

polyphonic, Wednesday, 29 May 2013 21:45 (five years ago) Permalink

Sarkeesian is such an easy target for internet trolls. I honestly wish she were a little more challenging and interesting but she's still among the better video game essayists if only due to the low bar.
― I offer about as much diversity as a saltine cracker. (forksclovetofu), Monday, April 1, 2013

i am somewhat amazed someone made a ten minute video refuting zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
― Nhex, Monday, April 1, 2013 11:49 PM

i didn't even give much of a fuck that you were mod (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 29 May 2013 21:46 (five years ago) Permalink

she still doesn't mean 'tropes'

the bitcoin comic (thomp), Wednesday, 29 May 2013 21:49 (five years ago) Permalink

tramps in video games, pt 1

polyphonic, Wednesday, 29 May 2013 21:50 (five years ago) Permalink

hey hey lemme defend my internet honor for a sec - i was referring to the creepy troll response video there, not her video

Nhex, Thursday, 30 May 2013 00:08 (five years ago) Permalink

I think the context is there if you were around for the original conversation

they are either militarists (ugh) or kangaroos (?) (DJP), Thursday, 30 May 2013 00:12 (five years ago) Permalink

She released a second video, right?

Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Thursday, 30 May 2013 01:36 (five years ago) Permalink

I've been playing Arkham City and the gameplay is pretty awesome and stunning but my desire to show off to friends my 80-hit combo skillz w Catwoman is often mitigated by the cringe-worthy taunts the bad guys shout at her.

Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Thursday, 30 May 2013 01:38 (five years ago) Permalink

so arkham city is an interesting case because about nine-tenths of what i knew about it before actually playing it was that it hated women

the bitcoin comic (thomp), Thursday, 30 May 2013 20:24 (five years ago) Permalink

then a friend showed me it and i was like, huh, there are many other things that are embarrassing and bad about this game

the bitcoin comic (thomp), Thursday, 30 May 2013 20:25 (five years ago) Permalink

two weeks pass...

That's Explosion.com article is bullshit.

Hockey Drunk (kingfish), Saturday, 15 June 2013 06:45 (five years ago) Permalink

i somehow avoided this nonsense until now. wtf is this nonsense about exactly? is anyone a fan who can tell me and spare me the googling
http://www.gametrailers.com/videos/yluvyt/hey-ash--whatcha-playin---tomb-raider

i didn't even give much of a fuck that you were mod (forksclovetofu), Monday, 17 June 2013 04:50 (five years ago) Permalink

This nonsense = don't ever watch 'shows' on Gametrailers.com

Andrew Farrell, Monday, 17 June 2013 19:01 (five years ago) Permalink

got it

i didn't even give much of a fuck that you were mod (forksclovetofu), Monday, 17 June 2013 19:03 (five years ago) Permalink

*adds gametrailers.com to my list of do-not-watch-shows-from list*

乒乓, Monday, 17 June 2013 19:08 (five years ago) Permalink

Once you have 'youtube' it's just mopping up from there.

Andrew Farrell, Monday, 17 June 2013 19:12 (five years ago) Permalink

two months pass...
two weeks pass...

in which the writer basically apologizes for being offended
http://www.joystiq.com/2013/09/20/opinion-blue-estates-humiliated-mermaid-wont-leave-me-alone/

I’m a sophisticated guy, I like sophisticated music (forksclovetofu), Friday, 20 September 2013 20:35 (four years ago) Permalink

it's like, i know i shouldn't look at the comments of these kinds of articles but i can't look away

Nhex, Saturday, 21 September 2013 01:52 (four years ago) Permalink

ughhhhhh why do i ever start reading comments sections on things

Doctor Casino, Friday, 27 September 2013 19:10 (four years ago) Permalink

Why is casual racism/sexism more accepted in Grand Theft Auto than other games (these days)?

☪☮⚤✡i☯✞ (am0n), Friday, 27 September 2013 19:16 (four years ago) Permalink

no takers huh

☪☮⚤✡i☯✞ (am0n), Friday, 27 September 2013 22:15 (four years ago) Permalink

cuz 1 billion dollars

erect, sporadic, notorious, genitals (forksclovetofu), Friday, 27 September 2013 22:26 (four years ago) Permalink

The defence everyone seems to come up with is "sure, the game hates women and minorities, but it hates everyone else too so that's ok". I'm far from convinced that does make it ok, but it muddies the water enough for them to get away with it.

JimD, Saturday, 28 September 2013 08:05 (four years ago) Permalink

most people seem to claim "it's satire", and when you explain that it's pretty difficult to do satirical racism and misogyny when there's no sense that the game or any of its developers disapprove of it they get real defensive

Andrew Kornfan, Saturday, 28 September 2013 09:19 (four years ago) Permalink

Somebody could probably get a good feature out of exploring the way-different vibes that GTA vs Saints Row take with their characters and the difference between the sexy/sexist breakdown happens.

Your Own Personal El Guapo (kingfish), Friday, 4 October 2013 07:05 (four years ago) Permalink

Oooh, this is a good key word: "hateful". Nothing in SR seems hateful at all. The entire game is a pisstake.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-09-30-women-in-games-rebalancing-the-scales

'"I haven't played GTA V, and I'll be sorry if my enjoyment is spoiled because one writer, or a collection or writers, was allowed to introduce content that I find alienating or hateful"

Your Own Personal El Guapo (kingfish), Saturday, 5 October 2013 20:06 (four years ago) Permalink

I've never seen that site before but I love that all the comments list the title and studio of each commenter; it means I can look up what work people with cool opinions have done or are doing :~)

Andrew Kornfan, Sunday, 6 October 2013 00:22 (four years ago) Permalink

http://tevisthompson.com/on-videogame-reviews/

乒乓, Thursday, 17 October 2013 23:36 (four years ago) Permalink

have we learned nothing from Evony?

Nhex, Monday, 21 October 2013 05:42 (four years ago) Permalink

must be so hard to keep female gamers out of games like that

socki (s1ocki), Monday, 21 October 2013 14:09 (four years ago) Permalink

finally we have the pirate sideboob game the public has been crying out for

Bitch Fantastic (DJP), Monday, 21 October 2013 15:46 (four years ago) Permalink

hoo boy I am having a discussion with a friend of mine of Facebook over that Bioshock/reviewers suck blog article

fortunately dude is mostly reasonable so it's more "I disagree with that post you linked" rather than "obviously the guy who wrote that is the real racist"

Bitch Fantastic (DJP), Monday, 21 October 2013 15:57 (four years ago) Permalink

is the whole series this dumb? I've never played any of em

original bgm, Monday, 21 October 2013 16:09 (four years ago) Permalink

Apparently yes? I've never played them, either.

Bitch Fantastic (DJP), Monday, 21 October 2013 16:10 (four years ago) Permalink

is the new one not good? i've been waiting for it to go on discount on steam, and the first one i remember was pretty great (at least up until the twist - i got bored shortly thereafter). it looks pretty

Mordy , Monday, 21 October 2013 16:11 (four years ago) Permalink

lol:

The game's concept was developed by Irrational's creative lead, Ken Levine, and was based on the ideas of Objectivism as highlighted by Ayn Rand, while incorporating influences from other authors such as George Orwell.

original bgm, Monday, 21 October 2013 16:15 (four years ago) Permalink

the first one was more of a "critique" of objectivism than "based on"

Mordy , Monday, 21 October 2013 16:22 (four years ago) Permalink

infinite is very good. those challops are pretty stale.

brand nubian wafers (bnw), Monday, 21 October 2013 16:35 (four years ago) Permalink

first one was great. it did drag on a bit too long and the gameplay was so-so FPS junk, but those are minor complaints in what was an excellent package. I still have to get to the second one

Nhex, Monday, 21 October 2013 16:56 (four years ago) Permalink

one month passes...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU9mZJ8vmdA

gyac, Wednesday, 4 December 2013 12:33 (four years ago) Permalink

i didn't know there was more than one of those girlfriend xbone ads. they're on a roll!

Nhex, Thursday, 5 December 2013 03:34 (four years ago) Permalink

infinite is very good. those challops are pretty stale.

― brand nubian wafers (bnw), Monday, October 21, 2013 12:35 PM (1 month ago) Bookmark

its one of the worst games ive ever played. i pirated it and i still feel ripped off

Hungry4Ass, Thursday, 5 December 2013 03:47 (four years ago) Permalink

fucking idiots
http://storify.com/SeeBeeWhitman/depression-quest-harassment-campaign

( X '____' )/ (zappi), Friday, 13 December 2013 14:18 (four years ago) Permalink

this shit makes me so sad and angry and it just perpetuates over and over and i don't know how it's ever going to stop

ciderpress, Friday, 13 December 2013 14:27 (four years ago) Permalink

its one of the worst games ive ever played. i pirated it and i still feel ripped off

― Hungry4Ass, Wednesday, December 4, 2013 9:47 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is what you need to do. cue up a video of ken levine discussing the depth of the storyline you are failing to grasp. have that playing a loop on your headset as you go through the game. then report back to me on if you still hate it.

bnw, Friday, 13 December 2013 14:46 (four years ago) Permalink

xp ugh. good for her for standing up to these idiots, it's a shame she has to deal with this bullshit

Nhex, Friday, 13 December 2013 14:59 (four years ago) Permalink

i don't think this belongs in this thread but i couldn't think of a better one to post it too. depressing:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/12/13/the-messy-saga-of-replays-paul-trowe-as-al-lowe-quits/

Mordy , Friday, 13 December 2013 15:25 (four years ago) Permalink

wtf at that link in the comments citing this guy as a child molester 20 years ago

Nhex, Friday, 13 December 2013 15:38 (four years ago) Permalink

gamers barrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrf

rhyme heals all goons (m bison), Saturday, 14 December 2013 17:28 (four years ago) Permalink

"megaman has never been a western series. please keep western ideals/movements such as 'female empowerment and representation' very far away from megaman."

i want to say one word to you, just one word:buzzfeed (difficult listening hour), Saturday, 14 December 2013 18:30 (four years ago) Permalink

i read that and immediately think megaman v john wayne totin copies of the second sex in his satchel

rhyme heals all goons (m bison), Saturday, 14 December 2013 21:20 (four years ago) Permalink

three weeks pass...

http://imgur.com/a/sfl3r

, Saturday, 4 January 2014 02:26 (four years ago) Permalink

even the edited versions are still kinda over the top, why bother, honestly?
ugh, don't make me side with creepos

Nhex, Saturday, 4 January 2014 04:50 (four years ago) Permalink

p.s. new year, new acct d?

Nhex, Saturday, 4 January 2014 06:21 (four years ago) Permalink

tbf its not like there aren't skimpy costumes for the male characters too

( X '____' )/ (zappi), Saturday, 4 January 2014 11:38 (four years ago) Permalink

http://www.psmag.com/navigation/health-and-behavior/women-arent-welcome-internet-72170/

long read, not video games but same frequency

bnw, Tuesday, 7 January 2014 15:05 (four years ago) Permalink

very sad

Nhex, Wednesday, 8 January 2014 14:50 (four years ago) Permalink

one month passes...

the internet was harassing Dong Nguyen for making a game, which is unacceptable. -- links to tweets where ppl are yelling at him for taking it off the website; probably over-the-top but his one link to how the internet harassed Nguyen disproves his argument.

Mordy , Tuesday, 11 February 2014 01:25 (four years ago) Permalink

it seems to me like flappy bird has been really embraced. it's super popular and everyone i know loves it.

Mordy , Tuesday, 11 February 2014 01:26 (four years ago) Permalink

I definitely saw some twitter weirdness about the guy before he announced he was taking it down. But I have no idea if the race thing has anything to do with it.

emil.y, Tuesday, 11 February 2014 01:29 (four years ago) Permalink

And the abuse directed toward him for taking it down doesn't disprove that there was abuse directed toward him beforehand. That's a pretty odd thing to claim.

emil.y, Tuesday, 11 February 2014 01:30 (four years ago) Permalink

it's just that he cites that particular link as evidence that ppl disliked the game. he continues in the next paragraph:


This harassment was also completely baseless, because (a) the game is rather well-made, if you like these sorts of insta-death reflex games, (b) Flappy Bird lets you restart quickly, which is usually a huge monetization point -- why would a supposedly-greedy mobile game developer monetize their game so inefficiently?, (c) if you look at the actual pixels, Nguyen clearly did not rip any art, and who cares if he wanted to put green pipes in his game?

if he can't correctly parse a bunch of ppl being upset bc a game they like is being taken away from them, maybe he lacks the skills to do a more complex sociopolitical analysis of the racial context of the game.

Mordy , Tuesday, 11 February 2014 01:34 (four years ago) Permalink

Hm, okay, I get what you're saying - he didn't provide the right evidence, it kind of scuppers his argument. But personally I've seen stuff that backs up his claim... But yeah, I can't be arsed to look for it myself now, and he should have done the work anyway, not me.

emil.y, Tuesday, 11 February 2014 01:37 (four years ago) Permalink

Robert Yang Fartmaster • a day ago −
Hey "fartmaster" -- almost every mainstream outlet has made a point of announcing Nguyen as Vietnamese. I don't think that, itself, is bad, because I'd agree that's newsworthy given the state of the mobile market... yet it certainly plays a role... like whether you think he's just expressing his love of Mario (what, so your fandom of Mario is more genuine than his?) vs. he's somehow now a conniving thief who's claiming he invented the idea of pixel art pipes that he drew himself?

like what is even the argument here? that ppl are being racist against the vietnamese designer homaging a japanese video game icon by relying on the old shopworn vietnamese are thieves (?????is this a thing????) stereotype?

Mordy , Tuesday, 11 February 2014 01:38 (four years ago) Permalink

i noticed more than a few articles that announced his "theft" of assets as a settled, done deal, with tons of angry comments about it, which was just BS

socki (s1ocki), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 15:50 (four years ago) Permalink

it's a good time to hate on the Asian man

Nhex, Tuesday, 11 February 2014 15:51 (four years ago) Permalink

i wonder if this is more due to the fact that there's a sort of concept of the non-Japanese-east that is all pirate-y and stuff -- if this game was made by someone from north america, or europe, or even japan, it wouldn't be stealing -- it'd be "reference" or "homage" or something. but since he's from some place where they steal software and there's no "tacit knowledge" of the "relevance" of "video game" """history""" there it must be theft?

I've Seen rRootage (Will M.), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 17:01 (four years ago) Permalink

idk i have a terrible head cold and that might not make any sense but :( @ ppl picking THAT particular nit, wtf, seriously.

i'd be interested to see if there was some precedent for this in western writing about eastern music, ie. "(person from asia) ripped off this part of this song" in the same breath as "(person from USA) sampled this song"

I've Seen rRootage (Will M.), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 17:04 (four years ago) Permalink

two months pass...

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/21/female-journalist-gets-rape-threats-over-comic-book-criticism.html

This is from the world of comic books, but this seems to be the most relevant thread to this topic. Dunno if it needs a parallel one on ilc.

glasses jacket jerfman (how's life), Friday, 25 April 2014 22:31 (four years ago) Permalink

Because it was created by a straight white male, this checklist will likely be taken more seriously than if it had been written by virtually any female gamer.

http://www.polygon.com/2014/4/23/5640678/playing-with-privilege-the-invisible-benefits-of-gaming-while-male

bizarro gazzara, Saturday, 26 April 2014 20:07 (four years ago) Permalink

I like this relevant Cracked podcast ep, as Jason Pargin begins to peck away at defining the problem:

http://www.earwolf.com/episode/shockingly-sexist-messages-in-the-modern-world/

Stephen King's Threaderstarter (kingfish), Sunday, 27 April 2014 16:51 (four years ago) Permalink

porting the invisible knapsack to consoles

purposely lend impetus to my HOOS (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Monday, 28 April 2014 16:31 (four years ago) Permalink

two weeks pass...

http://www.wired.com/2014/05/fighting-online-harassment/

, Friday, 16 May 2014 03:19 (four years ago) Permalink

iot found that persistently negative players were only responsible for roughly 13 percent of the game’s bad behavior. The other 87 percent was coming from players whose presence, most of the time, seemed to be generally inoffensive or even positive. These gamers were lashing out only occasionally, in isolated incidents—but their outbursts often snowballed through the community. Banning the worst trolls wouldn’t be enough to clean up League of Legends, Riot’s player behavior team realized. Nothing less than community-wide reforms could succeed.

, Friday, 16 May 2014 03:19 (four years ago) Permalink

interesting

Nhex, Friday, 16 May 2014 04:53 (four years ago) Permalink

two weeks pass...

http://i.imgur.com/1KdE2r4.png

, Wednesday, 4 June 2014 11:16 (four years ago) Permalink

France.

JimD, Wednesday, 4 June 2014 11:19 (four years ago) Permalink

Seriously??

it definitely wasn't designed to be a pants pocket player (stevie), Wednesday, 4 June 2014 12:33 (four years ago) Permalink

what am i looking at here

♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Wednesday, 4 June 2014 12:59 (four years ago) Permalink

oh igi. well, let's hope that was randomly generated, then --

♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Wednesday, 4 June 2014 13:00 (four years ago) Permalink

one month passes...
one month passes...

*rmde*

Nhex, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 19:40 (three years ago) Permalink

Voice your comments below, but please, please keep it civil and free from personal attacks.

I mean is this just something that gets tacked to the end of everything written for this site, because it's completely against the gleeful "just desserts" vibe of the rest of the text

Star Gentle Uterus (DJP), Tuesday, 19 August 2014 20:17 (three years ago) Permalink

i wasted 10 minutes of my breathing life scrolling through this dude's operatic 4 part tumblr post and didn't see anything about trading good press for sex? are they just inventing that out of the 'she had sex with a games writer' accusation or did i miss it?

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 20:36 (three years ago) Permalink

no it's in there - but i don't think he accuses her of doing it for favors.

Mordy, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 20:42 (three years ago) Permalink

anyway, o_O at this thing. honestly i feel pretty bad for this dude. he got gaslit pretty bad.

Mordy, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 20:42 (three years ago) Permalink

on a scale of not-very-likely to utter horseshit this seems like utter horseshit

go ahead. make vid where u rap about this new TMNT movie. (forksclovetofu), Tuesday, 19 August 2014 20:43 (three years ago) Permalink

just checked that developer's twitter feed and she seems to have undergone/is undergoing a barrage of harassment from 4chan shitboys. i'll assume this blog post ref'ing a tumblr is trash

there's no mention of this on kotaku?

goole, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 20:43 (three years ago) Permalink

"If you’re not a huge fan of Kotaku or the infamous social justice warrior / indie developer Zoe Quinn, you’re in for a treat."

grossest sentence

LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Tuesday, 19 August 2014 20:45 (three years ago) Permalink

http://ohdeargodbees.tumblr.com/post/95188657119/once-again-i-will-not-negotiate-with-terrorists
basically, looks like the internet took the side of a douchebag ex-boyfriend in humiliating and degrading this woman, to no one's surprise

Nhex, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 20:46 (three years ago) Permalink

i think as a rule that private relationships should be kept private and i don't think - whatever she did - that it deserved whatever kind of heat she's now getting from the psychopaths on 4chan. still, i find the guy's narrative very believable + sympathetic, and i can understand if he really went through that why he'd want to hurt her publicly. i still think trying to do so is a shitty thing to do, and appropriate for this thread.

Mordy, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 20:54 (three years ago) Permalink

cheating is bad and ugly breakups are bad but airing out your dirty laundry on the internet is fucking bitchmade and siccing the cheetoh-dust army on your ex who works in technology is evil

goole, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 20:59 (three years ago) Permalink

yes, i agree. ppl are shit.

Mordy, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 21:02 (three years ago) Permalink

He's scum for taking it public. End of story.

EZ Snappin, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 21:02 (three years ago) Permalink

trading good press for sex?

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, August 19, 2014 8:36 PM (23 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i don't think he accuses her of doing it for favors.

― Mordy, Tuesday, August 19, 2014 8:42 PM (17 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ok soooo--if he *doesn't* accuse her of doing it for favors, the writers are inventing the quid pro quo? which isn't, say, airing your ex girlfriend's sexual history in a giant tumblr post and blasting it at 4chan knowing they'll spew horror at her level of crazy irresponsible and shitty and misgynistic, but is pretty irresponsible and shitty and misogynistic?

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 21:03 (three years ago) Permalink

yeah when you have been wronged & lied to there's a strong impluse to LET THE WORLD KNOW but damn if some shame wouldn't be a perverse help to this guy right now. what is it with nerds and total disclosure these days? the "hypocrisy" of the normals has its uses, guys...

xp yeah i agree, i wasn't speaking against your post Mordy

goole, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 21:04 (three years ago) Permalink

my basic takeaway is that most people involved in videogames should be set on fire, which is too bad because I really enjoy videogames and I think the screaming would keep me up at night

Star Gentle Uterus (DJP), Tuesday, 19 August 2014 21:06 (three years ago) Permalink

GameBurner 2014 - The Baconing

go ahead. make vid where u rap about this new TMNT movie. (forksclovetofu), Tuesday, 19 August 2014 21:18 (three years ago) Permalink

RIP upper m m s

Xp

, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 21:28 (three years ago) Permalink

a lot of ppl are upset bc in general the gaming media is horrible and it seems like a journalist gave a designer good publicity without disclosing that they were in a relationship. while i agree that the cheating + the lying + the gaslighting are probably not in the public interest, i can understand why ppl already enflamed about compromised journalistic standards would take interest in this story.

Mordy, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 21:49 (three years ago) Permalink

like i'm sure they didn't trade sexual favors for good coverage. the good coverage was pretty minimal and that seems unnecessarily vulgar. but i wasn't allowed to review books written by ppl i had once taken classes w/ in college years prior bc of the conflict of interest. otoh there seem to be far worse stuff going on in gaming media, like blatant payola for coverage stuff.

Mordy, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 21:51 (three years ago) Permalink

cheating is bad and ugly breakups are bad but airing out your dirty laundry on the internet is fucking bitchmade and siccing the cheetoh-dust army on your ex who works in technology is evil

― goole, Tuesday, August 19, 2014 9:59 PM (51 minutes ago)

^^^

emil.y, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 22:15 (three years ago) Permalink

can we not call it bitchmade tho like

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Wednesday, 20 August 2014 02:32 (three years ago) Permalink

if she wasn't actually swapping sex for good reviews how are the original blog/this woeful gamerheadlines piece not slander or libellous? and either way, these pieces are just absolutely disgusting. her riposte is very strong and stirring, and she's right - she shouldn't have to defend any of this stuff in public.

i was a downy lad, and twee (stevie), Wednesday, 20 August 2014 10:40 (three years ago) Permalink

Xp: can we also not be down on people who eat cheeto dust, while we're at it?

how's life, Wednesday, 20 August 2014 10:47 (three years ago) Permalink

Yeah, actually, my eyes elided over 'bitchmade', probably because I have no idea what it means? Is it a US thing or am I just behind on my internet slang? Obv anything with 'bitch' is going to be at least a little problematic.

Anyway, the general thrust of goole's post is still OTM.

emil.y, Wednesday, 20 August 2014 11:23 (three years ago) Permalink

also

Among them was current Kotaku writer Nathan Grayson, apparently solicitating sexual favours for positive press.

so solicitating is a word now?

i was a downy lad, and twee (stevie), Wednesday, 20 August 2014 11:26 (three years ago) Permalink

also

leveraging her sexual connections

this guy's whole take on sex and women is unsurprisingly weird and awkward and how you might expect an extra terrestrial to discuss human behaviour when viewed from afar

i was a downy lad, and twee (stevie), Wednesday, 20 August 2014 11:28 (three years ago) Permalink

also

https://thezoepost.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/screen-shot-2014-08-19-at-7-07-56-pm.png

is astonishingly asinine and self-serving bullshit

i was a downy lad, and twee (stevie), Wednesday, 20 August 2014 11:31 (three years ago) Permalink

did i ever talk about how i went to my brother's convocation from college (diff in Canada, college != university, actually not 100% sure of the american analogue to this -- technical college? junior college? you can take anything from a 6mo bartending course to a 4y PR course) in this thread?

he convocated (sry not a word) with the entire media division of his school, he was in radio but i also saw the kids go up for tv, PR, advertising, etc etc etc including game design. as someone working in that field my heart was mildly warmed to see the bright new faces of the industry get their diploma-certificate-things. i was significantly less warmed to see more fedoras worn with gowns (2) than women (0). :( always reminded that the overwhelming sameness of the people working in the industry doesn't just start at the corporate level, it starts super super low. i was hoping, i guess?, that at the age newly graduating, the gap would be decreasing -- after all, everyone, not just boys of families with means, have had computers and internet from... almost birth at this point! and yet, something is still happening where the culture even at the education level is still homogenized. i dont get why the priv sector doesn't see this as a problem. of course tho investing in scholarships and grants for women would be seen as an attack on MENS RIGHTS or something idk. the whole thing BUMS ME OUT. :(

Neckbread (Will M.), Wednesday, 20 August 2014 14:56 (three years ago) Permalink

i meant to say something a day ago re: "bitchmade" and didn't. it's an ugly coinage when unpacked even just a little. so, yeah.

goole, Friday, 22 August 2014 00:50 (three years ago) Permalink

in the '90s bitchmade meant 'awesome' (probably?)

polyphonic, Friday, 22 August 2014 03:00 (three years ago) Permalink

have not investigated much beyond headlines but apparently a couple internet creepo types made a 'documentary' 'exposing' anita sarkeesian (sp)

just a heads up i guess

goole, Monday, 25 August 2014 17:40 (three years ago) Permalink

or 'are making' more accurately

goole, Monday, 25 August 2014 17:42 (three years ago) Permalink

why can't any of these be as entertaining as "In Search of Bigfoot"

Nhex, Monday, 25 August 2014 17:48 (three years ago) Permalink

re: the documentary, I liked a lot about this piece:

http://badassdigest.com/2014/08/26/video-games-misogyny-and-terrorism-a-guide-to-assholes

polyphonic, Tuesday, 26 August 2014 23:11 (three years ago) Permalink

But it’s hard to self-identify as “a gamer” when there’s also a large swathe of that community apparently committed to presenting us all as a bunch of hateful sociopaths. It’s like being a moderate Muslim in the middle of the continuing ISIS takeover and oppression of Iraq.

Mordy, Tuesday, 26 August 2014 23:15 (three years ago) Permalink

heh

polyphonic, Tuesday, 26 August 2014 23:20 (three years ago) Permalink

Maybe the ISIS dudes met on 4chan.

polyphonic, Tuesday, 26 August 2014 23:22 (three years ago) Permalink

since even relative-anonymity on the internet makes ppl act like assholes, obv the answer is:

http://www.hoodedutilitarian.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/panopticon-diagram.jpg

Mordy, Tuesday, 26 August 2014 23:25 (three years ago) Permalink

haha why didn't i watch this before

these guys are amazing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROHvvtUcp8I

polyphonic, Wednesday, 27 August 2014 21:58 (three years ago) Permalink

Watched some of that a few days ago and it took me three minutes to figure out it wasn't a parody. The 'tasche dude is unreal.

Wristy Hurlington (ShariVari), Wednesday, 27 August 2014 22:08 (three years ago) Permalink

*'tache*

Wristy Hurlington (ShariVari), Wednesday, 27 August 2014 22:08 (three years ago) Permalink

oh god i'm terrified of that

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Wednesday, 27 August 2014 22:37 (three years ago) Permalink

the standy-up guy likes some Ayn Rand too so y'know

Daphnis Celesta, Wednesday, 27 August 2014 22:45 (three years ago) Permalink

Wow, have you looked at mustachioed guy's channel?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdkB2-kqbrw&list=UU6TJdRrZR_WacbxJWiRZ5_g

jmm, Wednesday, 27 August 2014 23:34 (three years ago) Permalink

god, they're so fucking boring

go ahead. make vid where u rap about this new TMNT movie. (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 27 August 2014 23:55 (three years ago) Permalink

He's like a dozen different kinds of creep all at once. I'm dreading this video titled 'The Jewish Question'.

jmm, Thursday, 28 August 2014 02:55 (three years ago) Permalink

^interest peaked^

Mordy, Thursday, 28 August 2014 03:02 (three years ago) Permalink

Unless the answer is "Try the rugelach, you'll like it," run

go ahead. make vid where u rap about this new TMNT movie. (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 28 August 2014 03:02 (three years ago) Permalink

Anyway, Feminist Frequency's new video is good stuff. The scene she shows from God of War III is incredible.

jmm, Thursday, 28 August 2014 14:20 (three years ago) Permalink

yeah having tuned out AAA games for the past 5 years or so (except for skyrim) i was amazed/horrified by that god of war clip

ciderpress, Thursday, 28 August 2014 18:19 (three years ago) Permalink

is it notably worse than the fucking QTE from gow 1?

go ahead. make vid where u rap about this new TMNT movie. (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 28 August 2014 19:08 (three years ago) Permalink

That isn't even the worst scene in God of War III, btw, it's just one that fits the parameters of Anita's theme for the video. There's a scene that isn't a background detail that is sooooo vile.

polyphonic, Thursday, 28 August 2014 19:16 (three years ago) Permalink

AAA games are absolutely rife with this shit and it's not even a little bit of a secret
it's part of why i'm more forgiving of the mawkish indie variety of mopey games where the sexism is more fedora'd a'la Braid

go ahead. make vid where u rap about this new TMNT movie. (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 28 August 2014 19:26 (three years ago) Permalink

Braid wore a trilby iirc

mh, Thursday, 28 August 2014 19:58 (three years ago) Permalink

lol wtf

https://twitter.com/dankmtl/status/505101945976422401

goole, Thursday, 28 August 2014 21:43 (three years ago) Permalink

needs more game informer
also notable lack of joystiq and kotaku, must mean something

go ahead. make vid where u rap about this new TMNT movie. (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 28 August 2014 22:02 (three years ago) Permalink

Lolling hard at Jim Sterling being on there, the guy who called any woman who dared to disagree with him a "feminazi slut"

( X '____' )/ (zappi), Thursday, 28 August 2014 22:49 (three years ago) Permalink

It seems he had a Damascene moment at some point in the last 3 years
http://www.gamingaswomen.com/posts/2013/06/an-interview-with-jim-sterling-about-sexism-in-game-culture/

tsrobodo, Thursday, 28 August 2014 23:12 (three years ago) Permalink

why is there a kotaku uk

lag∞n, Thursday, 28 August 2014 23:20 (three years ago) Permalink

most 15 year-old nerds too lazy to learn japanese

Daphnis Celesta, Thursday, 28 August 2014 23:22 (three years ago) Permalink

I've been watching the feminist frequency videos over past couple of days (specifically the damsels in distress trilogy). They are seriously good/depressing.

Watched that one about women in background and sadly that bit from GOW 3 is typical. The first two games were cert good but with a fair amount of uncomfortable moments like that (not just against women).

hyggeligt, Friday, 29 August 2014 10:48 (three years ago) Permalink

Well, let me know if I'm seeing that scene the way you are. I haven't played this game, so I'm basing everything I know about it on that scene alone. The player gets an achievement called "I didn't do it... but I wish I did." I think this is meant to read "I didn't rape her... but I wish I did." The only alternative reading I can think of is "I didn't kill her, etc.", but that doesn't make sense, since he did kill her by jamming her into the door mechanism. It could be that the game designers are such morons that they think this wasn't really killing her, because it wasn't the entire and essential purpose of the action or something. I won't credit them with not being morons.

If the first reading is most plausible, then the idea of a rape achievement goes well beyond uncomfortable. I really didn't think mainstream games had stooped that low. And this is the shit that gets 9/10.

jmm, Friday, 29 August 2014 12:52 (three years ago) Permalink

do all AAA games have boobs in them now? did the esrb throw in the towel?

ciderpress, Friday, 29 August 2014 13:49 (three years ago) Permalink

feel kinda like "casual" needs to be removed from the thread title

stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Friday, 29 August 2014 17:48 (three years ago) Permalink

just watched the FF episode; good work

Nhex, Friday, 29 August 2014 19:20 (three years ago) Permalink

They are seriously good/depressing.
otm, i need to go back and watch the rest

Nhex, Friday, 29 August 2014 19:21 (three years ago) Permalink

lol

https://twitter.com/MichaelToole/status/503576805169586176

goole, Friday, 29 August 2014 19:33 (three years ago) Permalink

Huh, there's some serious overlap between anti-feminist vloggers and atheist vloggers.

jmm, Friday, 29 August 2014 20:27 (three years ago) Permalink

Almost find the hundreds of people lining up to post variations on 'I don't support death threats but isn't the real problem how this overshadows Sarkeesian being wrong' creepier than the full-bore psychopaths.

Wristy Hurlington (ShariVari), Friday, 29 August 2014 20:31 (three years ago) Permalink

it's weird, you'd think minds unfettered from primitive superstition wd be less fucken stupid

Daphnis Celesta, Friday, 29 August 2014 20:31 (three years ago) Permalink

apparently doesnt help too much

lag∞n, Saturday, 30 August 2014 00:37 (three years ago) Permalink

was thinking like 90% of video games is just killing the hell out of thousands of human beings which is irl considered as bad or worse than sexual assault, and studies have tended to show that video games dont make people actually do murder, the defenders of said sexist imagery cld at least attempt to defend themselves by arguing that its an amoral symbolic landscape that doesnt operate in the same way as the real world, except that then they go and behave as exactly a literal projection of that same subhuman sexist garbage and completely discredit their whole scene and make life miserable for those just trying to get a word in edgewise

lag∞n, Saturday, 30 August 2014 00:47 (three years ago) Permalink

and these dudes being like "stop insulting 'gamers'!" right after someone has pointed out that a near-hegemony play video games, but people who feel the need to self-identify in that way are gutter trash who are acting like shitty games targeted to trash males is a way of life and not just a segment with disproportionate marketing budgets targeted to their shitty whims

mh, Saturday, 30 August 2014 05:26 (three years ago) Permalink

like 90% of video games is just killing the hell out of thousands of human beings

Yeah, this is a fairly common "rebuttal" to the feminist critique - the idea that everyone is killed regardless of gender. However, it doesn't deal with the fact that only men are given agency in this landscape. The point is that women are only things to be murdered, whereas men get to be both subject and object.

emil.y, Saturday, 30 August 2014 12:05 (three years ago) Permalink

(But then of course when you say this someone inevitably goes "well, what about Lara Croft?" and you have to roll your eyes and go, "oh, okay, just 99.99999% of games, then".)

emil.y, Saturday, 30 August 2014 12:11 (three years ago) Permalink

'Feminism' Vs FACTS (Anita Sarkeesian DESTROYED!) by Thunderf00t 164,813 views

REFUTING ANITA SARKEESIAN's "Damsel in Distress: Part 2" by The Amazing Atheist 351,554 views

Feminist Hypocrisy by Tyrant60 73,227 views

Female Game Developer's response to Tropes vs Women by Doll Divine Dress Up Games 92,872 views

a spectrum is taunting ur OP (wins), Saturday, 30 August 2014 12:12 (three years ago) Permalink

ah i see the amazing atheist is getting in on the action nice very nice

lag∞n, Saturday, 30 August 2014 12:25 (three years ago) Permalink

Yeah, this is a fairly common "rebuttal" to the feminist critique - the idea that everyone is killed regardless of gender. However, it doesn't deal with the fact that only men are given agency in this landscape. The point is that women are only things to be murdered, whereas men get to be both subject and object.

― emil.y, Saturday, August 30, 2014 8:05 AM (20 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ya tbh im not really too familiar w the whole conflagration, seems very dire tho, these gamers shd take a chill pill

lag∞n, Saturday, 30 August 2014 12:29 (three years ago) Permalink

I love these rebuttals. This guy's strategy is just to wing it for ninety minutes straight while getting increasingly drunk http://youtu.be/fuJeVV36NlQ

jmm, Saturday, 30 August 2014 13:31 (three years ago) Permalink

hes got rolling rock beer and a rolling rock shirt

lag∞n, Saturday, 30 August 2014 13:33 (three years ago) Permalink

oh I haven't clicked on any of these things why the hell would I do that

a spectrum is taunting ur OP (wins), Saturday, 30 August 2014 13:35 (three years ago) Permalink

like unless these guys have proven that she fabricated all those clips they and we already know they aren't "debunking" anything

a spectrum is taunting ur OP (wins), Saturday, 30 August 2014 13:36 (three years ago) Permalink

comedy

lag∞n, Saturday, 30 August 2014 13:39 (three years ago) Permalink

tbh I think my 1st post told the whole story on that score, not gonna spend my afternoon watching 90-minute vids of unpleasant misogynist ranting

a spectrum is taunting ur OP (wins), Saturday, 30 August 2014 13:43 (three years ago) Permalink

http://midnightresistance.co.uk/articles/plight-grown-ass-gamer

How are you supposed to discuss cultural criticism with someone who genuinely believes that nobody should have the right to comment on a piece of art for fear of somehow tainting the sanctity of the artist's original vision? Or people who think that a games journalist being friends with a game developer is on par with Watergate? How is any adult human being supposed to 'hear both sides of the story' when one side is an egg avatar moralising about a grown woman's personal life?

emil.y, Saturday, 30 August 2014 13:43 (three years ago) Permalink

I only watched about 10 minutes, but yeah, it was not a worthwhile endeavour. I just thought it was a funny example.

jmm, Saturday, 30 August 2014 14:00 (three years ago) Permalink

http://i.imgur.com/nnAi3M3.png

lag∞n, Saturday, 30 August 2014 14:13 (three years ago) Permalink

these people should be executed

a spectrum is taunting ur OP (wins), Saturday, 30 August 2014 15:19 (three years ago) Permalink

#GamerGate is p funny

lag∞n, Sunday, 31 August 2014 17:26 (three years ago) Permalink

http://i.imgur.com/m1kpxBV.png

lag∞n, Sunday, 31 August 2014 17:28 (three years ago) Permalink

hm

Spirit of Match Game '76 (silby), Sunday, 31 August 2014 17:33 (three years ago) Permalink

That guy doesn't seem so bad from the Youtube vids I've seen. I dunno why he's identifying himself among those attacked by the 'end of gamers' meme. People are taking it too literally.

jmm, Sunday, 31 August 2014 19:24 (three years ago) Permalink

we must destroy all gamers

lag∞n, Sunday, 31 August 2014 20:28 (three years ago) Permalink

Sorry, I didn't see bit above until now about GOW achievement. I have nothing one way or the other to help clarify but going by old games on PS2 (pre-achievements) the most negative interpretation would probably be right.

Appalled at all the responses but especially at that screenshot of the twitter posts. Awful.

hyggeligt, Sunday, 31 August 2014 20:36 (three years ago) Permalink

This hobby & industry is a cesspool

ra's al goole (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Sunday, 31 August 2014 20:58 (three years ago) Permalink

no wai am i going to investigate in detail but #gamergate is just gamers applying the language of oppressed groups to themselves in a way that is beyond parody, right?

Merdeyeux, Sunday, 31 August 2014 21:30 (three years ago) Permalink

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/224400/Gamers_dont_have_to_be_your_audience_Gamers_are_over.php
not always a fan of alexander's writing or pov but this is pretty much otm

the other song about butts in the top 5 (forksclovetofu), Sunday, 31 August 2014 22:02 (three years ago) Permalink

^^I really like that post
All the games I like best have this quality: "We make and play fewer linear games about one person saving the world."
I tried watching Sarkeesian's latest video and I could not get v far into it – youtube started buffering at 3 minutes and I just took it as a sign to quit. Like, I don't need evidence of a bunch of games I don't play showing that women are great to be objects for looking sexy or chopping up.
At least Minecraft is really big!

when you call my name it's like a prickly pear (Crabbits), Sunday, 31 August 2014 22:31 (three years ago) Permalink

Yeah, that's good. I think this deserves further investigation and unpacking (which I'm sure others are doing, in response or in parallel):

If our medium is designed for people to stay secluded for dozens of hours while having their egos stroked, then we reap what we sow in terms of the kinds of people who emerge from this pastime. We need to consider the very real possibility that the offensive behavior displayed by gamers in recent weeks is not unrelated to the artifacts they rally around (which I doubt are especially obscure). These people didn’t come from nowhere to fight about nothing. They came from games to fight about games. They’re organic results of the medium we’ve all played a role in cultivating, and they won’t go away if the medium doesn’t change significantly.

Was thinking about this earlier with regard to the kind of forum-responses discussions of any of the recent shameful events seem to get. There's a very consistent tone to the sniffing, know-it-all but user of "cool" profanity gamer-as-judge. There's a sort of character or posting style or actual personality that just appears everywhere on the Internet where 'gamer' types are too be found, and at a certain point you have to wonder: are games attractive to people who see the world like this, or do people see the world like this because they play a lot of games? (Or because they hang out on a lot of gaming internet sites.) Obviously there are billions of other factors here, not least race, class, and ahem gender. And I can't really articulate this that well, but there's something in the way these folks talk that overlaps and reinforces what they're saying. It would be really interesting to do a video series unpacking game scenes that encourage just generally being a bad listener, shutting your ears to critique of privilege, blaming victims...

I guess what I mean is that (loud, forum-posting type) gamers seem, versus others of presumably similar station in life, to be much more aggressive in pursuing and defending rationalizations like this nonsense about Zoe Quinn. I don't think it's enough to say that the "journalistic integrity" objection is a smokescreen for sexism, or that it all just stems from the attitudes of frustrated shut-in males who make up some subset of the gaming population but can't account for how widespread these kinds of statements are. Falling onto the "journalistic integrity" smokescreen is a key rhetorical act of sexism in this instance, and somewhere along the line, these guys are learning, from games or from each other or someplace else, that this kind of rhetorical act is fair play, makes them righteous and just and wise judges, makes them super-smart, lets them fold their arms in self-satisfaction and gaze down at the fools, women-fools, anti-gamer fools, feminist-fools, that peep and blunder beneath their lofty perches. Can can someone start making games that short-circuit that?

Doctor Casino, Sunday, 31 August 2014 22:35 (three years ago) Permalink

Isn't this fanboy rather than gaming-specific ugliness? (I just recently heard about the death threats for tepid batman and guardians of galaxy reviews.)

Philip Nunez, Sunday, 31 August 2014 22:50 (three years ago) Permalink

Well it's all under the hateful bankrupt "nerd culture" umbrella but but gamers are worse & these type of threats have happened for a long time and to women I've worked with

ra's al goole (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Sunday, 31 August 2014 22:57 (three years ago) Permalink

One maybe more specific thing that doesn't map out super easily is how "don't feed the troll," standard internet wisdom, breaks down completely when employed to discuss real-life harassment, in ways that obviously turn it into advice to silence victims and suppress criticism. You'd think it would be really obvious that what's involved is not "trolling," but something else, and yet there's a great willingness to accept that it is and treat it as such. Is this just because the sexist and misogynist reading of the situation as a whole makes reaching for that excuse an easy out, or is there something about "don't feed the troll" that itself needs to be problematized at the root? (e.g.: trolls are innately harmless and annoying if left alone, and/or: trolling is a phase, something immature gamers do on their way to being the people now posting "don't feed the troll." Or: Consensus about what is a 'troll' is maintained by hegemonic groups that know how to mark insider/outsider opinions as fundamentally valid/invalid - and in correlation, anyone unable to recognize the supposed troll is the one really at fault....)

re: fanboy/nerd vs. gamer: would totally agree that this is a general problem, although of course many of your comics nerds (for example) are also gamers and vice versa. I'm just speculating, very idly and without much evidence, that it would be interesting to figure out if there are particular tropes or figures in gaming, or in games journalism, or whatever, that foster and normalize this kind of fanboy ugliness. I like the point in the article linked above about the lone hero on an epic quest - spend most of your time being that character and maybe it does things to you. I wouldn't be the first to harp on the popularity of libertarianism among gamers, for example. So I guess even more than games lowering male gamers' general respect for women or consideration of them as humans, I wonder if there are places where gamers learn the specific rhetorical strategies and tones that are used a LOT by sexist fanboys and not quite as much by other sexists.

Doctor Casino, Sunday, 31 August 2014 23:05 (three years ago) Permalink

so much crossover with "mens rights" people, especially in language and how they argue, like those red pill creeps. ugh.

( X '____' )/ (zappi), Sunday, 31 August 2014 23:08 (three years ago) Permalink

And just zero language for talking about rights or privilege that isn't straight out of a Republican handbook or something - and this is in a group which I imagine (?) to be statistically more educated than the median. I'm thinking now of my students in the world of architecture, many of whom have not (due to the studio-intensive curricula in undergrad architecture programs) pursued many or any liberal-arts electives to speak of, and who are just very ill-equipped to talk with nuance about anything not strictly "architectural." Which is a problem first of all for architecture (since it turns out very few meaningful architectural problems are strictly architectural) but also for them as people: they're losing the chance to take advantage of their academic institutions' offerings that would make them more well-rounded and engaged interrogators of the world in general. I wonder how much of this might obtain in gamer-land.

Of course, it may be that the worst offenders really are just 13-year-olds modeling behavior they see in others (or in the games) as part of fitting in. But that too would be a whole nother area to investigate and push back against, and the feeling I get from reading any comments on any of these articles is that nobody wants to hear it, at all. I can totally understand the impulse for people who write on this stuff to just say fuck it, these people are not the core audience, can we just write them off as dinosaurs out of step with the mainstream now, please? It would be so great if the industry just pivoted towards better behavior and left the "hardcore" sexist gamers shrieking behind them. I don't really see that happening soon though.

Doctor Casino, Sunday, 31 August 2014 23:47 (three years ago) Permalink

that devin wilson post was good

Nhex, Monday, 1 September 2014 00:05 (three years ago) Permalink

btw doc all your posts otm

Nhex, Monday, 1 September 2014 00:05 (three years ago) Permalink

aw thanks, i kinda feel like i'm groping/speculating since I don't really hang out on these sites and haven't been a "gamer" of any stripe in over a decade except for the odd freebie browser game or w/e.

Doctor Casino, Monday, 1 September 2014 00:16 (three years ago) Permalink

gameing is going to go extinct because of social justice warriors

lag∞n, Monday, 1 September 2014 00:45 (three years ago) Permalink

its sad it was an art

lag∞n, Monday, 1 September 2014 00:45 (three years ago) Permalink

If our medium is designed for people to stay secluded for dozens of hours while having their egos stroked, then we reap what we sow in terms of the kinds of people who emerge from this pastime

this is interesting for sure

the ugliness of multiplayer gaming, the omnipresence of it, the rise of/mainstream acceptance of genres associated with it (that I gotta say, I personally dislike)... this is the stuff that really made me recede into a v specialized genre bubble. I'm skeptical that making games more 'social' is what's needed and that doesn't seem to be what wilson is getting at anyway... but like w/books, I actually really like the idea of enjoying games in isolation for long stretches of time and then thinking about what you got out of the experience or maybe discussing it w/ some friends. I don't necessarily think isolation is the problem here, but then again, I am an introvert...

original bgm, Monday, 1 September 2014 02:37 (three years ago) Permalink

Yeah, I agree that that's not what the piece is getting at - particularly, the "having their egos stroked" and maybe also the "dozens of hours" - my sense is that the daily time commitment for some of these games is really different in quantity and maybe in quality from the kind we might give a good book. If nothing else: it's okay to set the book down during some of that, shake off the cobwebs, remember that it's only a book, mentally argue back with the author, etc. The sense I get is that MMOs and multiplayer shooters are more demanding than that - look away for a minute and it's all over. But I could be totally wrong, I guess the players are also alt-tabbing to other windows to argue in forums and stuff. Maybe I'm just being crotchety and old - I really don't want this to just sound like some Concerned Parent Group worrying about what The Games are doing to The Kids. It's just, when I get hooked on a game, I totally get hooked - forget to eat, click again and again for one more round, the whole deal. And this is me playing brightly-colored solitaire puzzle games or whatever. If games that are primarily about ego-stroking, dominance and squawking sexual abuse to other players over a headset have that same power, I do think there's something to be said in wondering what kind of people will emerge from that.

Doctor Casino, Monday, 1 September 2014 03:05 (three years ago) Permalink

The funny thing (as a fellow introvert, Alan) these MMOs actually appeal really strongly to introverts, I suspect! My MMO experience isn't that deep (spent a couple years on some stuff pre-WOW, enough to know it's dangerous for me) but as someone who's spent also spent a crazy amount of time - seriously, thousands of hours at a mininum - on competitive games (particularly FPS and fighting games), it's something that gives the barest semblance of social interaction wrapped up in an activity you already love compulsively solo, but with an infinite variation due to human opponents. Even games that aren't competitive, like Diablo or Borderlands, can be all-consuming as drilling up numbers is even more addictive when you have others to enable and encourage your habit, also buried in the same realm.

Nhex, Monday, 1 September 2014 03:25 (three years ago) Permalink

Having interviewed some pros, to be good at a competitive level is a fulltime job at least 6-8 intense hours a day everyday.... A friend of mine had spent one of the last 3 years logged into wow (back at the peak of that game)

ra's al goole (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 1 September 2014 13:16 (three years ago) Permalink

these MMOs actually appeal really strongly to introverts

yeah, that follows. the 'infinite variation' thing does seem to be the emphasis, not anything truly social. good call.

particularly, the "having their egos stroked" and maybe also the "dozens of hours"

yep. and the endless un-critical consumption of things that are ultimately kind of hateful. and not even like nihilistic horror movies where you the viewer are being brutalized too and there's a weird catharsis there. it's more sanitized, you're in control, and you win.

original bgm, Monday, 1 September 2014 16:20 (three years ago) Permalink

This hobby & industry is a cesspool

― ra's al goole (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Sunday, August 31, 2014 1:58 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Monday, 1 September 2014 16:36 (three years ago) Permalink

http://quinnspiracy.com/godot.html

jmm, Monday, 1 September 2014 17:09 (three years ago) Permalink

pffthehehe

Spirit of Match Game '76 (silby), Monday, 1 September 2014 17:26 (three years ago) Permalink

I have an idea that so much video game discourse taking the form of Nintendo vs Sony vs Microsoft console wars sets gamers up for a combative approach too. It goes alongside the well-noted game aspects in that Devin Wilson post and fits in with his point seven on protecting value of investments. It might just be the communities I've happened to see, but I feel that mode gives a top down pervasive aggression that is in the interests of some of the most powerful companies in the business, in a way that you don't really get for any other media (it's more like sports, I guess? Comics which I know less about has two big mainstream companies, but less barrier to entry between the two of them?).

Iain Mew (if), Monday, 1 September 2014 17:37 (three years ago) Permalink

An interesting comparison would be to Mac vs. PC which also involves a big sunk investment where people really are unlikely to do both. There's definitely a rivalry there but I don't think it gets as aggressive. OTOH there are probably more gamers who have two or more current-generation systems than there are casual computer users who own both a Mac and a PC. Generally I think sports is probably about right, and similarly I think anybody challenged on this would say, hey, it's all in fun, we play up the ridiculousness of the rivalry just 'cause. But more generally the tendency to be in "camps" probably does things that we can't exactly chart out.

Doctor Casino, Monday, 1 September 2014 19:11 (three years ago) Permalink

http://www.polygon.com/2014/9/2/6096163/developers-end-hate-open-letter

Cool, I guess, but from a developer's point of view it seems like the easiest possible letter to sign. How about a letter pledging to avoid racist and misogynistic tropes, or, in the case of reviewers, to dock points from games that use them?

jmm, Tuesday, 2 September 2014 20:21 (three years ago) Permalink

That's already starting to happen in reviews from the more self-aware sites like Polygon, and naturally they always get blowback from the same idiots for "inserting politics" into their hobby

But you're right, it's super easy to sign a letter like that. I'm more interested in a developer of Saints Row coming out and saying he agreed with Sarkeesian. tbf the franchise has been getting better in that respect but it started off pretty terrible, as evidenced by plot points in SR1 and 2 used in her videos. (While at the same time, having possibly the the best non-hetero-normative gender slider that just about any game has had in SR2)

Nhex, Tuesday, 2 September 2014 20:49 (three years ago) Permalink

That video above is more sad to me than anything, that these nimrods exist

Nhex, Tuesday, 2 September 2014 20:51 (three years ago) Permalink

tbh i find all the #notallgamers "hey there's right and wrong on both sides here let's stop arguing about this stuff" clowns just as aggravating

Daphnis Celesta, Tuesday, 2 September 2014 20:53 (three years ago) Permalink

yeah, pretty similar to the #notallmen thing, totally missing the point

Nhex, Tuesday, 2 September 2014 20:56 (three years ago) Permalink

if sarkeesian ends up achieving something I will feel bummed at being proven wrong /:

♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Wednesday, 3 September 2014 10:05 (three years ago) Permalink

good attitude

socki (s1ocki), Wednesday, 3 September 2014 13:01 (three years ago) Permalink

johnny fiveaces ‏@brumbpo Aug 24

@Nicendeth @MichaelToole @Babylonian why do these turdmen always look like a Kane of Nod cosplay convention

irl lulz

Daphnis Celesta, Wednesday, 3 September 2014 17:34 (three years ago) Permalink

http://whatculture.com/gaming/10-things-need-know-gamergate-scandal.php

lol wtf, every single one of these is like 180deg wrong

goole, Thursday, 4 September 2014 17:10 (three years ago) Permalink

cant remember if gmart still reads here but v good article my man <3

Neckbread (Will M.), Thursday, 4 September 2014 17:10 (three years ago) Permalink

uh that was an xpost referring to his p4ste piece

Neckbread (Will M.), Thursday, 4 September 2014 17:10 (three years ago) Permalink

"Even the extremely controversial feminist, Christina Hoff Sommers posted a tweet in favour of #GamerGate"

Such diversity. Even quislings are in favour.

jmm, Thursday, 4 September 2014 17:33 (three years ago) Permalink

yeah, do not click on that whatculture article, it's super infuriating and awful, and it's broken u into a million ages so to read all of their bullshit you just give them even more clicks, fuck everybody

Doctor Casino, Thursday, 4 September 2014 17:37 (three years ago) Permalink

yeah.. when i got to #9 which was "everyone gets death threats, PSHAW" my eyes couldn't roll hard enough

Nhex, Thursday, 4 September 2014 17:48 (three years ago) Permalink

it's broken u into a million ages

This is very true.

jmm, Thursday, 4 September 2014 17:49 (three years ago) Permalink

hahaha

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwnH1q8IIAA_1Dk.png:large

Van Horn Street, Thursday, 4 September 2014 19:52 (three years ago) Permalink

good use of iso-cubes imo

⌘-B (mh), Thursday, 4 September 2014 19:57 (three years ago) Permalink

took me FAR too long to realize that was a parody

the other song about butts in the top 5 (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 4 September 2014 20:00 (three years ago) Permalink

how did you not realize the moment you got to "zoe quinn be arrested & tried to the full extent of the law for her duplicitous promiscuity and/or for really upsetting that developer guy"

Mordy, Thursday, 4 September 2014 20:08 (three years ago) Permalink

seemed in character tbqh

the other song about butts in the top 5 (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 4 September 2014 20:09 (three years ago) Permalink

"close down penny arcade as it is feminist" was the tell

the other song about butts in the top 5 (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 4 September 2014 20:09 (three years ago) Permalink

i'm sympathetic to poe's law but c'mon

Mordy, Thursday, 4 September 2014 20:09 (three years ago) Permalink

have those fucks weighed in on this at all? They seem to be forever discussing minutia of the most minor online gamer dustups in vicious form; i don't know whether not commenting or commenting stupidly would be more in character for them.
going in

the other song about butts in the top 5 (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 4 September 2014 20:10 (three years ago) Permalink

she should be arrested and tried for duplicitous promiscuity??? "all games journalists to not be friends with other games journalists"?? the whole thing is obv absurd.

Mordy, Thursday, 4 September 2014 20:10 (three years ago) Permalink

that's a parody yeah, but a quite subtle one.

Van Horn Street, Thursday, 4 September 2014 20:13 (three years ago) Permalink

have those fucks weighed in on this at all? They seem to be forever discussing minutia of the most minor online gamer dustups in vicious form; i don't know whether not commenting or commenting stupidly would be more in character for them.
going in

Them weighing in would accomplish nothing but drawing attention to themselves so I guess it's surprising they haven't shat a big mansplainy turd into this mess

Spirit of Match Game '76 (silby), Thursday, 4 September 2014 20:16 (three years ago) Permalink

or maybe serious. i don't know.

the other song about butts in the top 5 (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 4 September 2014 20:19 (three years ago) Permalink

oh and penny arcade is doing PAX (which they're part of? Not part of? depends on if they said anything stupid lately) so i think they're low profiling it but the dog whistle inherent in
"PAX is a nice reminder of just how incredible games and gamers really are. I always come away from the show inspired by this community. "
is pretty clear

the other song about butts in the top 5 (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 4 September 2014 20:21 (three years ago) Permalink

yeah, do not click on that whatculture article, it's super infuriating and awful, and it's broken u into a million ages so to read all of their bullshit you just give them even more clicks, fuck everybody

too late for me but aaargh yes

1. gamers are not a monolithic entity, it is dumb to say gamers are bad
2. people who disagree with me are clearly not gamers and are therefore not entitled to an opinion. i can tell this because because gamers are a monolithic entity and all think the same
3. in fact YOU are the real bigot for thinking that some games could deal with LGBT/women's/race issues/anything other than explosions and be appraised on different merits, did you ever think of that huh
4. x (which is y, and that is not made up it is a FACT) is in fact (did I mention FACT) y, namely here is a list of ways it is y, and in conclusion x is y

(OK pots'n'kettles here as I am ILX's most circularly tl;dr but holy shit tautologies)

the ghosts of dead pom-bears (a passing spacecadet), Thursday, 4 September 2014 20:36 (three years ago) Permalink

i dont know why i noticed this first but "burpturds" is not a spelling error even though it does point out the username as a spelling mistake

Neckbread (Will M.), Thursday, 4 September 2014 20:44 (three years ago) Permalink

there is a publisher called gamersgate, i bet they are not having a good time atm

Van Horn Street, Thursday, 4 September 2014 20:51 (three years ago) Permalink

"gamers" are not bad for the reasons you list but "gamer culture" is real and is historically pretty terrible in many ways

the other song about butts in the top 5 (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 4 September 2014 20:53 (three years ago) Permalink

and i say that as a "gamer"

the other song about butts in the top 5 (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 4 September 2014 20:53 (three years ago) Permalink

I went to QuakeCon twice in the very early 2000s

⌘-B (mh), Thursday, 4 September 2014 20:55 (three years ago) Permalink

#notalllamerz

Daphnis Celesta, Thursday, 4 September 2014 21:16 (three years ago) Permalink

the problem w/ letting "gaming culture" mean white male asshole gamers that do misogynistic things is that it actually simplifies an always diverse gaming community and disenfranchises them from how they've historically seen themselves. all these articles keep positing this diverse gamership as being something new that is replacing "old gaming culture," but that's not true. gamers have always been a diverse crowd and only when focusing on a very particular niche of the gaming market (tho, in AAA FPS games the most profitable) does it make sense to talk about "gaming culture" imo. like, the first gamer i ever knew was my mom playing zelda on her NES and return to zork on her computer. i've played w/ card gamers and wargamers and board gamers and indie gamers and sim gamers and IF gamers and classic RPG gamers and tabletop gamers and they're all such diverse + robust communities. idk. this is nitpicking bc i assume when we talk here about "gamers" and "gaming culture" we all know who we're talking about (4channers), but this has been bothering me so i wanted to toss in my 2 cents.

Mordy, Thursday, 4 September 2014 21:24 (three years ago) Permalink

one of the many issues here is that a very vocal minority (the one you call 4channers) is claiming that 'gamers' title as theirs and only theirs.

Van Horn Street, Thursday, 4 September 2014 21:27 (three years ago) Permalink

for sure, but they're wrong and we know they're wrong

Mordy, Thursday, 4 September 2014 21:28 (three years ago) Permalink

there is a weird complex here where a lot of the douchebags went to war over who could and who couldn't be a "gamer" slightly before it turned into "SJWs are the enemy"

take on board what your saying but that storm will pass i'm sure

Daphnis Celesta, Thursday, 4 September 2014 21:31 (three years ago) Permalink

Pretty sure Davis Aurini will become a MP in rural Alberta in the coming 15 years.

Van Horn Street, Thursday, 4 September 2014 21:39 (three years ago) Permalink

I wish I hadn't posted that video of his upthread. I posted his whole playlist by accident, which embeds whichever video is newest, and I can only imagine what vile shit might appear on there. Do any of you have mod powers by any chance?

jmm, Thursday, 4 September 2014 21:51 (three years ago) Permalink

"TINY INDIE DEVELOPERS" was what gave it away for me, but I read the bolded part first and now I just want "G-DAY" to happen.

jmm, Thursday, 4 September 2014 22:02 (three years ago) Permalink

http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/Authors/david_auerbach-authorbio.png
just another face in the diverse crowd

the other song about butts in the top 5 (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 4 September 2014 23:20 (three years ago) Permalink

by which i mean to say that while a middle aged white guys opinion (mine included) isn't invalid, i would be interested in reading a few pieces from the pen of that diverse crowd of non middle aged white guy gamers who look at this situation any other way than "yeah, 'gamer culture' is a cesspool"

the other song about butts in the top 5 (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 4 September 2014 23:25 (three years ago) Permalink

by which i mean to say GAMERS ARE NOT THE AGGRIEVED PARTY IN THIS FUCKSTORM

the other song about butts in the top 5 (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 4 September 2014 23:27 (three years ago) Permalink

That article somehow manages to 'cover' the recent brouhaha without actually discussing gender, sexism, misogyny, death threats, Sarkeesian or Quinn. Kinda, uh, weird.

Doctor Casino, Thursday, 4 September 2014 23:30 (three years ago) Permalink

Also manages to attribute quotes to "Gamasutra’s Keza MacDonald", but if you follow the link it's a blog post which clearly states "The following blog post, unless otherwise noted, was written by a member of Gamasutra’s community. The thoughts and opinions expressed are those of the writer and not Gamasutra or its parent company." Which is a tiny detail, but if you're writing a lolgamejournalism article at least try and get the basics right.

( X '____' )/ (zappi), Thursday, 4 September 2014 23:44 (three years ago) Permalink

by which i mean to say GAMERS ARE NOT THE AGGRIEVED PARTY IN THIS FUCKSTORM

i disagree. gamers are the aggrieved party. anita sarkeesian is a gamer. zoe quinn is a gamer.

Mordy, Thursday, 4 September 2014 23:50 (three years ago) Permalink

and like, yes, i'm being pedantic but if you're going to ignore my point forks

Mordy, Thursday, 4 September 2014 23:50 (three years ago) Permalink

#notallMordys

EZ Snappin, Friday, 5 September 2014 00:34 (three years ago) Permalink

mordy... are you... deliberately ignoring that the mainstream majority video gaming world out there - from retailers to developers to advertising to websites and so on and so on and so on are 100% aimed at the specific gamer demographic we're talking about here

Nhex, Friday, 5 September 2014 01:57 (three years ago) Permalink

i'm not ignoring it at all. i'm questioning whether some of these memetic terms, 'death of gamers,' or just 'gamers' in general as referring to the most banal audience for the AAA video game industry, are descriptive or even useful.

Mordy, Friday, 5 September 2014 02:27 (three years ago) Permalink

dude, I'm not ignoring your point; in the essay you just posted sarkeesian and quinn are emphatically NOT gamers, they're the journalists and industry that are antagonizing presumably "real" gamers

also I'm gonna suggest that you consider that taking the "let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater" view on gamergate is a lot like taking the "well why did they take naked pictures of themselves anyway" view on the fappening: while you may well have a legit point to be made, you're aligning yourself with the worst possible people and intentionally overlooking all that groups immensely dumbfuck philosophies

the other song about butts in the top 5 (forksclovetofu), Friday, 5 September 2014 02:32 (three years ago) Permalink

like i don't know how "gamers" v. "SJP" became the rhetorical context for this debate - at least apparently in the rhetoric used by game journalism and brought onboard to ilx - but it's essentially ceding the argument to the "gamers." there isn't a "gamer culture" that is being attacked by liberal outsiders who want it to change. there is a gamer culture where some people in the culture are making a claim about what gaming means, and some other people are making another claim about what gaming should mean. and it turns out that the latter ppl - those making the critique against "gamers" - are making the historically (and currently) valid claim: gaming is an inclusive medium that spans a diverse group of gamers - and games that aren't recognizing that aren't representing those participants.

Mordy, Friday, 5 September 2014 02:36 (three years ago) Permalink

xp forks i'm not going to click on all these headlines but are any of them by sarkeesian or quinn? bc these are the articles he's responding to:

Such articles appeared concurrently in Gamasutra (“ ‘Gamers’ are over” and “A guide to ending ‘gamers’ ”), Destructoid (“There are gamers at the gate, but they may already be dead”), Kotaku (“We might be witnessing the ‘death of an identity’ ”) and Rock, Paper, Shotgun (“Gamers are over”), as well as Ars Technica (“The death of the ‘gamers’ ”), Vice (“Killing the gamer identity”) and BuzzFeed (“Gaming is leaving ‘gamers’ behind”).

Mordy, Friday, 5 September 2014 02:37 (three years ago) Permalink

SJP = SJW i meant

Mordy, Friday, 5 September 2014 02:38 (three years ago) Permalink

being a gamer isn't like a passed-on social status or genetic right. these people, who are in the hegemony, are outright saying these people are not gamers and that they are biased against said group

⌘-B (mh), Friday, 5 September 2014 02:40 (three years ago) Permalink

being a gamer is like being a reader. it's a kind of very loose diverse social community.

Mordy, Friday, 5 September 2014 02:41 (three years ago) Permalink

gaming is a diverse medium, except for the fact that the games that sell huge-ass numbers in the /gamer website/ demo are all the same shit

I mean, these people are not getting all aggro about Wii Fit

⌘-B (mh), Friday, 5 September 2014 02:42 (three years ago) Permalink

the term does not mean what you think it means it is not like reader.

⌘-B (mh), Friday, 5 September 2014 02:43 (three years ago) Permalink

ok but lol that's the point. it's a fight between the /gamer website/ and the /gamer website/ demo. that's why it's ridiculous that this pseudo-journalist community that has been catering the same juvenile Maxim-for-video games community for years is suddenly declaring that this is the "death of gamers." even when killing "gamers" they're still taking the hegemonic right of deciding who constitutes the gaming community. they're the problem in the first place.

Mordy, Friday, 5 September 2014 02:45 (three years ago) Permalink

gamers are ppl who play games. gaming is the act of playing games. games of all kinds are only getting bigger and bigger in probably every demo, even the bro gamer demo. even the weird incest game loving kotaku demo i bet.

Mordy, Friday, 5 September 2014 02:47 (three years ago) Permalink

i've always found 'gamer' to be like 'foodie' in that it's a weird and contrived way to distinguish one's identity from someone who's merely an enthusiast for an activity that pretty much everyone does, and the only way to really do that is to be obnoxious about it, or actually do it to a rarified level. so i'm kind of ok with 'gamer' being used exclusively for self-identified precious jerkfaces and actual professionals who compete, or like Billy Mitchell, both.

Philip Nunez, Friday, 5 September 2014 03:17 (three years ago) Permalink

Mordy, I feel like you are using linguistics to muddy what EVERYONE IN THE WORLD UNDERSTANDS IN THIS CASE to be the referent of "gamer".

you must have me confused with my stacked as fuck and imposing friend (jjjusten), Friday, 5 September 2014 03:27 (three years ago) Permalink

Hence the reason that those very self-identified fucksticks feel that gamers are being attacked - they don't think any other kind of person gets to be in their club, so when outside voices intrude, they are in opposition to gamers or gaming culture. By default.

you must have me confused with my stacked as fuck and imposing friend (jjjusten), Friday, 5 September 2014 03:31 (three years ago) Permalink

http://i60.tinypic.com/6t0d2a.png

Mordy, Friday, 5 September 2014 03:31 (three years ago) Permalink

Awesome. Who gives a shit?

you must have me confused with my stacked as fuck and imposing friend (jjjusten), Friday, 5 September 2014 03:32 (three years ago) Permalink

Your argument is akin to saying that "Christian Identity" movements aren't bad because while it is a code for white supremacy, Christians having a sense of identity is totally ok.

you must have me confused with my stacked as fuck and imposing friend (jjjusten), Friday, 5 September 2014 03:35 (three years ago) Permalink

No, my argument is akin to saying that "Christian" movements aren't bad because while some Christian movements use the term as code for white supremacy, Christians as a group are far more diverse than this limited usage implies (and that it in fact serves white supremacists to have "Christians" confused for "Christian Identity").

Mordy, Friday, 5 September 2014 03:36 (three years ago) Permalink

#notallMordys

EZ Snappin, Friday, 5 September 2014 03:38 (three years ago) Permalink

Like if IS starts to fall a part it will make no sense to start writing articles about how this is the "Death of Islam," even tho acc to members of IS their brand of Islamism is the only authentic brand. Similarly, that some bro gaming culture is having a public tantrum doesn't really mean anything about gamers in general (as I believe the word is popularly understood outside this case), and writing articles about the death of gaming is similarly stupid. To your point that anyone discussing this issue knows what we mean we say "gamers," I agreed w/ that way above when I admitted my point was a nitpick in light of the broader conversation.

Mordy, Friday, 5 September 2014 03:39 (three years ago) Permalink

EZ, are you afraid no one saw your shit joke the first time you posted it?

Mordy, Friday, 5 September 2014 03:40 (three years ago) Permalink

Nope. But you obviously don't get it.

EZ Snappin, Friday, 5 September 2014 03:41 (three years ago) Permalink

Seems to me that you are sidestepping the shitiness of this whole situation by falling back on the fact that these dudes are misusing the term "gamer", which is similar to sidestepping Christian identity awfulness by saying those dudes are misusing the term "Christian" so it looks like my point still stands, and in fact thanks for illustrating it for me.

you must have me confused with my stacked as fuck and imposing friend (jjjusten), Friday, 5 September 2014 03:41 (three years ago) Permalink

I get it. You believe that in trying to explain why I think the term has been hijacked to refer to a niche culture within gaming at large, that actually I'm trying to deflect the accusations being made about gamers. I don't think it takes the critique away, though, to note that gaming is much more diverse than the community under discussion. It can strengthen the critique by reaffirming various gaming communities over the years who have been building diverse cultures while bro gaming has been in existence - it reminds us that ludic engagement in gameplay doesn't have to take the form that it does in a particular kind of hyper-expensive, violence-saturated, sexually offensive capitalist driven product.

Mordy, Friday, 5 September 2014 03:45 (three years ago) Permalink

That was xp intended.

Mordy, Friday, 5 September 2014 03:45 (three years ago) Permalink

There are tons of people on ILX that love video games but no one wants to claim the poisoned fruit of "gamer" other than you. Does that mean nothing?

⌘-B (mh), Friday, 5 September 2014 03:49 (three years ago) Permalink

Look, I work in an industry that has at least partially pulled itself out of this cesspool in the last 20 years, if somebody wants to write an article about the death of the "guitar dude" despite being technically a prime specimen of guitar dude I am all for it.

you must have me confused with my stacked as fuck and imposing friend (jjjusten), Friday, 5 September 2014 03:50 (three years ago) Permalink

I don't know what that means. It's bizarre. SPECULATION: I think we have a bunch of people who probably until very recently thought of themselves of "gamers" and as this clusterfuck has blown up they've stopped identifying w/ the term bc they've started to believe it means something they hadn't thought they had signed onto. I think they believe that bc the discourse has been very effectively hijacked by so-called "gamers" and the /gaming media/. xp

Mordy, Friday, 5 September 2014 03:51 (three years ago) Permalink

Like "gamer" is a shit term, it's like claiming people who like food are foodies. I eat and enjoy food and enjoy cooking it, which is a normal pursuit and it's fine if someone thinks of me as a foodie or w/e but self-identification would be weird because it's something I do, not my identity

These dudes think they're Ryan Gosling in Drive as "the driver" when in fact their defining characteristic isn't playing games, it is being dickholes.

⌘-B (mh), Friday, 5 September 2014 03:52 (three years ago) Permalink

Yo Mordy how many gaming conventions have you been to

⌘-B (mh), Friday, 5 September 2014 03:53 (three years ago) Permalink

0

Mordy, Friday, 5 September 2014 03:53 (three years ago) Permalink

I have met gamers my friend, and you are no gamer

⌘-B (mh), Friday, 5 September 2014 03:54 (three years ago) Permalink

the hours i've spent in my life playing video games beg to differ

Mordy, Friday, 5 September 2014 03:54 (three years ago) Permalink

Wait hold up, now gaming media is to blame?

you must have me confused with my stacked as fuck and imposing friend (jjjusten), Friday, 5 September 2014 03:55 (three years ago) Permalink

well duh - gaming media has been creating bro gamer culture forever. i remember reading the most sexist shit in gaming magazines when i was growing up. they taught that culture to their readership.

Mordy, Friday, 5 September 2014 03:55 (three years ago) Permalink

i wish i could remember the magazine i once bought in a train station that was literally Maxim for video games. i think the rating system was on a scale from zero to having a beer and a woman sitting on your lap. odious shit. like i know they didn't invent Duke Nukem, but there's no reason they had to identify so hard w/ the most juvenile part of the industry when franchises like civilization + sim city has spanned the history of video games.

Mordy, Friday, 5 September 2014 03:57 (three years ago) Permalink

That is

A - uncomfortably close to the shade these assholes are throwing
B - weirdly analogous to the Fox News "lamestream media" approach

These dudes use the term like a banner, how is gaming media to blame for that? Should they be inventing a new name for them?

you must have me confused with my stacked as fuck and imposing friend (jjjusten), Friday, 5 September 2014 03:58 (three years ago) Permalink

Like you can read a shitload of books but until you join book club or write book reviews you are not part of "reader culture"

btw I bought every issue of "Video Games & Computer Entertainment" religiously and then subscribed to GamePro and later was all over some FPS websites circa 2000, which is where I am coming from

⌘-B (mh), Friday, 5 September 2014 03:58 (three years ago) Permalink

yes - they should call them bro gamers

Mordy, Friday, 5 September 2014 03:58 (three years ago) Permalink

The term is fucked, Mordy. You standing for "gamer" will change nothing.

⌘-B (mh), Friday, 5 September 2014 04:00 (three years ago) Permalink

i disagree - it'll be rehabilitated in a minute. ppl who play lots of games will want to call themselves gamers. they always have.

Mordy, Friday, 5 September 2014 04:01 (three years ago) Permalink

Gaming media has changed. Dramatically. These gamers of the modern day don't like that. It's part of their dumb as balls platform where everyone is a social justice warrior because they acknowledge that non Cheeto fingered white hetero dudes play games now. Blaming the media of now for that is fucking ridiculous.

you must have me confused with my stacked as fuck and imposing friend (jjjusten), Friday, 5 September 2014 04:01 (three years ago) Permalink

I don't want to call myself a gamer

you must have me confused with my stacked as fuck and imposing friend (jjjusten), Friday, 5 September 2014 04:02 (three years ago) Permalink

Like there was a period of time, probably over a hundred years ago, where "Zionist" was a pretty chill, homeland for a people term (history probably would show me otherwise, but run with it). Due to the timescale of the internet and video games, you are showing up in 2014 and saying "what do you have against zionists" when the popular North American perception is fucked up Christian evangelicals wanting to bring on the apocalypse

⌘-B (mh), Friday, 5 September 2014 04:03 (three years ago) Permalink

lol

Mordy, Friday, 5 September 2014 04:04 (three years ago) Permalink

And honestly I never have. That's why this "don't steal my identification!!!" approach makes literally no sense to me.

Xposts apparently

you must have me confused with my stacked as fuck and imposing friend (jjjusten), Friday, 5 September 2014 04:04 (three years ago) Permalink

And you saying it will be rehabilitated completely undermines your point that it is a neutral term!

⌘-B (mh), Friday, 5 September 2014 04:05 (three years ago) Permalink

well obv it's not a neutral term in this conversation! i'm not an idiot.

Mordy, Friday, 5 September 2014 04:05 (three years ago) Permalink

It's not a neutral term in any other conversation at the moment either, just FYI

you must have me confused with my stacked as fuck and imposing friend (jjjusten), Friday, 5 September 2014 04:07 (three years ago) Permalink

first they came for the gamer bros, and I laughed my ass off

stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Friday, 5 September 2014 04:07 (three years ago) Permalink

i bet u if i go out into my world of non-gamers and ask them what a gamer is 99% will tell me someone who plays games.

Mordy, Friday, 5 September 2014 04:07 (three years ago) Permalink

Even if that is true, so what?

you must have me confused with my stacked as fuck and imposing friend (jjjusten), Friday, 5 September 2014 04:08 (three years ago) Permalink

of that 99%, 80% will add "who live in their mother's basement"

stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Friday, 5 September 2014 04:09 (three years ago) Permalink

Haha yes

you must have me confused with my stacked as fuck and imposing friend (jjjusten), Friday, 5 September 2014 04:09 (three years ago) Permalink

Your entire argument has been that it is not a loaded term that most video game consumers don't really relate to

btw most video game consumers are women over 30 or w/e, who just play some games

do I do not think your world is representative, and the question you should ask is "are you a gamer, as in a term of self-identification"

⌘-B (mh), Friday, 5 September 2014 04:10 (three years ago) Permalink

DJP also otm

⌘-B (mh), Friday, 5 September 2014 04:10 (three years ago) Permalink

Go ahead and take a sec and look at the first 50 image search results for "gamer" and get back to me about your thoughts about how the public sees the term.

you must have me confused with my stacked as fuck and imposing friend (jjjusten), Friday, 5 September 2014 04:14 (three years ago) Permalink

now i'm worried i'm going to find out i'm also not a stoner bc i've never been to a cannabis convention

Mordy, Friday, 5 September 2014 04:23 (three years ago) Permalink

apparently the public views 'stoner' very different than i do according to GIS

LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Friday, 5 September 2014 04:28 (three years ago) Permalink

I prefer the term "hardcore gamer" myself. sounds so cool.

original bgm, Friday, 5 September 2014 04:29 (three years ago) Permalink

i wish i could find that picture of joyce carol oates playing n64

Philip Nunez, Friday, 5 September 2014 04:33 (three years ago) Permalink

this weekend i'm gonna ask my DS-addicted mum if she's a gamer, might get in trouble tho

Daphnis Celesta, Friday, 5 September 2014 06:04 (three years ago) Permalink

mordy is actually right here guys and this - "Like you can read a shitload of books but until you join book club or write book reviews you are not part of "reader culture"" - makes a v dodgy active/passive distinction but even if you take it, it wld be enough to prove mordy's point, as there are obv all sorts of oddball heterodox games being made, funded & reviewed

mb we can talk about small g-gamers so that ppl can keep their handy pejoratives. I think underlying mordy's point is that the current dominant mainstream culture is younger than the term it's claiming & will be outlived by it, so it's questionable to cede it temporarily

ogmor, Friday, 5 September 2014 12:45 (three years ago) Permalink

this all seems strange to me because I don't play (and have never played) first person shooters, which is where I think the sexist/racist bullshit resides mostly? like there is this parallel world of video games where people care about war shooters and the like, and I can tell from tv ads that those games are really crazy popular and cash cows...but then I read one of the "the end of gamers" linked here & was confused.

& I play a lot of video games! & have for like 30+ years.

I dunno I watch my kids play tons of games too & it's all minecraft & puzzle games & it's not just my influence there, that's what the kids at school play. maybe when my boy hits 14-16 he'll want to play call of duty or whatever but I dunno, that just seems like a dumb subculture to me.

Euler, Friday, 5 September 2014 13:05 (three years ago) Permalink

I have an idea

Why don't we call all the non-FPS playing, mechanical keyboard not-having, daily showering, plaid-wearing gamers "indie gamers"

Not only could you separate yourself from the bad gamers but you could also reclaim and rehabilitate the word 'indie'

, Friday, 5 September 2014 13:12 (three years ago) Permalink

yeah I mean I get that fps gaming, especially online fps, is a cesspool, and that it's a cash thing, not trying to be coy here

but indie? I guess nowadays that's right, but I was in high school when Wolfenstein came out so I'd already been gaming a long time, and that shit was new. and then I never got a playstation or playstation 2 so I missed when that stuff became mainstream. this is just me being old I get this.

Euler, Friday, 5 September 2014 13:16 (three years ago) Permalink

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

⌘-B (mh), Friday, 5 September 2014 13:17 (three years ago) Permalink

pretty much

Euler, Friday, 5 September 2014 13:18 (three years ago) Permalink

maybe there are sexxxay minecraft mods, I don't want to know

Euler, Friday, 5 September 2014 13:18 (three years ago) Permalink

I don't want to call myself a gamer

― you must have me confused with my stacked as fuck and imposing friend (jjjusten), Friday, September 5, 2014 12:02 AM (9 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Your entire argument has been that it is not a loaded term that most video game consumers don't really relate to

btw most video game consumers are women over 30 or w/e, who just play some games

do I do not think your world is representative, and the question you should ask is "are you a gamer, as in a term of self-identification"

― ⌘-B (mh), Friday, September 5, 2014 12:10 AM (9 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yuuup most people just play some games but its not their lifestyle

lag∞n, Friday, 5 September 2014 13:27 (three years ago) Permalink

very indicative of modern life when people strongly identify with their chosen form of entertainment

lag∞n, Friday, 5 September 2014 13:28 (three years ago) Permalink

this all seems strange to me because I don't play (and have never played) first person shooters, which is where I think the sexist/racist bullshit resides mostly?

http://boingboing.net/2012/02/29/meet-the-sexist-racist-pigs-o.html

stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Friday, 5 September 2014 13:29 (three years ago) Permalink

Perhaps weirdly, I'm on Mordy's side here. I don't think he's arguing that the "gamer" misogynistwhitemen demographic doesn't exist, or isn't a vocal and visible problem. I read his argument more that people who play games passionately, and spend craploads of money and time on them, are already diverse. This shifts the viewpoint from "gamers (for whom read misogynist white men) are under attack from evil outside forces" to "gamers (for whom read everyone who cares about games) are sick of being represented by misogynist white men and are attempting to represent themselves more fairly, in both games and the surrounding culture". It's positioning Sarkeesian et al as an immanent critique rather than an extrinsic critic.

emil.y, Friday, 5 September 2014 13:30 (three years ago) Permalink

oh yeah, fighting games, I played those now & then, and yeah, they're also sexist racist shitpits

but yeah, video game playing as a ~~lifestyle~~ is so weird to me

Euler, Friday, 5 September 2014 13:31 (three years ago) Permalink

Also my WoW guild split in half because the players recruited to push us through content chased most of the women out of the guild via unending harassment, culminating in a bunch of horrible shit said to one of the founding members including the accusation that the only reason she was in the guild in the first place was because her boyfriend was our main tank. (Note: the accusation was not put nearly this nicely.)

Just constant belittling, n-bombs, insults, unwanted advances... raids became interminable and I was on the verge of quitting when the ppl I liked broke off and invited me into their own smaller guild. AND, the guys behind this were nowhere near the worst people on the server.

stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Friday, 5 September 2014 13:38 (three years ago) Permalink

shaking my head at the fact I'm linking to metacritic as an example of anything, but:
http://www.metacritic.com/browse/games/release-date/new-releases/all/date

this is where it gets to the point that, perception-wise, video games as a reviewed product swing harshly toward action RPGs, first-person shooters, racing, and third-person adventure games of the GTA variety. there are roughly eight zillion people playing Peggle and what-have-you, but it's criminally underrepresented. maybe because people don't need to read about Peggle.

really glad DJP mentioned WoW because I really think it's a game that has one of the most diverse player bases, but there are still mobs of trashkids

⌘-B (mh), Friday, 5 September 2014 13:40 (three years ago) Permalink

I think the problem is that the word has become loaded even among people who play games, because the maladjusted types that perpetuate the problem overwhelm the stereotype

fwiw I think the largest distinct Diablo 3 demographic I've run into is dads (and occasional moms) who play on weeknights after their kids go to bed

⌘-B (mh), Friday, 5 September 2014 13:45 (three years ago) Permalink

(the dude who spent most of his time creeping on every female member of the guild also is responsible for my favorite WoW story ever, when he announced in the middle of a raid that he was making a run for the border and took off for 35 minutes to go to Taco Bell so there were some bright spots to all of this)

stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Friday, 5 September 2014 13:49 (three years ago) Permalink

lol, I think you have mentioned that before

Diablo 3 is more "brb smoking a bowl" which I have seen people say multiple times

⌘-B (mh), Friday, 5 September 2014 13:57 (three years ago) Permalink

as a former point'n'click enthusiast and occasional IF dabbler I was all excited about the words "adventure games" there in mh's list of most-reviewed genres and then saw "of the GTA variety".

I like Mordy's point that lots of different people play games, lots of different people have always played games, and it's not cool to let the meatheads claim to be the entire culture through assholic gatekeeping while simultaneously saying "we don't all do x, we're just people who play games".

On the other hand I get the "foodie" distinction too. But "gamer" sounds so much like the only word for someone who plays games, as I'm p. sure in the past if anyone asked if I was a gamer I might well have gone "sure, yes, I play video games, I totally love god sims and 2d platformers", so I don't really get the insistence that the word has always been so obviously irredeemable, just walk away, this place is not a place of honor.

Not that there's a neutral word for "foodie" either, but playing games has not yet reached the universality of "someone who eats and has preferences about what they eat". Maybe we're getting that way, though; my gran sure likes her Mahjongg solitaire.

club mate martyr (a passing spacecadet), Friday, 5 September 2014 14:28 (three years ago) Permalink

semper games

ciderpress, Friday, 5 September 2014 14:33 (three years ago) Permalink

It'd be worth going to Taco Bell just to use that line.

jmm, Friday, 5 September 2014 14:39 (three years ago) Permalink

The perplexed chatter on Ventrilo was priceless.

stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Friday, 5 September 2014 14:40 (three years ago) Permalink

i wish i could remember the magazine i once bought in a train station that was literally Maxim for video games. i think the rating system was on a scale from zero to having a beer and a woman sitting on your lap. odious shit. like i know they didn't invent Duke Nukem, but there's no reason they had to identify so hard w/ the most juvenile part of the industry when franchises like civilization + sim city has spanned the history of video games.

― Mordy, Thursday, September 4, 2014 10:57 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

you mean the shortlived Incite? what a pile of shit that was

http://www.oldgamemags.com/files/magazines/incite/Incite-03.jpg

rap steve (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 5 September 2014 14:53 (three years ago) Permalink

btw this is something i wrote back in february before this whole shitshow, it's kinda my thoughts

other than that i try to not leave a breadcrumb trail for these fuck internet detectives so i mostly don't post on ILG, stay tuned for an epic 77-only behind the scenes thread when i finally quit this racket

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2014/02/20/the-changing-definition-of-39-gamer-39.aspx

rap steve (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 5 September 2014 14:57 (three years ago) Permalink

meet-the-sexist-racist-pigs-o.html

smithery loves cuntery (wins), Friday, 5 September 2014 15:09 (three years ago) Permalink

This may be the first time in the history of video games that someone had said that removing sexual harassment is ethically unjust.

the naive world of 2012

⌘-B (mh), Friday, 5 September 2014 15:40 (three years ago) Permalink

sh@kedown your pt about the casual mobile games (the silent majority of games?) being closest to the ancient atari and arcade units in terms of pure ludic experience with not much narrative hook at all is really perceptive

goole, Friday, 5 September 2014 15:59 (three years ago) Permalink

gaming media has been creating bro gamer culture forever. i remember reading the most sexist shit in gaming magazines when i was growing up.

I bought at least one games-oriented computer magazine every month from about 1989 to 1999 and the first few years seemed like a gentler time -- though it may just have passed me by, as I was too young/naive to pick up anything risqué and may have shrugged off "gurls r dumb" jokes with "huh yeah other girls are dumb, just as well I'm not like them" etc, ugh @ me.

(and legend suggests platform rivalry was already a thing in the 80s, although I don't remember it much among my friends or in magazines: mainly just envy of other formats' fancier screenshots, excitement to go round to your friend with a different computer and a whole different set of games, etc. Spectrum vs C64 gets talked about as a rivalry but I didn't really hear any until my friend's brothers arguing Nintendo vs Sega circa 1991.)

In the mid/late-90s I began to feel alienated by token pictures of hot women on the cover of "games and general interest computing" mag PC Format, increasingly laddish/aggressive humour in the games-only mags, etc, but the echo chamber of internet comments, forums and online gaming banter do seem to have made everything a billion times worse. On the other hand the internet allows me to hear about and find indie games and not-very-gamey thinkpiece games etc, so swings and roundabouts.

tl;dr curious what the female editor of my 80s favourite Your Sinclair magazine thinks of "gamergate". Fairly sure she got dismissed by jerk game marketers and crepey letters back then but I'm guessing nothing like the death threats and men's rights warriors of now?

club mate martyr (a passing spacecadet), Friday, 5 September 2014 16:05 (three years ago) Permalink

it's worth noting that game journalism would not exist without the efforts of Joyce Worley, who along with Arne Katz and the late Bill Kunkel, founded and created Electronic Games magazine

rap steve (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 5 September 2014 16:08 (three years ago) Permalink

i remember Speccy vs C64 being pretty real in that sports fan banter kind of way

games magazines of the early 80s are awesome because they mostly read like amateur newsletters written by people who are baffled by this new thing they've been asked to write about, reviewers telling you the game is in colour or features machine code

Daphnis Celesta, Friday, 5 September 2014 16:09 (three years ago) Permalink

oh and i guess Amiga vs ST probably started in the late 80s as a thing?

Daphnis Celesta, Friday, 5 September 2014 16:10 (three years ago) Permalink

well duh - gaming media has been creating bro gamer culture forever. i remember reading the most sexist shit in gaming magazines when i was growing up. they taught that culture to their readership.

― Mordy, Thursday, September 4, 2014 10:55 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i don't think this is true. the scene appears to be occurring on social media now: the anti-feminist youtube personalities, the twitter harassment waves, the centrality of 4chan. gaming media outlets really seem like a step behind this stuff. as if a young man of today needed a magazine to teach him how to be sexist in the first place. what is terrible about this culture is self-emergent

fwiw i don't think 'bro' has the right connotations either, with its air of frats and jockiness. "gamer" writ small thinks of himself as a put-upon nerd right? the aggression seems anti-bro if anything. bros get what they want! they don't need games!

goole, Friday, 5 September 2014 16:12 (three years ago) Permalink

That would be where the irony is re: last paragraph?

, Friday, 5 September 2014 16:14 (three years ago) Permalink

Growing up it was already Nintendo v. Sega (played out on bloodless/bloody versions of Mortal Kombat) and then Nintendo v. Sony (where it wasn't just cartridge vs. CD and load times but also about "kiddie", wholesome games vs. the gorey and murderous games like Twisted Metal)

, Friday, 5 September 2014 16:16 (three years ago) Permalink

games magazines of the early 80s are awesome because they mostly read like amateur newsletters written by people who are baffled by this new thing they've been asked to write about, reviewers telling you the game is in colour or features machine code

― Daphnis Celesta, Friday, September 5, 2014 11:09 AM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i interviewed kunkel before he died and katz. they were from a different world, the primordial stew from which "nerd culture" emerged...they all attended the first sci-fi conventions that started happening in the late 60s, basically a scene that sounds like it was a slightly nerdier outgrowth of hippie, tellingly their first publication was a general interest sci-fi/culture/music zine named Dead Flowers after the Rolling Stones song....they all three had a revelatory experience in Las Vegas at an early arcade and decided to cover this new "hobby", which was then just that not an "industry"

rap steve (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 5 September 2014 16:16 (three years ago) Permalink

yeah i get the vibe now looking back on some of the magazines i read as a kid that a lot of the journalists were hobbyists who weren't specifically into "games" at all, and that stuff gradually expanded until it grew into its own magazines and a lot of the general "PC User" stuff slowly died

Daphnis Celesta, Friday, 5 September 2014 16:18 (three years ago) Permalink

nice piece m@tt and it hits on a key point most of us seem to be dancing around: if everyone is a gamer (which more or less 70% of the population is if you want to go by the "if you play an electronic game on your phone, tv, tablet, console you are a gamer" definition) then we are all gamers even if we don't self identify... so why do we need the definition? Who the hell identifies as a "TV Viewer" or "Movie Watcher"?

The waters around "gamer" are so poisoned from thirty or more years of predominantly chauvinistic and jingoistic marketing rhetoric that it seems to me only the most sophistic of views could justify keeping it around as a desirable self-identity for most people. (Some) games evolved, (some) gamer culture did too - but the monolithic, multi-billion dollar murder simulator racket retains primary ownership. They can have it; I'm happy to secede.

the other song about butts in the top 5 (forksclovetofu), Friday, 5 September 2014 16:18 (three years ago) Permalink

a scene that sounds like it was a slightly nerdier outgrowth of hippie

growing up, my best friend's dad was a dude like this, super fascinating scene. early rennaissance fairs, tolkien fandom, gary gygax, SSI games, the macintosh, underground comix, branching into older game enthusiasms like poker and chess which have their own crazy ancient subcultures and traditions of course

goole, Friday, 5 September 2014 16:22 (three years ago) Permalink

These youtube/4chan gamer dudes strike me as elliott rodgers types more than bro.

LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Friday, 5 September 2014 16:24 (three years ago) Permalink

u.m.sh@kedown I did not know about Joyce Worley, thanks! also I liked your article

DC I guess I was just too young then, my two best friends aged 8 had different 8-bit micros from me/each other but I just remember being like "cool, I can play games which don't exist on the Speccy". considered mentioning Amiga vs ST but my post was already rather long and Eurocentric... (yes, Atari and Commodore weren't European but AFAIK their machines were bought in much greater %s if not absolute numbers outside the Apple-then-console-dominated US)

I guess I came to Spectrum magazines when that "type-in listings for post-teenage hobbyists who may own or be considering buying multiple computers" era had mostly given way to "games magazine for format partisans" but yes, I do like that vibe in the earlier mags. Special mention for games where you can't press Break and see the BASIC listing!

club mate martyr (a passing spacecadet), Friday, 5 September 2014 16:24 (three years ago) Permalink

special mention for 2 hours of typing in a ZX81 game only for the ram pack to wobble and wipe the whole thing :\

Daphnis Celesta, Friday, 5 September 2014 16:27 (three years ago) Permalink

^^^ not a gamer

Daphnis Celesta, Friday, 5 September 2014 16:27 (three years ago) Permalink

the aggression seems anti-bro if anything. bros get what they want! they don't need games!

― goole, Friday, September 5, 2014 11:12 AM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

That would be where the irony is re: last paragraph?

― 龜, Friday, September 5, 2014 11:14 AM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

right well yeah

aside from the misogyny i read a real discomfort with the codes of adult life in general from these dudes. the accusation that quinn had sex with a writer from kotaku for press has somewhat broadened into a general complaint that indie game developers and games journalists all... know each other. "things are happening that i don't understand because people being social in ways i can't access!"

flip thru enough twitter convos and you can sense the fear that there is some kind of SJW mafia that is not only going to critique games but determine what they will be

goole, Friday, 5 September 2014 16:29 (three years ago) Permalink

i was gonna say it's interesting that an overtly about-sex game like leisure suit larry has disappeared from the scene. but then there's internet porn now.

goole, Friday, 5 September 2014 16:31 (three years ago) Permalink

there's still a small but alive community around "adult interactive fiction" and other sex-oriented games

Daphnis Celesta, Friday, 5 September 2014 16:32 (three years ago) Permalink

^^^ totally shagged Arianne

stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Friday, 5 September 2014 16:33 (three years ago) Permalink

a guy's got to have some company sometimes :/

Daphnis Celesta, Friday, 5 September 2014 16:34 (three years ago) Permalink

growing up, my best friend's dad was a dude like this, super fascinating scene. early rennaissance fairs, tolkien fandom, gary gygax, SSI games, the macintosh, underground comix, branching into older game enthusiasms like poker and chess which have their own crazy ancient subcultures and traditions of course

― goole, Friday, September 5, 2014 11:22 AM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah totally, throw in Omni Magazine, the old Games magazine which was more like mind puzzles and shit

i mean the whole tech industry from steve jobs (whose co-employees at atari called him "chariman mao" behind his back and complained about his b.o.) on down is really an outgrowth of late hippie

rap steve (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 5 September 2014 16:34 (three years ago) Permalink

i would think the root of a lot of this DIY / headshop / meganerd stuff is Whole Earth Catalog, no?

the other song about butts in the top 5 (forksclovetofu), Friday, 5 September 2014 16:53 (three years ago) Permalink

we had a copy floating around the house iirc

the other song about butts in the top 5 (forksclovetofu), Friday, 5 September 2014 16:53 (three years ago) Permalink

still fun to flip through: http://www.wholeearth.com/back-issues.php

the other song about butts in the top 5 (forksclovetofu), Friday, 5 September 2014 16:54 (three years ago) Permalink

Ayo forks if you want my mags ilx mail me otherwise I'll recycle them in a week

, Friday, 5 September 2014 16:56 (three years ago) Permalink

I did! Did you not get my mail? I'll try again.

the other song about butts in the top 5 (forksclovetofu), Friday, 5 September 2014 16:57 (three years ago) Permalink

Fb me then

, Friday, 5 September 2014 16:58 (three years ago) Permalink

lemme know if you just got that

the other song about butts in the top 5 (forksclovetofu), Friday, 5 September 2014 17:01 (three years ago) Permalink

'Not that there's a neutral word for "foodie" either'

hungry

Philip Nunez, Friday, 5 September 2014 17:05 (three years ago) Permalink

Got it xp

, Friday, 5 September 2014 17:36 (three years ago) Permalink

gracias!

the other song about butts in the top 5 (forksclovetofu), Friday, 5 September 2014 18:37 (three years ago) Permalink

it's amazing how many different aspects of this i couldn't give a fucking shit about

― Daphnis Celesta, Friday, September 5, 2014 9:11 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ienjoyhotdogs, Friday, 5 September 2014 21:16 (three years ago) Permalink

so I guess Zoe Quinn had saved loads of IRC chatlogs of tragic dogfuckers orchestrating the gamergate and discussing trying to hack her, and now a lot of part-time dogfuckers are having to go "...oh..." and back away slowly?

Dadjokke (Sgt. Biscuits), Saturday, 6 September 2014 13:22 (three years ago) Permalink

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bw1grxjCAAAYEQV.png:large

got a pretty intense wave of pathos washing over me right now

Dadjokke (Sgt. Biscuits), Saturday, 6 September 2014 13:33 (three years ago) Permalink

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.858347-Zoe-Quinn-and-the-surrounding-controversy?page=563

just in case you lose track of how these people think, members of the "cause" rationalize this too. Also this weird hangup about "the media" - who? What?

So, am I the only one not seeing the big deal about Zoe's IRC 'leaks'. I mean it was a public IRC that anyone could join and there was nothing bad about anything she uploaded.

Doctor Casino, Saturday, 6 September 2014 14:51 (three years ago) Permalink

Why are they saying we've to hate on a guy that got cheated on at least five times and forced into a nervous breakdown by his ex?

Doctor Casino, Saturday, 6 September 2014 14:58 (three years ago) Permalink

These youtube/4chan gamer dudes strike me as elliott rodgers types more than bro.

― LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Friday, September 5, 2014 12:24 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lot of nerds being labeled bro these days and its just not right not everyone u dont like exists on the hipster-bro continuum

lag∞n, Saturday, 6 September 2014 15:24 (three years ago) Permalink

Yeah, I agree with that. Many of the games are bro-y in various evident ways, and many of them (esp. shooters) are popular with bros, but it's not 1:1 at all, and I suspect a lot of the really distorted "never been out of the house" circles have relatively few bros in the room. But I really don't know. Like I figure WoW and Final Fantasy are less bro-y fandoms than CoD and God of War, right?

Doctor Casino, Saturday, 6 September 2014 15:38 (three years ago) Permalink

yeah it's kinda lol that these punks want recognition for their easily purchased AAA widely-advertised blando gaming habits; can you even beat hell in cave story+ bro?

Mordy, Saturday, 6 September 2014 15:57 (three years ago) Permalink

If the internet has taught us anything it's that nerds are worse than jocks when given the chance

rap steve (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, 6 September 2014 16:09 (three years ago) Permalink

Thing is that jock types are generally dbags for a brief bout of junior high and into college and then they become normal dudes who don't even remember the people they pushed into lockers for better or for worse, whereas a lot of these nerds just spend the rest of their lives post-high school in a state of simmering hate and nursing grudges against a whole type of person that didn't "get" them back in the day or fucked with them.

LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Saturday, 6 September 2014 16:30 (three years ago) Permalink

"They thought the people who will die 500 times and keep getting back up in Dark Souls would fold" is priceless, so good it kinda has to be a parody.

Doctor Casino, Saturday, 6 September 2014 16:31 (three years ago) Permalink

That's the beauty of 4chan, you'll never know!

Nhex, Saturday, 6 September 2014 16:42 (three years ago) Permalink

If the internet has taught us anything it's that nerds are worse than jocks when given the chance

OTM to the nth.

Rand McNulty (Jon Lewis), Saturday, 6 September 2014 16:47 (three years ago) Permalink

Yah also there are different jock types like some really great athlete ones that are super popular but also academically high achieving could be really nice to everyone, I think due to total self confidence and genial nature they have nothing to prove as having been totally successful on every level of high school from football to inevitably good looking and excellent student gf so feel no need to tear down others lower on totem pole. More borderline or dumb ones are more dangerous at time but tend as you say to verge into khaki dadhood and are probably chill dudes in their cul De sac

rap steve (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, 6 September 2014 17:14 (three years ago) Permalink

Also it should be said that lots of these nerd types really just despise and look down on pretty much everyone, and there's a partic strain of pseudo intellectual bs that differentiates them from actual "smart kids" and continues into adulthood.

LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Saturday, 6 September 2014 17:27 (three years ago) Permalink

where do mark cuban and steve ballmer fall on the nerd/jock/chillbro continuum?

Philip Nunez, Saturday, 6 September 2014 17:35 (three years ago) Permalink

Steve Ballmer is by most accounts just a spectacularly excitable weirdo

Spirit of Match Game '76 (silby), Saturday, 6 September 2014 17:40 (three years ago) Permalink

Yeah, you guys are talking shit about nerds vs jocks. What has happened here is that you're far closer to nerds, so you see every pockmark and dribble of sweat, whereas the jocks are off wayyyy over there and they look a whole lot better to you right now. If you like I can balance it out by posting all the craploads of stories about American college jocks drugging and raping women and getting away with it. But I don't think anyone really wants that.

emil.y, Saturday, 6 September 2014 17:44 (three years ago) Permalink

Sadly misogyny is EVERYWHERE. It's not special to nerds or gamers.

emil.y, Saturday, 6 September 2014 17:45 (three years ago) Permalink

Yeah, let's not become Captain Save-a-Jock - good point. I do think it might be useful to identify the specific strategies, channels, and rhetorical guises misogyny takes in these different circles though - your fedora-wearing, arms-crossed internet cynic nerd rationalizes misogyny through very different channels and rhetoric IME.

Doctor Casino, Saturday, 6 September 2014 17:59 (three years ago) Permalink

red bull seems to be doing its part to bridge the nerd/jock/bro divide:
http://www.redbullmusicacademy.jp/jp/magazine/digging-in-the-carts

Philip Nunez, Saturday, 6 September 2014 18:13 (three years ago) Permalink

I'm actually very close w people who were jocks. And nerds. I also have a very specific window into things here, which is first hand reading all the garbage emails and rape threats received by my female coworkers so yeah maybe I see it a certain way....

rap steve (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, 6 September 2014 18:32 (three years ago) Permalink

Or to say don't doubt that for every Zoe Quinn or Anita S there are 20 women who don't go public w stuff in games

rap steve (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, 6 September 2014 18:33 (three years ago) Permalink

Um, is that addressed toward me? Because believe me, I don't doubt it. Nothing in what I said implied that I doubted it. I have no idea how you could possibly infer that I doubted it.

emil.y, Saturday, 6 September 2014 18:35 (three years ago) Permalink

Sorry u too many #notallgamers & #notyourshield crap this week, sincere apologies, I almost get used to things going aggro from the jump

rap steve (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, 6 September 2014 18:45 (three years ago) Permalink

Oh, no, the shit coming from the gaming world is very real and pernicious, obv. I'm just saying that there's real and pernicious shit everywhere else, too. It's all horribly, horribly depressing.

emil.y, Saturday, 6 September 2014 18:56 (three years ago) Permalink

in england, certainly, the sort of people who will own, say, 'gears of war' swag, don't, i think, map onto either 'jocks' or 'nerds'. they might map onto 'people who have conversations about mobile phones'. i wonder how they map onto 'metal listeners'

i think the intensification of misogynist content in games rn is a bit like the intensification of misogynist content in 'rock' music over the period '70-'89, maybe, both seem an artifact of the balkanisation of a previously monolithic (or possible to treat as monolithic) audience

unclear perhaps whether god of war is at the 'virgin killer' or 'appetite for destruction' end of that cycle

♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Saturday, 6 September 2014 19:03 (three years ago) Permalink

i get the sense that jocks today are de facto gamers because madden etc... is part of their training protocols now. maybe in england it's different because there are no rowing simulators. fifa though...

Philip Nunez, Saturday, 6 September 2014 19:27 (three years ago) Permalink

these people wd play iss pro

♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Saturday, 6 September 2014 19:51 (three years ago) Permalink

not sure if that's accurate tbf

♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Saturday, 6 September 2014 19:52 (three years ago) Permalink

is there a video on the internet of milhouse shouting 'im not a nerd - nerds are smart!' that i could link here

Lamp, Saturday, 6 September 2014 20:28 (three years ago) Permalink

If the internet has taught us anything it's that nerds are worse than jocks when given the chance

― rap steve (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, September 6, 2014 12:09 PM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

never give nerds a chance my motto

lag∞n, Saturday, 6 September 2014 20:33 (three years ago) Permalink

Also it should be said that lots of these nerd types really just despise and look down on pretty much everyone, and there's a partic strain of pseudo intellectual bs that differentiates them from actual "smart kids" and continues into adulthood.

― LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Saturday, September 6, 2014 1:27 PM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah i feel like this is the defining characteristic of nerd culture thinking youre better than everyone cause youre smart, thinking being smart is the only thing that matters, defining intelligence so narrowly as to be meaningless

lag∞n, Saturday, 6 September 2014 20:39 (three years ago) Permalink

irks me how nerds are always portrayed as gentle inquisitive souls when theyre often so completely arrogant, not that gentle inquisitive nerds dont exist

lag∞n, Saturday, 6 September 2014 20:44 (three years ago) Permalink

Gentle inquisitive nerds rock, but don't tend to have very popular YouTube channels.

Andrew Farrell, Saturday, 6 September 2014 20:53 (three years ago) Permalink

Thought this was good:

http://deathofgamergate.tumblr.com/

EZ Snappin, Monday, 8 September 2014 14:53 (three years ago) Permalink

That is very good

also lol @ GamerGate, now and forever

stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Monday, 8 September 2014 15:19 (three years ago) Permalink

The tumblr is very good - one thing that it largely misses though is the collection of bugs under this uncovered rock, people who are convinced that 'SJWs' have been involved in a protracted effort to infiltrate games journalism and now the, er, ivory towers of indie games (?!?) because they hate gamers and they have as their goal the elimination of the gamer identity and the ruining of games by 'forcing' them to change from the good old days (Sarkeesian is far more of a hate-figure for this mob than Quinn).

I'm aware of the very large gulf of analogy, but the tone of the language actually reminds me of 30s German anti-semitism: These people are responsible for the fact that it's not the days of glory any more, these people are invisibly in cliques in positions of influence (and can only be there for subterfuge as they definitionally can't share the same identity as you and I), these people must be fought against at all costs.

Andrew Farrell, Monday, 8 September 2014 16:00 (three years ago) Permalink

http://cdn.broscience.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/nerd1.jpg

am0n, Monday, 8 September 2014 16:23 (three years ago) Permalink

The floor recognises the representative from broscience.org

Andrew Farrell, Monday, 8 September 2014 16:29 (three years ago) Permalink

I sort of understand where Mordy's coming from with the desire to hold onto a flag you find worthwhile even as its been poisoned by others, but having fought that fight myself over a few different flags I'd argue it's almost never worth it--you wind up backing into a corner splitting hairs and spluttering that you're not Like Those People, and no true scotsman would ever be.

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Monday, 8 September 2014 16:49 (three years ago) Permalink

http://i.imgur.com/ZWKH45N.png

lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 16:50 (three years ago) Permalink

I'm aware of the very large gulf of analogy, but the tone of the language actually reminds me of 30s German anti-semitism:

this exact thought came to me as well.

also on the level of "we need to keep an eye on these people"

goole, Monday, 8 September 2014 16:51 (three years ago) Permalink

whats it like to fight over a flag

am0n, Monday, 8 September 2014 16:53 (three years ago) Permalink

cramped i wd imagine

Daphnis Celesta, Monday, 8 September 2014 16:54 (three years ago) Permalink

capture the flag is one of my all time favorite games

lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 16:54 (three years ago) Permalink

http://jeff.rainbow-100.com/other/dosgames/21-1.png

^ more accepted in this form of media

am0n, Monday, 8 September 2014 16:56 (three years ago) Permalink

h00s, i was thinking about this a bit over the weekend. it was particularly funny when someone mentioned Zionism as a metaphor for gamers itt bc obv that's a much more complex/controversial flag under which i fight. i just don't think it makes sense to abdicate identity markers instead of reclaim them - both bc ceding the ground leads to unintentional results (like only terrible ppl representing a cause you might otherwise believe in) as well as personal loss. idk.

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 16:59 (three years ago) Permalink

i can think of like a dozen other examples of this - i'm not about to toss away the NFL bc of concussions and Ray Rice and Incognito etc either

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:01 (three years ago) Permalink

i wanna make a free online game about flag-burning, anyone kno flash

am0n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:04 (three years ago) Permalink

one thing imo strongly identifying as a gamer is kinda frivolous and consumerist, like if thats yr thing in life u might not be doing that good

lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:09 (three years ago) Permalink

i don't necessarily think being a 'gamer' (at least how i've understood it) is frivolous and consumerist. yes, it can be, if you organize your identity around your game purchases. but you could be very active in, eg, the IF community, write your own games, play other ppl's games, write reviews + give feedback, and that's a totally different emphasis. or like hardcore board gamers or war gamers, i've never thought of them as particularly consumerist (even tho you do have to buy the games in those cases, but that's not what distinguishes the hobby).

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:15 (three years ago) Permalink

yeah idk theres just something very indicative of contemporary dysfunction in strongly identifying with entertainment imo

lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:17 (three years ago) Permalink

more so than identifying w/ cinema, or literature?

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:17 (three years ago) Permalink

pretty similar prob but im sure some differences cld be teased out

lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:19 (three years ago) Permalink

if you write your own games i give you a pass but im sure thats less than like .01% of gamers

lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:19 (three years ago) Permalink

its consumerist but also involves tech-condescension and virtual competition. its like a perfect storm for the alpha nerd supermen

am0n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:20 (three years ago) Permalink

i'm v. sympathetic to the idea that capitalism has basically totally subsumed/co-opted all these creative endeavors, but i still believe (and continue to identify as a music fan, film fan, lit fan, game fan, etc) and search out in these "entertainments" resistance or at least the opiate-void.

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:21 (three years ago) Permalink

i've written my own games, tho not in many years. generally i believe that creation is the best way to resist the hegemony but also i'm very lazy

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:21 (three years ago) Permalink

feel like the game aspect reduces the ability to convey profundity that movies and books sometimes have but still being a reader or a movie buff who cares

lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:22 (three years ago) Permalink

i mean im both of those things and i even love games tho not so much video ones but i dont build my identity around any of that

lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:23 (three years ago) Permalink

depends on the game. i've had profound experiences in games that are irreproducible in lit + film (in civ, in dwarf fortress), not to mention the kind of ludic expressivity that other mediums can't capture - the participatory/improv element.

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:24 (three years ago) Permalink

what does a lag00n build his identity around?

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:24 (three years ago) Permalink

*bro-hoof*

am0n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:25 (three years ago) Permalink

free spirit. lucid dreamer. citizen of the world. bacon fanatic. uncle.

lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:25 (three years ago) Permalink

video game lifestyle is kinda like the heroin lifestyle only fatter

example (crüt), Monday, 8 September 2014 17:27 (three years ago) Permalink

i should clarify that 'gamer' is not at the top of my list of identifications. my social/relationship and religious affiliations take precedence. but considering how many hours i spend gaming in my life it would be silly i think to say that it had nothing to do w/ how i see myself.

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:27 (three years ago) Permalink

depends on the game. i've had profound experiences in games that are irreproducible in lit + film (in civ, in dwarf fortress), not to mention the kind of ludic expressivity that other mediums can't capture - the participatory/improv element.

― Mordy, Monday, September 8, 2014 1:24 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah im open to the idea that games can convey profundity, its a p interesting question, def a different profundity than books or movies, tho i do think the losing/winning binary game aspect tends to hit a different part of the mind

lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:28 (three years ago) Permalink

like chess can be profound, right? i'm not a huge chess guy but i've played games that - if not profound - at least felt deeply immersive + enriching.

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:29 (three years ago) Permalink

it can def be very compelling and satisfying but idk if it reveals deep truths

lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:31 (three years ago) Permalink

mulling that over i'm not sure we cd agree on a version of deep truth that wd include other art-forms but exclude all games?

Daphnis Celesta, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:33 (three years ago) Permalink

maybe the deepest game would be one you lose every time

lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:34 (three years ago) Permalink

in the rough mental schemata i've built gaming in general as associated w/ game theory as the kind of deep truth / philosophical deep structure. also there's a lot of writing about how games access 'playing' as like a fundamental, primordial human drive. this is stuff i used to think about a lot in undergrad (and read about a lot - there is some decent academic work in the field lately) but haven't really dealt w/ as of late.

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:34 (three years ago) Permalink

maybe the deepest game would be one you lose every time

oh so Dark Souls or Ninja Gaiden

stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Monday, 8 September 2014 17:35 (three years ago) Permalink

nethack

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:35 (three years ago) Permalink

ha yeah, that or Tetris

stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Monday, 8 September 2014 17:36 (three years ago) Permalink

sure there are indie games that deliberately do that kind of thing but feel like they fail as games

Daphnis Celesta, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:36 (three years ago) Permalink

yup

lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:37 (three years ago) Permalink

in the same way that most people won't ride for clumsy didacticism in other artforms

Daphnis Celesta, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:37 (three years ago) Permalink

i'm not sure what you're responding to now, NV, but like tetris + super hexagon are to me the purest distillation of video games and also the most personally satisfying. my proudest (llol) gaming accomplishment of the last year or so was "beating" super hexagon.

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:38 (three years ago) Permalink

in the rough mental schemata i've built gaming in general as associated w/ game theory as the kind of deep truth / philosophical deep structure. also there's a lot of writing about how games access 'playing' as like a fundamental, primordial human drive. this is stuff i used to think about a lot in undergrad (and read about a lot - there is some decent academic work in the field lately) but haven't really dealt w/ as of late.

― Mordy, Monday, September 8, 2014 1:34 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

sure games activate deep human things but do they have anything to say about it or are they just pushing yr buttons over and over

lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:38 (three years ago) Permalink

spelunky

am0n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:40 (three years ago) Permalink

sorry for obscurity Mordy i was contemplating those kind of "art" games that deliberately subvert ludic pleasure to make some comment on something, maybe on play itself

Daphnis Celesta, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:41 (three years ago) Permalink

like some feted but ultimately kinda shitty IF has done

Daphnis Celesta, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:41 (three years ago) Permalink

we've definitely done some "games as art" threads elsewhere btw just in case anybody is unhappy about derail

Daphnis Celesta, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:42 (three years ago) Permalink

i'd want to talk about specific IF (or other) games just bc i think some are tremendous works (galatea, slouching towards bedlam, varicella) and some even celebrated works (photopia, curses) are kinda meh.

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:43 (three years ago) Permalink

but yeah, i find games that don't actually let you play very dissatisfying - whether they're Uncharted cut-scene on-rails games, or Gone Home

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:46 (three years ago) Permalink

Photopia is def one i think is a tawdry thing that fails as game whereas yeah your a-list certainly is more successful as playable games that want to create an aesthetic experience

Daphnis Celesta, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:46 (three years ago) Permalink

Conversation has suddenly sped up so I'm probably skipping a lot of other points here, but re: i do think the losing/winning binary game aspect tends to hit a different part of the mind - a lot of games don't use this binary. If you want examples try any sandbox game, and a bunch of IF only counts as having a win condition if you consider yourself as having "won" a book or film when you get to the end of it.

emil.y, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:51 (three years ago) Permalink

you can be an enthusiast (and even a creator) of something in a field without proclaiming an identity around it.
douglas adams probably didn't even have "IF pioneer" on his tombstone.

Philip Nunez, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:52 (three years ago) Permalink

yeah but is it good as a game xp

lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:52 (three years ago) Permalink

douglas adams' IF games are nigh unplayable ime lol, but i'd be surprised if he didn't (and if ppl like adam cadre, emily short, etc don't) see their identities as being somewhat intertwined w/ the games that they design.

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:53 (three years ago) Permalink

And yes, games with non-binary conditions can be fucking awesome as games. I don't even get how this is up for discussion, really.

emil.y, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:55 (three years ago) Permalink

When I think of depth in gaming what comes to mind are certain puzzlers and platformers where one needs to spend a lot of time (or a lot of deaths) experimenting within a geometrical structure and learning its complexities. That to me is when gaming feels deep, when it succeeds in facilitating deep immersion in something highly abstract. I don't know if this counts as 'deep truth' - it's truth as pertaining to some tiny pocket of the universe defined by fixed rules and starting conditions.

jmm, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:56 (three years ago) Permalink

i'm reading this old interview about the hitchhiker's text game he co-wrote and he definitely comes across as more "#1 beatles fan" than "IF dude" even while being pretty excited about the medium
("this is the first game that lies to you!")

Philip Nunez, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:56 (three years ago) Permalink

And yes, games with non-binary conditions can be fucking awesome as games. I don't even get how this is up for discussion, really.

― emil.y, Monday, September 8, 2014 1:55 PM (52 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

well no one seems to play them for one thing

lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:56 (three years ago) Permalink

oops! sorry, i thought for a second we were talking about scott adams. yes, i'm sure douglas adams mostly thought of himself as a fiction author, surely

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:57 (three years ago) Permalink

its ok to identify as a 'gamer', but if your whole identity is based around being a 'gamer' and the subculture that goes around it then it becomes a problem, like a steady diet of pizza and nothing else. e.g. just reading about 'swatting', where live streamers are pranked by calling in a SWAT team on them. what other subculture would come up with such idiocy?

( X '____' )/ (zappi), Monday, 8 September 2014 17:58 (three years ago) Permalink

this is the guy w/ the unplayable IF games:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Adams_(game_designer)

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 17:58 (three years ago) Permalink

i don't think Scott Adams is more unplayable than most of the IF of his era - i.e. stupidly hard to the point of guessing/cheating

Daphnis Celesta, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:00 (three years ago) Permalink

But then, I think arguing the point that "not all games have win conditions" in this context is accepting the idea that "win conditions lead to games being more consumerist than other artforms", as these seem to be the two ideas that lagoon is connecting here. To me that sentence is obviously ridiculous to the point that it sounds like *I* am being ridiculous by framing that as the claim, but I think it's on lagoon to clarify this.

Multiple xposts again.

emil.y, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:01 (three years ago) Permalink

well no one seems to play them for one thing

― lag∞n, Monday, September 8, 2014 6:56 PM (3 minutes ago)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minecraft#Reception

emil.y, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:01 (three years ago) Permalink

win condition = game
no win condition = toy

is how i break it down sort of

Daphnis Celesta, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:02 (three years ago) Permalink

Heyo can I get a Wittgenstein all up in this thread?

emil.y, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:03 (three years ago) Permalink

plz

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:04 (three years ago) Permalink

minecraft has zombies that kill u also u have to get resources in order to build yr stuff, i mean maybe its not exactly a binary and i agree that its different in a lot of it is about the joy of building but it def has a lot of conventional game stuff in there too

lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:05 (three years ago) Permalink

Heyo can I get a Wittgenstein all up in this thread?

― emil.y, Monday, September 8, 2014 2:03 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

oh jeez

lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:05 (three years ago) Permalink

honestly, not finding the "gamer's not a label/identity/enthusiasm/fandom worth using and defending" track to be very convincing or useful. i play games a lot, i love games a lot, i am a gamer. it matters to me

Nhex, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:06 (three years ago) Permalink

why does it matter what cld possibly matter about a game

lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:07 (three years ago) Permalink

its by definition inconsiquental

lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:08 (three years ago) Permalink

What could possibly matter about paintings or songs or novels or sports or films or fashion? I don't know. Nothing. They are non-functional artefacts of culture. They are things that human beings do or create or discuss to fill in time before they die.

emil.y, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:12 (three years ago) Permalink

suspect you dont believe that

lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:13 (three years ago) Permalink

i don't mind conventional game stuff & binary endings at all. i like driving things, shooting guns, leveling up, unlocking shit. these are things the medium does really well. i just don't want to talk to other people who REALLY like doing those things. my taste in games is probably dialed way more toward marquee shooters than the average ILGer. what happened to cozen anyway? that guy had some kind of savant talent for fps, weren't his k/ds always around 3 or something? he wasn't a creepy fuckface as far as i could tell.

we need some post-indie gaming. games as NOT ART. poptimist gaming (even tho there's not much reason at all for optimism about the pop side of gaming.)

i hate to reduce the discussion here but bigging up the art side and the egghead side of games can't be solution to how toxic the hardcore subculture is. i think the casual bullshit side of it needs to be celebrated too.

goole, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:14 (three years ago) Permalink

i like bubble gum but there's no bubble gum fan culture to speak of, and frankly it's quite nice that way (except people are inexplicably buying less bubble gum each year and now it's hard to find bubble gum)

Philip Nunez, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:17 (three years ago) Permalink

http://ignatz.brinkster.net/cimages/joyce.gif

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:18 (three years ago) Permalink

the casual bullshit aspect prob represents a deeper more earnest attempt at finding meaning in games than games as art does

lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:18 (three years ago) Permalink

I am glad Mordy took my ridiculous gaming zionist simile in the spirit it was intended

On a note related to this thread, I was shopping at Target over the weekend and there was a shelf of Doritos in the Xbox games section, right underneath a shelf of games.

⌘-B (mh), Monday, 8 September 2014 18:19 (three years ago) Permalink

it's okay to take your time gaming seriously, but taking yourself as a player of games seriously is indicative of not having much else in your life that needs or merits serious attention. this is why i wouldn't come w/in a mile of self-applying the "gamer" tag. i still feel a little pang of guilt for the time sunk. time is finite. have any of the precious indie games explored that profound reality?? our boy mr. mountain goats just came out w/ a novel, you know? the fuck did i do? i tuned up a bunch of really hot cars in Forza 4 this weekend (among other things, but you get me...)

goole, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:19 (three years ago) Permalink

idk goole, I don't think "gamers" are any weirder than people who are obsessed with the NFL or w/e, with the diff that video games are at least participatory

⌘-B (mh), Monday, 8 September 2014 18:20 (three years ago) Permalink

lagoon's just trolling now as usual

i think the casual bullshit side of it needs to be celebrated too
i agree, but your Candy Crushes and Halos have plenty of exposure out there in major outlets

Nhex, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:20 (three years ago) Permalink

i've never more intensely experienced the void + emptiness of my life as when i hit /played in WoW

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:20 (three years ago) Permalink

oh! I totally wanted to start a CHEWING magazine like in the calvin and hobbes strip.

the running and cycling culture watterson is making fun of is probably in its own way as toxic as gamer culture.

Philip Nunez, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:21 (three years ago) Permalink

omg bicycle culture is horrible

⌘-B (mh), Monday, 8 September 2014 18:22 (three years ago) Permalink

people are super lonely and in desperate search for community and meaning i think is the moral to all of this

lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:23 (three years ago) Permalink

idk goole, I don't think "gamers" are any weirder than people who are obsessed with the NFL or w/e, with the diff that video games are at least participatory

― ⌘-B (mh), Monday, September 8, 2014 1:20 PM (41 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

you all seen the roll tide/war eagle 30for30? a dude poisoned some trees because he was mad a cam newton. frankly i think that's less bad than the shit these 4chan shiteaters have pulled over the past few weeks. it's certainly on the same continuum tho.

goole, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:23 (three years ago) Permalink

mad *AT

goole, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:24 (three years ago) Permalink

lagoon's just trolling now as usual

― Nhex, Monday, September 8, 2014 2:20 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i am a white hat troller tho

lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:25 (three years ago) Permalink

i've been telling myself that for years now

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:25 (three years ago) Permalink

people are super lonely and in desperate search for community and meaning i think is the moral to all of this

― lag∞n, Monday, September 8, 2014 1:23 PM (37 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

let me bring up the similarity to volkist antisemitism again

goole, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:25 (three years ago) Permalink

not all group identifications are similar to volkist antisemitism lol. ppl also join churches because they're lonely it doesn't make them nazis

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:27 (three years ago) Permalink

well...

stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Monday, 8 September 2014 18:28 (three years ago) Permalink

I'm with goole here, the dopamine squirt hamster wheel of casual bullshit gaming is better than all the other gaming imo

, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:28 (three years ago) Permalink

have we come to a conclusion yet re: the relative merits of Henry James vs. ToeJam & Earl

example (crüt), Monday, 8 September 2014 18:28 (three years ago) Permalink

joining a Salsa club: volkist antisemitism y/n?

Daphnis Celesta, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:28 (three years ago) Permalink

not all group identifications are similar to volkist antisemitism lol. ppl also join churches because they're lonely it doesn't make them nazis

― Mordy, Monday, September 8, 2014 1:27 PM (34 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

BUT THIS ONE SURE IS

goole, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:29 (three years ago) Permalink

despite our rugged individualism + abhorrence for group identities, i notice we all post on the nazi-like community board ILX

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:32 (three years ago) Permalink

a board that will last a thousand years

Daphnis Celesta, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:33 (three years ago) Permalink

everything uber alles

lag∞n, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:36 (three years ago) Permalink

Is there a convenient one word appellation for a sports fan? Sportster?

, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:43 (three years ago) Permalink

american male

⌘-B (mh), Monday, 8 September 2014 18:44 (three years ago) Permalink

actually, that's incorrect. although I have been thinking "ugh sports dude" as I swipe left on women's dating profiles where they're wearing sports jerseys :/

⌘-B (mh), Monday, 8 September 2014 18:46 (three years ago) Permalink

"sporto" has fallen out of favor

Nhex, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:46 (three years ago) Permalink

Those are both two words buddy xp

, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:47 (three years ago) Permalink

lol

⌘-B (mh), Monday, 8 September 2014 18:47 (three years ago) Permalink

american male

― ⌘-B (mh), Monday, September 8, 2014 2:44 PM

no way

markers, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:48 (three years ago) Permalink

tbf a lot of them are wearing iowa hawkeyes gear, one of the most inexplicably long-lived college sports fandoms
I have heard tell of hawkeyes-themed bars in chicago and seattle :/

⌘-B (mh), Monday, 8 September 2014 18:49 (three years ago) Permalink

#notallamericanmen

⌘-B (mh), Monday, 8 September 2014 18:49 (three years ago) Permalink

that thing white american males do when they disparage 'white american males'

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:52 (three years ago) Permalink

i don't care about sports. at all.

markers, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:54 (three years ago) Permalink

she's cheer captain and you're on the bleachers?

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 18:55 (three years ago) Permalink

me neither

however, 2/3 of my (white, male, middle-aged) coworkers can speak to each other with some knowledge of the weekend's football games on a monday morning

I am sure geography and economic class have a lot to do with it

the remaining coworker who seems less sports-knowledgeable is fun to talk to about star trek

⌘-B (mh), Monday, 8 September 2014 18:57 (three years ago) Permalink

My office spends a lot of time talking tennis, it's kind of great

stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Monday, 8 September 2014 18:58 (three years ago) Permalink

I wonder if that happens many places outside of the east coast

⌘-B (mh), Monday, 8 September 2014 18:59 (three years ago) Permalink

In the United States, I mean.

⌘-B (mh), Monday, 8 September 2014 19:00 (three years ago) Permalink

don't be dense, if my argument was "being into something = nazi" i would have just said that

to repeat andrew's observation again:

I'm aware of the very large gulf of analogy, but the tone of the language actually reminds me of 30s German anti-semitism: These people are responsible for the fact that it's not the days of glory any more, these people are invisibly in cliques in positions of influence (and can only be there for subterfuge as they definitionally can't share the same identity as you and I), these people must be fought against at all costs.

― Andrew Farrell, Monday, September 8, 2014 11:00 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

what is shitty about gamers is the same thing that's shitty about reactionary reddit-ism, about the zones elliott rodgers stewed in; i'd bet there are huge overlaps in terms of the actual people too. the maladjustment, the paranoia, the crippling lack of passable familiarity with adult life. it's something that people need to keep an eye on.

goole, Monday, 8 September 2014 19:04 (three years ago) Permalink

do you think there might be less trenchant ways to express the idea that some gamers long for days of glory than comparing them to nazis?

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 19:08 (three years ago) Permalink

nah not really

goole, Monday, 8 September 2014 19:09 (three years ago) Permalink

Days of Glory does sound like a WWII sim

Philip Nunez, Monday, 8 September 2014 19:11 (three years ago) Permalink

can you think of better ways of describing seeing something malignant brewing in the society around you

goole, Monday, 8 September 2014 19:11 (three years ago) Permalink

yes, my mind does not immediately go to nazis whenever we discuss social ills

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 19:11 (three years ago) Permalink

you could say "gamers are kind of like the Klan" but I don't see that going over any better

stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Monday, 8 September 2014 19:12 (three years ago) Permalink

that tumblr did!

goole, Monday, 8 September 2014 19:13 (three years ago) Permalink

unless the comparison is like - gamers are just like nazis in that both have a heavily industrialized program of exterminating untermenschen... i just don't see it

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 19:14 (three years ago) Permalink

i think andrew captured the similarity in attitude pretty well

given what i've seen on 4chan i wouldn't be the least surprised if a lot of these dudes didn't turn out to be straight up antisemites too

goole, Monday, 8 September 2014 19:15 (three years ago) Permalink

I meant to post a longer version of this last week, but didn't get around to it:

When video games first appeared on the scene, there was no reason they would be specifically male-targeted. There were creative people, some of them outsider-types creating these things for whoever was interested. But, like many other things, when something reaches a certain level of mainstream acceptance or popularity, it gets *colonized* by the male-dominant, intolerant segment of society that creates this hegemonic power, driving out diversity and self-policing in terms of what is "allowed" in the community.

The fact that this exists in a form that encourages people to play alone in their homes or in fairly anonymized online environments makes it easier to dismiss marginalized people, namely women. The plots in games upholding masculine tropes and the general culture of being a _male gamer_ is self-congratulating.

It's like the youth version of the good old boy network idea -- people like us are meant to be on top, we make the rules here, make sure you keep anyone who isn't like us down.

Historically, the software development profession had a similar arc -- many of the first generation of programmers were women, but once people decided it was a profitable profession (or one that could have more prestige than acting like programming = typing = secretarial work) it became male-dominated. The fact that games used to be a lot more of a programming practice than a content-creation practice means there's a common thread, too.

⌘-B (mh), Monday, 8 September 2014 19:17 (three years ago) Permalink

Antisemitism is def a part of 4chan xp

, Monday, 8 September 2014 19:18 (three years ago) Permalink

I was rolling my eyes at a comment on twitter about "growing up playing games by Roberta Williams so I didn't know gaming was sexist" but there's a seed of truth in that. Gaming really only went fully dude-colonized in the 90s.

⌘-B (mh), Monday, 8 September 2014 19:19 (three years ago) Permalink

Autism is def a part of 4chan xp

the other song about butts in the top 5 (forksclovetofu), Monday, 8 September 2014 19:22 (three years ago) Permalink

:/

, Monday, 8 September 2014 19:22 (three years ago) Permalink

Wish you wouldn't use that as a perjorative, forks

, Monday, 8 September 2014 19:23 (three years ago) Permalink

Ugh - no offense to anyone in particular, but do we have to use this thread for general purpose "are games art" stuff? And we just did volkist antisemitism (regarding Queen) pretty recently - though tbh there I do get the relevance here. Worth unpacking particularly in terms of the stakes of getting to feel (with very little commitment at first) the rush of joining and belonging to a "movement" against these "öutsiders" causing the problem. You're both the rebel against the infiltrators that have taken over the system - one of the few who sees through the sheeple lies - and the silent majority, the Zerg rush - one of the many who "really" constitute the community. Fandom has a lot of that in its bones; some of it I think is proto-fascist, some of it maybe not.

re: the deathofgamergate tumblr post - I agree with Andrew Farrell that it could go much more richly into underlying causes - in particular I think it could engage MUCH more with gender at various levels of the analysis. But as an entry-level summary into the bogosity of the "movement" I do think it has some nice things to say. This captures something important IMO:

Gamers are not being vilified for the mere act of playing games. They’re being vilified for constructing and nurturing a subculture that readily allows fiascos like The Zoe Post to take hold. One simply doesn’t see this level of sustained, community-based harassment in other spheres of media; not even comic book nerds would have the gall to conduct themselves in this manner. To throw up one’s hands and whine “#NotAllGamers!” is to abdicate any responsibility for taking care of one’s own house - a house that desperately needs tending before termites destroy the whole foundation.

... basically, saying the responsibility is on those who identify as gamers, or participate in online gamer communities, to be allies for positive change rather than patting themselves on the back for being "not all" something, while quietly backing away from the scenes of trouble, in the name of "well I come to games for a fun escape, I don't want to spend the evening arguing with some guy over voice-chat in a shooter about whether rape jokes are okay or not."

It could be that we're in the early, most vitriolic and turbulent phase of a major change, as for the first time certain spaces and/or publications establish ground rules that clearly etsablish that X, Y and Z are not only not their scene but beyond the pale of civic discourse in the community. That's obviously going to provoke a serious whiplash reaction from people who assumed their whole lives that X and Y were totally the way the party rolled. Gradually, maybe, it'll become the kind of scene where if you want to spout misogynistic garbage and not get banned from the server/forum or whatever, you have to go to these specific all-asshole servers/forums. That would still leave huge spaces for all-asshole congregation but at least a) they would be forced to reckon with the fact that their view is a minority (maybe not very helpful - see Tea Party rhetoric) and b) newbies would be aware that it's a choice, and that the icky stuff constitutes one space which may not be the "normal" anymore. But I might also be writing fanfic at this point.

One unrelated thought I had, concerning the tropes and tendencies in fandom/game-nerd rhetoric that I was banging on about upthread: I notice that a lot of the enthusiastic sexist comment-leavers and forum-posters seem really, really comfortable with imagining really elaborate and complex false-flag, rope-a-dope and conspiratorial schemes on the part of "the media" or Sarkeesian or whoever else. Some of that may be garden-variety conspiracy theory, always popular when people feel the world changing around them in a way they think shouldn't be possible unless someone is up to nefarious deeds. Sure. I also think that games (and geek media generally) do tend to favor super-complex twist plots, the Joker in Dark Knight say, or Doctor Doom all the time ("I anticipate every contingency!"). And the thing is that in these media, these are the bad guys, but they're awesome bad guys, you love watching them carry this stuff out and there is a vicarious thrill in watching the super-impossible clockwork plan go its way.

So now, 14 years old and on IRC and excited to be hanging around with the big kids, you are very susceptible to a) proposals to carry out such a convoluted scheme (I really read this in the trying-to-sound-badass tone of the hangers-on in some of those IRC logs Quinn shared - there's clearly some mix there of those directly involved in carrying out harrassment and character assassination, and those who just like the way the words feel coming off their fingers) - - - and, b), believing that other people are probably doing this kind of thing. It's sorta like the confusion over "conflicts of interest," not understanding that journalists and critics often roll in the same social circles as creators... from the vantage point of someone who gets their information about conflict in the world from games, it might seem reasonable that when people disagree with you, it must be part of a coordinated plan to gain favor for their "agenda," lure in the unsuspecting, create a cover story for the impending D-Day of their master plan, whatever.

(sorry for tl;dr, whenever I write posts in notepad things go horribly wrong)

Doctor Casino, Monday, 8 September 2014 19:23 (three years ago) Permalink

haha lol at the weird office keyboard adding an umlaut to things when i'm talking about nazism

Doctor Casino, Monday, 8 September 2014 19:24 (three years ago) Permalink

xps yeah, that sounds about right, re: the 90s

Nhex, Monday, 8 September 2014 19:26 (three years ago) Permalink

Some of that may be garden-variety conspiracy theory, always popular when people feel the world changing around them in a way they think shouldn't be possible unless someone is up to nefarious deeds.

otm

⌘-B (mh), Monday, 8 September 2014 19:29 (three years ago) Permalink

comics definitely had a dude infusion in the late 80s/early 90s as far as popularity and subsequent content production went

⌘-B (mh), Monday, 8 September 2014 19:29 (three years ago) Permalink

if the endgame is that video game fandom matures into sports fandom (and i think in many respects this has kind of already happened), there won't be much improvement on the horizon.

Philip Nunez, Monday, 8 September 2014 19:31 (three years ago) Permalink

can't wait for old-timey george will baseball curmudgeon romanticism vg fandom

goole, Monday, 8 September 2014 19:32 (three years ago) Permalink

I was rolling my eyes at a comment on twitter about "growing up playing games by Roberta Williams so I didn't know gaming was sexist" but there's a seed of truth in that. Gaming really only went fully dude-colonized in the 90s.

― ⌘-B (mh)

I'm sorry, but video games have been sexist and misogynist for a long, long time. If you went into an arcade in the early 80s it was "macho" nerd heaven. Just look at the creepiness of the dudes in Chasing Ghosts - the alpha nerds of early 80s videogames - and it's pretty obvious. The internet allowed more casual players to be exposed to the well established norm, thus perpetuating and spreading it further and driving the roots in deeper. It's a bigger tree than 30+ years ago, but the seed was planted at least that long ago.

EZ Snappin, Monday, 8 September 2014 19:32 (three years ago) Permalink

competitive video gaming is a whole issue to touch upon; i mean, especially if you're gonna compare WoW to Street Fighter to Starcraft, they're all different, even in degrees of machoness

Nhex, Monday, 8 September 2014 19:36 (three years ago) Permalink

I don't think I meant to say that the video game environment was idyllic or not misogynist at any point

⌘-B (mh), Monday, 8 September 2014 19:40 (three years ago) Permalink

xp to 龜: i don't think I was! but lots of spectrum-y people certainly gravitate toward that more codified and obsessively structured world, myself included
fwiw, my girl works as a teacher with autistic students and i have done some work in that arena as well so i understand the reaction

the other song about butts in the top 5 (forksclovetofu), Monday, 8 September 2014 19:41 (three years ago) Permalink

it is true that sometimes someone's rampant sexism is greatly undercut by their sexy female night elf main character

stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Monday, 8 September 2014 19:42 (three years ago) Permalink

(apropos of nothing, I clicked on another thread and read "Not all messages..." at the top and it made me think of this thread again)

stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Monday, 8 September 2014 19:44 (three years ago) Permalink

I don't know what's undercutting about the fact I like to stare at night elf ass all day, DJP

⌘-B (mh), Monday, 8 September 2014 19:46 (three years ago) Permalink

(real thing that was cited in an article not long ago about the "female character"-playing sexists)

⌘-B (mh), Monday, 8 September 2014 19:47 (three years ago) Permalink

ha

I think the only female character I ever created was a female Tauren (hunter), because it was ludicrous and hilarious that they tried to make them sexy cow ladies

stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Monday, 8 September 2014 19:50 (three years ago) Permalink

i thought you grew up in the midwest

goole, Monday, 8 September 2014 19:51 (three years ago) Permalink

Xps pejorative use of "autistic" is the language of 4chan. /b/'s cringe threads are basically opportunities to post screencaps from facebook and tumblr to call out people's perceived autism.

bamcquern, Monday, 8 September 2014 19:52 (three years ago) Permalink

lol goole

my folks rent land to a dairy farm, too; still never gonna get busy with a cow

stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Monday, 8 September 2014 19:55 (three years ago) Permalink

xp to bam, well i don't know that environment well enough to get that connection so i'll shut the fuck up now.

the other song about butts in the top 5 (forksclovetofu), Monday, 8 September 2014 19:56 (three years ago) Permalink

I gotta find that "Billy Mitchell" episode of Regular Show

Nhex, Monday, 8 September 2014 19:58 (three years ago) Permalink

female voice actor for mass effect way superior to the male voice actor imo

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 19:58 (three years ago) Permalink

I want to play a 'Mordy' text adventure.

Spaceport Leuchars (dowd), Monday, 8 September 2014 20:19 (three years ago) Permalink

they're out there. warning: they are not fantastic.

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 20:22 (three years ago) Permalink

http://scarygoround.com/scare/strips/20140908.png

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 20:22 (three years ago) Permalink

oh also i guess penny arcade weighed in idgaf really

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 20:23 (three years ago) Permalink

your w33d is glowing with a faint blue glow

mookieproof, Monday, 8 September 2014 20:24 (three years ago) Permalink

Is Penny Arcade actually weighing in here? The news post is just some mundane observation about how game journalists feed off Reddit. People say the same thing about Gawker et al.

Reddit is part of that atomization, also. People often ask me what news sites I read, and implicit in this is the idea that they’re looking to shift an allegiance. But I don’t read sites out of allegiance, and it barely matters what they have written - and not just because most of it is insulting or aggressively stupid. It doesn’t matter because I just strip it off the wing bone in one quick pull. I need a button for my jacket that says “I’m Only Here For The Organic Compounds.” I process their text like a Perl script, shucking nonsense, and then I make pixel sculptures out of them with my best friend. My needs may be different.

Much of the content on “the big news sites” is simply reposts from Reddit, encased in their acrid saliva. Once you realize this, you can’t really read them in the same way.

jmm, Monday, 8 September 2014 20:47 (three years ago) Permalink

mmm, maybe i just assumed

Mordy, Monday, 8 September 2014 20:49 (three years ago) Permalink

Yeah, I also took that "Oh they're going to have views! Oh no, I guess not". Their forums (which I've never really read before, and kind of assumed was all scum and villainy?) have a pretty readable thread on this.

Sorry about the Nazis, Mordy - I was going for something a little more specific than just living in a fallen world though. I suppose that McCarthyism hits a lot of the same notes? 'These people' are among you, present an existential threat, are not applicable to any sense of commonality.

Reminded by Doctor Casino's booming post: I kind of wonder about the stories that young geeks soak up these days - I've seen a few actually say things along the lines of "(reveals purported pecadillo) Yeah, and they think they're the good guys!" which when I was growing up, was the clue that you are a) evil and b) insane.

Andrew Farrell, Tuesday, 9 September 2014 00:24 (three years ago) Permalink

beetbort

⌘-B (mh), Tuesday, 9 September 2014 21:46 (three years ago) Permalink

ha yes

bloopblorp

goole, Tuesday, 9 September 2014 21:54 (three years ago) Permalink

As I wrote last week, gaming journalism, populated by well-meaning liberals, has forgotten what it is for and become consumed with social justice activism, at the expense of writing intelligently about games.

maybe i'd be more sympathetic to this point if gaming journalism had ever been accused of "writing intelligently about games," as opposed to aggregating screen shots and previewing a list of dragon shouts that'll be in the new elder scrolls game. by comparison social justice activism is a huge step up and who knows? maybe learning to write acc to this critical lens will prep them for other critical analysis as well.

Mordy, Tuesday, 9 September 2014 22:03 (three years ago) Permalink

if kotaku keeps writing about feminist critiques of video games, will they still have time to publish 20 photos of the same Kratos promo bust??

Mordy, Tuesday, 9 September 2014 22:08 (three years ago) Permalink

bigger issue there i think is the assumption that being "consumed with social justice activism" would make it impossible to write intelligently about games, which doesn't compute at all to me because yeah, it'd anyway be something to subject the games to or test them by, which indeed, isn't really happening AFAIK.

btw, omg, i was thinking about bloopblorp just yesterday. "...then blorp them back!"

Doctor Casino, Tuesday, 9 September 2014 22:30 (three years ago) Permalink

all those guys sending roger ebert angry letters begging him to let games be art and now it's like wait wait wait -- criticism!?!

difficult listening hour, Tuesday, 9 September 2014 23:18 (three years ago) Permalink

(from girls!?!)

difficult listening hour, Tuesday, 9 September 2014 23:21 (three years ago) Permalink

some art "isn't for the critics"

⌘-B (mh), Tuesday, 9 September 2014 23:41 (three years ago) Permalink

Metal should only be listened to by metalheads who only listen to metal

Rand McNulty (Jon Lewis), Tuesday, 9 September 2014 23:50 (three years ago) Permalink

I am so sorry guys, my hateful speech was because 4chan was goading me on. i am a cool guy, i did not say those things of my own volition :(

⌘-B (mh), Wednesday, 10 September 2014 03:33 (three years ago) Permalink

Good caption from that article: "A man harasses a woman while another man kind of stands around doing nothing. A beautiful microcosm of recent events."

Barry Gordy (Neil S), Wednesday, 10 September 2014 08:23 (three years ago) Permalink

anyone up for some ~thoughts~ from an indie dev

http://techraptor.net/2014/09/08/indie-developers-toughts-on-state-gaming-industry/

What made you decide to speak out now?

50% personal fears and 50% of historical experience with my country.

As I mentioned before, my game is about a taboo topic, and I am doomed to be called sexist, a misogynist and victim blamer by some in the media. In a healthy industry, every game would be judged by quality and not by how it reflects current agendas. If games are art, we must agree that art is not a concrete substance. Realism is a valid form of art. I love realism. Frankly reality is gray. So, excuse me if I don’t buy irrational feminists white and black ideas that men are inherently rapists and women are victims. As an artist, I want to explore every side of the issue.

am0n, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 14:46 (three years ago) Permalink

Warlock • 2 days ago
I almost stood up in place and started to clap after I read this article. This dev is one boss guy.

am0n, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 14:50 (three years ago) Permalink

sincerely,

Warlock

am0n, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 14:51 (three years ago) Permalink

My game is a 3D puzzle/horror and the topic taps a taboo subject – false rape and sexual harassment accusations. I am trying to capture the horror of false accusations in a man’s life.

am0n, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 14:52 (three years ago) Permalink

The fact that he comes from a Post-Soviet Union country, which as you will see in the interview, also plays a role in forming his worldview.

i've mentioned this before on ilx but the most hardcore republicans i know are all former soviets

Mordy, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 14:53 (three years ago) Permalink

some of the best 3D puzzle/horror/false rape accusation games were made by former soviets

am0n, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 14:56 (three years ago) Permalink

An indie developer, who has requested to remain anonymous

They probably shouldn't have used a still from Indie Game: The Movie.

jmm, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 15:00 (three years ago) Permalink

Or no, I guess the interviewee is someone else.

The main reason I decided to make an indie game was a well-known movie about the indie scene where now well-established developers posed themselves as artists.

jmm, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 15:17 (three years ago) Permalink

this indie developer sounds like a treat

stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Wednesday, 10 September 2014 15:33 (three years ago) Permalink

http://the-toast.net/2014/09/11/im-gamer/

goole, Thursday, 11 September 2014 16:16 (three years ago) Permalink

loooooooool

stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Thursday, 11 September 2014 16:44 (three years ago) Permalink

I've had diarrhea before, Xbox

stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Friday, 12 September 2014 18:38 (three years ago) Permalink

The ultimate image of loneliness.

EZ Snappin, Friday, 12 September 2014 18:40 (three years ago) Permalink

GamerGate is still happening

I mean, lol

stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Tuesday, 16 September 2014 17:43 (three years ago) Permalink

How do they manage to keep a fake scandal going when for weeks there's been nothing new to say about it?

jmm, Tuesday, 16 September 2014 18:04 (three years ago) Permalink

It's the new hot MMO.

EZ Snappin, Tuesday, 16 September 2014 18:05 (three years ago) Permalink

Apparently WikiLeaks has now picked a side.

jmm, Tuesday, 16 September 2014 18:09 (three years ago) Permalink

I think at this point it's worth answering this thread's titular question with "no, casual racism and sexism are no more acceptable in video games and their attendant conversations and communities than anywhere else, and the people flinging shit and protecting their right to bigoted animus in games are either impressionable teenagers without much emotional intelligence or garbage adults worthy only of exposure, scorn, ridicule, and censure."

Spirit of Match Game '76 (silby), Tuesday, 16 September 2014 18:14 (three years ago) Permalink

they're either shitty kids or shitty adults, got it.

polyphonic, Tuesday, 16 September 2014 18:17 (three years ago) Permalink

so the answer is actually "because a lot of gamers suck, also welcome to our racist/sexist world"?

stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Tuesday, 16 September 2014 18:25 (three years ago) Permalink

*thread question was "accepted" not "acceptable"

anonanon, Tuesday, 16 September 2014 18:38 (three years ago) Permalink

also the original question wasn't a yes/no question

stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Tuesday, 16 September 2014 18:41 (three years ago) Permalink

*thread question was "accepted" not "acceptable"

― anonanon, Tuesday, September 16, 2014 11:38 AM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

also the original question wasn't a yes/no question

― stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Tuesday, September 16, 2014 11:41 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah I know but in light of the gamergate dustup the thread title was feeling increasingly fatalistic

Spirit of Match Game '76 (silby), Tuesday, 16 September 2014 18:45 (three years ago) Permalink

there's a lot of people in video games who have audiences who have taken this opportunity to be crystal clear with those audiences how unequivocally not OK harassment and bigotry is and even if it's a drop in the bucket in our shitty world I don't want to cede the whole territory to the shitlords

Spirit of Match Game '76 (silby), Tuesday, 16 September 2014 18:47 (three years ago) Permalink

misread that as "gamergate dubstep" and was irrationally happy for a second

stacked as fuck & imposing (DJP), Tuesday, 16 September 2014 18:47 (three years ago) Permalink

instead of struggling with that "they're not alllllll bad" line i prefer the "gamer as an identity is dead" line that's popped up out of all this. i can't take "the gaming community" seriously enough as a concept anymore to care about the microcosms within it, i'd rather just separate "self-proclaimed gamers who won't shut up" into their own microcosm within the general population

nb i haven't read any of this thread or any of those articles i'm just bored

linda cardellini (zachlyon), Tuesday, 16 September 2014 21:44 (three years ago) Permalink

How do they manage to keep a fake scandal going when for weeks there's been nothing new to say about it?

I actually know this - Milo Yiannopoulos, who wrote one of the Breitbart pieces upthread, rang iFred, the charity that Zoe Quinn mentioned on her site, saying "Can you confirm how much money you're getting from Depression Quest?" and the charity said "We have no record of that" and then he was carried around shoulder high because Journalism.

And then Zoe Quinn said "Yes, I paid that money to iFred personally and will talk to them" and iFred said "Yes, she's talked to us and our records confirm that", and then the GamerGaters largely peeled off leaving only a layer asking for payment details and dates and asking to speak to the legal department, while iFred very politely says "We have only one full time paid member of staff and we're trying to actually do policy work on depression, Please Fuck Off"

Andrew Farrell, Tuesday, 16 September 2014 21:55 (three years ago) Permalink

lol/sigh

💪😈⚠️ (DJP), Tuesday, 16 September 2014 21:56 (three years ago) Permalink

the other day i saw a very convincing long-form multi-step jpg diagram of how anita sarkeesian was never harassed out of her home and that milo dude's reportage was strongly relied upon.

goole, Tuesday, 16 September 2014 21:59 (three years ago) Permalink

We need to find some way to etch those jpgs on to plexiglass, or future generations will never understand what this is about.

Andrew Farrell, Tuesday, 16 September 2014 22:17 (three years ago) Permalink

You could seriously get a poll's worth of options of, what is the dumbest recurrent line used by shithead gamers with regard to Gamergate, I am leaning towards "...and she has never addressed the VERY SERIOUS objections made to the ACCURACY of her BULLSHIT VIDEOS which spew LIES" although the old goldie where letting it be known that you're being criminally harassed is a classic PLOY to get ATTENTION for your AGENDA. Sigh. I mustn't read the comments, I mustn't read the comments...

Doctor Casino, Wednesday, 17 September 2014 04:27 (three years ago) Permalink

I'm not going to click on beetbort, what does the article say?

⌘-B (mh), Wednesday, 17 September 2014 20:25 (three years ago) Permalink

not posted yet i don't think

goole, Wednesday, 17 September 2014 20:27 (three years ago) Permalink

it's up - tried to read it, laughed, closed window.

EZ Snappin, Wednesday, 17 September 2014 20:35 (three years ago) Permalink

For his professional work he's @Nero but when he wants to get personal he uses @Caligula.

Makes perfect sense.

polyphonic, Wednesday, 17 September 2014 20:37 (three years ago) Permalink

it is? are you going off that pinned tweet from a few days ago?

goole, Wednesday, 17 September 2014 20:39 (three years ago) Permalink

first line: "The video game community is perhaps the most inclusive, gender neutral and colourblind on the internet."

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/e9/e9a2295b3db9b45c8f5484a09033c1c71cf88e3375bb7ff60456bc81c29a4e04.jpg

Doctor Casino, Wednesday, 17 September 2014 20:54 (three years ago) Permalink

Milo Yiannopoulos @Nero · 2m
So you know that thing JournoList where journos were colluding behind the scenes? Nothing like that would happen in games right? #GamerGate

Milo Yiannopoulos @Nero · 45s
EXPOSED: The secret mailing list of the gaming journalism elite http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/09/17/Exposed-the-secret-mailing-list-of-the-gaming-journalism-elite … #GamerGate

Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 17 September 2014 20:58 (three years ago) Permalink

Haha come on

💪😈⚠️ (DJP), Wednesday, 17 September 2014 20:58 (three years ago) Permalink

kinda reminds me of that whole thing w/ left wing american pundits? i kinda don't remember who was involved now. weigel maybe? i think it was called Journolist?