no boys allowed in the room!!!!

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YEAH! I'm in so what do we do in this here room then?

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:22 (fourteen years ago) link

talk about makeup and boys and lisa frank stuff

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:23 (fourteen years ago) link

User BIG HOOS aka the steendriver has been successfully banned from the thread

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:24 (fourteen years ago) link

is this where we talk about shoes and dryer sheets

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:25 (fourteen years ago) link

in a word: y

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:26 (fourteen years ago) link

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I am down with talking about all those things.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0G0KeGZNnU0/SOkLif0annI/AAAAAAAAAJE/P4llZRVs8yQ/s320/8baeded0.gif

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:26 (fourteen years ago) link

and swiffers

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:26 (fourteen years ago) link

i hate the swiffer btw

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:26 (fourteen years ago) link

You hate the Swiffer? I was thinking of gettin' one tbh.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:27 (fourteen years ago) link

i dunno maybe it will improve your life but my mom got me one and it had a neutral effect afaic

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:28 (fourteen years ago) link

i wish clarissa from clarissa explains it all posted here

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:29 (fourteen years ago) link

i'm glad oprah doesn't post here except i would like to suggest ban her

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:31 (fourteen years ago) link

MJH was a bitch to me (as covered on another recent thread) so I don't have that much <3 for Clarissa :-(

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:31 (fourteen years ago) link

JTT <3333333333333333

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:31 (fourteen years ago) link

I totally had this game btw:

http://collegecandy.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/07/girl_talk_box_cover.jpg

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:33 (fourteen years ago) link

also we can make those paper fortune tellers and tell each others fortunes, in fact i am gonna make one right now

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:34 (fourteen years ago) link

who are:

lisa frank
mjh
clarissa

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:34 (fourteen years ago) link

haha what was the other game that was kinda like girl talk but it had men u could date?

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:34 (fourteen years ago) link

x-post OK yeah, am definitely up for doing that.

GOD DAMN:

http://www.styletraxx.com/JamesFranco.jpg

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:35 (fourteen years ago) link

i recall having this but i don't believe my mom would let me have it so i'm confused
http://www.boardgamesrus.com/images/Mall%20Madness%20G61.gif

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:35 (fourteen years ago) link

xpost justine:

lisa frank designed crazy school supply items like some of the dolphin-festooned things you see on this thread, she was v popular with middle school aged girls in the early-mid 90s

melissa joan hart is mjh, she played the title role in "clarissa explains it all" which was a popular nickelodeon television show for the same age of girls at roughly the same time

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:35 (fourteen years ago) link

i hate to be gabbneb, but i actually did briefly date a guy who kinda looked like james franco, esp as he is in this picture:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1940000/images/_1944248_mate_pa.jpg

anyways he was mad dumb

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:37 (fourteen years ago) link

awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:39 (fourteen years ago) link

right??????

man i so rarely like a pinup type of dude it is kinda cool when i do cause then you can like commiserate about it with other girls

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:40 (fourteen years ago) link

LOL yeah he's defintely just well . . . dreamy.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:40 (fourteen years ago) link

dryer sheets?

yes james franco is a universal.

horseshoe, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:41 (fourteen years ago) link

he's 2 years older than me?!

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:42 (fourteen years ago) link

dryer sheets and other products for the home lol

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:42 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah what's the with dryer sheets? I'm allergic to most fabric softeners so I have to use hippy dippy all natural stuff that doesn't work all that great but is at least something.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:43 (fourteen years ago) link

how old r u

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:43 (fourteen years ago) link

i hate dryer sheets, they are pointless

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:43 (fourteen years ago) link

i don't like anything that makes things smell like anything!

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:43 (fourteen years ago) link

Mr. Franco and I are 4 mo. and 10 days apart in age and I believe he's currently attending my alma matter.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:44 (fourteen years ago) link

damn erica lol

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:44 (fourteen years ago) link

en vaporisateur

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:45 (fourteen years ago) link

hahahaha touche

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:45 (fourteen years ago) link

yall check out this creepy ad btw:

http://rgh.cc/albums/userpics/10001/%5Bcreepy%5Dloves-baby-soft-ad-c1976.jpg

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:45 (fourteen years ago) link

(wait - I dind't actually know that . . . I looked it up just now. Just wanted to make sure you didn't think I was some franco-obsessed crazy person)

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:46 (fourteen years ago) link

ew rapey

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:46 (fourteen years ago) link

xp

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:46 (fourteen years ago) link

ok yeah, that is exceptionally creepy

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:46 (fourteen years ago) link

would not judge tbh: this is a girls only clubhouse for sharing and caring

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:46 (fourteen years ago) link

ha i was going to go look for a photo of jean nate but was too lazy

horseshoe, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:47 (fourteen years ago) link

i mean about enbb and franco, not about innocence being sexier than u think
xpost

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:47 (fourteen years ago) link

OK REALLY THAT AD IS COMPLTELY WRONG AND WTF?!

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:47 (fourteen years ago) link

this guy was suck a fuckin babe in 'go' and 'deadwood' but there are basically no other online pics of him where he doesn't look like a plastic surgery model

http://www.jdmfilmreviews.com/userimages/user-6813828_1179400556.jpg

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:48 (fourteen years ago) link

lol 'suck'

sposed to be 'such'

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:48 (fourteen years ago) link

freudian slip, ladies

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:48 (fourteen years ago) link

wtf is a dryer sheet

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:48 (fourteen years ago) link

my femininity is feeling threatened

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:49 (fourteen years ago) link

am i supposed to know these things?

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:49 (fourteen years ago) link

OK, I totally had this in middle school:

http://images.bidorbuy.co.za/user_images/866/419Discretion_Exclamation_by_Coty.jpg

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:49 (fourteen years ago) link

who was yalls favorite new kid

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:49 (fourteen years ago) link

(jordan)

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:49 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah or else you are a failure as a woman sorry xp

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:49 (fourteen years ago) link

speaking of gross ads, have y'all seen these:

http://www.sostav.ru/articles/rus/2008/columns/golden/images/gf_05.jpg

w t f

horseshoe, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:49 (fourteen years ago) link

i don't remember which one was favorite, i had their tape but i was like 5 or 6

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:50 (fourteen years ago) link

o sorry that was so hueg ugh

horseshoe, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:50 (fourteen years ago) link

i bet enbb liked donnie

jesus christ xpost

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:50 (fourteen years ago) link

the one with the curly hair, i forget his name

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:50 (fourteen years ago) link

tim olyphant in Go is a crush archetype of mine

horseshoe, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:51 (fourteen years ago) link

Dryer sheets are fabric softener sheet things you put in the clothes dryer to make things smell "nice" and eliminate static.

OK WHAT IS THAT AD???

I had NKOTB earrings and my favorite was . . . DONNY! I liked the bad one. lol.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:51 (fourteen years ago) link

OMG HOW DID YOU KNOW IT WOULD BE DONNY!?

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:51 (fourteen years ago) link

wait

it was joey

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:51 (fourteen years ago) link

is it "ie" whoops - guess I'm not such a fan as I once was

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:51 (fourteen years ago) link

mine was joey too! i was not going to be the first to admit that

xpost

horseshoe, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:52 (fourteen years ago) link

someone is yelling homophobic slurs at some lesbians outside

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:52 (fourteen years ago) link

tim olyphant in Go is . . . hot

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:52 (fourteen years ago) link

i simultaneously had a huge crush on jason priestly too

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:52 (fourteen years ago) link

lol then i turned 13 and got a crush on billy corgan

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:52 (fourteen years ago) link

yes i preferred priestly to perry.

horseshoe, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:53 (fourteen years ago) link

I thought the rest of New Kids were too girly or something idk but I was in love with Donnie. lol. Oh man.

I preferred priestly to perry too.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:53 (fourteen years ago) link

i always liked nice boys

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:54 (fourteen years ago) link

I was just watching the video for Roy Orbison's "I drove All Night" the other day and had completely forgotten that it stars Priestly and J Connelly and is pretty steamy.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:54 (fourteen years ago) link

i liked luke perry, but liked jordan over donnie, i am an anomaly

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:55 (fourteen years ago) link

i always like big queens with high pitched voices i think

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:55 (fourteen years ago) link

u guys are old

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:55 (fourteen years ago) link

which was y'alls favorite 90s supermodel?

xpost how old is a harbl?

horseshoe, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:56 (fourteen years ago) link

i'm 4 factorial

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:58 (fourteen years ago) link

i love linda and naomi

xpost erica i dont know how i knew u would like donnie w, i just did

i was convinced of it

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:58 (fourteen years ago) link

You are pretty wise

I love linda and I always thought that Amber Valetta was very pretty.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:00 (fourteen years ago) link

But Naomi is in her own class tbh.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:00 (fourteen years ago) link

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh110/SesshyGirl101/TheOutsiders.jpg

~~~~~~~~dreamy~~~~~~~~~

warmsherry, Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:01 (fourteen years ago) link

OK MATT DILLON

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:01 (fourteen years ago) link

linda and naomi is who i'm trying to decide between. it's difficult.

xpost how have i never seen the outsiders?

horseshoe, Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:01 (fourteen years ago) link

re: models

Tatiana Patitz

warmsherry, Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:02 (fourteen years ago) link

Oh and Ralph Macchio was my first real crush.

I don't think I've ever seen The Outsiders either!

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:03 (fourteen years ago) link

horseshoe rent it TONIGHT

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:05 (fourteen years ago) link

also lawl

warmsherry, Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:06 (fourteen years ago) link

YES!

Oh God seriously - Matt Dillon was/is probably still so hot.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:07 (fourteen years ago) link

hes hot in fishing with john at least, thats semi recent

god remember on ws when someone said matt dillon looked exactly like tyne daly? lol

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:08 (fourteen years ago) link

That's just crazy talk.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:09 (fourteen years ago) link

i do not remember that and now i have a lot of gis investigating to do.

xpost lol

horseshoe, Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:09 (fourteen years ago) link

struggin to find a pic of river phoenix where he doesnt look 12 tbh

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:10 (fourteen years ago) link

http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:3YYLnaJ0oYvU5M:http://web3.seventymm.com/Images/ActorImage/10908.jpg

she looks p hot here, but i don't really see it

horseshoe, Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:10 (fourteen years ago) link

btw noted lady of 1p3 nijoli served river phoenix his last falafel

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:10 (fourteen years ago) link

Oh Man River . . . sigh

I am a pretty big Joaquin fan too tbh.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:11 (fourteen years ago) link

x-post wow now that's a claim to fame!

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:11 (fourteen years ago) link

is there a non-hot phoenix?

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:11 (fourteen years ago) link

oh man river phoenix i recently made a friend watch a river phoenix movie i'd loved as a teenager and i realized as we watched that really all there was to the movie was river phoenix's face.

horseshoe, Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:11 (fourteen years ago) link

not that there's anything wrong with that.

horseshoe, Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:12 (fourteen years ago) link

what was it lol

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:12 (fourteen years ago) link

btw noted lady of 1p3 nijoli served river phoenix his last falafel

― The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Saturday, June 20, 2009 10:10 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

WAHT

xpost Dogfight, roxy, with Lili Taylor

horseshoe, Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:12 (fourteen years ago) link

will netflix right now

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:13 (fourteen years ago) link

haha okay just so you know, he plays a Marine, so he's not working the usual sensitive dude floppy hair. he is still an angel.

horseshoe, Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:14 (fourteen years ago) link

ok thats crutis

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:14 (fourteen years ago) link

feelin mad awkward now

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:14 (fourteen years ago) link

http://www.stuckinthe70s.com/images/tb0973meadad.jpg

warmsherry, Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:17 (fourteen years ago) link

who's curtis OMG

warmsherry, Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:17 (fourteen years ago) link

those girls are so freshfaced xpost

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:18 (fourteen years ago) link

my real heartthrob in the 90s was:

http://www.lynchnet.com/tp/tpcards/tpsp36.jpg

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:19 (fourteen years ago) link

<3 bobby and shelley together; so much prettiness!

horseshoe, Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:19 (fourteen years ago) link

i was more of a http://kanemi-web.hp.infoseek.co.jp/coop/cooper2x.JPG girl myself

horseshoe, Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:20 (fourteen years ago) link

i feel like we should talk about the jonas brothers or something, for harbl's sake.

horseshoe, Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:23 (fourteen years ago) link

wanted to be cooper but wanted to smooch bobby tbh

cooper was my first true hero of fiction
xpost LOOOOL

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 02:27 (fourteen years ago) link

haha gabbneb emailed me to protest that he had never dated a guy who looked kinda like james franco

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 04:19 (fourteen years ago) link

User The Reverend has been successfully banned from the thread

bubbrubbplatestyle (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 07:38 (fourteen years ago) link

User J0rdan S. has been successfully banned from the thread

bubbrubbplatestyle (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 07:49 (fourteen years ago) link

I was also more of a Cooper person Horseshoe.

I was pretty into Christian Slater for a while I mean I've seen "Untamed Heart" more than once and it definitely wasn't for the amazing dialogue.

Harbl - tell us who you were crushing on pls. We want to understand the youth of today.

On the topic of Phoenix's - they're all pretty hot but I've always been perplexed by how they all sort of look alike in the same dark and intensely featured sort of way except for River who looked absolutely nothing like that at all.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 10:39 (fourteen years ago) link

Here's a girl issue I would like to address at some point. Bikini waxing or other methods of grooming/hair removal. Just putting that out there.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 10:43 (fourteen years ago) link

xp lol i dunno this is weird maybe but i can't remember crushing on any type of celebrity for like my entire life? i'm not even gay

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 10:59 (fourteen years ago) link

the exfoliating kind of nair is amazing

this is not a retro statement, i mean it

bubbrubbplatestyle (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 20:26 (fourteen years ago) link

yes but harbl who did you crush on as a preteen? you dont have to still like them

bubbrubbplatestyle (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 23:24 (fourteen years ago) link

HOOS!

no that's what i'm saying i don't remember it ever happening!

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 23:29 (fourteen years ago) link

User Hoos has been successfully RE-banned from the thread

cootie alert is at orange

bubbrubbplatestyle (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 23:36 (fourteen years ago) link

User gbx has been successfully banned from the thread

User Matt P has been successfully banned from the thread

terror alert

bubbrubbplatestyle (roxymuzak), Monday, 22 June 2009 00:03 (fourteen years ago) link

time to batten down one hatch

bubbrubbplatestyle (roxymuzak), Monday, 22 June 2009 00:04 (fourteen years ago) link

i've seen that new nair stuff on tv - is it good, rox?

also: i will rep keanu forever and ever and ever and ever <3 <3

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Monday, 22 June 2009 03:01 (fourteen years ago) link

yes, it is actually awesome, and i hate nair

you rub it into your legs and then rinse it off in three minutes, and your legs will feel like a baby's ass, seriously my legs have never been smoother than that

bubbrubbplatestyle (roxymuzak), Monday, 22 June 2009 03:02 (fourteen years ago) link

how long does the smoothness last? is it ok to use on underarms/bikini line?

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Monday, 22 June 2009 03:03 (fourteen years ago) link

few days and yes

imo it takes less time or about the same amount of time as shaving anyways

bubbrubbplatestyle (roxymuzak), Monday, 22 June 2009 03:05 (fourteen years ago) link

i used nair a few times when i was younger, but the smell... gaaahhh

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Monday, 22 June 2009 03:08 (fourteen years ago) link

I've actually used the stuff that Roxy's talking about and it's pretty great.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Monday, 22 June 2009 03:08 (fourteen years ago) link

lol there was this stuff in nz/aus called 'nads' that was a hair removal stuff like honey (and was all natural and actually edible), but it worked like shit

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Monday, 22 June 2009 03:09 (fourteen years ago) link

(it was invented by this house wife for her daughter, nadine (hence 'nads'), cuz she had really hairy arms

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Monday, 22 June 2009 03:09 (fourteen years ago) link

Oh we got the Nads commercials here - you can eat it!

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Monday, 22 June 2009 03:11 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah we have that here too justine

nair smells but its like, no pain no gain imo

bubbrubbplatestyle (roxymuzak), Monday, 22 June 2009 03:17 (fourteen years ago) link

Oh speaking of pain and bikini area hair removal, I'm going to go find one of my first ever posts about the one and only time I've allowed a small eastern European woman anywhere near my vulva with hot wax . . .

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Monday, 22 June 2009 04:42 (fourteen years ago) link

you only live once

bubbrubbplatestyle (roxymuzak), Monday, 22 June 2009 04:42 (fourteen years ago) link

I want to be ok with bikini waxing, I really do. I've only had one experience with it though and I think it has left me scarred for life. I am not sure what I was expecting but it certainly didn't involve winding up on my hands and knees, holding my cheeks apart while a small Brazillian woman got closer to my bits than any gynaecologist ever has. Did I mention that the room had mirrors on all the walls? The whole situation resembled something out of a medical fetish porno. *shudders* That said, the results were fantastic. Until I get over that particular waxing experience, I'm sticking with shaving/trimming.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Monday, 22 June 2009 04:44 (fourteen years ago) link

Listen, I don't think you've really lived until you find yourself spreading your own ass cheeks apart in a smalled room with mirrored walls while a middle-aged lady pours hot wax all over your genitals so yeah . . . it was an experience all right.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Monday, 22 June 2009 04:46 (fourteen years ago) link

btw - I have since had this done in much tamer and nicer settings. I'm still not convinced that first time wasn't an elaborate hoax and that' I'm not an unwitting star in some b-grade porno somewhere.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Monday, 22 June 2009 04:51 (fourteen years ago) link

mirrored walls!??!?!

bubbrubbplatestyle (roxymuzak), Monday, 22 June 2009 05:02 (fourteen years ago) link

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Monday, 22 June 2009 05:02 (fourteen years ago) link

surely it was a bit of a red flag when she went from being eastern european to brazilian mid-procedure.

estela, Monday, 22 June 2009 05:08 (fourteen years ago) link

You're right, I should have left right then.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Monday, 22 June 2009 05:10 (fourteen years ago) link

HI ESTELA!

bubbrubbplatestyle (roxymuzak), Monday, 22 June 2009 05:13 (fourteen years ago) link

YES! The we're back ladies - E, E, and E (even though her name doesn't really start with "E")!

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Monday, 22 June 2009 05:14 (fourteen years ago) link

E cubed = 20.0855369

bubbrubbplatestyle (roxymuzak), Monday, 22 June 2009 05:18 (fourteen years ago) link

hello<3

estela, Monday, 22 June 2009 05:23 (fourteen years ago) link

the best thing about this thread is the absence of omar little.

estela, Monday, 22 June 2009 05:52 (fourteen years ago) link

otm that guy thinks he is the queen of england

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Monday, 22 June 2009 05:54 (fourteen years ago) link

User k3vin k. successfully banned from thread

cootie alert is at peuce

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Monday, 22 June 2009 05:59 (fourteen years ago) link

hello, ladies!

tehresa, Monday, 22 June 2009 06:17 (fourteen years ago) link

tza!!!!!

http://www.pontardawefilm.co.uk/film%20images/bffs-online.jpg

lol

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Monday, 22 June 2009 06:19 (fourteen years ago) link

Ftr, my favorite nkotb was Joey and we have the same birthday. One time I dreamed that he called me and then we met up and he gave me a kiss.

tehresa, Monday, 22 June 2009 06:22 (fourteen years ago) link

Awwwww.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Monday, 22 June 2009 11:32 (fourteen years ago) link

Jordan.

Anyone else remember YM? It was edited by Bonnie Fuller, who later became the evil gossip queen of US Weekly. Denise Richards was in ads for Bonne Bell. I was jealous of her, she had brown hair and blue eyes, which at the time I thought was the most perfect conceivable hair/eye color combination.

Sassy was better, obvs.

sciolism, Monday, 22 June 2009 12:14 (fourteen years ago) link

Yes I remember all those but yeah, Sassy was my favorite.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eat-the-press/Sassy%20rocker%20grrl-thumb.JPG

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Monday, 22 June 2009 16:32 (fourteen years ago) link

I'm pretty sassy though so it makes sense.

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Monday, 22 June 2009 16:32 (fourteen years ago) link

i remember seventeen and ym. i didn't feel like they were relevant to my life. maybe sassy would have been more but i wasn't very sassy. i don't really remember anything about being a child or teenager. is that weird?

harbl, Monday, 22 June 2009 16:50 (fourteen years ago) link

u r dead meat when roxy catches u in here

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Monday, 22 June 2009 16:56 (fourteen years ago) link

I got backup.

tehresa, Monday, 22 June 2009 17:10 (fourteen years ago) link

What the?! I thought you'd already been taken care of Mr. S.

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Monday, 22 June 2009 19:37 (fourteen years ago) link

We should probably just start telling first period stories. I don't think the boys will want in on that.

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Monday, 22 June 2009 19:38 (fourteen years ago) link

wth w/ that gib

tehresa, Monday, 22 June 2009 19:50 (fourteen years ago) link

...oyeux?

tehresa, Monday, 22 June 2009 19:55 (fourteen years ago) link

I'm confused!!!

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Monday, 22 June 2009 19:57 (fourteen years ago) link

can you not read, evan?

horseshoe, Monday, 22 June 2009 20:02 (fourteen years ago) link

boys are in the room

harbl, Monday, 22 June 2009 20:06 (fourteen years ago) link

i remember desperately wanting one of those charm necklaces, but i don't think i ever got one. i was obsessed with the little fake lipsticks for some reason. it's weird how grown women will buy expensive, gold versions of them still.

horseshoe, Monday, 22 June 2009 20:08 (fourteen years ago) link

Wait - like fake gold lipsticks? Why?!

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Monday, 22 June 2009 20:09 (fourteen years ago) link

haha not really exactly like them, but you know, expensive charm bracelets/necklaces. these are a thing, right? maybe i'm making them up.

horseshoe, Monday, 22 June 2009 20:09 (fourteen years ago) link

LOL yeah - I get you now. They're still definitely a thing and I don't really get it tbh.

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Monday, 22 June 2009 20:10 (fourteen years ago) link

The plastic ones were a version of real charms to begin with. I have a '50s-style charm bracelet, my mom started them for us when we were little, and I'm still really jealous of hers, like the globe on a stand that's made of turquoise so it rly kind of looks like the earth, and it spins.

But not someone who should be dead anyway (Laurel), Monday, 22 June 2009 20:12 (fourteen years ago) link

i guess that makes more sense.

horseshoe, Monday, 22 June 2009 20:13 (fourteen years ago) link

Yes, I like the vintage type ones. My mom also started one of those for me when I was little and has a cool one herself that also has a globe. It's this kind of thing I'm not too keen on, I guess:

http://www.tiffany.com/shopping/CategoryBrowse.aspx?cid=288216&mcat=148204

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Monday, 22 June 2009 20:14 (fourteen years ago) link

The point of charms is to be commemorative, though. I have charms for major performances, recitals, certain years of my life, things that people gave me like a saint's medal (St Michael? no idea why) and odds and ends that remind me of people. I just found a 1950s-era New York subway token in a handbag in a secondhand store, and I'm going to put a silver link through it and add it to my charm bracelet to commemorate the last dozen years of my life, basically.

But not someone who should be dead anyway (Laurel), Monday, 22 June 2009 20:16 (fourteen years ago) link

Oh, Tiffany's. Gross!

But not someone who should be dead anyway (Laurel), Monday, 22 June 2009 20:17 (fourteen years ago) link

Yes - I think mine has a saint's medal too. It also has little skis purchased in Colorado when I learned to ski, a heart for my 16th birthday and some others. I think the subway token is a great idea.

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Monday, 22 June 2009 20:18 (fourteen years ago) link

Yeah, see?! Stuff from your childhood, that's the ticket.

But not someone who should be dead anyway (Laurel), Monday, 22 June 2009 20:19 (fourteen years ago) link

okay i can't believe i might actually try nair bc of this thread.

horseshoe, Monday, 22 June 2009 21:26 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah i'm gonna get me some

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Monday, 22 June 2009 21:27 (fourteen years ago) link

I don't remember it working that well but it's been many years.

But not someone who should be dead anyway (Laurel), Monday, 22 June 2009 21:27 (fourteen years ago) link

roxy tried some new exfoliating kind, Laurel!

horseshoe, Monday, 22 June 2009 21:31 (fourteen years ago) link

Guys try it and then we can all wear hotpants and do a kickline:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou9AabR6_1w

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Monday, 22 June 2009 22:26 (fourteen years ago) link

Purchasing a pair of flowery be-sequined hotpants in anticipation xpost

warmsherry, Monday, 22 June 2009 22:32 (fourteen years ago) link

Guys I am watching the craft now because I bought the craft and wild things for 3.99 at ross when I was meant to buy housewares and anyway two things:
1) this soundtrack!
2) skeet ulrich! Poor man's Johnny Depp! Used to love him!

tehresa, Tuesday, 23 June 2009 05:41 (fourteen years ago) link

Where are the girlz? :(

tehresa, Tuesday, 23 June 2009 06:23 (fourteen years ago) link

I just realized that skeet in this movie looks like the boy I had a srs crush on in 8th grade.

tehresa, Tuesday, 23 June 2009 06:48 (fourteen years ago) link

poor skeet ulrich

horseshoe, Tuesday, 23 June 2009 12:11 (fourteen years ago) link

im going to start banning rpt boy offenders from 1p3 altogether

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 23 June 2009 16:55 (fourteen years ago) link

Hive mind at work: I was in wallgreens and that new nair was on sale and staring at me so I bought it.

tehresa, Tuesday, 23 June 2009 17:08 (fourteen years ago) link

hahaha i saw it this morning in kroger and picked up some extra. and i used it last night!!! i am so smooth

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 23 June 2009 17:09 (fourteen years ago) link

Also btw, leg waxing hurts a lot more than bikini waxing but I've never done a full Brazilian or whatever so maybe that's not true.

tehresa, Tuesday, 23 June 2009 17:10 (fourteen years ago) link

i trust u heard enbb's tale

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 23 June 2009 17:10 (fourteen years ago) link

I wish I could still afford leg waxing though, it's so much better than nair/shaving.

tehresa, Tuesday, 23 June 2009 17:12 (fourteen years ago) link

brazilian was pretty painful first time - and about the most embarrassed i've ever been - but really easy the 2nd time. gotta make sure you have a waxer who'll take it off in big patches so it's all over in 10mins, not someone who does tiny little patches and takes 90fuckinmins

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Tuesday, 23 June 2009 17:15 (fourteen years ago) link

Yeah if you do end up having it done then I'd recommend you check to make sure that it's not carried out in a room with MIRRORED WALLS.

I'd definitely have a bikini wax done again (and have since) but not the full deal.

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Tuesday, 23 June 2009 17:24 (fourteen years ago) link

BTW - I bought the nair yesterday too. LOL.

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Tuesday, 23 June 2009 17:24 (fourteen years ago) link

Oh also - waxing that particular area yourself with one of the store bought kits is something I would definitely not recommend.

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Tuesday, 23 June 2009 17:26 (fourteen years ago) link

Jezebel shows a documentary clip on this very topic

WARNING TO ENBB: CONTINUED MISUSE OF ANATOMICAL TERMS, MAY CAUSE RAGE.

But not someone who should be dead anyway (Laurel), Tuesday, 23 June 2009 17:51 (fourteen years ago) link

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Ok - will wait to watch this tonight until I'm home and can verbally express any rage generated.

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Tuesday, 23 June 2009 17:53 (fourteen years ago) link

Thanks for the heads up, btw.

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Tuesday, 23 June 2009 17:53 (fourteen years ago) link

Oh boy I can't wait to have internets at home again

tehresa, Tuesday, 23 June 2009 17:59 (fourteen years ago) link

too old for new kids - my bff and I were totally crushing on:
http://im-possible.info/images/art/films/labyrinth/bowie_labyrinth.jpg

fistula pumping action (sarahel), Wednesday, 24 June 2009 01:12 (fourteen years ago) link

Bowie's package in that movie is obscene.

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Wednesday, 24 June 2009 01:12 (fourteen years ago) link

until I found that pic, I had forgotten about those boots. I have a pair kinda like that that I rarely well because heels make my feet hurt.

fistula pumping action (sarahel), Wednesday, 24 June 2009 01:14 (fourteen years ago) link

this is where we're talking about bras, i presume? i just bought one i love: strapless bras are usually not worth it in my experience, but this one is great.

horseshoe, Friday, 26 June 2009 21:06 (fourteen years ago) link

strapless bras never work for me

:(:(:(:(:(:(

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Friday, 26 June 2009 21:08 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah, me neither. this one is supportive though and not padded and also comfortable. i feel evangelical about it.

horseshoe, Friday, 26 June 2009 21:10 (fourteen years ago) link

maybe i should check it out!!

how big are your boobs btw

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Friday, 26 June 2009 21:11 (fourteen years ago) link

if that is too personal just make up something outlandish

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Friday, 26 June 2009 21:11 (fourteen years ago) link

"96 J"

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Friday, 26 June 2009 21:12 (fourteen years ago) link

lol no it's fine i am a D cup sometimes DD. if you're bigger, i can imagine the supportiveness might crap out.

horseshoe, Friday, 26 June 2009 21:12 (fourteen years ago) link

also that ad copy is sort of exaggerate-y--it's definitely not an "exquisitely beautiful" bra, but it gets the job done.

horseshoe, Friday, 26 June 2009 21:14 (fourteen years ago) link

"exquisite stretch lace" LOL

harbl, Friday, 26 June 2009 21:27 (fourteen years ago) link

i hate catalog copy

harbl, Friday, 26 June 2009 21:27 (fourteen years ago) link

last night i told my bf that with the light off he looked like janmes franco, he got pissed off

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Friday, 26 June 2009 21:44 (fourteen years ago) link

Hey used that nair shit today it is pretty tite imo

tehresa, Friday, 26 June 2009 21:53 (fourteen years ago) link

finally i am an evangelist of something

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Friday, 26 June 2009 21:56 (fourteen years ago) link

I hate strapless bras but I sort of need one. I will check that one out. You guys have much bigger boobs than I do though. I'm only a b or very sm C depending on the bra. I have such a hard time finding bras that I think almost all the ones I own are the same make just in different colors/materials. If I can get away with not wearing them under whatever clothes I have on I do - that's how much I hate them.

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Friday, 26 June 2009 22:02 (fourteen years ago) link

im jealous, theres only one thing i can get away with not wearing a bra in - halter dresses

i love them for this reason

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Friday, 26 June 2009 22:17 (fourteen years ago) link

I <3 halter dresses too just cause they're awesome.

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Friday, 26 June 2009 22:22 (fourteen years ago) link

also tank tops that include a bra, although the thing is usually a little too small, they are still sooo comfy

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Friday, 26 June 2009 22:23 (fourteen years ago) link

Yes, I will rep for those as well.

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Friday, 26 June 2009 22:25 (fourteen years ago) link

lets run on that platform

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Friday, 26 June 2009 22:26 (fourteen years ago) link

do you guys ever have like a flash of paranoia when you see a woman on the street and you're like "shit that's gonna be me in 20 years"

or is it just me

harbl, Friday, 26 June 2009 22:54 (fourteen years ago) link

YES

when i see those weird legs

you know what i mean

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Friday, 26 June 2009 22:56 (fourteen years ago) link

WEIRD LEGS

harbl, Friday, 26 June 2009 22:57 (fourteen years ago) link

nah i just went out to take the garbage out and there were these two ladies who looked like they were getting off the bus from work maybe and one of them had this long ugly skirt that was like a quilt of purple and blue velour and she had long hair and a big butt, nothing about her was like me AT ALL but she just made me paranoid about getting old. she looked like she was a teacher maybe.

harbl, Friday, 26 June 2009 22:59 (fourteen years ago) link

it was weird, i shouldn't worry about it

harbl, Friday, 26 June 2009 22:59 (fourteen years ago) link

becoming like her i mean, it's impossible

harbl, Friday, 26 June 2009 22:59 (fourteen years ago) link

i feel bad for talking about her like this, i bet she's really nice she just scared me

harbl, Friday, 26 June 2009 23:00 (fourteen years ago) link

these things happen so gradually, you wouldnt believe it

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Friday, 26 June 2009 23:01 (fourteen years ago) link

otoh sometimes i see old ladies (not old old like maybe 50 or 60) and i think hey that would be ok. esp because i am gonna have white hair when i get old, which is good.

harbl, Friday, 26 June 2009 23:02 (fourteen years ago) link

i think i already have weird legs probably u_u

harbl, Friday, 26 June 2009 23:09 (fourteen years ago) link

crazylegs

harbl, Friday, 26 June 2009 23:09 (fourteen years ago) link

you are a great breakdancer!

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Friday, 26 June 2009 23:10 (fourteen years ago) link

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carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Friday, 26 June 2009 23:14 (fourteen years ago) link

(rock hardy)

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Friday, 26 June 2009 23:14 (fourteen years ago) link

can you really ban a mod? try posting again i wanted to see what that said

harbl, Friday, 26 June 2009 23:14 (fourteen years ago) link

he could unban himself if he felt a strong urge, but i would just delete every post he made within seconds

i never sleep

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Friday, 26 June 2009 23:15 (fourteen years ago) link

God the weird leg thing rly freaks me out

tehresa, Friday, 26 June 2009 23:29 (fourteen years ago) link

Can you guys elaborate on what exactly you mean by weird legs cause now I'm gettin' scared of developing these and I don't even know what exactly they are!

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Friday, 26 June 2009 23:31 (fourteen years ago) link

like, oddly shaped, covered in varicose veins :((((

i hope i die before i get old

harbl, Friday, 26 June 2009 23:32 (fourteen years ago) link

ok yeah shit - that wouldn't be good

I actually really like my legs. I hope they don't go bad!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Friday, 26 June 2009 23:33 (fourteen years ago) link

sucks that those are genetic--my mom and uncle both had surgery to remove them bc they are painful and ugly.

harbl, Friday, 26 June 2009 23:34 (fourteen years ago) link

:-(

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Friday, 26 June 2009 23:36 (fourteen years ago) link

that, and the very weird cellulite thats almost like a post-cellulite in that it looks like something has left the leg

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Friday, 26 June 2009 23:52 (fourteen years ago) link

oh no!

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Friday, 26 June 2009 23:53 (fourteen years ago) link

you know what im talking about. philip that that that deflated leg.

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Saturday, 27 June 2009 00:03 (fourteen years ago) link

Ew :(

tehresa, Saturday, 27 June 2009 00:22 (fourteen years ago) link

whoa!

i love halter dresses, too. today i met an older lady that i would very much like to be like. her hair was completely white + v beautiful.

horseshoe, Saturday, 27 June 2009 01:41 (fourteen years ago) link

that will be harbl someday

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Saturday, 27 June 2009 01:42 (fourteen years ago) link

also:

last night i told my bf that with the light off he looked like janmes franco, he got pissed off

― carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Friday, June 26, 2009 5:44 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

loooool

xpost totally!

horseshoe, Saturday, 27 June 2009 01:42 (fourteen years ago) link

meant it as a compliment

i mean if a guy told me wow in the dark you look like elle macpherson or something id be like BADASSSSS

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Saturday, 27 June 2009 01:44 (fourteen years ago) link

it's a total compliment. he clearly doesn't understand about james franco.

horseshoe, Saturday, 27 June 2009 01:45 (fourteen years ago) link

"u only like him because he has a beautifully featured face" and i was like "no he also has a bangin body iirc"

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Saturday, 27 June 2009 01:47 (fourteen years ago) link

what is with men being huge drama queens btw and then acting like we are the ones that are huge drama queens

i mean lets just get this out of the way here

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Saturday, 27 June 2009 01:48 (fourteen years ago) link

its like when they get a cold you are expected to throw a fucking parade

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Saturday, 27 June 2009 01:48 (fourteen years ago) link

that is a universal truth but everyone has to keep it on the downlow i guess.

horseshoe, Saturday, 27 June 2009 02:08 (fourteen years ago) link

well i am ready to shout about it

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Saturday, 27 June 2009 02:11 (fourteen years ago) link

lol they are also very gossipy iirc

horseshoe, Saturday, 27 June 2009 02:11 (fourteen years ago) link

having a tshirt made, and working up a two-person hand-clapping playground rhyme routine about it

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Saturday, 27 June 2009 02:12 (fourteen years ago) link

youre right!!!!!!!!

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Saturday, 27 June 2009 02:12 (fourteen years ago) link

i am trying to figure out a "boys are drama queens" version of firecracke firecracker boom boom boom.

horseshoe, Saturday, 27 June 2009 02:17 (fourteen years ago) link

You guys! Otm! Seriously how come they are such babies? Ugh!

tehresa, Saturday, 27 June 2009 02:32 (fourteen years ago) link

Like why do we have to tiptoe around their sensitivities/insecurities when they are so reckless around ours and get away with it bc they are lol dumb boys?

tehresa, Saturday, 27 June 2009 02:36 (fourteen years ago) link

the human condish

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Saturday, 27 June 2009 02:40 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah that set-up is kind of bullshit xpost

horseshoe, Saturday, 27 June 2009 02:41 (fourteen years ago) link

re old age ladies: ima getting paranoid about chicken-neck - all the women on my mum's side have it - u know, the droopy skin under the chin, i've been noticing in photos for the last year that i'm getting that and i'm so scared! srsly, i will get that shit plastic-surgeried if i have to

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Saturday, 27 June 2009 03:31 (fourteen years ago) link

a gobbler!!!!!!!!

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Saturday, 27 June 2009 03:34 (fourteen years ago) link

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(noodle vague)

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Saturday, 27 June 2009 03:37 (fourteen years ago) link

it's so dang ugly and there's nothing u can do to stop it's onset - my mum is like crazy about fancy skin creams but she still got it

there is no hope for me ;_; ;_; glad i married before it really set in

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Saturday, 27 June 2009 03:38 (fourteen years ago) link

roxy u should ban user ytth before he gets in here

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Saturday, 27 June 2009 03:55 (fourteen years ago) link

lets discuss film

put a + by the film if you love it, - if you hate it, = if youre ambiv.

steel magnolias +++++++++++
9 to 5 +
clueless +
beaches =
bring it on +
breakfast at tiffanys = to -
13 going on 30 =
the princess diaries -

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 03:45 (fourteen years ago) link

Rox - you know I was Shelby in my HS's stage version of Steel Magnolias, right? I know every line. lol

I agree with your ratings across the board.

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Sunday, 28 June 2009 03:48 (fourteen years ago) link

i never knew that!!!!!!!

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 03:49 (fourteen years ago) link

It came up on some thread recently - thought you might have seen.

My colors are blush and bashful mama, I have chosen two shades of pink. One is much deeper than the other.

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Sunday, 28 June 2009 03:50 (fourteen years ago) link

Secretly I wanted to be Ouiser

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Sunday, 28 June 2009 03:50 (fourteen years ago) link

guys steel magnolias!

steel magnolias +
9 to 5 +
clueless +++++++
beaches i would say - but this is the first movie i ever saw in a theater and i have a sentimental attachment so =
bring it on +
breakfast at tiffany's - i don't get audrey hepburn + this movie is dumb
13 going on 30 +
the princess diaries =

Ouiser is the greatest

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 03:54 (fourteen years ago) link

Oh wait - I think I have to put a + next to Beaches because it was my favorite movie when I was in 6th grade. lol.

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Sunday, 28 June 2009 03:56 (fourteen years ago) link

ouiser is a personal hero

i love steel magnolias so much!!! i watch it at work all the time

lol @ the armadillo cake

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 03:58 (fourteen years ago) link

i need to rewatch beaches, i havent really seen it as an adult

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 03:58 (fourteen years ago) link

steel magnolias +
9 to 5 ?
clueless ?
beaches =
bring it on ++++
breakfast at tiffanys ?
13 going on 30 ?
the princess diaries ?

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Sunday, 28 June 2009 05:23 (fourteen years ago) link

you are clueless about clueless!!!

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 05:25 (fourteen years ago) link

yes

can't believe i haven't seen most of these. beaches i've seen but don't remember. steel mags i saw when i was kid and don't remember except that i loved it. i have basically no memory when it comes to movies.

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Sunday, 28 June 2009 05:26 (fourteen years ago) link

clueless is pretty good but I haven't seen it in ages

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Sunday, 28 June 2009 05:27 (fourteen years ago) link

9 to 5 RIYL steel magnolias

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 05:39 (fourteen years ago) link

swoon

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Sunday, 28 June 2009 05:43 (fourteen years ago) link

steel magnolias +
9 to 5 =
clueless +
beaches ?
bring it on +++++++
breakfast at tiffanys - 13 going on 30 =
the princess diaries ?

adding:
fried green tomatoes +

tehresa, Sunday, 28 June 2009 07:11 (fourteen years ago) link

fried green tomatoes +

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 07:18 (fourteen years ago) link

btw this reminds me:
red velvet cake +

tehresa, Sunday, 28 June 2009 07:37 (fourteen years ago) link

i got a sprite lip gloss and my mouth tastes like sprite

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 10:21 (fourteen years ago) link

wtf with these movies

harbl, Sunday, 28 June 2009 11:05 (fourteen years ago) link

posts very much in character

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 11:11 (fourteen years ago) link

sorry, woke up froggy

harbl, Sunday, 28 June 2009 12:39 (fourteen years ago) link

tell us your opinion on some movies typically called "chick flicks" harbl

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 12:41 (fourteen years ago) link

omg the barq's root beer lip smacker is so good!!!!!!!1

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 12:42 (fourteen years ago) link

never seen one i didn't hate tbh

harbl, Sunday, 28 June 2009 12:42 (fourteen years ago) link

nb i like really bad, dumb movies sometimes but not 'chick flicks' (not sure what that really means though) i just...whenever i see one i feel like ugh i can't believe i'm supposed to like this

harbl, Sunday, 28 June 2009 12:45 (fourteen years ago) link

sorry

harbl, Sunday, 28 June 2009 12:45 (fourteen years ago) link

dont apologize to me as u can see i have mixed reviews myself

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 12:47 (fourteen years ago) link

ok i just sorried twice in like 5 posts i dunno what's wrong w/ me this morning!

harbl, Sunday, 28 June 2009 12:49 (fourteen years ago) link

i just read a thing about how women overapologize

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 12:55 (fourteen years ago) link

oh yeah i know about that. i try to watch out for it. same with "i'm probably wrong but..." and that kind of 'hedging' talk like when people ask questions in a class or something.

sometimes boys overapologize too though. i don't like it.

harbl, Sunday, 28 June 2009 12:58 (fourteen years ago) link

yes it can be annoying in everyone

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 12:59 (fourteen years ago) link

i am gonna make 2 sweet potato pies today. after i get butter.

harbl, Sunday, 28 June 2009 13:01 (fourteen years ago) link

i just read a thing about how women overapologize

― carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, June 28, 2009 8:55 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

I am sooooooooooooo guilty of this. Should work on not doing it.

Sweet potato pies!

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Sunday, 28 June 2009 14:26 (fourteen years ago) link

i don't feel like the proper amount of reverence is being shown for clueless but it is okay for women to have different opinions than each other, i suppose.

the overapologizing thing is a thing. i hate it and do it.

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 16:22 (fourteen years ago) link

i do it too. i'm sorry. please don't hate me!

harbl, Sunday, 28 June 2009 16:31 (fourteen years ago) link

i burnt myself on the oven

harbl, Sunday, 28 June 2009 16:32 (fourteen years ago) link

fried green tomatoes +++++++

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Sunday, 28 June 2009 17:22 (fourteen years ago) link

<3

tehresa, Sunday, 28 June 2009 18:01 (fourteen years ago) link

i have eaten my weight in salt and vinegar potato chips today iirc

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 18:09 (fourteen years ago) link

those are my favorite of all the chips

harbl, Sunday, 28 June 2009 18:12 (fourteen years ago) link

yes they are a true challenge and reward to eat

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 18:15 (fourteen years ago) link

I just housed the biggest blueberry pancake I've ever seen. Waited nearly 40 mins. for a table and another 30 for the food so by the time it got to me I was STARVING. So good but I think I'm going to vomit and then die now.

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Sunday, 28 June 2009 19:40 (fourteen years ago) link

the overapologizing thing is a thing. i hate it and do it.

I have been thinking about this all morning because it is and I do it a lot but don't know why. I do it mainly when I'm unsure if a person is upset or angry with me esp if someone is being uncommunicative. I guess I do it a lot in general too. I don't know. I wish I knew why I do this or how to stop because even I know it's annoying.

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Sunday, 28 June 2009 19:45 (fourteen years ago) link

can we talk about food that we crave when we're on our periods?

fistula pumping action (sarahel), Sunday, 28 June 2009 20:01 (fourteen years ago) link

I have been thinking about this all morning because it is and I do it a lot but don't know why. I do it mainly when I'm unsure if a person is upset or angry with me esp if someone is being uncommunicative. I guess I do it a lot in general too. I don't know. I wish I knew why I do this or how to stop because even I know it's annoying.

― ☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Sunday, June 28, 2009 3:45 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

sometimes when i do it i think it is kind of a game where i'm trying to see if the person i'm apologizing to is going to dismiss me or see through the apology and credit whatever it is i'm apologizing for? (if that makes no sense, this happened a lot in graduate school when i was making a comment in class/at a lecture/in a workshop.) this is a pretty self-defeating and fucked up game, needless to say. there's some weird kind of vindication when people do dismiss you, though. lol i sound like a crazy person.

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 20:57 (fourteen years ago) link

Sorry, I don't think I really do this too much.

tehresa, Sunday, 28 June 2009 21:04 (fourteen years ago) link

lol

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 21:05 (fourteen years ago) link

no i have that xxp

harbl, Sunday, 28 June 2009 21:05 (fourteen years ago) link

also impostor syndrome, where you feel like everything you've done is like a joke because everyone else has been working hard and you're just pretending to be smart, and people will find out any minute

harbl, Sunday, 28 June 2009 21:06 (fourteen years ago) link

I just always felt smarter/superior bc I didn't have to work as hard lol.

tehresa, Sunday, 28 June 2009 21:08 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah i think that is probably related! also, harbl you seem v accomplished, especially for someone who is five years old!

xpost

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 21:09 (fourteen years ago) link

I just always felt smarter/superior bc I didn't have to work as hard lol.

― tehresa, Sunday, June 28, 2009 5:08 PM (26 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i kind of have swings of this sometimes, it goes back and forth but i think they reinforce each other

harbl, Sunday, 28 June 2009 21:10 (fourteen years ago) link

like when people say "aren't you gonna study" and i'm thinking fuck that who cares and then i do fine and i subsequently feel like an impostor

harbl, Sunday, 28 June 2009 21:11 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah, i think the apologizing thing, at least when i do it, is a mix of superiority and insecurity. the superiority comes from secretly knowing that you're not as dumb/insecure as you've made yourself sound by apologizing.

girls only thread causing me to overshare.

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 21:12 (fourteen years ago) link

I never really feel impostory but sometimes I would get pissed off if someone I thought was dumb or had stupid ideas/projects got a better grade than I did even if they put more time into it which I guess is silly but maybe not because more time spent on a project does not necessarily mean better quality but whatever that's life I guess.
Xpost

tehresa, Sunday, 28 June 2009 21:16 (fourteen years ago) link

people i think are dumb often get better grades than me but that's what happens when you think everyone is dumb

harbl, Sunday, 28 June 2009 21:19 (fourteen years ago) link

ob tampons

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 21:31 (fourteen years ago) link

I just always felt smarter/superior bc I didn't have to work as hard lol.

that was me, too ... until I got to college.

fistula pumping action (sarahel), Sunday, 28 June 2009 21:41 (fourteen years ago) link

i felt smarter for other reasons

i think i thought i had extrasensory perception or something

(read too much "girl with the silver eyes")

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 21:42 (fourteen years ago) link

omg that book!

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 21:43 (fourteen years ago) link

did you love it?????????????

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 21:43 (fourteen years ago) link

books

girl with the silver eyes +
karen kepplewhite is the worlds best kisser +
all rl stine and christopher pike trash +
otis spofford et al +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

actually cant think of any stupid YA book that i didnt like at least somewhat

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 21:44 (fourteen years ago) link

argh i can't find the cover from my old copy on GIS, but even just the cover is super-evocative.

xpost it obsessed me! so scary/awesome!

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 21:44 (fourteen years ago) link

karen kepplewhite is a fave!

girl with the silver eyes +
karen kepplewhite is the world best kisser +
rl stine = chris pike +++++
is otis spofford one of the beverly cleary characters?

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 21:46 (fourteen years ago) link

i wonder which cover you had. i have a collection of different editions lol.

i had this one:

http://logan.com/loganberry/solved-girlsilvereyes.jpg

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 21:46 (fourteen years ago) link

im so glad you knew karen kepplewhite

yes! otis spofford was the redhead who lived in the shitty apartments, the "working class" one. he was probably my favorite though i loved them all. he loved ellen tebbits and so did i

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 21:46 (fourteen years ago) link

the one i had was all blue + purple and the "girl" on the front barely looks human? spooky.

xpost oh ellen tebbits! loved her! some cleary books i loved, but some have not stuck with me.

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 21:47 (fourteen years ago) link

when I was in 4th grade my favorite books were Harriet the Spy and The Spy's Guidebook ... I figured that utilizing the professional techniques described in the latter book that I wouldn't get caught like Harriet did. In actuality, no one really paid any attention whatsoever.

fistula pumping action (sarahel), Sunday, 28 June 2009 21:49 (fourteen years ago) link

harriet the spy got me into tomato sandwiches.

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 21:50 (fourteen years ago) link

+ is a great book.

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 21:50 (fourteen years ago) link

How do you guys feel about sweet valley high and the babysitters club?

tehresa, Sunday, 28 June 2009 21:53 (fourteen years ago) link

i definitely loved them in fourth grade; SVH in particular--so racy! though i have tried to reread the babysitter's club when a mood for YA fiction comes on me a couple times and those books are so boring!

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 21:55 (fourteen years ago) link

the beginning of all those SVH books is weirdly mesmerizing, with the details of how Jessica and Elizabeth have identical dimples and identical lavalieres that were given to them on their sixteenth birthday. i was never clear on what a lavaliere was.

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 21:57 (fourteen years ago) link

I know what a lavalier microphone is. It's the kind that clips onto your collar.

All the YA novels I read made me want to live in NYC - those girls were always going to museums, and literary circles, and doing investigative reporting or something exciting, and had cool boys that liked them even if they were pudgy and plain. For the life of me, I can't remember a single title, but I want to say they were all from the 70s.

fistula pumping action (sarahel), Sunday, 28 June 2009 21:58 (fourteen years ago) link

paula danziger wrote books like that, sarahel!

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 21:59 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah i read like a hundred babysitters club books and i always skipped chapter 2 because it was exactly the same in every book. not sure what i got out of them at all--they were mega boring. sweet valley high were better i guess but i don't remember them.

harbl, Sunday, 28 June 2009 21:59 (fourteen years ago) link

http://jezebel.com/assets/resources/2008/02/catgreen022208.jpg

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 21:59 (fourteen years ago) link

^^ Yes! Thanks!

fistula pumping action (sarahel), Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:00 (fourteen years ago) link

though i wanted to read what boys were reading in 4th-5th grade so i read goosebumps more, even though my teachers hated them for some reason

harbl, Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:00 (fourteen years ago) link

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51N9SNK8SBL.jpg

this cover is wack, though

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:00 (fourteen years ago) link

i vividly remember this
http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/images/n2/n11692.jpg

harbl, Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:01 (fourteen years ago) link

looooool that is not really a "saying," r. l. stine!

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:02 (fourteen years ago) link

xp harbl - I got in a fight with my bff at one point because I liked boys' sci-fi stuff and she liked Anne McCaffrey girly dragon sci-fi stuff, that just seemed to me like the girls-with-horses genre but translated into sci-fi/fantasy. Our relationship never completely recovered after that, though we're now pretty good friends on facebook.

fistula pumping action (sarahel), Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:02 (fourteen years ago) link

i forgot:

http://mrselderkinsclass.com/images/Basil_E_Frankweiler.jpg

A++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:06 (fourteen years ago) link

that is one of the best books ever tbh

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:07 (fourteen years ago) link

i was into SVH for sure, but it was a completely voyeuristic thing, like look at these girls who have everything i'll never have and who are completely perfect and enviable but essentially unrealistic

babysitters club were trash but i read all of them anyway! i remember one of the special edition ones (double thick) that was about going away to camp that i liked in particular. they hiked and stuff throughout, maybe thats why i liked it.

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:08 (fourteen years ago) link

ive got to reread it!!! xpost

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:08 (fourteen years ago) link

i remember that one and the one about winter vacation that was really thick. i dropped it in the bathtub.

harbl, Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:10 (fourteen years ago) link

i am about to go find my copy because i'm trying to remember a scene where claudia gives jamie a list of instructions for their plan to runaway and he reads it and then eats it! because he "likes complications," i think? <3 <3 <3

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:10 (fourteen years ago) link

also maryann was the only one in the club with a "steady boyfriend" (age 13)

harbl, Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:11 (fourteen years ago) link

claudia kishi had some clothes

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:11 (fourteen years ago) link

i know i read all these high-quality YA books but i can only remember babysitters' club

harbl, Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:12 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah stacey was diabetic

harbl, Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:12 (fourteen years ago) link

jessie was black

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:12 (fourteen years ago) link

yes, and stacey had curly blonde hair and was sliiightly chubby iirc?

claudia kishi!!!!

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:14 (fourteen years ago) link

was one supposed to be kind of the main one, the alpha girl, the standard?

if so was it kristy

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:15 (fourteen years ago) link

claudia kishi was the best one. she had, like, three-tiered socks!

xpost yeah that was kristy. she was a jock + bossy + the president

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:15 (fourteen years ago) link

i forgot about claudia and her wacky clothes, she was totally my favorite and i started stacking my socks to look like that too!!

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:16 (fourteen years ago) link

http://whatclaudiawore.blogspot.com/

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:16 (fourteen years ago) link

mary anne was shy and had glasses aka who cared about her, no one

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:16 (fourteen years ago) link

"She always wears the trendiest outfits. For instance, at our last meeting she was wearing layers - a shocking-pink tunic over a white shirt with pink and yellow umbrellas printed on it. Over the tunic was a wide, low-slung yellow belt with a pink plastic buckle. The shirt, but not the tunic, was tucked into a pair of black knickers, and below the knickers were yellow stockings."

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:17 (fourteen years ago) link

"Same old Claud, I thought as we trudged up our front steps. Her hair was flowing down her back, pulled away from her face by a headband with a huge pink rose attached to it. She was wearing a long, oversized black-and-white sweater, skin-tight black leggings, pink-and-black socks, and black ballet slippers. Her jewelry was new, and I could tell she'd made it herself. You know those things about a best friend. Her necklace was a string of glazed beads that she'd probably made in her pottery class. And from her ears dangled an alarming number of plastic charms attached to gold hoops."

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:18 (fourteen years ago) link

so cooool

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:19 (fourteen years ago) link

dawn i always pictured being beautiful, didnt she fall in love with her own brother or something

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:19 (fourteen years ago) link

It's her clothes that amaze me, though. (I think they amaze everyone.) Claud mixes and matches the weirdest stuff and comes up with the coolest outfits. Like a loose blouse with a fake coat of arms on it worn over a very short black skirt. Around her waist, a scarf. On her feet, short black boots. Dangling from her ears, dinosaurs. And her hair might be piled on top of her head and held in place with hairpins that look like seahorses. She combines all this stuff - and she looks fantastic."

^^Mary Ann's POV. i like how she's amazed by black boots. "get this, on her feet---BOOTS!"

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:20 (fourteen years ago) link

haha mary anne was younger though, she probably wore, like, keds

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:22 (fourteen years ago) link

wait i was thinking of mallory

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:22 (fourteen years ago) link

and she had a really strict dad who wouldn't let her pierce her ears, i think.

xpost yeah mallory was younger, mary ann had a strict dad.

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:23 (fourteen years ago) link

Totally stacked socks after reading bc!
Xpost

Gah I can't keep up on fone :(

tehresa, Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:23 (fourteen years ago) link

http://i15.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/c9/b6/d0c1_1.JPG

this is i think the one i loved

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:24 (fourteen years ago) link

hang up u call imo

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:24 (fourteen years ago) link

3. Mary Anne's Big Break-up - Mary Anne decides to break up with Logan due to their growing incompatible interests and values.

hahha, namely that he was gay

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:25 (fourteen years ago) link

i am going to reread these

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:25 (fourteen years ago) link

haha i totally wore cutoffs over black tights because of kishi on the cover of the new york special edition

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:27 (fourteen years ago) link

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/images/n31/n155634.jpg

some jealous hoes imo

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:28 (fourteen years ago) link

ha totally! they don't have old mary anne to kick around anymore.

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:29 (fourteen years ago) link

sorry i got beautiful and stole u BFs bitches

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:29 (fourteen years ago) link

*quits babbysitters club

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:30 (fourteen years ago) link

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_YNT6kBPnhgg/SVL5yEZL9vI/AAAAAAAAALc/PM-2yuTtlZY/s400/claud.jpg

haha claudia being welcomed to womanhood imo

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:32 (fourteen years ago) link

oh good! i couldn't remember claudia having a boyfriend at any time and i was wondering wtf was wrong with those boys anway.

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:34 (fourteen years ago) link

remember when dawn found a secret part of the underground railroad in her parents' house? also she moved to california for a while. i think they called it "sunny california"

harbl, Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:42 (fourteen years ago) link

or like whenever they mentioned she was from california it was like "that's right, sunny california," and that made me think california was like a magical place only the coolest people could go to

harbl, Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:42 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah, Dawn was also the one who was unfazed by everything because of her cool California attitude.

horseshoe, Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:45 (fourteen years ago) link

we have smoething in common with harbl!!!!!!!

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:49 (fourteen years ago) link

also there were babysitters club mysteries. one time claudia solved a bank robbery because she was taking a photography class and the clue was in one of her pictures. she "blew up" the photo by repeatedly taking pictures of it. she could have just done that while printing but i guess she didn't know how photography worked.

harbl, Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:50 (fourteen years ago) link

ha xp

harbl, Sunday, 28 June 2009 22:50 (fourteen years ago) link

I think I always liked Stacey and Claudia best. Dawn was a little too blonde or something?

tehresa, Sunday, 28 June 2009 23:00 (fourteen years ago) link

Holy shit you guys are on fire this afternoon. Must catch up. Think I liked Stacey and Claudia the best too.

Also, I don't really do the apologizing thing at work or in an academic setting. I think I tend to do it more in relationships and with friends. :-(

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Sunday, 28 June 2009 23:04 (fourteen years ago) link

I am feeling sad and bad for not knowing this thread was here hello ladies!

bro down syndrome (Trayce), Monday, 29 June 2009 01:33 (fourteen years ago) link

welcome TRAYCE!

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Monday, 29 June 2009 01:37 (fourteen years ago) link

Hello, hair friend!

tehresa, Monday, 29 June 2009 01:43 (fourteen years ago) link

we should have matching jackets or something. ...

incomprehensible Kool-Aid swallower (sarahel), Monday, 29 June 2009 01:44 (fourteen years ago) link

zoley, yes!

bro down syndrome (Trayce), Monday, 29 June 2009 01:57 (fourteen years ago) link

would wear

tehresa, Monday, 29 June 2009 02:02 (fourteen years ago) link

ha - was just going to say the same

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Monday, 29 June 2009 02:02 (fourteen years ago) link

Can we get that shit in pink, tho?

tehresa, Monday, 29 June 2009 02:59 (fourteen years ago) link

yes, there should be a pink with black option

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Monday, 29 June 2009 02:59 (fourteen years ago) link

Perfect

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Monday, 29 June 2009 03:04 (fourteen years ago) link

Wd wear with rollerderby smash outfit ++

bro down syndrome (Trayce), Monday, 29 June 2009 04:26 (fourteen years ago) link

i read a lot of BC books but don't remember them really; SVH i LOVED but only read a handful cuz they were always checked out from the library. i REALLY loved c. pike books, and also lois duncan and bridge to terabithia and others of that kind.

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Monday, 29 June 2009 04:48 (fourteen years ago) link

I cried when I read bridge to terabithia when I was a kid and also when I watched the movie a few months ago.

tehresa, Monday, 29 June 2009 07:13 (fourteen years ago) link

should we also have a blingy option for the jackets?

incomprehensible Kool-Aid swallower (sarahel), Monday, 29 June 2009 07:59 (fourteen years ago) link

blingee option

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Monday, 29 June 2009 09:38 (fourteen years ago) link

god bridge to terabithia is the saddest book.

horseshoe, Monday, 29 June 2009 11:11 (fourteen years ago) link

Hello thread!

I was mad stuck on everything Marguerite Henry ever wrote, and had the plastic model horses to prove it.

bad hijab (suzy), Monday, 29 June 2009 11:21 (fourteen years ago) link

!

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Monday, 29 June 2009 11:58 (fourteen years ago) link

WELCOME SUZY

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Monday, 29 June 2009 11:58 (fourteen years ago) link

Hi Suzy! :-)

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Monday, 29 June 2009 12:18 (fourteen years ago) link

Thread, as if I needed further activities fiendishly designed to promote procrasturbation here.

ooh just found my old paperbacks of FREAKY FRIDAY and FOXES with Jodie Foster covers, fuck a Lohan...

bad hijab (suzy), Monday, 29 June 2009 12:21 (fourteen years ago) link

Oh that's weird - I was just talking about Freaky Friday last night! When I was little I had a copy of that on VHS and I think I watched that movie at least a couple times a week for . . . years. Annabel! Fuck a Lohan indeed.

☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Monday, 29 June 2009 12:23 (fourteen years ago) link

Right now I am waiting for a person from the building managers to come over with various colors/finishes for kitchen cupboards and the like. Have been waiting for 90 mins of a two-hour window, argh. OTOH can wait on balcony with lots of sun until they turn up.

LOLirony corner: it was about six months ago I put finishing touches on kitchen decoration; now have creeping dread-suction that the contractors my landlord uses will fuck everything up six ways from Sunday.

bad hijab (suzy), Monday, 29 June 2009 12:32 (fourteen years ago) link

just used that nair stuff on my armpits and now they are two burning itching pits of hell

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Monday, 29 June 2009 16:58 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah i was gonna say my legs got mad itchy the other night after i used this stuff but for the most part it worked really well and lasted longer than normal nair? maybe it's all psychological.

tehresa, Monday, 29 June 2009 19:10 (fourteen years ago) link

armpits. wow, u brave.

tehresa, Monday, 29 June 2009 19:10 (fourteen years ago) link

still fuckin hurts

had to spray some lidocaine on that shit

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Tuesday, 30 June 2009 02:44 (fourteen years ago) link

I've always used the one for sensitive skin and never had any problems. Maybe you can try that one next time.

ENBB, Tuesday, 30 June 2009 03:48 (fourteen years ago) link

I've been able to use Nair depil on even more erm sensitive areas before without tooooo much hassle... but its not the most comfy thing ever >_>

bro down syndrome (Trayce), Tuesday, 30 June 2009 04:21 (fourteen years ago) link

Veet sensitive has always treated me right

tehresa, Tuesday, 30 June 2009 05:28 (fourteen years ago) link

Actually yes Veet not Nair.

bro down syndrome (Trayce), Wednesday, 1 July 2009 06:14 (fourteen years ago) link

i couldn't even put goddamn deodorant under my arms today - still burning like a mofo

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Wednesday, 1 July 2009 06:16 (fourteen years ago) link

:(

tehresa, Wednesday, 1 July 2009 06:16 (fourteen years ago) link

i got a haircut

harbl, Thursday, 2 July 2009 17:33 (fourteen years ago) link

can we see it or

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Thursday, 2 July 2009 17:41 (fourteen years ago) link

nah

harbl, Thursday, 2 July 2009 17:50 (fourteen years ago) link

she means her private hair

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Thursday, 2 July 2009 17:52 (fourteen years ago) link

she cut it into a triforce shape

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Thursday, 2 July 2009 17:52 (fourteen years ago) link

LOL

harbl, Thursday, 2 July 2009 17:54 (fourteen years ago) link

HAHAHAHAHA

some american borad (ENBB), Thursday, 2 July 2009 17:56 (fourteen years ago) link

nah i mean the guy put so much gunk in it i look like a power lesbian right now lol

harbl, Thursday, 2 July 2009 17:57 (fourteen years ago) link

wowwwww

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Thursday, 2 July 2009 17:57 (fourteen years ago) link

i'm talking about the hair on my head btw
he also asked me if i wanted to look like a female golfer and i was like no

harbl, Thursday, 2 July 2009 17:59 (fourteen years ago) link

He didn't!

some american borad (ENBB), Thursday, 2 July 2009 18:00 (fourteen years ago) link

a specific one or just "would you like to look like a female golfer???" i just died btw

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Thursday, 2 July 2009 18:00 (fourteen years ago) link

he was jk
actually i think what he said was "oh so you don't want to look like a female golfer"

harbl, Thursday, 2 July 2009 18:01 (fourteen years ago) link

haircut here too, heatwave means I got it cut a little bit shorter than usual and it has gone vv curly.

going vogue (suzy), Thursday, 2 July 2009 18:34 (fourteen years ago) link

trying not to cut my hair for a while tbh but i could use a bang trim and i've lost the courage to do it myself like i used to.

tehresa, Thursday, 2 July 2009 18:52 (fourteen years ago) link

I think I'm fortunate that my hair is curly in that regard - because it's fairly easy to camouflage errors in bangs trimming ... which I do make.

incomprehensible Kool-Aid swallower (sarahel), Thursday, 2 July 2009 18:55 (fourteen years ago) link

i need a haircut too, guys!

horseshoe, Thursday, 2 July 2009 19:07 (fourteen years ago) link

one thing i have found since i went short with my hair last year is that it is always in danger of becoming a mullet! like, a month will go by after a haircut and there will be incipient mullet-ness. it seems like kind of a scam, short hair.

horseshoe, Thursday, 2 July 2009 19:08 (fourteen years ago) link

You need to get it cut so much more often which makes it that much more $$ and high maintenance in terms of upkeep.

some american borad (ENBB), Thursday, 2 July 2009 19:09 (fourteen years ago) link

Erica, i hope this doesn't creep you out but sometimes when i am having a good hair day (my hair is roughly your hair length) i think, "my hair looks like Erica's today!"

horseshoe, Thursday, 2 July 2009 19:10 (fourteen years ago) link

xp i know, it sucksssssss
my hair is way too thick to let go as much as i do though (mostly to save $$ and because i like getting haircuts only slightly more than i like going to the dr), i should pay more attention to it. i feel so much better now!

harbl, Thursday, 2 July 2009 19:12 (fourteen years ago) link

i am jealous of boys because they can just buzz it themselves and not care

harbl, Thursday, 2 July 2009 19:12 (fourteen years ago) link

xp - mine's really thick, too - in order to keep it relatively short and not look like the Dilbert triangle-hair lady, I shave the back and underneath. I've had basically the same haircut for 18 years.

incomprehensible Kool-Aid swallower (sarahel), Thursday, 2 July 2009 19:14 (fourteen years ago) link

Aw, HS that's really sweet. I'll tell you what though - i'm having a shitty hair SUMMER. We've had so much rain that even though my hair is normally pin straight, the ends keep doing this weird winging out thing because of the humidity. It sucks cause it's not long enough to put in a ponytail so I'm stuck with like . . . oddly feathered looking hair 1/2 the time.

some american borad (ENBB), Thursday, 2 July 2009 19:15 (fourteen years ago) link

xxp thinning shears work well, too.

incomprehensible Kool-Aid swallower (sarahel), Thursday, 2 July 2009 19:15 (fourteen years ago) link

my hair turns into a giant pillow when it's humid, u should see it

harbl, Thursday, 2 July 2009 19:16 (fourteen years ago) link

Damn - I'm glad I don't live where it's humid.

incomprehensible Kool-Aid swallower (sarahel), Thursday, 2 July 2009 19:17 (fourteen years ago) link

Yeah seriously. If the humidity is doing this to MY hair it must be hell for people who actually have wavy/curly hair.

some american borad (ENBB), Thursday, 2 July 2009 19:18 (fourteen years ago) link

now that my hair is somewhat longer i am hoping that living in a humid climate will make it wave better but probably it will just do stupid weird things and frizz.

tehresa, Thursday, 2 July 2009 19:18 (fourteen years ago) link

i look like i am in deep purple when it is humid

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Thursday, 2 July 2009 21:02 (fourteen years ago) link

http://www.thegauntlet.com/photo/Deep%20Purple.jpg

fourth from left

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Thursday, 2 July 2009 21:03 (fourteen years ago) link

tbh

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Thursday, 2 July 2009 21:03 (fourteen years ago) link

If I didn't thin/shave the back - I'd look like the 2nd from the left dude.

incomprehensible Kool-Aid swallower (sarahel), Thursday, 2 July 2009 21:13 (fourteen years ago) link

anyone else?

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Thursday, 2 July 2009 21:14 (fourteen years ago) link

if i go without a haircut for like five days i look like http://www.hearya.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/richard-marx.jpg

horseshoe, Thursday, 2 July 2009 21:16 (fourteen years ago) link

I've had mullet-phobia since 1987. That summer, before I started 8th grade, my family took it's every-three-years-or-so vacation to the UK, and while I was there, I got a haircut. It was a mullet. It was a cute haircut for about 2 hours. I spent a couple years growing it out. Since then, I've always cut my hair long in front and shorter in back to avoid even the remotest possibility of mullet.

My cousin went to Europe a few summers back, and she and the two or three others she was travelling with all got haircuts - they all got mullet-ed except for her, but she had to be extremely firm about it.

Is it some anti-foreigner thing, or do European hairdressers give mullets to everyone?

incomprehensible Kool-Aid swallower (sarahel), Thursday, 2 July 2009 21:24 (fourteen years ago) link

Fashion mullets were really big in the UK a few years back actually.

some american borad (ENBB), Thursday, 2 July 2009 21:26 (fourteen years ago) link

my sister actually really rocked a bowie mullet ~2004

tehresa, Thursday, 2 July 2009 21:28 (fourteen years ago) link

one of my good female friends had a subtle mullet a couple years ago ... I felt like we weren't close enough at the time for me to bring up its essential mullet nature.

incomprehensible Kool-Aid swallower (sarahel), Thursday, 2 July 2009 21:30 (fourteen years ago) link

did it look good, tz??

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Thursday, 2 July 2009 21:31 (fourteen years ago) link

it was amazing. and i bleached her and put in some teal and purple streaks. it was kind of great.

tehresa, Thursday, 2 July 2009 21:39 (fourteen years ago) link

!!!! do u have pics

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Thursday, 2 July 2009 21:41 (fourteen years ago) link

hmmm somewhere. i had a different computer then.
i will look.

tehresa, Thursday, 2 July 2009 21:43 (fourteen years ago) link

okay that sounds amazing.

horseshoe, Thursday, 2 July 2009 21:50 (fourteen years ago) link

pics pls stat

some american borad (ENBB), Thursday, 2 July 2009 21:52 (fourteen years ago) link

yes!

incomprehensible Kool-Aid swallower (sarahel), Thursday, 2 July 2009 21:54 (fourteen years ago) link

pics or it didn't happen

going vogue (suzy), Thursday, 2 July 2009 22:53 (fourteen years ago) link

I wd have all this too thick hair pls, mine is so thin and wispy and useless, and now its GRAY in addition, it wont do anything but like there like a bored housewife.

bro down syndrome (Trayce), Friday, 3 July 2009 06:18 (fourteen years ago) link

speaking of, i bought this why bc the bottle look intersting
http://wine.psydr.com/wine/images/2006_mad_housewife_cabernet_sauvignon.jpg

tehresa, Friday, 3 July 2009 06:20 (fourteen years ago) link

Speaking of mullets this was a big style in Melbourne in the 70s (kind of mullet but a little different)

http://www.rennieellis.com.au/sharpies.html

bro down syndrome (Trayce), Friday, 3 July 2009 06:22 (fourteen years ago) link

xpost hahaha that wine label is awesome!

bro down syndrome (Trayce), Friday, 3 July 2009 06:22 (fourteen years ago) link

the back says something about sneaking into the closet for me time or something silly

tehresa, Friday, 3 July 2009 06:27 (fourteen years ago) link

Mothers little helper =)

bro down syndrome (Trayce), Friday, 3 July 2009 06:29 (fourteen years ago) link

"somewhere near the cool shadows of the laundry room. past the litter box and between the plastic yard toys. this is your time. time to enjoy a moment to yourself. a moment without the madness. the dishes can wait. dinner be damned."

tehresa, Friday, 3 July 2009 06:35 (fourteen years ago) link

^^^the label actually says this

i wish i was a wine label copywriter

tehresa, Friday, 3 July 2009 06:35 (fourteen years ago) link

"Get drunk so you can pretend you dont have kids!"

bro down syndrome (Trayce), Friday, 3 July 2009 06:44 (fourteen years ago) link

second from right in sharpies pic looks awesome

i think i posted about this before, but once i was drunk in nashville and tried to give myself gram parsons' haircut. it turned out to just be a huge bang cut very crazy. bandmate upon first viewing of haircut: "this is grim"

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Friday, 3 July 2009 15:17 (fourteen years ago) link

that was in march btw

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Friday, 3 July 2009 15:17 (fourteen years ago) link

"grim parsons" <---new JBR display name!

going vogue (suzy), Friday, 3 July 2009 15:27 (fourteen years ago) link

When I was little I let my best friend cut my bangs and well . . . it did not go well. I started crying and she handed me a pair of sunglasses and told me to put them on. When I did she said, "Oh it's ok now! You look like the lady in Top Gun!".

some american borad (ENBB), Friday, 3 July 2009 15:29 (fourteen years ago) link

haha @ grim parsons, that will make a very fitting nickname for a guy in my town, thank you

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Friday, 3 July 2009 15:31 (fourteen years ago) link

There is one in every town.

going vogue (suzy), Friday, 3 July 2009 15:39 (fourteen years ago) link

http://www.newmoonmovie.org/images/200904211015.jpg

http://media.photobucket.com/image/edward%20cullen%20gifs/BrianaJuarez/edward-cullen-piano.gif

http://img7.imageshack.us/i/mybannerglitter614ecfd6.gif/

<blink><font style='background-image: url(http://misc.inexistent.org/sparkle/sparkles/glitter15.gif);color:inherit; padding:5px; font-family: inherit; font-size: 70px;'><font color='#ff1a1a'>H</font><font color='#ff5b1a'>E</font><font color='#ff911a'>Y</font><font color='#ffc71a'> </font><font color='#ffc71a'>G</font><font color='#f7ff1a'>I</font><font color='#b6ff1a'>R</font><font color='#70ff1a'>L</font><font color='#1aff70'>Z</font><font color='#1affb1'>!</font><font color='#1affe7'>!</font><font color='#1ac1ff'>!</font><font color='#1a7bff'>!</font><font color='#2a1aff'>!</font><font color='#861aff'>!</font><font color='#c11aff'>!</font><font color='#ff1afd'>!</font><font color='#ff1abc'>!</font><font color='#ff1a60'>!</font><font color='#ff1a1a'></font></font></blink>

homosexual II, Saturday, 4 July 2009 22:43 (fourteen years ago) link

i would like to welcome MANDEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Saturday, 4 July 2009 22:59 (fourteen years ago) link

OMG that Twilight fan painting. She's broken in half! :|

bro down syndrome (Trayce), Sunday, 5 July 2009 00:32 (fourteen years ago) link

torn between human world and vampire realm imo

carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Sunday, 5 July 2009 00:45 (fourteen years ago) link

are those pieces of her shirt wafting through the air, or are those supposed to be birds?

incomprehensible Kool-Aid swallower (sarahel), Sunday, 5 July 2009 00:56 (fourteen years ago) link

they are cardinalz

harbl, Sunday, 5 July 2009 01:24 (fourteen years ago) link

She looks like she's mackin on a corpse.

bro down syndrome (Trayce), Sunday, 5 July 2009 03:13 (fourteen years ago) link

OMG this thread!

Harriet the Spy is one of the best novels.

Does anyone like Norma Klein? In my favorite, one girl starts baby sitting for her science teacher, they have an affair & his wife dies. Her friend starts dating a someone from the debate team, and I think she ends up having an abortion.

tokyo rosemary, Monday, 6 July 2009 01:06 (fourteen years ago) link

If the humidity is doing this to MY hair it must be hell for people who actually have wavy/curly hair

I dunno, I like the way my hair gets crazy curly.

tokyo rosemary, Monday, 6 July 2009 01:10 (fourteen years ago) link

welcome TR!!!!!!!!!!

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Monday, 6 July 2009 02:10 (fourteen years ago) link

hello TR!

Tomorrow my onerous task is to interview four young, gifted and black supermodels about Michelle Obama. No Naomi, I said 'young'.

going vogue (suzy), Monday, 6 July 2009 16:33 (fourteen years ago) link

omg Norma Klein i loved her books! they were all grown-up 70s-sexy and they seemed super-progressive and kind of unbelievable to me.

horseshoe, Monday, 6 July 2009 19:56 (fourteen years ago) link

any other former readers of this here:
http://www.panopticist.com/graphics/sassy_april1992.jpg

incomprehensible Kool-Aid swallower (sarahel), Tuesday, 7 July 2009 19:56 (fourteen years ago) link

Nope.

But not someone who should be dead anyway (Laurel), Tuesday, 7 July 2009 19:59 (fourteen years ago) link

I had that issue Sassy but I think its the only issue I ever bought

I wish I was the royal trux (sunny successor), Tuesday, 7 July 2009 20:11 (fourteen years ago) link

oh and HI GIRLS

I wish I was the royal trux (sunny successor), Tuesday, 7 July 2009 20:13 (fourteen years ago) link

welcome!

incomprehensible Kool-Aid swallower (sarahel), Tuesday, 7 July 2009 20:14 (fourteen years ago) link

hi sunny!
i never read sassy but wau @ that cover!

tehresa, Tuesday, 7 July 2009 20:19 (fourteen years ago) link

I posted about Sassy upthread! :-) I think it was one with Juliana Hatfield on the cover.

\(^o\) (/o^)/ (ENBB), Tuesday, 7 July 2009 20:20 (fourteen years ago) link

no boys allowed in the room!!!!

:-)

\(^o\) (/o^)/ (ENBB), Tuesday, 7 July 2009 20:21 (fourteen years ago) link

the one w/ Juliana Hatfield had the awesome candy & junk food review.

'fritos smell like dogs'

tokyo rosemary, Tuesday, 7 July 2009 20:23 (fourteen years ago) link

I subscribed to the Simple Machines' Working Holiday series because it was in mentioned in "What Now" in Sassy.

tokyo rosemary, Tuesday, 7 July 2009 20:25 (fourteen years ago) link

I tried dyeing my hair with cranberry juice, and it didn't work at all.

Whenever I see Ian Svenonius' name, I will always think of him as the Sassiest Boy in America.

incomprehensible Kool-Aid swallower (sarahel), Tuesday, 7 July 2009 20:29 (fourteen years ago) link

sarahel, I always think the same thing about Ian S.

tokyo rosemary, Tuesday, 7 July 2009 20:45 (fourteen years ago) link

Thirded. Had to interview an editor from there once on Riot Grrrl in America.

going vogue (suzy), Tuesday, 7 July 2009 20:47 (fourteen years ago) link

I remember Iggy Pop doing an awesome advice column. It made me wish Iggy Pop was my dad.

incomprehensible Kool-Aid swallower (sarahel), Tuesday, 7 July 2009 20:52 (fourteen years ago) link

Sassy didnt exist in Aus I dont think, but we have Dolly which is possibly a similar thing (aimed at teen girls, lots of sex talk and boys and diet tips and etc)

lolsbury hill (Trayce), Wednesday, 8 July 2009 00:23 (fourteen years ago) link

i subscribed to sassy, and when it folded they replaced my subscription with YM

UGH!!!!!

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 8 July 2009 00:41 (fourteen years ago) link

(^!!!)

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 8 July 2009 00:53 (fourteen years ago) link

lollllll

tehresa, Wednesday, 8 July 2009 01:30 (fourteen years ago) link

I remember when that happened! It wasn't good.

\(^o\) (/o^)/ (ENBB), Wednesday, 8 July 2009 03:08 (fourteen years ago) link

I was soooo bummed out when Petersen bought Sassy.

tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, 8 July 2009 03:35 (fourteen years ago) link

can we talk about TAB

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Sunday, 12 July 2009 20:49 (fourteen years ago) link

the diet soda in the pink can or an acronym I'm not aware of?

faucet that ass (sarahel), Sunday, 12 July 2009 20:51 (fourteen years ago) link

the diet soda in the pink can, but lets come up with an acronym ASAP

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Sunday, 12 July 2009 20:52 (fourteen years ago) link

TUBULAR AND BABEALICIOUS

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Sunday, 12 July 2009 20:52 (fourteen years ago) link

Tricky Annoying Bras - I got a couple at H&M that were really cute, but they had this weird latching mechanism that was really annoying to work behind my back.

faucet that ass (sarahel), Sunday, 12 July 2009 20:55 (fourteen years ago) link

i had a long convo with a girl on nashville last night about bras, where do yours wear out first? where do you get yours and how much do they cost?, etc while a door guy was visibly annoyed by us. then she said "omg look at that girls butt, it sticks out so far" and he practically jumped a fence to look at it too

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Sunday, 12 July 2009 20:57 (fourteen years ago) link

anyway she said in re: wearing a bra out that she will pop a strap eventually, every time. this has never happened to me, mine will break, tear or otherwise wear out near the clasp(s) every time. we eventually came to the realization that this is due to how we put them on. she had some weird style of clasping it in the front around her belly, then turning it around and then flipping it up. all i do is put my arms through then clasp it in the back. different strokes!~!!!

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Sunday, 12 July 2009 20:59 (fourteen years ago) link

this happened to me once, but fairly soon after i bought it. i think it was just a crappily made bra.

tehresa, Sunday, 12 July 2009 21:02 (fourteen years ago) link

the seam holding the underwire in is always the first to go. Sometimes I work the wire back down, and forget that it had a problem until I wear it again ... and I'm sitting at work with the wire poking me for a few hours.

faucet that ass (sarahel), Sunday, 12 July 2009 21:02 (fourteen years ago) link

oh man i always have that hapen within two seconds, i dont even count it i guess, haw! i jsut rip the wire out and continue to wear it.

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Sunday, 12 July 2009 21:03 (fourteen years ago) link

I should do that ... I don't think I'm ... er... big enough for it to be a problem.

faucet that ass (sarahel), Sunday, 12 July 2009 21:03 (fourteen years ago) link

did any of you ever "stuff"?

lol

also, speaking of unconventional bra-putting-on methods, my grandmother used to clasp her bra and then STEP INTO IT

she was crazy <3 and R.I.P.

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Sunday, 12 July 2009 21:05 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah i think this is from improper care but i have had underwires pop out or break a bunch of times. ugh hate that shit.

tehresa, Sunday, 12 July 2009 21:05 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah i once bought all these expensive bras and the shopgirl was like "never put a bra with underwire in the dryer!!!!"

haha, are u kidding me?

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Sunday, 12 July 2009 21:06 (fourteen years ago) link

i mean i do this all the time

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Sunday, 12 July 2009 21:06 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah, actually in the past two years or so i have been a lot better about that and only hand washing/hang drying.

tehresa, Sunday, 12 July 2009 21:07 (fourteen years ago) link

but then i feel like the detergent doesn't rinse out well.

tehresa, Sunday, 12 July 2009 21:07 (fourteen years ago) link

never stuffed ... I was the opposite ... I remember being temporarily traumatized when my mom dragged me to the department store to buy bras for the first time, but I was kinda a tomboy and was 8 or 9.

faucet that ass (sarahel), Sunday, 12 July 2009 21:09 (fourteen years ago) link

i never needed to stuff, lol

tehresa, Sunday, 12 July 2009 21:16 (fourteen years ago) link

me either lol and besides i wanted no boobs anyway

i was desperate to look like a guy until i was maybe 17. i used to bind myself with an ACE bandage

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Sunday, 12 July 2009 21:21 (fourteen years ago) link

I used to wear oversized shirts a lot ... but partly because that was the fashion - the big shirt, leggings/tight pants thing. I sucked at pegging pants. My current bf, I learned was a total pro at this.

faucet that ass (sarahel), Sunday, 12 July 2009 21:24 (fourteen years ago) link

sometimes i really miss t-shirt clips

tehresa, Sunday, 12 July 2009 21:24 (fourteen years ago) link

i was a little late for pegging pants, but my sister (nije) and brother did it

i wore big shirts and shorts and stuff but it was mostly for sports reasons, on my own time i did wear semi-raver pants, but that was because of.....i have no idea why i wore that. "i love the 90s"

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Sunday, 12 July 2009 21:26 (fourteen years ago) link

my friend is so nostalgic for the 90s. like she thinks the 90s were a good luck. i am so baffled by this. the 80s were aight. but the 90s were some mess of 80s leftovers + really horrible things.

tehresa, Sunday, 12 July 2009 21:27 (fourteen years ago) link

i look at my 90s self and shudder.
she is nostalgic for the calvin klein dresses and chunky loafers (not together, i hope). i get that... but i'm glad we've advanced somewhat.

tehresa, Sunday, 12 July 2009 21:28 (fourteen years ago) link

i dont know about a good look, but there were many LOL looks, more subtly lol than the 80s

and i love to lol

i love cK one btw, in fact i wore it today!

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Sunday, 12 July 2009 21:29 (fourteen years ago) link

I dunno - the 80s involved stirrup pants. Those things were horrible.

faucet that ass (sarahel), Sunday, 12 July 2009 21:30 (fourteen years ago) link

exactly, they are good to lol at but i wouldn't want them back.

tehresa, Sunday, 12 July 2009 21:30 (fourteen years ago) link

i used to LOVVVVE stirrup pants with stacked socks. oh yes.

tehresa, Sunday, 12 July 2009 21:31 (fourteen years ago) link

yes not more lol than the 80s, just more subtle about it is what i was saying

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Sunday, 12 July 2009 21:31 (fourteen years ago) link

xpost me too and now we are back to cluadia from the babbysitters clob

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Sunday, 12 July 2009 21:31 (fourteen years ago) link

yes!

tehresa, Sunday, 12 July 2009 21:32 (fourteen years ago) link

i used to LOVVVVE stirrup pants with stacked socks. oh yes.

I had a friend that would totally color-coordinate the stacked socks ... she'd wear a striped shirt, and the socks would be in the same alternating color pattern as the shirt. Definitely lol-worthy.

I remember getting bruises from those guess jeans with the side ankle zippers.

faucet that ass (sarahel), Sunday, 12 July 2009 21:34 (fourteen years ago) link

bruises?!

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Sunday, 12 July 2009 21:55 (fourteen years ago) link

i used to bind myself with an ACE bandage

wow

horseshoe, Sunday, 12 July 2009 22:02 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah, where the zipper cut into my skin. Maybe bruises isn't the best description.

faucet that ass (sarahel), Sunday, 12 July 2009 22:06 (fourteen years ago) link

Ohhhhh no, late '80s confession: I did the layered socks/stirrups thing but with certain variables like using different texture or thickness of the socks used in the layering. Ragstock in Minneapolis had tons of wool '60s ski pants which were $5 or $10 and we'd wear them with massive sweaters (or layers of sweaters) and some kind of black boots. Or I'd head the other way and wear that with a white teeshirt and electric blue/black smoking jacket.

These strange '90s styles of which you speak? Closest I got to them was children's teeshirts under spaghetti strap dresses, or a cycling shorts/floral teeshirt from Benetton combo circa '90. My grunge era outfit was red Massey Ferguson jacket, plaid trousers, white teeshirt, 13-hole Docs and plastic barrettes. Also from 1986-1993 my legs were not ever bare in a dress due to my discovery of Donna Karan black matte jersey tights, which are so bulletproof and long-lasting I still have five undamaged pairs.

going vogue (suzy), Sunday, 12 July 2009 22:33 (fourteen years ago) link

Roxy TAB is my all-time favorite soda. It can be so hard to find but if I do, I buy it immediately. I <3 Tab. It is all my mom drank when I was a kid so maybe that's part of it but god do I love that cancer causing goodness.

http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:W-OyzWWVBPeJTM:http://www.thecoca-colacompany.com/presscenter/img/imagebrands/downloads/lg_tab.jpg

Also, "open image in new tab" HA!

ENBB, Sunday, 12 July 2009 22:33 (fourteen years ago) link

children's teeshirts under spaghetti strap dresses

i loved this look, even though it looked terrible on me. there was an ILS thread about 90s fashion.

horseshoe, Sunday, 12 July 2009 22:35 (fourteen years ago) link

i've never even had TAB; where can i find it?

horseshoe, Sunday, 12 July 2009 22:35 (fourteen years ago) link

x-post I loved that look too. Also, babydoll dresses in general.

ENBB, Sunday, 12 July 2009 22:36 (fourteen years ago) link

Mandee it's a crapshoot really. Luckily my local grocery store carries it but many do not.

ENBB, Sunday, 12 July 2009 22:36 (fourteen years ago) link

http://www.whiteoakschool.com/storage/before-sunrise.jpg

horseshoe, Sunday, 12 July 2009 22:36 (fourteen years ago) link

YES!!!!!!! That might have been my favorite movie at the time of said dress wearing enough so that I'm pretty sure that's right before they encounter the two actors on the bridge where the one says "I'll be the cow"!

ENBB, Sunday, 12 July 2009 22:37 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah it is! also the next morning, she wears the spaghetti strap dress sans tshirt. both looks=a++++

horseshoe, Sunday, 12 July 2009 22:38 (fourteen years ago) link

it helps to look like julie delpy, i guess.

horseshoe, Sunday, 12 July 2009 22:38 (fourteen years ago) link

She has the right body for that kind of look. Oh god I used to think that guy making the cow horns was so funny.

ENBB, Sunday, 12 July 2009 22:40 (fourteen years ago) link

During that time I was liable to be dressed like a member of Elastica.

going vogue (suzy), Sunday, 12 July 2009 22:41 (fourteen years ago) link

a lot of early 90s for me was the baby doll dress or other vintage dress with combat boots.

thanks for the rec on the tights ... I rip the shit out of tights, and have pretty much only worn pants for the past x # years.

faucet that ass (sarahel), Sunday, 12 July 2009 22:42 (fourteen years ago) link

I don't think Donna Karan makes those tights any more, which is why I have pairs that are 20 years old o_0.

TABIO (expensive) and New Look (better and cheap) make the best bulletproof tights in 2009, TABIO in zillions of colours.

going vogue (suzy), Sunday, 12 July 2009 22:47 (fourteen years ago) link

so bulletproof and long-lasting I still have five undamaged pairs.

!!!

ENBB, I saw you mention TAB on another thread which is what inspired me to bring it up here.

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Sunday, 12 July 2009 22:56 (fourteen years ago) link

My mom drank it too!

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Sunday, 12 July 2009 22:56 (fourteen years ago) link

Best pair of tights I have (they are too fried to wear but too cool to toss) are some spandex Hokusai via Deee-Lite with black seams up the back, but actually they look stolen from Bjork.

Also in other Donna Karan news I still mourn that day in 1996 when they discontinued Chaos, last bottle I bought was in 2001, last I saw in a perfume rarities stand in Mpls for $150 a year later. BOO.

going vogue (suzy), Sunday, 12 July 2009 23:02 (fourteen years ago) link

I have never smelled it. What was it like?

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Sunday, 12 July 2009 23:05 (fourteen years ago) link

i thought Donna Karan rereleased Chaos recently, along with Black Cashmere, which is a favorite of mine.

horseshoe, Sunday, 12 July 2009 23:06 (fourteen years ago) link

children's teeshirts under spaghetti strap dresses, or a cycling shorts/floral teeshirt from Benetton combo circa '90

yes! see also: bike shorts with ruffly skirts over them!

tehresa, Sunday, 12 July 2009 23:06 (fourteen years ago) link

also my mom never drank tab and wouldn't let us bc she was scared of teh cancer.

tehresa, Sunday, 12 July 2009 23:07 (fourteen years ago) link

what a world!!!

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Sunday, 12 July 2009 23:07 (fourteen years ago) link

oh btw tez:

i FINALLY received your postcard today, in fact i probably received it long ago but it was too small to be seen in my WEIRD mailbox. i loled so hard at it. oh god

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Sunday, 12 July 2009 23:08 (fourteen years ago) link

omg! wow! i was so worried you would never get it and all my clever work would go to waste!!!

momrza was really confused about why i insisted on taking a picture of her while reading this book:

tehresa, Sunday, 12 July 2009 23:11 (fourteen years ago) link

but she humored me anyway! sign of a grebt mom <3

tehresa, Sunday, 12 July 2009 23:12 (fourteen years ago) link

aw i cant see it at work

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Sunday, 12 July 2009 23:13 (fourteen years ago) link

try now :D

tehresa, Sunday, 12 July 2009 23:17 (fourteen years ago) link

sorry to derail

tehresa, Sunday, 12 July 2009 23:17 (fourteen years ago) link

s'ok tza's mom can be in room.

faucet that ass (sarahel), Sunday, 12 July 2009 23:18 (fourteen years ago) link

<3<3<3 momrza

(how did u do that????)

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Sunday, 12 July 2009 23:18 (fourteen years ago) link

i uploaded to photobucket and then used my magic powers to replace the image

tehresa, Sunday, 12 July 2009 23:19 (fourteen years ago) link

but usually all pics are links to me on 1p3

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Sunday, 12 July 2009 23:19 (fourteen years ago) link

oh yeah i think it's something about the editing... maybe if you insert while in edit mode it shows because it knows a mod did it and it's a trustworthy pic? bc i can see it too, and everything is always a link to me everywhere unless i use different login.

tehresa, Sunday, 12 July 2009 23:21 (fourteen years ago) link

james franco fell asleep in class lol wkiw ws wesw

http://mygmablogs.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/0310_james_franco_sleeping.jpg

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Sunday, 12 July 2009 23:22 (fourteen years ago) link

omg <3

tehresa, Sunday, 12 July 2009 23:24 (fourteen years ago) link

james franco has a younger brother?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Sunday, 12 July 2009 23:25 (fourteen years ago) link

btw
http://www.thundersquee.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/ben_kingsley_02.jpg

<3 for all time

tehresa, Sunday, 12 July 2009 23:25 (fourteen years ago) link

nm hes not hot xpost

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Sunday, 12 July 2009 23:25 (fourteen years ago) link

hoos you are still not allowed

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Sunday, 12 July 2009 23:45 (fourteen years ago) link

that guy

tehresa, Sunday, 12 July 2009 23:47 (fourteen years ago) link

which guy?

faucet that ass (sarahel), Sunday, 12 July 2009 23:53 (fourteen years ago) link

the dancing guy from the harbl thread?

faucet that ass (sarahel), Sunday, 12 July 2009 23:53 (fourteen years ago) link

it must kind of suck to be james franco's unhot brother.

horseshoe, Monday, 13 July 2009 00:09 (fourteen years ago) link

fuck ... that Starbucks coffee cup reminds me of this story a friend of mine was telling me at a BBQ yesterday about pissing in a starbucks cup and making this guy drink it.

faucet that ass (sarahel), Monday, 13 July 2009 00:09 (fourteen years ago) link

maybe he has a great personality, horseshoe

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Monday, 13 July 2009 00:12 (fourteen years ago) link

lol yes maybe he is indifferent to the pity of shallow bitches.

horseshoe, Monday, 13 July 2009 00:13 (fourteen years ago) link

lol

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3181/3044535297_a3f7186e72.jpg

does he know????!??!?!!!

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Monday, 13 July 2009 00:16 (fourteen years ago) link

he had some weird style of clasping it in the front around her belly, then turning it around and then flipping it up

^^^^ dude i thought this was how everyone does it!

re 90s fashion: i was so incredibly unfashionable, even for the 90s. my mum wouldn't buy me clothes, and when i started working she wouldn't let me spend any of my $$$. but i had one of those long spag strap dresses which i ADORED and an old brown cardi that was my mum's and little heeled tan suede lace-up ankle boots: i lived in this one outfit.

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Monday, 13 July 2009 00:20 (fourteen years ago) link

i have terrible terrible fashion sense, but i do get a tiny bit better every year. pretty sure i'm gonna be awesomely dressed by the time i'm 60.

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Monday, 13 July 2009 00:20 (fourteen years ago) link

oh youll be one of those cool old ladies

gucci gone bonkers (roxymuzak), Monday, 13 July 2009 00:21 (fourteen years ago) link

ohhhhh BRAS: so i went to target yesterday and bought this great great bra in two colours: it has tiny thin straps (yay) and it kind of gives you the "70s boob" look that rrrrobyn referred to on the bra thread. i love it and it was like $11 but i'm pretty sure it will stretch out in 2 weeks.

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Monday, 13 July 2009 00:22 (fourteen years ago) link

she had some weird style of clasping it in the front around her belly, then turning it around and then flipping it up

that's how I put them on, too!

I wash my bras in a mesh bag on delicates cycle, and air dry them.

tokyo rosemary, Monday, 13 July 2009 13:47 (fourteen years ago) link

I tried the TAB energy drink a few years ago. Uh.

tokyo rosemary, Monday, 13 July 2009 13:48 (fourteen years ago) link

It was pink!

tokyo rosemary, Monday, 13 July 2009 13:48 (fourteen years ago) link

Ohhh Saturday I saw a girl wearing a jersey sundress with a black top and an open back, and she was wearing a white bra. TACKY.

tokyo rosemary, Monday, 13 July 2009 13:52 (fourteen years ago) link

Bra on backwards and then turn around, and what always wears out on mine is the elastic in the band. Have never "popped" a strap, altho occasionally pop a wire, which will then poke me every time I breathe until I give up and throw it away.

I remember watching one of my cousins try to hook her bra behind her and feeling really sorry for her that she didn't grow up w a mom who would get dressed while you watched, so you could see how grown-up women did things. (I spent a lot of my childhood aspiring to need a bra and understand perfume and to have heels that went tappy tappy on the wooden floors like my mom's velvet Florsheim concert shoes.)

But not someone who should be dead anyway (Laurel), Monday, 13 July 2009 14:01 (fourteen years ago) link

Does Florsheim make any women's shoes anymore? Their store at Herald Sq only carries men's and the website suggests "no". How sad.

But not someone who should be dead anyway (Laurel), Monday, 13 July 2009 14:03 (fourteen years ago) link

I have not much boobage so the only time I throw away bras is when they wear out or become dingy through multiple washes. I used to remove the wire from the underwire almost at moment of purchase.

going vogue (suzy), Monday, 13 July 2009 14:06 (fourteen years ago) link

Really? Man, I love underwires.

But not someone who should be dead anyway (Laurel), Monday, 13 July 2009 14:08 (fourteen years ago) link

I remember watching one of my cousins try to hook her bra behind her and feeling really sorry for her that she didn't grow up w a mom who would get dressed while you watched, so you could see how grown-up women did things

I always hook mine from behind! I've never done the front flip it around thing.

ENBB, Monday, 13 July 2009 14:12 (fourteen years ago) link

I guess the underwire used to really YEOWCH so I avoided it. On Tuesday I handled those silicon 'chicken fillets', which despite having the same bra size since first time I read 'Are You There God, It's Me Margaret' and thus in theoretical need, I found EWWWWWW and would never use.

going vogue (suzy), Monday, 13 July 2009 14:18 (fourteen years ago) link

They call them chicken cutlets here which always grosses me out everytime I heaar it.

tokyo rosemary, Monday, 13 July 2009 14:22 (fourteen years ago) link

It was even LOLweirder to know that in 2009 the cutlets are only Caucasian and manufacturers don't make them to blend against black skin.

going vogue (suzy), Monday, 13 July 2009 14:26 (fourteen years ago) link

i once got this strapless bra that like, adheres to your boobs - no band... it just sticks on and then you clasp in the front middle to make cleavage? i didn't end up using it because i found a different one for the dress, but i still have it. i am scared of it. anyway, the cups were sort of like those cutlets.

tehresa, Monday, 13 July 2009 19:57 (fourteen years ago) link

I haven't heard of these cutlets - pics please?

faucet that ass (sarahel), Monday, 13 July 2009 20:24 (fourteen years ago) link

yes that is the bra

tehresa, Monday, 13 July 2009 20:33 (fourteen years ago) link

they look more like sashimi than chicken cutlets imo

faucet that ass (sarahel), Monday, 13 July 2009 20:39 (fourteen years ago) link

i would not want to eat fish that color

tehresa, Monday, 13 July 2009 21:44 (fourteen years ago) link

it's the color of white tuna

faucet that ass (sarahel), Monday, 13 July 2009 21:50 (fourteen years ago) link

Can we just agree that putting silicone right up against your skin to give you fake tits is gross? And handling it is even grosser?

But not someone who should be dead anyway (Laurel), Monday, 13 July 2009 21:51 (fourteen years ago) link

um, white tuna is like my favorite of all the sashimis but i don't think it is that color.

tehresa, Monday, 13 July 2009 21:51 (fourteen years ago) link

I can agree with that ... I also find the concept of putting white tuna sushi against your skin in the quest for bigger boobage = gross.

xp there's some sashimi - I think it's nigiri - that is that color.

faucet that ass (sarahel), Monday, 13 July 2009 21:53 (fourteen years ago) link

here are some white tunas from gis

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2192/2017370873_73956308c8.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1276/533636257_9bd38a1250.jpg

tehresa, Monday, 13 July 2009 21:55 (fourteen years ago) link

the difference in color makes me think one place is frontin' on the authenticity of their white tuna.

tehresa, Monday, 13 July 2009 21:55 (fourteen years ago) link

or is there really that much variance in color in the same fish?

too bad steve shasta can't post in this thread to tell us.

tehresa, Monday, 13 July 2009 21:55 (fourteen years ago) link

i dont get who girls that buy these are trying to fool. i mean if its to snag a guy im assuming hes going to be v disappointed at some point.

I wish I was the royal trux (sunny successor), Monday, 13 July 2009 23:25 (fourteen years ago) link

gosh i just really want sushi now

tehresa, Tuesday, 14 July 2009 00:38 (fourteen years ago) link

last pic I posted = yellowtail, not white tuna

faucet that ass (sarahel), Tuesday, 14 July 2009 00:47 (fourteen years ago) link

I kind of want an actual chicken cutlet sandwich.

tokyo rosemary, Tuesday, 14 July 2009 01:07 (fourteen years ago) link

And am sorely tempted to post pictures of Meat Joy, but they seem to be a bit NSFW.

tokyo rosemary, Tuesday, 14 July 2009 01:07 (fourteen years ago) link

I kind of want an actual chicken cutlet sandwich.

― tokyo rosemary, Monday, July 13, 2009 9:07 PM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

horseshoe, Tuesday, 14 July 2009 01:21 (fourteen years ago) link

I think I am going to get chicken cutlet salad tomorrow for dinner.

tokyo rosemary, Tuesday, 14 July 2009 01:37 (fourteen years ago) link

i'm gonna get some sushi at the whole foods ... or at least wander around for half an hour hunting free samples and enjoying the air conditioning.

faucet that ass (sarahel), Tuesday, 14 July 2009 02:40 (fourteen years ago) link

just don't get sushi from trader joes - it's BAD

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Tuesday, 14 July 2009 02:45 (fourteen years ago) link

married to a limping, crescent-shaped aberration (sarahel),

thought it said crescent-shaped abortion and was going, aw thats cute ^_^

it works, i have done it and it is fun (harbl), Wednesday, 15 July 2009 01:54 (fourteen years ago) link

fixed!

well I'm married to a limping, crescent-shaped abortion (sarahel), Wednesday, 15 July 2009 01:56 (fourteen years ago) link

:)

it works, i have done it and it is fun (harbl), Wednesday, 15 July 2009 01:57 (fourteen years ago) link

For Roxy:

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c287/expatrica/franco.jpg

(sorry for boob) (ENBB), Sunday, 19 July 2009 20:03 (fourteen years ago) link

dang

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Sunday, 19 July 2009 20:14 (fourteen years ago) link

right?

(sorry for boob) (ENBB), Sunday, 19 July 2009 20:14 (fourteen years ago) link

so pretty

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Sunday, 19 July 2009 20:15 (fourteen years ago) link

love a good pair of eyebrows

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Sunday, 19 July 2009 20:16 (fourteen years ago) link

my chest feels tight

dont blaze me dro (roxymuzak), Sunday, 19 July 2009 20:19 (fourteen years ago) link

that man has lovely cheekbones.

well I'm married to a limping, crescent-shaped abortion (sarahel), Sunday, 19 July 2009 20:24 (fourteen years ago) link

Oooooh well done Roxy, well done.

(sorry for boob) (ENBB), Monday, 20 July 2009 06:22 (fourteen years ago) link

that grass one is squee!

tehresa, Monday, 20 July 2009 06:24 (fourteen years ago) link

Hi there. I am feeling extra girly today because I am carrying around a bunch of PREMARIN samples in my purse after a visit to the gyn. To be on both BCP and HRT seems kinda o_O but gyn says it could help with the estrogen-deprivation headaches.

quincie, Monday, 20 July 2009 17:33 (fourteen years ago) link

hey there quincie!

because i hate us and want us to fail (daria-g), Monday, 20 July 2009 17:52 (fourteen years ago) link

Hi!!!

quincie, Monday, 20 July 2009 18:23 (fourteen years ago) link

welcome QUINCIE!!!!!!

dont blaze me dro (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 21 July 2009 00:16 (fourteen years ago) link

hello pretties

estela, Tuesday, 21 July 2009 00:22 (fourteen years ago) link

estela is here! yay!

i think i was here before but <3 anyway

estela, Tuesday, 21 July 2009 00:29 (fourteen years ago) link

Roxy, this screamed C&P for Roxy so loudly:

http://www.asiagrocery.com/My_Pictures/HawFlakes_roll_wrapper.jpg

take a sad song and make it HARDCORE (suzy), Tuesday, 21 July 2009 13:32 (fourteen years ago) link

Haha, thanks!

Apparently I am hiking something called HAW RIDGE next week.

dont blaze me dro (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 21 July 2009 13:42 (fourteen years ago) link

Hey moderator, there's a boy in the room!

actually a decent question y'all fucked up with ironic bullshit answer (sarahel), Wednesday, 22 July 2009 11:56 (fourteen years ago) link

you know you're not the first who has tried. do you know what happened to the others? Do you?

actually a decent question y'all fucked up with ironic bullshit answer (sarahel), Wednesday, 22 July 2009 12:02 (fourteen years ago) link

boys are the most disgusting savages in the world imo

tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, 22 July 2009 13:07 (fourteen years ago) link

ok another quasi fucked up loves baby soft ad

http://11.media.tumblr.com/njE9Bw4rvhjp4p430jouzu8go1_500.jpg

dont blaze me dro (roxymuzak), Friday, 24 July 2009 21:31 (fourteen years ago) link

ewwwwww

Pancakes are one of my favorite ways to party. (ENBB), Friday, 24 July 2009 22:16 (fourteen years ago) link

maybe it was the quality time spent on the Charles Whitman wikipedia entry, but that caption instantaneously made me think of Ed Gein.

Now it's even creepier! I wouldn't have thought that possible. Can totally see why you thought of that though.

Pancakes are one of my favorite ways to party. (ENBB), Friday, 24 July 2009 22:19 (fourteen years ago) link

this is such a cute thread men, your weight

blobfish russian (harbl), Friday, 31 July 2009 03:14 (fourteen years ago) link

it is pretty cute!

tehresa, Friday, 31 July 2009 06:07 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah it is..

daria, actually (daria-g), Friday, 31 July 2009 06:59 (fourteen years ago) link

I'm worried for the guys that are six feet and higher that weigh 150 pounds or less. It makes me think of the Udo Keir demon baby from the Kingdom which had long scrawny arms and limbs that couldn't support themselves.

free jazz and mumia (sarahel), Friday, 31 July 2009 08:32 (fourteen years ago) link

I like that his teeth are bit ridiculous.

kid cruti (roxymuzak), Sunday, 2 August 2009 23:04 (fourteen years ago) link

http://voice.paly.net/media/images/2007-11-26-franco_1.jpg

apparently this is old friend visiting palo alto HS imploring students to give him their short stories so he can crib them for his "novel in the works"

kid cruti (roxymuzak), Sunday, 2 August 2009 23:17 (fourteen years ago) link

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/primrosehill/desario.jpg

i died

kid cruti (roxymuzak), Sunday, 2 August 2009 23:25 (fourteen years ago) link

rip indeed

User has been successfully banned for 6 days.

kid cruti (roxymuzak), Sunday, 2 August 2009 23:34 (fourteen years ago) link

http://whatclaudiawore.blogspot.com/

for all you BSC readers

tokyo rosemary, Friday, 14 August 2009 23:18 (fourteen years ago) link

cute

tehresa, Monday, 17 August 2009 20:32 (fourteen years ago) link

three weeks pass...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hy5iQubfV5s

tehresa, Thursday, 10 September 2009 04:05 (fourteen years ago) link

sup?

tehresa, Thursday, 10 September 2009 04:06 (fourteen years ago) link

illin atm, u?

Angus Young (roxymuzak), Thursday, 10 September 2009 04:29 (fourteen years ago) link

straight chillin'

also doing laundry.

tehresa, Thursday, 10 September 2009 05:16 (fourteen years ago) link

I just ate a gigantic plate of sausages and mashed potato and gravy that I made because I AM AWESOME

And now I am in a food coma.

Dearth Disco (Trayce), Thursday, 10 September 2009 11:28 (fourteen years ago) link

My kitchen and bathroom are being ripped out on Tuesday, so I am making a dinner party's worth of keema peas curry for the freezer/microwave. I'll only be able to nuke, toast or boil a kettle for the next whenever. ARGH.

lacoste intolerant (suzy), Thursday, 10 September 2009 11:44 (fourteen years ago) link

Thursday is Chinese Ladies (Plus Eddie) Lunch Day. I am an honorary Chinese lady, an honor I earned by happily chowing down everything the Chinese Ladies order, including numbingly hot Sichuan dishes and things involving duck blood. I look forward to Chinese Ladies (Plus Eddie) Lunch Day all week.

quincie, Thursday, 10 September 2009 13:08 (fourteen years ago) link

i should meet some chinese ladies!

tehresa, Thursday, 10 September 2009 16:41 (fourteen years ago) link

eatin a chicken salad sandwich, kind of wanting chinese food now.

horseshoe, Thursday, 10 September 2009 16:51 (fourteen years ago) link

Suzy: get an electric frypan! Theyre awesomely handy for no-kitchen situations, I find. In a pinch you can almost even cook pasta in them (its a little slow though).

Dearth Disco (Trayce), Thursday, 10 September 2009 23:34 (fourteen years ago) link

suzy - I can empathasize ... our bathroom got ripped out last summer ... we got the landlord to let us use the facilities in an open unit downstairs.

51 active users (sarahel), Thursday, 10 September 2009 23:37 (fourteen years ago) link

suzy that is pretty much how i live. its easy.

Hillary had Everest in his veins (sunny successor), Monday, 14 September 2009 02:35 (fourteen years ago) link

I am really dreading nearly three weeks of having a refrigerator, microwave, toaster and kettle setup in the main room of my studio, where I also sleep (sunny, don't you have rooms where you can go to avoid the construction carnage?). The building-wide renovations are also a surprise to me, as I spent a great deal of time and effort about eight months ago decorating my kitchen myself. We have a choice of fittings but my DIY effort is about a million times more Elle Deco than what's on offer, and that worries me. I don't generally do beige floors unless they are made of herringbone parquet.

After that I have to have horrible basal cell carcinoma removed from my back (it is small, I am not worried) and that's two weeks of NO REAL BATH while the stitches heal.

lacoste intolerant (suzy), Monday, 14 September 2009 09:12 (fourteen years ago) link

yuk, that sounds awful ...

Suggest Bander-Meinhof Complex (sarahel), Monday, 14 September 2009 09:15 (fourteen years ago) link

So gross. It is not fair to miss a bathtub during Fashion Week ;-).

lacoste intolerant (suzy), Monday, 14 September 2009 09:19 (fourteen years ago) link

do you have a shower?

Suggest Bander-Meinhof Complex (sarahel), Monday, 14 September 2009 09:26 (fourteen years ago) link

No shower - water pressure in the UK isn't what it could be, considering how surrounded by water we are here.

lacoste intolerant (suzy), Monday, 14 September 2009 09:33 (fourteen years ago) link

it isn't against the law for the landlord/property manager/whoever to leave you without running water for that long?

Suggest Bander-Meinhof Complex (sarahel), Monday, 14 September 2009 09:39 (fourteen years ago) link

They will actually remove and replace the bath and toilet and sink the first day but it will be like trying to wash in a dust storm until they do the rest.

lacoste intolerant (suzy), Monday, 14 September 2009 09:55 (fourteen years ago) link

that's pretty great that they can/will do that in one day ...

Suggest Bander-Meinhof Complex (sarahel), Monday, 14 September 2009 09:57 (fourteen years ago) link

It's a public works project so they have to. If there is a problem, I will ask for some kind of vouchers to use the showers at the local pool.

lacoste intolerant (suzy), Monday, 14 September 2009 10:02 (fourteen years ago) link

I am really dreading nearly three weeks of having a refrigerator, microwave, toaster and kettle setup in the main room of my studio, where I also sleep (sunny, don't you have rooms where you can go to avoid the construction carnage?).

oh i didnt mean the construction. just the cooking appliances. in fact i dont use a toaster or kettle either and the microwave is optional.

Hillary had Everest in his veins (sunny successor), Monday, 14 September 2009 13:20 (fourteen years ago) link

The problem here is NO OVEN for three weeks, and a living room stuffed with kitchen-based appliances.

lacoste intolerant (suzy), Monday, 14 September 2009 13:35 (fourteen years ago) link

Its a good excuse to get home delivery every night! :)

Dearth Disco (Trayce), Tuesday, 15 September 2009 01:59 (fourteen years ago) link

^^ yeah I was gonna say this ... or eating out.

Suggest Bander-Meinhof Complex (sarahel), Tuesday, 15 September 2009 02:00 (fourteen years ago) link

three weeks pass...

I bought The Girl with the Silver Eyes at the library book sale this weekend. I have never read it!

tokyo rosemary, Saturday, 10 October 2009 16:48 (fourteen years ago) link

aw, that's awesome!

e\m/ily (roxymuzak), Saturday, 10 October 2009 17:12 (fourteen years ago) link

lol i saw a bunch of christopher pike books at the goodwill store - so tempted to buy them! they were the really old school covers too

DAN P3RRY MAD AT GRANDMA (just1n3), Saturday, 10 October 2009 17:48 (fourteen years ago) link

four weeks pass...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0sZxokRYp8

e\m/ily (roxymuzak), Monday, 9 November 2009 01:39 (fourteen years ago) link

I would be happy to see my man cooking something at all, let alone half nekkid :/

i obtain much semillon (Trayce), Monday, 9 November 2009 02:12 (fourteen years ago) link

two weeks pass...

This is a remove bookmark post

drinking coke in the kitchen with a kid that doesnt know his n (sunny successor), Sunday, 29 November 2009 04:15 (fourteen years ago) link

RIP

tehresa, Sunday, 29 November 2009 04:20 (fourteen years ago) link

dryer sheets and other products for the home lol

― harbl, Saturday, June 20, 2009 9:42 PM (5 months ago) Bookmark

dryer sheets and other products for the home lol

― harbl, Saturday, June 20, 2009 9:42 PM (5 months ago) Bookmark

dryer sheets and other products for the home lol

― harbl, Saturday, June 20, 2009 9:42 PM (5 months ago) Bookmark

dryer sheets and other products for the home lol

― harbl, Saturday, June 20, 2009 9:42 PM (5 months ago) Bookmark

afa the i can c (roxymuzak), Monday, 30 November 2009 00:22 (fourteen years ago) link

i don't have cramps today, but i did yesterday.

sarahel, Monday, 30 November 2009 00:25 (fourteen years ago) link

i was just telling what i think girls talk about. they talk about home products and menstruating all the time

harbl, Monday, 30 November 2009 00:29 (fourteen years ago) link

girls also talk about dumb things guys do.

sarahel, Monday, 30 November 2009 00:31 (fourteen years ago) link

also sex and hangovers, from my experience

sarahel, Monday, 30 November 2009 00:33 (fourteen years ago) link

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball is one of my favorite display names in the universe

harbl, Monday, 30 November 2009 00:34 (fourteen years ago) link

it makes me think of the phrase "dances with Neb" - and I picture him in a civil war uniform telling the native american tribe where to find the best deer to hunt and lecturing them on blended haircuts.

sarahel, Monday, 30 November 2009 00:37 (fourteen years ago) link

i love that post harbl, the one ending in lol

afa the i can c (roxymuzak), Monday, 30 November 2009 00:38 (fourteen years ago) link

xpost loool

afa the i can c (roxymuzak), Monday, 30 November 2009 00:38 (fourteen years ago) link

lol

harbl, Monday, 30 November 2009 00:38 (fourteen years ago) link

and then he hooks up with the native american girl and they "get their groove on" to Phish

sarahel, Monday, 30 November 2009 00:44 (fourteen years ago) link

and then he lectures her on how her taste in animal skins is inferior because of her class position.

sarahel, Monday, 30 November 2009 00:45 (fourteen years ago) link

loool. tbh i would watch this movie and probably laugh hysterically.

afa the i can c (roxymuzak), Monday, 30 November 2009 00:48 (fourteen years ago) link

i think i need advice on hair conditioner. i have curly hair - that is thick and dry - there are too many brands of conditioner. i have no clue what kind to get.

sarahel, Monday, 30 November 2009 00:54 (fourteen years ago) link

or maybe a more general - girl type question for everyone - how often do you wash your hair?

sarahel, Monday, 30 November 2009 00:55 (fourteen years ago) link

my sister has thick, curly hair and she uses bumble and bumble super-rich conditioner.

horseshoe, Monday, 30 November 2009 00:57 (fourteen years ago) link

where would you buy this? i haven't heard of it.

sarahel, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:00 (fourteen years ago) link

i thought of having a thread about soap because i like soap for some reason
i've been using trader joe's tea tree tingle shampoo and conditioner lately (cheap) but i don't have curly hair
was washing my hair only twice a week earlier this year but i hate how you have to train it not to get greasy and it gets untrained right away if you happen to wash your hair too much so now i do it every day

harbl, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:00 (fourteen years ago) link

sarahel, you can get it at most salons and sometimes at drugstores/target/etc. it is pricey, though.

horseshoe, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:00 (fourteen years ago) link

i almost never wash my hair anymore tbh. like once-twice a week.

horseshoe, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:01 (fourteen years ago) link

i'm addicted to it :(

harbl, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:01 (fourteen years ago) link

i mean, i'm a little gross these days, so

horseshoe, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:02 (fourteen years ago) link

Every day. It looks like crap if I don't.

bear say hi to me (ENBB), Monday, 30 November 2009 01:02 (fourteen years ago) link

i wash my hair every day or i feel gross.

tehresa, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:02 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah twice a week for me. it's kinda fun actually - because it's only curly the first day, and then after two or three days, i have more or less straight hair.

sarahel, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:02 (fourteen years ago) link

See my hair is pin straight and just starts to look weird and flat if I don't wash it. Also, what Tza said about feeling gross.

bear say hi to me (ENBB), Monday, 30 November 2009 01:03 (fourteen years ago) link

my hair was always like that until i cut it all off; now it looks better when it's dirty? so weird

horseshoe, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:04 (fourteen years ago) link

also sometimes twice bc like if i get up and shower go do stuff and then go to the gym later i will take another shower and wash again usually.

tehresa, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:05 (fourteen years ago) link

well i got it so it wasn't getting greasy or flat for a few days. it did look better dirty, not staticky or too straight.

harbl, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:05 (fourteen years ago) link

Yeah Horseshoe when mine was really short I think it might have too. I'm growing it again though so skipping a wash not an option.

bear say hi to me (ENBB), Monday, 30 November 2009 01:06 (fourteen years ago) link

i think my hair does better dirty when it is longer, but i have bangs and i always have to rewash them even if i don't do the whole head.

tehresa, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:06 (fourteen years ago) link

i make my hair straight most of the time, so i wash it every day to do that (blowdry + flat iron, typically).

i was just gonna say bumble and bumble super rich or coco!! i use it. my hair is v curly and dry also, though not that thick (essentially bald)

afa the i can c (roxymuzak), Monday, 30 November 2009 01:06 (fourteen years ago) link

i've gone a week without washing my hair when I've been really busy - and have had people tell me like on day 6 of not washing it that it looks great. I'm not saying that it does. Hmm, maybe it has to do with it being thick? I don't know.

sarahel, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:07 (fourteen years ago) link

Bumble and Bumble is good but it's SO expensive. :-(

bear say hi to me (ENBB), Monday, 30 November 2009 01:07 (fourteen years ago) link

if you dont wash your hair often it stops getting greasy as fast

this is a fact

xpost luckily, it is a tinny bottle that is easy to shoplift

afa the i can c (roxymuzak), Monday, 30 November 2009 01:08 (fourteen years ago) link

my curly-haired sister is fascist about care for curly hair and she would tell you that you have to wash your hair sparingly and condition it lavishly, sarahel

horseshoe, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:08 (fourteen years ago) link

horseshoe: that is the advice that i've heard and try to follow.

sarahel, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:09 (fourteen years ago) link

Have you guys tried the whole Deva low/no poo thing? I wasn't impressed but it's supposed to be good for curly hair.

bear say hi to me (ENBB), Monday, 30 November 2009 01:10 (fourteen years ago) link

my fascist curly-haired sister (mfchs) has tried deva no-poo and pooh-poohs it

horseshoe, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:10 (fourteen years ago) link

Interesting!!

btw did you see revived Ed Burns thread? Left msg for you. ;)

bear say hi to me (ENBB), Monday, 30 November 2009 01:11 (fourteen years ago) link

wtf is no poo?

harbl, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:11 (fourteen years ago) link

i have no clue about any of this shit tbh :/

harbl, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:12 (fourteen years ago) link

!! Erica i hadn't seen it <3 <3 <3

horseshoe, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:12 (fourteen years ago) link

i liked to use the deva no-poo as a conditioner - not too heavy. but they discontinued the brown one i think :(

tehresa, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:13 (fourteen years ago) link

x-post hee hee

bear say hi to me (ENBB), Monday, 30 November 2009 01:13 (fourteen years ago) link

a brown conditioner called no poo? this is too much

harbl, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:13 (fourteen years ago) link

lolll

tehresa, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:13 (fourteen years ago) link

anyway i also really liked the low-poo

tehresa, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:14 (fourteen years ago) link

but for some reason i didn't like the regular low-poo, only the brown one?

tehresa, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:14 (fourteen years ago) link

lol harbl i guess it's called that because it doesn't lather?

horseshoe, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:14 (fourteen years ago) link

ohhhh haha

harbl, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:14 (fourteen years ago) link

I'm confused too now, is it no-soap shampoo or something?

hulk would smash (Trayce), Monday, 30 November 2009 01:15 (fourteen years ago) link

is there some kind of shampoo that's like a bar? someone mentioned it once and i'm not sure it exists. i'm interested in shampoos that are like the simplest, boringest thing possible

harbl, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:16 (fourteen years ago) link

it's sulfate free and low-foaming, v v v gentle on the hair. it made my hair super silky.

tehresa, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:17 (fourteen years ago) link

Harbl - Lush makes a solid shampoo. Will get you link. Hang on . . .

bear say hi to me (ENBB), Monday, 30 November 2009 01:17 (fourteen years ago) link

btw do not use dr. bronner's on your hair it will turn it to straw no joke

tehresa, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:17 (fourteen years ago) link

lush stuff smells

tehresa, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:17 (fourteen years ago) link

oh there's a burt's bees one and j.r. liggett's something something

harbl, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:17 (fourteen years ago) link

i use bronner's sometimes! after i get back from hairdresser mostly. it's not so bad, for me

harbl, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:18 (fourteen years ago) link

i had an ex that used dr bronner's on his hair, but i think his hair was naturally really greasy, so it ended up looking okay.

sarahel, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:18 (fourteen years ago) link

http://www.lushusa.com/shop/products/haircare/solid-shampoos/

Lush stores are overpoweringly smelly but I do like some of their stuff.

bear say hi to me (ENBB), Monday, 30 November 2009 01:19 (fourteen years ago) link

this has fresh pure new hampshire springwater in it :p http://www.vitacost.com/J-R-Liggetts-Old-Fashioned-Bar-Shampoo-The-Original-Formula

harbl, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:19 (fourteen years ago) link

I never use supermarket shampoos, only low-soap salon ones. Shit like Pantene strips the shit out of my hair. And when you have grey hair like I do (lol old) then you gotta treat it like delicate silk.

hulk would smash (Trayce), Monday, 30 November 2009 01:22 (fourteen years ago) link

oh yeah i never noticed how bad pantene was until i used it when i ran out of bulk co-op shampoo last time and it was so so dry and staticky and straight. awful. i used to only use that! i like the smell of it

harbl, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:23 (fourteen years ago) link

The shampoo I'm using right now is Tigi Catwalk Oatmeal and Honey shampoo. It smells like cookies. Every morning I have to remind myself that it's not to be eaten.

bear say hi to me (ENBB), Monday, 30 November 2009 01:24 (fourteen years ago) link

I don't use Pantene shampoo - only the conditioner.

I used to use Clairol Herbal Essences, but then they changed the design of their conditioner bottle so that I had trouble opening it, and I started trying different conditioners. I'm kind of self-conscious about the Clairol Herbal Essences shampoo (it does smell nice) - because 12 years ago when I worked in radio, I had to edit the commercials into a nine hour radio special commemorating the 30th anniversary of the summer of love. Each spot break there was an ad for Clairol Herbal Essences shampoo. So I was inundated with commercials for this product. And now I use this product. I feel like the ads worked, even though I hated them at the time, and it was the shampoo at Walgreen's that smelled the best and wasn't super expensive.

sarahel, Monday, 30 November 2009 01:59 (fourteen years ago) link

i too worked in radio and i too used to use clairol herbal essences conditioner and i too had trouble opening a new bottle

afa the i can c (roxymuzak), Monday, 30 November 2009 02:56 (fourteen years ago) link

why did they change them? i can still find the shampoo in the old bottle design.

sarahel, Monday, 30 November 2009 02:59 (fourteen years ago) link

that stuff smells too strong for me. but i have kind of a thing about smelling like things i dunno

harbl, Monday, 30 November 2009 02:59 (fourteen years ago) link

you are as pure as the driven snow

afa the i can c (roxymuzak), Monday, 30 November 2009 03:00 (fourteen years ago) link

u could say that

harbl, Monday, 30 November 2009 03:00 (fourteen years ago) link

driven snow smells though.

sarahel, Monday, 30 November 2009 03:03 (fourteen years ago) link

two weeks pass...

he is killing me

(♥_♥) (roxymuzak), Monday, 14 December 2009 07:21 (fourteen years ago) link

Had no idea what this was but was pretty sure who "he" had to mean before I even clicked the link.

★彡☆ ★彡 (ENBB), Monday, 14 December 2009 07:23 (fourteen years ago) link

have not clicked but i feel like i know.

tehresa, Monday, 14 December 2009 07:24 (fourteen years ago) link

haha its pretty much my go-to james franco thread

(♥_♥) (roxymuzak), Monday, 14 December 2009 07:24 (fourteen years ago) link

kinda feel like we should have a thread or at least include in this thread pictures of hot/cute guys with cute animals, a la Varg w/cat.

sarahel, Monday, 14 December 2009 07:25 (fourteen years ago) link

pleeeeeease do

(♥_♥) (roxymuzak), Monday, 14 December 2009 07:25 (fourteen years ago) link

and ty for the choice of example!

(♥_♥) (roxymuzak), Monday, 14 December 2009 07:25 (fourteen years ago) link

I have special love for Alain Delon - when he was younger - and there's one movie where he has this persian cat and also a kitten, and GIS does not provide me visual gratification of this.

sarahel, Monday, 14 December 2009 07:28 (fourteen years ago) link

<3
xpost

tehresa, Monday, 14 December 2009 07:30 (fourteen years ago) link

aaaahhh i love him too!!! xpost

(♥_♥) (roxymuzak), Monday, 14 December 2009 07:30 (fourteen years ago) link

http://19.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ksq6ivfMn01qzdhlco1_400.jpg

sarahel, Monday, 14 December 2009 07:31 (fourteen years ago) link

will have to do in place of cats

http://www.cinecultist.com/archives/alain.jpg

(♥_♥) (roxymuzak), Monday, 14 December 2009 07:31 (fourteen years ago) link

xp - am I going to have to re-rent that movie and do a screen capture in order to satisfy this need?

sarahel, Monday, 14 December 2009 07:31 (fourteen years ago) link

in a word: yes

(♥_♥) (roxymuzak), Monday, 14 December 2009 07:34 (fourteen years ago) link

otm

sarahel, Monday, 14 December 2009 07:36 (fourteen years ago) link

http://www.hulu.com/watch/116582/saturday-night-live-james-franco

tehresa, Monday, 21 December 2009 04:26 (fourteen years ago) link

lord help!

also: http://www.newsmeat.com/fec/bystate_detail.php?st=CA&last=franco&first=james

fyi

(♥_♥) (roxymuzak), Monday, 21 December 2009 07:57 (fourteen years ago) link

Whose DOG RU Prods.,/Actor

tehresa, Monday, 21 December 2009 08:03 (fourteen years ago) link

hahaha <3

(♥_♥) (roxymuzak), Monday, 21 December 2009 08:58 (fourteen years ago) link

~swoons~

★彡☆ ★彡 (ENBB), Monday, 21 December 2009 13:51 (fourteen years ago) link

hey girls I am meh on Franco but I am really really into hair stuff these days so like for real ask me anything about lo-poo, no-poo, co-washing, CG, modified CG, sulfates, 'cones, plopping, etc. etc. I can answer all your pressing hair questions!

quincie, Monday, 21 December 2009 16:16 (fourteen years ago) link

I can't find deva brown anymore! have you seen it?

tehresa, Monday, 21 December 2009 16:20 (fourteen years ago) link

I think the word on naturallycurly.com (DANGER: time-sucking and OCD-ifying) is that it has been discontinued???

quincie, Monday, 21 December 2009 16:22 (fourteen years ago) link

:(

tehresa, Monday, 21 December 2009 16:22 (fourteen years ago) link

what a disaster for brunettes

tehresa, Monday, 21 December 2009 16:24 (fourteen years ago) link

I never used it but lately my disaster for brunettes thing is dry shampoo :(

quincie, Monday, 21 December 2009 16:27 (fourteen years ago) link

Actually I think I am gonna order some of this:

http://www.theall-nighter.com/index.html

quincie, Monday, 21 December 2009 16:30 (fourteen years ago) link

my old hairdresser kept trying to convince me to man-up and stop washing my hair every day and used the old 'it'll stop being greasy once you get used to it' but i just couldn't. i hate hate hate greasy hair.

DAN P3RRY MAD AT GRANDMA (just1n3), Tuesday, 22 December 2009 02:41 (fourteen years ago) link

haha. i can not-wash my hair now bc it's short again but i'm addicted to it. it really does stop getting greasy but i think it's more efficient to go a long stretch, like a week or more, w/o washing rather than gradually increasing so you only have to go through one period of greasiness. but i don't have the discipline.

welcome to gudbergur (harbl), Tuesday, 22 December 2009 03:23 (fourteen years ago) link

i hate my hair you guys. think i'm going to cave and grow it out. i hope it doesn't take years.

horseshoe, Tuesday, 22 December 2009 16:32 (fourteen years ago) link

horseshoe - I'm growing mine out too. Just got it trimmed and cleaned up this morning in anticpation of this awful growing out shit. NOw that I've done that I sort of love it. Gah. Never going that short ever again or at least until I get bored and impulsively chop it all off.

★彡☆ ★彡 (ENBB), Tuesday, 22 December 2009 16:35 (fourteen years ago) link

I found my first gray hair.

sarahel, Tuesday, 22 December 2009 16:35 (fourteen years ago) link

guys my bangs are hitting my LIPS and it is driving me insane but I am going to grow them out or shave my damn head. Growing is winning, so far! phew. I tricked my hair by cutting it on an angle so that the side that usually grows out poofy & looks like crap is shorter and balanced by my scraggly longer hair on the other side? I think it's working.

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Tuesday, 22 December 2009 16:39 (fourteen years ago) link

cutting your hair short is a trap because you become addicted to novelty and pretty soon no haircut is good enough and you have to keep cutting it until you have no hair left and then the only "novel" option is longer hair and then the wait is excruciating.

horseshoe, Tuesday, 22 December 2009 17:15 (fourteen years ago) link

i never used to be this neurotic about my dam hair...grown so vain!

horseshoe, Tuesday, 22 December 2009 17:16 (fourteen years ago) link

I never want to cut my hair again! I can go two days w/o washing but after that the bangs get kind gross. Though sometimes I'll just put powder in it to cut the grease as a temporary fix when I am feeling too lazy.

When I got my layers in my hair last summer, I noticed a lot more white hairs. (Ok, 10 total?) The other month I found one half brown, half white. I pluck them out, fuck an old wives' tale.

tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, 23 December 2009 03:19 (fourteen years ago) link

what's the old wives' tale?

sarahel, Wednesday, 23 December 2009 03:51 (fourteen years ago) link

i am thinking about cutting myself some REAL bangs (like tza has, for example, instead of the wispy layers thing i've usually maintained). but i'm pretty scared about it, so i'm currently some weird inbetween thing which works some days and not so much others. probably not helped by the fact that i've been trimming them myself with blunt scissors (fyi if i decide to get real bangs i will go to a certified hair cutting practitioner).

DAN P3RRY MAD AT GRANDMA (just1n3), Wednesday, 23 December 2009 03:54 (fourteen years ago) link

If you pluck one white hair, ten more will pop up!

tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, 23 December 2009 04:01 (fourteen years ago) link

My hair is FINALLY long enough to put back in a wee pigtail (too small to be called ponytail) after, I dunno, 2 yrs of short hair in various stages of growing out from a major pixie. Feeling your pain, but there is an end to the waiting. I have a couple of more gray hairs tho :-/

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Wednesday, 23 December 2009 04:06 (fourteen years ago) link

i am excited about gray hair

welcome to gudbergur (harbl), Wednesday, 23 December 2009 04:08 (fourteen years ago) link

not excited but more like, i think it would be fun

welcome to gudbergur (harbl), Wednesday, 23 December 2009 04:08 (fourteen years ago) link

Do you have really thick hair? Grey looks cool on ppl w/ super thick hair. Mine is stringy.

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Wednesday, 23 December 2009 04:10 (fourteen years ago) link

trying to decide which took longer - growing out the unfortunately layered "mullet" I got in junior high or growing out the last dye job, after I'd decided to let my hair be its natural color after almost 20 years of dying it.

sarahel, Wednesday, 23 December 2009 04:11 (fourteen years ago) link

xp - my hair is super thick.

sarahel, Wednesday, 23 December 2009 04:11 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah i have thick hair

welcome to gudbergur (harbl), Wednesday, 23 December 2009 04:11 (fourteen years ago) link

i've found like 2 gray hairs.. not excited about it! my hair is pretty thick, don't know if it'll look cool, it's more like ohno, getting old ;_;

kicker conspiracy (s. suisham ha ha) (daria-g), Wednesday, 23 December 2009 04:15 (fourteen years ago) link

being young is hard

welcome to gudbergur (harbl), Wednesday, 23 December 2009 04:18 (fourteen years ago) link

25 was a good year.

sarahel, Wednesday, 23 December 2009 04:22 (fourteen years ago) link

If my hair goes white, I'm gonna go blonde.

tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, 23 December 2009 04:27 (fourteen years ago) link

i'm gonna look like terry gross when i get old because i don't have much of a choice. it's either tg or wigs.

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Wednesday, 23 December 2009 17:55 (fourteen years ago) link

wigs can be awesome though.

sarahel, Wednesday, 23 December 2009 17:57 (fourteen years ago) link

cutting your hair short is a trap because you become addicted to novelty and pretty soon no haircut is good enough and you have to keep cutting it until you have no hair left and then the only "novel" option is longer hair and then the wait is excruciating.

― horseshoe, Tuesday, December 22, 2009 5:15 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

^^^^NBAITR truth bomb

quincie, Wednesday, 23 December 2009 18:00 (fourteen years ago) link

RE: washing, not washing

I define washing as shampooing, particularly with a sulfate shampoo. I have been using a lo-poo (no sulfates) around twice a week, conditioner washing (<<<<<<<<<---- key concept) about twice a week, rinsing with just water about once a week and not wetting at all once a week. I am also doing the growing-out thing and want the ancient hairs (once past shoulder length) to be healthy.

I had three gray hairs, pulled two out and left one in.

quincie, Wednesday, 23 December 2009 18:03 (fourteen years ago) link

xp - LoL at "truth bomb" - I've reconciled myself to the fact that if my hair is shorter than chin-length it makes my face look too long, and if it's significantly longer than chin-length I look like a female member of the Ramones.

sarahel, Wednesday, 23 December 2009 18:06 (fourteen years ago) link

i didn't wash my hair yesterday but i did today. i switched to whole foods brand shampoo fyi

welcome to gudbergur (harbl), Thursday, 24 December 2009 01:48 (fourteen years ago) link

i think tea tree tingle was giving me dandruff, which seems backwards

welcome to gudbergur (harbl), Thursday, 24 December 2009 01:49 (fourteen years ago) link

y'all i have had like a million gray hairs so i really would not worry if i were you.
i like to wash my hair every day tbh. i can not do that, but i still need to wet/wash the bangs otherwise they look like a greasy stringy mess which is totally nagl w/ this weird tina fey bang cut shit. i am pretty into having long hair, though! after many moons of having a chin length angled bob!

yo gabba gabbneb (tehresa), Sunday, 27 December 2009 22:29 (fourteen years ago) link

http://www.chagrinvalleysoapandcraft.com/shambar.htm

This here ^^^ is some good shit, shampoo wise.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Sunday, 27 December 2009 22:41 (fourteen years ago) link

i went no-poo for a year and a half (baking soda/water, twice a week, instead) but stopped out of a combination of laziness and the fear that it was making my hair go grey quicker. I don't know if it was a stressful life or I was just paying more attention but I kept finding whitehairs, started remembering that my grandmother's hair had gone white in her thirties, got a bit worried.

lords of hyrule (c sharp major), Monday, 28 December 2009 11:36 (fourteen years ago) link

that can't happen though!

welcome to gudbergur (harbl), Monday, 28 December 2009 16:03 (fourteen years ago) link

that no-poo sends you grey? it seemed unlikely, but i thought if I was getting all frettish about it I might as well stop.

lords of hyrule (c sharp major), Monday, 28 December 2009 17:58 (fourteen years ago) link

fair enough

welcome to gudbergur (harbl), Monday, 28 December 2009 18:01 (fourteen years ago) link

also, laziness. and getting fed up w/ suspicion that I smelt of vinegar but couldn't tell any more.

lords of hyrule (c sharp major), Monday, 28 December 2009 18:05 (fourteen years ago) link

HEY!

welcome to gudbergur (harbl), Monday, 28 December 2009 22:17 (fourteen years ago) link

disgraceful.

awomOn (estela), Monday, 28 December 2009 23:48 (fourteen years ago) link

no farting!

welcome to gudbergur (harbl), Tuesday, 29 December 2009 00:14 (fourteen years ago) link

lol @ chuckie and jaws squabbling before the last break

http://i46.tinypic.com/k1em8.jpg

kicker conspiracy (s. suisham ha ha) (daria-g), Tuesday, 29 December 2009 01:40 (fourteen years ago) link

oh no! wrong thread! i'm still allowed in this room, but i'm sorry!

kicker conspiracy (s. suisham ha ha) (daria-g), Tuesday, 29 December 2009 01:41 (fourteen years ago) link

i mean, you can kick me out now, if you want

kicker conspiracy (s. suisham ha ha) (daria-g), Tuesday, 29 December 2009 01:41 (fourteen years ago) link

no i think it works in this thread

horseshoe, Tuesday, 29 December 2009 01:44 (fourteen years ago) link

the good thing about girls is they don't talk about football all the time

welcome to gudbergur (harbl), Tuesday, 29 December 2009 02:13 (fourteen years ago) link

lol sorry!

horseshoe, Tuesday, 29 December 2009 02:19 (fourteen years ago) link

:)

welcome to gudbergur (harbl), Tuesday, 29 December 2009 02:19 (fourteen years ago) link

my mom still has fond memories of when Jim Palmer used to do tv ads for men's underwear.

sarahel, Tuesday, 29 December 2009 02:43 (fourteen years ago) link

http://i50.tinypic.com/2e56ywh.jpg

I don't think I've seen that Exclamation stuff since the early 90s - is it back? Has it consistently been around and I just haven't noticed it until now?

sarahel, Tuesday, 29 December 2009 07:20 (fourteen years ago) link

Are those various permutations of Love's Baby Soft on the left of the (!) stuff?

One time in junior high when we were on the band bus to a holiday parade in a neighboring town, one of the majorettes, a perky little popular gal, told me that she kept the rubber ends of her baton from smelling funny by soaking them in Love's Baby Soft. I remember being impressed by her ingenuity, her femininity, and her access to enough Love's Baby Soft to soak something in it.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 29 December 2009 13:56 (fourteen years ago) link

I bought mom Exclamation gor Christmas-she lives the stuff! I think it's been kicking around all these years..

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Tuesday, 29 December 2009 16:44 (fourteen years ago) link

xp Jenny - yeah - Love's Baby Soft variants.

What did they smell like normally?

sarahel, Tuesday, 29 December 2009 17:11 (fourteen years ago) link

Love's Baby Soft? Or baton ends? Or Finefinemusic's mom?

she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 29 December 2009 17:21 (fourteen years ago) link

lol - the baton ends.

sarahel, Tuesday, 29 December 2009 17:27 (fourteen years ago) link

Oh. Many drug-addled years have past since my junior high band days so my memory is hazy, but I think they smelled like some kind of industrial, rubbery, chemical somethingorther of the sort that probably resulted in a high percentage of former majorettes developing various cancers later in life.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 29 December 2009 17:36 (fourteen years ago) link

kinda like those black welcome mats?

sarahel, Tuesday, 29 December 2009 17:37 (fourteen years ago) link

I don't know what those smell like, but that seems like it would be an apt comparison.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 29 December 2009 17:39 (fourteen years ago) link

they have a weird faux-rubber kinda chemical smell that smells a bit like some highly-artificial snack food that I can't identify because it's the kind of thing I'd see in the stores and think it looks really gross.

sarahel, Tuesday, 29 December 2009 17:42 (fourteen years ago) link

oh geez http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/31/books/31babysitters.html

welcome to gudbergur (harbl), Thursday, 31 December 2009 03:44 (fourteen years ago) link

Editors at Scholastic updated some of the references to technology and outdated fashions in the reissued books. So a “cassette player” has become “headphones” and a “perm” has become “an expensive hairstyle.”

I hate when they do this. ( Are You There God, It's Me, Margaret, I am looking at you.)

tokyo rosemary, Thursday, 31 December 2009 14:40 (fourteen years ago) link

where my ipod at
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3148/2565176504_7543c45dee_m.jpg

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Thursday, 31 December 2009 15:56 (fourteen years ago) link

you pieces of shit iirc

S.E., we runnin' this FAP shit (roxymuzak), Saturday, 2 January 2010 22:17 (fourteen years ago) link

nowadays if i see anything to do with james franco this thread springs to mind and i say to myself fondly, those blimmin girls.

estela, Saturday, 2 January 2010 22:28 (fourteen years ago) link

James Franco has still not accepted my friend request on facebook. Mad at him now.

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Saturday, 2 January 2010 22:37 (fourteen years ago) link

that's terrible, he accepted mine with alacrity.

estela, Saturday, 2 January 2010 22:48 (fourteen years ago) link

Hmpf.

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Saturday, 2 January 2010 22:50 (fourteen years ago) link

that was my first lie for 2010, i'm not even on facebook.

estela, Saturday, 2 January 2010 22:50 (fourteen years ago) link

Yeah for some reason I didn't think you were.

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Saturday, 2 January 2010 22:58 (fourteen years ago) link

uh, leave him alone imo

S.E., we runnin' this FAP shit (roxymuzak), Saturday, 2 January 2010 23:05 (fourteen years ago) link

haw :D

S.E., we runnin' this FAP shit (roxymuzak), Saturday, 2 January 2010 23:05 (fourteen years ago) link

Yes, I notice that you two are facebook engaged. Is he aware of this fact? Hmmm?

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Saturday, 2 January 2010 23:06 (fourteen years ago) link

enbb, if you knew i wasn't on facebook that means you falsely hmpfed me.

estela, Saturday, 2 January 2010 23:08 (fourteen years ago) link

The hmpf was not intended to be taken seriously. However if I thought that you were on FB and had not friended me then you some serious hmpfing might be directed your way.

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Saturday, 2 January 2010 23:11 (fourteen years ago) link

i would friend you, and all the other rotten francophiles.

estela, Saturday, 2 January 2010 23:16 (fourteen years ago) link

:D

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Saturday, 2 January 2010 23:17 (fourteen years ago) link

he had to approve it iirc

S.E., we runnin' this FAP shit (roxymuzak), Saturday, 2 January 2010 23:18 (fourteen years ago) link

simmer down, ladies!

tehresa, Sunday, 3 January 2010 02:30 (fourteen years ago) link

I for one am now completely confused.

millivanillimillenary (Trayce), Sunday, 3 January 2010 03:12 (fourteen years ago) link

lol

S.E., we runnin' this FAP shit (roxymuzak), Sunday, 3 January 2010 19:55 (fourteen years ago) link

being confused can be fun!

sarahel, Sunday, 3 January 2010 19:57 (fourteen years ago) link

i found my old muppet movie lunchbox while cleaning the kitchen today. Did anyone else have lunchboxes as kids, what kind of lunchboxes. I think I had a Lassie one, and also a Pigs in Space one.

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 07:35 (fourteen years ago) link

i had one, that i still have, that was a legend of zelda/super mario bros. hybrid, with slightly more zleda/link motifs than mario ones. it was royal blue: my favorite color then and now.

i also had a neon orange nkotb one

S.E., we runnin' this FAP shit (roxymuzak), Monday, 4 January 2010 07:47 (fourteen years ago) link

i never used the thermoses on any of them.

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 07:55 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah i always maintained an attitude of "fuq 1 thermos", until my "drinking years*", this was unrelated to luncheoning

*1997-present

S.E., we runnin' this FAP shit (roxymuzak), Monday, 4 January 2010 07:58 (fourteen years ago) link

when i was in second grade, my friends were "bad girls" and they'd steal lunchboxes during lunch time, but they didn't really steal them, they just hid them in the bushes around the corner, and they tried to get me to steal someone's lunchbox, but i ended up just taking the crayons from the boy I had a crush on who sat in front of me, thinking that would mean he'd have to borrow my crayons.

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 07:59 (fourteen years ago) link

cute tbh

S.E., we runnin' this FAP shit (roxymuzak), Monday, 4 January 2010 08:02 (fourteen years ago) link

i don't think he did end up borrowing my crayons though. he was quiet and shy. i gave up on having crushes on quiet, shy boys after him.

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 08:03 (fourteen years ago) link

the next boy i had a crush on was ryan - and he wasn't quiet and shy, this was 4th grade - but he flirted with everyone, so i was kinda mean to him, and then he started dating my bf sabr1na, and i followed them around and took notes like in Harriet the Spy. Okay, I'm drunmk and gonna go to sleep.

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 08:09 (fourteen years ago) link

my favourite boy when i was eight wasn't shy but he was eccentric, at the end of the year we were supposed to take all our artwork home and he couldn't fit the last couple of his paintings in his bag so he ate them while i cried my eyes out with laughter.

estela, Monday, 4 January 2010 08:10 (fourteen years ago) link

omg that's adorable!

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 08:11 (fourteen years ago) link

isn't it<3

estela, Monday, 4 January 2010 08:13 (fourteen years ago) link

oh my gosh

S.E., we runnin' this FAP shit (roxymuzak), Monday, 4 January 2010 08:16 (fourteen years ago) link

crying my eyes out with laughter and <3 aT!m

S.E., we runnin' this FAP shit (roxymuzak), Monday, 4 January 2010 08:16 (fourteen years ago) link

whatever happened to him? jason - the 2nd grade crush - ended up moving away in high school, though we were in the same gifted classes for years, he had really good taste in music, but i think that was because he had a cool older sister.

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 08:17 (fourteen years ago) link

we both liked adam & the ants in 2nd grade - that goody two shoes song they played on the radio

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 08:18 (fourteen years ago) link

we moved up north not long after that so i never saw him again.

estela, Monday, 4 January 2010 08:24 (fourteen years ago) link

what ashame

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 08:26 (fourteen years ago) link

this thread needs lxy, she always has darling stories along these lines.

estela, Monday, 4 January 2010 08:27 (fourteen years ago) link

it would be good if you still had your ryan and sabr1na notes.

estela, Monday, 4 January 2010 08:39 (fourteen years ago) link

i don't even remember what those notes consisted of!

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 08:41 (fourteen years ago) link

bitter musings and sardonic observations.

estela, Monday, 4 January 2010 08:48 (fourteen years ago) link

cuties, all

S.E., we runnin' this FAP shit (roxymuzak), Monday, 4 January 2010 08:50 (fourteen years ago) link

xp - i think it was just observations on behavior - i was really into spy type stuff at that age.

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 08:50 (fourteen years ago) link

im SURE you and bryce have discussed this???

S.E., we runnin' this FAP shit (roxymuzak), Monday, 4 January 2010 08:51 (fourteen years ago) link

no!

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 08:52 (fourteen years ago) link

why?

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 08:52 (fourteen years ago) link

we discussed whether best beloved tuppence was kitch or bathetic for about an hour tho

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 08:53 (fourteen years ago) link

kitsch - i need to sleep

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 08:54 (fourteen years ago) link

sounds fun

S.E., we runnin' this FAP shit (roxymuzak), Monday, 4 January 2010 08:55 (fourteen years ago) link

huh?

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 08:56 (fourteen years ago) link

he said something about liking that book in passing once - or maybe on a thread here, i don't remember.

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 09:01 (fourteen years ago) link

I had a Kiss lunchbox and a crush on the smartest boy in my class from fourth grade until we graduated high school. Now he's a professor of some esoteric, weather-related science discipline and I'm married to the smartest boy in a different class, so everything worked out in the end.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Monday, 4 January 2010 14:08 (fourteen years ago) link

I do not recall lunchbox themes but I do recall my Trapper Keeper with the horse on it. I recall it in great detail, actually!

quincie, Monday, 4 January 2010 15:20 (fourteen years ago) link

I was always drawing horses heads on my papers at skool. Girls and horses, horses and girls.

quincie, Monday, 4 January 2010 15:21 (fourteen years ago) link

You were a horse girl! I was talking to a coworker about horse girls, but she grew up on the mean streets of Chicago and said there weren't any many horse girls in her school. I grew up in rural Delaware so I was friends with tons of horse girls, many of whom had their own actual horses.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Monday, 4 January 2010 15:34 (fourteen years ago) link

i did horses, was in a pretty rural area too. i dunno why girls like horses so much. i still like farm animals in general but i don't think i can ever get any, i don't like non-cities anymore.

welcome to gudbergur (harbl), Monday, 4 January 2010 15:38 (fourteen years ago) link

hello! stuff happening here!

I was forbidden to ride because of surgery on kidneys, so I overcompensated with 30 Breyer models. Was also part of a clique of grade school horse girls: others had more Breyers than I did, we played Little House/'pioneers' in the woodsy bit of the school grounds, developed an elaborate trading system for virtual horses, and got told off for horse drawing contests (we settled it once and for all by sending our horses to some statewide grade school drawing contest and mine placed highest).

sacher torte reform (suzy), Monday, 4 January 2010 15:54 (fourteen years ago) link

we didn't have any horse girls in my school in NE OH. gymnastics and being in the talent show was cool, taking off your underpants and hanging them on the tetherball hook was cooler. (only happened a couple of times, but once it was accompanied by a tandem pee under a bush. not me, the cool girls)

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Monday, 4 January 2010 16:12 (fourteen years ago) link

*note this was an all girls catholic school fwiw. there were literally no boys in sight for miles. (i went there from K-7th gr)

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Monday, 4 January 2010 16:13 (fourteen years ago) link

well i had a crush on the only american boy in my school when i was about 6-8, i still remember his name: shane c0chrane. he was the cutest boy in school but also the most popular. he moved away, but i ended up marrying the cutest american boy ever, so everything worked out in the end ;) <3

i never had a cool lunch box. my mum made me use ugly boring old tupperware containers.

DAN P3RRY MAD AT GRANDMA (just1n3), Monday, 4 January 2010 16:23 (fourteen years ago) link

my little sister was a horse girl and my parents half-leased a horse for her, whatever that means. no one ever half-leased me a horse!

horseshoe, Monday, 4 January 2010 16:25 (fourteen years ago) link

Zoning laws forbade stabling horses in our town, but one of the horse girls is a grown-up horsewoman living in Austin TX (we friended each other on FB and I wrote 'HA! Traded 100 Breyers for 4 actual steeds, yes?). Most of the horse girls in my school (including her) could manage the horse thing *and* the Nadia Comaneci obsession *and* the Dorothy Hamill obsession. We also made wrist bracelets out of Dixie cups and played 'Wonder Woman' in them.

sacher torte reform (suzy), Monday, 4 January 2010 16:41 (fourteen years ago) link

I lived in the 'burbs and had no horse of my own (over which I cried myself to sleep on many occasion) but I did take lessons. Also: cut out horses from magazines, backed them with card stock, made bridles out of yarn and little saddles of felt, and galloped around the neighborhood carrying them a la the chick in National Velvet. When done galloping came back in and rubbed paper horse down with bit of felt.

So much more I could say about being a horse girl, but it is rather embarassing :(

quincie, Monday, 4 January 2010 18:24 (fourteen years ago) link

my mom had 5 horses over her childhood, including 1 foal she raised. her first major in college was horse husbandry but then she abandoned that dream and in our house, we were not allowed any pets, so i drew lots of pictures of horses and did science projects on horse anatomy and would go crazy over all the horses at summer camp and stuff. i still get excited if we go on a trip somewhere and i can do a trail ride.

tehresa, Monday, 4 January 2010 18:26 (fourteen years ago) link

i did know a girl though, who was kind of nuts, and would run around her house like a horse -- galloping and whinnying and it was a little creepy even to me.

tehresa, Monday, 4 January 2010 18:27 (fourteen years ago) link

one of my bffs now - was a horse girl - I think she lived on a ranch, so she actually had horses - and she said that having to clean the genital area of male horses is a sure cure for any sexual fantasies involving horses.

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 18:28 (fourteen years ago) link

ew

tehresa, Monday, 4 January 2010 18:29 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah - that's how she described it - but if you don't clean it, they could get nasty infections which would require expensive vet care.

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 18:30 (fourteen years ago) link

no i understand cleaning but i was kind of O_O at horse sexual fantasies!

tehresa, Monday, 4 January 2010 18:31 (fourteen years ago) link

apparently they're quite common! GIS pony play.

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 18:32 (fourteen years ago) link

OK for the record I never had horse sexual fantasies! Although I did do the creepy galloping and whinnying :(

quincie, Monday, 4 January 2010 18:33 (fourteen years ago) link

i used to wear t-shirts w/ horses on them, too!

tehresa, Monday, 4 January 2010 18:41 (fourteen years ago) link

i think horses are the new wolf in terms of "hipster fashion" - also unicorns

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 18:42 (fourteen years ago) link

I wasn't a horse girl, I never really grokked that stuff. I was a bike girl, and a sci-fi girl, and a marching band girl, and a whatever-my-dad's-doing-in-the-garage girl.

So basically I was kind of a boy.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Monday, 4 January 2010 19:26 (fourteen years ago) link

gtfo

tehresa, Monday, 4 January 2010 19:28 (fourteen years ago) link

the same bff sabrina (the one who dated ryan) and i had our best friend break up over different sci-fi tastes - she liked Anne McCaffrey novels, which just seemed to me like girl/horse stories, except the horses were dragons, and i wasn't really into that. I think I liked more dystopian stuff that was more "serious."

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 19:29 (fourteen years ago) link

xp to tza Yeah, I have found most of this thread incomprehensible even tho you of all people know I am a giant hair-curling gurl in adulthood. I don't post here much; just checking in today, I guess!

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Monday, 4 January 2010 19:30 (fourteen years ago) link

Laurel, please post here more! I don't want to be the only non-horse girl.

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 19:31 (fourteen years ago) link

horses aren't really a girly thing tbh

jortin shartgent (harbl), Monday, 4 January 2010 19:31 (fourteen years ago) link

i mean irl horses, pictures/models of horses maybe

jortin shartgent (harbl), Monday, 4 January 2010 19:32 (fourteen years ago) link

not exclusively, but ...

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 19:33 (fourteen years ago) link

I wasn't a horse girl, either. There's a picture of me somewhere sitting at the fifth grade lunch table with Donna the Horse Girl and she has a horse notebook in front of her and I have a copy of Stephen King's Firestarter, which pretty much sums me up, childhood-wise. The juxtaposition, not the book. Try as I might, I am still unable to set things on fire with my mind. :(

she is writing about love (Jenny), Monday, 4 January 2010 19:33 (fourteen years ago) link

ha - that reminds me of roxy's posts that started us on the topic of young adult novels!

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 19:35 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah i was def not into horses at all. they scared me.

DAN P3RRY MAD AT GRANDMA (just1n3), Monday, 4 January 2010 19:36 (fourteen years ago) link

i never "got" science fiction but i don't think it's for boys really

jortin shartgent (harbl), Monday, 4 January 2010 19:36 (fourteen years ago) link

I did love those Anne McCaffrey dragon books. I had the whole series, and the parallel "Harper Hall" ones too. Mostly what I loved about them was the lack of conservative sexual mores because I was sure I was never going to kiss/date/sexor more than one person in my life and it was going to be the one I married and I was pretty in despair about it. But hey, what can you do about God's will?

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Monday, 4 January 2010 19:37 (fourteen years ago) link

well - most of the girls in our class weren't into it except me & sabrina.

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 19:38 (fourteen years ago) link

On other other hand, as joshea is sure to point out, I got to drive a dune buggy. So maybe it evened out.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Monday, 4 January 2010 19:38 (fourteen years ago) link

you were cooler than me - i did logic and math problems with my dad, when i wasn't making up elaborate sci-fi epics with barbies with sabrina.

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 19:39 (fourteen years ago) link

l u know ilu!

tehresa, Monday, 4 January 2010 19:40 (fourteen years ago) link

I was pretty wild about Anne McCaffrey, too.

xp - logic and math and Barbies are also cool!

she is writing about love (Jenny), Monday, 4 January 2010 19:40 (fourteen years ago) link

Yes, we did logic problems at the dinner table, and also "Think of words that include the syllable '-round'" (ie around, surround, roundhouse, quarter-round, etc) sort of family competitions.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Monday, 4 January 2010 19:41 (fourteen years ago) link

we played "i'm thinking of a word that rhymes with" games on long road trips - my dad's West Virginia accent was kinda a handicap in this, because he believed that "since" and "fence" rhymed.

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 19:43 (fourteen years ago) link

People in books that I read were always going on about the Beauty of Nature, and communing with the woods, and getting a spiritual charge from wilderness, and blah blah blah. I remember sitting in a tree and trying to feel something, but nada. I guess when you live in the country it's hard to find the outdoors remarkable?

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Monday, 4 January 2010 19:44 (fourteen years ago) link

because he believed that "since" and "fence" rhymed.

Haha! I like this. We sang songs in the car -- rounds and hymns and folksongs and show tunes from all of history that my mother knew. She had a song for every occasion (still does).

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Monday, 4 January 2010 19:46 (fourteen years ago) link

I don't even know where half of them come from, tho I bet I could google.

"I love you a bushel and a peck / a bushel and a peck and a hug around the neck" <--- why I knew that a "peck" was a unit of measurement

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Monday, 4 January 2010 19:47 (fourteen years ago) link

lol that's like how where i grew up "pin" and "pen" rhymed!

tehresa, Monday, 4 January 2010 19:47 (fourteen years ago) link

xp - that's from Guys and Dolls, i believe.

tza - according to my dad, pin and pen also rhyme.

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 19:48 (fourteen years ago) link

I really really wanted to be a top rollerskater and have a satin jacket that would billow out with the wind. Unfortunately for that dream, I wasn't allowed to go to the roller rink much b/c the kids there were too "rough" and because it cost money (sending us out to play in the woods was free).

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Monday, 4 January 2010 19:53 (fourteen years ago) link

i was a cat girl - i drew cats on everything when i was a kid. i think i also liked stories about large families where there were a lot of kids, because i was an only child. but maybe the large family thing was due to me liking epic things with a lot of characters. i was also really into greek mythology.

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 19:55 (fourteen years ago) link

would like to be a top rollerskater and have a billowy satin jacket right now

horseshoe, Monday, 4 January 2010 19:56 (fourteen years ago) link

I know! Someday I would master the cross-over cornering maneuver and then I would be So Cool.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Monday, 4 January 2010 19:59 (fourteen years ago) link

i can do that maneuver! or i could when i was 10. /braggin 2010

horseshoe, Monday, 4 January 2010 19:59 (fourteen years ago) link

I had a book on how to draw cats. I was really into it.

Still can't rollerskate, though.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Monday, 4 January 2010 20:00 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah, I can't rollerskate either - there was a period in high school where my friends were into rollerskating, and I went with them sometimes, but I was horrible at it. And there was this guy, Steve, who wore hypercolor shirts and might have had a crush on me, and who I then threw non-dairy creamer at and hit him in the face, and I think if he had a crush on me before, he didn't after that. I forget why i threw creamer at him.

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 20:02 (fourteen years ago) link

I think I accepted that, no matter how many "Learn to Draw!" books the Scholastic Bookclub offered, it was an art, inherited only by the elite, and beyond my abilities. I went with origami instead.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Monday, 4 January 2010 20:02 (fourteen years ago) link

we used to have rollerskating birthday parties. they were the best. now the roller rink is like, meth central :(

tehresa, Monday, 4 January 2010 20:03 (fourteen years ago) link

tbh i can't believe it's still there!

tehresa, Monday, 4 January 2010 20:03 (fourteen years ago) link

i'm still a pretty good rollerskater iirc

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Monday, 4 January 2010 20:04 (fourteen years ago) link

got my own skates, no big deal

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Monday, 4 January 2010 20:04 (fourteen years ago) link

I'm pretty sure that both La Lech and Jenny would have been out of my league in coolness in jr high.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Monday, 4 January 2010 20:06 (fourteen years ago) link

I'm so glad we're (nominally) grown-ups now.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Monday, 4 January 2010 20:06 (fourteen years ago) link

with better haircuts and fashion sense.

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 20:09 (fourteen years ago) link

Naw, girl. I was generally well-liked and didn't get stuffed in lockers or anything, but I was too poor/fat/smart/non-athletic and then later stoned to be in the popular clique.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Monday, 4 January 2010 20:12 (fourteen years ago) link

i was totally not cool in jr high. for example: remember how i said i went to all girls school? i didn't know a SINGLE BOY from K-7th grade. no cousins, no neighborhood kids, no brothers or friends with brothers, no boys at all. it's difficult to impress how weird this was, but it was true.

in 8th grade, i went to public school. on the first day, in homeroom, these boys whose names started with R or S (hence in my homeroom) descended on me because i was new. i just sat there, terrified. from that moment on, i was not cool. i was weird. i went from being an affable and sort of weird 12 year old to being a totally withdrawn, bored, terrified, antisocial 13 year old. what else did i have to do but listen to records and rollerskate by myself? that doesn't mean i was cool. i was quiet and weird.

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Monday, 4 January 2010 20:14 (fourteen years ago) link

Well, if you say so. I probably would have thought you were kind of tough, though. xp to Jenny

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Monday, 4 January 2010 20:15 (fourteen years ago) link

if anyone had bothered to get to know me, maybe i would have been kind of cool?

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Monday, 4 January 2010 20:16 (fourteen years ago) link

Single-sex schools with no non-school integration makes for a WEIRD LIFE for SURE.

The healthiest person who went to an all-girls school that I know is actually Australian. I think they do it differently there. Also, she got to be in some kind of quasi-military Junior Cadets program in which you actually FIRE WEAPONS and PARACHUTE OUT OF THINGS and get to order around boys of your own age. I can't think of a single thing that would have been more fun at age 14.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Monday, 4 January 2010 20:17 (fourteen years ago) link

went from being an affable and sort of weird 12 year old to being a totally withdrawn, bored, terrified, antisocial 13 year old.

Aww - that was me going from 6th grade to junior high - except I was 11. That was the same time that sabrina and i stopped being friends. I think my one friend in 7th grade was this girl Christina, whose brothers were in a gang, and she admired my stubborn resolve to chew gum in class no matter how many times I got detention for it, because i thought it was a dumb rule.

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 20:19 (fourteen years ago) link

Here's a question/discussion for you all. I frequently feel like I was more "myself" in early and mid childhood, say ages 8, 9, 10 -- and then went against all my personality traits and instincts for the next decade. For a long time, most of my mental "adulthood", I've felt more like myself at 10 than myself at 20, 21, 22, and maybe even older than that.

Does anyone else agree/identify with the statement that their adult mental/emotional journey is about getting back to being 10? I was a good 10-year-old.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Monday, 4 January 2010 20:24 (fourteen years ago) link

yes! I was talking about this with my mom a few weeks ago! She was talking about how the thing she loved the most when she was 10 was getting to sit in the office of her dad's meat company and play with the 10 key calculator and have all these salt-of-the-earth men around that told dirty jokes and funny stories, and how her current job - which she really likes - is kinda like that.

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 20:27 (fourteen years ago) link

I feel like, in a lot of ways, my adolescence was a betrayal of my more confident, more practical childhood persona; somehow I knew MORE about the important stuff when I knew less about the world.

Of course I had religion helping me undermine myself, but there's plenty of other things that'll do it for you too.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Monday, 4 January 2010 20:32 (fourteen years ago) link

But yeah - I think there've been a lot of articles about this - focusing on girls - how they're really self-assured and awesome when they're 9-11, and then they start having a lot of the standard problems associated with teenage-ness and become unhappy/insecure.

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 20:34 (fourteen years ago) link

I have read some articles about studies showing that girls tend to be very confident until they hit puberty, at which point the Patriarchy Oppression Machine really kicks in and girls start to report feeling like shit/hating themselves. XP!!!!

I had some rough childhood years from 7 until about 13, so I definitely don't identify. I think I first really started feeling comfortably like myself when I turned 30.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Monday, 4 January 2010 20:36 (fourteen years ago) link

i was a lot more introverted as a child. even though i'm not the most outgoing person now, i'm like 10000x less socially anxious than i was at age 10. i don't think it helped that i transfered from nerdy montessori school where my weirdness was encouraged to public school in grade 4 and was immediately pegged as a horrible dork.

tehresa, Monday, 4 January 2010 20:36 (fourteen years ago) link

tbh i like myself better now than at any previous time in my life. it's fun to be nostalgic for old times, but i don't think i'd ever want to relive them.

tehresa, Monday, 4 January 2010 20:37 (fourteen years ago) link

Ahh! That makes so much sense. Probably in a few minutes either Amanda or horseshoe or Jenny will come along and tell us she did a dissertation on such things and it will all become clear. xp hah!

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Monday, 4 January 2010 20:37 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah - my childhood was a bit rough too - i hit puberty pretty early - I think I was 8 or 9, which was kinda traumatic, but it meant that i looked older and was taller than most of the kids in my class, even though i was the youngest. I was a weird kid, but I don't think i had a clue that i was weird, or that it mattered until junior high.

but when i was 10, i liked playing music, and making up stories with my friends, and performing, and reading, and making up lessons and lectures about things - and uh, this isn't all that different from what i do now that i really enjoy.

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 20:41 (fourteen years ago) link

tbh i like myself better now than at any previous time in my life. it's fun to be nostalgic for old times, but i don't think i'd ever want to relive them.
truth bomb

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Monday, 4 January 2010 20:43 (fourteen years ago) link

Well no! I mean, look at how much of what we all thought about was purely aspirational? It was about what we wanted to BECOME, not who we were. Which strikes me as pretty healthy/normal for the younger ages but obv now is better!

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Monday, 4 January 2010 20:46 (fourteen years ago) link

Eeeee Sarah I remember being in fifth grade and a couple of boys snatching my purse and threatening to look in "that little zipper pocket" which of course contained a tampon. Gut wrenching terror.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Monday, 4 January 2010 20:48 (fourteen years ago) link

Yeah - it's just working through the baggage of the interim years, and the things that constrained you when you were younger - some of that being the limits of childhood awareness of the world, as well as environmental and family stuff - but recognizing the hope and joy of those years, and a certain authenticity to self - maybe? But of course, it's better being in your 30s, because you have more power over your life.

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 20:52 (fourteen years ago) link

xp - jenny - i got my period the day before my 10th birthday - and i was having a slumber party at my house.

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 20:53 (fourteen years ago) link

yikes
i didn't get mine for real til i was 15, but i was built like a mosquito so

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Monday, 4 January 2010 20:56 (fourteen years ago) link

Also now if boys try to get into the little pockets of my purse, I just offer them a tampon. Or call the cops, whichever.

Aw, Sarah! That's the pits! I was ten when I got mine. I didn't get my first period at camp, but I went away to camp sometime during my tenth year, and of course had my period, and of course forgot to take a pad out of the pocket of my shorts, which the counselor washed, and then held up as an example to all the other bleeding girls about the importance of checking one's pockets before sending clothes to the laundry.

This is my "favorite" period story. The daughter of our junior high school nurse was in my class. During "The Talk," the nurse was talking about different kinds of pads and tampons and the importance of hygiene during that special time when she suddenly got really adamant and said, "And if you leak, don't just throw your bloody panties in the laundry for your mother to clean up! You wash out your panties yourself!" My classmate, who had obviously failed in this little test of responsible womanhood, likedta died, the poor thing.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Monday, 4 January 2010 20:59 (fourteen years ago) link

holy shit!! that story is great!

sarahel, Monday, 4 January 2010 21:01 (fourteen years ago) link

oh gosh that poor girl!

tehresa, Monday, 4 January 2010 21:02 (fourteen years ago) link

TBF I have never thrown my blood panties in the laundry for my mother to clean up, and they say it's all worth it if you get through to just one kid, so...

she is writing about love (Jenny), Monday, 4 January 2010 21:03 (fourteen years ago) link

omg that is one raw story

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Monday, 4 January 2010 21:05 (fourteen years ago) link

I watched a movie last night in which an unpopular girl got a (clean) pad stuck to the back of her dress at a party and made fun of, and two of my best adult female friends were saying how they would have been the kind of 15-year-old who did the deed, and I had to say I would have been the 15-year-old who had it done to her. Interesting moment. At some point I became IRL friends mostly with former bullies.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Monday, 4 January 2010 21:07 (fourteen years ago) link

i am irl friends with jenny !!

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Monday, 4 January 2010 21:25 (fourteen years ago) link

High five!!!

she is writing about love (Jenny), Monday, 4 January 2010 21:31 (fourteen years ago) link

Late to party as usual (stupid timezones) but I was always weirded out by horsey girls in school.

Me, I was into mermaids. Drew them and wanted to be one. Um.

millivanillimillenary (Trayce), Monday, 4 January 2010 22:30 (fourteen years ago) link

I went to a mixed primary school and then we moved and I ended up at a single-sex secondary school. Went from being a tomboy with 95% male friends to having pretty much none at all. These were the years when I also realised that I was ugly and nerdy and that this was going to matter. Often wonder if the boys I'd previously been friends with would've stuck around if I'd gone to the same school, and what difference this would've made to my adult psyche.

(Wasn't exactly alone cz I had friends at school, but at parties the boys would not talk to me at all, and my friends would of course go to where the cute guys were, which was generally wherever I was not. Eventually I realised that I hated this and didn't have to do it and ducked out of having much social life outside school.)

I dunno about being more me at any point, but puberty definitely felt like a long series of pummelings to the self-esteem, starting with the first time I ever stopped to ask myself if I was a good person, and reached the answer "probably not, really, no," aged abt 9 or 10.

I feel like being a tomboy, playing with boys' toys, reading books with male protagonists whose maleness is not really spelt out because why would it be, I was in denial about the whole growing up to be a woman thing until that first period. Like, I was just going to be a person who does things and is cool and awesome, and people who do things and are cool and awesome don't happen to be women, according to my view of the world age 7 or so. This is either pretty much universal or a really weird thing to admit, I have no idea which...

⍨ (a passing spacecadet), Monday, 4 January 2010 23:03 (fourteen years ago) link

i don't know how weird it is - but then i was kinda similar - i was pretty oblivious to gender stuff growing up, being raised on the whole "Free to Be You and Me" thing by liberal parents.

sarahel, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 01:02 (fourteen years ago) link

I wasn't really into horses even though I rode from 5-13 or so and had a horse for a while. It was just never really my thing. My real thing was music and I played the violin and piano for years and almost went to music school. I guess I was an orchestra geek when it comes down to it.

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 05:09 (fourteen years ago) link

I happened to have this pic on FB - that's me on the R and my still v good to this day friend Phoebe on the left. The horse was called Two Eyed Friday.

http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2303/137/25/727781067/n727781067_2530176_3217.jpg

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 05:11 (fourteen years ago) link

i would have been amusic geek but our schools did not have good music programs so instead i went to reg school half days and arts school half days (there it was acceptable to be a music geek). when i went to music school for college everyone just assumed i went to juilliard bc it was a music school in ny. no one knew that there was anything in ny state outside the city. lol.

tehresa, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 05:13 (fourteen years ago) link

Yeah my music talents were trashed because I went to a shitty rural state school with no resources and had piano lessons and nothing pushing/driving me :( Least, thats how I see it. If I really wanted to I could have done better I suppose.

millivanillimillenary (Trayce), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 05:15 (fourteen years ago) link

Tza you went to Eastman, right? I almost went there! :)

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 05:16 (fourteen years ago) link

yep

tehresa, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 05:17 (fourteen years ago) link

Guys, when I was a freshman I begged my parents to get me a HS jacket that actually said, instead of a sports team, "orchestra" on the back. Yes, it was that bad. What's worse is that my dad still has the fucking thing and tries to convince me to wear it every single winter. :/

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 05:30 (fourteen years ago) link

hahaha i did varsity swimming but i did not et the jacket bc lol

tehresa, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 05:40 (fourteen years ago) link

Yeah, I know - exactly. I went to an all-girls HS (read: was socially inept), had braces, Sally Jesse Raphael lolhuge glasses, a varsity ORCHESTRA jacket and was fat until I was about 16. I was NAGL. Pretty late bloomer tbh.

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 05:42 (fourteen years ago) link

tbh i think i just bloomed like 3 years ago.

tehresa, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 06:48 (fourteen years ago) link

Does anyone else agree/identify with the statement that their adult mental/emotional journey is about getting back to being 10?

in a lot of ways, i sure do. i can tell it's taken a long time to even start to get away from learning in my early teens to be super cynical, negative, etc., feeling like a complete freak and weirdo, which tends to happen when people say you are that. small towns. high school was the worst! i switched schools, my parents split up, and the few kids i hung out with were messed up in the head & treated each other (and me) pretty horribly. i was prob awful to them too in my own way, and didn't realize. i think everything started to go wrong around 6th-7th grade when i started feeling like i was ugly, had bad glasses, didn't know how to dress. patriarchy oppression machine + catholic church (what's the difference?) it's nice to know other people had some of the same experiences.

kicker conspiracy (s. suisham ha ha) (daria-g), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 07:44 (fourteen years ago) link

wait i thought "since" and "fence" did rhyme!? now that i've tried to say both words about a dozen times, i can tell how they don't rhyme, but i'm pretty sure when i normally say them, they do.

kicker conspiracy (s. suisham ha ha) (daria-g), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 07:56 (fourteen years ago) link

they are completely different vowels!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

tehresa, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 07:59 (fourteen years ago) link

not if you say it like "sense". it's supposed to rhyme with "wince" i suppose?

kicker conspiracy (s. suisham ha ha) (daria-g), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 08:18 (fourteen years ago) link

most of the U.S. : fence rhymes with sense; it does not rhyme with since or wince, which rhyme with each other

other parts of the U.S.: these words all rhyme: sense, fence, since, wince - though some pronounce them all with the short "i" and others pronounce them all with the short "e"

sarahel, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 08:23 (fourteen years ago) link

ie substitution is a linguist's worst nightmare!

tehresa, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 09:02 (fourteen years ago) link

here's a thing - that's sorta gender related, maybe, in the sense that women are supposed to be other-focused and conciliatory and such. My accent changes depending on whom I'm speaking to. I occasionally feel like I don't have a "real" accent, because of this. I was having drinks with a friend, who grew up in Chicago a while ago, and she said I totally have a Midwestern accent, and then I suggested that I have a Midwestern accent when I'm talking to her or her & her husband because they both have Midwestern accents.

sarahel, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 09:05 (fourteen years ago) link

my dad picks up other people's accents when he's talking to them and he's not very conciliatory or other-focused!

lords of hyrule (c sharp major), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 12:09 (fourteen years ago) link

I lettered in band! And theater!

she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 14:26 (fourteen years ago) link

allow me to drop some SLA here:
that's not necessarily gender related -- sometimes one's attachment to one's phonological patterns (or language in general) is sometimes referred to as the language ego. People with strong language egos maintain their original phonological inventory even in situations where no one else is using their dialect. They also have difficulty learning new languages because they are very attached to the way that they speak, for whatever reason. This is not you.

People who do not have strong language egos often shift dialects and have less difficulty learning new languages because they are willing to hear different sounds coming out of their mouths and are comfortable sounding different than they usually do.

This is not to say that there aren't sociolinguistic reasons why women accomodate or even mimic the dominant speaker's dialect, but men do it too. Depends on how you look at it I guess.

Before I became a sullen teenager, I was a language nerd -- in 6th grade for national reading week (or whatever it was called) I went with my mom to have a special tshirt made. On the front it said "I LOVE TO READ" and on the back it said "ME GUSTA LEER" and guess who everyone made fun of that national reading week.

:(

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 14:34 (fourteen years ago) link

Amanda, that shirt is awesome and people who made fun if you are the herkiest jerks ever and I totally would have hung out with you.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 15:13 (fourteen years ago) link

Aww! :(

Interesting post. Where does one's "language ego" come from? Does a strong language ego impair the un-spoken aspects of language learning, or just cripple your chances of speaking convincingly?

I love the idea of learning foreign languages, but actually I only really speak English. My French and German accents were both terrible and I'm not confident at speaking other languages out loud; when I have lived in other regions of the UK I've enjoyed learning new slang or noticing accent differences, but I haven't picked up the accent naturally and would be scared to try it consciously in case it sounded like mockery. I would love to change this but I guess it is too late to weaken my language ego.

⍨ (a passing spacecadet), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 15:17 (fourteen years ago) link

i never thought of it that way. i am good at learning languages because i can memorize a lot of small things and patterns well. but i am not good at making accents. i hated taking french because it sounds crazy to me and impossible for my mouth to make those ridiculous sounds. i still got like a 100 in the class. does that mean i have a strong language ego or i'm just too cool for school?

jortin shartgent (harbl), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 15:20 (fourteen years ago) link

Does a strong language ego impair the un-spoken aspects of language learning, or just cripple your chances of speaking convincingly?

yeah this is more what i mean

jortin shartgent (harbl), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 15:21 (fourteen years ago) link

i would think the answer is no but at the same time i'm better at writing (well, not on internet message boards lol) than speaking irl too. maybe i just don't value speaking that much.

jortin shartgent (harbl), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 15:22 (fourteen years ago) link

irl = in english

jortin shartgent (harbl), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 15:23 (fourteen years ago) link

It's never too late, but it can be painful and difficult during the process. Take it from one who knows...

I'm not sure where it comes from precisely -- what's important is to recognize where yours is and, if you wish, be aware of the implications it has on your language learning. I'm sure that there are ramifications for written language as well, but usually it affects spoken language more because it's subject to more ridicule. On the other hand, I will add that a lot of people I work with (native Spanish speakers) have no problem speaking to me in English, but refuse to write email because they're afraid of making mistakes. They often don't realize this is why they "don't like" email, but this is why. They're afraid of being judged. It happens. (Of course I wouldn't judge them, but fear doesn't care about that)

I teach people to speak another language all day long (except during winter/summer breaks, natch) and I see all types -- but in general, successful language learners are not afraid to make mistakes, sound weird, or hear unfamiliar sounds coming out of their mouths.

Coincidentally, this applies to developmental learners as well. You have no idea how much resistance I get to the word "subsequently." "But no one uses that word!" "It's weird!" "It's stupid!"

Sigh. Back to work today, btw.

xp - part of communicating is speaking, so i would say you have a strong one

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 15:25 (fourteen years ago) link

i really liked speaking spanish w/ my friend who is a native speaker but sometimes he would be like "say that again hahahahahaha" because he liked to hear certain words in my awful accent

jortin shartgent (harbl), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 15:28 (fourteen years ago) link

I have native Spanish-speaking friends who encourage me to practice w them but yes, I am resistant to looking/sounding/feeling foolish so I don't. This isn't about accent (mine isn't completely terrible) or palette-formation issues, just my own frustration and/or insecurity.

However I FAIL at French and find all the sounds completely mysterious and un-form-able. And it might behoove me to study some German soon which arrrgh will be really starting all over since I've only done Romance languages before.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 15:51 (fourteen years ago) link

I can read and understand a decent amount of Spanish, and I'm good at... I'm not sure what to call it... figuring out the puzzle of other languages, maybe? Like, I took German and it just clicked and made so much sense. But speaking other languages makes me feel like I have marbles in my mouth.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 15:55 (fourteen years ago) link

Oh let me disclaim: most of my Spanish skills are focused on a specific subset of employment-related vocabulary words.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 15:56 (fourteen years ago) link

this is kind of moving away from the topic a little, but when i was a kid i had serious anxiety issues about saying certain words - not because i ~couldn't~ say them or pronounce them, but the words themselves made me feel uncomfortable. i started calling my step-dad 'dad' after a couple of years simply because i COULD NOT bring myself to say his name out loud ('lex') - it just creeped me out.

even now, as an adult, i sometimes get this.

DAN P3RRY MAD AT GRANDMA (just1n3), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 16:00 (fourteen years ago) link

Ugh, I had French lessons at school for 7 years and got good grades in it thanks to written/reading work but faced with the average French word I can think of about 6 different options for what vowel sound they want and which letters are silent.

German is a lot less mysterious accent-wise (at times I even kind of enjoy trying to speak it) but goddamn if I will ever get the German "eh" vowel not to sound like the most English "ay" ever while still keeping it distinct from the "ie" vowel (it's sort of halfway between the two, but my mouth doesn't seem to have an in-between). Luckily it seems a lot easier to be understood despite bad accents in German too, in my limited experience.

successful language learners are not afraid to make mistakes, sound weird, or hear unfamiliar sounds coming out of their mouths.

Yeah, these are all things which bother me in other areas too - suppose it shouldn't be a surprise that language confidence should be related to, e.g., would I dare sing in public (not at all, can't hit the notes, don't even sing in private much because of that) but I'd never thought about it.

⍨ (a passing spacecadet), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 16:08 (fourteen years ago) link

Is it mostly people's names or a variety of words? xp to J.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 16:10 (fourteen years ago) link

it's a variety of words. trying to think of others, but my dad's name is the one that sticks out.

DAN P3RRY MAD AT GRANDMA (just1n3), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 16:11 (fourteen years ago) link

i had a terrible stutter growing up, so i feel you on that.

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 16:14 (fourteen years ago) link

taking 7 semesters of various diction classes makes me wish everyone knew ipa bc it realllly helps so much in pronunciation! still, even with the rules right there, people who were fine speaking and singing in german and italian would freak out over french! i don't get it! to me, the hardest of all was english lyric diction.

tehresa, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 16:41 (fourteen years ago) link

also i've always been fascinated by code switching but language ego is a new term for me and i <3 it!

tehresa, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 16:42 (fourteen years ago) link

i'm excited about having a strong language ego

jortin shartgent (harbl), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 16:45 (fourteen years ago) link

taking 7 semesters of various diction classes makes me wish everyone knew ipa bc it realllly helps so much in pronunciation!
this is why i can't read pronunciation threads -- 150,000 posts could be eliminated if people would just use ipa

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 16:46 (fourteen years ago) link

hahaha yes!!!

tehresa, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 16:47 (fourteen years ago) link

i was so nerdy about it i used to take notes in class by writing them in ipa when i got bored.

tehresa, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 16:47 (fourteen years ago) link

i like code switching too because i work with a lot of generation 1.5 students

haha -- i used to do that too!!

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 16:47 (fourteen years ago) link

usually it was too hard though

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 16:48 (fourteen years ago) link

You are a bunch of cunning linguists.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 16:48 (fourteen years ago) link

i worked in a call center for a while and i would always catch myself switching depending on where the person on the other end of the line was calling from. it was kinda fun.

tehresa, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 16:49 (fourteen years ago) link

accents, not languages, though.

tehresa, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 16:49 (fourteen years ago) link

my grandmother (from long island) used to "code-switch" on the phone but her code switching was more talking VERY LOUD to her german step-mother as if she was deaf

jortin shartgent (harbl), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 16:54 (fourteen years ago) link

Okay, taking a page from the meta-thread and also the shopping poll, do we even want to broach the shopping question here? Or should we continue just organically talking about linguistics and stuff? Which is already pretty cool, esp the language ego stuff which I didn't know anything about!

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 17:44 (fourteen years ago) link

it's more fun here
we can talk about shopping but not about hating shopping? i mean like, let's embrace it!

tehresa, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 17:45 (fourteen years ago) link

i don't want to embrace shopping

jortin shartgent (harbl), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 17:46 (fourteen years ago) link

shopping? i could talk about that..

i guess i'm not bad at learning languages.. i want to work on spanish, my french is pretty good including the accent, but i had to sit down with a tape recorder and record/play back many many times to get rid of the obvious anglophone sounds. also uh drinking a bit helps, to get past the worry about making mistakes! after a couple glasses of wine i suddenly remembered a lot of francais vocabulary that i hadn't used in years.

kicker conspiracy (s. suisham ha ha) (daria-g), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 17:46 (fourteen years ago) link

i sometimes have dreams in spanish and my accent is perfect

jortin shartgent (harbl), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 17:47 (fourteen years ago) link

I mean basically ILX wimmenz are NOT en masse going to respond "OMG I JUST LOVE TO GO TO THE MALL WITH MY BFFS EVERY SUNDAY" because obv lols. So we can get that out of the way. But are we free of the pressure to go too far the other direction and disavow shopping entirely just because it might have too-typically "feminine" connotations?

How about having an informed-consumer approach in which you are interested in getting the best thing that you need/want for its own sake?

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 17:48 (fourteen years ago) link

i need to go back and relearn things. i feel bad for forgetting most of it!
i tried teaching myself russian once but instead i just taught myself how to pronounce it by ipa-ing stuff instead of actually learning to read it/understand it.

tehresa, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 17:48 (fourteen years ago) link

i feel more free when i stay out of the mall, feminine connotations aside

jortin shartgent (harbl), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 17:49 (fourteen years ago) link

i think the thing i'm not good at with shopping is the informed-consumer approach! Most of the time, i just want to buy a thing and get out. I don't even like ebay cos it's too full of decisions you have to take a long time over.

lords of hyrule (c sharp major), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 17:50 (fourteen years ago) link

xp to harbl, agreed to infinity. I feel like a better person when I stay out of stores completely. I used to shop for "fun" because the variety of artistic and desirable things in NYC was mind-boggling to me. But it made me sadder and sadder that I would never be able to consume beautiful things at the rates that they were offered. Too many choices, too much stimulation, too much wanting.

So I stopped going to stores except on a mission for things. I also stopped reading ANY fashion magazines around the same time, for whatever that's worth.

Now I'm about 3x happier and have less stuff.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 17:51 (fourteen years ago) link

I don't feel pressured to hate shopping, but I find recreational shopping to be one of the most boring, disappointing, and pointless ways to spend my free time.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 17:52 (fourteen years ago) link

i just hate everything in my closet right now (l, you experienced this to some extent when we tried to dress me for soul club!) but i don't have the $ to buy new stuff so i just dream about shopping for new clothes which i think makes me think i like shopping more than i do.

tehresa, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 17:53 (fourteen years ago) link

I like shopping for books about language.

tokyo rosemary, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 17:53 (fourteen years ago) link

very low tolerance for aimless shopping or shopping with other people
still wearing clothes i had in college and one sweater from high school
i get bossy/intolerant when shopping with others and they are indecisive

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 17:54 (fourteen years ago) link

ugh so do i!

jortin shartgent (harbl), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 17:55 (fourteen years ago) link

i get frustrated when i shop too bc i always have a particular cut/item in mind and then i can NEVER find it.

tehresa, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 17:55 (fourteen years ago) link

Hahahahahaha. Yes. My mom took me shopping in MI and I ignored her for basically hours as I blitzed through sale racks.

She kept being like, "How about this?" (holds up thing that I hate).

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 17:56 (fourteen years ago) link

ugh

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 17:57 (fourteen years ago) link

my mom got me work pants for xmas and i liked them except she accidentally (?) ordered xtra long. lol mom.

jortin shartgent (harbl), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 17:58 (fourteen years ago) link

No, she was good overall, esp when she started holding up joke items and we were so tired that it became hilarious. At one point she said, "Stop talking to me like I'm an idiot" and I said, "I will if you stop talking to me."

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 17:58 (fourteen years ago) link

i still remember going to the thrift store with my high school friends and getting into a MAJOR fight with them about who was going to buy the smaller burgundy velvet blazer
NEVER AGAIN thrift shoppin with friends
i turned into a monster!

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 17:59 (fourteen years ago) link

i remember barking DO YOU WANT IT OR NOT YES OR NO YES OR NO

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 17:59 (fourteen years ago) link

lol my high school self wants that blazer!

tehresa, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 18:00 (fourteen years ago) link

actually, i have very little tolerance for people who involve me in their long, arduous, vocal decisionmaking

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 18:01 (fourteen years ago) link

over trivial things, like buying a sixty cent blazer

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 18:01 (fourteen years ago) link

i get frustrated when i shop too bc i always have a particular cut/item in mind and then i can NEVER find it.

Important keys to efficient shopping, I think: a) have a really clear idea of what kind of thing is acceptable to you, and immediately mentally discard everything else. Do not get sidetracked by something that's on sale if it's not your style/on your list!! and b) Be willing to leave the store with NOTHING if you don't find what you wanted. Do not buy just to have something to show for your time.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 18:10 (fourteen years ago) link

that is pretty much what i do but then i will end up looking for a pair of tennis shoes i really like for 6 months while the ones on my feet are disintegrating. nagl.

tehresa, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 18:12 (fourteen years ago) link

I used to shop for "fun" because the variety of artistic and desirable things in NYC was mind-boggling to me. But it made me sadder and sadder that I would never be able to consume beautiful things at the rates that they were offered. Too many choices, too much stimulation, too much wanting.

So I stopped going to stores except on a mission for things.

Yeah - I'm the same way! Yesterday, I had to force myself to buy the vacuum cleaner I was there to buy, and nothing else.

sarahel, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 18:16 (fourteen years ago) link

I spend way too much on clothes and really need to not do that tbh. I do have a good idea of what suits me and would go in my wardrobe and all.. Trouble is that can still justify a lot of stuff. Maybe a lot of it is just interest in color and pattern and such and I should do collage instead

kicker conspiracy (s. suisham ha ha) (daria-g), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 18:45 (fourteen years ago) link

hahahahaha Daria the world needs more YSL vintage finds and less collage TBH - play to yr strengths.

sacher torte reform (suzy), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 19:32 (fourteen years ago) link

a) have a really clear idea of what kind of thing is acceptable to you, and immediately mentally discard everything else. Do not get sidetracked by something that's on sale if it's not your style/on your list!! and b) Be willing to leave the store with NOTHING if you don't find what you wanted.

Yeah, see the problem is that there is never anything that fits the really clear idea of what is acceptable to me, and I generally leave with nothing. Then an occasion arrives when I actually need a thing that I do not have, because I have been waiting until I find the thing I really want, at which point I have to make a furious round of all the plus-size clothing retailers in Chicago attempting to find something so simple and necessary and yet so fucking elusive as a plain god damn black cardigan made from a material that is suitable for a professional workplace. (Note: Talbot's, bless their conservative little hearts, finally started carrying such an item, and there is one on the way to me as we speak.) So shopping for clothes is just brutal for me.

When shopping for some other item, I tend to approach it like a precision military operation. Determine which item I wish to purchase through research. Determine the cheapest place I can purchase said item local, with allowances for location, convenience, and timing. Check to see if I can purchase this item on line somewhere cheaper and whether the shipping costs are offset by crazypants Chicago sales tax. If I decide to purchase said item from a local brick and mortar store, I will go in, secure said item, and GTFO.

Unless I'm going to Target. I'll poke around a little bit in Target.

Discount places like TJ Maxx or Marshall's are like living hell to me. I'll go to Nordstrom Rack but only for shoes because they have an awesome selection of size 10 shoes.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 19:35 (fourteen years ago) link

Basically I buy everything I possibly can at the giant Macy's on State Street because I can walk there from work via the Pedway during my lunch hour, I know where everything is, and I can get a tamale from Frontera Fresca as a reward for my pain.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 19:37 (fourteen years ago) link

Yeah I guess it helps to have "a style" which is just whatever you know you like and feel good in (as long as that is not "dirty jeans and a band Tshirt" because in that case yeah you're going to hate shopping). Then, anything that isn't "your" style, ie peasant tops, things with uh sequins or lace, boot-cut pants, ANY pants, etc, you can just shove them out of the way and mentally clear the decks for a nice straight skirt that you will actually bother to try on.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 19:42 (fourteen years ago) link

I want a tamale, though.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 19:43 (fourteen years ago) link

peasant tops, things with uh sequins or lace, boot-cut pants

You just described 95% of all stock in every plus-size women's retail clothing store ever.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 19:44 (fourteen years ago) link

That's really good advice, Laurel - however, it can be annoying, and sometimes traumatic when you rarely find things you can feel good in, because they're not made in your size, or in flattering styles. That whole Sarahel's Semiotics thread was inspired because of my frustration over trying to find pants I'd want to wear.

sarahel, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 19:45 (fourteen years ago) link

xp - ha! I went into Lane Bryant over the Christmas holidays.

sarahel, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 19:46 (fourteen years ago) link

There is a woman who works here at my work who knows a woman who makes tamales and sells them, so every couple of weeks I get to put in a tamale order and the next day pick up a dozen homemade hot tamales. $11!!! That is shopping that I can totally get behind.

Lane Bryant and I are currently not on speaking terms, at least until all of my underwear totally gives out.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 19:47 (fourteen years ago) link

great, now i want a tamale!

tehresa, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 19:47 (fourteen years ago) link

Ooooooooh yes, those bastards. Do they think people over a size 8 (or 10, or 12, or whatever) are USING THEIR TONGUES FOR TASTE?? How about you shop in a PLUS-SIZED CLUE STORE, ya fucking idiots.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 19:48 (fourteen years ago) link

loooooooool @ "plus sized clue store"

she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 19:49 (fourteen years ago) link

macy's in ny has a plus floor that is actually pretty accurate larger reproductions of the same stuff in their misses section, but yeah, that was always reallllly annoying.

tehresa, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 19:49 (fourteen years ago) link

also for me, i was always in between where plus clothes looked baggy and terrible on me bc they were not made to be flattering, just to canopy, but reg clothes were a smidge too tight (always in the bust!). also i have a small butt in comparison to the rest of me so finding pants is a nightmare. if it fits in the waist the butt is saggy. booo. hissss.

tehresa, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 19:50 (fourteen years ago) link

i am familiar with the saggy butt problem

jortin shartgent (harbl), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 19:52 (fourteen years ago) link

it's like if you are fat you are supposed to have a fat ass, too!

tehresa, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 19:53 (fourteen years ago) link

stereotyping :(

tehresa, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 19:53 (fourteen years ago) link

I'm high-waisted, so the year or so when all the women's pants were either pleated mom trousers or low slung boy pants was pretty grim. I ended up going w/ the boy pants because I don't have much in the way of hips.

sarahel, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 19:54 (fourteen years ago) link

The Macy's here has a good plus section, too. Or at least it is larger than most. Being in between straight sizes and plus sizes is a huge pain in the ass, too.

Basically, off the rack clothes don't fit anybody ever. It's like Laurel said in the shopping thread - you've got to find a manufacturer/designer that suits you. Also a good tailor.

I met Chicago Sarah for lunch today and she told me that my outfit lacked only for saddle shoes to be at home in a Twin Peaks episode (which she meant as and I took as a compliment), so despite all this angst, I must be doing something right.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 19:56 (fourteen years ago) link

:D

tehresa, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 19:57 (fourteen years ago) link

AWW!

sarahel, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 19:58 (fourteen years ago) link

I solved my shopping problem by not going shopping, at least recreationally, and I solved the fitting-pants problem by not wearing pants. Viola.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 19:59 (fourteen years ago) link

I realize this is not an option for everybody.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 20:01 (fourteen years ago) link

should i go back to my style from the early 90s of wearing dresses and skirts with thick tights and clunky shoes and boots?

sarahel, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 20:01 (fourteen years ago) link

A friend of mine and I were recently talking about the day we realized that clunky shoes were no longer in style, and how we both got a little sad. And had to quick go buy some new shoes.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 20:03 (fourteen years ago) link

xp Do you feel like it's "you"? Will the things you have to do in your life accommodate that style of dress, ie can you make it work for both business and personal commitments? If yes to both, then Y!

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 20:04 (fourteen years ago) link

xp - I can't wear pumps or heels or anything with a narrow/small sole because otherwise I'd be returning to a world of pain.

I don't have the job I used to have that required me to wear pants, and I can play drums in a skirt/dress as long as it's not too narrow/tight. So, uh yeah. It's the shoes thing I worry about.

sarahel, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 20:06 (fourteen years ago) link

I cannot fathom committing to pantslessness in Chicago tbh

quincie, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 20:12 (fourteen years ago) link

i live in the SF bay area.

sarahel, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 20:16 (fourteen years ago) link

xp It's an art.

http://freelancersfashion.blogspot.com/2009/12/anatomy-of-dressing-when-its-really.html

sarah, I can't wear heels either.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 20:17 (fourteen years ago) link

i guess the thing for me - is to figure out what height/length of boots would be flattering with a dress or skirt, so that my legs don't look stumpy.

sarahel, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 20:19 (fourteen years ago) link

Huh. I think that's just something you need to develop an eye for, cos it's so individual and also on a case-by-case basis.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 20:20 (fourteen years ago) link

is it more flattering, if you have thick calves, for boots to hit somewhere on the calf, or slightly below?

sarahel, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 20:24 (fourteen years ago) link

A friend's calves were so thick she found it difficult to get knee-line boots at all.

Those giant scary platform heels or ankle boots with the studs, spikes and ginormous price tags do look good with thick tights and loose-fitting dresses/tops/sweaters. Also, the only way I will wear the peep toe (my feet are nice but I hate hangy-outy toes on me). I've been mostly wearing Etienne Aigner fake equestrian boots with skinny jeans and big sweaters/tulip-drape dresses but otherwise my mid-length boots are not suitable on this spin of fashion's carousel. Which is a shame - kitten heels are being revived soon and the Manolo Blahnik one-off pair of boots with same bought from random fashion archivist BITD would be fab to wear.

The '90s ended the second they stopped making Donna Karan black matte jersey tights - they are bulletproof and I have at least five undamaged pairs to this day.

sacher torte reform (suzy), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 20:25 (fourteen years ago) link

Yeah - you mentioned those tights way upthread, and I expressed my envy!

sarahel, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 20:27 (fourteen years ago) link

I was just remembering the other day that when I was young and my mom was getting "personal style" books out of the library, the rule was that boots should go a little bit UNDER the skirt hem, so that no leg showed. The idea being that a longer line in similar (dark-on-dark) colors would "lengthen" the leg visually.

More recently, the rule has been that there should be a slice of bare (or hoisery-ied) leg visible between boot and skirt hem. Apparently this is regardless of any visual trickery.

I don't have any nice boots so it's a moot point to me.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 20:27 (fourteen years ago) link

As a thick-calved women, I can say that I've worth both. Usually the shorter the skirt, the more I am inclined to go for taller boots. I'm wearing boots now that are similar to these here right now.

xp - yeah I have to look for "wide calf" or "extended size" boots if I want to wear boots higher than mid-shin.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 20:28 (fourteen years ago) link

I was dreaming of being able to afford Duo boots, Jenny, but they discontinued the 1 or 2 styles I liked anyway. Sad face.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 20:29 (fourteen years ago) link

huh - so i could do boots that are a little higher than ankle length and do mid-calf skirts, or slightly below the knee boots and slightly-above the knee skirts and not look I have sausages for legs?

sarahel, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 20:30 (fourteen years ago) link

I really like that dark plaid-ish dress that Justin3 posted on the wedding dress style help thread!!

sarahel, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 20:31 (fourteen years ago) link

If I wore heels, I'd have a pair of these so fast it'd make yer head spin: http://www.duoboots.com/products/boots/detail/calf_fitted_boots_boutique/madeira/243/colour/1-black_leather/

I managed to get mine when they were 1) on sale, and 2) offering free shipping. Happy face!

I'm actually wearing two pairs of tights today, speaking of wearing skirts in Chicago.

Sarah, yes, you could totally do that.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 20:31 (fourteen years ago) link

Oh! Here are my boots, the very ones I am wearing today: http://www.duoboots.com/products/boots/detail/calf_fitted_boots_everyday/naples/93/colour/1-black_leather/

she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 20:32 (fourteen years ago) link

I'm gonna wear a dress or a skirt today - you have inspired me!

sarahel, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 20:33 (fourteen years ago) link

They used to make a kitten-heeled, mid-calf patent leather pair with pointy toes -- alas, no longer.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 20:33 (fourteen years ago) link

Mom-sourced style books were WRONG.

Boots I have: Aigner, Blahnik, 13-hole steel cap Dr Marten, Kurt Geiger taupe suede with bows but also distinct junior high stonergirl vibe, black wedge knee boots, 2x French Connection ankle boots (1 black patent, 1 red patent), pointy black crocodile Valentino couture ankle boot with 5" spike heel. On, and black and chartreuse Etnies Girl moccasin boots in suede and leather, basically for those who don't do Uggs. There are other boots in storage somewhere but old, unloved etc. Would still be happy with those Mad Max/Balenciaga mindmeld ankle boots or similar hardware-looking things.

sacher torte reform (suzy), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 20:40 (fourteen years ago) link

You have to keep in mind, suzy, that the skirts in question were like long, tweedy, walking affairs.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 20:43 (fourteen years ago) link

Or at least a little longer than is currently considered current.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 20:44 (fourteen years ago) link

Now I really wish I could remember what book that was! It made a big deal about things looking "rich" whether they were expensive or not -- basically the "quality and enduring style over seasonally 'in' things" argument. Also used the designation "Quality", eventually shortened to "Q" and "non-Q", to describe hypothetical items.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 20:50 (fourteen years ago) link

Laurel, you are Q.

sarahel, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 20:53 (fourteen years ago) link

Hahaha that's nice, thank u. Suzy and daria and a few others are really the hi-style fashion mavens, I am actually v v conservative in dress.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 20:57 (fourteen years ago) link

all the girls on this thread are Q, imo.

sarahel, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 20:57 (fourteen years ago) link

That book will be responsible for moms of a particular era wearing their best gold with black angora but never, ever black satin. I totally had a quality meme drilled into me because one grandmother was a trained fashion designer (but actually a fashion buyer) who despised synthetic fabrics and would moan at my mother if we appeared in lame prints, character/word t-shirts, or if the seams on the fabric did not cohere. Before I figured out there was this thing, fashion, I wore preppy everything or dressed up in approximations of b/w film actress looks.

If tweed, a brogue pattern of any kind is yr friend, whether shoe or boot. I used to do the mid-calf laced-up brogue, cableknit tights, tweed skirt thing.

sacher torte reform (suzy), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 20:59 (fourteen years ago) link

never, ever black satin.

I think it might have allowed black satin if your personal style/lifestyle fell into "Miami Beach Formal". Other options included "East Coast Old Guard" and...damn. I am seriously wracking my brains to remember more about this genius book.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 21:02 (fourteen years ago) link

I FOUND IT!!!! It is Dressing Rich: A Guide to Classic Chic for Women with More Taste than Money.

I present to you http://blog.shopittome.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/dressing-rich.jpg

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 21:05 (fourteen years ago) link

The fashion sketches alone are worth buying a used copy on amazon.com -- I want this book.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 21:07 (fourteen years ago) link

LOL 1988* RUN AWAY FROM THE MAUVE.

*This is a guess because carbon-14 shoulder pad dating difficult at the angle of Cheryl Tiegs clone pose.

sacher torte reform (suzy), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 21:10 (fourteen years ago) link

1988? It looks earlier to me - mid-80s maybe.

sarahel, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 21:10 (fourteen years ago) link

1982! Oh yeah, it's a doozy. On other other hand, it namechecks people like Dame Edith Sitwell, which is how I first learned of her existence, and she was a byword in my mind for a certain kind of grandiose, turbaned fashion for oh, well, STILL.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 21:15 (fourteen years ago) link

I learned of Dame Edith Sitwell from a Morrissey t-shirt, I think.

sarahel, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 21:17 (fourteen years ago) link

Not to mention things like sketches of shoes with worn-down heels and hems that hang askew, with the instructions to get thee to a cobbler or dry cleaner ASAP to fix them, because SLOPPINESS IS NEVER Q.

xp hahaha oh yes I didn't have a Morissey kind of childhood.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 21:17 (fourteen years ago) link

I think we need to point out when threads are "Non-Q"

sarahel, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 21:18 (fourteen years ago) link

There is actually an artist's sketch of THIS photograph in the section about fashion exceptions, and how some people simply make something their life's look but that it's best to do that when you know the rules already.

http://images.artnet.com/artwork_images_424158012_438719_sanford-roth.jpg

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 21:20 (fourteen years ago) link

I'm sorry, I must be boring the shit out of everyone, but I am tbh really really excited to re-find this book. Every page will probably unlock some childhood memory of mine, of sitting around reading it and practicing thinking about being a grown-up lady.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 21:21 (fourteen years ago) link

no that book sounds awesome!

sarahel, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 21:22 (fourteen years ago) link

I mean I was SIX when this book came out and I re-read it extensively. My childhood idea of being a woman was having clothes like the ones in this book, wearing Chanel No 5, and owning shoes that made noise on the wood floors.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 21:23 (fourteen years ago) link

Book sounds awesome and hilarious and you should not apologise.

I think I first heard of Edith Sitwell during high school, when I wanted to know what the Bloomsbury Set did.

sacher torte reform (suzy), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 21:28 (fourteen years ago) link

That book is totally awesome. Morbidly curious about Does This Make Me Look Fat, too.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 21:30 (fourteen years ago) link

Morbidly curious about Does This Make Me Look Fat, too.

Me too!

sarahel, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 21:30 (fourteen years ago) link

Although I think a more constructive question to ask oneself is, "Does this fit well?"

she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 21:38 (fourteen years ago) link

I desperately want you to get this book and devote a thread to it, L.!

quincie, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 21:50 (fourteen years ago) link

I'm going to do it, and then there's going to be a PERSONAL STYLE POLL from the allowable "types", complete w illustrations.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 21:52 (fourteen years ago) link

Awesome!

sarahel, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 21:53 (fourteen years ago) link

I can't wait!

quincie, Tuesday, 5 January 2010 21:54 (fourteen years ago) link

my fashion icons: fraulein maria, laverne, shirley, little lord fauntleroy.

can't wait for this poll.

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Tuesday, 5 January 2010 23:27 (fourteen years ago) link

owning shoes that made noise on the wood floors.

THIS!!!!!!

tehresa, Wednesday, 6 January 2010 00:36 (fourteen years ago) link

tehresa i just friended you on facebook because you're the only girls-only person aside from laurel whose name i know
i'm not a giant weirdo i promise (well i am, but i won't embarrass you)

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Wednesday, 6 January 2010 00:42 (fourteen years ago) link

haha ok

tehresa, Wednesday, 6 January 2010 00:43 (fourteen years ago) link

i am excited about this book! will have to look for some old style guides at thrifts. in middle school, my mom subscribed me to seventeen magazine because every girl got it (i wasn't cool enough to know about sassy) and i remember being totally confused as to how they put outfits together and where they bought nice clothes, since you couldn't buy anything cool at the crappy mall in my hometown, it didn't even have the gap. took until high school to discover all the best stuff was at goodwill.

boots: old and beat-up steel toed docs from high school that i refuse to part with but never wear, vintage stephane kelian combat boots from the 80s, apc black that i don't wear enough (never been keen on wearing the boots-over-jeans look), simple black charles david ankle boots with about a 4" heel, ld tuttle dark grey ankle boots, chie mihara dark indigo lace-up (mid calf), brown mid-calf apc, and my ll bean duck boots.

i would prob buy more (don't need to, but i would) if i didn't wear size 11 which most of the time cool labels either don't make or sell out v fast before it goes on sale! suzy do you mean the giant clunky black balenciaga ankle boots, the ones from that collection with all the egg-shaped coats (i think it was fall 06?)

kicker conspiracy (s. suisham ha ha) (daria-g), Wednesday, 6 January 2010 01:43 (fourteen years ago) link

i'm wondering if i'd be better off if i didn't care about clothes and shoes tbh. but it is so much fun! i think my biggest influence for good and bad is the cool girls at catholic school, they wore plaid with argyle, baggy tops and cardigans, moccasins, bomber jackets, clashing colors, and stuff borrowed from older brothers or from the men's department.

i wish someone would just scan this whole thing and post to the interwebs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_Preppy_Handbook

kicker conspiracy (s. suisham ha ha) (daria-g), Wednesday, 6 January 2010 02:11 (fourteen years ago) link

OK I ordered a copy of DRESSING RICH yesterday for less than $10 incl shipping. I'm torn -- I can't decide whether we'll be rolling in the aisles, or whether it will mostly be surprisingly sensible advice (with a few mauve exceptions). WAIT AND SEE

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Wednesday, 6 January 2010 15:20 (fourteen years ago) link

i hope it's better than this thing was
http://www.conair-store.com/imagesEdp/p19795b.jpg

surprise i am not glamourous in different artificial seasonal lighting

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Wednesday, 6 January 2010 15:34 (fourteen years ago) link

Well, I was planning on rescuing my copy of TOPH from MN but did not travel this Xmas, boo. Honestly, I don't know why someone in publishing doesn't reissue so L, you should get on that.

keyser (suzy), Wednesday, 6 January 2010 15:43 (fourteen years ago) link

Sure, I'll have them re-issue it in a special children's edition.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Wednesday, 6 January 2010 15:44 (fourteen years ago) link

Do any of you know what a "convertible foot" is in relation to tights?

Also, I used to have one of those make up mirrors, and I kind of wish I still did, mostly for the magnification for eyebrow plucking.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Wednesday, 6 January 2010 16:46 (fourteen years ago) link

Yeah, Jenny, although I'm only aware of them as a dancer's thing? They're tights with a lengthwise slit cut into the foot and bound off (so it doesn't rip or run any more) so that you can pull them down over your feet or roll them up around your ankles.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Wednesday, 6 January 2010 16:51 (fourteen years ago) link

Thanks, Laurel!

I'm tights shopping, as I had to retire two totally sprung pair this morning and despite doubling up again today, I nearly died out there walking from the dentist to work. I read pretty good things about Dankso tights as far as them being thick and opaque and indestructible, but I wasn't sure what a "convertible foot" was. I think I will go for the regular ones - I definitely do not need a hole in the foot of my tights.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Wednesday, 6 January 2010 16:54 (fourteen years ago) link

I mean I hate leggings so much, why would I pay MORE for tights that can turn into them? Yeah.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Wednesday, 6 January 2010 16:54 (fourteen years ago) link

fact: i am going crazy trying not to look at duo boot sale

tell me they eat puppies for their midmorning snack
tell me that they will make my feet turn into tiny warthogs instead of feet
make me not spend tons of money on these boots!

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Thursday, 7 January 2010 15:09 (fourteen years ago) link

i just bought two perfectly decent new pairs of boots to replace old ones that had become decrepit. i am not in the market for fashionable boots.

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Thursday, 7 January 2010 15:10 (fourteen years ago) link

yet

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Thursday, 7 January 2010 15:10 (fourteen years ago) link

ok i'm over it.

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Thursday, 7 January 2010 15:22 (fourteen years ago) link

Amanda, I took my Duo boots to the shoe place to have them polished and waterproofed and the guy there said that they were very nice boots and that I got an incredible deal. I'm saying that if you get a pair, you should not feel guilty because they are totally Q.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Thursday, 7 January 2010 15:50 (fourteen years ago) link

i know but i have SO MANY BOOTS and am somehow incapable of getting rid of any of them. i just realized that i have this problem called my "clothing archive" which is really just a bunch of shit i don't wear anymore. but i'm keeping it to remind myself of something. what? i'm not sure. what i used to think was appropriate? what i used to like to wear? because it took me a long time to find it and therefore i can't give it away? because it reminds me of that conversation i had or that place i went? i dunno. i should not buy these boots right now. i have stopped looking at the website.

i think i'm over it.

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Thursday, 7 January 2010 15:56 (fourteen years ago) link

AHAHAHAHAH oh dear. I do love you both.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Thursday, 7 January 2010 16:04 (fourteen years ago) link

Amanda, if you want to reduce your clothing archive, maybe you should take pictures of the items in the archive, note what it is about that item that you want to remember and keep a record either in electronic or actual format. Then you can give the item itself away. I mean, only if you care. If not, I apologize for offering a solution when you are not actually looking for one.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Thursday, 7 January 2010 16:07 (fourteen years ago) link

A pretty little blog post that I found while googling something else the other day.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Thursday, 7 January 2010 16:14 (fourteen years ago) link

no i AM looking for one. that is a good idea. i need to say goodbye to some stuff and i just can't find a way to do it without, i dunno, a ritual burning or something.

just in case is most of my closet. ok, closets.

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Thursday, 7 January 2010 16:15 (fourteen years ago) link

photos and a ritual burning sound good, actually.

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Thursday, 7 January 2010 16:16 (fourteen years ago) link

Okay, good. I'm super sensitive to the "offering solutions when none were requested" thing because my coworker keeps doing it to me, such as the other day when she suggested I take some classes on how to be more self sufficient because I joked that when Jeff went out of town, I get kind of feral and eat over the sink and sleep on my clothes.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Thursday, 7 January 2010 16:20 (fourteen years ago) link

I sort of want to tell her that last night for dinner I had a cold piece of leftover frozen pizza and a bowl of cornflakes but then she'll start sending me easy recipes that I can freeze and eat later or something.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Thursday, 7 January 2010 16:21 (fourteen years ago) link

Amanda, make some room in your closet because I still have that thing to send you! When I remember. Maybe I will look for more than one thing, just to make the package worthwhile. You won't need the jacket until spring anyway, more's the pity....

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Thursday, 7 January 2010 16:26 (fourteen years ago) link

ok. i can get rid of some things, i'm sure. like the high heeled tap shoes (sob), or the tall brown lace-up mother goose boots that are too small and will always be too small (sobsobsob)

seriously though, there must be a second layer i can peel. like the polyester green-white-pink maxi tank dress that belonged to someone who lived in my old neighborhood's hawaiian mother while she was pregnant with her.

see? it's hard.

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Thursday, 7 January 2010 16:30 (fourteen years ago) link

Anything that doesn't fit must go. Anything that is ripped, stained, and unrepairable must go. Unrepairable means that you have been saying to yourself for more than one year that you are going to repair or have repaired a certain garment, but have never actually done so.

If you have attachment to some things such that you love them and want someone else to love, put them up on Ebay or Etsy to find them good homes with loving owners.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Thursday, 7 January 2010 16:33 (fourteen years ago) link

i also wore that hilarious dress to my old boss's over the top wedding at the modern art museum and got super drunk with my other coworker and then took the bus home and we talked about weed. memories!

i think i can't get rid of these things because they jog my otherwise very clogged memory. it's not as easy as ebay because i don't want anyone else to have these things. they're too full of me.

maybe i have a problem :-/

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Thursday, 7 January 2010 16:35 (fourteen years ago) link

a picture would help.

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Thursday, 7 January 2010 16:35 (fourteen years ago) link

I mean unless they're making your life an episode of "Hoarders", it isn't bad to keep things that mean something to you. If you KNOW that that's what they are, you don't have to follow that cookie-cutter self-improvement advice about how to clean out your closet. (It IS good advice IF that's what you want to achieve, but...).

I keep a lot of things for various reasons.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Thursday, 7 January 2010 16:37 (fourteen years ago) link

A picture, and then you record that story, too. You can even make a book out of them through the magic of iPhoto or other on-line services.

Amanda, when you are ready to do this, I will be there for you. I'm very pragmatic when it comes to reducing clutter, plus I like listening to your stories.

xp - of course, Laurel is also correct.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Thursday, 7 January 2010 16:38 (fourteen years ago) link

I expect Amanda has her reasons for wanting to be able to shut the closet door and feel good about it, I am not unsympathetic. But I also happen to be against the clinical disposal of memory objects, even though NYC apartments have basically no storage and I had to jam my winter coat into the closet this morning. (NYC apartments also do not have coat closets separate from the bedroom ones, and winter coats take up a crapload of room.)

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Thursday, 7 January 2010 16:42 (fourteen years ago) link

oh, they do! and i couldn't possibly get rid of the 1930s blue wool ankle length coat i got at this estate sale of an old woman who lived in my neighborhood until she died and her family sold off everything in her house.

my main concession in the last few years is not to accumulate any more of this stuff. i'm not a hoarder, but i have a real shitload of memory objects.

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Thursday, 7 January 2010 16:44 (fourteen years ago) link

i realize that's basically every estate sale ever, but it just felt very fresh and weird to be walking around her house, picking up things where she last left them.

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Thursday, 7 January 2010 16:45 (fourteen years ago) link

i always hated getting rid of meaningful things, but moving a lot helped me with that. however, i still have at least 1 suitcase worth of things i haven't worn in years and couldn't bear to get rid of.

here is a case for keeping: before i moved, i was a little ruthless in getting rid of things, and gave away my black wool peacoat that felt a little too snug for comfort. now it would fit perfectly and my other coats are big and i'm stuck having to spend $ on a new one and also going through the agonizing process of finding the perfect replacement.

another story: i could never bring myself to get rid of that bcbg kimonoish black top, even though i had only worn it like twice 5 years ago, because it made me feel so fat and insecure, but this year i wore that shit for christmas dinner. so. keep the ones you love.

s1ocki seconds (tehresa), Thursday, 7 January 2010 17:55 (fourteen years ago) link

guys i didn't read the whole thread; what's "Q"?

horseshoe, Thursday, 7 January 2010 18:12 (fourteen years ago) link

quality.

s1ocki seconds (tehresa), Thursday, 7 January 2010 18:12 (fourteen years ago) link

ty!

horseshoe, Thursday, 7 January 2010 18:15 (fourteen years ago) link

Things I can't throw out are mostly vintage things passed down from grandmothers/mom/aunt, anything made by a decent designer, shoes passim. Part of the 'keep' impulse comes from being badly burned a few times after getting rid of something and having the item or similar 'revived'. Luckily there is no moth problem where I live now - clothes stocks were decimated a few years ago because ex-BF brought the moths' eggs back from camping trips, just to eat my cashmere.

keyser (suzy), Thursday, 7 January 2010 18:18 (fourteen years ago) link

if you want it to be, q is short for qute

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Thursday, 7 January 2010 18:36 (fourteen years ago) link

that is how i had been reading it!

horseshoe, Thursday, 7 January 2010 18:49 (fourteen years ago) link

ok i made a pile of stuff i totally don't care about and can't remember why i was keeping it, including:
* a size 10 skirt with the tags still on it that a student gave to me
* a few heavily discounted/shrunken sweaters
* ruffled chiquitita shirt i picked up god knows where that had a hole in it
* scratchy polyester robe i bought in chinatown in 1997 and wore like 1x b/c it was so uncomfortable

clearly THIS is stuff i can get rid of. i know that.

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Thursday, 7 January 2010 20:03 (fourteen years ago) link

lol ruffle skirts!

s1ocki seconds (tehresa), Thursday, 7 January 2010 22:08 (fourteen years ago) link

FYI I will not be posting the color of my bra on Facebook to race awareness of breast cancer. kthx

she is writing about love (Jenny), Friday, 8 January 2010 02:29 (fourteen years ago) link

wow, this is really a thing. i'm not going to do that either.

kicker conspiracy (s. suisham ha ha) (daria-g), Friday, 8 January 2010 03:04 (fourteen years ago) link

fyi gr8080's is cheetah print.

s1ocki seconds (tehresa), Friday, 8 January 2010 03:05 (fourteen years ago) link

hi everybody! i have just discovered this thread. my bra is light green but facebook doesn't need to know.

Maria, Friday, 8 January 2010 03:12 (fourteen years ago) link

Eh whatever - I did it because why the hell not?

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Friday, 8 January 2010 03:15 (fourteen years ago) link

I'm going to post my preferred brand of tampon to increase awareness about gang violence.

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Friday, 8 January 2010 03:16 (fourteen years ago) link

OB

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Friday, 8 January 2010 03:18 (fourteen years ago) link

I didn't know about the breast cancer thing just thought it was a random meme. Oh well, whatever.

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Friday, 8 January 2010 03:19 (fourteen years ago) link

haha that's even better actually

OB here as well. one of my friends used to get heavily discounted stuff from a pharmaceutical company he worked for and ordered them in bulk for the women in his family, i'm kinda jealous.

Maria, Friday, 8 January 2010 03:20 (fourteen years ago) link

lol Amanda

I like it as a random meme a lot more than I like it as a breast cancer awareness raiser.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Friday, 8 January 2010 03:21 (fourteen years ago) link

diva cup for me, thanks

s1ocki seconds (tehresa), Friday, 8 January 2010 03:22 (fourteen years ago) link

Dare I admit...

Diva Cup/reusable cloth pads

Now you know.

xp YAY!

she is writing about love (Jenny), Friday, 8 January 2010 03:23 (fourteen years ago) link

x-posts Yeah, me too - that's what I meant. Probably wouldn't have done it if I had known what it was for.

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Friday, 8 January 2010 03:23 (fourteen years ago) link

Me too! The email I got suggested that we "let the boys figure it out". Barf. Breast cancer bras boobies boys.

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Friday, 8 January 2010 03:23 (fourteen years ago) link

I can't use a diva cup because I have an IUD. Tampax here or sometimes OB. I like both. Cloth pads here too but only for sleeping.

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Friday, 8 January 2010 03:24 (fourteen years ago) link

I used a Diva Cup when I had an IUD. No probs. Why aren't you supposed to?

she is writing about love (Jenny), Friday, 8 January 2010 03:25 (fourteen years ago) link

Wait me= too slow.

I had a bad experience with the product known as "instead" so I'm OB original...bampon. I did not post about my bra to boost breast cancer awareness on fb.

Jenny you had your iud removed? You didn't tell me!

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Friday, 8 January 2010 03:27 (fourteen years ago) link

Not that you should have but I remember taking the bus with you on the way there. <3

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Friday, 8 January 2010 03:28 (fourteen years ago) link

They don't recommend using Diva Cups with IUDs because there is a risk of catching the string and pulling out the IUD when you remove the cup. Some people do use them together but doing so is generally not recommended. The idea of yanking out my IUD is so awful that I just don't want to risk it.

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Friday, 8 January 2010 03:30 (fourteen years ago) link

I got it taken out awhile ago. It was the Mirena kind with the hormones, so I after about six months, I stopped getting a period, which in and of itself is not terrible, but I also got a full-on hardcore compliment of PMS symptoms. So I'd be minding my own business, when WHAMMO with no warning, crying like a crazy woman, my face would break out, I'd be suuuuuuuuuper bitchy (more so than usual), my boobs would hurt and then... it would stop. No period at the end of that sentence. It made me a little crazy.

Erin, had I read that same warning, I would have heeded it. Thinking about accidentally yanking out the IUD was awful for me to contemplate, too. But as noted, I barely got a period so it was kind of a moot point after awhile.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Friday, 8 January 2010 03:33 (fourteen years ago) link

Huh that really sucks that the Mirena had that effect on you esp since it's a local and not systemic hormone delivery system. It's not supposed to cause the dramatic side effects that oral or injected contraceptives can cause in some women. :/

I have the copper IUD so still get periods and while I'd love to try a Diva or something similar, I'm going to err on the side of caution. Btw, it's Erica. :D

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Friday, 8 January 2010 03:37 (fourteen years ago) link

Out of curiosity - how painful was the removal? Sorta dreading the day I decide or have to get mine taken out. I know it's be quick but my insertion was pretty bad so I'm sorta nervous.

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Friday, 8 January 2010 03:39 (fourteen years ago) link

^ "it's" should be it'll

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Friday, 8 January 2010 03:42 (fourteen years ago) link

I'm so sorry! I have been calling you "Erin" in my head for like at least a year now. Erica. Erica Erica. Got it.

I don't know that the IUD caused the PMS (I get PMSy to some extent no matter what), it just dried up my period so there was no notable endpoint to the PMS. That sounds weird, like a non-problem, but it really got to me. Like it was all anticipation with no denouement. I wanted the copper IUD but my period is super heavy on it's own and the gyn thought it would be a bad move.

The removal was a PIECE OF CAKE. I've had pap smears that were more uncomfortable. The insertion was awful awful awful, so I feel you about the nervousness. I was nervous, too, and pleasantly surprised.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Friday, 8 January 2010 03:43 (fourteen years ago) link

contraception is just an awful thing to deal with. it is weird but kind of funny to be married and still using condoms... but the pill just doesn't sit well with me, and being in a new country i'm not super psyched to have some strange doctor shove something up my uterus (plus we did too much research and i kinda scared myself out of getting one, ever), so we felt like the best option was good ol' fashioned condoms. my husband is incredibly great about it, was the first to suggest it, but i do feel bad that it's not really the 'best' option for him. when will the day come that contraception is painless and side-effect free.

DAN P3RRY MAD AT GRANDMA (just1n3), Friday, 8 January 2010 03:45 (fourteen years ago) link

we can dream...

i hate the pill, too!

s1ocki seconds (tehresa), Friday, 8 January 2010 03:48 (fourteen years ago) link

Gotta heartily recommend:

http://media.empr.com/images/2009/05/12/todaysponge_box_53131_53132.jpg

she is writing about love (Jenny), Friday, 8 January 2010 03:48 (fourteen years ago) link

I was gonna get one to see if it would make my migraines go away, but my doc said it wasn't worth it. The thing was also going to cost me like a squillion dollars so forgetit.

AMEN to painless side effect free contraception.

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Friday, 8 January 2010 03:49 (fourteen years ago) link

i did not realize they still sold sponges!

s1ocki seconds (tehresa), Friday, 8 January 2010 03:50 (fourteen years ago) link

They took them off the market for a while but reintroduced them a couple years ago.

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Friday, 8 January 2010 03:51 (fourteen years ago) link

Sponges, that is.

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Friday, 8 January 2010 03:52 (fourteen years ago) link

http://www.feministing.com/archives/015702.html

They are not perfect, but as someone in an exclusive relationship for whom an unplanned pregnancy would not be the end of the world, I'm a big fan.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Friday, 8 January 2010 03:55 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah i was gonna say this is not a very safe option for me and i don't understand how someone like elaine benes could be all about em!

s1ocki seconds (tehresa), Friday, 8 January 2010 03:58 (fourteen years ago) link

Plus we did too much research and i kinda scared myself out of getting one, ever.

Justine, there is A LOT of incorrect or misleading information out there regarding IUDs. There were a lot of problems with the ones in the 1970s but today's models are extremely safe and aside from sterilization, they're one of the most effective forms of contraception. I am 100% happy with mine and am really pro IUD in general. I love the fact that it's non-hormonal and that I never have to think about it. Also, it's extremely cost effective. There is a slightly higher risk of expulsion in women who have never been pregnant but it's a small increase in risk. Insertion is painful but you can get an anesthetic and take ibuprofen to lessen the pain and it's brief. I can't recommend the IUD highly enough tbh. It sounds like you're happy with condoms but I had to give it a plug because I get really pissed off that they get such a bad rep unnecessarily.

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Friday, 8 January 2010 03:58 (fourteen years ago) link

Btw, I have a Paragard: http://www.paragard.com/paragard/index.php

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Friday, 8 January 2010 04:00 (fourteen years ago) link

my major concern with getting one is that i've kinda got wacky periods - really irregular, sometimes super heavy and painful - and i read that copper ones can make it worse... or make it better... and i just don't want to go through the hassle of figuring it out. plus yeah, super expensive here, i bet, and i don't have great health insurance coverage.

DAN P3RRY MAD AT GRANDMA (just1n3), Friday, 8 January 2010 04:02 (fourteen years ago) link

i would like to more about this sponge thing.

DAN P3RRY MAD AT GRANDMA (just1n3), Friday, 8 January 2010 04:04 (fourteen years ago) link

i don't understand how someone like elaine benes could be all about em!

You know, I was actually thinking about that on the way home from work today! It was pretty irresponsible of her.

Also, I had my IUD for two years, I think, and I am also pro-IUD even though it turned out not to be right for me, if that makes any sense. It's a really good option. My least favorite bit of IUD misinfo is that you can't get one of you haven't had a child. I know women whose gynecologists told them that!!!

http://www.todaysponge.com/about.html

Justine, where do you live? In the US, they are located in the condom aisle. A box of three is $15 in Chicago, so probably a lot cheaper elsewhere.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Friday, 8 January 2010 04:07 (fourteen years ago) link

...condom aisle of the drug store, I should say. And it's not really a whole aisle, just sort of a little section at the end of an aisle.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Friday, 8 January 2010 04:09 (fourteen years ago) link

the thing i like best about condoms is the ~material-ness~ of it, as a contraceptive. like, when i was on the pill i would look at the little bugger before popping it in my mouth and think to myself 'how the shit is this gonna stop babies???'. and i always lived in fear that i would be one of the 2% or whatever that ended up pregnant. but with a condom at least you know if it worked or not (had to make an early a.m. pharmacy visit early last year, but just that one time).

would like to take this opportunity to give props to my husband, ytth, for doing most of the research when i was considering an IUD (i've had exes who wouldn't even pick up tampons on their way home because EWWWW)

DAN P3RRY MAD AT GRANDMA (just1n3), Friday, 8 January 2010 04:10 (fourteen years ago) link

think i'm gonna have to find some stats of the efficacy of this sponge first - an unplanned pregnancy WOULD be pretty much a complete disaster for us right now

DAN P3RRY MAD AT GRANDMA (just1n3), Friday, 8 January 2010 04:10 (fourteen years ago) link

Copper IUDs can cause an increase in cramps and bleeding for the first six months (I won't lie - I experienced this) but it wasn't anything that some extra strength OTC pain meds couldn't tackle. After six months the body usually adjusts and it sort of evens out/returns to normal. For me the potential benefits outweighed that risk but I can totally understand being nervous about that given your history. I was willing to chance it and it worked out in the end. Cost - even if you pay full price (which I believe is about $200) an IUD is the most cost effective method of BC provided you intend to use it for two years or more. Also, if your insurance doesn't cover it, Paragard let's you set up a payment plan pay it off over 12 months. OK, /IUD commercial. I promise they're not paying me ;).

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Friday, 8 January 2010 04:10 (fourteen years ago) link

How effective is the contraceptive sponge against pregnancy?
The contraceptive sponge may be less effective against pregnancy for women that have already had a baby. The contraceptive sponge is 87% effective with typical use. This means that if 100 women use the contraceptive sponge, 13 women will become pregnant in a year with typical use.

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Friday, 8 January 2010 04:11 (fourteen years ago) link

http://www.todaysponge.com/images/pdf/sponge-pregnancy-chart.pdf

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Friday, 8 January 2010 04:13 (fourteen years ago) link

so that's around as effective as condoms right? i always wonder about that "in a year with typical use" standard for bc, how much sex does that actually involve? as in what is the per-act probability of pregnancy? i am v. much a numbers person and it drives me crazy that i can't break it down, even though i know that statistics are not predictive.

Maria, Friday, 8 January 2010 04:14 (fourteen years ago) link

btw can i just say that i hate nonoxynol 9

s1ocki seconds (tehresa), Friday, 8 January 2010 04:15 (fourteen years ago) link

Summary of Clinical Efficacy Study:

Today Sponge is 89-91% effective, what does it mean?
• Over 1,850 women used the Today Sponge over a 1 year period
• Over 230,000 acts of intercourse produced 179 pregnancies
• Translation: One Pregnancy for Every 1287 Acts
..of Intercourse*

Pregnancy Rates for Birth Control Methods
(For One Year of Use)

In clinical studies with Today® Sponge, the pregnancy rates per 100 women during the first year of use were:

= About 1 out of 10 women (9-11%) became pregnant when using this correctly all the time.

= The possibility of getting pregnant increased to about 1 out of 7 women (13-16%) when this product was not used correctly.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Friday, 8 January 2010 04:15 (fourteen years ago) link

^ posted for the extra numbers for Maria.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Friday, 8 January 2010 04:16 (fourteen years ago) link

I believe that condoms are a little more effective overall if I'm reading these stats correctly.

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Friday, 8 January 2010 04:17 (fourteen years ago) link

it seems like it might be easier to use condoms 'effectively' than a sponge which requires specific placement or something?

s1ocki seconds (tehresa), Friday, 8 January 2010 04:17 (fourteen years ago) link

xpost holy shit i memorized the numbers from high school health class and i thought the pregnancy rates were much lower for most of those methods.

xpost again - than you jenny! that maes me feel better, as someone prone to pregnancy paranoia

Maria, Friday, 8 January 2010 04:18 (fourteen years ago) link

You can at least see where condoms are going. You have to insert the sponge and position it so it is like a little cup over your cervix, which can seem tricky at first, but you can feel when it's in the right place pretty easily.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Friday, 8 January 2010 04:21 (fourteen years ago) link

But yeah, with a condom you can visually verify that all is well, which you can't do with the sponge, unless you have a special attachment for your Conair three-panel make-up mirror.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Friday, 8 January 2010 04:22 (fourteen years ago) link

lolol

s1ocki seconds (tehresa), Friday, 8 January 2010 04:23 (fourteen years ago) link

looool that reminds me of the time my doctor insisted that i 'feel' my cervix (right there and then) and get to 'know' it.

DAN P3RRY MAD AT GRANDMA (just1n3), Friday, 8 January 2010 04:34 (fourteen years ago) link

Sadly I've had to beg off all hormonal contraceptives at least for now. I smoke, so regular pills arent a wise idea... and I've tried both Implanon and Depo Provera and both sent me into nasty depressive episodes. Condoms for me, oh well.

millivanillimillenary (Trayce), Friday, 8 January 2010 05:17 (fourteen years ago) link

Aaaah I have tried so many different kinds of pill hoping to find one with no side effects but no luck so far. I had just found one which only gave me migraines on the week off and was like "well fine then, I will just not have any weeks off (even though my GP says not to do that)" but then some other side effects appeared and made it clear that my hormonal levels were wrong so I got put on yet another kind instead.

Anyway you didn't need to know that but I got all excited by seeing that I was not alone because I had kind of been thinking "this cannot be normal, why does universe hate me" etc about it all, esp. given that I am partly on the pill because NOT being on the pill = bend-over-double acetominophen-resistant ovary pain for 3 days a month

sorry for tmi but excited that I am not quite as weird as I'd thought! though this does mean that if the universe does not hate me especially then the universe hates women even more than was already apparent so that is less pleasing news.

⍨ (a passing spacecadet), Friday, 8 January 2010 11:37 (fourteen years ago) link

No contraceptives just generally suck. :(

millivanillimillenary (Trayce), Friday, 8 January 2010 12:01 (fourteen years ago) link

we should post mysterious fruits in our facebook statuses to illustrate how much contraceptives suck and raise awareness about their chronic suckage

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Friday, 8 January 2010 13:06 (fourteen years ago) link

can i ask what brand(s) of pill u all were on that was so bad and hated? i loved it, i had like the opposite of side effects. i need to go to doctor to get a new script though so not currently

jortin shartgent (harbl), Friday, 8 January 2010 13:10 (fourteen years ago) link

I'm ok with the nuva ring fwiw.

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Friday, 8 January 2010 14:22 (fourteen years ago) link

i am off the pill now but had no problematic side effects while i as on it (was using a generic called trinessa). i don't particularly want to start using it again because i kind of like this whole learning my body's cyclical patterns thing but i might at some point if it seems like the best option.

Maria, Friday, 8 January 2010 14:31 (fourteen years ago) link

My least favorite bit of IUD misinfo is that you can't get one of you haven't had a child.

I asked for one years ago and was told that no doctor in that practice would do the insertion on a woman who'd never been pregnant. Stick that in you--no, just don't.

They've changed their policy now and I may be asking again soon. I'm sad that the different designs of IUD approved in Europe haven't been approved for use here -- the insertion is supposed to be a lot easier on other models.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Friday, 8 January 2010 14:54 (fourteen years ago) link

My primary care physician said something similar when I first approached him about it. Ugh. If someone tells you that next time you ask then go see someone else. It's blatantly not true. As I said before, there is a slightly higher risk of expulsion in women who have never been pregnant (not to be confused with women who've never given birth) which it's good to be aware of but that does not mean that nuliparous women should not use IUDs.

Also PRO TIP, the rate of expulsion is related to the experience of the provider doing the insertion so that IUDs inserted by practitioners who have loads of experience doing the procedure are much less likely to be expelled. Make sure that the person inserting yours is comfortable doing so and has a lot of experience.

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Friday, 8 January 2010 16:15 (fourteen years ago) link

that is an excellent and useful protip!

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Friday, 8 January 2010 16:26 (fourteen years ago) link

nuliparous is a great new word! i would like to remain nuliparous for a good long time. there, i used it in a sentence.

Maria, Friday, 8 January 2010 16:36 (fourteen years ago) link

I realize I'm coming off very captain save an IUD here but I really do believe that they can be an excellent choice for many women. I wound up interning at a FP clinic with the NP who inserted mine and saw many women who were extremely happy with theirs for a number of reasons.

Also for certain populations (ie. the one I'm working with right now) they can be esp great. A lot of the girls I work with now aren't able to take BCPs as directed and are nervous about Depo because if the horror stories they hear from friends. Some of their partners don't want them on contraception at all but with an IUD they don't even have to know. I'm particularly sensitive to this issue right now because one of my girls who I've been trying to get fitted with an IUD or on Implanon since the day I started is now 7 weeks pregnant and in no way shape or form is this girl ready to be a mom. Also, one of my co-workers is sitting in P Parenth0od right now with a couple who are both under 24 and already have 4 kids between them. :/ Because of situations like these I've sort of made it my personal mission to ensure that all of the girls on my caseload are on a BC method that I think they can really follow and use consistently. All of them, btw, are either currently pregnant or already have at least 1 kid. I know the above doesn't really pertain to this discussion but I guess I needed to vent.

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Friday, 8 January 2010 16:51 (fourteen years ago) link

Erica, what is your job? Because it sounds awesome.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Friday, 8 January 2010 16:53 (fourteen years ago) link

I am not being sarcastic - it sounds like you are doing something really great and worthwhile and stressful but necessary and awesome.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Friday, 8 January 2010 16:54 (fourteen years ago) link

Awww, thanks Jenny. I work at a youth/community center on a team that deals with extremely disconnected and at-risk young ppl between the ages of 16-24 who are all either gang, court or street involved and often all three. Right now I have a caseload of 16 kids. The ultimate goal of the program is to get them into educational or pre-vocational programming and hopefully out of extreme poverty and violence. I've only been there two months but I absolutely love it so far but still have so much to learn. I won't lie - it can be really frustrating and heartbreaking but also really rewarding and fun in a lot of ways.

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Friday, 8 January 2010 17:02 (fourteen years ago) link

<3<3<3

That's good stuff.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Friday, 8 January 2010 17:03 (fourteen years ago) link

oh man I WISH I had thought of the IUD for a co-worker/friend who is my age (27). She's a single mom who started seeing a guy (37) who insisted she go off the pill for some douchebag reason, and she went with it, she got pregnant, he was there when she found out so he knew right from the start. Next day she found out he'd been cheating on her for entirety of their 6 month relationship. She doesn't want it, wants to try to give it to him when it's born and concentrate on raising her own daughter. She scheduled two abortions and chickened out each time - this fucking asshole has told her he'll "cut her into little pieces" if she gets rid of the baby, but also wants her to keep it, raise it, etc so he can pop in and out of its life and feel like a Dad without much of the effort. the whole situation makes me sick and an IUD would have been the PERFECT solution when he insisted on not using condoms/letting her continue to take the pill. Ugh.
/rant, sorry about that

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Friday, 8 January 2010 17:06 (fourteen years ago) link

^^^ I hear this sort of thing a lot. Sadly it's not all that uncommon. :/

x-post The fact is that it would be really really easy to dismiss most of these kids as lost causes or something similar and most in their lives have done so. The thing is that most of these kids have experienced extreme trauma in their lives pretty much since birth and I'm talking the kind that would fuck someone up for life esp when coupled with growing up in an environment of drugs, violence and crime. I think keeping that in mind is what keeps my co-workers motivated and unwilling to give up even when things are at their most frustrating.

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Friday, 8 January 2010 17:08 (fourteen years ago) link

we have a program like that which feeds students (if they're interested/willing/ready) into our school. many of them wind up in my developmental writing class. i was sad because this past semester one of my best students stopped coming because she lived like 3 bus transfers away and her mom refused to give her money for the bus pass because she's on disability. i had to fail her. it sucked, but she never called me or anything :(

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Friday, 8 January 2010 17:11 (fourteen years ago) link

she didn't have kids, but many of them are 19 year girls with 2 kids, etc. i am in no position to talk to them about their reproductive health unless they explicitly ask me for help, but it would be nice if someone had told them about IUDs.

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Friday, 8 January 2010 17:12 (fourteen years ago) link

Abusers often exert control over their partner's reproductive options like that. This asshole is abusive, and I am so sorry for your coworker/friend. It's an awful situation. xp

Yeah, IUDs are pretty perfect for these situations.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Friday, 8 January 2010 17:14 (fourteen years ago) link

it sucked, but she never called me or anything :(

Yeah, that happens a lot where they'll just drop off the face of the Earth and stop showing up for months at a time. Part of our whole thing is relentless outreach so that we'll go try to find these kids wherever they might be. I haven't heard from one of my girls for a couple weeks and I'm pretty sure she's using right now so today my supervisor and I are going to go out and try to talk to ppl and find out where she is. It's really frustrating because he phone is turned off so I don't have any other way of contacting her right now.

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Friday, 8 January 2010 17:15 (fourteen years ago) link

not on topic, but

another irredeemable romcom? here you go:

http://blog.onlinemoviesunlimited.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/leap-year-movie-poster.jpg

the premise of this movie makes me physically ill -- it's what 13 year olds watch (who else would watch this?) and it warps their brains and then they have difficulty being happy until they're 30. sweet jesus stop this movie before it starts next time.

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Friday, 8 January 2010 17:45 (fourteen years ago) link

But Amanda! This one is DIFFERENT. The girl is going to propose to THE GUY!!! Wacky!!!

she is writing about love (Jenny), Friday, 8 January 2010 17:54 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah in some loophole day bc she's been waiting so long for him to be prince charming and he isn't. and doesn't her father put her up to it? that movie looks terrible.

tehresa, Friday, 8 January 2010 17:55 (fourteen years ago) link

spacecadet, i had the same issues as you with the pill. it was almost like withdrawal during the off week or something. i'd get crazy headaches and just feel like my body was being fucked with for a week. it was really unsettling. and this was a low dose one, too!

tehresa, Friday, 8 January 2010 17:58 (fourteen years ago) link

fuck i hate this movie so much

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Friday, 8 January 2010 18:05 (fourteen years ago) link

Someone needs to stab that movie in the face.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Friday, 8 January 2010 18:06 (fourteen years ago) link

i just read this about 2 minutes ago: http://jezebel.com/5443630/leap-year-a-movie-only-in-a-strictly-technical-sense. "When The New York Times compares your latest film to "a load of poo," there's a problem."

Maria, Friday, 8 January 2010 18:11 (fourteen years ago) link

The ads for it on USA and Bravo are non-fucking-stop. Enough already, Universal.

tokyo rosemary, Saturday, 9 January 2010 00:28 (fourteen years ago) link

just to go back to the contraception issue: a few years ago i was having a really hard time on the pill - i was so depressed and crying all the time and unhappy, and really wanted to stop taking it... but my bf at the time completely refused to deal with the situation - he didn't outright 'refuse' to use condoms, but he wouldn't buy any, wouldn't be proactive at all, just wouldn't participate in the ~contraception conversation~ at all. like it was all my problem to sort out and take care of.

DAN P3RRY MAD AT GRANDMA (just1n3), Saturday, 9 January 2010 02:27 (fourteen years ago) link

Ugh thats awful J :(

millivanillimillenary (Trayce), Saturday, 9 January 2010 02:42 (fourteen years ago) link

Just wanted to say that while I know that the BCP isn't great for everyone, that much like Harbl I actually had no problems with at all and for some ppl it's still def the best option.

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Saturday, 9 January 2010 02:53 (fourteen years ago) link

erica, what is your take on tubal ligation (hope that's the right term)

DAN P3RRY MAD AT GRANDMA (just1n3), Saturday, 9 January 2010 03:06 (fourteen years ago) link

bad idea imo if you ever might might might want kids!

tehresa, Saturday, 9 January 2010 03:08 (fourteen years ago) link

no, i mean for after you're past 'child-bearing' age. i don't think i still want to be using condoms when i'm 60

DAN P3RRY MAD AT GRANDMA (just1n3), Saturday, 9 January 2010 03:16 (fourteen years ago) link

i worry about the carbon footprint my condom usage is leaving

DAN P3RRY MAD AT GRANDMA (just1n3), Saturday, 9 January 2010 03:17 (fourteen years ago) link

hahahaha well then yeah go for it, then!

tehresa, Saturday, 9 January 2010 03:25 (fourteen years ago) link

my mom did after my little sis was born because um, 'catholic family planning' was not really doing the trick.

tehresa, Saturday, 9 January 2010 03:26 (fourteen years ago) link

My mom did it after me and I'm an only child! Not sure what that means or if I even want to know.

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Saturday, 9 January 2010 03:30 (fourteen years ago) link

If you're past child bearing age, surely you don't need birth control?

tokyo rosemary, Saturday, 9 January 2010 03:49 (fourteen years ago) link

Think she probably meant past the age at which she would like to have kids but where it might still technically be possible.

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Saturday, 9 January 2010 03:50 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah, like after mid-30s

DAN P3RRY MAD AT GRANDMA (just1n3), Saturday, 9 January 2010 04:01 (fourteen years ago) link

sounds ok but invasive if doctors aren't already in there doing something else (like pulling out a baby)? safer, quicker, and easier for yr dude to just get a vasectomy

jortin shartgent (harbl), Saturday, 9 January 2010 13:37 (fourteen years ago) link

Way way way true. It's an out-patient procedure and MUCH safer than the female options, and I know bcp is a lot better than it was 30 yrs ago, say, but messing with hormones that affect a person's whole body and brain over DECADES is still a bigger deal than one stupid little physical change.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Saturday, 9 January 2010 23:14 (fourteen years ago) link

your hand feels like a pillow that's been in the microwave.

tehresa, Monday, 11 January 2010 09:08 (fourteen years ago) link

try to look like you just got drilled. you know the deal.

tehresa, Monday, 11 January 2010 09:09 (fourteen years ago) link

ok has anyone ever read this? is it stupid and self-helpy or is it good?
http://www.phantasmaphile.com/images/2007/04/08/034540987601_sclzzzzzzz_ss500_.jpg

what i want: interesting myths
what i don't want: finding your inner alpha female

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Tuesday, 12 January 2010 15:11 (fourteen years ago) link

Ha, I just said this on the Chicago thread, but I owned it for a long time and never read it. I think it is inner alpha female, like Starhawk type shit.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 12 January 2010 15:57 (fourteen years ago) link

i think my mom tried to buy it for me when it came out, when i was in high school. i think i probably needed it more then than i would now.

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Tuesday, 12 January 2010 16:00 (fourteen years ago) link

I read it in college, Amanda, but a LOT of it made no sense to me then. Recollection is hazy but I suspect Jenny is right about inner blah blah blah.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 12 January 2010 16:11 (fourteen years ago) link

I read it when it first came out - I remember enjoying the Jungian archtype myth parts of it somewhat, but my lingering impression after almost 20 years is that it was over the top and irritatingly new-agey in other parts.

Hi, btw - I've been reading this thread off and on but hadn't jumped in before.

Jaq, Tuesday, 12 January 2010 16:11 (fourteen years ago) link

Hi!

she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 12 January 2010 16:13 (fourteen years ago) link

Hello, friend!

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 12 January 2010 16:14 (fourteen years ago) link

The psychics at the hotline where I used to work were all pretty into that book, too, if that helps any.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 12 January 2010 16:14 (fourteen years ago) link

I think WWRWTW was my first foray into er wimmen's issues/feminist anything so it was like picking the wrong software package to learn a new language (since that book was pretty much off the deep end). Did not comprehend.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, 12 January 2010 16:15 (fourteen years ago) link

Got that as a gift from a family friend when it first came out but never read it. It just seemed too new agey to me, I think.

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Tuesday, 12 January 2010 16:17 (fourteen years ago) link

The psychics at the hotline where I used to work were all pretty into that book, too, if that helps any.

― she is writing about love (Jenny)

omg i want to hear more about this!

DAN P3RRY MAD AT GRANDMA (just1n3), Tuesday, 12 January 2010 16:20 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah, that's what i thought too. i just wondered if maybe i had been wrong all these years and it was just an exploration of women in myth, etc.

i guess my initial suspicion that if that were so, it wouldn't have been such a bestseller is probably accurate. sorry to underestimate the general book buying public, but...i didn't even trust them when i was in high school.

i also thought that clarissa pinkola testes would be a stoopid punny username :-/
i call this my weird al problem.

oh yeah jenny, storytime

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Tuesday, 12 January 2010 16:21 (fourteen years ago) link

In 1996, I lived in Boulder, CO (natch) and got a job as a customer service representative at a small, independently owned psychic hotline. I was eventually promoted to customer service manager. They did a reading on me to determine whether I was a good fit for the position. I worked there a little more than a year, and quit when I moved back to DE to get away from The Worst Boyfriend Ever. Shortly after I left, then sold out to a bigtime 900 line.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 12 January 2010 16:33 (fourteen years ago) link

what kind of customer service issues arise when dealing with psychics? how do you diffuse an angry customer whose reading had not come true? or was it mostly billing?

tehresa, Tuesday, 12 January 2010 19:52 (fourteen years ago) link

Well, as a self-proclaimed "ethical psychic line," matching the customer up with an appropriate reader was very important. We had 12 or maybe 16 readers working for us, but they worked regular shifts. They specialized in different areas, too. So while everybody was adept at relationships, we had a couple who were good with pets, some who were good with careers, one who was good with real estate. Plus they had different reading styles - some were very sweet, some were no-nonsense, some were practical, etc. etc. They used different tools, too (Tarot, scrying, runes, just being psychic). So how it worked is a customer would call a toll-free number and the CSR would tell the customer who was on duty and what their specialties/styles/methods were. We could recommend a particular reader or patch the customer through to the reader of his or her choice. If the customer bought 20 minutes or more of phone time, they had five no-cost minutes to figure out if they didn't like the reader and then they'd come back to the CSR and we'd try again or just refund the money.

We also kept a database of regular customers and tracked who they read with and how much money they spent. We had spending caps! And time limits on 900 line calls! I mean, the spending caps were high enough to get somebody into some trouble, but not high enough to put somebody into bankruptcy.

I don't think I ever had to deal with a customer whose reading did not come true, but I did have to put a woman through to a suicide hotline when one of our readers told her that her cat was going to die and she called back in a bad way saying that she was going to kill herself. Eeeeeeeee. She got put on the "No Calls" list, meaning that we would not accept her business anymore. This was for the protection of the psychics, who could be psychically harmed by a particular kind of crazy.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 12 January 2010 20:01 (fourteen years ago) link

Which isn't to say that people's readings always came true, just that most people were placated by the personal attention and money back deal that they didn't make a fuss if a reader was inaccurate. Also, it is easy enough to explain that away by saying that there just wasn't a good connection, or that the customer knowing what was going to happen changed the outcome, etc. etc.

Oh as a CSR, I got free readings from all of the staff psychics so I could better explain to customers how they worked.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 12 January 2010 20:04 (fourteen years ago) link

that sounds infinitely more awesome than when i worked in a call center :(

tehresa, Tuesday, 12 January 2010 20:04 (fourteen years ago) link

did you ever learn anything awesome from one of your readings?

tehresa, Tuesday, 12 January 2010 20:05 (fourteen years ago) link

Sometimes it was awesome. Sometimes it was ridiculous, such as when the psychics attempted to solve a computer problem by sending sexual energy into the computers. Sometimes it was kind of awful, like when one of the Head Psychics cornered a friend and coworker and told her all the ways that she was ruining her own life through her negativity and bringing sickness onto herself. Blech.

I also got to take free Tarot reading classes, so between that and waiting tables, I always have a career to fall back on.

There's one thing that one of my favorite readers told me once that I always liked, which is that my luck rolls out in front of me like a red carpet, wherever I go.

she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 12 January 2010 20:08 (fourteen years ago) link

no thanks i don't like ranking things

harbl, Saturday, 16 January 2010 17:27 (fourteen years ago) link

i liked Fat Girl (Catherine Breillat, 2001)

harbl, Saturday, 16 January 2010 17:32 (fourteen years ago) link

did not like Maria Full of Grace (Joshua Marston, 2004, Colombia/USA)

harbl, Saturday, 16 January 2010 17:33 (fourteen years ago) link

hope this helps

harbl, Saturday, 16 January 2010 17:33 (fourteen years ago) link

no offense omar little i really like you but i don't see a point in doing that :-/

harbl, Saturday, 16 January 2010 17:35 (fourteen years ago) link

i haven't seen enough of them
(i liked Fat Girl too. breillat is so interesting & sometimes really awful, i have the impression she is basically a philosopher and just decided to do film instead of writing essays.)

kicker conspiracy (s. suisham ha ha) (daria-g), Saturday, 16 January 2010 17:58 (fourteen years ago) link

haven't seen enough of them either. my viewing has really slowed down the past few years and even before then most of what i watched was pre-2000 ˘\(o_º)/˘

harbl, Saturday, 16 January 2010 18:47 (fourteen years ago) link

no one over there is voting for claire denis? wtf is wrong with you guys (ok i guess in the 00s i've only seen 'trouble everyday' O_O and 'vendredi soir' which was pretty minor)

breillat its like.. if she just wrote essays would seem to me totally within normal boundaries of french theory world, but on film can get really out-there (watched one not long ago just because i like asia argento, even though she sort of stomps through every role the same way whether it is set in the 18th century or not). i kind of admire that she is not afraid to do what she wants, even when it is very very ridiculous. also i know there are all these asian horror takashi miike fanboys out there & i think it would be LOL to get them all to watch some breillat. hey guys, here is some extreme cinema for u! enjoy yourself!

kicker conspiracy (s. suisham ha ha) (daria-g), Saturday, 16 January 2010 19:26 (fourteen years ago) link

i think fat girl is the only breillat i have seen

Witnesses, The

^ this one sucked btw

harbl, Saturday, 16 January 2010 19:46 (fourteen years ago) link

loved La Ciénaga (Lucrecia Martel, 2001, Argentina)

harbl, Saturday, 16 January 2010 19:49 (fourteen years ago) link

ha ok i actually tried. without voting for every one i've seen (some were bad and some i remember nothing about) i only got to 18. sorry, omar.

harbl, Saturday, 16 January 2010 20:18 (fourteen years ago) link

Hey, I think it's really great that you are recruiting more ILX women to vote in your movie poll. I will vote if I can think of 40 recent movies that I saw in the last ten years, much less liked.

(I don't even know who Claire Denis is, so maybe I am not qualified to vote in this, however.)

she is writing about love (Jenny), Saturday, 16 January 2010 20:51 (fourteen years ago) link

gtfo, dudes

mod, Saturday, 16 January 2010 21:05 (fourteen years ago) link

i don't want to struggle to think of 40 recent movies i have seen and actually enjoyed and would be willing to rep for. instead i have this picture of a badass himalayan goat

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_b8FcJhoI1to/R8JlcPMimrI/AAAAAAAAAAs/JgCw6eozJqE/s320/asiaMarkhor.jpg

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Sunday, 17 January 2010 01:02 (fourteen years ago) link

that goat is amazing.

tehresa, Sunday, 17 January 2010 01:18 (fourteen years ago) link

he is called the markhor, and only 2000-4000 of them still exist! here's a fact sheet
http://www.ultimateungulate.com/Artiodactyla/Capra_falconeri.html

what a fucking awesome goat

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Sunday, 17 January 2010 01:55 (fourteen years ago) link

Breillat's first movie reminds of a John Waters movie without the sense of humor. And Mort Shuman wrote the songs!! And Shirley Stoler's in it!

harbl, you should watch 36 Fillette because in the beginning of the movie, the girl is knitting on circulars and complaining about her project.

tokyo rosemary, Sunday, 17 January 2010 03:28 (fourteen years ago) link

omg that goat!!

t(o_o)t (ENBB), Sunday, 17 January 2010 04:38 (fourteen years ago) link

i should see 36 fillette. i need to get netflix again.

harbl, Sunday, 17 January 2010 16:07 (fourteen years ago) link

reposted from ILS dresses thread:

women be shoppin sale alert: 70% off sale at modcloth, i got 4 pretty nice dresses for work for $60 total. lots of sizes available.

― figgy pudding (La Lechera), Wednesday, January 20, 2010 10:00 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Wednesday, 20 January 2010 19:33 (fourteen years ago) link

thank you! i bought a cute red/white plaid summer dress for $15

DAN P3RRY MAD AT GRANDMA (just1n3), Thursday, 21 January 2010 03:48 (fourteen years ago) link

i saw that one! i had to control myself and only get stuff i could wear to work. ok that's a lie, i got ONE cute summer dress (the b/w polka dots sheath dress)

it's really hard to control myself when so many cute dresses are $15.

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Thursday, 21 January 2010 14:53 (fourteen years ago) link

i know, i wanted to go crazy - there were a bunch of dresses AND coats/jackets i would have bought. but having just spent close to $300 on a wedding dress, i wasn't really feeling good about spending more money on clothes :/

DAN P3RRY MAD AT GRANDMA (just1n3), Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:49 (fourteen years ago) link

fwiw that is a very reasonable amt to spend on a wedding dress! (although i realize that empirically it is a lot of money for one one-day garment)

figgy pudding (La Lechera), Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:56 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah i guess, but it ~feels~ extravagant! but it's the kind of dress that i can hem and dye and get a ton of wear out of, so i try to remind myself of that every time i start getting that sick feeling.

DAN P3RRY MAD AT GRANDMA (just1n3), Thursday, 21 January 2010 18:00 (fourteen years ago) link

three months pass...

11. If You Have Ever Been Charged With Stalking, Keep That On The Low. Real Low.

ian, Saturday, 1 May 2010 02:36 (thirteen years ago) link

Men are allowed to swing their penis freely without judgment.

Guns, Computer, The Internet (harbl), Saturday, 1 May 2010 12:33 (thirteen years ago) link

women over 30 are not allowed to sleep without turning into GORILLA FACE
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/beauty/article7116039.ece

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Thursday, 6 May 2010 14:05 (thirteen years ago) link

The comments to that article are a rare and pleasant exception to the first rule of the internet (which of course is "Never, EVER, read the comments.").

Also I don't know what she means by "gorilla face" but if she's writing to a certain subset of anti-aging, product-obsessed Women of Means, maybe putting a little of that subcutaneous fat back in place would help support those cheeks, Toots. You were always going to have to choose either your face or your ass, you knew that going in.

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Thursday, 6 May 2010 16:14 (thirteen years ago) link

i got the impression she was talking about the face-smoosh that happens when you sleep really hard with your face against the pillow. it's ok if you sleep hard when you're young, bouncy, and resilient, but don't do it over 30!

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Thursday, 6 May 2010 16:36 (thirteen years ago) link

and do not swing your penis freely

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Thursday, 6 May 2010 16:36 (thirteen years ago) link

Well you're supposed to use silk pillowcases, obv. They slide against skin and don't pull it as much, this is esp important for front- or side-sleepers. Those fibers aren't as elastic as they used to be, your days of looking fresh are numbered, BE AFRAID BE VERY AFRAID and etc.

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Thursday, 6 May 2010 16:39 (thirteen years ago) link

i did look pretty grizzled this morning

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Thursday, 6 May 2010 17:07 (thirteen years ago) link

So did I but I was up til 3am. O_o

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Thursday, 6 May 2010 17:08 (thirteen years ago) link

i was only up til 1
but i got up at 6!

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Thursday, 6 May 2010 17:09 (thirteen years ago) link

Not that this thread is about shopping but LL Bean has an awesome patent-leather skinny belt in bright colors for $25 and I am in awe at a lot of their women's stuff right now actually. Striking the right note of WASPY geometric mid-century crispness for this summer, imo.

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Thursday, 6 May 2010 17:17 (thirteen years ago) link

That sounds good.

Before I read on I thought 'gorilla face' was waking up and discovering an inch-long hair growing out of some random part of the face that was not in evidence the night before, but no. Worked at the PC incarnation of the Body Shop and there's nothing non-feminist about moisturizer AFAIAC. I only started getting the mush-face thing recently, but HINT it's much worse if you like coffee and cigarettes but do not like water as much as either. Otherwise it has not been too bad (good cheekbones help). The aging-skin thing I hate most is that it shows signs of sun faster - and I'm a lifetime cultivator of pallor. Slight problem: I break out when SPF is involved.

If I could, I'd go to a steam room every day.

sharia twain (suzy), Thursday, 6 May 2010 17:45 (thirteen years ago) link

Kenneth Wheatley wrote:
Bloody nonsence. Whats more I nearly read all of it!!
Kenneth Wheatley

roxymuzak, Thursday, 6 May 2010 20:57 (thirteen years ago) link

Good old Kenneth Wheatley.

Aqua Backrat (ENBB), Thursday, 6 May 2010 20:58 (thirteen years ago) link

i love him!

roxymuzak, Thursday, 6 May 2010 21:02 (thirteen years ago) link

who gives a shit

Guns, Computer, The Internet (harbl), Thursday, 6 May 2010 22:30 (thirteen years ago) link

so... how important is it these days for a girl to know how to cook well? Or even just, you know, not burn everything.

Does anyone else feel pressured to "be into" traditional girl stuff like cooking and sewing and crafts, shopping, and doing hair and make up? I'm pretty girly but I just have never got the hang of this stuff and feel that I'm paying a price for it the older I get.

peacocks, Friday, 7 May 2010 18:20 (thirteen years ago) link

i constantly feel like i have to know how to dress appropriate to the occasion (e.g. what to wear to the theatre or to a fancy dinner), how to put on makeup, how to walk in heels, how to wear jewellery without fidgeting, etc. I'm not very girly and that stuff just takes so much hard work, but I feel like I'll be judged very harshly for getting it wrong so I can't just opt out the way I can opt out of girly social stuff like shopping. On the other hand I don't feel pressured into cooking/sewing, maybe purely because i'm minimally competent at them already.

control (c sharp major), Friday, 7 May 2010 18:30 (thirteen years ago) link

well, cooking is important because it's useful to know how to feed/nourish yourself. has little to do with what other people think imo.

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Friday, 7 May 2010 19:42 (thirteen years ago) link

get out of here

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Friday, 7 May 2010 19:56 (thirteen years ago) link

Well, you can opt out of things that you just don't do. Lots of people don't go the opera. Or cocktail parties. Or, I dunno, encase sparkly things in plastic and call them jewelry and sell them on etsy.

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Friday, 7 May 2010 20:19 (thirteen years ago) link

http://www.whatthefuckshouldimakefordinner.com/veg.php <-----pretty cool website I prob should have found earlier.

I am perfectly capable of feeding myself. It is feeding others that is the problem. I'm cool with lightly sauteed vegetables with very little seasoning and some rice or a salad or something. I'm also partial to the sandwich. BUT when I make something for OTHER people {sometimes [usually] (a) dude(s)} there's this expectation that maybe I am putting on myself to CREATE something MAGNIFICENT and then it ends up burning and I pout because I'm not being a good home maker or whatever. I never aspired to be a home maker which is why I never put effort into learning home make-y things (because they were always boring to me), but now I think that guys maybe want me to know my way around a kitchen and are going to be disappointed when they find out that I'm not as good as I should be, being a girl and all.

Also a lot of my girlfriends aren't into opera or cocktail parties but they are really into, like, making their own pads and shoes and sitting around knitting or baking kale (ew). These are things I think are cool and have tried many times but can never really get into myself. A lot of times by opting out of these things I am opting out of entire friendships, and that sucks.

peacocks, Friday, 7 May 2010 20:43 (thirteen years ago) link

the solution to the first thing is boys who can cook.

horseshoe, Friday, 7 May 2010 20:50 (thirteen years ago) link

not sure i can help you
this doesn't sound like a genuine problem to me -- sounds like you are feeling imaginary pressure

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Friday, 7 May 2010 20:51 (thirteen years ago) link

yes. you are right. horse shoe also has a good point.

peacocks, Friday, 7 May 2010 20:53 (thirteen years ago) link

i do not feel pressured to know anything but i feel bad about some stuff i don't know how to do that is not girl stuff so maybe you should consider it that way, learn how to be better at cooking only if you want to not because some dude is gonna be unimpressed

Guns, Computer, The Internet (harbl), Friday, 7 May 2010 21:09 (thirteen years ago) link

I feel this pressure too, peacocks. I have lived off ready meals and stuff straight out of a can forever and now I realise I can't cook at all. Have found a boy who can cook but still feel guilty when he says he is tired of cooking every night (but when I do cook I fuck up the timings and he looks vaguely disapproving at the tasteless mush I serve up, or when I say "oh hey let's eat this thing I like and have cooked before!" it is something he doesn't like anyway)

womanhood is all about the imaginary pressures, right? then some of them turn out not to be so imaginary no matter how many well-meaning people tell us we should just get up and deal

xylyl syzygy (a passing spacecadet), Friday, 7 May 2010 21:24 (thirteen years ago) link

WomanhoodAdulthood is all about imaginary pressures.

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Friday, 7 May 2010 21:25 (thirteen years ago) link

So the "feminine thing" is to be good at in-the-house stuff and leave out-of-house & repairing stuff to the guys, but now most of of us live in apts without yards or whatever and probably don't have cars that need fixing and/or no one does their own plumbing anyway so we don't have traditional division of labor any longer. Conclusion: the home and quality-of-life stuff ends up being mostly what needs to get done.

It's sort of uncool to totally opt out of a chore, that's like if your boyfriend said "I'm never doing the laundry because I don't like it and I will ensure that I do a bad job, so you should just do it now before it becomes a problem." Maybe you're cool with that, and whoever doesn't feel like doing laundry when it's their turn will take it out and pay $12 to have it dropped off out of their own spending budget. Or whoever dislikes cooking/can't cook can put aside money to order in at least one night a week if the partner cooks the other 5 nights (plus one night for sandwiches because I love sandwiches).

Or just offer to take over something else that you dislike doing less. It depends on what matters to you both!

My bf thinks dinner has to be a hot meal of some kind, and I could care less if I eat sandwiches (SANDWICHES!) or leftovers or a salad or cheese & crackers or whatever. So on nights when I'm tired or lazy, if he wants a hot dinner, he'll just have to cook it. (Frequently these are the nights he buys a roasted chicken at the grocery store's deli counter.)

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Friday, 7 May 2010 21:44 (thirteen years ago) link

i fell slight pressure to perform in the kitchen, but i think my BF does too

we are both overly apologetic when something goes wrong

roxymuzak, Friday, 7 May 2010 22:01 (thirteen years ago) link

one of my most bizzare interactions ever with a male was centered on the cooking issues. we were not romantically involved, and were very new friends. he came over and i was sick. he said he would cook some mashed potatoes. he worked for ages on them and the house was full of wonderful smells. then he delivered them to me: diced potatoes that were somehow completely raw swimming in garlicky, buttery water, and then he wordlessly exited. it was very awkward

roxymuzak, Friday, 7 May 2010 22:04 (thirteen years ago) link

i will admit that i am a pretty awesome cook, but i taught myself 100% and that's because i wanted to, not because i cared what anyone thought. it's just something i enjoy doing and getting better at and whatever. i don't know how to play music, so this is my creative contribution to the world.

gotta tell you though -- i feel more or less immune to these imaginary pressures. i would like to learn how to sew, but not really because i feel deficient in any way; i just want to make clothes my size.

that potato water - yuk

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Friday, 7 May 2010 22:30 (thirteen years ago) link

i guess it is uncool to opt out of cooking, but when me cooking makes us both unhappy - ??? (probably can't live on chinese takeaway half the week)

though currently the division is that he cooks everything and i pay for the everything, which is probably only going to make us both unhappy, him cz he's doing all the work and me cz i'm spending all the money

should have learnt to cook instead of being lazy and now it is too late as apparently we are never out on different nights to each other

xylyl syzygy (a passing spacecadet), Friday, 7 May 2010 22:33 (thirteen years ago) link

i will admit that i am a pretty awesome cook, but i taught myself 100% and that's because i wanted to, not because i cared what anyone thought. it's just something i enjoy doing and getting better at and whatever.

Yeah, same. My dad is a retired chef and basically grew up in the restaurant my parents owned so that's probably part of it for me too but it's something I love doing. Because my dad was a chef he cooked every single meal that we ever ate. My mom would bake like once a year but I only saw her cook dinner once. My dad was out of town and she made some weird tuna casserole that was like something out of a cookbook from the '50s. I guess maybe because of this I don't really have any sort of "women should be the ones who cook" mentality or feel that pressure. It's just something I enjoy.

I like all the hair and makeup stuff too but not because of weird pressures - I think it's fun.

Aqua Backrat (ENBB), Friday, 7 May 2010 22:37 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah i mean, if you like it do it. if you don't, find something you enjoy doing and do that.

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Friday, 7 May 2010 22:38 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah and if anyone makes you feel bad about not liking certain things then they can go fuck themselves imo.

Aqua Backrat (ENBB), Friday, 7 May 2010 22:39 (thirteen years ago) link

I love cooking. Tonight I made a few days' worth of Jamaican curry lamb and eating this for dinner tonight was kind of perfect for post-election sleep deprivation and the cure of same.

Here's an easy one, spacecadet: orzo. Orzo is pasta that looks like rice, and is at Italian shops. Fry some bacon lardons until well-done and reserve. Chop 200g mushrooms and saute before reserving in the bowl w/lardons. Dice a large onion and fry in olive oil at a highish temp until golden, adding a bit of salt during frying. Add not a mug but a teacup full of orzo pasta to the fried onions and fry until the orzo starts to pick up some colour. Use the same teacup to add one cup of white wine to the pan, followed by three cups of water. Turn down the heat by half so the orzo can cook, and when it is tender, return the bacon and mushrooms to the pan. Warm these through, add two giant spoonfuls of creme fraiche and some cracked pepper. Warm through, plate 'em up and toss some parmesan and more pepper on the top.

You can follow the orzo/onions template to just about any conclusion (I did mussels and scallions orzo yesterday and I'm going to make the orzo version of macaroni and cheese) once you get comfortable with making it.

sharia twain (suzy), Friday, 7 May 2010 22:52 (thirteen years ago) link

that sounds REALLY good.

roxymuzak, Saturday, 8 May 2010 16:33 (thirteen years ago) link

I can only read about cooking angst for so long before I throw an easy recipe at the problem (and this is one I made up myself). Also takes not a long time (think of it like a risotto you don't have to obsessively stir) so perfect for slightly demotivated/preoccupied people who think 'oh shit, must feed self' at some random point in the day.

sharia twain (suzy), Saturday, 8 May 2010 16:40 (thirteen years ago) link

That does sound good! Boyfriend does not eat pasta which has made most of my own limited cooking knowledge redundant, but next time he's not here I might see if I can get some orzo (deli nearby probably has it). Have tried risottos and paella but they have always turned into a not very flavourful soup, so an easy alternative sounds great.

xylyl syzygy (a passing spacecadet), Saturday, 8 May 2010 20:14 (thirteen years ago) link

I really hate making risotto. Maybe if I'm using up the last of a dying hunk of parmesan, but there are so many things that I could use that up in, it seems stupid to make a special trip to the shops for arborio rice. There's an orzo-ish variant on paella called fideua that's well worth attempting, and I think it tastes nicer than paella.

If you've got an Asian shop that sells pre-made spice preps for various dishes, trying biriyani using the recipe on the box might be boyfriend-friendly. All of the box cheats you can buy at those shops are completely legit/tasty in the eyes of yr avg Asian mum BTW, and you'll get an idea for the right level of spice in an 'authentic' recipe.

sharia twain (suzy), Saturday, 8 May 2010 20:38 (thirteen years ago) link

That recipe sounds delicious and do-able (except for the lardons but I'm veg so). Also what is cream fraiche? I'll google it.

Cooking is easier for me when there is a plan of action and instructions. My step mom is one of those McGyver kitchen people who can make something amazing out of anything and my mom was until recently a fast food, microwave dinner or ground beef meely muck mo type person so maybe some of the pressure comes from seeing my mom stress when hearing what I ate over the weekend at my dad's.

peacocks, Monday, 10 May 2010 14:12 (thirteen years ago) link

Creme fraiche is like sour cream, but lighter. If you're in America, go for sour cream because for some reason creme fraiche is $$$$$ there.

Original recipe and its variants are so easy - the hardest thing is a walk to the Italian market for the orzo. I may have to splurge and buy truffle oil since the restaurant dish I'm replicating was pure bliss because of this ingredient.

sharia twain (suzy), Monday, 10 May 2010 14:23 (thirteen years ago) link

i've done that! (splurged on truffle oil to replicate a restaurant dish) when i make something like this, sometimes after toasting the starch (orzo/rice) i add a little sherry to the mixture before the stock. it adds a lot of flavor and makes it taste fancy.

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Monday, 10 May 2010 14:28 (thirteen years ago) link

also peacocks you should stop listening to the pressure and spend more time cooking with the stepmom, provided that you enjoy her company.

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Monday, 10 May 2010 14:29 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah if yr partner nixed pasta completely, I see how that would make cooking much more difficult! My partner has nixed all Mexican foods, because apparently he "hates" it (you can hate meat and vegetables and cheese on a corn-meal plate? Who knew??). So that's a pain.

I bought orzo last weekend to make a cold salad with chickpeas, lemon juice, and something else, but maybe I'll use suzy's plan instead!

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Monday, 10 May 2010 14:30 (thirteen years ago) link

I very often make one thing for my partner and something completely different for myself. Last night he had a small steak, a spinach salad, and couscous. I had fish on a bed of greens with some couscous on the side. Sometimes I make soup for me and then different stuff for him. I used to make the same thing for both of us, but I got tired of always eating what he wanted. Now I still cook it all, but I get to eat what I want. We've lived together for ~10 yrs, so these things happen.

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Monday, 10 May 2010 14:34 (thirteen years ago) link

I actually have a tinytiny bottle of truffle oil! At which point would the truffle oil be applied, suzy? Thinking I might do this this evening as other half is out and I'll be going past a deli which may have orzo. Depends on if deli is open when I get there.

(Yes, most of my lazy cook-for-self recipes were pasta-based, or at least the ones which could actually came out OK fairly consistently. Have considered redoing them with e.g. couscous but he's not mad on tomato-based or carbonara-ish sauces either so may as well give up on them completely.)

xylyl syzygy (a passing spacecadet), Monday, 10 May 2010 14:57 (thirteen years ago) link

i drizzle a (very!) little bit over the whole thing at the end, but i am not suzy

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Monday, 10 May 2010 15:01 (thirteen years ago) link

Plenty of pasta sauces could transition to being soups and be eaten with crusty buttered bread instead of pasta. Just thin them out with whatever base seems like the most logical for that sauce: some things would become soups with veg or chicken broth, some things you could thin ("thin") with cream. Then after you've made it that way once or twice, if you want it thicker in the future try adding some diced potatoes, or cook & blend some cauliflower to give it more body. Maybe it could use a can of white beans to make it more hearty (tip: white beans go awesome with the whole cannon of Italian sauces).

The trick may be to trick yourself into cooking while making your lizard-brain think you're just doing what you usually do.

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Monday, 10 May 2010 15:03 (thirteen years ago) link

Yep, right at the end. The place where I had ham/mushroom orzo in creamy sauce mixed parmesan and breadcrumbs infused with truffle oil and sprinkled it on top of the orzo, in a little ramekin, and then put this under a grill for a minute. Smelled amazing. You can also just put a few drops in at the end, less complicated.

Is there any food that when rejected by a partner, becomes a deal-breaker? I would be really annoyed if I had to make different meals (and the corresponding extra dishes) for two people and probably wouldn't weather someone who hated a major cuisine that I loved.

Orzo is better hot. Oddly, I used to stay away from pasta in college because I did not want to eat Poor Student Food. I don't think I've eaten cold pasta salad since 1989 - too dressingish - unless it's the 5-gallon batch of shrimp/egg/grape/macaroni salad my mother is liable to make for picnics and potlucks, which casual readers are right to be scared by. She would want to chop my arm off for shrimp-raiding this delicacy when I was little, but hey.

sharia twain (suzy), Monday, 10 May 2010 15:07 (thirteen years ago) link

i could never live with a vegan
(sorry vegans)

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Monday, 10 May 2010 15:11 (thirteen years ago) link

It's pretty Midwestern but White Chicken Chili is a total no-brainer, if you're interested in the recp.

xp Haha I am suspicious of all mayo-based salads or the slimy pasta-with-oil things I see at New Jersey cook-outs, except that my mom has always made a tuna & pasta salad that's probably grosser than all of the above combined but in fact I love it.

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Monday, 10 May 2010 15:11 (thirteen years ago) link

I LOVED eating Ramen or instant rice things in college b/c I'd never had them before/they were not allowed at home.

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Monday, 10 May 2010 15:12 (thirteen years ago) link

Honestly, if someone gave me vinaigrette-soaked pasta and pepper salad in the 21st Century it would be deeply embarrassing. Midwestern Mom salad does imprint though I'm tempted to call it 'summer hotdish' because there's still tuna/chicken/beans in it and Durkee onions on top.

It's sad but my reaction to vegans being awkward* is BRING ME BACON or similar.

*awkward = not letting you know they're a vegan until they land in the middle of your dinner party, or in any way doing a PSA for veganism in the middle of something else.

sharia twain (suzy), Monday, 10 May 2010 15:23 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah, i don't even like meat that much, but tell me i can't have it and i want a burger

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Monday, 10 May 2010 15:24 (thirteen years ago) link

Our version is a cold tuna-and-pasta salad using large shell pasta with small amnt mayo as a binder, extra lemon juice, shredded carrot, shredded cheddar, halved grapes, diced celery, sometimes halved pimiento olives (which I pick out). I think it must have evolved from "how can I feed 6 people with what's in the pantry, and sneak in two or three vegetables?"

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Monday, 10 May 2010 15:28 (thirteen years ago) link

i think my mom's pasta salad is good. no mayo or grapes (?) though. usually pieces of fresh mozzarella, olives, roasted red peppers, some other stuff i can't remember.

Guns, Computer, The Internet (harbl), Monday, 10 May 2010 15:31 (thirteen years ago) link

Oh yeah, where it detours to cheddar and grapes, we're not even pretending that this is related to Italian food in any way. Fresh mozz sounds nice.

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Monday, 10 May 2010 15:32 (thirteen years ago) link

i am a fan of cold pasta in general

Guns, Computer, The Internet (harbl), Monday, 10 May 2010 15:33 (thirteen years ago) link

OH well see that was more when I was a kid. My mom is retired now and makes all kinds of things so we have been cooking together more. My step dad is usually the main cook but they mostly work as a team which is what I would like in a relationship re. cooking.

Last week's egg fiasco had me unnecessarily nervous and quite overly apologetic. I'm over it now since I was able to prove to myself that I am not a complete kitchen ignoramus by making excellent blueberry pancakes from scratch for mother's day and spent more time in the kitchen making lunch and helping with dinner.

I'm vegetarian and am seeing a meat eater. He hasn't expressed any desire to make things with meat when we're eating together which is nice but eventually I'm sure he'll want to. I don't think I would object to preparing meat as long as I don't have to buy it and of course not eat it. Although, over the years I have become increasingly more squeamish when it comes to bloody looking meat. I guess I'll just have to find out when the time comes.

peacocks, Monday, 10 May 2010 15:36 (thirteen years ago) link

i don't really enjoy cooking meat and would have trouble being with someone who needs it every day. i've been eating more chicken lately but without a dishwasher i'm afraid to let it touch too many surfaces.

Guns, Computer, The Internet (harbl), Monday, 10 May 2010 15:38 (thirteen years ago) link

ps. my mom always makes tuna salad with apples, chopped almonds, celery, olive oil mayo and curry powder. It is sooo good and one of the only times I will ever eat fish.

peacocks, Monday, 10 May 2010 15:40 (thirteen years ago) link

My mom's evil salad is small/large shrimps, white grape halves, macaroni shells, boiled eggs, finely chopped scallions, mayo. If I'm not around I'm sure she makes it with tuna. Things I didn't eat as a child: mayo-based salads, Boston baked beans, canned tuna (still will hurl at smell), jello salad, fucking horrible five-bean salad and anything made with Miracle Whip. At summer potlucks I had very little choice apart from grill stuff and fruit.

sharia twain (suzy), Monday, 10 May 2010 15:43 (thirteen years ago) link

hb: Plant mister full of water with a capful of bleach, recommended. Best not to accidentally get any on your clothes, though.

Or if your sink has a drain-stopper, dump all the things that touched the chicken in there, cover them w hot water, add couple of caps of bleach, wait 5 mins or so. Drain hot water, wash items normally.

It's not perfect but it's more than adequate for at-home use.

XP now see, that's a mongrel salad too, some let's-add-canned-fish version of the Walforf. I feel better now.

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Monday, 10 May 2010 15:43 (thirteen years ago) link

XXP. And WalDorf, obv.

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Monday, 10 May 2010 15:43 (thirteen years ago) link

but no one NEEDS meat every day -- maybe my earlier example misrepresented my partner's eating habits. usually we're pretty much vegetarian about 75% of the time; i do like to use meat to flavor things, though, and am not interested in forsaking cheese or butter or honey.

anyway, i just can't deal with the overwhelming (to me) severity of veganism.

"salads" with mayo have disgusted me since the day i was born. i have never eaten one and i never plan to. <-- this is the kind of severity i can get behind!

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Monday, 10 May 2010 15:44 (thirteen years ago) link

nah i don't like playing around with bleach, i'd rather just not eat it or throw it into a skillet without letting it touch anything else
i like three-bean salad (green beans, kidney beans, garbanzos w/ balsamic/olive oil dressing + herbs)

Guns, Computer, The Internet (harbl), Monday, 10 May 2010 15:45 (thirteen years ago) link

There's probably a vinegar rinse that would kill salmonella et al too. I'm sure there are eco-/pet-friendly alternatives to bleach.

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Monday, 10 May 2010 15:46 (thirteen years ago) link

i could figure it out if i wanted to, i just don't want to that bad

Guns, Computer, The Internet (harbl), Monday, 10 May 2010 15:47 (thirteen years ago) link

I've been vigorously anti-potato salad my whole life but I made it 100x last summer per the Cook's Illus recp and I can't get enough. More vinegar-y than mayo, for sure.

Re chicken: it's so much cheaper to buy a whole one or buy more parts and section them out yourself, that I try to do that instead of getting the more processed skinless/boneless/tasteless breasts. But working with it more means it touches more things: knife, kitchen scissors, cutting board, my hands. I try to be sanitary about that stuff.

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Monday, 10 May 2010 15:50 (thirteen years ago) link

vinegar solves every problem.

http://www.versatilevinegar.org/usesandtips.html

peacocks, Monday, 10 May 2010 15:50 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah i clean everything with vinegar

Guns, Computer, The Internet (harbl), Monday, 10 May 2010 15:51 (thirteen years ago) link

Whenever I've worked with chicken recently I've washed the pieces in lemon or lime juice depending on the recipe, but otherwise I just clean up with thick bleach at the end.

I love nice mayo (it was like a golden door opened when I discovered it went with fries) but anything with raw yolk or obvious yolk used to make me heave when I was a kid.

sharia twain (suzy), Monday, 10 May 2010 15:53 (thirteen years ago) link

New question. Not intending flame war or anything, but can I get a sampling of people's feelings about gettin hitched & changing your name?

I have always thought it was so obvious as to be a non-issue that I'd keep my own, and now that appears not to be an option under the circs. Got kinda weird at my house last night.

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Monday, 10 May 2010 16:01 (thirteen years ago) link

don't see a reason to change names anymore & would get really mad/uncomfortable @ someone for thinking it's mandatory because it kinda shows their whole philosophy on that kind of stuff

Guns, Computer, The Internet (harbl), Monday, 10 May 2010 16:03 (thirteen years ago) link

It depends on the name and how it matches the other names.

sharia twain (suzy), Monday, 10 May 2010 16:05 (thirteen years ago) link

It's up to you to do what you want for your own reasons. It's not something that should be discussed in the hypothetical because every situation is different. Every decision to keep or change one's name could change acc. to the circumstances. That's my philosophy.

I did what I wanted (changed my name, shifted former surname to middle name) because it's what I wanted to do under my individual set of circumstances. Not going into any reasons on the internet.

Sounds stressful, though. Sorry L.

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Monday, 10 May 2010 16:06 (thirteen years ago) link

...but if partner is asking for negation of your name then :/

sharia twain (suzy), Monday, 10 May 2010 16:06 (thirteen years ago) link

YES harbl which since I know his philosph, I thought it would never come up and therefore I never BROUGHT it up. I "forgot" his family is Roman Catholic & I appear to have misunderestimated how strong the tradition/history is there.

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Monday, 10 May 2010 16:06 (thirteen years ago) link

Also he says that it's "normal" and possibly even legally required for womenz to change their names at marriage in (most of?) Europe, which I would never have guessed. Maybe sexism is a thing like "racism" that Europe thinks it's so "over" that no one talks about it.

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Monday, 10 May 2010 16:10 (thirteen years ago) link

i have heard that about europe

Guns, Computer, The Internet (harbl), Monday, 10 May 2010 16:11 (thirteen years ago) link

It's just not true. Has he been to Europe?

sharia twain (suzy), Monday, 10 May 2010 16:11 (thirteen years ago) link

He's from there.

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Monday, 10 May 2010 16:12 (thirteen years ago) link

i'm unsure of what's actually going on here:

1) are you trying to change his mind?
2) are you trying to convince yourself to agree with him?
3) are you genuinely trying to make this decision because he has proposed?
4) is this conversation about a decision that is, at this time, purely/almost entirely hypothetical?

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Monday, 10 May 2010 16:20 (thirteen years ago) link

The third one, but it turns out it is contingent on my not keeping only my own name. Which we had simply never talked about before, so we both feel blind-sided by the other.

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Monday, 10 May 2010 16:23 (thirteen years ago) link

I of course think he's being 100% retarded.

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Monday, 10 May 2010 16:24 (thirteen years ago) link

aha. well, at least it's not hypothetical -- those conversations are like precedent-setting provocations to argue.
on the other hand, congratulations?!

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Monday, 10 May 2010 16:26 (thirteen years ago) link

that's kind of a weird condition? like forgetting the point of getting married?

Guns, Computer, The Internet (harbl), Monday, 10 May 2010 16:27 (thirteen years ago) link

well i guess it depends what you think the point is

Guns, Computer, The Internet (harbl), Monday, 10 May 2010 16:27 (thirteen years ago) link

My understanding of the point last night was mostly "What fucking year is it again?!? Oh wait Southern Europe plus RC, you can't tell your family, can you, yeah now we're getting somewhere...."

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Monday, 10 May 2010 16:32 (thirteen years ago) link

Sorry, dint mean to be a big downer. Carry on with cooking or defining femininity!

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Monday, 10 May 2010 17:25 (thirteen years ago) link

eh there's a whole board for talking about cooking

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Monday, 10 May 2010 18:07 (thirteen years ago) link

How does he feel about making up a name that isn't either of yours? I know a few couples who did this and it worked out fine. They either meshed their last names together or came up with an entirely new one.

peacocks, Monday, 10 May 2010 18:44 (thirteen years ago) link

No, their name goes back a long way and has regional significance, it's not possible/acceptable to change it. That's the whole problem, apparently it will simply be too great a problem/too offensive to...his parents? Customs? The Church? I can't really tell who we're talking about here.

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Monday, 10 May 2010 18:48 (thirteen years ago) link

Well, unless there are serious Vanity Fair points to score for changing, hang onto the maiden for work at least.

sharia twain (suzy), Monday, 10 May 2010 18:53 (thirteen years ago) link

I agree with Suzy. You could change it legally and sign your christmas cards with it but keep it for other purposes. More communication about this is needed between you too, obviously.

peacocks, Monday, 10 May 2010 19:03 (thirteen years ago) link

what a shitty compromise though, but i'm the worst compromiser

Guns, Computer, The Internet (harbl), Monday, 10 May 2010 19:04 (thirteen years ago) link

i mean it only makes sense if your only concern is having your own name at your job. if you just want to keep your name because it's your name, then what

Guns, Computer, The Internet (harbl), Monday, 10 May 2010 19:06 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah, I don't know. If you legally keep your name and you have kids, then you still have to decide what the kid's last name is going to be. Is hyphenating an option in your situation Laurel?

peacocks, Monday, 10 May 2010 19:08 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah it was too personal and too vague yest, not a discussion of real pros and cons. We will discuss again, esp after my nightmares this AM re feeling trapped & helpless & alone. For the time being I've agreed to hyphenate but the usage might be situational.

I got the msg as a kid that women who didn't take husband's name were non-believers who didn't understand God's plan for their lives (ie subservience), and that refusing to change was a sign of lack of commitment to the relationship and a warning sign of selfishness in other areas and/or that they might desert their families at any time. At some point that started to seem unfair and a lot like a load of shit, so I went the opposite direction.

Now I have to rethink -- obv the above is not true but neither is the reverse, necessarily. Trying to find potentially new and less reactionary comfort zone re this stuff.

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Monday, 10 May 2010 19:09 (thirteen years ago) link

laurel you are starting to make sense. it's neither one nor the other -- you have to find the solution that is right for you. you should do whatever you want; only you (will) know what that is. it's really hard to know what to do (what you would do) until you can evaluate your own unique individual circumstances.

i changed my name and did not do it because i am a devout xtian (not even a xtian at all) or because my husband asked me to (he didn't care) or because of the children (there are no children) or because any other reason you can probably think of. i did it for my own reason which is mine to know and has nothing to do with anyone who has the audacity to ask me why or question my decision to do what i want with my own fucking name.

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Monday, 10 May 2010 19:13 (thirteen years ago) link

ur not necessarily the reactionary one imo, keeping your name is pretty normal now

Guns, Computer, The Internet (harbl), Monday, 10 May 2010 19:14 (thirteen years ago) link

there are many options and they are all more or less normal in 2010 imo

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Monday, 10 May 2010 19:16 (thirteen years ago) link

I don't think I am either, harb, but a certain amount of this IS about compromise and how far am I willing to take my principles/what am I trying to achieve?

I do care about my name, am proud of it etc but it was acquired through adoption in a prev generation so it's debateably not even rly "mine" and etc etc. I'm not making excuses for giving it up, in fact I can't imagine giving it up, but just saying it's not black & white to me anymore.

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Monday, 10 May 2010 19:22 (thirteen years ago) link

It does seem like a load of shit. I once heard that Mrs means Mr's. I wonder if there is any truth to this. It got my fires burning hearing about it and it made me completely averse to the name change thing when I was pretty apathetic about it before. Of course it is a highly personal decision and who knows what I'll feel about it by the time I get married, if that even happens. Right now I think it will be based mostly on how cool the last name I'm supposed to adopt is compared to mine.

peacocks, Monday, 10 May 2010 19:23 (thirteen years ago) link

Plus if I hyphenate and maybe keep the maiden for career, that's 2/3 more than my own mother even thought about doing. I'm not saving the world here, maybe I could be content w a step in the right direction and trust that through all parts of my life I'll be teaching my own kids to believe something another step further away.

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Monday, 10 May 2010 19:26 (thirteen years ago) link

Not finding anything about the mr's. thing. Wish I could remember where I heard that.

peacocks, Monday, 10 May 2010 19:27 (thirteen years ago) link

yes! Good attitude Laurel.

peacocks, Monday, 10 May 2010 19:28 (thirteen years ago) link

Seems iffy to me because the Mister/Misses/Mistress/Master/etc formation has roots that goes through several languages, probably took a slightly different form in each.

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Monday, 10 May 2010 19:28 (thirteen years ago) link

nah it's not world-saving either way it's just a reflection of what you think marriage is supposed to be
mrs. is an abbrev of "mistress" i thought

Guns, Computer, The Internet (harbl), Monday, 10 May 2010 19:29 (thirteen years ago) link

so wait second -- is a decision to change one's name (a decision made freely and without coercion of any kind) a step in the wrong direction, then? i thought modern times had afforded us the freedom to make our own choices, not the freedom to keep our names.

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Monday, 10 May 2010 19:30 (thirteen years ago) link

Yes, this is what I found out in my brief research. Maybe I made it up? Looks like you've got it figure out now, though. Now you can joyfully celebrate being engaged!

peacocks, Monday, 10 May 2010 19:32 (thirteen years ago) link

I'm sorry, A, I fell into that hole AGAIN, prob because my conflict is all one-way. You're right, what we should be pursuing is personal freedom to choose.

But on the whole I think the ideal sitch would be one in which there's no expectation that either partner will change names.

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Monday, 10 May 2010 20:05 (thirteen years ago) link

but hey, the way I look marriage is about unity, why NOT identify yourselves with the same "brand" so to speak? (Even if as noted upthread you both agree on another name.. )

I say this with one of the most awesome last names in the world: Dick$ - which I love and might make into a middle name, at which point my name will sound like a sentence: Al3xis D1cks $teph3n - since his last name is a first name usually. Dirty!)
(Sorry about obnoxious googleproofing)

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Monday, 10 May 2010 20:11 (thirteen years ago) link

no expectation
^^ the important part

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Monday, 10 May 2010 20:16 (thirteen years ago) link

Hey, you could be married to the British gov't guy Ed Balls. Count your blessings. xpost

sharia twain (suzy), Monday, 10 May 2010 20:19 (thirteen years ago) link

My Dad dated a woman whose last name was Ball :) Unfortunately the woman he fell in love with and married became.. Pat D1cks. *groan*

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Monday, 10 May 2010 20:19 (thirteen years ago) link

Woah - Laurel - congratulations!!!

Aqua Backrat (ENBB), Tuesday, 11 May 2010 02:58 (thirteen years ago) link

Uh, thanks! It's supposed to be a secret right now b/c we don't have rings yet but it required pre-proposal discussion b/c we will BOTH be wearing engagement rings and I don't let anyone pick out ANYTHING that I have to wear every day. :D

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Tuesday, 11 May 2010 13:24 (thirteen years ago) link

I'm more bothered by the part about the engagement being off if you don't take his name. You do sound like you are desprately trying to convince yourself that your desison in this was right. Was this his idea, or his family?

Incidently, I not only kept my own very, very rare last name (which is not Indigo), I also was the one to propose.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Tuesday, 11 May 2010 14:40 (thirteen years ago) link

What happened was more or less what I knew would happen -- we had the emotional version two nights ago, and a more reasonable discussion yest eve.

He retracted all the absolutes and asked me nicely and I am mollified, and of a much better mind to compromise in the first place.

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Tuesday, 11 May 2010 14:50 (thirteen years ago) link

ahhhhhhhhhhh much better
now you can start getting excited!!

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Tuesday, 11 May 2010 14:53 (thirteen years ago) link

OMG SQUEE no, jk.

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Tuesday, 11 May 2010 14:55 (thirteen years ago) link

of course, proceed calmly and rationally ;)

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Tuesday, 11 May 2010 15:00 (thirteen years ago) link

We sort of mutually agreed to it, no one really "asked" anyone so it's a little anti-climactic. If anything, having witnessed my sister's wedding preparations a few years ago has given me a new motto: Save the (wedding-related) drama for someone of no relation; your mama deserves better.

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Tuesday, 11 May 2010 15:01 (thirteen years ago) link

Laurel: awesome!!!! congratulations!!!

sort of related: am I the only person not 100% enthusiastic about men asking the fathers before they propose?

tokyo rosemary, Tuesday, 11 May 2010 15:02 (thirteen years ago) link

Uh yeah there was no consultation with any male parent involved.

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Tuesday, 11 May 2010 15:07 (thirteen years ago) link

I don't want my dad "giving" me away at the wedd, either. Partly because I think a lot of the wedding script is silly and why bother, and partly for very considered reasons such as: I am not leaving my father's household to go straight into the arms of another budding patriarch. That's some nonsense and I'm not going to play-act that that is what's happening.

OTOH I think Dad might be genuinely hurt, and that'd be awfully unfair and bad so I'll have to approach carefully w him.

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Tuesday, 11 May 2010 15:11 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah, I didn't think you would be one for that tradition .

I was a party last month, and a guy was telling us about his proposal plans and he was going to ask the father AND the brothers. Which was struck me a bit much.

xpost - ooo yeah the "giving away" business.

tokyo rosemary, Tuesday, 11 May 2010 15:14 (thirteen years ago) link

My brothers would put the kibosh on that, no questions asked or answered. lol just thinking about their probable responses....

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Tuesday, 11 May 2010 15:21 (thirteen years ago) link

awwww, my fiance asked my Dad which I thought was very sweet & old fashioned & etc. Maybe my worldview is 2010 enough that I never expect any of these kinds of old-fashioned things, so it means more? Asking my Dad never said to me 'can I buy your daughter from you?' but more of a 'Do you feel I am good enough for your daughter?' My dad's response, awesomely, was something like "Sure, if she wants to" :) I got a no-ring proposal too because my Dad is a jeweller and they both knew I wanted him to make my ring. Been engaged a year now without the "official" ring, wearing a loaner from Dad in the meantime.. can't wait for mine, the idea is a bird's nest with a bird on either side of it and diamonds for eggs.. hope it works out!

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Tuesday, 11 May 2010 15:32 (thirteen years ago) link

Frankly my dad would prob be like, "Are you sure you've thought this through completely? You have met my daughter, right?"

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Tuesday, 11 May 2010 15:34 (thirteen years ago) link

"I mean if you think you're ready..."

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Tuesday, 11 May 2010 15:34 (thirteen years ago) link

LOL Dad waited til after the engagement to start ripping on him for picking me :)

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Tuesday, 11 May 2010 15:40 (thirteen years ago) link

congratulations Laurel!!!

yeah, asking the dad tradition bugs me, too. i knew a lot of Muslim girls growing up who were really into/romanticized it.

horseshoe, Tuesday, 11 May 2010 23:58 (thirteen years ago) link

omg laurel!! i always forget to read this board but finally i remembered and whoa! congratulations :) i will now start the process of adjusting to the idea of you as really-not-single

planes/octaves/dimensions of existence (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 12 May 2010 01:48 (thirteen years ago) link

i think i am just going to marry bulleit bourbon tbh but live in separate cities so i don't tire of it

planes/octaves/dimensions of existence (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 12 May 2010 03:17 (thirteen years ago) link

my two cents:
i was happy to change my name when i got married, but i have little attachment to my maiden name (i've had about 3 different ones, due to complicated family circumstances). my husband wasn't too concerned what i wanted to do, but it was my way of making a symbolic gesture towards the idea that we were about to start 'our' family together, and to start our lives together. i don't think everyone should do this, but as said above you should do what feels good for your situation.

oh, and we thought it would help our immigration case that i had changed my name, too.

the only thing i wish i'd done differently: i had no idea you could change any part of your name when you got married. it wasn't until the day, when we were signing the paperwork, and i didn't have any time to think about it. but now i wish i'd gotten rid of both my stupid bland middle names and moved my maiden name into the middle.

just1n3, Wednesday, 12 May 2010 23:01 (thirteen years ago) link

also, laurel: i hadn't thought twice about my dad giving me away at our ceremony, when the moment rolled round i decided that i wanted to actually walk down the aisle with my husband, since that made more symbolic sense to me (and also bc we'd spent pretty much the whole day together beforehand). but my dad got all butthurt so we went with the original plan.

just1n3, Wednesday, 12 May 2010 23:03 (thirteen years ago) link

and also: congratulations!!!

just1n3, Wednesday, 12 May 2010 23:03 (thirteen years ago) link

whoa i missed this thread: congratulations!

(I don't quite like the 'it's traditional for the woman to take the man's name' thing purely cos on my dad's side of the family there are at least two cases i know of (in the 1800s) where the man had to take the woman's name or at least double-barrel it because hers was more prestigious or more fiercely held on to. Which makes it totally traditional among my people (i.e. the dirt poor but still snobbish english gentry). And my momz uses her maiden name for academic-y writing but my dad's name for other work. So I don't particularly think of it as a feminist thing, more... a question of what you want to do with the names life has given you. It is supremely unlikely that i get straight married, so it's all moot, but i doubt I'd even combine my name with someone else's, mostly cos it's 1. super rare and 2. already double-barrelled.)

control (c sharp major), Thursday, 13 May 2010 08:00 (thirteen years ago) link

watching padma lakshmi talk about endometriosis on the today show

Guns, Computer, The Internet (harbl), Thursday, 13 May 2010 12:43 (thirteen years ago) link

Thx, everyone. It doesn't feel very real, or at least not like anything is different. But I've always had trouble feeling what I was "supposed" to feel about things (<--- why I left organized religion).

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Thursday, 13 May 2010 13:52 (thirteen years ago) link

What was Padma saying?

wasting time and money trying to change the weather (Laurel), Thursday, 13 May 2010 13:56 (thirteen years ago) link

Congratulations, Laurel!

tweedledee and tweedledem (suzy), Thursday, 13 May 2010 13:59 (thirteen years ago) link

she said you can have laparoscopic surgery every few years to remove the bits of uterus lining that seep into your abdominal cavity and it's like no big deal, sounds great

Guns, Computer, The Internet (harbl), Thursday, 13 May 2010 14:27 (thirteen years ago) link

gyaaaaaa

there's this hilary mantel interview where she talks about having endometriosis and people thinking it was just some psychosomatic hysteria* thing and putting her on antidepressants instead: http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2009/sep/12/hilary-mantel-booker-prize-interview

terror.

* after all, as we all know, hysteria is caused by the floating womb

control (c sharp major), Thursday, 13 May 2010 14:34 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah she said she had undiagnosed pain for a long time before they figured it out. my mom had it so i guess that means i will have it :(

Guns, Computer, The Internet (harbl), Thursday, 13 May 2010 14:40 (thirteen years ago) link

oh hi, thread.

Laurel, hope you figure this out. I remember being totally struck by the feeling of WTF i'm meant to change my NAME?? when I got married - not so much any expectation, more that people do it all the time and yet to me it felt like this massive deal. It's your *name* ffs, one of the most personal things you have!
That said, I changed it to my husband's name even though changing it (to anything) felt weird. My old surname didn't fit too well with my first name and looking at it completely analytically I wanted to do the thing that would cause least hassle - I didn't want to be Mrs "Maiden name" because that felt like I was my mother (considered "Ms Maiden name" which I think would have been my second choice), and I didn't want my husb & I to have separate names just because I can't be bothered to correct the inevitable wrong names people will give us in the future, or work out what to call any future kids. It didn't seem like there was any perfect option - which sucks- but I quite like my married name now.

A friend of mine kept her maiden name professionally but her married name personally but ended up changing to the married name after a few years because of having a bebe (and general simplicity, I guess).

Not the real Village People, Tuesday, 18 May 2010 06:25 (thirteen years ago) link

i had a lot of hassles travelling internationally, recently, bc my passport is still in my maiden name. my husband booked my tickets in my married name bc he figured the most important thing was being able to get back into the US (my gc has my married name). but now i realise it was all backwards: leaving the country and getting into plus exiting new zealand, they wanted to see that my passport matched my boarding pass; coming back into the US they just really only wanted to see my GC and it was totally fine that my passport was still in my old name. i carried my marriage cert with me, but it was all a real pain in the ass.

just1n3, Tuesday, 18 May 2010 06:34 (thirteen years ago) link

btw, I made the orzo thing mentioned upthread with a few additions and subtractions and it was tasty!

peacocks, Wednesday, 19 May 2010 18:09 (thirteen years ago) link

gonna get my hair cut

Guns, Computer, The Internet (harbl), Friday, 21 May 2010 19:04 (thirteen years ago) link

aha http://bitchphd.blogspot.com/2010/05/against-name-change-polemic.html
Come on, we all know tradition sucks.
*hits submit, runs away*

harbl, Sunday, 23 May 2010 19:03 (thirteen years ago) link

why does someone always have to win here? i find that very annoying.

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Sunday, 23 May 2010 20:20 (thirteen years ago) link

The other thing about taking names, or not taking names, is how the end-product name scans. If it were to look clunky on the page I would not go for it, but if it was a cooler name I'd have some of that.

Other than that, I made cream cheese brownies today. Took the last batch into the fashion magazine so I wouldn't eat them all, and this batch is going to the farmers' market tomorrow (picnic after, also response to brownie throwdown). Do not want to blow up to Nigella Lawson size so will probably knock the high-cal recreation on the head.

Nigella is effing gorgeous!

peacocks, Friday, 4 June 2010 16:51 (thirteen years ago) link

Yes, but she can carry off the Rubenesque thing so much better than I ever could!

She can definitely carry it off, so I know what you're saying. She is so sure of herself, and naughty!

peacocks, Friday, 4 June 2010 16:58 (thirteen years ago) link

question: have any of you ever stopped taking hormonal bc (i was using nuva) and experienced near constant migraines after doing so?
is this normal? i don't want to be jacked up on hormones for the rest of my life, so that's why i stopped using it. i just need a break.

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Friday, 4 June 2010 19:59 (thirteen years ago) link

Estrogen levels have been linked to migraines, but studies have shown that Nuvaring users have the lowest blood-estrogen levels of any of the combined BC method users.

kate78, Friday, 4 June 2010 20:16 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah, that's part of why I was using it -- I get migraines every month anyway, so the low estrogen was helpful. I'm just wondering if this is going to stop at some point. I'll give it 2 weeks.

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Friday, 4 June 2010 20:22 (thirteen years ago) link

The nice thing about monophasic hormonal contraception is that you don't really have the fluctuating hormone levels of real life. On or off BC, you're still jacked up on hormones.

kate78, Friday, 4 June 2010 20:37 (thirteen years ago) link

I get (possible sort of*) migraines on my week off the pill, which seems related. Was sort of wondering if the light oestrogen levels of the nuvaring wd give me fewer side-effects than I get from the pill - have tried a bunch of different types of pill and had a bunch of different bad reactions, but am keen to keep not ovulating as that hurts too. Ehh.

* tldr version of "possible sort of migraine" = "an aura-less one-sided headache which coincides with nausea and lasts for most of the day for about 4 days in a row but is a lot less severe than the things I have occasionally which I know are migraines because they come with aura" - instead of needing a day off in a dark room I can sit at work and pretend to be working with only occasional trips to lean my forehead against the cold wall of the bathroom and go "unhhhh", but I am probably not actually doing any work, just silently cursing the universe and striplighting and office noise all day

atoms breaking heart (a passing spacecadet), Friday, 4 June 2010 21:37 (thirteen years ago) link

re: surgery padma was talking about, my sister has had that multiple times

...Funtown. (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 17:02 (thirteen years ago) link

how old was she when she first got the cysts?

harbl, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 17:06 (thirteen years ago) link

or whatever they are

harbl, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 17:06 (thirteen years ago) link

its not cysts, its uterine lining that comes out of your uterus and gets in the rest of your body

i dont know, mid-late 20s

...Funtown. (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 17:07 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah yeah i know, sorry

harbl, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 17:08 (thirteen years ago) link

i'm mid-late 20s :(

harbl, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 17:08 (thirteen years ago) link

I was mid twenties when I first started having weird pain. it really sucks. although it is genetic, nobody else in my fam has had it that I know of. I worry about roxy sometimes but hope she avoids this.

it is not cysts. it is just a tissue growing where it is not supposed to be - not really growing out of or seeping out of the uterus, just ALSO growing somewhere else in the body. the tissue swells causing pain and also wraps & spiderwebs around organs.

i had a few of those surgeries mentioned above and then had a presacral neurectomy where they cut the nerves at my spine that lead to pelvic pain. that one was the worst one to recover from because I had to relearn how to pee because the sensation to go felt different.

Kelsey Glamour (Nijoli), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 17:11 (thirteen years ago) link

my mom had it & had to have a hysterectomy. i am wondering if having kids has any influence on it either way but it seems like a lot of people have it who have never had kids.

harbl, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 17:13 (thirteen years ago) link

because it requires estrogen to grow, and estrogen drops during pregnancy, having a baby can make it shrink into not existing anymore since your level drops for 9 months. all the drugs they have come up with so far that make your levels drop are too dangerous to take for longer than 3 months at a time. having a baby would most likely rid my body of the disease, which is very weird.

Kelsey Glamour (Nijoli), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 17:15 (thirteen years ago) link

i am participating in a study right now to get better drugs/cure for this, btw

Kelsey Glamour (Nijoli), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 17:16 (thirteen years ago) link

that is weird, my mom had 3 and still had it. i don't wanna have any. i'm just gonna cross my fingers

harbl, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 17:29 (thirteen years ago) link

I close friend of mine had a hysterectomy at 27 because her endo was so bad. She had even tried chemo to get rid of it but it was completely debilitating and that was the last resort.

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 17:41 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah. The presacral things was a last resort for me. I would get stuck in the bathtub and not be able to stand up to get out.

harbl - did your mom have the endo before the kids or just after? was she relieved from pain during the pregnancy at least? that is sad!

Kelsey Glamour (Nijoli), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 18:20 (thirteen years ago) link

i dunno i think it was after. the hysterectomy was when i was like 22, 19 years after 3rd kid. i could be wrong. fwiw i have not experienced any symptoms, not even bad cramps.

harbl, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 18:33 (thirteen years ago) link

i really have no idea. i just never want to have my uterus removed, it didn't seem like fun.

harbl, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 18:35 (thirteen years ago) link

being newly single after a very long time, i've gotten plenty of dating/relationship advice, a lot of it conflicting. But a lot of it is of the "don't worry, it will just happen when you're least expecting it" variety. It seems like this type of thing is something that women get told a lot about various things...it just feels so passive.

sarahel, Monday, 21 June 2010 18:04 (thirteen years ago) link

Have personally told it to a lot of men too, tbh. Think this is more of a universal truth about trying to make your life run in directions that require the involvement of other people and/or chance opportunity.

the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Monday, 21 June 2010 18:08 (thirteen years ago) link

but compare it with what we're commonly told about looking for work - another example of something that requires the involvement of other people and/or chance opportunity? I'm not arguing the truth of it, because I obviously don't know.

sarahel, Monday, 21 June 2010 18:28 (thirteen years ago) link

My advice, as someone who was habitually single until recently, is just to make your life totally awesome. If you already like the life you have, it will be more fun every day AND make you a more interesting/engaged and happier person, which is a great set-up for potentially meeting and/or being attractive to another interesting and happy person.

Also, and you must already know this from yr recent events, never underestimate the pleasure of going to bed when YOU are tired, watching a movie of your choosing that no one criticizes, not worrying about food until YOU are hungry, getting up when you wake up and leaving the house at your leisure and not returning until you run out of fun things to do, and other delights of the single life.

the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Monday, 21 June 2010 18:30 (thirteen years ago) link

being not-single sounds shitty

Hans-Jörg Butt (harbl), Monday, 21 June 2010 18:32 (thirteen years ago) link

being not-single has a lot of enjoyable aspects

sarahel, Monday, 21 June 2010 18:35 (thirteen years ago) link

it's just interesting how advice/perspectives on love and romance differ from other things in American culture. But maybe not?

So far the most pragmatic advice I've gotten was the suggestion that I invest in a quality eyelash curler so that my eyes will appear larger and more "bambi-like"

sarahel, Monday, 21 June 2010 18:42 (thirteen years ago) link

That's completely bizarre.

the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Monday, 21 June 2010 18:43 (thirteen years ago) link

the theory is that by appearing more like a defenseless woodland creature it would activate the male protective instinct - or something like that.

sarahel, Monday, 21 June 2010 18:45 (thirteen years ago) link

Being not-single is a big adjustment for me, I complain about it rather a lot because my life before was built on being free to commit my time to all my friends and other hobby-ist activities like biking, reading for hours, being gone from home all day for days in a row for dance gigs or practices. I spent very little time actually relaxing at home, and I only involved other people in my activities when it was convenient for me.

This is your prerogative when you're single and childless but it does result in no one being there for you and you alone when you want them. I want someone to miss me, someday.

the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Monday, 21 June 2010 18:48 (thirteen years ago) link

Sorry, not trying to unleash any universal truths on anybody else with that last two lines. Just to say that my previous life was extremely busy, even over-scheduled, and possibly an extreme of independent. Would NEVER have gotten a pet, for instance, b/c it would need something from me and cramp my schedule.

the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Monday, 21 June 2010 18:53 (thirteen years ago) link

Would NEVER have gotten a pet, for instance, b/c it would need something from me and cramp my schedule.

Getting a pet was a frequent piece of advice - but I just don't have the time to devote, plus i don't like cleaning up poop.

sarahel, Monday, 21 June 2010 18:56 (thirteen years ago) link

I want to get a pet but schlepping a small poodle (what I'd get, I like a dog to be smarter than the other dogs) between countries, even with pet passport, or having to leave her for long stretches is a giant pain in the arse.

WHEN CROWS GO BAD (suzy), Monday, 21 June 2010 18:59 (thirteen years ago) link

offended that deer have been described here as defenseless

(roxymuzak) ((((d-.-b)))) (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 13:43 (thirteen years ago) link

I was almost attacked by a deer once. Had to run up a hill to escape, truly terrifying.

peacocks, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 21:19 (thirteen years ago) link

ps. what guys look that closely at your eyelashes?

pps. what guys are attracted to defenseless woodland creatures? ew

peacocks, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 21:21 (thirteen years ago) link

It's a well-known fact that deer can't run up hills. Always head for high ground.

the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 21:22 (thirteen years ago) link

Eyelash curlers scare me.

tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, 23 June 2010 04:23 (thirteen years ago) link

well, he couldn't see me anymore anyway.

peacocks, Wednesday, 23 June 2010 11:15 (thirteen years ago) link

because of eyelash curlers?

sarahel, Wednesday, 23 June 2010 20:22 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah he curled them the wrong way that poor, clumsy animal.

peacocks, Wednesday, 23 June 2010 20:33 (thirteen years ago) link

i've never owned or used an eyelash curler - they look too much like surgical tools

sarahel, Wednesday, 23 June 2010 20:35 (thirteen years ago) link

they pinch. and they put little bends in your eyelashes...i never could manage to get a curl instead of a series of bends.

JuliaA, Wednesday, 23 June 2010 20:50 (thirteen years ago) link

I always wondered that. They should call them eyelash crimpers.

the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Wednesday, 23 June 2010 21:06 (thirteen years ago) link

Some of them are horrible but I have a lightweight metal pair that are fine (and you can warm them with a hairdryer) - they shouldn't pinch. My eyelashes stick straight out but I look 100x more awake if I curl them.

Not the real Village People, Thursday, 24 June 2010 01:13 (thirteen years ago) link

you put on mascara afterwards and the bends become a curl

(roxymuzak) ((((d-.-b)))) (roxymuzak), Thursday, 24 June 2010 02:16 (thirteen years ago) link

So I've been on a few dates with this guy who is really awesome, and I click with well. As its so soon after the billshit I went thru, I obviously just want things to be fun and non committal.

...he has a gf in a compeltely open relationship (he's poly, basically, from what I can gather). I'm not put off by this - its all up front and everything - but I do feel weird.

I'm conflicted, truth be told. I just want casual fun, but I cant let go of that little nagging thought that says "but once you start to have fun you start to get attached and then the poly thing becomes a problem because its a bit of a dealbreaker"... and ARRRGHHH this is fucking doing my head in overthinking things.

I was just *enjoying the moment* all last week. Then reality checked me upside the head. FML.

C.R.E.P.E (Trayce), Thursday, 24 June 2010 02:19 (thirteen years ago) link

I dont know what to do.

C.R.E.P.E (Trayce), Thursday, 24 June 2010 02:20 (thirteen years ago) link

well, obviously it seems like what you want to do is have fun, feel desirable, and not get too attached to this guy. So, it seems like the question is, how to avoid getting too attached?

sarahel, Thursday, 24 June 2010 02:28 (thirteen years ago) link

this is gonna sound super negative and probably a bunch of ppl will disagree but imo you should quit while you're ahead: you've had some fun, end things now while it's all still good. the absolute truth of the matter is that casual sex funtimes NEVER EVER EVER last in 99.99999999999999999999999% of these situations. someone always gets more attached than the other. don't put yourself through the heartache so soon after the last one.

imo.

just1n3, Thursday, 24 June 2010 02:33 (thirteen years ago) link

also: the trick with eyelash curlers is not to clamp them too tightly - just a gentle pressure is sufficient, esp if you heat them for a few seconds first.

just1n3, Thursday, 24 June 2010 02:35 (thirteen years ago) link

I agree with Justine in regards to both cas sex and eyelash curlers.

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Thursday, 24 June 2010 03:44 (thirteen years ago) link

that was a really adorable sequencing of posts, just1n3

horseshoe, Thursday, 24 June 2010 05:06 (thirteen years ago) link

^_^

just1n3, Thursday, 24 June 2010 05:16 (thirteen years ago) link

<3 you gals.

C.R.E.P.E (Trayce), Thursday, 24 June 2010 05:38 (thirteen years ago) link

i just generally steer clear of anyone who is "poly" or in an "open relationship" because it tends to result in an unbearable amount of drama, and there's enough drama when it comes to simple one-on-one relationships as it is.

sarahel, Thursday, 24 June 2010 05:40 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah hell me too. When I first started hangin out with this guy he'd said his gf had moved out six months ago. I knew the vagu situ, so I made the (silly) assumption that they'd broken up. Apparently kind of sort of.. not.

And he's a poly type person regardless, and I'm not sure I'm up for the challenge. Prob a good thing: it'll stop me being dumb and getting too attached, hey? Sad though. He's a lovely guy.

C.R.E.P.E (Trayce), Thursday, 24 June 2010 05:52 (thirteen years ago) link

take the experience for what it was - helping you get back on the horse, so to speak. you needed some of your confidence back, and he's given that to you. that's a pretty awesome thing, and now it sounds like you've also made a good friend. bonus!

just1n3, Thursday, 24 June 2010 05:55 (thirteen years ago) link

otoh it can still hurt - confidence booster that it was - i think Laurel's advice is good here - focus on having an awesome life and doing stuff for yourself.

sarahel, Thursday, 24 June 2010 05:58 (thirteen years ago) link

Ya I got plenty else to be busy with tbh.

Such as having stinky boys moving back into my house and making a big mess! >:"|

C.R.E.P.E (Trayce), Thursday, 24 June 2010 06:06 (thirteen years ago) link

i don't know what that emoticon means, but good for you!

sarahel, Thursday, 24 June 2010 06:06 (thirteen years ago) link

It was a typo but it looks like a cranky hitler, haha!

C.R.E.P.E (Trayce), Thursday, 24 June 2010 06:20 (thirteen years ago) link

Any beauty regimen that involves heating up metal objects and placing them near hair just does not sound worth it to me. That and over thinking are two forces possibly keeping me from cas sex experiences.

peacocks, Thursday, 24 June 2010 18:42 (thirteen years ago) link

I don't mind hot objects near my hair, it can't feel anything anyway. Not a big fan of potentially scorching my eyeballs, though.

Agree w just1ne re the other thing.

the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Thursday, 24 June 2010 18:55 (thirteen years ago) link

"leave the party while you're still having fun" applies here in spades

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Thursday, 24 June 2010 20:07 (thirteen years ago) link

I think that unless you are also poly or are really seriously considering adopting the lifestyle, it's kind of a dead end to date a poly guy, even if he is lovely. There are so many issues to navigate if you want any chance of doing this without getting your feelings hurt, you know? It's kind of exhausting. Plus also, I think for a lot of guys (maybe not him, but pretty much every "monogamy is bogus, I am poly!" guy I have ever had any romantic interactions with), it's not about really believing in the poly lifestyle. It's just about getting as much no-strings-attached tail as possible.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Thursday, 24 June 2010 20:15 (thirteen years ago) link

well, you can say that for a lot of guys - poly or not - it's just about getting as much no-strings-attached tail as possible.

sarahel, Thursday, 24 June 2010 20:28 (thirteen years ago) link

Of course, but with the poly thing, the guy in question can cloak his garden-variety horniness in some sort of lofty ideology, which is what I object to more, to be honest.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Thursday, 24 June 2010 20:39 (thirteen years ago) link

honestly i have never met one of these people
do they tell you they're poly like, "there's something you should know about me..." or just like "hey i am in a polygamous relationship whatev"

guess it depends on the person, but i don't recall ever being told this in my life

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Thursday, 24 June 2010 20:50 (thirteen years ago) link

well, for me, it came up when he started kissing me, and i said, "wait, what? You have a girlfriend." And he said, "We have an open relationship."

sarahel, Thursday, 24 June 2010 20:57 (thirteen years ago) link

It was a long time ago, obv, but once after the moves were on and the guy was like, "Monogamy is just a tool to oppress the masses. I have a girlfriend! Let's bone!" and once after the boning was done and the guy was like, "So... I have a girlfriend but it's an open relationship so I know she'll be cool with it."

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Thursday, 24 June 2010 21:01 (thirteen years ago) link

oh, in my case it was the open relationship was the girlfriend's idea

sarahel, Thursday, 24 June 2010 21:02 (thirteen years ago) link

Like it was for real or the dude was just telling you that it was his girlfriend's idea?

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Thursday, 24 June 2010 21:03 (thirteen years ago) link

it was for real - it was her idea - because of that i came to believe that "open relationship" really meant, "You're not really doing it for me, but I don't want to break up with you just yet."

sarahel, Thursday, 24 June 2010 21:06 (thirteen years ago) link

i know one guy that's poly. he has a ldr with a girl who lives with her boyfriend, and then has fun from time to time with other ppl. i don't understand it, but it works for him, and he's a good guy.

i couldn't imagine dating someone who was poly. it would be way too much of a mindfuck for me, even if it was casual.

(i'm in the agreeing with justine camp)

JuliaA, Thursday, 24 June 2010 21:08 (thirteen years ago) link

huh
yeah it's not like i haven't gotten the wrong impression or been misled in the (distant) past, but no one has ever been so up front with me about it. i guess ultimately it's better than lying, right? all depends on what people are looking for.

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Thursday, 24 June 2010 21:12 (thirteen years ago) link

pretty much everything is better than lying.

sarahel, Thursday, 24 June 2010 21:13 (thirteen years ago) link

^^^^^^this

quincie, Thursday, 24 June 2010 22:02 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah in this instance im not worried for *now* because heck this is just casual shit and its only been going on 2 weeks and you know.

Its not a complete miserable wtf thing - it would be if this was a "hey I am married but we're all open and you can be my sidekick" - thats just weird. This is prob closer to "casual date seeing a few ppl" for both of us, but thats fine.

C.R.E.P.E (Trayce), Friday, 25 June 2010 00:07 (thirteen years ago) link

Still kind of very minorly odd for me tho.

C.R.E.P.E (Trayce), Friday, 25 June 2010 00:08 (thirteen years ago) link

i thought trayce's emoticon denoted a clothespin pinching the nose!!!!

(roxymuzak) ((((d-.-b)))) (roxymuzak), Friday, 25 June 2010 04:03 (thirteen years ago) link

Haw, I like that idea better! :D

C.R.E.P.E (Trayce), Friday, 25 June 2010 04:05 (thirteen years ago) link

miss you ladies!

roxymuzak, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:05 (thirteen years ago) link

just checking in

roxymuzak, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:05 (thirteen years ago) link

they changed the package design on Clairol Herbal Essences shampoo - now the bottle is easier to open.

sarahel, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:06 (thirteen years ago) link

i remember us discussing that before and thanks god. i hurt my cuticles on that bottle 100x

roxymuzak, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:07 (thirteen years ago) link

*thank

roxymuzak, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:07 (thirteen years ago) link

i once asked a dude friend what the greatest possible turn on in a woman was in his opinion, and his answer was "smelling like herbal essences." he went on to say that it "practically causes instant orgasm"

roxymuzak, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:09 (thirteen years ago) link

ps the dude was hot

roxymuzak, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:09 (thirteen years ago) link

in other hot news

how about this world cup

roxymuzak, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:09 (thirteen years ago) link

i switched to Pantene, but i'm really not completely satisfied.

and speaking of hair issues, David Duchovny had the best hair in Season 1 of X-files, and in later seasons it was not as cute.

sarahel, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:10 (thirteen years ago) link

ha, i have a guy turned on by the smell of herbal essences shampoo/conditioner, but i can't post it here, i'd have to tell in private.

sarahel, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:11 (thirteen years ago) link

Shrug. Lyfe. Recommended the Instead cup to a friend the other day, to solve a vacation-timing-related problem.

Haven't tried the IUD insert again with the Cytotec for dilation. Kind of putting it off tbh b/c I don't want to hear that I'm out of options.

Dying of heatstroke, waiting out the World Cup with great anticipation.

the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:13 (thirteen years ago) link

having boy problems
not wanting to have boy problems
have hangover
hangover is better than boy problems

sarahel, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:15 (thirteen years ago) link

email it if you want cause id probably enjoy reading it. imagining it involves the washing of pubes in herbal essences but that is probably not true. haw. xposts

i really want an IUD, but i dont want potential resultant problems

roxymuzak, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:16 (thirteen years ago) link

btw Pitor Hottie McHotterson is starting for Germany today.

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:19 (thirteen years ago) link

ENBB knows other details of the herbal essences guy saga, but not that part.

sarahel, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:20 (thirteen years ago) link

YES! I was hoping that it was part of that saga tbh.

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:22 (thirteen years ago) link

doubt that he reads this thread, but still ...

sarahel, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:23 (thirteen years ago) link

i would also like an iud, but i am pleased to report that i have had zero migraines since going off of hormonal bc, so that's a good thing.

what else. sad that i will be in roxy country while she is in chicago, but excited to go hiking and see nature. enjoyed world cup more before my team (mexico) was eliminated. sweaty. haven't thought about herbal essences since the 90s, but i do miss the old smell of pantene. new pantene isn't the same. i also regret throwing away my old shampoo archive. would smell again :(

thanks god
99% of my students say this when they mean "thank god" (gracias a dios, etc). "i thought i lost my USB but it was in my purse, thanks god."

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:23 (thirteen years ago) link

would the translation be "thanks to god"?

sarahel, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:24 (thirteen years ago) link

shampoo archive??

omg watching piotr hottie atm! ty again for the hottie recommendation, e

roxymuzak, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:25 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah, but they know to drop the preposition. they just keep plural thanks. just in case?

yeah, i had a little sad hoarder collection of old shampoos i used to use just in case they were discontinued and i wanted to smell them again. they were all discontinued/scents were changed and now i will never smell those smells again. it really does make me sad. nothing brings back memories like shampoo.

old pert plus, for example. also white rain with the red top and strawberry suave.

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:26 (thirteen years ago) link

oh man, and this other one i forget the name of, but it was in a yellow bottle and i used it when i was in colombia. now i will never smell it again. ;_;

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:27 (thirteen years ago) link

strawberry suave was great! i think my ex-bf used that for a while.

sarahel, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:28 (thirteen years ago) link

x-post to Roxy - You're welcome!

That said, I just noticed that he looks really small compared to the other guys and looked it up he's only 5'6". Sort of a bummer.

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:28 (thirteen years ago) link

I use TIGI oatmeal and honey shampoo and conditioner. It smells like oatmeal raisin and cinnamon cookies. I'm not normally one for food scents but it is so good.

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:29 (thirteen years ago) link

the other day i was having post leg-shaving itchiness and thought of this thread.

sarahel, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:29 (thirteen years ago) link

pert plus still exists, but it doesn't smell like it did when i used it and that is a shame
i also had a little bit of the original lever 2000, which smelled really good

i'm glad someone remembers strawberry suave RIP

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:30 (thirteen years ago) link

LL, I think a Jewish person I know says "thanks God", and I've always just mentally filled it in as "thanks be to G-d" or whatever -- basically I assume it's in translation and therefore doesn't bear the burden of making any literal sense.

the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:31 (thirteen years ago) link

I am always tempted to try this just because I love the bottle so much:

http://www.vermontcountrystore.com/browse/Home/Apothecary/Hair-Care/Gee-Your-Hair-Smells-Terrific/D/30100/P/1:100:1000:10070/I/f54234?evar3=BROWSE

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:32 (thirteen years ago) link

one of the reason's i don't like summer is because it requires sunscreen, and sunscreens generally smell bad and make my skin break out.

If I wasn't aware that it was a translation issue, I'd think it was a verb tense thing, like, "Thanks, God" like they are thanking god personally, or it could be third person singular with the pronoun dropped - like "one thanks god for something like this" - totally stream of consciousness thinking here

sarahel, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:34 (thirteen years ago) link

I remember strawberry Suave and GYHST quite well. As it turns out, GYHST smells pretty awful.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:34 (thirteen years ago) link

i almost never correct them when they say thanks god. why bother, it's not confusing to anyone and it's such a little thing. it's not like when the young lady in my class wrote about how we should all visit the beautiful bitches of guatemala or the girl who said she likes guys who are rapers.

oh and by the way, my skin is a MESS thanks to sunscreen. ugh. and i still have insane amts of freckles/sunspots.

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:35 (thirteen years ago) link

x-post OK good to know. I was sort of skeptical.

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:36 (thirteen years ago) link

enbb - yeah i noticed the camera had to go down like 6" when they were doing the national anthem and went by his face

also lol that he just stood there looking serious and was the only one not singing

roxymuzak, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:46 (thirteen years ago) link

post a pic of this guy!

also roxy - i emailed you about herbal essences guy

sarahel, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:48 (thirteen years ago) link

Oh we've posted pics. Check out recent additions to the WS thread.

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:54 (thirteen years ago) link

http://img221.imageshack.us/i/dsc0057kleinje5.jpg/

lol

roxymuzak, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:54 (thirteen years ago) link

Can I also just add that every time they mention Bastian Schweinsteiger I have a near uncontrollable urge to shout out "Basitan! Call my naaaaaaaame!"

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:56 (thirteen years ago) link

the WS thread takes wayyyyy too much time to load - c'mon ladies, indulge me!

sarahel, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:56 (thirteen years ago) link

http://img169.imageshack.us/i/dsc0130kleinqf0.jpg/

roxymuzak, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:56 (thirteen years ago) link

<3 thanks!!! <3

sarahel, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 18:58 (thirteen years ago) link

trying to find pic illustrating superiority of David D's hair in Season one, but found this

http://28.media.tumblr.com/6fmeZsLUrpeab5tb2xNuFdEGo1_500.png

sarahel, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 19:00 (thirteen years ago) link

Organix Nourishing Cocnout Milk Shampoo is my favorite shampoo, so luxurious! but it is expensive so I just buy the grapefruit flavor suave. There are currently no guys in my life to give instant orgasms to so

I went shopping Monday and got the first dress I have ever felt like fully accessorizing with. I got a matching belt and have shoes but freaking I need a purse and those brown sunglasses dammit! I've never felt this way about clothing before.

ps that guy is cuet. d d too obv.

peacocks, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 19:02 (thirteen years ago) link

time for teh sassy guy poll! (totally huge)

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1345/1384514917_4f032d54b3_b.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1181/1384521009_a69bc2d6e6_b.jpg

warmsherry, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 21:53 (thirteen years ago) link

i think at the time i voted for Mr. B, but now I'm more of a Mr. A girl.

sarahel, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 22:10 (thirteen years ago) link

oh piotr! so dashing on the field.
your sadness is my sadness.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 7 July 2010 22:11 (thirteen years ago) link

Mr. F

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 7 July 2010 22:12 (thirteen years ago) link

F. is for Friend
boyfriends come in and out of your life, but my best friend is someone i'll know for a long time!

warmsherry, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 22:29 (thirteen years ago) link

what season of x files are you on, sarahel? i think his hair gets good again iirc. so young and adorable in the first one for sure, though.

horseshoe, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 22:56 (thirteen years ago) link

also, ime pantene is evil and thins your hair! if that is not ye, then disregard but watch out imo!

horseshoe, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 22:57 (thirteen years ago) link

season 3 - and my hair is super-thick

sarahel, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 23:09 (thirteen years ago) link

pantene makes hair super dry, it's like pure detergent. herbal essences smells way too strong and not good imo

the girl with the butt tattoo (harbl), Wednesday, 7 July 2010 23:27 (thirteen years ago) link

Did anyone use Revlon Outrageous? That stuff smelled like perfume, and I loved it when I was in college.

Now I use conditioners to wash my hair, and all of it seems to smell too strong.

JuliaA, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 23:57 (thirteen years ago) link

Yes! I loved Outrageous.

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Wednesday, 7 July 2010 23:58 (thirteen years ago) link

Whole Foods has an unscented conditioner that I believe is appropriate for a no 'poo program. I'll check the brand when I get home.

I use a shampoo bar hand-crafted by free range hippies.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Thursday, 8 July 2010 00:02 (thirteen years ago) link

i like whole foods shampoo/conditioner. it took a while for my hair to get used to it because it doesn't strip much oil away but even the scented version is not that smelly.

the girl with the butt tattoo (harbl), Thursday, 8 July 2010 00:05 (thirteen years ago) link

My Proustian hair care was Body Shop's Rosemary Shampoo. The Kiehl's I use now does not smell as strong, but is similar. I seriously cannot remember ever using drugstore shampoo past No More Tears-type stuff. It's because my mother is a bargain barracuda and Minneapolis is Aveda HQ so we were in gallons of salon-sized Aveda shampoos etc starting when I was a teenager.

THIS BOOK EQUAL CONJOB (suzy), Thursday, 8 July 2010 00:07 (thirteen years ago) link

sincere lol at suzy's post

sarahel, Thursday, 8 July 2010 00:16 (thirteen years ago) link

omg totally forgot abt Outrageous! Hahaa. I used in for a bit a long time ago. Srsly can't deal w anything smelly now. Not even aveda :(

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Thursday, 8 July 2010 00:22 (thirteen years ago) link

My mom would seriously go to Cancer Society rummage sales and come back with these HUGE plastic jugs full of high-end shampoo - I think her first big score was a bunch of Paul Mitchell. The only shampoo we ever had that truly honked/was vile was anything AUSSIE-related, smell makes me shudder still.

THIS BOOK EQUAL CONJOB (suzy), Thursday, 8 July 2010 00:26 (thirteen years ago) link

Thanks Jenny!

Right now I'm using Suave conditioners because they're cheap, and they work fine but they smell so incredibly strong. Fragrances don't usually linger in my hair, but these do––today I smell like coconuts.

XP I used to love Aussie products! I used to like all sorts of super–scented crap.

JuliaA, Thursday, 8 July 2010 00:31 (thirteen years ago) link

If they made frankincense-scented shampoo I would buy gallons of it.

THIS BOOK EQUAL CONJOB (suzy), Thursday, 8 July 2010 00:39 (thirteen years ago) link

Oh for real

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Thursday, 8 July 2010 00:47 (thirteen years ago) link

hi ladies!

just1n3, Thursday, 8 July 2010 02:52 (thirteen years ago) link

Wait is Aussie a brand, or are you guys generalising about our shitty shampoos? =)

Love and Arugula (Trayce), Thursday, 8 July 2010 03:04 (thirteen years ago) link

It's a brand that's probably not Australian at all:

http://www.thefrugalmind.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/aussie2-300x245.jpg

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Thursday, 8 July 2010 03:19 (thirteen years ago) link

i love frankincense

roxymuzak, Thursday, 8 July 2010 03:24 (thirteen years ago) link

in fact does anyone have experience with mixing essential oils into shamp/conditioner?

roxymuzak, Thursday, 8 July 2010 03:24 (thirteen years ago) link

http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=157944&catid=10327

Julia, that's the kind of unscented conditioner I have used. I didn't love it, but I used it in conjunction with shampoo, so I can't speak to it as a c-wash conditioner.

Trayce, here is how the Aussie shampoo brand depicts your fellow citizens: as purple, hair-obsessed kangaroos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWIaMbw269g

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Thursday, 8 July 2010 03:48 (thirteen years ago) link

wow i just got back from the flaming lips show, which was awesome, and
i'm always amazed at the extent the flaming lips go to show how much they love vaginas
they really really love them! in a really good way often bordering on worship! imo!
makes me happy to have one tbh

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Thursday, 8 July 2010 04:33 (thirteen years ago) link

yyyeaahh Ive never seen that brand of hair products ANYWHERE in this country i dont think xpost.

Love and Arugula (Trayce), Thursday, 8 July 2010 05:03 (thirteen years ago) link

I had a roommate who used to put a bunch of essential oils into her shampoo. mostly rose and patchouli. I had another friend who made a rinse/spray thing to get beach hair any time that was honey, salt water and lemon juice. Pretty yummy smelling.

peacocks, Thursday, 8 July 2010 12:52 (thirteen years ago) link

salon selectives smells like candy and get nostalgic for high school when i smell it

Kelsey Glamour (Nijoli), Thursday, 8 July 2010 13:36 (thirteen years ago) link

halsa hair, discover your highlights
halsa hair, discover your glow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjxsg5L5b8g

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Thursday, 8 July 2010 13:41 (thirteen years ago) link

my mom used to use agree and i miss the smell of that too

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Thursday, 8 July 2010 13:42 (thirteen years ago) link

what is 'beach hair'?

c sharp major, Thursday, 8 July 2010 13:42 (thirteen years ago) link

Oh I loved the way Aussie products smelled way back when, but I also used to love Tea Rose perfumes and all kinds of stinky things.

the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Thursday, 8 July 2010 13:43 (thirteen years ago) link

Salon selectives hairspray was what I used to cover up the smoke smell when I was sneaking cigs in high school. I now associate it with Mad Dog hangovers and too many smokes.

quincie, Thursday, 8 July 2010 13:44 (thirteen years ago) link

is salon selectives the one that smelled like fake apple smell? pinkish coral bottle?

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Thursday, 8 July 2010 13:45 (thirteen years ago) link

Mad Dog hangovers and too many smokes.

― quincie, Thursday, July 8, 2010 1:44 PM (1 minute ago)

that is what I meant by "nostalgic for high school". hee hee hee. yeah. the bottle was pink and it was very fruity/candy

Kelsey Glamour (Nijoli), Thursday, 8 July 2010 13:46 (thirteen years ago) link

it's what your hair is like after the beach. it's easier to shape, smells good, looks cool and is maybe a little bit lighter.

peacocks, Thursday, 8 July 2010 13:46 (thirteen years ago) link

Beach hair is tousled, piecey, and messy and works best with wavy hair. Not such a great look on stick straight hair like mine.

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Thursday, 8 July 2010 13:47 (thirteen years ago) link

I have the waves, tbh

peacocks, Thursday, 8 July 2010 13:48 (thirteen years ago) link

beach hair is the first step on the short road to dreads for me!
(i have never let it get there tho! always break down and comb/wash after day 3 when camping/at a cottage w lake or sea).

my friend who is a hair stylist digs the salt-in-water 'hairspray' too

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Thursday, 8 July 2010 14:06 (thirteen years ago) link

Seems like it would be awfully drying?

the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Thursday, 8 July 2010 14:19 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah it probably is which is why my hair feels sooo soft and nice when I wash it the day after the beach.

peacocks, Thursday, 8 July 2010 14:46 (thirteen years ago) link

My hair is so gross at the beach! I have naturally curly hair and the beach makes it frizzy. I look like little orphan annie the second i step out on the sand.

Kelsey Glamour (Nijoli), Thursday, 8 July 2010 14:55 (thirteen years ago) link

i look like a sad drowned rat at the beach. my hair gets mad stringy and looks awful.

an outlet to express the dark invocations of (La Lechera), Thursday, 8 July 2010 14:56 (thirteen years ago) link

D:

peacocks, Thursday, 8 July 2010 15:05 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah so does mine but for a certain type of hair salt water can make it look pretty great.

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Thursday, 8 July 2010 15:06 (thirteen years ago) link

I mean, I might have that certain type of hair but I also might think my hair looks better than it does. Someone looking at me strutting around after a beach day might say "that girl is a mess, why doesn't she do something?!"

peacocks, Thursday, 8 July 2010 15:39 (thirteen years ago) link

nij, salon selectives makes me nostalgic for YOUR high school days

i was looking for some just a couple days ago and was sad to see it was not made anymore

roxymuzak, Thursday, 8 July 2010 15:40 (thirteen years ago) link

i remember the jingle - like you just stepped out of a salon, salon selectives!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vD5XpKSKhI&feature=related

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Thursday, 8 July 2010 15:46 (thirteen years ago) link

lol late-80s/early-90s no-layered wavey bobs... i knew thee well...

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Thursday, 8 July 2010 15:47 (thirteen years ago) link

Ha, yes. The quest for that hair style is why I kept getting terrible perms.

I get nostalgic for Revlon's Aquamarine shampoo sometimes, and once dear Julia bought me a bottle! I used it sparingly over like a year to make it last. :D

I always used to beg my parents to buy Prell (because it came in a cool tube and was GREEN!) and my mom always refused, citing its similarity to dish soap. I do remember Agree. I also remember when people called it "cream rinse" instead of "conditioner."

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Thursday, 8 July 2010 15:49 (thirteen years ago) link

oh cream rinse!
this makes me miss my mom

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Thursday, 8 July 2010 15:50 (thirteen years ago) link

Cream rinse and conditioner are two different things.

THIS BOOK EQUAL CONJOB (suzy), Thursday, 8 July 2010 15:52 (thirteen years ago) link

speaking of 90s
i am wearing a skort i bought at h&m for $5
the last time i even considered wearing a skort i was in high school
having a "can i get away with this at my age" dilemma

when in doubt though, my answer is usually yes until i decide no
would not wear it to work obvs , but i am on vacation so fuck it
i'm wearing a skort

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Thursday, 8 July 2010 15:54 (thirteen years ago) link

Saw some girl wearing a coral/orange skort with side buttons, on the subway yest. You'd think I would have done more of a double-take but I guess I'm getting used to hipster fashion repurposing, what with living on the L train now.

the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Thursday, 8 July 2010 15:56 (thirteen years ago) link

The way they're going lately, they'll be into quilted calico by fall. I mean it's too bad I got rid of any of that Little House on the Prairie stuff from junior high, I could sell it to Beacon's Closet for a mint.

the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Thursday, 8 July 2010 16:06 (thirteen years ago) link

like those bags i always see certain people carrying? they have a name, but i forget what it is

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Thursday, 8 July 2010 16:08 (thirteen years ago) link

OH, you mean the Veronica Bradley or wahtever her name is. That's not exactly what I was thinking of -- for whatever reason the VB line is a favorite of upper-middle class Long Island/Upper East Sidey girls who go to their family's summer cottage on the weekends. The same kind of girls who always have Elsa Peretti-for-Tiffany's necklaces. Whereas the hipster thing I'm anticipating is more of the straight '80s mauve-and-"country kitchen blue" stencil motif.

the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Thursday, 8 July 2010 16:12 (thirteen years ago) link

hahaha omg that would be hilarious
bring it on

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Thursday, 8 July 2010 16:13 (thirteen years ago) link

More Laura Ashley than Vera Bradley?

x-post lol

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Thursday, 8 July 2010 16:18 (thirteen years ago) link

In Jr High I had a corduroy blue and mauve floral print Laura Asley pants jumpsuit. It was God awful but I could actually sorta see some hipster fashion girl reclaiming that sort of thing.

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Thursday, 8 July 2010 16:19 (thirteen years ago) link

SEE?? lololol

the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Thursday, 8 July 2010 16:20 (thirteen years ago) link

Which would N be AGL imo. Just felt the need to clarify that.

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Thursday, 8 July 2010 16:20 (thirteen years ago) link

I think that "laura ashley" style has already hit central fl.

peacocks, Thursday, 8 July 2010 16:30 (thirteen years ago) link

or maybe it never left?

peacocks, Thursday, 8 July 2010 16:30 (thirteen years ago) link

i saw classic pleasted momjeans on modcloth recently

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Thursday, 8 July 2010 16:30 (thirteen years ago) link

i mean pleated

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Thursday, 8 July 2010 16:31 (thirteen years ago) link

lol I was just going to say that based on what I know of central florida I'm willing to bet that it never left.

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Thursday, 8 July 2010 16:31 (thirteen years ago) link

oops lol

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Thursday, 8 July 2010 16:31 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah it's already sort of back, what with the tan/brown lace-up boots everyone's been wearing for a year or two already. I just have this allergic reaction to them now, but I had a black pair in jr high that I thought were very Euro and sophisticated at the time. OH YEAH. But following on the heels of that existing trend, I can see the yoked jackets and quilted flannel calico making the wider scene this fall.

the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Thursday, 8 July 2010 16:33 (thirteen years ago) link

lol cannot believe this style has made a resurgence amongst the youngs
i am glad to be old enough to laugh in a self-reflective way at the peaks and troughs of their journeys of self-discovery through lol fashion

and hahaha i had never even heard of Veronica Bradley until i became friends this year with someone from a posh(ish) town in Long Island!

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Thursday, 8 July 2010 16:37 (thirteen years ago) link

Oh I stand corrected, it's VERA Bradley! ENBB for the win.

the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Thursday, 8 July 2010 16:38 (thirteen years ago) link

I bought my Mom one last year at her request that's how I know it's Vera. They're everywhere on LI and also in Boston among the girls of the type Laurel described. The bean necklace thing made me lol because it's SO OTM.

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Thursday, 8 July 2010 16:39 (thirteen years ago) link

;)

the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Thursday, 8 July 2010 16:40 (thirteen years ago) link

My mom and grandma LOVE VB.

peacocks, Thursday, 8 July 2010 16:52 (thirteen years ago) link

i have that salon selective ad lady's hairstyle - except with bangs

sarahel, Thursday, 8 July 2010 20:32 (thirteen years ago) link

No more Strawberry Suave? Oh noes!!

tokyo rosemary, Thursday, 8 July 2010 21:06 (thirteen years ago) link

I bought a Laura Ashley nightgown for the summer.

tokyo rosemary, Thursday, 8 July 2010 21:08 (thirteen years ago) link

also, i don't understand "beach hair" but maybe that's because i grew up near the Pacific Ocean, as opposed to the Atlantic?

sarahel, Thursday, 8 July 2010 21:30 (thirteen years ago) link

I got to know beach hair last week; rest assured it exists in the Mediterranean along with JELLYFISH.

THIS BOOK EQUAL CONJOB (suzy), Thursday, 8 July 2010 21:35 (thirteen years ago) link

suzy, you have such a glamorous life - you're like the Miss Jean Brodie of this thread.

sarahel, Thursday, 8 July 2010 21:45 (thirteen years ago) link

LOLLLLLLLLL, you can't be serious. Three-day press trip to Malta = most glam thing I've done all year.

THIS BOOK EQUAL CONJOB (suzy), Thursday, 8 July 2010 21:47 (thirteen years ago) link

most glam thing i've done all year = wear a leopard print sequined jacket i inherited from my grandmother to a speakeasy-themed bar where the cheapest drinks cost $11, then realized that my bar tab was not only more than i've ever paid at a bar, but more than i've ever paid for a meal.

sarahel, Thursday, 8 July 2010 21:49 (thirteen years ago) link

Gah. Besides, the character of Jean Brodie was three things I'm not: bitter, old, a fascist. This is a book people toss around references for and I'm never quite sure if they've bothered to read it.

THIS BOOK EQUAL CONJOB (suzy), Thursday, 8 July 2010 21:52 (thirteen years ago) link

i don't know squat about jean brodie, but your life seems pretty glam to me

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Thursday, 8 July 2010 21:59 (thirteen years ago) link

xp - yeah, i think i was thinking of the author, rather than the character.

sarahel, Thursday, 8 July 2010 22:00 (thirteen years ago) link

Had first experience with hair dye last night and now my shower is all purple. I tried cleaning it immediately and it didn't come out. Will it ever go away?

peacocks, Tuesday, 13 July 2010 13:52 (thirteen years ago) link

what kind of dye?

sarahel, Tuesday, 13 July 2010 19:42 (thirteen years ago) link

um... the kind from walgreens. lo'real? dark brown.

peacocks, Tuesday, 13 July 2010 20:28 (thirteen years ago) link

It will probably fade eventually. You could try those Mr. Clean Magic Erasers on it - they are fairly miraculous when it comes to cleaning showers/tubs.

Jaq, Tuesday, 13 July 2010 20:31 (thirteen years ago) link

it might take a bit of scrubbing and fairly strong cleansers, but permanent dye does come out.

but your purple stains reminded me of when i graduated from high school, i tried to dye my hair purple with Manic Panic (which involved a trip to the nearest city to purchase, because such things were not sold in the town where i grew up). Probably because my hair is really thick and dry, it did nothing to my hair, but my hands ended up the color of Grimace from the McDonald's ads, so I wore gloves to graduation. I think it was 90 degrees out.

sarahel, Tuesday, 13 July 2010 20:32 (thirteen years ago) link

It always fades over time, in my experience.

Noise Pictorial Works Juvenile Fiction (Abbott), Tuesday, 13 July 2010 20:32 (thirteen years ago) link

it fades, but it doesn't really fade back to white, or whatever color your fixtures are

sarahel, Tuesday, 13 July 2010 20:36 (thirteen years ago) link

What I find on tile/enamel/grout is it's the soap scum that's turned purple, fiberglass/plastic stain directly.

Jaq, Tuesday, 13 July 2010 20:41 (thirteen years ago) link

I once got a friend to dye my hair blue w/ Manic Panic and he did not wear gloves and the following day, had to go to work at the candy store (I know, right?) with blue hands.

I have only ever used wash-out dye at home, and that always came out eventually. Good luck, peacocks.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Tuesday, 13 July 2010 20:42 (thirteen years ago) link

I definitely wore gloves while doing the dye-ing but I still managed to make a mess. It was my friend's hair and I got a bunch of purple on her ears and forehead and my forearms which all came out pretty fast. I'll try the magic erasers!

I bet you looked classy in gloves, were they fancy ones or winter ones? I used to wear dress gloves or laced cuff socks when I was 5 to look more elegant on outings.

peacocks, Tuesday, 13 July 2010 20:43 (thirteen years ago) link

they were dress gloves. If you're talking about an extensive area of stain, be sure to get at least one package of the magic erasers - they really don't last that long.

sarahel, Tuesday, 13 July 2010 20:46 (thirteen years ago) link

cooool. Yes, good idea!

peacocks, Tuesday, 13 July 2010 20:47 (thirteen years ago) link

but you might be better off using a concentrated amount of comet or bleach and just use the magic erasers on the worst stains.

sarahel, Tuesday, 13 July 2010 20:48 (thirteen years ago) link

For getting rid of stains I have good luck dampening the area, and then dumping a ton of Comet cleanser on there, and letting it sit until I remember I did that & need to go back & clean it up (usually a few hours). The advantage of this solution is it is hella cheap. Since it is a tub it will also be easy.

Noise Pictorial Works Juvenile Fiction (Abbott), Tuesday, 13 July 2010 20:52 (thirteen years ago) link

pretty sure I have used Abbott's method and it works

sarahel, Tuesday, 13 July 2010 20:52 (thirteen years ago) link

I used to clean my guinea pigs' cages that way. It got rid of everything.

Noise Pictorial Works Juvenile Fiction (Abbott), Tuesday, 13 July 2010 20:53 (thirteen years ago) link

I think my problem is that I have invested solely in all natural home cleaners.

peacocks, Tuesday, 13 July 2010 20:59 (thirteen years ago) link

Comet is basically powdered bleach + fine sand. Dishwasher detergent (I use the gel kind) also works great for this, due to the chlorine content.

I am easily entertained/fascinated by the magic eraser - no chemicals, just a billion scrubby microfibers.

Jaq, Tuesday, 13 July 2010 21:00 (thirteen years ago) link

xp - haha - i have too since my ex moved out, but there's still some comet and simple green left over. he was really particular about cleaning products in terms of maximum efficiency

sarahel, Tuesday, 13 July 2010 21:00 (thirteen years ago) link

i like the method cleaners because they smell nice

sarahel, Tuesday, 13 July 2010 21:01 (thirteen years ago) link

so true - I use that mint window stuff on everything I can. I cleaned the linoleum with it though and the cats went nuts thinking the whole floor was catnip.

Jaq, Tuesday, 13 July 2010 21:03 (thirteen years ago) link

I love the vision of this "THE FLOOR IS CATNIP!"

peacocks, Tuesday, 13 July 2010 21:04 (thirteen years ago) link

That sounds like comedy gold!

Noise Pictorial Works Juvenile Fiction (Abbott), Tuesday, 13 July 2010 21:04 (thirteen years ago) link

I will video next time :)

Jaq, Tuesday, 13 July 2010 21:05 (thirteen years ago) link

I use pretty intensely powerful dye (elumen, I go candy apple red) and I have found Scrubbing Bubbles cleaner will clean the tub well, FYI.

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Tuesday, 13 July 2010 22:20 (thirteen years ago) link

I dyed my hair with Loreal Feria violet black the other night, forgetting how violet the undertones are. And that my regrowth is silver. Haw. I now have Very Purple Roots and black hair. It looks kind of funky, but I'd rather deep red than purple!

Gumbercules (Trayce), Wednesday, 14 July 2010 01:01 (thirteen years ago) link

i googled elumen and found this

http://files.vancepublishing.com/CcmsFile-33181/Elumen.jpg

roxymuzak, Wednesday, 14 July 2010 06:56 (thirteen years ago) link

woah.

Gumbercules (Trayce), Wednesday, 14 July 2010 08:29 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah, Elumen is nuts!

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Wednesday, 14 July 2010 11:56 (thirteen years ago) link

that looks awesome

i am getting my hair cut tomorrow! for the first time in months and months, since hangin w my friend the hairdresser on the west coast, so, with a new stylist eeek.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 14 July 2010 12:51 (thirteen years ago) link

I got my hair cut on saturday and my ex bf's mom was there. I had to break up with her. :/

peacocks, Wednesday, 14 July 2010 18:11 (thirteen years ago) link

Oof. That's a tough one.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Wednesday, 14 July 2010 18:17 (thirteen years ago) link

xp - kinda glad i no longer have the obligation to deal some of my ex bf's family members tbh

sarahel, Wednesday, 14 July 2010 18:36 (thirteen years ago) link

I need that Elumen red. I would love to go back to the red bangs again. The bonus of grey hair is, you can dye it insane colours, and dont need to bleach!

Gumbercules (Trayce), Thursday, 15 July 2010 00:14 (thirteen years ago) link

Hm Speaking of, I need a haircut and I'm reluctant to go to my usual place cos the new chick who did my hair last month or so did a shite job and I hate it.

Gumbercules (Trayce), Thursday, 15 July 2010 00:15 (thirteen years ago) link

You should not go back if you're getting shite haircuts there.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Thursday, 15 July 2010 00:27 (thirteen years ago) link

speaking of hair, mine is STILL growing out! it's been like a million years.

horseshoe, Thursday, 15 July 2010 00:28 (thirteen years ago) link

Only the last one was. Usually they do a great job - i think its the fact I'm trying to grow out a short fringe. Well, har this thread has made me book in for a haircut after work today anyway. And I think I'll get some bright red streaks done.

Gumbercules (Trayce), Thursday, 15 July 2010 00:30 (thirteen years ago) link

Can you request a different stylist? Or request that you not get the one who did a bad job?

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Thursday, 15 July 2010 00:33 (thirteen years ago) link

I just bought my very first set of matching, grown-up dishes. They are all wrapped up and we're moving soon, but I unwrapped on of the mugs and I keep going into the kitchen to fondle it in awed reverence.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Thursday, 15 July 2010 00:34 (thirteen years ago) link

aw!

horseshoe, Thursday, 15 July 2010 00:35 (thirteen years ago) link

Trayce, I buy it off eBay (in the past) or amazon (lately) bc technically it's only for sale to hairdressers. I bleach my hair, use Elumen Prepare, then rinse & stick elumen RR@all on my head. After a base coat or two it's pretty much permanent - ever so slightly lighter after 3 weeks, having freshly bleached my hair prior. A delight.
I am pretty sure it's organic too!

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Thursday, 15 July 2010 00:35 (thirteen years ago) link

xp They're blue! And from reputable purveyor of household goods Crate and Barrel! I felt like an NYT Style Section profilee as I stood there farting around on my iPhone waiting for the C&B employee to carefully wrap up all my new dishes.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Thursday, 15 July 2010 00:37 (thirteen years ago) link

I can see the headline now. "Trend Watch: White People Are Buying Dishes from Crate and Barrel after Carefully Researching Other Options on the Internet."

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Thursday, 15 July 2010 00:38 (thirteen years ago) link

haha i used to look longingly at the windows of the Crate and Barrel on North Ave. i get it.

horseshoe, Thursday, 15 July 2010 00:40 (thirteen years ago) link

The picture with the article will be me cradling my mug and staring pensively out the window.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Thursday, 15 July 2010 00:41 (thirteen years ago) link

FFM: sounds good! Never seen it here, though I sometimes get salon level stuff from hairdresser suppliers, where you have to mix with the 60vol or whatever. Mostly I just go to the salon and let them do it tho: I'm crap at doing foils.

Gumbercules (Trayce), Thursday, 15 July 2010 00:42 (thirteen years ago) link

The picture with the article will be me cradling my mug and staring pensively out the window.

― sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Wednesday, July 14, 2010 8:41 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i can see it! the article writes itself, really.

horseshoe, Thursday, 15 July 2010 00:43 (thirteen years ago) link

i went to Target yesterday, and they sell Magic Eraser sponges that attach to mops!

sarahel, Friday, 16 July 2010 17:57 (thirteen years ago) link

HOLY.

peacocks, Friday, 16 July 2010 18:13 (thirteen years ago) link

it made for efficient cleaning of the shower - though i regret having to report that it did not do so well on the tub - the walls of the shower are a different material.

sarahel, Friday, 16 July 2010 18:32 (thirteen years ago) link

i still believe these really are made of magic. industrial and slightly evil magic, but magic nonetheless. i need to buy new ones.

i also need a magical attitude adjustment about this town and guys, i mean, men. gotta shift out of comfort zone and try not to hate it, or, yknow, run away from home, lol...

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Saturday, 17 July 2010 13:29 (thirteen years ago) link

what attitude needs adjusting?

sarahel, Saturday, 17 July 2010 19:38 (thirteen years ago) link

the one where I am really just unfairly misanthropic when it comes to other socializing possibilities in this town

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Saturday, 17 July 2010 20:07 (thirteen years ago) link

are there events, places, things that seem interesting but you're skeptical about, or is it just that it feels like there's nothing worth doing outside of what you already do/where you regularly go?

sarahel, Saturday, 17 July 2010 20:08 (thirteen years ago) link

on the subject of hair dye - i quit dying my hair after almost 20 years a few years ago - i occasionally miss it, because my hair is a pretty boring shade of brown, but it makes my skin look better coloring-wise.

sarahel, Saturday, 17 July 2010 20:19 (thirteen years ago) link

I started again recently after about five dye-free years but went one shade lighter than the colour I used to use.

the phantom flâneur flinger (suzy), Saturday, 17 July 2010 20:26 (thirteen years ago) link

i've noticed a lot of women do this as they get older - dye hair in lighter shades - like my mom dyes her hair light brown, which i think is weird because her natural hair color is dark brown/almost black - is it a skin tone thing?

sarahel, Saturday, 17 July 2010 20:29 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah total skin tone thing bc skin tone needs more 'warming up' as we get older. Like I know older ladies who stopped wearing black even bc it started making them look washed out.

I really need to get my hair fixed too right now, along w the bad haircut. and get dif make-up bc I am summer darker/pinker.. And teeth cleaned. This never happens to me - feel like I'm falling apart!

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Saturday, 17 July 2010 20:41 (thirteen years ago) link

xp - yeah the first thing - things to do, so many of them, but my skepticism + an often-unexpected shyness needs to take a hike.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Saturday, 17 July 2010 20:44 (thirteen years ago) link

Like I know older ladies who stopped wearing black even bc it started making them look washed out.

what a sad thought - i hope these ladies were thin/slender at least ...

sarahel, Saturday, 17 July 2010 20:45 (thirteen years ago) link

xp - maybe find a friend that is also interested in said things, or at least is willing to say, "WTF - if it's horrible or lame at least I'll have a good story to tell" to go with you?

sarahel, Saturday, 17 July 2010 20:53 (thirteen years ago) link

They started wearing dark brown instead! True stories!

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Saturday, 17 July 2010 20:57 (thirteen years ago) link

okay, that's not so sad.

sarahel, Saturday, 17 July 2010 20:58 (thirteen years ago) link

It's funny bc I am usually that friend! I do go to many dif places and things - I just don't nec socialize. Need to bring along my more outgoing talk-to-anyone friends and re-learn that skill.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Saturday, 17 July 2010 21:02 (thirteen years ago) link

if i lived near you rrrobyn i would totally be the talk-to-anyone friend! i was shy once, so it is totally possible to learn or re-learn that skill.

sarahel, Saturday, 17 July 2010 21:05 (thirteen years ago) link

a good way to start is at a bar or party where everyone is drinking/drunk, because if you embarrass yourself, or feel embarrassed in the slightest you can always blame it on alcohol, or at least, it is much more likely that the other people won't remember

sarahel, Saturday, 17 July 2010 21:09 (thirteen years ago) link

Wld kiw u for sure - yeah my talk-to-anyone friends all moved away or now have boyfriends, which has changed things. I used to be the get a little drunk, talk to guys, get asked out girl. and then sthing happened, like feeling too old or some crap. But when in sf or nyc all's well on that front. I maybe should just act like in on vacation all the time haha.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Saturday, 17 July 2010 21:18 (thirteen years ago) link

xpost/I used to wear a lot more red than I do now but that's the only 'tone-down' I can think of that really applies (the hair colour difference is minimal and I've been covering grey since I was 19, so whatevs). As far as the aging process goes, I have good genes and a grandmother who seems to have left me her legs (she could go bare in above-the-knee skirts up to age 70, srsly) and her cheekbones. When I am older it is going to be very difficult to give up the dark hair part of the very dark hair/very blue eyes combo.

In other news, yesterday my new editor gave me best thing ever - soon MAC are doing new lines in tribute to Disney villains soon and I am therefore rocking the Cruella de Vil lipstick tube containing a colour called HEARTLESS. Launches late September: http://www.temptalia.com/mac-disney-venomous-villains-collection

the phantom flâneur flinger (suzy), Saturday, 17 July 2010 21:19 (thirteen years ago) link

totally having a "all my friends are in relationships and i'm not" bout of glumness now - but, i just got out of a really long relationship less than a year ago, so i feel like it's my turn to feel like that or something ...

but yeah, the "on vacation" thing - seems like it's a concern about consequences or self-image or i dunno

sarahel, Saturday, 17 July 2010 21:22 (thirteen years ago) link

Haha yeah i have some issues there and re: permanency

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Saturday, 17 July 2010 21:35 (thirteen years ago) link

I'm thinking about going dark, or darker at least, in terms of hair color come fall. I've done it before but never been totally sure if I liked it or not. Kind of feeling the idea now though tbh.

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Saturday, 17 July 2010 21:49 (thirteen years ago) link

how is when you go gray genetically determined? More precisely, is there a simple way of knowing this based on looking at family members or is it more complicated?

sarahel, Sunday, 18 July 2010 02:00 (thirteen years ago) link

My parents were barely grey in their 40s but I was rapidly greying in my 20s and fully so by my mid 30s :( I still have nfi how.

Gumbercules (Trayce), Sunday, 18 July 2010 02:07 (thirteen years ago) link

(tho I suspect stress/booze may have added to it)

Gumbercules (Trayce), Sunday, 18 July 2010 02:08 (thirteen years ago) link

huh. i'm in my mid-30s and have no gray hair - my mom started going gray in her early 40s, and my dad didn't do so until his early 60s, but it sounds like this means nothing

sarahel, Sunday, 18 July 2010 02:09 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah I always wondered too, but I sis read somewhere that (for eg) heavy druggers/drinkers go grey fast cos of the stress on the body, erm, heh I wonder if thats why i did :(

Gumbercules (Trayce), Sunday, 18 July 2010 03:22 (thirteen years ago) link

I DID read, guh.

Gumbercules (Trayce), Sunday, 18 July 2010 03:22 (thirteen years ago) link

Data point: I def fell into the heavy substance user category for my 20s plus a few years on either side and I'm 37 and just starting to get enough gray hairs to make it worth my while to color. And it's prob not as noticeable as I think it is.

I always wanted to be the kind of woman who refuse to dye her gray hair but I'm going gray in this washed out, sad way and I guess I am more vain than I realized.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Sunday, 18 July 2010 03:46 (thirteen years ago) link

i've not been a heavy substance abuser and i'm getting a lot of white hairs in my 20s (can't really call it going grey yet) - apparently my grandmother was fully white-headed by her mid-thirties so i've been assuming i have that to look forward to. But it did start when i was emotionally pretty stressed. I'm hoping that if I can keep calm and restrict the stress to small bursts i'll end up with just one white streak rather than depressing salt-and-pepper. (my mother had white streaks like highlights when i was a kid)

oligopoly golightly (c sharp major), Sunday, 18 July 2010 09:46 (thirteen years ago) link

i don't have any grey hairs, but every rare once in a while a lone white one appears. i wonder what will happen re: that one day - maybe i will be one of those older ladies who tint their white hair platinum blonde! rad. but yeah my natural quite dark hair colour has dulled out a bit in the past couple of years, plus the summer further dulls it. plus colour is kinda fun! going to go a warm brown-red (as prescribed by 'the good hairstylist' who has been out of town for two months) :)

for all my whare i go meet nice mans, i ended up having a really nice time hanging with newish guy friend yesterday. we have an affinity. not letting it make me nervous, not jumping any guns...

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Sunday, 18 July 2010 15:11 (thirteen years ago) link

My mother went gray early––she had visible grays starting in her 20s, and was completely gray by 40. She was a pretty, steely gray then. Now her hair is completely white.

The way my hair is looking, it seems like it might just go white, though I'll most probably be salt and pepper for a while before that. I can't imagine my hair completely turning gray in the next four years. I don't dye it yet, but I will have to see how it looks when it's more heavily transitional. For now, anyway, I'm still mostly brunette. Or so I like to think.

I was never much with substance abuse, but I've got plenty of stress, unfortunately.

XP yay for enjoying your time with newish guy friend, without putting pressure on any of it mentally. :-)

JuliaA, Sunday, 18 July 2010 15:37 (thirteen years ago) link

I have about a dozen white hairs that I just pluck out. My coworker says 'nooo, ten more will grow back in their place' but she also wonders what would happen if an IUD floated out of your uterus and into your body.

tokyo rosemary, Sunday, 18 July 2010 22:56 (thirteen years ago) link

what would happen if an IUD floated out of your uterus and into your body? The image reminds me of those garbage barges that just float around the ocean...or the big piles of garbage that also float around the ocean, just not on barges

sarahel, Sunday, 18 July 2010 23:07 (thirteen years ago) link

ut she also wonders what would happen if an IUD floated out of your uterus and into your body.

It always startles me when an adult female friend says or misunderstands something fundamental about ones own body. In my early 20s a friend of mine shuffled up to me one day and whispered "can you like, actually go to the toilet when you're wearing a tampon?" She'd been reluctant to use one as she thought it'd come out, or get in the way, or something.

Gumbercules (Trayce), Sunday, 18 July 2010 23:30 (thirteen years ago) link

wau.

JuliaA, Sunday, 18 July 2010 23:32 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah that was kind of my reaction. How can you get to yr 20s and not know how a tampon works? :/

Gumbercules (Trayce), Monday, 19 July 2010 01:06 (thirteen years ago) link

I have a pretty good grey streak in the middle of the left side of my head. It started when I was about 15 and friends in school used to pull the greys out but now when people see it they are like "cooooool!" I've never dyed my hair and don't plan on it.

My dad had all white hair by the time he was 50. My mom has always dyed her hair so I don't know but she HAS done the thing where she gets more and more blonde as she gets older. She used to dye her hair dark red, and her natural color is plain ol' brown. As for wearing different colors, she tans really well and is outside a lot now because she's retired so she can still wear black and look OK I guess.

I just got out of being in 2 / 3 consecutive relationships for 5 years. Not that long when put into persepective, but I haven't had to worry about being single for my entire 20's and now I don't really know what to do. I went to a punk show by myself Friday and I only knew one other person there. I talked to some dudes but it got boring so I left and fell asleep watching Arrested Development at my friend's house :/

peacocks, Monday, 19 July 2010 14:40 (thirteen years ago) link

That sounds like a perfectly reasonable way to spend a Friday night to me.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Monday, 19 July 2010 14:47 (thirteen years ago) link

It was certainly fun and reasonable! But was weird talking to guys I didn't know. I felt like I maybe should have been trying harder to flirt or talk people up or something.

peacocks, Monday, 19 July 2010 14:57 (thirteen years ago) link

Man, fuck that!

I found that one of the best things about biking to things, weather permitting, was that no matter how inconsequential a time I had at The Actual Thing, I never, EVER felt like it was a waste of my time if I got a nice pedal out of it. Night rides, warm breezes, seeing funny things and viewing views that no one else is there to see at that moment -- this is a great kind of freedom and the pleasure of it really cut me loose from all other expectations.

the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Monday, 19 July 2010 15:03 (thirteen years ago) link

i drove to the grocery store this morning and i saw some people riding bikes and i wanted to ride a bike so bad even though it's so hot. but i haven't ridden mine in over a year. one i sort of broke (temporarily) and it needs work. and i won't have health insurance until next month. fwiw i can't wait to have gray hair but i have blonde hair so i'm not gonna notice it until i'm old.

the girl with the butt tattoo (harbl), Monday, 19 July 2010 15:07 (thirteen years ago) link

Riding bikes to Activities is really fun and I should do it more often. I walk almost everywhere and if I'm feeling down after work or something the walk home gets me into a better mood.

The thing (actually Saturday, not Friday) was that having a bf became a sort of barrier and I felt exposed without a person standing next to me that I could make off hand comments to or laugh at things with. I'm getting over that though! Hopefully soon that feeling of exposure will be more like freedom.

peacocks, Monday, 19 July 2010 15:20 (thirteen years ago) link

Sometimes going to things alone means that you'll be that person who's hanging out by herself, smiling and listening or watching the action but not obviously being the center of something. So what? That's okay too. It did give me some food for thought re what things I was really going to enjoy in a focused way, and rule out some things that were only interesting if I went with a friend. That's okay too.

Plus on the off chance that you DO start talking to someone or you hate the event or w/e, you are FREE TO DO WHATEVER YOU WANT. Go home. Go to the afterparty. Kiss someone. Meet some people who seem cool and accept their invitation to grab a burger after the show. You know? Circulate, chat with casual acquaintances, don't have to explain to anyone where you are or where you'll be in 20 minutes, or plan to meet up again later, or anything. It's really pretty awesome.

the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Monday, 19 July 2010 15:25 (thirteen years ago) link

NB: I have been known to go to shows where I knew no one and no one talked to me but I knew I'd like the band so I took a book and read until they started.

This is by all definitions totally lame. But spend your time the way you WANT to spend it, right? And I want to be reading.

the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Monday, 19 July 2010 15:26 (thirteen years ago) link

again, GREAT idea! I don't think reading is ever lame.

peacocks, Monday, 19 July 2010 15:31 (thirteen years ago) link

I never really learned to cycle as a kid - ok, I did have a bike when I was 7, but I was too scared of falling off to go anywhere on it; haven't touched one since about 8 or 9 - it but it would be a convenient way of getting around now.

Wish I knew someone of similar height whose bike I could borrow in the hope of finding out whether I might ever actually be safe using the thing without spending (much) money.

atoms breaking heart (a passing spacecadet), Monday, 19 July 2010 15:37 (thirteen years ago) link

thrift stores always have cheap bikes! Garage sales too.

peacocks, Monday, 19 July 2010 15:42 (thirteen years ago) link

Or you could steal borrow one that someone left unlocked and unattended.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Monday, 19 July 2010 16:25 (thirteen years ago) link

I have come to a place of acceptance w/ my preference for walking/public transit over biking as a way to get around. I tried to be a Bike Person, and while I did pretty well with a bike as my main mode of transpo when I lived in college towns, I'm a big old chicken when it comes to any real urban riding. I did fine when I lived in a quieter 'hood and could ride side streets to work (and had a job that was pretty close to my apt. and where arriving all sweatified from riding a bike there was okay) but now that I have a grown up, business casual lawyer job and live in a very busy area (where like three bikers in four months were killed by traffic a couple of years ago), I have decided to let that whole bike riding thing go, and I am very happy w/ that decision.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Monday, 19 July 2010 16:29 (thirteen years ago) link

spacecadet, does your council offer bike training? my council's bike training scheme will lend people bikes for the duration of the 2hr training session - it might be worth seeing if yours does as well? I learnt to ride a bike at age 24 so signed up for bike training to make sure i wasn't doing everything wrong, it was pretty useful.

i like riding my bike about the city but pretty much every trip will involve some kind of stuck-behind-a-bus/undercut-by-a-motorcycle/badly-rolled-up-jeans-caught-in-chain/shouted-at-by-with-driver type incident of screaming terror. but it's kind of balanced out by the bits where it's all joy!

oligopoly golightly (c sharp major), Monday, 19 July 2010 16:41 (thirteen years ago) link

C'mon, I've gone weeks, even months without any terror whatsoever!

I'm not saying everyone's gotta love biking or w/e but don't scare her off before she even starts!

the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Monday, 19 July 2010 16:54 (thirteen years ago) link

I am just offering the example of contended self-acceptance if it turns out for spacecadet that riding a bike is not for her.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Monday, 19 July 2010 16:58 (thirteen years ago) link

I found that one of the best things about biking to things, weather permitting, was that no matter how inconsequential a time I had at The Actual Thing, I never, EVER felt like it was a waste of my time if I got a nice pedal out of it. Night rides, warm breezes, seeing funny things and viewing views that no one else is there to see at that moment -- this is a great kind of freedom and the pleasure of it really cut me loose from all other expectations.

― the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Monday, July 19, 2010 11:03 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

THIS! Freeeedom! :D

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Monday, 19 July 2010 17:05 (thirteen years ago) link

oh i was trying to say that there is a lot of terror but the bliss of being on a bike outweighs it - i think i would feel really bad about my biking, esp the learning period, if i were led to believe that it was supposed to be all joy and freedom and that most people didn't have moments where all thought in their brain was replaced with the word BUS in red capitals.

oligopoly golightly (c sharp major), Monday, 19 July 2010 17:34 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah, fair enough to Jenny & C#. I think maybe I'm unusually unconcerned about my physical safety -- there's a spike of adrenaline when something bad seems to be happening, but afterward I forget about it and somehow I just don't feel like The Bad Thing can happen to me. Which is clearly statistically false because Bad Things happen to SOMEbody, but it just doesn't sink in or seem important.

the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Monday, 19 July 2010 17:37 (thirteen years ago) link

i really try to avoid the major bus routes... i'm sure i would spend a few months in terror learning how to bike right in manhattan. i spent a few months in terror learning how to bike in montreal and now a lot of it is total comfort-zone (except semi-suburban route-to-highway busy ridic bus-route streets. fuck those.)

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Monday, 19 July 2010 17:38 (thirteen years ago) link

Most of the worries of urban riding where I am are cars that think you should be on the sidewalk (so they honk and yell at you) and having to cross 4 lanes of traffic to turn left. My style of riding, however (if you could call it a style?), is to take as many back roads and neighborhood streets as possible no matter how indirect. That always leads to the kind of time Laurel talks about, which is the best time.

peacocks, Monday, 19 July 2010 17:40 (thirteen years ago) link

having a bf became a sort of barrier and I felt exposed without a person standing next to me that I could make off hand comments to or laugh at things with.

very true - otoh a friend can also be that person - and you no longer have to deal with a bf that wants to go home earlier than you do, or is tired and feeling a bit anti-social but not saying anything out of politeness and potentially something to resent you for at a later date.

sarahel, Monday, 19 July 2010 19:12 (thirteen years ago) link

oh, and I was at a show Saturday night, and this guy I sorta know said it was sad that I didn't know how to ride a bicycle, so I think he's going to teach me.

sarahel, Monday, 19 July 2010 19:27 (thirteen years ago) link

oh my!

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Monday, 19 July 2010 19:33 (thirteen years ago) link

that will be cute and there will be touching!

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Monday, 19 July 2010 19:34 (thirteen years ago) link

he was pretty wasted when he offered, so I'm not counting on it. But I'm pretty confident that I could find someone to teach me to ride a bike if I made an effort.

sarahel, Monday, 19 July 2010 19:38 (thirteen years ago) link

though he is friends with the friend of mine that I told could videotape me learning to ride a bike for a music video for his band, because the image of a 35 year old woman repeatedly falling off a bicycle should be put to good aesthetic use.

sarahel, Monday, 19 July 2010 19:41 (thirteen years ago) link

hahaaa ok that is true

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Monday, 19 July 2010 19:50 (thirteen years ago) link

i also think i'm gonna try using my magic eraser mop to wash my walls

sarahel, Monday, 19 July 2010 19:51 (thirteen years ago) link

There are benefits to not knowing how to do some things! I don't think I have ever washed a wall in my life.

xp Yes, I have a friend who is usually that person and probably will continue to be that person but it would still be good for me to learn to feel comfortable going places alone and talking to new people.

peacocks, Monday, 19 July 2010 19:52 (thirteen years ago) link

is said friend male or female? Though that's more an issue of talking to new people for purposes of dating vs. just meeting people

sarahel, Monday, 19 July 2010 19:55 (thirteen years ago) link

i need to wash my walls too. and then paint them!
(i explained the magic eraser to my newish guy friend on sat night and he was amazed and a little freaked out by its magical powers. this was in the context of him having just moved into a place and it needing further cleaning. i wasn't just randomly talking about household cleaning products.)

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Monday, 19 July 2010 19:58 (thirteen years ago) link

male

peacocks, Monday, 19 July 2010 19:58 (thirteen years ago) link

xp

peacocks, Monday, 19 July 2010 19:59 (thirteen years ago) link

I like it when people are amazed and freaked out by products I mention such as the diva cup, the feeldoe or the pee style

peacocks, Monday, 19 July 2010 19:59 (thirteen years ago) link

i was reading this book a while ago about how people are affected by their physical environments, and there was a part about messiness and clutter and an anecdote about how when rats are depressed they fail to keep their nests tidy, and my immediate goal is to have my apartment not look like it's inhabited by a mentally ill rodent.

sarahel, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:01 (thirteen years ago) link

^^ should be rodents, plural, my ex-bf was equally responsible for the state of the apartment - so that's over a decade's worth of depressed rat's nest to tidy

sarahel, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:02 (thirteen years ago) link

haha i did not know about the latter 2. i love diva cup though!

the girl with the butt tattoo (harbl), Monday, 19 July 2010 20:04 (thirteen years ago) link

i generally avoid hygiene products i can't get at a 24 hour store - just based on my known habits

sarahel, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:05 (thirteen years ago) link

My nest gets filthier the gloomier I am and when my nest is filthy I get gloomy.

peacocks, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:05 (thirteen years ago) link

my nest is extra filthy right now because it's too hot to clean

the girl with the butt tattoo (harbl), Monday, 19 July 2010 20:06 (thirteen years ago) link

well you can have the diva cup forever because it is made of silicone.

peacocks, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:06 (thirteen years ago) link

i got new curtains and felt a lot better

i like cleaning when it's hot - because if i'm going to be sweaty and gross, i might as well be doing something productive to somewhat distract myself from the sweaty and grossness.

sarahel, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:07 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah i don't know why it tells you you should only keep it for 10 years. maybe it will spontaneously combust in your vag. i think i've had it for 5 now, though. xpost

the girl with the butt tattoo (harbl), Monday, 19 July 2010 20:08 (thirteen years ago) link

I need new curtains, and I need to put up the ones I already have that are still in a box from moving 3 months ago.

peacocks, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:09 (thirteen years ago) link

the diva cup just makes me want to put a microphone in it and record myself singing arias

sarahel, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:09 (thirteen years ago) link

LOL @ things spontaneously combusting in my vag.

xpost

peacocks, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:10 (thirteen years ago) link

love the diva cup, but I had to Google the feeldoe and P. style. I can imagine this being difficult to explain. (The diva cup too–people think it's so gross, when actually it's the best thing ever during my period)

XP I've had my diva cup for seven years. No spontaneous combustion yet.

JuliaA, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:11 (thirteen years ago) link

spontaneous combustion is no joke, yo!

sarahel, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:11 (thirteen years ago) link

the feeldoe is one of those things I may never get to use and probably don't want to be in a circumstance where I would use it but I kind of really want to try it. y'know? But I mean, who knows where I'll be and who I'll be with in weeks/months/years!

peacocks, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:12 (thirteen years ago) link

the animated deer wagging its tail is making me LOL

sarahel, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:15 (thirteen years ago) link

I don't know what the other two things are and I'm not googling them from work, but I can vouch for my Keeper, it's got to be 14 years and counting!

the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Monday, 19 July 2010 20:15 (thirteen years ago) link

the feeldoe is a sex toy

sarahel, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:16 (thirteen years ago) link

the pee style is a little flume that lets you pee while standing up. apparently in the full monty there are girls who can do this just by pushing their vag area's forward? I never saw the movie.

peacocks, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:18 (thirteen years ago) link

there's an apostrophe in that that's confusing me

sarahel, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:18 (thirteen years ago) link

diva cup rules (i recently replaced my rubber Keeper with it! i feel like i've gone from 90s nu-hippy to 2000s modern eco-gal. lol advertising.)

feeldoe! i had no idea! wows

my immediate goal is to have my apartment not look like it's inhabited by a mentally ill rodent.
hahaha ohman. for a while there in winter when i was feeling down, i thought my place was crazy messy, but this is all relative, b/c i also visited other people's houses and the messyness was rat-style crazy to me. winter here is ridic! that said, i am watering a friend's plants while she's away for a week and her place is, er, chaotic. i really want to clean and tidy, but...

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Monday, 19 July 2010 20:19 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah, sorry... um their areas?

peacocks, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:19 (thirteen years ago) link

vag's areas?

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Monday, 19 July 2010 20:19 (thirteen years ago) link

i've been watching too much X-Files...

Varg's areas

sarahel, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:20 (thirteen years ago) link

vag area x

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Monday, 19 July 2010 20:21 (thirteen years ago) link

vag area 51!!!!

sigh - David Duchovny - had been totally ignorant of teh cuetness

sarahel, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:21 (thirteen years ago) link

Hips/pubic area...thing. I've seen the movie, and they do appear to be peeing standing up perfectly well. Remember they're aiming into a trough on the floor, though, not anything higher than that. I've certainly been in some bathrooms in my life where I'd have peed in the sink if I could, but at that angle/height it's completely impossible.

the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Monday, 19 July 2010 20:22 (thirteen years ago) link

Laurel - are we gonna get on the topic of foot flushing?

sarahel, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:22 (thirteen years ago) link

Pretty sure every woman can do that but the aim isn't necessarily that great.

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Monday, 19 July 2010 20:24 (thirteen years ago) link

ENBB otm

sarahel, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:24 (thirteen years ago) link

Sarahel you know that I had a whole freaking thread on foot flushing, right?

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Monday, 19 July 2010 20:24 (thirteen years ago) link

yes!!! I hadn't even heard of foot flushing until that thread - then I asked a bunch of friends about it, and it turned out that my bf (now ex-bf) was an occasional foot flusher, and I had no clue! Like, we'd been together over a decade and it was like he had a secret life that was suddenly exposed to me.

sarahel, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:26 (thirteen years ago) link

ha!

I wish I could use a keeper but it's not recommended for use with an IUD. I know there are women with IUDs who have used them but I really really don't like the idea of risking it and ripping out my own.

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Monday, 19 July 2010 20:28 (thirteen years ago) link

it was kinda like in "The History of Violence" when Viggo's wife finds out about his former life -- I think we did joke about whether he was turned on by cheerleader uniforms after that, and he said no.

sarahel, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:28 (thirteen years ago) link

I only flush with my foot in public restrooms that aren't work.

peacocks, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:29 (thirteen years ago) link

xp. god I hated that movie

peacocks, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:30 (thirteen years ago) link

why did you hate it?

sarahel, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:31 (thirteen years ago) link

I liked that movie a lot.

Yeah see I didn't really that flushing toilets with their feet was something that anyone did ever until two of my old co-workers mentioned it and acted like I was insane for not knowing about it.

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Monday, 19 July 2010 20:31 (thirteen years ago) link

half the people I surveyed (i think it was only about 14 people actually) were foot flushers.

sarahel, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:32 (thirteen years ago) link

more male than female foot flushers - which could be because men's toilets tend to be grosser?

sarahel, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:33 (thirteen years ago) link

I have also been known to open parking garage stairwell doors with my foot.

xp I hated History of Violence because it was just not enjoyable for me at all. I am really sensitive to domestic violence and rape and it just was one horrible bloody nightmare after another. The only scenes I can picture right now are at the beginning where they murder that family in the drug store and then the scene where he angrily rapes his wife on the stairs and it seems like she starts liking it? While crying?? It wasn't bad enough for me to walk out of the theater but I remember being incredibly put off by the whole thing from start to finish. I have liked bloody and violent movies in the past, too- although maybe now I wouldn't? I think I am becoming increasingly more sensitive to this kind of thing as I get older. I can't watch any of those law and order shows.

peacocks, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:39 (thirteen years ago) link

I <3 the Diva Cup. I will investigate the feeldoe when I am not at work.

I have a lady friend who can pee standing up by manipulating her vulva. She was telling us all about it one night when we were out drinking and I decided to try it in the bathroom of the bar, but thank goodness, was overcome with a wave of good judgment. She recommended that I start practicing in the shower.

I am a foot flusher. I am also a borderline clean freak.

We're in the process of moving right now (the movers come on Friday) and my orderly, clean world is upside down and I am a leeeeeetle stressed about it.

Ugh, Peacocks, I haven't seen History of Violence either but that is pretty much why I have not particularly wanted to. I think my husband saw it and confirmed my suspicions that it was Not For Me.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Monday, 19 July 2010 20:41 (thirteen years ago) link

VULVA! Manipulating the vulva. Yes I will have to practice in the shower, too.

peacocks, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:42 (thirteen years ago) link

xp I thought it was literally about THE history of violence, maybe a documentary? It was kind of a date too I think.

peacocks, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:43 (thirteen years ago) link

OK I may have to watch that again because I don't recall that scene on the stairs as being a rape scene. In fact, I remember it being pretty hot. :/

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Monday, 19 July 2010 20:44 (thirteen years ago) link

That sounds like a horrible date movie, unless I happened to be on a date with someone who was very turned on by hearing my feminist discourse on depictions of violence against women in popular entertainment.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Monday, 19 July 2010 20:44 (thirteen years ago) link

my immediate goal is to have my apartment not look like it's inhabited by a mentally ill rodent

haaaa, I fear this shd be mine too, definitely familiar with the self-loathing feedback loop of putting off cleaning

thank you for all your bike tips! the way the local bikes and buses compete for a shared bike/bus lane is kind of terrifying to me so I don't think I'd even consider it if I couldn't think of a way to get 80% of the way between work and home without going on the road - but this route is a dirt path and unlit during early winter evenings, so maybe also not a good plan, but hey

can't find any council bike training, but I did find a local cycle co-op which claims to offer cheap training and cheap bikes (though it doesn't specify the prices, so, uh)

atoms breaking heart (a passing spacecadet), Monday, 19 July 2010 20:46 (thirteen years ago) link

p-style is great for stand-up peeing in portapotties at jobsites/outdoor festivals. I can imagine skirt-wearing, but not trouser-wearing, standup peeing.

spacecadet, check to see if any of the local bike shops do rentals!

Jaq, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:48 (thirteen years ago) link

Just added History of Violence to my netflix because I wanted to watch it again anyway. Just found this quote from an interview in the Montreal mirror with the actress involved which seems to coincide with the way I remember that scene:

I pity the reporter who interviewed Maria Bello shortly before me. The misguided feminist apparently referred to the animalistic stairwell sex in A History of Violence as a “semi-rape” scene. Big mistake.

“I was so angry,” says Bello, the star of David Cronenberg’s most Hollywood effort to date. “I mean it’s unforgivable. If you look at the scene, we were fighting and fighting and then he starts pulling away ’cause he feels bad. So then I pull him to me because I want to fuck this person I’ve never met before, and I feel a desire and loss of control that I’ve never felt before. It’s a huge turning point for my character. So for someone to even allude to that as rape is just stupidity.”

It’s especially frustrating for Bello because of the efforts made with co-star Viggo Mortensen before shooting the scene to ensure that the choreography couldn’t be misconstrued.

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Monday, 19 July 2010 20:52 (thirteen years ago) link

Not trying to start any big discussion on that movie btw (sure there is probably a thread for it anyway) just thought that quote was interesting.

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Monday, 19 July 2010 20:53 (thirteen years ago) link

ENBB: clearing shit up.

kate78, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:53 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah, i didn't read it as rape at all - i also thought it was pretty hot.

sarahel, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:54 (thirteen years ago) link

lol. I can totally see how someone would be disturbed by that scene. Sex + violence is a combination that will always be disturbing at least on some level. Like everything it's open to interpretation and will effect everyone differently. I just thought it was interesting to see what Maria Bello had to say about it.

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Monday, 19 July 2010 20:56 (thirteen years ago) link

the lol there x-post to Kate btw

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Monday, 19 July 2010 20:57 (thirteen years ago) link

that sex scene just didn't strike me as particularly violent ... like it seemed very much an emotional tension leading to sexual release kinda thing.

sarahel, Monday, 19 July 2010 20:58 (thirteen years ago) link

Apparently a lot of ppl thought that was a semi-rape scene and in retrospect I can see where that stems from. I just find it really interesting that the same scene can cause such different reactions in ppl. You know?

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Monday, 19 July 2010 20:58 (thirteen years ago) link

It's been too long for me to remember real details but I think that's sort of what I thought too well other than "damn, that's some hot stair fucking".

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Monday, 19 July 2010 20:59 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah - it makes me wonder what their sexual histories are like - not saying that the rape/semi-rape reading is "wrong"

Me & the ex-bf would watch Cronenberg movies in the way that other couples watch porn as a "marital aid" - sorry if that's TMI.

sarahel, Monday, 19 July 2010 21:00 (thirteen years ago) link

. . .

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Monday, 19 July 2010 21:04 (thirteen years ago) link

;)

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Monday, 19 July 2010 21:04 (thirteen years ago) link

Not to be all womyn's issues message board on anyone, but I'm uncomfortable with questioning anyone's sexual history because they read a sex scene differently. If you allowed that, you could also say that anyone who works in rape crisis or counseling or agitates for greater awareness/protection must have been raped because they have particular empathy for the victims, or something equally illogical. It just doesn't follow and I don't like the direction of "She's more (read 'overly') sensitive because she's a victim/survivor/whatever."

the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Monday, 19 July 2010 21:14 (thirteen years ago) link

oh, no, I wasn't even thinking of sexual histories in terms of experience/work with domestic violence at all! I was thinking primarily in terms of practices (like someone that is into bdsm might read it differently than someone who hasn't done that), or duration of relationships, or ways of relating with their partners - like, have they had the experience of getting in an argument or dealing with a traumatic event and then having sex.

sarahel, Monday, 19 July 2010 21:17 (thirteen years ago) link

Okay, fine! Just me being over-sensitive, then. Nothing to see here.

the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Monday, 19 July 2010 21:18 (thirteen years ago) link

No, you're not being over-sensitive at all - I realize that what I initially said was ambiguous.

sarahel, Monday, 19 July 2010 21:19 (thirteen years ago) link

I thought she meant the sexual histories of the characters. Whoops. Yes Laurel, I agree with you 100%.

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Monday, 19 July 2010 21:19 (thirteen years ago) link

Consent is instrumental to BDSM, though.

My perspective was that I was very uncomfortable with that scene. It was ambiguous enough with regards to consent that it seemed like it could be rape. But I don't remember the context well enough to be able to consider it beyond my memory of my reaction to that scene.

JuliaA, Monday, 19 July 2010 22:24 (thirteen years ago) link

spacecadet, aren't you in oxford? </.xls> i'm moving there sept/oct -- seriously, if you haven't learnt by then i'll set you loose on my bike (i am q short, the saddle can be raised if necessary).

oligopoly golightly (c sharp major), Monday, 19 July 2010 23:18 (thirteen years ago) link

http://chicago.craigslist.org/wcl/fuo/1849586554.html

Let's talk about whether these end tables are awesome enough to warrant a trip out to the 'burbs. I vote yes. Jeff is skeptical, but I think if we put the coffee table... somewhere else the end tables won't be too ridiculously overwhelming.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Monday, 19 July 2010 23:35 (thirteen years ago) link

omg yes i want those

the girl with the butt tattoo (harbl), Monday, 19 July 2010 23:38 (thirteen years ago) link

they're amazing! i can see how it might be hard to resist the impulse to redesign the room to match them, though.

oligopoly golightly (c sharp major), Monday, 19 July 2010 23:39 (thirteen years ago) link

They're great!

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Monday, 19 July 2010 23:45 (thirteen years ago) link

those are great, Jenny!

GIS has opened my eyes to the prospect of leopard print office chairs!

sarahel, Monday, 19 July 2010 23:45 (thirteen years ago) link

Our living room furniture would all more or less coordinate, color-wise, although it would end up being a serious RIOT of random prints. We've been meaning to get a new rug for like, seven years (I love our rug (here - http://farm1.static.flickr.com/7/11135542_404d9d0697.jpg - it's hard to tell but the main color is navy blue), and I've had it forever but it's getting pretty beat to shit and is probably not worth the expense of having repaired, so maybe these crazy ass tables would be the catalyst we've been waiting for.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Monday, 19 July 2010 23:47 (thirteen years ago) link

That particular sex scene in History of Violence – Cronenberg brought his wife on set, so they could act out for Mortenson & Bello how to do it on screen. Which made me lol at this sentence: "It’s especially frustrating for Bello because of the efforts made with co-star Viggo Mortensen before shooting the scene to ensure that the choreography couldn’t be misconstrued." Is this the "choreography" they were referring to?

I could defs see AHOV making people uncomfortable, esp. sensitive people. OTOH after someone did something really abuse-y to me, this was the first movie I wanted to see. I think I watched History of Violence four times that week. Then I made some friends come over & watch it with me a fifth time. I think I just wanted to see a movie I liked that featured bad guys getting their asses kicked.

could be a bad day for (Abbott), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 00:00 (thirteen years ago) link

btw by "act out how to do it on screen" I mean Cronenberg fucked his wife on set, right in front of them.

could be a bad day for (Abbott), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 00:01 (thirteen years ago) link

Whoa!!!

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 00:02 (thirteen years ago) link

Oh shit that's right! I'd heard that before but totally forgotten about it.

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 00:06 (thirteen years ago) link

wow.

also, jenny, BUY THAT. k votes for you to buy it too.

JuliaA, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 01:16 (thirteen years ago) link

Jeff firmly vetoed. Curse his sleek, clean, modern sensibilities. Or my chaotic, borderline tacky, Hollywood Regency/Art Noveau/Rococo, Victorian clown barf design preferences, either one.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 01:37 (thirteen years ago) link

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_HV7mKwSRGNU/Rw4VQRZgCGI/AAAAAAAAATQ/hzo-gVZoCps/s320/grimaldi+scary+clown.jpg

Representative GIS search for "Victorian clown barf."

PS David Cronenberg is a weirdo.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 01:41 (thirteen years ago) link

That clown looks like Londo from Babylon 5 /nerdface

Gumbercules (Trayce), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 01:44 (thirteen years ago) link

sleek, clean, modern has nothin on those tables, nothin!

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 02:20 (thirteen years ago) link

i liked history of violence. i also like d cronenberg - when i heard abt the sex on set thing, i was like, yep. i only wish to one day be that free and crazy with my freak flag (in my own way, not his way, i mean, i'm not going to make a movie like Dead Ringers either, so..)

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 02:24 (thirteen years ago) link

Jenny those end tables are beautiful!

The only Cronenberg movie I have seen other than AHOV is Spider. I remember liking that one, I got sucked into it. I can also understand how that sex scene could be a turning point for the wife's character but I remember it moving so seamlessly from me being freaked out about him getting rough with her to them f-ing. I don't think I've ever had angry sex or had sex after a fight like that, so maybe I just can't relate. The main thing is there was so much more in the movie that I didn't care for.

peacocks, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 13:38 (thirteen years ago) link

I rly like those tables too, although they're quite busy! Tell Jeff you can put some white cloth napkins on them as drip-catchers that will calm the pattern down. I bought retro-printed yellow cloth table napkins at Target and use them to protect the top of my teak coffee table. Spread them flat, iron flatter if you're feeling OCD.

Or go to second-hand stores and buy old embroidered handkerchiefs or linens for same thing. Very handy.

the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 13:44 (thirteen years ago) link

crush i tried to stop having on someone i thought was kinda just too flakey has returned! with heart-stopping vengence...
dammit. i mean, hm. i mean, ow.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 17:50 (thirteen years ago) link

Aww. Do you still think he's too flaky?

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 17:53 (thirteen years ago) link

ooh i hate that. i had that experience semi-recently - return of crush - it went away a lot faster this time than the first time. the feeling, not the person.

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 17:54 (thirteen years ago) link

i think that b/c the crush waned, i was able to see him more clearly as a person, which was good, but also i didn't see him that often in general - partly b/c i never chase people and make all these assumptions abt others' 'busy lives' and how i don't have a place in them (am working on changing that ridic pattern...) - and now i just spent well over an hour w him and am just like omg kindred spirit.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 18:06 (thirteen years ago) link

totally done w/chasing people

it's good when you can see crushes more clearly as people, though sometimes crushes become crushes because the person in question sorta obfuscates their identity and is aloof

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 18:11 (thirteen years ago) link

I know some girls who get guys to fall for him by remaining aloof for as long as possible. I can never do that, I'm so transparent.

peacocks, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 18:35 (thirteen years ago) link

for them* ugh.

peacocks, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 18:35 (thirteen years ago) link

http://www.tallkiss.com/

peacocks, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 18:36 (thirteen years ago) link

oh internet

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 18:46 (thirteen years ago) link

but yeah, there's aloof and knowing that you're going to be chased, and then there's aloof and feeling like they might or might not chase you, pretending you don't care, but actually caring, etc.

the same person i've been plant-watering for (and using washer & dryer of - ALL my laundry is done! unprecidented) has a lot of self-empowerment books, not crappy ones, but fairly intellectual ones tbh, and i've been browsing through them. it's been interesting. so i'm rethinking what 'chasing' means, and while i wldn't chase in many forms, i need to at least put effort/energy in and see myself as chase-able - i mean, i have all kinds of evidence of that having actually and in fact happened throughout my adult life and yet i discount it these days. being 30-something is so weird. better than 20-something, but weirder.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 18:54 (thirteen years ago) link

i don't care anymore

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 18:56 (thirteen years ago) link

i dunno -- i think chasing makes sense if you genuinely like the person. otherwise you just sit there pretending to not care and that doesn't work when both people do it, now does it

chasing worked for me, though i didn't do it with the embarrassing fervor i had done it in the past

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 18:58 (thirteen years ago) link

also this is like 150,000 xposts, but riding to and from social events is pretty much the reason that i can get myself to go to social events like 90% of the time

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 18:58 (thirteen years ago) link

i'm seriously thinking abt winterizing my mountain bike this year! at least for neighbourhood jaunts (my road bike is too much summer fun, don't want to wreck it)

i think my new answer is to just let my true loving self shine through any silly anxieties these days tbh. getting over caring abt what people think as long as i'm not hurting anyone, right? embrace the weirdness

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:08 (thirteen years ago) link

that's my motto
it's part of the true unfettered glory of one's 30s imo

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:11 (thirteen years ago) link

the only time i have to rein it in a little is at work, but students aren't allowed to see full on 100% me anyway. too vulnerable!

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:12 (thirteen years ago) link

OTM

I didn't even realize how liberating this actually was until Jeff and I were at this free outdoor concert that was well attended by many cool kids and I started to get anxious about whether I was reading as appropriate hip for my surroundings and it hit me: I'm a 37-year-old fat lady here straight from my business casual lawyer job and of COURSE I don't fit in, but I'm really happy to be sitting outside and watching this band I really like and *mental bird-flipping to all concern attendees*.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:15 (thirteen years ago) link

Let's address some typos, shall we? "Appropriate" should be "appropriately" and "concern" should be "concert."

Sheesh.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:15 (thirteen years ago) link

if you're over 30 and you're still making yourself sick about what other people think, yr doin it rong

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:18 (thirteen years ago) link

i didn't go to pfork at all, but that's because i forgot when it was and i was on vacation

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:19 (thirteen years ago) link

heh, i read it as "concerned attendees" and that made sense too!

i'm totally unconcerned about being too weird or uncool because i'm "old" - i was at a friend's house about a month ago, and looking at his hipster roommate's tape collection, which is in the kitchen, and commented that it really resembled my tape collection circa 1987, and hipster roommate got a bit defensive, and we got into an argument about what was the best New Order album - he disputed my assertion that it was Power Corruption & Lies, but it turned out he really likes to argue, so I think I actually rose in his estimation.

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:21 (thirteen years ago) link

Oh, the concert in question was the Caribou show in Millennium Park. I didn't go to Pitchfork either b/c it's hot outside and we're moving plus fuck portapotties. Another thing I get to not care about now that I'm over 30: prioritizing sanitation and personal comfort over wanting everybody to think I'm the kind of person who doesn't care about portapotties or filthy dive bar bathrooms. It turns out I do care. I fucking care a lot.

xp Of course it's Power Corruption & Lies (although I am very fond of Brotherhood in a totally uncool way).

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:24 (thirteen years ago) link

"Age of Consent" has an eerie habit of coming up on shuffle on my ipod when i'm leaving a show or party having had bad guy chasing experiences

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:25 (thirteen years ago) link

I am listening to that right now. Which is actually not that odd since I put on PC&L because you just mentioned it.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:27 (thirteen years ago) link

hahaha re: prioritizing sanitation - like how at age 28 i was travelling and suddenly was just like fuck this hostel shit we're staying in a hotel. never go back.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:27 (thirteen years ago) link

lol - roxy is on tour and can't contribute to this thread right now

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:28 (thirteen years ago) link

YES. The days of using a bag of my own dirty clothes as a pillow are OVER, motherfuckers.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:28 (thirteen years ago) link

Well, Roxy is a rock star so that's different.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:28 (thirteen years ago) link

also - sleeping on mattresses on the floor - i don't care if i lost punk or boho cred or whatever, i really like sleeping on an actual bed

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:30 (thirteen years ago) link

as long as it's a mattress and not a futon, i'm okay with it being on the floor.

kate78, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:32 (thirteen years ago) link

We just bought a real bed w/ headboard (the first I have owned since I went to college and my parents cleared out my teenage bedroom!), but the delivery date is after we move and I'm loathe to move anything unnecessarily so we're leaving the metal bed-frame thinger behind and going back to mattress-on-the-floor for however long it takes them to deliver the bed.

I've been reading a lot of home decorating blogs in an attempt to not suck at decorating my home and I have noticed that putting the mattress right on the floor is kind of trendy again.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:34 (thirteen years ago) link

i don't care about trendy, i'm in my mid-30s. i like the elevation that a bed provides, it's a kinda regal feeling

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:36 (thirteen years ago) link

another advantage: cats won't be able to hide underneath for sneakattack.

kate78, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:37 (thirteen years ago) link

my parents have had the same crummy mattress on the floor for my entire life (my first bed was a mattress on the floor too)
not surprisingly, this has made me long for a really tall cushiony bed
mattress on the floor with no box spring reminds me of the sad scene of duckie's bedroom

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:40 (thirteen years ago) link

haha totally. duckie listening to the smiths, tossing cards into a hat.

horseshoe, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:41 (thirteen years ago) link

please please please let me get what i want

kate78, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:41 (thirteen years ago) link

mattress on the floor with no box spring reminds me of the sad scene of duckie's bedroom

i thought that was the coolest thing when i was a teenager, though!

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:42 (thirteen years ago) link

lol - Jenny - I was thinking the New Order "Age of Consent" topic - not the mattresses/hostel topic

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:44 (thirteen years ago) link

Me, toooooooooooo I tossed so many cards into hats. It's funny. I was supposed to identify with Andy, but she was so defined by the dudes around her, that instead I just desperately wanted to be Ducky.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:45 (thirteen years ago) link

HA, sarahel, okay! Haha.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:46 (thirteen years ago) link

i tried for years to find a Ducky-like jacket! That was my vintage store holy grail for a while.

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:46 (thirteen years ago) link

i never tossed a single card into a hat in my life
that scene made me think that duckie might be homeless/a squatter/orphaned, but as a kid i always thought that when one character never had on-screen parents and the other one did (see also: some kind of wonderful)

i mean, i didn't REALLY think he was a street waif (he did go to school and try to do his homework), but the thought crossed my mind

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:49 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah i was mildly curious as to duckie's home life situation. i didn't think he was a squatter but i did think maybe his parents weren't in the picture and he was renting a room somewhere.

horseshoe, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:50 (thirteen years ago) link

but if he was renting a room he probably would have to quit high school and get a job so no.

horseshoe, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:51 (thirteen years ago) link

but almost all of those 80s teen movies had minimal parental presence! My mom referred to the characters in those movies as "pod children" because they never seemed to have any parents, as if they were generated from pods like in Invasion of the Body Snatchers

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:52 (thirteen years ago) link

but john hughes was invested in at least getting a representative moment of parents being awful onscreen. and harry dean stanton is fairly prominent in pretty in pink. kids bitch about their parents in john hughes movies at least. with duckie, it was like his entire life involved trailing andie around.

horseshoe, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:54 (thirteen years ago) link

Pretty in Pink means a lot to me, guys.

horseshoe, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:54 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah, i just remember the distinction between the ones who did and the ones who didn't more than the overall absence of parents

watts - no visible parents, has no one to eat with
keith - dad is obsessed with his future, eats dinner with his family every night

duckie - throws cards angrily into a hat in his sad graffiti room
sam - unemployed pop cares enough to buy her a dress (albeit an ugly one)

lloyd - has a sister, but don't remember any parents (were they dead?)
diane - affectionate overzealous dad

surely there are more, but those are the ones that i remember most clearly. it didn't help that in english class we were always reading about little picaresque street urchins.

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:57 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah, but you only get a moment, then the parents conveniently disappear in order to further the plot. this bred years of resentment of my parents who were around a lot (like they never went on vacation, and my dad was a school teacher so he was home all day during the summer) and neither cool or awful.

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:57 (thirteen years ago) link

xp - i liked some kind of wonderful more than pretty in pink because keith's parents seemed more like my parents in terms of their regular presence in his life, plus Watts had a cool car and played drums - and of course, there was Duncan

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:59 (thirteen years ago) link

shit, english AND spanish class
i was under the impression that the world is very full of industrious orphaned waifs on a journey

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 19:59 (thirteen years ago) link

I always assumed that Duckie had parents but they were of the sort who did not care if their son spray painted his walls or slept on a mattress on the floor. So either super permissive hippies/artists or drunks. Or both. The Glass Castle by Duckie Dale.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:00 (thirteen years ago) link

oh yeah - lots of orphaned waifs in english class!

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:00 (thirteen years ago) link

that seems plausible

xp

horseshoe, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:00 (thirteen years ago) link

There were parents all over the place in Sixteen Candles and Weird Science.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:01 (thirteen years ago) link

those parents went on vacation!!!!

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:01 (thirteen years ago) link

god i LOVE weird science

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:04 (thirteen years ago) link

i totally had a Watts moment in my early 20s - where i dressed up in pseudo-chauffeur garb to pick up my best friend (who I had a huge crush on) and his gf at the airport.

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:05 (thirteen years ago) link

that's crazy sarahel!

horseshoe, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:08 (thirteen years ago) link

he was also a painter, he later became my bf

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:08 (thirteen years ago) link

Did you play drums? Where were your parents during this time?

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:10 (thirteen years ago) link

haha

horseshoe, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:10 (thirteen years ago) link

i didn't start playing drums until i was 31! my parents lived 70 miles away.

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:11 (thirteen years ago) link

i did sleep on a mattress on the floor though!

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:12 (thirteen years ago) link

did you offer to help him practice kissing while he was at work?

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:12 (thirteen years ago) link

i fantasized about it. the relationship was more complicated than that though ...

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:12 (thirteen years ago) link

i didn't start playing drums until i was 31!

i'm a touch older than that (34) but you just gave me some much needed HOPE

!!

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:13 (thirteen years ago) link

i totally sublimated a crush on a guy by having him give me drum lessons

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:13 (thirteen years ago) link

AMANDA. Take drum lessons. I will take piano lessons at a certain community college where I get half-price classes. We'll have a band.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:16 (thirteen years ago) link

i'm super excited because i actually have room in my apartment for a piano now

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:16 (thirteen years ago) link

i want to, but i don't know if i want to pay for them! our band will be hilarious. i should warn you that every time i have tried to write a song it sounds like a weird al song.

maybe we will write weird al style songs.

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:18 (thirteen years ago) link

you could probably get some under-employed musician to teach you for like $20-25 a lesson

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:19 (thirteen years ago) link

I don't have a piano, but I have a nice full-sized keyboard that Amanda gave me! And since we're moving to a bigger place, I'll have a place to put it that is not under the bed. Rock!

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:20 (thirteen years ago) link

did you ever read that Sassy article about how to start your own band?

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:22 (thirteen years ago) link

I did get an offer from a friend who lives like 3 blocks away, but I was shy about pursuing it. I guess I sort of need to be taught some basics -- I don't want to just like flail around like a toddler. I need a little structure. He offered me use of his drum set, but didn't seem to want to take the time to teach a grown ass woman how to do really basic shit.

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:22 (thirteen years ago) link

just like everything else, there are tutorials on the internet. but having someone actually teach me really helped. Take him up on it!

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:24 (thirteen years ago) link

i realize my reticence to pursue this goes against my advice above, but it also involves spending time in some dude's apartment which is kinda weird

i will do this someday, i swear it

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:24 (thirteen years ago) link

it's kinda awkward and weird when you start playing as it is - you'll feel totally goofy (at least i did), so if the dude feels weird about having some chick in his apartment you'll be somewhat even

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:26 (thirteen years ago) link

I had some kind of "Learn to Play Rock Drums the Easy Way" dealie when I was a kid. It came with tapes and I had a little drum pad, and drum sticks. I would sit at our kitchen counter and use the washer (it was one of those portable ones that you could hook up to the faucet) as a bass drum and an empty bottle as a cymbal.

Unfair world alert: when we got to pick our band instruments in fourth grade, I tried to pick drums, but the school had a rule that if you were a girl, you had to be in sixth grade before you could start to play drums.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:28 (thirteen years ago) link

ugh that sucks!

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:29 (thirteen years ago) link

It's okay. I played saxophone instead, and last time I tried (three or four years ago), I could still play the sax intro to Baker Street so I think it worked out okay.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:31 (thirteen years ago) link

Jenny! Amanda! Did you have screenings of Free to Be You And Me when you were in grade school?

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:31 (thirteen years ago) link

playing drums is so fun. i'm not great at it and in total admiration for anyone who does it well - so much body-brain coordination!

i just got a new jam space :D playing there for first time on friday. and oh i am gonna play loud and do some healthy yelling/singing. sweetness.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:34 (thirteen years ago) link

No! I didn't even know what that was until I went to college and heard somebody sing it.

xp yay Robyn! Jam space is awesome!

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:34 (thirteen years ago) link

robyn - shared practice spaces are rife with cute guys

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:35 (thirteen years ago) link

i had my own space that was just mine because i was kinda self-conscious about playing/rocking out, until i became single & started living alone and couldn't afford it. hearing the people in the other rooms, and basically being equal to the other dudes in my space (because they're all dudes, except for the bass player in one band) - really made me just say fuck it, i'm a musician too.

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:37 (thirteen years ago) link

also lol - said sole other female occupant of practice space used to post on ilx

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:38 (thirteen years ago) link

Jenny! Amanda! Did you have screenings of Free to Be You And Me when you were in grade school?
Like Jenny, I never heard of it until someone mentioned it in college. Honestly, I still don't really know what it was. Drums were not an option for anyone when I was in gradeschool (all girls school) so I played the clarinet. In high school everyone who played drums was a guy, and they were really good already, so I thought I had missed my window. Also I was very small.

When I was 19 I almost bought a drum kit during the summer between my first and second year of college, but my mom asked where I was going to put it and I was like uhhhhhhhh, so I didn't buy it.

REGRETS, I'VE HAD A FEW

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:43 (thirteen years ago) link

drums are great if you're small though! everything's totally modular.

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:44 (thirteen years ago) link

well, i was referring to the high school marching band drum corps -- some serious egos there iirc -- and they had to carry the drums and march around in 90+ degree heat and i just was not built for that, small or not.

if being small helps a person play indoors drums that one does not have to tote all over a football field, then sign me up.

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:46 (thirteen years ago) link

it doesn't hurt - because everything's adjustable. you might want to get smaller sticks if you have small hands.

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:48 (thirteen years ago) link

I can play concert snare and clarinet for the orchestral versions! When you're playing at the oscars or the VMAs!

peacocks, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:50 (thirteen years ago) link

oh jees you aren't even talking about starting a band anymore. I should go back to work.

peacocks, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:51 (thirteen years ago) link

what are your thoughts on Age of Consent, K?

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:51 (thirteen years ago) link

what's the difference between a concert snare and a regular snare? do you use trad grip with it or matched, or is that not an issue?

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:55 (thirteen years ago) link

i was never in school band - but there always seemed to be a difference between flute girls and clarinet girls.

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 20:57 (thirteen years ago) link

In my high school, clarinet girls were more likely to play field hockey and flute girls were more likely to be cheerleaders. Sax players were more likely to get shitfaced before halftime shows.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 21:06 (thirteen years ago) link

of my current friends, quite a few were clarinet girls, i don't think any were flute girls

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 21:08 (thirteen years ago) link

only the truly bold played trumpet, male or female
i always admired them

we had a female trombone player

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 21:14 (thirteen years ago) link

i just never understood why there were so many flute players. i also am not a fan of the flute as a musical instrument, in general.

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 21:16 (thirteen years ago) link

just today i enjoyed the flute interlude during "the court of the crimson king"
flute is ok but kinda wussy

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 21:21 (thirteen years ago) link

i do like that song - but i'd like that interlude more if played on bassoon or violin ... god flute is wussy!

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 21:23 (thirteen years ago) link

the toy piano (or whatever it is) interlude is the better of the two little quiet interludes
i like the flute organ when it's being used in early music-type arrangements, though

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 21:25 (thirteen years ago) link

Aw I always miss all the best bits while I'm asleep, you gals!

Gumbercules (Trayce), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 21:27 (thirteen years ago) link

you know you can revive any slept on topic, Trayce! <3

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 21:28 (thirteen years ago) link

clarinet players are the weirdos of the whole band, one of my band teachers once said. I agree with that having been one.

peacocks, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 21:33 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah, but there are almost as many clarinet players as flute players - how can they all be the "weirdos"?

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 21:35 (thirteen years ago) link

i was a clarinet player in grade school and definitely not field hockey type
but the only reason i played the clarinet is because i literally had no other choice. was at the end of the line.

know what i rather like? the recorder.

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 21:39 (thirteen years ago) link

i can play "fire leap" from wicker man on my recorder
it's one of my many self-taught skills

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 21:39 (thirteen years ago) link

(that song is only like 6 notes long but it is a victory nevertheless)

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 21:40 (thirteen years ago) link

have you ever considered playing bagpipes?

sarahel, Tuesday, 20 July 2010 21:44 (thirteen years ago) link

!!! That's a pretty good idea, Amanda.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 21:48 (thirteen years ago) link

yes, but they are very expensive
i always wanted to pursue drumming because it's like seated dancing that makes awesome noises

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 21:49 (thirteen years ago) link

Take the flame inside you!

could be a bad day for (Abbott), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 22:12 (thirteen years ago) link

i knew you would know!
make the baby groooooooooooooooooooow

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 22:24 (thirteen years ago) link

I wanted to say "take the drums inside you" but that kind of sounds like drums are making you pregnant, which isn't very encouraging.

could be a bad day for (Abbott), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 22:40 (thirteen years ago) link

i don't want anything to make me pregnant but that would have been funny nevertheless

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 July 2010 22:44 (thirteen years ago) link

I wrote a big rambly post on my blog about being angry all the time, this morning (and how I hate it when men IGNORE YOU when you just want someone to listen, but thats a whole nother thing). And I'm starting to think I need to redirect all my crank into some kind of energetic thing.

Not drums tho, haha. I'm way too uncoordinated :D Bashing away at a bass and hollering into a mic are fun though. Should do it more often. Fuck the neighs.

Gumbercules (Trayce), Wednesday, 21 July 2010 00:22 (thirteen years ago) link

seated dancing that makes awesome noises

I am really digging this phrase.

peacocks, Wednesday, 21 July 2010 14:02 (thirteen years ago) link

Pretty in Pink means a lot to me, guys.

― horseshoe, Tuesday, July 20, 2010 3:54 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

:D

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Wednesday, 21 July 2010 15:27 (thirteen years ago) link

must have posted about this on ilx before, maybe multiple times, but the summer i was 13 i watched Pretty in Pink every day. that's not hyperbole.

horseshoe, Wednesday, 21 July 2010 16:25 (thirteen years ago) link

awwwww. I don't even know how many times I must have seen it but damn HS, that's pretty impressive.

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Wednesday, 21 July 2010 16:29 (thirteen years ago) link

Pretty In Pink was always my least favorite of those movies. I went from age 13 and hating how mean she was to ducky and choosing that whine-y a-hole to age 25 and thinking ducky was kind of stalker-y and overly possessive and still hating the whine-y a hole. Also her dress at the end makes me want to puke. Ducky is really cute though.

peacocks, Wednesday, 21 July 2010 16:38 (thirteen years ago) link

i am the rare viewer of Pretty in Pink who did not have a problem with her not picking Duckie. figured hughes was committed to his across-the-tracks romance and also Duckie read as gay to me.

horseshoe, Wednesday, 21 July 2010 16:41 (thirteen years ago) link

When I was little I really loved (still do tbh) the OMD song that is played during the prom scene. I wanted it on tape so I held a tape recorder up to the TV when it was on once and taped the whole scene. I know the last 10 mins by heart because I listened to that recording so much.

"This is a very romantic moment and you're ruining it for me . . . "

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Wednesday, 21 July 2010 16:43 (thirteen years ago) link

i still listen to the pretty in pink soundtrack from time to time. whatever, y'all, it's good!

horseshoe, Wednesday, 21 July 2010 16:44 (thirteen years ago) link

It's excellent!!!

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Wednesday, 21 July 2010 16:45 (thirteen years ago) link

<3

horseshoe, Wednesday, 21 July 2010 16:45 (thirteen years ago) link

kristy swanson rules as girl who beckons duckie
that soundtrack was super awesome and i still have my cassette and play it occasionally

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Wednesday, 21 July 2010 16:46 (thirteen years ago) link

Smiths, New Order, OMD, Psych Furs - these are a few of my favorite things

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Wednesday, 21 July 2010 16:46 (thirteen years ago) link

I never said anything bad about the soundtrack!

peacocks, Wednesday, 21 July 2010 16:46 (thirteen years ago) link

oh i know i am just defensive about my embarrassing pretty in pink love

horseshoe, Wednesday, 21 July 2010 16:47 (thirteen years ago) link

also, guys, james spader as stef one of the top 5 villain performances of all time. so hot!

"i've been out with a lot of girls at this school. i don't see what makes you so different."

horseshoe, Wednesday, 21 July 2010 16:48 (thirteen years ago) link

So when L and I lived in England he tried for a while to find P in P for me on DVD but it hadn't been released in the UK. He finally found it and excitedly ordered it for me and had it delivered to his office as we did with all packages. The day it was delivered he was talking to a bunch of people while opening his mail and they all saw him take Pretty in Pink out of the envelope only it wasn't the P in P we're talking about here. It was a porn that he'd just opened in front of his manager.

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Wednesday, 21 July 2010 16:51 (thirteen years ago) link

!!!

horseshoe, Wednesday, 21 July 2010 16:52 (thirteen years ago) link

xp - i had a bf in college that looked like James Spader - he was an asshole

sarahel, Wednesday, 21 July 2010 16:53 (thirteen years ago) link

x-post lol yep! Thankfully his manager was an awesome guy but they all made fun of him as he tried to explain the mix up and it took a while for him to live it down.

Don't I know you from somewhere? Gym. Your name's Jim?

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Wednesday, 21 July 2010 16:53 (thirteen years ago) link

nice pearls, honey. this isn't a dinner party.

horseshoe, Wednesday, 21 July 2010 16:54 (thirteen years ago) link

ohhhhhhhh don't get me started it's all going to come out in a flood.

horseshoe, Wednesday, 21 July 2010 16:54 (thirteen years ago) link

I know, I know. Me too.

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Wednesday, 21 July 2010 16:54 (thirteen years ago) link

omg E. that is hilarious!

sarahel, Wednesday, 21 July 2010 16:55 (thirteen years ago) link

what about Iona!? She was the best thing in the movie! I will admit her speech alone is the reason I went to prom.

peacocks, Wednesday, 21 July 2010 16:59 (thirteen years ago) link

yes totes she is great.

horseshoe, Wednesday, 21 July 2010 17:00 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah Annie Potts was amazing.

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Wednesday, 21 July 2010 17:03 (thirteen years ago) link

the cherish scene has stayed with me

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Wednesday, 21 July 2010 17:03 (thirteen years ago) link

now i have cherish in my head + the image of annie potts's beehive in that scene.

horseshoe, Wednesday, 21 July 2010 17:06 (thirteen years ago) link

heh - i was just wondering - who played Molly Ringwald's awesome friend?

sarahel, Wednesday, 21 July 2010 17:11 (thirteen years ago) link

thought of this thread yesterday - a male friend referred to the pee style as the "ladyfunnel" - also, going back to something way way upthread, had conversation with another girl about pubescent memories of seeing David Bowie's junk in Labyrinth - this made quite an impression on her, again, I have no memory of this, I only remember the boots. I had such a wholesome upbringing.

sarahel, Monday, 26 July 2010 19:54 (thirteen years ago) link

oh! that reminds me of the name of the thing my mom bought me when i turned 16. i got my driver's license and she presented me with "le funnelle", a female urinary aid. "you know, just in case you really have to pee by the side of the road at some point. just keep them in your glove compartment. let's hope you never need them." she also forced me to tote around a reflective thermal blanket just in case i got into an accident in the winter.

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Monday, 26 July 2010 19:56 (thirteen years ago) link

it was a little box of paper funnels that you hold up to your crotch and pee into. they were disposable.
i tried one once inside (in a bathroom) to see if they worked, and they did. never had to use one on the road, though.

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Monday, 26 July 2010 19:58 (thirteen years ago) link

wow - your mom is even more pragmatic than mine! Mine would always tell me to make sure to wear clean underwear and would regularly buy me flashlights to keep in the car.

sarahel, Monday, 26 July 2010 19:59 (thirteen years ago) link

If you have to pee by the side of the road, why not just squat? Especially if you are 16 and have young knees.

I rewatched Labyrinth a couple of months ago and I was pleased at how well it held up and shocked (seriously) at David Bowie's wang in those pants.

http://www.cultureblues.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/labyrinth.jpg

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Monday, 26 July 2010 20:03 (thirteen years ago) link

she didn't want me to worry about getting pee on my clothes!

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Monday, 26 July 2010 20:03 (thirteen years ago) link

that was what this girl was saying (about Labyrinth holding up)

sarahel, Monday, 26 July 2010 20:04 (thirteen years ago) link

Also, every time I discuss this movie, I get the "You remind me of the babe What babe? The babe with the power!" song in my head. Also, have we already talked about the line "Smack that baby, make him pee"? Because what the hell. And, in conclusion:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2583/4188866214_104bb6b303.jpg

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Monday, 26 July 2010 20:04 (thirteen years ago) link

also squatting is undignified, but standing and peeing like a man with a proper paper funnel penis is ok

ghee hee hee (La Lechera), Monday, 26 July 2010 20:05 (thirteen years ago) link

I wish I could find this letter (one of very few) that my grandmother wrote to me when I lived in Colorado in which she describes having to stop and pee by the side of the rode while wearing an all purple outfit and accidentally falling over, but, being old, being unable to stop peeing, which in turn made her laugh, which made her pee harder, and it is one of the funniest things I have ever read in my life. My grandmother is also short and round, and she described herself as a "little grape" in her all purple outfit.

sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Monday, 26 July 2010 20:08 (thirteen years ago) link

haha i rewatched labyrinth several months ago b/c my bro txted me to say he was watching it on tv. i starting watching on komputor and txted back "i forgot that this was a movie about david bowie's package!!"

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Monday, 26 July 2010 20:10 (thirteen years ago) link

two weeks pass...

welcome back roxy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VcGJZpfl1c

sarahel, Monday, 9 August 2010 20:42 (thirteen years ago) link

four weeks pass...

wow yall. this was a lot to catch up on. i've been reading this thread and trying to get a foothold for like, 2 weeks now.

hahaha re: prioritizing sanitation - like how at age 28 i was travelling and suddenly was just like fuck this hostel shit we're staying in a hotel. never go back.

― obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, July 20, 2010 3:27 PM (1 month ago)

lol - roxy is on tour and can't contribute to this thread right now

― sarahel, Tuesday, July 20, 2010 3:28 PM (1 month ago)

Well, Roxy is a rock star so that's different.

― sinister chemical wisdom (Jenny), Tuesday, July 20, 2010 3:28 PM (1 month ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

  • y'all! y'all! y'all! y'all! y'all!
i have stayed in a hotel in band situations like 10 times out of probably 150 touring nights of my life. also, on this last tour, i slept in some of the grossest places i have ever slept in my life. this is NOT braggin' 2010, tho -- in my personal life, i adore hotels and sometimes go to the next town over (esp. a gateway town to the Smokies) and just rent a hotel for a couple nights and chill out with my BF and do homework. In a band, though...well, no 22-y/o metalhead can admit to being able to afford that.

  • loved Ducky
  • have never thrown cards into a hat

proprietor of gib (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 7 September 2010 22:02 (thirteen years ago) link

i have a mikita - it used to be my mom's so it's got sentimental value - but mikitas are kinda wussy compared to Dewalts

sarahel, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 08:53 (thirteen years ago) link

My mom recently got a small ryobi hand drill that I want. I have a junky old box of tools that I need to clean out and update. I like stuff like this:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b74/righteouskate/flora-tools-wrench.jpg

peacocks, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 14:48 (thirteen years ago) link

xp to roxy: The worst hotel I ever stayed at was in southwest Georgia. You could see the sky through a hole in the ceiling patched with rotting wooden boards and there was carpet. in the bathroom. the bathroom. It was squishy and moldy.

peacocks, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 14:51 (thirteen years ago) link

ryobi's are kinda crappy drills, tbh -

it's basically: dewalt >>>>>>> mikita >>>>>>>>> ryobi

sarahel, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 18:12 (thirteen years ago) link

Really? That ryobi is pretty sturdy.

peacocks, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 18:31 (thirteen years ago) link

depends on what you're using it for ... why am i being a power tool snob on ilx, that's totally retarded.

sarahel, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 18:33 (thirteen years ago) link

Every drill I've used besides the Ryobi has been a standard sized dewalt though and they are definitely good. But I don't have anything really to compare it to as the Ryobi my mom has is wee. I used the dewalt to put together a fan and to drill one of my book cases to the wall because it has a tendency to lean on carpet. The Ryobi I just used to put together a small cabinet and to fasten a shelf to a wall. Both performed well.

peacocks, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 18:36 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah i bought a dewalt for pp who had a little black and decker drill. the dewalt KILLS.

sunny successor, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 18:37 (thirteen years ago) link

oh and hi ladies

sunny successor, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 18:37 (thirteen years ago) link

black and decker sucks. hi.

peacocks, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 18:39 (thirteen years ago) link

I guess you're a dude.

peacocks, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 18:39 (thirteen years ago) link

so... welcome. would you like some bowie crotch?

peacocks, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 18:40 (thirteen years ago) link

i mean, they're all perfectly fine for basic household tasks -- it's when you get into drilling into brick or metal that you see the performance differences

sarahel, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 18:44 (thirteen years ago) link

I have my mom's old drill (think it may be an old Milwaukee?) and it's heavy and great, but I think it's still the less powerful of the cordless drills, and if I needed to, for instance, drill into brick walls (with the right bit of course) I'm not sure it could keep up.

xp yes!!

Q: What's small, clumsy, and slow? A: A toddler. (Laurel), Wednesday, 8 September 2010 18:47 (thirteen years ago) link

ohhh. haven't had to do much with brick or metal in my life yet. The outer walls in my old house were concrete, if that makes a difference.

peacocks, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 18:54 (thirteen years ago) link

i do not have stockholm syndrome about my ex-bf's drill!

sarahel, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 18:55 (thirteen years ago) link

okay maybe that totally convoluted post raises an actual topic of discussion:

items belonging to former bf's that you keep because their function outweighs any bad associations

sarahel, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 18:58 (thirteen years ago) link

Nada.

Q: What's small, clumsy, and slow? A: A toddler. (Laurel), Wednesday, 8 September 2010 19:21 (thirteen years ago) link

For many years I held on to a number of CDs and records belonging to the Worst Ex in the World because he had good taste in music. Also he owed me money and that was one attempt to recoup. Actually, I'm sure I still have the CDs but we got rid of all of our records when we moved.

Jenny, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 19:22 (thirteen years ago) link

xp Unless you count the one who was a bf and then not a bf and then 10 years later briefly served as my roommate and left a lot of stuff w me when he moved away. I use that shit every day and am grateful for it, but there never were any bad associations cos we were friends anyway.

Q: What's small, clumsy, and slow? A: A toddler. (Laurel), Wednesday, 8 September 2010 19:23 (thirteen years ago) link

I have nothing like this.

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Wednesday, 8 September 2010 19:24 (thirteen years ago) link

Also I've been living w/ the same dude for 10 years and hadn't dated anyone too seriously for a few years prior to that so most remnants from any exes is long gone.

Jenny, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 19:30 (thirteen years ago) link

likewise
except i have 11 years under my belt and i did have some bf's before that, but none of them gave me/loaned me anything of value because they were total bums.

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Wednesday, 8 September 2010 19:36 (thirteen years ago) link

person with whom i have shared the last 11 years: not at all a bum

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Wednesday, 8 September 2010 19:37 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah I have some stuff from an ex but we are still friends so it's kind of just stuff he let me have. The only ex that is completely out of the picture never gave me anything worth while anyway so I don't have to worry about that. Booyaaaaaaaa

peacocks, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 19:39 (thirteen years ago) link

oh, well I see that you ladies already covered the bum ex boyfriend zing, but still. Booyaaaa.

peacocks, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 19:39 (thirteen years ago) link

Tons of bookshelves (since discarded) and a Muji file cabinet (still in use) from one ex who moved from here to NYC. Otherwise, they tend to end up with random things of mine.

maintenant avec plus de fromage (suzy), Wednesday, 8 September 2010 19:40 (thirteen years ago) link

I have some stuff from an ex but we are still friends so it's kind of just stuff he let me have.

this is not a mediating factor, really, presumably the guy's an ex for a reason!

sarahel, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 19:41 (thirteen years ago) link

sunny is not a dude! xposts

i would like a kick-ass drill but don't really have a serious need for one

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 8 September 2010 19:42 (thirteen years ago) link

oh, sorry! I should have known that! I thought it would be funny if guys started posting here. I kind of tend to assume that everyone on the internet is a guy. That's probably not cool, but hey.

xp to sarahel: yeah, the tv is pretty functional, as are other things. I don't stare at it and weep or anything because HE gave it to me (I will stare at the tv and weep because something on the screen is really sad or touching though, just to be clear)

peacocks, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 19:46 (thirteen years ago) link

Sometimes relationships don't work out but after the breakup you can still be friends if nothing too ridiculous led to said breakup. Or the person joins the ranks of the emotionally mature a few years later, as with one ex of mine in particular.

When exes say 'hey, can you use this laptop? I'm upgrading' I AM SO THERE. Or have been on three occasions, anyway. *This* computer is untainted BTW.

maintenant avec plus de fromage (suzy), Wednesday, 8 September 2010 19:49 (thirteen years ago) link

my most recent ex was a real fan of useful gifts - now that we're broken up, i appreciate this fact, because it's easier to look at fingerless gloves (useful for practicing drums in a practice space that does not have heat) or a coathanger bent for the purpose of unclogging drains - as being purely functional and having no sentimental value than things that are more typically "romantic"

sarahel, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 19:52 (thirteen years ago) link

the only thing i let him have of mine was the percolator, which we'd occasionally argue about whether it "worked ok" - he believed that only being able to fill it half-way with water in order to make something even vaguely resembling coffee = worked ok. I emphatically disagreed.

sarahel, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 19:54 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah I had to give away a load of hallmark-y stuffed animals from one ex last time I moved. I don't know why I was holding on to them because it wasn't hard at all to let them go.

my step dad has given my mom a flashlight on almost every gift giving occasion since they started dating in 1987. He is the king of useful gifts and my mom and I have adapted and inherited this trait from him.

peacocks, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 19:55 (thirteen years ago) link

i have a half-dozen flashlights and swiss army knife-like tools due to the practical gift-giving habits of both my ex and my mom

sarahel, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 19:57 (thirteen years ago) link

at least you'll be prepared for the end times.

peacocks, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 19:58 (thirteen years ago) link

Stuffed animal gifts would, for me, be a BIG deal-breaker. Plus 'shall we make a fake Mike Kelley sculpture on the front of this garbage truck'?

maintenant avec plus de fromage (suzy), Wednesday, 8 September 2010 20:00 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah, they were stuff like valentines gifts and little things won out of that stuffed animal claw grabber thing at denny's. I had two consecutive bfs who swore they were the best at those things and they never let me down.

peacocks, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 20:02 (thirteen years ago) link

seriously! like it's a joke in my family about how boring the christmas gifts my mom gives us are. she'd sometimes feel bad when we joked about it, though. So one year I decided we'd turn it into a contest - The Most Boring Christmas Present contest - so it would be funny, which made mom feel better.

Winners of L family Most Boring Christmas Present contest:

5 lb plastic tub of mashed potato flakes
copy of previous year's IRS Publication 15 - Individual Income Tax Guide
plastic laundry basket
cardboard box

sarahel, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 20:04 (thirteen years ago) link

These relationships largely took place in south florida btw. xp

That is so excellent. cardboard box, lol. I'm always super psyched about the useful gifts I get because usually they are SO VERY USEFUL. My grandmother emails to ask exactly what we all want on any given occasion.

peacocks, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 20:06 (thirteen years ago) link

well, the cardboard box was a gift from dad to mom - and he had ordered something for her online, but he was new to the concept of online gift purchasing - so the gift hadn't arrived by christmas - so he wrapped a box approximately the size of the gift and put a note as to what should have been in the box. I think we had a semantic argument about what the gift "was" - whether the gift was the box + thing that should have been in the box or whether we should restrict it to the physical box. I think we decided that the gift was the cardboard box itself, just so there'd actually be a year when dad "won" the most boring christmas present contest.

The contest ended the year i regifted the 5 lb plastic tub of potato flakes back to my mom - so that item technically won twice

sarahel, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 20:11 (thirteen years ago) link

hahaha. this convo reminds me that I want to get better at giving gifts.

peacocks, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 20:12 (thirteen years ago) link

i also think that through the years, my mom has given me every promotional item given to their customers by American Ag Credit

sarahel, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 20:13 (thirteen years ago) link

my dad and step mom go to costco and get whatever they see that identifies as "for girls"

peacocks, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 20:14 (thirteen years ago) link

your parents actually go shopping together?

sarahel, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 20:15 (thirteen years ago) link

I get mad at my mother when she gives me things that are not pretty or useful, on the basis that she can't afford much so might as well spend it on something I actually *want*. We did not speak for six months because she sent me the most hideous 'soft' briefcase - choosing to escalate the argument by telling me this object was 'expensive' was not a winning rhetorical gambit on her part. Me: 'so you spent $500 on something that is actively embarrassing and not usable for work because of the active embarrassment factor and you want me to respect that? LOL, U GOT SOLD A PUP.'

My mom and her siblings have a tradition of re-gifting (hate that word) a really ugly porcelain milk jug in the shape of a rooster every few years. Seriously would've rather had Ugly Cock than the horrible briefcase.

maintenant avec plus de fromage (suzy), Wednesday, 8 September 2010 20:16 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah, I think so. I don't really see those parents often.

peacocks, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 20:17 (thirteen years ago) link

I think I would die if I didn't speak to my mom for 6 months.

peacocks, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 20:19 (thirteen years ago) link

i was really annoyed by the American Ag Credit duffel bag my mom gave me one year - but it's actually probably the most functional piece of luggage i own, and it will be what i pack all my stuff in and take on my first vacation in 10 years - to NYC next month

sarahel, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 20:19 (thirteen years ago) link

my mom would not let me not speak to her for 6 months - she'd start leaving an escalating series of phone messages of concern about my welfare, culminating in questions about whether i'd prefer burial or cremation

sarahel, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 20:21 (thirteen years ago) link

a cardboard box? sarahel your mom is hilarious

suzy, you're a tough customer.

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Wednesday, 8 September 2010 20:26 (thirteen years ago) link

I love my mom and her siblings's regifting traditions because both of their parents are dead now so any family "heirloom" no matter how tacky is reminiscent of days gone by and therefore much treasured by all even for its humor value. I like to think they've struck a good balance there.

Q: What's small, clumsy, and slow? A: A toddler. (Laurel), Wednesday, 8 September 2010 20:28 (thirteen years ago) link

my dad was the giver of the cardboard box. he was kinda sad when mom opened it and confusedly asked, "You got me a cardboard box for Christmas? I know I can and will use it, but ..."

sarahel, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 20:29 (thirteen years ago) link

xp And yes, sometimes that INCLUDES decorative boxes shaped like log cabins or something, that have been making the rounds for decades and probably have the original grandparent's handwriting still on them from Christmas 1978.

Q: What's small, clumsy, and slow? A: A toddler. (Laurel), Wednesday, 8 September 2010 20:30 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah - if you have a positive attitude towards that type of thing, it's kinda great - like for several years my mom's sister gave her picture frames for Christmas - every year, picture frames - and my mom doesn't really have a use for them - she didn't get butthurt over it, though. She approached it like a game - how do i get my sister to stop giving me picture frames - but without telling her, which would have made my aunt feel a bit silly, because she'd been giving my mom picture frames for years. So the next Christmas, my mom got her sister a picture frame, and after that mom received no more frames.

sarahel, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 20:35 (thirteen years ago) link

We love the Ugly Cock in our family. I think it was given to my uncle first, and sort of makes its rounds.

My mom is unhealthily close to my sister (a couple of years ago I wondered if they might be a bit co-dependent and got SCREAMED at, which I translated as a direct hit) and we can go two months without speaking if I do the 'let's not phone and see what happens' experiment. She runs a business with my sister and they are often on the phone for hours talking about whatever bullshit undereducated Republican voters talk about, and my sister's basket case of a husband.

We were both being really stubborn - this was in pre-Internet times - and I think she knew I was struggling to save for a Mac, so seeing an entire month's rent go up in ugly smoke made me angry enough to risk the whole You Ungrateful Child schtick. Me: 'ungrateful? Please shoot me when I am grateful for preventable ugly stuff, because that would be a REAL problem.'

Last Christmas gift for my mom was an Alvar Aalto dish, FYI. Small, tasteful, useful *and* sufficiently expensive.

maintenant avec plus de fromage (suzy), Wednesday, 8 September 2010 20:38 (thirteen years ago) link

is the cost of a gifts a "thing" in your family? it's something that some of my family gets concerned with - there's a definite income disparity between some family members, but we're very much a "give according to your means" type of family with "it's the thought that counts" as the main ideology behind gift-giving. One year i was totally broke, and gave my mom the entire set of D'Oyly Carte Gilbert & Sullivan records i'd gotten for free at my library job in college. And she was just as happy to get that - even knowing that it didn't cost me anything - than if i'd given her something i'd paid a bunch of $$ for.

sarahel, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 20:42 (thirteen years ago) link

We do not own a single flashlight.

sarahel, I like your family's sense of humor.

Last year for xmas, we agreed to go for simple, inexpensive gifts and my mom bought me a sage green sweater and a lavender henley shirt (for those who don't know me: not my style) that were approximately three sizes too small (and from a retailer that does not carry plus sizes, so no exchanging). She's seen me in the last five years and claims to like me, so I'm not too sure what all that was about.

Jenny, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 20:52 (thirteen years ago) link

oh, mothers. my mom is so weird about delusions about the kinds of clothing that will fit me. like, her old clothes, which are often adorable, but she is like half my size.

horseshoe, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 20:54 (thirteen years ago) link

My mom used to only have style delusions but now she has size delusions, too. This year I'm asking for dish towels.

Jenny, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 20:57 (thirteen years ago) link

that's really weird, Jenny! (your mom's gifts to you) - the only clothing my parents feel comfortable giving me (as in, i'd appreciate the gift) is socks, and i'm the kind of person that buys socks that are all the same. But still, sometimes my dad will get me a "variety pack" of socks that are each different, because that seems like a "nicer" gift - and i generally don't have the heart to tell him - no, really, the only socks i wear are the World's Softest Socks in black - and not the thin knee-length ones - i'm sorry i'm so boring, but that's just the way i am.

sarahel, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 20:59 (thirteen years ago) link

i think when the end times come, i will hide underneath a large mass of dish towels - my mom gives me dish towels every year.

i take back the clothing thing though - i'm sure in the near future, i'll be the recipient of an American Ag Credit t-shirt

sarahel, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 21:01 (thirteen years ago) link

Hahah my mother just a few months ago sent me a trio of socks: three socks that are all related in prints/style but not exactly the same. I guess if you're a manic pixie dream girl, you're supposed to SWITCH IT UP and wear two of the three socks at a time in various color/pattern combinations. I was like, you're okay with getting these back, right?

Why is my built-in spell-check flagging "combinations"? Am I looking over a 4-leaf clover?

Q: What's small, clumsy, and slow? A: A toddler. (Laurel), Wednesday, 8 September 2010 21:02 (thirteen years ago) link

My mom sent me a package once that had a note on with a single sentence: 'it's not Christmas without UNDERWEAR, love MOM'.

Money spent on gifts being somehow 'not enough' only gets trotted out when we are fighting about something else, and never by me. I have a policy of response to that which is 'guess what? You're getting nothing next year and you can go around telling all your friends how unfair that is until they ask how you provoked it' and then there is much backing down. My mom often manufactures an argument with one or the other of us so she can say Christmas: Ruined and the non-argued-with daughter is encouraged to attend her pity party (I did not play along when my sister was 'responsible' for Christmas: Ruined two years back).

maintenant avec plus de fromage (suzy), Wednesday, 8 September 2010 21:08 (thirteen years ago) link

wow - that's a lot of drama over an occasion that's supposed to be happy! The only thing remotely close to dramatic in-fighting we had at Christmas was when my grandmother complained that certain family members not be allowed prominent solo verses during the traditional Christmas carol singing because their voices are horrible and they are constantly off-key

sarahel, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 21:11 (thirteen years ago) link

as adults, me and my cousins have reappropriated the "kiddie table" exile we faced as children, and remade the kiddie table - "the place to sit" - so the older generation will get jealous of the one person of their era that gets to sit with us.

sarahel, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 21:12 (thirteen years ago) link

my mother is the worst gift-giver in the entire world, ever since my childhood. there are only about 5 times in my whole life where she has gotten me a decent gift.

my mother-in-law, otoh, is FANTASTIC - she's made/bought me a lot of gorgeous jewelry, perfectly fitted to my tastes; last birthday i got an ipod; as a housewarming gift she gave me (us, i guess, but really me) this breathtakingly beautiful chip n dip set - which sounds lol but it's handmade, from a mixture of something like shattered glass and ceramic, in beautiful shades of green (i should take take a pic of it, it's so pretty and elegant).

i am a terrible giftgiver but i've just discovered the joys of bookmarking stuff on etsy when i come across things i think my friends/family would like.

just1n3, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 21:14 (thirteen years ago) link

that doesn't sound lol at all - it sounds super nice

sarahel, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 21:14 (thirteen years ago) link

i really should post a pic - it's one of the nicest 'decorative' things i've ever seen. i mean, i would never buy it for myself in a million years, 1. bc i'm pretty sure it was super expensive and 2. that's not the kind of thing i buy. but that is also what makes it such a great gift.

omg some of the wedding gifts we got... one is a lead crystal 'sculpture' filled with something like paint streaks, which i refer to as the Glass Uterus, due to it's shape O_o

just1n3, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 21:17 (thirteen years ago) link

i totally wanna see a pic of the Glass Uterus!

sarahel, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 21:18 (thirteen years ago) link

though i guess you could invite me over, and i could see it in person, lol

sarahel, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 21:19 (thirteen years ago) link

ok i will do photos tonight! i guess it's a 'nice' thing, if you like that kind of thing... it's just so far removed from my tastes. although it has grown on me a little. jordan had it in his carry-on luggage and it caused a bit of fluster with with security ppl bc it appeared as a blank (lead crystal).

xp but we're not neighbours anymore :/

just1n3, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 21:21 (thirteen years ago) link

we don't even live in the same county anymore!

just1n3, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 21:21 (thirteen years ago) link

do you live near the Target?

sarahel, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 21:22 (thirteen years ago) link

Just1ne, that uterus sounds like Murano glass.

Go look at Xmas 2008 refugee thread, that one was terrible. I'm home once a year and friends here have a sweepstakes for the *hour* the first fight happens (ie. '46 hours into the visit, FITE!' This year's winner is CARLOS'). My big sin is speaking to a cousin she's boycotting for insufficient desire to take her life advice. I've pointed out that she's the person with grudges and swerves in her life, not me, and they're adding up to 'guess who's the unreasonable one?'

maintenant avec plus de fromage (suzy), Wednesday, 8 September 2010 21:24 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeeeeeeah, conceptual-type art seems like a v risky gift, I gotta say.

It might grow on you. Or it might just be hideous.

Q: What's small, clumsy, and slow? A: A toddler. (Laurel), Wednesday, 8 September 2010 21:25 (thirteen years ago) link

xp sarah: we live a few blocks from del norte plaza - near the richmond target, which is fwiw a good target to go to if you don't like crowds.

just1n3, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 22:00 (thirteen years ago) link

lol the security lady at the airport, after we pulled it out, was all 'OMG THIS IS SOOOO BEAUTIFUL', she was so impressed!

just1n3, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 22:02 (thirteen years ago) link

I asked my mom for socks two years ago and she got me six pairs of nice wool socks... in Christmas colors and patterns. I tried explaining that in Chicago, we wear socks in months other than December but then she got all momguilty so I dropped it.

Dish towels all the way. Can never have too many dish towels, right sarahel?

Jenny, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 22:02 (thirteen years ago) link

we also got one of the carved wooden bride/groom figurines too - so cheap and ugly-looking.

but the best surprise gift we got was this antique bookend contraption; i can't reallly explain it better than that, but it's really beautiful, and i thought it was a really thoughtful gift from ppl we don't even know that well.

just1n3, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 22:05 (thirteen years ago) link

god i wish my mum would buy me something as useful as socks or dishtowels!

just1n3, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 22:05 (thirteen years ago) link

speaking of gifts: i just ordered some bulgari perfume from strawberrynet on a whim, bc it was on sale and i love the bulgari white. however i have no idea what this one is like, so if i don't like i'll send it to anyone (in the US) who would like it.

just1n3, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 22:09 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah, don't get me wrong. My mom is generally A+ but she tries to make every Christmas Very Special and so on 12/23 when she realizes she hasn't done any shopping, she pays exorbitant overnight shipping rates for the first thing she spies in a random catalog.

Jenny, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 22:11 (thirteen years ago) link

xp this thread makes me really look forward to the holiday season.

I am too impatient to keep gifts in my closet until Christmas or whatever. I'll buy something that seems just right, and then I'll give it as a gift—happy March! Or something. I would rather give gifts because they seem well suited to the recipient rather than out of obligation. Last time I did that, I gave my mother a piece of jewelry that made her cry, because it was beautiful, and because it was personal and sentimental to her. I was so delighted when I found it that I knew I couldn't save it till Christmas. (http://www.etsy.com/transaction/8780267—Ihad it made into a lapel pin for her–Cala lilies were her wedding bouquet)

But then my mother gets butt hurt when I don't get her Christmas presents, so I end up getting an extra present for the actual holiday. I should just stash things away and be patient when it comes to my mother.

And then every holiday I have to dance around which gifts I hate the most, because I can't have her return everything. So I have a lot of pastel colored shirts that look like maternity wear, and various pullovers that are reminiscent of Muppets. (“It is… so soft! And what a color!”)

JuliaA, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 22:11 (thirteen years ago) link

I'm sure when you can look up butthurt in the dictionary there will be a small Daguerrotype image of my mother, chain-smoking, as an illustration.

maintenant avec plus de fromage (suzy), Wednesday, 8 September 2010 22:15 (thirteen years ago) link

Jenny's word “momguilt” is a great mom–specific synonym.

JuliaA, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 22:21 (thirteen years ago) link

My mum always buys me practical gifts, especially these days, as she knows I'm always broke and that I appreciate practical things. Also, her taste in clothes and understanding of my tastes is abysmal, even after all this time. I love her and I feel terrible when she picks out something that I know she put time into buying but is just so off-base.

Parents are pretty broke now too (close to retirement, mum not working) so I dont really expect anything - most fam just give me gift vouchers these days.

queen of the toilets, which is in some ways the worst branch of royalty (Trayce), Wednesday, 8 September 2010 23:38 (thirteen years ago) link

suzy, as a mom, you're scaring the hell out of me right now

sunny successor, Thursday, 9 September 2010 17:17 (thirteen years ago) link

lol omg suzy

peacocks, Thursday, 9 September 2010 18:03 (thirteen years ago) link

a trio of socks: three socks that are all related in prints/style but not exactly the same. I guess if you're a manic pixie dream girl, you're supposed to SWITCH IT UP and wear two of the three socks at a time in various color/pattern combinations

I have some sets of socks in different patterns of the same 2 colours, and one morning I was having trouble finding a pair in the overstuffed sock drawer, so I thought, hey, I will be a manic pixie dream girl and switch them up! Then mr spacecadet asked why I was wearing odd socks and I went "uhh" and decided it was safer to feign surprise and go and change them.

And so ended my life as a manic pixie dream girl.

vampire headphase (a passing spacecadet), Thursday, 9 September 2010 18:32 (thirteen years ago) link

OK I have no idea what a manic pixie dream girl is but I rarely wear matching socks. I have so many single ones that if they're close enough I just don't care. It's probably rarer to find me wearing socks that go together. My pants are all long enough so that you don't really see my socks even when I'm sitting so I figure it's not that important.

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Thursday, 9 September 2010 18:35 (thirteen years ago) link

^ and I don't wear socks very often.

peacocks, Thursday, 9 September 2010 18:36 (thirteen years ago) link

Spotters' guide to the manic pixie dream girl: Defend the Indefensible: films in which gorgeous, independent, "edgy" women have nothing better to do than break uptight whiny squares out of their bubbles

I still think Laurel's pack of THREE unmatching socks is kinda nutty but then I am a square I guess

(though since it is the rule of packs of different, paired socks that one sock will instantly go missing I guess it doesn't make any less sense than a regular pack)

vampire headphase (a passing spacecadet), Thursday, 9 September 2010 18:42 (thirteen years ago) link

http://img.timeinc.net/people/i/2006/specials/sma06/sma_international/james_mcavoy.jpg

OMG! heh

KATbike, Thursday, 9 September 2010 18:49 (thirteen years ago) link

welcome my friend kat to the 'no boys allowed' thread. she is my best gal friend that ain't my sister. that is her posting a hot guy above...

i am giving you the caesar salad of compliments (Nijoli), Thursday, 9 September 2010 18:49 (thirteen years ago) link

i <3 him

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Thursday, 9 September 2010 18:53 (thirteen years ago) link

mesmerizing

peacocks, Thursday, 9 September 2010 18:54 (thirteen years ago) link

and welcome!

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Thursday, 9 September 2010 18:54 (thirteen years ago) link

Hi Kat!

Who is that guy?

Jenny, Thursday, 9 September 2010 19:07 (thirteen years ago) link

i had a dream about that guy once and after this dream, i liked him more

in my class today one of my students broke down crying while talking about all of the (genuinely) horrible things she has been through. during this episode her eye makeup (rather elaborate) stayed perfectly in tact. she's a very aggressive mary kay saleswoman and after we had comforted her a little, i told her that her makeup still looked perfect, and it did.

in sum, mary kay cosmetics: good for crying, will not let you down

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Thursday, 9 September 2010 19:30 (thirteen years ago) link

ps hi kat :)

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Thursday, 9 September 2010 19:30 (thirteen years ago) link

hi.

james mcavoy

p.s. it's also illegal! (KATbike), Thursday, 9 September 2010 19:32 (thirteen years ago) link

I'm venting to the lay-deez because I am hoping for a sympathetic audience here, I will admit.

Blarg. Okay, so I'm listening to NPR (National Public Radio for those of you not in the USA) this morning and they do two stories w/in five minutes of each other. The first was a story about how it is good for baby boys to gain weight in the first six months of their lives because they will grow up to, get this, be tall, reach puberty sooner, and having more sex partners than baby boys who don't gain weight in the first six months. Okay, okay, so seriously, I know that we're all supposed to be losing sleep at night because we're SO FAT but is there really any debate that babies need to put on weight? And how fucked up is it that like, three weeks ago I caught the tail end of a fear mongering news segment about how girls are reaching puberty sooner (and one of the reasons posited was because of childhood obesity) and how that is going to RUIN EVERYTHING, and don't get me started about slut shaming. FTR, this segment was narrated by a man, and the study was done on babies and then men in the Phillipines, and the science experts they interviewed were men.

Then, five minutes later, there's a segment about the dreaded "freshman 15" (the so-called 15 pounds that women gain their freshman year of college) that started with the information that it's really the freshman five, and then went on to go into great length about how important it is to avoid gaining this five pounds (even though freshman in college are 17 or 18 and arguably not done growing yet), suggesting that students restrict their portions and engage in stress-relieving activities like, as one freshman interviewed suggested, taking an exercise class every day. The narrator, the experts, and all of the freshmen they interviewed were women.

So, to recap:
Boys should gain weight so they can grow up to reach puberty and have lots of sex partners.
Girls should restrict their food and exercise every day so they can avoid gaining five pounds. Also they are sluts (implied).

Maybe this just struck a nerve because I restricted my food intake and exercised every day and subsequently lost a freshman 20 due to, as it turns out, an eating disorder but way to piss me off first thing in the morning, NPR. Assholes.

Jenny, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 13:56 (thirteen years ago) link

You make me feel so Not Crazy, Jenny, because otherwise it's just me getting all het up about one unfairly manipulative thing after another in my world.

I don't listen to NPR so I didn't hear either segment. I'm sure you're right about every inference made on both shows -- even on "lefty" (lefty-ish?) radio. But also the people who made the programs didn't know about each other, and didn't plan an overarching moral message, both sides just happen to both be so goddamn NORMATIVE that it works out that way.

Also everyone involved are idiots -- yes, pre-natal and post-natal care and feeding are (so I've read) strongly related to health and height later in life. You think they could do a story about how much WORSE people turn out if their mothers don't have adequate health care and/or nutrition??

Q: What's small, clumsy, and slow? A: A toddler. (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 14:14 (thirteen years ago) link

hi kat. you have excellent taste. <3 mcavoy

horseshoe, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 14:15 (thirteen years ago) link

Jenny, that kind of thing would infuriate me, as well.

cymose corymb (Karen D. Tregaskin), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 14:17 (thirteen years ago) link

ugh, Jenny. glad i missed that segment. to be honest whenever i hear "weight" or "obesity" or "fat" on tv/radio news i turn it off.

horseshoe, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 14:17 (thirteen years ago) link

ditto. I can't believe the "Freshman 15" is still a thing (I don't know what would lead me to believe that it would ever stop being a thing, wishful thinking?). That would have pissed me right off. I did almost exclusively feast on totinos pizza and white cheddar cheezits during my first semester which wasn't too healthy but if someone had said to me "watch out for that freshman 15, girly" I would have eaten 2 boxes of cheez its that night instead of the 1.

peacocks, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 14:41 (thirteen years ago) link

Also can I tell you, I hate the Taco Bell ad where the two douchey office drones tell the HILARIOUSLY non-English-speaking Hispanic "sandwich lady" that Taco Bell's chicken something-or-other is one-fifth the price of her home-made sandwich and tastes better, too! And then she gets all ANGRY at them for BREAKING UP WITH HER SANDWICHES like SHE is somehow OPPRESSING these sympathetic young white men in blue shirts and ties.

Oh yeah, god forbid we spend our office drone wages on a home-made sandwich made of actual FOOD ITEMS, that supports a real person who started with nothing and (humor my dramatic tone for a second) could be struggling day-to-day to lift her family out of poverty. No, a mega-corporation that puts seaweed fillers in their "meat", they DEFINITELY have your best interests at heart and besides, it's WAY better for your cool dude image.

Q: What's small, clumsy, and slow? A: A toddler. (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 14:42 (thirteen years ago) link

How weird, back in the dawn before time when I went to college, the "Freshmen 15" was considered something that boys got, not girls. At least that was my memory of it.

cymose corymb (Karen D. Tregaskin), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 14:45 (thirteen years ago) link

I hate this ad even more because it's on during Family Guy and I HATE Family Guy.

Q: What's small, clumsy, and slow? A: A toddler. (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 14:45 (thirteen years ago) link

I've never seen that taco bell ad but I'm pretty sure I hate it. I also hate Family Guy.

The Freshman 15 was def a girl thing in Delaware in 1990.

Jenny, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 15:10 (thirteen years ago) link

Maybe I misunderstood what it was about. I guess it was more of a unisex thing back then? Or did I just go to too "PC" a school for it to have much impact on my surroundings? I kind of miss how naive I used to be back then, in some ways. With regards to this stuff, or being aware of it. These days the anger over any disproportionate pressure for women with regards to weight makes me so angry it's almost hard to view anything with any degree of objectivity.

cymose corymb (Karen D. Tregaskin), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 15:17 (thirteen years ago) link

actually, I did have a really bad male friend (who I'm still sort of friends with and who still gives terrible advice) who told me one of our female friends from high school was eating only peanut butter and losing a bunch of weight (she had been chubbs in h.s.) and that I could try that. I thought about it.

peacocks, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 15:22 (thirteen years ago) link

*should

peacocks, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 15:22 (thirteen years ago) link

*should*?!??!?

Christ, that's the kind of friendly suggestion that would end up with me swinging a hammer at someone's head.

Back then, that is. These days I'm a lot more reasonable and a lot less violent and provokable.

It's really amazing the amount of vicious woman-hating that just gets dressed up as concern trolling over weight. Like, if someone is talking about girls "needing" to lose weight, it doesn't matter what actual words are coming out of their actual mouth, all I hear is "I hate women, I really hate women, I despise women and their inconvenient bodies and I want them to be as nothing as humanly possible, in fact, inhumanly possible would be better."

It's amazing how deep an anger it still provokes in me. And actually quite sad, because I'm totally unable to hear any other message, even if the person giving it is actually trying to be helpful or suggesting something that would be healthy. There's just this hammer-swinging teenager inside that gets engaged - and yeah, I know there are a lot of people trying to trigger that kind of irrationality because it makes it easier to upset or control you.

cymose corymb (Karen D. Tregaskin), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 15:32 (thirteen years ago) link

I can swing a good hammer but usually on other people's behalf and not as much for my own benefit or defense.

peacocks, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 15:39 (thirteen years ago) link

I think it's a good thing to keep the hammer on the inside, while on the outside, you just smile and nod, with that expression that makes it very clear that hammer swinging is happening on the inside.

cymose corymb (Karen D. Tregaskin), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 15:42 (thirteen years ago) link

I advocate swinging an actual hammer. Okay maybe not but I'm tired of being polite to jerks.

Jenny, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 16:20 (thirteen years ago) link

I advocate swinging an actual hammer.

It does build shoulder and upper arm muscles which make you look better in strapless or sleeveless dresses or tops! </semi-sarcasm>

On the other hand, if you develop those muscles, you end up having clothes-fitting issues, and other issues - always issues

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 19:13 (thirteen years ago) link

Major SMH moment at work - D4vid B4il3y has photographed a lot of men w/clothes on and women w/clothes off plus really crap abstracts which our founder says is 'a meditation on life, death and the ages of man' so why is it necessary to Veruschka-paint one model's tits to be eyes, one open, the other shut?

Answers on a postcard please. Editor and art director are also creped out by this.

trollin' with the homies (suzy), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 19:16 (thirteen years ago) link

i heard that first npr story and it was boring/stupid enough for me to turn off the radio and listen to music on my commute to work. instead i relaxed to the sounds of the incredible string band, and this turns out to have been a wise decision. nothing like being told "hey there ho-chunk, stop eating!"

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 19:27 (thirteen years ago) link

Actually, according to my kid's pediatrician (who is head of pediatrics at our hospital), height and weight under the age of two are determined by nutritional factors. After 2y/o its about genetics (assuming diet is average). He cited as an example a fellow Dr in his clinic who is very short and rotund and married to a woman of similar stature. Their baby between 0-2 was in the 95% percentile for height but once she reached 2 the genetics kicked in and she ended up being a short kid. Beats was sort of the same. PP and I come from families of average to short heights. Beats between 0-2 was literally off the chart with regards to height and weight (v tall) but once she hit two she stopped growing at the same rate. I think in the last 1 1/2 years she's put on no weight at all and has grown a few inches. Her diet hasn't changed except maybe she eats more at night time now and she actually seems to get hungry, which she didn't ever do as recently as 6 months ago. She also about the same activity-wise. She is now in the 65 percentile for both which genetically makes a lot more sense. Anyway, I haven't bothered to look for any studies supporting this.

Also freshman 15 has always been about girls.

dolphins will lolphin all over the ills (sunny successor), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 19:30 (thirteen years ago) link

i wonder how much of it (this freshman 15 thing) is based on students that live in dorms on a central campus - vs. students that live at home and go to a commuter school, or go to commuter schools in general

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 19:31 (thirteen years ago) link

a lot i think. in australia none lives in dorms and most college freshmen still live with their parents. i think its a moving out of home thing more than a college thing

dolphins will lolphin all over the ills (sunny successor), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 19:33 (thirteen years ago) link

none = noone

dolphins will lolphin all over the ills (sunny successor), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 19:33 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah, that is 100% all it is

lol all-nighters, pizza, nonstop stress eating at the caf, watching romcoms with yr nasty girlfriends after a mighty pillowfight

(i lived at home during my freshman year)

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 19:35 (thirteen years ago) link

It's about having a dining hall that serves a multitudes of foods, all the time, with no limits on how much a student eats once he/she has checked in at the door. Not sure how many schools have exactly that kind of set-up anymore, where every dining hall item is basically bottomless? Anyway. No one makes you eat your vegetables, and Mom isn't there to say, "Dear, don't you think you should skip breakfast today?" if you retain a little water.

Kind of outdated I'd say, but not likely to go out of the general lexicon anytime soon when we can still imply that girls, left to their own devices, are all naturally secret porkers.

Q: What's small, clumsy, and slow? A: A toddler. (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 19:36 (thirteen years ago) link

i didn't eat very much, got plenty of sleep, and walked around a lot because it was a new place, and going for long walks is a thing to do when you don't have friends.

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 19:37 (thirteen years ago) link

xp - oh yeah, the dining hall thing - i think a lot of people just ate huge amounts of pasta, cereal, cheese, snacky/treaty stuff, because everything that was remotely healthy was also kinda gross from being under heat lamps.

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 19:38 (thirteen years ago) link

Uh it's also often a sudden increase in calories due to alcohol and the subsequent pizzas ordered at 2:00 am.

master of retardment (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 19:44 (thirteen years ago) link

oh yeah, forgot about the alcohol!

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 19:48 (thirteen years ago) link

I didn't gain any weight in college, but crucially I have never been a beer-drinker.

trollin' with the homies (suzy), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 19:51 (thirteen years ago) link

I know my eating habits definitely changed because of the things listed above but I'm pretty sure the single biggest reason I gained weight my freshman years was going from drinking 0 alcohol ever really to drinking at least a few beers most nights. Those calories are going to add up eventually. See also smoking pot and getting the munchies.

master of retardment (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 19:52 (thirteen years ago) link

my (first time round) college days were my skinniest. it's been downhill ever since.

just1n3, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 19:53 (thirteen years ago) link

did you have friends/others to get you beer? i put on the weight sophomore year when i was conveniently dating a 21 year old. i just remember starting college at 17, my first freshman roommate was also 17 - and we had to figure out how to buy cigarettes.

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 19:54 (thirteen years ago) link

I've dropped out of college three times and been kicked out of nursing school once. All four times were at commuter schools. I've gone from 130 to 180 in 15 years.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 19:56 (thirteen years ago) link

No, wait, 1990-2010, 20 years.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 19:58 (thirteen years ago) link

Sarahel - I was only 17 when I started college too but we'd go to a lot of parties at upperclassmen's houses and I also got a fake ID that was accepted at the 3 bars that were within walking distance from campus. It was actually my learner's permit that I'd just written over the date with colored pencils. SO BAD and yet they just didn't care.

master of retardment (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 19:59 (thirteen years ago) link

wow! i was such a goody-two-shoes! i didn't even think of/conceive of getting a fake ID

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:00 (thirteen years ago) link

i have never been a beer-drinker - strictly wine or vodka when i was younger.

just1n3, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:00 (thirteen years ago) link

I was just isolated and depressed so I hid in my room watching adult swim and posting to a certain other message board. and duh, eating cheezits. I don't think I gained any weight though because I'd go to the gym every day and watch felicity reruns on the eliptical machine. I DID gain weight during my junior year when I was taking 16 credits and working.

Never have been a big drinker, so that wasn't a problem. My first boyfriend that was over 21 would kind of babysit me and trained me to know my limit I think. Looking back I guess that was controlling behavior but eh, now I know when I've had enough. I also just have never cared about drinking or getting drunk.

peacocks, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:05 (thirteen years ago) link

Sarahel - TBH I was a complete goody goody until I got to college and then went a little off the rails. That said, nearly every kid I knew had fake IDs. There was a guy in the dorm who could alter them and charge you $10 to do so. It was sort of weird but I spent two years going to bars regularly from 17-19 and then when I transferred to school in NYC my Junior year was sort of fucked as far as going out was concerned. Learner's permits altered using colored pencils def didn't fly there.

master of retardment (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:08 (thirteen years ago) link

When I was cashiering at a chain hardware store, I got an ID from a young woman that had a small hole punched through the date. I wish I could have overlooked it--she was over 18, it's wasn't her fault that the US has such an unreasonably high drinking age, and she wasn't buying alcohol anyway--but I couldn't take the risk. (I just quietly told her that I couldn't accept it and sent her on her way.)

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:08 (thirteen years ago) link

another thing that never occurred to me as a college student: having a tv in my room. My parents never let me have a tv in my room, and i was kinda anti-tv as a teenager, because - of a lot of things that would just end up derailing the thread.

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:09 (thirteen years ago) link

Oh, freshmen (and sophomores too) had to live on-campus in supervised dorms at my college, and it was a dry campus with strict penalties. So beer intake was not the reason for anyone's weight gain.

Q: What's small, clumsy, and slow? A: A toddler. (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:11 (thirteen years ago) link

OK, I know I come from another planet and all, but the idea that someone's *mum* would actually say "honey why don't you SKIP breakfast" is so completely o_0 to me. Probably just from having it drilled into my head so much as a child that breakfast is the most important meal of the day and if you skip breakfast, like, your brain will develop a giant hole in it where all the information will leak out or something.

I dunno. I never lived on campus and actually when I moved away from home I lost a ton of weight because I no longer had a car and lived in NYC and had to walk everywhere so actually none of it makes any sense. Which is why I guess I assumed that it was talking about boys.

Because I did notice a lot of boys who came home from Uni heavier than they went. Beer, mostly, I guess.

cymose corymb (Karen D. Tregaskin), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:11 (thirteen years ago) link

x-postsss to Chistine regarding hole in ID - Yeah well when it came time for me to take my actual driving test I tried to erase the pencil and put a hole right through it. Stupidly I handed it to the guy administering the test that way. He made me do the whole test but confiscated my permit, wouldn't give me my results, and scared the shit out of me by saying I might be charged for falsifying my ID. I had to go to the DMV a week alter to pick up the results and was basically shitting myself the whole time thinking I was going to get arrested. I did not. I'd passed and he ha put a huge smiley face on the paper with a note cautioning me to be more careful next time.

master of retardment (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:12 (thirteen years ago) link

skip breakfast? the beauty of college vs. high school was that i could sleep in until 10am or 11am and only take afternoon and evening classes!

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:13 (thirteen years ago) link

oh yeah, E, and pizza! We had a campus pizza place - i worked there my first semester - it taught me a lot about class and work - like it doesn't matter if the customer knows you are a peer, if you have to wear a stupid hat, it automatically puts you on an inferior level to them.

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:16 (thirteen years ago) link

I don't think anyone's mom DOES suggest skipping breakfast anymore, thank goodness! I sort of meant that to be a relic of bygone and more discriminatory days.

Q: What's small, clumsy, and slow? A: A toddler. (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:17 (thirteen years ago) link

OK, I know I come from another planet and all, but the idea that someone's *mum* would actually say "honey why don't you SKIP breakfast" is so completely o_0 to me. Probably just from having it drilled into my head so much as a child that breakfast is the most important meal of the day and if you skip breakfast, like, your brain will develop a giant hole in it where all the information will leak out or something.

ha yeah i thought that was strange too. my mom to this day quizzes me about my breakfast habits from the other side of the planet saying EVERY SINGLE TIME 'skipping breakfast makes you fat!!' (being thin is much much more important than a functioning brain where im from)

dolphins will lolphin all over the ills (sunny successor), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:18 (thirteen years ago) link

That license was one of the newer ones made of plastic, BTW.

I've met very few women who eat breakfast.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:18 (thirteen years ago) link

what days were those, Laurel? Like the sacrosanctity of breakfast is pretty old.

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:18 (thirteen years ago) link

i like to eat breakfast at 3pm or 3am

dolphins will lolphin all over the ills (sunny successor), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:19 (thirteen years ago) link

sunny otm

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:19 (thirteen years ago) link

I stayed pretty much underweight during 3 years of Uni, despite completely embracing the student cliche of eating kebabs for lunch, going to Abdul's after a night out, and living off ready meals, vodka, and fried-egg sandwiches. It was when I finished and started eating more healthily that I started putting a bit of weight on. I was a skinny minnie all my life until about 23 so I've always been aware how much an effect age and metabolism can have. Now of course I've been through a period of going to the gym 3x a week, walking 2 miles every day and eating relatively well, and I can't shift any weight unless I really decide to cut out all the bad food I allow myself in moderation.

Not the real Village People, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:20 (thirteen years ago) link

the idea that someone's *mum* would actually say "honey why don't you SKIP breakfast" is so completely o_0 to me.

welcome to my world! i stopped eating breakfast from about 13 onwards: my mother was never a breakfast eater and never cared whether i ate it or not. in fact, she regularly told me how fat i was (lol @ this coming from a woman who wore probably a size 20), even though i most definitely wasn't until i was in high school. then in my final year of hs i lost tons of weight and she ~~accused~~ me of having an eating disorder (i didn't - i just lost my appetite and the baby fat melted off).

just1n3, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:21 (thirteen years ago) link

I've always eaten breakfast, mostly because I'm always hungry when I wake up. I can't skip breakfast now, anyway, because my lithium has to be taken with food at the same time each day.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:22 (thirteen years ago) link

my husband pretty much makes me eat breakfast now

just1n3, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:22 (thirteen years ago) link

xp Woh thanks - you just reminded me to take my medication :)

Not the real Village People, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:23 (thirteen years ago) link

Breakfast is, to this day, sacrosanct for me. Like, if I absolutely *had* to skip a meal, I'd skip dinner, but that'd be more likely because I was going out and didn't have time. Skipping breakfast means that COUNTDOWN TO CRANKY is on its way and is a surefire way for me to be scatterbrained and pissed off the rest of the day.

cymose corymb (Karen D. Tregaskin), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:23 (thirteen years ago) link

oh just1n3 - that sounds awful! my mother was never concerned about my weight (she is also fairly large, but pretty healthy and content) - she would regularly call me in college and neurotically ask if i was pregnant. That really smarted when I was depressed because i didn't date/have boyfriend.

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:24 (thirteen years ago) link

Karen otm. I have to eat breakfast or I get moody and sick to my stomach. This morning I only had a little yogurt left and was all scowly until after lunch.

peacocks, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:25 (thirteen years ago) link

i find if i eat when i first wake up im hungry for the rest of the day but if i dont eat first thing then i can happily go all day without eating

dolphins will lolphin all over the ills (sunny successor), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:25 (thirteen years ago) link

scowly on the inside. you know, the hammer thing. xpost

peacocks, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:26 (thirteen years ago) link

i usually don't get hungry at all until after i've been awake for at least 5 hours.

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:26 (thirteen years ago) link

but then i start the day with a large cup of coffee and a half dozen cigarettes so ...

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:26 (thirteen years ago) link

I need to be up for at least an hour or so before I get hungry (and I've tried to make myself eat breakfast when I'm not, like if I know I won't have a chance to eat all morning, and it makes me feel sick). But I also am incapable of getting up in the morning until the last possible second. When I was at work I used to eat cereal when I got in which was ideal but now I don't bother eating until midday so find I've "skipped" breakfast because I'm a lazy arse. OTOH if I can't eat dinner for some reason - usually going out straight after work or something, unable to leave to get food - I get grouchy as hell and can't focus on anything else for more than 5 seconds other than 'when can I eat dinner'.

Not the real Village People, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:28 (thirteen years ago) link

My friend is going to this holistic medicine person because she has some intense nutritional problems and this person told her that different types of people need to focus on food for different parts of the day. She said she's a fire personality so she needs to make lunch her biggest meal of the day.

peacocks, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:28 (thirteen years ago) link

good luck staying awake in afternoon meetings then :) (this used to be a HUGE problem for me)

Not the real Village People, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:29 (thirteen years ago) link

My mother was nagging me about my weight when I was 125-130, but I just tuned it out--it was just another one of the many, many things that she was neurotic about.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:29 (thirteen years ago) link

Ha ha, peacocks, I totally know about the scowly on the inside! Hammer time!

Bowl of mueslix with some fruit and some nuts for protein, slow release, keep me going until mid afternoon.

cymose corymb (Karen D. Tregaskin), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:29 (thirteen years ago) link

what are "intense nutritional problems" - like she's pathologically afraid of food that isn't white or yellow?

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:30 (thirteen years ago) link

also I think I'm a kind of food snob and cereal holds no interest for me, so I like to wait until lunch when I can legitimately eat a sandwich (which holds much interest for me).

Not the real Village People, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:31 (thirteen years ago) link

i used to go days without eating, when i was in my early 20s (just out of laziness, really), but in the last couple of years i just can't do that anymore: i've really gotten used to eating breakfast, and i start feeling sick if i don't eat it. in fact, i've gotten used to eating 3 regular meals a day, and feel sick if i skip one.

xp to sarahel: i have told some awful stories about my mother on ilx - i 'love' her i guess, but she is/was extremely ignorant, lacking in compassion, somewhat spiteful/malicious, jealous... she's gotten a lot 'nicer' in the last few years but there are still things that tempt me on a regular basis to cut all contact with her.

just1n3, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:31 (thirteen years ago) link

My friend is going to this holistic medicine person because she wants to acquire some intense nutritional problems

Fixed.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:32 (thirteen years ago) link

125-130? Saying you're over weight? How tall are you?

Sarahel- it's more intense digestion problems that intensely affect her nutritional intake.

peacocks, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:32 (thirteen years ago) link

cereal can be good - i like putting fruit on it - just plain cereal is not very exciting, except in the wee hours

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:32 (thirteen years ago) link

Oh god I don't know re breakfast. When I was little, breakfast was liable to be like pancakes and bacon and eggs and orange juice and glasses of milk. Not every day of course but sometimes it was, like, how you might imagine FARMHANDS would eat. You might benefit from those calories at age 5 in the winter during a growth spurt but you prob don't need that anymore at age 20 when you're sitting in class/a heated dorm room?

Was thinking of the "mom" type in this book of stories I used to have -- they were like "stories to live by" for teen girls, published in the '50s or something. So ymmv x infinity.

Q: What's small, clumsy, and slow? A: A toddler. (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:34 (thirteen years ago) link

My dad was always the one harping about my weight as a kid. Being 12 and ordering a choloate shake AT STAKE AND SHAKE and he would say "are you sure you want to eat that?"

peacocks, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:34 (thirteen years ago) link

Muselix with fruit and nuts is lush. And I hate cereal.

cymose corymb (Karen D. Tregaskin), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:34 (thirteen years ago) link

125-130? Saying you're over weight? How tall are you?

5'5".

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:35 (thirteen years ago) link

xp - aw that sucks, my dad would be sad if i didn't want a milkshake - when mom worked late, we'd sometimes go to Foster's Freeze and get burgers and shakes, because they had like 15 different flavors of shakes. I think my dad was/is still kinda like a kid in many ways.

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:36 (thirteen years ago) link

I have been so into starting my day by eating oatmeal then going & lifting weights. I've done it for over a week & it feels great. I just want to eat oatmeal for every meal, it's the only food I like lately.

Mormons come out of the sky and they stand there (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:38 (thirteen years ago) link

Jees, Christine. That is totally a slender healthy weight for that height.

peacocks, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:39 (thirteen years ago) link

i'm really into having smoothies that are vanilla yogurt + banana + strawberries + rose water

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:39 (thirteen years ago) link

oatmeal rules! I'm way into yogurt and granola right now. rose water smoothies holy wow that sounds good.

peacocks, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:40 (thirteen years ago) link

i eat oatmeal for breakfast everyday and for lunch at work like 4x a week! but there is exactly one brand of instant oatmeal that i like, although i have tried approx. 7 different types and they all seem repulsive. i am extremely lazy about food, hate cooking but unfortunately am also super fussy and have low tolerance for eating the same thing all the time.

just1n3, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:40 (thirteen years ago) link

i also blame this on my mother, since she was the worst and least inventive cook in the world and fed me strictly microwaved food from 3-18yrs of age.

just1n3, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:41 (thirteen years ago) link

which brand is that? what is your fav flavor, if any?

just1n3! we are child diet twins!

peacocks, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:42 (thirteen years ago) link

uhoh thats what beats gets

Dude you HAVE no quran! (sunny successor), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:42 (thirteen years ago) link

my mom gave me an inferiority complex because when i was growing up, she probably worked like 70 hours a week, cooked a lot (she is a really good cook), and kept the house pretty tidy - i have never been capable of doing all of those things.

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:42 (thirteen years ago) link

it is one particular type from trader joe's, maple syrup flavour but they have two kinds so it's easy to get the wrong one by accident! xp to peacocks

just1n3, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:43 (thirteen years ago) link

but my mom did try to make food sometimes, we were just really busy. She got really into cooking after I moved away to college and even more so after she retired. She makes excellent food now.

peacocks, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:43 (thirteen years ago) link

sunny!!!!!!!

just1n3, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:43 (thirteen years ago) link

i don't think my mom will ever really retire.

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:44 (thirteen years ago) link

well, my mum was a stay at home mum from when i was 7-13, so i don't what her excuse was. but this is also the same person who would regularly give me a double helping of frozen corn bc she knew i hated it so much i couldn't even stand the smell.

just1n3, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:44 (thirteen years ago) link

when she went back to work, i had to take over about 75% of cooking duties, but since i had no one to learn from and we didn't own pots/pans, and she bought things like mince/sausages/carrots/cabbage/potatoes every week, i didn't have much choice but to follow in her footsteps.

just1n3, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:46 (thirteen years ago) link

the frozen corn thing - wtf? my mom would occasionally play little games to see whether she could sneak certain ingredients she liked but knew me and my dad weren't fond of into meals to see if we could detect them.

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:46 (thirteen years ago) link

Man, I need to get back into eating oatmeal for breakfast again. It will be nice now that the weather is cold again. Yay.

cymose corymb (Karen D. Tregaskin), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:46 (thirteen years ago) link

omg i had to sit at the table and eat everything on my plate. even if it took hours. i developed a cool trick of swallowing things whole with gulps of water, like pills, so i wouldn't have to taste it.

just1n3, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:47 (thirteen years ago) link

that sounds kind of horrid. I don't think I've ever had mince. I ate in a rush or fast food in the car a lot.

peacocks, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:48 (thirteen years ago) link

xp Haha totally did that. Had to sit at table for hours even into HIGH SCHOOL because I've hated peas all my life and there was no forgiveness for not cleaning your plate. Therefore, down the hatch with several glasses of water.

Q: What's small, clumsy, and slow? A: A toddler. (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:49 (thirteen years ago) link

i think the closest i ever came to having an eating disorder was the summer before 7th grade when it was really hot and i was depressed and i pretty much just ate sourdough toast and popsicles

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:49 (thirteen years ago) link

Oatmeal kicks ass. I can't stand instant, actually. I stayed at my mom-in-law's house recently, who said she'd buy me oatmeal, and she got instant. And my husband said, "Oh, that's not the kind she likes," so every day she & I had some stupid conversation about how I was a horrible, insufferable snob.

Mormons come out of the sky and they stand there (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:49 (thirteen years ago) link

i tried a few different types of 'real' oatmeal but it was too... rich? and too nutty and too chunky. the stuff i like is really bland and soft and mushy, with the merest hint of sweetness. it's nothing-food, which i love bc i don't have to think about it while i eat it.

just1n3, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:51 (thirteen years ago) link

what? even my dad can make regular oatmeal (which he does when my mom isn't around to cook him breakfast). I don't think i've ever had instant oatmeal.

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:51 (thirteen years ago) link

the frozen corn thing - wtf? my mom would occasionally play little games to see whether she could sneak certain ingredients she liked but knew me and my dad weren't fond of into meals to see if we could detect them.

That's a very, very bad idea, because sometimes the reason why a kid doesn't like a food is that they are allergic to it.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:52 (thirteen years ago) link

Oh god, I *hated* that "you can't leave the table until you have eaten everything on your plate" thing. Like, way to give your child an eating disorder.

Most of the time, I was fine because I had a healthy appetite and would eat whatever, I was quite adventurous. But I would refuse, point blank, to eat fish. And I would refuse to eat it until bedtime. And the next morning that fish would be served for breakfast and I would refuse to eat it then.

But then my mum would give in and not make me eat the fish because going without breakfast was worse than not eating fish.

Then I turned out to actually have been allergic to fish all along so I was all nee-ner nee-ner.

cymose corymb (Karen D. Tregaskin), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:52 (thirteen years ago) link

ha! x-post to Christine. OTM.

cymose corymb (Karen D. Tregaskin), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:52 (thirteen years ago) link

there was a kid at my preschool who was allergic to strawberries - and i thought that was a really weird thing to be allergic to.

i was never made to clean my plate growing up - if i didn't like something or if i was full, i could stop eating. But, if this was at a restaurant, my mom would make me eat the "expensive part" - as in, "At least eat the rest of the shrimp, pasta is cheap."

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:54 (thirteen years ago) link

my step mom once told me veal was chicken so I would eat it. She laughed at me when she told me the truth. Way to go, step-mom.

lol @ sarahel's mom. I like her style.

peacocks, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:56 (thirteen years ago) link

My mother-in-law used to be fanatical about getting my husband to eat oatmeal for breakfast each day. (This was during the first time she lived with us, about 15 years ago.) Eventually he snapped and said, "Oats, oats, oats! What am I, a horse?"

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:56 (thirteen years ago) link

What was Dr Johnson's definition? Oats: fed to horses, cattle and the Scots?

cymose corymb (Karen D. Tregaskin), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:58 (thirteen years ago) link

as many problems as i had with my parents when i was growing up, even through my 20s - now i feel like i did pretty well in the parents department. it still bugs me the way they watch tv when i go there to visit (they still live in the same house i grew up in). I know i couldn't stay there for more than 2 days without going insane, and that is entirely due to past history and ingrained habits and responses - like some sort of specific antibodies i developed as a child/teenager. Like anyone else that was not raised by my parents would be like, "What's your problem? Why are you annoyed by this?"

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:00 (thirteen years ago) link

My aunt once had a three-day standoff with my grandfather over uneaten oatmeal - and ultimately won - so my mom never pulled that move, also chemo made me a fussy eater who nevertheless liked vegetables so for a multitude of reasons I was never forced into a battle of wills over food, and I can pretty confidently say that I never heard my dad, my uncle or my grandfather a) call a woman fat/ugly for any reason b) say no to a malt or a milkshake - they are responsible for me having mad diner/soda fountain skills. LOL at sarahel - my mom has a version of that called the Meatectomy.

I loved breakfast cereal but we were emphatically not allowed 'sugar cereals' unless they came in one of those variety packs where there was 5 Cheerios/corn flakes options and one tiny box of Sugar Pops - which, obviously, my sister and I would practically have fistfights over. Food was kind of rationed for most of the time I was in high school because my mom was long-term sick and off work, so she'd buy things with specific meals in mind and we'd be in deep shit if we just ate something random out of the fridge or picked at something left-over. If there was six of an item, we'd get yelled at if we ate more than two. Up until I went off to college, my mom was a sugar policeman at home - no ready-made foods, no margarine or diet meals, no 'white trash' goods like Tang and Spaghettios or basically anything eaten in abundance at my grade-school best friend's house - but she would buy bakery-made brownies for 'treats' and make really good Scandinavian and spritz cookies for Christmas.

Once they were left to their own devices, my mom and sister started eating a load of crap. I came home to find Cheetos and Coco Pops at the top of a junk food mountain.

trollin' with the homies (suzy), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:03 (thirteen years ago) link

What was Dr Johnson's definition? Oats: fed to horses, cattle and the Scots?

That was before the days of steel-cut oats. If you try to grind oats like you would any other grain, you get something that cooks up into a disgusting clumpy mess.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:04 (thirteen years ago) link

beats and i have a good relationship. i dont like to cook and she doesnt like to eat. (xps)

Dude you HAVE no quran! (sunny successor), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:06 (thirteen years ago) link

I loved breakfast cereal but we were emphatically not allowed 'sugar cereals' unless they came in one of those variety packs where there was 5 Cheerios/corn flakes options and one tiny box of Sugar Pops - which, obviously, my sister and I would practically have fistfights over.

ME TOO! My mother - as some sort of educational activity - made a rule that i could only have cereal if sugar was not the first or second ingredient, except for those variety packs. Losing the variety pack lottery = having to eat the bran flakes.

One of the bad girls i was friends with in 2nd grade - her name was Amy - and her mom bought her & her sister Cookie Crisp. I thought that that must be what people from Soviet Bloc countries must feel like when they visit the West.

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:07 (thirteen years ago) link

ugh school lunches were even more depressing than the breakfast options

just1n3, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:09 (thirteen years ago) link

i mean, we usually had the option of cornflakes OR weetbix, occasionally rice bubbles, all of which you could at least drown in sugar, but lunch options... i feel depressed thinking about it.

just1n3, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:10 (thirteen years ago) link

my mom still does not understand that i hate canned tuna

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:10 (thirteen years ago) link

my choices: marmite or jam or pb on bread. sometimes an apple or an orange. sometimes homebaked cookies.

just1n3, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:11 (thirteen years ago) link

like if i had to live a real life version of "No Exit" with just me and parents in the house i grew up in - hell would be never being able to escape the smell of canned tuna.

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:12 (thirteen years ago) link

i mean, we usually had the option of cornflakes OR weetbix, occasionally rice bubbles, all of which you could at least drown in sugar, but lunch options... i feel depressed thinking about it.

― just1n3, Tuesday, September 14, 2010 4:10 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark
this was us too but to this day i still eat weetbix drowned in brown sugar (just not in the morning because i usually lapse into a sugar coma.)

also lunch of choice for me was vegemite and cheese sandwiches

Dude you HAVE no quran! (sunny successor), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:20 (thirteen years ago) link

I feel like I ate peanut butter & jelly sandwiches for 10 years but I'm sure that's not true, I'm sure my mom tried to put in some tuna and once in a while, sandwich meat, but PBNJ was cheaper. A lot cheaper. The bread was always preservative-free and from a local bakery, bought one day old in bulk and frozen. The peanut butter either came from the organic food co-up which was SO NOT HIP back in those days, it was like a shack in the bad part of a neighboring city, where they could afford a little space to sell like dried herbs and 23-grain hippy shit in bulk. You had to bring your own containers iirc. The jelly was frequently home-made so SHUT UP AND STOP WHINING I know I know but I kind of hate PBNJ now.

Q: What's small, clumsy, and slow? A: A toddler. (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:27 (thirteen years ago) link

Oh I was gonna say: the peanut butter was either co-op or the "healthy" stuff from the normal store where all the oil collects at the top and you have to stir it endlessly. No sugar added, is the important thing.

Q: What's small, clumsy, and slow? A: A toddler. (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:29 (thirteen years ago) link

Billions of xposts (I'll go back and read properly later) but the first thing the NPR story said was that there really isn't a freshman 15. New college students gain an average of five pounds their first year, so the whole premise of the story was flawed.

Jenny, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:30 (thirteen years ago) link

One of the bad girls i was friends with in 2nd grade - her name was Amy - and her mom bought her & her sister Cookie Crisp. I thought that that must be what people from Soviet Bloc countries must feel like when they visit the West.

I TOTALLY felt this way about instant mashed potatoes at one friend's house -- my favorite food and I didn't have to wait until Thanksgiving/Christmas/Sunday dinner to have it!!!! Unfortunately after what was probably 3-4 normal servings, they made me feel sick. At least real potatoes just make you FULL.

Q: What's small, clumsy, and slow? A: A toddler. (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:34 (thirteen years ago) link

oh man my mom to this day considers instant mash potatoes a sign of the middle class apocolypse. she hand mashed potatoes every night. such a good irish girl.

Dude you HAVE no quran! (sunny successor), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:37 (thirteen years ago) link

many many xposts later

i'm really into having smoothies that are vanilla yogurt + banana + strawberries + rose water
i am TOTALLY INTO EATING THINGS THAT TASTE LIKE FLOWERS. my dream is to have a garden full of edible flowers and also edible other foods.

new favorite fancy food thing:

v thin whole grain water cracker topped with goat chz, then rose petal jam, then a thin slice of crisp apple

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:47 (thirteen years ago) link

also butter cookies with orange flower water in them and date filling

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:48 (thirteen years ago) link

both of those sound totally delicious!

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:48 (thirteen years ago) link

or fig and rose petal jam crepes

all three of these things are TOTALLY DELICIOUS

anyway i didn't learn anything from my mom about cooking or eating aside from hide your dexatrim somewhere the kid won't find it

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:49 (thirteen years ago) link

it's like there is nothing more decadent on earth than eating FLOWERS

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:49 (thirteen years ago) link

the one thing that prevented my mom from being a total 80s superwoman type is that she had no self-discipline about food. She would try various diets, then decide that she really liked food, and she'd rather be fat and happy eating what she wanted, than be thin and eating depressing weight watchers meals.

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:51 (thirteen years ago) link

I remember a period when I was probably about 12, addicted to cream crackers + cheese, also toast + butter + lime marmalade or pineapple jam. I'd make 2 pieces then straight after I'd eaten them go and make another 2, and so on.

Not the real Village People, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:52 (thirteen years ago) link

that's how i was with the sourdough toast! same age.

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:53 (thirteen years ago) link

I don't like things that taste like flowers, but I will remember that LL does, and I'll have a worthy recipient if anyone else ever gives me a box of rose- and violet-flavored chocolates.

Q: What's small, clumsy, and slow? A: A toddler. (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:54 (thirteen years ago) link

i had a summer of bread and popsicles too. for me it was whole wheat bread with strawberry jam, age 15. froz fruit bars.

OMG i would pee my pants for some violet chocolates.

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:55 (thirteen years ago) link

and i don't even like chocolate that much

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:55 (thirteen years ago) link

Things I did not eat because chemo made them pukesome: canned tuna, baked beans, egg yolks, fat on meat, peanut butter, PBJ sandwches, bread crusts.

Things my mother did not feed us because they were trashy foods for trashy people: Kool-Aid, Tang, Wonder bread, Spaghettios, Chef Boy-ar-dee, McDonalds, actually the list is endless and maybe if she still reinforced class through food we wouldn't be discussing her girl-crush on Sarah Palin, etc.

Only ready-meal allowed in the house: Stouffer's macaroni and cheese. Possibly the best mac'n'cheese (available from a grocer's freezer) in the world.

This is not to say my mother disapproved of fast food. She is a huge fan of Wendy's and I can usually find a Frosty going polar in the freezer when I'm home. Also, the one time my mother got stoned enough to get the munchies she drove to Taco Bell, got to the intercom and told the server 'I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME.' When she got back her friend explained to her about 'munchies'.

trollin' with the homies (suzy), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:56 (thirteen years ago) link

hahaha oh man, that's funny

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:57 (thirteen years ago) link

suzy - explain more about the "meatectomy" - this sounds like something i should tell my mother about this weekend when we celebrate her 65th birthday. I asked her if she wanted to go to IHOP, because they have senior discounts - and that was met with a quick, "Ha ha. .... No."

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:58 (thirteen years ago) link

Suzy, sometimes I think our mothers are each other's light and dark sides.

I've got ten bucks, surprise me. (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:59 (thirteen years ago) link

I'm sure I've mentioned that I was SO EXCITED to have Ramen Noodles in college. So excited, that I PANICKED that the package didn't say how much water you're supposed to add, and I couldn't find anyone to ask, and I realized I DID NOT KNOW (and this was pre-internet in yr dorm, so...). Imagine my relief when I realized you just submerge them and drain it off later.

I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 22:05 (thirteen years ago) link

what? i always ate mine like soup.

i have the sort of schedule that allows me to mix a cocktail for myself at 5pm if i please, and this is what i made in honor of drinks that taste like flowers:

gin
lime
orange la croix sparkling water
teeny bit of rose water
put a piece of beet (that i was cutting up for dinner) in it to make it pink, then removed it leaving the drink the shade of pink lemonade. (-sugar/+flowers)

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 22:13 (thirteen years ago) link

Meatectomy is almost self-explanatory - on the rare occasions I could not finish my dinner, in the same manner as sarahel's mom, mine would 'let me off' if I finished all the protein. Because of my anti-yolk stance she acted as if she'd died and gone to heaven when she discovered Tupperware made a yolk separator. Your mother may also appreciate the genius move on her part in restaurants - she'd challenge me and my sister to 'get a 10' for good behaviour in restaurants and never rated us above a seven, even if we were total angels.

My mom has a lot about her that is very cool (chases and catches burglars, the 'munchies' story, supernatural ability to win at slots in NA casinos) but I think her late sister was a positive influence on her politics and with my aunt gone, she's got no peers who'll call her on her rightward drift. My aunt lived four houses away and had grape-filled trellises and a garden the size of a swimming pool. In the '70s she made soup from golden cherry tomatoes and dusted it with parmesan, did Chinese New Year dinners and generally led culinary expeditions, which I wish my mom would do somewhere that doesn't serve Monte Cristos.

trollin' with the homies (suzy), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 22:42 (thirteen years ago) link

it's like there is nothing more decadent on earth than eating FLOWERS
hahaa totally! a few weeks ago i was in chinatown with a guy friend and we got these chinese baked goods, kinda like shortbread - mine was lotus flavoured and was mauve coloured, his was green tea flavoured and was light green coloured. he was like, 'this is gross', so gave it to me - it tasted like jasmin flowers! it was super weird, but i loved it, or the experience of it. i love food that doesn't really taste like food. which prob means i just like ideas more than food, lol.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 23:02 (thirteen years ago) link

i would drink that drink like now

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 23:03 (thirteen years ago) link

LL - I love things that taste like flowers. Ppl used to think it was so gross that I love violet candies but to me they're amazing! Also love floral drinks. There's a bar here that does a lavender and lemon cocktail that is my fav ever.

master of retardment (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 23:26 (thirteen years ago) link

you all need to get your hands on some rose petal preserves
it is seriously nectar of the gods

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 23:36 (thirteen years ago) link

Never had it. Brand rec?

master of retardment (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 23:40 (thirteen years ago) link

xps ^me too! Rose turkish delight <3 also honey lavender ice cream <3

Not the real Village People, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 23:42 (thirteen years ago) link

I LOVE Turkish Delight. I would probably pass out if I had honey lavender ice cream.

master of retardment (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 23:44 (thirteen years ago) link

xp honey lavender ice cream sounds amazing. (I'm curious about the Rose preserves as well–where do you buy that?)

JuliaA, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 23:44 (thirteen years ago) link

Violet candies are amazing. Jasmine tea is amazing. I haven't had much more of the others, but I'm willing to try.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 23:54 (thirteen years ago) link

Oh yeah, I'm a big jasmine tea fan.

master of retardment (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 23:54 (thirteen years ago) link

http://www.victoryseeds.com/candystore/images/chowards/chowards_violet.gif

I can eat a whole roll of those in minutes.

master of retardment (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 23:55 (thirteen years ago) link

those make my face itch like fuck! bleeaarrg

kate78, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 23:57 (thirteen years ago) link

i got the rose preserves at the middle eastern market on foster
brand: kafkas

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3555/3281853303_31926e7103.jpg

honey lavender ice cream sounds AMAZING

i made lavender-rosemary syrup several times and used it in various cocktails
delish -- you get the flowery and the herby at the same time!

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Wednesday, 15 September 2010 00:16 (thirteen years ago) link

flowery and herby are basically my two favorite flavors aside from mango

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Wednesday, 15 September 2010 00:17 (thirteen years ago) link

You all need to get to know SAFFRON GIN.

trollin' with the homies (suzy), Wednesday, 15 September 2010 00:52 (thirteen years ago) link

suzy, that sounds amazing.

Mormons come out of the sky and they stand there (Abbbottt), Wednesday, 15 September 2010 00:54 (thirteen years ago) link

aw, i'm just not a gin person.

sarahel, Wednesday, 15 September 2010 00:54 (thirteen years ago) link

mmmmmm that sounds delicious
what do you mix with it?

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Wednesday, 15 September 2010 01:16 (thirteen years ago) link

Tonic, lemon, a shit-ton of ice = this drink is called a SAFFIE.

trollin' with the homies (suzy), Wednesday, 15 September 2010 01:20 (thirteen years ago) link

God I want a sloe gin & tonic sooo bad right now

Not the real Village People, Wednesday, 15 September 2010 01:27 (thirteen years ago) link

I've found that I like the taste of some types of alcohol after decades of wincing whenever I tried to drink. At 42, is it too late for me to start drinking socially without becoming an alcoholic?

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 15 September 2010 02:15 (thirteen years ago) link

it's never too late to start

sarahel, Wednesday, 15 September 2010 02:17 (thirteen years ago) link

Are you sure of that? I don't think I've ever heard of anyone who started after 22 or 23 or so that didn't end up with a drinking problem.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 15 September 2010 02:21 (thirteen years ago) link

why would you end up with a drinking problem? Generally, isn't it people who start drinking early that end up as alcoholics?

sarahel, Wednesday, 15 September 2010 02:21 (thirteen years ago) link

What? That just sounds crazy. There is not reason that starting to drink later in life should cause it to be a problem for you unless you are genetically predisposed to alcoholism.

master of retardment (ENBB), Wednesday, 15 September 2010 02:21 (thirteen years ago) link

should have read "no reason"

master of retardment (ENBB), Wednesday, 15 September 2010 02:22 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah surely you're kidding, right?

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Wednesday, 15 September 2010 02:23 (thirteen years ago) link

i started drinking late in life and am not an alcoholic fwiw

horseshoe, Wednesday, 15 September 2010 02:26 (thirteen years ago) link

i didn't start drinking until i was 15

sarahel, Wednesday, 15 September 2010 02:26 (thirteen years ago) link

We need to have a flower food&drink fap

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 15 September 2010 02:28 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah that saffron gin is beautiful. would drink.

horseshoe, Wednesday, 15 September 2010 02:29 (thirteen years ago) link

You haven't read about the people with stories that include phrases like "They called me the Coca-Cola girl until I was 25..." "I was 30 and got a job that required me to socialize...." I used to run into them all of the time. Or is this yet another old, outdated pattern of life?

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 15 September 2010 02:31 (thirteen years ago) link

sounds like a crummy excuse to me

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Wednesday, 15 September 2010 02:31 (thirteen years ago) link

i dunno - but from my experience with going to dinners and parties with my parents and grandparents, the older generations were quite capable of putting 'em away and being socially functional.

sarahel, Wednesday, 15 September 2010 02:32 (thirteen years ago) link

i started drinking late in life and am not an alcoholic fwiw

How late?

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 15 September 2010 02:34 (thirteen years ago) link

Christine I really don't think there is any correlation between people who don't drink until they're older and alcoholism. If there is I've certainly never heard of it.

master of retardment (ENBB), Wednesday, 15 September 2010 02:36 (thirteen years ago) link

You may be right, I need to check the literature about it.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 15 September 2010 02:38 (thirteen years ago) link

i mean, even if there is, you can always make a concerted effort to drink responsibly

sarahel, Wednesday, 15 September 2010 02:39 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah and I just did a cursory search and it seems that if there is any relationship between age at first drink and risk of alcoholism it's for those who start drinking at a really early age. I honestly don't think you have anything to worry about if you want to enjoy a drink or two socially.

master of retardment (ENBB), Wednesday, 15 September 2010 02:42 (thirteen years ago) link

Thank you--I've always felt a mixture of guilt and mild fear whenever I drank or saw someone drink that's never lined up with anything that's happened in my life. It's faded away for the most part, but it comes out when I least expect it.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 15 September 2010 02:46 (thirteen years ago) link

i think i was 25ish?

horseshoe, Wednesday, 15 September 2010 03:06 (thirteen years ago) link

The words "late in life" and "25ish" don't seem to go together somehow, but thanks for the answer.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 15 September 2010 03:11 (thirteen years ago) link

We need to have a flower food&drink fap

This sounds like a wonderful idea.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 15 September 2010 03:13 (thirteen years ago) link

Well, late compared to teenage drunkards like sarahel and yours truly. xp

Jenny, Wednesday, 15 September 2010 03:14 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah, i just meant late in comparison with most drinkers...honestly don't see much of a difference between 25 and 42 in this context.

horseshoe, Wednesday, 15 September 2010 03:28 (thirteen years ago) link

i had some lavender chocolate tonight! :)

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 15 September 2010 03:38 (thirteen years ago) link

somehow i only got truly drunk for the first time when i was 18, met a cute boy who became my bf for a few months, had a hangover for easter sunday breakfast :/
smoked weed and did acid etc way before that tho

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 15 September 2010 03:42 (thirteen years ago) link

i had some lavender chocolate tonight! :)

Yay! What brand, and where can we get it?

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 15 September 2010 03:44 (thirteen years ago) link

smoked weed and did acid etc way before that tho

Smoked weed at 25 and dropped acid at 26. And I'm the only person on ILX that has never been drunk.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 15 September 2010 03:46 (thirteen years ago) link

i don't know - it was my friend's chocolate - fancy $ stuff! will inquire

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 15 September 2010 03:52 (thirteen years ago) link

And I'm the only person on ILX that has never been drunk.

No you're not, but he can't post on this thread so ...

sarahel, Wednesday, 15 September 2010 03:58 (thirteen years ago) link

Add "other than Rufus" to my statement, then.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 15 September 2010 03:59 (thirteen years ago) link

I want there to be a liqueur made from rose petals. Seriously. Find me such a thing, please ILX.

cymose corymb (Karen D. Tregaskin), Wednesday, 15 September 2010 09:29 (thirteen years ago) link

there must be such a thing - my brother got given a liqueur made from poppy petals for his birthday, so, you know, they have the technology.

camphor jars (c sharp major), Wednesday, 15 September 2010 10:27 (thirteen years ago) link

it tastes like cough syrup, not flowers at all :(

camphor jars (c sharp major), Wednesday, 15 September 2010 10:28 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah, but poppies in general don't taste very nice. They're eaten for their effect, not their taste. Unlike roses.

cymose corymb (Karen D. Tregaskin), Wednesday, 15 September 2010 10:35 (thirteen years ago) link

sorry but this just reminds me of
Bart:'Go eat some flowers'
Homer: 'My secret shame!'

Dude you HAVE no quran! (sunny successor), Wednesday, 15 September 2010 17:13 (thirteen years ago) link

A lot of my husband's diet during his parents' divorce consisted of rose petals and fruit gathered from his neighbor's yards.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 15 September 2010 17:31 (thirteen years ago) link

so long as he didn't steal radishes from the witch next door

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Wednesday, 15 September 2010 17:32 (thirteen years ago) link

Oh, now I know why he's...oh, wait....

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 15 September 2010 17:33 (thirteen years ago) link

I just had the most unexpectedly delightful evening with the most unlikely person.

A conversation I was expecting to be awkward and a bit weird turned out to be incredibly fun and entertaining.

:-)

Karen D. Tregaskin, Thursday, 16 September 2010 22:39 (thirteen years ago) link

aw :)

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Thursday, 16 September 2010 22:44 (thirteen years ago) link

Oooh, am intrigued.

trollin' with the homies (suzy), Thursday, 16 September 2010 23:11 (thirteen years ago) link

when you eat beets and you have reddish pee - do you ever do a double-take and think briefly that your period might have started? This happened to me at least once.

sarahel, Friday, 17 September 2010 07:50 (thirteen years ago) link

I have never had reddish pee from eating beets! Or at least I've never noticed.

Karen D. Tregaskin, Friday, 17 September 2010 09:03 (thirteen years ago) link

This is gonna be one of those days, isn't it? When I'm bored out of my mind and there's no action of any depth on ILX as distraction and I'm really wishing we could some of shallow chat about breakfast cereal or haircuts to take me out of the funk I've got myself into.

Should I get my hair bobbed like I had when I was 8 again, or will I miss my ridiculously long hair? It is two foot long but it's got so thin at the ends from being dyed too much.

Karen D. Tregaskin, Friday, 17 September 2010 11:06 (thirteen years ago) link

Just trimming the ends isn't an option ?

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 17 September 2010 12:05 (thirteen years ago) link

Bored, just want a change.

Karen D. Tregaskin, Friday, 17 September 2010 12:06 (thirteen years ago) link

Cut it! Drastic hair changes are great fun.

Jenny, Friday, 17 September 2010 13:57 (thirteen years ago) link

Yep. I vote cut too!

master of retardment (ENBB), Friday, 17 September 2010 14:00 (thirteen years ago) link

i'm gonna have to come down on the side of trim it. i will never have hair that is 2 feet long and oh! the things i would do with my hair if it were long and beautiful! i dream about it sometimes. if you cut it, at least donate it so that someone can have a wig.

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 17 September 2010 14:04 (thirteen years ago) link

I only have a really old grainy polaroid type photo from the 70s but I found it recently and just thought it was a good length.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4092/4974373120_af586275ac_o.jpg

But it would involve
1) cutting about a foot and a half off my hair
2) finding a hairdresser I trust enough to cut a foot and a half off my hair because I haven't had a haircut in, like, 5 years

Then again, considering how that above haircut was probably administered, I could just wait another week until my mum gets here and present her with a pudding bowl and a pair of scissors.

Karen D. Tregaskin, Friday, 17 September 2010 14:05 (thirteen years ago) link

You said you weigh 200 pounds, right? If you get your hair cut short it will make the rest of your body look bigger because you don't have that extra hair on top as a balance.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 17 September 2010 14:05 (thirteen years ago) link

Christine, you're such a *tactful* person.

Karen D. Tregaskin, Friday, 17 September 2010 14:06 (thirteen years ago) link

My mother had my hair cut that short at about the same age you did--as a punishment. (I can't remember what I was being punished for, but I kept the style for a couple of years.) I need to get a trim today because a couple of people have asked me to send them a picture.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 17 September 2010 14:11 (thirteen years ago) link

Christine, you're such a *tactful* person.

??? I'm just saying what I've noticed with my hair and other women's hair.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 17 September 2010 14:15 (thirteen years ago) link

You said you weigh 200 pounds, right? If you get your hair cut short it will make the rest of your body look bigger because you don't have that extra hair on top as a balance.

I don't think that's true. I have short hair (not unlike Karen's pic) and I get a lot of compliments and don't look disproportionate.

Jenny, Friday, 17 September 2010 14:38 (thirteen years ago) link

Your weight is your weight -- nothing will really "distract" people from noticing it, like visual tricks or optical illusions or something! You can make the rest of you look and BE so awesome, though, that they notice your weight but don't remember it, because it's not one of the most important things about you. I think a great haircut that suits you, suits your face, and fits into your lifestyle is one of the biggest advantages a person can have! (A smile that you want to climb inside of is probably tied with "great hair" for first place, but let's not quibble.)

I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Friday, 17 September 2010 14:44 (thirteen years ago) link

You know, maybe it's a cultural thing or whatever, but I'm really not used to someone flat out saying to an effective stranger "you're overweight, so that hairstyle will make you look like even more of a fatty."

I just find that really really o_0 like that's a kind of personal observation I wouldn't make to a close friend, let alone a random internet acquaintance. But I guess I just don't get girl culture. When you say you're feeling a bit down and want to talk about getting a haircut to cheer you up - I do think it's kind of tactless to say the least to point out how huge they are and how a haircut will make them look even bigger.

This kind of behaviour is *really* alien to me.

Karen D. Tregaskin, Friday, 17 September 2010 14:50 (thirteen years ago) link

i think face shape is actually the most important thing to consider with a hair style: i've realised that really long hair really ~doesn't~ flatter my face all, and i suit it much better at shoulder-ish length.

the problem is that i'm extremely lazy about getting my hair cut so it inevitably ends up a couple of feet long.

just1n3, Friday, 17 September 2010 14:55 (thirteen years ago) link

My face is supposedly "heart-shaped" (whatever that means.) Does this mean I can rock a bob or not?

Karen D. Tregaskin, Friday, 17 September 2010 14:57 (thirteen years ago) link

you could certainly rock a bob in that picture! (so cuet!!)

camphor jars (c sharp major), Friday, 17 September 2010 14:59 (thirteen years ago) link

Thanks! I am wondering if I'm just secretly hoping that getting that haircut will make me magically as cuet as an eight year old again. ;-)

Karen D. Tregaskin, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:01 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah, Christine, that came across as pretty tactless. I don't think that's "girl culture" either, or at least it shouldn't be.

Heart shaped faces look fab w/ bobs!

Jenny, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:02 (thirteen years ago) link

I think Christine is only applying a standard that she believes in for herself, is the thing. I'm pretty sure you've mentioned that you prefer to keep your own hair longer for the same reason, C...? Good intentions, maybe an indelicate execution.

I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:06 (thirteen years ago) link

Kate: I weigh about the same as you do. I'm not talking about hiding extra weight or think it's something to be hidden, I just don't think heavier women look good with short hair. It's not a value judgement. I don't think of you as a virtual stranger--we've both been posting to ILX, what, about nine years now?--but as a fellow ILXor. This is the kind of advice I'd want to have given to me, not 'tactful' advice. Advice I could use. Also, I have little or no personal experience of adult 'girl culture', so I have no idea if other women act like me.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:15 (thirteen years ago) link

Heart-shaped faces have a narrow forehead, wide, broad cheekbones, and a narrow, pointed chin.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:18 (thirteen years ago) link

(Forgot to post that I have one myself.)

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:18 (thirteen years ago) link

And I do apologize if I've hurt you, Kate.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:19 (thirteen years ago) link

You said you weigh 200 pounds, right? If you get your hair cut short it will make the rest of your body look bigger because you don't have that extra hair on top as a balance.

― Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, September 17, 2010 10:05 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

hey, this is nonsense. many women of many different sizes look great with short hair.

horseshoe, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:22 (thirteen years ago) link

I agree with Laurel and Just1n3 - and another, fucked up cultural stigma of overweight women, is that overweight = slovenly, unkempt - so the traditional advice is to look like you take care of your appearance to compensate. Of course, this also ties in which the projection of confidence that Laurel mentions upthread.

I generally try to keep my hair about chin-length, but then I think I have a fairly short neck and broad shoulders

sarahel, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:29 (thirteen years ago) link

That actually reminds me of something else - if I had short hair, I'd have to wash it every day. That is a massive plus for super long hair - if you don't feel like washing it, you can stick it in a ponytail and it doesn't look that awful, but shorter hair has to be clean. (Unless you are a skinny floppy boy in a dronerock band, in which case it can be as filthy as he likes.)

Karen D. Tregaskin, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:32 (thirteen years ago) link

Christine I'm sorry that you don't like the way you look with short hair. Insisting that all fat women look bad with short hair is still really annoying. You don't even know what I look like, you know?

Jenny, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:40 (thirteen years ago) link

It just feels like you're projecting on the rest of us because of something unpleasant that happened to you.

Jenny, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:41 (thirteen years ago) link

hey, let's not gang up on christine - she apologised, and it's obvious that she didn't mean to be insulting or rude.

just1n3, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:43 (thirteen years ago) link

i like having short hair but i do worry every time i get it cut that it's going to make my face look like a fat football. all i can do is rely on my hairdresser to have some experience of making ppl look good!

camphor jars (c sharp major), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:45 (thirteen years ago) link

It just feels like you're projecting on the rest of us because of something unpleasant that happened to you.

Something unpleasant? Nothing that I can think of. I'm willing to believe that you're an exception to the "heavier women should wear their hair long" rule--all fashion rules have exceptions.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:47 (thirteen years ago) link

K - is your hair thin? Other option is you can cut it just long enough so that you could put it up in a ponytail if you don't want to deal with a big change in maintenance.

sarahel, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:47 (thirteen years ago) link

I honestly don't believe in fashion rules.

Karen D. Tregaskin, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:48 (thirteen years ago) link

Like, I think you get a sense of what feels comfortable (foremost in importance) and doesn't make you look awful, but mostly it's just a question of taste.

AT 5'8" and 200 lbs I know the world of mainstream "fashion" or "style" or whatever you want to call is simply isn't meant for me, so I'm just going to do with my appearance whatever makes *me* happy.

Karen D. Tregaskin, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:50 (thirteen years ago) link

heavier women should wear their hair long

See I've never actually heard that. I have heard that tall women should wear their hair long. I'm 5'10" and haven't had long hair since HS so I give a big FU to that rule and that women over 40 should wear their hair on the shorter side which generally I sort of think has something to it.

master of retardment (ENBB), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:52 (thirteen years ago) link

My hair is quite babyfine and also I've been dyeing it for so long that it's about 3 different colours so I'd like to cut a chunk out of at least one of those colours. Two years ago, it was blonde and then I dyed it blood red and now I've been dying it gingery red so a lot of the stuff that has now been three different colours is breaking off all over the place so it's very uneven. And that is bugging me, so firstly I want it all one length, and secondly would like to work towards getting it consistent in colour and not in such bad (breaking over-dyed) shape.

Karen D. Tregaskin, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:53 (thirteen years ago) link

/It just feels like you're projecting on the rest of us because of something unpleasant that happened to you./

Something unpleasant? Nothing that I can think of. I'm willing to believe that you're an exception to the "heavier women should wear their hair long" rule--all fashion rules have exceptions.

My point is not to carve out an exception for myself. It's to suggest that insisting on the rightness of this "rule," as though it is just an objective fact and not your opinion born of a bad haircut decision long ago, comes across as judgmental and rude.

Like if I said, "Women over 35 with long hair look awful because they are trying too hard. It is a rule."

xp

Jenny, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:54 (thirteen years ago) link

I have a terrible feeling that no matter how carefully I get my hair cut, in a week or two it will end up looking like this, because I am terrible at taking care of my hair:

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/27952613/Aphex+Twin+young.jpg

I am now so thoroughly confused by all these "rules" that I am going to give up and just shave my head. I haven't had a shaved head since I was 15 and that was amazingly easy to take care of.

Karen D. Tregaskin, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:57 (thirteen years ago) link

Want his shirt, though.

Karen D. Tregaskin, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:57 (thirteen years ago) link

I kinda don't want to cut my hair because I fear that I will start to go baldish in an old lady way soon enough and would like to have lovely flowing long hippie locks while I still can. I suppose I should wait and see as more of my grey hairs come in, if they are going to be wirey and thick or even more babyfine than my regular hair.

Karen D. Tregaskin, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:59 (thirteen years ago) link

Kate honestly just go for it. I think that you would look great with a just below chin length bob and it will take care of all the issues you mentioned. Plus, if you hate it you can always take comfort in the fact that it will grow back.

master of retardment (ENBB), Friday, 17 September 2010 16:00 (thirteen years ago) link

i agree with Erica

horseshoe, Friday, 17 September 2010 16:10 (thirteen years ago) link

also, i feel like there is no way to predict how a new hair style will look, based on shape of face, body, other hair "rules." you kind of just have to take the plunge and get the cut and see how it turns out.

horseshoe, Friday, 17 September 2010 16:11 (thirteen years ago) link

I'd say, that if you're concerned about thinning hair, cut it just long enough to put it in a loose ponytail (as opposed to a tight one)

sarahel, Friday, 17 September 2010 16:12 (thirteen years ago) link

ime more women look better with shorter hair than longer hair - there is always the compromise of shoulder length, then you can go shorter gradually or you can grow out longer again.

now that i have discovered how good a haircut from cheapo supercuts can be, i'm gonna make a serious effort to go more regularly, instead of letting my hair grow long and hideous out of sheer laziness.

just1n3, Friday, 17 September 2010 16:13 (thirteen years ago) link

Like if I said, "Women over 35 with long hair look awful because they are trying too hard. It is a rule."

I'd just shrug my shoulders and tell you that the cutoff date was 30 and that that rule has been dead for decades (it was a real one, incidentally). Let's just drop this. I've apologized, and it's clear that I tend to take this kind of thing much less personally than many of you do.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 17 September 2010 16:16 (thirteen years ago) link

OK, I have decided that I am going to take the plunge and do it, but I'm probably gonna wait until my mum is here so that I have a second opinion*.

*also hoping that my mum will be in a good mood because she is on holiday and will tell me 8 times a day how cute it looks rather than me going ARGH I HATE IT MAKE IT GROW NOW for the next 6 months.

Next question is... WHERE... I hated the last 3 haircuts I've had and I always end up going to Hair By Fairy even though every time I come out of that place, I say SHOOT ME IF I EVER THINK OF GOING THERE AGAIN.

Karen D. Tregaskin, Friday, 17 September 2010 16:17 (thirteen years ago) link

Kate: My hair is babyfine and thinning, too, but I've never dyed it. It's half grey (silver, actually) The thinning part is a problem for me because I was a hairpuller as a child and it's thin enough already.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 17 September 2010 16:22 (thirteen years ago) link

exciting, Kate!!!

horseshoe, Friday, 17 September 2010 16:23 (thirteen years ago) link

Post a picture of it first thing.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 17 September 2010 16:30 (thirteen years ago) link

I'm not taking it personally. If I took it personally every time someone thought I was unattractive, I would never be able to leave the house. I do agree that I'm not being particularly constructive anymore, so I apologize for that.

Jenny, Friday, 17 September 2010 16:35 (thirteen years ago) link

enough with the apologizing - what's the protocol for shiny tights vs. matte?

sarahel, Friday, 17 September 2010 16:38 (thirteen years ago) link

Shiny tights evoke CASEIN. Please go with the matte.

trollin' with the homies (suzy), Friday, 17 September 2010 16:39 (thirteen years ago) link

matte matte matte all the way, but the only tights I wear are the thick black art school girl type, and they really don't work in shiny. (Unless they have silver threads in them - I have had a couple of pairs like that over the years. They were awesome.)

Karen D. Tregaskin, Friday, 17 September 2010 16:39 (thirteen years ago) link

i'm horrible with getting runs and holes, so i get tights from dance supply stores - i generally will only wear shiny if i'm going out dancing

sarahel, Friday, 17 September 2010 16:41 (thirteen years ago) link

I haven't worn tights for sometime because I haven't worn a skirt in over a year, but I'd go with matte.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 17 September 2010 16:44 (thirteen years ago) link

this thread actually got me back to wearing skirts and dresses after Laurel succinctly articulated all the problems i've had with pants.

sarahel, Friday, 17 September 2010 16:47 (thirteen years ago) link

Matte, generally, tho if I had a place to wear shiny tights, I prob would. I am unfashionably fond of patterned tights, too.

Jenny, Friday, 17 September 2010 16:50 (thirteen years ago) link

that's adventurous! i'm self-conscious about my legs being thick, so i only wear black tights.

sarahel, Friday, 17 September 2010 16:53 (thirteen years ago) link

The problem is that I don't go out on the town much and I can't wear anything but scrubs to work. Another problem is that I tend to get unsightly stubble about four hours or so after shaving, which means that casual sundress/sunskirt wear would be a problem. I'm going to be doing intake paperwork for flu clinics again this year, so I'll be able to wear skirts at least some of the time.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 17 September 2010 16:54 (thirteen years ago) link

I haven't worn a pair of tights in about 2 years. If I wear a dress or skirt, I wear leggings underneath. I think that was something I gave up, after the band broke up - dammit, I *never* have to wear a pair of tights again.

But thick black tights are super comfy in cold weather.

Karen D. Tregaskin, Friday, 17 September 2010 16:55 (thirteen years ago) link

I have to wear tights because of the aforementioned body hair problem, unless I can get somewhere to shave in the middle of the day.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 17 September 2010 16:57 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah there are not a lot of opportunities in the world of workers compensation law to wear shiny tights, unfortunately. I did wear aqua tights to an MCLE seminar yesterday, though.

Jenny, Friday, 17 September 2010 16:59 (thirteen years ago) link

oh, i don't wear skirts or dresses without tights unless they're ankle length, because i'll sometimes go weeks without shaving my legs because i often don't give a shit.

sarahel, Friday, 17 September 2010 17:00 (thirteen years ago) link

I have never shaved my legs in my life and I certainly don't plan on starting now!

It's actually quite funny, when I started working here, they offered me a free Laser Hair Removal as some kind of perk (also practice for the nurses), and I just shrugged and showed them "there's really not enough here to make that worth your while."

Karen D. Tregaskin, Friday, 17 September 2010 17:02 (thirteen years ago) link

I never used to shave my legs and now I have buckled to societal and professional pressure. I take a break during the winter at least.

Jenny, Friday, 17 September 2010 17:08 (thirteen years ago) link

Tights!! Patterned tend to make me look like a have a dread disease (or at least I'm afraid they do). But I love weird colors. Mustard and turquoise and orange-red and so on.

I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Friday, 17 September 2010 17:17 (thirteen years ago) link

I have pale skin and dark hair. I also have enough body hair to make clinical hirsutism a possible diagnosis--I have dark wiry hair on my feet, arms, hands and legs, and what amounts to a full beard on my chin (it takes 30 minutes a day to pluck it so I just shave it instead).

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 17 September 2010 17:22 (thirteen years ago) link

I like tights with vertical woven stripes, but I find that they run too quickly.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 17 September 2010 17:23 (thirteen years ago) link

(Oh, and yes I do shave all of that hair off.)

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 17 September 2010 17:25 (thirteen years ago) link

I dunno. I have always found the western world's obsession with the idea that women be HAIRLESS everywhere except on head pretty strange and kind of inexplicable. (Then again, I find lots of society's rules and obligations WRT women's appearance pretty strange and kind of inexplicable.)

But on the other hand, I'm also aware of my own privilege WRT that, in terms of I'm not so sure it would be easy for me to resist the societal imperative to be hairless if I wasn't a pale skinned pale haired anglo with almost minimal body hair. It's a strange one.

Karen D. Tregaskin, Friday, 17 September 2010 18:16 (thirteen years ago) link

That's not a female thing--the western world has preferred hairless to hairy for most of recorded history. Hairy is considered animalistic and threatening.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 17 September 2010 18:38 (thirteen years ago) link

Huh. That's odd because I was always under the impression that body hair (& facial hair) was considered erotic, a sign of sexual prowess in men.

OK, I didn't necessarily share that view for a long time but it did seem fairly prevalent.

(personally this has changed as I aged - I used to find hairless men attractive but as I've got older I've definitely started to find beards, leg hair, belly hair, arm hair - OMG I can be reduced to a smouldering pile of lust by the arm hair on say Erol Alkan or someone.)

ha hem. Purely theoretically of course.

Karen D. Tregaskin, Friday, 17 September 2010 19:45 (thirteen years ago) link

Not sure about every ol' civilization, obv, but the Greeks def glorified hairlessness in women and men, as did, I'm pretty sure, the Egyptians.

I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Friday, 17 September 2010 19:48 (thirteen years ago) link

I always think of those fantastic displays of masculine hair by Persians, Assyrians, Turks, etc.

But now I've started thinking about Turkish arm hair I'll be here all night.

Karen D. Tregaskin, Friday, 17 September 2010 19:56 (thirteen years ago) link

Huh. That's odd because I was always under the impression that body hair (& facial hair) was considered erotic, a sign of sexual prowess in men.

No, it was considered obscene, not erotic.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 17 September 2010 23:15 (thirteen years ago) link

By whom? By you? By your culture? By this specific time and place?

For gods sake, after 10 years on ILX or whatever, you should have realised that the specific cultural time and place mores under which you live are completely variable and change from place to place and time to time.

Karen D. Tregaskin, Saturday, 18 September 2010 09:41 (thirteen years ago) link

Kate, here's a compromise I go with. I haven't been to a hairdresser since 1989 (1987 if you count cutting) so I know your reluctance. i also despise short hair on me so what I do is layers. they're tough to straight cut by yourself but if you pull your hair up in a tight pony at the middle of your hairline at your forehead you can then chop vertically into it at slightly different angles as much as you like. when you undo the pony tail you've lost no length at all but you've gained a whole bunch of volume and a style you can smooth down, shag up or make it straight up punk with enough product A++++++

Dude you HAVE no quran! (sunny successor), Sunday, 19 September 2010 04:02 (thirteen years ago) link

I wish I had the guts to cut my own hair, but with short fine hair, its a risky thing, I'd mess it up completely.

Connect Four Tet (Trayce), Sunday, 19 September 2010 04:30 (thirteen years ago) link

I cut my own hair for years and I told my self "this looks so no wave" but in reality what it looked like is "I cut my own hair."

Mormons come out of the sky and they stand there (Abbbottt), Sunday, 19 September 2010 17:27 (thirteen years ago) link

When I worked at the donut shop and would have to come to class w/out showering after, with lard and flour & glaze on my hair & person, I also told myself I looked "no wave." Thank god my friend introduced me to the idea of "no wave" in high school or I'd have spent my life thinking I looked like an unsalvagable slob.

Mormons come out of the sky and they stand there (Abbbottt), Sunday, 19 September 2010 17:29 (thirteen years ago) link

Or this one was good too: Maybe people put flour on their hair...at the Batcave.

Mormons come out of the sky and they stand there (Abbbottt), Sunday, 19 September 2010 17:29 (thirteen years ago) link

After the Rephresh party last night, I have pretty much decided to keep my long hair because, like, IDM hair is totally cool, it's long, it's beautiful, you can stick it in a topknot up on the top of your head when dancing or rocking out with your 303 like the dudes onstage last night. After last night, I realised pretty much that all those Rephlex acid dudes are basically just hippies with analogue electronics and super long hair is totally the way forward.

It has to be cut straight, though. Layers are so not IDM.

Karen D. Tregaskin, Sunday, 19 September 2010 17:59 (thirteen years ago) link

idm??

Dude you HAVE no quran! (sunny successor), Sunday, 19 September 2010 18:03 (thirteen years ago) link

Stupid pseudo-genre of electronic music. Basically acid house techno dudes who took too much acid and turned into hippies. They all have incredibly long, gorgeous, flowing hair like out of Breck commercials.

Karen D. Tregaskin, Sunday, 19 September 2010 18:05 (thirteen years ago) link

ahh. well long layers can still be a++++. i figure if i can still put them back in a ponytail theyre ok

Dude you HAVE no quran! (sunny successor), Sunday, 19 September 2010 18:07 (thirteen years ago) link

I've been trying to grow out the layers that I used to have. They're almost gone--they have an inch or so to go. The bangs that I'd had since I was a toddler are almost gone, too, thank goodness. Now I'd like to try growing my hair down to the bottom of my shoulder blades, something I've never been able to do. Got any advice? Regular cutting of split ends are urgent and key, I know, but that doesn't seem to help.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Monday, 20 September 2010 02:16 (thirteen years ago) link

Hey ladies. Birth control question. Is it ok to run two packs of the pill together, for Apri or Reclipsen (both are .15mg desogestrel and .03mg ethinyl estradiol)? I used to do it with Microgynon which I think is very slightly different. Can't imagine there's any problem with it but I thought I'd ask you guys :)

Not the real Village People, Friday, 24 September 2010 17:40 (thirteen years ago) link

Do you mean skip your placebo week and just start taking the next pack? If so, yeah, go ahead. They're monophasic so it should work well.

kate78, Friday, 24 September 2010 18:17 (thirteen years ago) link

I'm a women's health nurse, btw.

kate78, Friday, 24 September 2010 18:17 (thirteen years ago) link

Yup, that's what I meant. cheers!

While on the topic, have any of you in the US had any problems doing this or with b.c. pills in general, due to only being able to get one pack at a time (from the pharmacy) and only a certain amount of time after you got the last pack because of the policy of the insurance providers? When I first got here I didn't realise they only let you have one pack at a time so I got stuck HAVING to go and pick up each pack in a two-day window. I tried to get an extra pack so I could have a spare one - AS PER the instructions given with it!! - even talked to the insurance provider but no luck. I mean I did buy one at full price so I had a spare one (and also so I had the option of running them together) but is this typical? What if you're going on holiday and need to take a second pack with you?
In the UK I could get 6 or 12 months' supply at a time (free) and do what I like with them. I may have moaned about this before...

Not the real Village People, Friday, 24 September 2010 18:25 (thirteen years ago) link

why would you want to take 2 birth controls and skip your placebo week? Is this a common thing, what does it do for you?

peacocks, Friday, 24 September 2010 18:28 (thirteen years ago) link

so you don't have a period, loads of people do it afaik especially if you've got a vacation or something coming up.

Not the real Village People, Friday, 24 September 2010 18:29 (thirteen years ago) link

no placebo week = no period

kate78, Friday, 24 September 2010 18:29 (thirteen years ago) link

NtRVP, check out your local Planned Parenthood affiliate. They probably won't take your insurance for pharmacy items like pills, but they're usually cheaper than paying full price at the pharmacy.

kate78, Friday, 24 September 2010 18:32 (thirteen years ago) link

oh, cool! You don't get weird mood swings or anything? Do you ever miss your period in the emotional sense during those times (this is only 1/4 of a serious question)?

peacocks, Friday, 24 September 2010 18:33 (thirteen years ago) link

the estrogen is only in the pills to give you a period; it's the progesterone that's doing the actual work of preventing babbies.

kate78, Friday, 24 September 2010 18:34 (thirteen years ago) link

as in you regret the bloating, cramps, moodiness, etc?

sarahel, Friday, 24 September 2010 18:34 (thirteen years ago) link

Oh hey. I should probably know this, but, you know how the leaflet is always v. keen to stress that the withdrawal bleed is not a real period, so don't panic that you're pregnant if you don't get one? Is the reverse true - is it possible (I mean, should be v unlikely if you've not been missing pills, but, possible) to be pregnant even if you've had a withdrawal bleed?

I skip withdrawal bleeds fairly often cz I get stomach pain/nausea/headaches on the week off, but I like the reassuring sense of blood = no babbies even if it isn't true, so I don't like to skip more than one in a row

patapon pataphysics (a passing spacecadet), Friday, 24 September 2010 18:39 (thirteen years ago) link

is it possible...to be pregnant even if you've had a withdrawal bleed
heck yes it is. I've seen women 20 week along (that's halfway!!) with regular periods from their (almost) religious birth control pill use.

kate78, Friday, 24 September 2010 18:43 (thirteen years ago) link

Oh great, a new thing to worry about! Well, thanks anyway, I've been wondering that for a while.

patapon pataphysics (a passing spacecadet), Friday, 24 September 2010 18:44 (thirteen years ago) link

sorry to terrify you.

kate78, Friday, 24 September 2010 18:45 (thirteen years ago) link

I've never had a pharmacy let me get only one pack at a time...that sounds like a pain in the ass.

Mormons come out of the sky and they stand there (Abbbottt), Friday, 24 September 2010 18:46 (thirteen years ago) link

Haha no, it's ok. It was not a question of immediate relevance (although, maybe...).

(xpost)

patapon pataphysics (a passing spacecadet), Friday, 24 September 2010 18:46 (thirteen years ago) link

Do yourself a favor and never watch the show on TLC "I Didn't Know I was Pregnant".

master of retardment (ENBB), Friday, 24 September 2010 18:47 (thirteen years ago) link

sounds like it's more the insurance company's rule re: one pack at a time, right? you'd think it would be in their best interest to have you not pregnant and consuming costly prenatal care.

kate78, Friday, 24 September 2010 18:48 (thirteen years ago) link

Do yourself a favor and never watch the show on TLC "I Didn't Know I was Pregnant".
does this show have it's own a thread yet? holy living god, this show.

kate78, Friday, 24 September 2010 18:49 (thirteen years ago) link

Hahaha, have I discovered the one benefit of not having health insurance?

Actually, I just discovered I got state health insurance today for $0.00. Oh yeah.

Mormons come out of the sky and they stand there (Abbbottt), Friday, 24 September 2010 18:49 (thirteen years ago) link

x-post

It should, right?

Btw now that I've reminded myself that it exists I'm totally going to go and see if it's on On Demand.

I've met some women who experienced that and it still blows my mind. Like exactly how do you not know in at least some way that you have a PERSON GROWING INSIDE OF YOU!? I know it happens and there are many reasons but it's so hard to comprehend.

master of retardment (ENBB), Friday, 24 September 2010 18:51 (thirteen years ago) link

When I was in the midst of gaining puberty one of our close family friends would talk about the menstrual cycle as this beautiful thing that connects you with the universe and other women and that we are moon children and stuff so I don't know. Also this book I read once had a little part dealing with periods that made them sound totally sweet to have. This little boy was actually jealous of his friend for getting to have a period.

I know they have low estrogen cycle ones but can you get a 0 estrogen one? I could google I guess but I'm not actually going to start using bc again anytime soon so it doesn't really matter.

peacocks, Friday, 24 September 2010 18:52 (thirteen years ago) link

omg awesome

peacocks, Friday, 24 September 2010 18:53 (thirteen years ago) link

i've never been on the pill because it just seems scary adding extra weird hormones and things like "withdrawal bleeding"

sarahel, Friday, 24 September 2010 18:54 (thirteen years ago) link

peacocks, Depo-Provera is also progestrone-only.

kate78, Friday, 24 September 2010 18:56 (thirteen years ago) link

i was on and off the pill for a few years but came off it permanently not long after moving here - it really fucked with my head, and i could never remember to take it at the right time, and i was constantly paranoid that it wasn't actually working and that i could be pregnant at any time.

just1n3, Friday, 24 September 2010 18:59 (thirteen years ago) link

oh and also: as someone who has gone a year without getting a period, i can tell you that it's totally possible to not know you're pregnant.

and also: this happened to my husband's co-worker's gf (she's a pretty big lady, and despite doctor visits for certain 'issues' the dr never once gave her a pregnancy test). one day she started feeling really bad pains, rushed to hospital, an hour or two later there was babby!

just1n3, Friday, 24 September 2010 19:01 (thirteen years ago) link

I know it does happen it's just sort of mind blowing esp if someone was experiencing weird symptoms that pregnancy wouldn't cross their mind.

master of retardment (ENBB), Friday, 24 September 2010 19:02 (thirteen years ago) link

sounds like it's more the insurance company's rule re: one pack at a time, right? you'd think it would be in their best interest to have you not pregnant and consuming costly prenatal care.

Lol this is exactly what I grumble to myself every month on my way out of the pharmacy :)

That totally scares me about being preggers without knowing. Is it harmful to keep taking the pill if you're pregnant? I know they tell you not to in the instructions but if you don't know... :-S
Just had a bit of a weird situation with my brother and his gf. She apparently announced she was 4 months preg but had had a couple of negative preg tests. She went to the GP a couple of times (alone) who apparently told her there was another heartbeat (she had a 'bump' too). But at a later time he did a blood test and it was negative. And hadn't ever written in her notes that she was ever pregnant. They went for a scan and she was definitely not pregnant. She'd previously been in hospital for tons of tests for something unrelated and they'd been giving her all sorts of drugs. I'm completely at a loss as to what actually has happened, sounds like my brother is too (he's young and not exactly in tune with 'women's issues').

Not the real Village People, Friday, 24 September 2010 19:03 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah the not realizing you're pregnant thing is up there with the waking up in an ice-filled bathtub minus vital organs thing ... it just seems like an urban legend

sarahel, Friday, 24 September 2010 19:03 (thirteen years ago) link

I mean I have BEEN on the pill and had weird symptoms and freaked out that I might accidentally be pregnant, never mind if I was using any other non-medical method and felt the smallest thing to be different/wrong.

I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Friday, 24 September 2010 19:04 (thirteen years ago) link

i've never been on the pill because it just seems scary adding extra weird hormones

this is why I quit.

jees! I read an article in a seventeen mag when I was like 11 about a girl not knowing she was pregnant and giving birth in a toilet. I got a little nervous every time I went to the bathroom for a while after that (even though it would be impossible for me to be pregnant).

peacocks, Friday, 24 September 2010 19:04 (thirteen years ago) link

I find the pill great btw. Periods are lighter and less painful, plus you have control over when they arrive! Before my cycle was all over the place. I never forget to take them either. But I'm in the lucky position of kind of not minding too much if I get preg right now.

Not the real Village People, Friday, 24 September 2010 19:05 (thirteen years ago) link

i was creeped out by the biblical story of the virgin birth at a relatively young age.

sarahel, Friday, 24 September 2010 19:06 (thirteen years ago) link

This sounds totally new agey bullshit but the one time I had a pregnancy scare, it was like just the slightest change clued me in. Just the teeny tiniest. It was so almost nothing, nothing but a very subtle change in discharge and a giant feeling of dread. It was just like I "knew." I knew and I thought, "oh fuck." I wasn't even yet to where my period would have been late.

Mormons come out of the sky and they stand there (Abbbottt), Friday, 24 September 2010 19:06 (thirteen years ago) link

NTRVP: well, they do say that a high number of young/first pregnancies are spontaneously aborted/miscarried before the women are even aware of them. It's possible, I guess, but probably not at 4 months wtf. Maybe drugs caused miscarriage somehow? Seems like someone isn't telling something, in that story, but maybe that's just cos it's third-hand on the internet.

I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Friday, 24 September 2010 19:07 (thirteen years ago) link

you hippie.
xpost

kate78, Friday, 24 September 2010 19:07 (thirteen years ago) link

It's awesome to not be on the pill anymore btw.

I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Friday, 24 September 2010 19:08 (thirteen years ago) link

I mean I have BEEN on the pill and had weird symptoms and freaked out that I might accidentally be pregnant, never mind if I was using any other non-medical method and felt the smallest thing to be different/wrong.

― I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Friday, September 24, 2010 3:04 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

This exactly.

Abbott - I had a friend who had a similar experience. She just knew.

master of retardment (ENBB), Friday, 24 September 2010 19:09 (thirteen years ago) link

Laurel, my thoughts too. It's all 3rd-hand even to me, via my mum and my bro. My mum's clued up on all this and has suspicions all over the place but isn't in a position to actually find out what's happened. In all the original tests, apparently no doctors mentioned the chance of pregnancy (presume this would be one of the first things they'd check for as well?) My brother (who was over the moon when he found she was expecting) just put the lack of any positive preg. test down to 'it's a sneaky little bugger'. That's when alarm bells started to go off for me.

Not the real Village People, Friday, 24 September 2010 19:11 (thirteen years ago) link

That story aboout your brother's gf is strange. Is there any reason to think that she might have lied about being pregnant? Maybe I'm reading it wrong but it seems you might have been implying that and the events don't make much sense.

master of retardment (ENBB), Friday, 24 September 2010 19:11 (thirteen years ago) link

Sorry I hadn't seen your post.

They generally do run pregnancy tests on all sexually active women before most serious medical treatment as far as I know.

master of retardment (ENBB), Friday, 24 September 2010 19:12 (thirteen years ago) link

I've no idea whether she's been making it up or what - I've only met her once. It's more likely she and/or him are just really confused and haven't been asking any of the right questions.

Not the real Village People, Friday, 24 September 2010 19:14 (thirteen years ago) link

Mentally running through list of pregnancy symptoms, kind of bummed at how many of them I experience at low levels every so often anyway - I imagine the real thing to be so many orders of magnitude worse that you just know, but, ugh, do not want to be one of the people who doesn't just know

another reason to renew efforts to lose some damn weight I guess, or try to stop putting it on so fast anyway ;_;

(weight gain ongoing for much longer than 9 months - not really a serious candidate for ILXor "I Didn't Know I Was Pregnant" here, unless it's an elephant or something)

patapon pataphysics (a passing spacecadet), Friday, 24 September 2010 19:14 (thirteen years ago) link

I was creeped out by the biblical story of the virgin birth at a relatively young age.

in my case I think I was just educated poorly on sex and how my body worked.

peacocks, Friday, 24 September 2010 19:15 (thirteen years ago) link

my mom just said, "we've got a book about that somewhere, and uh, you can ask me if you don't understand anything"

sarahel, Friday, 24 September 2010 19:17 (thirteen years ago) link

I admit every couple months or so if me period isn't to-the-minute punctual I just do a pregnancy test. I keep a couple around for sanity's sake. $4 every couple months for not freaking out is worth it to me.

Mormons come out of the sky and they stand there (Abbbottt), Friday, 24 September 2010 19:18 (thirteen years ago) link

Except I left a finished preg test sitting in the bathroom once and my husband saw it a few hours later after the results faded...I was gone until 11 p.m. that day & he spent the whole day thinking I'd left it out to say "lol u have babby now." Poor dude!

Mormons come out of the sky and they stand there (Abbbottt), Friday, 24 September 2010 19:19 (thirteen years ago) link

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! o man

I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Friday, 24 September 2010 19:20 (thirteen years ago) link

omg ahahaha but also yeah, poor dude!

master of retardment (ENBB), Friday, 24 September 2010 19:20 (thirteen years ago) link

How many times did you have to apologize for that one??

I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Friday, 24 September 2010 19:20 (thirteen years ago) link

haha - makes me want to leave notes for random people i know that just say - "lol u have babby now!"

sarahel, Friday, 24 September 2010 19:21 (thirteen years ago) link

It was one of those situations where I was like "I see why many people enjoy having a cell phone now."

Mormons come out of the sky and they stand there (Abbbottt), Friday, 24 September 2010 19:21 (thirteen years ago) link

Isn't there a thread about movie plots that only worked pre-cellphones? Add to list.

I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Friday, 24 September 2010 19:25 (thirteen years ago) link

Oh man, that is terrible and yet hilarious. Sorry!

And $4 every couple months for not freaking out is worth it to me is probably OTM, just gotta suppress the instinct which kicks in when I look at them in the shop and goes "but if I get the $30 one and not the $4 one it will be... better, somehow?"

capitalism has me right where it wants me I guess

patapon pataphysics (a passing spacecadet), Friday, 24 September 2010 19:29 (thirteen years ago) link

Like you're at the shelf and you somehow think that if only you buy the expensive "electronic" one and not the pharmacy's cheapest own brand one it somehow translates into less pregnancy for you.

patapon pataphysics (a passing spacecadet), Friday, 24 September 2010 19:30 (thirteen years ago) link

That's why I am glad I saw they have preg tests at the dollar store – if I am buying a two-pack of the K-Mart brand ones I can say to myself "at least they're not the ones from the dollar store" with a total sneer in my imaginary voice in my mind.

Mormons come out of the sky and they stand there (Abbbottt), Friday, 24 September 2010 19:31 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah - they probably fine but $ store pregnancy tests just seem like a disaster waiting to happen

master of retardment (ENBB), Friday, 24 September 2010 19:32 (thirteen years ago) link

I did one once and the screen on those actually says "lol u have a baby now"

peacocks, Friday, 24 September 2010 19:38 (thirteen years ago) link

Man, I am investing my dollars in the wrong things.

Mormons come out of the sky and they stand there (Abbbottt), Friday, 24 September 2010 20:01 (thirteen years ago) link

A woman I went to law school with was preg and didn't know until her water broke. Honestly I kind of don't believe her because nine months before she had the baby she suspected she was pregnant AND got a positive pregnancy test, but the baby's fsther was uninterested in the issue and then she experienced some bleeding so I think she just decided it was a false alarm and spent the next nine months working on her denial skills.

Jenny, Friday, 24 September 2010 20:16 (thirteen years ago) link

That is out of this world nuts.

peacocks, Friday, 24 September 2010 20:49 (thirteen years ago) link

A girl in my sister's class who lived a block over from us had sex followed by denial followed by scary toilet birth - it was a huge o_0 scandal because the baby died. The girl's younger sister is one of my cousin's closest friends, so this is not some urban myth. Sister's classmate went for psych care for a couple of months but today, she's fine.

are you robot? (suzy), Friday, 24 September 2010 20:52 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah, I think the denial thing happens most with young girls.

master of retardment (ENBB), Friday, 24 September 2010 20:53 (thirteen years ago) link

i think my theoretical art project would involve mini-lcd screens that alternate between "lol u have babby now" and "scary toilet birth"

sarahel, Friday, 24 September 2010 20:55 (thirteen years ago) link

"scary toilet birth" is what the $ store pregtest says when you aren't pregnant!

peacocks, Friday, 24 September 2010 20:56 (thirteen years ago) link

xp And not licensed and practicing attorneys.

I have considerable sympathy for young women in that position, especially w/ so many states having parental notification laws and restricted access to abortion. It's terrifying to be in that situation and sometimes there doesn't seem to be any other option.

Jenny, Friday, 24 September 2010 20:58 (thirteen years ago) link

lol xpost.

kate78, Friday, 24 September 2010 20:58 (thirteen years ago) link

i think putting them in dollar stores would be kinda mean -- they'd have to go somewhere absurd -- like pet stores

sarahel, Friday, 24 September 2010 20:59 (thirteen years ago) link

Probably the reason I'm a feminist is because another neighbour got pregnant at 14 and to terminate, had to represent herself as a mature minor in order to avoid parental notification. She succeeded and it made me totally pro-choice to the point where I'd counsel a teenager to just plain get rid, but this was on a backdrop of full-colour 'this is your fetus' leaflets handed out by 50-year-old men in the Reagan era.

are you robot? (suzy), Friday, 24 September 2010 21:04 (thirteen years ago) link

I have considerable sympathy for young women in that position, especially w/ so many states having parental notification laws and restricted access to abortion. It's terrifying to be in that situation and sometimes there doesn't seem to be any other option.

― Jenny, Friday, September 24, 2010 4:58 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Yes, exactly.

master of retardment (ENBB), Friday, 24 September 2010 21:08 (thirteen years ago) link

guys theres a bitchin iphone app and website called epocrates where you can look up pills buy name, shape, color, imprints etc. it crazy. anyway you can check drug interactions there.

I saw him in convulsive throws I said "I'll have one of those" (sunny successor), Friday, 24 September 2010 23:19 (thirteen years ago) link

havent been on this thread in a while (omg @ christine upthread)

hoos wears orange camo pants ffs (roxymuzak), Monday, 27 September 2010 03:59 (thirteen years ago) link

Hmm...Which part?

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Monday, 27 September 2010 04:28 (thirteen years ago) link

ever get the feeling you've been cheated

hoos wears orange camo pants ffs (roxymuzak), Friday, 1 October 2010 08:15 (thirteen years ago) link

I feel like their message is undermined by presenting themselves as sexualized in a male gaze-approved kind of way, but I always feel that way about this kind of thing because I've got a stodgy second wave streak a mile wide.

Regular Stormy (Jenny), Friday, 1 October 2010 13:03 (thirteen years ago) link

With ya. I'm happy for you if you feel powerful, womanly, have a sense of claiming territory, etc with yr shirt off or whatever, but I still veer between "It would be a greater loss to let someone else's opinion override your right to feel that way" and "How powerful can it be when you're playing right into their hands?"

I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Friday, 1 October 2010 13:40 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah see for some reason i think this woman is a total hero
but i kind of don't see anything wrong with toplessness; i just wish it were an equal opportunity endeavor
i also have the kind of chest people don't tend to stare at

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 1 October 2010 13:50 (thirteen years ago) link

she's holding up a sign that says she will CUT THEIR BALLS OFF
that's pretty fierce

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 1 October 2010 13:51 (thirteen years ago) link

Which she'll never actually do because it would be assault and also honestly she probably wouldn't win a physical confrontation. Whereas men WILL harass her for being shirtless, don't you think?

Actually -- this is so layered, I can agree with you but there's a price... I think she's a hero in that she looks fierce and iconic in an "images of the feminine" way and absolutely resolute -- and if she's willing to bear the burden of the disconnect between how the world should be and how the world is, that's her personal undertaking and I wish her strength and cheer and beauty to balance things out.

I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Friday, 1 October 2010 14:02 (thirteen years ago) link

you put it better than i could have, but yes -- i agree. i have a tendency to live in that disconnected zone so i guess it's not surprising that i would applaud her.

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 1 October 2010 14:07 (thirteen years ago) link

I have no problem with toplessness qua toplessness at all but you can't look at this in a vacuum. She does look fierce but exactly in the way that male comic book artists draw women as fierce, right down to the in-your-face sexualization. I might feel a little more impressed if she didn't land smack dab in the middle of acceptable beauty standard and stood around with her boobs out holding a sign, too. Basically I applaud her message and her fierceness but I feel like the fact that she looks and acts lime what dudes wish feminists looked and acted like (sexy, fierce lady warriors) dilutes the radicalness of her act.

I'm looking at this from an American perspective, though, which is not entirely fair to the woman's intent but I think still works for the purposes of this discussion.

xp pretty much what Laurel said. I definitely don't live in that disconnect, for a lot of reasons.

Regular Stormy (Jenny), Friday, 1 October 2010 14:14 (thirteen years ago) link

she can't help what she looks like and whether or not she's attractive
it's the spirit of what she's doing that i like

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 1 October 2010 14:18 (thirteen years ago) link

I'd be interested what men actually DO in that sitch, tbh. You know, I was imagining the worst, some kind of hooting circle that would stay a little way back and enjoy the show, or random outbursts of anger because she's acting against the status quo...but it's also likely that they just put their heads down, tried not to look, and went about their business feeling intruded upon. Which is honestly hilarious. Because that's what they expect women to do, isn't it.

I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Friday, 1 October 2010 14:19 (thirteen years ago) link

No, but it does matter that she's attractive, because that's the territory that harassers are trying to claim. If she weren't conventionally attractive, she'd represent territory that men are told they shouldn't WANT to claim because it would reflect poorly on THEM if their desires were out of line with the norm. Which is a whole other thing....

I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Friday, 1 October 2010 14:22 (thirteen years ago) link

it sounds like from the article that there were a group of women doing this, or am i misreading?

sarahel, Friday, 1 October 2010 14:22 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah but I didn't say it didn't matter; I said she can't help it.

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 1 October 2010 14:23 (thirteen years ago) link

That's true, and you're right. Maybe they only chose to photo her for the paper for that reason? There are too many filters here with too many different agendas/bodies of influences to really grasp. So maybe it's better just to admire the spirit of the thing. :)

I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Friday, 1 October 2010 14:26 (thirteen years ago) link

i just think the dynamics of it being a group action are different than were it the action of a sole individual

sarahel, Friday, 1 October 2010 14:27 (thirteen years ago) link

I know she can't help it. I'm not holding that against her nor do I think it means her convictions are weak or anything but I think it weakens the gesture as activism. That's all.

Though sarahel has a good point abt group dynamics and whether this one woman who fits so well what we want a fierce sexy warrior woman to look like was pictured in the paper for that very reason.

Regular Stormy (Jenny), Friday, 1 October 2010 14:31 (thirteen years ago) link

I was going to revive this thread yesterday to ask about hair dryer diffuser attachments but never got around to it. I like this conversation better. :)

Regular Stormy (Jenny), Friday, 1 October 2010 14:33 (thirteen years ago) link

i'm trying to figure out exactly what the gesture is? Is it "look don't touch"?

sarahel, Friday, 1 October 2010 14:34 (thirteen years ago) link

I was referring to the toplessness specifically not the overall protest against being fucked up on public transit.

Summary: being smoking hot, thin, young, and perky while topless in public does not feel that radical because that's kind of what dominant cultural narratives claim young, thin, etc. woman are best suited for. American POV disclaimer.

Regular Stormy (Jenny), Friday, 1 October 2010 14:42 (thirteen years ago) link

Fucked WITH not fucked up. Different issue totally.

Regular Stormy (Jenny), Friday, 1 October 2010 14:42 (thirteen years ago) link

i kind of read it as "MY body stay away but if you want it so bad here it is ARGHGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH" like a crazy person running naked through the forest on a rampage.

knowing what i know of ukrainian men, and i have not had a whole lot of good experiences outside of one particular student who liked to tell jokes, they will look down their noses at her and preemptively reject her on the basis that she is crazy. no offense to ukrainian men (i am of ukrainian descent) but some of the most obnoxious students i have ever had have been outrageously self-important ukrainian men.

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 1 October 2010 14:43 (thirteen years ago) link

I've got a stodgy second wave streak a mile wide.

― Regular Stormy (Jenny), Friday, October 1, 2010 9:03 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

hi Jenny, this is the best way of putting this i've ever encountered, i'm going to start using it immediately. me, too: stodgy second wave streak.

horseshoe, Friday, 1 October 2010 15:39 (thirteen years ago) link

Do you all have any girl friends who make fun of their friends/acquaintances that they think are prettier than themselves? I.E., when they are making fun of someone you haven't met or seen yet, you know that they must be pretty, or being seen as "competition" in some way by the one making fun? It works the other way too, i.e. praising/becoming friends with girls they view as less attractive than themselves, or not their competition in some way. I think this is such a fucked up way of viewing the world (duh) and it seriously makes me nauseous.

hoos wears orange camo pants ffs (roxymuzak), Friday, 1 October 2010 19:22 (thirteen years ago) link

I mean... no?

I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Friday, 1 October 2010 19:26 (thirteen years ago) link

Well, you're lucky and living in a grown up world and I envy you.

hoos wears orange camo pants ffs (roxymuzak), Friday, 1 October 2010 19:28 (thirteen years ago) link

I can think of one friend right off the top of my head who I think is unquestionably, by any standard, not considering style or taste or character or anything else, simply objectively almost always the most beautiful person in the room. This is not her fault, and I don't think she particularly cares, and as I see it, she makes a strong effort never to trade on her looks at all. I'd feel like a horrible person for even mentioning it.

I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Friday, 1 October 2010 19:29 (thirteen years ago) link

Do you all have any girl friends who make fun of their friends/acquaintances that they think are prettier than themselves?

if i do, they don't make fun of them in my presence

sarahel, Friday, 1 October 2010 19:32 (thirteen years ago) link

Also I make fun of all my friends, probably, for their peculiarities! But I like to think: not ones they themselves haven't in some way put out there. :(

Tbh I'm having trouble thinking of how yr scenario would even play out, without the speaker being given sidelong glances and possibly taken aside and talked to afterward? Or at least it wd represent her really poorly to anyone who heard.

I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Friday, 1 October 2010 19:34 (thirteen years ago) link

xpost I'm not talking about model looking people who do this, I'm talking about objectively average-ish people who do this.

hoos wears orange camo pants ffs (roxymuzak), Friday, 1 October 2010 19:35 (thirteen years ago) link

Do you all have any girl friends who make fun of their friends/acquaintances that they think are prettier than themselves? I.E., when they are making fun of someone you haven't met or seen yet, you know that they must be pretty, or being seen as "competition" in some way by the one making fun? It works the other way too, i.e. praising/becoming friends with girls they view as less attractive than themselves, or not their competition in some way. I think this is such a fucked up way of viewing the world (duh) and it seriously makes me nauseous.

― hoos wears orange camo pants ffs (roxymuzak), Friday, October 1, 2010 3:22 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

not exactly this, but i had a roommate and friend a while back who was ridiculously beautiful, in an unreal movie star kind of way. she hadn't had many female friends over the course of her life, and i am unsure how to express this (maybe i'm being sexist, i don't know), but i think at least part of that was a direct result of how she looked. my other female friends at the time didn't make fun of her, but they often, for example, expressed disbelief that she could possibly hold the feminist views she professed to hold because she wore too much makeup (possibly irrelevant item: she didn't wear much makeup at all) or some other seemingly hostile observation that i could only understand as jealousy or at least assumptions based on what she looked like. it was depressing.

horseshoe, Friday, 1 October 2010 19:35 (thirteen years ago) link

Like this person will just make fun of someone (her friend) for looking old, or something (behind their back obv), when they are like obviously a very cute person. Maybe wanting people to agree so that her self image will improve? But still, how would that improve your self image?

hoos wears orange camo pants ffs (roxymuzak), Friday, 1 October 2010 19:36 (thirteen years ago) link

xp that seems like a very high school way to talk about people.

Thinking about people who invariably talk about appearance, the only person who comes to mind is my mother. and of course, that's different–she's usually talking about people my age, which makes me uncomfortable.

JuliaA, Friday, 1 October 2010 19:37 (thirteen years ago) link

xpost

it is really crappy that anything exists in the world that causes people to feel like that/do those things.

hoos wears orange camo pants ffs (roxymuzak), Friday, 1 October 2010 19:37 (thirteen years ago) link

That sounds really mean. And depressing to be around.

I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Friday, 1 October 2010 19:38 (thirteen years ago) link

xp that seems like a very high school way to talk about people.

we were all in our early twenties, and i'm not in touch with any of those people anymore. maybe that's not the way they are anymore.

horseshoe, Friday, 1 October 2010 19:39 (thirteen years ago) link

hmm, the only time something like that comes up in conversation is akin to discussing a personality quirk or a known fact in terms of relationships with others. Like "attractive friend A" should be the one to approach the bartender to try and get us free drinks, etc.

sarahel, Friday, 1 October 2010 19:39 (thirteen years ago) link

it would be nice if the pressures that i assume lead to these behaviors were expressed directly instead of at the expense of other women. like, "it sucks that so much of women's perceived value is tied up in how they look." but i guess i'm stating the ridiculously obvious.

horseshoe, Friday, 1 October 2010 19:40 (thirteen years ago) link

i guess some friends of mine (not just women, also guys) will occasionally be catty when it comes to an attractive woman's appearance and her relative success in the music scene.

sarahel, Friday, 1 October 2010 19:42 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah i have to say lots of the dudes i knew back then made hostile comments about this woman, too. those had a slightly different tenor, though; those dudes tended to be rejected suitors.

horseshoe, Friday, 1 October 2010 19:43 (thirteen years ago) link

What my mom-in-law does is kind of the opposite, praising how beautiful someone is around them, in really kind of boundary-free ways, until they are clearly super uncomfortable. She does this to her daughters, especially, but one time she started in on me, telling my husband how lucky he was "to be able to love a woman with such firm and beautiful breasts and strong calves" etc etc...awkward!

Mormons come out of the sky and they stand there (Abbbottt), Friday, 1 October 2010 19:44 (thirteen years ago) link

omg Abbott

horseshoe, Friday, 1 October 2010 19:44 (thirteen years ago) link

Your MiL is really...different. Isn't she.

I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Friday, 1 October 2010 19:45 (thirteen years ago) link

my mom is kind of like that, actually, though (i hope!) not to that degree. i think that is kind of an opposite response to the same social pressures. like, i think some women i have known developed slavishly devoted friendships with v beautiful women as though those women's beauty is an accomplishment to be admired.

horseshoe, Friday, 1 October 2010 19:45 (thirteen years ago) link

Oh man, yes, exactly! That is how my mom-in-law is about her daughter the hairstylist. "I am so lucky to have a daughter who gets to be beautiful and make people beautiful for a living." With real pride, and it's sweet but also a little awkward. I think that really is the #1 thing you can do, in her opinion, is be pretty.

Mormons come out of the sky and they stand there (Abbbottt), Friday, 1 October 2010 19:48 (thirteen years ago) link

sometimes i think my mom thinks that, too. :( except, on some level she knows better.

horseshoe, Friday, 1 October 2010 19:48 (thirteen years ago) link

that is such a weird thing - how does she not see that it's dead obvious what she's doing? she could at least be a bit more subtle and undermine her 'friend' in a way that isn't so blatantly demonstrating her own insecurities!! xps to rox

just1n3, Friday, 1 October 2010 19:50 (thirteen years ago) link

i know my mom doesn't think like that. she always accentuated the virtues of kindness and usefulness

sarahel, Friday, 1 October 2010 19:51 (thirteen years ago) link

Sometimes my mom-in-law will start in on how "real" (meaning not skinny) my body is, and how laudable it is to be that "real of a woman." And it's kinda hard not to get fuckin' offended, because she's so obsessed w/everyone's weight, and her own weight. But OTOH it doesn't seem like a back-handed way of calling me a fatty: it seems, well, real. It's just a weird thing to praise someone for, it's weird praise, I don't know how to take it.

Mormons come out of the sky and they stand there (Abbbottt), Friday, 1 October 2010 19:51 (thirteen years ago) link

i don't want to be all let me tell you about my mother, but she's a complex case. i think on some level she experiences the mandate that women be beautiful as a real imposition, but her response to it is expressed...contradictorily. i don't mean to run her down; she's an excellent person.

xp

horseshoe, Friday, 1 October 2010 19:52 (thirteen years ago) link

oh Abbott, that blows. women who are fucked up about this stuff project such weirdness into the world at other women.

horseshoe, Friday, 1 October 2010 19:52 (thirteen years ago) link

the majority of my close female friends has always been prettier than me (i don't consider myself an ugly duckling or anything, i just have lots of super cute friends), so i got used to being the wingman. when i was younger i was envious of their good looks, but and sometimes jealous (i would be lying if i said i was ~never~ jealous), but now that i'm ooooold and married, it matters a lot less.

just1n3, Friday, 1 October 2010 19:54 (thirteen years ago) link

xp horseshoe - seriously!! One of my friends' moms was really hung up about weight and beauty and stuff like that, to the point where they were discussing what form of plastic surgery she should have at age 12.

sarahel, Friday, 1 October 2010 19:56 (thirteen years ago) link

I have known people like Roxy describes, definitely, but I can't stand that kind of crap so we are not friends.

I also have a friend our age who is like Abbott's MiL! She's a handful and that is only one way her neurosis manifests itself so I guess I just kind of ignore it. She will also exaggerate ppl's desirable qualities to the point of making shit up (like she would tell ppl that I was a genius and had the grades for law review but turned it down bc I didn't believe in their politics, which is nonsense from beginning to end).

I have another friend who always talks about how nice and smart and skinny women are, like including "skinny" in her short list of A+ personality characteristics. We don't talk much anymore, tho not just because of that.

Regular Stormy (Jenny), Friday, 1 October 2010 19:56 (thirteen years ago) link

that is such a weird thing - how does she not see that it's dead obvious what she's doing? she could at least be a bit more subtle and undermine her 'friend' in a way that isn't so blatantly demonstrating her own insecurities!! xps to rox

― just1n3, Friday, October 1, 2010 3:50 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

^this, mainly. it's hard to respond to because it seems so sad for the person doing it, and obviously so. like, aren't you embarrassed saying this? usually i'm just like "what? i think she looks good."

hoos wears orange camo pants ffs (roxymuzak), Friday, 1 October 2010 19:57 (thirteen years ago) link

If someone is that weird about others I just can't handle being pals w/them, usually. This is why I have about three friends.

Mormons come out of the sky and they stand there (Abbbottt), Friday, 1 October 2010 19:59 (thirteen years ago) link

Used to have this thing with a very close friend where we both would pre-empt feeling like one or the other of us was looking the best that evening with 'oh gawd tonight I AM THE MUM' and the person who didn't say it replied with 'NO I AM THE MUM' to infinity but of the friends I have who are objectively beautiful I can't say I've ever heard them discuss it - it's something others are left to do.

My aunt had an abundance of good looks and not very many female friends, but to my knowledge did nothing mean to other women over looks or men or whatever. Because she lived in the same microclimate where she was raised, the women she did befriend tended to come from outside the area or they were accomplished enough not to be made insecure by her looks. One of the neighbourhood women said to me after my aunt died that it was lucky for my cousin that she was also pretty, else she believed my aunt would not have been interested, which was pretty rank (but this woman drank herself to death 18 months after the conversation so perhaps had issues of her own).

are you robot? (suzy), Friday, 1 October 2010 19:59 (thirteen years ago) link

I think there are a lot of girls on ILX who wd describe themselves as not historically being "good" at being friends with other girls. I'm glad we're all friends now, okay? These are the kinds of friendships you SHOULD be able to have.

I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Friday, 1 October 2010 20:02 (thirteen years ago) link

To the extent that "we" are all "friends" -- you know, whatever you think that means. Just...take a compliment and shut up.

I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Friday, 1 October 2010 20:03 (thirteen years ago) link

i'm pretty sure my mom had at least one friend like that (the catty about other women's appearances thing), and the way she dealt with it was to say, "You know, to be perfectly honest, I really just don't notice things like that. I just think of her as a nice person that (something involving what kind of food the pretty woman brings to parties, or something she does well, or a non-appearance related personality quirk)."

sarahel, Friday, 1 October 2010 20:04 (thirteen years ago) link

haha i am historically v v good at being friends with other girls so i'm sure i don't know what you're talking about! but...i have basically no irl friends at this point so maybe i'm lying.

xp

horseshoe, Friday, 1 October 2010 20:04 (thirteen years ago) link

Man, for real! I love being friends with awesome ladies, on ILX and in person. I *did* used to think of myself that way but the older I get, the more cool women I meet. I think it's just people mellowing out with age/growing up.

xp to Laurel

Mormons come out of the sky and they stand there (Abbbottt), Friday, 1 October 2010 20:04 (thirteen years ago) link

i went through phases of having mostly girl friends, and having mostly guy friends - i think it's about even at this point - but yeah, ilx ladies, you rock!

sarahel, Friday, 1 October 2010 20:06 (thirteen years ago) link

HS, I think of you as my IRL friend! You just live far away. ;_;

Regular Stormy (Jenny), Friday, 1 October 2010 20:11 (thirteen years ago) link

aw! i was kind of joking about not having any friends but i miss you, Jenny! <3

horseshoe, Friday, 1 October 2010 20:11 (thirteen years ago) link

all u ladies rule

horseshoe, Friday, 1 October 2010 20:11 (thirteen years ago) link

i also love all of you

i haven't encountered too much of the thing that roxy describes, and i have mostly female friends. i talk to guys about music and movies and stuff, but not usually feelings. to me real friendship is when you share secrets, and i rarely (never) share secrets with male friends.

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 1 October 2010 20:36 (thirteen years ago) link

i also hate talking about my feelings so there's that too

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 1 October 2010 20:37 (thirteen years ago) link

this is not really on topic but it's been bugging me a bit lately and it's something i feel like venting about (warning: this post may be of the tl;dr variety).

so when i first started uni i made friends with this small group of girls who were waaaaaaaay different from me and my HS friends (i ended up at a uni none of my close friends were at), they were physically v v diff (tall and busty and fashionable) but also v v culturally diff (bold, kind of hilariously obnoxious, extremely worldly and well-travelled - even at 18 - and came from wealthy-ish - by NZ standards - families). i became particularly good friends with one of these girls - we shall call her 'kristy' - and over the course of 18 months 'we' had alienated ourselves from the three other girls.

cut to about 3 years after we met: i had become really good friends with this girl (we'll call her 'jane') who was v v sort of artsy and hip and slender and attractive and v well known in our small city. jane and kristy never became friends - by this point i wasn't hanging out with kristy as much, even tho we'd been joined at the hip for the first two years. jane was a lot different... way less judgmental and catty and bitchy than kristy, and the more i hung out with jane the more i realised that kristy was kind of awful and that i had become pretty awful too.

jane had met kristy's bf a couple of times and the two had really hit it off, which is maybe one of the main reasons kristy took an instant dislike to her. but then one time during a conversation kristy basically referred to jane as a slut and that's when i realised something was up. anyway, kristy and her bf broke up and about 6 weeks later jane drunkenly shagged him. now, right or wrong, i never told kristy - it wasn't my place, they were broken up, her and jane weren't friends at all, and kristy was still obsessed with her ex so i figured it would only hurt her. and i didn't want to be stuck in the middle.

some months went by and i started noticing that i couldn't get hold of kristy - she wasn't returning any of my calls. then i found out from mutual friends that she had gotten back with her ex and he had - selfishly, stupidly - confessed to having slept with jane.

so i didn't see kristy for a few years and then i ran into her one day and it seemed fine - she seemed happy to see me, i figured plenty of time had passed, she wasn't with the ex anymore. we exchanged #s and i tried getting hold of her to meet up for coffee... but no response.

cut to this year: i give it another shot and friend her on facebook. she accepts, i send a brief msg asking what she's up to, giving a little info about what i'm up to. no reply. then a few months later i realise she's defriended me!!

she was so much fun to hang out with, despite her nasty side, and i figured there was a good chance she'd grown out of it. idk. but it really annoyed me, the whole thing. i feel like, was she that insanely jealous of jane, that my being friends basically meant that would not be friends with me??

ps. jane is still my best best female friend.

just1n3, Friday, 1 October 2010 20:37 (thirteen years ago) link

lolz that is long

just1n3, Friday, 1 October 2010 20:38 (thirteen years ago) link

Maybe she associates you with that particularly painful memory. Like not only did she lose her best friend (you) to Jane, but her BF, too (even though that's not what happened - I'm thinking more in terms of perception). It sounds like a situation where it's nothing you did.

There are ppl on FB that I avoid because they were a part of a scene I was in during a, let's say, challenging period of my life, even though I've got no ill will towards those ppl and they did nothing wrong. I just want to put it all behind me for good.

Regular Stormy (Jenny), Friday, 1 October 2010 20:46 (thirteen years ago) link

what i find weird is that she is FB friends with a bunch of mutual friends from that same period, PLUS my other best friend, who has been my best friend since we were 13, and who kristy made fun of A LOT. so i feel like she's deliberately spiting me??

just1n3, Friday, 1 October 2010 20:49 (thirteen years ago) link

Oh, yeah, maybe. Does she think you're somehow complicit in the BF thing? It's pretty weird that she picked you to hold a grudge against, but also that she's doing it in such a passive/aggressive way.

Regular Stormy (Jenny), Friday, 1 October 2010 20:52 (thirteen years ago) link

can i admit that i had the ungenerous response that it sounds like good riddance, because this kristy sounds like a jerk? i have sort of an extreme policy towards dropping people from my life, though.

horseshoe, Friday, 1 October 2010 21:01 (thirteen years ago) link

^ this

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Friday, 1 October 2010 21:01 (thirteen years ago) link

i don't know... it was almost 10 yrs ago now, and why wouldn't she just call me up and say 'i know you knew my ex fucked YOUR friend, why didn't you tell me'. i feel like maybe she blamed me bc if i hadn't been friends w/jane then her ex wouldn't have met/slept with her?? but he would have slept with SOMEONE.

just1n3, Friday, 1 October 2010 21:03 (thirteen years ago) link

xp i actually do too, but i have a terrible need for closure on things and if she had just said 'you fuckin bitch i hate you for x-y-z' then i would have not thought much of dropping her and made no attempt to rekindle the friendship. but it was the complete radio silence that bothered me. i have deep-seated issues about this kind of thing, tbh.

just1n3, Friday, 1 October 2010 21:04 (thirteen years ago) link

but maybe she's just a jerk? and not reflective? and more into mind games than honest communication? if she blames you for her ex boyfriend sleeping with someone after they broke up...i mean, who cares what this person thinks?

horseshoe, Friday, 1 October 2010 21:05 (thirteen years ago) link

xp i get that but i think you should reframe it as the blissful exit of a toxic person from your life.

horseshoe, Friday, 1 October 2010 21:05 (thirteen years ago) link

i know that's all v easy for me to say

horseshoe, Friday, 1 October 2010 21:06 (thirteen years ago) link

i mean, that if you reframe it that way it gives you a closure that's under your control and not at the mercy of this unreliable kristy person.

horseshoe, Friday, 1 October 2010 21:06 (thirteen years ago) link

horseshoe OTM

Regular Stormy (Jenny), Friday, 1 October 2010 21:12 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah i know you're totally right. and it annoys me even more that i'm bothered by the lack of closure.

just1n3, Friday, 1 October 2010 21:13 (thirteen years ago) link

she was so much fun to hang out with, despite her nasty side, and i figured there was a good chance she'd grown out of it.

i identify really strongly with this feeling, but it has historically kept me in friendships i really should have ended. and there are always other fun people to hang out with, who aren't soulcrushingly nasty. i think.

horseshoe, Friday, 1 October 2010 21:14 (thirteen years ago) link

I tend to really be bothered by lack of closure issues too, and I like the idea of reframing.

JuliaA, Friday, 1 October 2010 21:16 (thirteen years ago) link

i stole it from crazy people who act like the drama they made up is reality. why can't i do that with anti-drama, or whatever?

horseshoe, Friday, 1 October 2010 21:17 (thirteen years ago) link

I have a lot of female friends, but it's amazing because no one's catty, everyone is smart and interesting and funny, and we don't spend the whole time talking about boys - which is something I've noticed about other women when I hang out with them. I mean all they do is talk about their boyfriends or husbands or their kids or home remodels. So I guess I got lucky.

homosexual II, Friday, 1 October 2010 21:22 (thirteen years ago) link

that has by and large been my experience with female friends, too, fwiw

horseshoe, Friday, 1 October 2010 21:23 (thirteen years ago) link

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/Mandalion/babes.jpg

homosexual II, Friday, 1 October 2010 21:26 (thirteen years ago) link

there are a lot of boring people out there, but i try not to be friends with them
regardless of gender

i have one female friend from high school who is kind of lol men/"i hate her she's so skinny" but i have long-term loyalty toward her because we've been friends for so long and don't really talk that much. i do not tell her private things anymore. maybe one a year, just so she feels in the loop. she doesn't tell me much either. i guess we mostly pretend to be friends, but i really do enjoy her company that once or twice a year when we get to reminiscing.

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 1 October 2010 21:28 (thirteen years ago) link

nice friends, mandee

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 1 October 2010 21:28 (thirteen years ago) link

We've been friends since highschool, even.

Ha, wow. Bad 1999 style comin' atcha here.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/Mandalion/onebigcouple.jpg

homosexual II, Friday, 1 October 2010 21:30 (thirteen years ago) link

aw!

horseshoe, Friday, 1 October 2010 21:31 (thirteen years ago) link

i stole it from crazy people who act like the drama they made up is reality. why can't i do that with anti-drama, or whatever?

― horseshoe, Friday, October 1, 2010 5:17 PM (Yesterday)

THIS THIS THIS

hoos wears orange camo pants ffs (roxymuzak), Saturday, 2 October 2010 18:24 (thirteen years ago) link

i have known a lot of people who can really convince themselves that they are justified in doing a completely unjustifiable and crazy things. i guess it's all part of being crazy.

hoos wears orange camo pants ffs (roxymuzak), Saturday, 2 October 2010 18:52 (thirteen years ago) link

also mandee i am jealous of your longterm girl friend group there

hoos wears orange camo pants ffs (roxymuzak), Saturday, 2 October 2010 18:56 (thirteen years ago) link

I um, have decided that I need new bras (I only have 2 that I wear right now). I've also realized I need wear a smaller cup size than what I previously believed and what "they" have been telling me. I think I'm actually a AA. I looked around target and there weren't any. Am I going to have to order all my bras online now? I really want to be comfortable and for my boobs to not swim around in my bra, and I don't want dudes to be disappointed when they see one thing with my shirt on and another thing with my shirt off. I don't really wear bras very much, just at work and with certain shirts at certain times. I don't really think the types of dudes I would take my shirt off for would care or even notice but what do I know.

peacocks, Monday, 11 October 2010 20:31 (thirteen years ago) link

Oh, the reason I'm posting that is because I wanted to know if any a ya'll have uncommon boob sizes and what you do about it?

peacocks, Monday, 11 October 2010 20:33 (thirteen years ago) link

i'm pretty average (38c), but one of my best friends is about your size, and she found somewhere to get them that size, i could ask her if you want.

sarahel, Monday, 11 October 2010 20:41 (thirteen years ago) link

That'd be nice. The two bras I wear are from victoria's secret. They are really comfy but they are more like caves than support systems. I went to JC penny a while back and the lady there pointed me to these teen training bra things which just... they were weird. The padding moved around a lot so if I wasn't careful it could look like one of my boobs was underneath my arm pit.

peacocks, Monday, 11 October 2010 20:51 (thirteen years ago) link

I love Bare Necessities online. They have a really good return policy, and I take advantage of that a lot. If you got on their e-mail list, sometimes there are sales and special discounts.

People swear by Nordstrom as well for a wider range of sizes.

Here's a recent article from the New York Times about smaller bras: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/02/fashion/02Small.html?src=me&ref=general

JuliaA, Monday, 11 October 2010 21:39 (thirteen years ago) link

Most of the training bras I've seen are in the AAAA-AAA range, but I've seen some that are AA. Maybe the girl's clothing section would have have what you're looking for?

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Monday, 11 October 2010 23:53 (thirteen years ago) link

i wear a 38F and its impossible to find bras ever, so i wear ones that dont fit until i come into tons of cash (about 3 times in my life) and order a fancy one

(♥_♥) (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 12 October 2010 02:26 (thirteen years ago) link

Thanks juliA! That article explained a lot about how I feel about my boob sitch. I really don't want to wear little girl "training" bras. I never got what we were training for anyway.

peacocks, Tuesday, 12 October 2010 03:27 (thirteen years ago) link

Peacocks, I thought of that article as soon as I saw your post. Seems like it would be such a pain to only find training bra kind of things.

Roxy, have you ever tried eBay? I figured out a few brands/styles that fit me, and on eBay new bras are typically about half the price of retail. (That's still expensive, of course, for full busted bras. But that's a given.) Some sellers have a seven day warranty as well–I look for this, just in case the bra doesn't fit. Though I figure I could always just sell it on eBay if it doesn't work and there isn't a warranty.

JuliaA, Tuesday, 12 October 2010 04:35 (thirteen years ago) link

i have never tried ebay, but i should check it out tbh

for big bras and clothes made for busty ladies (like button down shirts that fit your front but arent huge in the arms etc), bravissimo.com is good

(♥_♥) (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 12 October 2010 04:46 (thirteen years ago) link

I bought a couple of strappy tops from bravissimo back when I was certain that I was a 34D, and never got around to returning them. I keep meaning to sell them on eBay, but haven't gotten around to that. I like the idea of bravissimo, but I'm intimidated by the prices, and by ordering from England.

carissarose.com seems like it has some well-made dressy basics that could be promising, but the prices are intimidating. I'm used to buying only on sale.

JuliaA, Tuesday, 12 October 2010 05:09 (thirteen years ago) link

I like herroom.com for the extensive reviews and the fitting tips, which are pretty OTM in my experience.

Regular Stormy (Jenny), Tuesday, 12 October 2010 12:58 (thirteen years ago) link

her room has great selection and good fitting tips, but the fit calculator tells me I'm a 36A ( I finally figured out that I'm a 36DD/E or 34F). none of the major sites had an accurate guide to measuring yourself. Seems that many bra sites use the outdated fitting instructions that involve adding numbers to your under bust measurement.

This site has a fit guide with good sizing instructions as well as fit tips. It is oriented to people with larger cup sizes generally:

http://breakoutbras.stores.yahoo.net/noname1.html

JuliaA, Tuesday, 12 October 2010 16:23 (thirteen years ago) link

Thanks juliA! That article explained a lot about how I feel about my boob sitch. I really don't want to wear little girl "training" bras. I never got what we were training for anyway.

Beginner corsets for little girls were known as training corsets. This may be where the name came from.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Tuesday, 12 October 2010 16:33 (thirteen years ago) link

For a long time, it was really, really hard to find DD bras in sizes smaller than 40. (I guess manufacturers thought that everyone DD or larger weighed 250+ pounds.) I'm glad that has changed. I'm 38DD, BTW.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Tuesday, 12 October 2010 16:37 (thirteen years ago) link

xp - i'd guess that there were some girls that really looked forward to wearing bras and "becoming a woman" - i was not one of these, but i'm pretty sure we had that discussion way upthread.

sarahel, Tuesday, 12 October 2010 19:50 (thirteen years ago) link

http://cache.jezebel.com/assets/resources/2008/02/areyoutheregoditsmedodai020.jpg

And in other news, my head is rinsed from writing 2000 words about a sexist D4v1d B4il3y photoshoot in 12 hours, without directly accusing DB of sexism.

are you robot? (suzy), Tuesday, 12 October 2010 19:57 (thirteen years ago) link

(like button down shirts that fit your front but arent huge in the arms etc)

^^^^This is my number 1 pet peeve

make it count, son (sunny successor), Tuesday, 12 October 2010 21:14 (thirteen years ago) link

i've got a largish front and big shoulders and arms, so i only have the problem of shirts being too tight and puckery all over or having sleeves so long i feel like i'm playing dress-up.

sarahel, Tuesday, 12 October 2010 21:16 (thirteen years ago) link

i don't have a bust problem but i do not like the drapey, sloppy fit of clothes in stores at this time, nor do i like the fact that no clothing manufacturer seems to know where my waist is. (hint: it is not in the middle of my ribs)

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Tuesday, 12 October 2010 21:19 (thirteen years ago) link

hahaa
tho tbh i am high-waisted so my waist almost is (but isn't)

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 12 October 2010 21:35 (thirteen years ago) link

i hate bras with padding, even tho i own a few, but their padding is thin and doesn't really deserve the name. i call them my winter bras.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 12 October 2010 21:36 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah, i'm high waisted too, but i'll tell you what -- i've bought dresses with belts that, apparently, are supposed to ignore my actual waist and accentuate my mid-rib region. lazy design!

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Tuesday, 12 October 2010 21:36 (thirteen years ago) link

I wear button down shirts a lot (every day at work, for a start, and the nicer ones in the evening too) and it's really hard to even find any in high street clothes shops lately.

My #1 peeve is that I am pretty fattey and once you move up the sizings trousers seem to billow out in the lower back to a ridiculous extent while not being particularly roomy at the front or round the top of the thighs. Am I a weird shape or is this a thing for other people?

what is he like? the guy's a juggalo, man (a passing spacecadet), Tuesday, 12 October 2010 21:41 (thirteen years ago) link

I definitely suffer fro the "if it fits in the butt, it's too big in the waist" problem, leading to the low back gap. Is that what you mean? I sew darts into the waist of pretty much everything.

Regular Stormy (Jenny), Tuesday, 12 October 2010 21:45 (thirteen years ago) link

are you referring to the above-the-butt pucker?

xp - yeah, jenny & i appear to have the same issue

sarahel, Tuesday, 12 October 2010 21:46 (thirteen years ago) link

whenever i see a woman with my same waist/ass proportions walking down the street wearing jeans that are flattering, i want to stop her and ask, "where did you get those jeans?"

sarahel, Tuesday, 12 October 2010 21:48 (thirteen years ago) link

you should do that!

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 12 October 2010 21:55 (thirteen years ago) link

Pretty much, yeah, but sometimes it can even be too tight in the front of the waist while providing enough "butt pucker" in the back waist to, you know, carry my shopping home in, etc

maybe that's what it's there for

what is he like? the guy's a juggalo, man (a passing spacecadet), Tuesday, 12 October 2010 21:55 (thirteen years ago) link

i should, but i often feel self-conscious being a white chick and the women in question being African-American

sarahel, Tuesday, 12 October 2010 21:55 (thirteen years ago) link

do any of you know of any groups in your area or elsewhere that were specifically created to combat sexist police behavior?

(♥_♥) (roxymuzak), Thursday, 14 October 2010 22:46 (thirteen years ago) link

most of the ones in my area are either focused on racism and queer issues

sarahel, Thursday, 14 October 2010 22:49 (thirteen years ago) link

in the past couple of days it seems tons of bad things have happened to people i know that are totally inappropriate

(♥_♥) (roxymuzak), Thursday, 14 October 2010 22:50 (thirteen years ago) link

for example, being pulled over because you vaguely resemble a local prostitute

(♥_♥) (roxymuzak), Thursday, 14 October 2010 22:50 (thirteen years ago) link

i mean !!!

^this actually happened to a girl i know, and they actually said "vaguely"

(♥_♥) (roxymuzak), Thursday, 14 October 2010 22:50 (thirteen years ago) link

i actually had a positive cop interaction last week, after this lying douchebag asshole attempted to cut me off from backing into a parking space across the street from the club where my friends' bands were playing, then accused me of damaging his SIXTEEN THOUSAND DOLLAR BMW WITH MY PIECE OF SHIT TOYOTA. There was no damage. I tried to be civil with the guy, but once he trotted out the word "bitch" - i gave up and walked away.

sarahel, Thursday, 14 October 2010 22:52 (thirteen years ago) link

Area chapter of the National Lawyer's Guild might be a good place to start. ACLU might help. I def know of one (two maybe) local sex worker rights orgs and some community groups focused on police authority abuses in general.

Regular Stormy (Jenny), Thursday, 14 October 2010 23:08 (thirteen years ago) link

omg this GIRLS ROCK!! documentary is killing me with cuteness

just1n3, Saturday, 16 October 2010 03:09 (thirteen years ago) link

Following the sock discussions, I couldn't resist ordering some of the World's Softest Socks. Eagerly awaiting their arrival. Any recommendations for online stockists of good black opaque tights?

ljubljana, Tuesday, 26 October 2010 14:16 (thirteen years ago) link

The best black tights I have ever had are Donna Karan matte jersey - I don't know if they're still made but I have some pairs that are eeeeeeasily 20 years old and appear to be bulletproof. In the meantime, try Tabio (Japanese, expensive) or the budgety British store New Look's 120 denier tights - a fashion editor I know who's tried both says 'better than Chanel'.

"good luck, sycophants!" (suzy), Tuesday, 26 October 2010 15:06 (thirteen years ago) link

i get tights from dance supply stores - figuring they're pretty durable

sarahel, Tuesday, 26 October 2010 19:01 (thirteen years ago) link

There is that as well, beentheredonethatage15, but your standard Danskins are pretty scratchy.

"good luck, sycophants!" (suzy), Tuesday, 26 October 2010 20:02 (thirteen years ago) link

hmm - i have not found danskins to be scratchy

sarahel, Tuesday, 26 October 2010 21:08 (thirteen years ago) link

I have a pair of Danskin fishnets that appear to be immortal but also have this footpad thing that loves to fuck with my toes. I have some black opaque tights that my sister bought me from Old Navy in 2000 that are still going strong but I have no idea if this is a fluke or not.

17th Century Catholic Spain (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 26 October 2010 21:34 (thirteen years ago) link

my oldest sister says the same thing about those DK matte jersey tights

(♥_♥) (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 26 October 2010 22:17 (thirteen years ago) link

What color tights should I wear with a denim skirt?

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 27 October 2010 00:20 (thirteen years ago) link

Any color! Depends more on your top in that case, although you can't go wrong with black.

I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Wednesday, 27 October 2010 00:22 (thirteen years ago) link

The two tops I wear with this skirt are both black, and the shoes are black, too. I have a pair of fishnets that I got for that skirt that I haven't worn yet. (I'll post a picture whenever I get around to it.)

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 27 October 2010 00:32 (thirteen years ago) link

i'd say it depends on how you feel about your legs. Like wear bright colored tights if you feel like you have good legs; wear neutral/dark colors if you don't.

sarahel, Wednesday, 27 October 2010 00:58 (thirteen years ago) link

I do have nice legs, but I've always preferred dark/neutral tights.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 27 October 2010 01:01 (thirteen years ago) link

I got the best purple tights recently and then I wore them to work and was stared at all day. They're strictly non-work tights now but they're still the best.

master of retardment (ENBB), Wednesday, 27 October 2010 01:04 (thirteen years ago) link

If yr tops are black, then tight color or pattern depends more on the skirt length. A bold color or pattern needs some space to work in. If skirt is long, the statement gets cramped. If u like yr legs, work the bold tights with a skirt somewhat above the knee.

I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Wednesday, 27 October 2010 01:29 (thirteen years ago) link

Also, E, I'm very sad to hear abt your tights problem! I say, wear colored tights more often! then they'll stop talking. :)

I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Wednesday, 27 October 2010 01:31 (thirteen years ago) link

>:{

― some droopy HOOS in makeup (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, October 26, 2010 6:07 PM (1 hour ago)

you still have a penis? you can't post here!

sarahel, Wednesday, 27 October 2010 02:33 (thirteen years ago) link

i remember wearing plum colored tights to a certain job and getting looks like i was a wild woman. i didn't realize this could ever be a "thing."

i really love what a denim miniskirt looks like over black tights w/ boots or chuck taylors + a white top and red lipstick, but this is the 90s punk girl in me i think

(♥_♥) (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 27 October 2010 12:13 (thirteen years ago) link

with any top, really

(♥_♥) (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 27 October 2010 12:13 (thirteen years ago) link

I have burnt orange, mustard yellow, and Smurf blue tights, and I wear them all to work. A few people raised their eyebrows or w/e but I don't see why not raising the eyebrows of a few conservative people should be my goal.

I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Wednesday, 27 October 2010 13:02 (thirteen years ago) link

^^ ditto

patterned tights too, stripes (vertical), crocheted, you name it.

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Wednesday, 27 October 2010 14:06 (thirteen years ago) link

Today's are black knit, a bit like if cabling came in strange geometric patterns.

In addition to my archive supply of Donna Karan, I've got tons of grey and dove-grey tights from New Look, plus the better-than-Chanel black ones; hot pink 120 denier from Tabio, but prob won't buy tights from there again because the waist elasticity went in the gunmetal ones I have; an amazing Spandex pair I can't bear to throw from 99X in NYC, with a persimmon/grey/camel/cream/black rendering of a Hokusai-ish pattern, plus tons of dead stock Mary Quant white fishnet anklets - because they were in a dusty shop going for like 50p/pair, I walked off with £10 worth.

"good luck, sycophants!" (suzy), Wednesday, 27 October 2010 14:29 (thirteen years ago) link

suzy, your tights collection sounds A+

(♥_♥) (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 27 October 2010 14:58 (thirteen years ago) link

The Hokusai tights are cool but for years I looked for large-pane harlequin pattern black and white, with no success (and no fucking jewel tones lest I resemble some random RenFester) intending to wear them with Westwood mini-crini and the jacket I'm wearing in my LOL College photos. Usually that outfit demanded black/white hoop tights and brothel creepers, LOL'80s

I really need to do a purge of MOR black tights with safe office-worker patterns and find a good source of whitegirl flesh fishnets w/black seam.

Also: ESM's 30th anniversary is next week and there's a massive party. OH DAER I NEED TO CALL IN A DRESS. If you could call any designer/shop and ask for something to borrow, it would be...?

"good luck, sycophants!" (suzy), Wednesday, 27 October 2010 18:23 (thirteen years ago) link

wow

sarahel, Wednesday, 27 October 2010 18:30 (thirteen years ago) link

Should be noted I have never 'called in a dress' before... generally wear vintage to these things so as not to inadvertently look the same as someone else.

"good luck, sycophants!" (suzy), Wednesday, 27 October 2010 18:33 (thirteen years ago) link

I have some awesome tights with a largish dogtooth pattern, that are actually black and white rather than just patterned black. I love them but they don't really stretch well ;(

Not the real Village People, Wednesday, 27 October 2010 18:37 (thirteen years ago) link

The skirt (the only wearable skirt I own right now, I hope this changes soon) comes up to just below the knee.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 27 October 2010 20:27 (thirteen years ago) link

Rox the demin miniskirt black tights and boots/chucks combo is something I've been wearing often lately minus the red lipstick because it makes me look too clownish.

master of retardment (ENBB), Wednesday, 27 October 2010 22:49 (thirteen years ago) link

lol demin!

master of retardment (ENBB), Wednesday, 27 October 2010 22:50 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah i can't really hack red lipstick either though i wear a variant

for some reason my reddish lipstick tastes like celery

(♥_♥) (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 27 October 2010 23:13 (thirteen years ago) link

Lipstick: Clear cherry red lipgloss looks the best on me, but it's hard to find except for bargain brands. I'm using Maybelline's Color Sensational lipstain in Cherry Pop with a generic clear gloss over it for now.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Thursday, 28 October 2010 00:03 (thirteen years ago) link

YSL pur opium or whatever it's called that i used to love now looks orange on me...this is my eternal red lipstick curse

horseshoe, Thursday, 28 October 2010 00:11 (thirteen years ago) link

I wonder how I can become someone who can 'call in a dress.' that wld be cool. good vintage a-okay by me tho.

I like cherry red lipstick but hardly ever wear it. also recently stopped wearing make-up, save for mascara and a dot or two of cover-up. My skin is pretty much down on its knees thanking me.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Thursday, 28 October 2010 01:19 (thirteen years ago) link

I have so many pairs of tights. but only wear my faves, which then wear out faster :( light-grey tights are the best, imo, but hard to find the right
shade. wld totally wear plum/dark-purple tights :)

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Thursday, 28 October 2010 01:22 (thirteen years ago) link

I like cherry red lipstick but hardly ever wear it. also recently stopped wearing make-up, save for mascara and a dot or two of cover-up. My skin is pretty much down on its knees thanking me.

My skin's actually cleared up just recently even though I'm wearing more makeup than usual. Go figure. I wish I could figure out how to cover up the chickenpox scars on my forehead--I wouldn't be bothered so much if they didn't look so much like pimples and whiteheads.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Thursday, 28 October 2010 01:30 (thirteen years ago) link

Just ordered a bunch of New Look tights online (know them well, but am currently in the US) including the 120 denier. Exciting!

ljubljana, Friday, 29 October 2010 12:16 (thirteen years ago) link

is the pattern company New Look related to this store?

admin loghorrea (sarahel), Friday, 29 October 2010 18:12 (thirteen years ago) link

IDK. On the party dress front, am going with very old flapper dress and HAIR UP to celebrate growing out a graduated bob, instead of calling in some Margiela.

"good luck, sycophants!" (suzy), Wednesday, 3 November 2010 14:12 (thirteen years ago) link

I like the World's Softest Socks, but they are going to stretch my shoes.

ljubljana, Wednesday, 3 November 2010 22:31 (thirteen years ago) link

two weeks pass...

... and the New Look tights are great, but they think I'm about 5 inches taller than I am.

ljubljana, Monday, 22 November 2010 00:08 (thirteen years ago) link

Oh I got some awesome tights a couple weeks ago - purple and bright blue. They're by Hue and are "super opaque". So far, so good.

ENBB, Monday, 22 November 2010 00:46 (thirteen years ago) link

ob Ultra tampons are discontinued? NOOOOOO

And there seems to be a shortage of all the other ones FUUUUUUCK.

Do I have to go over to the Diva Cup side??

tokyo rosemary, Thursday, 2 December 2010 15:47 (thirteen years ago) link

I'm wearing super hero-blue tights today! Love. Need a certain vendor to come through with their annual gift card so I can stock up at Macy's!

I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Thursday, 2 December 2010 16:04 (thirteen years ago) link

Diva Cup! Do it!!

What are OB Ultra? Like Super Duper Plus? (I'm way out of the tampon loop due to Diva Cup adoption years and years ago.)

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Thursday, 2 December 2010 20:57 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah they are next level above Super Plus, and good for heavy periods. There are a lot of angry women posting on the internet about this!!

Ha, they still make Lil-lets in super plus extra (aka ultra) (and also lite!! I love those, too) in the UK & Ireland, maybe I need my cousins who are moving to Ireland to send me some.

tokyo rosemary, Thursday, 2 December 2010 21:11 (thirteen years ago) link

They.Did.What?!?!?

No more OB Ultras?

What the hell?

I go through them at a rate of one every two hours at the start of my period. This is going to be a serious problem.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Thursday, 2 December 2010 21:14 (thirteen years ago) link

Seriously. Diva Cup. The literature says some shit about how it holds more than many women menstruate in an entire cycle!!!!! which is nonsense for me because my period is like an Event around which I must organize my life for at least two days but still, it does the trick much better than any tampon I have used. I can get like four hours of use before I have to empty it, even on dreaded Day Two.

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Thursday, 2 December 2010 21:21 (thirteen years ago) link

yesss, diva cup.

from what I remember reading, the average woman menstruates a volume of two or three diva cups in an entire cycle. It is very possible to overflow one quickly, but that generally happens to people that are not–quite–normal. (Growth on my pituitary makes my cycle fuxored. that's what I blame, anyway)

My entire wardrobe was black for a very long time because I stained my clothing every month, despite obsessive changing of pads and tampons. Now I've been using the diva cup for years, and it's so much easier.

JuliaA, Thursday, 2 December 2010 21:41 (thirteen years ago) link

Was reading something funny about someone else's experience w the Diva Cup today, and one person noted in the comments that it's one of the longest-measuring menstrual cups on the market and not everyone is...that size. Just FYI, different brands of cup might work better for different people.

I'm going to look into something else, cos I'm pretty sure my Keeper is not going to be okay with an IUD (the Keeper pulls a pretty damn strong seal in my experience) and I'm sure the market has come a long way since 1997, which is when I bought it.

I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Thursday, 2 December 2010 21:51 (thirteen years ago) link

god yall. my periods are so light i rarely have to use anything at all, tbh

tim lincecum in a giants snuggie (roxymuzak), Thursday, 2 December 2010 22:01 (thirteen years ago) link

Same here, for years I bled less than one Keeper-full over my entire period. Kinda stopped using it, actually, cos it was slightly diff to get in and out, and it seemed like overkill. Like wearing a flak jacket to a snow-ball fight.

I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Thursday, 2 December 2010 22:02 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah, I'm the same. Laurel last I checked IUD users were warned against using keepers/moon cups etc. because of the risk of accidentally yanking it out when removing the cup. That's the reason I've never tried one. I'm not at all squeamish but the idea of yanking out my IUD is really unpleasant.

ENBB, Thursday, 2 December 2010 22:14 (thirteen years ago) link

I had to have mine removed the other day cos it had migrated too far downward. Not sure if it was in process of expelling or if I accidentally moved it when the strings suddenly got much more reachable a couple of weeks ago. I thought it was expelling at the time, but the docs said the strings could have been looped up before and I just hadn't realized how long they were until that moment. I uh...may have pulled on them too hard trying to see how far they reached, cos I was in a big of a panic that it was on the way out right that second.

Will wait a month and do it all again.

I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Thursday, 2 December 2010 22:19 (thirteen years ago) link

Man, you're brave lady. I checked mine religiously the fist couple months but now I pretty much just trust that it's staying put. I should probably remember to check every now and then. Good luck with the reinsertion.

ENBB, Thursday, 2 December 2010 22:22 (thirteen years ago) link

god yall. my periods are so light i rarely have to use anything at all, tbh

Soooooo envious. I will bleed 3-4 Diva Cups on Day Two alone. (Totes normal, no cramps, just one insanely heavy day per cycle (the rest are manageable)).

When I was on hormonal bc it was lighter and w/ a Mirena IUD I had no period at all, which used to bug me but now I miss those carefree days.

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Thursday, 2 December 2010 22:26 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah i think i make less than one or maybe slightly more than one, i can leave it in for 24 hours w/ no problem. it's pretty good.

john water (harbl), Friday, 3 December 2010 00:34 (thirteen years ago) link

I used a Diva Cup once, when I was at a nursing clinical and had left all of my tampons in the car. (It was the only thing I could find in the lounge bathroom.) It worked OK for the four hours left that I was there and then the seal broke open, staining my scrubs, underwear, the concrete of the parking lot of the hospital, and caused me to make faces and run to the bathroom in front of my instructors, which contributed to them considering me too unstable to stay in school. I haven't used one since.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 3 December 2010 15:36 (thirteen years ago) link

pms mood swings almost made me lose my damn mind yesterday, wtf
drank a lot of pms tea last night and today = better
being a girl is crazytimes sometimes

(will never go back to tampons - have been using a keeper and then a diva cup since 1999!)

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Monday, 6 December 2010 01:04 (thirteen years ago) link

what does it mean when your bf asks you what kind of jewels you like

tim lincecum in a giants snuggie (roxymuzak), Monday, 6 December 2010 04:54 (thirteen years ago) link

He wants to know if you want a Diva Cup.

Stop Non-Erotic Cabaret (Abbbottt), Monday, 6 December 2010 04:55 (thirteen years ago) link

lol if he got me a diva cup i would be really confused

tim lincecum in a giants snuggie (roxymuzak), Monday, 6 December 2010 04:59 (thirteen years ago) link

esp if inside it was an engagement ring w yr most-hated gemstone

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Monday, 6 December 2010 05:28 (thirteen years ago) link

that would be painful?

sarahel, Monday, 6 December 2010 10:51 (thirteen years ago) link

loling hard at most hated gemstone

tim lincecum in a giants snuggie (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 7 December 2010 02:17 (thirteen years ago) link

i suppose it would be a peridot

tim lincecum in a giants snuggie (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 7 December 2010 02:17 (thirteen years ago) link

an engagement diva cup for your periodot

sarahel, Tuesday, 7 December 2010 02:21 (thirteen years ago) link

hahaha what a nightmare

some christmas

my bf gives me a peridot in a diva cup

i dont know what to believe

tim lincecum in a giants snuggie (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 7 December 2010 02:23 (thirteen years ago) link

It should be BLOOD DIAMONDS in a Diva Cup.

tokyo rosemary, Tuesday, 7 December 2010 03:35 (thirteen years ago) link

omg

tim lincecum in a giants snuggie (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 7 December 2010 03:39 (thirteen years ago) link

so awkward

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 7 December 2010 03:47 (thirteen years ago) link

im going to ask for a lincecum jersey and trivial pursuit

tim lincecum in a giants snuggie (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 7 December 2010 03:47 (thirteen years ago) link

so the wedding ring would come in a keeper?

sarahel, Tuesday, 7 December 2010 05:23 (thirteen years ago) link

he would hand it to me during the ceremony wrapped up in a maxi pad

tim lincecum in a giants snuggie (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 7 December 2010 05:45 (thirteen years ago) link

would it have wings?

sarahel, Tuesday, 7 December 2010 07:37 (thirteen years ago) link

"on the wings of love" -- yr song

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Tuesday, 7 December 2010 13:41 (thirteen years ago) link

omg u guys

tim lincecum in a giants snuggie (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 7 December 2010 20:20 (thirteen years ago) link

...and then serve blood oranges at the reception.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Tuesday, 7 December 2010 20:49 (thirteen years ago) link

SANGRIA.

kate78, Tuesday, 7 December 2010 20:58 (thirteen years ago) link

Perhaps you could do a reading from Bodas de Sangre to mark your eternal union.

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Tuesday, 7 December 2010 22:56 (thirteen years ago) link

love u guys

Hey sarahel I am in Oakland, are you by chance free for a drink tomorrow? I have access to wheels and/or a driver (little bro, fellow Oakland denizen).

quincie, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 17:50 (thirteen years ago) link

i have to work until 9 at SFM0M@ but after that - most definitely!

sarahel, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 22:07 (thirteen years ago) link

owwwww cramps
menstruation truly amazes me and i think it is awesome how our bodies do it but holy shit sometimes. owww. (mine last only like not even a full day on day 1 so i will shut up tho)

a friend of mine doesn't drink coffee in the first few days of her period b/c then she doesn't have bad cramps.
i've obviously take the side of coffee.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Saturday, 11 December 2010 19:55 (thirteen years ago) link

i played a gig last night, and it had been raining for the past few days, so it was humid, and my hair totally ended up looking like the Deep Purple dude we'd talked about in this thread last year.

narc of small differences (sarahel), Saturday, 11 December 2010 22:01 (thirteen years ago) link

it's an ongoing dialogue all day long, doesn't understand women who don't like to talk about love and relationships
discus

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/39/2010/12/500x_custom_1292253863591_reesequote_getty_970.jpg

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 13:33 (thirteen years ago) link

literally

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 13:33 (thirteen years ago) link

that makes me sad, i literally thought of her as a more intelligent interesting person for some reason

positive reflection is the key (harbl), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 13:35 (thirteen years ago) link

on the other hand, i can't imagine how many inane things i have said that would look 500x more inane in bold red text next to a guileless picture of me

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 13:55 (thirteen years ago) link

That's basically what I was just going to say.

˙❤‿❤˙˙❤‿❤˙ (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 13:56 (thirteen years ago) link

in spite of this, her new movie looks terrible

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 14:00 (thirteen years ago) link

but i blame grody old jack nicholson

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 14:00 (thirteen years ago) link

thank god he's not playing the love interest

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 18:13 (thirteen years ago) link

or is he????

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 18:13 (thirteen years ago) link

what hath hollywood wrought

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 18:14 (thirteen years ago) link

Monstrosity.

Jesus Christ, the apple tree! (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 18:15 (thirteen years ago) link

i think he is "the dad" or "the father figure" or sthg
either way he is disgusting

if the posters are to be believed, love interests are BLONDE GUY (whatshisname, the goofy blonde guy) and BRUNETTE GUY (paul rudd)

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 18:18 (thirteen years ago) link

that makes me sad, i literally thought of her as a more intelligent interesting person for some reason

― positive reflection is the key (harbl), Tuesday, December 14, 2010 8:35 AM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i always think of reese witherspoon as a really canny person, always constructing her public persona to fit the movies she's appearing in.

i saw a commercial for the movie that showed scenes intercut with an interview with her and she intimated that she had a little crush on jack nicholson and i was like oh, reese, you don't have to do this.

horseshoe, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 18:21 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah it's owen wilson v paul rudd

horseshoe, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 18:22 (thirteen years ago) link

oh, reese, you don't have to do this.
ahahaha! srsly. actors are so weird.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 18:28 (thirteen years ago) link

it was sort of funny because the steely glint in her eye as she said it totally betrayed the sentiment

horseshoe, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 18:28 (thirteen years ago) link

or belied it or whatever

horseshoe, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 18:29 (thirteen years ago) link

i predict she will be playing many an unhinged-mother character soon enough if she doesn't play her cards right

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 18:32 (thirteen years ago) link

i like owen wilson and paul rudd but not as romantic leads - partly b/c they both remind me of my brothers! (tho my bros are better lookin tbrr)

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 18:33 (thirteen years ago) link

so this movie is probably totally lost on me from the get go

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 18:35 (thirteen years ago) link

Who decided that Owen was the hot Wilson Bro. when it's obviously Luke?

kate78, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 18:48 (thirteen years ago) link

^^ I'm sayin! Luke is so much more handsome. I don't think Owen is good looking at all.

˙❤‿❤˙˙❤‿❤˙ (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 19:02 (thirteen years ago) link

they are both super-dreamy imo--also the other wilson brother was in whip it and he is also dreamy; they are a national treasure, the wilsons.

horseshoe, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 19:04 (thirteen years ago) link

i watched Zodiac again the other night, which made me think of this thread and the crucial question, who is cutest:

jake vs. mark ruffalo vs. roberty downey jr

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 20:34 (thirteen years ago) link

Ruff tooooootally not hot to me so..../whois jake again?

Jesus Christ, the apple tree! (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 20:48 (thirteen years ago) link

Jake Gyllenhaal? sooooo cuuuute!

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 20:48 (thirteen years ago) link

oh I don't think he's cute at all

˙❤‿❤˙˙❤‿❤˙ (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 20:49 (thirteen years ago) link

peaked at like 17 sadly

˙❤‿❤˙˙❤‿❤˙ (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 20:50 (thirteen years ago) link

I can never remember what Mark Ruffalo looks like and then when I look him up for the umpteenth time, I am always surprised because he never looks like I thought he was going to look like. Also there is some other actor who looks like Mark Ruffalo and I when I do see Mark Ruffalo, I always think it's this other actor.

So I could never pick him as the cutest bc he causes great confusion in my life and I deeply resent it.

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 20:51 (thirteen years ago) link

I can probably never forgive Jake for that Prince of Persia nonsense so he's out.

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 20:52 (thirteen years ago) link

haha - i'm the same about the guy, the one who plays the pretty blond guy in Fight Club, but has been in a lot of movies since - and i perpetually confuse him with Joaquin Phoenix

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 20:53 (thirteen years ago) link

I watched Walk the Line so now J. Phoenix is well known in my head. Mark Ruffalo clearly needs to star in something I either like or totally despise so I will remember who the shit he is.

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 20:58 (thirteen years ago) link

may i recommend you can count on me

horseshoe, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 20:58 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah, i saw Reservation Road, and now I am clear on who Joaquin Phoenix is, but the other guy, i mean, i still can't remember his name ...

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 20:59 (thirteen years ago) link

^^ also stars Mark Ruffalo!

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 20:59 (thirteen years ago) link

Will I like or despise You Can Count on Me? Has Mark Ruffalo starred in any 19th century period costume dramas that I might enjoy?

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:03 (thirteen years ago) link

boy

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:04 (thirteen years ago) link

worryingly it's been a full twelve minutes since mark ruffalo was cited on this thread and there's still no sign of horseshoe.

― estela, Friday, September 10, 2010 7:48 AM (3 months ago) Bookmark

estela, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:06 (thirteen years ago) link

does anyone have horseshoe's number?

― goole, Friday, September 10, 2010 7:49 AM (3 months ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

1-888-ruffalo

― The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, September 10, 2010 7:50 AM (3 months ago) Bookmark

estela, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:07 (thirteen years ago) link

hahaha

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:07 (thirteen years ago) link

jenny, i think you'd like it! i don't think he's been in any 19th century period dramas, sadly.

xp haha rotten estela

horseshoe, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:07 (thirteen years ago) link

if you guys have any other ruffalo questions i'm available

horseshoe, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:08 (thirteen years ago) link

i was actually idly thinking the other day that rdj and ruffalo seem to belong to the same family of hot, by which i guess i mean BRUNETTES

horseshoe, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:09 (thirteen years ago) link

Put a cravat on a dude and I'll remember him forever.

Still giggling at 1-888-Ruffalo...

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:09 (thirteen years ago) link

where does Rob Lowe fit into that schema? young Rob Lowe was one of my faves

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:10 (thirteen years ago) link

I think rdj and ruffalo sorta look alike in that they'd look nothing like one another stood side by side but yet somehow they remind me of one another sorta way

˙❤‿❤˙˙❤‿❤˙ (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:10 (thirteen years ago) link

Rob Lowe looks nothing like them but is very handsome albeit a little creepy somehow. Rob Lowe circa St. Elmo's Fire = impossibly dreamy.

˙❤‿❤˙˙❤‿❤˙ (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:11 (thirteen years ago) link

like when i was teenager and first heard the Sex Pistols' song "Problem" at the end, I thought Johnny was actually singing "Rob Lowe, Rob Lowe, Rob Lowe ..."

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:11 (thirteen years ago) link

right? they share a vibe imo

xxp

horseshoe, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:11 (thirteen years ago) link

1-888-ruffalo kills me.

horseshoe has excellent taste in dreamboats.

estela, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:12 (thirteen years ago) link

<3 u and Amanda are rotten to the core <3

horseshoe, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:12 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah they totally share a vibe

˙❤‿❤˙˙❤‿❤˙ (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:13 (thirteen years ago) link

really? i think RDj and Rob Lowe share a vibe -- they both have that kinda creepy, sleazy quality, but Ruffalo seems more down-to-earth

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:14 (thirteen years ago) link

rob lowe is too pretty, though

horseshoe, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:15 (thirteen years ago) link

yep was going to say exactly that

I appreciate the prettiness though but it removes him from the RDJ/Ruffalo group

˙❤‿❤˙˙❤‿❤˙ (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:16 (thirteen years ago) link

he's not too pretty for me!

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:16 (thirteen years ago) link

and Jake G. is like what my friend Jen calls "gimpy" -- dorky, socially awkward guys that are really cute but have no clue that they are.

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:17 (thirteen years ago) link

I like my not-pretty men to go craggy and mean-looking with age, but Mark Ruffalo has gone sort of...bloaty? harmless-looking? Also, all those beard experiments are...eeurgh.

Jesus Christ, the apple tree! (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:19 (thirteen years ago) link

i love you Laurel but so much rong

horseshoe, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:20 (thirteen years ago) link

what about Christian Bale's beard experiments?

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:21 (thirteen years ago) link

christian bale has to stop losing weight for movies it is terrifying

horseshoe, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:21 (thirteen years ago) link

i also watched the first Bale batman movie again, and there's one part where he has really good hair. i think it's when he goes to the trial of the guy that killed his parents.

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:22 (thirteen years ago) link

MR was in Inception, which I just watched last week, and I was, like, "Who's the bloated guy who isn't at all good looking compared to the rest of the (predictably a certain kind of 'dashing') cast?"

Jesus Christ, the apple tree! (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:23 (thirteen years ago) link

Leo DeCaprio has gotten kinda bloaty too

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:24 (thirteen years ago) link

christian bale has to stop losing weight for movies it is terrifying

― horseshoe, Tuesday, December 14, 2010 4:21 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

This. I think he's one of the most amazing looking ppl ever but he's going to wreck himself if he keeps doing that and wind up looking like Ethan Hawke (RIP) or something.

˙❤‿❤˙˙❤‿❤˙ (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:26 (thirteen years ago) link

Re Leo - I think that's just how he aged, like Alec Baldwin. He's about to play famous Chicago serial killer H. H. Holmes, and probably wear a cravat while doing it, so I'm withholding final judgment until I see that movie.

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:27 (thirteen years ago) link

i am long due for a binge on period costume dramas

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:27 (thirteen years ago) link

xp re LdC: I know, but it doesn't sit the same way on him. For one thing, he looks like Evil Santa packed the extra presents in the bags under his eyes.

Jesus Christ, the apple tree! (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:28 (thirteen years ago) link

i love ruffalo's voice.

estela, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:28 (thirteen years ago) link

you know who has an amazing voice? Ryan Phillipe. His voice turned him from a dude who looks weirdly like Justin Timberlake into top 5 dreamboat material for me.

˙❤‿❤˙˙❤‿❤˙ (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:29 (thirteen years ago) link

xp - oh totally - Leo used to be a pretty boy, but he got bloaty so it's worse than Ruffalo who just looks like a normal guy getting older.

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:30 (thirteen years ago) link

I respect it when pretty actors let themselves bloat up when they get older instead of fighting it with food/exercise-related insanity and plastic surgery. Stars! They're just like us!!!

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:36 (thirteen years ago) link

oh sure, i'm just saying at this point ruffalo is better looking than Leo

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:36 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah, that's true.

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:38 (thirteen years ago) link

No, see, I LIKE the mean eyebrows and the bags under his eyes. Ach but who cares.

Jesus Christ, the apple tree! (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:42 (thirteen years ago) link

for me, he has been at every point. xp

estela, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:42 (thirteen years ago) link

how prevalent are Mad Men themed holiday place-of-employment parties this year? it seems like "the thing"

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:44 (thirteen years ago) link

estela otm about ruffalo > leo + ruffalo having the best voice

horseshoe, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:50 (thirteen years ago) link

This. I think he's one of the most amazing looking ppl ever but he's going to wreck himself if he keeps doing that and wind up looking like Ethan Hawke (RIP) or something.

― ˙❤‿❤˙˙❤‿❤˙ (ENBB), Tuesday, December 14, 2010 4:26 PM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark

i just feel like at this point for him acting is a pretext for experimenting with starvation and it is upsetting

horseshoe, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:51 (thirteen years ago) link

what happened to ethan hawke?

sarahel, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 21:52 (thirteen years ago) link

I don't know what happened to Ethan Hawke and I'm not trying to change the subject (well I am but bc I'm burning with curiosity on this new thing, and not because I don't care about Ethan Hawke, because I do care) but what is the body shape/pants fit issue that causes some women's pants to wedge permanently in their butt cracks? Don't they notice? Doesn't this make them unhappy? Why does this happen and how can I avoid it?

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 22:42 (thirteen years ago) link

I don't know Jenny but those are some damn good questions imo.

Nothing happened to Ethan. I just meant that his hotness (and goddamn he was good looking once in a far away land) seemed to die a long time ago largely, I think, due to excessive skinniness.

˙❤‿❤˙˙❤‿❤˙ (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 23:00 (thirteen years ago) link

i have enjoyed the extremely kind eyes of this guy, ben chaplin
http://www.jupeal.com/Actores/B/Ben_Chaplin/BenChaplin.jpg

if i had to choose an actor to be stranded on an island with, it would probably be viggo mortensen.

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 23:06 (thirteen years ago) link

Jenny: I think it happens if you have more butt than your pants do or you have some combination of "more butt" and "longer rise"?

Think of it like this: the part of the jeans that your cheeks fill out is just fabric on an angle, and it stretches around the body underneath. But the seam that runs through the crotch is stabilized and reinforced and it DOESN'T stretch. It is as generous inside, fit-wise, as it's going to get.

If you have kind of a flat ass, this will probably never happen to you?

Jesus Christ, the apple tree! (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 23:06 (thirteen years ago) link

Oh ben chaplin is v cute. He is the main reason I've seen The Truth About Cat and Dogs errr several times.

˙❤‿❤˙˙❤‿❤˙ (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 23:07 (thirteen years ago) link

sup ladies i took this photo of myself who wants to party

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radioassets/photos/2010/7/3/83310_2.jpg

skrrr boi (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 23:10 (thirteen years ago) link

:O

kanellos (gbx), Tuesday, 14 December 2010 23:10 (thirteen years ago) link

no skrr bois allowed in the room

estela, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 23:16 (thirteen years ago) link

s---- b--s

estela, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 23:17 (thirteen years ago) link

Mark Ruffalo has the dreamiest voice ever.

I went on a date with a dude from Okcupid who was kind of a dork and not exceptionally hot but he had a MR voice and that kinda made me have a crush.

homosexual II, Tuesday, 14 December 2010 23:48 (thirteen years ago) link

oh horseshoe, whenever Mark Ruffalo is in my local paper about his opposition to fracking, I think of you.

tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, 15 December 2010 00:35 (thirteen years ago) link

Heard "women's interest programming" on morning edition today -- farcical piece about how the phosphates have been removed from dishwasher detergent without any notice to the public, and how this shocking environmentally-motivated move has affected the women who depend on this detergent. They were more or less outraged and "pulling their hair out" over this. I hope this was supposed to be a little bit funny? Lite news that doesn't hurt anyone?

On the other hand, women with large families in the US have grown accustomed to relying on these machines (all the way back to clothes washing machines) in order to have jobs, to take care of home and still have time to stay pretty...i mean, maybe saying that it's funny is kind of not deep enough.

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 14:42 (thirteen years ago) link

phosphates in the war against feminism?

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 15:06 (thirteen years ago) link

what a weird angle

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 15:06 (thirteen years ago) link

"women's interest programming" is consistently boggling if nothing else

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 15:07 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah it was totally weird. the one bright spot (if you can call it that) was that they also consulted an environmental expert and a woman who was mixing her own blend of detergent and phosphate she got at the hardware store.

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 15:13 (thirteen years ago) link

"girls night out ad" gis yields many more scintillating img results

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 15:25 (thirteen years ago) link

The last one is my favorite.

Women's interest programming that is limited to cleaning or babies or shopping is one of my major pet peeved. Jeff does the dishes in our casa, dammit.

(Consumer Reports rated Finish Quantum as the best no phosphate dish detergent, btw, with the much cheaper Finish Power Ball as a best buy.)

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 15:49 (thirteen years ago) link

this may be the time and place, while we're talking about women's programming, to note one of my favorite Lifetime conventions, for which i have repurposed a phrase:

you know that moment in commercials or shows with women in them where there are two girlfriends and they are enjoying a beverage and one of them grabs her glass with both hands? usually coffee/tea or wine?

that's a double clutch. it's everywhere! who does that?

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 16:07 (thirteen years ago) link

i kinda sometimes might do that

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 17:56 (thirteen years ago) link

when i'm cold usually

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 17:56 (thirteen years ago) link

i'd think it would depend on the shape/design of the glass

sarahel, Wednesday, 15 December 2010 18:08 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah, I think maybe I do this sometimes too.

˙❤‿❤˙˙❤‿❤˙ (ENBB), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 18:13 (thirteen years ago) link

they do make those ceramic cups that don't have handles -- i can see doing the double clutch with those. But the cup pictures in the stock photo? That doesn't make sense to me.

sarahel, Wednesday, 15 December 2010 18:27 (thirteen years ago) link

classic double clutch -- superfluous use of two hands to connote warmth or emotion or "heart"

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 18:32 (thirteen years ago) link

that looks like it would result in drink spillage moreso than the conventional method of holding the cup by the handle

sarahel, Wednesday, 15 December 2010 18:38 (thirteen years ago) link

"women hold cups like this..."

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 18:43 (thirteen years ago) link

It looks like the modern representation of the classic silent movie femme fatale gesture - that ott hand clasping prayer-like move.

Jaq, Wednesday, 15 December 2010 18:45 (thirteen years ago) link

i do the double clutch on coffee/tea mugs sometimes, usually followed my propping my chin on the rim and then making stupid faces over the top (esp if there is steam!)

double clutch on a wine glass would be sheer madness though.

crushing the frantic penguins (c sharp major), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 19:02 (thirteen years ago) link

A family friend gave us wine glasses which hold 500ml each. Think I've done the double-clutch on those. They are a bit excessive, seeing as if you fill the glass you only have a half-glass left in the bottle for the next person.

Double-clutch on a coffee mug says either "it's freezing in here" or "I don't trust this mug handle not to snap off" to me.

moiré eel (a passing spacecadet), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 19:06 (thirteen years ago) link

or "wow, the world is cold but i am basking in the warmth of female frenz"

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 19:08 (thirteen years ago) link

off topic: i just got a gift from a student that is a cute little tunic and leggings that i actually like!
thanks, student!

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 19:09 (thirteen years ago) link

xp - it's like the "he's got the whole world in his hands" gesture, except because it's a woman, she is holding a refreshing beverage

sarahel, Wednesday, 15 December 2010 19:30 (thirteen years ago) link

^^^^LULZ...

tl;dr swinton (suzy), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 19:30 (thirteen years ago) link

aha the pure distilled essence of the double clutch

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 19:51 (thirteen years ago) link

Ultimate lady gesture: double clutching phosphate-free dishwasher detergent. Or non-fat yogurt flavored to taste like the real food you shan't ever enjoy.

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 21:29 (thirteen years ago) link

Urgent change of topic. Please review this dress. Is the seam thingy supposed to sit under my chest? Because if so, I feel very overexposed. Or across the middle of my chest?

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/ruthjlee/5264107595/"; title="photo by ruthjlee, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5283/5264107595_1fe7851603.jpg"; width="320" height="240" alt="photo" /></a>

ljubljana, Wednesday, 15 December 2010 22:03 (thirteen years ago) link

Gah!

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5283/5264107595_1fe7851603.jpg

ljubljana, Wednesday, 15 December 2010 22:03 (thirteen years ago) link

Under, and if you feel over-exposed as a result, it is an issue of the bust being too small. (As a woman with large knockers, I sympathize acutely with your plight.)

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 22:12 (thirteen years ago) link

This where double-clutching your bottle of phosphate dishwasher detergent could come in handy.

Jaq, Wednesday, 15 December 2010 22:14 (thirteen years ago) link

(is where! geez)

Jaq, Wednesday, 15 December 2010 22:15 (thirteen years ago) link

Thank you! Boobs are only 34c but shape seems to have sagged :-(

ljubljana, Wednesday, 15 December 2010 22:44 (thirteen years ago) link

the shape of the dress or your boobs?

sarahel, Wednesday, 15 December 2010 22:54 (thirteen years ago) link

It's not a problem w/ your boobs. With dresses like that, you seriously have to luck into one that is coincidentally cut just perfect for you to get a good, properly exposed fit.

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Wednesday, 15 December 2010 22:56 (thirteen years ago) link

Boobs sagging, not dress. But yeah, it probably never fit that great! I'm not very good at these things.

ljubljana, Wednesday, 15 December 2010 23:11 (thirteen years ago) link

my policy of never wearing boob-featuring clothes saves me a whole lot of trouble.

estela, Wednesday, 15 December 2010 23:18 (thirteen years ago) link

Am now wearing a flapper-style dress revealing nothing, but at least it's sparkly. I hate work parties. I am wearing all the wrong accessories and I don't care.

ljubljana, Thursday, 16 December 2010 00:15 (thirteen years ago) link

that's the spirit<3

estela, Thursday, 16 December 2010 00:21 (thirteen years ago) link

Ooh ooh I'm going to read it RIGHT NOW.

Jesus Christ, the apple tree! (Laurel), Thursday, 16 December 2010 15:10 (thirteen years ago) link

'Well, if you're really having that hard of a problem, maybe you should wash your dishes by hand.' Which I thought was kind of strange for an automatic dishwashing company."

a. She's right, it is.
b. But more companies should tell the truth about their products and their limitations, so I want to really like that guy for saying that?
c. But this is something that overwhelmingly falls on women, so to be all "What's your problem with doing more difficult, dirty work even though your labor-saving device was supposed to enable you to live two lives in the space of one? Now get back in the kitchen and quit yer whining" makes me want to put HIM in the dishwasher.

Jesus Christ, the apple tree! (Laurel), Thursday, 16 December 2010 15:17 (thirteen years ago) link

d. This is not news.

Jesus Christ, the apple tree! (Laurel), Thursday, 16 December 2010 15:20 (thirteen years ago) link

laurel otm about all those

ENBB, Thursday, 16 December 2010 15:21 (thirteen years ago) link

Two times.

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Thursday, 16 December 2010 16:29 (thirteen years ago) link

I get equally itchy when people get all judgey about "processed food" and the importance of cooking from scratch. As my family's primary cook and holder of a full time job (oh and a part time teaching gig) I invite those people to eat me.

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Thursday, 16 December 2010 16:32 (thirteen years ago) link

I used to be judgey about that until I discovered Trader Joe's. They really DO sell everything natural and still organic an' shit but already washed and trimmed. And how do they get it so CHEAP??

Jesus Christ, the apple tree! (Laurel), Thursday, 16 December 2010 16:49 (thirteen years ago) link

La la la la I'm sure they manage it ethically and in a way that does not violate my principles vis a vis the value of labor la la la la

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Thursday, 16 December 2010 17:00 (thirteen years ago) link

My mother has just been complaining that a pound of butter costs $5. She swears it was $1.99 a couple of months back.

tl;dr swinton (suzy), Thursday, 16 December 2010 18:32 (thirteen years ago) link

My mom arrived from AUS on Saturday. She watched Eat Love Pray on one of the flights and was understandably not impressed and kind of pissed of by it. She did note however:"...but oh my god that James Franco is GORGEOUS. JUST GORGEOUS!!"

OTM, Moms.

calling planet dearth (sunny successor), Monday, 20 December 2010 17:57 (thirteen years ago) link

lol

ENBB, Tuesday, 21 December 2010 01:26 (thirteen years ago) link

<3

ENBB, Tuesday, 21 December 2010 01:26 (thirteen years ago) link

christmas presents from mom:

i asked for: a pepper grinder
i got: a Peugot pepper grinder filled with pepper, and another large container of peppercorns

i asked for: a cupcake baking tin
i got: a cupcake baking tin, a multi-level baking rack

also: a large container of paperclips and decorative binder clips, a half dozen different kinds of cleaning "wipes," a pack of five kitchen towels (she gives me a pack of kitchen towels every year; this year, she finally acknowledged that i might have more kitchen towels than i really need)

sarahel, Tuesday, 28 December 2010 20:57 (thirteen years ago) link

GUYS A GOT A PURPLE FEDORA WITH SEQUINS ON IT.

My parents think I'm Prince.

ENBB, Tuesday, 28 December 2010 20:58 (thirteen years ago) link

wow!

sarahel, Tuesday, 28 December 2010 20:59 (thirteen years ago) link

re: kitchen towels
sometimes they get gross and you have to replace the old ones -- always good to have some new fresh ones on hand!
love your mom

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Tuesday, 28 December 2010 20:59 (thirteen years ago) link

my parents gave me some chocolate, darkness on the edge of town box, copy of all the presidents men signed by woodward AND bernstein, and a petsmart gift card. shockingly excellent work on their behalf!

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Tuesday, 28 December 2010 21:01 (thirteen years ago) link

x-post - Yep. Wow is pretty much all what I said when I opened it.

ENBB, Tuesday, 28 December 2010 21:01 (thirteen years ago) link

wow is right

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Tuesday, 28 December 2010 21:02 (thirteen years ago) link

see, that's the difference between me & her -- the gross ones I repurpose for cleaning the oily gunk off the stove or as paint rags or oil rags for the car.

sarahel, Tuesday, 28 December 2010 21:02 (thirteen years ago) link

the surface area of kitchen towels that she has given me that i still have exceeds that of my kitchen.

sarahel, Tuesday, 28 December 2010 21:13 (thirteen years ago) link

kitchen floor, that is.

sarahel, Tuesday, 28 December 2010 21:13 (thirteen years ago) link

I always need kitchen towels. Hook me up.

I asked for:
Socks, not knee-highs, in dark colors.
Flannel nightgown (hush. I'm old, married, and live in Chicago plus I was trying to play to my mom's shopping strengths) with the helpful hint "blue is my favorite color."

I got:
Purple striped knee-highs and acid green and purple slipper socks
Micro fleece nightgowns in lavender and red. They were the right size at least. Plus I'll happily wear them, its just an example of how the woman doesn't listen.
An assortment of annoying and unnecessary kitchen shit that I'll never use like an artsy spaghetti measurer, a garlic crusher, and "stainless steel soap" that youre supposed to use to get the garlic smell off your hands.

Favorite gift: jumbo peppermint shea butter lip balm.

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Tuesday, 28 December 2010 21:27 (thirteen years ago) link

Wow, that's crazy.
Does that steel soap thing work?

Not the real Village People, Tuesday, 28 December 2010 21:30 (thirteen years ago) link

what infuriates you about the garlic crusher?

sarahel, Tuesday, 28 December 2010 21:34 (thirteen years ago) link

I can crush garlic just fine with the side of a knife and then don't have a garlic press AND a knife to wash.

"Steel soap" works but so does rubbing a stainless steel spoon on yr fingers. Anything stainless will do the trick.

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Tuesday, 28 December 2010 21:56 (thirteen years ago) link

oh yes - the extraneous item that requires cleaning and maintenance

sarahel, Tuesday, 28 December 2010 21:57 (thirteen years ago) link

My mom just gets caught up in whay she perceives as the clever novelty of the stuff without considering the utility or how much drawer space I have.

I'm a little extra sensitive to it bc my parents' house is turning into hoarder-in-training headquarters. My mom gets attached to stuff and says she'll deal with it later but never gets around to it and now three entire rooms are nearly useless because they are filled with crap like garlic crushers and stainless steel soap.

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Tuesday, 28 December 2010 22:04 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah - i feel like my mom doesn't consider that i live in an urban apartment and not a suburban 4 bedroom house. she has room for 3 dozen kitchen towels, 8 different sizes of graters and spatulas, and a five year supply of extra virgin olive oil -- i do not.

sarahel, Tuesday, 28 December 2010 22:06 (thirteen years ago) link

xp Let me know if it's any good.

I threatened to put my parents on Hoarders if they didn't straighten out. Harsh, but I was exhausted by pretending it was normal so I had to say something and I went for tough love humor.

If I had more room, I'd get a chest freezer.

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Tuesday, 28 December 2010 22:09 (thirteen years ago) link

lol!

sarahel, Tuesday, 28 December 2010 22:11 (thirteen years ago) link

I'd like to start doing my hair differently too, but feel very self-conscious about changing up hair and makeup and having work colleagues notice. I don't care if friends notice. Is that just me or does it make anyone else uncomfortable? It's something to do with feeling like you're openly trying to be more attractive.

ljubljana, Tuesday, 28 December 2010 23:22 (thirteen years ago) link

My only concern wrt colleagues would be if I had my hair cut like in the middle of the workday, and ppl would know I was someone who thought it was acceptable to duck out of work to get a hair cut.

BTW I am someone who thinks it is acceptable to duck out of work to get a hair cut.

quincie, Wednesday, 29 December 2010 00:20 (thirteen years ago) link

Outside of our Secret Santa thing, I got two Christmas gifts this year: a steak assortment from one of the gift meat companies from my sister, and a large coffee mug filled with (cheap) chocolates from the mother of one of my patients that broke when I sleepily reached for it on my nightstand. (My husband was ill most of the month, my mother-in-law is too demented to keep track of the days, my family only gives gifts to the children of the family, and my husband's family hates him. The last time I had more than 1-2 gifts to open was when I was 16.)

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 29 December 2010 01:32 (thirteen years ago) link

I know that haircut feeling. I get the same way when I switch glasses or wear contacts (which never happens). It's more about just not wanting anybody at work to pay attention to how I look.

That said, I get my hair cut differently a lot and change the color and nobody notices.

Also if ducking out of work to get a haircut is wrong, I don't wanna be right.

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Wednesday, 29 December 2010 02:41 (thirteen years ago) link

gift meat companies
the what?

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Wednesday, 29 December 2010 03:17 (thirteen years ago) link

i think it's like some kinda meat of the month thing? kinda harry & david-ish?

sarahel, Wednesday, 29 December 2010 03:20 (thirteen years ago) link

my mom gives me tea towels too, every christmas, and dish cloths and things. pretty sure i've never bought a tea towel in my life!

hoarding freaks me out. like, i kinda never want to own a big house so that i can always have a reason to either not acquire ridic unnecessary stuff in the first place or make sure i get rid of / give away things i no longer need. or maybe i've just been living in a small apartment for too long... i don't know, but i do know that that STUFF book really looks like STFU to me. which is how i feel. i mean, there is this shop near my house called "never enough" (in french of course) and it actually makes me mad!

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 29 December 2010 04:05 (thirteen years ago) link

John's dad sends us a package from a "gift meat company" every xmas, with a little (typed on the invoice) note that says "A little taste of Texas, from Dad." Same gift package every year:

http://www.nbsmokehouse.com/item.asp?itm=11

IDK what to to with Canadian bacon.

Stop Non-Erotic Cabaret (Abbbottt), Wednesday, 29 December 2010 04:07 (thirteen years ago) link

Isn't Canadian bacon pretty much just ham? I have the most delicious ham from Mollie Stones but it's one of those things that they only bring out "for the holidays". I want to eat delicious ham all year, thank you.

Not the real Village People, Wednesday, 29 December 2010 04:11 (thirteen years ago) link

Abbbottt, you make eggs Benedict w/Canadian bacon. Also a key ingredient in a Midwest pizza.

tl;dr swinton (suzy), Wednesday, 29 December 2010 04:12 (thirteen years ago) link

Oh man, eggs Benedict – you are a champ, Suzy.

Stop Non-Erotic Cabaret (Abbbottt), Wednesday, 29 December 2010 04:16 (thirteen years ago) link

With all these food recommendations I should probably be the size of a large tract home but...no, somehow. BEWARE though, homemade Hollandaise sauce est tres difficile.

I'm going to Sunday brunch at a fine old Jazz Age establishment this weekend and they do something called Eggs Chesapeake - formule Benedict minus the bacon/ham plus CRAB CAKES.

tl;dr swinton (suzy), Wednesday, 29 December 2010 04:39 (thirteen years ago) link

Me and my first roommate at age 19 would get stoned and have 3 am competitions at who could make the best Hollandaise so I'm set there.

Stop Non-Erotic Cabaret (Abbbottt), Wednesday, 29 December 2010 04:41 (thirteen years ago) link

xp Ha I thought that said Eggs Cheapskate

Not the real Village People, Wednesday, 29 December 2010 04:42 (thirteen years ago) link

Most definitely not Eggs Cheapskate at $14. LOLLLLL

Abbbb, please to pass on yr Hollandaise methodology and I will throw down my Jamaican curry chicken recipe - taught to me by wonderful Jamaican granny Pearlina - for the thread.

tl;dr swinton (suzy), Wednesday, 29 December 2010 04:45 (thirteen years ago) link

tbh I have told this to people before and it grosses them out so warning if you have egg-related fears, um, do not read?

If you leave eggs out long enough for them to be room temp you can just make hollandaise in a blender – 4 egg yolks and the juice of 2 lemons blend, blend, blend, melt 2 stick of butter so they are *really hot* and totally melted and also hot – then drizzle that into the blendy eggs + lemon – heats it up to the right temp to get it thick. If not, you can whisk it for a bit in the hot pan you melted the butter in. But my roomie liked to just whisk it in a double boiler so I always felt it was this John Henry tale of whisks v blender technology. But she stole my blender when she moved out so *shrugs*

This meant that about 9 pm I was putting four eggs on the counter every night.

Stop Non-Erotic Cabaret (Abbbottt), Wednesday, 29 December 2010 04:54 (thirteen years ago) link

I'll be cutting that recipe to be 2 eggs/1 stick/1 lemon

jagger meister (suzy), Wednesday, 29 December 2010 05:00 (thirteen years ago) link

salt + cayenne pepper are good additions, too.

Stop Non-Erotic Cabaret (Abbbottt), Wednesday, 29 December 2010 05:02 (thirteen years ago) link

oh man i would be pretty grateful for kitchen towels! never seem to have enough, they always disappear.

i got nothing from my parents but my MIL gave me
- a gorgeous pashmina in my favourite shade of green
- two pairs of earrings that she made
- a bracelet that she also made
- a beaded wrist cuff
- chamomile tea
- a set of funny little pottery bowls
- a fancy hair dryer (the elchim one that robyn loves!)
- a framed victorian-era squirrel print (i <3 squirrels)
- a necklace from a jeweler i also <3

(the last 3 were picked out by my husband but were paid for by my in-laws)

just1n3, Wednesday, 29 December 2010 05:06 (thirteen years ago) link

oh these were really b'day gifts, not xmas presents

just1n3, Wednesday, 29 December 2010 05:07 (thirteen years ago) link

My only Xmas present (apart from plane ticket) $50 from best friend's mom.

jagger meister (suzy), Wednesday, 29 December 2010 05:07 (thirteen years ago) link

my in-laws have 3 sons so they like to spoil their DILs which is totally awesome imo

just1n3, Wednesday, 29 December 2010 05:12 (thirteen years ago) link

wow that is an awesome bunch of gifts, j! you wld seem to have the elusive dream in laws. wows

(hairdryer will dry yr hair so fast you'll be like whoa)

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 29 December 2010 05:27 (thirteen years ago) link

yah i am already in love with it - it was on my wishlist!

just1n3, Wednesday, 29 December 2010 05:34 (thirteen years ago) link

John's dad sends us a package from a "gift meat company" every xmas, with a little (typed on the invoice) note that says "A little taste of Texas, from Dad." Same gift package every year:

That's it, but it's a different company. (Not Omaha Steaks, but another one that I can't recall.)

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Thursday, 30 December 2010 01:26 (thirteen years ago) link

I just snapped the underwiring on my one remaining comfortable bra :(

trying to figure out measurement instructions now. so many different sets of instructions which completely contradict each other. like, the first one wants me to measure under the bust and not add any numbers, then the next one wants me to measure in the same place and add 4... well, that's already a pretty big difference, how are these both supposed to be "right"?

I've bought from figleaves.com before but their fitting guide is pretty damn unhelpful, it gives some instructions for finding the band size and then goes "ehhh guess randomly at the cup size based on your last bra", like, oh, the one where the label has faded in the wash and which probably didn't fit right anyway given that it just snapped?

</rant>

bauble metropolis (a passing spacecadet), Thursday, 30 December 2010 12:35 (thirteen years ago) link

i got a really good garlic press for xmas. before i just had a rusty target one i got on sale and it sucked. i tried it last night, i just put the garlic in and squeezed the thing and when i opened it i was like whoa there's nothing left in here. so i made some nice garlicky tomato sauce.
no garlic crusher though, lol

positive reflection is the key (harbl), Thursday, 30 December 2010 13:32 (thirteen years ago) link

A have a garlic press and I love it! It does the job of a knife, garlic crusher, and stainless steal soap all at once because it peels, crushes, and keeps your hands out of the garlic.

I am so sympathetic to the bra thing. The difference between band and cup plus four has always given me absurd results that do not bear out in the real world. This is just super annoying because, as I have mentioned before, my tig ole bitties mean I have to buy bras online since only $$$ specialty lingerie shops carry my size, and there is only one speciality lingerie shop in Chicago that I can afford and they pissed me off a couple of years ago and I can hold some serious retail grudges. You actually might be able to guess based on your last bra because if the tag is that faded, the underwire breakage was probably due to age rather than poor fit.

I like herroom.com a lot and recently ordered from biggerbras.com (after confirming that they would not send a package that read "BIGGER BRAS" to my husband at work, which is the only secure place we can receive packages, although they did send one bra in a really big box and I was like... bigger, yes, but not like, the size of microwave). My honest advice to you, if going into a store and trying on a shit ton of bras to find your size (and then ordering the same bra cheaper from somewhere on line) is to pick a place with a good return policy and order two or three bras in varying sizes, then return the ones that don't fit. It's a hassle, but it's pretty surefire.

Herroom.com has a good fit guide, as well, that can help you determine whether your bra fits you correctly or not. They also have really good customer reviews.

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Thursday, 30 December 2010 14:15 (thirteen years ago) link

Two or three of the same style bras in different sizes, I should say, since size will vary between manufacturers and styles. That's another thing I like about herroom.com. They have a nice chart that will indicate what size you wear in an Elomi bra if you normally wear a different size in some other brand. Also, they have "fit tips" that will tell you a particular style in one brand differs from other styles in that brand. Like for my favorite bra (this one - http://www.herroom.com/elomi-1220-Smoothing-Foam-Underwire-Bra.shtml) the fit tip is that the cup size runs bigger than normal, which has proven true in my experience.

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Thursday, 30 December 2010 14:19 (thirteen years ago) link

Two or three years ago I basically dedicated three months of my life to finding my proper bra size and The Perfect Bra that I could buy for the rest of my life* and never have to worry about it again, and this is why I have so many bra shopping-related opinions.

*Or for as long as wearing ones boobs round, high, and tight on ones chest is fashionable, I suppose.

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Thursday, 30 December 2010 14:22 (thirteen years ago) link

after confirming that they would not send a package that read "BIGGER BRAS" to my husband at work, which is the only secure place we can receive packages
oh jenny
this is the sort of thing we shouldn't have to worry about, but totally do. also this made me lol for reals Or for as long as wearing ones boobs round, high, and tight on ones chest is fashionable, I suppose.

in personal adventures in feminism news, i schooled my dad about sexism the other day and it felt really powerful

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Thursday, 30 December 2010 14:28 (thirteen years ago) link

just wanted to put that somewhere, pls continue talking about bras

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Thursday, 30 December 2010 14:32 (thirteen years ago) link

The stuffed log kit from which I made the log I carried around on Halloween came in a lavender bag that said "My Invisible Boyfriend" on it and I thought Jeff was going to divorce me.

I would like to hear about you schooling your dad about sexism!!!

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Thursday, 30 December 2010 14:38 (thirteen years ago) link

no way
that is the funniest thing on earth

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Thursday, 30 December 2010 14:39 (thirteen years ago) link

i would totally hit your shoulder with an exuberant NUH UH if you were here
jesus christ that's funny, knowing your husband

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Thursday, 30 December 2010 14:48 (thirteen years ago) link

ok in several parts,

we went to breakfast and were having this horrible conversation about teen mothers (mostly my mom talking here) and my dad tells me about this time he called out some coworkers for latent racism, and he wanted all of this -- i dunno -- praise for having done this, as one of those boomers who has dedicated his life to public service and promoting sociopolitical engagement, you know the type. my parents are kinda like that, and since you all don't know them, they are good people. they have good intentions and have done good things with their lives.

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Thursday, 30 December 2010 14:52 (thirteen years ago) link

however, as a person of a younger generation who is tired of the boomers expecting to receive a brand new prize every time they do something good, i recounted some events of the last few months for me at work to give him an idea of what total sexist bs i have faced on a daily basis. instances have been...numerous. i gave examples and explained why this is important too, and still a major problem in {b}today's workplace{/b} and why he should care.

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Thursday, 30 December 2010 14:53 (thirteen years ago) link

oops
error

anyway, at some point during my tirade, i grew a little embarrassed about this outburst (i have these kind of a lot around my parents) but i just finished what i was saying and waited for him to respond. it's possible that i should have just let my dad be proud of himself and continue to gnaw on my oatmeal. but that's not how it worked out and there's nothing i can do about it now.

he kinda seemed to get it, but i always wonder how much of what i say just vaporizes because it is coming from me, and i will always be a petulant teenager to him.

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Thursday, 30 December 2010 14:54 (thirteen years ago) link

My parents tend to dismiss any similar experiences that i relate to them as being the result of living in a Large City, where bad things happen to good people. Because there's no sexism at all in Southern Bumblefart, Delaware.

I think it's great that you laid it out for him. I get tired of people (albeit well-meaning, kind people) with privilege wanting cookies every time they don't act like assholes, too.

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Thursday, 30 December 2010 15:01 (thirteen years ago) link

It's cool that you can talk to your dad like that. I bet he doesn't see you as all that petulant anymore.

xp

peacocks, Thursday, 30 December 2010 15:03 (thirteen years ago) link

i should also note that i am an only child, and the only real experience my dad has with children since he was a kid himself.

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Thursday, 30 December 2010 15:11 (thirteen years ago) link

i think he will always see me as someone who knows a shocking amount of things for a 13 year old.

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Thursday, 30 December 2010 15:13 (thirteen years ago) link

i mean, w/e could be worse nbd but
you know

he doesn't get that i could talk about really serious things while still making jokes and being informally myself. he still sees informal behavior as "unserious" and "childish" when really, i am not about to adopt some fucking academic tone over breakfast just because i am talking about serious things.

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Thursday, 30 December 2010 15:17 (thirteen years ago) link

haha yeah I know what you mean. My dad tends to be over-serious and gets heated easily. I usually keep my mouth shut about things around him but I've adopted his ways to a limited extent with others.

My mom and step dad are better about joking around. Whenever I get caught up in things and get too serious at the dinner table or wherever, my step dad waves his hand says in a haughty tone, "You have become tiresome" and I can laugh and check myself.

peacocks, Thursday, 30 December 2010 15:25 (thirteen years ago) link

aw, see, that's nice

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Thursday, 30 December 2010 15:26 (thirteen years ago) link

Hi Jenny! Thanks for awesome bra shopping advice. I went to the shop and tried on a bunch in the sale and came away with a couple of new ones but I am still not 100% sure I got the best fit, so I'll be doing it all again soon.

Have been u_u lately at hearing a few intelligent and (previously) seemingly nice guys declare that sexism doesn't exist any more and women are just prissy bitches for making a fuss about it. Or the little things like being called at work to fix a problem with two guys from my team, and the men form a little circle to talk about the problem and don't let any women into it - not as a conscious thing, just always standing right where you can't get into the conversation. But, oh well.

bauble metropolis (a passing spacecadet), Thursday, 30 December 2010 16:32 (thirteen years ago) link

spacecadet, i'm another person who's had an Epically Long Bra Quest (took me a few years, tbh), and this fit/measuring guide is really good, though the website is not so pretty: http://breakoutbras.stores.yahoo.net/noname1.html

when you get a truly good fit, you will be amazed. i was, anyway.

JuliaA, Thursday, 30 December 2010 18:32 (thirteen years ago) link

Another tip: DD is the largest standardized size. Anything larger than that is a crapshoot.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Thursday, 30 December 2010 18:50 (thirteen years ago) link

And on the teen moms note: Anyone else notice that 18-19 year old women are starting to be included in the "too young to have babies or sex" age list?

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Thursday, 30 December 2010 18:52 (thirteen years ago) link

dryer sheets and other products for the home lol

― harbl, Saturday, June 20, 2009 9:42 PM (1 year ago)

i still love this post just so much

ilx get on my lvl (roxymuzak), Thursday, 30 December 2010 20:04 (thirteen years ago) link

it makes me lol every time i run across it

ilx get on my lvl (roxymuzak), Thursday, 30 December 2010 20:04 (thirteen years ago) link

"the home lol" -- is it warm like a hearth?

sarahel, Thursday, 30 December 2010 20:16 (thirteen years ago) link

i went to ikea and got some home products, like candles and clips to put on bags that are open. also i got some pillows. i feel like i am finally becoming a lady

positive reflection is the key (harbl), Thursday, 30 December 2010 21:14 (thirteen years ago) link

bc i spilled some coffee on my carpet and used baking soda to clean it up but now it smells kinda vinegary in here, which doesn't make sense but it stinks

positive reflection is the key (harbl), Thursday, 30 December 2010 21:15 (thirteen years ago) link

Coffee is an acid and baking soda is a base, so you may be smelling the product of a chemical reaction. Did you see any bubbling or feel any heat after you applied the baking soda?

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 31 December 2010 15:50 (thirteen years ago) link

if u dont want to click, that is an xmas vid of james franco's grandma telling people that if they dont see 127 they are pussies

nakh get on my lvl (roxymuzak), Monday, 3 January 2011 03:40 (thirteen years ago) link

two months pass...

a girl in my totally snoozeworthy econ class that i have never spoken to (no one in the class speaks tbh) but have exchanged loling looks w/ when the teacher says something ridiculous - she just started her period i guess while we were on a 10 min break and came into the classroom and asked me if i had a tampon - i was the first person she asked and that made me feel really good=

i really need some girl friends yall, lol

☠ (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 9 March 2011 00:57 (thirteen years ago) link

awwww

ENBB, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 01:17 (thirteen years ago) link

Speaking of which, do people really ask you to pay them when you ask them for a tampon or a pad, or is that just a joke? It seems like such an absurd thing to do.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 02:24 (thirteen years ago) link

My last girl BFF was when I was 9, and the last girl friend I had was 15 years ago when I was working at Wal-Mart.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 02:25 (thirteen years ago) link

And yes, it does get lonely sometimes.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 02:26 (thirteen years ago) link

Hahah Roxy I can totally understand why you wd be all awww <3 at that!

o people really ask you to pay them when you ask them for a tampon or a pad, or is that just a joke?

Wow cant say Ive ever had this happen!

gnarly gnarlingtons in my life (Trayce), Wednesday, 9 March 2011 02:29 (thirteen years ago) link

Some people probably seriously do, but those people are assholes. IMO.

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Wednesday, 9 March 2011 02:35 (thirteen years ago) link

Thats like asking someone to pay for a cigarette. Karma, man.

gnarly gnarlingtons in my life (Trayce), Wednesday, 9 March 2011 02:44 (thirteen years ago) link

Who the fuck asks for money for menstrual products besides the manufacturers of these
http://image.ec21.com/image/faradayozone/oimg_GC04637338_CA04638157/Sanitary_Napkin_Vending_Machine.jpg

Buff Orpington (Abbbottt), Wednesday, 9 March 2011 02:49 (thirteen years ago) link

they should be distributed gratis to all womankind.

kate78, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 02:50 (thirteen years ago) link

I like roxy's story – I would be touched too! Women are awesome.

Buff Orpington (Abbbottt), Wednesday, 9 March 2011 02:51 (thirteen years ago) link

You mean the ones that steal your quarter 75% of the time, unless you're lucky enough to find one that's been forced/left open?

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 02:52 (thirteen years ago) link

I'm lucky if I can ever find a ladies room that even HAS sanitary prod vendo machines.

gnarly gnarlingtons in my life (Trayce), Wednesday, 9 March 2011 02:53 (thirteen years ago) link

COndoms? Sure. Tampons? Now why the heck would we want those.

gnarly gnarlingtons in my life (Trayce), Wednesday, 9 March 2011 02:53 (thirteen years ago) link

And it would be nice if they would keep them stocked all month long, too. I mean, you'd think they would have realized that not all women have their periods the last week of the month.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 02:56 (thirteen years ago) link

xp "For Prevention of Ruined Panties Only?"

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 02:57 (thirteen years ago) link

Thats like asking someone to pay for a cigarette. Karma, man.

― gnarly gnarlingtons in my life (Trayce), Tuesday, March 8, 2011 6:44 PM (23 minutes ago)

i totally charge people money for cigarettes, not my friends, but other people.

sarahel, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 03:09 (thirteen years ago) link

There used to be single cigarette vending machines, BTW, at least one of which delivered them to you already lit.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 03:11 (thirteen years ago) link

Was the dispenser head-height, too? So you just stand in front of it and it pops a fag into your mouth? And then you turn to an imaginary camera, do a sly wink, and amble away?

emil.y, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 03:13 (thirteen years ago) link

I can't remember what it looked like, but I don't remember it looking like it would be as fun to use as the one you just made up. :-)

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 03:17 (thirteen years ago) link

Ah man, I was all carried away with my cigarette-dispensing fantasy, and then I started thinking about what it would be like if a tampon vendor did the same thing.

Sadface.

emil.y, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 03:19 (thirteen years ago) link

lol I pretended to smoke a tampon for some theater project at age 14.

Buff Orpington (Abbbottt), Wednesday, 9 March 2011 03:21 (thirteen years ago) link

Did you light the string?

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 03:21 (thirteen years ago) link

A woman is waiting for a bus with a tampon in her mouth. Another woman approaches and says, "Excuse me, but did you know you have a tampon in your mouth?" The woman says, "Oh shit! What did I do with my cigarette?"

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Wednesday, 9 March 2011 03:25 (thirteen years ago) link

hahaha

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 03:29 (thirteen years ago) link

omg JENNY

just1n3, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 03:34 (thirteen years ago) link

hahaaa i love jokes like that

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 9 March 2011 04:07 (thirteen years ago) link

One of the best things about my old job was that the tampon dispensers were always stocked and just open so you could take however many you wanted. We used to load up on them big time. I don't think I actually bought any the entire time I worked there.

ENBB, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 14:05 (thirteen years ago) link

young guns vs. the outsiders - in terms of cuetness

sarahel, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 18:59 (thirteen years ago) link

http://img183.imageshack.us/i/811

sarahel, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 19:04 (thirteen years ago) link

The Outsiders, obviously, every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

go peddle your bullshit somewhere else sister (Laurel), Wednesday, 9 March 2011 19:10 (thirteen years ago) link

which was/were your faves, Laurel?

sarahel, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 19:11 (thirteen years ago) link

i was gonna say outsiders but then i saw this and my heart skipped a beat

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7D3VrzRaG8Y/TDPv3QTU9JI/AAAAAAAABPM/jV5eje_9aaE/s1600/YoungGuns08.jpg

Ralpharina (La Lechera), Wednesday, 9 March 2011 19:12 (thirteen years ago) link

http://www.roguejoker.com/movies/TheOutsiders/images/matt-dillon2.jpg

dies

ENBB, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 19:12 (thirteen years ago) link

the only boy that was not cute in the Outsiders was Tom Cruise, which is totally telling

sarahel, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 19:13 (thirteen years ago) link

I've never made it all the way through the movie. I watched up to where there's a stabbing by some fountain and then my presentiments of impending doom were just too much, couldn't take the pressure, had to turn it off and send back the DVD.

go peddle your bullshit somewhere else sister (Laurel), Wednesday, 9 March 2011 19:14 (thirteen years ago) link

ok
you win

outsiders are comically adorable

Ralpharina (La Lechera), Wednesday, 9 March 2011 19:14 (thirteen years ago) link

i think i like donald sutherland more though
love that guy's EYEBROWS
i guess if we're being honest i would vote la bamba

Ralpharina (La Lechera), Wednesday, 9 March 2011 19:15 (thirteen years ago) link

Laurel - so you missed all of Patrick Swayze's shirtless scenes

sarahel, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 19:15 (thirteen years ago) link

i think i like donald sutherland more though
love that guy's EYEBROWS

Yes -- and he has that great smile -- like in Kelly's Heroes and Dirty Dozen. The guys in Dirty Dozen are also overall pretty hot, too.

sarahel, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 19:17 (thirteen years ago) link

Young Guns because I would rather hang out with a bunch of outlaw cowboys robbin' trains and banks than with a bunch of emos with giant, class-issue chips on their shoulders who don't do anything bit complain and fight Soces and rescue orphans from burning buildings.

Regulators, mount up! >>>>>>>>>>>>> Stay gold, Pony Boy.

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Wednesday, 9 March 2011 19:18 (thirteen years ago) link

But! But dark horse candidate The Lost Boys is really my pick for the win.

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Wednesday, 9 March 2011 19:19 (thirteen years ago) link

but the outsiders hang out in bars where Tom Waits is the bouncer, plus Rob Lowe's character is really sweet and cooks and wants to keep the family together.

sarahel, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 19:21 (thirteen years ago) link

I remember the first time I saw that movie. It was on TV one Sunday afternoon and the "Stay gold, Pony Boy" part came on and I just sobbed and sobbed. Turns out, I was days away from getting my first period.

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Wednesday, 9 March 2011 19:25 (thirteen years ago) link

Everyone in Young Guns is too smirky in a smarmy, unpleasant way -- to me! Never saw that movie either, though.

The Outsiders dress awesomely. I mean, pick any; would pash.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e66/LimitedLiabilityGirl/The_Greasers.jpg

go peddle your bullshit somewhere else sister (Laurel), Wednesday, 9 March 2011 19:28 (thirteen years ago) link

Apparently I prefer outright hostility to an excess of self-confidence.

go peddle your bullshit somewhere else sister (Laurel), Wednesday, 9 March 2011 19:30 (thirteen years ago) link

though tbh that picture is: l-r: wtf hampster?, <3, aw, <3, aw, <3, aw

sarahel, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 19:31 (thirteen years ago) link

Dirty Dozen even moreso, obv, because they are class issues all grown up and with senses of humor. And stubble.

go peddle your bullshit somewhere else sister (Laurel), Wednesday, 9 March 2011 19:33 (thirteen years ago) link

except for the Telly Savalas character who is a misogynist sociopath

sarahel, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 19:34 (thirteen years ago) link

C. Thomas Howell gives me the creeps. I have no rational basis for that; he just does.

TBF I haven't seen any of these movies in a million years. I might think differently as an old lady than I did as a girl on the verge of becoming a woman.

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Wednesday, 9 March 2011 19:35 (thirteen years ago) link

something about this guy is so magical! LOVE him
http://content7.flixster.com/photo/99/97/52/9997529_gal.jpg

Ralpharina (La Lechera), Wednesday, 9 March 2011 19:35 (thirteen years ago) link

Cassavetes is a total babe in Dirty Dozen

sarahel, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 19:36 (thirteen years ago) link

I haven't seen any of them at all; I spent the '80s in a box and now that I know all movies about outsiders and malcontents are sure to end badly, it's too late for me to be willing to engage with them anymore.

go peddle your bullshit somewhere else sister (Laurel), Wednesday, 9 March 2011 19:36 (thirteen years ago) link

le sigh
http://content9.flixster.com/photo/99/97/47/9997475_gal.jpg

sarahel, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 19:37 (thirteen years ago) link

^^ like that is the grim smirk of Camus' absurd hero right there

sarahel, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 19:40 (thirteen years ago) link

Honestly if Ray Winstone, Paul Bettany, Vinnie Jones, Terrance Stamp, Malcolm McDowell and all those dudes kept making British gangster crime movies, I would watch every. single. one of them, even if all that changed was the characters' names.

go peddle your bullshit somewhere else sister (Laurel), Wednesday, 9 March 2011 19:45 (thirteen years ago) link

hahaha

me too

ENBB, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 19:46 (thirteen years ago) link

Actually in Love, Honor, and Obey they pretty much all use their own real names, anyway! Plus there's "Avenues and Alleyways" being sung at gangster karaoke events throughout, so great.

go peddle your bullshit somewhere else sister (Laurel), Wednesday, 9 March 2011 20:18 (thirteen years ago) link

this thread got hot fast!

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Thursday, 10 March 2011 01:51 (thirteen years ago) link

i will never choose btwn my beloved young guns and adored outsiders

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Thursday, 10 March 2011 01:51 (thirteen years ago) link

I've never seen either film, do I fail 80s teen girl? ;_;

one time, something happy craz (Trayce), Thursday, 10 March 2011 02:20 (thirteen years ago) link

Outsiders book or movie, <3<3<3 forever
<3 any SE Hinton dudes actually

Buff Orpington (Abbbottt), Thursday, 10 March 2011 02:21 (thirteen years ago) link

i think it is okay trayce because you are australian!

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Thursday, 10 March 2011 02:41 (thirteen years ago) link

i think both these movies are pretty american. or mythical-american. though maybe that means they would have been good exports. i don't know, maybe you were just not obsessed with emilio estevez like my best friend at the time was and so needed to watch these movies over and over.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Thursday, 10 March 2011 02:44 (thirteen years ago) link

But I've seen the Lost Boys!

one time, something happy craz (Trayce), Thursday, 10 March 2011 02:50 (thirteen years ago) link

that's the most important one!

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Thursday, 10 March 2011 04:30 (thirteen years ago) link

kate78 otm re: they should be delivered gratis to the women of the world

There used to be single cigarette vending machines, BTW, at least one of which delivered them to you already lit.

― Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Tuesday, March 8, 2011 10:11 PM (2 days ago) Bookmark

^i want this for my house

also yall are so awesome having a convo about outsiders vs. young guns!! i cant choose. it is really something that the least cute outsider is tom cruise!!!!!!

☠ (roxymuzak), Thursday, 10 March 2011 17:03 (thirteen years ago) link

guys at my new student teaching placement i am teaching the outsiders to seventh graders! we are watching the movie at the end of the unit!

horseshoe, Friday, 11 March 2011 01:10 (thirteen years ago) link

Hands up, who first saw that movie in class? *raises hand*

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 11 March 2011 02:41 (thirteen years ago) link

Not a huge fan - people were more into 'Rumble Fish' down my way - but 'That Was Then, This Is Now' was shot in Minneapolis and some classmate's mom was in charge of extras casting, so a few girls from my class have small speaking parts in the film.

anna sui generis (suzy), Friday, 11 March 2011 07:54 (thirteen years ago) link

Say!

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Thursday, 17 March 2011 23:36 (thirteen years ago) link

this might create unnecessary oppositions: like Clooney w/pug puppy vs. Varg w/cat

sarahel, Thursday, 17 March 2011 23:39 (thirteen years ago) link

There is room in our hearts for both.

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Thursday, 17 March 2011 23:42 (thirteen years ago) link

This is not a zero sum game.

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Thursday, 17 March 2011 23:42 (thirteen years ago) link

and that is why this thread is so great.

sarahel, Thursday, 17 March 2011 23:42 (thirteen years ago) link

~fart~

FUN FUN FUN FUN (gbx), Thursday, 17 March 2011 23:53 (thirteen years ago) link

why all handsome men with pugs?

http://www.celebritydogwatcher.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/spl45802_011.jpg

calling planet dearth (sunny successor), Friday, 18 March 2011 00:14 (thirteen years ago) link

lol AG's pug up there is a fatty pinhead. <3

ENBB, Friday, 18 March 2011 00:17 (thirteen years ago) link

seacrest GD is awes

ENBB, Friday, 18 March 2011 00:17 (thirteen years ago) link

wait a minute thats actually a beagle (xp)

calling planet dearth (sunny successor), Friday, 18 March 2011 00:17 (thirteen years ago) link

what's a beagle?!

ENBB, Friday, 18 March 2011 00:20 (thirteen years ago) link

Seacrest is so small beagle looks like a Great Dane next to him joke ruined by my poor post timing :(

calling planet dearth (sunny successor), Friday, 18 March 2011 02:04 (thirteen years ago) link

<3 hugh laurie
lol @ fatty pinhead

☠ (roxymuzak), Saturday, 19 March 2011 03:22 (thirteen years ago) link

My eldest cat is a fatty pinhead. When she runs for the food bowl she looks like a bullet from Super Mario Galaxy.

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Saturday, 19 March 2011 13:11 (thirteen years ago) link

yikes somehow this pic makes donald sutherland look like jame gumb
dnw!

http://nerdboyfriend.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Sutherland_blog.jpg

Ralpharina (La Lechera), Thursday, 24 March 2011 20:49 (thirteen years ago) link

i watched Young Guns the other night!

sarahel, Thursday, 24 March 2011 20:51 (thirteen years ago) link

yikes somehow this pic makes donald sutherland look like jame gumb
dnw!

Would you fuck him? He'd fuck him.

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Thursday, 24 March 2011 21:33 (thirteen years ago) link

http://hem.passagen.se/bryony/damon.jpg

☠ (roxymuzak), Thursday, 31 March 2011 06:50 (thirteen years ago) link

^whatever this time period is, damon albarn was the best looking guy alive for those few years

☠ (roxymuzak), Thursday, 31 March 2011 17:29 (thirteen years ago) link

in total agreement on this one

i love him

esp from that era

ENBB, Thursday, 31 March 2011 17:54 (thirteen years ago) link

And I am here to tell you that although the man's ego would be inflated beyond its already wide dimensions to see this, y'all are NOT WRONG. I mark '92 - '96 as the Hottness Years. My old editor has a certain SHOWER PHOTO by a certain art photographer colleague featuring ALBARNCOCK at half-mast which would melt your heads.

In other tangentially related news, I interviewed a certain supermodel today and she confessed that she'd named her kids' pet rabbit after Justine Frischmann. Can't say *myself* who the model is for a month, but she was basically a fashion avatar for the Frischmann at the time...

nights of d. cameron (suzy), Thursday, 31 March 2011 19:04 (thirteen years ago) link

suzy i have seen you mention these shower pics before, in fact i was dreaming about them while i was googling for those^^

i have never heard about the half mast part though!

☠ (roxymuzak), Thursday, 31 March 2011 20:55 (thirteen years ago) link

also suzy otm, albarn is the kind of hot guy that you could NEVER let on you thought was hot, for ego reasons. if we were friends i would secretly lust after him but constantly take him down a notch w/r/t looks

☠ (roxymuzak), Thursday, 31 March 2011 20:57 (thirteen years ago) link

i was totally on team Brett Anderson ... sorry.

sarahel, Thursday, 31 March 2011 21:11 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah, me too.

Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel), Thursday, 31 March 2011 21:14 (thirteen years ago) link

I liked more androgynous boys in college.

Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel), Thursday, 31 March 2011 21:20 (thirteen years ago) link

Except for that one hippie.

Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel), Thursday, 31 March 2011 21:20 (thirteen years ago) link

Damon, you fancied despite yourself. Brett, completely different story! Fanciable until unclean man-slut rep surfaced but otherwise the attitude to being attractive not too different from Damon.

nights of d. cameron (suzy), Thursday, 31 March 2011 21:30 (thirteen years ago) link

i hated brett anderson's face, but i love suede

☠ (roxymuzak), Thursday, 31 March 2011 22:08 (thirteen years ago) link

Me too. Suede is great but I never liked ba that way.

ENBB, Thursday, 31 March 2011 23:19 (thirteen years ago) link

See I was always the odd one out. I was always a bit of a Terry Bickers stan myself.

Borads of Candida (Trayce), Friday, 1 April 2011 03:32 (thirteen years ago) link

(House of Love's guitarist)

Borads of Candida (Trayce), Friday, 1 April 2011 03:32 (thirteen years ago) link

two months pass...

oh man i was coming here to post this thinking it would be a total non sequitur, but now i see its basically just continuing the conversation we were already having

when i was a kid i had crushed on blur, but i wasn't attracted to the oasis dudes at all (maybe because they came off as dumb/jerks and that was a big turnoff). i never understood liam as a sex symbol. now as an adult, watching this video is like...damn, i *get* it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaeLKhRnkhQ

tacoby bellsbury (roxymuzak), Thursday, 2 June 2011 02:25 (twelve years ago) link

also lol @ that song in general

its so inane but has a sexy riff

tacoby bellsbury (roxymuzak), Thursday, 2 June 2011 02:26 (twelve years ago) link

Man, I love big rock songs so much.

Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel), Thursday, 2 June 2011 02:43 (twelve years ago) link

<3

tacoby bellsbury (roxymuzak), Thursday, 2 June 2011 02:44 (twelve years ago) link

Basically explains my susceptibility to Britpop in one go.

Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel), Thursday, 2 June 2011 02:47 (twelve years ago) link

See, I follow Justine's assertion that Liam is *photogenic* as all fuck, but that does not necessarily translate into actually being attractive or even good-looking.

I *never* saw the appeal of Albran. Still, to this day, I just don't get it. He's just such a cartoon of a teengirl pinup that he somehow manages to not actually be attractive at all. (This has nothing to do with being on Team James for the entire Britpop years, honest.)

Brett Anderson, however, good lord, Suzy has witnessed first hand the effects that man has on me. (He ate up the attention with a spoon, yes, but in a way that seemed oddly charming rather than as flat out egotistical. Like, if Albran found out someon fancied him, he would lord it over them like an ass, when Anderson found out you fancied him, he would be extra charming and suave just to make you squee a bit harder inside.)

Karen D. Tregaskin, Thursday, 2 June 2011 09:45 (twelve years ago) link

hello you, i was wondering where you were<3

estela, Thursday, 2 June 2011 09:48 (twelve years ago) link

Aw <3 U too estela.

(Mainly hanging out on ladyartist threads on ILM.)

Karen D. Tregaskin, Thursday, 2 June 2011 09:56 (twelve years ago) link

(And Patrick Wolf threads. Not that he is a ladyartist, but he probably fits in the remit of this thread, as in "I cannot figure out if he is attractive or not, and this deeply confuses me.")

Karen D. Tregaskin, Thursday, 2 June 2011 09:57 (twelve years ago) link

Brett flirts like crazy, this is true - I think it greases the wheels of a certain kind of industry (and he did shag my former editor once so is not above career sex). BTW, Kate, Patrick Wolf is even taller than Brett Anderson! My friend G is in some of PW's videos - she is 6'4" - and I think he is the same size as her (I also sat next to him at an ESM dinner a couple of years ago, where I found out he recruited pen-pals from the classifieds of Select when he was a young teenager). Kate, I'll send you the (admittedly blurry) photo I took of PW at the dinner because he was dressed as the world's biggest sailor boy.

I loathe Oasis, but Liam was fantastically good-looking in 1994, when we stood next to each other at the final Richey Manic MSPs gig and I had to just deal with him actually being HOT. He was clearly tripping, because he started stroking my fake fur coat (he was wearing a black one, mine was white) and trying to have a staring competition. It was a bit like experiencing Peter O'Toole's wild-eyed NO PRISONERS thing from Lawrence of Arabia for real and thus I was left a bit conflicted and drooly.

As to Damon - guilty as Kate has charged. He's more of a pigtail-puller than Brett.

chavatar (suzy), Thursday, 2 June 2011 10:27 (twelve years ago) link

Is he taller than Simon Bookish, is what I want to know. Have never seen those two in a room together, despite Kristian's habit of surrounding himself with incredibly beautiful but unbelievably tall young men, each taller and prettier and more avante guarde than the last. (well, excepting Hilton Betelgeuse of course)

Have much trouble fancying him, mostly due to incredibly unsavoury tales told to me by a lady writer and editor of both our acquaintances... But. I certainly appreciate his styling, his outfits, his hairdoes, his endless presentation of *himself*, his body, etc. to the Gaze. The man seems a walking essay for Filament Magazine in many many ways, which I find appealing. And yet, I do not like his nose, I find something ... sulky? sullen? schoolboyish in a bad way? about his face which stops me from actually finding him *attractive* though I can certainly admit that he is handsome (or pretty, or photogenic, or whatever)

Thing is, I like him as *pop star* and certainly appreciate his musical output, but I like him as an untouchable archetypical figure, not someone who is too intimately connected to a world I used to inhabit. That makes me uncomfortable, but I suppose it's unavoidable in London. It's complicated.

Karen D. Tregaskin, Thursday, 2 June 2011 10:45 (twelve years ago) link

to story about the fur coat is killing me

tacoby bellsbury (roxymuzak), Friday, 3 June 2011 07:36 (twelve years ago) link

Have you guys read www.xojane.com yet? It's Jane Pratt's new website. I'm sort of undecided but will probably check it out once in a while. As annoying as she can be, I can't help but sort of love her.

\(^o\) (/o^)/ (ENBB), Saturday, 4 June 2011 13:26 (twelve years ago) link

yeah im with you, ill probably dislike it but im sure ill read it anyway. lol

tacoby bellsbury (roxymuzak), Saturday, 4 June 2011 16:29 (twelve years ago) link

two months pass...

Incoming message from Janet Privacy Control:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uh_gaaUiNs8

it was pleasant and delightful, just like (La Lechera), Thursday, 4 August 2011 14:11 (twelve years ago) link

three weeks pass...

do we need to talk? i feel like there's something going on.
i won't be so bold to say that i know it's going on; i just feel something strange in the air.
around here. lately.

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Monday, 29 August 2011 13:17 (twelve years ago) link

The Kate thing?

pullapartsquirrel (Jenny), Monday, 29 August 2011 13:43 (twelve years ago) link

Well, there have been other things. Abbott's departure. Clearly people miss her.

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Monday, 29 August 2011 13:49 (twelve years ago) link

Also the Kate thing, which seemed to be really like majorly OTT in a way I'm not sure I understand.

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Monday, 29 August 2011 13:50 (twelve years ago) link

It's not really understandable without knowing Kate, I suspect. Def came out of nowhere w/r/t the whole ilx wimmens attacks.

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Monday, 29 August 2011 14:16 (twelve years ago) link

I believe Abbots left for oth reasons, not sure but it coincided with some trigger stuff coming up on-board, I think.

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Monday, 29 August 2011 14:17 (twelve years ago) link

Usually when I ask this question, I almost immediately regret bringing it up, and I guess this isn't any different.

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Monday, 29 August 2011 14:40 (twelve years ago) link

Note: I realize that people have better things to do with their lives than post here. I do too. I guess the smell in the air just seemed worth noting, that's all.

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Monday, 29 August 2011 14:41 (twelve years ago) link

I feel like I've talked right across your observation, LL. I'm sorry. You are usually right and have a knack for keeping positivity and the right goals in mind, so I'm interested in yr comments about the atmosphere.

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Monday, 29 August 2011 14:46 (twelve years ago) link

I'm just saying that when open minded reasonably thick skinned people (in addition to people who have shown themselves prone to throwing loud public fits) find an atmosphere even somewhat or partially hostile, maybe it's worth trying to figure out why.
It doesn't have to be done here though.

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Monday, 29 August 2011 14:50 (twelve years ago) link

whatever nevermind

i will say that i am listening to inxs and it is like drinking a glass of pure distilled middle school juice.

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Monday, 29 August 2011 14:52 (twelve years ago) link

~she posts in mysterious ways~

I'm still a happy camper, but I've been distracted with weddingness. It's all done now! My free time is free again! I will spend some of it thinking of something interesting to post :P

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Monday, 29 August 2011 14:56 (twelve years ago) link

the animal we ate
the edge serrate
human freight
gentle trait
a better rate

god this song is TERRIBLE! it sounds like enigma with a rhyming dictionary

congrats on your wedding ffm btw. the pics were fab and you looked so genuinely happy.

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Monday, 29 August 2011 14:59 (twelve years ago) link

No! Don't never mind! I want to hear more of your observations, Amanda. If you want to email me that is okay but damn, I am always up for a little reflection/deconstruction of the dynamic of the public spaces I inhabit.

Can I just say that I love and will always love Shabooh Shabah and The Swing? Whatever my feelings on subsequent INXS albums those two remain all time favorites.

pullapartsquirrel (Jenny), Monday, 29 August 2011 15:37 (twelve years ago) link

I do have a nudge of a feeling that ilx is at some kind of low w/r/t being populated by people who don't know each other irl. Maybe I just feel that way b/c a lot of the NYC contingent has dropped off, and that is actually how everyone else has felt all along. But I think there's more disregard for the Other across certain lines lately, one of which is gender, because fewer of us are personal friends and we're just typing into the interspace. Maybe.

Maybe people are also self-balkanizing a little by staying just in threads in which they know they're going to have something to say?

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Monday, 29 August 2011 15:38 (twelve years ago) link

Maybe this is bookmarking's fault? I don't know. Meta discussions are usually the sort of thing I back away from. Including right now. You guys are clearing things up for me though, in general, and I don't have the same nagging suspicion that I'm seeing/smelling something that's not there.

Listen Like Thieves was my personal #1 fave INXS album.

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Monday, 29 August 2011 15:41 (twelve years ago) link

Deffo am hearing in my personal life that a lot of women I know have been trying to rescue guys who just aren't that into taking responsibility for their shit and end up freeloading, financially or emotionally, and I wish I knew what was fucked with all of us for putting assholes ahead of our own well-being and/or having no survival instinct and/or never getting mad for the right reasons.

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Monday, 29 August 2011 15:50 (twelve years ago) link

Also, periods.

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Monday, 29 August 2011 15:52 (twelve years ago) link

Just because this is the "no boys" thread.

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Monday, 29 August 2011 15:52 (twelve years ago) link

I have so many things to say about your observation Laurel but am crazy busy at work. Yarg!

Listen Like Thieves is fucking awesome.

pullapartsquirrel (Jenny), Monday, 29 August 2011 16:16 (twelve years ago) link

I had Listen Like Thieves on tape at the same time that I had Achtung Baby, and that's probably all you need to know.

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Monday, 29 August 2011 16:18 (twelve years ago) link

Jenny, I'm super excited to hear your thoughts later! But since I'm just talking to myself here anyway, here's another one:

My dad made a comment while I was in MI that it wouldn't be a bad idea for me to be a little more feminine, which is incredibly silly and wrong-headed and he doesn't even MEAN it, really, because he's proud of me for my independence and practical abilities and in fact HAS NURTURED THEM AND REWARDED ME FOR THEM ALL MY LIFE. But I can't un-hear it.

What he really means, of course, is for me to be less sharp and less opinionated and make dudes more comfortable so they want to be around me more because I make them feel so good about themselves. And of course stopping being those sharp things is exactly what kills me when I start to care about someone, because I pull myself and my needs back in order not to threaten (or even bother) them with my needs. And I'm sure my tendency to hurt myself this way is totally not unconnected to my having watched my parents do it for 40 years!

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Monday, 29 August 2011 16:37 (twelve years ago) link

This upsets me. It's 2011.
WTF.

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Monday, 29 August 2011 16:43 (twelve years ago) link

Yeah but he's a dad, he doesn't think like a 2011 person. And if I told him that it's 2011 and his expectations were out of date, he'd respond, "Making people more comfortable never goes out of date, Laurel."

He of course does not strive to make others comfortable or secure AT ALL, possibly because he doesn't have the first idea how to.

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Monday, 29 August 2011 16:53 (twelve years ago) link

He probably thinks he does, though -- he's just wrong. Anyway this isn't really about him, or possibly even about me. Putting it out there.

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Monday, 29 August 2011 16:54 (twelve years ago) link

That he said it doesn't upset me; that you took it to heart does!

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Monday, 29 August 2011 16:55 (twelve years ago) link

Yeah, I guess huh.

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Monday, 29 August 2011 16:59 (twelve years ago) link

A hand-calligraphied, illuminated, matted, and framed copy of this poem hung on my bedroom wall all my life. I may have...I may have taken it a tiny bit too seriously. At heart it's a horror -- it would require a woman to be everything to everyone and yet no ONE. Not actually a person. I can't...this is really upsetting to me.

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Monday, 29 August 2011 17:03 (twelve years ago) link

Christ almighty.

kinder, Monday, 29 August 2011 17:19 (twelve years ago) link

If you can find a cure for cancer
but don't be a BITCH about it

kinder, Monday, 29 August 2011 17:19 (twelve years ago) link

That poem is one of the worst things I have ever read. Would not be sad if the person who wrote it died horribly.

emil.y, Monday, 29 August 2011 17:21 (twelve years ago) link

illuminated?!
that is a horrifying image and a terrible poem

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Monday, 29 August 2011 17:21 (twelve years ago) link

xp emil.y otm

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Monday, 29 August 2011 17:21 (twelve years ago) link

Illuminated with colored inks and gold leaf around the capital letters. Not as in "lit up". Thank goodness for small favors?

KEEP IT COMING. I can almost feel your combined loathing from here, and it's doing me good.

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Monday, 29 August 2011 17:24 (twelve years ago) link

It's super duper messed up to the max to tell all women to act the same way, esp. if that way is "like good girls."

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Monday, 29 August 2011 17:34 (twelve years ago) link

what the fucking fuck with that poem

quincie, Monday, 29 August 2011 17:36 (twelve years ago) link

oh ugh! I think my mom once gave me a birthday card with that poem on it, or some updated one that was a bit less insulting, but still "for girls," mainly because she really liked the Kipling original. I think we had a brief argument about it, and i think we agreed that a) this "for girls" version was mediocre poetry and b) that i really dislike mass-produced holiday cards in general

sarahel, Monday, 29 August 2011 17:38 (twelve years ago) link

also, hi everyone, i am on my period atm

sarahel, Monday, 29 August 2011 17:39 (twelve years ago) link

thank god my parents (or my mom, at least) were more the "Free to Be You and Me" types

quincie, Monday, 29 August 2011 17:39 (twelve years ago) link

<3 Amelia Lolhart

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Monday, 29 August 2011 17:40 (twelve years ago) link

I should point out, in case you don't know me, that my dad also put paintbrushes and power sanders and a full set of socket wrenches in our hands when we were like 10 years old, and he built me a dune buggy as a first car, and bursted his buttons with pride the first time I biked 100 miles in a day, and stuff. My personal drama is more about being good at all THAT stuff AND everything else, too. In fact, at everything. Just in case the world is having an off day and needs you to save it.

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Monday, 29 August 2011 17:43 (twelve years ago) link

If you don't, it will be your fault.

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Monday, 29 August 2011 17:43 (twelve years ago) link

RIP if only she had tried harder to be perfect.

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Monday, 29 August 2011 17:43 (twelve years ago) link

RIP if only she had tried harder to be perfect.

shit, yeah ... :(

sarahel, Monday, 29 August 2011 17:45 (twelve years ago) link

ofmg that poem

Laurel you must print a copy and that poem and ritually burn it while chanting "I don't owe it to anybody to be nice or attractive" or something similarly appropriate.

pullapartsquirrel (Jenny), Monday, 29 August 2011 17:47 (twelve years ago) link

Styled by 13 year old me, cherished and lovingly photographed by 36 year old me

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6195/6071235301_9004b3463b.jpg

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Monday, 29 August 2011 18:13 (twelve years ago) link

those gold sleeve things! Was there a particular barbie outfit that those came with? Thinking about them decades after the fact, they are really a pretty odd garment.

sarahel, Monday, 29 August 2011 18:15 (twelve years ago) link

I see someone's been at the hemming lace.

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Monday, 29 August 2011 18:19 (twelve years ago) link

yes! they came with a barbie i had that was all dressed in gold and i am pretty sure she is the one who became this barbie. the top is an orange lace ribbon i found in my grandma's sewing box, and her pants were, apparently, stockings in a previous life? i don't really remember life before this barbie very well, tbh.

she didn't wear shoes. i never made a ken for her or even any friends, but she has sat on my dresser in all of my rooms/apartments over the years. i found her in my junk drawer and regret keeping her in there for so long.

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Monday, 29 August 2011 18:21 (twelve years ago) link

Hem lace or tape whatever that shit is called, I just made that up. Love her!

P sure the gold things were meant to be...gloves, but Barbie hands looked stupid in gloves?? Or else they were just opera "mitts", I dunno. I feel like a number of ballet recital costumes from that era may have had something similar in which the point over the hand was held down by a loop of elastic around the middle finger?

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Monday, 29 August 2011 18:22 (twelve years ago) link

also, i just wanna say, that i wish i knew more of you ilx ladies irl

sarahel, Monday, 29 August 2011 20:22 (twelve years ago) link

likewise

i think barbie didn't look good in gloves because she didn't have any FINGERS

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Monday, 29 August 2011 21:56 (twelve years ago) link

Or toes! Or ribs! Or anything so troublesome as genitalia!

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Monday, 29 August 2011 21:57 (twelve years ago) link

I would also love to know more of the ladies irl. For someone addicted to a message board I am preeeety hopeless at interaction on message boards.

Laurel, lest you think you are a doormat, I have not forgotten your 'There is no Laurel buffet' comment on the breakup thread. I did stay friends with my ex, but that comment *really strongly* influenced how I did it.

ljubljana, Monday, 29 August 2011 23:39 (twelve years ago) link

i have a song that is somewhat relevant to the discussion and also makes me lol a little:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vajWi4a6ehk

just1n3, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 00:34 (twelve years ago) link

Deffo am hearing in my personal life that a lot of women I know have been trying to rescue guys who just aren't that into taking responsibility for their shit and end up freeloading, financially or emotionally, and I wish I knew what was fucked with all of us for putting assholes ahead of our own well-being and/or having no survival instinct and/or never getting mad for the right reasons.

It's like, this is the dominant model for relationships in our all pervasive media. Movies, TV shows, commercials for cleaning products - the dynamic is always an emotionally stunted, idiot manchild haplessly flailing around life and relationships while the patient (and disproportionately attractive) woman in his life serves as an emotional, financial, and domestic prop. Legit question - what was the last movie or TV show that depicted a hetero couple who are at least attempting some kind of equality in their relationship and where the woman was not merely there for succor or service, or even worse, was entirely defined by her relationships with the men around her? I can't think of anything (but it is early and before coffee).

So but it's unfair to say that we're so dumb as to ape whatever we see in the media, but then where else do we look for healthy male/female hetero relationship models? Our parents? Probably not - they are still operating largely under the gross gender dynamics of the 60s and 70s, or they are divorced. It feels like as women in relationships with men, we've got to make our own way if we want to avoid these pitfalls and god damn is that hard. Staying out of that pattern takes work! Like, constant work! And it's tiring!

And for someone not in a committed relationship with a loving partner who is on board with striving towards actual equality, it's nothing to internalize nonstop messages about how failure to provide emotional support and domestic service and basically be the woman in that horrible, horrible poem makes us unlovable harpies who will die alone and afraid and nobody wants that.

pullapartsquirrel (Jenny), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 12:27 (twelve years ago) link

In other ladyrant news, I need a god damn suit by Friday morning and Macy's has two (TWO) plus size suits - one is made out of plastic (or the worse all polyester suit fabric ever and I am included the 70s in all its doubleknit glory) and one is a 78-year-old mother of the remarrying bride/lady's church auxilliary suit. Nordstrom has TWO plus size suits - one that is the same plastic one at Macy's except gray and one that is some hideous fucking are-you-kidding-me-who-really-wears-this-shit soft suiting nonsense with an abstract brush stroke pattern jacket. WHAT THE FUCK. I guess major retailers don't believe fat women get job interviews? We're too busy sitting home eating ho hos and watching Biggest Loser reruns and crying into our fat?

I am double frustrated because I tried to address my suitlessness about a year ago when I had no pressing need by buying a nice all-season weight wool blazer from Pendleton (which matches an all-season weight wool pencil skirt (well, two in black, one in gray (when you find a piece of professional clothing that fits, you've got to stock up on that shit))) but it was boxy and ill fitting and I took it to a tailor who managed to make it fit even worse and then I got disheartened and gave up.

pullapartsquirrel (Jenny), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 12:37 (twelve years ago) link

kinda makes you wonder why we have to wear suits.

those shopping experiences sound traumatizing and like they are making the unnatural and generally unpleasant process of interviewing for a job like quadruple worse

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 13:23 (twelve years ago) link

I don't know where people shop in Chicago, but that is horrendous and shameful. Wish I had better advice to offer for other shopping options! Let me think it over a second.

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 13:37 (twelve years ago) link

What if you stayed with the Pendleton skirt and just looked for a black or windowpane (or other subtly patterned) jacket? Lots of places sell jackets as separates that might not sell suits.

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 13:39 (twelve years ago) link

Against my better judgment, bc I did not want to give them any of my dollars, I bought a pretty blue blouse at Nordstrom. Worse case scenario, I'll wear the skirt, blouse, pumps and hope the fact that it's going to be in the 90s makes this seem acceptable. Also going to Stupid Terrible Lane Bryant after work bc sometimes they have passable career wear.

pullapartsquirrel (Jenny), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 13:49 (twelve years ago) link

You have a grey skirt and a black skirt, right? So if you find a black jacket, wear the grey skirt. If you find a checked or patterned jacket, wear the black skirt. All you need is a blouse for under that and you're good, I think? But I don't know about law jobs, and I don't know about law jobs in Chicago.

Heat is probably an excellent excuse for no jacket all--at the very least it's an excuse for not wearing stockings of any kind, which is A++ with me.

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 13:52 (twelve years ago) link

Fat people shop at Macy's, Nordstrom, Lane Bryant and there is also an Avenue and a… shit I can't remember the name of it but it's an Avenue-level chain and Jill Scott shilled a weird bra for them a few years ago. No suits at those last two places. There's a great plus size boutique in Bucktown but no suits there either.

Everything else is on line.

Department stores are really the only ticket which is what makes their stock decisions so frustrating.

xp job is a laughable long shot so I'm not that stressed about it, tbh.

pullapartsquirrel (Jenny), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 13:56 (twelve years ago) link

I know it's boring but I'll say it again: I only ever find "career" clothes at stupid boring department stores in Muskegon, MI, because honestly I don't want a black skirt to be fashion-forward, I want it to be a black skirt. Do you have time to drive out to the suburbs somewhere? I'll bet they carry larger sizes and a better range of plus-sized clothes at suburban stores than at city ones.

Totally sucks about the Pendleton jkt because that's kind of as nice as it gets, ime. I have a couple of vintage P-ton skirts that I will never give even up if I never fit into them again. Maybe it would be worthwhile to take it to a...dressmaker? I don't know, but if it could be rescued, there's your win for next time.

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 14:01 (twelve years ago) link

Nordstrom has TWO plus size suits - one that is the same plastic one at Macy's except gray and one that is some hideous fucking are-you-kidding-me-who-really-wears-this-shit soft suiting nonsense with an abstract brush stroke pattern jacket.

argh are you fucking kidding me with this shit, Nordstrom? somehow it's what i expect from macy's but i want Nordstrom to be reasonable. Jenny, now is as good a time as any to tell you that my latest unemployment fantasy is to open up a boutique that sells straight and plus-size clothing. in this fantasy, i hire you as a consultant and you quit your job that you hate.

horseshoe, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 14:02 (twelve years ago) link

i assume you've already exhausted your options but does Talbot's carry suits?

horseshoe, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 14:03 (twelve years ago) link

also your entire rant about movies is otm

horseshoe, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 14:03 (twelve years ago) link

Yeah I'm still processing the woman-as-security-blanket-and-Zimmer-frame rant but thanks for it.

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 14:06 (twelve years ago) link

Talbots does but the Mag Mile Talbots closed, which is tragic bc I love Talbots for stuffy work clothes. Going to the 'burbs is a good idea but I don't think it's going to happen. Maybe for next time.

I feel like I'm shooting down all the ideas and I don't mean to do that! They are good ideas and I am grateful!

Laurel, I was going to buy a black sheath dress (knit so not ideal but it could pass) with an exposed zipper but it was $480.

horseshoe, I accept you business proposal.

pullapartsquirrel (Jenny), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 14:12 (twelve years ago) link

By the way, to anyone else who's reading: La Lechera and I have been talking about words like "yammer" and "blither" and how de-valuing they are to women's dialogue and I'm feeling an especial motivation to support whatever style of dialogue women engage in, so anyone who was on the fence about posting itt, bring it.

xp FOUR HUNDRED AND...fucking A. You need a Filene's Basement.

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 14:15 (twelve years ago) link

We have a Filene's but it totally sucks imo. I went there once and it was just full of, like, trash. Shitty products. I like Marshall's, but I also hate hate hate buying sensible clothes.

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 14:20 (twelve years ago) link

I second Laurel's post encouragement. Yammer on, sisters. Yammer on.

Filene's on State St. closed. I have limited patience for Marshalls, TJMax, etc. Finding clothes that I like and that fit is hard enough without having to dig through disorganized piles of crap first.

pullapartsquirrel (Jenny), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 14:25 (twelve years ago) link

Yeah I told Laurel about this guy I was friends with who interrupted me to tell me that I was "yammering" and I was just like wait, I was just "talking" (we were on the phone) and then I thought "Yknow, this guy is a total dick" and now, a million years later, I think he may have been negging. Mission unaccomplished, pal. We are not friends anymore nor did we remain friends long after this incident.

I referred to this claim that I was yammering (rather than carrying on enthusiastically as I tend to do) as the yammer hammer. Don't get whacked by it, folks.

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 14:30 (twelve years ago) link

I mean, it would be ok if it had been done in good fun, and really -- I can be kind of annoying, I know that -- I can take a joke. But he interrupted me and said "If you would stop ~yammering~ for one second" and I just thought to myself that this is not how I expect a friend to treat me.

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 14:34 (twelve years ago) link

Chicago sounds hard. Filene's here isn't my FAVORITE store, but I got my birthday dress there and another fancy dress that I haven't even worn yet because it's so fancy, and they were both AWESOME deals. All my stand-by stores are getting a terrible rap there!

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 14:34 (twelve years ago) link

"If you would stop ~yammering~ for one second"

maybe he should stop talking like he's from the 1950s for one second !!!!!!!!!

horseshoe, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 14:37 (twelve years ago) link

Possibly relevant, with the paragraph starting with "Actually at this point" a nice antidote to The Fucking Poem.

The stop yammering guy is a horrible person and I wish him ill.

pullapartsquirrel (Jenny), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 15:02 (twelve years ago) link

I feel like a link is missing from that poast and that makes me impatient because I know it's going go to be something good and I want to read it.

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 15:06 (twelve years ago) link

Ha yes - http://tigerbeatdown.com/2011/08/29/chronicles-of-mansplaining-professor-feminism-and-the-deleted-comments-of-doom/

It's loooong and in the context of the response to a recent (hilarious and OTM (note: I liked the two books I read just fine)) post she made about Game of Thrones, et al but it's good.

pullapartsquirrel (Jenny), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 15:19 (twelve years ago) link

what was the last movie or TV show that depicted a hetero couple who are at least attempting some kind of equality in their relationship and where the woman was not merely there for succor or service, or even worse, was entirely defined by her relationships with the men around her?

friday night lights, maybe, which got a lot of attn for being a tv show that portrayed a marriage realistically. (it's an entertaining show, despite football!) she calls him on his shit, refuses to move with him when he accepts a job in another town without consulting her, stands up to him regularly. and he generally does get a clue about her pov eventually.

the fact that the show got so much attn for portraying a marriage where the wife struggles to be heard and respected equally--well, that supports jenny's rant. because that's pretty much unheard of.

thx for rant. and for that horrifying, thought-provoking poem, laurel.

and thx for post encouragement. xp yay things to read.

JuliaA, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 15:25 (twelve years ago) link

<3 u, boo!

pullapartsquirrel (Jenny), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 15:29 (twelve years ago) link

lollllllllllll @ "Bitch, I have a Rolls Royce".

Someone in a car told me I have a nice ass, yesterday, while I was biking home in the dark.

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 15:39 (twelve years ago) link

That was nice of him, and nice for me, because I was just wondering about my ass.

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 15:39 (twelve years ago) link

sometimes when you're riding your bike around all you can think is, god i just won't be able to go on if some moron doesn't want to fuck me. so that was nice of him.

horseshoe, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 15:43 (twelve years ago) link

It's good to know that even wearing baggy jeans and sneakers and a big messenger bag over my back that makes me look like something that never leaves the confines of Notre Dame Cathedral doesn't take away from my sheer sexiness to men in cars.

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 15:45 (twelve years ago) link

I'm on the third read-through of the Sady Doyle piece because different parts of it are hitting all different typewriter keys in my brain, and Rube Goldberg-type things are happening up there.

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 15:58 (twelve years ago) link

That feeling is scary but I love it.

pullapartsquirrel (Jenny), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 16:00 (twelve years ago) link

Well the thing is I am already kinda out there about my "pet" (another dismissive word but not specifically gendered...maybe) issues, because obv people who are gonna transgress them find any objection "strident", amirite? But there are deffo groups of people I do stuff with that I would have to become like a facing-in-all-directions-at-once tornado of rebuttals if I didn't just give them death glares and move away toward someone else.

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 16:09 (twelve years ago) link

I'm thinking about needing to re-set my settings. My baselines for objecting to criticisms of myself, or patronizing talk from men OR women, or whatever, are set way way too high, in the sense that red lights on the control panel do NOT go off when someone tells me how I should change, or talks to me like I'm 5, or devalues my ideas or feelings or my body or my self. I would like to know how that happened and then change THAT about myself, for sure.

arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 16:20 (twelve years ago) link

jenny, this is too late for your friday interview, but have you looked into tailor-made suits? i have no idea on the cost of something like that (i have never worn a suit, having come even remotely close to working in a corporate environment).

just1n3, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 16:51 (twelve years ago) link

There's a bit in Alan Partridge where he tries to get invited to an influential businesswoman's "Ladies' evening" or something and when he's not allowed he's all "ohhh what, loads of women talking blabbering crap?!" So if I hear anyone talk about blathering women then they instantly turn into Alan Partridge to me.

kinder, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 17:22 (twelve years ago) link

yammer
blather
blither
dither
blabber

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 17:25 (twelve years ago) link

fendi
prada

kinder, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 17:31 (twelve years ago) link

Sheep blether, it's a livestock word. Well actually apparently it's a Scots dialect word from Old Norse or something, that means to "talk nonsense" and applies to anyone. So it's not the word's fault how it gets used. But after this, I'm going to have a more noticing ear for anti-woman applications.

brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 17:32 (twelve years ago) link

hm, dither is more like not being able to decide what to do?

kinder, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 17:33 (twelve years ago) link

the tiger beatdown post Jenny linked reminds me of a favorite blogpost of mine.

Smirks, smarms, provokes, and blathers until you go crazy, then calls you crazy.

^^^phrase that has haunted me since i read it

horseshoe, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 18:29 (twelve years ago) link

I liked the tiger beatdown post a lot, but not the girlbomb one so much. Where Sady Doyle's article takes a recent experience and explores the way in which it relates to and reinforces social patterns, the girlbomb one seems to be much more of an antagonistic generalisation. I think it's just written more glibly and dismissively, and a tiny "but I'm not really saying they're all like this" doesn't actually provide a workaround for generalisations (and to be honest I read it as a petulant tit-for-tat sarcasm anyway).

emil.y, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 18:42 (twelve years ago) link

yeah she definitely got a lot of criticism along those lines for it. it is definitely more glib and less careful than the tiger beatdown post. i think i have just known too many dudes of the type erlbaum describes.

horseshoe, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 18:44 (twelve years ago) link

Poking around through the links posted today led me to YA Lit Bitch and this interview with Laurie Halse Anderson and it's really good.

brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 18:45 (twelve years ago) link

I didn't know any of those guys because TA DAAH I don't think we had any kind of feminist organization at my college. Or...maybe we did and no one went? I didn't go, but now that I think of it, I think it might have been run by dudes.

brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 18:46 (twelve years ago) link

Oh, they definitely exist, and I did boggle at the idea of a college feminist group being run solely by dudes (as mentioned in the comments) - if that isn't co-opting your space I don't know what is. But yeah, I just didn't connect with the writing and felt like the issue could have been dealt with better.

emil.y, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 18:56 (twelve years ago) link

fendi
prada

irl lol

pullapartsquirrel (Jenny), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 19:01 (twelve years ago) link

xp No, I agree, it felt flippant and unserious, but I know that stuff has more resonance for people with those experiences. The Sady piece is obv on another level but I think the lighter/smaller one was prob only intended to be a hasty jokey stab at its topic.

brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 19:03 (twelve years ago) link

xp to Jenny - if you've got a J. Jill around, I like their Simple 120 line tailored wool jacket. Not boxy in plus sizes. They have a skirt in that line, but it's really long (I'm a trouser person myself).

Jaq, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 19:04 (twelve years ago) link

my prob is that the hasty joke stab belittles the everyday experiences without the splash factor of "weirdo poster blabbing about natural breasts"

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 19:17 (twelve years ago) link

Well yes. I was trying to be less condemning because horseshoe liked it. But yes!

brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 19:22 (twelve years ago) link

i didn't mean to condemn :(

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 19:33 (twelve years ago) link

No, I mean! Oh boy. I think it's fine if you do it because you are not condemny. I was just trying to be uncharacteristically sensitive. Needs work.

brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 19:35 (twelve years ago) link

hs knows i love her

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 19:36 (twelve years ago) link

luv u boo

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 19:37 (twelve years ago) link

kind of off topic but this feels like the right place to 'brag' about this:

i am friends with this woman who i admire a great deal bc she is v talented, smart, funny, has had a really tough but also interesting life and a bunch of other stuff. it is kind of a long story how i met her, but she lives in LA so i don't see her all that often. anyways, she has had a terribly rough year and recently one of her dogs died on top of all the other stuff. so i made her a care package that was just some home-made cookies, some mix CDs and a funny book.

she sent me this email thanking me and basically asking me to be her BFF (lol - so adorable) and telling me how she has a hard time making friends with other women but liked me right away.

anyway, it made me feel good bc lately i've been feeling not v charming or witty or smart or friendly or interesting or anything.

just1n3, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 19:51 (twelve years ago) link

aw you just made me re-thank my bff that I never see for sending me a handbag she made for me plus Britishers snack food last year.

kinder, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 20:35 (twelve years ago) link

care packages and home-made gifts are the best - so awesome to come home and find a cute surprise in your letterbox.

just1n3, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 20:41 (twelve years ago) link

It feeds the inner person to be liked for the right reasons.

brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 21:18 (twelve years ago) link

that is lovely, just1n3

nobody needs to hold back in their distaste for that feminist men post on my account! i can see what's offputting about it; sorry if it made anyone's day a little more irritating.

horseshoe, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 21:23 (twelve years ago) link

Someone in a car told me I have a nice ass, yesterday, while I was biking home in the dark.

― arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Tuesday, August 30, 2011 8:39 AM (6 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

That was nice of him, and nice for me, because I was just wondering about my ass.

― arch midwestern housewife named (Laurel), Tuesday, August 30, 2011 8:39 AM (6 hours ago)

this totally made me lol!

sarahel, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 22:25 (twelve years ago) link

this reminded me of when my friend Amber used to walk to her cafe job, and a very nice man hanging out on the corner praised her ass by comparing it to white chocolate. He also was so flattering as to loudly express his desire to partake of it.

sarahel, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 22:28 (twelve years ago) link

Gee, I haven't been catcalled in years. I must be really hideous.

tokyo rosemary, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 22:36 (twelve years ago) link

I can't remember who & where I've told this, but have I mentioned I have someone praying for me to find a man?!?

tokyo rosemary, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 22:37 (twelve years ago) link

oh geez -- have any of your fb friends posted that "boaz" thing? do you know what i'm talking about?

sarahel, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 22:38 (twelve years ago) link

I just laughed and laughed and tried to take it with the well meaning I know this woman has but oh my.

tokyo rosemary, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 22:38 (twelve years ago) link

No!

tokyo rosemary, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 22:39 (twelve years ago) link

The woman who is doing this is convinced her prayers helped another friend find her missing ring even though it took TEN YEARS.

tokyo rosemary, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 22:40 (twelve years ago) link

To all the single ladies, here's a quick piece of Biblical advice:

Ruth patiently waited for her mate Boaz. While waiting on YOUR Boaz, don't settle for ANY of his relatives: Brokeaz, Poaz, Lyinaz, Cheatinaz, Dumbaz, Cheapaz, Lockedupaz Goodfornothinaz, Lazyaz or Marriedaz and especially his third cousin Beatinyoaz. Please, wait on your Boaz & make sure he respects Yoaz!!

sarahel, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 22:45 (twelve years ago) link

Oh dear.

pullapartsquirrel (Jenny), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 22:48 (twelve years ago) link

both friends who posted that are Mormon

sarahel, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 22:49 (twelve years ago) link

but don't know each other, as far as i know

sarahel, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 22:50 (twelve years ago) link

my god

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 23:53 (twelve years ago) link

That's not just philosophically offensive, it's linguistically horrifying and racially insensitive, to say the very least. Stay classy, Mormons.

brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Wednesday, 31 August 2011 00:39 (twelve years ago) link

lolaz

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 31 August 2011 00:48 (twelve years ago) link

I've been reading game of thrones for the past couple of days and have yet to read the original post on tiger beatdown but read the professor feminism post and LOVED IT. but yeah, game of thrones is not a feminist text by any stretch, i know that much and i'm like halfway through the first book - i love how every servant girl has is "young and slender", gah, unnecessary perviness. plus all the refs to rape and a women's place and etc etc. and yet as a book i find it totally entertaining (as well as ridiculous, with repetitive prose and nonsensical metaphors, etc). i will read the TB post soon though and likely agree with it, while still finding GoT entertaining, if only bc it's 'fantasy'. which also brings up the whole geek girl thing, which i was reading about earlier today too. and then, coincidentally, a friend posted this - http://ittybiz.com/death-threats-online/ - on her fb and i'm like o_O and yet not completely surprised - misogyny, alive and well and totally disgusting and sad.

Undoing what we've been taught - to be good, to accommodate, to hold our tongues, to fear - is truly difficult and requires daily practice, i've found, and a supportive community of women and men, which, for many women, can be really hard to find. But i think we know in our bones what our power is, and when we can't express it, that blockage kills our spirits slowly, whether we know it or not. And i'm just like, at this point, fuck that. The unique power of women has been not only overlooked for too long now, but outright quashed, literally put to death. why? because it is some serious stuff. In an ideal world, it works in harmony with men's power, which is also, as we know, some serious stuff (not to mention all other energies/powers between and beyond, but that's another point). In this non-ideal world, it's just seen as a threat, imo. But i think that's changing, slowly slowly and with great effort. And in a way, i'm glad for the internet assholes who out themselves in such public ways as misogynists - at least it's a tangible piece of proof that we can talk about among all the other proof that has been dismissed as mere "feelings", that sickening pit low in the gut that tells us this shit is just plain wrong. It pisses me off to no end, that's for sure, but living my life in a pissed-off fashion doesn't seem to work for me, so that's why i practice undoing the good-girl lessons and just saying what works and what doesn't for me, according to my gut and my heart and my brain. It is work and it is hard! And it's meant i've lost my footing so many times in the past couple of years, but always picked myself up and gotten closer to the good gut feeling because of it. My tolerance for living any other way is extremely low now and my awareness of bs is high, but so is my awareness of all this awesome stuff that women (and some men of course!) are doing to build new (if small) paradigms.

It's kind of funny that I'm reading GoT because there's so much fighting in it, and for me the last thing that's going to solve our problems is fighting, at least not in the warring sense. Maybe in the sense of how people who love each other very much sometimes fight, to get the blarghrrarr energy out of their systems and get back to the core of the matter of being kind to each other. hm.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 31 August 2011 02:15 (twelve years ago) link

But i think we know in our bones what our power is, and when we can't express it, that blockage kills our spirits slowly, whether we know it or not.

Holy... wow. This is amazing and so true.

Silent Hedgehogs (Trayce), Wednesday, 31 August 2011 05:04 (twelve years ago) link

Robyn always dependably amazing on the things unseen.

brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Wednesday, 31 August 2011 14:45 (twelve years ago) link

I solved my suit problem, sort of. After concluding that Lane Bryant is still the Devil's Own Source for Plus Size Clothing, my shopping companion and I decided to hit up Macy's and LO. They had some suits. Unfortunatelyyyyyyyyyy the two suiting lines are not cut well for my figure (which is pretty hour glass) so any jackets that fit in the bust were of David Byrne proportions everywhere else (which is too bad because there was actually a WOOL BLEND SUIT that was on sale 40% off and I was going to buy that fucker and never worry about a suit again, except the fit was off). So but anyway, I ended up buying what is probably a wholly inappropriate black and white kind of zebra print jacket in a very cute, modern cut and heavy knit (so it's got a lot of body and it does not look knit until you get right up to it) fabric and I love it. The End.

PS this is a job interview but like I said, it's a long shot for many reasons so I'm not too worried about sticking to the straight-and-narrow superconservative black suit attorney path. Plus it's internal and they see what I wear to work every day so they aren't going to be like "OMG HOW DARE SHE," but rather more like "Oh, that's kind of conservative."

pullapartsquirrel (Jenny), Wednesday, 31 August 2011 23:13 (twelve years ago) link

ZEBRA-PRINT <3 <3 I'll bet that jacket is just dashing.

While we're here, I found this funny little advice column today. I'm probably the last person on the internet to trip over it, but maybe you'll like this, too: Dear Sugar.

brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Thursday, 1 September 2011 00:19 (twelve years ago) link

No, *I'm* the last person on the internet to trip over it. Very pleased it exists.

ljubljana, Thursday, 1 September 2011 02:16 (twelve years ago) link

Laurel! I may need to do desperate fabric shopping in NYC next weekend! I still have not gotten fabric for the f'n wear-to-my-own-wedding dress!

G Street Fabric here in DC used to be awesome for clothing fabric, but in past years it has converted 80% of its real estate to home decor fabrics (like for curtains and shit) + crafting crap (quilting fabric, felt, etc.).

I have one more fabric store option in the area, which I will check tomorrow. If that is a fail, an NYC fabric store must save me? Where should I go????? I'm not spending very much on wedding crap, so I am willing to splurge on fabric for this dress--I won't say "price is no object," but is not a totally huge object or anything.

quincie, Thursday, 1 September 2011 13:51 (twelve years ago) link

My dad always preached how good girls "listen" (he'd always tell the same stories about how he was first attracted to my mother because she truly LISTENED to him, blah blah) and don't chase boys ("good girls don't chase boys"), and he now has three extremely loudmouthed, opinionated daughters. Good work, pops.

homosexual II, Thursday, 1 September 2011 14:08 (twelve years ago) link

daria, everybody goes to Mood but I'm not so sure about that place. I haven't been seriously fabric shopping in a few years (fell down on my sewing) but you have to go to the garment district 38th/39th/40th Sts between 7th & 8th Aves, iirc) and poke around, and I specifically have had very good luck at Paron Fabrics (and their sale annex!). Man I would LOVE to go with you, but I'll be on Long Island. :(

brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Thursday, 1 September 2011 14:25 (twelve years ago) link

I mean I'm sure Mood is great but it's also kind of expensive and full of really annoying people due to its recent fame on that show.

brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Thursday, 1 September 2011 14:26 (twelve years ago) link

Mood is the one my mom mentioned why because she saw it on Project Runway

quincie, Thursday, 1 September 2011 20:10 (twelve years ago) link

for horseshoe, primarily:

S@rah Ruh1 was bff's w/my first freshman roommate at college. They listened to country music and got nostalgic over horsey girl's books they'd liked as kids. They also made up country-flavored nicknames for their vaginas. S@rah called her vagina, Patsy, iirc.

sarahel, Monday, 12 September 2011 19:27 (twelve years ago) link

!!!

thank you!

horseshoe, Monday, 12 September 2011 19:29 (twelve years ago) link

this was almost 20 years ago, so i may not rc

sarahel, Monday, 12 September 2011 19:30 (twelve years ago) link

Did your bff call her vulva Eddy? Oh, wait, that's not country-flavored

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Thursday, 15 September 2011 20:06 (twelve years ago) link

three weeks pass...

Listen this is not only for girls by any means, but I just wanted to offer it to all the ilXXors because of this thread and things we've talked about. I hope you find it enriching. I did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7X7sZzSXYs

WE DO NOT HAVE "SECRET" "MEETINGS." I DO NOT HAVE A SECOND (Laurel), Tuesday, 11 October 2011 23:15 (twelve years ago) link

^ canadian!
andrea dorfman's film "love that boy" is actually really good if totally bizarre in many ways <3

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 12 October 2011 04:29 (twelve years ago) link

i just, i... http://feministryangosling.tumblr.com/

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Thursday, 13 October 2011 01:25 (twelve years ago) link

i really like it

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Thursday, 13 October 2011 01:27 (twelve years ago) link

lol I saw that yesterday. He doesn't really do it for me. Like, at all. I feel like everyone loves him right now but I don't really get it.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Thursday, 13 October 2011 01:28 (twelve years ago) link

for me it's a combination of him being a good actor and being the weird, hot canadian boy next door

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Thursday, 13 October 2011 01:40 (twelve years ago) link

idgi either. Have only seen him in Drive afaik though.

kinder, Thursday, 13 October 2011 04:36 (twelve years ago) link

he's attractive, but not swoonsome. also not a young gun.

sarahel, Thursday, 13 October 2011 04:38 (twelve years ago) link

I was watching From Hell again the other day and I realized that Johnny Depp really is my platonic ideal of a pretty boy crush. I'm just crossing my fingers that he can manage to age gracefully and avoid plastic surgery so I can carry this crush into Johnny and my shared old age.

pullapartsquirrel (Jenny), Thursday, 13 October 2011 12:28 (twelve years ago) link

This looks recent, no?

http://www.yaare.com/wp-content/themes/gazette/2010/01/Johnny-Depp4.jpg

That works for me. Carry on, Johnny.

pullapartsquirrel (Jenny), Thursday, 13 October 2011 12:30 (twelve years ago) link

I like where this is going, too:

http://images.askmen.com/photos/johnny-depp/85073.jpg

pullapartsquirrel (Jenny), Thursday, 13 October 2011 12:40 (twelve years ago) link

Wait, that's not the one I meant to post, but it will do and also I'm about to be late for work due to posting pictures of Johnny Depp on the internet which is a smidge embarrassing at my age.

pullapartsquirrel (Jenny), Thursday, 13 October 2011 12:41 (twelve years ago) link

haha but he is so very swoonworthy. i usually don't care too much about movie stars, but sometimes they've just got that something, as an artist at the very least, that is attractive beyond their idealized movie stardom. johnny depp is the pinnacle of this imo. also he owns an island.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Thursday, 13 October 2011 12:57 (twelve years ago) link

i think this was posted in the ok-cupid thread (?) but i wanted to post it here for posterity too - it's a good read - http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/11/all-the-single-ladies/8654/1/

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Thursday, 13 October 2011 13:16 (twelve years ago) link

I don't know why it took me so long to read that article, despite it's having been posted in a few different places. Many beautiful things in't.

WE DO NOT HAVE "SECRET" "MEETINGS." I DO NOT HAVE A SECOND (Laurel), Thursday, 13 October 2011 14:39 (twelve years ago) link

i would actually like to have a discussion about it on a thread, but can't figure out which thread, i mean, there must be one about marriage and being single that suits it.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Thursday, 13 October 2011 22:47 (twelve years ago) link

Robyn, I want to talk about it to. Do you think we need to open it to dudes, or can we do it right here?

WE DO NOT HAVE "SECRET" "MEETINGS." I DO NOT HAVE A SECOND (Laurel), Friday, 14 October 2011 01:22 (twelve years ago) link

there is the 'why aren't women married' thread which is where this article was also posted:
Why aren't women married?

kinder, Friday, 14 October 2011 02:25 (twelve years ago) link

oh okay i didn't see that! thx :)

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Friday, 14 October 2011 03:02 (twelve years ago) link

I followed the hairpin discussion about this article to another hairpin comment about a long-ago letter, and found this quote:

"There is a test to determine whether someone is toxic or nourishing in your relationship with them. Here is the test: You have spent some time with this person, either you have a drink or go for dinner or you go to a ball game. It doesn’t matter very much but at the end of that time you observe whether you are more energised or less energised. Whether you are tired or whether you are exhilarated. If you are more tired then you have been poisoned. If you have more energy you have been nourished. The test is almost infallible and I suggest that you use it for the rest of your life. " - Milton Glaser

I repost it here not because it's only meant for women (obv) or only applicable to romances--the speaker's advice is that you use it for every interpersonal relationship you ever have in your life, which sounds about right--but because sometimes the other dynamics at work in "relationship"-relationships obscure this good-or-bad response that I/we have to the other person, obscure it SO ALMOST-WHOLLY that I can't hear myself.

WE DO NOT HAVE "SECRET" "MEETINGS." I DO NOT HAVE A SECOND (Laurel), Friday, 14 October 2011 15:42 (twelve years ago) link

That test is OTM.

Art Arfons (La Lechera), Friday, 14 October 2011 15:46 (twelve years ago) link

lol I just said this to Laurel offboard but I'm always tired. I love the idea of this test but this might be confusing me for me because how to tell if it's the person or if, you know, I'm just tired! ;) I actually think this is totally otm too.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 14 October 2011 15:48 (twelve years ago) link

I think of it more as energized vs enervated.

Art Arfons (La Lechera), Friday, 14 October 2011 15:50 (twelve years ago) link

Good call.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 14 October 2011 15:50 (twelve years ago) link

I think we bring out behaviors that are toxic to ourselves to that test, too, so if the same thing happens over and over and the thing that those occurrences have in common is ME, my job if I want to feel better is to start thinking about what's in my tote bag at the ball game. Or...something. Crackerjacks, anyone?

WE DO NOT HAVE "SECRET" "MEETINGS." I DO NOT HAVE A SECOND (Laurel), Friday, 14 October 2011 15:55 (twelve years ago) link

I hadn't seen this before just now but I sort of really want to see this film:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2UZZV3xU6Q

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 14 October 2011 16:40 (twelve years ago) link

That has Cory Booker interviewed in it and Metric as the soundtrack--wtf did *I* make this movie??!

WE DO NOT HAVE "SECRET" "MEETINGS." I DO NOT HAVE A SECOND (Laurel), Friday, 14 October 2011 16:45 (twelve years ago) link

:)

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 14 October 2011 16:47 (twelve years ago) link

i did not realize that this was Jennifer Siebel's project! that kinda adds a "twist"

sarahel, Friday, 14 October 2011 16:47 (twelve years ago) link

:D

They're coming to get you, (Jenny), Tuesday, 25 October 2011 14:51 (twelve years ago) link

i am wearing a green longsleeved leotard (with a skirt) today
(just needed to put this somewhere)

Art Arfons (La Lechera), Monday, 31 October 2011 18:28 (twelve years ago) link

I needed complete non-engagement with my tv last night so I went with 3 episodes of "Medium", that cop show with Patricia Arquette. As a police procedural...boy, it was a rough first season.

More notable for other qualities, though. First of all, her husband is my kind of hot. Second, it seems like they have a shockingly equitable marriage for tv? I am really enjoying their dynamic.

WE DO NOT HAVE "SECRET" "MEETINGS." I DO NOT HAVE A SECOND (Laurel), Monday, 31 October 2011 18:35 (twelve years ago) link

The Woman Who Bested the Men at Math

mookieproof, Monday, 31 October 2011 19:02 (twelve years ago) link

That's beautiful! I could picture the announcement scene so clearly!

WE DO NOT HAVE "SECRET" "MEETINGS." I DO NOT HAVE A SECOND (Laurel), Monday, 31 October 2011 19:36 (twelve years ago) link

Very cinematic-sounding, tbh.

WE DO NOT HAVE "SECRET" "MEETINGS." I DO NOT HAVE A SECOND (Laurel), Monday, 31 October 2011 19:36 (twelve years ago) link

Mookie, that's great. I aspire to come up with withering Bathing Establishment-esque comments more often during ridiculous debates.

ljubljana, Tuesday, 1 November 2011 02:23 (twelve years ago) link

how is mookieproof posting in this mookieproofproof thread.

estela, Tuesday, 1 November 2011 03:24 (twelve years ago) link

mookieproofette

tokyo rosemary, Tuesday, 1 November 2011 03:26 (twelve years ago) link

bought Some Kind of Wonderful from the impulse buy movie bin at Walgreens today! will soon thoroughly evaluate the Duncan vs. Keith issue.

sarahel, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 23:24 (twelve years ago) link

Oh man I have not seen that movie for YEARS (read: uh, decades?)--what is Mary Stuart Whatsherface up to for forever now?

quincie, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 00:04 (twelve years ago) link

i feel like, esp since there is talk of movies, that this needs to go itt :)

http://youtu.be/6xOBSlzUqz0

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 06:59 (twelve years ago) link

So I basically sat at my desk with my purse on my lap the entire day because I felt uncomfortable in my new top which is tighter than I would like around.d my middle. It essentially ruined my day. I am so tired of feeling this way and hating myself. Logically I know it's ridiculous but it's been drilled into my head for 30 years and it is so so hard to stop thinking feeling.g this way. Am seriously considering finding a therapist who deals in food/body issues. I am so sad and angry at myself for how much time I've spent dealing with this shit. Every time meet an ILX person I stress for hours about how fat I must have seemed irl. Wtf is that? It is bullshit that's what and yet I fall into this trap time and time again.
Sorry if typos. I'm on a bus.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Thursday, 10 November 2011 23:00 (twelve years ago) link

Uhh instant post regret. It was just a shitty day.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Thursday, 10 November 2011 23:04 (twelve years ago) link

awww! i was gonna post about a related thing yesterday, that facebook is kinda a curse because i don't want to be the friend to say, "hey could you not post that picture? i look horrible in it." when it is a picture of at least four or five people that all look fabulous except for me.

sarahel, Thursday, 10 November 2011 23:09 (twelve years ago) link

Uhhh I have totally done that. I also disabled tagging after Someone tagged me in a pic in which I looked like I was on my 3rd trimester of pregnancy and upon seeing it I actually started crying to the point where I nearly hyperventilated. Yes, I know that isn't normal. :(

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Thursday, 10 November 2011 23:12 (twelve years ago) link

Lol Amanda that's fantastic.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Thursday, 10 November 2011 23:13 (twelve years ago) link

i try to think positively about it, but pretty much just come up with:

1. i never thought of myself as particularly "cute" "hot" etc. anyway
2. at least I have friends

sarahel, Thursday, 10 November 2011 23:13 (twelve years ago) link

i think that has happened to everyone tbh, regardless of size or attractiveness

the MMMM cult (La Lechera), Thursday, 10 November 2011 23:15 (twelve years ago) link

oh E, i'm sorry you had a shitty day. don't blame your feeling-angry-about-feeling-self-conscious-about-feeling-fat for the day's shittiness though - for all you know it might have been shitty entirely without your input! so you don't have to feel like it was your fault.

I have, i think, set my facebook so that if i am tagged in a picture it just politely forgets that fact for me. because every picture taken of me just makes me feel ugly and upset and but i absolutely hate the conversation that follows when you try to get out of sight of a camera.

I like to think of myself as a Young Money-ologist so (c sharp major), Thursday, 10 November 2011 23:16 (twelve years ago) link

it is very hard to apply logic to this stuff on your own, and when you try and talk to friends about it it is easy to ignore whatever they say because as your friends they are duty bound to try and make you feel better. so i think, if it's getting in the way of your feeling like a full human, then you are right to be thinking about taking it to a therapist. surely this is the kind of thing they are for!

I like to think of myself as a Young Money-ologist so (c sharp major), Thursday, 10 November 2011 23:21 (twelve years ago) link

haha it's funny cause it's true...
I always tell people to not trust photos + their own judgment - photos are 1/1000 of a second!

I have self-image issues as well - I think most people do considering how we're constantly bombarded by images of a very narrow definition of beauty. Therapy does work if it's the compassionate kind - this is all about living yourself, not beating yourself up and limiting your life unnecessarily. It's work though! Undoing what we've learned.

Most women have tummies! And some have visible abs and some do not! If you don't love your tummy right now, at least know that it's an important part of your body and it exists - hating things away never works, but loving things into change, whatever that night be that reflects you as you, does work.

Sorry for kinda self-help talkin'... But it's true! From experience!

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Thursday, 10 November 2011 23:23 (twelve years ago) link

That part abt funny cause it's true was xp to cartoon - I am on my phone!

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Thursday, 10 November 2011 23:24 (twelve years ago) link

You're all totally otm and the self-help stuff is good for me to hear because I'm often unfairly dismissive of that sort of thing. I do also think that everyone experiences this to some extent. I'm just really angry and frustrated that I've let myself let it affect my life to the degree that I have. It's seriously incapacitating in some ways. I'm pretty aware of where it stems from and the reasons are many and complicated. It just sucks that identifying why I think this way doesn't really help stop me from doing so. Sorry, just ranting here. Thanks, guys. :)

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Thursday, 10 November 2011 23:31 (twelve years ago) link

I actually do think it's kind of a huge deal to be totally aware that your thoughts/actions/rxns about this aren't rational or realistic. I know it doesn't do much to ease the symptoms, but at least a part of you knows that you are not that fat ugly girl you see in your head.

just1n3, Thursday, 10 November 2011 23:40 (twelve years ago) link

Am seriously considering finding a therapist who deals in food/body issues.

I cannot champion this course of action enough. That shit is SO PERVASIVE and if you had any kind of food/body image inculcation as a kid (and who freaking didn't, really?) it's just way too much to untangle by yourself, I think. And if it makes you feel any better, I had a near nervous breakdown on my one year wedding anniversary because I had planned to wear my wedding dress (just a regular dress) out to dinner and it didn't fit. Totally incapacitating.

But truly: where you are feels terrible (I know, I have felt it, and if I try to talk about it with somebody else who feels that way, I will actually start crying, that is how terrible it feels) but it is surmountable and it's possible to get past it.

They're coming to get you, (Jenny), Thursday, 10 November 2011 23:44 (twelve years ago) link

Also I still have days that aren't great on the body image front, but that nonstop voice in my head that takes every opportunity to blame every failing on my weight is gone ("Oh, you missed the light trying to cross the street. You probably could have made it if you weren't so fat" for example). It is so fucking liberating and wonderful to not hear that all the time. I want that for all of you!

They're coming to get you, (Jenny), Thursday, 10 November 2011 23:48 (twelve years ago) link

I have had incapacitating illogical reactions to my skin breaking out, which prompted me to look into self-image issues further and get to the heart of the matter. To me, there's no 'fix' for these issues, just gradual steps to having them matter much much less so they don't fuck w life as much - kind of how yoga is a practice in consciousness not an exercise regime, this is a practice too.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Thursday, 10 November 2011 23:54 (twelve years ago) link

Yeah Justine you're probably right.

Jenny - I've talked about this a bit with Horseshoe offboard a bit and she'd mentioned a conversation you'd had years ago so I sort of knew you had some experience with this. She also sent me a bunch of really great websites that I've gone through and read and agreed with and felt empowered by. Somehow though I still found myself sitting there today with a giant fucking purse on my lap because I felt like I was hiding something that probably nobody would have noticed to begin with and the result of which was probably people noticing me not because of my ill-fitting shirt but because I'm the weirdo with her bag on her lap all day.

Also yes, I have a long dumb history with this stuff which is why I think the therapy route might be my best option. It's just frustrating though because of the way I have to go about finding one with my insurance and stuff. The whole process is annoying and off-putting and the last time I tried I gave up after calling a bunch only to find out they weren't accepting new patients.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Thursday, 10 November 2011 23:56 (twelve years ago) link

i have a lot to say about this topic but i am about to go into class and cannot conjure up any emotions lest they get the best of me.
glad to discuss off board at later time tho

the MMMM cult (La Lechera), Friday, 11 November 2011 00:04 (twelve years ago) link

a woman i know lived in singapore for a couple of years. it is a highly policed and restrictive society with a very low crime rate, so she didn't throw trash or chew gum or do the myriad things that will get you arrested, and she lived in total, pure freedom from the fear of being sexually or physically attacked. she said that after about a year of this freedom she was overwhelmed with rage about how her whole life she'd had to look over her shoulder, and how it had always seemed natural to live with the possibility of attack. she was borm in mexico and had lived in europe, the us, and australia and in those countries the warnings and the threats were always there, part of the wallpaper, and only their absence in singapore made her aware of how terrible ot is to always have to be on guard. i think the body/face stuff is the same, and if suddenly it truly didn't matter it would seem completely outrageous that it ever had. poor all of us, trained to waste time worrying about this shit.

estela, Friday, 11 November 2011 00:16 (twelve years ago) link

I can get worked up about this stuff if I let myself, but it's not primarily my looks that I beat myself up over, so there are different subtleties to my self-abuse. But I'm listening and loving all of you and otming this conversation.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 00:19 (twelve years ago) link

lol yes, i've mainly moved on to new self-approbation topics as well, it's a bottomless well.

estela, Friday, 11 November 2011 00:24 (twelve years ago) link

Estela, I like your story and think you're probably right. It's so pervasive though. I think I've had a fairly unique experience insofar as that I've been both a lot heavier and a lot thinner than I am now and the way ppl have treated me when I was at the different ends of that weight spectrum was startling.

When I was literally starving myself I was offered modeling contracts and couldn't go a day without people - both friends and strangers - commenting on my looks. That happened when I was fat too but for the opposite reason. I was ridiculed to the point of tears and ostracized at school. The subject of that bullying was nearly always my weight. Why? Because kids know how to target what hurts. Similarly I had a boyfriend for years who would do things like pull my shirt away from my stomach if it was too clingy and call me a fat bitch when we fought. I think that a lot of the way I feel comes from that. I place a lot of importance on my weight and let it effect how I feel about myself because sadly it is very important to a large number of people out there and I've experienced that in a very real way.

I could seriously ramble about this shit all night.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 00:44 (twelve years ago) link

I have a memory of walking down the street and being yelled at by some guys driving by. They called me a fat cow.

it just sticks with you. This sort of commentary on appearance from strangers is so incredibly common, and can be so disturbing. From a boyfriend–that's appalling, though I know it happens to people.

I had a skinny phase as well–my appetite was crappy because of health problems, and I was skeletal. I was so bony that it was physically uncomfortable. But I got a lot of compliments, which really bothered me in theory. But another part of the loved the compliments, even though I knew it was really screwed up.

JuliaA, Friday, 11 November 2011 01:14 (twelve years ago) link

When I was about 14 and chubby I was walking down the street on Fire Island eating an ice cream cone and some fucking meathead looked at me and said "I don't think you need that, sweetie". I was 14 and yet I remember that like it was yesterday. It started long before then but I'm pretty sure that incident further burned into my brain the idea of good foods v. bad foods and so on. I would kick that asshole in the nuts SO HARD if I could find him today.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 01:17 (twelve years ago) link

I had a skinny phase as well–my appetite was crappy because of health problems, and I was skeletal. I was so bony that it was physically uncomfortable. But I got a lot of compliments, which really bothered me in theory. But another part of the loved the compliments, even though I knew it was really screwed up.

Yep. I used to sort of love it when people would comment on my hipbones or whatever. So screwed up.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 01:18 (twelve years ago) link

i take after my mother: we are healthy enough, yet lacking in self-discipline to ever find ourselves in that situation (e.g. a skinny phase, also anorexia/bulemia).

sarahel, Friday, 11 November 2011 01:21 (twelve years ago) link

I'm trying to figure out how I ended up not having any body image problems, given how much my mother kept banging on about my weight. I've also never had a stranger (as an adult or teenager) insult me about my weight. (The one person that did--frequently--had dementia and said a lot of awful things to me.) I place a lot of importance on my weight, too, but I happen to be 50 pounds overweight and really should get rid of it for my future health.

There's a lot of different things that other women have experienced and I've never experienced, and this is one of them. It feels very strange to me.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 11 November 2011 01:26 (twelve years ago) link

People have always felt OK about commenting on my looks and it's the weirdest thing. The night before I graduated from college (a "heavy" phase - btw I'm 5'10" and the largest I've ever been was a size 16 so we're not talking huge here which sort of makes it even weirder to me) dude tried to pick me up by saying I was the cutest girl in the bar but quickly followed it up by saying I was a little overweight and offering me workout tips. ._.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 01:32 (twelve years ago) link

i think you have an assholes problem masquerading as an adipose one.

estela, Friday, 11 November 2011 01:36 (twelve years ago) link

That sounds about right.

JuliaA, Friday, 11 November 2011 01:38 (twelve years ago) link

Seriously. That guy though? I was just sitting by myself while my roommate was in the bathroom and he came over and sat down. Women do it too. Don't even get me started on my mother and her friends when I was growing up. People are horrible.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 01:42 (twelve years ago) link

I guess I was lucky that my mother nagged me about everything under the sun, not just my weight. It must have meant that the nagging on weight got lost under the rest of the negative noise.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 11 November 2011 01:45 (twelve years ago) link

I wasn't even skinny when I didn't eat for two months. So fuck it. I do care, I care a lot about how people perceive me, but I find it almost impossible to deal with confronting my own corporeal form. I would rather blank it all out and be a faux-dualist - *I* am solely a floating brain, *I* am not a body. Not at all. It is removed, entirely.

emil.y, Friday, 11 November 2011 01:46 (twelve years ago) link

yeah Erica therapy can really help with what you're going through. If you feel it would be a good idea then you should give it a try. The worst thing that can happen is you get a shitty therapist and then you get to hate that therapist instead of yourself for while. (This is how I deal with shitty therapists.)

The amazing litany of undue consequences coming from the ridiculous emphasis our society puts on women's bodies is the reason I could never really be a straight up materialist.

ghost grapes (Abbbottt), Friday, 11 November 2011 01:53 (twelve years ago) link

haha xp!!

ghost grapes (Abbbottt), Friday, 11 November 2011 01:53 (twelve years ago) link

I yoyo, but these days within fairly narrow upper/lower weight limits. They feel to me like massive extremes. ENBB, since weight goes on my stomach, I sit with my purse or a cardigan on my lap most of the time and agree it feels really, really bad.

I certainly overeat sometimes and then over-react/panic/binge. For that behaviour, I recommend Gillian Riley's book Eating Less.

ljubljana, Friday, 11 November 2011 01:54 (twelve years ago) link

Lol, Abbott, I am absolutely not a dualist, it is too philosophically terrible, but phenomenologically I often feel like one.

emil.y, Friday, 11 November 2011 01:56 (twelve years ago) link

x-post It's so funny how we perceive ourselves v how other people do. When I met you the other night I you seemed to tiny to me! I will check out the book.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 01:56 (twelve years ago) link

"so" tiny

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 01:57 (twelve years ago) link

Also, I totally had my bag on my lap the other night too. At some point I think I moved it but then felt weird about it so put it back there. OMG this shit's ridiculous.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 01:58 (twelve years ago) link

The amazing litany of undue consequences coming from the ridiculous emphasis our society puts on women's bodies is the reason I could never really be a straight up materialist.

???

Why is that incompatible with denying the existence of the soul or treating the mind and brain as one?

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 11 November 2011 01:59 (twelve years ago) link

i've always mostly felt like a brain on a stick, it makes health directives seem like abstractions.

estela, Friday, 11 November 2011 01:59 (twelve years ago) link

I hung out w a bunch of folk dancers and musicians last weekend, most of whom weren't Americans, though I'm not sure what difference that would make but it seems possibly relevant, and the women were healthy, beautiful, married or partnered up or at least didn't lack for dance or conversational partners, vivacious, and REAL, and all sizes, and all fit enough to make amazing music and to dance energetically. It was really beautiful, they were all beautiful, and I couldn't stop laughing for the joy of it.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:01 (twelve years ago) link

i have a lot of baggy black cardigans and sweaters -- besides warmth, their purpose is to generate a visual black hole or amorphous blob in the area below boobs and above thighs.

sarahel, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:01 (twelve years ago) link

Why can't it always be like that? xp

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:02 (twelve years ago) link

Hi 90% of my clothing is black for that reason.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:03 (twelve years ago) link

Tiny bones, but side on, I have lost count of times I've been offered seats on trains etc. I've started loudly saying 'THAT'S JUST ME' (I.e. not babby) though people are only trying to be nice.

ljubljana, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:03 (twelve years ago) link

I'm a strict materialist because there's no scientific evidence for either the mind or the soul.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:04 (twelve years ago) link

last thing I want to do is start a materialism v whateverism debate
I just thing it's healthier for me to think that the minutiae of how my body looks is really not that important and that is one way to do it

ghost grapes (Abbbottt), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:05 (twelve years ago) link

what was the aesthetic rationale behind empire waist dresses when they first were popular?

sarahel, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:05 (twelve years ago) link

like, did women want to look pregnant?

sarahel, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:05 (twelve years ago) link

lol I'd milk that shit. Just kidding. I'm surprised that's never actually happened to me. Pretty sure I'd cry. That's how sensitive I am about this stuff. AHHHHH IT IS SO ANNOYING.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:05 (twelve years ago) link

Hi 90% of my clothing is black for that reason.

I thought wearing black tended to make people look heavier unless they were in front of a dark background.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:05 (twelve years ago) link

x-post - oh! I lied. It did happen that once in the Empire waist top but we've done that topic before. Nobody knows. It is a mystery.gif.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:06 (twelve years ago) link

it has happened to me a couple times, both times when wearing "one of those" garments

sarahel, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:06 (twelve years ago) link

x-post What? No. Black is the most slimming of all colors. Right?

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:07 (twelve years ago) link

yes and it hides coffee stains!!

ghost grapes (Abbbottt), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:07 (twelve years ago) link

what was the aesthetic rationale behind empire waist dresses when they first were popular?

IIRC, it was a reaction against the strict corseting of the 18th century.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:07 (twelve years ago) link

but a black empire waist dress will still make you look pregnant.

sarahel, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:08 (twelve years ago) link

Yes, black is also good for hiding stains. This is true. I know because I spill a lot.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:08 (twelve years ago) link

Btw ENBB actual thought patterns at our FAP were about whether I was talking too much and that you are a very good listener! (rather than about weight. ) Also, I never thought about other people also holding bags in laps.

ljubljana, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:08 (twelve years ago) link

You know why I know so much about fucking make-up and accessories? Because while I love fashion it depresses me too much to go clothes shopping so instead I spend my money on other crap and envy girls in cute dresses that I wouldn't dare wear. I stick strictly to basics in clothes. I've been trying to break out of it but it's tough.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:09 (twelve years ago) link

x-post - Yeah see logically I know that ppl don't care enough about it to think about it but that doesn't help much. You didn't talk too much at all - it was very interesting! It's nice to hear that I'm a good listener because I also talk a lot and worry that I'm not. A good listener, I mean.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:11 (twelve years ago) link

Totally wore black pants and a black sweater the other night but at least my blouse had poka-dots - that's something! lol.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:11 (twelve years ago) link

My mother was a rail til she was middle-aged and 4 babies into her life, and she always commented in a worried way on how relatively not-skinny I was, and still says things like, "That dress looks great but what are you going to do about your bottom?" and I say, "Show it off, like the good lord apparently intended, since he gave it to me" and it's not perfect, you know, but it works okay.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:12 (twelve years ago) link

x-post err polka dots

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:12 (twelve years ago) link

x-post - lol! perfect

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:14 (twelve years ago) link

Mine isn't as bad as she used to be but still says things like "Woah I forgot how heavy (or skinny depending on the pic) you once were". It used to be way way worse. Without fail the first thing either of my parents comment on when they see me is my weight. Erica looks great, doesn't she? Is code for - she's lost a few, huh? If they don't make a comment within the fist couple mins of my being home it's never a good sign.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:16 (twelve years ago) link

Yeah well that's a bunch of bullshit, as you well know.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:17 (twelve years ago) link

I mean talk about pulling the strings on someone's marionette self, that's just pure control ish.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:17 (twelve years ago) link

Yeah, I do.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:18 (twelve years ago) link

Once I came home relatively sans stomach but at an absolutely totally healthy weight and my mum asked me if I was anorexic.

ljubljana, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:19 (twelve years ago) link

Living with F gave me a whole new insight on, "If I say or do this damaging thing, I can control the other person for the rest of the situation/day" so maybe I'm a little over-sensitive, but seeing attempts to do that makes me really angry now.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:19 (twelve years ago) link

what's amazing to me is how people who do this stuff leave hobo marks on your psyche that other abusive people can immediately read.

estela, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:22 (twelve years ago) link

otm

Yeah, I think there's definitely something to that.

I think being just sort of out of what people consider to be ideal weight and somewhat attractive is a weird position to be in because I feel like it makes people more likely to say things? Like oh if you were just a little thinner you could do x. I don't know, that probably doesn't make much sense. Sorry - I'm getting tired.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:24 (twelve years ago) link

No I know what you mean.

ljubljana, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:25 (twelve years ago) link

"if you were just a little thinner i would pick on you about y instead."

estela, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:27 (twelve years ago) link

i think there is no ideal weight or attractiveness that will keep the assholes at bay.

sarahel, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:27 (twelve years ago) link

There is no anything that will, because they're assholes.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:29 (twelve years ago) link

This kind of criticism is really about control...ownership...having a right to your body, a right to your psyche, a right to script your inner monologue. It's mind-blowingly presumptuous.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:31 (twelve years ago) link

I like empire waist dresses!

tokyo rosemary, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:33 (twelve years ago) link

what a great conversation love you guys

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:34 (twelve years ago) link

fucking facebook so much to answer for

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:34 (twelve years ago) link

i tried on party dresses all day, so i appreciate this thread trending this way right now.

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:36 (twelve years ago) link

My favorite was when I had family hinting that I was getting too fat and guy friends saying nooo don't lose weight you look good.

And I would just think to myself fuck you all!!!

tokyo rosemary, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:36 (twelve years ago) link

tokyo rosemary otm

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:39 (twelve years ago) link

everyone can shut it, family and guys

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:39 (twelve years ago) link

Trying on dresses is one thing that will slay me, if they're not stretchy. When it's separates, I can say, "That skirt is too small" or "I can't believe that's a Size X", but dresses tell you what size your WHOLE BODY is "supposed" to be and they make me so mad.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:39 (twelve years ago) link

people can say you look great, of course. it's not rocket science.

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:39 (twelve years ago) link

WHO WEARS THESE? NOT PEOPLE WITH LEGS FOR WALKING AND DANCING WITH, I CAN TELL YOU THAT.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:40 (twelve years ago) link

ALSO NOT PEOPLE WHO WILL BE SITTING DOWN, OR EATING, OR BREATHING, APPARENTLY.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:41 (twelve years ago) link

I really like empire waists, too. They shorten my waist and make my breasts pop out--for some reason (and it's really, really odd, because I'm a 38DD), they tend to get lost under my clothes. (I have a big belly, but I've never really noticed the looking-pregnant thing with empire waists.)

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:41 (twelve years ago) link

i guess i would echo what Erica and Jennya and Abbott said that it is totally worth it to take this stuff seriously and talk to someone trained in it. because as estela said so much wasted life spent thinking about it!

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:41 (twelve years ago) link

the other day when i had heart palpitations? my pants were too tight.
i put on my green sweatpants and felt MUCH better.

the MMMM cult (La Lechera), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:42 (twelve years ago) link

dresses don't make me nearly as unhappy/angry as pants.

sarahel, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:42 (twelve years ago) link

pants are the worst

the MMMM cult (La Lechera), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:43 (twelve years ago) link

hahah Jennya! i kind of like that

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:43 (twelve years ago) link

I'm glad that it turned out to be nothing more serious than that, Amanda.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:43 (twelve years ago) link

i literally don't wear pants because of this shit

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:43 (twelve years ago) link

Sweat pants make everything better.

sp sarahel, I totally stopped wearing pants, that was my solution.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:43 (twelve years ago) link

So many xps!!! looooooooooool

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:43 (twelve years ago) link

that's ridiculous now that i read it but it's true.

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:43 (twelve years ago) link

lol Laurel <3

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:43 (twelve years ago) link

laurel! i took your advice and now wear skirts & dresses most of the time

sarahel, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:44 (twelve years ago) link

I don't mind pants so much. My main problem with pants is that the regular ones are too short and the long ones are too long.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:45 (twelve years ago) link

i can't believe that MY PANTS were causing me to be short of breath! that's appalling.
today i am wearing a pinstriped waistless overall dress that i have had since 1993
one time a student referred to it as a "business apron" and that strengthened my resolve to continue wearing it

the MMMM cult (La Lechera), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:45 (twelve years ago) link

I'm a 5'6" woman with the waist of a 6'4" woman and the legs of a 4'11" woman. Yes, pants are the worst.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:45 (twelve years ago) link

I have jeans, I mean it's not like I totally foreswore convenience forever. But unless I were to wear yoga pants everywhere like the woman working at the pharmacy today that I totally envied for 2 minutes, pants will just not do.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:45 (twelve years ago) link

I WANT A BUSINESS APRON

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:46 (twelve years ago) link

I should probably just always get long and have them hemmed. Why I have not thought of this before I do not know.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:46 (twelve years ago) link

this may have already been covered (i suspect by Jennya the Jenius) but i just want to say in my experience i am particularly hard on my body when im really stressed about big life what will become of me type stuff. i think women are trained to process that stuff through their looks because it's our jobs to be pleasing to others and also you actually have very little control over you know how soon you'll get a job but you can feel (illusorily) like if you just buckle down you can make your ass smaller. this is horrifying when you realize you're doing it but i also find it clarifying and it helps me stop.

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:46 (twelve years ago) link

The OTMest!

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:47 (twelve years ago) link

i actually have a lot of hokey things i do to make myself feel better about this stuff, like look at other women's bodies and think nice thigns about them.

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:47 (twelve years ago) link

like, a range of body types i mean

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:48 (twelve years ago) link

that sounds weird, but when i was at my worst about this stuff i was ridiculously punishing of my own body and other womens unless they fit a ridiculously narrow (in every sense) archetype. i literally had crazy eyes. it's better now.

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:48 (twelve years ago) link

Oh god, pants.

tokyo rosemary, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:49 (twelve years ago) link

i got it at RAVE in the mall when i worked there my freshman year of college
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6036/6332941197_aa5cb67a0e.jpg

ok back to class -- KIP my peoples

the MMMM cult (La Lechera), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:49 (twelve years ago) link

Dresses are a problem with me because of my hirsutism, but switching to Nair helped--I don't have to shave my legs every four hours any more when I wear a skirt.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:50 (twelve years ago) link

I don't think I'm as hard on other women as I am on myself. I definitely try not to be. Going to start using your tricks tbh.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:50 (twelve years ago) link

yeah! i was a having a low self-esteem day last Friday, and then I went to see Wild Flag, and the drummer looked way hot, even though she had my build, and she was wearing this supercute black & white polka-dot dress with a black waistband, and it made me feel better about myself.

sarahel, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:50 (twelve years ago) link

I talk about this all the time and it won't be news to anyone, but I try to use that displacement to my advantage when I'm stressing about things outside my control like my body and why no one will ever love me, by making myself useful/creative in some way that makes me sweat it out and be strong. It's not "better" if it puts a certain kind of helpfulness or utility over JUST BEING A PERSON WHO CAN BE WRONG OR FOOLISH SOMETIMES, so I should probably flag that and curb it, but I find that approach v empowering.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:50 (twelve years ago) link

*waves to Amanda*

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:51 (twelve years ago) link

now i want a business apron too.

estela, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:51 (twelve years ago) link

It's an engineer overall!! Imma get you a wooden train whistle.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:52 (twelve years ago) link

I don't think I'm as hard on other women as I am on myself. I definitely try not to be. Going to start using your tricks tbh.

― Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Thursday, November 10, 2011 9:50 PM (52 seconds ago) Bookmark

i don't think you are, either. i have actually had the thought that you are very good at being generous about other people's looks. i was a horrible wench in my head my sophomore year of college, by contrast. i think it was because i was hungry tbh.

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:52 (twelve years ago) link

to be horseshoe<3

estela, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:52 (twelve years ago) link

i think it was because i was hungry tbh.

Real lols!!

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:53 (twelve years ago) link

Being hungry can totally bring the crazy.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:53 (twelve years ago) link

I am horrible, horrible, in my head. If people could hear me, I would shunned from society, and rightly so. Horrible. I'm a lot happier these days than I have been in years and years, so it's easing up but...this is why my inner Laurel needs to be kept in check with rules and stuff.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:54 (twelve years ago) link

I try to channel rrrobyn a lot when I start doing that. It helps! And it makes me happier because rrrobyn.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:55 (twelve years ago) link

remembering being hungry is the other thing i do, tbh. that sucked and i don't care how much i hate the pictures people tag of me on facebook i'm not doing it again.

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:55 (twelve years ago) link

as in you had an eating disorder?

sarahel, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:56 (twelve years ago) link

the thign about the being horrible in your head is it's all terrible lies. like, this will sound trivial but i had the experience after i stopped being so crazy of going back and seeing movies that i had watched in that crazy frame of mind and thinking, how could i have thought this incredibly thin actress was fat? seriously that intense punishing gaze is some funhouse mirror shit.

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:57 (twelve years ago) link

no i didn't have an eating disorder i just obsessively dieted. i would say my eating was disordered sometimes but no more than most women i knew, sadly.

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:57 (twelve years ago) link

It is, but mine isn't really about fatness, it's about everything else, and everything.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:58 (twelve years ago) link

but i did have one particularly bad year of it.

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:58 (twelve years ago) link

xp Christine - i just wear black tights, except when it's super hot, but pretty much when it's 90 degrees, i am in not-giving-a-shit that i haven't shaved my legs in a month territory.

sarahel, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:58 (twelve years ago) link

It's really nice to reflexively have healthy responses to things, though, and then remember when it would not have been a healthy response, and marvel at how I've managed to change the rules of the world I make for myself to live in, over time.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 02:59 (twelve years ago) link

Whenever I have a major attack of the guilts, I think back and see if I've forgotten to take my medication. Almost always, it turns out that I had.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 11 November 2011 02:59 (twelve years ago) link

it is always instructive, too, when beautiful, amazing women like Erica have these feelings and then i just get infuriated like IT IS TOTAL BULLSHIT THAT SHE IS SPENDING EVEN A SECOND OF HER TIME WORRYING ABOUT THIS

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 03:00 (twelve years ago) link

that's true about everyone, and then you can kind of turn it around and apply it to yourself

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 03:00 (twelve years ago) link

xp Christine - i just wear black tights, except when it's super hot, but pretty much when it's 90 degrees, i am in not-giving-a-shit that i haven't shaved my legs in a month territory.

That would work for me, except that my legs look after a week of not shaving like most women's do after a month.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 11 November 2011 03:02 (twelve years ago) link

I often think admiringly of Amanda and her quickness to be affronted at slights to her person, because she gives herself the benefit of her own protectiveness.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 03:02 (twelve years ago) link

xp I look back to my Twenties, when I was genuinely lock-her-up mentally ill, with a lot of horror.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 11 November 2011 03:03 (twelve years ago) link

is it actually visible if you're wearing black tights? maybe i'm that much of a lazy slob to think it looks fine?

sarahel, Friday, 11 November 2011 03:03 (twelve years ago) link

"THIS ONE is taking herself home." I just adore the fiery little person who said that and didn't lose a SECOND to self-recrimination or feeling apologetic to those people.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 03:04 (twelve years ago) link

omg as long as i'm oversharing, i'll give a specific example. my mother is a very beautiful woman and i think not coincidentally really in the bell jar about this stuff. a couple years ago she was really really bad with the never stopping talking about how disgustingly fat she was (she's not but it doesn't really matter). just horrible things she would say about herself. anyway, we were having a picnic oen day and she found out an older woman she knew had been left alone for the weekend by her family. and my mom just flew into action, picked the woman up, brought us home, whipped up a ten-course meal and entertained her friend in an incredibly graceful way. i was sort of in awe and i remember thinking, this is what everyone loves about you, how capable and generous you are, not how effing small you are! it seemed like a tragedy she couldn't see herself that way.

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 03:04 (twelve years ago) link

these stories are breaking my heart!

sarahel, Friday, 11 November 2011 03:05 (twelve years ago) link

Right on, hs!

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 03:05 (twelve years ago) link

:-)

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 11 November 2011 03:05 (twelve years ago) link

I love your mother now!

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 03:07 (twelve years ago) link

Just from that story!

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 03:07 (twelve years ago) link

aw i sort of got tears in her eyes typing it tbh. she is lovely but i don't want to be talking about how gross i look when i'm in my 60s.

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 03:08 (twelve years ago) link

is it actually visible if you're wearing black tights?

I haven't worn black tights in years, but when it got really, really lush on my legs the hairs tended to stick out a little. But I doubt this is a problem for you.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 11 November 2011 03:08 (twelve years ago) link

loooool tears in my eyes jesus

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 03:08 (twelve years ago) link

Aw, that story is great. :)

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 03:09 (twelve years ago) link

I agree.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 11 November 2011 03:09 (twelve years ago) link

I got all verklempt reading it too, don't worry. I can picture your mom perfectly now and I have no idea what she even looks like.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 03:09 (twelve years ago) link

another thing to say about that is my mom was berating herself because her body had changed since she was, you know, 25. and i find myself doing the same thing and it's like, bodies change, you know?

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 03:10 (twelve years ago) link

you know you know you know

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 03:10 (twelve years ago) link

Yeah, I've aired this on ilx before, in bits and pieces, but my mom does exactly the same thing, and having witnessed that for the last 30 years, I remind myself to extend myself the same outrage I felt for her when she did it in my hearing.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 03:12 (twelve years ago) link

this is kind of off-topic, but when my parents came out to the US last year, we picked them up from the airport and on the way home my dad said to my husband "you've put on a bit of weight since we last saw you". i was FURIOUS - like, it's not ok to say that to my husband just bc he's male, my dad would never in a million years say that to me about my weight.

also kind of off topic: the last time i was this heavy, i was in a very bad situation in my life, a very terrible and degrading relationship, everything was shit. now i'm v v happy, and in an amazing relationship, but this weight reminds me of that other time... i don't really know how to articulate this but it really bothers me in a related but separate way to the general i-hate-my-body feelings.

just1n3, Friday, 11 November 2011 03:13 (twelve years ago) link

My mom's got all these unresolved health problems, maybe lupus or something (some doctors think), but she's also been in a lot of car accidents lately and maybe it's neurological stuff. They don't know. She's got a banging R. Crumb girl kind of build that I inherited and these health issues have meant she's progressively losing a lot of weight for reasons no one can really figure out.

I should also note she's one of the hardest-working, volunteeringest, most self-extending ladies at her church (and there is stiff fucking competition in the world of Mormon women). She does a lot of unrequited good for a lot of people, and she's so kind and chill about all of it. But it's losing all this weight that finally earned her praise and attention and congratulations from both the women and men in her church. I was both relieved and fucking apoplectic to hear her say that it's the only thing that will earn women in her position any praise, that it's the only area of self-improvement people will recognize. Like, how cool that she's self-aware that that's bullshit, but how sad that that's the case. You have to look at the 99+% of the good things you are doing in life that have nothing to do with your waistline even if a lot of parts of society sometimes refuse to validate them.

ghost grapes (Abbbottt), Friday, 11 November 2011 03:13 (twelve years ago) link

I can't catch up, so

I hate pants too. All my skinny coworkers wear tight black pants and I love the look but I have to choose between tight around the thighs and my stomach or loose, I invariably choose loose and feel like a dumpy loser. Pants are my Depressed Clothes.

Viva les skirts. I have been wearing them and dresses 95% of the time (scarily, winter approaches..) and I have recently become addicted to Spanx as well..they were uncomfortable at first but they really give me back the beautiful shape my body has before I put clothes on it (I'm squishy, so there's always bra/waist/underwear lines) and erase all the bumpiness and it has been making me feel SO much better about having 50 pounds on most of my coworkers!

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Friday, 11 November 2011 03:14 (twelve years ago) link

ugh that shit makes me crazy Abbott i'm sorry your mom is dealing with people being idiots on top of worrisome weight loss.

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 03:15 (twelve years ago) link

You guys, Jenny was otm about this w/r/t relationships, and I think about it all the time since she put it into words, it's pretty damn obvious I guess, but...we have to make a new way, you know? For ourselves as we age and change and get crone-ier in all ways. We can do better. We have each other, first of all, and this conversation and a thousand more like it, it feels like a richness right now and I just know we can make something out of it.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 03:15 (twelve years ago) link

I wear a waist whittler every day myself (one from Hanes), and it does make a difference.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 11 November 2011 03:17 (twelve years ago) link

You guys, Jenny was otm about this w/r/t relationships, and I think about it all the time since she put it into words, it's pretty damn obvious I guess, but...we have to make a new way, you know? For ourselves as we age and change and get crone-ier in all ways. We can do better. We have each other, first of all, and this conversation and a thousand more like it, it feels like a richness right now and I just know we can make something out of it.

― It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Thursday, November 10, 2011 10:15 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

yes, this is what i want! hear, hear!

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 03:18 (twelve years ago) link

:-) :-)

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 11 November 2011 03:19 (twelve years ago) link

and there is stiff fucking competition in the world of Mormon women

omg, so true! where i grew up, there was a sizeable Mormon population, and they were heavily involved in the community music and theater programs - they made _my_ mom feel lazy! And my mom, when i was growing up, worked 65-70 hour weeks, plus catered parties for my grandparents' numerous social functions, and cooked and cleaned for me and my dad.

sarahel, Friday, 11 November 2011 03:22 (twelve years ago) link

yeah one of many reasons I'm not Mormon anymore, I like saying no

ghost grapes (Abbbottt), Friday, 11 November 2011 03:23 (twelve years ago) link

Church women are something else. I think Mormons might have that cornered, but I think Swedes could give them a run for their money!

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 03:23 (twelve years ago) link

there's also serious peer pressure among Mormon matrons!

sarahel, Friday, 11 November 2011 03:23 (twelve years ago) link

It's not for nothing that there's a book for women called When I Say No, I Feel Guilty.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 03:23 (twelve years ago) link

She does a lot of unrequited good for a lot of people, and she's so kind and chill about all of it. But it's losing all this weight that finally earned her praise and attention and congratulations from both the women and men in her church . . . I was both relieved and fucking apoplectic to hear her say that it's the only thing that will earn women in her position any praise, that it's the only area of self-improvement people will recognize. Like, how cool that she's self-aware that that's bullshit, but how sad that that's the case. You have to look at the 99+% of the good things you are doing in life that have nothing to do with your waistline even if a lot of parts of society sometimes refuse to validate them.

This is so fucking otm it's not even funny. It speaks to what I was talking about earlier.

Big things I have done in my life:

Played 2nd chair 1st violin in a youth symphony
Graduated college
Moved to a city I'd never been to with just the stuff in my car and made it on my own
Moved to another country
Volunteered for various places and youth organizations
Gotten married
Cared for my sick mom a lot
Gone to graduate school and graduated with my MA and a 3.8 GPA

You know what people praised and gave me all sorts of weird attention for than all those things combined?

Losing 30 fucking pounds and getting down to a size 8/10.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 03:26 (twelve years ago) link

I'm not sure gotten is a word and am pretty sure got would have sufficed there but you know.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 03:27 (twelve years ago) link

Erica that is an amazing CV of awesome. Your actions make you a total hero to me! You have such a good heart and you're so strong, that's the most important thing.

ghost grapes (Abbbottt), Friday, 11 November 2011 03:28 (twelve years ago) link

You're always 1000% the most sensible person about women's health/repro issues, it's so fucking smart and refreshing, and it's because of all this personal & intellectual effort you've done. I mean when you're on your death bed that's the kind of shit that'll carry you through, I think, not "at least I'm not a size 16 anymore."

ghost grapes (Abbbottt), Friday, 11 November 2011 03:29 (twelve years ago) link

otm and otm

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 03:30 (twelve years ago) link

that is another thing that helps me when my brain gets crazy on me about this stuff. to think, i don't value people because they have the "willpower" to lose x amount of weight. the things i value are different.

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 03:30 (twelve years ago) link

the last time i was a size 16, i was pretty thrilled about it tbh

sarahel, Friday, 11 November 2011 03:31 (twelve years ago) link

Gotten is a word, actually.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 11 November 2011 03:31 (twelve years ago) link

You also quit smoking, Erica!!! So many things not on that list I am sure you can give yourself credit on.

ghost grapes (Abbbottt), Friday, 11 November 2011 03:31 (twelve years ago) link

x-post Aw, thanks guys. You're totally right Abs about what I'll realize is most important. The things I listed are all way more important to me in the whole scheme of things and what ppl seem to put importance on is so completely ass-backwards. I'm just angry that I've spent so much time and energy on it all for the last 30 some odd years. That any of us have, really.

BULLSHIT.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 03:32 (twelve years ago) link

lol Abs - I mostly quit. Still allowing myself to bum when drinking which is usually about once maybe twice a week and rarely amounts to more than 5 total. I'm OK with that because it's a lot better than a pack a day but I feel like I'm cheating saying I quit since i didn't do so entirely.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 03:33 (twelve years ago) link

also you are all wonderful

and thank you - I feel better for having ranted and for the support.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 03:36 (twelve years ago) link

<3

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 03:36 (twelve years ago) link

Ha I might have secretly started socially smoking, too.
I was seriously all ready to start again in March – 2 packs a day again because I was "thin" when I was smoking that much. Well how fucked up is that that a big part of me thought it would be wise to put fucking proven carcinogens into my body and not breathe well anymore and feel like an uncleaned bbq grill all the time in the idea of some potential of looking like a starving depressio again. Goddamn.

ghost grapes (Abbbottt), Friday, 11 November 2011 03:39 (twelve years ago) link

Also when I was smoking that much I was super poor and not spending money on FOOD and had not even a bicycle, getting everywhere by foot, so it wasn't just smoking that got me there, it was being at a personal nadir.

ghost grapes (Abbbottt), Friday, 11 November 2011 03:40 (twelve years ago) link

YMMV of course!!

ghost grapes (Abbbottt), Friday, 11 November 2011 03:40 (twelve years ago) link

yeah, take it from me, it is totally possible to smoke 2 packs a day and be a fatty.

sarahel, Friday, 11 November 2011 03:40 (twelve years ago) link

Yeah. It's so fucked up but fear of gaining weight is def part of why it took me so long to even cut back this much. :/

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 03:41 (twelve years ago) link

there are so many fucked up emotional and self-image reasons why i haven't quit smoking ... i just don't even ...

sarahel, Friday, 11 November 2011 03:42 (twelve years ago) link

I actually don't get how you can smoke 2 packs a day at all. I guess I probably have once or twice if that day also included a night out with booze. That's a lot of smoking though! Not nearly as bad as the old pres of BU who smoked 5 packs a day. How do you fit 100 cigarettes into 24 hours? HOW???

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 03:42 (twelve years ago) link

x-post - oh I very very strongly identified as a smoker and just couldn't imagine myself as someone who didn't smoke which is weird because ppl who don't know I smoke often find it strange to find out I do. Seeing myself as a non-smoker is really odd and prob part of the reason I keep allowing myself the social ones.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 03:43 (twelve years ago) link

what's amazing to me is how people who do this stuff leave hobo marks on your psyche that other abusive people can immediately read.

― estela, Thursday, November 10, 2011 9:22 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

i missed this before and it is so true! and brilliant! y'all are amazing.

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 03:54 (twelve years ago) link

^^^

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 11 November 2011 03:55 (twelve years ago) link

It is true, and I wonder how it's telegraphed, and I've seen it in action with certain people, but it's something that's hard to talk about because it can feel, even to yourself, like blaming the victim. But it is a thing.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 03:56 (twelve years ago) link

There must be a facet of "this is what I deserve" in it, a passivity in certain moments.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 03:57 (twelve years ago) link

i think it can sometimes involve a component of the abused person seeking out what's familiar but it needn't. i think estela was specifically referring to random driveby acts of cruelty.

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 03:59 (twelve years ago) link

The passivity is why I'm trying to learn to listen faster when someone is starting to border on manipulation in my hearing, because the speaker is judging you in microseconds, weighing their chances, and I don't hear them fast enough.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 04:00 (twelve years ago) link

I've always had problems with this, too. I don't know if it's my bipolar-fed self-absorption or my auditory processing problems, but I often don't realize how much I'm being treated like a fool until later on.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 11 November 2011 04:18 (twelve years ago) link

You need to conjure my well calibrated bs detector -- it's what makes me good at my job!

the MMMM cult (La Lechera), Friday, 11 November 2011 04:42 (twelve years ago) link

I have so much to add to this convo abt moms and self worth and smoking but I feel like maybe we could start planning a fap so I don't have to type it all out. So much to tell.

the MMMM cult (La Lechera), Friday, 11 November 2011 04:43 (twelve years ago) link

god, i know, right?

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 04:45 (twelve years ago) link

Problem is, I live 100+ miles away from everybody. *cries*

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 11 November 2011 05:01 (twelve years ago) link

1. I am standing on the shoulders of giants w/r/t anything I say on the matter of body image, although I am flattered by the props.
2. I am aces at wearing skirts in very cold weather and am happy to share tips and tricks.
3. I missed the big convo last night because I was attending a fundraiser for a trans-inclusive, feminist health center (I'm on the board) and being involved in something like that and seeing all of the amazing, confident people who have struggled with their bodies coming out to celebrate was pretty damn awesome. Also my gyn received a "golden speculum" award.

Your friend,
Jennya

They're coming to get you, (Jenny), Friday, 11 November 2011 15:27 (twelve years ago) link

uh, trans-inclusive, feminist health center sounds like my ideal place of employment tbh

I really hope that the award was actually a statue of a gold speculum.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 15:29 (twelve years ago) link

I hope it actually was a gold speculum!

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 11 November 2011 15:37 (twelve years ago) link

It was! The director made a good joke about the interns having to call the trophy shop and explain what they wanted them to make.

It's a great org. I'll talk about it off board or on 77 all day if you'd like.

They're coming to get you, (Jenny), Friday, 11 November 2011 15:37 (twelve years ago) link

I don't know how or when we would fap but it is a lifelong dream.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 15:39 (twelve years ago) link

Looping back to my "therapy is awesome" drumbeat, I got involved with this org by googling "feminist therapy Chicago" which I wasn't even sure existed, and started seeing a counselor there and she was amazing. I mean, imagine feeling overwhelmed by the various demands society places on you to look perfect, and getting ridiculed bc you spend too much time trying to meet these standards, and then there's ANOTHER sexist beer commercial and a guy you've known and liked for years makes a rape joke on Facebook and tells you to quit being so humorless when you object and going to see a therapist and being like "Patriarchy! Rape culture! Insane, unattainable beauty standards!" and your therapist says "YES I KNOW."

She eventually moved out of town and recommended me for the board, which still cracks me up. "I've been a crying, anxious/depresso mess all over your office every other week for four years... Are you sure you want to recommend me for a position of responsibility here?"

They're coming to get you, (Jenny), Friday, 11 November 2011 15:51 (twelve years ago) link

catching up on what i missed last night. i <3 u guys.

It's not for nothing that there's a book for women called When I Say No, I Feel Guilty.

i just bought this! haven't read yet, but i rly need to learn to be more assertive/self-assured.

xp <3

JuliaA, Friday, 11 November 2011 16:14 (twelve years ago) link

also catching up and too overwhelmed to say more than I hear ya, sisters, and <3 and hugs to you all!

quincie, Friday, 11 November 2011 19:01 (twelve years ago) link

wishing we could have a ladies FAP -- everyone's so far away, like thousands of miles away from me, except just1ne -- who i still haven't met.

sarahel, Friday, 11 November 2011 19:02 (twelve years ago) link

Kind of glad I missed this discussion last night because I was drunk and had eaten a big meal and had been holding my stomach in a bit (mainly because of crappy clingy fit of H&M top, I swear I'm never buying anything from them again) (oh also if you can hold your stomach in then it is air, not fat ~science~) and this whole thing makes me really depressed. Just the whole accepted concept that if you are a woman and you have a body then it's fair game for people to assess you by it. I even get way angry at my husband's friends etc for saying 'she could use a sandwich' about a skinny girl, like to show how right-on they are about realising the size 'real women' are or something but JUST SHUT UP.

I guess everyone likes sandwiches so maybe it's not such a bad thing to say.

kinder, Friday, 11 November 2011 20:01 (twelve years ago) link

you should say, "omg, what if she has a gluten allergy?"

sarahel, Friday, 11 November 2011 20:21 (twelve years ago) link

then she could use a sandwich as a WEAPON

I like to think of myself as a Young Money-ologist so (c sharp major), Friday, 11 November 2011 20:59 (twelve years ago) link

xpost - i've been reading this and i totally feel the same way. constantly feeling kind of ugly, avoiding cameras, thinking i should lose weight etc. ugh. how much time have i wasted on this stuff?

seriously, THIS GUY (daria-g), Friday, 11 November 2011 21:58 (twelve years ago) link

I even get way angry at my husband's friends etc for saying 'she could use a sandwich' about a skinny girl, like to show how right-on they are about realising the size 'real women' are or something but JUST SHUT UP.

Ugh, like thin/skinny women aren't real?

tokyo rosemary, Friday, 11 November 2011 22:23 (twelve years ago) link

Sort of relatedly I have this whole rant about men who touch you when they talk to you or when they want to move past you. I work with a guy who does this, and I think it is related to his being a total mansplainer.

tokyo rosemary, Friday, 11 November 2011 22:26 (twelve years ago) link

I have that rant about men who want to get past you in public like a bar or something, who touch you ON THE HIP OR WAIST, which is totally NOT a public touching zone, and is a pretty good way for a total stranger to get his drink spilled/be asked to never accidentally touch you again.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 22:28 (twelve years ago) link

I am not above poking people in the back or shoulder with a stiff finger if they haven't moved after the 2nd or 3rd "excuse me", but that bears no resemblance to the proprietary waist-nudge.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 22:29 (twelve years ago) link

On a similar note before I leave work, how often in old movies do you see a man motion for a woman to go somewhere in front of him and then put a hand in the small of her back to move her there?? Does anyone still do this? I haven't noticed but I discourage people who are not my friends or family from touching me so I wouldn't.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 11 November 2011 22:30 (twelve years ago) link

Ugh, like thin/skinny women aren't real?

"Real Women" is well, well on its way to becoming the new term for "fat women." I expect that we'll see the plus-size section of clothing stores renamed the "real woman" section sometime in the next few years.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 11 November 2011 22:36 (twelve years ago) link

Sort of relatedly I have this whole rant about men who touch you when they talk to you or when they want to move past you.

I've seen more women then men do this, actually.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 11 November 2011 22:38 (twelve years ago) link

i get pretty aggravated by that happening in bars. my favorite is when dudes try to give me directions somewhere when i haven't even asked. i was booking it to the neighborhood post office the other day and arrived with a bag full of packages just about 30 seconds after they locked the door, and was standing there all pissed off because now i had to get a bus to the postal station with late hours. dude walks out of the store next door and says "you look lost." i said (quite evenly, not angry at all) "I'm not lost. I live here." he gets all offended and is like "i was just trying to help. you look lost." arrrgh! how many people are lost who are obviously going to the post office, now?!

i just.. i have always had to be pretty self-sufficient and feel like i get this knee-jerk reaction a lot, as if not needing people to do things for me is off-putting/intimidating/problematic

seriously, THIS GUY (daria-g), Friday, 11 November 2011 22:41 (twelve years ago) link

"I was just trying to help you get lost, girlie."

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 11 November 2011 22:45 (twelve years ago) link

"Real Women" is well, well on its way to becoming the new term for "fat women." I expect that we'll see the plus-size section of clothing stores renamed the "real woman" section sometime in the next few years.

Lane Bryant already refers to its rewards program as "Real Woman Dollars" which is like item #19852 on my list of Shit I Hate about Lane Bryant (in no particular order).

They're coming to get you, (Jenny), Friday, 11 November 2011 23:09 (twelve years ago) link

But "eat a sandwich" is straight bullshit bc it's just another example of people policing women's bodies.

They're coming to get you, (Jenny), Friday, 11 November 2011 23:11 (twelve years ago) link

I was getting my nails done today (blue glitter :D) and I was thinking about how we're going to take the AC units out of the windows tomorrow and how I have bad timing bc I don't want to chip a nail in the process and then this mocking voice pipes up in my head "Oh no! I can't help you life something! I might chip a nail!" and it was just like, dude.

They're coming to get you, (Jenny), Friday, 11 November 2011 23:14 (twelve years ago) link

sometimes when the 'eat a sandwich' brigade sees you eat a sandwich (as you had done all along without their input) and still not gain weight they will then accuse you of bulimia.

<3 blue glitter

estela, Friday, 11 November 2011 23:25 (twelve years ago) link

Or just call you a fat slob because don't you know how many CALORIES are in SANDWICHES????

They're coming to get you, (Jenny), Friday, 11 November 2011 23:30 (twelve years ago) link

Oh I just got a blue nail polish. I got a really dark navy one that's flat and another that isn't glitter but has some crazy pearly action going on. Normally I don't go for that sort of thing but it looks pretty awesome.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Friday, 11 November 2011 23:30 (twelve years ago) link

I got dark deep navy on my toes, light blue glitter on my fingas. The pearly sounds pretty!

They're coming to get you, (Jenny), Friday, 11 November 2011 23:31 (twelve years ago) link

i can never comment on other people's weight, even if i know they have been really trying to lose weight and they have succeeded it makes me cringe, i can't say the words, i find the whole topic too offensive.

estela, Friday, 11 November 2011 23:45 (twelve years ago) link

i think that's the way to do it, honestly. friends of mine have been hurt that i haven't congratulated them on lost weight, but i can't do it either. i end up saying, "you look great. you always looked great," which can be awkward, but whatever.

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 23:46 (twelve years ago) link

i wonder what one could say instead, when you want to tell a friend they look good but don't want to be making a weight comment. "you look happy"? "you look confident"?

I like to think of myself as a Young Money-ologist so (c sharp major), Friday, 11 November 2011 23:54 (twelve years ago) link

can't you just say "you look good"? so many times i've gotten "have you lost weight?" when i absolutely haven't and i suspect i just look awesome and people are trying to tell me that.

horseshoe, Friday, 11 November 2011 23:55 (twelve years ago) link

Haha yes! People often ask me if I've lost weight, usually saying 'You look good. Have you lost weight?" What, can a fat woman not just look good? Damn.

I have a strict non-engagement with diet talk/negative body talk qua negative body talk (as opposed to talking about why we talk about our bodies negatively iykwim)/weight loss talk. I think it irks some of my coworkers, but they will get over it. Or not. I don't really care that much.

They're coming to get you, (Jenny), Saturday, 12 November 2011 00:17 (twelve years ago) link

Yeah my mom-in-law does that when it's so obvious I haven't.* I just ask her not to even talk about weight with me. She's this tiny old willowy hippie and she'll pull her belly out of her shirt and hold it in both hands and say, "look at this, I used to be beautiful." Oh god lady just calm down.

*Also the one time I did lose a bunch of weight she told her son I was having sex with strange men to earn money for speed, because she's a drug and alcohol abuse counselor and can tell these things *_*

puffy paint (Abbbottt), Saturday, 12 November 2011 00:19 (twelve years ago) link

holy crap, your mother-in-law. i am sorry.

horseshoe, Saturday, 12 November 2011 00:20 (twelve years ago) link

Yeah that is not the way to engage with people.

(The drug and alcohol counselor angle reminds me of my dad's ex-wife who once said to me over dinner when I was about 12 that she could tell I was going to be bulimic because she counseled girls with eating disorders.)

They're coming to get you, (Jenny), Saturday, 12 November 2011 00:26 (twelve years ago) link

I mean, what do you say? I can tell you're an idiot because I'm sitting right here and I can hear you?!?

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Saturday, 12 November 2011 01:16 (twelve years ago) link

I'm not good at non-confrontational conflict resolution, in fact I keep quiet when I shouldn't because the responses that come to mind are escalation. Escalationary. Escalative. Fucking shit up. Maybe I should go with the escalation for a while and see how it feels, then figure out my next step.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Saturday, 12 November 2011 01:18 (twelve years ago) link

I bought some blue nail polish last week. It's called Phallic.

tokyo rosemary, Saturday, 12 November 2011 01:39 (twelve years ago) link

Ugh, like thin/skinny women aren't real?

Oh yeah, forgot to mention, "real women" is one of my absolute all-time IA-making fucking things ever. Lol @ the amount of emails and blog posts I wrote about Dove when they did this whole ad campaign re 'real women' in the UK, it's kind of embarrassing but this kind of patronising shit that insidiously creeps into normal language seems to get to me in a way other things don't.
As part of the 'real women' campaign, Dove had a bunch of ads of e.g. a really freckled woman's face that p much said "hey everyone! guess what! Despite what you thought, there's *more* to this woman than her freakish freckles! We're changing the WORLD!"

kinder, Saturday, 12 November 2011 02:22 (twelve years ago) link

The Dove Real Women look exactly like models looked like 25-30 years ago.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Saturday, 12 November 2011 04:38 (twelve years ago) link

ATTN AMANDA: http://www.sockdreams.com/products/accessories/sock-garters/

They're coming to get you, (Jenny), Saturday, 12 November 2011 04:49 (twelve years ago) link

THANK YOU! I not only "need" but geniunely need those. Droopin socks is nagl.

the MMMM cult (La Lechera), Saturday, 12 November 2011 16:41 (twelve years ago) link

agh the irrationality of pms just kills me sometimes, like today. where even though i know its pms and i know my rage is going beyond the call of duty, all this awareness, it does nothing

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Monday, 14 November 2011 19:09 (twelve years ago) link

i'm back home now and i don't plan to leave the house again today tbrr

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Monday, 14 November 2011 19:10 (twelve years ago) link

Blergh I feel you.
I just had to cancel my annual OB-GYN exam due to period starting today. I have had to do this with every exam for the past four years. I am beginning to think it's one of my maladaptive superpowers like blowing out left speakers in all of my stereos and headphones.

puffy paint (Abbbottt), Monday, 14 November 2011 19:22 (twelve years ago) link

hahaa
but you need to reschedule! i also need to go get one of those soon...

i drank some PMS tea and ate some stolen (mmm) and am listening to music (both speakers) and not reading the internet

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Monday, 14 November 2011 20:10 (twelve years ago) link

i keep putting off making ob/gyn appointments (haven't been in 10 yrs, i think?) - i'm afraid they're gonna tell me i have cancer.

sarahel, Monday, 14 November 2011 20:20 (twelve years ago) link

DUDE

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Monday, 14 November 2011 20:28 (twelve years ago) link

SARAHEL

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Monday, 14 November 2011 20:29 (twelve years ago) link

Have you ever had any irregular paps in the past that would make you think you're at-risk for cervical cancer (I assume that's what we're talking about here)?

GOOOOOO!!!!!!

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Monday, 14 November 2011 20:30 (twelve years ago) link

no, it's one of those totally irrational beliefs/fears!

sarahel, Monday, 14 November 2011 20:33 (twelve years ago) link

Think that's bad? My first pap smear was in 1991, and the next one I had was in 2010. (Lack of health care access, not fear of what I could find.)

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Monday, 14 November 2011 20:35 (twelve years ago) link

Sarahel - I'm sure you're fine but you probably should go just to make sure. 10 years is a long time.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Monday, 14 November 2011 20:42 (twelve years ago) link

You should go just to make sure. Then eat your favorite thing for dinner or something similar so you associate going to the gyn with something positive!

They're coming to get you, (Jenny), Monday, 14 November 2011 21:35 (twelve years ago) link

Jenny did I make this up or were you talking about a golden speculum award recently??

puffy paint (Abbbottt), Monday, 14 November 2011 21:37 (twelve years ago) link

that's a good idea, Jenny! when i finally went to the dentist after 15 yrs, i used trips to my fave bookstore and record store (which are both a few blocks from the dentist's office) as a motivator.

sarahel, Monday, 14 November 2011 21:41 (twelve years ago) link

xp Why yes I was. My gyn received such a thing last Thursday at a gala fundraising event for a women's health org on whose board I am.

That sentence is tortured. Let me try again. I'm on the board of a women's health org. They had a fundraiser on Thursday. They gave my gyn a golden speculum award.

I wish you were in Chicago, sarahel, because this org gives the best annual exams in at least a tri-state area. I'm not even kidding! Also: sliding scale from $5 to whatever the high end is.

They're coming to get you, (Jenny), Monday, 14 November 2011 21:41 (twelve years ago) link

OB-GYN is usually my favorite/least stressful health appointment of the year. I just have to make sure I see a woman. I saw a guy OB-GYN in May and I realized I have a real problem with authority figures who are male saying basically anything to do with my reproductive organs. Totally my own problem but a real problem nonetheless. It was a meltdown. Anyway, I rescheduled.

puffy paint (Abbbottt), Monday, 14 November 2011 21:42 (twelve years ago) link

one nice thing about Telegraph Ave. in Berkeley, btw, is that I didn't feel out of place walking down the street and book-shopping with a partially swollen face and a dazed expression.

sarahel, Monday, 14 November 2011 21:43 (twelve years ago) link

I PCP does my annual and he's a guy and I'm fine with that. I've had women too - either one is OK with me but I understand that some ppl have a firm preference.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Monday, 14 November 2011 21:45 (twelve years ago) link

My PCP not "I"

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Monday, 14 November 2011 21:45 (twelve years ago) link

Oh, btw I googled "Feminist Therapy Boston" today and found a place not too far from my home. I emailed and left messages for two of their therapists. Hope I hear back soon.

Juggy Brottleteen (ENBB), Monday, 14 November 2011 21:46 (twelve years ago) link

I was biased against the male OB-GYN from the start because his office had all these weird '90s dolls of Hillary Clinton as a doctor in boxes with all these messages like "public health care? wtf?" on them. (This guy was at a clinic primarily funded by state Medicaid patients like me btw.) And the first thing he said when he saw me chart was a comment on how I'd had an abortion. We had a fight over whether I could get an IUD or not. He agreed to try and then asked, "Do you still want an IUD?" in the middle of insertion when it was clear it wasn't working. Totally condescending. He wrote me an RX for pills and I had to fight with him to fill it at the pharmacy of my choice. So that visit was a clash of two stubborn asses who were both biased against one another from the start.

puffy paint (Abbbottt), Monday, 14 November 2011 21:52 (twelve years ago) link

ENBB, I hope that works out! That is very cool.

Abbot that doc is a huge asshole.

They're coming to get you, (Jenny), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 01:37 (twelve years ago) link

HEY DID YOU KNOW? Glitter nail polish is like IMPOSSIBLE to remove! I have been sitting here with acetone soaked cotton balls and aluminum foil wrapped around my fingers, per this - http://hellobeautiful.com/style-beauty/hellobeautifulstaff2/how-to-remove-glitter-nail-polish/, and it still took an act of god to get this shit off my fingers.

They're coming to get you, (Jenny), Wednesday, 16 November 2011 01:17 (twelve years ago) link

haha yeah i stopped using any heavy glitter nail polish years ago because of just this! it is nail ruiner! i still use ones with "sparkle" or "sheen" or whatever they're calling it, but that's easier to remove.
ooh i need to paint my nails!

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 16 November 2011 01:49 (twelve years ago) link

I really liked having painted nails (I hardly ever do) so I bought some pretty pink polish and planned to paint them tonight but I'm like exhausted from taking that shit off and now disgusted with the whole endeavor.

They're coming to get you, (Jenny), Wednesday, 16 November 2011 01:55 (twelve years ago) link

My nails are still shaped really nicely from the manicure, though.

They're coming to get you, (Jenny), Wednesday, 16 November 2011 01:56 (twelve years ago) link

Ooh, maybe that will be my post-GRE treat this weekend. I get pedicures sometimes but I've never had a manicure. What nail colour goes with v v dark purple almost-black toes wot like I have atm?

ljubljana, Wednesday, 16 November 2011 02:06 (twelve years ago) link

I'm trying to decide between black or raisin for my next nail painting.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 16 November 2011 03:20 (twelve years ago) link

I'm trying to decide between black or raisin for my next nail painting.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 16 November 2011 03:20 (twelve years ago) link

I've always thought that I didn't particularly like diamonds, and I choose a green sapphire for my engagement ring. But my MIL was here for the weekend and she gave me a family heirloom diamond ring and OMG IT IS SO PRETTY AND SPARKLY and now I feel like a silly girl :/

just1n3, Wednesday, 16 November 2011 21:51 (twelve years ago) link

embrace it! what is life for if not to be occasionally giddy and silly??

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Wednesday, 16 November 2011 21:58 (twelve years ago) link

one month passes...

I love Margaret Cho. I've seen her live a couple times - she's always amazing.

☆★☆彡彡 (ENBB), Friday, 13 January 2012 15:25 (twelve years ago) link

I saw her with my Grandpa once! :D

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Friday, 13 January 2012 15:44 (twelve years ago) link

Fuuuuuuck. That is good.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Friday, 13 January 2012 15:49 (twelve years ago) link

I've found some great girly tips on this website, ladies!!

http://lifedeathtoptips.tumblr.com/post/12785741553/sanitarycurves

kinder, Saturday, 14 January 2012 00:07 (twelve years ago) link

oh my god

ENBB, Saturday, 14 January 2012 00:39 (twelve years ago) link

That site is pretty hilarious anyway, but that is just... mind-boggling.

emil.y, Saturday, 14 January 2012 00:47 (twelve years ago) link

four weeks pass...

Okay, why are you posting that here? I couldn't get beyond 'person who does/teaches yoga likes shit song, think that validates everything', but why here rather than the dedicated thread?

emil.y, Sunday, 12 February 2012 07:35 (twelve years ago) link

did we forget to mookieproofproof the thread again?

i found that post p interesting but maybe it's better to discuss on a thread where boys are actually allowed in the room, eh.

marcus junius ubiquitus (c sharp major), Sunday, 12 February 2012 09:08 (twelve years ago) link

I sometimes wish there were an all female secret board on ILX whose members were at least as actively controlled as 77 to stop this nonsense. I know I've talked about this with Ms Agatha offboard.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Sunday, 12 February 2012 09:46 (twelve years ago) link

Are women here unhappy with this thread being women-only? For it to be strictly women was how I've always interpreted it, but just1ne and a few others have said things showing you disagree/don't want that.

I like having beauty tips AND romants ish AND feminist discourse AND James Franco in one place, but I also think a women-only space is valuable, and that would be my choice for tt. Y/N? Thoughts about starting a new thread to that end, if it isn't this one?

Sorry, Lech, I know this is torture for you! If we need a more defined thread, for chrissake let's agree on that and move on.

one little aioli (Laurel), Sunday, 12 February 2012 17:13 (twelve years ago) link

my take on it is that about half of us like the idea of a woman-only thread and about half of us aren't partic bothered one way or the other. i would be into a new thread + would post in it.

horseshoe, Sunday, 12 February 2012 17:14 (twelve years ago) link

Yeah, I basically don't care one way or the other; where private thoughts are concerned, I am more protective of who's reading than who's posting. If everyone can read it anyway, I don't feel the need to formally exclude anyone. But that's me.

I habitually exclude everyone by not saying 85% of the things I am thinking (by choice, not because I am intimidated or w/e)

Laura Lucy Lynn (La Lechera), Sunday, 12 February 2012 17:22 (twelve years ago) link

i have never been a huge participant in this thread (or any thread that isn't a cooking thread, for the past several months) so my opinion should probably not carry as much weight as those who are. there have been topics on this thread i am interested in. and others i am completely bored by or bothered by. i don't think i've ever been one to want any women-only thing though. i am not opposed to having men comment on and discuss women's issues, and i think it can be good a lot of the time. but i have a personal philosophy, increasingly as i get older, that is less gendery.

kim tim jim investor (harbl), Sunday, 12 February 2012 17:25 (twelve years ago) link

yeah i will fall into the habit of imagining this thread as a woman-only space and then remember, oh yeah, dudes can read it, so, it's true, it's hard to imagine creating a truly women's-only space on ilx (or the internet?) at all.

xp

horseshoe, Sunday, 12 February 2012 17:25 (twelve years ago) link

faves thing about looking at this thread as a mod is seeing the dozens of cancelled out posts of men saying 'hey why come i no post here' – continuing that fine tradition
http://www.emilymagazine.com/?p=837 is the link in question

Nick Chopper (Abbott), Sunday, 12 February 2012 17:26 (twelve years ago) link

i think i would participate in a thread that discussed feminism and allowed men. or like a book thread. i am not that interested in feminist blogs for the past few years.

kim tim jim investor (harbl), Sunday, 12 February 2012 17:26 (twelve years ago) link

since I started student teaching this total Australian shepherd side has come out that I think is hilarious
nip nip

Nick Chopper (Abbott), Sunday, 12 February 2012 17:27 (twelve years ago) link

lol i just searched ilx for a nonblog "feminism" thread to revive for harbl and the results were hilarious.

horseshoe, Sunday, 12 February 2012 17:28 (twelve years ago) link

It's fairly obvious from Just1ne's contributions to our many lovely clusterfuck threads that her problem is actually a personal one with me. And she is perfectly entitled to feel that way and express it however she wants, but it is fast becoming mutual.

I *do* want a woman only space, and one where it's romants issues AND feminist discourse and *hot boy du jour* all at the same time, like what "womens magazines" should be. But maybe that space isn't going to be on ILX and I should just dealwithit.gif

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Sunday, 12 February 2012 17:28 (twelve years ago) link

I think at one point I was surprised that people were objecting to men posting itt because I thought it was started in a light-hearted NO BOYS ALLOWED! sort of girls-only clubhouse sort of way and not in a serious safe space way. The safe space thing is sort of weird to me because it's not like men can't read the thread. I do respect the fact that other people feel such a thread is/would be useful although since it would never truly be women-only, and because I don't really feel an overwhelming need for such a space anyway, it's not a huge deal for me one way or the other.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Sunday, 12 February 2012 17:36 (twelve years ago) link

it totally did start in that way; i just think it's become different things to different people over time.

horseshoe, Sunday, 12 February 2012 17:37 (twelve years ago) link

I was actually gonna start a "Female Gaze / Queer Gaze" to have pictures of hott dudes and also discussion of hott dudes and societal conceptions of male hottness, but done in a way which *assumed* a female or queer gaze to start with. Not that straight men would be excluded, not at all, but that they would be exposed to the topsy-turvy experience (that all women and queer men face every day) of experiencing a world that does not cater exclusively their gaze and their desires. Because I think that would 1) be fun and gratifying and entertaining to look at/discuss boys and their hottness but 2) might also be an interesting social experiment and everyone might learn something.

But that is not the same as having an actual safe space where you do not have to deal with the fear of having to deal with ~all the awful stuff that Men On The Interweb Do~ (yes, even our nice, sweet ILX men who are princes compared to the wilds of other internet forums) or having to deal with that constant, reflexive fear that I feel like I live under. I get that many of you think this makes me an awful human being because I have this need to have a place to retreat to, but, y'know, I can't tell other people how to interpret my actions in ways that aren't automatically totally awful.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Sunday, 12 February 2012 17:38 (twelve years ago) link

And the problem isn't so much men reading, it really is men who feel the *need* to stick their oar in, even when they've been told not to.

It's almost like, I can't stop people from looking at me, but I sure as hell can stop them from shouting at me, or touching me.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Sunday, 12 February 2012 17:39 (twelve years ago) link

For me the point is not that content is secret, so I don't mind men reading it. I just don't want to hear their voices/opinions on every single topic esp if it is in fact about gender issues that I don't feel like having explained away or having excuses made for, because they have the rest of the world/internet for that.

Starting out lighthearted would have been fine if dudes respected it, but when they don't, it does force anyone who cares to get a little heavier on the topic than we might have liked. And that "policing" job is BORING AND A BUMMER, which is ANOTHER reason I resent men making it necessary.

one little aioli (Laurel), Sunday, 12 February 2012 17:40 (twelve years ago) link

This is now feeling awful, and even though I have typed out about 5 replies to that other thread, and then deleted them because I thought they would be interpreted the wrong way and ~cause trouble~, I still feel like I've made everything go horrible and wrong and got everything I didn't want to have to deal with, just through trying to say, in a polite and non-confrontational way, "can you please not do this thing, this is why it bothers me?"

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Sunday, 12 February 2012 17:42 (twelve years ago) link

are you on 77? there is a "girls and gays ws too" thread there. but also, you could start a woman-only thread with that post and see what happens from there? i don't think there's any such thing as a safe space on the internet or in the world for that matter, and yes, men might still be reading it, but i still think it would be cool? i'd be down; it seems like Laurel and Jenny would also be down?

horseshoe, Sunday, 12 February 2012 17:42 (twelve years ago) link

For me the point is not that content is secret, so I don't mind men reading it. I just don't want to hear their voices/opinions on every single topic esp if it is in fact about gender issues that I don't feel like having explained away or having excuses made for, because they have the rest of the world/internet for that.

Also, THIS, over and over and over again.

Laurel you always manage to express things so perfectly, and succinctly, and smartly, and also in a way that doesn't come across as blunt and sharp as I know that I do.

Please can you just keep saying them, and I will just say "cosign what Laurel said" and keep my big ugly mouth shut.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Sunday, 12 February 2012 17:43 (twelve years ago) link

I am not on 77. Given the history of 77 and stuff that went down in the Bad Old Days of ILX, I would not feel comfortable being on 77.

I know, I know, everyone can tell me "but it's not like you think it is, at all!" to their heart's content, but it's like... if you have experienced concentrated nastiness from certain people in the open part of a forum, just every instinct I have says "do not go into a closed off part with them" same as, if someone pulls your hair in the classroom with everyone there, there's no way you're gonna follow them into the toilets. It's just not a good idea.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Sunday, 12 February 2012 17:46 (twelve years ago) link

oh i didn't mean to suggest you should join 77 if you object to it!

i want to start a rolling feminism thread for anyone who wants to participate and a rolling women-only thread but i am feeling very slow and uninspired as to how to start them.

horseshoe, Sunday, 12 February 2012 17:48 (twelve years ago) link

For me the point is not that content is secret, so I don't mind men reading it. I just don't want to hear their voices/opinions on every single topic esp if it is in fact about gender issues that I don't feel like having explained away or having excuses made for, because they have the rest of the world/internet for that.

Disclaimer - I don't think anyone is wrong for feeling this way but that is something I can't relate to at all.

I want to hear everyone's voices/opinions on all topics - I think that's what makes conversations/threads interesting. If someone said the same thing about women's voices or posts on a thread or topic on ILX I'd be hugely pissed off. I just seems weirdly exclusionary and unfair to me to ask that of men in a thread.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Sunday, 12 February 2012 17:49 (twelve years ago) link

i would put neither of them on 77, if that wasn't already clear!

xp

horseshoe, Sunday, 12 February 2012 17:49 (twelve years ago) link

I do think you should start them, horseshoe, because you are so generally beloved around here it will not attract the automatic flybuzz of disapproval. :)

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Sunday, 12 February 2012 17:50 (twelve years ago) link

Just to clarify - I'm not opposed to people starting as women-only space and respect that to many people it would be a helpful and necessary thread.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Sunday, 12 February 2012 17:52 (twelve years ago) link

but....what is this thread then>?

high five delivery device (Abbbottt), Sunday, 12 February 2012 17:52 (twelve years ago) link

idk - I'm confused too

wolf kabob (ENBB), Sunday, 12 February 2012 17:56 (twelve years ago) link

slumber party ouija time

Laura Lucy Lynn (La Lechera), Sunday, 12 February 2012 17:56 (twelve years ago) link

but....what is this thread then>?

― high five delivery device (Abbbottt), Sunday, February 12, 2012 12:52 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i know! i don't know?

horseshoe, Sunday, 12 February 2012 17:57 (twelve years ago) link

One last thing - I can see enormous value in irl truly women only groups but a women only thread on ILX seems like it would be like having a women only meeting group with a bunch of men eavesdropping outside the door. I have a hard time with that idea. It sort of negates the women-only part entirely for me.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Sunday, 12 February 2012 17:58 (twelve years ago) link

Yeah, OMG, teh poor mens, it's not like they don't have ~the rest of the interweb~ to make their "go make me a sandwich" jokes or butt in for the 8 millionth time "but someone saying you're attractive is a ~compliment~!!!11" when you're trying to talk about street harassment and how it makes you feel.

It's just so awful and exclusionary that we have one tiny little thread on one tiny little messageboard where we do not automatically have to deal with that.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Sunday, 12 February 2012 17:58 (twelve years ago) link

If I know there's a group of men hoovering around and eavesdropping then I'd rather invite them into the discussion than know they're out there forming opinions but not allowed to participate. Again - and I feel the needs to say this only so I won't be attacked - I'm just trying to explain why the idea is tough for me to find value in personally.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Sunday, 12 February 2012 18:00 (twelve years ago) link

WCC - please don't start. I made a point of saying that respect that other people find it useful. I'm only trying to explain why it's tough for me to relate to that. :/

wolf kabob (ENBB), Sunday, 12 February 2012 18:01 (twelve years ago) link

the problem i have is when is the last time a male ilx poster did that. if it was like that generally i would not read or post here.

kim tim jim investor (harbl), Sunday, 12 February 2012 18:01 (twelve years ago) link

x-post I never said it was awful.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Sunday, 12 February 2012 18:02 (twelve years ago) link

For me the point is not that content is secret, so I don't mind men reading it. I just don't want to hear their voices/opinions on every single topic esp if it is in fact about gender issues that I don't feel like having explained away or having excuses made for, because they have the rest of the world/internet for that.

Starting out lighthearted would have been fine if dudes respected it, but when they don't, it does force anyone who cares to get a little heavier on the topic than we might have liked. And that "policing" job is BORING AND A BUMMER, which is ANOTHER reason I resent men making it necessary.

― one little aioli (Laurel), Sunday, February 12, 2012 5:40 PM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I just p. much agree w/ Laurel 100% here. See also: some thread on the Sandbox, I think, where I was offhandedly like "Here is a thing women experience!" and it turned into a forum for men to make sure that we were aware that women did not actually have that experience, and they should know, because they like, know some women. Gross.

disclaimer: I'm still getting all of my bookmarks together for this new login, so I'm out of the loop on a lot of threads I used to follow so I have no idea what the underlying issue to which some of you are referring is.

carl agatha, Sunday, 12 February 2012 18:03 (twelve years ago) link

Please can you not use that name. How many more times do I have to ask that?

And I was *trying* to use humour to deflect a situation, but you want to read that as me "attacking" you? This is when I can't win, either way. If I say something straight out, my sharpness is going to be read as the wrong tone. If I try to make a joke of it, that's considered the same way. Anything I do, if you're going to read it automatically as an "attack" there's not much point in continuing the conversation.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Sunday, 12 February 2012 18:04 (twelve years ago) link

It's fairly obvious from Just1ne's contributions to our many lovely clusterfuck threads that her problem is actually a personal one with me. And she is perfectly entitled to feel that way and express it however she wants, but it is fast becoming mutual.

the thing is, it's not like the reason i can't stand you is somehow outside of all this: the reason i can't stand you is BECAUSE of all this. and i'll say it again, because you probably didn't read it properly the first time: if you want people to read all your posts and interpret them as you meant them to be interpreted, it's a good idea to do the same for others.

just1n3, Sunday, 12 February 2012 18:06 (twelve years ago) link

I'm sorry! I actually just went "OMG FUCK I USED HER NAME" and came back to apologize. It was an accident. I'm really sorry.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Sunday, 12 February 2012 18:06 (twelve years ago) link

fixed

mod, Sunday, 12 February 2012 18:08 (twelve years ago) link

Thank you, mod. :)

wolf kabob (ENBB), Sunday, 12 February 2012 18:09 (twelve years ago) link

OK, thanks, mod and ENBB.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Sunday, 12 February 2012 18:14 (twelve years ago) link

this is a hard thing to admit, but one of the reasons i like the idea of women's-only spaces is that i don't trust myself to necessarily say what i'm thinking on subjects dear to my heart in the presence of men. because of some deeply-ingrained desire for male approval. i wouldn't be surprised if this is part of why, say, Amanda and harbl don't see the need for such spaces, as they don't strike me as being much afflicted with this problem.

horseshoe, Sunday, 12 February 2012 18:16 (twelve years ago) link

^^^lol things i will deny in the future if you ever cast them up to me :/

horseshoe, Sunday, 12 February 2012 18:16 (twelve years ago) link

haha no! i have a horrible time saying what i mean, especially regarding things i care about!

kim tim jim investor (harbl), Sunday, 12 February 2012 18:18 (twelve years ago) link

i guess i mean more specifically some real demureness i experience when it comes to real-talking about what i would loosely term feminist stuff because i anticipate (unfairly sometimes) a lack of recognition/understanding from men. and i want to be liked, essentially.

horseshoe, Sunday, 12 February 2012 18:20 (twelve years ago) link

(WCC, I webmailed u, in case that's not an account that you check on the reg.)

one little aioli (Laurel), Sunday, 12 February 2012 18:20 (twelve years ago) link

Me too. WRT things I wouldn't feel comfortable discussing with or around men though I think that's precisely why I don't personally find the need for a women-only thread. It's not women-only in my mind since I know men would be reading. I'm still not going to discuss or say certain things if I know they're reading but not participating. That may just be me though.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Sunday, 12 February 2012 18:21 (twelve years ago) link

x-posts It's one of those things I have had to accept for a long time. There are some people who are *never* going to like me, and there is no way I can ever make them happy, so I'm not going to try.

There are people who have had such completely opposite and different experiences that they are never going to see eye to eye, and they are never going to *grok* the other one's expectations enough to understand one another's motivations.

In some cases, one can try to bash through it and reach an acceptance or toleration, but in others, it's so mutual it's just impossible. Just accept that it is mutual, and not bash your head in by trying.

horseshoe, it's almost like the opposite for me. That I don't seek male approval (I spent so long in male dominated spaces that I became "one of the boys" for some time, we talked about this on Sandbox) but still, operating in a space with men *does* change my behaviour, sometimes in that reflexive cringe of defensiveness that is completely the result of being on the receiving end of gender based violence. Different reaction, but same problem.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Sunday, 12 February 2012 18:21 (twelve years ago) link

Lauren, actually, this account is a total sock that isn't even attached to an email address! I'll DM you a real working email address.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Sunday, 12 February 2012 18:22 (twelve years ago) link

I hear you on that, hs. My physiological cues for whose approval I care about and whose I prefer to have but don't feel the need to pine for are totally fucked up. Like dudes on ilx are my peers/bros/friends, they can like me or not like me but it's not going to come down to one post on tt so I can hack it.

But like I said in the oth thread, last week I got sick to my stomach b/c I voluntarily alienated a total stranger on the internet who is probably an asshole, but it was in the context of a dating site where I'm supposed to be working on ATTRACTING MEN, and making them WANT TO BE WITH ME, so it gave me the panics for a second. :( This is completely backwards!

But that is why w's-only space is good for me.

one little aioli (Laurel), Sunday, 12 February 2012 18:25 (twelve years ago) link

I never used to get that "sick to the stomach" feeling, I used to be FEARLESS but too much discussing stuff on the internet later, I get that sick to the stomach feeling constantly, whenever these issues come up in a space that is not all women.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Sunday, 12 February 2012 18:29 (twelve years ago) link

women-only thread, please

just1n3, Sunday, 12 February 2012 18:31 (twelve years ago) link

I am actually going to get off the internet and read a book. Funnily enough, I was going to read "Bitch" by Elizabeth Wurtzel which I took out of the library with the specific intention that it would piss me off (in an amusing way) but I'm not sure that's such a good idea now.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Sunday, 12 February 2012 18:33 (twelve years ago) link

some xposts i guess

the reason i like having a "no boys allowed" thread is because i think it is fun to have a no boys allowed thread.

it doesn't fit with my image of a 'safe space' bcz i feel like a safe space for sharing experiences is rather like horseshoe's - i believe that when women are talking about some (usually gender-related) stuff the style of discourse is different when men are present and known to be present, because people always tailor our discourse to our audience, we self-censor or adopt braggadocio or expect certain comebacks/repercussions to statements or feel uncomfortable or feel more comfortable. so in a women-only safe space, you find women shaping the discourse toward a female audience before even shaping the discussion to take into account female interlocutors. and this is a super interesting mode of discourse! and v valuable when you are dealing with stuff like sharing experiences, where the presence of a female audience, as much as the absence of a male one, often shapes the content. not always, because not all women have the same discursive style or the same aims from discussion or etc etc etc, but often.

this thread has a mixed-gender audience but the interlocutors are female, and as such it's neither fish nor fowl. i like it! let's keep it.

marcus junius ubiquitus (c sharp major), Sunday, 12 February 2012 18:35 (twelve years ago) link

That is a really brilliant post, C sharp.

When I *know* that someone dislikes me, it's really hard for me not to feel defensive. I am also aware that my defensiveness reads as aggressiveness to many people, which just reinforces the dislike. And that's an awfully vicious circle to break. So I don't know how to say, I wish that horseshoe had started the new new women only thread. I might just stay here instead.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Sunday, 12 February 2012 18:46 (twelve years ago) link

C-sharp's post was great.

I will probably just refrain from taking part in most of these discussions from now on because it's pretty clear that I'm largely alone in feeling the way I do (at least around these parts) and doing so only makes me feel really alienated and I wind up stressing myself out about them in the end. I really think it's best for me if I just post about cute animals and boils. I wind up worrying about these threads needlessly because honestly, it's the internet and who gives a fuck? Anyway, I'm really glad that you guys have that space though. I hope it continues to be useful.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Sunday, 12 February 2012 18:57 (twelve years ago) link

haha "cute animals and boils"
Sometimes I feel like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeOHEU7Ykyg
the only winning move is not to play.
Or that my energy's best focused elsewhere. I only have so much ability to get en fuego in a day, personal shortcoming, and I want to use it to create my own kooky fantasy land. I know that sounds silly but I think ultimately that's what makes me happy.

high five delivery device (Abbbottt), Sunday, 12 February 2012 19:04 (twelve years ago) link

I spent a bunch of time looking at xojane the other day, and reading this one awesome lady's posts about her struggles with body image. Which, I have told you guys my one-person-level solution to that already, is to not be a raw dog materialist and idk wait for the singularity where we achieve some bodiless consciousness event horizon? Which I know won't happen but it seems about as realistic as me ever being thin and HONESTLY a lot more fun to think about (see: fantasy land). This lady was saying she lost a bunch of weight by eating differently but now can't eat anything without having some kind of feeling or guilt attached to the food. Which (not a brag here my god I'm such a slovenly and artless weirdo) I don't have and definitely don't ever want. Like I think spending too much time around those kind of ideas will just fuck me up (not to say those ideas are bad or shouldn't be shared, god bless everyone for sharing in anything in their experiences). That's why I read cooking blogs and safety blogs and not issue blogs! Not even just feminist blogs, like years ago I read the Consumerist all the time, and had a dream about why Best Buy was just so bad and awful, really fired up emotions in the dream. I woke up and thought, I need to fucking stop reading that right now. Best Buy's being shitty, Ralph Lauren shopped a lady to have a waist smaller than her neck, I can't do anything about it, might as well enjoy life elsewhere.

high five delivery device (Abbbottt), Sunday, 12 February 2012 19:11 (twelve years ago) link

Good lord woman, I love you.

I am very sleepy and going to take a nap. Later I will respond and tell you precisely why I relate to that post so hard.

:)

wolf kabob (ENBB), Sunday, 12 February 2012 19:16 (twelve years ago) link

because it's pretty clear that I'm largely alone in feeling the way I do (at least around these parts)
not true, i said the basically same thing upthread, but i only said it once and not very emphatically.

i don't engage with things that make me feel bad (as abbott was describing) and it works out pretty well. if that means that i live in a fantasy land, fine. i live in a fantasy land. you'll know you're there because i will be there too. we can talk about music/other noises and cooking and plants and animals and tiny parts of words and the elements and how raw nature is. see you around there sometime!

Laura Lucy Lynn (La Lechera), Sunday, 12 February 2012 19:21 (twelve years ago) link

no boys allowed

Nick Chopper (Abbott), Sunday, 12 February 2012 19:29 (twelve years ago) link

My take on the matter is very different than c#s. This isn't meant to be a reflection on anyone in the current group, but I feel much more comfortable around mixed groups and men than I ever do around women. I feel less judged and more accepted by men, and I feel like I can speak my mind more around men. I really hate feeling this way, and I hope that I'm not being a self-hating woman by feeling this way, because I don't dislike women.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Sunday, 12 February 2012 19:31 (twelve years ago) link

You exercise a lot for a ghost.

Laura Lucy Lynn (La Lechera), Sunday, 12 February 2012 19:33 (twelve years ago) link

Hey guys. I was drunk when I posted, but my point was more 'what has that got to do with women's issues and this thread?' and less 'eeeeek a boy in my thread'. It seems that the latter point is all anyone's been talking about?

Personally, I've always felt that 'no boys allowed' meant 'no boys allowed', but (unless there is rapid mod clean-up I don't see) the ilx boys who have entered the thread are usually fairly respectful, and disappear again after a brief exchange, so I've been okay with it. However, the fact that I don't need a safe space doesn't mean nobody needs one, and I have nothing to lose by a thread being designated as such.

emil.y, Sunday, 12 February 2012 19:34 (twelve years ago) link

The whole fallout from the thing has actually been more uncomfortable than the initial cringe that inspired the "can you not do this, please" to be honest, so now I wish I had never said anything to start with, but isn't that always the way ILX goes?

But isn't that also the way that women are trained not to speak up, or speak out or be assertive? have the result be that saying something will generate 10x the hassle of not saying something, and pretty soon women learn to stop saying anything.

Express yourself, or bite the bullet, either way you lose.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Sunday, 12 February 2012 19:39 (twelve years ago) link

"eek there's a boy in the room" makes me think of when I lived in a girls' dorm in college and the little old janitor had to yell "MAN ON FLOOR!" before he went the door from the stairwell, every single time. Like we would all otherwise be running around in our nighties or something.

one little aioli (Laurel), Sunday, 12 February 2012 19:40 (twelve years ago) link

If we have to have a man on this thread, can it be this one kthxbye

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/74009304/Thom+Yorke+thomyorke.jpg

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Sunday, 12 February 2012 19:45 (twelve years ago) link

"MAN ON FLOOR" = there's a bit about this in Infinite Jest iirc, when Don is doing the rounds at Ennet House

This isn't meant to be a reflection on anyone in the current group, but I feel much more comfortable around mixed groups and men than I ever do around women. I feel less judged and more accepted by men, and I feel like I can speak my mind more around men. I really hate feeling this way, and I hope that I'm not being a self-hating woman by feeling this way, because I don't dislike women.

tbh, Christine, I actually feel more comfortable in mixed groups, too! Largely because I am way more worried about what women think of me than about the opinions of the men I come into contact with, whether strangers or acquaintances or friends. It's kind of why I emphasised that a women-only group talking about gender stuff doesn't mean people tailor to a "non-male" audience but to a "female" one - it isn't a neutral space and it's certainly not without performance or assumption. Although the other connotation of 'safe space' can in some cases help to mitigate that. Nevertheless I still really appreciate my experience of women-only safe spaces, because those shifts in dialogue and tone and content, and the experiences and interaction they enable, are really valuable to me.

marcus junius ubiquitus (c sharp major), Sunday, 12 February 2012 20:36 (twelve years ago) link

i don't know if it's necessary, but i just wanted to say again, i don't think safe spaces exist, though i am invested in women-only spaces.

horseshoe, Sunday, 12 February 2012 20:38 (twelve years ago) link

oh yeah, no "safe space" is actually a safe space - i don't think any is even completely successful at being a "safe space"! - that is very very worth saying. though i still think they're a useful practice.

marcus junius ubiquitus (c sharp major), Sunday, 12 February 2012 20:44 (twelve years ago) link

Yeah, it's like "safe sex" what it really means is Safer Space. But more the idea that certain problems will be at least acknowledged and an attempt made to deal with them?

Not all Safe Spaces are all female either and not all All Female spaces make any pretense at being safe. I guess I was conflating a bunch of ideas I didn't really have the right to impose on what this is, whatever it is.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Sunday, 12 February 2012 20:52 (twelve years ago) link

i mean, just because there's no such thing as a safe space doesn't mean there isn't a value in making spaces safer for various categories of people! that's why i don't even know if i should have bothered saying that; it was sort of hairsplitting.

horseshoe, Sunday, 12 February 2012 20:56 (twelve years ago) link

i think it's worth saying, though, hs, because otherwise you get this situation of e.g. "in this thing you claim is a safe space people were competitive with one another about experience-sharing and i felt unheard and unrecognised and devalued as a fellow human and as such i judge that the safe space has FAILED FOREVER and it is a terrible idea and you are all terrible" -- stating that something is a "safe space" is an agreement to try together, it's not a promise of perfection, and that has to be recognised.

marcus junius ubiquitus (c sharp major), Sunday, 12 February 2012 21:01 (twelve years ago) link

OI

marcus junius ubiquitus (c sharp major), Sunday, 12 February 2012 21:02 (twelve years ago) link

Ironically it was in the context of places that maintain a rlly strict safe(r) space policy - like Shakesville - that I was able to discover many of these things, which describe or explain mine own behaviour. Like first encountering the idea of what a "trigger" is, not I'm not just insane that I freak out and go into fight or flight panic reactions when people make e.g. rape jokes, that this is a real thing among ppl who have experienced the things I have. And going through this whole thing of learning and trying to grow beyond, and examining bad shit I've done - and seeing that there are things which explain - not justify, but *explain* - Safe Spaces have been very useful for that.

But then you have to go back into the real world and deal with that very behaviour you find literally crazy-making when you try to say "can you please not do this."

But a thread like this is rlly helpful to withdraw to. It doesn't mean everyone has to agree but it does mean that most ppl are willing to acknowledge that they are real questions or at least worthy of debate.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Sunday, 12 February 2012 21:07 (twelve years ago) link

It doesn't mean everyone has to agree but it does mean that most ppl are willing to acknowledge that they are real questions or at least worthy of debate.

^^

marcus junius ubiquitus (c sharp major), Sunday, 12 February 2012 21:10 (twelve years ago) link

I would like to go back to something Rrob said in this thread ages ago which I think dovetails in here nicely now:

"Undoing what we've been taught - to be good, to accommodate, to hold our tongues, to fear - is truly difficult and requires daily practice, i've found, and a supportive community of women and men, which, for many women, can be really hard to find. But i think we know in our bones what our power is, and when we can't express it, that blockage kills our spirits slowly, whether we know it or not. And i'm just like, at this point, fuck that. "

Also, I'm a little sad, though I dont object and I think its understandable, that this thread's turned into talking about what we should talk about, instead of discussing health issues, men, hair products and music etc like we used to on here :/

thanks to denial, I'm immortal! (Trayce), Monday, 13 February 2012 09:28 (twelve years ago) link

I am sorry if it feels like this thread has turned into "what should we talk about" - I don't actually think that's been the focus of this recent conversation so much as "should we let boys talk on this thread too" which is not the same question.

Although I suppose it's inevitable that the thread fractures and turns into half a dozen different threads focusing on different things (some for gender issues that let boys participate, some purely women only with no political meaning to be discussed) it is something that I find kind of sad.

That one of the things I found most positive about this thread and its sandbox sister was how inclusive it was -by accident or design. That because it was ~the only one~ all kinds of women ended up here, not just women who wanted to talk about nail varnish, *or* women who just wanted to talk about politics. So that there was this great mixture of subjects, both healthcare and and hair products, and, better yet, a great *mixture* of people and viewpoints - this created friction obviously but it also created an actual dynamic, diverse sharing of viewpoints so that a lot more of the female human experience has been brought to attention than you usually get to see in one place.

It's sad, Rrobyn's quote, because I sometimes feel like ILX (or maybe just the internet of the past 5 years) actually taught me to accommodate, to hold my tongue out of *fear* which was a lesson that 30 years in the ~real world~ never managed to bash my head with.

I like that quote, yet.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Monday, 13 February 2012 10:06 (twelve years ago) link

I am really quite sad over the way a lot of these discussions have gone (and are continuing to go) on ILX. I just read through the whole new gender-related thread that Emily started and feel like I have a lot to say but am too afraid to post there now. Sorry - I'm just ranting and think I should stick to what I said yesterday about not participating. What WCC said itt about having those discussions with genderless socks would be a pretty interesting experiment though, that's for sure.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Monday, 13 February 2012 20:50 (twelve years ago) link

That's too bad, because I feel like we're finally getting somewhere. First it is necessary to stop letting people say, "Won't someone please think of all the nice men I personally know who didn't individually choose to be so privileged" as if that's an actual contribution to a conversation about gender, though.

one little aioli (Laurel), Monday, 13 February 2012 20:58 (twelve years ago) link

Eh? I didn't say that, someone else did. Though it would be pretty hilarious - and how quickly (or not?) I think ppl would suss out the gender if not the identity. Discussion OF gender is the one place where gender of poster becomes pretty salient in a way it doesnt in discussion of film or music or food.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Monday, 13 February 2012 21:07 (twelve years ago) link

Oh - it was Zora, sorry.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Monday, 13 February 2012 21:17 (twelve years ago) link

I don't mind being mistaken for Zora, she's v v clever. :)

I'm feeling a real desire right now to talk about hair dye or something v v stereotypically feminine, just to kind of try to balance. I've been trying to grow out the super red but I might have to do job interviews soonish and should probably at least try to normalise my hair to 1 colour red instead of about 6.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Monday, 13 February 2012 21:23 (twelve years ago) link

Yeah well that'll teach me. Just when I feel I need the company of mine own sex as reassurance, putting on some fake display of "femininity" fools no one. Back to my lair.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Monday, 13 February 2012 22:24 (twelve years ago) link

it's been a while since i dyed my hair, but yeah, normalizing when you are in a position when you're supposed to look "normal" is prob. a good idea. good luck!

sarahell, Monday, 13 February 2012 22:29 (twelve years ago) link

like i literally stopped dying my hair around the age when other women my age started going gray, and dying one's hair took on different connotations than doing so as a teen or in one's 20s.

sarahell, Monday, 13 February 2012 22:30 (twelve years ago) link

you might want to chalk it up to end-of-workday work push instead of assuming we don't care!

i've recently become a fan of hair dye, namely this 'semi-permanent gloss' thing that my hair stylist uses for my hair - it fades out really slowly and doesn't leave roots - kind of amazing! i recommend! and possibly okay to put over multi-coloured hair because it's less of a chemical process? prob check with hair stylist on that one, as obv i'm no expert!
xps

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Monday, 13 February 2012 22:30 (twelve years ago) link

my work day is just beginning!

sarahell, Monday, 13 February 2012 22:31 (twelve years ago) link

despite being really very interested in reading what everyone has to say on the massively complex topic of discussion here recently on this thread and the new other threads in the past couple of days, i haven't been able to dive in, as i've been busy and would like to give the topic more of my attention/focus than i've been able.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Monday, 13 February 2012 22:33 (twelve years ago) link

xp - time zones oh yeah those! lol i was being time-zone exclusionary

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Monday, 13 February 2012 22:34 (twelve years ago) link

nah, i just don't have a typical 9 to 5.

sarahell, Monday, 13 February 2012 22:34 (twelve years ago) link

I'm unemployed and in a different timezone so I dunno when ppl are at!

Actually a non permanent gloss is a good idea for an interview but I should probably test it beforehand.

And yeah I get what you mean Sarahel, I grew my hair out in my mid 30s to see what my natural colour was just as I was getting some treys - but I just got bored of hair that was always the same.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Monday, 13 February 2012 22:34 (twelve years ago) link

EST rules PST drools! ;)
xp

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Monday, 13 February 2012 22:35 (twelve years ago) link

Treys? Frets!

FFS iPhone GREYS.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Monday, 13 February 2012 22:36 (twelve years ago) link

ha, i was just thinking about that yesterday, too though - looking at Whole Foods' shelf of hair dyes, thinking i'm maybe bored of my hair color.

sarahell, Monday, 13 February 2012 22:38 (twelve years ago) link

A friend of mine bleached her punk-rock spike job a messy whitish-grey blonde. Kind of jeal just for the DGAF-ness of it.

one little aioli (Laurel), Monday, 13 February 2012 22:40 (twelve years ago) link

I have 2 whole boxes of super punky red which I was using to do occasional streaks but making my whole hair that colour, much as I'm tempted, would be a Very Bad Idea for interviewing.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Monday, 13 February 2012 22:54 (twelve years ago) link

I also have still not had a haircut either despite saying forever that I was gonna do something about the straggle. I have no right to laugh at Thom Yorke's poor hair choices really.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Monday, 13 February 2012 22:56 (twelve years ago) link

i dyed my hair a much brighter color recently and wouldn't go back unless someone ripped the hair dye from my dead desiccated hands. it's the little boost i need to make it through my otherwise dull days.

also recommended: wigs! don't knock it/dismiss it til you've tried it.

Laura Lucy Lynn (La Lechera), Monday, 13 February 2012 23:44 (twelve years ago) link

wigs are awesome! I got two in the past couple years: one this totally OTT bright red beehive that I bought for a musical project, and another chin-length black one.

sarahell, Monday, 13 February 2012 23:46 (twelve years ago) link

I was really really into wigs in my early 30s, I had some great ones - but I find them too warm and sweaty for use any more.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Monday, 13 February 2012 23:52 (twelve years ago) link

you also have beautiful long hair, iirc? i don't have a lot of hair, so i can wear it short or wear it short. or wear a wig. i would like an expensive nice one someday, but for now the beverly johnson collection will have to do.

Laura Lucy Lynn (La Lechera), Monday, 13 February 2012 23:53 (twelve years ago) link

I have v v long hair but it's too ragged (I don't trim it often enough) to be "beautiful" hair. Its length is mainly due to laziness and fear of bad haircuts.

I used to have shorter hair, and had all kinds of exotic wigs for going onstage - it's nice to have the variety of short hair / long wigs. Wigs are so much fun to play with, especially when you're performing - as it sounds like you've been experiencing!

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Monday, 13 February 2012 23:58 (twelve years ago) link

yeah
it was really fun!

Laura Lucy Lynn (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 00:00 (twelve years ago) link

I found it was almost like wearing a mask (without compromising yr ability to perform w yr face) so it gave me the freedom to be much bolder / act differently. Did you find it made it easier?

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 00:03 (twelve years ago) link

Hard to know since I don't really have any reference point tbh! It definitely felt different than standing up in front of a class.

Laura Lucy Lynn (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 00:04 (twelve years ago) link

my hair is really thick, and i realized that there are things that I can't get away with with a wig (because the hair is thinner/there is less of it) than w/my natural hair.

sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 00:06 (twelve years ago) link

Are you gonna try to do anything like that again?

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 00:06 (twelve years ago) link

is that a question for me or LL?

sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 00:07 (twelve years ago) link

the project i got the beehive wig for was kinda a commentary/reaction to the way some guys in electronic music/noise "rock out" with their laptops, which has always struck me as kinda funny, because I associate laptops with white collar labor, and a bit at odds with the classically working class/blue collar performance of "rocking out"

sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 00:11 (twelve years ago) link

LL - sorry; iPhone doesn't warn you of x-posts!

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 00:12 (twelve years ago) link

I'm going to see what happens. I don't do well if I plan too much because I am contrary and hate being told what to do, even by myself.

Laura Lucy Lynn (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 00:12 (twelve years ago) link

Best to not make too many plans, lest I grow sick of them long before the time comes to execute the plan.

Laura Lucy Lynn (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 00:13 (twelve years ago) link

I've got a serious problem applying hair dye, I can't seem to get it even all over. Does it get easier with practice? Or is there a dye out there that I can apply in the same way as shampoo?

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 00:13 (twelve years ago) link

Another x-post but sarahel that sounds awesome and actually v funny - rocking out w laptop is always deeply strange

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 00:13 (twelve years ago) link

most of the permanent dyes can be applied like shampoo.

sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 00:15 (twelve years ago) link

CGLDI there are, at least in London I've seen them, mousse hairdyes you apply like a shampoo. I haven't tried one yet cause I like streaky dyejobs.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 00:16 (twelve years ago) link

I don't use permanent dye, though.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 00:18 (twelve years ago) link

it's not really that hard if you approach methodically and in sections. divide the hair, use a comb with a pointy handle to create thin layers on which to apply dye, then massage in at the end. i guess it's harder if your hair is really thick, but i don't have any experience with that. i've been dyeing my hair myself on and off since i was 15.

Laura Lucy Lynn (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 00:18 (twelve years ago) link

I would love to try wigs but I think I have too much hair to fit under them. My only experience is cheapo Halloween wigs so maybe it would work better with higher quality wigs.

tokyo rosemary, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 00:19 (twelve years ago) link

My hair is very, very thin, and I've only been dying my hair for about three months.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 00:23 (twelve years ago) link

xp LL - with really thick hair, the process is the same, you just have more layers and you end up using more of the dye. I'd use this cheap-o beauty supply store brush to make sure i got a decent amount of dye on the lower layers.

sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 00:25 (twelve years ago) link

I figured, I'm just saying that it might be a little more time consuming the more hair you have.
Anyway, the directions on the box are pretty easy to follow. A little practice and it'll be second nature although it will always be a pain in the ass.

Laura Lucy Lynn (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 00:27 (twelve years ago) link

Assuming that your ass is located on top of your head, like mine is.

Laura Lucy Lynn (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 00:27 (twelve years ago) link

iirc - the thickness of one's hair isn't the biggest challenge, but rather, the length. It's easier to miss a spot with long hair

sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 00:28 (twelve years ago) link

did anyone else on here ever have a Manic Panic blue disaster?

sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 00:29 (twelve years ago) link

I had a Manic Panic Deep Tulip disaster, does that count?

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 00:31 (twelve years ago) link

probably, if it involved the dye demonstrating how you physically inhabit your living space: there was a blue spot where I'd lean my head against the wall in bed while reading, a blue spot on the earpiece of the phone, a blue spot on the closet door where i'd lean to put on tights ...

sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 00:33 (twelve years ago) link

i think i was in some class where we were reading a bunch of gothic/romantic fiction and the blue spots felt like the proverbial stain or scarlet letter, though they were blue.

sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 00:36 (twelve years ago) link

Permanent dye is actually kind of good for thin hair because the ammonia and etc swell the hair shaft (at least for a while) so your hair looks thicker and glossier for a week or so.

thanks to denial, I'm immortal! (Trayce), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 00:37 (twelve years ago) link

surely if it's a temporary dye you can just mix it with conditioner and then apply as if it were conditioner? more volume of stuff to put in your hair = more chance of getting coverage all over.

admittedly in my years of dying i was never very methodical - i was v proud of one look, where as the pink faded out to reveal shonky blonde there became visible slightly greenish patches, the whole thing something akin to an unripe white peach, i thought.

marcus junius ubiquitus (c sharp major), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 00:55 (twelve years ago) link

I had a couple manic panic disasters but the most memorable was when I thought it would be a good idea if my best friend died mine for me while we were both stoned and I sat in the bath tub. The entire bathtub was stained fuchsia and my hair was horribly two-toned for about a week until I could find some more.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 01:00 (twelve years ago) link

Oh and my parents were not pleased about either the state of the bathtub or my hair iirc.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 01:00 (twelve years ago) link

I am trying to decide what to do with mine. I want to go red but I think I'm just bored and the upkeep is hard work. I think I'll probably just leave it as is. I haven't had color in it in over a year but it turns out that my natural color sort of looks like highlights anyway. I'd been dying it for so long I really didn't know what it was anymore.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 01:01 (twelve years ago) link

dyed not died, obv

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 01:02 (twelve years ago) link

I'd love to go back to all red, as well, but i'd have to grow it out heaps as its all black and stripping black dye out is REALLY bad for ones hair and a PITA to boot (took 2 hours last time I had it done and hurt like hell).

thanks to denial, I'm immortal! (Trayce), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 01:04 (twelve years ago) link

Maybe I'll just start dying my roots red and have weird half-tone hair for six months lol

thanks to denial, I'm immortal! (Trayce), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 01:04 (twelve years ago) link

Christine, what sort of applicator does the dye come with? A bottle with a pointed tip? Most semis I've used have that type, I just use the point to section my hair, always starting at the front. Pro tip: apply moisturizer or vaseline etc to your ears, nape of the neck, face near the hairline (being careful not to get it on your hair) - it'll prevent staining of your skin. And I always put on a disposable shower cap while it processes.

just1n3, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 01:26 (twelve years ago) link

Wigs are great, I had a blue one I liked to wear during ~~altered consciousness~~. It just makes everything more performative & fun so the two together were a good fit.

I have been dying my hair almost-black with a weird bronze finish. It doesn't make a lick of goddamn sense and I love it. I am trying to embrace being eccentric in safe ways.

high five delivery device (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 01:49 (twelve years ago) link

OTHER NEWS OF FUN:
• I decided birthday party #29 is going to be occult themed. I stole the idea from someone else. Tarot readings and a cake shaped like Baphomet.
• Bought some good-looking underwears (good-looking = doesn't have holes eaten in it from low pH vaginal discharge, THAT'S RIGHT "THIS" IS HOW "WOMEN" "TALK")
• Bought tickets to a JOhn Hodgman show and got invited to a sculpture party the same night. I hope that doesn't mean I am going to get REVERSE WINTER'S TALED.

high five delivery device (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 01:55 (twelve years ago) link

good-looking = doesn't have holes eaten in it from low pH vaginal discharge

i never knew about this! thank you for solving my eternal mystery of where the holes come from, for reals!

sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 02:40 (twelve years ago) link

One more thing, I bought some flowers for myself to celebrate how awesome I am solo (everyone seems to be worried I will have Valentine's blues so I am preempting it). The flowers are the worst garish Minnesota Vikings colors. I did my new evening routine of a vigorous stroll to a library (a library in the middle of the park!) to return a book. I had forgotten I had bought the flowers and when I opened my door, there they were clashing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC_6gtTd9Rg
"Hey, me, I'm the right man for you."

high five delivery device (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 02:49 (twelve years ago) link

Everyone should by flowers for themselves all the time imo.

How long are you guys keeping these underwear? I have some holey pairs but that's because I have a small monster named Benson so seems to think that stealing and then chewing on underwear is the best game ever. :/

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 02:51 (twelve years ago) link

BUY

dammit

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 02:52 (twelve years ago) link

One of the pairs was like seven years old. *_*
But most a 1-2 years old.

high five delivery device (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 02:52 (twelve years ago) link

4-5 yrs? i honestly don't "rc"

sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 02:53 (twelve years ago) link

I usually get the VS 5 for $25 deal a couple times a year so they don't get too worn out looking.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 02:55 (twelve years ago) link

Or because the dog has chewed through like 1/2 of them by then. lol.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 02:55 (twelve years ago) link

The ones that really fall apart fast (1-2 years) are the cheap cotton ones from Target. They are also cute and affordable so I keep buying them. Not sure there's really some kind of craftsmanship investment underwear I could buy even if I did have the money, so this works for me. I think my parents' garments hold together forever but that's because polyester + sacred.

high five delivery device (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 02:56 (twelve years ago) link

MAGIC UNDERWEAR!!

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 02:57 (twelve years ago) link

The VS ones are cheap cotton and I'm sure by 1-2 years they'd be pretty much disintegrated.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 02:58 (twelve years ago) link

garments are made of polyester?!!

sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 02:58 (twelve years ago) link

i always figured they were cotton or lol, silk

sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 02:58 (twelve years ago) link

good-looking = doesn't have holes eaten in it from low pH vaginal discharge

i never knew about this! thank you for solving my eternal mystery of where the holes come from, for reals!

I did always wonder about this too! In my case its bleached out black fabric rather than always holes, but still! WTF causes it? I feel like some kind of acidic superhero. CAUSTIC GAL.

thanks to denial, I'm immortal! (Trayce), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 02:59 (twelve years ago) link

Its also embarrasing when you fling off yr jocks around a guy and it looks like something weird exploded in your pants :/ ITS JUST THE FABRIC DYE I SWEAR.

thanks to denial, I'm immortal! (Trayce), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:00 (twelve years ago) link

silk garments! I'd might still be Mormon. SOunds luxurious (disregarding silk's powerful insulation properties).

high five delivery device (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:00 (twelve years ago) link

Its also embarrasing when you fling off yr jocks around a guy and it looks like something weird exploded in your pants :/ ITS JUST THE FABRIC DYE I SWEAR.

what does this mean???

high five delivery device (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:00 (twelve years ago) link

the thing with the silkworms was one of my fave bits of historical Mormon absurdity

sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:01 (twelve years ago) link

ohhh man I had to google to even see what you mean. I guess it's cute that JS accidentally built all those anachronisms into his KJV fanfic but I was never able to give a fuck about whether or not horses were in South America or if it were really possibly for Jews to cross the ocean in frisbee boats lit by glow rocks.

high five delivery device (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:04 (twelve years ago) link

or...what are you talking about.

high five delivery device (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:05 (twelve years ago) link

wasn't this back in pioneer Utah days? Brigham Young decided that the mormons should make their own cloth, so they imported a bunch of silkworms, so that they could make their own silk, but the silkworms would totally freak out when there were thunderstorms, so they had to make protective coverings or something for the silkworm cages? i could be misremembering like a motherfucker.

sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:10 (twelve years ago) link

I will admit the year of seminary on Doctrine & Covenants/church history was the year I mostly skipped class to hang out in my friends' guitar class, in which they did not play the guitar, but made chair ziggurats.

high five delivery device (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:11 (twelve years ago) link

i think the person who told me that story spent most of that year of seminary stoend

sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:12 (twelve years ago) link

what does this mean???

Which bit haha now I feel awkward! I mean the ph level thing bleaches stuff and on black fabric, that can cause it to.. well, basically it can go red. So you know. Ugh.

thanks to denial, I'm immortal! (Trayce), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:15 (twelve years ago) link

I didnt mean I spontaneously eject ink from my ladyparts like some kind of manga bizarro robot.

thanks to denial, I'm immortal! (Trayce), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:16 (twelve years ago) link

...I already regret typing that haw.

thanks to denial, I'm immortal! (Trayce), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:16 (twelve years ago) link

lol trayce

JuliaA, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:17 (twelve years ago) link

oh yeah - reddish/orangey? yeah

sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:17 (twelve years ago) link

Ok I did not get the Australian bits.
Lord knows I have plenty of ugly brown skidmarks on my lighter underwear.
The first guy I had sex with saw my underwear and asked me if I shit my pants regularly. What a match made in heaven.

high five delivery device (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:18 (twelve years ago) link

The skidmarks are from menses even though I guess that's a pooping term.
Girl talk!!!

high five delivery device (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:19 (twelve years ago) link

geez - i consider myself lucky that none of the guys i've been with paid any attention to my underpants once they were removed.

sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:20 (twelve years ago) link

Oh! I assumed ppl would know what jocks were haw. Undies.

thanks to denial, I'm immortal! (Trayce), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:21 (twelve years ago) link

See, those are the period underwear that only get worn during certain days/times.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:21 (twelve years ago) link

i figured jocks was short for jockeys (the makers of underwear)! I get aussieisms!

sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:22 (twelve years ago) link

xps

i prefer to have black underwear. i bleed a lot, and irregularly. i hate bloodstains. tho peroxide works pretty well.

also, ecover stain treater. i use a ton of it.

JuliaA, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:23 (twelve years ago) link

I can solve this problem for you all!

one little aioli (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:25 (twelve years ago) link

You guys all have great ideas. I started using pantiliners. It helps but I still fuck up.

high five delivery device (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:25 (twelve years ago) link

Laurel, hit me!

high five delivery device (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:25 (twelve years ago) link

as long as the solution isn't a swiffer

sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:32 (twelve years ago) link

Er no, it's not wearing underwear. May be more helpful to some than others.

one little aioli (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:34 (twelve years ago) link

But I only have the one chemise, I can't bleed onto it!

high five delivery device (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:34 (twelve years ago) link

Allowing for individual variation, normal woman parts are pretty good at keeping "in" things in, I find. Not including periods, obv.

one little aioli (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:35 (twelve years ago) link

Sorry, Abbs! Not that exciting.

one little aioli (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:35 (twelve years ago) link

OK - question for the non underpants wearing folk. DO you not wear underwear with anything? I mean even when you're wearing jeans? I had to go commando with jeans recently in an emergency situation (forgot to pack any underwear for 3 days away) and it was so damn uncomfortable. I spent the whole day wondering how commando favoring folk did it tbh.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:36 (twelve years ago) link

Nope! Not even with jeans. I wore underpants w jeans the other day because I was going to TRY ON jeans and I am not a disgusting savage, and I was shocked at how uncomfortable it was. Also that it gave me panty lines. Now THAT'S gross.

one little aioli (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:38 (twelve years ago) link

Every time I have worn jeans without underwear, it was clear that afterwards the jeans wanted washing. Maybe it's a YMMV thing.

high five delivery device (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:38 (twelve years ago) link

every time i've gone w/out underwear (on the rare occasion) i've ended up with skin rashes.

sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:39 (twelve years ago) link

xposts - haha I know you hate panty lines something fierce. I don't mind them tbh. Man, I just - well the crotch seams were all rubbing up in places they didn't belong! Maybe I'm just not used to it. I like underwear esp cute underwear so going without hasn't really ever occurred to me as a regular thing.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:40 (twelve years ago) link

I should say, in the summer I just wear stockings cut into, like, bike shorts every single day, so it functions as underwear. But I can't stand the lines and the straps and elastics cutting into me on normal underpants.

one little aioli (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:41 (twelve years ago) link

Also in the half year or so I was trying to go without underwear, I was clearly just doing it wrong. Like I'd ride a bike in a dress and then fall off the bike and of course feel gravely embarrassed and exposed. Or get lock out of my own house (once again in a skirt) drunk in the middle of the night and decide to lay down in the soil and then imagine how close I am to that which creepeth in the soil with no underwear layer to protect me. I guess they are just talismanic to me in their power to keep me from feeling exposed.

high five delivery device (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:43 (twelve years ago) link

There was a while when I meant to buy a lot of pairs of silky tap pants instead of briefs-style, but you can't stuff tap pants into jeans anyway.

one little aioli (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:44 (twelve years ago) link

lol, aww

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:44 (twelve years ago) link

tap pants are cute

I have an awesome pair of ruffle butt underwear but you can't really wear them under anything which makes me sad because I'd get 6 more pairs and wear them every day if I could. They'd make the days better.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:45 (twelve years ago) link

You could wear them under swirly 50s skirts for dancing!

thanks to denial, I'm immortal! (Trayce), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:46 (twelve years ago) link

ok now i'm imagining Benson in ruffle butt underwear and it's making me lol

sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:46 (twelve years ago) link

i wear men's boxer briefs sometimes instead of undies because i like the seams better. but then there's that extra fabric in the front. (boyshorts fit me horribly)

just bought some new 'hipster' undies and i wear them inside out because arrrrgh the seams i hate them.

JuliaA, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:47 (twelve years ago) link

I just googled ruffle butt underwear and, I shit you not, one of results on the first page is of a pug in pink ones! I can't link it though because it's a protected flickr pic but lol.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:47 (twelve years ago) link

You could wear them under swirly 50s skirts for dancing!

― thanks to denial, I'm immortal! (Trayce), Monday, February 13, 2012 10:46 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I could but I don't own any. Maybe I should get some and then the get more underwear to match.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:48 (twelve years ago) link

one of results on the first page is of a pug in pink ones!

i gis-ed just now and oh wow ...it's face is turned away from the camera though

sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:50 (twelve years ago) link

probably in shame because its owners are making it wear pink stain ruffled underwear and posting the results online tbh

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:51 (twelve years ago) link

maybe it's so the pug can't eat them?

sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:53 (twelve years ago) link

"pink stain" - thread appropriate typo

lol, maybe

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 03:54 (twelve years ago) link

laurel is blowing my mind

i REALLY like these super cheapo (fruit of the loom, i think?) big ol' grandma undies from target. they cover your butt completely, so you don't get them riding up, and the seams are flat, so you don't get VPL (which i also hate). i mean, they're about as unsexy/uncute as it's possible to get, but i'd rather be comfortable.

just1n3, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 04:30 (twelve years ago) link

lolll abbott! Bike riding necessitates underwear imo, call me boring. I only go commando a while camping or at someone's cottage in summer.

For years and years, like 15 yrs, I
mostly only wore elita thong underwear and similar in fancier styles bc they solved the constant riding-up issue. but in the past few years I've gone back to bikini briefs, generally seamless or near-seamless, and there's little to no riding-up issue. Maybe my butt has changed. Well, I'm sure it has, such is life.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 04:47 (twelve years ago) link

srsly, I need to do more squats and lunges

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 04:54 (twelve years ago) link

maybe my butt has changed

horseshoe, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 04:55 (twelve years ago) link

This thread took an awesome turn while I was asleep + this is one of those things I am SO GLAD you have discussed bcuz even though I wear indestructible black M&S battlepants which don't really fall apart the crotchal bleaching has been an endless source of mystery and perplexment to me.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 10:07 (twelve years ago) link

I am rlly quite relieved this is all girl, still though I live in fear that "flinging jocks at head" and pants chewing pugs and crotchal bleaching will end up on some o_0 archive somewhere.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 10:08 (twelve years ago) link

Heyyy I never said I fling the jocks at anyones head! ;) That would be just rude. Unless he was some kind of dodgy pantysniffer in which case... eww.

Lindsay NAGL (Trayce), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 10:22 (twelve years ago) link

Sorry I'm still all flooded with woman testosterone and thinking violently! ;)

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 10:40 (twelve years ago) link

idk I have said some TRULY REVOLTING shit on ilx and it never got o_O'ed
But someone did start one of those RONG threds with a post where I said Led Zeppelin is awful and marijuana is a waste of money
YMMV

high five delivery device (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 14:32 (twelve years ago) link

tbh you were rong about LZ there but right abour weed imo

I'm pretty sure there were a lot of raised eyebrows among those reading this thread last night but who gives a shit?

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 14:44 (twelve years ago) link

But you are one of those lovely, gracious girls who are always pleasant and nice and friendly to everyone (even sometimes, I suspect, at what cost I don't know but I suspect it can be emotionally high) - this is not a diss by the way, Abbs, it's one of the things that I truly admire about you, that you're able to keep a Face which reads as positive, even in the face of grossness.

While I am one of those sharp, bitchy, spiky girls who believes in "being true to herself" so much that I cannot be bothered with showing ~nice face~ to ppl I read as "attacking" (YMMV) me or ppl like me or behaving in a way I read as Just Not Cricket.

So you being gross is read as an extension of cute or childlike or innocent, while me being gross is read as evidence that I truly am a disgusting, gross, hysterical crazy bitch.

I'm not saying this is the truuuuuuuuuuth, but this is how it often subjectively feels from inside my head

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 14:56 (twelve years ago) link

aw, there there
I don't think you're gross.

high five delivery device (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 14:58 (twelve years ago) link

^^^not meant to sound condescending fwiw
also lol at me saying that after you call me nice 'n' neotenic

high five delivery device (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 14:59 (twelve years ago) link

Ha! It's not that I'm gross. It's just that when I am lewd, it's read as supporting other character defects (let's not even open the vagina can-o-worms again) in a way that women who are able to maintain ~nice face~ will not face reproval for lewdness or gross outs.

Anyway this is making me uncomfortable bcuz it reads like "woe is me" whining when it's just commentary.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:05 (twelve years ago) link

I have nice-face problems. I'm trying to not have them. We'll see how that goes and if you all hate me in 8 months (or less).

one little aioli (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:06 (twelve years ago) link

happy st-vagina's day!!!

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:09 (twelve years ago) link

i had a dream the other day about a b&w poster that was a women-and-sex-positive version of wall-o-ginas, with something witty written at the bottom

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:11 (twelve years ago) link

or maybe this actually exists?

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:11 (twelve years ago) link

We could kickstart to make that happen.

one little aioli (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:12 (twelve years ago) link

It's weird, it's like "maintaining ~nice face~" costs me such a high emotional drain - it's not a natural or easy thing for me - that I sometimes fear I can act resentful or suspicious towards women for whom it *appears* easy? It kind of took me up until $h1mura Curv3s to really understand or try to move beyond that suspicion, it's something I'm still working on.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:12 (twelve years ago) link

If you can remember what the "something witty" was from your dream. Or Lechera could write/assemble something for us by repurposing romances, which I think is an excellent use for them.

one little aioli (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:13 (twelve years ago) link

WCC I hear you, I used to find a certain kind of nice-face exhausting. I've gotten past that a little bit now and it's just boring to me, but I can be smiley and stuff without really looking at people, without really seeing them or caring about them.

Maybe I have misjudged nice-face all these years as a distancing tool? It can put a nice fuzzy screen between you and other people, at least from your own point of view.

one little aioli (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:15 (twelve years ago) link

Can you explain a little more what you mean about "nice-face" please?

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:18 (twelve years ago) link

Being nice and pretending to care about what people are saying to you when you don't feel nice and don't care, that's my personal definition.

one little aioli (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:19 (twelve years ago) link

Or that you don't violently disagree with whatever they just said, that kind of thing.

one little aioli (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:20 (twelve years ago) link

Yeah, I just meant a more specific example or do you mean just as a general attitude?

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:21 (twelve years ago) link

It's not even about maintaining nice-face as a distancing tool (bcuz my natural face is anthropologist on mars "what's this? What's this?" which might also be exhausting) but that thing of maintaining nice-face in reaction to awfulness where my first reaction is to kick v v hard BACK like a tantruming schoolgirl from St Trinians (so much for the myth of women not being violent)

But I suppose there's protective nice-face as a kind of distancing nice-face.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:23 (twelve years ago) link

Always being pleasant and consiliatory (consiliating?) and feminine and cheerful and upbeat and responding in a gracious and non-aggressive and non-defensive manner and being sweet and polite as a matter of course, even when -especially when- ppl are being rude or aggressive or patronising or insulting or saying things you know and can prove to be total bullshit.

That's ~nice face~ I guess?

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:29 (twelve years ago) link

Examples: every single time I do anything vaguely related to Scottish dance except for our normal rehearsals. Also when I come to work and have to be polite around colleagues, also when I go home to MI and have to see anyone except my own family, any time it's required that I be "properly respectful" of authority for its own sake when it hasn't proven anything to me, and so on.

one little aioli (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:29 (twelve years ago) link

I don't always hate being nice-face sometimes when it's my choice to do so, but I abhor HAVING to do it.

one little aioli (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:31 (twelve years ago) link

It's a weird thing bcuz it is totally a "feminine virtue"

And it's one of those strengths I can totally admire in ppl who can do it and bd diplomatic in situations where I'd like to kick in someone's teeth.

But at the same time, it strikes me as *exhausting* to have to do, and I'm a little afraid of the falseness of it, like it's a mask but it's also a kind of lying.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:32 (twelve years ago) link

Yes, that's an important aspect that makes me squirmy that I've never put my finger on--thank you for that. It's a lie. I feel like a lie.

one little aioli (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:34 (twelve years ago) link

Like, I'mslightly afraid of women who can lie that easily. Are they also lying to me?

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:34 (twelve years ago) link

ppl are being rude or aggressive or patronising or insulting or saying things you know and can prove to be total bullshit

OK, yes. This all makes sense and it is awful and exhausting and a lie during the rare occasions that I feel the need to put it on. Thankfully, I don't think that I really encounter these situations that often in real life, or at least ones remarkable enough so that I get actively upset. I have mentioned this before but I think that I choose what to get heated over pretty carefully and willfully ignore some things that might bother others more because I'd find the alternative too trying. I think I'm pretty lucky in that my current and last several jobs have been in really women-friendly environments so that it's not something I generally encounter at work on a regular basis. I don't know how I'd react if it was tbh.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:44 (twelve years ago) link

I have...a couple of friends who are nice-face all the time, because they are SO controlled w themselves, and v private people. It's difficult not to be neurotic about how they perceive me because I'm sure I'm never getting anything unfiltered from them. As long as they keep calling me to hang out or w/e I can only figure that they probably like me? But there's some internal algebra where I have to decide that the stress of never knowing where I REALLY stand w them is worth it to have their friendship.

If that math doesn't work out, though...it would kinda be over.

one little aioli (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:44 (twelve years ago) link

I think a lot of times people think that I am putting on a nice face when really, that is just my face. I don't hate people, for the most part. They can be exasperating, but most of the time I just find them kind of weird and interesting. Talking to someone I don't like (I do this a lot at work, like most people) is an opportunity to study that person, which makes it more interesting/easier for me emotionally.

I've never thought of this as lying at all. Lying is false enthusiasm and "I love your belt" (when it means "Look at that hideous belt")

Laura Lucy Lynn (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:45 (twelve years ago) link

i do this nice-face thing, i think. or at any rate i am often described as "nice" by people who i am acquainted with. i'm not saying it's not worth examining, but i think part of the reason i do it is to keep people at a distance until i'm sure i don't want to keep them at a distance.

horseshoe, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:48 (twelve years ago) link

i meant, people i'm acquainted with as opposed to friends.

horseshoe, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:49 (twelve years ago) link

I think a lot of times people think that I am putting on a nice face when really, that is just my face.

This too a little bit for me, tbh.

I have had to do this a lot with people I actively disliked at previous jobs but that was mostly when I was waitressing and/or bartending and was it was largely awful.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:49 (twelve years ago) link

I think I'm pretty lucky in that my current and last several jobs have been in really women-friendly environments so that it's not something I generally encounter at work on a regular basis. I don't know how I'd react if it was tbh.

I don't know that I feel this way most of the time b/c things aren't "woman-friendly", most of the time I'm just bored with the people and with whatever I have to pretend to be doing, and I feel disagreeable, and the person I'm talking to doesn't really want to know me, they don't want to know what I think and they wouldn't like it anyway, so it's better to make what I feel like is the "real" Laurel very small inside and not let her out.

one little aioli (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:50 (twelve years ago) link

I'm so sad that this is one of the threads that I can't get to stay bookmarked…

I had no idea about low pH vaginal discharge (as in, this doesn't happen to me and I did not know it happened to others). That is amazing.

Oh but menstrual stain pro tip - take your jocks (<3) into the shower with you. Throw them on the floor while you do your thing, then wash out the stain with soap before you get out. Cheap and easy.

Also you to throw out a plug for cloth panty liners.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 16:06 (twelve years ago) link

I think a lot of times people think that I am putting on a nice face when really, that is just my face. I don't hate people, for the most part. They can be exasperating, but most of the time I just find them kind of weird and interesting.

i am a bit similar - i find it hard to hate people, and i am in general 'nice'. but i think for me nice-face is mostly just what's less exhausting than the alternative. for me, engaging with someone means giving something of myself away. If they're someone i like, fine, but if it's someone who annoys me who i don't have any investment in then giving them more than politeness, even if it's anger, is draining and wasteful.

dove cale (c sharp major), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 16:08 (twelve years ago) link

That's by Kate Beaton, by the way.

emil.y, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 16:11 (twelve years ago) link

<3 kate beaton <3

dove cale (c sharp major), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 16:12 (twelve years ago) link

xps because i am slow.

willfully ignore some things that might bother others more because I'd find the alternative too trying.

i do this a lot but then i'm bothered by it later. a lot of the time i just don't have enough time to process what's bothering me so i do a default nice-face. and then when i've thought about things, i get really irritated.

i wish i could be quicker to react to things. (and then decide whether or not to keep my reaction to myself!)

but interacting with people can be really exhausting.

my family comes to mind with a lot of this.

<i>take your jocks (<3) into the shower with you. Throw them on the floor while you do your thing, then wash out the stain with soap before you get out.</i>

but hot water could set the stain! i always wash blood in cold water.

JuliaA, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 16:13 (twelve years ago) link

my family comes to mind with a lot of this

ha. yes.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 16:14 (twelve years ago) link

yeah, i'm with Julia, cold water and soap (and what the hairpin's clean person described as 'fabric frottage')

dove cale (c sharp major), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 16:16 (twelve years ago) link

my family are also the ppl who tell me i'm overreacting EVERY TIME i try to assert myself about something i find incredibly offensive. arrrgh.

i am trying to hone my abrupt-subject-changing skillz in the hopes of avoiding some of this.

JuliaA, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 16:18 (twelve years ago) link

xp re Kate Beaton - Oh god, I saw that on twitter and was just like YES.

The shower water isn't hot enough to set the stain, plus you're using soap to wash it out right away so there's not enough time for it to set.

I guess if you take boiling 1 hour showers this might not work.

Or maybe I have unusually soluble menstrual blood.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 16:18 (twelve years ago) link

This is like that time that I washed my bra by wearing it in the shower. Really I'm all for all forms of this kind of thing.

one little aioli (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 16:31 (twelve years ago) link

Now that's just silly.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 16:37 (twelve years ago) link

jocks could be my new favorite word
at least for today

Laura Lucy Lynn (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 16:39 (twelve years ago) link

carl agatha, i had that bookmark problem when i first signed up for ilx and again on the sandbox -- both times i deleted all my bookmarks and then previously unbookmarkable threads were bookmarkable. maybe i signed in and out also, i can't remember.

I discovered this by accident when i got zing and all my bookmarks disappeared, and suddenly i was able to bookmark things i wasn't able to

(this might be a problem if you've got a gajillion bookmarks)

on topic, i once had to go commando b/c i forgot to bring an extra pair to the gym, and felt very uncomfortable! but more psychological i think than physical discomfort

rayuela, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 16:43 (twelve years ago) link

Kate Beaton is not displaying for me ;_;

I guess like "naturally chipper" vs "nice-face" is one of those things I find v v hard to read, or maybe it's hard for me to tell the difference between ppl who are genuinely lovely, ppl who do it as a distancing technique and ppl who did it as a policy and only years later you figure out they didn't like you v much.

Perhaps it's difficult for me to grok bcuz I'm not naturally a sunny disposition, I want to blame "ooh moody Celtic blood" etc but that's hard to tell bcuz I have just come out of spending 3 years in such an awful situation I forgot the capability to be pleasant? And I'm feeling like I'm in a depressurisation zone right now trying to figure out who I am again so who knows who I am.But I've always been manic or depressed, seldom nice.

But y'know, like I said, it's something I'm trying to work on, not being so suspicious.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 17:18 (twelve years ago) link

Then again, I don't find "the alternative" that exhausting. If someone pisses me off, I blow up at them, they go away, I don't have to deal with them, and I return to happy v quickly! Problem solved! :-D

This works less well in long-term situations, mind.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 17:21 (twelve years ago) link

xp I don't know of I've done enough troubleshooting re the bookmarks yet and I certainly haven't asked for help or researched it so I don't know. I keep hoping it will just fix itself.

Oddly enough, I don't feel pressured to act nice when I don't feel nice. Don't know whether that's because I generally am nice (I am pretty personable and I generally like interacting with people) or am in a profession where bitch face is a perk, or maybe nobody expects govt employees to be pleasant so nobody cares when I'm surly.

Or yeah, like WCC, I'm comfortable being straightforward about when I am not feeling nice.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 17:30 (twelve years ago) link

I got a lunch hour manicure because my cuticles, especially around the top of my nails, gets all dried out and jerky-like in the winter and, you know, blood red nails = funtimes, and tonight I'm getting my hair cut/colored and I'm feeling very... maintained right about now, and not entirely in a good way.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 19:32 (twelve years ago) link

I meant to say that my practical manicure reasons are to get all the dry skin snipped away from my fingers, and the fun reason is to have my nails painted blood red.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 19:35 (twelve years ago) link

One of the nice things about having nail, hair, facial, etc appts close together is that you can stop thinking about all those things at once for another 2-8 weeks.

one little aioli (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 19:37 (twelve years ago) link

In a way it's like going to all the kinds of doctor for check-ups in the same week.

one little aioli (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 19:37 (twelve years ago) link

I got a lunch hour manicure because my cuticles, especially around the top of my nails, gets all dried out and jerky-like in the winter

Mine too, it sucks.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 19:39 (twelve years ago) link

I have a tub of Military Strength Cuticle Cream and badass hand lotion (I actually asked the lady at Sephora, "Which is your most badass hand lotion?") on my desk and apply both after I return to my desk from the bathroom every time and still. Jerky fingers is me.

I can already tell the polish part of this manicure isn't going to last more than a couple of days, much less two weeks, but that's okay.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 19:46 (twelve years ago) link

I type all day at work and I readily admit that I like seeing my painted fingernails flying over my keyboard.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 19:47 (twelve years ago) link

Me too Jenny, me too. I have cuticle oil, handcream, the works! Still, my annoying cuticles persist. The girls always tsk or make faces when I come in because there's so much to snip. lol.

I have silver glitter nails right now and watching them type is pretty mesmerizing. Gonna switch it up at home tonight though because I think all 10 digits done up in glitter is a little too much bling for me.

I'm curious about the bad-ass hand lotion. What did they recommend?

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 19:50 (twelve years ago) link

Also, what's a good cuticle oil?

kinder, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 20:00 (twelve years ago) link

Caudalie is the hand lotion. It's pretty standard high end hand cream and doesn't smell ridiculous so I like it.

I guess it has some grape-related bullshit in it. The sales person pitched it as being invented by a woman who owned a vineyard after she noticed how soft the hands of her farm laborers were and I was like… that is highly unlikely and also makes you sound like a shithead.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 20:11 (twelve years ago) link

unless it's some sort of "All that Heaven Allows" kinda noticing

sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 20:14 (twelve years ago) link

ugh, post before thinking, prob. D.H. Lawrence is a better reference

sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 20:15 (twelve years ago) link

I wouldn't have gotten either one, so.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 20:15 (twelve years ago) link

the lady of the house getting it on with "a hired man"

sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 20:16 (twelve years ago) link

I don't dislike shopping, AT ALL, but I hate getting dressed and walking to the train and spending 1 hour on the subway just go to a store or 3 which will be crowded with people who I'll have to jostle/avoid jostling in order to fake myself out with some kind of "pleasant" or even "luxurious" shopping experience ie buying nicer things than I normally would. Like the wear and tear of the trip takes all the fun out of having fancy lotion or a scented candle.

I'm going to start ordering every single thing in my life on the internet,e even, like, potted plants.

one little aioli (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 20:17 (twelve years ago) link

xp - there was an awesome lifetime movie about that starring the extremely blank david charvet and the woman who played andrea on 90210

Laura Lucy Lynn (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 20:18 (twelve years ago) link

I love so many things about New York but I'm really getting to a place where other people make leaving the house just not worth it. I wonder if that would be lessened or resolved if I were willing to pay $400 a month more to live in a nabe with walkable luxuries.

one little aioli (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 20:19 (twelve years ago) link

xp Ahhhh, got it.

I don't know. Maybe it was the Sephora environment or the overly made up woman relating the tale, but I got a Elizabeth Bathory Blood Countess vibe of knowing. Like the original formulation of the hand cream might have been made from the actual hands of the farm laborers.

Laurel, I spent some time this weekend wrestling with whether it would be easier to order a large lingerie bag from Amazon or take one (1) bus to Bed Bath and Beyond to buy one.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 20:20 (twelve years ago) link

I really want a "string of pearls" succulent plant for a hanging pot in my window, but the amazon.com shipping is like $10 for a $10 plant, and I think, that's ridiculous, surely I can buy one somewhere in this city? but the trip is always going to be an hour each way and fuck it, I just can't.

one little aioli (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 20:22 (twelve years ago) link

Do you drive? Can you get a car share and stack a bunch of errands at once? That's usually what we do for that kind of stuff.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 20:24 (twelve years ago) link

I don't have a license anymore, and I haven't done all the background work necessary to get one. There's a driving test in NY state, which is inconvenient at best if you don't have a car to take the test in.

I should go waaaaaay out in Queens or something where there are no city streets or lots of traffic and go to a DMV there.

one little aioli (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 20:27 (twelve years ago) link

(Note: I seemed to have fixed the bookmarks issue and here is how! I deleted all of my bookmarks. I logged out and deleted the cookie. I cleared my browser cache. I logged back in and bookmarks magically worked. *THE HUGEST OF SHRUGS*)

carl agatha, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 20:57 (twelve years ago) link

Having a job that required me to be friendly to some pretty horrible people (not the clients so much, but their relatives) really, really fucked me up. I'm hoping that I can get a job that doesn't make me deal with the public, but there aren't many or any of those in the entry level category.

"Ruffle butt pants" are really called rhumba pants, BTW.

Today I had the first bout of menstrual pain that I can remember having. I wonder why I'm getting this now, for the first time in decades if not ever.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 21:29 (twelve years ago) link

whoa string of pearls is RAD
succulents are such fabulous squishy space fractals

high five delivery device (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 21:29 (twelve years ago) link

I love hens and chicks.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 21:32 (twelve years ago) link

I was thinking about getting an African violet.
I was also thinking, with my budget, I need to quit buying frivolities.

high five delivery device (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 21:34 (twelve years ago) link

I grew up with loads of houseplants all over the place, plants lining every windowsill and hanging from every ceiling.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 21:37 (twelve years ago) link

I really want some succulents. I'd like to make a succulent terrarium.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 21:44 (twelve years ago) link

i have two plants: a v small hens&chicks type plant (i am told) and a medium-sized plant with thick round leaves that is nice and once grew a penis! it was white. then one day it was gone. mysteries.

i would like more plants.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 22:08 (twelve years ago) link

I have six plants. I would also like more. I love plants. Plants in every room.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 22:11 (twelve years ago) link

Hold up.

Your plant. It grew a . . . a penis?

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 22:11 (twelve years ago) link

the "nice face" convo upthread is something i think about A LOT, because irl "niceness" is p. much my defining (non-physical, public-facing) characteristic. part of it is due to lolfamily issues, where i took on the role of mediator between my mom and my younger sisters, or my mom and my dad, and was really committed to defusing potential blow-ups and smoothing over small slights that might grow into larger arguments. i've realized that "niceness," the way i practice it, is both self-defensive and self-minimizing, as a way to stave off trouble/abuse. this has led to situations where i've been a shitty ally, though, because the instinct to defuse arguments and "make nice" has basically had the effect of legitimizing others' bad behavior.

another component of this -- that i've hesitated posting about overmuch on ilx, since it's still a fairly tender subject for me -- is the fact that i've been fat since puberty. cultivating "nice" was also a defense against some of the insidious cultural messages re: being a young fat girl -- like, "nice" was something to offer, a consolation prize to the people around me who had to "deal with" being in my undesirable presence. the body positivity/fat acceptance movements have been really helpful to me in rethinking all stuff, but i'm pretty reliant on my defense mechanisms still.

ban opinions (reddening), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 22:13 (twelve years ago) link

it grew a white protuberance/proboscis from between two leaves and i thought it was perhaps going to be a flower but it never flowered and then one day, after i'd been away for the weekend, it was gone!
xp

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 22:15 (twelve years ago) link

Oh!! Is it a peace lily?

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 22:16 (twelve years ago) link

http://images.plant-care.com/peeace-lily-sonya.jpg

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 22:17 (twelve years ago) link

i have, uh, 11 plants. and 3 glasses of plant bits that i'm rooting into new plants.

the philodendron and the spider plant are the most low-maintenance plants evar, imo. love them. (those are 2 i'm rooting) my spider plant is older than me--it was given to me by a family friend when i was in college.

succulents are pretty great too.

xp i've been wanting to get a peace lily too! (never too many plants!)

JuliaA, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 22:17 (twelve years ago) link

<3 reddening

carl agatha, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 22:23 (twelve years ago) link

yeah for real

high five delivery device (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 22:26 (twelve years ago) link

thanks you guys <3

also in some weird synchronicity with this thread, my dad just gave me & my sisters some tulip plants for valentine's day. i only own fake plants and had an honest moment of "hooray, flowers! why are they in a bowl of dirt though."

ban opinions (reddening), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 23:02 (twelve years ago) link

looooool redd.

one little aioli (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 23:09 (twelve years ago) link

Aw reddening also <3 it's so weird how similar experiences can have such different results. I kinda feel like, the experience of being overweight before and during puberty made me feel like "nice" was a game I was never going to win (but combine fat with "too smart" and "have English accent" for maximum pariah effect) so why even try. But I can see how your strategy would come about too.

I have just had an IRL gurl thread in the pub with a lady ILX0r (ignoring V-D guff) and it was AWESOME. I huggles you all especially the people who would h8 being hugged by me HAH!

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 23:10 (twelve years ago) link

aw :)

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 23:26 (twelve years ago) link

it is not a peace lily but i would like a peace lily now!

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 23:26 (twelve years ago) link

Reddening <3

wolf kabob (ENBB), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 23:30 (twelve years ago) link

peace lilies are so pretty, and they're supposed to be nearly neglect-proof.

hugglez to everyone here. i really love this thread.

JuliaA, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 23:37 (twelve years ago) link

The sales person pitched it as being invented by a woman who owned a vineyard after she noticed how soft the hands of her farm laborers were and I was like… that is highly unlikely and also makes you sound like a shithead.

― carl agatha, Tuesday, February 14, 2012 3:11 PM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ahahahaha

horseshoe, Wednesday, 15 February 2012 00:10 (twelve years ago) link

also <3 reddening and i really identify with the family mediator stuff in your post.

horseshoe, Wednesday, 15 February 2012 00:11 (twelve years ago) link

BTW that 'noticing how soft the workers' hands are' has I'm sure been used for everything from olive oil to, I don't know, nappies or something. I feel like I'm always hearing that line!

kinder, Wednesday, 15 February 2012 00:54 (twelve years ago) link

tbh that would be my cue to crack the whip

high five delivery device (Abbbottt), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 00:58 (twelve years ago) link

"look how lilywhite and silky soft your hands are,
they should be in shreds from the sting of the bitter grape's thorn as God promised"

high five delivery device (Abbbottt), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 00:58 (twelve years ago) link

i think i posted about this before, but once i was drunk in nashville and tried to give myself gram parsons' haircut. it turned out to just be a huge bang cut very crazy. bandmate upon first viewing of haircut: "this is grim"

― carpathian florist (roxymuzak), Friday, July 3, 2009 11:17 AM (2 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

still growing this out tbh

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 02:07 (twelve years ago) link

Hahaha

carl agatha, Wednesday, 15 February 2012 02:09 (twelve years ago) link

Y'all I have had a peace lily for almost three years and it is not only not dead, like every other potted thing i have attempted to grow, but it looks amazing. Jesse gave it to me for my cube at work. It even bloomed again, which I read is somewhat unusual.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 15 February 2012 02:12 (twelve years ago) link

BTW that 'noticing how soft the workers' hands are' has I'm sure been used for everything from olive oil to, I don't know, nappies or something. I feel like I'm always hearing that line!

Honest to god, when she started the spiel I really thought it would end "when she noticed how the workers' hands were rough and chapped from labor so she invented this amazing hand cream for them." Seriously.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 15 February 2012 02:14 (twelve years ago) link

Nice face is required from me at work much of the time as my job is all about persuading people they want to do stuff. Recently I've noticed I'm rebelling and getting snappy at certain people. I take my job too personally.

ljubljana, Wednesday, 15 February 2012 02:53 (twelve years ago) link

This is probably a bit heavy for a Monday morning, but here it is anyway:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/feb/25/child-free-women-jody-day

I can't decide if articles like this make me feel better or make me feel worse.

On the one hand it's like, OK, sure, this is a thing, it's not just me, there are a lot of chords being struck. But on the other hand... The social ostracism thing. That's just depressing as fuck, and it seems unfair on both sides, but geez.

I have the experience that friends cool off vastly when they enter long-term partnerships, get married or whatever, but when they have children, it's like they drop off the face of the planet. Except, I never looked at it this way before, actually, it's that they drop you off the face of the planet. Eh, it's probably nicer thinking that than the truth that people drop you coz you're actually kind of a weirdo freak asshole.

But, the whole thing is very melancholic for a Monday morning, and now, here, you can have some of that melancholy, too.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Monday, 27 February 2012 08:43 (twelve years ago) link

^I read that too and while some of it was familiar, she didn't engage with the whole SINGLE PERSON IN THE BAGGING AREA paranoia in certain friendship groups who are coupled up and then only remember to socialize with friends who mirror their own coupledom (or parenthood). Are the women threatened when I talk to their partners? Maybe there's something at the animal level that mistrusts the rogue female, but I can't be responsible for someone else's neuroses and projections. I will grant that for a lot of my friends with kids, it's easier for them to socialize with each other because they don't have to worry about where to park their kids if their hosts have children too. Having been one-half of a very social couple, I can report that a lot of our choices involved seeing a friend of one partner or the other (and that person's partner) of an evening, going to less private views and gigs, and that multi-friend gatherings had to be more planned out than the impromptu nature of a social life when most people are single or in short-term relationships, or expected to socialize a lot with work colleagues.

I've known since I bought my first box of tampons/read my childhood oncology reports that I'd probably never have kids, partner or not. What I really don't like is a suggestion that parents are acting in a more age-appropriate way than I am; it's condescending and I'd rather not throw around my medical records as a guiltweapon against people who patronise or pry. Some men I know fall into a pattern of taking childless people less seriously because they're a parent now, as if any of their parenting involves the heavy lifting or they want a medal from womankind for meeting some very, very basic responsibilities. I actually got fed up with one acquaintance's New Man dadbragging and asked if he was the one with the stretch marks.

Glad to see you're posting, WCC. I refrained for six months (and am only really dipping in on grrrlsthread for this one comment) because I had a last-straw moment with the way male posters were treating you at the time. I hope you find a non-soul-destroying form of employment ASAP, as you must be due some redistributive karma soon.

rikki tikki tavi gevinson (suzy), Monday, 27 February 2012 11:39 (twelve years ago) link

SUZY!!!! pleased to see you here.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Monday, 27 February 2012 11:41 (twelve years ago) link

You too - come over after Kernewek this week, yo. Might also add that I'm procrastinating a deadline wherein Antony of the Johnsons goes on AT LENGTH about how 'toxic maleness' is killing the world (but I'll be finished by then).

rikki tikki tavi gevinson (suzy), Monday, 27 February 2012 11:55 (twelve years ago) link

I need to unload a teeny bit today, I'm sorry. Something has been bugging me. A few days ago, a friend I rarely see confided that her boyfriend is physically abusive, and showed us bruises on her wrists. She has...taken some legal & protective steps but hasn't made the break-up stick.

On the way home from seeing her, the other person I was with was expressing how sad and confused she is that anyone would stay with an abuser. THEN SHE SAYS, "On the other hand, what if {the abused girlfriend} is the only person who can do this really good thing for him, of staying together until he figures it out?" Like she was genuinely looking for something good FOR THE BOYFRIEND WHO HURTS HER to come out of our friend's suffering.

O_o

drawn to them like a moth toward a spanakopita (Laurel), Thursday, 8 March 2012 18:24 (twelve years ago) link

Yeah that is totally backwards and strange. Until he figures out what? How not to be an abuser?

Also I don't get this: taken some legal & protective steps but hasn't made the break-up stick. Most legal and protective things I can think of would sort of either necessitate or cause a break-up, no?

wolf kabob (ENBB), Thursday, 8 March 2012 18:27 (twelve years ago) link

Calling the police somehow turned into "he's going to court-ordered anger management therapy but I'm required to go with him, because you know how a lot of women don't press charges?" which the other two of us cannot understand and never got explained in the short window of time before the guy came back over.

drawn to them like a moth toward a spanakopita (Laurel), Thursday, 8 March 2012 18:52 (twelve years ago) link

Yeah, I don't understand that either. :/

wolf kabob (ENBB), Thursday, 8 March 2012 19:52 (twelve years ago) link

I rly feel for the woman in the relationship, but I'm kind of unfairly ANGRY with the friend who said maybe it was all for a higher cause, like, because maybe she could HELP HIM. I know she didn't mean that our friend should be sacrificed to her abusive bf but it was such a WTF thing to say.

drawn to them like a moth toward a spanakopita (Laurel), Thursday, 8 March 2012 20:06 (twelve years ago) link

help him, how? like, does he have some other problem that makes beating his gf from time to time understandable?

sarahell, Thursday, 8 March 2012 20:10 (twelve years ago) link

That is WTF, I agree. However maybe you're also partially channeling the anger at the boyfriend at the more accessible target who happened to wind you up right after having your head filled with bad thoughts abt the asshole?

Or maybe not, I mean!

(PS this is so sad, I worry so much abt a friend I basically never talk to any more because she's not allowed to see anyone and the occasional emails all end "got to go, he's back soon and will be angry if he knows I've used the computer, got to leave it enough time to cool down" and blah, we don't even know 100% that he's physically abusive as well as emotionally and we don't know what to do)

instant coffee happening between us (a passing spacecadet), Thursday, 8 March 2012 20:13 (twelve years ago) link

i think i can understand a lot of reasons people don't "press charges" (is that how you do it in new york, does the victim have a choice?) or don't follow through with or cooperate with prosecutions for domestic violence. the way it's handled is really shitty for everyone and i hate it.

kim tim jim investor (harbl), Thursday, 8 March 2012 23:07 (twelve years ago) link

yeah otm. i have been thinking a lot about how shitty the existing systems for handling complaints of domestic violence and also rape are legally. sometimes i wonder if it's even possible to make them better? like there might need to be a whole new way of addressing these things. i don't even really know what i mean by that it's just so shitty for victims of abuse to then have to put up with added horribleness.

i'm really sorry this is happening to your friend, Laurel.

horseshoe, Thursday, 8 March 2012 23:44 (twelve years ago) link

one of the things that started me thinking about the inadequacies of the system was this about the dominique strauss-kahn case. it's kind of hard to read, but it seems fairly otm? (nb: she is apparently a defense lawyer and i kept thinking of harbl the first time i read it.)

there is a part of me that wants all these assholes hurled in jail but it just doesn't seem to work out very well for the victims in question.

horseshoe, Thursday, 8 March 2012 23:51 (twelve years ago) link

sorry, that's just her tumblr. this is the post i meant to link.

horseshoe, Thursday, 8 March 2012 23:52 (twelve years ago) link

i like that but i was even thinking of something different that i think about every day. in the county i work in they are really good at acting like they want what the victim wants, until the victim doesn't want what they want, and then the patronizing but-we're-helping-you-you-just-don't-know-it-yet game gets started. imo even given situations like fear of testifying and battered woman's syndrome, making someone come to court (sometimes under threat of arrest) after they told you that they don't want to is not making it better. even fearful or battered people should have some control over the thing, and who gets to decide why they aren't interested anyway?

i think some people who do domestic violence can be changed in some circumstances. usually if they have money and education and can get into individual counseling rather than a one-size-fits-all state certified anger management class. they make people do ywca "abuser intervention programs" here and i don't know what they do there but i am skeptical of their effectiveness given the people they are dealing with. most abusers i think were exposed to violence as children and have other mental problems that are not going to be fixed so easily. also alcoholism is a big thing. should just ban alcohol.

kim tim jim investor (harbl), Friday, 9 March 2012 00:08 (twelve years ago) link

in the county i work in they are really good at acting like they want what the victim wants, until the victim doesn't want what they want, and then the patronizing but-we're-helping-you-you-just-don't-know-it-yet game gets started. imo even given situations like fear of testifying and battered woman's syndrome, making someone come to court (sometimes under threat of arrest) after they told you that they don't want to is not making it better. even fearful or battered people should have some control over the thing, and who gets to decide why they aren't interested anyway?

yes, that all seems otm

horseshoe, Friday, 9 March 2012 00:10 (twelve years ago) link

x-post ime Harbl otm x1000

wolf kabob (ENBB), Friday, 9 March 2012 00:10 (twelve years ago) link

two weeks pass...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/fashion/6651851/How-to-fix-hairy-legs-and-cankles

lol, the indignant comments after this story are so very new zealand, reading them made me homesick.

estela, Wednesday, 28 March 2012 02:52 (twelve years ago) link

Ha

Ell #21 3:18pm
I was a feminist, but then I shaved my legs, and with each stroke of the razor I too found myself thinking "no, women don't need social equality" until finally as I gently went over my knees I thought "you're right, I do deserve an unequal wage." Bravo for defining feminism as it so often has been since the 1980s backlash and continuing to remember that no woman with a smooth leg has ever thought about our inequality.

emil.y, Wednesday, 28 March 2012 03:01 (twelve years ago) link

yes <3

Did you drop some flug in my cup? (Abbbottt), Wednesday, 28 March 2012 03:08 (twelve years ago) link

SKM #17 3:08pm

My best friend always teases me about not shaving my legs in winter (my thoughts - why bother?). But it's always teasing and he wouldn't dare tell me I can't leave the house without a wax job. If she hasn't asked for your advice, leave well enough alone! Lorraine, you sound like a very image-oriented friend. Are you still in high school?

Did you drop some flug in my cup? (Abbbottt), Wednesday, 28 March 2012 03:09 (twelve years ago) link

ljlj #8 2:48pm
Dear Fashion Doctor, my friend dares to look different from expected norms, how do I tell her how disgusting and freakish she is for not wanting to feel shame about her body and to cover up, and that she makes me want to puke?

Dear Lorraine, I share in your horror that your friend flaunts her disgusting hairy fatness. I wish you could bring her over to my house so I could stare at her like the freak show that she is. If she's one of those 'feminists' she can't be fixed so you should end the friendship - hopefully then her grossness is because she's slovenly. If she's just not noticed how gross she is have a word to her about how horrendous her wardrobe is and tell her how to dress.

Kisses! The Fashion Doctor

estela, Wednesday, 28 March 2012 03:12 (twelve years ago) link

two months pass...

OMG I FORGOT ABOUT THIS

<3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Friday, 22 June 2012 19:35 (eleven years ago) link

im prepared to say he was the best looking living male at that time

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Friday, 22 June 2012 19:36 (eleven years ago) link

hahaha i liked the wrong video

although i do believe bernard is the best looking living male, that was supposed to be a video of damon albarn

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Saturday, 23 June 2012 15:17 (eleven years ago) link

Oh come on, Damon was only about the 2nd or 3rd best looking man in his own band.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Saturday, 23 June 2012 15:42 (eleven years ago) link

if youre insane

although i do think blur in 1996 were a fuckin joke in re how hot they all were

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Saturday, 23 June 2012 15:51 (eleven years ago) link

im v v attrated to graham and he was my favorite when i was in high school. alex is def/obv beautiful but not really my type.

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Saturday, 23 June 2012 15:53 (eleven years ago) link

also last night i had a dream that damon and graham (circa '94) asked me to store some paintings in my garage and then me and damon kissed behind a painting, i never have dreams like this

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Saturday, 23 June 2012 15:54 (eleven years ago) link

Alex circa Modern Life was possibly one of the most beautiful looking human beings who has ever lived! Good god I wish handsome were as handsome does in that man's case, though. :-(

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Saturday, 23 June 2012 15:55 (eleven years ago) link

idk why but roxy's smoochdream is making me lol
no idea what the blurs look like

chupacabra seeds (Abbbottt), Saturday, 23 June 2012 16:00 (eleven years ago) link

otm. i cringed through his book

the smooch dream is embarrassing and teenagerish!!

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Saturday, 23 June 2012 16:01 (eleven years ago) link

yes it is very silly :3

chupacabra seeds (Abbbottt), Saturday, 23 June 2012 16:02 (eleven years ago) link

i cant say im ashamed, ive told everyone about it, lol.

in the dream damon said "she'll just throw them out" re: the paintings. what does it mean

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Saturday, 23 June 2012 16:08 (eleven years ago) link

They are leaving their art carelessly in the hind parts of your brain, and they are afraid that you will forget their beautiful art and throw away the band's best work. Or, erm, something.

I love dreams where I get to smooch rock stars. But I am embarrassing and teenagerish.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Saturday, 23 June 2012 16:11 (eleven years ago) link

man I'll settle for any kissing dream

chupacabra seeds (Abbbottt), Saturday, 23 June 2012 16:53 (eleven years ago) link

I'm not embarrassed to admit I got an "omg he looks like Alex James" excitement vibe when I met my husband. I'm sad I missed all this Blur talk! I'm also sad the emo movement pushed Andrew to lose the front-swept bangs I loved so much, heh.

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Saturday, 23 June 2012 17:59 (eleven years ago) link

I would like Blur dreams. I was nuts enough for them that I am sure I have had them, but can't recall any. :( I will settle for that one time AJ winked back at me in a concert. Sigh.

OTN re hotness of 96 Blur. Damon in all those polo shirts and shaggy bowl cut, Graham in his secondhand shirts..sorry Dave, I got nothing except maybe that brief orange hair period.

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Saturday, 23 June 2012 18:02 (eleven years ago) link

ive never had any dreams about them or any other fancied rockstars

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3bx6c2CQU1r7uocgo1_r1_500.jpg

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Saturday, 23 June 2012 18:13 (eleven years ago) link

Graham I kinda got in a super-indie sort of way. But I just never ever saw the appeal of Damon. He just reminded me of some super-punchable older brother.

Besides, I got room for only one boyish, spikey-haired, art school-attending English blond in my life.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5y1s5GmAj1rsvop4o1_500.jpg

^^^^^ this one.

I can has snog-dream, pls?

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Saturday, 23 June 2012 18:16 (eleven years ago) link

i think i had a smoochy Jarvis Cocker dream recently? however Jarvis had merged with David Tennant and it involved time travel, so i think it was more a doctor who dream than a brit pop dream.

sarahell, Saturday, 23 June 2012 18:19 (eleven years ago) link

Thats it right there Roxy - those fucking eyelashes, gah! I'm biting my lip just looking at that gif.

I can see a decent Jarvis/Dr Who crossover! Maybe he took you back to Disco 2000. ;)

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Saturday, 23 June 2012 18:25 (eleven years ago) link

well, my friend Amber used the phrase "jarvis cocker in space" when describing tennant as the doctor, so that is how i made the connection - plus the suit, and the thing he does with his hair.

sarahell, Saturday, 23 June 2012 18:32 (eleven years ago) link

You just ruined David Tennant for me FOR EVAH!

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Saturday, 23 June 2012 18:38 (eleven years ago) link

sorry!

sarahell, Saturday, 23 June 2012 18:43 (eleven years ago) link

Haha ;)

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Saturday, 23 June 2012 18:49 (eleven years ago) link

lol

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Saturday, 23 June 2012 18:51 (eleven years ago) link

i think they both are v dreamy, though my friend G0rdon loathes tennant and does dick van dyke in mary poppins impressions when we discuss tennant, and i just tell him that i don't care, he is my favorite.

sarahell, Saturday, 23 June 2012 19:03 (eleven years ago) link

Tennant's English accent is hilarious, though! Even funnier than Ewan McGregor's!

I think it just adds to the appeal of both of them.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Saturday, 23 June 2012 19:05 (eleven years ago) link

(I mean if we're talking boys from the 90s, Ewan is the uber-dreamy)

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Saturday, 23 June 2012 19:06 (eleven years ago) link

oh yes! though it does raise my feminist hackles to think that Shallow Grave had three stars: one went on to play Doctor Who, one went on to play Obi Wan Kenobi, and the third was a woman.

sarahell, Saturday, 23 June 2012 19:07 (eleven years ago) link

Keith Allen is a woman?

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Saturday, 23 June 2012 19:45 (eleven years ago) link

kerry fox

sarahell, Saturday, 23 June 2012 19:49 (eleven years ago) link

ewan was my biggest celeb love interest in high school, hands down.

i also liked jude law, but he was kinda too pretty. i remember explaining to a friend why damon albarn was more supernaturally attractive than jude law because damon had fucked up teeth. when he smiled it gave that little crack in the straight prettiness that really made it just painful to look at

i ran into jude law in person once!!!! i was with ken chu on primrose hill. for a brief second i thought he was damon albarn and i nearly died.

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Saturday, 23 June 2012 23:31 (eleven years ago) link

lets just have pictures of our teenage crushes for a while

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l9apkrbe8e1qzeuejo1_500.jpg

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Saturday, 23 June 2012 23:35 (eleven years ago) link

^had that picture on my wall for years and years, then one time i went to see sebadoh in another city and unwittingly left my cat locked in my room. she shredded the picture. haw

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Saturday, 23 June 2012 23:43 (eleven years ago) link

i had this on the cover of my notebook for a long time, actually that may have lasted into college

http://img2.bdbphotos.com/images/orig/d/3/d36nvhrs8rvqn6hq.jpg

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Saturday, 23 June 2012 23:47 (eleven years ago) link

I had the biggest crush on Beck c Odelay

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m56vouyNn01r3l383o1_1280.jpg

chupacabra seeds (Abbbottt), Sunday, 24 June 2012 00:44 (eleven years ago) link

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l0x3s1cdXH1qaykoyo1_500.jpg

still find these pics thrilling tbh

chupacabra seeds (Abbbottt), Sunday, 24 June 2012 00:44 (eleven years ago) link

I liked Harvey in Sabrina the Teenage Witch

http://hotteahotbooks.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/3852767941_4cb96412fe.jpeg

chupacabra seeds (Abbbottt), Sunday, 24 June 2012 00:45 (eleven years ago) link

God, I can barely remember my teenage years. Actually - HAH! Wait, I remember my number one crush.

Don't laugh, I always had a thing for gingers.

http://www.godsandalcoves.com/uploads/images_013/images/love_and_rockets_band.jpg

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Sunday, 24 June 2012 10:29 (eleven years ago) link

Roxy otm about Damon x1000. He was so freaking dreamy it was unreal. That gif! I also had a big thing for Jude Law but he hasn't aged very well. Ewan was a favorite as well tbh. You have good taste!

I think though, that my ultimate teenage crush was Christian Bale.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5zyueWSVb1qzspj4o1_500.gif
http://www.iballer.com/malecelebs/bale/images/b20_jpg.jpg

SEXY GUYS

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v342/adsss/christian.jpg

Who am I kidding with "was"? The man is still ridiculously handsome.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Sunday, 24 June 2012 11:46 (eleven years ago) link

hahaha the first pic was supposed to be this one from newsies:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0up7cL2oB1r437e6o1_250.jpg

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Sunday, 24 June 2012 11:46 (eleven years ago) link

Aw that's a v v cute picture of Lou B.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Sunday, 24 June 2012 11:47 (eleven years ago) link

As much as I loved Ewan, my Trainspotting crush was most defintely the former Mr. Angelina Jolie:

http://www.hobo-bonobo.co.uk/newsdesk/images/070731230809.jpg

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Sunday, 24 June 2012 11:50 (eleven years ago) link

The only celebrity sexxy dreams I have are about Oliver Reed o_O

tokyo rosemary, Sunday, 24 June 2012 14:23 (eleven years ago) link

haha i was going to add sick boy as a footnote
and i loved xian bale too, but it was a little later, like in early college.
we have great taste!

damon has aged weirdly too but his look wasnt really something sustainable. hes still a cute man. and clearly doesnt really give a fuck, which is something.

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Sunday, 24 June 2012 14:42 (eleven years ago) link

i also liked

http://celebslists.com/images/dave-foley-01.jpg

lol!

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Sunday, 24 June 2012 14:43 (eleven years ago) link

Is that the guy from Kids in the Hall? (edit: I checked, it is, and uh, wow, age has not been kind.)

I didn't have many celeb crushes, I guess mine would've just been Kurt Cobain, like the typical depressoid teen I was. But scrolling down this thread and seeing that picture of Graham biting his lip, COR BUGGERING BLIMEY, basically.

emil.y, Sunday, 24 June 2012 14:55 (eleven years ago) link

Dave Foley <3 love that guy even if he did age heavily haha

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Sunday, 24 June 2012 15:28 (eleven years ago) link

yeah time was def cruel to dave

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Sunday, 24 June 2012 15:42 (eleven years ago) link

i had an odelay-era pic of beck on my wall in high school, but i don't think i thought he was hot, i think i just thought he was cool. i'm not sure though.

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Sunday, 24 June 2012 15:43 (eleven years ago) link

Go back and forth on Beck. It really depends on how he's styled. I don't think he's inherently cute but damn he sure has had some cute looks over the years.

Also there's that whole Scientology thing. Though that gets balanced out by the "did he have sex with Thom Yorke?" thing.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Sunday, 24 June 2012 15:55 (eleven years ago) link

Wait, that last one may only have been in the minds of fangirls everywhere.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Sunday, 24 June 2012 15:56 (eleven years ago) link

aw I love that roxy had a crush on Dave Foley! I always liked when they had a black wig on him – Hecubus, the Steps sketches

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/rgF5SxGaCzc/0.jpg

chupacabra seeds (Abbbottt), Sunday, 24 June 2012 17:44 (eleven years ago) link

senior year was when I figured out Buster Keaton is the most beautiful guy who ever lived

http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/13800000/Buster-Keaton-silent-movies-13813188-1300-1654.jpg

chupacabra seeds (Abbbottt), Sunday, 24 June 2012 17:47 (eleven years ago) link

I think I have developed a mad crush on Kieran Hebden.

Mainly because he appears to be half man, half paisley.

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/314980/Four+Tet.jpg

I'm not sure if this should go here or on the crush of shame thread. But I'm not ashamed of crushing on his remixes.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Sunday, 24 June 2012 19:26 (eleven years ago) link

had a total teen crush on this guy:

http://i4.ytimg.com/vi/ww5Ko6Fiq5s/hqdefault.jpg

partially because he reminded me of other teen crush

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_EhafbTdBBJo/SyElVzq0dLI/AAAAAAAADAU/-jieA8PhL1c/s400/Ian_Curtis--large-msg-113454043898-2.jpg

sarahell, Sunday, 24 June 2012 20:53 (eleven years ago) link

haha so that IS kate! <3

totally agree re: buster keaton, what a beautiful dude.

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Sunday, 24 June 2012 20:58 (eleven years ago) link

In year 12, at 16, this was one of my #1's. And still is, tho time has also not aged this gent too well (doesnt it all of us)

http://25.media.tumblr.com/VMFMD9qmmonylzkilklUpnVqo1_400.jpg

Pureed Moods (Trayce), Monday, 25 June 2012 00:03 (eleven years ago) link

OTOH my other teen crush has aged like the finest wine in the universe.

http://www.samadhisound.com/jansenthewire.jpg

Pureed Moods (Trayce), Monday, 25 June 2012 00:05 (eleven years ago) link

there was a weird period in my early teen years when i thought jim carrey was hot lol

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Monday, 25 June 2012 08:12 (eleven years ago) link

awww geez I have an intense crush on porn star James Deen thanks to my manager talking about him too much on twitter last week. If you've got some time alone, check him out ladies.. /crepey

http://www.polyvore.com/cgi/img-thing?.out=jpg&size=l&tid=17742508

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Monday, 25 June 2012 12:46 (eleven years ago) link

A firm ew. That smile is too knowing and coquettish.

how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Monday, 25 June 2012 13:24 (eleven years ago) link

Yeah. I don't know about that guy, Lex. Sorry. :/

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Monday, 25 June 2012 13:25 (eleven years ago) link

if i were being really honest with myself i would post a picture of bono in this thread but gawd.

horseshoe, Monday, 25 June 2012 13:30 (eleven years ago) link

Oh, I didn't go for him at first when I saw a picture. But the videos are very boyfriendy and he's very into the ladies; it's refreshing (I was never a porn watcher, but that might change.)

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Monday, 25 June 2012 13:30 (eleven years ago) link

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-lIwUKNoncq8/T0rp5tqUWmI/AAAAAAAAAFo/jYLIBM0SP_k/s1600/mulder.jpg, why won't you love me?

horseshoe, Monday, 25 June 2012 13:32 (eleven years ago) link

Similarly, at my current age I'm a little creeped out by the babyish, wounded/vulnerable-looking faces of our old crush objects pictured above. Amazing how young Ewan McG looks. Kinda...victimy though? I'm torn between their obvious smashability and...them looking like they've already been smashed. :(

Oh, that guy is a porn star?

how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Monday, 25 June 2012 13:33 (eleven years ago) link

Oh I had a huge crush on Ralph Fiennes at one point.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Monday, 25 June 2012 13:35 (eleven years ago) link

YES! Both of them.

Man, River was so amazingly beautiful. Does he have a different dad to the other Pheonix kids? I've always wondered because they all look so much alike and nothing like him.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Monday, 25 June 2012 13:36 (eleven years ago) link

They do all look so young. And at the time, to me, they were all so old!

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Monday, 25 June 2012 13:40 (eleven years ago) link

tbf, ewan was playing a heroin addict in that movie. i remember him as being kind of hearty in comparison to some of the 90s waifs i lusted after, but maybe that was only relative.

horseshoe, Monday, 25 June 2012 13:42 (eleven years ago) link

i know i'm supposed to hate him, but i also thought damon albarn was the hottest.

horseshoe, Monday, 25 June 2012 13:43 (eleven years ago) link

I'm trying to think of who my teen crushes were and I'm blanking! I know when I was a pre-teen, I was all about Joe Elliot and Rick Savage from Def Leppard... Oh wait! I've got one.

http://cdn2.screenjunkies.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Lost-Boys-Michael-Jason-Patric.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_mpjLkY97zSY/SdxhAg-ujHI/AAAAAAAAB98/duy84uzniBU/s400/Jason%252BPatrick%252B-%252BLost%252BBoys.jpg

carl agatha, Monday, 25 June 2012 13:43 (eleven years ago) link

also, stephen malkmus. but i'm having a hard time finding 90s pictures of him online.

horseshoe, Monday, 25 June 2012 13:46 (eleven years ago) link

Oh wait, and Matthew Broderick c. War Games. And Wyatt but NOT Gary from Weird Science. And Val Kilmer from real Genius.

carl agatha, Monday, 25 June 2012 13:46 (eleven years ago) link

Oh oh oh Eric Stoltz c. Some Kind of Wonderful. Geez, how could I forget that one. I actually specifically remember telling somebody that he was my favorite actor at some point in the 80s.

carl agatha, Monday, 25 June 2012 13:48 (eleven years ago) link

yeah, eric stolz was preternaturally beautiful in that movie. tbh i was never into him, for that reason. there was something eerie about his face. still is.

horseshoe, Monday, 25 June 2012 13:50 (eleven years ago) link

tbh I didn't have crushes on any of the actual actors. I had crushes on their characters, and I translated those into crushes on the actors (hence Eric Stoltz as my stated favorite actor) because I thought that was a little more normal. But mostly I liked cute boys playing smart weirdos in movies (and also Jason Patric in the Lost Boys because come on, look at that guy).

carl agatha, Monday, 25 June 2012 13:52 (eleven years ago) link

As far as musicians go, Robert Smith, (young) Robert Plant, Chrissy Hynde, and in keeping with my affinity for smart weirdos, Mike Mills from REM.

http://static.tvguide.com/MediaBin/Galleries/Celebrities/M_R/Ra_Rh/Rem/crops/rem-michael-stipe-02.jpg

carl agatha, Monday, 25 June 2012 13:56 (eleven years ago) link

Some Kind of Wonderful: Keith v. Duncan

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Monday, 25 June 2012 13:56 (eleven years ago) link

eyebrows on the left there will haunt me til the end of days, wow

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Monday, 25 June 2012 13:57 (eleven years ago) link

xp me OTM in that thread

carl agatha, Monday, 25 June 2012 13:58 (eleven years ago) link

i liked this guy a lot but i can't think of any other actors
http://content6.flixster.com/photo/10/19/89/10198976_gal.jpg

i was obsessed with the face of marty willson piper, but only had a couple of pictures of him to go on and they were all basically half hair.

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 25 June 2012 14:02 (eleven years ago) link

in the preinternet era we sure were starved for pictures

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 25 June 2012 14:03 (eleven years ago) link

I didn't know who any of these people were when I was an adolescent/teen (I still don't know who half of these photos are of). When I was VERY young, though, I had a desperate infatuation with this guy:

http://www.mainstreetmallonline.com/fanstuff/members/buhhoe1/listings/062312MSMO114.jpg

how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Monday, 25 June 2012 14:09 (eleven years ago) link

Otherwise all my crushes were on real people. I kept all of them as secret as possible and never told the boys in question, although I couldn't stop myself from talking about them to others, so I'm sure everyone actually knew. I still remember all of their faces and most of their names.

how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Monday, 25 June 2012 14:10 (eleven years ago) link

well of course
except i occasionally told the boy in question and it NEVER EVER ENDED WELL. not even once.

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 25 June 2012 14:12 (eleven years ago) link

Nope.

how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Monday, 25 June 2012 14:13 (eleven years ago) link

btw that kid looks like a shrunken adrian zmed!

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 25 June 2012 14:13 (eleven years ago) link

my broken picture up there was of keanu reeves + river phoenix in my own private idaho, in the interest of completism

horseshoe, Monday, 25 June 2012 14:13 (eleven years ago) link

I had to look up who Adrian Zmed is, but that guy's face otm.

how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Monday, 25 June 2012 14:14 (eleven years ago) link

esp keanu in river's edge

http://www.freewebs.com/mzkisza/min.jpg

hubba

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 25 June 2012 14:16 (eleven years ago) link

I can support that.

I've only ever liked brooding wise guys, I guess. This preference is probably not serving me that well in my adult life.

how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Monday, 25 June 2012 14:19 (eleven years ago) link

also esai morales in la bamba, the violent drunken aspiring cartoonist with a heart of gold

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 25 June 2012 14:22 (eleven years ago) link

that was more middle school though

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 25 June 2012 14:23 (eleven years ago) link

I harbored a little crush on Lou Diamond Philips for a while. Weird.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Monday, 25 June 2012 14:25 (eleven years ago) link

River's Edge Keanu OTM

carl agatha, Monday, 25 June 2012 14:36 (eleven years ago) link

The Monster Squad kid looks like a younger version of Jacob the Shirtless Twilight Werewolf whose real name I cannot remember.

carl agatha, Monday, 25 June 2012 14:36 (eleven years ago) link

Taylor Lautner or something like that I think.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Monday, 25 June 2012 14:37 (eleven years ago) link

Why did I know that? I've never even seen any of the movies. Weird.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Monday, 25 June 2012 14:37 (eleven years ago) link

http://gossip-juice.com/images/2011/Taylor-lautner.jpg

carl agatha, Monday, 25 June 2012 14:38 (eleven years ago) link

Yeah, Taylor Lautner. I should know because I've seen all the damn movies.

carl agatha, Monday, 25 June 2012 14:38 (eleven years ago) link

FFM, i srsly was so close to posting about james deen in this thread last night

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Monday, 25 June 2012 14:40 (eleven years ago) link

Whenever I think of Adrian Zmed I picture him with a shirtless, with a bandana around his head, playing the saxophone. ???

carl agatha, Monday, 25 June 2012 14:41 (eleven years ago) link

roxy: I was too busy ;) seriously though I'm in love and my husband is away and I am going to show him some videos ASAP, he will be so excited to see me finally get into this haha

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Monday, 25 June 2012 14:43 (eleven years ago) link

Carl: I read that as banana and thought 'that is VERY specific'!

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Monday, 25 June 2012 14:43 (eleven years ago) link

It's still pretty specific, just not as bizarre.

carl agatha, Monday, 25 June 2012 14:44 (eleven years ago) link

Is that the porn guy? He looks better there. Sort of.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Monday, 25 June 2012 14:45 (eleven years ago) link

Maybe you need to see him, err, in action.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Monday, 25 June 2012 14:45 (eleven years ago) link

this is making me want to watch river's edge reeeeeal bad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB7nJv16v3s

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 25 June 2012 14:45 (eleven years ago) link

jim jim jim

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 25 June 2012 14:46 (eleven years ago) link

xp <3 omfg
it doesn't hurt that he looks like a guy I took home for a one-night stand just out of high school. Turned out he was a virgin, but he didn't tell me at the time. He ALSO had a 2 year girlfriend who had dumped him (but didn't intend for him to go out and find me..) and that was big drama. but seriously, I'll take all the skinny brown haired boys thanks.

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Monday, 25 June 2012 14:46 (eleven years ago) link

that's him E! apparently he does porn parodies too, I have yet to see any of this.

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Monday, 25 June 2012 14:47 (eleven years ago) link

i saw the seinfeld one, it was hilarious

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Monday, 25 June 2012 14:48 (eleven years ago) link

FFM in the first pic you posted I was sort of thinking he reminded me of your A.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Monday, 25 June 2012 14:48 (eleven years ago) link

important reading http://100interviews.com/post/7046660690/7

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Monday, 25 June 2012 14:51 (eleven years ago) link

Seinfeld is what I am excited(? Intrigued?) to see! And yes E, I have a type and I stick to that type. Most of my exes could be brothers. :) Also does that mean you don't find A hot? Catfight!

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Monday, 25 June 2012 14:51 (eleven years ago) link

Hahaha no, not at all. Like Laurel said, it's the weird look on his face in the first pic that was off-putting.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Monday, 25 June 2012 14:53 (eleven years ago) link

His look is not for me at all in any pic, but I'm glad someone likes him. It's only fair, really.

how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Monday, 25 June 2012 14:54 (eleven years ago) link

xp that's fair! I didn't want to GIS him at work even with safe search off so I got the first clear shot I found & closed the window!

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Monday, 25 June 2012 15:04 (eleven years ago) link

that was a fun article, roxy. I like goofs.

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Monday, 25 June 2012 15:05 (eleven years ago) link

apparently i like sad scared stoned teens in the 80s (warning contains nudity)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpRxZB0Op9o&feature=related

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 25 June 2012 15:15 (eleven years ago) link

It's on Netflix streaming, FYI!

carl agatha, Monday, 25 June 2012 15:41 (eleven years ago) link

excellent casting in that movie imo

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 25 June 2012 15:53 (eleven years ago) link

you all can have Keanu, Crispin Glover was my fave!

sarahell, Monday, 25 June 2012 17:22 (eleven years ago) link

like I feel that my transition from pre-teen to real teenager was when i decided Crispin Glover was more desirable than Michael J Fox in Back to the Future.

sarahell, Monday, 25 June 2012 17:25 (eleven years ago) link

everyone in that movie has his/her own ws charm, i'd say

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 25 June 2012 17:28 (eleven years ago) link

well almost
not the little kids

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 25 June 2012 17:29 (eleven years ago) link

haha true! And that def. includes Dennis Hopper

sarahell, Monday, 25 June 2012 17:31 (eleven years ago) link

http://www.boyactors.org.uk/actors/115.jpg

This kid played an asshole kid in like every movie that called for an asshole kid.

carl agatha, Monday, 25 June 2012 17:38 (eleven years ago) link

hahaha omg

that kid!

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Monday, 25 June 2012 17:38 (eleven years ago) link

He totally did and the casting was perfect because he just looks like a complete asshole. It's true.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Monday, 25 June 2012 17:38 (eleven years ago) link

hahaha omg

that kid!

― (✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Monday, June 25, 2012 10:38 AM (47 seconds ago)

sarahell, Monday, 25 June 2012 17:39 (eleven years ago) link

Poor guy. Kirk Cameron and that snotnose from Whose the Boss are getting centerfold spreads in Teen Beat and Joshua John Miller gets immolated in Near Dark and typecast as that asshole kid.

carl agatha, Monday, 25 June 2012 17:51 (eleven years ago) link

omg Halloween 3! I loved that movie

sarahell, Monday, 25 June 2012 17:54 (eleven years ago) link

I dunno, I think he made good choices considering the long run. Dude's got a much cooler legacy even if he will always be the mouthy asshole kid brother.

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 25 June 2012 18:58 (eleven years ago) link

Ha ha, LL, I'm impressed that you manage to remember how to spell Marty Willson-Piper. (My former housemate had the most tortured and complicated, um... crush isn't even the right word, on him.)

Damn, this thread moves fast when I'm at work and can't answer.

I know the subject has moved on, but there was a throwaway comment up there that did kinda make me think, about the weird cognitive tricks that the mind plays on you, with regards to ageing.

Because it's funny, Blur *don't* look really young to me, on this thread. They look like, well, Blur. And I get the same thing when I look at pictures over the years of Thom Yorke - I can usually tell what year it is by his haircut, but I don't usually think "he looks really young there" even in the ones where he's like, 22. (OK, there's one where he's 15 that I think "jailbait... but still would.) I feel like I'm the age that I was when I first saw that photo, and he is about my age.

But then, with other actors posted on this thread, who are the same sort of age, I think "jesus christ, how can you perve over him, that is an CHILDE!"

But I think it doesn't happen with Blur and Radiohead, because I've been following them for 20 years, and they have kind of aged along with me. The same way that when I look at photos of my family from, like, 1985, I don't think "oh god we're all children" I just think "oh that's my cousin, I remember that Christmas."

Am I the only one that gets that? Does that particular cognitive trick only really work on people that you have been looking at (or looking at pictures at) continually for the whole of the aging process?

p.s. I don't like that porn star at all myself, but compared to what straight-porn dudes usually look like, yes, vast improvement.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Monday, 25 June 2012 19:16 (eleven years ago) link

loooool thank you! i loved the lower half of his face a lot!

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 25 June 2012 19:25 (eleven years ago) link

He had a sassy mouth. And sassy things came out of it. Shame about the butt-chin, though.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Monday, 25 June 2012 19:28 (eleven years ago) link

Wait, one of the album covers, he was wearing a ponytail, so you could see his whole face!

(I remember this clearly, because my housemate had a photo of me sitting on the sofa, holding up said album cover pretending to be him.)

He was not bad looking. He was just hilariously pretentious. Romantic Gypsy Kin-gah and all.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Monday, 25 June 2012 19:29 (eleven years ago) link

Ha ha, Art Attack!

You can still only see half his face, mind. Just a different half from usual.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_vKD7WiDMrVM/TJNusLoeMqI/AAAAAAAABQM/Ultp8_VMPco/s1600/marty.jpg

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Monday, 25 June 2012 19:30 (eleven years ago) link

hahaha this is the one i was thinking of

http://www.vinylvendors.com/Pictures/c/h/church15491.jpg

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 25 June 2012 19:31 (eleven years ago) link

still no shame in his game even today

http://www.popmusicology.com/images/thechurch1meg0031.jpg

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 25 June 2012 19:32 (eleven years ago) link

that ponytail pic is kinda embarrassing on account of the earrings
i don't like super clean looking dudes

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 25 June 2012 19:33 (eleven years ago) link

Ooh, I remember that one. I remember this one the best, though...

http://en.smalltownromanceblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/gaf-marty.jpg

Do not under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES google what he looks like now. Mountain man! HAHAHAHHAHAHA x-post

(I like the earrings. I like the ponytail, too. I have always loved ponytails on men, it's a ~thing~)

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Monday, 25 June 2012 19:34 (eleven years ago) link

http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/5800000/Nick-Cave-Friends-nick-cave-5885461-450-320.jpg

This picture did a lot for me when I was 19.

chupacabra seeds (Abbbottt), Monday, 25 June 2012 21:31 (eleven years ago) link

Aw Rowland, bless. Such a loss.

Pureed Moods (Trayce), Monday, 25 June 2012 23:10 (eleven years ago) link

I've heard rumours they'll be in a movie (non porn!?) together. I CAN'T WAIT.

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Tuesday, 26 June 2012 12:10 (eleven years ago) link

Yep. A Bret Easton Ellis flick apparently.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Tuesday, 26 June 2012 12:12 (eleven years ago) link

As soon as I saw the sirens I knew/hoped it was James. I've got to get over this crush, it's silly.

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Tuesday, 26 June 2012 12:14 (eleven years ago) link

ok so i watched river's edge again. exceeded my expectations tbh. i had forgotten that keanu (1) was so angry (the scene where he gets interrogated by the police is great, you've got FOOD EATER!)and (2) them moral center of the movie, aided by the stunning Ione Skye, who basically every hip young lady with long hair tries to look like now, amirite?

i had also forgotten the DOUBLE down by the river stories (John's and Feck's) and how they talked about it, and wondered if people recognized this as a classic murder ballad plot back when the movie came out, or?

also the music was great. the end.

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Tuesday, 26 June 2012 15:45 (eleven years ago) link

the moral center, not them!
oops

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Tuesday, 26 June 2012 15:45 (eleven years ago) link

theres some real bad acting in that movie

crispin ftw

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 26 June 2012 15:46 (eleven years ago) link

i love it when the mom freaks out at the top of the stairs

keanu is really ott but that's part of what i like about it. the cartoonish behavior of teenagers is cartoonish, right? maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan.

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Tuesday, 26 June 2012 15:55 (eleven years ago) link

i feel like keanu is one of the best actors in that movie, sadly!

obv dhop and crispin are good

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 26 June 2012 15:56 (eleven years ago) link

i guess all teenagers are acting, so i couldn't really see the difference between acting for the movie and acting because they were real life living breathing teenagers

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Tuesday, 26 June 2012 15:58 (eleven years ago) link

I feel like Alex James has slimmed down for this whole Olympics/rooftop show splash. Also I want to go to this 'feastival' he and Jamie are putting on but that's unlikely. ;_;

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/181160_351446408260970_424341239_n.jpg
hubba hubba

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Tuesday, 26 June 2012 17:03 (eleven years ago) link

college radio station was playing a song off Phantasmagoria earlier, which reminded me of another teen crush:

http://resiman.bravehost.com/myPictures/0023.jpg

sarahell, Tuesday, 26 June 2012 20:43 (eleven years ago) link

his last feastival was a huge disaster wasnt it??

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 26 June 2012 21:11 (eleven years ago) link

Dunno, never heard of it! Things only enter my radar when Blur are involved. :)

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Tuesday, 26 June 2012 21:35 (eleven years ago) link

Vanian is still not bad looking! But looks strangely like John Cusack these days.

Pureed Moods (Trayce), Tuesday, 26 June 2012 22:03 (eleven years ago) link

omg he does look like John Cusack now!

sarahell, Tuesday, 26 June 2012 22:16 (eleven years ago) link

lol after I posted that pic of deen this morning I kept thinking that I remembered him from somewhere and I remembered where and, yeah, I get it.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Wednesday, 27 June 2012 01:56 (eleven years ago) link

Hah! :)
He sneaks up on you.

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Wednesday, 27 June 2012 02:04 (eleven years ago) link

yeah alex james had a feastival at his house and no one got paid and a primary school had to fire someone because they went into debt, or something

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/lostinshowbiz/2011/sep/15/day-the-festival-dream-died

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Thursday, 28 June 2012 21:11 (eleven years ago) link

oh ps that kid upthread typecast as every asshole kid ever in the 80s came up last night at trivia!!!!

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Thursday, 28 June 2012 21:12 (eleven years ago) link

Nice!

carl agatha, Thursday, 28 June 2012 21:13 (eleven years ago) link

I'm sure the organisers of the Aus Harvest festival might have had words with him about the name too, perhaps. lol.

Pureed Moods (Trayce), Friday, 29 June 2012 01:25 (eleven years ago) link

Welp, my parents are still crazy about weight, notably everyone else's, including famous people on tv.

Watching The Pelican Brief, my dad says of Julia Roberts, "By the time she made this movie, she was already not thin anymore." (This is nonsense, her chin was sharp enough to cause bodily harm to the other actors and possibly the furniture.)

My mother told me I could lose weight if I "worked on portion control."

My dad said if I stopped eating doughnuts (I was eating a doughnut at that moment), my work-outs & activities would go further. I told him yes, but my life would also be terribly sad.

To all of which, I say: FFFFF UUUUU!!!

---

Thanks. I just needed to get that off my chest.

how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 14:25 (eleven years ago) link

Blehh.

tokyo rosemary, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 14:27 (eleven years ago) link

oh, man, Laurel. fwiw it took me about three years to wean my mother off making unsolicited remarks about my weight and how I could lose it. but she has stopped, unbelievably. i wish i could stop her from talking about how disgustingly fat she is around me, but i guess that's her business. anyway, i'm sorry, but i found that telling my mother it was inappropriate for her to police my body and that i wouldn't respond to any such comments in the future eventually worked. it took a long time.

horseshoe, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 14:30 (eleven years ago) link

that was two separate thoughts: i'm sorry your parents pulled that on you. and also, this is what i did that eventually worked on my mother.

horseshoe, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 14:31 (eleven years ago) link

Would probably have just taken the doughnut and mashed it into his forehead.

But that would have involved the loss of lovely delicious doughnut, so...

Blehh indeed.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 14:32 (eleven years ago) link

haha i like your way better, WCC

horseshoe, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 14:32 (eleven years ago) link

Sounds like my parents. :(

I was eating some froyo last weekend while walking around and realized that I was really self-conscious about doing so and felt like people were judging me for eating yogurt. I know that sounds crazy but this is what happens when you've dealt with parents who say those sort of things and incidents like when I was about 14 and enjoying a cone while walking down the street with friends in Fire Island and some fucking meathead I didn't even know shouted at me "I don't think you need that, sweetheart".

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 14:33 (eleven years ago) link

It's okay! I quipped back and ate another doughnut! What is probably worse for me than being burdened by them about my weight, is the anger that I carry instead about their small-mindedness. It makes me window-punching, fight-starting mad.

how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 14:33 (eleven years ago) link

Also neither one of them could bike 5 miles, drink for 5 hours, bike home, and then get up early to highland dance in another state, in the sun, all day.

how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 14:34 (eleven years ago) link

I basically trained my mother out of making those kinds of comments by putting the phone down every time she started in on them. This does not work if your parents are there in person.

Reminds me, I did mean to post a copy of Health At Every Size to my Mum, as I have mostly got her to stop fat-shaming me, but talking about herself is another story. :-/

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 14:35 (eleven years ago) link

Parents are so hard to deal with. I worry about having a daughter in the future because I know I'll have to work really hard at not passing along my own issues and even having to acknowledge that makes me sad.

TBH my parents have been better in recent years. I think though that's mostly because my mother realized how completely fucked up I am about this stuff when I started coming home for visits and immediately asking how I looked and if I lost weight. Every single time. She hasn't really said anything to me lately. Actually, she commented on how she didn't understand why I was so obsessed with weight and appearance since she never told me that was the most important thing. To a certain extent she's right that she didn't but I do think she underestimates the toll that certain attitudes and comments can have over time.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 14:38 (eleven years ago) link

Laurel, it used to make me burn with unexpressed anger when my parents said these things to me. as an adult i just started expressing the anger. that wasn't particularly effective in making my mom stop but it did make me feel better. and then after i had gotten mad one million times i did what WCC did--end the conversation if she got on that topic.

horseshoe, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 14:40 (eleven years ago) link

generally i feel bad after i yell at my mom, but i was buoyed by the righteousness of my indignation in this case, tbh.

horseshoe, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 14:41 (eleven years ago) link

It got a lot easier to end the conversation and move on, after doing that thing that you say, Laurel - point out what your body can actually do.

My mum stopped clucking her tongue about me eating chips and ice cream in Cornwall after she saw me walk a 7 mile hike along the coast in an afternoon, then still pop out to buy us takeaway afterwards.

It's often about parents' own fears. For my Mum, perhaps this is legitimate, as she has genuine mobility issues (but I'm not so sure that those are weight related as she believes - or has been told.) But that whole "my body does what I need it to" is a great STFU method.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 14:44 (eleven years ago) link

I don't feel bad, my mom is the source of fully half this shit. We were talking about a young woman they know who is smart, and pleasant, and successful, and my mom said, "It's so sad, she's obviously built just like her mother." Of my brother's ex-girlfriend, she said, "Oh, she was never thin, and she's going to be huge, she's going to be her mother all over again" so obviously my mom's brain is taken over by a selective insanity about inheriting weight problems.

how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 14:47 (eleven years ago) link

"weight" "problems" FUCKING A, THEY'VE GOT MY BRAIN NOW TOO HELLLLLLLLP

how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 14:47 (eleven years ago) link

I was eating some froyo last weekend while walking around and realized that I was really self-conscious about doing so and felt like people were judging me for eating yogurt. I know that sounds crazy but this is what happens when you've dealt with parents who say those sort of things and incidents like when I was about 14 and enjoying a cone while walking down the street with friends in Fire Island and some fucking meathead I didn't even know shouted at me "I don't think you need that, sweetheart".

― (✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Tuesday, July 3, 2012 10:33 AM (23 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

soooo terrible. similar things happened to me when i was at a super awkward age and it had a lifelong effect.

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:01 (eleven years ago) link

when i was a dancer at age 14, I was 5'7", 130 lbs. a dance mom (not even a teacher) took me and another girl aside and told us we should lose weight if we didn't want to embarrass the rest of the team.

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:03 (eleven years ago) link

That's the kind of thing that makes my inner stroppy 14 year old want to travel back in time and punch her for you. >:-(

(Or mash a doughnut in her face.)

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:04 (eleven years ago) link

i never told my mom about that, to this day, cause i was scared she would just agree and put me on a diet or something

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:04 (eleven years ago) link

laurel i just saw this but i KNEW this would happen! i pray to something or other that your mom never sees this, but she is BANANAS about talking about weight. she made me self-conscious!
i am glad you are reacting in the way that you are, even if it is frustrating.

small people fret about their weight too, we have all had these experiences. it's upsetting.

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:06 (eleven years ago) link

upsetting in its pervasiveness, i mean

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:10 (eleven years ago) link

When my dad felt qualified to pass judgment on a Hollywood star who has been kinda famously thin, in a movie that was, what, like 20 years old?? from the comfort of his spacious living room couch in front of a big-screen tv (which had the aspect ratio off, btw, which is probably why she seemed "wide" if at all), I just wanted to hit him with bricks until he was sorry enough for me to feel like stopping.

how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:17 (eleven years ago) link

It's often about parents' own fears.

Whoa, yeah, that is super true. I wrote some examples but it felt like therapy but this has been OTM in my experience with my mom.

Anyway, for all of her issues that she tried hard to foist on me during my childhood, my mom is a pretty reasonable person and she loves me a lot so the last time I regained all the weight I lost on a diet and she started in with the concern-trolling, I just told her that I am never going on another diet again, and that my weight was not now nor would it ever be an appropriate topic for discussion. And to her credit, she dropped it.

Ongoing training includes me telling her that it's not okay to use "fat" as an insult against someone that she is angry at (Actual conversation: "The problem isn't that he is fat, Mom. The problem is that he is an asshole." "He's a fat asshole!"), that she needs to stop calling herself fat because she used to wear a size 4 and now, at 63, wears a six or sometimes *gasp* an 8, or at least stop doing that around me.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:21 (eleven years ago) link

Haha I just realized that my mom concern-trolls the ENTIRE WORLD about their weight. "It's so sad that she's freakishly successful and happy and yet larger than a size 10."

how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:23 (eleven years ago) link

Laurel, yeah that is just straight up ridiculous. What happens when you say something, because I know you do?

Your parents are really awesome and industrious people, but they don't seem to have a real appreciation for diversity of lifestyle, yknow? I've been fortunate that my parents accepted a long time ago to expect me to do my own thing instead of what they or other people think I should be doing and that this will NEVER CHANGE so they have to either love me anyway, or stop talking to me. Fortunately, they continue to choose to put up with me.

Carl, your patience is an inspiration.

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:24 (eleven years ago) link

yeah my mom is a big lady and her mom was a really tiny lady. i know she essentially had an eating disorder in high school ("before it was called that"). she once criticized beyonce's thighs when she popped up on TV. i was in hell

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:27 (eleven years ago) link

My strategy for when my parents ask about my weight is to act like it's not something I've ever heard of before. "Oh what? Weight? I'm not sure. Who knows? I don't really think about it." Though they're pretty nice about it and I think they both think it's one of those small talk topics like the weather.

chupacabra seeds (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:27 (eleven years ago) link

They're not so much into diversity at all! I went to the beach w my mom and a group of young people was next to us and some of them were not white and some of them were not thin and my mom said, "Those must be camp counselors from Local Fine Arts Camp. They're not from here." And I realized on layover in Cleveland that one way you know you're out of West Michigan is that there are non-white people in public again.

Which is not to erase the lives of non-white people in W MI. Just feeling cynical.

how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:30 (eleven years ago) link

xp A lot of my mom's anxiety about my appearance (and personality) came from a place of "SHE WILL NEVER FIND A MAN" anxiety, and since Jeff hasn't divorced my fat ass, I think she's mellowed on the topic some anyway. Also: therapy forever

carl agatha, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:30 (eleven years ago) link

"Oh what? Weight? I'm not sure. Who knows? I don't really think about it."

In my case, this isn't a lie. I threw out my bathroom scales (which were notoriously off - they used to make my bandmates cry. And most fucked up of all, these were given to my by my then-boyfriend's mother in a really bizarre OOC bit of meanness, but she probably didn't mean it as meanness) 3 years ago and I have not known my weight since then. I go on the scales at my doctor backwards. I've just found weight concern-trolling so damaging, I just literally do not want to know.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:30 (eleven years ago) link

i feel like my sis and i get the most guff from my mom (in general, not about weight) and we are the two without kids.

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:33 (eleven years ago) link

x-post oh god don't even get me going on "she will never find a man" anxiety.

I am overweight. I am single and planning on staying that way. I am a complete failure of humanity. It's so hard to decouple these thoughts.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:34 (eleven years ago) link

I worry way more about getting old (and therefore less desirable) than fat. My body aging makes me pretty sad, actually, because there's no one who remembers me when I was young and had no stretch marks or cellulite and was fresh and blushy and whatever young people are. Anyone I meet from now on can only know me as I am now, which is less lovely and more used-up than I was then. They can love me for my mind instead, but my body will always be a compromise. This actually had me falling apart a little on Saturday.

Welcome to my therapy!

how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:35 (eleven years ago) link

In my experience a thing that's just as bad as the negative comments about weight is the amount of praise that people (parents and otherwise) give to other people who have lost weight. From the reactions of people the two times that I lost significant amounts of weight in my life you would have thought I'd won a freaking noble prize or something.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:35 (eleven years ago) link

Yeah for real!

chupacabra seeds (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:38 (eleven years ago) link

It just serves to reinforce the whole skinny is good/fat is bad, diets are good and being successful at one makes you a disciplined and worth person stuff which in turn has made me have an extremely fucked up atttitude towards food which are all either "good" or "bad" in my mind. Not in taste, mind you, but in value. I hate this shit and the sheer about of time it takes up in my thoughts/life etc. Bah.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:39 (eleven years ago) link

It's fraught for everyone, that much I know for sure.

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:40 (eleven years ago) link

it = this issue of bodies/eating/foods/other people

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:40 (eleven years ago) link

I know I have said it before but the amount of praise my mom gets for having a weird, mysterious degenerative disease that's cause her to slowly drop more and more weight makes me absolutely vitriolic. She's done nothing in her life but help others and it's those same recipients of that help who aren't praising her for her selfless volunteerism, but for losing weight. Which comes with it a lost ability to carry things or stand for long periods of time.

chupacabra seeds (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:40 (eleven years ago) link

body policing is so fucking awful. i'm thankful that my family isn't that bad (or that direct) with weight issues, anyway. what hell.

my mom was going on vacation in alaska and was commenting on her 'blubber' and how she'd fit right in with the whales they'd be watching and...wtf. she's become a size 10 these days and is 70 yrs old. i should have pointed out to her that she wears the same size as me, but i'm always just so boggled at such comments that i don't respond.

many xps "more used-up than I was then." oh god i hate this term.

JuliaA, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:43 (eleven years ago) link

hey can i share something that is not related just as a small intermission?

i have been sorting this huge box of photos and found a bunch of pics of political people and volunteers and parties and meetings from the late 70s/early 80s so i have been posting the pics here http://campaigners70sand80s.tumblr.com/

peruse if you like to look at unprofessional snapshots of natural 70s people engaging with each other

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:44 (eleven years ago) link

x-post to Abbott - Yeah, you have. It's so completely fucked up and infuriating. It makes me really sad for you/your mom. Sometimes I think I could seriously write a book detailing the differences in the way people treat you and the things they think it's OK to do/say when you're skinny v. chubby (The fact that I'm 5'10" (well nearly) and the largest I ever was was a 16 is a whole other fucking issue that def says something fucked up about our expectations of women and weight).

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:46 (eleven years ago) link

LL that's a great tumblr! I love old pics and I love your love for old pics. When I worked at a newspaper at age 18 my favorite thing was raiding the box of ancient, unclaimed photos. They're not at my house but when I get them back I should post some of them.

chupacabra seeds (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:46 (eleven years ago) link

nice arms, eh?

Yeah, I love that shit. Otherwise discarded photos of real people. Thanks for looking!

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:47 (eleven years ago) link

xps shit, abbott. that's awful about your mom.

(i went thru a size 2 phase thanks to my health ish and SO many ppl said i looked great. ugh. i looked absolutely skeletal, and i knew it, but it fucked with my head.)

JuliaA, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:48 (eleven years ago) link

One of my very first jobs was scanning fingerprints for the NY DCJS. It was an awful job, but the mug shots from old arrest records almost made up for it. We did a box from the 30s/40s that was just incredible.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:48 (eleven years ago) link

Woah, that's awesome.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:49 (eleven years ago) link

In my experience a thing that's just as bad as the negative comments about weight is the amount of praise that people (parents and otherwise) give to other people who have lost weight.

O! T! M!

So like five years ago I took myself out of the game and quit dieting and also decided that I wasn't going to participate in diet talk (or I'm so fat conversations, or I was so bad I ate a brownie conversations). And it is SO CONFUSING to people! It's kind of hilarious, actually, although refusing to engage in these conversations and letting the other people be confused by it goes against all of my training and inclination as a person who makes social situations work.

xp that dude looks like jjjusten a little bit.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:49 (eleven years ago) link

lol I was thinking he looks like Jason Lee but Jjjusten looks like Jason Lee so that makes sense.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:50 (eleven years ago) link

Ha, yes.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:50 (eleven years ago) link

Whoa WCC mugshots? that kind of thing totally makes me drool.

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:50 (eleven years ago) link

my personal favorite

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6ad0snN2X1rzge1ho1_500.jpg

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:51 (eleven years ago) link

Well YEAH! He's cute even by contemporary standards.

how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:51 (eleven years ago) link

That guy is cute.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:51 (eleven years ago) link

lol x-post

he has a nice smile

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:51 (eleven years ago) link

Lots of those campaigners are cute!

chupacabra seeds (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:52 (eleven years ago) link

Maybe I just like the '70s Kurt Vonnegut look

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6adk2Pw0H1rzge1ho1_r1_500.jpg

chupacabra seeds (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:53 (eleven years ago) link

some more mugshots for you, LL, here: http://thehairpin.com/2012/06/are-you-allowed-to-smile

䷡ (c sharp major), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:54 (eleven years ago) link

I do too -- my love for Donald Sutherland in the 70s is well documented, I'm afraid.

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:55 (eleven years ago) link

Another topic: I went on vacation by myself recently for the first time ever in my life and it was so incredibly fun. Even though on the plane I kept thinking of crazy Lise's encounter with a macrobiotics flame in The Driver's Seat. Staying in a hotel by myself, flying by myself, doing what I wanted when I liked – all a blast. I think if I ever get in a relationship again I'll still take vacations by myself. I like the feeling of being a woman just having fun by myself and deciding shit!

chupacabra seeds (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:56 (eleven years ago) link

OMG there are few things I love in life as much as taking vacations by myself. BIG FAN, lifelong devotee!

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:58 (eleven years ago) link

Nice work.

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:58 (eleven years ago) link

My aunt in Germany does that all the time! A couple of years ago she went to Egypt and London by herself both for a week. She's married but I guess just likes alone time and I'd guess my uncle probably appreciates it too. I think it's pretty awesome.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 15:59 (eleven years ago) link

I love flying by myself! I've never GONE anywhere by myself, though; I'm always meeting people where I'm going. I tell myself that's one of the reasons I haven't traveled more widely: because I'd be going alone and it makes me sad/uncomfortable--well, that and the expense.

how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 16:04 (eleven years ago) link

I'm at the point where I literally could no longer imagine having to travel with someone when I go on holiday.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 16:05 (eleven years ago) link

I love solo vacations! I have and will continue to take them even though I am coupled. I kind of treat business travel as solo vacation, even though it is for work. Still get to fly alone, hotel alone, choose what to do on off hours, etc.

quincie, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 16:11 (eleven years ago) link

I went to Europe, Asia Minor, the Middle East and North Africa for over a year by myself when I was 19-20. Made lifelong friends. Beat going to college.

kate78, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 16:21 (eleven years ago) link

I've traveled alone but never gone on actual vacation alone. I don't know if I would. Not because I wouldn't want to (I like doing things alone, generally) but because of time/resources. Plus, we haven't gone on that many vacations together thanks to finances and then law school and then introductory levels of vacation time.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 16:22 (eleven years ago) link

Meaning that going on vacation together is still enough of a novelty that I don't want to not do that.

I like the idea of vacationing alone, however. Maybe some day.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 16:23 (eleven years ago) link

ugh, i am so so sorry about your body-policing moms - it's bad enough that too many acquaintances and random strangers do it, but your own mother? I feel embarrassedly fortunate in this regard in that my mom always thinks i look nice when i put nominal effort into my appearance.

sarahell, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 16:24 (eleven years ago) link

xp - i can vouch that it helps to have a partner who needs extended periods of alone time too

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 16:25 (eleven years ago) link

Ugh my dad is pretty terrible about just saying whatever comes into his head which often includes remarks about people's looks (it's a weird habit, he'll also just walk around saying out loud the names of stores and signs he sees and 50% of the time make some dad-pun on them). So after 18 months of not seeing my parents I was staying with them and my dad was constantly making comments about every female presenter on tv, all appearance-related so it took me about 10 mins to flip. He commented 'why is she wearing so much make-up?' and I was all BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE YOU JUST SIT THERE CRITICISING EVERY PORE OF THEIR BODY EVERY MINUTE and to his credit he did shut up for a bit after that.

kinder, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 17:03 (eleven years ago) link

thankful (well not really thankful) that my mom focuses on hair policing.

quincie, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 18:43 (eleven years ago) link

She's all passive aggressive about it, like "so that's what you're doing with your hair these days!"

quincie, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 18:44 (eleven years ago) link

When my mom saw my most recent haircut she said, "So you're back to the Ramona Quimby." <3

chupacabra seeds (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 18:46 (eleven years ago) link

here is a topic i relate to

which brings me to an interesting point!

yesterday someone told me "i like what you've done with your hair" -- i hadn't seen him for a while, and he doesn't know me all that well, and i am not easy to get to know ANYway but relations with him have been strained more often than not. and he says, "i like what you've done with your hair."

huh?

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 18:47 (eleven years ago) link

I don't know how to navigate the possible subtext of that. At all.

how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 18:59 (eleven years ago) link

I think it just means he thought your hair looked nice?

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 19:00 (eleven years ago) link

I find that very difficult to believe for some reason, but I guess there's really no telling what he meant since I didn't ask him. I just changed the subject. I don't often feel awkward around people, but something about that particular moment made me really feel weird and uncomf. Not because I thought he was being sincere, but because it sounded like a robotic thing to say.

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 19:01 (eleven years ago) link

It also sounds like he's at least 20 years older than you and it's 1946.

how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 19:05 (eleven years ago) link

"I like what you've done with your hair" just sounds like one of those "how to win friends and influence people" kinds of tips, you know, that they learn in smarmy books. Start conversations with people you find difficult to talk to by leading with a compliment.

Anyway, I was just thinking about this thread on the way home.

And I was remembering how, when I was in my late teens and early 20s, I learned to bond with other women by putting down our own appearances. That whole thing of "my thighs are fat" "oh no my thighs are much fatter" as a way of bonding with other women over one's insecurities.

And I was thinking about what we have been doing on this thread today, which is bonding over how destructive it is to face body policing, and coming up with solutions and solidarity of how to resist it, and bonding over our experiences and how we've overcome them (or tried.)

And it's funny how it's a similar sort of bonding experience, except that whole thing when I was 17, that used to make me actually feel kinda yucky at the end of it. And the thing that we have been doing today, it actually makes me feel better. But both through the process of bonding through sort of complaining about something. But what a difference it makes, to complain about pressure, instead about our actual selves.

And I just wanted to say, that's awesome, and thank you ladies.

And that is 5 paragraphs in a row I have started with the word "and" which is a total grammar sin but I'm not going to change it.

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 19:10 (eleven years ago) link

<3<3<3

carl agatha, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 19:13 (eleven years ago) link

Yeah that shit always made me straight up uncomfortable. Like I know you're supposed to say "oh no you look gorgeous look at my [flaw] it's worse" but it just feels totally phony.

chupacabra seeds (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 19:13 (eleven years ago) link

"That must be difficult for you, but I wouldn't know because I'm fucking awesome." *jumps in helicopter, flies away*

carl agatha, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 19:15 (eleven years ago) link

^ how I would respond to those things if I was an asshole with a helicopter

carl agatha, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 19:16 (eleven years ago) link

haha believe it or not no one likes that
it doesn't help that my copter says DEA on the side

chupacabra seeds (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 19:16 (eleven years ago) link

No one also likes when you pantomime casting a fishing rod and reeling in a fish
No one likes a wiseass

chupacabra seeds (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 19:17 (eleven years ago) link

xp I guess I should stop telling people that I like what they've done with their hair - which I have employed when a new hair style or cut has been busted out. I didn't know it was so robotic.

This thread makes me so glad I never had parents who played appearance headgames (they stuck me with every other possible kind of neurosis though) and that the geeks I hung out with weren't particularly concerned with if they were too fat or too skinny. Random school jerks were aplenty, of course, but they had lots of other reasons to pick on me (poor, too tall, out of style clothes & cars &c). The place I work now is, of course, a very superficial place and that's a bit hard, but I'm almost 30 and they're all 25 anyway so I can deal with being different. And of course, my quirkiness lends itself to descriptions of me as "creative" and "interesting" and all sorts of descriptions based less on my body type and more on my overall appearance.

Of course, my Mom was 95 pounds at 5'6" or 7" (she fed her 4 children before she ate, a financial ED if you will) my whole life and I wish she had been a bit tougher about making me exercise more or eat less, which she never did. I gain weight easily and most of my life was very sedentary. It's hard to change your life at 30 - would've preferred to start at 7 with a soccer class or something. But my parents wanted me to be free to choose the way my life turned out, which is tough to do before you've learned life lessons! Damned hippies.

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 19:21 (eleven years ago) link

But what a difference it makes, to complain about pressure, instead about our actual selves.
amen

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 19:28 (eleven years ago) link

totally

interesting re: overall appearance. i was also thinking, while reading the boobs/bras thread, about common lines we hear about showing off our "best assets" to detract from our apparently less-than-stellar assets. which annoys me, breaks our bodies/selves into parts to accent and draw attention to. like "you should show off your ____ more!" and things like that. i mean, yes, certain cuts of clothes look good on different bodies, but i would say let that be about the whole rather than the parts. i think there are a lot of clothes out there that are really all about the parts.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 19:36 (eleven years ago) link

I wish she had been a bit tougher about making me exercise more or eat less, which she never did. I gain weight easily and most of my life was very sedentary.

In my experience, the former doesn't have a whole lot of impact on the latter.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 19:39 (eleven years ago) link

I have been and to be honest still am a chronic overeater and never got any exercise beyond walking to the bus stop. I feel that, in my experience, my parents could have kept an eye on my portions/fast food intake/between meal snacking when I was too young to really understand that one day I'd stop growing out and then up. I moved in with my Dad at 14 & can't remember him ever even suggesting we eat healthy (i.e. ANYTHING but fried or pizza'd food) more than the occasional raw veggie & dip tray.

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 19:50 (eleven years ago) link

Also, the pop. I drank at least if not more than a 2L of Coca Cola every day from 14-20. But I was washing down large portions of unhealthy food with that crap far earlier than that, even.

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Tuesday, 3 July 2012 19:51 (eleven years ago) link

I used to get a bit obsessed with coke (Coca Cola) when I was small because we NEVER had that kind of thing in, never even name-brand squash. When we visited my grandma she had this whole freaking BAR with huge bottles of coke and pop and a fridge full of chocolate. They used to let us have a glass of coke with dinner then but it was this teeeeny glass so it went in 2 seconds then I craved more and kept asking for it but it was never enough. My parents brought me up on stuff like liver and lentils and powdered milk so coke was this amazing party in my mouth.

kinder, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 20:47 (eleven years ago) link

my love for Donald Sutherland in the 70s is well documented, I'm afraid.

<3<3<3

tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, 4 July 2012 02:19 (eleven years ago) link

I have one customer who often tells me "oh you've lost weight, you look good!" I say thank you even though I haven't lost any at all.

I love when my coworkers call themselves fat cows. I say nothing but think to myself I am about 30-60 pounds more than you, why are you saying this to me and how do you think this makes me feel?

tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, 4 July 2012 02:23 (eleven years ago) link

I went to a party last year with family and old friends, and I felt like some of them were surprised I looked so good.

And I think I have mentioned that one of these women has me in her prayers for me to FIND A MAN.

tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, 4 July 2012 02:26 (eleven years ago) link

I learned to bond with other women by putting down our own appearances. That whole thing of "my thighs are fat" "oh no my thighs are much fatter" as a way of bonding with other women over one's insecurities.

this really struck a chord - i never realized that this had been a thing in my life until I read your post, which was totally A+ and otm throughout, tbh.

<3

Have any of you ever gotten the impression that a guy puts down women on TV because he thinks it makes you feel better? like he is putting down Barbie-ish or fake or "perfect" women because he is trying to express some kind of rejection of or even repulsion at idealized images of femininity? but then it actually just makes you angry because he is basically just nitpicking and being critical of even "perfect" looking women ("what does he think *I* look like?!?!")? That's been hard for me to deal with sometimes.

I pointed out to my BF when we were first dating that he sometimes criticized women for looking/being old and that that isn't acceptable/is fucked up/etc. he stopped and now points it out/corrects it in other people. i love him a lot.

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 4 July 2012 02:28 (eleven years ago) link

Aw, that is very very cute.

I do think I know what you mean with the women on TV.

I remembered another awesome instance of people being overly critical about this shit. My aunt and grandmother in Germany used to do this every time they saw me. I remember visiting once in college and showing my aunt a picture of my then boyfriend and I at a formal. I had gained about 20 pounds (and overcome an ED) since the pic and my aunt took one look at the pic and then me and said "Your figure!! What happened?!". When I lost weight they practically fell over themselves telling me how amazing I looked. Every time I used to Skype with my grandmother the first thing she'd ask me is if I was still looking after my figure.

I remember my mother once saying to me a couple years ago, "Your father is very proud of how beautiful you are". I know that she meant it as a compliment but it just made me sad. I've always got the feeling that I've let my parents down in a lot of ways (school, job, personal choices) but somehow my appearance is a great source of pride for them and if I gain weight then I feel that that's just another area where I've failed. Bah. Awful. Sorry - I know this isn't my therapy hour or anything. Just something I thought of earlier.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Wednesday, 4 July 2012 03:14 (eleven years ago) link

I love when my coworkers call themselves fat cows. I say nothing but think to myself I am about 30-60 pounds more than you, why are you saying this to me and how do you think this makes me feel?

i have a few friends that are like this. because they're my friends i do say something -- mostly trying to reassure them that they are super foxy and not fat cows and avoid self-denigration, though sometimes i'm in a mood where the self-denigration can't be avoided.

sarahell, Wednesday, 4 July 2012 04:37 (eleven years ago) link

When you guys were little and had movies or assemblies at school did you ever sit behind each other one by one and braid each other's hair? We used to do that all the time and I'd freaking love someone to play with my hair right now but don't think it's really appropriate to ask my co-worker. That said, the ass smacker would probably be down for some hair play.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Wednesday, 11 July 2012 19:44 (eleven years ago) link

I was going to say to ask the smacker!

But yes, I have a very clear memory of sitting around grooming each other like little monkeys.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 19:48 (eleven years ago) link

total mini monkeys

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Wednesday, 11 July 2012 19:50 (eleven years ago) link

Yet another way I totally fail at being a girl. :-/

Queue de Cheval (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 11 July 2012 19:51 (eleven years ago) link

Not so much at school but my two older cousins (girls) would. Me and my bff used to brush each others hair when we were living together.

Now I just make do with Ytth -the best part is I don't have to reciprocate bc he's bald.

just1n3, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 19:53 (eleven years ago) link

xp Aw, no way. Nobody can fail at being a girl, imo. It's just a thing that happens sometimes with little kids.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 19:54 (eleven years ago) link

Ha, no, I think it's just that I was basically a boy until I grew breasts. I was just never interested in that whole hair/clothes thing and probably would have thumped anyone who tried to touch my hair.

Queue de Cheval (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 11 July 2012 19:57 (eleven years ago) link

It wasn't for appearance. It just felt awesome. We also used to write on each others backs with our fingers and make one another guess what we were writing.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Wednesday, 11 July 2012 19:59 (eleven years ago) link

Yeah, see, cause of the whole dislike of being touched thing, that just sounds horrible, rather than awesome! I would have hated having someone touching my back if I couldn't see it. (Still would.)

Ah, the variability of human experience. It's interesting.

Queue de Cheval (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 11 July 2012 20:03 (eleven years ago) link

Truly!

I was a tomboy for most of my childhood, too (to the extent that some kind, concerned girls tried to stage an intervention to make me act like a girl in fourth grade (sarcasm, fyi)), but I love to be petted. Well, by certain people. Not by like, strangers on the train.

Oh god I just gave myself the creeps.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 20:08 (eleven years ago) link

me and two of my friends in first grade used to braid each others hair during story time. we all had really long hair. vivid memory.

we also used to draw pictures and write on each others backs and guess what was being written/drawn. i had forgotten that. clearly remember drawing an apple on my friend rebecca's back now

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 11 July 2012 20:40 (eleven years ago) link

I did the writing on each other backs. I must have done braiding hair.

tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 22:39 (eleven years ago) link

OMG Erica, I was just talking about the assembly hair-playing thing to my dateboi the other night, thats so freaky! We were talking about odd things we did as kiddies and I said I used to love it if someone sitting behind me in assembly started braiding/playing with my hair! I was like, 8, so didnt understand why it made me feel so ... er... NICE.

Pureed Moods (Trayce), Thursday, 12 July 2012 10:19 (eleven years ago) link

We also used to write on each others backs with our fingers and make one another guess what we were writing.

me and my brother used to do this! also a thing where you 'played a tune' on the other's back and they had to guess what it was (nigh impossible).

swaggy dog story (c sharp major), Thursday, 12 July 2012 10:27 (eleven years ago) link

Trayce - how funny!

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Thursday, 12 July 2012 10:28 (eleven years ago) link

I know right?

haha c# I did the "guess the tune" tapping thig too. Its nice to know how universal this stuff is!

Pureed Moods (Trayce), Thursday, 12 July 2012 10:30 (eleven years ago) link

I think "widespread" would perhaps be a better descriptor than "universal" ?

Queue de Cheval (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Thursday, 12 July 2012 10:43 (eleven years ago) link

well yes I meant universal in the "happens everywhere" sense rather than "to all" of course :)

Pureed Moods (Trayce), Thursday, 12 July 2012 11:07 (eleven years ago) link

there was some discussion upthread about people (mostly parents) commenting on your eating habits....just wanted to chime in and complain that i am so sick of people commenting on how much or how little i'm eating. i get hungry really quickly and frequently, but i tend not to eat a whole lot in just one sitting, so to some people (coworkers) it looks like i'm basically eating all day, since, if i'm not eating a full on meal, i'm probably snacking on some almonds or something at any given moment--and they feel free to be like WOW you sure eat a lot! And then i'm out somewhere and i eat not that much and people are like "wow, you really don't eat a lot, do you" and it BUGS ME. Especially with the latter, there is this weird sense of judgment wafting from the people who say that.

rayuela, Thursday, 12 July 2012 18:44 (eleven years ago) link

like, i feel the need to be like "no, i actually do eat like a regular person" and justify my eating!

rayuela, Thursday, 12 July 2012 18:51 (eleven years ago) link

I don't know. I find it deeply strange that someone would feel the need to comment on a colleague's eating habits. It seems completely unnecessary. But I find that usually when people comment on your eating habits, it's down to their own weird issues about food, and naught to do with you at all.

Completely unrelated, but I do feel this slight sense of, I dunno, vindication, when a person who has been giving you grief over something reveals themselves to be such a fantastical flaming douche that you actually feel something almost like relief that they dislike or disagree with you. What is the opposite of schadenfreude?

Queue de Cheval (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Thursday, 12 July 2012 19:12 (eleven years ago) link

yeah i agree it has to do more with them. still, it's happened a few times recently and now i'm like, i've had enough! just last week i was prepping food with someone all night for an event and was eating throughout the night--and then once we sat down to have a proper dinner, i ate till i was full, and she was like wow, you really don't eat a lot. i'm like, did you not see me eating like 3 slices of pizza over the course of the evening?? it has more to do with her, but still makes me feel self conscious in a way that bugs. like i'm annoyed at myself for being bugged by it, but remain bugged nonetheless.

rayuela, Thursday, 12 July 2012 19:23 (eleven years ago) link

Are they just trying to make conversation and don't know how to do small talk without turning it to food?

I usually try to remind myself that whenever some woman makes a comment about my food intake (usually along the lines of "omg, an overweight woman who dares to enjoy food and eating it!") that they have probably been on some hardcore diet of denying themselves nice things their entire life and they are projecting their anger about that onto me.

Supposedly it's actually much much healthier to eat small, frequent meals throughout the day than to have a massive meal. But I don't want to go all "this is how our ancestors on the savannah ate" etc. etc.

Queue de Cheval (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Thursday, 12 July 2012 19:28 (eleven years ago) link

yes, it's possible! (re the smalltalk) also korean culture is such that your ability to eat massive amounts of food is directly positively correlated with your ability to be awesome at life and generally a good person, so i think i have a knee-jerk thing when people comment on how much i eat.

anyway, onwards!

rayuela, Thursday, 12 July 2012 20:40 (eleven years ago) link

Onwards to dinner! Or maybe a light snack in case I accidentally have beer for dinner and regret it.

how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Thursday, 12 July 2012 20:41 (eleven years ago) link

Was this where we were talking about dermatologists ambushing patients with cosmetic treatments? Prob not but anyway, I was at the ENT today (Ear Nose Throat specialist) and after taking a hearing test they put me in an office to get the results (all is well except for slight noise induced high frequency loss LOL live music) and I looked up and there were TONS of posters and ads for shit like juvaderm and facial resurfacing and all sorts of crap to inject into your face. Blind sided!

carl agatha, Thursday, 12 July 2012 22:42 (eleven years ago) link

I was at a party today where there were a few kids and the two little girls were doing each others hair after they got out of the pool.

tokyo rosemary, Monday, 16 July 2012 02:16 (eleven years ago) link

Okay, big old trigger warning for anti-fat bullshit and all around utter BMI nonsense, but this is hilarious: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-18781786

According to the BBC I am fatter than 100% of women in my age group in the world. Y'all! I am the fattest woman in the world! I am so stoked about this. I have to think about what to do with my new found status.

carl agatha, Monday, 16 July 2012 21:29 (eleven years ago) link

Profit?

how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Monday, 16 July 2012 21:31 (eleven years ago) link

does it inspire you to move to Tonga?

sarahell, Monday, 16 July 2012 21:35 (eleven years ago) link

I have a BMI greater than 90% of other women in my age group in the world, and I am most like a person from KUWAIT, Y'ALL.

Did you know?
If everyone in the world had the same BMI as you, it would add 88,183,522 tonnes to the total weight of the world's population

FFFFFFFFF UUUUUUUUUUUU

how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Monday, 16 July 2012 21:36 (eleven years ago) link

You're most like someone from Jamaica*
* Compared with other females aged 30-44 in Jamaica
Share your result

I am totally gonna share this result, thanks BBC News

sarahell, Monday, 16 July 2012 21:36 (eleven years ago) link

FAT SHAMING AND ALSO RACIST! SEE THE REACTIONS OF BRITISH PEOPLE ON THE STREET WHEN THEY ARE COMPARED TO CITIZENS OF TONGA!

how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Monday, 16 July 2012 21:37 (eleven years ago) link

I just can't even

how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Monday, 16 July 2012 21:37 (eleven years ago) link

I shared this result, proudly tweeting that I am the fattest woman in the world. I am totally going to apologetically take up both seats on the train tonight, because I am the fattest.

A friend of mine got the result that she was fatter than 94% of Americans in her age group, but fatter than 100% of woman in her age group in the entire world. STATISTICS!

carl agatha, Monday, 16 July 2012 21:39 (eleven years ago) link

FAT SHAMING AND ALSO RACIST! SEE THE REACTIONS OF BRITISH PEOPLE ON THE STREET WHEN THEY ARE COMPARED TO CITIZENS OF TONGA!

OTM

carl agatha, Monday, 16 July 2012 21:40 (eleven years ago) link

oh wait, i actually weighed myself after a relatively sedentary weekend involving numerous beers and ice cream -- I'm as fat as a Samoan now!

AGREED THAT THIS IS GROSS

sarahell, Monday, 16 July 2012 21:43 (eleven years ago) link

Damn, I'm only fatter than 57% of US ladies and 89% of all the ladies in the world. I feel like an underachiever.

tokyo rosemary, Monday, 16 July 2012 22:29 (eleven years ago) link

i never know what I weigh. do you guys all have scales? Or just get weighed at the docs a lot?

kinder, Monday, 16 July 2012 23:09 (eleven years ago) link

It says im 50% more than other aussies. I thought aussies were all supposed to be gigantic fattybombahs so I dunno what that says considering I'm only a size 12. (thats a UK/au 12 ... US 10?)

Pureed Moods (Trayce), Monday, 16 July 2012 23:19 (eleven years ago) link

i never know what I weigh. do you guys all have scales? Or just get weighed at the docs a lot?

I stayed away from the scale for a long time. Once I became The Fattest Woman in the World and reached a stable weight, I started weighing myself sometimes at the gym just to take the power away from the number. It's been w/in ten pounds up or down of the same number for like five years. (It's also good for me to know so when I get all dysmorphic and become convinced I gained 50 pounds I check and lo. It's the same and I've just been reading women's magazines. )

That's more than you asked!

carl agatha, Monday, 16 July 2012 23:48 (eleven years ago) link

Also I generally refuse to be weighed at the doc's office but that's just to be contrary.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 17 July 2012 00:09 (eleven years ago) link

I don't have a scale and I never go to the doctor. I guess I'm just guessing based on what it's been around for at least a few years? I think I'd basically have to give up alcohol to lose much weight at this point.

how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Tuesday, 17 July 2012 00:42 (eleven years ago) link

I am below average for women in my age group in the US but fatter than %74 percent of women in the world. I am most like someone from El Salvador. This is so weird and, yes, also BS.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Tuesday, 17 July 2012 01:39 (eleven years ago) link

my results are similar to enbb except i am most like someone from grenada. this is dumber than shit

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 17 July 2012 03:14 (eleven years ago) link

Liberia.

kate78, Tuesday, 17 July 2012 03:33 (eleven years ago) link

i got liberia too.

JuliaA, Tuesday, 17 July 2012 17:22 (eleven years ago) link

The whole ting is silly.

Team Safeword (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 17 July 2012 17:24 (eleven years ago) link

Also I generally refuse to be weighed at the doc's office but that's just to be contrary.

Argh, last time I went for a blood test I got an especially arsey nurse and was forcibly put on the scales and then I wasn't allowed to have my blood test until I had uttered the magic incantation "yes I have thought about portion control"

I was also told that I had applied for the blood test WRONG which is, like, too bad, my appointment was set up (at my request) last week by the nurse who was checking my blood pressure, who by the way was a whole lot nicer than you, ma'am

I shall not be clicking on the link but I am glad you ladies have done so for me and brought me fresh lols in the process

still small voice of clam (a passing spacecadet), Tuesday, 17 July 2012 19:52 (eleven years ago) link

I wasn't allowed to have my blood test until I had uttered the magic incantation "yes I have thought about portion control"

...jesus fucking christ!!!!!!!!

just1n3, Tuesday, 17 July 2012 19:54 (eleven years ago) link

HOLY SHIT

I am speechless with rage.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 17 July 2012 20:02 (eleven years ago) link

Two doc visits ago I got a nurse who got saucy with me about my scale refusal. She kept saying, "Well, I have to take your vitals." I told her what I weighed and then told her that I was there for an intractable ear/sinus infection and my weight was irrelevant so she didn't need to weigh me. She slammed the folder shut and stalked out. Ha.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 17 July 2012 20:06 (eleven years ago) link

(fyi, kate78, RN here: yes that nurse was a dick, but some blood tests need to know your weight for the formula to be accurate)

Again, that nurse is a total dick.

kate78, Tuesday, 17 July 2012 20:08 (eleven years ago) link

The most annoying thing from my point of view was that she said we couldn't continue with the appointment until she'd filled in her form to say that I was "taking measures" about my weight, except she didn't say what measures I had to agree to, so I spent a few minutes listing things I was already doing like walking every day, to her complete indifference, until she said "well have you considered portion control?"

oh... uh, yes? is that the right answer?

I don't think I have actually "taken" any more "measures" since that appointment so it was a big success all round

xp I guess she probably did have to know my weight for the blood test measurement, but she didn't say it was for that, she just said it was to "update their records"

still small voice of clam (a passing spacecadet), Tuesday, 17 July 2012 20:10 (eleven years ago) link

unnecessarily trying to humiliate/degrade you sure as hell isn't required for an accurate blood test.

just1n3, Tuesday, 17 July 2012 20:15 (eleven years ago) link

Damn straight.

And I'm happy to get on the scale for a valid medical reason, fyi. If a nurse explains why (other than "but I need to know"), no problem! I'm not afraid of my weight. I just think it's nonsense that an adult who is not at the doctor for something weight-related needs to be weighed as a matter of course. You can tell I'm fat by looking at me (I'm practically Tongan, it turns out), you know?

It's a little bit of me taking the power back at the doc's too.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 17 July 2012 20:23 (eleven years ago) link

Here I will share a childhood anecdote: my mother has always been a little slim thing, and while looking back at pics of myself, I was anything but fat but somehow it got decided that I was. Anyway, she took me to the doc once and the nurse, who my mom knew b/c small town and my mom is a nurse, weighed me and then looked at my mom and said, "Well, I guess she gets her weight from her father."

carl agatha, Tuesday, 17 July 2012 20:30 (eleven years ago) link

Here is a representative photo of me at the time:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3240/3151636735_94542acb56.jpg

The point being, this shit runs so fucking deep, y'all. Like way down into the bottom of our brains.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 17 July 2012 20:31 (eleven years ago) link

Yes, yes it does.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Tuesday, 17 July 2012 20:32 (eleven years ago) link

ha yes i have a similar story - when i was about 10 my mother came back from a vacation (with my two younger siblings - i was left to shuffle between relatives for 4 weeks) and told me i had gotten too fat for the clothes she had bought me. i wasn't a skinny but i had TOTALLY AVERAGE body-chub, like any other 10yo kid.

nb my mother is and always has been a big, big lady.

just1n3, Tuesday, 17 July 2012 20:47 (eleven years ago) link

and i think i've told the story here before about how, 5 or 6 years later when the baby fat melted off, she ~~accused me~~ of having an eating disorder, in much the same tone/language you'd accuse someone of committing a crime.

just1n3, Tuesday, 17 July 2012 20:48 (eleven years ago) link

and while i'm here: lol @ that stupid BMI quackery - ytth went for a yearly physical and the dr pulled out the old BMI schtick and told him he was unhealthily overweight, that he needed to lose an incredible amount of weight IMMEDIATELY blah blah blah he was heading towards heart disease and diabetes blah blah blah. all this despite the fact that he has legs of solid steel and is vegan. sure enough, when his blood work came back it was perfect.

just1n3, Tuesday, 17 July 2012 20:51 (eleven years ago) link

y'know one thing I am thankful for is that my parents have generally not made a big deal about my weight

(although my dad is not always super tactful and made me totally mad one time when he was told to stop drinking by the doctor, which he did not but he did cut down, and while still eating an unhealthy diet he lost several pounds due to less booze, and was then all like, well, it is easy to lose weight! you must be eating ~secret pies~ if you are not losing weight

this was at a time when I was counting out every last calorie, and he was very insistent that I was clearly adding it up wrong because he was now the world's leading authority on weight loss - tbh I probably was fudging the figures a bit, it was just the sudden authority thing which pissed me off)

still small voice of clam (a passing spacecadet), Tuesday, 17 July 2012 21:01 (eleven years ago) link

omg justine, my baby fat turned to womanly curves and one night at dinner, my stepmother explained to my father, my younger step bro, and me about how I was clearly bulimic and should stop trying to hide all the binging and purging she was sure I was doing. (tbf, she was a completely fucked up person and I didn't live with them, so while this was pretty par for the course with her, it didn't have the same kind of long-ranging impact as it would if I had the misfortune to live with her.)

xp I bet you weren't fudging the figures at all. The narrative of "fat* people have no idea what they are actually eating" is the tip of the iceberg of gaslighting bullshit that goes on about our weight and our appetites.

*Or dieting or overweight or whatever would have been applicable (I like fat, but I know it's not for everyone).

carl agatha, Tuesday, 17 July 2012 21:06 (eleven years ago) link

I'm clearly feeling very militant about fat politics today. Sorry if I'm being to IN YOUR FACE about it. I will chill out!

carl agatha, Tuesday, 17 July 2012 21:09 (eleven years ago) link

TOO

arg

carl agatha, Tuesday, 17 July 2012 21:09 (eleven years ago) link

no i like it! stay in our faces.

my friend stopped drinking a ton of alcohol--her ex is probably a functional alcoholic, so when they broke up, she thought she would lose all this weight, no problem, and it didn't happen for her.

i too, thought i would see some difference once i stopped drinking every gd night, and no discernible physical change, except for the fact that i *felt* healthier

rayuela, Tuesday, 17 July 2012 21:18 (eleven years ago) link

yeah my mum was truly awesome at helping me adopt healthy eating habits and a positive attitude towards food... the "you're too fat" + "you have a creepy eating disorder" + "here's a double helping of the foods you find most revolting" + "you WILL stay at the table until you've eaten everything on your plate, even if that means you literally sit there till 10pm" = AWESOME YAY FOOD YAY BODY IMAGE

just1n3, Tuesday, 17 July 2012 21:25 (eleven years ago) link

like, i never actually had an eating disorder, even though i did become a dumpy teenager at around 13. at 17 i just went through a typical hormonal bump/growth/whatever and i lost 30 lbs over a really short space of time, i didn't consciously do anything to make it happen.

just1n3, Tuesday, 17 July 2012 21:27 (eleven years ago) link

I get really upset about the Terror of Childhood Obesity because of stuff like that. Kids sizes change as they grow. Kids get chubby, then hit growth spurts, or start to develop. Putting a kid on a diet when a kid needs calories and nutrition to grow is damaging physically and mentally. I mean, sure, get out and move (and build safe playgrounds and get kids asthma medication and move shitty factories out of poor neighborhoods) and make sure healthy food choices are readily available and ketchup is not a vegetable and food deserts are terrible. But "oh no kids are FAT and that is the true problem!" is just misguided and awful. Stop stigmatizing fat (and thus fat kids) and focus on actual health.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 17 July 2012 21:44 (eleven years ago) link

A lot of this comes from my personal experience, obviously, of being not particularly fat but still being tagged as The Fat Kid and just being emotionally ground down about it so that by the time my mom was like, "Hey, how about a mega fad diet for my fourth grade daughter?" I was not only excited but really good at starving myself because I was a terrible fat person who didn't deserve food.

For me, food restriction and dieting is self harm. As in, I get in a bad place emotionally for whatever reason and something flips my self-loathing switch and I immediately start planning on how hardcore I'm going to diet and how much food I'm going to deny myself.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 17 July 2012 21:49 (eleven years ago) link

of being not particularly fat but still being tagged as The Fat Kid

Proud to say I have overcome this to grow into the Fattest Woman in the World, however.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 17 July 2012 21:49 (eleven years ago) link

I hardly even knew what diets were when I was a teen. But I did worry about my non-existent belly and srsly didn't wear a bikini until I was 18 and even then only once or twice. Now you can't get me out of a bikini, tummy or no tummy. And yet I sort of mourn not ruling the beach/park/backyard in my teens and early 20s, haha... We are who we are and who we see ourselves to be...

My best/oldest friend is quite fat and has gone through unrelated health problems (hernia due to shitty c-section repair, for one) and the treatment from doctors made me want to punch someone. Interestingly, when we were growing up, she wasn't 'the fat one' and I wasn't 'the thin one' because neither of us identified w that - she called me 'straight-As since birth' and I called her 'hollywood gossip encyclopedia' - lol. I think she's just really good at rolling her eyes and surviving the prejudice. Even her (often superficial, alcoholic) mom couldn't get it through her head when my friend got married 9 years ago that it was real love (and remains so) - made me realize even more so that judgment/prejudice has v little to do with the person being judged and everything to do with the one who's judging (and the culture, multifold as it is, that breeds that).

That bbc BMI thing is awful!! holy eff. I'm below average but I don't even know what that means - they seem to give it so much context but it's all bullshit (and racist/sexist/classist?) context so meaningless. Tho I do think Senegal is a rad country regardless of my personal body fat percentage's association with it.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 17 July 2012 21:57 (eleven years ago) link

I get really upset about the Terror of Childhood Obesity because of stuff like that. Kids sizes change as they grow. Kids get chubby, then hit growth spurts, or start to develop. Putting a kid on a diet when a kid needs calories and nutrition to grow is damaging physically and mentally. I mean, sure, get out and move (and build safe playgrounds and get kids asthma medication and move shitty factories out of poor neighborhoods) and make sure healthy food choices are readily available and ketchup is not a vegetable and food deserts are terrible. But "oh no kids are FAT and that is the true problem!" is just misguided and awful. Stop stigmatizing fat (and thus fat kids) and focus on actual health.

― carl agatha, Tuesday, July 17, 2012 5:44 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, this is tricky. I work in a research institute and a lot of the research that goes on there revolves around obesity in children and what that means for their future health as adults. I have very mixed feelings about it.

God, I could talk about this shit forever. I won't but I could. I really hate the fact that when I try to lose weight but don't I feel like a complete fucking failure at life. It's how I'm feeling now and it's awful but this shit is instilled so deep in my brain that it's near impossible to overcome ime.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Tuesday, 17 July 2012 23:28 (eleven years ago) link

my mom (who i am pretty sure would be Tongan-associated according to the BBC) went through a phase with one of her sisters (who is thin), where her sister would regularly include dieting tips clipped out of magazines and newspapers along with the letters and New Yorker cartoons she'd send my mom in the mail every couple weeks. needless to say, my mother did not appreciate this, and after five or six months of this, retaliated by sending her sister a packet of photos of Ethiopian famine victims cut out of magazines, with an undoubtedly passive-aggressive post-it note attached to them. Soon after, the diet tips stopped arriving.

sarahell, Tuesday, 17 July 2012 23:30 (eleven years ago) link

That is awesome, kudos to your mom.

how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 00:42 (eleven years ago) link

my aunt just could not understand why my mom would be offended by being sent all those helpful diet tips

sarahell, Wednesday, 18 July 2012 00:44 (eleven years ago) link

i was just re-watching the trailer for LCD Soundsystem: Shut-up and Play the Hits and was thinking, wow, James Murphy is not a super attractive man but i've never thought about that when i think about him, just because i really like his music, he's major, it doesn't matter, i mean, he makes fun of his looks in his songs even. anyway, of course this made me think about women in music - and the arts and everything re: talent really - and the "need" to also be attractive as well talented. :/

i have way more issues about my face than i do about my body, i also realize.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 15:04 (eleven years ago) link

I'm with you on all the rest but I just gised James Murphy and he is totally attractive? So...idgi?

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 15:09 (eleven years ago) link

But I only like beat-up looking British Isles types. Preferably heavily and horribly tattooed. I can't understand why I have so much trouble with boyfriends....

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 15:11 (eleven years ago) link

Yeah, I've had a thing for James Murphy from the jump.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 18 July 2012 15:11 (eleven years ago) link

And the long-time hots for Frank Black if we're going to speak to type here.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 18 July 2012 15:12 (eleven years ago) link

However, this - "this made me think about women in music - and the arts and everything re: talent really - and the "need" to also be attractive as well talented" - is a really important point.

I know it happens everywhere but I remember reading a Metafilter (I know, I know) thread about MIA and within like FIVE posts it wasn't about the music but about her looks. And not even about how she is pretty but about whether she is pretty. That happens here sometimes, too, and it drives me nuts bc I like to think that ILX is better than that.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 18 July 2012 15:13 (eleven years ago) link

i do not have a thing for james murphy, obv!

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 15:15 (eleven years ago) link

nor frank black
shudder

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 15:16 (eleven years ago) link

Hello and welcome to my life for the past 20+ years (and if anything it feels like it's got worse since I was young in the 90s, and not better.)

x-post to carl agatha

Queue de Cheval (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 15:16 (eleven years ago) link

yeah, and just personally it's just something i'm tired of worrying about - i mean, i love dressing up and putting on make-up and looking good, but i don't the time i've spent in this life worry about if i'm pretty enough not just to date so-and-so or whatevs but to actually do a thing or be a part of something or just put myself and my talents out there more. and that just needs to stop.
xps

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 15:18 (eleven years ago) link

truly, i think all people whom i like are beautiful
even james murphy ;) but really, i like his music, i like him, doesn't matter what he looks like, and the same for most people i like or whose talents i admire

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 15:21 (eleven years ago) link

it's just hard to shake the sociocultural looks-judgment baggage sometimes

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 15:21 (eleven years ago) link

No, it's just the endless men act / women appear dichotomy and how, if a guy is super-talented by not physically perfect, his talent actually makes him seem more attractive. But if a woman is a musician, it is only and ever all about what she looks like and never about her talent, and it doesn't even matter if she is physically perfect, it will become this dissection of how even that is not enough. And it's just dispiriting bullshit.

I don't think James Murphy is attractive, but I don't like his music either.

Queue de Cheval (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 15:27 (eleven years ago) link

I like some of his music and I think he' pretty hot tbh.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 15:28 (eleven years ago) link

Carl did you have the hots for Matt Pinfield?

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 15:28 (eleven years ago) link

See, it just makes me so annoyed and angry and diverted but it's like I can't even make myself ~just not react~ to it. And every time I swear I won't get involved in these discussions again, up it comes like a bad smell and I scratch, then I get beaten up for bringing it up again because, jesus christ, woman, can't you just STFU and not put your sexism-oar in yet again, but it's like... no, not until people stop doing and saying the endless sexist tropes that keep popping up like a whack-a-mole.

Hate myself for responding. Going to look at Thom Yorke's belly now.

Queue de Cheval (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 15:30 (eleven years ago) link

Should really just ban myself from this thread tbh.

Queue de Cheval (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 15:31 (eleven years ago) link

Woah, woah, woah! WCC nobody beat you up about anything! You were totally on point. I just googled the other dude and thought he was hot. Also since I'm not a musician I have not experienced this personally and didn't have anything to add.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 15:32 (eleven years ago) link

That was an x-post to myself, sorry you were in the middle of those two posts, ENBB.

Queue de Cheval (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 15:34 (eleven years ago) link

well, it's a feeling to feel and to figure out through thinking and talking about it. i don't always feel down about this issue, especially when i realize that my friends and social circle and general loves in life have little to do with mainstream 'appreciations'/judgments of beauty.
xp

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 15:35 (eleven years ago) link

lol OK, sorry. I was a little confused!

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 15:35 (eleven years ago) link

ultimately, i'm not into "blame society" thinking, though i used to think more like that years ago, but it doesn't help me live my life and love myself; it just distracts me from living

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 15:37 (eleven years ago) link

what's going on in how sexism plays out does aggravate and bother me, for sure, obviously since i'm bringing one of the annoyances up itt, but once i talk it out and shake the tentacles of untruth of me, things feel better. constant reminder to do in the face of bombardment though.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 15:39 (eleven years ago) link

WCC you are OTM, and I also feel like it's got worse, but maybe I was just more oblivious. Or maybe back then there was actually a music press, whereas now there are blogs and youtube comments and horrible smug sexist dudes who've bought a domain name and even the printed music press (what little remains) is all Middle-Aged Man Bands For Middle-Aged Men* with barely a woman in sight inside or may as well just be Hello magazine

but even the zines and the local music press and the free-in-guitar-shop rags of the early/mid 90s I don't remember being quite as bad as things which seem to be perfectly standard these days

* sorry to be ageist but you know what I mean, Press Releases About The Forgettable New Albums By Classic Dudes From The Seventies Monthly. I am quite happy to listen to all the middle-aged musicians!

still small voice of clam (a passing spacecadet), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 15:48 (eleven years ago) link

men act / women appear

This is the awesomely succinct crux of it. Starts with pink baby onesies for girls that say "pretty pretty princess" and blue baby onesies for boys that say "little slugger" and just gets shittier from there.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 18 July 2012 15:55 (eleven years ago) link

Oh, Matt Pinfield never did it for me. I loved 120 Minutes but I don't think I liked his TV personality?

carl agatha, Wednesday, 18 July 2012 16:02 (eleven years ago) link

I've been thinking of challenging myself more to love & appreciate & feel good about "ugly"/"interesting" instead of always pretty PRETTY PREEEEETTTTTY. When I'm not dating anyone right that minute it's a lot easier to be on board with ugly/interesting. When I start to care about being found attractive by someone, though, somehow my brain melts and I start shorting myself of what I deserve.

Also I can no longer hear the word "pretty" without thinking of the Katie Makkai monologue which I would say is the best goddamn thing you could possibly think of.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 16:03 (eleven years ago) link

I feel like a broken record today, but what irritates me most, always, is the one-sidedness of it. That this constant chatter about women's attractiveness to wear them down or dismiss them as not musicians but eye candy. But if you, as a woman, even *mention* that a male musician is attractive, you will instantly get out the "OMG GIRL COOTIES ON OUR BOARD UGH UGH GROUPIES GROUPIES FANGIRLS WE WILL DIE OF THE GIRL COOTIES!" patrol.

As had just literally happened about on another board about 10 minutes before I started ranting on this thread.

I wish I had a button to make this stop irritating me so much, as there just seems to be nothing one can do to make it just not happen.

Queue de Cheval (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 16:08 (eleven years ago) link

laurel i think that is a good idea for you

i agree about the vexing nature of this other thing, but i'm going to keep my off switch engaged so i can continue to enjoy things i enjoy
otherwise life becomes kinda joyless for me, and i can't really handle that

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 16:10 (eleven years ago) link

I respect people's decisions to stay out of spaces that make them feel horrible without accomplishing anything but it does mean a little more pressure on people who stay. Like I know that Lechera and carl and I'm sure others too just stay off threads that are gonna bug 'em and that they don't feel they need to contribute anything to. I'm sure that decision is doing wonders for their mental health. But the ability to look away might include where you are right now with your fight with the issues, though. If you're feeling like that issue is actively making your life/world worse, of course you want to wade in. It's just...the immediate damage it does to you vs working for an improvement in the world overall? Never sure how that's gonna weight out in any given sitch.

WCC, you got tagged a bit last week-ish with being the person who ALWAYS has something to say about teh wimmens, and I think that was unfair/dumb.

xp Hah!

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 16:14 (eleven years ago) link

I have just been thinking about this so much. Because it's all so tied together in a big bag of ugly issues (literally and figuratively.) Like, how damaged I got by this kind of stuff when I was still a jobbing musician. Not just that I thought it hurt my career (I can accept "I just wasn't good enough.") but that it so destroyed my self confidence, sexual confidence, all that kind of stuff. The shit that got said about me, and about my band, for daring to continue to go onstage past my sexual attractiveness date.

It's one thing to accept your body for what it is now, which is kind of a place of peace that I've got to. But that idea that I can no longer even conceive that anyone else could be physically attracted to me, ever again. I'm angry about that right now.

But this is like 10 years worth of issues, not one afternoon. I'm just feeling kinda fragile about this right now.

WCC, you got tagged a bit last week-ish with being the person who ALWAYS has something to say about teh wimmens, and I think that was unfair/dumb.

Yeah, and it just feels really unfair that the person doing that tagging got to rampage around and continue, but it was me that had to STFU and punch myself in the face over it, like I'm the person that has to leave the conversation. Always. As opposed to the people spouting the hurtful shit.

I need to go home and not think about this. Life is really joyless at the moment, for too many reasons, but this is just one of them.

Queue de Cheval (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 16:18 (eleven years ago) link

Oh, but I'm not allowed to be ~angry~ because being angry isn't ~ladylike~.

I am pretty much a bottomless pit of anger sometimes. I wish I could be something else.

Queue de Cheval (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 16:20 (eleven years ago) link

Well you didn't have to punch yourself in the face over it, I guess is the point I'm not really trying/failing to make. But I think there are a lot of reasons to leave hurtful people alone and not just read it as ceding them the conversation. Like your continued good health so you can live and contribute.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 16:22 (eleven years ago) link

Like I know that Lechera and carl and I'm sure others too just stay off threads that are gonna bug 'em and that they don't feel they need to contribute anything to. I'm sure that decision is doing wonders for their mental health. But the ability to look away might include where you are right now with your fight with the issues, though. If you're feeling like that issue is actively making your life/world worse, of course you want to wade in. It's just...the immediate damage it does to you vs working for an improvement in the world overall? Never sure how that's gonna weight out in any given sitch.

This is probably mean but part of the reason why I don't bother with ~certain threads~ on ILX that go to annoying places is that I don't think the opposition is worth the effort. People (especially a certain kind of male person) on the internet (especially on the internet) are not interested in engaging and discussing. They just want to be right. There's no point in engaging in these discussions because the discussion isn't the point. The point is these dudes typing to hear themselves type and making sure everybody gets to read their super smart words. If somebody was really interested in talking about something and would actually listen to what I have to say, I'm there. But on certain issues here, that just doesn't happen.

Are there people who would like to engage in these conversations? Probably. But it's the folks who are just interested in shouting down opposition (and who have the time to post on the internet all day) who divert the attention. And seriously, fuck them.

In short, I don't the time for it and banging my head against a wall would be more constructive 99% of the time.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 18 July 2012 16:29 (eleven years ago) link

But if a woman is a musician, it is only and ever all about what she looks like and never about her talent, and it doesn't even matter if she is physically perfect, it will become this dissection of how even that is not enough

You know, a long time ago the WS threads used to have pictures of fully clothed (I know!) women who were writers or artists or something, and not necessarily "pretty." There might still be the occasional one there, I don't look at the threads, but it was cool when that wasn't a rarity.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 16:36 (eleven years ago) link

For like a minute.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 16:38 (eleven years ago) link

I generally try (try) to not to talk to anyone online I wouldn't genuinely enjoy talking to irl

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 16:46 (eleven years ago) link

You know, a long time ago the WS threads used to have pictures of fully clothed (I know!) women who were writers or artists or something, and not necessarily "pretty." There might still be the occasional one there, I don't look at the threads, but it was cool when that wasn't a rarity.

Aw that thread is the worst.

Team Safeword (Abbbottt), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 16:50 (eleven years ago) link

I generally try (try) to not to talk to anyone online I wouldn't genuinely enjoy talking to irl

This is a good determinant.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 18 July 2012 16:52 (eleven years ago) link

yeah i don't look at the WS threads anymore, not even the vintage one

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 17:01 (eleven years ago) link

they don't make me angry or anything, just feel kind of weird about them in general, but hey *internet*

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 17:01 (eleven years ago) link

but actually moreso i'm just kind of bored by threads like that
prob the reason i don't read ILM much either... and for a while i hardly even read ILE! these days not so bad

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 17:03 (eleven years ago) link

The WS thread only serves to remind me that a lot of people on ILX that I think are pretty okay are actually not people I want to interact with. So I avoid.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 18 July 2012 17:04 (eleven years ago) link

anger is a strange one though, as it really does eat away at you and create more anger and make you angry at yourself. like that nu doctor who episode with the weird symbols and the devil planet. and many other stories and myths/legends. and when people say things like "only you can help yourself break this cycle," i don't think that's entirely true - i think we help each other by listening and acknowledging each other and talking back and forth, disagreements or not, more than we know. it's easy sometimes to focus on the bs though. fuck that! (sometimes i shout "fuck that!" to make it work better). this is also why i stick with 77 and ilx in gen, obv.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 17:07 (eleven years ago) link

I'm glad for all your opinions this morning and your voices and your comments about ilx & threads & places we do or don't need to go. I think sometimes when we mostly stay away from stuff it creates the impression that it's okay, that no one minds it, and people kind of just don't *notice* that all the women have absented themselves? I think it's valuable to say every so often, I find these things/spaces objectionable and specifically avoid them because they have incurred my wrath.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 17:12 (eleven years ago) link

i like to think i make myself present enough in other ways in other places
but that's not entirely true. this is my year of being more present tbh!

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 17:14 (eleven years ago) link

but not wasting my energy on fighting fights that i don't love, if that makes sense. like if i'm going to argue about something it's going to be because i love the thing i'm arguing for or i love the person i'm arguing with.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 17:15 (eleven years ago) link

I think sometimes when we mostly stay away from stuff it creates the impression that it's okay, that no one minds it, and people kind of just don't *notice* that all the women have absented themselves?

I think that's super true. But then I go back to my previous point - when I have taken it upon myself to say, "Hey, this is gross and here are some reasons why you might want to do things differently" the response is... unpleasant. Like, what do you think would happen if I went onto the WS thread and voiced my objections to it? Especially given the dynamic of certain "loud" posters taking over conversations. But then again that goes back to the problem of people backing out of threads when they get stupid.

It is not unlike the tension between telling someone to ignore the bullies, and actually having a space where bullying are not okay in the first place (speaking on the internet here, and ILX specifically). The first one is a coping mechanism, and the second should be the goal. But that's not the way it works here.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 18 July 2012 17:17 (eleven years ago) link

"when they get stupid" meaning when the thread gets stupid, not the people. Bad antecedent there.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 18 July 2012 17:18 (eleven years ago) link

Yeah, it's not even the WS threads that bring the angry for me. I'm not on 77 so they're not even a ~thing~ for me.

And I don't even want to get into the threads that did just send me over the edge these past few weeks because that would involve complaining about people who would not be able to respond here. (Never mind that they've made it impossible for me to continue on the threads where they were being "loud.")

It's just how unworkable ILX becomes for me when it gets declared that it should be "rape joke apology week" or "gender is a ~real~ biological thing (and I know bcuz I am a straight cis man!) week" on the board. Especially when that comes with added extra bonus dudes telling you how you get to feel about these things, or throwing around terms like "the thought police" or pulling the whole victim routine where they pretend like they are the poor oppressed object of a personal beef because they got called on their bullshit, or the woman didn't just turn and walk away when the thread got stupid. Oh, with an added extra "you should cut this guy saying the offensive things some slack because he might not be neurotypical - even though, those times you've talked about your neuro-atypicality, that doesn't mean that anyone will cut you slack, that means people will just dismiss you as 'batshit' at the drop of a hat and disparage *everything* you say bcuz you are crazy lady" on top just for that extra bit of hypocrisy that makes you gnash your teeth.

And I end up sitting there stewing and getting angrier and angrier about it, and this anger poisons me. It poisons my life. That kind of curdled anger turns inwards and feeds/feeds off the depression. This stuff is not a game for me, this is not just idly discussing shit on the internet. It brings up all that shit that I want to forget. Stuff I have been open about on ILX, and other stuff that I do my best to never, ever, talk about on ILX.

I wonder if writing things like this makes me feel better or if it just makes other people feel worse. I hate that I seem to always come storming onto this thread full of anger.

(having internet problems tonight so this probably won't even post.)

Queue de Cheval (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 19:24 (eleven years ago) link

I read a good takedown of the "thought police" crap in response to the Tosh rape threat thing. I'm badly paraphrasing, but it's more or less like:

Explaining how rape jokes propagate rape culture and harm women = being the thought police. Telling women they need to quit being so sensitive and get a sense of humor (ie CHANGE THEIR ACTUAL THOUGHTS) = totally reasonable suggestion.

I wonder if writing things like this makes me feel better or if it just makes other people feel worse. I hate that I seem to always come storming onto this thread full of anger.

I think it's important to have a place to say these things, and as for being full of anger, there's a lot to be angry about and this is a good place to talk about it. or talk about Thom Yorke's abs, whatever you need. ;)

carl agatha, Wednesday, 18 July 2012 19:44 (eleven years ago) link

Ha! See, it was talking about Thom's abs with other Thom-loving ladies that got me in trouble with the fanboy-police today.

But it does actually help to have someone say "you are not crazy, this anger is understandable." That does help.

Queue de Cheval (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 19:51 (eleven years ago) link

aw WCC don't be down on your feelings, even though they are lousy and painful to have, it's totes valid for you to feel them. Or feel anything. All feelings are fair game.

Team Safeword (Abbbottt), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 19:54 (eleven years ago) link

Sooo hard not calling you by your first name btw! I don't bcz I know you got reasons but I always have to push against my first instinct.

Team Safeword (Abbbottt), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 19:55 (eleven years ago) link

"feelings are good (and other lies)" as Mr JT would say

I should pick some other kick-ass K name if you wanna show affection by calling me by my first name coz WCC is kinda a mouthful. Like Kurt or Kevin or Kieran or something. Hmmmm.

Queue de Cheval (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 20:02 (eleven years ago) link

Hm may I note that I went on my first date in eight years on Monday? It was uneventful. I sometimes feel like I've forgotten how to read flirting – or maybe never knew how to – but it's not true and absolutely nothing was going on. We had a nice chat though. Actually the chat was boring, he talked a lot about different Excel spreadsheets he'd made about his life. I got him to laugh a lot but I just did not have any comparable Excel file stories to contribute. Anyway, it did have the benefit of: I got to meet another nice human being, and I get to tell myself that this is the gateway drug date. Now maybe more will come? Not posting on boy problems thread because it isn't a problem.

Team Safeword (Abbbottt), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 20:02 (eleven years ago) link

I can definitely give you Excel anecdotes. Tell him you'd like to vlookup shared interests and rank them, or something. God, I am the worst. But yay, Abbs!

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 20:03 (eleven years ago) link

Also I don't think it helped that all we did was sit in a bar and drink. At some point I was drawing pictures of different table games like Scrabble, dominoes, cribbage – I was explaining the rules of cribbage and dominoes to him, because he asked. So I got to stare at my own depictions of that the whole time like 'look at the things we could be doing.'

Team Safeword (Abbbottt), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 20:05 (eleven years ago) link

Congrats on yr first date! You have survived and it wasn't terrible and different things will happen w other fellows!

But yeah, that boring, no chemistry is kinda blah but it is good practice to prove you can do it. Yay for taking a positive view!

Queue de Cheval (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 20:05 (eleven years ago) link

(next time bring dominoes in yr handbag so you do that?)

Queue de Cheval (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 20:07 (eleven years ago) link

Yeah I guess I never knew what "no chemistry" meant before then. I kind of convinced myself he had the mannerisms and accent of a sexy professor so that I could get myself mentally psyched for a makeout session that sadly never happened.

Team Safeword (Abbbottt), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 20:07 (eleven years ago) link

he talked a lot about different Excel spreadsheets he'd made about his life.

I know two men well that could have had this conversation on a first date. I might be married to one of them.

If you are staring wistfully at your drawings of board games, that is a bad sign, though. But it's like an job interview for a job you don't really want - good practice.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 18 July 2012 20:10 (eleven years ago) link

Yes I guess I learned the important lesson that there has to be some activity in addition to beer. I was getting the cranky restless hands feeling of a knitter without their knitting, which is bad. My fault for not suggesting anything else because I knew from the start 'meet for drinks' would make me bored.

Team Safeword (Abbbottt), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 20:14 (eleven years ago) link

congrats, abbs! but yeah meet for drinks would not work for me at all either, don't feel weird about that

if i were to go on a date, i would take him walking/talking as that is my favorite activity and we could walk to a place that we both wanted to go and then have a drink or a bite there or a nibble or whatever. that's more than enough activity for the first time i would meet someone! don't wanna overdo it/waste a good idea on a person who's boring.

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 20:16 (eleven years ago) link

It doesn't make me feel worse - I think it's good to talk about your anger, whether in a measures logical way or in an outburst of emotion - all good as long as long as we're owning the feeling and/or figuring out how to deal with it without hurting self or others.
xp

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 20:27 (eleven years ago) link

whoops many xps!

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 20:28 (eleven years ago) link

Also, I mean, WCC you're clearly not TRYING to make anybody feel bad and the idea of having to keep quiet about our anger to avoid making people feel bad is part of the problem.

Have an of you watched the show Boardwalk Empire? We watched the first season and I don't think I am going to watch any more because the sheer volume of emotions swallowed by the women in that show is threatening to choke me to death every time I watch it. Especially the poor wife of that horrible religious nut federal agent.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 18 July 2012 20:53 (eleven years ago) link

That's so interesting, Jenny. I think something like that will be too much of a problem for me to watch Mad Men, tbh. I've successfully avoided ever seeing it, so far.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 21:10 (eleven years ago) link

Dates! I have one tomorrow. It is meeting for drinks. Haha.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 21:12 (eleven years ago) link

Boardwalk Empire is very much a dude's show. which isn't to say that it's without merit (I think Breaking Bad is very much a dude's show, too, and I love the shit out of it) but a dude's show that's set in a time that was unkind to women has a pretty big hurdle to overcome for me to enjoy it. And the awesome hairstyles/hats will only get me so far.

I haven't watched the most recent season of Mad Men, but I actually think it does okay with women. V. disappointing re: race, though.

"meeting for drinks" would be my preferred date, actually.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 18 July 2012 21:16 (eleven years ago) link

Yeah I mean it allows me to do two and sometimes three of my favorite things: drink, talk, and occasionally also smoke.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 21:25 (eleven years ago) link

I'm going to do those things all evening this evening with two of my really good friends, so tomorrow I will just be doing the same things with someone who I may or may not want to sleep with.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 21:26 (eleven years ago) link

it also allows for a quick exit if the date goes badly. i learned this lesson after bad dinner dates.

rayuela, Wednesday, 18 July 2012 21:29 (eleven years ago) link

I should do this thing, too. I should try to meet someone to talk and eat (tho prob not drink/smoke) with, with a view to maybe wanting to sleep with them.

But I just cannot get over that whole thing of thinking myself so disgusting + horrible + ugly that no one I would want, would want to meet or sleep with me. Or even just, you know, hug. I have hugged another human maybe twice this year. And I'm realising, my fear of being touched, it's as much a fear of my own self as disgusting as it is terror of being violated.

Maybe the booze is necessary after all.

Queue de Cheval (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 21:34 (eleven years ago) link

IDK that has been the nice thing abt online dating site, for me, people who seem like reasonable non-creeps sending messages that include 'hey you're cute.' Like I feel that's totally awful to say? That I'm just enjoying attention from strange men? But there's a context for it and it's safe, and it's been nice, I won't lie. Because my image of 'I am sexually attractive' was totally shot to hell. There's also been a lot of "GODLESS GREETINGS, WHAT DO YOUR FEET LOOK LIKE" but at least nothing too awful.

Team Safeword (Abbbottt), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 21:39 (eleven years ago) link

(of course now you say that I am remembering the complete sociopath who sent me the weird messages documented way back on the OKC thread and feel creped out again.)

Queue de Cheval (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 21:43 (eleven years ago) link

Yeah, it's the internet, it's sometimes just an id machine.

Team Safeword (Abbbottt), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 21:45 (eleven years ago) link

Bog standard crepes, weirdoes and ppl w too many Joy Division records who just wanna get laid = bring it on. But it's the damn mind games and the sociopaths I can't cope with. :-/

Queue de Cheval (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 21:50 (eleven years ago) link

But I just cannot get over that whole thing of thinking myself so disgusting + horrible + ugly that no one I would want, would want to meet or sleep with me.

that is a horrible feeling - have been there off and on for a while - and I'm really sorry that you're feeling that way.

sarahell, Wednesday, 18 July 2012 22:06 (eleven years ago) link

my issue - that has plagued me for well over a decade - is that I'm not good enough to get past the "friend zone"

sarahell, Wednesday, 18 July 2012 22:08 (eleven years ago) link

I feel a similar self-loathing way sometimes and I've been partnered up with the same person for 12 years now (with acknowledgement that nothing other than the perniciousness of the feeling is the same here). That shit runs deep, is all I can say.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 18 July 2012 22:16 (eleven years ago) link

everyone i know (incl myself) has always felt that way -- it has always seemed like the natural state of things. sadly. lots of negative experiences early on take decades to get past, afaict.

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 22:22 (eleven years ago) link

ok maybe not everyone but many of my confidants

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Wednesday, 18 July 2012 22:22 (eleven years ago) link

oops im so sorry, i didnt know WCC's first name was off limits and i said it upthread :/

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Thursday, 19 July 2012 01:32 (eleven years ago) link

Think I am going to call you k7, WCC, because it's close to what I used to type for your name. (That probably won't actually happen.)

Team Safeword (Abbbottt), Thursday, 19 July 2012 01:34 (eleven years ago) link

Roxy, I had some shit go down last year WRT my job, a public scandal and the press. And someone from the press was able to put together 2 and 2 and found me in a way that made me feel v v compromised WRT stuff I've talked about on ILX when it was still just 20 ppl who met in the pub every month. I might have a common name, but the confluence of my name, in a male-dominated job, in a small country in a small industry left me v v exposed.

So I asked for ppl not to use that name - but clearly with not enough ~politeness~ for the Entitled of ILX so rather than accept I had reasons I couldn't talk about without making the situation worse (hello! Journalists of ILX! I'm hiding my identity to keep you away!) they just decided this was yet another reason I was "batshit" and this should form the basis of a yet another clusterfuck! Because that's what you want and deserve when there are tabloids outside your office.

So even though I no longer work in that job or industry, yeah, pls do not use anything like my government name to refer to me. Thanks, appreciate it.

Queue de Cheval (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Thursday, 19 July 2012 06:31 (eleven years ago) link

I have taken this thread on such a massive downer. I'm sorry, I don't enjoy it when that happens. Anyway, here is a photo of Thom Yorke's belly, perhaps we can go back to discussing attractive men and their abdomen exposure.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7bj27ZV1y1qb7ynyo1_500.png

I do not know if he is sucking in his gut or if it's just the angle at which he is pulling off his shirt but the little convex bit of belly that usually drives me half mad with desire is not in evidence which is a bit of a shame but basically the barrel of his ribcage excites me so much I don't really care. He is a v v attractive man and when he displays his body it makes me happy.

Need all the happiness I can get right now TBH.

Please to discuss attractive men with that little convex belly thing.

Queue de Cheval (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Thursday, 19 July 2012 08:17 (eleven years ago) link

We've been watching Homicide: Life in the Streets and Clark Johnson is my current time machine crush:

http://www.celebrity8x10s.com/photos/j/Johnson_Clark_Homicide__Life_on_the_Streets_23443l.jpg

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_llfc2v7fhv1qaeogao1_500.png

He's still pretty handsome:

http://www.postcity.com/images/cache/6595a5d5903e3c68d9a83245e578e503.jpeg

carl agatha, Thursday, 19 July 2012 14:40 (eleven years ago) link

once cute, always cute (with a caveat for ott surgery & dental work)

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Thursday, 19 July 2012 14:41 (eleven years ago) link

Also have a crush on Michelle Forbes although that is probably about 50% her awesome 90s hair in Homicide and 50% Ensign Ro.

http://michelle-forbes.ucoz.com/_ph/31/2/789974273.png
http://michelle-forbes.ucoz.com/_ph/32/2/540566514.png

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YBUUdTuhc9o/TwnqZSXdQoI/AAAAAAAADXw/n7A4U9-pndc/s640/Ro_Laren01.jpg

carl agatha, Thursday, 19 July 2012 14:44 (eleven years ago) link

So I'm even being radical about fat in my sleep, apparently. Had a dream last night that a woman I went to law school with was conducting tests on mayonnaise packets and discarded soda cups in an attempt to show that all people who eat fast food are obese, diabetic, and have heart disease. I was having this huge argument with her in her dream, pointing out all of her bad science and logical fallacies and she kept saying, "Of COURSE fat people only eat fast food! Anybody who eats mayonnaise is going to be fat!"

I woke up very tired.

carl agatha, Thursday, 19 July 2012 14:49 (eleven years ago) link

wcc, i was never super attracted to thom yorke, but that picture makes me rethink that!

rayuela, Thursday, 19 July 2012 14:56 (eleven years ago) link

Haha, Rayela, you are the second person I've spoken to today who is rethinking Thom Yorke's attractiveness after my showing them that pic.

I am the boycrush pusher!

I want to smother him in electronic butter. (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Thursday, 19 July 2012 14:59 (eleven years ago) link

I have managed to completely depress myself on the OKC thread again. Pls post things of awesomeness to remind me that the world really is OK, ladies.

It's like I use that thread to psych myself up, and get all happy and excited when I see other ILX0rs finding romance and excitement and makeout sessions. Like, this is a thing, this is a real thing that happens, in this world! And then there's this crash where I talk about how I feel and what my experiences are, and people stare at me like I have three heads. And that makes me feel a lot worse and negates all the feeling-better that just happened.

i am forcing myself to go out tonnight and my lovely ex R, bless him, is being a real pusher about it! He loves going out and is happy when I come with, so I'm all made up and hyped up and HERE I GO... full of nerves.

Pureed Moods (Trayce), Friday, 27 July 2012 10:25 (eleven years ago) link

Well, it can be a massive booster to get all dressed up and go out just for funtimes with someone who is actually excited about going out, and keen to spend time with you. What are you going to do? Is this a sort of ~hunting~ expedition or are you just going out to have a good time?

Guys I sometimes worry that I shat out my gut brain. You know, the one that throws up red flags or tells you 'don't let this person talk to you like that.' No idea what to do about this? Or if I'm just making it up? Like oh I think there SHOULD be a red flag here but there isn't – how to tell if there genuinely shouldn't be one or if I'm just missing some other way of sensing things? It's like the paranoid multi-level thinking of being stoned without all the fun.

Crabbits, Friday, 27 July 2012 14:08 (eleven years ago) link

Oh wait you want reminders that the world is awesome. God, I'm so selfish. I gave a lot of high fives to sexy dudes this week? High fives are as physical as I get.

Crabbits, Friday, 27 July 2012 14:11 (eleven years ago) link

I haven't read it but people seem to like the book The Gift of Fear - http://www.amazon.com/Other-Survival-Signals-Protect-Violence/dp/0440508835. Although I understand some of the stuff about domestic violence is a little iffy (again I haven't read it).

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Friday, 27 July 2012 14:14 (eleven years ago) link

I know exactly what you're talking about, and I feel like it has happened to me on multiple occasions. Like, losing your compass?

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Friday, 27 July 2012 14:17 (eleven years ago) link

Crabbits, I don't believe we've been introduced. Are you new in these parts?

It's ABbott

Crabbits, Friday, 27 July 2012 14:22 (eleven years ago) link

Yeah I read and LOVED Gift of Fear – 'gut brain' is my idea of his idea to trust in your instinct + Gladwell's blink thing (lol). How do you even assess if you are trusting yourself? I'm so bad at this kind of introspection. I can't tell if I have low standards or if other people around me are just uptight. There's probably not just one standard for how others treat you, eh? Blargh.

Crabbits, Friday, 27 July 2012 14:25 (eleven years ago) link

Oh! You confused me with your new "cr". ::squints::

I don't know. My red-flag reader has basically been broken my entire life. Like, it's either set to "everything, all the time" or it's just off flapping somewhere on a tree that I don't even notice any more when it should be giving me signals of STAY AWAY STAY AWAY.

haha yes exactly

Crabbits, Friday, 27 July 2012 14:33 (eleven years ago) link

WCC I want to say all best to you in your dating life, you're a super awesome gal and I know it's taking some courage.

Crabbits, Friday, 27 July 2012 14:34 (eleven years ago) link

xp was just thinking about Gift of Fear b/c of an intense/creepy guy msging me on okc who freaked me out. it's annoying that i have to go thru my memories of the book to realize that no i'm not overreacting, block that mofo ffs. i ended up an anxious wreck when i should have blocked him in the first place. ugh.

i should prob read that book again.

hi crabbits. i wish i had answers/insights, but i'm totally clueless about such things.

JuliaA, Friday, 27 July 2012 14:35 (eleven years ago) link

is this a matter of risk taking behavior? what sort of things are you guys talking about?

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Friday, 27 July 2012 14:37 (eleven years ago) link

I am having a hard time believing that a the mo' but thanks for saying that, Abbs.

It's really hard, for me, trying to sort through that Fear thing. When it's legit and when it's not. My detectors got completely broken. Like, if you have spent a lot of time around people who deliberately fuck with your flag settings in order to manipulate you or do horrible shit to you, it makes it really really hard to trust your reactions ever again. It's like living with a broken thermostat (because a dishonest landlord once wanted you never to turn the heating on.) Or something like that.

I guess I kind of get it. I'm sorry for being dense. When you've been burned, it's hard not to expect to get burned over and over again, especially if you were burned young. At least that's what I tell myself when I start to wonder if I'm seeing things clearly.

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Friday, 27 July 2012 14:50 (eleven years ago) link

WCC OTM. Or if you've intentionally ignored red flags in the past bc if you didn't, your situation would mean you are in panic mode 100% of the time. Throws the whole thing off kilter.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Friday, 27 July 2012 14:53 (eleven years ago) link

It's partly that - that when you've been burned badly, you expect to be burned.

But it's kind of more than that. That some ppl will deliberately try to sabotage your whole flagging system and pretty much gaslight you into thinking that you can't actually trust your own reactions, in order to fool you into thinking that things are OK, when things are really seriously not OK.

I dunno if that's what Abbs & Julia are talking about, tho.

>sabotage your whole flagging system and pretty much gaslight you into thinking that you can't actually trust your own reactions

i have a tendency to second-guess my reactions to a wide range of things because of a long long history of this.

JuliaA, Friday, 27 July 2012 14:59 (eleven years ago) link

I've been watching Church videos and feeling feelings about stupid things that I felt in 9th grade, a zillion years ago. A waste of time, basically, but fun to remember for the sheer melodrama. V sorry if I am being dense.

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Friday, 27 July 2012 15:03 (eleven years ago) link

(please note i am not intentionally wasting time, i'm doing this for a reason)

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Friday, 27 July 2012 15:05 (eleven years ago) link

That broken signaling system may bear some responsibility for the fact that people who've been harmed/abused are more likely to be harmed again by someone else? Just speaking extremely broadly, obviously not indicative for any one case.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Friday, 27 July 2012 15:52 (eleven years ago) link

This is kinda what I have to tell myself sometimes. When I look back at my sexual/relationship/abuse history and I think "how the fuck can so much of this stupid shit have happened to one person?" like I must be bringing these things on myself repeatedly. (internalised victim blaming blah blah blah) But trying to tell myself, no, it's just that your signalling system is broken.

Oh yes, and also - alcohol.

Oh god I hate thinking about this shit. :-(

I don't wanna go there, I want to think happy thoughts!

here is a picture of Tilda Swinton with the best haircut in the universe. I wish I could get away with that, but I do not have the bone structure.

http://cdnimg.visualizeus.com/thumbs/f3/e5/cigarette,photography,tilda,swinton,babe,celeb,smoke-f3e507a700476f02051efc81c5a47730_h.jpg

I was just reduced to sobs by a Dr Who Christmas special = I should pick up some tampons while I'm out.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Friday, 27 July 2012 16:29 (eleven years ago) link

Also nobody has that bone structure: her mouth is wide open, elongating her cheeks and making her chin shadows look more distinct and hollowed out, and the hair is hiding her nose and forehead, plus photochopped all to hell.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Friday, 27 July 2012 16:30 (eleven years ago) link

omg tell me you have seen the tilda/bowie blog?
they are both amazing beautiful aliens

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Friday, 27 July 2012 17:29 (eleven years ago) link

http://tildastardust.tumblr.com/

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Friday, 27 July 2012 17:30 (eleven years ago) link

Oh my that is fantastic. Her face is so fascinating (also she got STYLE)

kinder, Friday, 27 July 2012 17:40 (eleven years ago) link

Btw I technically had hair fairly similar to that cut and it N-E-V-E-R looked like that, also I got hair wax all over my collar all the time, also as I may have mentioned before I looked like Zoe Ball.

kinder, Friday, 27 July 2012 17:41 (eleven years ago) link

Well, there is also...

http://www.anothermag.com/filestorage/20/7/27667.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/KBd3c.png

And there was me all feeling pleased with myself coz I thought I had finally found a style icon that was at least the correct sex, but that's not going to work, is it?

I had, basically, THIS hair, when I was 15, and then again when I was in my late 20s

http://media.avclub.com/images/articles/article/42433/tilda-swinton_M_jpg_627x325_crop_upscale_q85.jpg

But I was a lot thinner and, more crucially, lived in a lot less humid environment. Hair like that works in a dry, mountainous region, it doesn't work in the malarial swamps of South London.

I just absolutely love, love, love her clothes and her style and everything - she does androgyny in the way that I would love to be able to pull off. But my body would always betray me. Just like it always does when all the people I want to dress like are dudes. Why oh why isn't there a fat-girl version of the Weimar Lesbian look I used to rock? It's not fair.

OMG that website (again)!
http://www.morphthing.com/showimage/2/0/0/37010075/Michael-Jackson--Tilda-Swinton.jpeg

kinda looks like Sigourney Weaver

kinder, Friday, 27 July 2012 18:38 (eleven years ago) link

No, that one is just RONG.

I love MorphThing far too much for my own good. It's so hilarious.

I was looking for fashion icons for you all morning, WCC, but they kept being feminized men instead of androgynized women, and they were all couture-y, ie thin as reeds and not a one over 30. I see that it's a bit hard to find really on-point role models when you actually do NOT want to "feminized menswear" but actual menswear.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Friday, 27 July 2012 18:59 (eleven years ago) link

I think p much everyone, man and woman alike, looks good w/chin- or mouth-length hair.

Crabbits, Friday, 27 July 2012 19:04 (eleven years ago) link

Well, part of the problem is I am just so physically BIG (I am tall, and have very wide shoulders as well as being heavy) and so 90% of womens clothes just do not *fit* me. And the few that do, they tend towards tent-y. I would be happy to do sort of feminised menswear if I could get it in my size, but I expect it would probably have to be hand tailored. I suppose I might as well get some tailored as my weight seems to have stabilised. A friend of mine got some tweeds hand tailored in Hong Kong and they are dazzling.

It seems with women who are big and buxom, the thing they seem to do is wear very feminine clothes, with cinched waists and deep bosoms but good god the last thing I want to do is draw attention to my breasts. And I can't abide dresses and feminine clothes, I just feel like a horse wearing drag.

Welllllll you could buy men's shirts with the right shoulder width and have the bodies tailored, that would be an affordable alternative to custom shirts. And...suiting vests are good for waist defining?

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Friday, 27 July 2012 19:10 (eleven years ago) link

I saw a picture of a menswear "skirt" made out of like fisherman's sweater with leather-bound edges and buckles on it and it fairly screamed You.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Friday, 27 July 2012 19:11 (eleven years ago) link

I think curvy women look good in vests, ties, and dress shirts. The vest would work with your waist, although a well-fitted dress shirt and pants would probably require some tailoring.

xp!

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Friday, 27 July 2012 19:13 (eleven years ago) link

I think I would go pared-down rock and roll for everyday, though. Buy nice Tshirts, not underwear ones but something nicer & heavier, in 2 or 3 neutrals (grey, black?) and put them with pinstriped vests, women's jeans because they have to fit, and your engineer boots. That plus a really intersting haircut and maybe professional hair color would be a whole outfit? Some beat-up bracelets or a cuff or a leather thong or something? Or some hand-hammered art earrings that are the showpiece of the whole thing, or you know, whatever you feel like.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Friday, 27 July 2012 19:14 (eleven years ago) link

There. You're dressed!

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Friday, 27 July 2012 19:15 (eleven years ago) link

I am forever on the lookout for good waistcoats. You have just reminded me that I need to get one of them dry cleaned. I want a tweed one and found a place in Scotland that does them made to order from whatever burr of tweed you choose, wantwantwant. In fact, should just order one now I have been paid.

Mens shirts are always trouble because if they fit me in the shoulder, then they have *gaping* problems at the bust (and often again at the hips, too.) So I tend not to wear button down shirts.

I need to learn more about getting clothes altered. I'm just so hopeless at all those girl things.

My faves androgynous style was/is '90s Beck, which always drove my mom nuts, me wanting to dress like that. In Seventeen the last page was 'dress like X celebrity' and they had one of Dress Like Beck circa '96, which was a good investment for me to show to my mom, SEE GIRLS CAN DO THIS TOO.

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg8/scaled.php?server=8&filename=ohthat.jpg&res=landing

Five years ago maybe? It's too hot to dress like that here.
emil.y is very good at rocking the tie and blazer look

Crabbits, Friday, 27 July 2012 19:16 (eleven years ago) link

Buy nice Tshirts, not underwear ones but something nicer & heavier, in 2 or 3 neutrals (grey, black?) and put them with pinstriped vests, women's jeans because they have to fit, and your engineer boots. That plus a really intersting haircut and maybe professional hair color would be a whole outfit?

Thanks. You have just turned me into Thom Yorke on the King of Limbs tour. :-P

I want to fuck him, not be him!

(actually I'm not so sure about that, but let's just pretend.)

Abbs you are too damned adorable for this thread. And dressed like Beck is too, too cute.

Getting clothes altered isn't a girl thing!!! Men's suits and dress clothes are INVARIABLY custom-fitted, there's no way for them to be any good otherwise. And you don't need to know HOW to do it, that's the tailor's job. Tell you what, stop into a tailor and ask: if I bought some shirts and brought them to you, what would be the most important measurement that would need to fit to start with? And do what they say.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Friday, 27 July 2012 19:18 (eleven years ago) link

What a fashion thread. I'm a creep, and you're a loser. Hurrah!

x-post to Beckotts

However you are going to need bras that fit or nothing else will fit over them. So reach a detente with your bust for long enough do that.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Friday, 27 July 2012 19:19 (eleven years ago) link

Really love the dress shirt and pants look, I had to buy all these business casual clothes for work and I think career separates trousers look a lot better on me than jeans. If I could just wear that and stompy boots and a sweater every day I'd be happy.

Crabbits, Friday, 27 July 2012 19:21 (eleven years ago) link

My bras are all dying and poking me uncomfortably in awkward places. I don't want to have to go bra shopping again, I just did it 2 years ago. Bra shopping is a special kind of hell.

How on earth do I find a tailor anyway? Actually I think there might be one across the road from the office.

Bras shopping is ~~~the worst~~~

Crabbits, Friday, 27 July 2012 19:22 (eleven years ago) link

Bra shopping and first dates are the most hideous things in the history of the world. I have to do one this weekend, don't make me do the other!

These suggestions have been v v useful, though. I'm going to go and dye my hair now because 2 inch roots are never attractive.

Hey, you know what makes bra shopping a lot easier? Being willing to spend more money to go to a place where you just stand there and they fit you. Yes, you will have to let some bossy old lady (aren't they always bossy old ladies, where DO they find them) see you in your bra, but she does it for a living and you look just like everyone else she helps so no biggie. And she throws three bras at you and you're done for a year, and a year later you can just order the same thing again if they still fit.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Friday, 27 July 2012 19:38 (eleven years ago) link

I wouldn't even know where to go for that. It's not like I don't have money. I just don't ever buy bras from anywhere that isn't Marks & Sparks.

Mens shirts are always trouble because if they fit me in the shoulder, then they have *gaping* problems at the bust
Ok, here's a solution to the gaping bust problem: take your button-down shirt to the tailor and have them just sew it up. It is now a pull-over with decorative buttons.

kate78, Friday, 27 July 2012 19:52 (eleven years ago) link

There's no way it will go over my shoulders/back if it is sewn up! I guess I just need to buy bigger shirts. I have a couple of women's shirts that are like, UK size 22 or something, and though they flap in awkward places, they don't have gaping problems.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO KNOW WHERE TO GO, THAT'S WHAT GOOGLE IS FOR.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Friday, 27 July 2012 20:01 (eleven years ago) link

DON'T MAKE ME YELL AT YOU!

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Friday, 27 July 2012 20:01 (eleven years ago) link

Honestly I like the idea of menswear but button-up shirts never fit me either so I've basically completely given up on them. On the rare occasion, I solve the gaping problem with double-sided dress tape--it's SUPER sticky and you can get a pack of like 50 pieces for $10 or something.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Friday, 27 July 2012 20:03 (eleven years ago) link

I used to be able to get away with those little gold safety pins. But even they pucker.

Don't sew it up all the way, leave room for your head.

kate78, Friday, 27 July 2012 20:07 (eleven years ago) link

Better yet have them sew it closed ON you and just wear it into the shower. Be sure to get one of those permanent-press/no-iron kinds, though!

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Friday, 27 July 2012 20:09 (eleven years ago) link

I would love to do that. I would have made an excellent Elizabethan. But these days, people tend to object to the smell if you are sewn into your clothes.

I do, however, need to dig out my awesome tie collection. Because I do have a great one, and I've no idea where they've all got to. I inherited all my father's 60s Liberty print skinny ties. They are ~amazing~.

GIRRRRL go the tailor across the street from work and ask what you should look for in a shirt that you're going to have altered and then go out and buy at least two in solid colors (because the alternations might make stripes crooked) and have them taken in with waist and bust darts and then wear them with your ties and THEN talk to me.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Friday, 27 July 2012 20:18 (eleven years ago) link

I love ladies in ties. I would like to be a lady who wears ties but I don't feel quite right in them. Maybe I should try wearing a tie with a dress...

My Secret to Bra Shopping: go to a fancy department store. Get measured. Try on lots of bras. Figure out the size/brand that you like the best. Buy that kind of bra (one in beige/brown and one in black) for the rest of your life. Then it only hurts the first time you shop. Or until they stop making the bra you like and you have to go back for another try.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Friday, 27 July 2012 20:26 (eleven years ago) link

Ties with dresses are so mod! Love them. I love shirt-dresses, too, but again--never fit.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Friday, 27 July 2012 20:31 (eleven years ago) link

i used to do that - i think i still have a few of the ties i modified, including the pink vinyl "klaus barbie" tie

sarahell, Friday, 27 July 2012 20:33 (eleven years ago) link

I have two shirt dresses that fit pretty well. I had a lot of luck with eShakti.com for a few years. Their standard 22 is pretty much right on for my measurements.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Friday, 27 July 2012 20:37 (eleven years ago) link

WCC, maybe try bravissimo for getting measured for bras--they're only in UK and have a great rep for fitting busty people well.

JuliaA, Friday, 27 July 2012 20:39 (eleven years ago) link

there's one online busty-people clothing vendor that uses hook-and-eyes instead of buttons in the bust area, so there's no gaping. that seems like a possible mod for existing shirts?

JuliaA, Friday, 27 July 2012 20:42 (eleven years ago) link

I think Curvy Kate is also UK and are all about pretty bras for women who actually have women boobs.

quincie, Saturday, 28 July 2012 14:53 (eleven years ago) link

OK no first hand experience but I think this is important:

"CLASSIC WHITE SHIRTS FOR THE LARGE BUSTED WOMAN
WHO CARES ABOUT FIT AND QUALITY"

http://campbellandkate.com/

quincie, Saturday, 28 July 2012 14:56 (eleven years ago) link

Campbell & Kate is a clothing company in New York City with a specialty line of shirts for the professional woman who wears a bra cup size D-H and a dress size 4-14.

^^^^^yeah, fucken LOL. Only skinny women with big tits may apply. No fatties allowed. Dear Campbell and Kate: GO FUCK YOURSELVES.

Anyway, I am now officially middle aged. Because I forced myself to walk up and down the High Street and in the end the only shop that had anything I liked was Marks & Sparks. 10 years ago, I'd be all "ugh, old ladies" but now I'm just "hmmm, this is really classy and classic." SHOOT ME NOW. I got some lovely loose oversized shirts with military sort of styling. And waistcoats. I got a blue paisley waistcoat - my inner 19 year old Church fan is squeeing happily.

I am now starting to grade which UK high street shops don't bat an eyelid at an unaccompanied woman entering the mens department to shop. Marks & Sparks and House of Fraser get a pass, but Debenhem's is a big fail for the gentleman who was shocked - SHOCKED - that I was shopping for myself.

Which is kind of a shame because the mens clothes there were definitely the best. If I were a man, I would be such a clotheshorse! Seriously, I would just buy and wear all the clothes in the world. But shopping for womens clothes is just endless "ugh, ugh, yuck, ugh, no, why can't this cover mine arms, can you make it less *frilly* please?" It doesn't seem fair.

I want to smother him in electronic butter. (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Saturday, 28 July 2012 15:59 (eleven years ago) link

BTW M&S do bra fittings (at least, the Oxford one does - they take appointments but I didn't realise that and just turned up and they fitted me in within half an hour). Think House of Fraser do too; there isn't one here but I got measured at the one in Cheltenham a few years ago.

One of the specialist places mentioned upthread is almost certainly better at the less catered-for ends of the size spectrum, but if you're going to M&S/HoF anyway...

There are many OTM things on this thread re clothes and androgynous chic, sigh. At least you got some years of being the right shape to pull off the "Weimar Lesbian look" (heh); even when I was half my current age and clothes size I had a big square face and hamster cheeks which made me not really capable of the mid-90s Frischmann/Sadier look I was sort of aiming for, or at least daydreaming of

still small voice of clam (a passing spacecadet), Saturday, 28 July 2012 16:17 (eleven years ago) link

Ha! I never had the cheekbones to pull of a Frischmann/Sadier look. When I was thin, I had a big long horse face. But the only time in my life I was thin enough to pull off that look, I lived off vodka and nutrigrain bars and walked everywhere because I was too poor to take the bus. It wasn't a healthy thing to do.

I will probably look into getting a bra fitting at M&S or HoF since I went to the ones in Croydon which are 5 minutes from where I work anyway, it would be easy to go back. I was just not in the mood for any more clothes shopping at that point.

I want to smother him in electronic butter. (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Saturday, 28 July 2012 16:32 (eleven years ago) link

Sounds like your shopping went not-so-bad, yay! No reason to push it at this point if you are tired of it.

(I have been trying to get myself to go score some new work clothes while the big US department stores are having their major sales, but keep stalling and stalling and stalling because I just don't find it that fun.)

quincie, Saturday, 28 July 2012 16:55 (eleven years ago) link

Oh god, going through big department stores when there are major sales on is just complete hard work.

My Mum lives for that sort of thing, she will shop for hours if she thinks she will net a bargain but I just find it exhausting.

I want to smother him in electronic butter. (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Saturday, 28 July 2012 17:26 (eleven years ago) link

I've gotten good at very quickly identifying dresses that are likely to work for me; pants is much, much harder because you really can't tell a thing until they are on you. I stick to a very narrow range of dress styles, so I get to eliminate a lot right off the bat. I also stick to stores that actually sort dresses by size as opposed to having huge jumbled clearance racks of everything in every size, a la TJ Maxx (which I just refuse to do now, even if it means I miss out on bargains).

There is a reason I have never been and will never be a successful thrifter.

quincie, Saturday, 28 July 2012 17:54 (eleven years ago) link

Oh and my mom is like yours; that trait must skip generations!

quincie, Saturday, 28 July 2012 17:55 (eleven years ago) link

quincie we are like shopping sisterz. For some reason I thought I would go to Nordstrom Rack yesterday and I got a headache and left before I even looked though one rack of clothes.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Saturday, 28 July 2012 19:08 (eleven years ago) link

Oh I give Nordstrom Rack wide berth, believe me!

Now regular Nordstrom, that I can get behind. I can park right by the entrance so I never have to enter "rest of the mall" territory, and they have a CAFE where I can take a break and have a nice bowl of tomato soup when I get overwhelmed. Merchandise is nicely organized, dressing rooms are not a disaster, and the staff are generally quite pleasant and helpful.

Actually I once came home and announced that in the future, I would only shop in department stores with sit-down cafes. The old Lord and Taylor in DC used to have on, and I liked that store for suites. Cafe was closed down, sadly. Now it is just Nordstrom for me.

quincie, Saturday, 28 July 2012 22:31 (eleven years ago) link

I liked the L&T for suits, not suites.

If only I could find a department store that had a cafe that served alcohol, my shopping life would 100X improved.

quincie, Saturday, 28 July 2012 22:33 (eleven years ago) link

i can never understand regular nordstrom! how do you find anything, it's organized so weird

kneel aurmstrong (harbl), Saturday, 28 July 2012 22:35 (eleven years ago) link

i am wearing a shirt i got at nordstrom rack. it was truly chaotic and i hated it!

kneel aurmstrong (harbl), Saturday, 28 July 2012 22:38 (eleven years ago) link

Lunch restaurants at stores make so much sense and are very civilized. Part of an old-fashioned kind of luxury shopping where you go for the day but at a leisurely pace, and every time you buy something, you give it to a sales person and they keep all your purchases until you're ready to leave the store. I wonder if any stores still do that for normal shoppers, or only the top, top most spendy ones.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Saturday, 28 July 2012 22:43 (eleven years ago) link

I love the Walnut Room, which is the restaurant in Macy's, formerly Marshall Field, on State St. Love it. They serve booze! When I was a kid my mom, grandmom, and I would go shopping and each lunch in the cafe at I think Bloomingdales. I still associate club sandwiches and iced tea with shopping and being a grown up lady.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Saturday, 28 July 2012 22:47 (eleven years ago) link

i love regular nordstrom and nordstrom rack! but i am kind of a cathy cartoon when it comes to shopping, i guess.

horseshoe, Saturday, 28 July 2012 22:50 (eleven years ago) link

nordstrom was the first thing i missed about chicago, which i guess is sort of shameful.

horseshoe, Saturday, 28 July 2012 22:52 (eleven years ago) link

Oh, carl, me too! We would always have quiche lorraine and tea.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Saturday, 28 July 2012 22:53 (eleven years ago) link

Let me help you with your Nordstrom problems:

It is organized by budget!!! So, like, on the top floors, you have the priciest brands, and they are arranged roughly by how how au currant the selection is: "Savvy" describes itself as "Edgy, of-the-moment looks for the confident, fashion-forward woman. Featured brands: J Brand, MARC BY MARC JACOBS and Joie." Think 20-something fashionista's with their parent's credit card. Also "Collectors," which is 60-something Valentino/Oscar de la Renta ladies who lunch rags.

Moving on to "Individualist," you get "A collection of the most sought-after styles that take you from desk to dinner with ease. Featured brands: Vince, Theory, Tory Burch, Diane von Furstenberg, Milly and kate spade new york." Think 30-something fashionista, with or without parent's credit card.

Rounding out the top floor, we have Studio 121 (suits and workday separates) and Narrative (somewhat more casual, but aimed at a fairly conservative, older crowd), and t.b.d. (high end denim and curiously expensive tees). Then the "Women's" department (larger ladies), evening wear (for all those galas the top-floor crowd attends), and coats (in season).

Taking the escalator down one floor, we find cosmetics, accessories, shoes, and the Men's department--pretty straightforward.

Down another floor, you enter Quincie territory: "Point of View," which is like a down-market version of the top floor--think more Macy's pricing, but fuck a Macy's because that place is always such a disaster that I swear I'd rather go naked. Also on this floor is the best bra shopping experience in the city. And the cafe about which we have spoken previously. Also juniors, with it's own shoe department (worth a visit; cheaper than upstairs shoe department and sometimes has good finds). Tiny children's section--you don't find many kids running around Nordstrom (bonus!). There is like a small corner with shit resembling a "home" department, but it reminds me more of the tiniest Gump's every--more hostess-gift-for-the-hamptons sort of thing.

I hope you have found this guide to Nordstrom helpful. If you need further assistance, please see Customer Service on the top floor, near Savvy.

quincie, Saturday, 28 July 2012 22:54 (eleven years ago) link

i hate macy's a lot

horseshoe, Saturday, 28 July 2012 22:54 (eleven years ago) link

And every time we lunched there, my mom would tell us that when she went as a little girl with HER mother, they all wore white gloves. (She spent a lot of that era reminiscing about white gloves. And Easter bonnets. And...things from her childhood, I think. I wonder what was going on for her that those memories were so strong then.)

Dude, quince, that's quite an overview.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Saturday, 28 July 2012 22:55 (eleven years ago) link

Macy's EXCUSE ME I MEAN MACY*S is a horror show. And so dirty.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Saturday, 28 July 2012 22:56 (eleven years ago) link

hs, you and I will do the 8-hour shakedown of all the discount stores and clothe ourselves splendidly for a year in one day of shopping. I'm with ya, sister.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Saturday, 28 July 2012 22:58 (eleven years ago) link

I hate clothes shopping enough that I have limited my shopping world to online and the bottom two floors of Nordstrom (bottom for clothes and underthings, one floor up for cosmetics, shoes, the occasional belt). I can totally see how the organization seems confusing to the uninitiated, but it really is a very practical arrangement!

quincie, Saturday, 28 July 2012 22:58 (eleven years ago) link

Nordstrom is my favorite department store but I don't have to $ to shop there often. Went to the Nordstrom Rack in Chicago but I didn't find anything :( boo. Most Macy's are shitty but the one in Chicago was so nice and pretty!

I also love in store cafes. My mom and I used to go to the one in Nordstrom on Long Island and the Macy's in NYC.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Saturday, 28 July 2012 22:59 (eleven years ago) link

that sounds like heaven, Laurel! also quincie, can i buy your fall work wardrobe for you?

horseshoe, Saturday, 28 July 2012 23:00 (eleven years ago) link

OH MY GOD YES that would be soooooooooo awesome!!!

quincie, Saturday, 28 July 2012 23:00 (eleven years ago) link

There is little I like less than clothes shopping. I went to an outlet center today and it was a nightmare but I got what I intended (not stuff for me) so in that respect it was successful.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Saturday, 28 July 2012 23:01 (eleven years ago) link

nordstrom rack is v v hit or miss for sure. also ime at the chicago racks, often a stampede of crazed bargain-hunters.

xp yay! i am all about this, ilx women. let me personal shop for you!!!

horseshoe, Saturday, 28 July 2012 23:01 (eleven years ago) link

I love my State St. Macy's but I think it's a flagship so they keep it nice.

Nordstrom proper in Chicago is on Michigan Ave which is its own nightmare, plus I can't walk there from work. Plus they have a shit shit shitty plus size selection.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Saturday, 28 July 2012 23:02 (eleven years ago) link

UGH the flagship Macy's store in NY doesn't even have a nice place to eat now. I don't know what it had when you were younger, but I do remember maybe 6 yrs ago they turned the basement into a "food court" but all the vendors were a) independent, and b) as good as nice restaurant food. I guess that was too much work to coordinate because within a couple of years they outsourced the whole food area to one contractor and it turned into complete shit. It's like a hospital caf with a slightly wider selection now.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Saturday, 28 July 2012 23:02 (eleven years ago) link

Er that was xp to ENBB.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Saturday, 28 July 2012 23:03 (eleven years ago) link

you definitely need to fortify yourself with food on the hour if you're going to brave a nordstrom rack/filene's/tj maxx/marshall's/syms type situation.

xp :( that really sucks about the plus-size section, Jenny. sometimes i look at salon z by saks online and they have some nice stuff, but it is $$$. also not enough nice stuff imo.

horseshoe, Saturday, 28 July 2012 23:03 (eleven years ago) link

but i suck at thrift store shopping. i am just bourgie.

horseshoe, Saturday, 28 July 2012 23:04 (eleven years ago) link

The Macy's I was in in Chicago was in the loop and close to the nordstrom rack. It was really pretty inside. Is that the state street one? I think it had an old marshall field sign outside. :)

Oh that's a shame, Laurel. It definitely had a nice cafe on one of the upper floors years ago.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Saturday, 28 July 2012 23:05 (eleven years ago) link

A plus-sized boutique just opened on the main st by my apartment, I think it's sizes 12-24? They had an opening day party when I biked by! I suspect their style will be...flamboyant, though, and not very helpful to ilx-type laydeez. Otoh hs might just find something in a nice fuchsia & gold lame.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Saturday, 28 July 2012 23:06 (eleven years ago) link

horseshoe it would also be awesome if you could review my existing wardobe (which given its size will take approximately two minutes) so you can tell me what to keep, and also figure out what new stuff I should add to the staples. What I'm saying is I think you will need to come to DC and stay the night. I will lay in lots of wine!!!!

quincie, Saturday, 28 July 2012 23:06 (eleven years ago) link

you definitely need to fortify yourself with food on the hour if you're going to brave a nordstrom rack/filene's/tj maxx/marshall's/syms type situation.

Yeah, this is what I can't do. The idea of browsing through rack after rack of crap to find things scares me. Plus I really hate trying on stuff. Basically I just suck at shopping for anything that isn't an accessory.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Saturday, 28 July 2012 23:07 (eleven years ago) link

Shopping is more fun if you've reached a mutually satisfactory truce with your actual physical body.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Saturday, 28 July 2012 23:07 (eleven years ago) link

Otoh hs might just find something in a nice fuchsia & gold lame.

― check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Saturday, July 28, 2012 7:06 PM (27 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol i once bought a gold lame bathing suit from an online plus-size retailer but it is not a reasonable garment and i have never been able to wear it.

also, quincie, it's a date!

horseshoe, Saturday, 28 July 2012 23:07 (eleven years ago) link

See my Macy's has the Walnut Room, the 7th floor food court with food stations by bigwig local chefs (Rick Bayliss! Plus two other dudes I can't remember) AND a basement food court with a hot food bar that has really good meatloaf and macaroni and cheese. Also a Starbucks (maybe two, actually - one in the basement and one on an upper floor). All that was there when it was Marshall Field so Macy's only deserves credit for not fucking up an existing goof thing.

Xp yeah, E! That's the one!

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Saturday, 28 July 2012 23:08 (eleven years ago) link

(i would be guided by your personal style, of course; i would never foist gold lame on others just because i shop for clothes like i shop for candy)

horseshoe, Saturday, 28 July 2012 23:08 (eleven years ago) link

Shopping is more fun if you've reached a mutually satisfactory truce with your actual physical body.

― check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Saturday, July 28, 2012 7:07 PM (11 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I imagine it would be. One day. Hopefully.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Saturday, 28 July 2012 23:09 (eleven years ago) link

if i could afford it i'd by lots of classiques entier and lafayette 148 staples for my professional wardrobe fwiw

horseshoe, Saturday, 28 July 2012 23:10 (eleven years ago) link

buy, i meant

horseshoe, Saturday, 28 July 2012 23:10 (eleven years ago) link

x-posts Yeah, CA that was a beautiful store. I was really impressed by it. Some nice things too! I bought a skirt and a lip gloss oh and a handbag that was sold to me by the most wonderful advanced style type of old lady (http://advancedstyle.blogspot.com/). It was great.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Saturday, 28 July 2012 23:11 (eleven years ago) link

Actually I think I could do gold lame and fushia if someone just showed me how! My personal style is boring not because that is what I like, but what I can manage given my shopping aversion. I have subscriptions to Vogue and Bazaar, so clearly I like more fashion-y things than I actually wear!

quincie, Saturday, 28 July 2012 23:11 (eleven years ago) link

i think you are wrong because i definitely get a stylish vibe off your ilx persona

horseshoe, Saturday, 28 July 2012 23:12 (eleven years ago) link

hahaha that is kind, but you shall be disappointed :)

I will try to budget for a nice piece or two from the top floor (e.g. classiques or layfayette 128). I don't buy stuff often and I wear my clothes for years and years and years, so I can justify the occasional pricey piece!

quincie, Saturday, 28 July 2012 23:14 (eleven years ago) link

Macy's is often terrible, and I don't think I've ever bought anything in Nordstrom other than Xmas decs - but all of the (two) Nordstroms I have had food in the restaurant of, have been *really* good for a mall kind of place. The one in SF has white chocolate bread pudding which is sooo good.

Shopping is better in the UK I think, less department store navigating and tons of more do-able mid-range high st shops.

kinder, Saturday, 28 July 2012 23:26 (eleven years ago) link

Nordstrom Rack is my faves clothing store of that type – way less trashed than your average Ross. I still shop at all those places because I loves $$$deals$$$. The great thing about Nordstrom Rack is it has SO MANY size 10 shoes available. Ridiculous amounts. Maybe because they are a harder-to-sell size?

Crabbits, Saturday, 28 July 2012 23:31 (eleven years ago) link

for my whole life i've loved listening to dressed up old ladies in department store tearooms who wear hats and tuck into cream cakes with gusto and stoically discuss heartbreaking events. they are getting rarer but there are still a few around. my sister heard one talking about her daughter's marriage breakup, she said of her former son-in-law, 'unfortunately he let himself down very badly', which she found a refreshing and intriguing apportionment of responsibility for whatever had transpired. the person my sister was with started going on about something less interesting so she missed the rest.

my favourite department store tearoom in christchurch made it through the earthquakes, displaying the same knack for survival as its patrons. i cried when i heard it was reopening, so much of the city has gone but it's still there.

estela, Saturday, 28 July 2012 23:37 (eleven years ago) link

tons of more do-able mid-range high st shops

Agreed. I also like Debenhams a lot though. I miss Dorothy P though I think they may even ship here now.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Saturday, 28 July 2012 23:44 (eleven years ago) link

I do appreciate the selection of 10 and up shoes at N Rack, that is true.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Saturday, 28 July 2012 23:45 (eleven years ago) link

Dorothy Perkins ships to the US, yes.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Saturday, 28 July 2012 23:45 (eleven years ago) link

yeah i am always meaning to order dorothy perkins stuff

horseshoe, Saturday, 28 July 2012 23:46 (eleven years ago) link

:D I'd forgotten that they did. Oh man, this is exciting.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Saturday, 28 July 2012 23:49 (eleven years ago) link

God damn, I would love to have you come over and be my personal shopper, Horseshoe. Like, you go out and do all what my mum calls "the hunter-gathering" and I just sit in splendour in the book department and you come in and say "how about this?" and I either shake my head or try it on.

Which, actually, mirrors a lot of my shopping experiences growing up. So much so that I almost wonder if it's not that the ~shopping gene~ skips a generation, as that when you have one generation that's really into shopping, the one who is often shopped for becomes lazy and thinks of shopping as a different thing. Like, I resent not having someone go out and do the hard work of looking for the right size.

It's not even that I'm not at peace with my body (though I will never forgive it for the fleshy orbs it sprouted on my chest when I was 12. Never.) it's that I'm not at peace with shops that have half a dozen size 10s and nothing remotely near something that will fit me. That just makes shopping awful, like "here are all the lovely things you could have, if you were just... less."

I know that places like TK Maxx are cheap *because* they do not employ enough people to go round and sort everything by size/theme/brand/etc. But jesus christ it is worth going to a pricier place that employs enough helpful shop assistants to put the racks in order and even - gasp! - cheerfully offer to go and find you another size if the one you have isn't right. (It also helps if the shop assistants are closer to my age and understand about middle aged bodies, as opposed to, you know, 12 year olds who think it's acceptable to wear tights as outer garments.) If spending a few extra pounds per garment pays their salaries, good god, will happily pay it. I am so middle aged and middle class now it's not even funny.

One of my biggest problems is that I find a nice, smaller boutiquey kind of shop which does exactly what I want for about a season or two - and then I don't know if they change designers or go for a different market, but then the next time I go shopping there, the stuff I like has gone, and it's full of pastel girly-girl stuff. Ugh. Do not want. It happened at Monsoon, it happened at East, and now it seems to be happening at Seasalt - this season was the first time there was absolutely *nothing* I wanted in their catalogue. I hope it's an aberration and they will be back to normal in the Autumn.

^^^so much OTMness in this post, WCC!

quincie, Sunday, 29 July 2012 15:19 (eleven years ago) link

and then I don't know if they change designers or go for a different market

I think that trends just change, and the boutiques shift styles to follow the trends. It really annoys me, too. Like, let's get past this high-low hem thing, please, so I can buy dresses again. (Nothing against any fans of the high low hem, but I dislike it for me immensely plus I think it's going to look very dated in eight months.)

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Sunday, 29 July 2012 17:16 (eleven years ago) link

This, plus elastic waists, polyester dresses that ALL hit mid thigh, short skirts with long sheer skirt overlay (thought this was only on gofugyourself but someone got on my local bus wearing one), baggy short tops, tops that seem nice and practical but are ALL sheer >:(

kinder, Sunday, 29 July 2012 17:31 (eleven years ago) link

tops that seem nice and practical but are ALL sheer

Oh yeah discovered this when shopping for work clothes. WTF. It always makes me think of Bridge to Teribithia, the older sister has scandalized everyone by wearing a see-through shirt. That's a sad book; I don't want to think about it over and over when buying career separates!

Crabbits, Sunday, 29 July 2012 17:34 (eleven years ago) link

Plus I guess they're terribly impractical clothes and also usually polyester.

Crabbits, Sunday, 29 July 2012 17:36 (eleven years ago) link

Yeah I bought a high-low hem skirt recently even though I have misgivings about the look. I even think it looks fine; it's just got an expiration date of a few months.

horseshoe, Sunday, 29 July 2012 17:47 (eleven years ago) link

polyester dresses that ALL hit mid thigh

Arg yes. I'm hopelessly old fashioned in my skirt length preferences. My favorite is somewhere from below the knee to mid-calf (I KNOW!) but at least has to hit at just below the knee. Unless it's a pencil skirt, then at the knee is good. My best bet now is to buy maxi-dresses and hem them when it's no longer trendy to wear the equivalent of a nightgown out in public.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Sunday, 29 July 2012 17:53 (eleven years ago) link

That will be a sad day for me, by the way. I love wearing nightgowns to work.

OH you know what? I have a high-low hem skirt, but it's more like it's got an upside-down U shaped slit in it, which I wear off to one side despite where the tags are.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Sunday, 29 July 2012 17:55 (eleven years ago) link

I just realised one of my favourite work skirts is knee-length at the back then kind of goes into a lower point at the front/side. So I'm guilty of the high-low skirt after all!

kinder, Sunday, 29 July 2012 18:08 (eleven years ago) link

OK, stupid me for thinking I could ask this question on a thread with men on it, and think I could get a real answer.

How do you tell when you're attracted to someone?

It's a simple enough question, right? Can I get some suggestions? Because it's hard to tell. I can tell if I'm definitely *not* attracted to someone. But figuring out if I definitely am attracted to someone? I feel like I need a better set of metrics.

On a very basic level, you would look forward to seeing/hearing from them vs. hope that this never happens?

quincie, Sunday, 29 July 2012 19:03 (eleven years ago) link

These are some of the ways I know:
– #1 I don't feel incredibly self-conscious around them (ideally this translates as comfy vibes – butterflies or whatever can still be there but I don't feel like a fuck-up around them)
– blushing, laughing
– I think about them when I'm not around them, or they come to my mind by surprise, and once again they're not awful thoughts
– They suggest something maybe outside your comfort zone – not anything huge but like 'hey let's ice skate' and you've never done it before – and it sounds fun
– You read or see something and think 'hey that dude would like this I should show him'

Crabbits, Sunday, 29 July 2012 19:03 (eleven years ago) link

Yes, I would look forward to seeing them again and hope I do. But I also look forward to seeing friends in whom I have no romantic or sexual interest.

It is probably too early to tell. I just feel so lost in all this.

Ah, thanks Beckott, that is a good bunch of things to look out for, in future.

Do you have any ideas about some of the responses/behaviors/thoughts you might add to your own list, WCC?

Crabbits, Sunday, 29 July 2012 19:06 (eleven years ago) link

FWIW I don't think that the things that attract you to someone romantically/sexually are so different than the same things that attract you to friends in whom you do not have that interest. If you have the same "look forward to seeing" feeling, and then a little something different/extra when you are with the person, that says "romantic attraction" to me!

quincie, Sunday, 29 July 2012 19:08 (eleven years ago) link

I can't remember! It's been like, 6 or 7 years since I had sex with anyone. And most of the times that I did, I was usually so drunk that it's hard to remember what it felt like. This is like having to learn how to walk all over again.

I'm kind of in the same boat! I feel you. I've been thinking back to ten years ago when I read A Lover's Discourse. I don't know that is was very helpful but it was something.

Crabbits, Sunday, 29 July 2012 19:13 (eleven years ago) link

How to tell if someone is attracted to ME is an even bigger mystery. My friend and I went out Friday and she was joke-angry at me that I couldn't tell when guys were checking me out. I've never been very good at this. It's not easy but it's not impossible either!

Crabbits, Sunday, 29 July 2012 19:15 (eleven years ago) link

Louis CK had some routine about how marriage/divorce is like a shitty time machine that takes you into the future the length of time your marriage lasted. And when you get out you're just as dumb and confused as when you got it. I can't stop thinking about that, either!

Crabbits, Sunday, 29 July 2012 19:16 (eleven years ago) link

I am v glad you understand why I'm asking, and why this is confusing.

I can tell I'm sexually attracted to somebody if I suddenly imaging myself wildly making out with that person. Not having sex, just mashing our faces together in a big gross tongue kiss. This is not a good barometer of whether I am romantically attracted to somebody.

(kind of speaking of, men's olympic water polo is making me feel aggressively heterosexual. I think it's all the chest hair.)

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Sunday, 29 July 2012 19:24 (eleven years ago) link

That's a good idea, c.a.

But I'm not actually sure I can imagine me snogging anyone any more. Like, these days I have to imagine I'm someone else before I could even imagine snogging someone e.g. Thom Yorke to whom I definitely know I'm attracted. Like I'm that disconnected from mine own desires.

high-low hem skirt

like mullet skirts? are we talking about the same thing? I love my mullet skirts - it means i can wear something that hits above the knee without being self-conscious about butt-exposure

sarahell, Sunday, 29 July 2012 19:51 (eleven years ago) link

How to tell if someone is attracted to ME is an even bigger mystery.

I am so bad at this. I can tell if someone is attracted to another person fairly easily but for myself?

tokyo rosemary, Monday, 30 July 2012 00:03 (eleven years ago) link

I can sometimes tell if people are attracted to me. Well, some of them. The ones that get a very stupid and dopey expression on their faces and keep looking at my lips. Those ones are easy. It's the ones who get butthurt and weird and slightly aggressive, it's almost impossible to tell if they actually hate yr guts or just want to jump you and hate themselves for wanting to.

May I recommend this delightful advice blog? http://captainawkward.com/category/captain-awkwards-dating-guide-for-geeks/

There's lots of good stuff there, but the dating advice columns might be particularly useful.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Monday, 30 July 2012 12:22 (eleven years ago) link

OK, yes, this is relevant to my interests.

::bookmarks::

That took me to this:

http://pervocracy.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/geek-social-fallacies-of-sex.html

And jesus christ I think that is such a sensible thing I wish someone had carved it on the back of a drum machine and showed it to me when I was 19 or so.

so envious of captain awkward

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 30 July 2012 13:16 (eleven years ago) link

my attraction to someone is based on some kind of broken, self-sabotaging radar system. always the ones i'm not supposed to be attracted to.

rayuela, Monday, 30 July 2012 15:36 (eleven years ago) link

I bought some Spanx today (I have to wear a suit on Thursday and it's too shitting hot for hose and my raggedy old bike shorts are too grabby) and the crotch has this overlapping gusset that you're supposed to be able to pee out of and LOL at anybody who tries to do this because you will just pee all over your stupid Spanx. I kind of like having a labial air vent, though.

This card was also enclosed in the packaging:

http://www.myfavoriteeverything.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Spanx-e1272307828721.jpeg

If I'd known they were going to be so hilarious, I might have bought some of these things sooner.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Tuesday, 31 July 2012 00:02 (eleven years ago) link

I am totally going to save some plumber's butt form a burning building wearing heels, a fire hat, spanx, and my Barbie boobs.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Tuesday, 31 July 2012 00:03 (eleven years ago) link

Oh I peed through that hole the one and only time I ever wore Spanx which was on my wedding day. It is pretty difficult though and you have to sort of hold the flaps apart unless you like peeing all over your undergarments.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Tuesday, 31 July 2012 00:05 (eleven years ago) link

I Peed through the Hole in My Spanx on My Wedding Day: A Memoir by ENBB

I have zero confidence in my ability to pee through that hole.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Tuesday, 31 July 2012 00:07 (eleven years ago) link

lol, pretty much

I didn't at first iirc but I was wearing them from 7 am until 4 the next morning and some time late at night I got tired of having to roll the damn things up and down every time I had to pee (which is often, I pee a lot) and just said "screw it, I'm going for it". Thankfully no disasters occurred.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Tuesday, 31 July 2012 00:10 (eleven years ago) link

Why the suit? A good occasion, I hope?

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Tuesday, 31 July 2012 00:11 (eleven years ago) link

Just lawyer stuff. I have a theory that I only ever have to wear a suit when it's 90 degrees or above so I figured it was only a matter of time as hot as this summer has been.

7 am until 4 the next morning!!! That should go on the "You can do anything in your Spanx" card!

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Tuesday, 31 July 2012 00:15 (eleven years ago) link

Oh wait it's only going to be 88 on Thursday.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Tuesday, 31 July 2012 00:17 (eleven years ago) link

That'll still be pretty warm in a suit.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Tuesday, 31 July 2012 00:21 (eleven years ago) link

I have Spanx with pee flaps and I was super paranoid for a bit but now I'm an old pro. I pull it to the side with one hand and it all works out and I don't pee on anything. They're an under bust type with straps so it's far too annoying to take it off, but the trade off is how lovely I look in dresses with them (enbb: pulp show!)

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Tuesday, 31 July 2012 01:27 (eleven years ago) link

OKAY I am seriously considering peeing through the hole in these Spanx. I break a sweat just trying to wrassle the damn things down and back up again.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Thursday, 2 August 2012 17:27 (eleven years ago) link

YES!! That's what I meant the other day. They're a huge pita to get on and off imo.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Thursday, 2 August 2012 17:29 (eleven years ago) link

you can do it carl! Just pull the panties and have some faith! :D

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Thursday, 2 August 2012 17:31 (eleven years ago) link

I couldn't do it. I don't mean I tried and peed all over myself, I mean I started to try and my brain was like "http://dealbreaker.com/uploads/2010/09/drudge-siren1.gifNO YOU ARE STILL WEARING PANTS YOU CANNOT PEE NO NO NOhttp://dealbreaker.com/uploads/2010/09/drudge-siren1.gif" so I gave up.

Here is a shocking Spanx surprise, however: they are kind of comfortable? They are hell to pull on, but once they're up, they feel pretty good. I bought them a size bigger than I needed so maybe that's why.

Also, per our previous shopping discussion: http://ask.metafilter.com/219176/Levis-at-JC-Penny-just-cheap-or-crap

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Thursday, 2 August 2012 19:31 (eleven years ago) link

try it once at home, where you can change if anything bad happens. :D they do feel pretty good once yuou're used to them!

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Thursday, 2 August 2012 20:03 (eleven years ago) link

the yoda of Spanx-peeing you are

sarahell, Thursday, 2 August 2012 20:05 (eleven years ago) link

they do feel pretty good once yuou're used to them!

It's like getting a hug from my underpants all day.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Thursday, 2 August 2012 20:23 (eleven years ago) link

Heh, that reminds me of a philosophy I have: dental cleanings are like massages for your mouth. I have changed a tampon wearing spanx! I AM FEARLESS, basically.

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Thursday, 2 August 2012 20:31 (eleven years ago) link

My only experience with Spanx is with the Power Panties, of which I am a fan. I find them perfectly comfortable to wear; the getting up/down is a bit of a PIA, true, but also I am a camel and do not need to pee very often.

quincie, Saturday, 4 August 2012 22:39 (eleven years ago) link

Movers just left. Young, nice but clueless guy asked me why I didn't have a husband and why one person would need so much stuff.

ljubljana, Monday, 6 August 2012 21:06 (eleven years ago) link

Argh. I'd have thrown my hands up, acted fake flustered and cried "oh noes! No husband? Whatever could I have done with the box where I packed him?" And then insist clueless went back to check for *more* boxes. Sigh.

Fake Ve-EEEE-gan Cheese (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 6 August 2012 21:33 (eleven years ago) link

Gross. What a tool.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Monday, 6 August 2012 21:36 (eleven years ago) link

i was helping a friend move a few years ago, like heavy lifting and such, which i actually enjoy doing bc it's so physical and gives my mind a kind of yogic break (plus i like helping friends), and her dad was helping out too and later speculated to her that perhaps i didn't have a husband because i'm too independent

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Monday, 6 August 2012 21:43 (eleven years ago) link

so take these comments with about 1000 grains of salt

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Monday, 6 August 2012 21:43 (eleven years ago) link

ooof. Some Dads get a little bit of a pass because they're those sorts of Dads, but this guy was about 22.

ljubljana, Monday, 6 August 2012 21:49 (eleven years ago) link

Not trying to be cap'n save a dad, but for our parents' generation, most women did have to give up a lot of independence when they got married (I'm thinking of parents who got married in the 60s/70s). It was just expected that women would set aside whatever they were into and focus totally on their families.* I'm sure his meaning was more "She can't attract a man because men don't like independent women" as opposed to "She chooses not to be married because of what she would have to sacrifice," but the latter could be really accurate in some cases.

*I took a grrrrreat class in undergrad called Motherhood in Culture and Politics and in one of our books there was an essay by a second wave feminist who had a epiphany while making tuna salad her for family one day. She was making it the way her husband and children liked it when she realized she had no idea how she liked her tuna salad, because her preferences were irrelevant. So she left her husband and children and never made tuna salad again.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Monday, 6 August 2012 21:54 (eleven years ago) link

the funny thing is that my friend is super independent too, ah but she was moving in w her fiancé... whatevs.

I think that guy is just a pre-dad mainstreamer

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Monday, 6 August 2012 21:55 (eleven years ago) link

It sort of reminds me of a time I was helping a friend move (that's coincidental but kind of funny) and her mom grabbed my shoulders and looked carefully at my face, and then shook her head and said, "I was hoping you'd talk to (Friend) and tell her to wear eye makeup but you don't wear any either."

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Monday, 6 August 2012 22:00 (eleven years ago) link

haha that is random! and hilarious

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Monday, 6 August 2012 22:02 (eleven years ago) link

I was helping the friend move stuff from Boca Raton, FL to Boulder, CO in the summer and her mom wanted us both to wear eye makeup for the occasion! Her mom also spoke wistfully of "table setting" classes she took when she was younger and thought her daughter and I were savages because we didn't own napkin rings.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Monday, 6 August 2012 22:03 (eleven years ago) link

BTW this thread has totally made me appreciate my mum even more in that I don't remember her ever commenting on my looks or anything ever, and I'm gonna tell her when I see her this weekend.

kinder, Monday, 6 August 2012 22:04 (eleven years ago) link

<3 awwww yay.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Monday, 6 August 2012 22:05 (eleven years ago) link

OH SHIT I was supposed to call my mom yesterday and totally spaced it. Gah. I'm winning the Olympic gold medal in the Worst Daughter event.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Monday, 6 August 2012 22:05 (eleven years ago) link

hahaa
the only time I've cared abt napkin rings is when I've seen cool art-deco-ish ones in antique/second-hand shops. But I've never bought them. Maybe if I had a HUSBAND. and a real table.
xp

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Monday, 6 August 2012 22:07 (eleven years ago) link

And napkins.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Monday, 6 August 2012 22:08 (eleven years ago) link

I have some real napkins!
which I totally use just like all the time... lol

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Monday, 6 August 2012 22:16 (eleven years ago) link

We have cloth napkins that we use all the time (for the environment man), but we eat sitting on the couch in front of the TV 98% of the time so napkin rings just don't seem necessary.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Monday, 6 August 2012 22:20 (eleven years ago) link

I this point I would like to cross-ref this thread w dirtbag style thread

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Monday, 6 August 2012 22:28 (eleven years ago) link

At this point I mean.
I mostly use kleenex for everything...

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Monday, 6 August 2012 22:29 (eleven years ago) link

I'm sure this will change once I have a husband.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Monday, 6 August 2012 22:29 (eleven years ago) link

joeks

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Monday, 6 August 2012 22:30 (eleven years ago) link

Yeah, then you'll use your bath towels.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Monday, 6 August 2012 22:30 (eleven years ago) link

or my husband

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Monday, 6 August 2012 22:31 (eleven years ago) link

carl, i would be more than thrilled to gift you the napkin rings i received for christmas from a well-meaning relative 10 years ago

sarahell, Monday, 6 August 2012 22:32 (eleven years ago) link

Thank you. But I will pass. Unless they are cool and I could make earrings out of them.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Monday, 6 August 2012 22:42 (eleven years ago) link

they are gray and v uncool

sarahell, Monday, 6 August 2012 22:47 (eleven years ago) link

Sounds like a good thing to put in the thrift store donation box, IMO.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Monday, 6 August 2012 22:56 (eleven years ago) link

Xxxp v good dad-related points Carl.

ljubljana, Monday, 6 August 2012 23:35 (eleven years ago) link

The only thing my Dad cares about is that I keep my hair long. Not because of femininity, but because he is an HIPPIE - his hair is longer than mine, after all.

My Mum used to have these really cool napkin rings that were made of filaments of clear plastic of some kind - they were great because I could connect them end to end to conduct experiments in how fibre optics transmit and bend light and the like.

I am sick today so I am probably not making much sense.

Fake Ve-EEEE-gan Cheese (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Tuesday, 7 August 2012 10:29 (eleven years ago) link

mom used to really get onto us doing anything to our hair. dying, cutting, it was all bad.

when i was in high school i looked like a mennonite (this is poss inaccurate) cause i wasn't allowed to cut my hair. at 18 i cut it to my shoulders and thought i was a huge rebel

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 7 August 2012 14:08 (eleven years ago) link

Ugh, I cannot believe that at my advanced age, I still need my mom to wade in and break it up when my sister starts acting like a total tosser, ie. acts all outraged that anyone would have the audacity to hold her to normal human standards of behaviour.

higgs' besom (suzy), Tuesday, 7 August 2012 14:42 (eleven years ago) link

wow what kind of stuff does she do

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 8 August 2012 03:47 (eleven years ago) link

Between us, we were awarded $2500 by a relative's estate. Sister dearest was holding my half for when I needed a plane ticket, but helped herself to this money without asking permission when she was 'between paychecks' (if she had asked permission and explained her circs, I'd definitely have allowed it, NBD). She's never been able to pass a cookie jar without thrusting her hand into it. As luck would have it, I needed some of this money last week and asked her to wire some of it. She couldn't, blamed being 'between checks' again. Between the lines of my messages one could read 'well, you could have asked permission and if you didn't STEAL we wouldn't be having this conversation'. Cue all sorts of bad deflection/puffed-up entitlement ie. CAN'T YOU SEE I AM TRYING TO RUN A BUSINESS HERE/I WORK SO HARD/STOP TREATING ME LIKE A TWO YEAR OLD. Also, I am rude because I never ask how she is or make small-talk when we're in this situation. RAGE.

Additionally, all under-duress communication from my sister must include (possibly by statute) overuse of exclamation marks and at least one incidence of 'could of'/'should of' in each small paragraph. DOUBLE RAGE.

higgs' besom (suzy), Wednesday, 8 August 2012 07:15 (eleven years ago) link

OK that last bit alone would make me punchy let alone the rest!

Pureed Moods (Trayce), Wednesday, 8 August 2012 08:11 (eleven years ago) link

oh man, that is not okay. i'm really sorry, suzy.

Between the lines of my messages one could read 'well, you could have asked permission and if you didn't STEAL we wouldn't be having this conversation'.

honestly, it sounds like you handled this pretty controlledly. i think i would have been incoherent with rage and yelled at her.

horseshoe, Wednesday, 8 August 2012 13:37 (eleven years ago) link

It was via the magic of Facebook messages so there was no opportunity for DECIBELS.

My MO for dealing with her incoherent messages is to a) use multi-syllabic fifty-center vocab words or shoehorn in a correct 'could have' in any response and b) go into total Vulcan mode. After 20+ years of this crap (she has stolen from my mom to gamble in the past) she is very, very lucky there are approximately 4000 miles between us.

higgs' besom (suzy), Wednesday, 8 August 2012 16:13 (eleven years ago) link

AN OPEN LETTER TO THE GUY WHO HELPFULLY ANNOUNCED “DAAAAAMN BITCH, YOU FAT!” TO ME IN THE TARGET PARKING LOT THIS MORNING

You probably think the only place I belong is wherever you can’t see me, ideally in the dark, behind closed doors. You need protection from having my big old fat self out there polluting your visual landscape, like I think I have a right to go anyplace I want, like I think I have a right to force people who find my body offensive to look at me. How you must suffer. Allow me to break out the world’s fattest violin.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Thursday, 9 August 2012 18:36 (eleven years ago) link

I love Leslie Kinzel. She's hilarious and OTM.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Thursday, 9 August 2012 18:41 (eleven years ago) link

Right. On.

Norton Malreward (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Thursday, 9 August 2012 18:46 (eleven years ago) link

Yeah, Leslie is great. She rocks some awesome manicures too.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Thursday, 9 August 2012 18:50 (eleven years ago) link

I never learn, do I?

:-(

Norton Malreward (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Thursday, 9 August 2012 20:37 (eleven years ago) link

some douchebag called you fat in a parking lot, too?

sarahell, Thursday, 9 August 2012 20:39 (eleven years ago) link

No, it was just a vague sigh of disappointment with myself for acting like a bull in a thread where dude-bros were having fun waving their favourite flags.

Norton Malreward (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Thursday, 9 August 2012 20:43 (eleven years ago) link

you are an Aries, though, right?

sarahell, Thursday, 9 August 2012 20:53 (eleven years ago) link

I sure am. ::makes devil horns sign::

Chewton Mendip (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Thursday, 9 August 2012 20:56 (eleven years ago) link

so don't let whatever dude-bros say bother you

sarahell, Thursday, 9 August 2012 20:58 (eleven years ago) link

I'm not bothered by what they said, I'm bothered by my inability to contain my snark sometimes.

n/m

Chewton Mendip (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Thursday, 9 August 2012 21:00 (eleven years ago) link

you give good snark, WCC, fuck the haters!

sarahell, Thursday, 9 August 2012 21:00 (eleven years ago) link

::devil horns:: you rawk sarahell!

(don't know why I'm into devil horns tonight. I blame painkillers)

Chewton Mendip (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Thursday, 9 August 2012 21:04 (eleven years ago) link

I don't know what I was hoping for when I searched for "ram with devil horns" but I definitely did not find the cute picture of a ram throwing devil horns that I was hoping form. Or even a particularly demonic looking ram.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Thursday, 9 August 2012 21:21 (eleven years ago) link

meanwhile the animated .gif from "altered states" that was on the "goat eyes" thread doesn't show up anymore

sarahell, Thursday, 9 August 2012 21:23 (eleven years ago) link

sad :(

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Thursday, 9 August 2012 22:00 (eleven years ago) link

the 2nd one is my fave!

sarahell, Thursday, 9 August 2012 22:06 (eleven years ago) link

Nice.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Thursday, 9 August 2012 22:14 (eleven years ago) link

gifs 4 all time

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Thursday, 9 August 2012 22:16 (eleven years ago) link

Man saw the cutest boy at a show I'm at. Need to learn how to hit on ppl.

rayuela, Friday, 10 August 2012 04:26 (eleven years ago) link

Things ILX has taught me:

1) a well deployed gif in the right place can be awesome
2) you don't have to pretend you like music that does nothing for you in order to impress a dude
3) you don't have to pretend you don't like the music that you do because a dude might sneer at you
4) you don't have to spend time talking to someone who repeatedly ignores your boundaries
5) trust your instincts, if everyone is defending/promoting someone who made you v v uncomfortable, you do not have to agree
6) you don't have to feel sorry for or guilty about 2, 3, 4 or 5

These are things that have been bouncing around my head all night. I haven't slept very well.

Chewton Mendip (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Friday, 10 August 2012 06:03 (eleven years ago) link

I really wish I could turn off my brain sometimes. But at least I didn't have nightmares about the 9-eyed devil-jesus goat gifs which I totally thought I was going to.

Chewton Mendip (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Friday, 10 August 2012 06:06 (eleven years ago) link

I hate the shirt I'm wearing today and I'm not cold but have nipples for miles. Actually, I hate the skirt I'm wearing, too, or maybe it's the skirt with the shirt. Anyway, one of those days.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Wednesday, 15 August 2012 16:03 (eleven years ago) link

Hate those kinds of days.

Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 15 August 2012 16:11 (eleven years ago) link

Sometimes on those days I go to the local "cheap clothes for $10" store and just replace part of my outfit. I know the $5 t-shirts are sewn by paralyzed enslaved orphans in a country wracked by civil war, global warming, and the seven plagues but sometimes professional embarrassment is too high a price.

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Wednesday, 15 August 2012 16:11 (eleven years ago) link

I was thinking about doing that but thought I was overreacting! Thank you for the validation.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Wednesday, 15 August 2012 16:14 (eleven years ago) link

Haha why do you think I have 3 of the same too-tight white scoop-neck Tshirt that I wear under sweaters and stuff?

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Wednesday, 15 August 2012 16:16 (eleven years ago) link

I'm not cold but have nipples for miles

this is never not a problem for me, so i just bought these

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00207OAI4/ref=ox_ya_os_product

hoping they're shipped in a nondescript box, as they're coming to my workplace.

rayuela, Wednesday, 15 August 2012 16:23 (eleven years ago) link

You know that moment where you're kind of annoyed about something, but not seriously annoyed, just "this is annoying" kind of level of annoyed? And then someone comes in and makes out like you are being "crazy shouting lady"? And that characterisation, which you feel is totally unfair, *that* flips you into full-on rage mode? That.

(It's almost like they know that that this is a thing that will completely unbalance you, and so that's why they deploy it.)

But never mind.

Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 15 August 2012 16:24 (eleven years ago) link

I know that all too well.

ms. cookie (carl agatha), Wednesday, 15 August 2012 16:27 (eleven years ago) link

In small mercies, I really like the shirt I'm wearing today. I should concentrate on that instead. It's one of the things I got in the Laurel-inspired shopping trip.

Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 15 August 2012 16:29 (eleven years ago) link

yes.

once i was giving a coworker shit about saying some mildly misogynistic stuff, but it was a happy hour and everyone was kind of drunk so i was trying to keep my tone light, and he got all, c'mon, you're being too sensitive!!! and then i yelled at him for real.

rayuela, Wednesday, 15 August 2012 16:30 (eleven years ago) link

Woo! xp

check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Wednesday, 15 August 2012 16:30 (eleven years ago) link

I know I shouldn't do this, because I will get accused of all sorts of terrible things, but, WCC, are you talking about this post?

this thread is like when you're talking to someone in a hallway and they start to describe an argument they recently had with someone. in telling the story the gradually shift into a mode where they're impersonating the argument. then they get really into it and you, as a listener, are morphed into the person that they recently had the argument with, and pretty soon you're just getting yelled at in a hallway

― Thanks WEBSITE!! (Z S), Wednesday, August 15, 2012 3:57 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Because it specifically says that THE WHOLE THREAD is like that. And other people who follow it suggest it should be an ENTIRE BOARD DESCRIPTION. It is not targeted at you, it is not even gendered.

Nobody called you a crazy shouting lady. Saying that is not lampshading or gaslighting, it is simply the truth. They may have made you feel small by reminding you of other times that people have called you such things, but they didn't do it themselves. I am not saying that you're not allowed to feel hurt that your participation in the thread is described as such. I'm just saying that it was not aimed at your participation alone. I'm not saying that your past experiences are invalid or non-existent, I'm just saying that the words that are actually written are important, as well as the history you bring to them.

emil.y, Wednesday, 15 August 2012 16:44 (eleven years ago) link

I know I shouldn't do this

You're right. You shouldn't do that.

Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 15 August 2012 18:26 (eleven years ago) link

two weeks pass...

not sure where else to put this but: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/7595532/Breastapo-tactics-upset-bottle-feeders

this is so insane to me!!!!

The ministry contracts the NZ Breastfeeding Authority to audit maternity facilities to be "baby friendly", as part of New Zealand's obligations to the World Health Organisation and Unicef. Nearly all maternity facilities are currently accredited.

Under the baby-friendly policy, mothers must make an “informed decision on feeding”, but formula cannot be discussed during antenatal classes. To retain the baby-friendly accreditation, maternity units must maintain an 80 per cent exclusive breastfeeding rate.

there was an earlier article on this, and it mentioned some tv ad (i forget the subject) which featured a famous NZ sportsman bottle-feeding his kid - ppl went CRAZY complaining that it promoted formula-feeding... no mention of how maybe there was BREAST MILK in that bottle, so that both parents can share parenting duties????

just1n3, Sunday, 2 September 2012 00:28 (eleven years ago) link

Yeah, it's nuts. I understand encouraging breastfeeding - it's healthier and more economical for a start. There are, however, many reasons that might make it extremely difficult or impossible for some women to breastfeed and that those mothers are made to feel bad about deciding to formula feed really makes me angry. In some cases choosing to formula/bottle feed is really a decision that enable the mom to be the best parent she can be (work, stress because bfeeding isn't going well, whatever) and it's awful how women who choose that route are often demonized.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Sunday, 2 September 2012 02:23 (eleven years ago) link

Yep, friend of mine couldnt bf due to severe mastitis, and thanks to naggy snippy people judging her she ended up having a breakdown :/

frances boredom coconut (Trayce), Sunday, 2 September 2012 02:36 (eleven years ago) link

As I've said on some other thread, the claims people make about breastfeeding are overstated most of the time at best and misleading at worst. There are simply too many variables that affect children's health outcomes...to say for certain that breastfeeding plays as big a role as we're currently saying it does is bananas.

kate78, Sunday, 2 September 2012 02:37 (eleven years ago) link

one of the women interviewed in that article had someone say to her 'if you can't breastfeed you shouldn't breed' - what the fucking fuck?????

just1n3, Sunday, 2 September 2012 02:43 (eleven years ago) link

x-post - Oh nice, will read later.

Yeah, it is a little crazy. I think it at least started well-intentioned after a couple decades where formula feeding was the norm and women weren't really encouraged to breastfeed at all but it's going totally the other way and just seems a bit extreme. Make whatever choice allows you to parent to the best of your ability, you know? Formula isn't evil - the kid will be fine.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Sunday, 2 September 2012 02:47 (eleven years ago) link

OTM

carl agatha, Sunday, 2 September 2012 03:36 (eleven years ago) link

Breastfeeding seems to be rare in the small towns I have been in, per the pediatrician offices I visit. Not everyone can do it and feel lucky and grateful that I have been able to. But because I do, I worry constantly about the quality of my milk. So far, our baby is where she should be, if not better, so I continue.

The impression I have had is that breast milk is only healthy if you are. I have never thought breast milk across the board is good, all individual, many variables. I know programs like WIC emphasize breastfeeding for economic reasons but also stress a well balanced diet to do so.

I do know of a woman who was dead set on breastfeeding despite the fact that her pediatrician said her baby was not thriving and should be switched to formula. She refused to switch. I have no idea what happened to her or her baby but that is an example of what can happen where there is a heavy pressure to breastfeed.

Based on a documentary I once saw, New Zealand is where just about everyone has a micro farm in their backyard, make their own soap and clothing, harvest their own salad and honey.....so that article doesn't surprise me.

*tera, Sunday, 2 September 2012 07:36 (eleven years ago) link

That's the image nz sells to the rest of the world, but believe me - it's far from true

just1n3, Sunday, 2 September 2012 15:40 (eleven years ago) link

Do tell....less creepy thinking most of the country is not a commune.

*tera, Monday, 3 September 2012 00:24 (eleven years ago) link

just read the comments on any news story from stuff.co.nz, i think that will reveal NZ is as full of empathy-lacking, greedy, sexist, racist, homophobic assholes as anywhere else

just1n3, Monday, 3 September 2012 17:49 (eleven years ago) link

Hey to change the topic, any other gals w/the nuvaring here? If so, leave it in during?? Or take out? Can you tell? My uterus is flippy floppy so I don't think it's in the normal position for me.

ms fotheringham (Crabbits), Monday, 3 September 2012 18:00 (eleven years ago) link

Also does anyone else constantly read nuvaring as a verb in the present participle??

ms fotheringham (Crabbits), Monday, 3 September 2012 18:01 (eleven years ago) link

leave it in.

kate78, Monday, 3 September 2012 18:12 (eleven years ago) link

i don't use it anymore but i never took it out, couldn't tell, was never a prob outside of the hormones being a prob (which is why i stopped using it)

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Monday, 3 September 2012 18:30 (eleven years ago) link

well, i mean i took it out when it was time to take it out, but not for any other reason

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Monday, 3 September 2012 18:31 (eleven years ago) link

Yeah. Don't have one now but had one and you leave it in.

carl agatha, Monday, 3 September 2012 22:26 (eleven years ago) link

this pic of natalie wood cracked me up
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9g05l0Biz1qdjn0ao1_500.jpg

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Monday, 10 September 2012 15:22 (eleven years ago) link

It's like she knows how ridiculous that dress is, but is having fun with it anyway. Awwww. Poor Nat.

carl agatha, Monday, 10 September 2012 15:42 (eleven years ago) link

i was looking at her yoni hands + huge smile!

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Monday, 10 September 2012 15:43 (eleven years ago) link

W/r/t nuvaring: leave it in. Be aware, though, that the physical um interaction can pull/suction it out without anyone noticing? I woke up with it lost in the sheets more than once, and that means it was out for hours longer than it's supposed to be. Didn't prove to be a problem, but it was not reassuring.

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Monday, 10 September 2012 15:58 (eleven years ago) link

I am just gonna sit here and lol for a while at "yoni hands."

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Monday, 10 September 2012 15:59 (eleven years ago) link

You can also experience a "ring toss" situation with the Nuva Ring, but I do not view that as a drawback because it's hilarious.

carl agatha, Monday, 10 September 2012 16:01 (eleven years ago) link

i had to think about that for a minute. and then, OH.

lolz.

JuliaA, Monday, 10 September 2012 18:01 (eleven years ago) link

yoni hands

omg

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Monday, 10 September 2012 18:26 (eleven years ago) link

wow I did not know yoni hands are a thing. Jay-z does this a lot, but not in front of his vagina. I think it's the Official Gesture of Roc-a-Fella records (don't even get me started on THAT name..)

http://www.pointsincase.com/files/u2/jay-z-roc-sign.jpg

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Monday, 10 September 2012 18:40 (eleven years ago) link

i always left the nuva ring in. my gyno told me that since it has such a low dose of hormones that it's best to only take it out if absolutely necessary? take that w/ a grain, because i don't think i've seen that in any literature.

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Monday, 10 September 2012 19:41 (eleven years ago) link

I think the official lit says UP TO 3 HOURS, or at least it used to. I always assumed that was the most cautious possible estimate and that it was likely to be okay for longer than that, but who wants to chance it? Not me.

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Monday, 10 September 2012 19:52 (eleven years ago) link

it is the only hormonal method ever that didnt make me feel like an emotionless zombie

the most astonishing writer on ilx (roxymuzak), Monday, 10 September 2012 20:06 (eleven years ago) link

I know. I've used it two or three different times. Eventually even the low level of hormones was too much for me, also I had some srs personal problems I should have solved sooner rather than later which were probably was was REALLY making me a zombie but I'm grateful for my IUD anyway.

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Monday, 10 September 2012 20:14 (eleven years ago) link

I am getting mine out in a couple weeks and I'm scared! I hope it doesn't hurt too bad.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Monday, 10 September 2012 22:52 (eleven years ago) link

When I had one out, it was eh painful-ish, but also really fast. Totally different from the insertion in that it was over so quickly.

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Monday, 10 September 2012 22:53 (eleven years ago) link

OK, good. That's what I was hoping.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Monday, 10 September 2012 22:54 (eleven years ago) link

Oh yeah, I had an IUD taken out and it was nothing. No worse than a pap smear, and totally unlike the insertion (which made me want to die).

carl agatha, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 00:32 (eleven years ago) link

Thanks guys, I feel better.

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Tuesday, 11 September 2012 00:45 (eleven years ago) link

I have been going condoms-only and I'm just too paranoid for it. Plus freaky deaky accident already! God! Went to pull it out and I followed all the directions – held onto it at the base and whatnot, but it was stuck inside me and didn't want to come out?? Such a thing has never happened before. My #1 rule is no babies so I hope the plan B did its job.

IUD insertion didn't work for me. The man who 'tried' to insert it was one of the most condescending authority figures I've had to deal with in my life.

ms fotheringham (Crabbits), Tuesday, 11 September 2012 01:25 (eleven years ago) link

lol <3 "my #1 rule is no babies"
i love that rule

horribl ecreature (harbl), Tuesday, 11 September 2012 01:27 (eleven years ago) link

yes
I have a little 1" piece of cardboard with this picture taped to my turntable

http://www.thefix.com/sites/default/files/styles/article/public/no-pregnancy-fix.jpg

ms fotheringham (Crabbits), Tuesday, 11 September 2012 01:32 (eleven years ago) link

you have no idea how happy that makes me

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Tuesday, 11 September 2012 01:33 (eleven years ago) link

i recognize it from somewhere. is it from an accutane container? i think my friend showed me something like that when she was on it but i could be misremembering

horribl ecreature (harbl), Tuesday, 11 September 2012 01:34 (eleven years ago) link

yes, I had an endless supply of them when my brother was taking Accutane

ms fotheringham (Crabbits), Tuesday, 11 September 2012 01:35 (eleven years ago) link

Hmmm. I feel like I would kind of like to discuss this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/sep/17/cool-girl-gone-girl

Adewunmi is generally a pretty cool columnist, and I have not read the book in question, but there is just so much "Hmmmmm" in my response to that article.

Because this assumption (from the book, rather than Adewunmi herself): "You are not dating a woman, you are dating a woman who has watched too many movies written by socially awkward men who'd like to believe that this kind of woman exists and might kiss them." is such bullshit.

I don't doubt that that trope exists and is manipulated in male authored films to turn into a new kind of MPDG. But there *are* girls who grow up tomboys and geekgirls and have interests associated with the "wrong" gender and are into those things because we like them not because we're looking for ~male approval~.

Which I think she tries to get into in the latter half of the article, but at the same time, I'm still feeling butthurt and twitchy at being told that because a kind of woman has been manipulated into a male fantasy figure, that means somehow she doesn't exist at all? It just feels like one of those "you can't win either way." But maybe I don't know what she's talking about because I haven't seen the films or read the book. But having spent most of my life being "the girl who was not into girly shit" I resent being told I was that way because of ~Patriarchy~.

The Kelvin Helmholtz Instability (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 17 September 2012 09:56 (eleven years ago) link

having spent most of my life being "the girl who was not into girly shit" I resent being told I was that way because of ~Patriarchy~.

tbh i was that way because of patriarchy? i mean, not because i wanted to be attractive but at least in part because as a child i thought boy things were better than girl things (once i'd ascertained that the use of things was gendered), and i lived in a culture which confirmed this belief for me, so that my nascent interest in e.g. playing with toy cars or listening to indie became a repudiation of 'girly shit'. But everyone is the way they are because of patriarchy! it has been an inextricable part of our culture, we can work against it in ourselves but the fact that it was there will always be true.

that is a confused article, anyway - the "cool girl" the quote is railing against is a ladette type, not an MPDG at all.

chasm jar pro (c sharp major), Monday, 17 September 2012 10:09 (eleven years ago) link

also: we can win either way

chasm jar pro (c sharp major), Monday, 17 September 2012 10:09 (eleven years ago) link

i guess the secret is to remember that other people's definitions never apply to them and so clearly cannot apply to us

chasm jar pro (c sharp major), Monday, 17 September 2012 10:10 (eleven years ago) link

Yeah, that is part of what is confusing me, the conflation of ladette and MPDG which seem to me to be different phenomenon. (Though they are both caricatures which are marketed as male romantic fantasy figures.)

I don't think that ~Patriarchy~ was to blame for my tendencies (though obviously I have probably internalised a lot of the automatic dismissal of "girly shit" because Patriarchy) but because I honestly did not realise that I was a non-Boy until I hit puberty and sprouted breasts. Until that point, I did not see any difference between myself and my brother and did not understand why suddenly puberty meant that I had to develop different interests than I had always had.

The Kelvin Helmholtz Instability (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 17 September 2012 10:14 (eleven years ago) link

I get that Patriarchy exists and it does horrible twisted things to people. But women can exist in ways that are not necessarily always derived from Patriarchy.

The Kelvin Helmholtz Instability (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 17 September 2012 10:16 (eleven years ago) link

women can exist in any damn way they like, it's true.

i honestly do not think the article is worth the time it would take to work out what it is trying to say beyond "some women seem to have made more of an effort to fulfil certain male fantasy roles but tbh it's hard for everyone and judging is nagl"

chasm jar pro (c sharp major), Monday, 17 September 2012 10:24 (eleven years ago) link

I guess that's it, though. Just that despairing sense of "oh god is this yet another thing that I'm going to be judged on? Fuck that."

The Kelvin Helmholtz Instability (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 17 September 2012 10:30 (eleven years ago) link

Hokay, sorry for long and self-absorbed post.

I am totally a tomboy and a geek with very male-coded interests and I did not read myself in that excerpt AT ALL because I have never been the "cool girl" - too ugly and neurotic by far. In fact I can get p. angry when people say "why don't more women like this thing", because it seems to mean "why don't some women who are Cool Girls like it, because I am going to pretend women like you who like it don't exist, and if you continue to remind me that you do I'll get v. unpleasant telling everyone your Cool Girl credentials or your Liking My Stuff credentials are not up to snuff".

(Though I'm not sure the Cool Girls get off any more lightly on that part. I guess they just get less of Phase 1: Ignoring and more Phase 2: Gatekeeping. What I took from "Cool Girl": mainly hot but also socially "fun", plus maybe some nastier back-stabbing anti-feminist aspects listed in the article but not the original rant, which I won't list so we don't have to argue abt how straw-womany they are, which is probably a little but I know I was guilty of some of them when younger and insecure in a mostly-male group)

So I'd agree the conflation of MPDGs and hot ladettes and geek girls into one big category of Women Who Like Man Stuff without considering the different ways in which they like Man Stuff and the different reactions they get for it - never mind the different categories of Man whose Stuff is being liked - is not very helpful here.

But I read this post on "'fake' geek girls" yesterday and it ties into the bits of this I can relate to, so here it is: http://www.themarysue.com/on-the-fake-geek-girl/

(Interesting post, C#. I was into boy stuff before I knew it was gendered, of course, but definitely entered a feedback loop when I was at primary school that the stuff other girls liked must be Bad and whatever the boys liked must be Good, and later was drawn to interests not shared by others at my girls' secondary school; maybe pure iconoclasm plus not even knowing any boys, and obviously the origins of likes/dislikes are always tangled, but probably still an element of privileging male interests, yes.)

still small voice of clam (a passing spacecadet), Monday, 17 September 2012 13:18 (eleven years ago) link

Yeah the 'fake geek girl' thing is a red herring – if there are geek posers it's not a gendered phenomenon.

pet carrier (Crabbits), Monday, 17 September 2012 13:20 (eleven years ago) link

I try not to read about any of this stuff anymore so I can just go deeper into my own fantasyland of what a fun woman's life is like without worrying I'm fitting some kind of (patriarchy-tooled?) stereotype. I spent my mid-'20s worrying about all that shit, image, and I had no fun at all.

pet carrier (Crabbits), Monday, 17 September 2012 13:23 (eleven years ago) link

yeah i always just ignore "articles"/opinion pieces like that because clearly they are not talking about me as a subject or as an audience so NEXT

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Monday, 17 September 2012 13:23 (eleven years ago) link

whoa xp

pet carrier (Crabbits), Monday, 17 September 2012 13:23 (eleven years ago) link

i meant that thing about "cool girls" -- i didn't mean your fantasyland. I live there too!

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Monday, 17 September 2012 13:29 (eleven years ago) link

meaning also that i have stopped trying to figure out where i "fit in". i don't feel like i fit in anywhere, so i just carry on not worrying about it. i guess to some degree everyone's interested in defining themselves but i have little interest in that, for the most part.

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Monday, 17 September 2012 13:30 (eleven years ago) link

I suppose I just let that one get through the filter because I normally like the author.

The "fake geek girls" article and the whole minor geekworld clusterfuck that it was written in response to is something that has been doing my head in. Different people trying to carve out some kind of identity within "geek" or "hipster" or exclude/banish others, as if it's a binary. Mostly I just eyerolly about that stuff because I'm too old to care. But I'm certainly familiar with the phenomenon described, the gatekeeping deployed against women but that doesn't only happen in geek worlds.

Ugh, I shouldn't have eaten that cheesecake at lunch I've got major sugarcrash and can't think/post straight now.

The Kelvin Helmholtz Instability (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 17 September 2012 13:34 (eleven years ago) link

ha LL no the xp was whoa because who PSYCHIC LINK

pet carrier (Crabbits), Monday, 17 September 2012 13:37 (eleven years ago) link

I try not to read about any of this stuff anymore so I can just go deeper into my own fantasyland of what a fun woman's life is like without worrying I'm fitting some kind of (patriarchy-tooled?) stereotype.

TBH this sounds like the right answer, and yes I have long since given up on "fitting in" so why worry? But I guess I'm worried that in some ways the stereotypes and divides seem even harder to avoid than when I was a kid, and maybe one day (soonish if ever, for purely biological reasons, not a declaration of immediate intent) I'll have kids, and how can I steer them round this shit?

I mean I don't have any concrete evidence that it's getting worse, just a lot of my friends are having kids and all the mothers with daughters have said things like "we were totally not going the pink princess route because it's so limiting and I didn't like it as a kid but she's really picked up on it and insists on it", plus thinking of the female musicians I loved as a teenager and drawing a blank thinking of modern equivalents, or seeing sexist crap in the music press and thinking, ok, it was a boys' club when I was 15 but not like this... all purely anecdotal and hopefully more reflective of me looking in the wrong places than the world changing

still small voice of clam (a passing spacecadet), Monday, 17 September 2012 13:37 (eleven years ago) link

WCC -- I guess I feel like if it's bothering you so much, why are you immersing yourself in the discussion? I guess that's my natural tendency -- to flee conflict -- and it's not that great of a tendency, but it does protect me from getting overly upset about stuff. Sometimes I get overly upset about international relations or private corporate greed or the intersection of these two things. I know the feeling of being upset about a current topic. But I have to make myself take breaks, especially if there's nothing I can do about the situation from my current position in life. It's why I couldn't go into that field professionally! It would have taken over my brain and made me MISERABLE.

Anyway, I don't mean to diminish your feelings or your reaction to this article -- I just wanted to add my unsolicited $0.02 about the topic.

ha LL no the xp was whoa because who PSYCHIC LINK
you've seen it too! :D

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Monday, 17 September 2012 13:39 (eleven years ago) link

Seriously the less I read about anything about how you present yourself to the world, the more at peace with myself I am. I had made *the mistake* of reading something about what kind of decor will help you get laid (har) if you bring over a man. Which, why did I read that? What was I thinking? It made my house I worked so hard to carefully decorate after my own dreams – it made my house seem the product of a deranged mind for a couple days. Which it isn't. Garbage in, garbage out, and there's so much garbage in disguise as reading material.

Anyway I have a giant framed print of this over my bed, and guess who has sex under it, it's this lady
http://www.bongonews.com/StoryImages/double_entendre_-_beating_off.jpg

pet carrier (Crabbits), Monday, 17 September 2012 13:41 (eleven years ago) link

Hey, I'm not upset. I just thought it was something worth discussing. And seeing if other people thought it was kinda bullshit, too.

I follow the discussion because I'm interested in it, the gendering of interests etc. etc.

I don't believe in that whole "if something upsets you, ignore it" way of thinking because these things have ways of affecting you, even when - especially when - you're not paying attention to them. So I think it's better to be aware of, and be aware of the countering mechanisms with this stuff.

Anyway, I wasn't upset at all before. (But now it's kinda bothering me a tiny bit that people can no longer tell the difference between "WCC thinkin' bout stuff out loud" and "WCC actually upset.")

The Kelvin Helmholtz Instability (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 17 September 2012 13:45 (eleven years ago) link

I'm gonna go make more smutty jokes about "standard deviations" with OfficeBoy now instead.

The Kelvin Helmholtz Instability (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 17 September 2012 13:46 (eleven years ago) link

Anyway my Blakean friends you can always call upon the spirit of Los in Jerusalem: "I must create a system, or be enslaved by another man's."
xp

pet carrier (Crabbits), Monday, 17 September 2012 13:46 (eleven years ago) link

6 billions xposts gatekeeping deployed against women but that doesn't only happen in geek worlds

Oh agreed but
1. that's where I personally see it most;
2. it maybe takes on a slightly different form, in some ways more blatant and in some more insidious? maybe not, but
3. geeks have this horrible conviction that they are Logical Beings and that therefore every thought that enters their head is purely logical and anything which contradicts with it must be illogical, and it gets unpleasant if you try to point out that their kneejerk emotionally-based ideas are not in fact pure binary instructions read off the ROM of the universe

(ok, conviction in your own rightness is a purely human trait rather than a geek thing too, but it's slightly more entrenched as OK to talk like you're the only logical being in the room if you're a geek, or a politician)

I've got a bit off-topic here, sorry, the bees have carried my bonnet over a cliff with me still in it

still small voice of clam (a passing spacecadet), Monday, 17 September 2012 13:51 (eleven years ago) link

Yes yes yes, especially to No. 3 there.

The Kelvin Helmholtz Instability (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 17 September 2012 13:53 (eleven years ago) link

<i>women can exist in any damn way they like, it's true.

i honestly do not think the article is worth the time it would take to work out what it is trying to say beyond "some women seem to have made more of an effort to fulfil certain male fantasy roles but tbh it's hard for everyone and judging is nagl"</i>

Read the article and became irritated. Fuck that! I have always liked what I liked without it being a part of some strategy. My likes and dislikes, interests and hobbies have never been part of some strategy to snag a man. They have come in and out of fashion, hipsterdom etc... over the decades but I was there before and remained after. This article reminds me of branding and all that is associated with that. Deconstructing a group until it is so finely filtered and can fit into a nifty lil label or niche demographic. I can care less who is out there trying to be someone they are not. I imagine that shit is hard.

*tera, Monday, 17 September 2012 14:03 (eleven years ago) link

ugh! bbcode...sorry

*tera, Monday, 17 September 2012 14:03 (eleven years ago) link

aaggggghhhh i just remembered how cute harold "happy" chichester is
but this is the saddest thing i have ever seen http://www.howlinmaggie.net/fans/categories.php

AND THEN i went to his facebook page and saw that he is recovering from a bout of bell's palsy!

whoa

sorry for the fluffy subject matter, but apparently my girlish crush on this person persists even after all these years even though i completely forgot about him after 1998 or so?
that's a no boys allowed topic if i've ever heard one

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Monday, 1 October 2012 13:39 (eleven years ago) link

Aw. I had Bell's Palsy once. It was really dumb.

carl agatha, Monday, 1 October 2012 14:07 (eleven years ago) link

two weeks pass...

i had a lengthy dream last in which i was on a date with damon albarn who was not yet famous and it was awesome.

we ate some kind of pink goop on a bridge. when i woke up and went into the kitchen i noticed my only edible food was some kind of pink jello. not the part of this dream i was hoping would come true.

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Thursday, 18 October 2012 20:18 (eleven years ago) link

damnit, Albarn <3

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Thursday, 18 October 2012 20:59 (eleven years ago) link

brb eating pink goop

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Thursday, 18 October 2012 21:01 (eleven years ago) link

God I could still look at pictures of Blur all day

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Friday, 19 October 2012 20:04 (eleven years ago) link

When I met A he had such an Alex James haircut but he kept getting called emo at work & swore longish hair off forever!

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Friday, 19 October 2012 20:05 (eleven years ago) link

literally skipping class to look at pictures of blur all day

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Friday, 19 October 2012 20:11 (eleven years ago) link

ok there are other factors but

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Friday, 19 October 2012 20:11 (eleven years ago) link

haha graham coxon looks just like me in 1995 only way cuter

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Friday, 19 October 2012 20:13 (eleven years ago) link

imo that is one of the hottest pics of graham

i think a deep part of my attraction to damon albarn is bound up witht the fact that he annoys me on some level. lol

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Friday, 19 October 2012 20:16 (eleven years ago) link

yeah he's real "annoying" alright

(✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Friday, 19 October 2012 20:17 (eleven years ago) link

lol e!
I'd let him annoy me any day!

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Friday, 19 October 2012 20:18 (eleven years ago) link

hahaha otm

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Friday, 19 October 2012 20:23 (eleven years ago) link

otoh alex annoys me in a different way. i do not find him attractive

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Friday, 19 October 2012 20:24 (eleven years ago) link

More Alex for me, I'd say. Perhaps a form of narcissism to be most attracted to the dude with the most similar name? Heh.

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Friday, 19 October 2012 20:27 (eleven years ago) link

http://youtu.be/1zHGrINnzqo

"they gave me this to do this"

i liked alex in high school but it went away. he looks like a goofus to me now

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Friday, 19 October 2012 20:27 (eleven years ago) link

Haha the video is so weird. I love them for having been goofy dudes.

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Friday, 19 October 2012 20:30 (eleven years ago) link

i know, me too. they really have that over all the other bands of that ilk. they were just fuckin' dorks. i love in starshaped when they're on the bus and singing "when will we be married" all drunk and...annoying? lol.

i am deeply embarrassed but this is the only safe haven i have for posting cute boy stuff. i need to grow the hell up.

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Friday, 19 October 2012 20:33 (eleven years ago) link

You're safe here. You inspired me to jam out to this (can't embed from phone) - http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=Kk4LSrugwRY&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DKk4LSrugwRY

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Friday, 19 October 2012 20:35 (eleven years ago) link

i really want his sweater from the beetlebum video. really badly. maybe i'll knit it.

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Friday, 19 October 2012 20:40 (eleven years ago) link

dying

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Friday, 19 October 2012 20:50 (eleven years ago) link

hahahahahaha

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Friday, 19 October 2012 20:51 (eleven years ago) link

it looks like it is from HR puffnstuff (sp?). how was this a look in like 1990, baggy aside

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Friday, 19 October 2012 20:52 (eleven years ago) link

I am so glad I was too young for dating in the days that boys looked like that.

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Friday, 19 October 2012 20:54 (eleven years ago) link

grebo

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Friday, 19 October 2012 20:54 (eleven years ago) link

grebo even just as a word makes me lol

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Friday, 19 October 2012 20:56 (eleven years ago) link

i know! it's repulsive in every possible way!

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Friday, 19 October 2012 20:57 (eleven years ago) link

(lurking)

hi! I heard someone talking abt cuet boys ie blur

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 19 October 2012 20:58 (eleven years ago) link

until my last pic post you had come to the right place

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Friday, 19 October 2012 21:04 (eleven years ago) link

hi is this the awkward boy thraed

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 19 October 2012 21:05 (eleven years ago) link

its funny, when you're young and look at loads upon loads of pictures of a particular band, how some of their regular clothing items become iconic to you. its especially true with indie-ish bands, or bands who are going to be wearing the same clothes often.

the cheryl, the thin man shirt, the california 86 shirt, the nike shirt, the blue adidas striped zipup, the faded grey mickey mouse shirt. if i ever saw a comparable cheryl shirt in a thrift store i would die.

xpost lolol

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Friday, 19 October 2012 21:09 (eleven years ago) link

hahaha i love this SO much http://www.facebook.com/pages/Graham-Coxons-Cheryl-T-Shirt/178258492226743

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Friday, 19 October 2012 21:10 (eleven years ago) link

would friend

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 19 October 2012 21:12 (eleven years ago) link

a shirt belonging to one member of blur has more facebook fans than several bands i have been in. lol

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Friday, 19 October 2012 21:16 (eleven years ago) link

Hahahaha. Oh, the Cheryl shirt. I remember thinking "god Blur fans named Cheryl are SO lucky"

See also: Mark Owen in Stussy

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Friday, 19 October 2012 21:29 (eleven years ago) link

hahahaha aw no

kinder, Friday, 19 October 2012 21:30 (eleven years ago) link

haha funny you should bring that up, i am currently searching for a tshirt with giant STUSSY on the front. considering a must for fall. im going totally 90s

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Friday, 19 October 2012 21:33 (eleven years ago) link

http://www.polyvore.com/cgi/img-thing?.out=jpg&size=l&tid=18676676
genuine want

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Friday, 19 October 2012 21:35 (eleven years ago) link

I own a stussy sweater that I got on clearance 15 years ago -- it still fits and I love it and I'm never ever giving it up

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 19 October 2012 21:36 (eleven years ago) link

those earrings are awesome

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 19 October 2012 21:37 (eleven years ago) link

oh im so jealous of your sweater. i trawl the thrift stores and never find stussy. in the early 2000s this was not a problem

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Friday, 19 October 2012 21:37 (eleven years ago) link

i know right, I don't understand why they went away, their clothes were so comfy and hardwearing

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 19 October 2012 21:39 (eleven years ago) link

and their logo was badass

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 19 October 2012 21:39 (eleven years ago) link

A

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Friday, 19 October 2012 21:52 (eleven years ago) link

>:|

Could not GIS the picture of Mark that I was thinking of, boo. :(

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Friday, 19 October 2012 21:52 (eleven years ago) link

Hold up, Stussy is a retro cool brand now? Kids smdh

carl agatha, Saturday, 20 October 2012 01:28 (eleven years ago) link

tbrr the 90s nostalgia fashion trend really weirds me out bc I was 17-27 in the 90s so pretty formative years during which I was using my own money to buy my own fashion choices and a lot of those things don't feel retro to me because they still serve as a foundation for my style choices today. Like I still favor skirts and tshirts and hoodies and clever sneakers or black flats. I don't know, I'm sure some professional social commentator, proto-Andy Rooney has said this better than me.

carl agatha, Saturday, 20 October 2012 01:34 (eleven years ago) link

i think it might just be me swith the stussy thing, i havent seen anyone else wearing it tbh. also im 32 xxp

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Saturday, 20 October 2012 01:37 (eleven years ago) link

37 here and it never fell out of favor with me

have always had a thang for stussy bc it reminds me of all the cuet sk8er boys in my hometown that I used to moon over
don't get me started on vision street wear lol

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 20 October 2012 02:54 (eleven years ago) link

37? 36

lol

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 20 October 2012 02:54 (eleven years ago) link

Aaahhhh for me that's Vans and Vision Street Wear, full stop. I had a crush on that drummer for years....

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Saturday, 20 October 2012 02:55 (eleven years ago) link

hahaha oh man i am a longtime fan of vision streetwear

bid on gator rogowski's shoes many times on ebay

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Saturday, 20 October 2012 02:56 (eleven years ago) link

Unfortunately for my crushes on all the skaters I was a good Christian girl with protective parents so I was never allowed out unchaperoned/unsupervised. Definitely one thing I was not ever going to be able to do was hang out with boys in parking lots.

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Saturday, 20 October 2012 02:58 (eleven years ago) link

lol I ended up befriending 3 skater dudes why bcz they played *badminton*

no lie

I think their parents wanted them to do 'social activities' so they would show up and lol their way thru games. I was so crushed out I would sit with them while they graffiti'd the gym bleachers bcz I was so nerdy they woudln't get in trouble if they were hanging out with me u_u

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 20 October 2012 03:06 (eleven years ago) link

i was into pop punk and the beastie boys and wore huge pants so yeah i hung out with skater dudes and was in love with all of them probably

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Saturday, 20 October 2012 03:52 (eleven years ago) link

i still do hang out with skater dudes tbh

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Saturday, 20 October 2012 03:53 (eleven years ago) link

Oh hi, is the 90s crushes thread?

http://instagram.com/p/Q-HmRiFfwz/

Oh, Ewan, when did you get SO OLD??

tokyo rosemary, Saturday, 20 October 2012 03:58 (eleven years ago) link

Teenage me is so jealous of teenage you, roxy!

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Saturday, 20 October 2012 04:05 (eleven years ago) link

Ewan 4eva btw. Man's got it at any age.

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Saturday, 20 October 2012 04:07 (eleven years ago) link

ewan was #1 crush when i was 17-18 but it was mostly surrounding his trainspotting look. i have a pic somewhere of my wall in high school, its mostly a collage of his face. lol. hes still hot imo

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Saturday, 20 October 2012 04:11 (eleven years ago) link

If we're talking high school, I think I predated you all as the sour/dour velvet blazer wearing grouch who people found "hard to talk to" and "standoffish". For a while people called me Beetlejuice (because they were stupid). I say this with the understanding that I was grouchy, guarded, and not the easiest person on earth to talk to. My best friend at school was the bubbly punk princess who everyone -- and I mean everyone -- wanted to sleep with. Compared to her, I was an alien. Thinking about this is making me so nostalgic!

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Saturday, 20 October 2012 04:13 (eleven years ago) link

in high school i was called everything from billy corgan to wednesday adams

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Saturday, 20 October 2012 04:23 (eleven years ago) link

i was called chuckie
as in the doll

:(

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 20 October 2012 04:24 (eleven years ago) link

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/780989/Billy+Corgan.jpg

just1n3, Saturday, 20 October 2012 04:25 (eleven years ago) link

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpvu4z3U9E1qk5gbr.jpg

just1n3, Saturday, 20 October 2012 04:27 (eleven years ago) link

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/500/29389837/Billy+Corgan+billy525.jpg

just1n3, Saturday, 20 October 2012 04:28 (eleven years ago) link

#1 highschool crush

just1n3, Saturday, 20 October 2012 04:28 (eleven years ago) link

Wait Roxy - I actually so of see a corgan resemblance! You have similar bone structure!

three boobed space princess (ENBB), Saturday, 20 October 2012 04:31 (eleven years ago) link

hahaha jeez. it was v pronounced in high school. for a period i wore all my hair up in a toboggan and ppl thought i was bald.

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Saturday, 20 October 2012 04:32 (eleven years ago) link

wanted to be a boy really really bad

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Saturday, 20 October 2012 04:32 (eleven years ago) link

i was into pop punk and the beastie boys and wore huge pants so yeah i hung out with skater dudes and was in love with all of them probably

― (♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Friday, October 19, 2012 11:52 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This is me p much exactly. CF the pic of me in my sweet JNCOS knocking aroud the lolcollege thread

three boobed space princess (ENBB), Saturday, 20 October 2012 04:33 (eleven years ago) link

haha i love that pic and u look so much like my bff in high school in it. we would have been friends for certain

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Saturday, 20 October 2012 04:34 (eleven years ago) link

:)

and I fucking loved Stussy. lol. I had the greatest mint green and brown striped hoodie t shirt thing that I wore to death.

three boobed space princess (ENBB), Saturday, 20 October 2012 04:34 (eleven years ago) link

i never actually owned any stussy which might explain my sudden strange interest in it now

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Saturday, 20 October 2012 04:36 (eleven years ago) link

That was when I was young, maybe like 14. I remember it really clearly because it was at a store on FI and I took a ziploc back full of singles (I was busing tables for my parents) to the store and paid for it in basically all coin and singles.

three boobed space princess (ENBB), Saturday, 20 October 2012 04:40 (eleven years ago) link

lol. i had these:

http://www.polyvore.com/cgi/img-thing?.out=jpg&size=l&tid=47885779

when my friend jason came to pick me up once i fell down 14 times in a row - it was icy

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Saturday, 20 October 2012 04:43 (eleven years ago) link

hahahaha

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Saturday, 20 October 2012 04:43 (eleven years ago) link

ahhhhhhhhhhh I forgot about those! I multi-colored stripped platform converse. They were really hard to walk in ice or no ice.

three boobed space princess (ENBB), Saturday, 20 October 2012 04:44 (eleven years ago) link

striped, even

The soles were stiff iirc so you sorta clomped around

three boobed space princess (ENBB), Saturday, 20 October 2012 04:45 (eleven years ago) link

THEN AGAIN i rescued my removable ruffle-fronted white blouse from my clothing archive recently and i've been considering resurrecting it
it's pretty lol

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Saturday, 20 October 2012 04:45 (eleven years ago) link

haha i wore them sledding once! why

also the soles eventually wore down to almost normal height. the bottom was like...foamy. not really like the rest of the sole. they were weird.

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Saturday, 20 October 2012 04:46 (eleven years ago) link

i used to wear my grandfathers pants every day. i also collected articles of brown corduroy clothing hoping to one day have a full suit's worth. i found a brown corduroy tie in the costume shop of the school's theater, i was really excited

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Saturday, 20 October 2012 04:48 (eleven years ago) link

plaid pants and baby t's, that was my steez. also seems like i just kind of like festooned myself with tiny toys

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Saturday, 20 October 2012 04:48 (eleven years ago) link

if my hair wasnt in a ridiculous toboggan it was like this:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_magjjo0Stj1rrg8k9o1_500.jpg

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Saturday, 20 October 2012 04:51 (eleven years ago) link

my best friend in college came back from the cheapskate shoe store with a pair of red high heeled spice-girls sneakers. They were like, 6 inch heels, ankle strap the whole nine. She was delighted beyond words.
Being a pretty ungirly girl I was appalled, lol

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 20 October 2012 05:03 (eleven years ago) link

I had a pair of brown check pants I got in clearance at a surf store, and a pair of rust-colored hessian-kinda material wideleg pants that my mum made me. I wore both til they fell off me.
and my Aloha Mr Hand beasties tshirt, other band tshirts, and like 100,000 slightly fitted Bonds tshirts (kind of like a baby tee but thicker stretchy cotton, v hardwearing, v popular in the 90s)

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 20 October 2012 05:05 (eleven years ago) link

You guys were much cooler than I was! I was reined in until college, when I went crazy with used men's work clothes from the farm store, janitors' shirts with name patches that said "Dave" and "Dan" on them, and cut all my hair off and dyed it copper, and my mother told my extended family that I had chosen to be ugly.

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Saturday, 20 October 2012 05:20 (eleven years ago) link

It was a rough 5 years or so with that relationship.

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Saturday, 20 October 2012 05:21 (eleven years ago) link

oh man the shirts with men's name patches on them were totally a thing

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Saturday, 20 October 2012 05:29 (eleven years ago) link

In jr high I fought a constant battle to rescue my jeans with holes in them from the laundry because otherwise they'd be thrown out, and I had a Tshirt from the skate store 50 miles away that had a skull and crossed fishbones on it and complained about companies polluting the river. Would sneak all to school and change there, add a bandana wrap around my hair, got in trubble (unsurprisingly). I think I mostly gave up by high school and just followed along for the next 4 years until I could leave.

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Saturday, 20 October 2012 05:29 (eleven years ago) link

i wore lipsticks of various brown shades

jeans were holey which was illegal at school, i was terrified of turning corners and running into the principal. this fear lasted til a couple years after high school i find myself getting tense turning corners in holey jeans

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Saturday, 20 October 2012 05:32 (eleven years ago) link

Hah!! They weren't even illegal at my school, but my teachers couldn't believe my mother would approve of my dressing that way and eventually someone told her! lol small towns I hate u

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Saturday, 20 October 2012 05:33 (eleven years ago) link

I cut off all my hair in my final year of high school, suuuuuuuuuuper short crop, and dyed it black. as I wore more and more men's shirts and pants mum took to wondering out loud in public if she would have to start buying me men's underwear. iirc once I got to college she told all her friends I was a lesbian

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 20 October 2012 05:34 (eleven years ago) link

Oh moms.

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Saturday, 20 October 2012 05:34 (eleven years ago) link

lol @ moms

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Saturday, 20 October 2012 05:35 (eleven years ago) link

My family suffered through all my intense crushes on boys who never liked me, they knew in my heart of hearts I dreamed of being kissed by a greasy skater boy with long bangs.

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Saturday, 20 October 2012 05:36 (eleven years ago) link

oh and the last 2 years of hs I was always, always getting into trouble for being 'out of uniform'. I was always wearing black knee high socks and or black turtlenecks under school sweaters, or wearing my jesus sandals instead of horrible tbar sandals

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 20 October 2012 05:36 (eleven years ago) link

Actually I'm not even sure I dreamed of being kissed, I kind of got stuck on the part of that fantasy where boys liked you back and THEN what did you do?!?? Horrors. Jesus would not approve.

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Saturday, 20 October 2012 05:36 (eleven years ago) link

In 7th grade I asked out a boy I was friends with, he said he'd think about it and then avoided me forever. So I didn't ask out any more boys after that ;_;

I was crushed on a couple of times by guys I liked but too freaked out to do anything bcz OMG so I did nothing

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 20 October 2012 05:41 (eleven years ago) link

i had a very very hard crush on a dude since 8th grade, it lasted all the way through high school when we became friends and after when i found out he had a crush on me too but by then i already had a boyfriend who was terrible

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Saturday, 20 October 2012 05:42 (eleven years ago) link

Oh us.

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Saturday, 20 October 2012 05:44 (eleven years ago) link

here let me add to the stereotype in terrible fashion

my favorite crush was a guy in the year below me, we met on a school trip when I was in 10th grade. totally best buds, and then my friends and his friends all got together and figured out that we liked each other and decided to set us up. like coming to my tent one night and dragging me over to his tent in a shitty version of that Sandy/Danny thing in Grease and I was so freaked out by the pressure and audience of it all that I told everyone to get fucked and ran off. And avoided him for the rest of the trip. And then made out with a horrrrrrrrrrrrrrible guy in the back of the bus on the way home, and got caught by the teacher so everyone knew including my crush.

a few years later we met up at a party and holy fuck he had gotten even more smoking hot than he had been then, took me up to his attic and showed me all these sketches and gave me a kiss and told me that he had always been in love with me and then my friend caused a calamity by being super inappropriately drunk and terrible and I had to leave.
I totally missed the boat on him and I still kick myself about it to this day. he was a sweetheart.

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 20 October 2012 05:48 (eleven years ago) link

daaamn

just1n3, Saturday, 20 October 2012 05:54 (eleven years ago) link

I had Esprit platform sneakers. I bought them on clearance at the Willowbrook Mall.

tokyo rosemary, Saturday, 20 October 2012 12:16 (eleven years ago) link

velvet blazer wearing grouch who people found "hard to talk to" and "standoffish": check (omg velvet jackets)
wanted to be a boy really really bad: check
stuck on the part of that fantasy where boys liked you back and THEN what did you do?!??: haha also check

wanted to be a boy really bad but real boys wdn't talk to me; went within a year or two from being the tomboy whose friends were all boys bcz they were the people I had interests in common with, to being the weirdo that all the boys roll their eyes at and leave the room after about 3 words if she starts talking, bcz ugh no we don't have anything in common with her, cooties etc

puberty, huh?

watched a recent film with former teenage crush Jonny Lee Miller in and spent the whole thing going "that totally isn't JLM, he doesn't even look like JLM, that is not the back-of-neck I spent most of Hackers harbouring a sudden irrational desire to lick aged 15" etc

(damn, VG)

still small voice of clam (a passing spacecadet), Saturday, 20 October 2012 12:18 (eleven years ago) link

(reposting bcz i brainfarted & put this on the wrong thread)

school trips seemed to be my steez tho, that's how I met my bf in my final year of hs. also a year younger than me. also similarly complexioned to the other crush, and was kind of good friends with him except I didn't find that out til later. lol. so we got all bff-y and I crushed super hard, and THEN, I found out when we got back from the trip that he was kind of seeing a friend of mine. I had no idea about that at all until we all got drunk at a party, and ended up sitting in her driveway, her, him, and me basically roundtabling who he should go out with. O_o

we were together for maybe 6 months but then I got accepted to uni and was moving out of home and 2 hours away, and he wanted to call it quits so I could sow my wild oats. which never got sown except when I was drunk so it was kind of a pointless exercise.

he was cool tho. probly the first guy i ever felt like i loved? he told me in a teary drunk phone conversation the night before I moved to the us permanently that I was the only girl he had ever loved. which is maybe cliche to say out loud but felt v true at the time. we stayed friends, and still keep in touch in a very vague happy birthday once a year way. oddly enough he ended up marrying a girl with the same name as me

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 20 October 2012 16:42 (eleven years ago) link

I went to an all-girls' HS so didn't have must interaction with guys in during the school year. There were boys that we sort of hung out with on Fire Island who were total assholes to me. On of them, Austin, used to shout "HUGE ERECTION!" whenever I was around because this was somehow mocking me in an "as if i'd ever get hard because of her her" sort of way. Somehow I wound up with a "boyfriend" named Carlos out there in the Spring of my freshman year. I let him go up my shirt and he dumped me the next week.

I lost a bunch of weight and gained a bunch of confidence my junior year and when I went back out to the beach that spring people sort of lost their minds. I didn't go a day without hearing multiple comments about how great I looked or how I should model. People who had either ignored me or outright made fun of me wanted to be my friend all of a sudden. While it was all very nice to hear it was yet another thing that reinforced the whole being thin being thin = being a better person in every way. Fucked up. I briefly dated a guy named kevin who had sandy hair and amazing dimples. He sang me a NIN song and then broke up with me when I wouldn't let him finger me.

Later that summer I went away to a creative writing workshop program for HS students at a college in The Berkshires. While I was unpacking my stuff I looked out my window and saw a boy with floppy dark hair, glasses, a Jesus Lizard tee shirt, army shorts and docs waling across the parking lot. His name was Chris and a couple nights later we held hands on bus during a field trip and I thought my heart was going to beat its way out of my chest. The next morning he knocked on my door and told me he wanted to be with me. We ended up dating for a year and a half and he was my first everything. We split briefly during our first weeks of college and I still remember the last lines of an email he sent me when we got back together. It said:

May the simplicity and complacency of our past return and flourish under the lights of a new era. And shit.

three boobed space princess (ENBB), Saturday, 20 October 2012 18:23 (eleven years ago) link

classic post

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Saturday, 20 October 2012 18:39 (eleven years ago) link

^^^^

jesus lizard shirt + floppy hair guy otm

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 20 October 2012 19:09 (eleven years ago) link

http://www.ultimatesistersguide.org/images/misc/80ies_204.jpg

my late teens were all about trying to look like this

sarahell, Saturday, 20 October 2012 19:30 (eleven years ago) link

was deeply ambivalent about the hat-wearing tho' - lots of unfortunate hats at that time. i never went there personally.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9xp6nIH1D1rplwk3o1_1280.jpg

sarahell, Saturday, 20 October 2012 19:36 (eleven years ago) link

sarahell otm

carl agatha, Saturday, 20 October 2012 20:09 (eleven years ago) link

oh god I had a terrible hat fetish

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 20 October 2012 21:24 (eleven years ago) link

rewatching freaks and geeks

god

that first episode first glimpse of franco under the bleachers talking about being kicked out of church for wearing a molly hatchet shirt should legitimately be illegal

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Saturday, 20 October 2012 23:03 (eleven years ago) link

like i think if i drove a car right now i would wreck it

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Saturday, 20 October 2012 23:03 (eleven years ago) link

lol <3 show is so good and, yeah, he's too much!

three boobed space princess (ENBB), Saturday, 20 October 2012 23:04 (eleven years ago) link

i am impaired

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Saturday, 20 October 2012 23:08 (eleven years ago) link

i think im incapable of developing new celeb crushes so i apologize for how boring it is that i talk about albarn and franco, but ill probably keep doing it til ilx world fap 2020

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Saturday, 20 October 2012 23:09 (eleven years ago) link

as if that event denotes the end of the world

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Saturday, 20 October 2012 23:11 (eleven years ago) link

http://i2.listal.com/image/2997661/400pxfull.jpg

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 October 2012 00:14 (eleven years ago) link

I have never seen that show. Should i watch y or n?

sarahell, Sunday, 21 October 2012 02:19 (eleven years ago) link

YES.

three boobed space princess (ENBB), Sunday, 21 October 2012 02:20 (eleven years ago) link

yyy it is one of the best things ever.

estela, Sunday, 21 October 2012 02:21 (eleven years ago) link

My bff said mean things about franco last night and i was almost gonna be upset w her but then i remembered all her other awesome qualities

sarahell, Sunday, 21 October 2012 02:23 (eleven years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8G0m0D1y3w

three boobed space princess (ENBB), Sunday, 21 October 2012 02:24 (eleven years ago) link

<3

estela, Sunday, 21 October 2012 03:10 (eleven years ago) link

i say mean things about franco all the time tbh, imo he is kind of insufferable!! haha. but i love him too.

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 October 2012 04:58 (eleven years ago) link

how is the female lead in freaks and geeks not enjoying the same career as james franco, seth rogen, et al? i think this is a huge injustice. her character is the most relate-able ever for me w/r/t high school gals in transition, moreseo than claire in my so-called life, or whatever other touchstones.

nothing has ever transported me to high school as much as that moment early on in freaks and geeks when daniel's GF dumps her purse out on the floor and daniel is like "whats wrong with you, are you on your period?" but doesnt really care that the purse has been dumped out, or doesnt really act appropriately, perhaps because he is more concerned about being cool and standoffish. then he kind of half-heartedly helps her pick up the last of her stuff. "don't you have to go to class too?" "i'll survive." and she's still in love with him, cause.

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 October 2012 05:02 (eleven years ago) link

my <3 was pounding during that. also all the scenes showing lindsay outgrowing her old bff - the girl dancing to "come sail away" while she stands there in her army jacket, etc. i feel that. that actually might have been covered better in mty co-called life though and in less of a caricatured way, though. both shows are great. freaks and geeks, and particularly lindsay/her relationship to the guys in her life, speak to some deep part of me though, i don't know.

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 October 2012 05:06 (eleven years ago) link

the scene where she finds daniel looking through her pics and trophies, omg

"you win a lot, dont you?" - so in character, like that is a sentence that could only be uttered by someone who has never won anything ever. scene is so crammed with teenage tension. also i wish i could adopt sam, he is the ideal dream son imo

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 October 2012 05:09 (eleven years ago) link

yeah, sam brings out some intense maternal feelings in me iirc.

horseshoe, Sunday, 21 October 2012 13:00 (eleven years ago) link

i don't know what happened to linda cardellini

horseshoe, Sunday, 21 October 2012 13:00 (eleven years ago) link

She was on ER for a while.

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Sunday, 21 October 2012 13:06 (eleven years ago) link

Wasn't she blonde on that? It was NAGL.

three boobed space princess (ENBB), Sunday, 21 October 2012 14:22 (eleven years ago) link

i remember listening to a f&g dvd commentary where cardellini was all uncomfortable watching it because to believably inhabit lindsey the show creators had asked her to wear minimal/no makeup and she found it hard to look at herself, and i was like are you crazy you're the prettiest.

horseshoe, Sunday, 21 October 2012 14:24 (eleven years ago) link

that's ridiculous, she is the prettiest girl

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 October 2012 14:45 (eleven years ago) link

god yeah. she was gorgeous.

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 21 October 2012 15:05 (eleven years ago) link

That's not an inoculation against wanting to hide behind makeup though! Makeup is complicated, IMO.

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Sunday, 21 October 2012 15:07 (eleven years ago) link

yes you are right! i realize my post kind of reads like some clueless dude saying "women are so much prettier without makeup," which wasn't quite what i meant. it just made me a little sad, when i was listening to that commentary.

horseshoe, Sunday, 21 October 2012 15:09 (eleven years ago) link

it's a little bit different when there's, what, 15 years remove between the show itself & the commentary tho

esp when she's looking at herself as a young girl as an adult woman

it would be kind of a bummer to hear that from her, regardless of how u feel about makep.

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 21 October 2012 15:14 (eleven years ago) link

i think the commentary was recorded not long after the show, tbf. the dvds came out shortly afterward iirc.

horseshoe, Sunday, 21 October 2012 15:19 (eleven years ago) link

really? then nm :)

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 21 October 2012 15:30 (eleven years ago) link

yeah obv makeup is not a tool intended to remedy ugliness, or w/e. i wear makeup and i don't think i'm ugly. feeling like you look ugly strictly because you're sans makeup is hard to wrap my mind around. hollywood people are notably weirder about this stuff than normal people tho

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 October 2012 15:38 (eleven years ago) link

that's how it seemed to me, like an in-the-hollywood-bell-jar distorting her image of herself type thing. she was a young woman at the time.

horseshoe, Sunday, 21 October 2012 15:43 (eleven years ago) link

I admire F&G but mostly find it impenetrable. Probably not surprisingly.

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Sunday, 21 October 2012 15:55 (eleven years ago) link

Bill Haverchuck is my favorite. Also not quite enough girls on the show to have a character I identified with personally (although the show was p accurate representation of my hs experience from a few perspectives)

I understand what everyone's saying about makeup, and I wear it/have no prob with it whatsoever. I just felt like it was weird to say that she was pretty and therefore should be confident about her face. Sad fact is I think everyone I know quietly hates something about her own face, pretty or not, and that makes me sad. Not excluding myself here.

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Sunday, 21 October 2012 16:09 (eleven years ago) link

Wait before you start thinking that I am an asshole -- I don't think that attractiveness and prettiness are the same thing.

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Sunday, 21 October 2012 16:15 (eleven years ago) link

Also in a really terrible/sad mood so pls take this awful conversation with a grain of salt.

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Sunday, 21 October 2012 16:17 (eleven years ago) link

LL, you are right, I think. And I hope the sadness passes quickly.

ljubljana, Sunday, 21 October 2012 18:31 (eleven years ago) link

It's a constant fite for me to try to not care about being "pretty" btw. I am uninterested in prettiness in other people, I prefer beauty, character, individuality, what have you. But in myself I judge my femininity/"prettiness" all the time.

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Sunday, 21 October 2012 18:34 (eleven years ago) link

Sort of constantly amazed by married couples in which the men find the women "beautiful" even though they see them sick, hungover, sweaty, un-pretty all the time because omg lyfe, and I just can't...believe it? Even though it's right in front of me all the time obvs! Serious personal issue alert, clearly. AND ALSO somehow in my mind men are exempt from the reverse of this pressure.

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Sunday, 21 October 2012 18:38 (eleven years ago) link

Or, I should say, long term real life couples, not just marrieds, but since there are lots of ppl in this thread who are specif married it was easy short-hand.

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Sunday, 21 October 2012 18:39 (eleven years ago) link

xp i always chalk it up to the stereotypical thought that men are like dogs, and like the dog that loves you because you feed it, men find their ltr lady beautiful because she is the provider of sexytimes - at least that's how i felt in my last ltr

sarahell, Sunday, 21 October 2012 18:46 (eleven years ago) link

That seems...unflattering to both parties?

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Sunday, 21 October 2012 18:50 (eleven years ago) link

Or maybe ungenerous is a better word. Still, that's not an answer I can rest with.

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Sunday, 21 October 2012 18:50 (eleven years ago) link

xp - i did not say i thought it was a healthy perception!

sarahell, Sunday, 21 October 2012 18:57 (eleven years ago) link

like it's definitely indicative of "personal issues"

sarahell, Sunday, 21 October 2012 18:58 (eleven years ago) link

Heh.

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Sunday, 21 October 2012 18:59 (eleven years ago) link

still, i think "sexytimes" is a glib shorthand, really - like shooting-the-shit-at-a-bar-in-mixed-company shorthand - and it stands for positive feelings from physical intimacy.

sarahell, Sunday, 21 October 2012 19:02 (eleven years ago) link

I believe that guys find ladies they normally find sexy/beautiful the same when sick, pregnant, in pajamas, whatever - as long and they aren't weird and extremely extremely superficial (ie equating beauty with amount of makeup or w/e). If I'm really attracted to someone it isn't diminished by their looking wan or jaundiced it whatever due to sickness, or wearing stupid clothes, etc. Tbf: though I believe that, it is hard to think about myself, and my relationship and I get really self conscious STILL about Andy seeing me looking rough.

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 October 2012 21:11 (eleven years ago) link

I had poison ivy all over my face this summer and literally looked identical to cotton from king of the hill. I thought, how long would Andy endure this?!

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 October 2012 21:12 (eleven years ago) link

Sort of constantly amazed by married couples in which the men find the women "beautiful" even though they see them sick, hungover, sweaty, un-pretty all the time because omg lyfe, and I just can't...believe it?

Many years ago, when I was having major external-beauty issues, my mom tried to explain someting to me about how she and my father "thought about" one another. At the time, they were married for ~30 years (and are now married 40+ years). Mom said to me, "you cease thinking about someone you are so deeply intwined with as a physical being. When I think of your father, I think about a million other things before I think six-one, dark hair, brown eyes, etc.). It just doesn't cross my mind what his *physical* person is."

I have found this to be so true, even though spouse and I find each other physically attactive, that physical aspect is not what either of us identifies as *us*.

Not sure I have made sense there, but I totally get relationships transcending the physical being.

quincie, Sunday, 21 October 2012 22:08 (eleven years ago) link

i don't think I've ever had one that did.

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Sunday, 21 October 2012 22:14 (eleven years ago) link

Not speaking for my boyfriends, but just for myself, I've never been that close to anyone that I stopped thinking of them as their physical self in a romantic relship. Friendships, easily, yes.

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Sunday, 21 October 2012 22:16 (eleven years ago) link

Yeah I mean that's what "love" is IMO? Quincie's mom super otm.

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Sunday, 21 October 2012 22:17 (eleven years ago) link

Weird.

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Sunday, 21 October 2012 22:20 (eleven years ago) link

Weirder would be the opposite!

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 October 2012 22:31 (eleven years ago) link

Eh maybe I'm also thinking too much (without meaning to carry the baggage but you know how far that goes) of when exes who have let me know when they didn't find me attractive in some way, like it was my job to maintain.

xp I was kidding!

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Sunday, 21 October 2012 22:32 (eleven years ago) link

girl, ive been there. those ppl were actually evil tho

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 October 2012 22:33 (eleven years ago) link

Omg yes. Evil.

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Sunday, 21 October 2012 22:34 (eleven years ago) link

had an ex BF who LOUDLY talked to a friend of mine in the other room about how he had to grow to find me attractive, in the style of "dont give up buddy, you can date anyone and eventually grow to find their appearance acceptable" *pats*

me in the other room - >:O

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 October 2012 22:36 (eleven years ago) link

Someone told me to my face that I reminded him of a monkey.

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Sunday, 21 October 2012 22:37 (eleven years ago) link

Pardon the fuck out of me for being short and wiry, asshole!

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Sunday, 21 October 2012 22:38 (eleven years ago) link

Whaaaaa....?! xp

ljubljana, Sunday, 21 October 2012 22:38 (eleven years ago) link

That wasn't even the worst, but it's the funniest.

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Sunday, 21 October 2012 22:39 (eleven years ago) link

Oh no fucking way is there an obligation to "maintain" other than maintaining the fundamentals of myself (aka the stuff one falls in love with); 20 pounds does not change the fundamentals of myself. I have tested this theory in real life, and it has held rue.

Also, I shit in my now-husband's pants ~2 weeks after we got engaged. SHIT IN HIS PANTS. After which there was an ambulance and a hospital stay wherein not only did I look like shit, he had to CHANGE MY EXPLOVE-DIARHHEA-FILLED BEDPANS. And kissed the lips from which I recently spewed much vomit. Not a pretty time, the norovirus weekend. So thank god one can transcend the physical, because otherwise he would be haunted by shit and vomit every time he looked at me!

quincie, Sunday, 21 October 2012 22:41 (eleven years ago) link

if my story was inscrutable its cause i meant my bf was telling the friend how he, the BF, had been forced to develop an attraction to me - he wasnt telling the friend he had to develop one. lol. the friend was having trouble finding a GF at the time.

xp wow quincie. that's love

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 October 2012 22:42 (eleven years ago) link

Once I tried to make light of body image stuff during sexytimes by telling my partner in a jokey kind of way that I was self-conscious about my stomach. He said 'yeah, I would think so'.

ljubljana, Sunday, 21 October 2012 22:43 (eleven years ago) link

People are so terrible to each other sometimes! Quincie your story warms the bowels of my soul.

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Sunday, 21 October 2012 22:45 (eleven years ago) link

LJUB OMG

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Sunday, 21 October 2012 22:45 (eleven years ago) link

Jesus christ based on this thread you marry the one who DOESN'T talk shit about some aspect of your appearance because frankly all the rest do.

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Sunday, 21 October 2012 22:46 (eleven years ago) link

LJUB OMG

^^^!!

kinder, Sunday, 21 October 2012 22:52 (eleven years ago) link

Xp No they don't but we fixate on and remember the bad ones! That's what's so shitty about it.

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Sunday, 21 October 2012 22:53 (eleven years ago) link

I seriously am deeply pissed that any woman in a relationship with a supposedly adult man should hear anything negative about her appearance. I mean I'm kind of floored that right hear I have heard from extremely attractive women that their physical looks have been criticized. I guess I thought that it didn't really happen??? I am dumb. And pissed.

quincie, Sunday, 21 October 2012 22:54 (eleven years ago) link

um by hear I mean here, obv. I like to think that this is only an issue with people who audition for reality shows, but goddamn to hear it about women I know burns me the fuck up.

quincie, Sunday, 21 October 2012 22:57 (eleven years ago) link

Weakling's desperate power grab in most cases, I'd imagine. It's just a shame they're so memorable/effective.

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Sunday, 21 October 2012 22:59 (eleven years ago) link

power grab is what i think too.

estela, Sunday, 21 October 2012 23:00 (eleven years ago) link

None of mine are funny, they're just mundanely, tediously cruel and evil. Suggestions for what you could/should do to yourself to be more enticing, remarks about how some woman who is the opposite of you is actually their type, I won't even bother to share the kinds of things the horrible one said and did, but even the nice/normal/average guys who were not assholes over the whole relationship still had things to say.

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Sunday, 21 October 2012 23:02 (eleven years ago) link

I guess it is probably a good thing that I am so floored by these negative experiences? Because I know so many partners (old, young, hetero, homo, etc.) wherein physical appearance is never something that I neither a) notice or b) hear about from either partners nor others? I hpe to god that this is the norm, and these assholes are the exceptions???

quincie, Sunday, 21 October 2012 23:05 (eleven years ago) link

The collateral damage of the comments makes me way angrier than the comments themselves.

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Sunday, 21 October 2012 23:05 (eleven years ago) link

xpost um pls undo the double negative, too worked up to type I think

quincie, Sunday, 21 October 2012 23:06 (eleven years ago) link

It's poisonous. A couple of years ago I spent some time a happy couple who were totally into each other and I noticed that she didn't shave her legs and was like, how can she even stand to present that to her mate?? He must think she doesn't even care what she looks like! Shocking.

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Sunday, 21 October 2012 23:07 (eleven years ago) link

To be fair, the stomach incident is the only really terrible appearance-related incident with a bf that I remember. Here's a counterweight: I went to a summer school when I was about 20. I was very paranoid about my appearance and didn't have any clue how to dress or do my hair or makeup. I'd recently lost a lot of weight and wasn't sure how the hell to perceive myself. Right at the end of the course, a really cool and attractive guy who hadn't spoken to me much turned to me and said 'By the way, you're the most beautiful girl in the summer school. I know you don't bother that much with doing your hair and stuff, but that's what I think. I just thought I'd let you know'. Then went back to his drink. I still think about that when I feel unattractive. I try to think: I may not be perfect but I can still be attractive despite that. Some people won't find me attractive, and that doesn't matter, and for others I'm just their thing.

ljubljana, Sunday, 21 October 2012 23:08 (eleven years ago) link

^^^OTM

To be fair, there are totally chicks who give their partners (whether guy or girl) a hard time for failing to live up to their "maintenance" expectations.

quincie, Sunday, 21 October 2012 23:15 (eleven years ago) link

Yeah, def. The thing is though that the exchange rate between currencies doesn't work out. It's not that men don't have body ish or w/e or don't like being handsome and told it and appreciated, it's that the cut to a woman is at her basic worth.

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Sunday, 21 October 2012 23:20 (eleven years ago) link

That's a good point, had not considered it that way. I had been thinging shallow chick=shallow dude, but I can see that there is difference in fundamental impact.

quincie, Sunday, 21 October 2012 23:22 (eleven years ago) link

But I'm not rly focused on that, I'm just going to ponder ways to recalibrate my thinking to a much more awesome standard based on the healthier contributions to this conversation.

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Sunday, 21 October 2012 23:24 (eleven years ago) link

I have heard quite a few husbands call their wives fat when they were trying on clothes. Women who are size 4 or 6.

I think at least one of these instances was a about a wife who had recently had a baby.

tokyo rosemary, Sunday, 21 October 2012 23:26 (eleven years ago) link

The main bf who made me feel bad about my appearance thought he was manipulating me to change it, and thought I was not on his intellectual level and therefore wouldn't see what he was attempting to do.

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 October 2012 23:26 (eleven years ago) link

oh the comment about basic worth is so depressingly otm

(♥___♥) (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 October 2012 23:27 (eleven years ago) link

I just. . . I am really floored. I mean I know there are men and women out there who undermine their partner's appearance, but I really haven't run into very many folks who IRL do that??? It would be a very glaring exception in my world. Thank fucking god.

quincie, Sunday, 21 October 2012 23:29 (eleven years ago) link

Even compliments about your appearance, even from people who mean them in the nicest way, aren't that simple anymore because they reinforce that that is an important thing. I guess that's what dysfunction and evil do, they corrupt beautiful things into hateful ones because there's a crack in the world.

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Sunday, 21 October 2012 23:35 (eleven years ago) link

you could not be more otm about that

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Sunday, 21 October 2012 23:35 (eleven years ago) link

not hateful so much as loaded

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Sunday, 21 October 2012 23:37 (eleven years ago) link

also this is the ugly side of "no negative self talk" -- it doesn't go away, it just becomes internalized and then comes out in unsavory/funky ways
like sbd emotion farts

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Sunday, 21 October 2012 23:47 (eleven years ago) link

I can add to quincie's story with a similar one of my own -- a long terrible night of stomach virus, alternately throwing up or diarrhea for just, hours on end. I'm practically a wet noodle by noon the next day, and it's slowed down somewhat but still persisting. Mr Veg was working from home so he could keep an eye on me and keep me hydrated etc. So I bolt to the bathroom for another attempt and as I start vomiting I suddenly feel the other end just completely give out. And I leapt up onto the toilet but I was too late and oh it was just horrible. Clay had come to check on me bc he heard the noise and he cracked the door open and I just looked up at him and started bawling.

He didn't say a word, just helped me get cleaned up and helped me back into bed and then set to cleaning up the bathroom.

The next day I said jokingly something about going from both ends, and he grinned and said 'All I wanted to do was laugh but you were so sad I figured I'd save it for later'. And he seriously didn't look askance at me for being in that awful, foul state.

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 22 October 2012 02:36 (eleven years ago) link

I think for myself, Mr Veg and I spent a long time building our relationship from afar, so that did take the physical out of the equation for a time. By the time we met in person, all of our interactions kind of did all of the attracting for us. I would never on paper have thought that I'd marry that guy, and maybe I was superficial enough when I first met him in college that had I seen a photo I maybe would have been weirded out. But all of the times when he was there for me when no-one else was, the fun we had on long boring road trips, all of the conversations we had and things we learned from each other, the dumb jokes and silly face, that was who I fell in love with and married.

I mean, you have to *want* to kiss them, and *want* to have sexytimes - there's no denying that the physical isn't important. But as you start coloring inside the outline of them with what you learn about them as you get to know them, the theory is they become more than the sum of who they are physically *because* of your relationship to them, what you gain from them, what they gain from you etc.

that comment upthread about how you think about 10,000 other things other than the physical description is SO true.

but it always sounds so nebulous when I write it down that I can completely understand how it seems like an alien concept.

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 22 October 2012 02:48 (eleven years ago) link

that's v reassuring!

i totally hear where you all are coming from about the negative stuff. comments people have made about my appearance have stuck with me for years and years. i've always had sort of a complex about it. there are so many better ways to spend my time than worrying about this and yet..!

seriously, THIS GUY (daria-g), Monday, 22 October 2012 02:59 (eleven years ago) link

yeah it sucks that the ppl you don't end up staying with are the ones who fuck you up. and it's nice in theory to say 'hey screw them they don't matter' but ugh it's all there ready to be cross referenced with any everyday experience, it's really hard!

but I guess maybe it helps to know that there are ppl out there who aren't dickheads about your looks and who can make you feel good/confident without saying anything directly about yr physical attractiveness or perceived lack thereof. etc

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 22 October 2012 03:04 (eleven years ago) link

The critical comments just become part of the woodwork, even ones that weren't harshly meant (and those of course really wound and are remembered). I suspect if other experiences are like mine that you just learn from experience that being pretty & palatable matters and is one thing you have to do to earn and keep love? Or, "love," I guess, if you don't realize that that isn't it.

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Monday, 22 October 2012 03:07 (eleven years ago) link

there are ppl out there who aren't dickheads about your looks and who can make you feel good/confident without saying anything directly about yr physical attractiveness or perceived lack thereof. etc

this bears repeating

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Monday, 22 October 2012 03:10 (eleven years ago) link

Indeed.

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Monday, 22 October 2012 03:14 (eleven years ago) link

two weeks pass...

Yo, I put this in the what's happening thread but maybe it kinda goes here: I hung out yest with one "radical lesbian separatist" rocker and my friend who is a sweet but straight-shooting photographer/artist/activist, and I just totally got an infusion of who gives a fuck. It feels pretty good! A glimpse of an alternate reality where a whole bunch of people just don't care about shit that makes me stress when *I* think about it. And an alternate future, maybe, for me and whoever ends up being with me in it, friends and self-professed misfits and whatnot. Good, good feelings.

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Monday, 5 November 2012 18:18 (eleven years ago) link

Sat night I hung out with friends and we discussed the significance of Young Guns and whether or not it influenced the nu-metal phenomenon

sarahell, Monday, 5 November 2012 18:33 (eleven years ago) link

Laurelita that sounds like what the doctor ordered :)

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Monday, 5 November 2012 19:44 (eleven years ago) link

It waaaaas. With that plus doing relief stuff, I am all recharged and sensible (for a little while). :)

purveyor of generations (in orbit), Monday, 5 November 2012 19:54 (eleven years ago) link

For Zelda-playing daughter, dad gives Link a sex change:
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/11/i-am-no-man-for-zelda-playing-daughter-dad-gives-link-a-sex-change/

a panda, Malmö (a passing spacecadet), Thursday, 8 November 2012 22:31 (eleven years ago) link

killer

flag this post and die (roxymuzak), Friday, 9 November 2012 00:30 (eleven years ago) link

three weeks pass...

lol pantyliners and helicopters

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_me9swskNBj1rlbyzno1_500.jpg

passion it person (La Lechera), Friday, 30 November 2012 18:21 (eleven years ago) link

Fresh panties all the time!

Although props for actually using the word "discharge" in their ad copy.

carl agatha, Friday, 30 November 2012 18:36 (eleven years ago) link

Oh god now instead of "House music all night long" I've got "Fresh panties all the time" going through my head and 1) fresh panties! and 2) it doesn't really scan. This is going to be the end of me.

carl agatha, Friday, 30 November 2012 18:37 (eleven years ago) link

i thought the exact same thing! also tapering-off days.

passion it person (La Lechera), Friday, 30 November 2012 18:37 (eleven years ago) link

Ad copy for menstrual product that refers to ACTUAL MENSTRUATION! We've come a long way...backwards.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Friday, 30 November 2012 18:48 (eleven years ago) link

THE FRESH COMFORTABLE CHOICE FOR TRAVELLING IN TAXIS

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 1 December 2012 00:55 (eleven years ago) link

i went to nordstrom rack today and bought a bra way bigger than i ever thought i was and i feel like a new, much more comfortable person. i haven't adjusted anything in hours!

Online Webinar Event for Dads (harbl), Monday, 10 December 2012 00:58 (eleven years ago) link

^^^ best feeling imo

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 10 December 2012 02:52 (eleven years ago) link

I meant to post in here last night but I forgot:

completely apropos of nothing I would like it to be known that the actor Eddie Cahill who plays Jim Craig in 'Miracle' is p much my teenbeat dude ideal.
http://a.espncdn.com/media/pg3/2004/0204/photo/jim_craig_vi.jpg

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 10 December 2012 02:57 (eleven years ago) link

not that irl jim craigh was terrible either (and kinda goodlooking old dude even now)

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/si/2009/writers/the_bonus/05/26/globe/craig.jpg

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 10 December 2012 03:00 (eleven years ago) link

Lol Nordstrom rack

kinder, Monday, 10 December 2012 08:02 (eleven years ago) link

Just got a spam offer for this:

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passion it person (La Lechera), Tuesday, 11 December 2012 16:34 (eleven years ago) link

And you won't have to sacrifice your femininity in the process
And you won't have to sacrifice your femininity in the process
And you won't have to sacrifice your femininity in the process
And you won't have to sacrifice your femininity in the process
And you won't have to sacrifice your femininity in the process

passion it person (La Lechera), Tuesday, 11 December 2012 16:35 (eleven years ago) link

flood emotionally

lol, like a car with a manual choke

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 11 December 2012 17:34 (eleven years ago) link

empowering impactful communication can be yours for $119

passion it person (La Lechera), Tuesday, 11 December 2012 17:35 (eleven years ago) link

that is a pad

passion it person (La Lechera), Wednesday, 19 December 2012 19:23 (eleven years ago) link

I'd bleed on that guy.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 19 December 2012 19:24 (eleven years ago) link

it took me a minute to figure out what I was looking at and then I wanted to unknow immediately

no thank you

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 19 December 2012 19:52 (eleven years ago) link

Huh. I just learned that psychiatrists still diagnose patients with "hysterical personality."

carl agatha, Wednesday, 19 December 2012 19:57 (eleven years ago) link

really?

flag this post and die (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 19 December 2012 20:09 (eleven years ago) link

i have no problem with that pad really

in dudes news, i have developed an unexplainable crush on bj novak

flag this post and die (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 19 December 2012 20:10 (eleven years ago) link

you developed a crush because he is v v pretty

passion it person (La Lechera), Wednesday, 19 December 2012 20:12 (eleven years ago) link

i think he is weird looking tbh and i think being slightly put off by his general head shape somehow intensified the burgeoning attraction, how do these things work

flag this post and die (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 19 December 2012 20:17 (eleven years ago) link

i guess i think he's v cute!
i generally like weird looking people

passion it person (La Lechera), Wednesday, 19 December 2012 20:18 (eleven years ago) link

i also think he is very cute but roxy's post made me laugh

horseshoe, Wednesday, 19 December 2012 20:20 (eleven years ago) link

i find myself often attracted to people with one weird feature or something off about them, i guess like a weirdly shaped head in this case. its usually to do with teeth or noses though.

i hate it when pepole who are otherwise beautiful have straight perfect teeth, its a total turnoff, but i like it when perfect looking people have terrible teeth. also i like it when weird looking people have perfect, straight teeth

flag this post and die (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 19 December 2012 20:21 (eleven years ago) link

he has a lot of chin, or something? he looks like aaron rodgers.

horseshoe, Wednesday, 19 December 2012 20:22 (eleven years ago) link

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

flag this post and die (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 19 December 2012 20:23 (eleven years ago) link

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

flag this post and die (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 19 December 2012 20:23 (eleven years ago) link

OOOOOOOOOO i HATE aaron rodgers lol

flag this post and die (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 19 December 2012 20:23 (eleven years ago) link

oh no i am so sorry!

horseshoe, Wednesday, 19 December 2012 20:24 (eleven years ago) link

hee hee hee

he does so too roxy

lolololol

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 19 December 2012 20:24 (eleven years ago) link

did i ruin your burgeoning attraction?

horseshoe, Wednesday, 19 December 2012 20:24 (eleven years ago) link

omg what is wrong with my brain

flag this post and die (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 19 December 2012 20:24 (eleven years ago) link

don't listen to her - you made it better, horseshoe

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 19 December 2012 20:24 (eleven years ago) link

before i got the the last post i thought you strongly objected to my characterization of his chin, which was lol

horseshoe, Wednesday, 19 December 2012 20:25 (eleven years ago) link

i think the attraction has peaked or plateaued

i am watching the office episode where they play basketball, i dont even like the show that much

xpost hahaha your characterization of his chin was otm

flag this post and die (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 19 December 2012 20:26 (eleven years ago) link

i think he looks like my Mr
that's why i like him (bj novak)
big droopy sad eyes <3
aaron rodgers is probably boring, i think he's a football player?

passion it person (La Lechera), Wednesday, 19 December 2012 20:26 (eleven years ago) link

his eyes also point downward and are huge, though his head is generally small, though his forehead and chin are comparatively large

flag this post and die (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 19 December 2012 20:26 (eleven years ago) link

yeah he's totally weird looking

but also sort of cute

go to party leather (ENBB), Wednesday, 19 December 2012 20:27 (eleven years ago) link

xpost At least this one psychiatrist whose treatment records I am reviewing uses that diagnoses. Some light googling suggests that the diagnosis has fallen by the wayside in favor of "histrionic personality disorder." Looks like the same symptoms, except not caused by a poor childless woman's wandering uterus.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 19 December 2012 20:27 (eleven years ago) link

haha i mostly have hate for aaron rodgers as a person/packer, his looks mean nothing to me either way

xpost well thats a relief

flag this post and die (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 19 December 2012 20:28 (eleven years ago) link

i hope bj novak does not google himself and find this harsh description of his head

flag this post and die (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 19 December 2012 20:28 (eleven years ago) link

you should feel bad because you have insulted my mr ;)

passion it person (La Lechera), Wednesday, 19 December 2012 20:29 (eleven years ago) link

awwwww

poor BJ

go to party leather (ENBB), Wednesday, 19 December 2012 20:29 (eleven years ago) link

but i think his weird head is cute/hot! haw

xp

flag this post and die (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 19 December 2012 20:29 (eleven years ago) link

aaron rodgers is my favrit 4 ever. v handsome imo

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 19 December 2012 20:37 (eleven years ago) link

the best thing i can say about him is that at least he is not clay matthews

god i REALLY hate clay matthews, he makes me want to vomit

flag this post and die (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 19 December 2012 20:42 (eleven years ago) link

there is a totally gratuitous scene in this episode, just novak in the bathroom taking his shirt off

flag this post and die (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 19 December 2012 20:52 (eleven years ago) link

lol why is he dressed like a magician/stripper

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 20 December 2012 00:20 (eleven years ago) link

so that he can remove his clothing and do magical things probably

flag this post and die (roxymuzak), Thursday, 20 December 2012 00:30 (eleven years ago) link

I'm just going to pretend it's aaron rodgers and be okay with it

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 20 December 2012 00:32 (eleven years ago) link

rage boner

flag this post and die (roxymuzak), Thursday, 20 December 2012 00:33 (eleven years ago) link

*female equivalent

flag this post and die (roxymuzak), Thursday, 20 December 2012 00:35 (eleven years ago) link

sad2say i know why bj novak is dressed like that, it's from when his character on the office became a pretentious hipster douchebag:

http://i50.tinypic.com/wiaj3s.jpg

a robotic squirrel named RoboSquirrel (reddening), Thursday, 20 December 2012 00:51 (eleven years ago) link

i like when he becomes a rich asshole and starts wearing all black and grows a half-assed beard

flag this post and die (roxymuzak), Thursday, 20 December 2012 01:55 (eleven years ago) link

He looks like a combination of cute boys but I can't really think of which ones right now.

I bought a yarn project bag made from the Christmas version fabric of that pad.

You can get fireman and cowboy fabric, too!!

tokyo rosemary, Thursday, 20 December 2012 02:56 (eleven years ago) link

i love the "great outdoors" fabric

flag this post and die (roxymuzak), Thursday, 20 December 2012 12:01 (eleven years ago) link

there is a guy at the show I'm at who looks so like bj Novak lol

flag this post and die (roxymuzak), Friday, 21 December 2012 04:49 (eleven years ago) link

three weeks pass...

At first I was like oh this is interesting about giving the little girl and voice and all . . . oh but wait she's just telling all the boyz how much she loves them now. Awesome. ._. I totally had Poochie stuff. What the hell was Poochie anyway? Why is this ad bothering me so much? Can I go home now please?

go to party leather (ENBB), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:00 (eleven years ago) link

Wow. That ad contains multitudes.

carl agatha, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:01 (eleven years ago) link

RIGHT?!

go to party leather (ENBB), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:02 (eleven years ago) link

xp and the subtext that a girl can say what she feels as long as she dresses it up in socially acceptable femininity, or that a girl can say what she feels as long as what she feels coincides with a pre-printed Poochie stamp. So in that way, it's telling girls to express their feelings, but only if their feelings are appropriate per this consumer item.

Also LOL at how the girl in the ad looks twice as old as the boy.

I vaguely remember Poochie, but I can't remember whether I had any Poochie swag.

carl agatha, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:04 (eleven years ago) link

Yep to all that. And yeah why does the boy look so little? It's creepy in so many ways.

go to party leather (ENBB), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:05 (eleven years ago) link

I think I had the Poochie doll and some of the stationary stuff too. Apparently there was a Poochie movie but I do not remember that at all. I probably just liked it because it was a dog and pink tbh.

go to party leather (ENBB), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:06 (eleven years ago) link

A dog wearing sunglasses, even! If Poochie wasn't such a bossy, feelings-policing little shit, she'd be pretty cool.

carl agatha, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:07 (eleven years ago) link

Ahhh I remember that actual ad.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:08 (eleven years ago) link

hahaha! i want a "you drive me crazy" stamp!!

bish borscht (La Lechera), Friday, 11 January 2013 17:17 (eleven years ago) link

I was just thinking about poochie recently and wtf it was. I had a stamp thing that was poochie. that ad...wow.

flag this post and die (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 15 January 2013 16:43 (eleven years ago) link

I know I had Poochie merch as a kid but I can't for the life of me remember what it was

But I have a feeling it was the notepad and stamp. "If it wasn't for Poochie I would never have been able to tell boys that they're cute. Thanks Poochie!'

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 15 January 2013 17:28 (eleven years ago) link

Wait someone actually deleted that post? I thought it was nice! :(

go to party leather (ENBB), Tuesday, 15 January 2013 20:34 (eleven years ago) link

is ward fowler a dude??

flag this post and die (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 16 January 2013 17:07 (eleven years ago) link

Yeah, I think so.

go to party leather (ENBB), Wednesday, 16 January 2013 17:07 (eleven years ago) link

well,

flag this post and die (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 16 January 2013 17:37 (eleven years ago) link

has any dude post ever survived on this thread?

flag this post and die (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 16 January 2013 17:38 (eleven years ago) link

roxy for president

this customer is a jerk (La Lechera), Wednesday, 16 January 2013 17:55 (eleven years ago) link

otm

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 16 January 2013 18:01 (eleven years ago) link

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mollykateri/13-90s-teen-death-novels-that-actually-exist-421u

I feel like these would be of particular interest to La Lechera.

carl agatha, Friday, 18 January 2013 17:49 (eleven years ago) link

omg fucking cystic fibrosis -- i knew more about this dumb disease even though i didn't know ANYONE or anyone who knew anyone who had it.

this customer is a jerk (La Lechera), Friday, 18 January 2013 18:18 (eleven years ago) link

One year for "dress up as a character from a book" day at school, I wore my jammies, coughed a lot, and told everyone I was Alex from Alex: Life of a Child.

this customer is a jerk (La Lechera), Friday, 18 January 2013 18:19 (eleven years ago) link

Holy shit fucking Frank Deford wrote that!

carl agatha, Friday, 18 January 2013 18:21 (eleven years ago) link

(for those of you who do not read the Chicago Thread, I hate Frank Deford, he's such a grumpy old asshole.)

carl agatha, Friday, 18 January 2013 18:24 (eleven years ago) link

One of my best pals plays the title role in this:
http://www.cfvoice.com/info/becoming-christopher/index.jsp?usertrack.filter_applied=true&NovaId=4029462066891421904

kate78, Friday, 18 January 2013 18:28 (eleven years ago) link

POOCHIE

some girls, they rape so easy (sunny successor), Tuesday, 29 January 2013 17:34 (eleven years ago) link

http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20130211/NEWS/130211006/Sources-Shooter-was-father-of-ex-optometrist-who-kidnapped-kids

One of the women killed in this morning’s courthouse shooting was Christine Belford, a 39-year-old woman who was involved in a bitter custody dispute with her ex-husband, law enforcement and legal sources said.

Belford was at the center of a court fight with her ex-husband, David T. Matusiewicz, who kidnapped his three young daughters in August 2007 and took them on an 18-month odyssey to Panama, Costa Rica, Mexico and Nicaragua. In March 2009, authorities discovered Matusiewicz, his mother Lenore and the girls – then ages ages, 4, 6, and 7, one of whom is autistic -- living in a dirty and cramped trailer.

THE MAN KIDNAPPED HIS DAUGHTERS FOR TWO YEARS AND TOOK THEM TO LIVE IN A TRAILER IN PANAMA despite one of them needing medical/psych care, which presumably she was not getting. After being caught and doing time for that and for bank fraud, apparently he fell far enough behind in child support that he was due for a court visit to discuss it. Well, not anymore, because today David's FATHER went to the courthouse and shot Christine Belford (and another woman).

lets just remember to blame the patriarchy for (in orbit), Monday, 11 February 2013 19:36 (eleven years ago) link

I can't distill want I want to say about this into a coherent post. Something about women's bodies and fertility and who controls those things, and the comparatively small number of men who feel entitled to those things and cheated when they don't control them, and how bitter and final their vengeance is when they've been thwarted.

lets just remember to blame the patriarchy for (in orbit), Monday, 11 February 2013 19:42 (eleven years ago) link

greeeeeat
people are awful

and that sounds like a gong-concert (La Lechera), Monday, 11 February 2013 19:47 (eleven years ago) link

sorry -- that's the outrage i can muster atm
not because it's not terrible, it's obviously terrible, but because i can't connect it to fertility and women's bodies any more than i can connect it to any other travesty of modern life
people are the worst

and that sounds like a gong-concert (La Lechera), Monday, 11 February 2013 19:48 (eleven years ago) link

Also something about the vast majority of women homicide victims being killed by male family members (or ex-family members).

"the comparatively small number of men who feel entitled to those things and cheated when they don't control them, and how bitter and final their vengeance is when they've been thwarted."

Die in a fire, men's rights movement.

(Also, I posted this on the Chicago thread (because I did not expect anyone to be talking about this anywhere else), but Wilmington DE's chief of police was at a gun control round table with Joe Biden in Philadelphia when this happened.)

carl agatha, Monday, 11 February 2013 19:50 (eleven years ago) link

I saw that post-script in the version of the article that dayo posted this morning! Ironing.

lets just remember to blame the patriarchy for (in orbit), Monday, 11 February 2013 19:51 (eleven years ago) link

yeah everything about that story is terrible.
i guess i am at max cap for horrible human behavior currently and cannot become outraged if i also want to get my laundry done and teach people how to describe things tomorrow

i didn't mean to be flip, just trying to conserve energy :(

and that sounds like a gong-concert (La Lechera), Monday, 11 February 2013 19:51 (eleven years ago) link

i guess the current fashion for MRA rhetoric has made it seem like a new legitimacy is being given to such men's sense of entitlement over their offspring? even if the only "legitimacy" is that of a vocal hardcore, who can make the link to the question of individual liberty because the state tends to not be on their side.

bantz a make her dance (c sharp major), Monday, 11 February 2013 19:56 (eleven years ago) link

I think the MRA stuff is obviously a backlash to the world changing toward incrementally greater parity for women, which is where the world should keep right on going, but the death throes of each stage are so explosively violent and damaging.

lets just remember to blame the patriarchy for (in orbit), Monday, 11 February 2013 20:10 (eleven years ago) link

http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=347

lol

carl agatha, Monday, 11 February 2013 22:27 (eleven years ago) link

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/12/world/asia/zen-buddhists-roiled-by-accusations-against-teacher.html?hp&_r=1&

One monk, whom Ms. Stubbs said she told about the touching, was unsympathetic. “He believed in Roshi’s style, that sexualizing was teaching for particular women,” Ms. Stubbs said. The monk’s theory, common in Mr. Sasaki’s circle, was that such physicality could check a woman’s overly strong ego.

flag this post and die (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 12 February 2013 17:46 (eleven years ago) link

It seems to be the kind of thing that, you get the person as a whole, good and bad, just like you marry somebody and you get their strengths and wonderful qualities as well as their weaknesses.

You know, like how when you're assaulted, you get both the good AND bad qualities of your assailant!

lets just remember to blame the patriarchy for (in orbit), Tuesday, 12 February 2013 18:29 (eleven years ago) link

this is like the feminist and the cowboy - the sequel

sarahell, Tuesday, 12 February 2013 18:42 (eleven years ago) link

such physicality could check a woman’s overly strong ego

way to put uppity bitches in their place.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 12 February 2013 19:48 (eleven years ago) link

Women and their overly strong egos just need to be sexually assaulted into submission!

carl agatha, Tuesday, 12 February 2013 19:48 (eleven years ago) link

~zen~

flag this post and die (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 13 February 2013 17:27 (eleven years ago) link

happy valentine's day, ladies

http://s3-ak.buzzfeed.com/static/enhanced/webdr01/2013/2/8/15/enhanced-buzz-21889-1360354926-4.jpg

purp (roxymuzak), Thursday, 14 February 2013 16:08 (eleven years ago) link

Long lost bros...

http://assets.thehollywoodgossip.com/photos/full/paul-ryan-time-magazine.jpg

carl agatha, Thursday, 14 February 2013 16:14 (eleven years ago) link

I kiss you Roxy!

go to party leather (ENBB), Thursday, 14 February 2013 16:24 (eleven years ago) link

two months pass...

http://www.buzzfeed.com/copyranter/don-draper-approved-sexist-ads-of-the-week

By now, to a large extent advertisers don't have to spell out this stuff anymore because the advertising worked - we internalized the messages as truth. I think it's interesting to look at these ads as milestones on the path from the days before companies made up fears of odor in the "vaginal area" to sell products to today, when the message re: our filthy smelly snatches has been fully internalized and can be referenced with a picture of a woman in white pants smiling or just the word "freshness."

carl agatha, Wednesday, 1 May 2013 21:17 (ten years ago) link

haha, I actually posted this to my band's fb page

You must be very cold in the sack. (sarahell), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 21:29 (ten years ago) link

Wait I can't even get past the first one. So many things. So many! But mint?! Mint smelling vagina just seems so damn weird.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 21:30 (ten years ago) link

don't they have mint-flavored/scented condoms?

You must be very cold in the sack. (sarahell), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 21:32 (ten years ago) link

the fact that scented tampons are still commercial available infuriates me - if only because I have accidentally purchased them and they are the WORST things ever

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 21:33 (ten years ago) link

i'd rather wear a scented tampon than one of those horrible-looking menstrual pad/belt contraptions my mom did when she was a teenager

You must be very cold in the sack. (sarahell), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 21:35 (ten years ago) link

good point

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 21:35 (ten years ago) link

not that scented tampons aren't gross

You must be very cold in the sack. (sarahell), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 21:37 (ten years ago) link

Scented tampons are weird and gross and bad for you too.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 21:37 (ten years ago) link

I guess the do make mint condoms but I assumed that was for blow jobs so you didn't taste latex? Tbh I never used one so never thought about it. I mean how many people actually use condoms for blowjobs is another convo but yeah.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 21:38 (ten years ago) link

lol it raises so many questions that you don't want to think about

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 21:40 (ten years ago) link

xp - I always thought of it as a like a "don't acknowledge the 4th wall" kinda thing with the 4th wall being the condom, as in you would not let the condom get in the way of stuff you'd normally do without it as a barrier, i dunno

You must be very cold in the sack. (sarahell), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 21:43 (ten years ago) link

definitely weird and gross to put perfume in your vagina imo, but i have a weird attraction to anything scented, so this is conflicting in an odd way

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 22:05 (ten years ago) link

lol

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 22:32 (ten years ago) link

the fact that scented tampons are still commercial available infuriates me - if only because I have accidentally purchased them and they are the WORST things ever

― set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, May 1, 2013 9:33 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Like the time I accidentally bought Febreeze scented garbage bags, which made our inside trash, which sometimes smells like garbage but usually smells like coffee grounds or nothing noticeable, smell like trashy Febreeze. Ugh. UGH.

Not that vaginas smell like trash, mind you.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 1 May 2013 22:56 (ten years ago) link

roxy has a case of Yoni Yum stashed in the back of her closet.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 1 May 2013 22:57 (ten years ago) link

"Like the time I accidentally bought Febreeze scented garbage bags, which made our inside trash, which sometimes smells like garbage but usually smells like coffee grounds or nothing noticeable, smell like trashy Febreeze. Ugh. UGH."

OMG I JUST DID THIS AND IT WAS TERRIBLE.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 22:58 (ten years ago) link

It is so bad. Apologies to whomever I'm about to offend, but anybody who buys those on purpose has no sense of smell. Or decency.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 1 May 2013 23:06 (ten years ago) link

agreed

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 23:09 (ten years ago) link

I can't even stand scented cat litter; no way am I putting nasty commercial scent up my vagina!

On a related note, why the fucking fuck is it so hard to find regular cardboard applicator tampons these days? FUCK YOUR PEARL JUST GIVE ME MY BIODEGRADABLE PLS THANK U.

quincie, Thursday, 2 May 2013 00:52 (ten years ago) link

diva cup

veryupsetmom (harbl), Thursday, 2 May 2013 00:55 (ten years ago) link

I have contemplated this, but it would be a major departure and I dunno seems less convenient?

quincie, Thursday, 2 May 2013 00:59 (ten years ago) link

u can leave it in like forever depending on how much gunk you produce, that's pretty convenient

veryupsetmom (harbl), Thursday, 2 May 2013 01:03 (ten years ago) link

Also do not have to buy replacements while in foreign country away from major suppliers.

lets just remember to blame the patriarchy for (in orbit), Thursday, 2 May 2013 01:14 (ten years ago) link

Growing my nails have made tampons so much more dangerous (I live on the edge - tuck the string in because I cannot deal with that feeling.)

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Thursday, 2 May 2013 01:34 (ten years ago) link

Quincie I believe I complained about the same thing on another thread! Why are they so insistent on making everyone use more plastic?

kinder, Thursday, 2 May 2013 08:07 (ten years ago) link

do they sell non-applicator tampons in the US at all? i am one of those smug cup-using hippies, but back when i bought tampons on the regular p much all uk non-tampax options were applicator-free.

snapchats and tattoos (c sharp major), Thursday, 2 May 2013 08:23 (ten years ago) link

i had the hardest time finding non-app tampons when i moved here - in nz it's the opposite case. i think there is only like ONE brand of non-app here.

just1n3, Thursday, 2 May 2013 08:34 (ten years ago) link

OB is strictly non-applicator now. I think there is at least one other brand that makes a non-app variant

You must be very cold in the sack. (sarahell), Thursday, 2 May 2013 09:49 (ten years ago) link

Ob was always non app weren't they? Keep it simple and set yourself free from the extras that you really don't need. Just try OB and you'll see.

free your spirit pig (La Lechera), Thursday, 2 May 2013 11:36 (ten years ago) link

OB
it's the way it should be

They were non-applicator when I was in high school so they've been non-app since the 80s at least.

carl agatha, Thursday, 2 May 2013 12:46 (ten years ago) link

i love OB

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 2 May 2013 15:37 (ten years ago) link

I wish OB weren't so small. I have to change them all the time the first few days so I rarely buy them.

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Thursday, 2 May 2013 15:58 (ten years ago) link

My period is so out of hand that tampons are a pointless endeavor for me anyway. I can't even use a cup for the first two or three days, so I mostly just use pads. And usually cloth ones, although recently my period has been even more out of hand than usual and I got really tired of all that extra laundry so I've been killing the earth with disposable pads. :(

carl agatha, Thursday, 2 May 2013 16:04 (ten years ago) link

Yeah I get ob, but in nz there are a million kinds, including ones that come in little plain-packaged multi packs so you can just throw a little pack of 6 or so in your bag. And also super-duper sized, which I'm a fan of the first day. Gotta admit, I'm kinda excited about menopause.

just1n3, Thursday, 2 May 2013 17:05 (ten years ago) link

Ha, totally. I was one of those "I love my cycle!!! I am one with the earth!!!" people until my mid-30s and since then I've been like, That's plenty of menstruating for one lifetime. Can we stop this now, please?

carl agatha, Thursday, 2 May 2013 17:52 (ten years ago) link

mine was worse in high school, it's p manageable now. but i feel like the premenstrual craziness and cramping has gotten way worse. I had to go out and buy fucking Pamprin last time :(

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 2 May 2013 18:00 (ten years ago) link

My period used to be problematic because I got really bad cramps, nausea, and hot flashes! Pill fixed that. Now my period is not too bad, but because I have developed a bunch (6 at last count) of FIBROIDS I don't want to risk getting off the pill even though I otherwise would. Apparently it is the only thing keeping me from whoa levels of bleeding and between-period spotting.

Kinda of just want to go ahead and get a hysterectomy already.

quincie, Thursday, 2 May 2013 18:57 (ten years ago) link

A friend of mine actually did that. She had terrible fibroids and when she was in her 30s was like fuck it, take it out. She totally mocks me when I complain about my period, too.

carl agatha, Thursday, 2 May 2013 19:02 (ten years ago) link

I don't like being on the pill for huge lengths of time...I think it's just a mental thing where I want to know what my period is like without it from time to time, just to make sure nothing is weird.

idk, I'm weird

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 2 May 2013 19:26 (ten years ago) link

No, you're not. I am pretty anti hormonal birth control for myself for similar reasons. It's one of the main reasons I had a copper IUD for so many years. That said, I'm really lucky in that my periods aren't really bad and more often than not a couple of Advil alleviates any pain.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Thursday, 2 May 2013 19:44 (ten years ago) link

I'm gonna try a low-dose (mini) pill when I'm back in the states; my gyn and I agreed we didn't want to experiment while I was out of the country (and with minimal health insurance) for several months! My blood pressure has been on the high ("prehypertensive") side for a couple of years now; all the more reason to get off the pill. But there is no way I can go back to the agony of the off-the-pill periods of my early 20s!

quincie, Thursday, 2 May 2013 19:49 (ten years ago) link

The minipill isn't necessarily low does but it is a progestin-only birth control pill and doesn't contain estrogen. It's often recommended for use in women who are at risk for certain health issues including high blood pressure.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Thursday, 2 May 2013 19:54 (ten years ago) link

iirc the only drawbacks is that it really has to be taken at the exact same time every day in order to be effective and it may make periods irregular and/or cause spotting.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Thursday, 2 May 2013 19:55 (ten years ago) link

I feel like I'm the only person who has no bad side-effects of the pill. Well, I have a small patch of discolouration (melasma) on my cheek that could be caused by it.

kinder, Thursday, 2 May 2013 19:58 (ten years ago) link

I never had any side-effects, I just don't take a lot of medication in general, so it kinda weirds me out taking it for long periods of time.

But that being said, I tooooottttally get having to do it, especially with heavy/painful periods and all the other stuff that goes along with it, solidarity for life etc

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 2 May 2013 20:03 (ten years ago) link

My only problems on the pill was the Crying for No Reason Whatsoever while on a trial of Yasmin. Otherwise, it does wonders for my irregular, painful periods and my acne! Also: no babby, which is also the point. Spouse is happy to get vasectomified for the no babby bit, but I am nervous about what my crazy uterus will get up to on its own devices :(

quincie, Thursday, 2 May 2013 20:10 (ten years ago) link

the pill helped w/my period pains but it made me super emo all the time. plus i couldn't remember to take it. plus i just could not except that this little teeny pill would stop me getting pregnant.

just1n3, Thursday, 2 May 2013 20:16 (ten years ago) link

I hate those plastic applicators for many reasons including:

1. yay more petrochemical waste!
2. do they recycle? I do not know! but our recycling supposedly gets hand-sorted at the depot so basically no, that would not be cool
3. this might just be me but I cannot even work the things and usually end up just peeling the plastic off
4. makes the whole product giant and harder to hide discreetly in a small bag pocket
5. also 1+2 make you feel more guilty when you find an elderly one stashed as in 4 and throw it out unused because it's been hanging around so long

etc etc tmi

susuwatari teenage riot (a passing spacecadet), Thursday, 2 May 2013 22:30 (ten years ago) link

whenever i am walking around or jogging and see a plastic tampon applicator on the ground (because apparently people are always throwing these out car windows or dropping them, or rats are carrying them out of dumpsters maybe) i think "whoa those exist???" because they are so absurd imo!

veryupsetmom (harbl), Thursday, 2 May 2013 22:34 (ten years ago) link

*i still use them*

sry

I never used to, i always used the ob ones

...tmi blah blah I had some difficulties a while back,the plastic applicator was kinda necessary and then I never switched back to the regular ones

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 2 May 2013 22:46 (ten years ago) link

but I don't throw them out in the street

srsly who does that

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 2 May 2013 22:46 (ten years ago) link

it wasn't a judgment they're just weird to me!

veryupsetmom (harbl), Thursday, 2 May 2013 22:47 (ten years ago) link

lol it's okay I just have a guilty conscience

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 2 May 2013 22:49 (ten years ago) link

yeah, I don't mind other people using them (though the ones I've seen do seem a bit bulky and wasteful but that's the manufacturer's fault and def. not yours) but they are not for me.

I usually just removed the old-style card applicator tubes too, so I am not really target market, but at least I could get them to slide out when wanted and not when not wanted, and they seemed less wasteful and less annoying to dispose of somehow.

susuwatari teenage riot (a passing spacecadet), Thursday, 2 May 2013 22:55 (ten years ago) link

my mum was too cheap to buy the app ones when i was a teen (they are way more expensive in nz), so non-app is basically all i've known. the few times i've used app ones, i've found it... awkward. TMI ALERT!!!!--> with app ones i'm never sure if it's in properly? and man there is nothing more uncomfortable than walking round with a tampon that is not in all the way.

just1n3, Thursday, 2 May 2013 23:03 (ten years ago) link

otm

carl agatha, Thursday, 2 May 2013 23:27 (ten years ago) link

yeah it's a horrible feeling

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 2 May 2013 23:55 (ten years ago) link

I can't get the non-apps to feel like they are in the right place!

quincie, Friday, 3 May 2013 00:10 (ten years ago) link

Hmm maybe this is a fingers too short or vagina too long problem?

quincie, Friday, 3 May 2013 00:10 (ten years ago) link

I have very short fingers and don't have that problem so that seems...unlikely, but what do I know, I've only ever had the one vagina so

lets just remember to blame the patriarchy for (in orbit), Friday, 3 May 2013 00:11 (ten years ago) link

I have pretty long finger so idk maybe I will have to experiment further. But this is one reason why I am diva cup shy--how will I get it in the right place?

quincie, Friday, 3 May 2013 00:12 (ten years ago) link

occasionally it takes multiple tries but if you fold it correctly it just opens in the right place and sits there

veryupsetmom (harbl), Friday, 3 May 2013 00:19 (ten years ago) link

i had depression-related probs on every form of hormonal birth control except the nuva ring, which is probably because it's such a low dose. not "mood swings", but like complete personality/interest-in-life loss, lethargy, etc.

my periods are agony for a couple of hours before they start, and this has def gotten worse over the years. i used to have 0 problems and only a couple day long period. now its a couple hours of seriously crippling cramps/back pain, and like a three day period. my sis has endometriosis and i think that is genetic(?) and i pray i and my other sisters don't have/develop it. she's had terrible problems as a result

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Friday, 3 May 2013 16:47 (ten years ago) link

endometriosis is awful. one of my friends in high school had juvenile rheumatoid arthritis and was on a lot of cortisone and painkillers through her teens and early 20's...later on she found out she had endometriosis and the crazy thing is that as painful as endometriosis is, she had had no idea she even had it because of all the painkillers she'd been taking.

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 3 May 2013 17:01 (ten years ago) link

I went off hormonal bc in an effort to stop having migraines and 1) it worked, so yay, but 2) I think the process of weaning myself off the hormones sent me into a weird emotional storm that I'm just now crawling my way out of. Super weird, not easy, but ultimately glad I stopped. Maybe I'm attributing more powers to hormones than they deserve, but I feel better in p much every way now, finally. That's my $0.02 about hormonal bc for women.

Oh and now that I'm off, cramps wake me up at night but at least I feel alive.

free your spirit pig (La Lechera), Friday, 3 May 2013 18:50 (ten years ago) link

never been on the pill, cramps are pretty minor, in that it just feels like a mild hangover, so getting my period is often a complete surprise. it makes me feel like i fail at being female. i also use applicators, because it's like a tool, and tools are cool.

You must be very cold in the sack. (sarahell), Friday, 3 May 2013 21:55 (ten years ago) link

I saw a blue plastic tampon applicator on the ground at the bus stop this morning and thought of you, harbl.

carl agatha, Friday, 3 May 2013 21:58 (ten years ago) link

I wrote, "harbl was here" on a post-it note and stuck it on the applicator.

carl agatha, Friday, 3 May 2013 21:59 (ten years ago) link

:D

veryupsetmom (harbl), Friday, 3 May 2013 22:09 (ten years ago) link

one month passes...

since itt we discuss tampons and applicators
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/magazine/2013/innovations-issue/#/?part=tampon

my favorite part: "digital tampons"

free your spirit pig (La Lechera), Wednesday, 12 June 2013 15:54 (ten years ago) link

FASCINATING! Update: someone I know really believes that tampons can uh harm? your "virginity" and has never used them in her life (despite having given birth!) and won't allow her teenaged daughter to have them in the house. I am so weirded out. This just came up like 2 weeks ago and I don't know where to go with it. I think at a minimum I'm going to let the daughter know that I am at least open to talking about it if she has any questions?

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Wednesday, 12 June 2013 16:01 (ten years ago) link

Oh dear. That is too bad.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 16:02 (ten years ago) link

is this the neighbor?
i would not interfere behind mom's back but i would tell mom to her face that i don't agree that tampons have an impact on "virginity"

free your spirit pig (La Lechera), Wednesday, 12 June 2013 16:06 (ten years ago) link

It was unexpected. She's mostly normal and modern and realistic about life things.

xp I did tell her, and I don't think she has any rational reason (I mean even in her own mind), it's just learned emotional prejudice.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Wednesday, 12 June 2013 16:07 (ten years ago) link

My mom tried this gambit on me when I was 13. Swiftly got the Mayo Clinic medical book (her Bible) out and fought back with BIOLOGICAL SCIENCE.

on the sidelines dishing out sass (suzy), Wednesday, 12 June 2013 16:28 (ten years ago) link

"I lost my virginity to tampax."
Who the fuck even thinks this is a reasonable thing to think?

kate78, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 17:35 (ten years ago) link

The sad thing is that the person in question was also sexually assaulted at least twice in her life, which makes me think like when that happened to her and whenever she has thought about it in all the years afterward, did she think it was "sex"?? What must that mean for a person with those beliefs to think of it that way? It's horrifying.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Wednesday, 12 June 2013 17:39 (ten years ago) link

Guys can we talk mooncup? I know some of you use them and now that I no longer have an IUD I think I might give one a shot. Which do you use and do you like them etc.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 12 June 2013 20:12 (ten years ago) link

i am wondering about them too. i have a v short but v heavy flow, and super tampons are waay too absorbent, normals are not absorbent enough etc tmi tmi

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 12 June 2013 20:17 (ten years ago) link

Mine's not really bad. I'm OK with regulars throughout etc. I don't know if that matters but there it is.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 12 June 2013 20:20 (ten years ago) link

i just hate having to change them so often, is my thing with regulars

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 12 June 2013 20:21 (ten years ago) link

Pretty sure I've talked about this before, but:

I primarily prefer pads, because I don't want to lose my virginity to tampons. JUST KIDDING. My period is BANANAS heavy so tampons are a joke. But after the first couple of Shining-elevator-scene days, I really like the Diva Cup because I can just stick it in and go about my day and only empty it once, maybe twice if I'm out for a long time. That is with a flow that would still be too heavy for regular tampons, so you regular users would probably find that you can empty it even less.

Dealing with it in a public restroom, especially a stall, takes some getting used to but once you do it a couple of times it is pretty easy. I have found that carrying a little packet of some kind of vagina-friendly wipes so I can clean off the cup and my hands and not risk getting little bits of TP stuck to everything makes it much easier. It is also useful to practice taking it out and putting it in before you find yourself with your leg propped up on the stall wall, bleeding all over everything while you try to get the fucker back in the right way. I would also wear a backup pad/liner with it the first few times you take the show on the road just in case you don't have it situated quite right. But seriously, by the second or third day you use it, you'll be an expert at cramming it up there the right way.

Other pros - environment, cheaper by far in the long run.

Oh, I have tried The Keeper long long ago and didn't care for it. I do like the Diva Cup. That's the only other one I've used, and I've had this one for a long ass time.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 20:29 (ten years ago) link

The only thing I tried in this vein was the instead cups years and years ago and I could ever get the fuckers to sit right but I think they work differently than the keeper, diva, and mooncup do.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 12 June 2013 20:34 (ten years ago) link

I can't remember what thread it was on that we talked about this stuff but since i"m here and too tired to look I'm gonna put it here anyway. I have started washing my face with coconut oil. I am very scared about this but it's been three nights and my face has totally cleared up? I had these little bumps that I thought were tiny spots but they're just gone. I'm kind of amazed. Will keep you posted.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 12 June 2013 20:37 (ten years ago) link

My best technique is to fold it in half, insert it, let it unfold, and the twist and pull slightly until it feels like its created a seal. It's also important to figure out how far up is comfortable/appropriate for you. Pro tip: practice inserting it in the shower.

xp that is exciting about the coconut oil!

carl agatha, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 20:38 (ten years ago) link

intrigued by coconut oil face washing

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Sunday, 16 June 2013 15:30 (ten years ago) link

still so far so good - will give a thorough update in a week. let's hope my face doesn't explode between now and then. I have no reason to think it will except for the fact that putting oil on my face still seems weird.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Monday, 17 June 2013 03:45 (ten years ago) link

Last week I bought coconut oil on the recommendation of you fine ladies. I haven't tried it yet though because a) Oil scares me and b)PP hates coconut so much the he cannot even stand to look at coconuts on TV. I am going to try it. I just hope I don't get served with papers a week later.

educate yourself to this reality (sunny successor), Monday, 24 June 2013 14:55 (ten years ago) link

PP hates coconut so much the he cannot even stand to look at coconuts on TV

omg!

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Monday, 24 June 2013 15:30 (ten years ago) link

I am enjoying smelling like a macaroon. I don't know if I'll keep using it on my face. I haven't decided yet. It's definitely the best shaving "cream" I've ever used.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Monday, 24 June 2013 15:31 (ten years ago) link

PP hates coconut so much the he cannot even stand to look at coconuts on TV

hahaha this is so funny

e - how much do you use on your face when you wash it? i finally bought some

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Monday, 24 June 2013 15:35 (ten years ago) link

Just a little scoop. I just googled it but it says to massage it in and then put a hot washcloth over your face to open your pores a little and leave it there a couple seconds until it cools. Then you just wipe the excess away with the washcloth. That's it!

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Monday, 24 June 2013 15:41 (ten years ago) link

lol sunny.

tangentially related to sunny's predicament, but not really: years ago my sister-in-law ended up trying on one of my mother in law's perfumes. sister in law goes home, forgets about it. husband gets affectionate and then freaks right out, because his wife smells like his mom --- it fucked with his head so much she ended up taking a shower to get the perfume off.

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 24 June 2013 15:59 (ten years ago) link

i finally managed to revive my yearbook tumblr thing and this picture seemed noteworthy because all four of these girls look like movie stars. The girl who looks like she's about to join the source family is my favorite, but they're all adorable.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/e69611b29c940b832c1595b7612d31eb/tumblr_mp20h0KHxA1rcq6xho1_500.jpg

also that reminds me - i was wondering if we could talk about this concept of "resting bitchface"

free your spirit pig (La Lechera), Thursday, 27 June 2013 13:51 (ten years ago) link

We could talk about it, but this is the first I've ever heard of it!

quincie, Thursday, 27 June 2013 14:59 (ten years ago) link

i saw something on jezebel about it -- everyone has a resting face. it's the face you make when you're not making any expression at all. some people, apparently, are told a lot that they have a "resting bitchface", indicating that their natural face is in some way communicating hostility.

free your spirit pig (La Lechera), Thursday, 27 June 2013 15:02 (ten years ago) link

and i tried to take a picture of my resting face, to see what it looked like. and it looked sad!

free your spirit pig (La Lechera), Thursday, 27 June 2013 15:04 (ten years ago) link

I worry that my resting face looks slack and vacant. Like I will be working away and realize I'm sitting at my desk with my mouth slightly open. I guess that's better than my other bad habit which is to sit with my jaw clenched so tightly that I get terrible headaches.

carl agatha, Thursday, 27 June 2013 15:06 (ten years ago) link

Anyway, resting bitchface is a dumb concept that has its roots in the fucked up idea that women should always look pleasing and accommodating, IMO.

carl agatha, Thursday, 27 June 2013 15:07 (ten years ago) link

it fucked with his head so much she ended up taking a shower to get the perfume off.
oh man, i don't doubt it for a second. yikes!

agree with u carl
just one MORE thing for us to feel like we have to "work on" -- your face is sitting wrong

free your spirit pig (La Lechera), Thursday, 27 June 2013 15:10 (ten years ago) link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3v98CPXNiSk

kate78, Thursday, 27 June 2013 16:24 (ten years ago) link

lol at the blonde girl who points at her bitchy resting face

free your spirit pig (La Lechera), Thursday, 27 June 2013 16:32 (ten years ago) link

resting asshole face

carl agatha, Thursday, 27 June 2013 16:37 (ten years ago) link

I look permanently pissed off, even on the rare occasions that i'm not!

kinder, Thursday, 27 June 2013 17:44 (ten years ago) link

o yeah ppl alwayyyys think im mad and im almost never mad

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Saturday, 29 June 2013 20:56 (ten years ago) link

How greasy is it acceptable for hair to be when going to the hairdresser for a wash+trim? Do I have to wash my hair just to make it clean enough for someone else to wash it? And then wash it again to get the tiny hairs out and make the new cut look good? Gah.

I normally get a dry trim so I don't have to think about these things (also because the heavy-duty shampoos/conditioners salons use often makes my scalp itch) but last time I booked the receptionist told me they never did dry cuts even though I'd previously had several at this salon, so I'm trying to do things the approved way this time.

slippery kelp on the tide (a passing spacecadet), Wednesday, 3 July 2013 20:02 (ten years ago) link

I am usually pretty greasy when I go to the salon. I generally tend to wash my hair on Sunday or Monday and then again sometime towards the end of the week. If my hair cut is on Monday, though, I'll be like fuck it, why wash my hair Sunday if I'm just going to have it washed on Monday? So I'm usually on four day hair when I go in, which is really beyond the limits of acceptability for going out in public.

My stylist has been cutting my hair for like eight years, though, so she knows I'm gross.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 3 July 2013 20:10 (ten years ago) link

Ha last time I got my hair cut I hadn't washed it in a week. Ytth always tells me how good my hair smells when its unwashed so I didn't really think about it. So anyway I apologized in advance to the stylist for it bring kinda greasy and she mentioned that it smelled strongly of argan oil (which I wasnt using at the time) but it wasnt unpleasant.

Cut to: some weeks later, I've purchased argan oil for the first tome and omg it smells kinda gross. So now I feel a little embarrassed bc I wonder if she was too nice to say that it was gross. Ytth is no help bc he thinks it smells good even after a week.

I wish I could smell my own hair :/

just1n3, Wednesday, 3 July 2013 21:53 (ten years ago) link

I've been known to powder my hair to make it presentable for the last half-day before a wash and cut, but I do feel slightly sheepish telling the stylist, by the way, my hair is full of corn starch. Lucky she's cool and doesn't care (and has probably seen a lot worse).

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Thursday, 4 July 2013 03:15 (ten years ago) link

Man I wish i could get away with not washing my hair every day :(

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Thursday, 4 July 2013 03:24 (ten years ago) link

the problem is that once you start not-washing every day, you NEVER want to wash it.

just1n3, Thursday, 4 July 2013 05:10 (ten years ago) link

OTM

carl agatha, Thursday, 4 July 2013 12:31 (ten years ago) link

Since it grew longer, I've settled into a routine of washing and conditioning every third day. The first day's a wash/condition; the second day's just a rinse in hot water to remove 'product' and maybe a little light styling conditioner when damp; the third is another rinse in hot water - and that night, I rub/comb olive oil or argan oil in my hair and leave it in overnight to be washed out in the morning. I tend to do all my hair dyeing on this last day in the cycle.

A good friend of mine is a hairdresser and she says that compared to some of the things she's seen on scalps, the average customer's greasy hair is NBD. You can't control that as much as not turning up with smoky, smelly hair coated in yesterday's hairspray.

aldi young dudes (suzy), Thursday, 4 July 2013 12:41 (ten years ago) link

I don't get my hair wet at all in between washes, and in winter when I can wear a hat to work I've been known to go over a week without washing.

My problem is I get a crazy flaky + itchy scalp by day 3, only relieved by washing.

just1n3, Thursday, 4 July 2013 15:09 (ten years ago) link

Try massaging almond oil into your scalp from time to time, may quieten down the flakes and itchies.

aldi young dudes (suzy), Thursday, 4 July 2013 15:27 (ten years ago) link

Hmm, interested to try the hot water but no product thing. I try not to wash every day because it gets frizzy/flyaway and starts to look greasy quite quickly if I wash too often, so I'm curious whether being rinsed without shampoo has the same effect or not.

I never quite mastered the powder-on-hair trick, either using talc/baby powder or using some ancient bottle of "dry shampoo" my mother had. Could never get it to comb out and would always end up having to wash it out instead, defeating the point...

slippery kelp on the tide (a passing spacecadet), Thursday, 4 July 2013 15:31 (ten years ago) link

Repped it in another thread but: blowpro dry shampoo is cornstarch-based and has a fantastic puff dispenser that makes it super easy and effective to use. I thought it was pricey at $14 fir a tiny bottle but it has lasted so much longer than others I have used.

Xp I will give the almond oil a try - so far I've tried coconut oil, ACV/lavender/teatree, super balm from lush, and head and shoulders, and nothing has really worked.

just1n3, Thursday, 4 July 2013 15:44 (ten years ago) link

The blowpro is also scentless, which is a huge plus

just1n3, Thursday, 4 July 2013 15:46 (ten years ago) link

I won't use dry shampoo - it's never worked for me. If you have dark hair it can be like spraying fake dandruff on, too.

If I were you, I'd switch to a gentler shampoo (if you're economising, those big bottles of TRESemmé are good value) and apply conditioner to your hair, not the scalp. It sounds like what you're using is a little bit strippey for your head, which makes your scalp redouble its sebum-producing efforts, vicious-circle style. I settled on the 'ducking head in hot bath water' method because I don't feel clean or like I'm able to de-stress unless I dip all of me in the hottest water I can manage, first thing in the morning.

aldi young dudes (suzy), Thursday, 4 July 2013 15:55 (ten years ago) link

Am already doing all that!

just1n3, Thursday, 4 July 2013 16:16 (ten years ago) link

I thought the problem would resolve itself over time, once I started cutting way down on washing, but it's been a year (or 2 years?) And no change.

just1n3, Thursday, 4 July 2013 16:18 (ten years ago) link

I rinse my hair in between washes, too, and sometimes give my scalp a scrub with my fingertips. Plus I wash my bangs or else they get really greasy.

carl agatha, Thursday, 4 July 2013 17:25 (ten years ago) link

i am obeying the instructions of my hairdresser and using special shampoo she sold me. she said it's concentrated so only use small amounts. this was her second suggestion after i refused to wash my hair less frequently because i just like washing my hair. i have more stuff in my scalp now though. like if i scratch my head it's in my fingernails. i can't get it out when i shower anymore. but it does feel like it gets greasy more slowly.

veryupsetmom (harbl), Thursday, 4 July 2013 19:39 (ten years ago) link

two weeks pass...

where did rrobyn go??? miss her :(

quincie, Friday, 19 July 2013 15:07 (ten years ago) link

I had a dream that I posted in this thread to ask what a tampon is.

i had a dream that i said to some misogynistic jerk on facebook: "i'm embarrassed that you went to haw school"

Gregory Bateson is always appropriate (sarahell), Sunday, 21 July 2013 23:39 (ten years ago) link

haw school grads SHOULD know better!

Oh I remember what I wanted to post ITT

Is it just a given that guys look at porn? I mean, everyone masturbates for sure. It has always made me uncomfortable over the years that whoever I was in a relationship with was jerking it to the hot internet ladies in the other room. This makes me feel like a selfish prude bcz "sex positive" or whatever.

I grew up in a religious culture that is super weird about pornography and masturbation. A lot of that I have got over, but there was always a message that if your man likes porn, he doesn't really love you or find you attractive. I feel conflicted because I know that's not true, or that it's unreasonable to think all 100% of each other's sex needs is going to some from your partner exclusively. Is it? I can't deny that it just makes me feel bad and gross knowing that the guy I love is jerking it to porn in the other room. Also that I feel bad about feeling bad about that. The last part is the part that's fucked.

I guess the part that really bothers me is that it's in my own house, when I'm around, like...why aren't you fucking me??

Also I want to feel like it's ok to feel at the same time 'I know looking at porn is probably some basic part of human sexuality' and 'I think porn on the whole is pretty gross.' I guess I am ashamed that I have an undeniable feeling that I see as being pretty reactionary, too. I don't like that!

I suppose I'd be a bit bugged if my guy was doing it in the next room instead of with me, or at least asking me to join in! But, eh it happens esp in long term live in relationships. Try joining in! Its fun!

I find it always curious how suprised (and usually pleased) guys are when I tell em *I* look at porn. Its not that weird surely!

It is like ganging up on Enya (Trayce), Monday, 22 July 2013 00:02 (ten years ago) link

I didn't grow up in that culture, but I feel the same way as you, and have the same misgivings and feeling bad about feeling bad-ness.

Gregory Bateson is always appropriate (sarahell), Monday, 22 July 2013 00:07 (ten years ago) link

The way I came to terms with it is that it is an aspect of the privacy and independence that is required for a relationship to be healthy.

Gregory Bateson is always appropriate (sarahell), Monday, 22 July 2013 00:09 (ten years ago) link

I did try asking my guy to 'join in,' it felt like 'heh heh I tricked him' sort of manipulative to me. 'I got him to have erotic feelings for me and not the fantasy movie actress! Sucker!' Maybe an awful reaction, but true.

I agree, sarahell, that is the right outlook, and a necessary one. I have had a lot of time off work, which has meant too much time to introspect, or to fixate on relatively small things like this and make them too big. It's been hard to get my head in a good place about this. I think it helps acknowledging to myself that it's ok to find it unsavory.

There really secretly IS a part of me that thinks: Why do I have to accept that guys look at porn? Can't they just not do that? This is the same part of myself that is angry that men can't get pregnant.

I realize it's unfair to be like 'everyone should bend to MY FEELINGS.'

i remember coming across some of the porn my ex was watching while we were together, and it was very much, "ugh, really? high chroma video of permed blondes with fake tits?" I had higher hopes for his taste in porn tbh

Gregory Bateson is always appropriate (sarahell), Monday, 22 July 2013 00:20 (ten years ago) link

ha, for real :(

we did watch sexy movies together and then, y'know, do it, so it wasn't as if we didn't communicate about that stuff and the role that erotic material plays in getting off.

Gregory Bateson is always appropriate (sarahell), Monday, 22 July 2013 00:24 (ten years ago) link

there were just some things that he wanted to do in private - like watch porn with blondes with boob jobs and do foot hygiene

Gregory Bateson is always appropriate (sarahell), Monday, 22 July 2013 00:26 (ten years ago) link

Yeah I like to wax my little moustache in private, and listen to The Police, and sometimes look at some animated gif porn on tumblr too. It is only reasonable he should have his own private set of same kind of things.

I guess it also helos that I have friends who I think are pretty sex positive, like my friend who teaches a pole fitness class, and they have this same kind of conflict about their partners' porn habits. I just want to feel ok feeling this way. I don't know how to change my feelings or what it would take to make that happen.

Pictures/videos of naked people doing it are great but porn as an industry, overall, is gross at least as far as power dynamics goes (speaking to hetero porn here, including "girl on girl" created for straight guys). You don't have to be okay with porn just to meet some "sex positive" criteria if you don't feel it. Not being cool with porn doesn't make you sex negative. It just means you are not cool with porn.

As for the initial question, it totally depends on the porn. Also frequency, general attitude towards porn v actual sex, general attitudes towards women, general attitudes towards me and my body. I think it's too complicated to reduce that to porn or no porn.

Lawyer... SUAVE... (carl agatha), Monday, 22 July 2013 01:03 (ten years ago) link

Abbs your misgivings/discomfort are YOURS, and real, and valid, yah? And you are aware of how your history/upbringing may be playing into your discomfort, so clearly you already have a lot of self-awareness and insight going on here.

So no way am I gonna suggest that your perspective is outside any "norm," and who the fuck cares about norm, anyway!

Does your partner KNOW about your discomfort, and does he/she take that into consideration and is respectful of that? To me, that is the most important factor at work here.

That said, there are womens (me, for example) who embrace "porn" as part of an enjoyable and mutually respectful/comfortable/stimulating sex life, both as partner-sex and individual sex (aka fantasy, masturbation, etc.). But I am picky about what sorts of external eroticism we bring into our relationship; my partner is on the same page; we are attuned to each other's feelings about erotic "other" stuff (porn, toys, etc). My partner also has preferences and limits of comfort, which I respect.

I dunno this is really TMI for me, but it is an important question and we should talk about it!

quincie, Monday, 22 July 2013 03:19 (ten years ago) link

Oh and I'd say that I veto about 99% of porn out there on the internets; my partner is of like mind. That's why I put "porn" in scarequotes, because the stuff I choose is like nonporny partnersex womanpositvestuff uuuugh I'm gonna STFU now.

quincie, Monday, 22 July 2013 03:22 (ten years ago) link

I almost have the opposite problem. I found my Dad's porn stash pretty early in life, and so sort of grew up with it always rattling round my head, and that was how I got off for most of my teen years. But there was always, well at least later on, a guilt of knowing that I'm not the intended audience for this, I'm not supposed to even like this stuff, a lot of it is really gross but there's some kind of lizard-brain part of me that just won't let it go

idk

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 22 July 2013 03:36 (ten years ago) link

^^^oh I totally did this! Playboy stash = masturbation money, honey :)

quincie, Monday, 22 July 2013 03:38 (ten years ago) link

OK, I totally did that too. I found my Dad's Penthouse's (I remember the one with Vanessa Williams on the cover specifically) and, um, yeah. They were extremely . . . educational. I still remember some of the pictures and forum letters in way more detail then I probably should at this point.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Monday, 22 July 2013 13:40 (ten years ago) link

Sorry I missed this conversation but carl agatha otm, all of y'all otm really. My childhood vice was late night Showtime -- not sure how I feel about that but there it is. There was a brief discussion on the prior ubiquity of pornographic material/images in...everyday places (the home, the workplace) here: http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?showall=true&bookmarkedmessageid=4444941&boardid=77&threadid=91485

it's not directly related to the conversation, but while we're exchanging attitudes and norms about this stuff, I thought it was relevant.

free your spirit pig (La Lechera), Monday, 22 July 2013 14:00 (ten years ago) link

agh sorry that was a 77 link dunno if that was stupid or not
sorry!

free your spirit pig (La Lechera), Monday, 22 July 2013 14:00 (ten years ago) link

also warning: nsfw if your w does not permit the viewing of images with nudity, however educational

free your spirit pig (La Lechera), Monday, 22 July 2013 14:01 (ten years ago) link

I feel oddly neutral about porn. Personally I still sometimes watch it even though I find it less effective than erotic writings, but that's not why. I think it's because I had a partner briefly who didn't want me to have anything private, so he insisted I should tell him everything about y sexual thoughts and feelings. I wasn't allowed to have secrets or keep fantasies to myself; I didn't have a right to them, they were his. I held back because I hit a wall finally, like, No, I'm not asking you for this information, what happens inside my head is MINE.

So if I want a right for myself, I have to extend it to others (unfortunately). It just decisively settled that for me. Then again I haven't been in a relationship of any duration since then, so it's never come up since.

Increasingly though I'm getting really tired of the porn I've found so far, anyway. Really emotionally tired, like I can't even watch it without playing mental Misogyny Bingo.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Monday, 22 July 2013 15:09 (ten years ago) link

So if I want a right for myself, I have to extend it to others (unfortunately).
Not unfortunately, imo! I firmly believe that one's thoughts are one's own and choosing what gets out is part of the experience of living, no? I mean wtf at demanding someone else's thoughts. That's nuts!

This is, however, reminding me of a bf I had in high school who was pretty much the worst person ever (for reasons not detailed here). We used to rent videos at the video store (regular movies) basically every day after school and then watch in his smelly room while his mom was in the kitchen. Eventually maybe a few months after we broke up (finally), I went to that video store with someone else and somehow, I can't really remember how, I discovered that my ex bf was one of their most regular back room customers. It all started to make sense, so I always associate traditional porn discovery with that moment and him, unfortunately.

free your spirit pig (La Lechera), Monday, 22 July 2013 15:49 (ten years ago) link

Does your partner KNOW about your discomfort, and does he/she take that into consideration and is respectful of that?

Yeah, when I have the fortitude to remember my tactful assertiveness Mad Libs sentences and speak up, he is nothing but kind and responsive and respectful. We have pretty different schedules – me normal daytime schedule w/varying end time based on work load, him w/work shifts that end at 1 or 3 a.m. and begin either in the morning or afternoon. This means a lot of overlap when we're not home, so plenty of time/space for us to do our own private things. I would come home sometimes around 4:30, him about to leave for a shift starting at 5, and find him jerking it in front of his compy. So when I asked, 'hey could you please do that earlier in the day, it makes me uncomfortable to come home to that,' he was understanding and made a change.

The other problem is sometimes when he is watching porn in the middle of the night, he'll crash out having left a video on loop, which means I wake up and find video that's very distressing to me, e.g. a bleach blonde lady, double anal. Like, this has happened enough that I know his tastes in porn p well, which really I would have been glad never to know. I feel understanding of 'oh you're about to go to sleep and forget to turn something off' which I do in a legit more volatile way, like leaving a shitty grocery store pizza in the oven all night. But still – !!!!

I want to thank everyone itt for sharing, man! The plurality of viewpoints is good. I feel a lot better just being able to discuss this.

bleach blonde lady, double anal is definitely the porn equivalent of a shitty grocery store pizza! ha

Gregory Bateson is always appropriate (sarahell), Monday, 22 July 2013 19:58 (ten years ago) link

That would make me unhappy, too, Abbs. Like, you can only respect someone's privacy to the extent that they KEEP IT PRIVATE duh.

quincie, Monday, 22 July 2013 19:59 (ten years ago) link

Agree.

free your spirit pig (La Lechera), Monday, 22 July 2013 20:03 (ten years ago) link

Once I talked to him about it it started happening LESS but still every once in a while, and usually around a time when my maudlin ole heart is looking for something to kick itself about.

You gotta tell him straight up that he needs to be 100% discreet or find another way -- this is clearly bothering you a lot! That's just IMO and I'm a v direct person, grain of salt.

free your spirit pig (La Lechera), Monday, 22 July 2013 20:13 (ten years ago) link

" when he is watching porn in the middle of the night, he'll crash out having left a video on loop, which means I wake up and find video that's very distressing to me, e.g. a bleach blonde lady, double anal. Like, this has happened enough that I know his tastes in porn p well"

I think the degree to which this might bother me would also probably have to do with the frequency with which it happened. It if was a once or twice then whatever but if I had a partner who was routinely watching porn in the middle of the night while I was right there in the next room I think it would probably start to bother me quite a lot.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Monday, 22 July 2013 20:13 (ten years ago) link

Well, that seems like the obvious solution. Will do.
xp

"you can only respect someone's privacy to the extent that they KEEP IT PRIVATE duh."

Yeah, this is big.

I mean, is he asking you to, errr, join in because if not this seems kind of hugely disrespectful imo.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Monday, 22 July 2013 20:14 (ten years ago) link

IDK, as much as it makes me feel shitty and bad, it seems like a genuine mistake when he does leave it on (it has happened maybe 6x in the eight months I've lived w/him), and it's not like whatever his porn habits are have interfered with our sex life. Maybe we/he could just move his computer to a room that's outside my morning mole trail.

I don't want to deny anyone their little pleasures, I have def had the thought, "I could never live with someone because there would go my chance to get myself off the way I like and then leave any accoutrements wherever I happen to drop them and go to sleep in peace" (even though I know we've talked about how this isn't necessarily the case irl, which is great). Even the nicest hypothetical boyfriend probably doesn't want to have to remove the vibrator from his side of the bed where I chucked it 5 nights out of 7. But falling asleep with porn on loop when you know your gf will wake up and be upset by it is insensitive? I mean, you DO live together, a person has get shipshape to their partner's satisfaction not because what they were doing is wrong but because they're responsive to their partner.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Monday, 22 July 2013 21:03 (ten years ago) link

^^^

Lawyer... SUAVE... (carl agatha), Monday, 22 July 2013 21:09 (ten years ago) link

Yeah, I totally agree.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Monday, 22 July 2013 21:26 (ten years ago) link

otm

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 23 July 2013 00:14 (ten years ago) link

I think the other ladies have covered all the vitals so: make him turn off the looping function! Sheesh! I would give my husband hell just for that annoyance.

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Tuesday, 23 July 2013 05:57 (ten years ago) link

Even the nicest hypothetical boyfriend probably doesn't want to have to remove the vibrator from his side of the bed where I chucked it

Nor does the nicest female flatmate confronted by similar but in the bathroom (whoops yes. I did this once. Argh)

It is like ganging up on Enya (Trayce), Tuesday, 23 July 2013 06:21 (ten years ago) link

I'm only barely scratching the surface of some femininity ideas in my life rn but I think it's possible that deep down I don't think I deserve to have a sexual nature, or interact with others as if I do, unless I'm performing femininity a certain way? Like that's the entrance requirement to participating in human mating rituals.

Like I said in the dating ish thread, I haven't had to perform much of anything for a while, because outside of work life I pretty much only do things with people who accept me however I am; I don't have to dress up for my friends. But I put on a skirt suit and heels for an interview the other week and I realized I put on a whole schtick with it, one in which I'm a "woman" in a different way. It wasn't unpleasant, it was fun, and I can still walk in heels juuust fine, but I knew it was a temporary role, and it's hard to remember that I did that 5x a week for 10 years and I wonder, did that disempower me a little? I think it made me a little more malleable, not that anyone would ever describe me as docile but I think I lost something.

Still interrogating.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Saturday, 3 August 2013 17:42 (ten years ago) link

i know "it could be way worse" is less than helpful in most situations, but I find it far preferable for my partner to jerk off to porn than to pictures of girls we know on Facebook or w/e! I was dating a guy who def left no doubt that that was his main thing in that arena. Sometimes the former (reg porn watching) makes me uncomfortable if I get too deep into thinking about it, also, but as Laurel said, it's important to extend freedoms to others that you want for yourself, and I definitely don't want my partner obsessing over/comparing himself to any erotic material I happen to see/watch/whatever.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Monday, 5 August 2013 14:10 (ten years ago) link

I'm away visiting friends and family and I've forgotten to pack my next pack of pills (am on the 'off' week at the moment). Well, I packed them, then left behind the thing I packed them in, forgetting they were in it. No way of getting them here as I don't have my prescription with me. Is it a health no-no to miss a month and then go back on them again? Guess I'm going to do it anyway...

ljubljana, Sunday, 11 August 2013 23:10 (ten years ago) link

afaik it's fine to miss as long as you want - the same conditions apply when you restart it as when you first ever took it; you have to be back on it 2 weeks or something (check with yr pharmacist) before it's actually safe to have unprotected sex

just1n3, Monday, 12 August 2013 02:27 (ten years ago) link

yeah - no sex involved right now, just a bit annoyed about the yo-yo on-off thing as it's possibly not ideal hormonally or sumfink, but I don't have much choice!

ljubljana, Monday, 12 August 2013 08:18 (ten years ago) link

You may get a heavy period as a result, tho? I havent been on the pill in forever (smoker, can't), so I forget how it works if you skip for that long.

It is like ganging up on Enya (Trayce), Monday, 12 August 2013 09:24 (ten years ago) link

Speaking of tho, I wish I could find a self-applied BC that I could have as a smoker that wasnt condoms. I tried Implanon and Depo Prov and they sent me into an icky depressed state.

Not that I'm advocating barebacking all the time, esp with new dateboys, but I have to admit I hate the stop n faffle about of condoms :/

It is like ganging up on Enya (Trayce), Monday, 12 August 2013 09:26 (ten years ago) link

xp yes, it probably won't be a pleasant week!

ljubljana, Monday, 12 August 2013 09:57 (ten years ago) link

hey trayce do they have the nuva ring there? i stan for it all the time. i had all the same issues w/ hating condoms and getting depressed on other BCs. it has such a low dose of hormones (because it doesnt have to travel far in your body? that's the explanation i got) that it doesnt affect your mood

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Monday, 12 August 2013 15:52 (ten years ago) link

Yeah ymmv, it did affect my emotional state noticeably the 2nd time I went on it, but I just decided to stop fucking w hormones at that point. Still, def an improvement over orally administered bcp, not affected by vomiting, not affected by antibiotics or oth meds, you can safely take it out for up to 3 hrs (iirc) if you want to remove it for sex or anything else (just don't forget to put it back in).

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Monday, 12 August 2013 16:05 (ten years ago) link

Me too. I had to stop using it for that reason (period migraines, specifically) and I don't regret it even though my period is like a feelings monsoon at this point, but nuva was def the most manageable of the hormonal options (for me).

free your spirit pig (La Lechera), Monday, 12 August 2013 16:09 (ten years ago) link

” feelings monsoon” is perfect

just1n3, Monday, 12 August 2013 16:26 (ten years ago) link

yeah i should have said ymmv. its a good thing to try tho if you have problems with the jacked up hormone based methods.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Monday, 12 August 2013 16:54 (ten years ago) link

i had p severe mood-related side effects from depo provera but stayed on it for like 2 years anyway. i was dumb

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Monday, 12 August 2013 16:55 (ten years ago) link

You know, I don't think I know anybody didn't have side effects from depo.

Lawyer... SUAVE... (carl agatha), Monday, 12 August 2013 17:02 (ten years ago) link

yeah im pretty sure everyone i know who took it had side effects, too.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Monday, 12 August 2013 17:51 (ten years ago) link

I'm fine with it, was on it for 7 years. I'm back on it, in fact, after having my IUD yanked.

kate78, Monday, 12 August 2013 17:53 (ten years ago) link

You're messing up my stats, lady.

Lawyer... SUAVE... (carl agatha), Monday, 12 August 2013 18:17 (ten years ago) link

Oh wait I did have one side effect from dmpa: I didn't get pregnant. Awesome!

kate78, Monday, 12 August 2013 18:23 (ten years ago) link

Not to totally change the subject but I am totally changing the subject...

http://doughnuttales.blogspot.com/2013/08/surviving-tuesday.html?zx=92a3d98a95d4befd

I've been meaning to post this because it is about the perils of being nice. The blog is classified as "adult" but this page is completely SFW.

There are two things that really stood out. First this more or less describes about 20 years of my life:

as young girls we're told that we are, in the words of the old tune “Nobody until somebody loves us”. Therefore, being well-liked an popular is the most important thing in our fragile little worlds I would also submit that this need to be esteemed, well-liked and popular often goes to such an extreme as to make it downright contrary to our own well-being. Rather than this desire for community being a protective instinct, it becomes a self-destructive and manipulative one.

And I also have a story of letting someone stay with me over my instinctive misgivings. I did it in part because I wanted to be nice but also because in my stupid community of laid-back hippies, being the woman who was protective about her space and boundaries was particularly frowned upon and considered very bitchy and uncool and materialistic and selfish. So I ended up letting some complete stranger hippie dude just traveling through town stay at my apartment where I lived alone, and after I let him in and showed him the couch, I got so freaked out I actually got a butcher knife and kept it in bed with me all night and did not sleep. Nothing happened other than he left really early in the morning and stole about 15 CDs from me so I guess everything worked out? Anyway, that was kind of a watershed moment for me as far as that community and my boundaries and my worries about appearing cool went.

Lawyer... SUAVE... (carl agatha), Monday, 12 August 2013 18:33 (ten years ago) link

that is really interesting. and relevant to my life atm tbh

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Monday, 12 August 2013 18:42 (ten years ago) link

If you feel like saying how, I am interested. But obv no pressure and I don't want to pry.

I keep thinking of more examples when women were ignored or shouted down in that community for expressing concerns for their safety or just setting boundaries about their space and it is making me sad because I was often on the side of the dudes, less I lose my status as well-liked and popular. :( Oh well, I'm old and proudly bitchy now and those hippies can fucking bite me.

Lawyer... SUAVE... (carl agatha), Monday, 12 August 2013 18:47 (ten years ago) link

one of the nicest things about getting older for me has been acknowledging to myself that wanting men to think i was cool drove way too much of my behavior in the past, and also the fact that i am too old and tired to care if men think i'm cool anymore. but i think that's related to the nice thing. i will go read that blog post now.

horseshoe, Monday, 12 August 2013 20:52 (ten years ago) link

that is a fantastic blog entry. I have definitely reached a wise-enough age wherein I no longer care if I seem uptight or bitchy.

I have had a few experiences with men crossing the line with me, specifically in clubs...

Incident #1 involved a man caressing my stomach without my permission. I freaked out and screamed at him. His response? To call me an uptight bitch. Even worse, I was with a guy I was dating and HE told me to "relax"

Incident #2 involved a man I was dancing with at a club who decided IT WAS A GREAT IDEA TO CHOKE ME. Again, I got very angry and yelled at him. Once again, my male friends told me I was overreacting.

homosexual II, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 19:43 (ten years ago) link

Grrrr especially at your male friends.

Lawyer... SUAVE... (carl agatha), Wednesday, 14 August 2013 20:00 (ten years ago) link

they justified it to say that if I got too angry they'd be forced to step in and pummel the dude and get into a brawl. what.

homosexual II, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 20:49 (ten years ago) link

oh ffs.

JuliaA, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 21:53 (ten years ago) link

Wow, what the heck.

It is like ganging up on Enya (Trayce), Thursday, 15 August 2013 01:55 (ten years ago) link

wow @ friends who care more about staying inside their comfort zone than your safety, i have had a few myself

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 15 August 2013 21:07 (ten years ago) link

been thinking a lot about being socialized to be nice all the time & the reaction you get if you don't just go along with people. when i think about the number of times random dudes who I am not talking to & don't even know have thought it was totally fine to put their hands on me - like when you're at a bar/club and they can't just walk by, they have to put their arm around your waist to go past you, or they try and do it when you're just standing there minding your own business and not even interacting with them in any way. wtf?!

I'm pretty mellow most of the time but wow, does it tick me off - it doesn't take me long to call out this behavior, but a couple times when some random stranger is persistently doing this i've really wanted to hit them (which i don't believe in, so I don't). i did punch a kid in the face once when i was 13 after he and his cousin kept trying to grab me.. in retaliation they dumped soda all over my good shoes & then my mother screamed at me over the whole thing because obvs it was all my fault for not being nice

so idk, i feel like i am pretty good at standing up for myself when i really need to, but the downside is internalizing this idea that it makes me sort of unlikeable

seriously, THIS GUY (daria-g), Thursday, 15 August 2013 23:51 (ten years ago) link

Hm. I have no problem being not-nice to strangers but make it someone whose unhappiness might cause a real problem for me, and I'm incapable of even asking them to do their own dishes. I am just that afraid of the possible negative response.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Thursday, 15 August 2013 23:53 (ten years ago) link

What the resulting situation is worse? I should just put up with how it is now, you never know, you might regret it.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Thursday, 15 August 2013 23:54 (ten years ago) link

i was JUST washing dishes and thinking about a woman i know who negatively judges me and thinks i am a "loose cannon" because of 2 incidents in which i took no shit from/publically shamed gross dudes. she identifies as a feminist and has a degree in women's studies!

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Friday, 16 August 2013 01:29 (ten years ago) link

publicly! i always misspell that :/

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Friday, 16 August 2013 01:29 (ten years ago) link

i think it is often challenging to stand up for yourself and your boundaries with uber creepola dudes yet not escalate the situation into something where dudes are taking swings at your male companion(s).

not some dude poking a Line 6 pedal with his dick (sarahell), Friday, 16 August 2013 01:33 (ten years ago) link

Ugh I hate the "why are you being such a bitch?" response to APPROPRIATE CALLING OUT/ANGER. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

It is like ganging up on Enya (Trayce), Friday, 16 August 2013 01:34 (ten years ago) link

And I'm shit at being angry at people. I guilt trip myself into last week, every time.

It is like ganging up on Enya (Trayce), Friday, 16 August 2013 01:35 (ten years ago) link

I tend to get confrontational and screamy in those situations - esp. when it's a stranger and I have been drinking

not some dude poking a Line 6 pedal with his dick (sarahell), Friday, 16 August 2013 01:38 (ten years ago) link

you feel like saying how, I am interested. But obv no pressure and I don't want to pry.

I keep thinking of more examples when women were ignored or shouted down in that community for expressing concerns for their safety or just setting boundaries about their space and it is making me sad because I was often on the side of the dudes, less I lose my status as well-liked and popular. :( Oh well, I'm old and proudly bitchy now and those hippies can fucking bite me.

― Lawyer... SUAVE... (carl agatha), Monday, August 12, 2013 2:47 PM (3 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yes, i'd finally like to say more about it: my BF and i run a DIY show space & book tons of shows, hosting lots of band dudes at our house. i always cook huge meals for bands, let them sleep here, make them as comfy as possible, etc. i love doing it, and it's the life for me, but i only enjoy it to the degree that i don't feel it's being expected of me to do these extra things because i'm woman - like Andy is really the accommodating person, and i am just doing regular wife duties for him - almost as if they're an extension of him. it's rare that people show themselves to be holding that view, but it happens. a few times guests have extended thanks to him but not me - even if i booked the show, paid them, fed them, did everything. i don't do that stuff for thanks, but i certainly don't do it to be viewed as a satellite of my boyfriend who doesn't deserve thanks.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Friday, 16 August 2013 01:39 (ten years ago) link

aww shit, I have totally been in your position.

not some dude poking a Line 6 pedal with his dick (sarahell), Friday, 16 August 2013 01:41 (ten years ago) link

and also there have been occasions when i've felt unsafe because of these goings-on in the house, and a select few people have tried to make me feel like i'm being square to worry about my house, pets, self, life, etc. i don't deeply care, and Andy definitely has my back on that. it is VERY frustrating though.

xp

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Friday, 16 August 2013 01:41 (ten years ago) link

the "it's all good" brigade

not some dude poking a Line 6 pedal with his dick (sarahell), Friday, 16 August 2013 01:45 (ten years ago) link

OTM

"just be chill"

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Friday, 16 August 2013 01:49 (ten years ago) link

pro tip/life hack: if u are not

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lwb5tpYbVS1qbrk2to1_500.jpg

do not tell me to be cool, i will not listen 2 u

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Friday, 16 August 2013 01:53 (ten years ago) link

i am sorry but i am not going to chill and let you have a minimal techno dance party until 3am because it is creatively fulfilling 2 u

not some dude poking a Line 6 pedal with his dick (sarahell), Friday, 16 August 2013 01:58 (ten years ago) link

a few times guests have extended thanks to him but not me - even if i booked the show, paid them, fed them, did everything.

Oh I would kill.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Friday, 16 August 2013 01:59 (ten years ago) link

haha see i would let that happen tbh! but i wouldnt let people fight or be aggressive to women or w/e, or break bottles all over my porch, or do something that might hurt somebody. my boundaries are not so out there, so why do ppl act like they are? oh right cause theyre dipshits

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Friday, 16 August 2013 02:01 (ten years ago) link

xpost!

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Friday, 16 August 2013 02:01 (ten years ago) link

Oh that was a case of someone taking advantage and ignoring my polite statements that this needs to be done by 1am

not some dude poking a Line 6 pedal with his dick (sarahell), Friday, 16 August 2013 02:06 (ten years ago) link

And we'd just had official threats of being busted

not some dude poking a Line 6 pedal with his dick (sarahell), Friday, 16 August 2013 02:09 (ten years ago) link

haw, oic! ok can totally id w/ that

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Friday, 16 August 2013 02:09 (ten years ago) link

I tried not to be rockist about it.

not some dude poking a Line 6 pedal with his dick (sarahell), Friday, 16 August 2013 02:11 (ten years ago) link

a few times guests have extended thanks to him but not me - even if i booked the show, paid them, fed them, did everything.

Oh I would kill.

― Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Friday, August 16, 2013 1:59 AM (37 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

omg yes

Lawyer... SUAVE... (carl agatha), Friday, 16 August 2013 02:40 (ten years ago) link

Reminds me of a time I was wearing a Clutch t-shirt in a bar w/Jeff and a dude walked up to us, looked at Jeff, and said, "Clutch is awesome, man!" Jeff was like, "I don't like Clutch, but my girlfriend here does."

Lawyer... SUAVE... (carl agatha), Friday, 16 August 2013 02:42 (ten years ago) link

that is so completely demented

horseshoe, Friday, 16 August 2013 02:44 (ten years ago) link

Seriously!!! I was too flabbergasted to punch him in the dong, unfortunately.

Lawyer... SUAVE... (carl agatha), Friday, 16 August 2013 02:45 (ten years ago) link

maybe he was addressing Jeff so that you wouldn't get the impression he was hitting on you when you were obviously partnered?

not some dude poking a Line 6 pedal with his dick (sarahell), Friday, 16 August 2013 02:47 (ten years ago) link

I'll do the crazy hostess stuff--did I mention that the last time I threw a party and got locked out of the apartment where a bunch of my supplies were, I made myself lock picks out of hairpins off a youtube tutorial and I was trying to pick the lock of the downstairs unit when my roommate got home?--and I don't want to be lavishly praised to my face but I want ppl to know that if they come here, they'll be taken care of. There will always be a clean towel/room/food/pretty things to make them welcome, and they will know that I did that for them. If I can make it look easy, even better! But for SOMEONE ELSE to get the credit, and my work to be taken for granted as my duty to the men bc I have a vagina? There would be a confrontation in my home in zero seconds.

xxxp <3 Jeff <3

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Friday, 16 August 2013 02:47 (ten years ago) link

No, i don't think so. He didn't even look at me or acknowledge me in any way. xp

Lawyer... SUAVE... (carl agatha), Friday, 16 August 2013 02:49 (ten years ago) link

well, that was the one excuse i could come up with for his behavior

not some dude poking a Line 6 pedal with his dick (sarahell), Friday, 16 August 2013 03:00 (ten years ago) link

in the past, i occasionally went to IT meetups for a particular field - professional networking thing + trying to get up to speed on a specific technology - and there were dudes at these events interested in a job at the company i worked for, who would talk to the other dudes near me about the job & the relevant tech skills and this and that, as if i was not even there. and i was the one who worked there and told the group that the company was hiring.

and there's the mansplaining i have to put up with. i have a very difficult time figuring out how to handle it - the types of guys who really enjoy explaining things to people all the time and will take every opportunity to steer the conversation toward explaining something to me that they think i don't know. they are trying to be helpful and just don't get how irritating it is to me because it seems unprofessional to snap at them over it, but i can't help finding it tiresome and demoralizing - the implications of it - it wears on me to be around people whose default assumption is that i don't know things and need explanations and assistance a lot, because i've always been very independent.

seriously, THIS GUY (daria-g), Friday, 16 August 2013 03:37 (ten years ago) link

Like I said, it's rare. I don't want to come off like I'm being a huge doormat on a reg. when it happens I'm so flabbergasted that I say nothing, though. Andy usually says something like "oh, Emily really did everything. You should thank her", which they sometimes do. Haw

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Friday, 16 August 2013 03:52 (ten years ago) link

Everyone OTM. (I liked that Tuesday blog post too.)

I think I posted before about the record shop I went to several times a week, always on my own, to look through a few genre sections, and one time one of the regular staff asked "what happened to that guy you used to come in with, he was really into <genres>, we have some stuff he'd be interested in", and he seemed to have totally imagined a dude that I was tagging along behind because it didn't make any sense to him that I might like music on my own. ???

(Exactly once years before I'd gone there with a guy who mainly looked politely on while I rummaged, and once I saw a vague acquaintance there and exchanged monosyllabic greetings, and that was the full extent of my Being In The Shop With A Man, ever)

Also, yes, tech dudes and their talking like you aren't really there, or ignoring everything you say until they see an opportunity to stride in with a "wellllll, little lady" even though they let it slide when brogrammers say stupid wrong stuff all the time. And if a woman knows something they don't they're just "whatever, details" or "ooh, la-di-da". And to go back to "taking the side of the dudes to keep your status", yeah, there's another woman programmer in my office who totally does all that stuff too, and tbh I've probably done it to her, though I hope less obnoxiously.

Also also next time I hear anything along the lines of "jeez it was just a joke, why can't women take a joke" I may just have to go on a killing spree.

Tuesday blog post = the one carl posted, on Monday and not on a Tuesday, called something like "surviving Tuesdays".

i secretly love when someone underestimates me because it gives me the opportunity to shame them
on rare occasions i do it and but usually i just know that i could if i wanted to and that's enough

no fomo (La Lechera), Friday, 16 August 2013 13:40 (ten years ago) link

i feel like enough people in my lil scene respect me a lot that when some clueless bro tries to shame me i can just smile and know that everyone around us sees him as a huge n00b and idiot. in the past i didn't have that support around me so i'm really thankful for it.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Friday, 16 August 2013 17:28 (ten years ago) link

*a really bitchy smile

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Friday, 16 August 2013 17:30 (ten years ago) link

ok i had to deal with like a million sexist things today and i only left my house once. just exploded on one dude. my jaw is unclenchable atm

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 21 August 2013 02:16 (ten years ago) link

That's so exhausting. I hope you can relax soon.

Lawyer... SUAVE... (carl agatha), Wednesday, 21 August 2013 02:40 (ten years ago) link

~~ nothing sexist about this blunt ~~

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 21 August 2013 03:04 (ten years ago) link

<3

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Wednesday, 21 August 2013 03:19 (ten years ago) link

:D

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 21 August 2013 03:27 (ten years ago) link

A guy I used to run around with (slash kinda maybe have sorta slightly romantic feelings towards?) moved to Texas last year, and he gchats with me a lot.

Last night we were chatting and he informed me that he'd gone on a date with a twenty year old.

I freaked. The fuck. Out.

First off, I asked what he was doing asking 20 year olds out on dates. His response was, "I don't know, she was cute and likes My Bloody Valentine."

My response: "She was cute and likes MBV--what is this, high school?"

Him: "I don't know, girls are different here. It's weird."

Me: "Maybe you should try dating women instead of girls."

I then went on to say that it galls me that a guy I actually liked at one point could be saying such RIDICULOUS things, and that it BUMS ME OUT because it just represents this entire skewing that I am experiencing lately with guys my own age (he's actually technically 2 years older than me, he's 35 and I am 33).

My exact quote: "This just slays me, because you and I are the same age, and I see myself, and I am having so many new and evolving ideas about relationships and what they mean, and then this guy my own age says "she's cute and likes MBV" about some 20 year old waif, it's just a fucking harsh reality about the kind of situation I am facing in the dating pool."

I really went off on a tirade to him, and I was surprised about how ANGRY I was.

I ended it with: "Ask any woman you know, and she'll tell you about the mid thirties music dude they dated when they were 19 - trust me, you don't want to be that guy."

He went silent for about 2 hours, then came back and said: "You're right."

I WAS SHOCKED that he said I was right. Shocked.

And then I realized how awesome it was that I am getting older and wiser. Being a wise-ish woman is great.

homosexual II, Wednesday, 21 August 2013 19:10 (ten years ago) link

You were totally right. Don't be that guy!!

no fomo (La Lechera), Wednesday, 21 August 2013 19:16 (ten years ago) link

this dude sounds really typical ime

not some dude poking a Line 6 pedal with his dick (sarahell), Wednesday, 21 August 2013 19:18 (ten years ago) link

you nailed it. god job telling him.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 21 August 2013 19:18 (ten years ago) link

there are probably ilxors who have been or are "that guy"

not some dude poking a Line 6 pedal with his dick (sarahell), Wednesday, 21 August 2013 19:19 (ten years ago) link

doi

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 21 August 2013 19:20 (ten years ago) link

I'd say 90% are still 'that guy'

homosexual II, Wednesday, 21 August 2013 19:22 (ten years ago) link

This same type of dude claims he dates much younger women because women his own age aren't into music anymore.

Which is the biggest crock of bullshit ever.

homosexual II, Wednesday, 21 August 2013 19:27 (ten years ago) link

i was 23 when i dated the mid 30s dude
he was ok and pretty fun when i saw him, but he was really unreliable and never called me when he said he would
5 days would go by without him returning my calls and he was supposed to be my boyfriend? please.

no fomo (La Lechera), Wednesday, 21 August 2013 19:29 (ten years ago) link

COOTIES ALERT!!!!!!!

not some dude poking a Line 6 pedal with his dick (sarahell), Wednesday, 21 August 2013 19:33 (ten years ago) link

This is extremely triggering for me, as I met my mid thirties music dude when I was 17, and I can't help but have extreme creep vibes for any guy who's 35 who chooses to date someone so young.

homosexual II, Wednesday, 21 August 2013 19:34 (ten years ago) link

I have seen this dynamic for years, and I feel like I have progressed from "these dudes are creepy" (n.b. some of these dudes are friends) to the point where I am trying to non-judgmentally understand their decisions and think of ways that this is somehow ok.

not some dude poking a Line 6 pedal with his dick (sarahell), Wednesday, 21 August 2013 19:38 (ten years ago) link

I dated that guy when he was 23 and I was 15. :|

Lawyer... SUAVE... (carl agatha), Wednesday, 21 August 2013 19:43 (ten years ago) link

i never dated that guy - though i think i went bowling with that guy when i was 20 and he bought me beer and he might have had further intentions but nothing else happened

not some dude poking a Line 6 pedal with his dick (sarahell), Wednesday, 21 August 2013 19:45 (ten years ago) link

there was another one who was 21 and i was 16, but it was not really this situation
it was not good, but it wasn't this

no fomo (La Lechera), Wednesday, 21 August 2013 20:27 (ten years ago) link

I met him when I was 19 and I married that guy so ymmv

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 21 August 2013 22:00 (ten years ago) link

he obv liked you for reasons other than your age/cuteness tho!!

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 21 August 2013 22:05 (ten years ago) link

true. tbf we didn't meet irl for like 5 years so

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 21 August 2013 22:07 (ten years ago) link

I'm dating a late-thirties music dude who pretends to be a mid-thirties music dude and I'm p. sure he'd rather be dating a 20 y-o than me right now. Feel like tattooing a health warning on him somewhere.

you may not like it now but you will (Zora), Wednesday, 21 August 2013 22:08 (ten years ago) link

how would girls learn one of life's valuable lessons without these dudes

veryupsetmom (harbl), Wednesday, 21 August 2013 22:09 (ten years ago) link

The world needs mosquitoes just to teach us there are biting insects in the world? idk...

you may not like it now but you will (Zora), Wednesday, 21 August 2013 22:13 (ten years ago) link

I dated (and slept with!) a 42 year old Beefheart fan dude when I was 21, and completely clueless. Ick, me.

It is like ganging up on Enya (Trayce), Wednesday, 21 August 2013 23:43 (ten years ago) link

And he was a work colleague whats worse.

It is like ganging up on Enya (Trayce), Wednesday, 21 August 2013 23:43 (ten years ago) link

But I dont think its always crepey, as Ive dated p young guys right into my late 30s.

It is like ganging up on Enya (Trayce), Wednesday, 21 August 2013 23:44 (ten years ago) link

I had a 20 year old coworker who had one of her professors interested in her. She thought he was 26 or 28 but we looked him up online and he was 35. I suppose there's more than age differences to make that creepy.

I know another early twentysomething who gets 35 year olds hitting on her but she wants men to buy her stuff, so I don't know.

tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, 21 August 2013 23:59 (ten years ago) link

i mean i dated a 21 year old when i was 30 and i was definitely being creepy

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 22 August 2013 00:12 (ten years ago) link

Ughhh my sister is 21 and dating that guy rn. When she found out I disapproved she had him *block me* on FB preemptively! He's about 40 afaict.

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Thursday, 22 August 2013 00:20 (ten years ago) link

Oh and I did it too, and had the luck of choosing a crackhead 35-year-old. :P

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Thursday, 22 August 2013 00:23 (ten years ago) link

I know this is the grills thread and all and maybe I am the only one who is uncomfortable with the older-dude slamming. . . but I am. I have dated That Dude (two of them, actually), and they were just fine. Just feels to me like we're throwing stereotypes at dudes who we would kick the shit out of for throwing stereotypes at us? I dunno it appears I am officially perimenopausal and I'm to hot and I can't sleep for shit so maybe best to brush off whatever I am saying here.

quincie, Thursday, 22 August 2013 04:23 (ten years ago) link

I have no problems with older dudes

homosexual II, Thursday, 22 August 2013 04:28 (ten years ago) link

Do you have problems with older dudes dating younger women? Honestly not trying to be contrary; just trying to understand the anger.

quincie, Thursday, 22 August 2013 04:35 (ten years ago) link

Nope. I do have problems with men dating far too young for them, though.

homosexual II, Thursday, 22 August 2013 04:39 (ten years ago) link

dating women far too young for them, though, I mean.

homosexual II, Thursday, 22 August 2013 04:39 (ten years ago) link

quincie, read my post on the other thread. I explain it in detail there.

homosexual II, Thursday, 22 August 2013 04:40 (ten years ago) link

"That Dude (two of them, actually), and they were just fine" - then you didn't date That Dude, That Dude is not just fine! He's condescending and treats you as less than a person. We aren't just talking about older dudes in general. It's a specific phenomenon

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 22 August 2013 04:50 (ten years ago) link

i've never really experienced this - i think all the guys i've dated have been between 2-6 yrs older than me. i did however have a one-time thing with a 40+yr old well-known (not famous or anything, just big in the scene) music dude , when i was about 22, who i later found out had a total rep for it in my small city. he was fun and interesting but TERRIBLE in bed, in a really selfish, i'm-cool-and-the-girls-love-me-so-i-don't-need-to-do-anything kind of way.

just1n3, Thursday, 22 August 2013 05:25 (ten years ago) link

Yeah now THAT is more of a ThatDude :)

It is like ganging up on Enya (Trayce), Thursday, 22 August 2013 05:33 (ten years ago) link

i dated a lot of 30 y/os in my late teens/early 20s and some were ok, but 2 in particular were terrible and kinda fucked up my life. i was a smart 20 year old, but not socially, and had a lot of hangups about talking and expressing myself verbally. this led to a lot of tacit acceptance of terrible behavior. and v questionable sex.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 22 August 2013 05:38 (ten years ago) link

key thing I forget is ilxing sometimes needs a measured moment to take in posts, and not respond right away with my personal angle. seeing now that i'm lightyears away from what this is about

i am v interested in this discussion & I am glad homo raised it, sorry for taking so long to ~get it~ :)

as you were

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 22 August 2013 05:54 (ten years ago) link

<3

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 22 August 2013 05:55 (ten years ago) link

i also had terrible boyfriends who were closer to my age, but they never came at the relationship from the same angle as the terrible 30-somethings did. wanting to teach you things about life and art, and becoming resentful of you when you didn't fawn over their teachings or give a shit because you're being 20

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 22 August 2013 05:56 (ten years ago) link

and also not giving a shit because you have no respect for them because you know they are an asshole, because they are condescending to you

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 22 August 2013 05:57 (ten years ago) link

and now thinking about my high school friend who dated 30 year old dudes a lot & no shit even her own mom acted like my friend was so much more ~grown up~ than all of us

it seemed strange then...now? i gotta wonder about those guys.

late teens/20's. guh. bad choice city, even if you think you *know* what you're doing. esp girls i think?

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 22 August 2013 06:00 (ten years ago) link

yeah, and a few people totally have their shit together at 18 and know exactly what they're doing, but for a lot of people of both genders it's a really unstable time in life, for women esp. because you're suddenly dealing with an even stronger torrent of attention from men than before, some of whom have weird predatory/misogynistic notions about you

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 22 August 2013 06:04 (ten years ago) link

I don't have a specific 30s Music Dudes angle but I am feeling pretty hopeless about the whole daeting concept rn being single in my mid-30s for the first time in nearly a decade (and being twice the weight I was last time I was single).

Just a combination of <dudes prefer younger women> + <knowing lots of single 30+ women and NO single 30+ men> (even the ultra-geeky dudes I knew who were permanently single all through their twenties suddenly got married when they hit 30-32) = "so basically, single guys my age are gold dust and can have their pick of anyone my age or younger and will probably opt for younger, and being in the bottom percentile for my age looks-wise* I guess that leaves me with... either nothing, or someone a LOT older, which may leave me suspicious as to why me and why not someone their own age, plus I already feel like I've missed out on many life experiences necessary to relate to people even my own age"

* and on most other metrics, for any "you are saying guys are shallow and that makes you the real sexist, do you see" onlookers (this = my ex, even if not any ILXors)

btw not looking yet because I need to get my head straight about a lot of things first so I acknowledge this post is probably just a big slab of crazy

the supreme personality of Godhead : a summary study (a passing spacecadet), Thursday, 22 August 2013 10:22 (ten years ago) link

haha i think i made a similar post upthread a few years ago when i was freaking out about becoming a potential cougar so ...

not some dude poking a Line 6 pedal with his dick (sarahell), Thursday, 22 August 2013 11:03 (ten years ago) link

I come across a fair few single men closer to my age but theyre often um... single for a reason is the polite way to put it. ANd then theres the divorced dad set, which at my age Im gonna see a lot of, but I just DONT want to get into that, so it cuts my options into pieces. But I dont despair! Still meeting some nice guys at least around my age bracket, I'm happy to drop to 30 yo's without any judgement at all. Maybe it helps I look/act young for my age and dont want kids?

It is like ganging up on Enya (Trayce), Thursday, 22 August 2013 11:27 (ten years ago) link

I dated a guy in his late 30s when I was in my mid-20s and he was not That Guy, either. The age gap was part of why we would never progress beyond a certain point (also he was married (oh, but separated and getting divorced ANY DAY) lol sigh so he was a different kind of That Guy but not the That Guy we're talking about) but not bc he was a condescending jerk trying to teach me about ~life~. He was really cute in a black jeans and leather jacket kind of way and drove a badass muscle car and i never got super involved bc I saw all of the insurmountable issues from the jump, so dating him was actually pretty fun and he's an ex whom I sincerely wish well. That's mostly just to point out again that there's age gaps and there's That Guy.

Also I have mentioned this elsewhere I think but I'm 7 yrs older than Jeff. We started dating when he was 21 and I was 28 (and met online when he was 19 or 20). So not like cougar style and as age gaps are wont to do, it matters less as we get older but if you'd asked me before we met if I would date someone that much younger I would have said probably not.

Lawyer... SUAVE... (carl agatha), Thursday, 22 August 2013 12:17 (ten years ago) link

Also my mom is 7 yrs older than my stepdad, coincidentally.

Lawyer... SUAVE... (carl agatha), Thursday, 22 August 2013 12:18 (ten years ago) link

yeah, everyone otm -- this is not about age, it's age plus -- it's way more specific than anyone (esp on that other thread wtf) ever initially suspected

but yeah, this guy is everywhere and i definitely dated one. 34/23. he played the guitar and had a master's degree in music (a master's!) and thought it was really cute that i liked to read (lol). he was tall/cute and looked like john doe (<3) and iirc was pretty frisky/fun and liked to do fun creative shit like "let's take pictures of strangers at walmart at 1am with this disposable camera i have sitting around and also i need to buy a car battery because my van is dead. again." there's a lot more to the story, but i think those details make it clear. he also did not keep a very clean house, in particular the bed. rarely came over to my place. never let me hang out with his friends. never called me back. but he introduced me to his PARENTS?!

weird guy. we don't talk anymore. he moved away and my relationship with our one mutual friend (who i met through him, oddly) is way more important to me than talking to him is. and i hear now he has a kid. :-/

no fomo (La Lechera), Thursday, 22 August 2013 13:03 (ten years ago) link

anyone except Homo II, of course, who knew exactly what she was saying :)

no fomo (La Lechera), Thursday, 22 August 2013 13:04 (ten years ago) link

(that was to clarify this t's way more specific than anyone (esp on that other thread wtf) ever initially suspected)

no fomo (La Lechera), Thursday, 22 August 2013 13:06 (ten years ago) link

That Guy is very familiar to me, because I had a lot of interaction with That Guy when I was in my late teens slash early 20's. It's pretty confusing, because I look back on one in particular with fondness and affection sometimes, but then anger at others because he was predatory and basically pursued me so he could "teach me about stuff" (music, books, films, and sex)

And he did teach me a lot, I guess. But even after we broke up he'd lament about how I was the best girlfriend he'd ever had (a 17 year old was the best girlfriend you ever had - wow). I just had to wonder what it was at work that made me so desirable to him--even then, I wondered, and I sort of landed to the same conclusions I do now.

homosexual II, Thursday, 22 August 2013 13:36 (ten years ago) link

yeah, even the very terrible ones left artifacts in my life that i don't hate. the bad definitely outweighs the good though, for me. the main gist of my thoughts on the matter, when i look back, revolve around wishing i could go back in time and empower myself to take less shit and speak up about the shitty things that i knew he was doing to my self esteem. oh well, reasons.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 22 August 2013 13:41 (ten years ago) link

xp - yeah, i've had that moment! it's kind of awful but also illuminating. i realized i was a different kind of prize to someone and it was a hella long time ago, but i don't really think being "over it" is entirely possible. i can't even look at my diary from that period.

honestly i wish i would run into this guy (not That Guy) and ask him point blank to his face if he did what i think he did.

no fomo (La Lechera), Thursday, 22 August 2013 13:42 (ten years ago) link

it really is true that when your 18-20 your dating options look grim. boys that age look like complete idiots to you, and then its really crushing when you reach out of that age group and are met with idiots also.

xp - once when i was sightly drunk i passed one of these dudes in the street, walking with a woman, and said loudly to the person i was with, "that guy dated me when i was 19 and treated me like shit" - i don't regret it

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 22 August 2013 13:44 (ten years ago) link

ok, *you're. no coffee yet.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 22 August 2013 13:44 (ten years ago) link

boys that age wouldn't give me the time of day either

omg roxy you are my hero

no fomo (La Lechera), Thursday, 22 August 2013 13:44 (ten years ago) link

this movie wasnt great but it is about That Guy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwnD-1A80Ts

homosexual II, Thursday, 22 August 2013 13:45 (ten years ago) link

the trailer makes it look quaint but it does make That Guy look pretty shady.

homosexual II, Thursday, 22 August 2013 13:46 (ten years ago) link

shopgirl also deals with this but i think it makes That Guy look....decent? i don't really remember. when i read it wanted to kill him tho.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 22 August 2013 13:49 (ten years ago) link

god i love jean smart

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 22 August 2013 13:49 (ten years ago) link

i wanted to weep when i found out what shopgirl was about
approval rating for steve martin (which was quite high) plummeted in seconds

no fomo (La Lechera), Thursday, 22 August 2013 13:51 (ten years ago) link

Wow, I totally forgot the time I had a 30 year old (in a band!!) interested in me when I was 19.

tokyo rosemary, Thursday, 22 August 2013 15:55 (ten years ago) link

He was also my step-step-brother's second cousin.

tokyo rosemary, Thursday, 22 August 2013 15:56 (ten years ago) link

omg that trailer for guinivere was so gross
but yes, jean smart rules

i also loled at the write up! !!! !! !

Screen favorite Stephen Rea (Michael Collins, The Crying Game) stars in this sexy, humorous story about a young woman's discovery of life and love in the arms of an older man! Born into an affluent family of overachievers, awkward young Harper Sloane (Sarah Polley, eXistenZ, Go!) was always the odd one out...until a brilliant phtographer, Connie Fitzpatrick (Rea), focuses his attention on her! Now, he's about to show her a world of possibilities she'd never imagined! But even as Connie begins to guide Harper out of her shell, it's ultimately up to Harper alone to show her disapproving mother...and the whole world...her true potential! Also featuring Gina Gershon (The Insider, Face Off) you'll be charmed by the acclaimed performances in this warm, award-winning motion picture.

her true potential!!

discovered!

by a man!

!

no fomo (La Lechera), Thursday, 22 August 2013 19:29 (ten years ago) link

i also love sarah polley so i don't think i can ever see any more of this movie than the part i just saw

no fomo (La Lechera), Thursday, 22 August 2013 19:30 (ten years ago) link

also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_(mythology)

no fomo (La Lechera), Thursday, 22 August 2013 19:44 (ten years ago) link

spoiler: she figures out that the "brilliant photographer" is That Guy

homosexual II, Thursday, 22 August 2013 20:21 (ten years ago) link

that's good
i also will admit that i bonus hate these stories because no one ever tried to get me to "reveal my potential" unless b00bz = "potential"

no fomo (La Lechera), Thursday, 22 August 2013 20:37 (ten years ago) link

lol LL

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 22 August 2013 20:40 (ten years ago) link

hahaha oh dear

Lawyer... SUAVE... (carl agatha), Thursday, 22 August 2013 21:03 (ten years ago) link

maximising our potential itt imo

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 22 August 2013 22:14 (ten years ago) link

it's time to leverage our potential by opening the kimono

no fomo (La Lechera), Thursday, 22 August 2013 22:18 (ten years ago) link

TA-DAAAAAAAAAAA

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 22 August 2013 22:20 (ten years ago) link

lol u guys

horseshoe, Thursday, 22 August 2013 22:27 (ten years ago) link

btw it's high time someone said something about homo 2's high handed Puritanism. so glad that was addressed.

horseshoe, Thursday, 22 August 2013 22:28 (ten years ago) link

I remember when I learned what a glory hole was. Thanking u Sister HomoII.

quincie, Thursday, 22 August 2013 22:30 (ten years ago) link

lol @ everything

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 22 August 2013 23:12 (ten years ago) link

that made me laugh! (the puritanical thing)

homosexual II, Thursday, 22 August 2013 23:36 (ten years ago) link

does anyone here experience terrible pain in all joints when period is nigh?

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Sunday, 25 August 2013 17:29 (ten years ago) link

big dull aches for me

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Sunday, 25 August 2013 18:36 (ten years ago) link

Not all joints but my hips and knees would sometimes get worse (I've got screwy knees already). I think it's estrogen related? If it's bad and you have access to medical care, it might be good to see a doc and rule out any inflammatory joint things.

Lawyer... SUAVE... (carl agatha), Sunday, 25 August 2013 18:43 (ten years ago) link

Yes, sort of: my hands and wrists go all funny on Day One and then it clears after the second day.

aldi young dudes (suzy), Sunday, 25 August 2013 20:27 (ten years ago) link

My ankles, knees, hips, and wrists (sometimes back, too) have throbbing, terrible pains on the day before and day 1. A nurse friend told me that since its bilateral its likely rheumatoid arthritis, and the plummeting estrogen during my period means that my pain tolerance decreases, so that's the only time I feel it. :/

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Sunday, 25 August 2013 23:10 (ten years ago) link

the plummeting estrogen during my period means that my pain tolerance decreases

oh hey, I think this may explain something I hadn't actually noticed was related. thank you roxy and nurse friend! uh sorry about your pain and possible arthritis though.

wait does that mean that estrogen makes us tolerant of pain/tuff?

no fomo (La Lechera), Monday, 26 August 2013 00:26 (ten years ago) link

iirc it's changes in oestrogen levels that make us less tolerant of pain, rather than presence or absence per se

yeah i think that's true

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Monday, 26 August 2013 01:22 (ten years ago) link

OH man yes I get major joint and back pain, and also sometimes cold and flu symptoms! :(

It is like ganging up on Enya (Trayce), Monday, 26 August 2013 01:31 (ten years ago) link

I figure its cause ive caned my liver so hard, my hormones are screwed up.

It is like ganging up on Enya (Trayce), Monday, 26 August 2013 01:32 (ten years ago) link

nah, I put my liver through hell, and I have so few symptoms of PMS that it's almost always a total surprise when i start bleeding

not some dude poking a Line 6 pedal with his dick (sarahell), Monday, 26 August 2013 01:34 (ten years ago) link

My estrogen droppage leads to abdominal/back pain and migraines; I now take low-dose estrogen during the droppage period to help with that. Still present are the need to eat everything that is not rapidly running away from me during the week before my period, and the diarrhea for 1 day (which my gyn says is a progesterone affect, and was apologetic that she couldn't offer anything to help with that).

quincie, Monday, 26 August 2013 01:36 (ten years ago) link

Also for ladies who are not pregnant or wanting to become so, I have found it super-helpful to have a gyn who does not do OB; these docs are all over the birth control/period management/menopausal stuff, without any babby distractions--they get to focus entirely on non-preggos and their problemos.

quincie, Monday, 26 August 2013 01:38 (ten years ago) link

no joint pain that I've noticed. I get major boob pain, like to the point where it hurts to walk around and I feel like I want to just collapse at the waist...and this year in particular my fking cramps and mood swings have been off the chain. Period itself is over and done in 3 days but fuuccck me the leadup is like, FUCK OFF.

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 26 August 2013 01:39 (ten years ago) link

Yeah my boobs hurt enough that I can't lie on my stomach to sleep :(

quincie, Monday, 26 August 2013 01:40 (ten years ago) link

it's like living on the street where they hold the Rose Bowl Parade and hating football

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 26 August 2013 01:42 (ten years ago) link

I was needlessly cryptic upthread so yeah, I get back/shoulder pain days 1-2 and sometimes the day or two before and just generally feel stiff and achey all over, like it's hard work holding my body up straight.

I think. I haven't had a period since I came off the pill 2-3 months ago. Apparently this happens? But I do feel like my hormone levels are currently all over the place, and my previous post was me realising maybe that is why my foot problems have seemed to be getting worse lately.

i used to have no symptoms at all except about an hour of light cramping, then 2 days of bleeding. this gradually got worse until now, when i basically have one day a month that i can only lay flat on the couch with a heating pad on my abdomen and ice on my joints. still have a really short period, though. one of my older friends sad "it just gets worse and worse as you get older" - i'm sure that's not everyone's experience (obv) but i can't imagine the joint thing getting worse and i do not want to believe!

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Monday, 26 August 2013 11:17 (ten years ago) link

Get checked out for fibroids, maybe? That's definitely part of the problem with me - my doc says they exacerbate any discomfort, particularly as we age.

aldi young dudes (suzy), Monday, 26 August 2013 11:55 (ten years ago) link

Hmm, sometimes I get joint/body aches, haven't noticed if it was PMS related. I am always hungry, farty, sweaty, and sore-boobed.

My period lasts 7/8 days but I feel like the cramps haven't gotten worse over the years.

tokyo rosemary, Monday, 26 August 2013 12:45 (ten years ago) link

My period has become increasingly terrible over the past year, to the point where I now go through 36 super plus tampons in less than 2 days, I have to miss work, I get horrible fatigue. Get this checked out, ladies, because I found out I have Hashimoto's Thyroiditis, which was contributing to the heavy periods. Also, bonus: fibroids and polyps. I also have low estrogen and low progesterone. Basically, I am a wreck. I am strictly gluten-free, dairy free, and I feel a lot better and my period was a lot lighter this last cycle.

homosexual II, Monday, 26 August 2013 16:36 (ten years ago) link

36 in 2 days! that sucks

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 26 August 2013 17:02 (ten years ago) link

wow, suzy and h2, you've convinced me to go to the doc. i've wondered if fibroids might be a factor.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Monday, 26 August 2013 17:40 (ten years ago) link

I have 6 fibroids! I am trying to decide on names for them.

quincie, Monday, 26 August 2013 17:45 (ten years ago) link

not "the duggars" !!

i wonder if i have a fibroid -- sometimes i get this really sharp pain in my ovary area before my period but i have never had it checked out

no fomo (La Lechera), Monday, 26 August 2013 17:49 (ten years ago) link

I am having a hysteroscopy in two days to scrape out polyps and fibroids. Super stoked. No, really. I cannot wait for this fucking period to ease up.

homosexual II, Monday, 26 August 2013 17:59 (ten years ago) link

no kidding -- that sounds brutal and deeply unfun, like every waking moment stress 1x a month
good luck at the doc!

no fomo (La Lechera), Monday, 26 August 2013 18:00 (ten years ago) link

All women should get their thyroids checked. I had thyroid cancer in 2000 and that has made me super aware of thyroids and necks. Told two of my friends years ago I thought they should get their thyroids checked but they thought I was just all about thyroids and they were fine. I just noticed necks getting thicker, hair getting thinner, they'd complain about periods being heavier, being weird.... Finally they were checked at a health fair and one had Graves the other Hashimotos. My friend with Graves lost weight suddenly after a bad break up but it just looked odd to me, not the usual lack of appetite due to sadness. My friend with Hashimotos had years of bull shit trying to see why her periods were so heavy and painful and always got the run around, told it was probably cysts, given birth control pills....

I went gluten free despite never having had a thyroid disease, the two go hand and hand. Had a terrible stomach ache for 10 hours and it felt like I swallowed jalapenos. It burned and radiated. Went to see a doctor that day and did all these tests, asked for a Celiac test, just out of the blue, and I tested positive.Being gluten free has made a huge difference in everything.

*tera, Monday, 26 August 2013 18:01 (ten years ago) link

yeah, I second what Tera is saying - both me and my sister have Hashi's, and now I am reading about how like 40% of people with Thyroid probs are undiagnosed. Even if your TSH is normal, you can still have problems. My TSH was 3.4 (technically "normal" according to some labs), but my thyroid antibodies are sky high!

homosexual II, Monday, 26 August 2013 18:08 (ten years ago) link

i got a baseline test done a few years ago just so there would be something to compare to should anything go awry. i'll make the appt but i have no idea what to ask for. what tests should i ask for when i go to the doc?

no fomo (La Lechera), Monday, 26 August 2013 18:09 (ten years ago) link

Thyroid antibodies
Free T4
Free T3
Reverse T3

That should do it.

Also I think most women should get a full hormone panel. Free Testosterone, Total Testosterone, Estrogen and Progesterone tested on Day 21.

homosexual II, Monday, 26 August 2013 18:11 (ten years ago) link

ok thanks! seriously.

no fomo (La Lechera), Monday, 26 August 2013 18:11 (ten years ago) link

ALSO if you can, Cortisol and DHEA. I know this is a crazy amount of testing. I ended up seeing a hormone specialist who doesn't take insurance because I was tired of jumping from doc to doc. This new woman I am seeing is incredible. Every visit I have with her is like two hours.

homosexual II, Monday, 26 August 2013 18:12 (ten years ago) link

omg
what a nightmare
i am really bad at going to the doctor
thanks for the tips!

no fomo (La Lechera), Monday, 26 August 2013 18:13 (ten years ago) link

Basically for the past six months every doctor has dismissed my problems. A Gynecologist dismissed my heavy periods by telling me it was just because I am overweight. All she could offer me was a birth control pill. Then my primary doctor just told me I was anemic and nothing else was wrong with my labs. Still, though, I had horrible fatigue, hair loss, extremely heavy periods, difficulty losing weight. Then I went to an endocrinologist specializing in reproductive medicine and she told me my thyroid labs were normal and that I didn't have PCOS because I didn't resemble a typical PCOS patient.

So now I went to this new woman, and yeah, I have a thyroid problem and I also have PCOS and it was because no one was doing the heavy labwork to really uncover it.

homosexual II, Monday, 26 August 2013 18:15 (ten years ago) link

Wow! That is all exactly what my friend was told!

*tera, Monday, 26 August 2013 22:21 (ten years ago) link

Ive had tests for thyroid stuff, pcos, fybroids, all those things that case this shit and nerp, I have none of it. I'm just cursed with a broken body for no reason. YAY :(

It is like ganging up on Enya (Trayce), Tuesday, 27 August 2013 00:54 (ten years ago) link

what are your symptoms trayce?

homosexual II, Tuesday, 27 August 2013 01:45 (ten years ago) link

Flulike symptoms and cramps up to a full week before my period... really painful cramping for about 2-3 days during, sometimes insanely bad PMS mood issues as well (uncontrollable anger mostly, ugh). Sometimes I even cramp quite badly mid-cycle. I'm not on any BC at all, dunno if that does or doesnt help. I mean its good I dont have pcos or anything, but a little frustrating :)I've always just chalked it all up to not treating my health too well.

It is like ganging up on Enya (Trayce), Tuesday, 27 August 2013 03:29 (ten years ago) link

I mean I even get an actual fever and sore throat 1-3 days before my period, how the hell does that work!?

It is like ganging up on Enya (Trayce), Tuesday, 27 August 2013 03:30 (ten years ago) link

sounds like low progesterone to me.

homosexual II, Tuesday, 27 August 2013 03:32 (ten years ago) link

I've also had mysterious flu-like symptoms off and on for years. My sister and I both have. Sometimes I'll just feel like crap for no reason, and I'll go home from work but then feel fine a few hours later. Now I am wondering if it was when antibodies were attacking my thyroid.

homosexual II, Tuesday, 27 August 2013 03:55 (ten years ago) link

Hmm I'll look into that further, thanks!

It is like ganging up on Enya (Trayce), Tuesday, 27 August 2013 04:52 (ten years ago) link

I had horrible fatigue, hair loss, extremely heavy periods, difficulty losing weight.

this is me

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 27 August 2013 15:10 (ten years ago) link

well, I don't want to make you bummed out, but if you have rheumatoid arthritis symptoms (that's an autoimmune disorder), it's very likely you may have another (like a thyroid problem). Definitely get it checked out!

Unfortunately, we all have to be a little pushy to get the care we want. Your standard GP will only test for TSH (thyroid stimulating hormone), and call it a day if it's in the normal range. Really, though, to get the complete picture you need to look at symptoms and the labs, not just labs only--and more than just TSH. Ideally, you need all the ones I listed above to see what's going on.

I finally looked into this seriously because I had a vaginal ultrasound in July on Day 27 of my cycle and I had not yet ovulated (the doctor called out the fact that she could see the egg hangin' out in my ovary still). Two days later my period started. Sooo, I had definite confirmation that I hadn't ovulated at all. I knew that wasn't really a very good thing for someone 33 to be experiencing.

homosexual II, Tuesday, 27 August 2013 16:39 (ten years ago) link

Quick aside: two good cartoons re street harassment that I've been shown or stumbled across recently!

http://the-toast.net/2013/08/21/suggestions-for-street-harassment/

http://toastcdn.manderleyllc.netdna-cdn.com/okay/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/punished.jpg

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Tuesday, 27 August 2013 22:44 (ten years ago) link

I'm just going to link to this one, after seeing how small the previous img is. http://www.ihollaback.org/resources/street-harassment-etiquette/

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Tuesday, 27 August 2013 22:46 (ten years ago) link

I love that Toast comic so much.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 27 August 2013 22:58 (ten years ago) link

I knooooooooow! "They look really practical but also stylish!" ftw.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Tuesday, 27 August 2013 23:03 (ten years ago) link

OMG there's a link in the comments of the Toast comic to someone's FB where theres one of ThoseGuys that there ALWAYS FREAKING IS who has to pull the "but not all men are like thaaaaaaaaaaaat" whine.

Jam a fedora up it, ya knob.

It is like ganging up on Enya (Trayce), Tuesday, 27 August 2013 23:14 (ten years ago) link

Ergh my grammar was all over the place there but you get the idea.

It is like ganging up on Enya (Trayce), Tuesday, 27 August 2013 23:14 (ten years ago) link

haha yes I know exactly what you're saying. The universal language of Fedora Guys.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 27 August 2013 23:20 (ten years ago) link

I don't even know what Pretty Pretty Princess is, fyi.

It's one of those "Huh, I am getting pretty old..." things where the kids I follow on Twitter reference cultural touchstones that I've never even heard of.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 27 August 2013 23:24 (ten years ago) link

Actually I didn't know who Lisa Frank was until I looked her up a few months ago because somebody kept referencing her on a blog I read.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 27 August 2013 23:25 (ten years ago) link

was it the 'lisa frankfurt school' tumblr because that is the best thing (i don't really know what lisa frank is either, but i think that's a nationality and not an age thing)

Yeah I only know who she is now cos of ILX haha.

It is like ganging up on Enya (Trayce), Tuesday, 27 August 2013 23:30 (ten years ago) link

No, it was some person's individual fashion blog. I actually get annoyed at the blog a lot because this person dresses like she's 13 and is in her 30s (and takes a lot of her style cues from Lisa Frank art), but she has a really good weekly link roundup that is worth sticking around for and I am trying to be less judgmental about adult women who want to dress like Rainbow Brite.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 27 August 2013 23:46 (ten years ago) link

my dream is that there would be a thread/forum on the internet exactly like ilx's rolling metal thread, with one difference: women post on it.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 3 September 2013 02:22 (ten years ago) link

Lisa Frank lives in Tucson – I was talking to someone yesterday who grew up here & spent her childhood thinking Lisa Frank was just a Tucson phenomenon. "She taught me that you can paint without using any black," she said. I had spent the previous night looking at a Goya book and thought – no black, how awful! I know they're not even at all the same kind of art. I didn't even like Lisa Frank as a little girl; I was just the right age that eventually SOMEONE gave you a bunch of Lisa Frank swag, and you had to put all those goddamn stickers on SOMETHING.

even the beatles had a coinstar machine in their living room (Crabbits), Sunday, 8 September 2013 19:08 (ten years ago) link

What's going on re: this thread? "My feminist whatever" stuff just makes me so sad, mad, etc., I quit even thinking about it, or reading, even though it is very important to me. But it still comes up like some Whac-A-Mole game. I had a dangerous near-miss with a strange man recently, and I don't really want to discuss it, but it made me so mad, like apoplectic, "this would not happen to a guy." I feel like the police can't/won't help you on this stuff. I got it all out by cleaning my house VERY QUICKLY; it made me feel Mormon. Everything loops back on itself.

even the beatles had a coinstar machine in their living room (Crabbits), Sunday, 8 September 2013 19:27 (ten years ago) link

I'm sorry abbs.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Sunday, 8 September 2013 21:02 (ten years ago) link

We support u. Many <3s

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Sunday, 8 September 2013 21:09 (ten years ago) link

It's hard when you are too aware of how profound the rifts in the world are. You can't fix them but you can make them recede a little, all that dancing over the abyss stuff.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Sunday, 8 September 2013 21:10 (ten years ago) link

But man, the micro-aggressions will really get you.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Sunday, 8 September 2013 21:12 (ten years ago) link

more <3 to you from me too, Crabbits

It's hard when you are too aware of how profound the rifts in the world are

yes!! and this (plus my one good but occasional lunch companion at work) = the only place I can find anyone else who even seems to SEE them and not go "nobody else has ever mentioned noticing any of these so-called rifts, you are just whining, did you ever stop to think how whining makes YOU the rift" etc forever and boy does it drive me mad. but, dance, recede, that is a thing to work on I guess.

the supreme personality of Godhead : a summary study (a passing spacecadet), Sunday, 8 September 2013 22:59 (ten years ago) link

that "man who wakes up with temporary amnesia after surgery and tells someone he thinks is a complete stranger that she's hot but in actuality it's his wife" viral video on facebook yesterday is sooooo fake.

homosexual II, Wednesday, 11 September 2013 16:31 (ten years ago) link

yeah definitely. but i really really really wanted to believe it

"Max's Original Starship" Vol. 3 (sunny successor), Wednesday, 11 September 2013 16:53 (ten years ago) link

rescreening this thread. god, gbx posted on it like 50 times, how annoying

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 11 September 2013 17:45 (ten years ago) link

let's talk about how great the dirty dancing soundtrack is.

omg I have been listening to "hungry eyes" like 10x in a row for like five days straight.

homosexual II, Wednesday, 11 September 2013 19:47 (ten years ago) link

my sister and i were talking about how when we were little we thought all the songs on that were from the same era, somehow

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 11 September 2013 19:48 (ten years ago) link

ha i had it as a kid and dragged my mom and my friend and her mom to the dirty dancing TOUR that summer
i'm neither proud nor ashamed of this, it just was something that happened

it would be hard to choose between la bamba sdtk and dirty dancing sdtk

no fomo (La Lechera), Wednesday, 11 September 2013 19:51 (ten years ago) link

i love DD soundtrack so much

I WANT TO KNOOOOOHOOOOOOOW
WHERE ARE YOU TOOOONIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 11 September 2013 19:52 (ten years ago) link

la bamba soundtrack omg yes

though that reminds me of literally crying in my bed for a week after I saw the movie (i was really bummed that Lou Diamond Philips died lol) so it's still tinged with a little bit of bummertown usa

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 11 September 2013 19:53 (ten years ago) link

<3 ldp

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 11 September 2013 19:57 (ten years ago) link

rip

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 11 September 2013 19:58 (ten years ago) link

brother bob was my favorite
<3 <3 <3

no fomo (La Lechera), Wednesday, 11 September 2013 20:02 (ten years ago) link

I haaaaaaaaaaaaaated Dirty Dancing when it first came out. My best friend made me watch it with her like ten times and every time was like torture. This makes me want to reconsider, however:

http://www.xojane.com/entertainment/dirty-dancing-is-a-subversive-masterpiece-and-here-are-four-reasons-why

It's entirely possible I hated the movie due to being a curmudgeonly, contrary child and not on the actual merits.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 11 September 2013 20:14 (ten years ago) link

who wouldn't want to crawl around on the floor with and/or do the lift with and/or invade the dance space of patrick swayze?! he was such a hunk.

no fomo (La Lechera), Wednesday, 11 September 2013 20:22 (ten years ago) link

I only have seen Dirty Dancing a few times, and I haven't seen it as an adult, EVER.

homosexual II, Wednesday, 11 September 2013 21:03 (ten years ago) link

Saw it a few months ago and it still catapults me back to being in high school again, feelings and all. My best friend and I skipped out of school for an entire day just so we could watch the film over and over. That was the secret soundtrack of my 20's.

Watched La Bamba a few months ago as well and yeah, brother Bob...totally! how did I miss that as a teen? Ha!

*tera, Wednesday, 11 September 2013 22:44 (ten years ago) link

Oh, and I completely blame that cassette for having a huge influence on guys I dated and slept with because I thought they sort of looked like Patrick Swayze. I'd always have it playing while getting ready to go out.

*tera, Wednesday, 11 September 2013 22:47 (ten years ago) link

the sister's talent show rehearsal is worth the entire movie imo

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 11 September 2013 22:58 (ten years ago) link

^^YES, it is THE best

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 11 September 2013 23:10 (ten years ago) link

A movie starring Jerry Orbach and Kelly Bishop set in the Catskills in the 60s sounds like something I would looooooove but I never was a Dirty Dancing fan.

tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, 11 September 2013 23:30 (ten years ago) link

jennifer grey makes jerry orbach CRY

we are talking cinematic gold here

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 11 September 2013 23:42 (ten years ago) link

did yall hear that the topless feminist group we discussed WAYYYY upthread turned out to be run by a dude?

no boys allowed in the room!!!!

i got my thyroid checked today thanks to this thread and the advice of homoII and others. i'm waiting on my labs to come back. i'm concerned though because after hearing about all my symptoms the doctor was like "is there a history of lupus in your family?"

:/

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 18 September 2013 17:04 (ten years ago) link

that link is to where we talked about the FEMEN group, sorry if that was unclear

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 18 September 2013 17:05 (ten years ago) link

They thought my grandmother had lupus too but it turned out to be thyroid.

I went to get a well woman check finally after all the talk about periods. Mine have been weird this year. Since I was 2,5 until I got pregnant, I was an always reliable 28 days. Post pregnancy...got my period four weeks after delivery despite breastfeeding. My periods then went from 28 to 36 days and have been on a steady decline, now at 27 days. My big question for my gyn was if pregnancy made me pre-menopausal if not menopausal.

*tera, Thursday, 19 September 2013 05:56 (ten years ago) link

What did the doc say?

My periods had been on a steady decline prior to getting pregnant (at 40, like you iirc) so I'm wondering what I'm in for.

carl agatha, Thursday, 19 September 2013 12:17 (ten years ago) link

since I've been on thyroid meds and eating an autoimmune diet, my hair shedding has drastically reduced to like... normalish. For my entire adulthood I've always lost GOBS of hair a day, sometimes it gets up to frightening levels. So this is really a relief.

homosexual II, Thursday, 19 September 2013 14:51 (ten years ago) link

yeah i've been essentially balding for like 3 years, so im really looking forward to quelling that if possible

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 19 September 2013 15:25 (ten years ago) link

also, this doc told me that they were going to email my results?! i find that really weird. they had me sign a thing saying that it was ok to do so. is that normal? tbh i haven't seen a GP since the dawn of the information age

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 19 September 2013 15:26 (ten years ago) link

The practice where my OB is has some kind of secure hospital-specific email communication system. I get lab results that way, but they also call and tell me if something is abnormal since they are really just sending me raw data. My doc sent me a message last week that I replied to and she was so happy to know that the whole thing actually worked. She said I was the only person who had ever replied to any messages.

carl agatha, Thursday, 19 September 2013 15:34 (ten years ago) link

Roxy, do you know what labs they're doing?

homosexual II, Thursday, 19 September 2013 16:41 (ten years ago) link

im not 100% certain but i went in there specifically to be tested for thyroid stuff. i know theyre doing several tests related to that. and som kind of lupus panel

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 19 September 2013 17:27 (ten years ago) link

*some.

i know there was specific stuff i should have asked for, but i figured if nothing comes up with these then i'll go hard on 'em

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 19 September 2013 17:28 (ten years ago) link

Hair loss is a pretty classic symptom on hypothyroidism

kate78, Thursday, 19 September 2013 18:56 (ten years ago) link

i have an appt to get bloodwork done too
i think it's in a couple of weeks
kinda scared about it, but i guess it's better to get it taken care of than not to

special beet service (La Lechera), Thursday, 19 September 2013 19:15 (ten years ago) link

Roxy, if you want to talk about your results with me once they come back, you can chat me on facebook

I also have suffered from hair loss/thinning since I was 19, so I know allllllllllllll about that.

homosexual II, Thursday, 19 September 2013 20:03 (ten years ago) link

i totally will. thank you!!

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 19 September 2013 20:06 (ten years ago) link

what exactly is the treatment/cure for thyroid problems?

not some dude poking a Line 6 pedal with his dick (sarahell), Thursday, 19 September 2013 20:07 (ten years ago) link

i dont know if i posted about this here but i just found out that one of my sisters was diagnosed with hypothyroidism. she said they gave her medication for it, but that the medication made her feel like she was having a heart attack all the time. very much in the style of my family, she never went back to the doc and just stopped taking the meds. :/ i won't do that

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 19 September 2013 20:11 (ten years ago) link

You have to start slow on a low dose and gradually go up. No wonder she felt bad! It probably made her hyperthyroid. I'm only on 32mg of nature thyroid and I have no side effects except now I don't feel like taking naps as often

homosexual II, Thursday, 19 September 2013 20:17 (ten years ago) link

She really should take the meds. Long term hypothyroid leads to really nasty, sometimes fatal complications

homosexual II, Thursday, 19 September 2013 20:18 (ten years ago) link

I was supposed to go get my thyroid checked almost a year ago, after my sister's huge health breakdown (thyroid was one of many problems) but I never did bc I hate doctors. I really should bc having energy to do stuff is a totally alien concept to me, has been for most of my life, but the last year has been a downhill slide. It's causing a side effect of building anxiety bc I feel like my days are slipping by and I'm getting v little done, even at the most basic level

just1n3, Thursday, 19 September 2013 21:17 (ten years ago) link

it makes me wonder how much hair loss is normal?

not some dude poking a Line 6 pedal with his dick (sarahell), Thursday, 19 September 2013 21:31 (ten years ago) link

i wish i knew bc i am reaching a near crisis point over here

special beet service (La Lechera), Thursday, 19 September 2013 21:35 (ten years ago) link

i feel like i shed hair a lot, but it keeps growing back -- it's not thinning in any way, but it does make vacuuming suck

not some dude poking a Line 6 pedal with his dick (sarahell), Thursday, 19 September 2013 21:37 (ten years ago) link

My friend noticed severely thinning hair near the front of her scalp and it turned out she had too much testosterone and they put her on a high estrogen bc pill

just1n3, Thursday, 19 September 2013 22:07 (ten years ago) link

My testosterone isn't high at all, in fact it's very, very low. It's normal to shed about 50-100 hairs a day. I'd say at my worst point I was probably going up to 500 or so. When I combed it, it'd come out endlessly. And anytime I'd TOUCH my hair 5-10 hairs would just attach to my fingers. And at night I'd notice like 20-30 hairs just lounging on my pillow. It's really stressful.

homosexual II, Thursday, 19 September 2013 22:12 (ten years ago) link

I think hair troubles are a result of oxidative stress. Not emotional or psychological stress, but stress on the body.

homosexual II, Thursday, 19 September 2013 22:17 (ten years ago) link

what exactly is the treatment/cure for thyroid problems?
If hypothyroidism is the problem (not enough of the thyroid hormones are being produced), you take a pill every day. You will need to have your blood checked a few times a year, to make sure you're not getting too much or too little of the synthetic hormone.

kate78, Thursday, 19 September 2013 22:48 (ten years ago) link

the reason women seem to suffer more often from thyroid probs is because estrogen is a thyroid hormone antagonist.

homosexual II, Thursday, 19 September 2013 23:07 (ten years ago) link

Think i'm supposed to go get my thyroid tested because I have a patch of discolouration on the skin near my cheekbone. Is this a symptom of anything? It's been there for years, should be a typical side effect of BC pill.

kinder, Friday, 20 September 2013 12:18 (ten years ago) link

That's melanasma, it's typically from high estrogen. I have it too, on my cheek. But I am not even on BC.

homosexual II, Friday, 20 September 2013 15:18 (ten years ago) link

That really doesn't have much to do with thyroid, though.

homosexual II, Friday, 20 September 2013 15:18 (ten years ago) link

hm I think I meant 'could' not 'should' be a typical side effect there.
bodies r weird

kinder, Friday, 20 September 2013 16:25 (ten years ago) link

I could also be sun damage or, like, anything else. Get it checked.

kate78, Friday, 20 September 2013 16:31 (ten years ago) link

I'm extremely pale so have been wearing SPF every day for years, so I'm not TOO worried, but yeah, will do

kinder, Friday, 20 September 2013 16:34 (ten years ago) link

i get a nonitchy rash on the front of my thighs sometimes, esp in the sun. apparently that's a symptom of hypo too? when the doc was asking me questions about symptoms i was alarmed at how many were totally spot on. "do you get almost unbearably cold when no one else is cold?" WHY YES I DO

apparently theres a rash with lupus too, but its in a butterfly shape on the face. i don't have that.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Friday, 20 September 2013 16:56 (ten years ago) link

ugh why the gloom the week before my period? hate it.

quincie, Friday, 20 September 2013 17:03 (ten years ago) link

Roxy, is your nose often cold? My feet, hands, and nose are always freezing.

Tracking your body temp is helpful, too. Take it first thing in the morning, upon waking.

When I first started tracking mine was under 96, sometimes even as low as 95. Now I am up to 97, and by mid day I am around 98-ish. So it's rising...

homosexual II, Friday, 20 September 2013 19:25 (ten years ago) link

Agatha: my doctor said it was normal, not menopause, perhaps breastfeeding making my hormones weird. August still breast feeds quite often. The menopause test didn't show anything out of the ordinary and he said my periods would be further apart not closer together.

In the past I was able to measure my thyroid levels, more or less, by how many strands of hair I'd lose. If I stopped counting at 20 and there was still a lot, I would go in and get it checked and sure enough my levels were slightly off. I'd have to take a half a pill more or skip a day and then get tested again. But that is me and how I work.

*tera, Friday, 20 September 2013 21:09 (ten years ago) link

My hands and arms are the worst. Haven't really noticed my nose. xp

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Friday, 20 September 2013 21:09 (ten years ago) link

My nose is always cold but I thought that was because it sticks out so far?!

special beet service (La Lechera), Friday, 20 September 2013 21:48 (ten years ago) link

Sometimes my boobs get really cold for what I always figured was the same reason.

carl agatha, Friday, 20 September 2013 22:12 (ten years ago) link

i don't think my boobs have ever been cold! how weird. maybe its cause i try to squash them down with tight bras

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Friday, 20 September 2013 22:15 (ten years ago) link

Mine are cold right now!

special beet service (La Lechera), Friday, 20 September 2013 22:20 (ten years ago) link

I'm on the train and it's way too a/c'ed.

special beet service (La Lechera), Friday, 20 September 2013 22:21 (ten years ago) link

i get cold nose/feet/hands but i'm pretty sure it's because i've been a pack a day smoker for 20+ yrs

not some dude poking a Line 6 pedal with his dick (sarahell), Friday, 20 September 2013 22:23 (ten years ago) link

i got my test results back, and the screen for connective tissue disease was positive. i need to have another test to figure out what exactly i have. the thyroid blood test was negative, but i don't know exactly what test it was. i have an appointment to hash this stuff out.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 14:56 (ten years ago) link

Yikes. I hope everything goes well with the additional testing.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 25 September 2013 15:06 (ten years ago) link

Jeez. I had to look that up and I wish you good luck, rox.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 15:17 (ten years ago) link

im feeling weird cause as i've told people those results they've expressed great sympathy and fear and strong emotions, and i was basically feeling nothing about the results until people reacted that way - i think maybe this is because i've known something was going on and its just nice to know what it is? i'm not feeling scared, for whatever reason. and i feel pretty sure that it is not lupus because i have no joint swelling. however, i also have no joint stiffness, so it might not be rheumatoid arthritis, either, which is what i've always guessed it is.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 15:44 (ten years ago) link

and thanks for the well wishes!

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 15:45 (ten years ago) link

Well I mean if the symptoms you experience are basically a mild inconvenience, then the rest is all upside! Hopefully you'll feel even better with treatment and be basically superhuman.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 15:49 (ten years ago) link

I am guessing people don't entirely understand the scope of what connective tissue disorders could encompass and assume the worst, maybe. It is a relief to know what is going on, and now you can start to manage it. It's also nice to have some validation that you're not making things up (or maybe that's just me).

I'm sorry if I added to the weird feeling about reactions you are getting.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 25 September 2013 15:55 (ten years ago) link

best of luck with it rox, hope whatever it is that you have turns out to be something manageable.

Dora Viola G. I. de Orellana Dysart Plantagenet Tollemache-Tolle (c sharp major), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 15:55 (ten years ago) link

oh no i didnt mean yall, just like my mom and bf etc xp

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 15:58 (ten years ago) link

and yeah its nice to know it isnt in my head!

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 15:58 (ten years ago) link

Oh, moms, yeah they are gonna be total moms about this kind of thing.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 25 September 2013 16:00 (ten years ago) link

she is already texting everyone in the world to pray for me. lol

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 16:12 (ten years ago) link

Bless her heart.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 25 September 2013 16:24 (ten years ago) link

Thinking of you, E.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 16:34 (ten years ago) link

So in the past two weeks I found out that my oldest friend is 7 wks pg by a guy she has been dating for 4 months who is:

- 7 yrs younger
- unemployed
- a pothead
- not really looking for a job
- is HIV +

The more I find out the harder it's getting to be supportive and not just outright tell her that this all sounds like p much the worst idea ever and it's really starting to weigh on me! I'm trying to be there for her as much as I can because her family (who know all the above) are pretty upset and she feels really alone but gd it's just like there's something new and shitty about the situation every time I talk to her about it. Btw it's not like she's the most settled person. She's constantly broke and I think she maybe works 3 days a week. I'm going to go see her next weekend but I'm oh idk the whole thing is kind of insane.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 16:39 (ten years ago) link

She's at her first ultrasound right now and I know that after this (and assuming everything is OK) there's very little chance that she'll consider a termination and this makes me feel like a shitty person but that kind of makes me really sad because I just don't see this ending well. At all.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 16:41 (ten years ago) link

has she made a decision to have it? xp oh :/

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 16:42 (ten years ago) link

Yeah, I think she has. She very very briefly talked about maybe not having it but then burst into tears immediately and said that she just couldn't do that which I do understand and I mean God I'd never presume to tell anyone what to do or think in any way in that situation but the whole thing is just so fucking far from ideal and nuts that I can't really wrap my head around it but I'm gonna have to try if I'm gonna see her and meet him next weekend.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 16:44 (ten years ago) link

I think mostly I'm just still in shock.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 16:44 (ten years ago) link

That's a rough set of circumstances under which to have a baby.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 25 September 2013 16:47 (ten years ago) link

er, yeah... that sounds like a disaster.

homosexual II, Wednesday, 25 September 2013 16:49 (ten years ago) link

Yep and I mean that's why I'm trying to be as supportive as possible but it's really really hard not to want to just take her by the shoulders, shake her, and be like what planet are you living on where this seems like even a remotely non-disastrous idea?!

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 16:51 (ten years ago) link

Obviously it's her decision and I'm going to support her in whatever she ultimately does but it's just been a lot to take in though I feel shitty even saying that since I know it must be a million times harder for her etc. Sigh. We'll see what happens I guess.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 16:53 (ten years ago) link

what are her issues with abortion? is she religious?

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 17:03 (ten years ago) link

Just as a counterpoint:

A good friend of mine got pregnant by her drug dealing, abusive boyfriend who was in the country illegally (so without any legit employment prospects even if he were suited to legit employment, which he was not) and was a monster dumbass. She was also doing a whole lot of speed at the time and living the high roller drug dealer's girlfriend lifestyle (such as it was) and she decided to carry the pregnancy to term* and now she's a nurse living in a 'burb of Atlanta with her solid, upstanding boyfriend, two dogs, and a pretty great nine-year-old kid.

I am NOT one for the narrative of women being saved by their pregnancies, but in this case, the reality of bringing a baby into her current situation actually galvanized her** to get out of her situation, move in with her parents to regroup for a few years, and then take her life in a healthier direction.

*more like she lived in terrible denial about it for so long (despite my numerous phone calls to her telling her to get to Planned Parenthood already what the hell is her problem) that the decision was eventually out of her hands, but that in and of itself is a decision, you know?

**not to say in any way whatsoever that women in abusive situations just need to "get motivated" and leave. The part where she actually made her break from this guy was pretty bad.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 25 September 2013 17:17 (ten years ago) link

I'd add to carl's counterpoint that this is the kind of situation that new-skool social workers would approach from a "strengths-based" perspective, focusing on strengths, resources, any and all positives that your friend can draw on (like you!) instead of getting blinded by the obvious negatives. It is amazing how resilient people are; they just manage even in the face of absurd odds.

quincie, Wednesday, 25 September 2013 17:25 (ten years ago) link

Thanks, Carl. I know that crazier things have happened and worked out and that maybe this won't end badly and I really hope that if she decides to carry to term and parent that this will be one of those situations.

Rox - no? I mean she's not Catholic or anything like that but she'd probably say she was "spiritual" and she's into a lot of new agey type stuff (nb we are v v different). I think more than anything she's got it in her head that this is the only chance she'll ever have to have a kid and she desperately wants a baby. She keeps saying "But I'm 35!" and stuff like that. I've tried to tell her that it's not but she's not really hearing it. Also the day she found out she put one of those "your baby is the size of a grape" things on her phone and keeps referencing that too.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 17:30 (ten years ago) link

x-post - That's what I'm trying to do. I think she'd actually be a really great mom with the right partner and support system I'm just not sure that she has either of those right now and worry that she'll get very overwhelmed. You're right though and that's what I'm going to try to do.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 17:32 (ten years ago) link

this is the kind of situation that new-skool social workers would approach from a "strengths-based" perspective, focusing on strengths, resources, any and all positives that your friend can draw on (like you!) instead of getting blinded by the obvious negatives.

This is kool, thanks.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 17:38 (ten years ago) link

i went through a similar thing with a friend very recently and it was hella stressful for me (which of course made me feel like a selfish asshole)
i'm still trying to slog through it honestly, among 500 other things
being stressed out suuuuuucks

special beet service (La Lechera), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 17:43 (ten years ago) link

also rox i'm glad you have some answers -- i can totally see how that would be reassuring

special beet service (La Lechera), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 17:43 (ten years ago) link

(which of course made me feel like a selfish asshole)

Yes!

Part of me is like why is this stressing me out so much but I feel really uneasy about the entire thing. Also, I'm still pretty stressed out these days generally speaking which I'm sure isn't helping how I'm dealing with this but I just keep telling myself to just be there and listen and hope for the best etc. I pretty excited to go down and see her next week as I haven't in a while and I know she's looking forward to it too. There's a chance I might see her family though and I hope it doesn't all get too dramatic.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 17:46 (ten years ago) link

side note - I was looking at cards to get her and found one that killed me that said "Congratulations on your new huge boobs" but then I worried that she might not think it was that funny or be insulted because somehow cause he kind of already has enormous boobs so I got a different one and then the next day she texts me a picture of herself that says "my boobs are huge!" and I was like DAMMIT!

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 17:49 (ten years ago) link

This is kind of like being supportive when your friend is marrying someone terrible but you're not sure they can be dissuaded, only more so: eventually there's going to be another person and another relationship to worry about (with the spouse/offspring) so you have to look long-term. (Only in the case of offspring obv the offspring is innocent and not terrible.)

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 17:51 (ten years ago) link

my way of dealing with it was to try not to absorb the stress/responsibility of comforting and just be there in a practical sense and supportive/positive about the future.

special beet service (La Lechera), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 18:17 (ten years ago) link

Woo if she's already comparing the fetus to fruit, her mind is made up.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 25 September 2013 18:57 (ten years ago) link

Well, I just got a text with the ultrasound pic (those things are wild, huh?) and a follow-up message that the baby d is walking 2 miles home because he stormed out of the car and decided to "act ghetto". Whoo boy.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 19:05 (ten years ago) link

Wow, this is stir-ry. I wish your friend the very best, and all the joys... I hope her man shapes up or she ends it clean, but whatever happens
hell idk what I'm trying to say
best to her, anyway, and to you. 'be supportive/positive' = excellent friendship approach.

you may not like it now but you will (Zora), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 19:26 (ten years ago) link

I'm having to give myself quite a bit of self-coaching on KIP while visiting my brother and his wife. Their marriage is so incredibly WTF to me, but what can I do? Not much.

quincie, Wednesday, 25 September 2013 19:36 (ten years ago) link

am i the only one who immediately thought of her probably now being infected with HIV and possibly with a future infected child? That just seems massively irresponsible.

homosexual II, Wednesday, 25 September 2013 20:53 (ten years ago) link

and cruel to purposefully bring a kid into the world with that kind of burden on their shoulders.

homosexual II, Wednesday, 25 September 2013 20:54 (ten years ago) link

actually, that was my question too: is the fact the babby daddy is HIV + gonna have serious effects on the kid's health?

not some dude poking a Line 6 pedal with his dick (sarahell), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 20:58 (ten years ago) link

I mean, if she got pregnant, they aren't using protection. Soooo... yeah, i mean, isn't she HIV+ now???

homosexual II, Wednesday, 25 September 2013 21:02 (ten years ago) link

No.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 21:12 (ten years ago) link

Heterosexual sex isn't actually a very effective means of transmitting HIV. I'm not gonna quote statistics that I can't remember exactly here but basically a serodiscordant couple (one +, one not) can have unprotected sex (PIV) every day for an entire year and the negative partner still won't even necessarily catch HIV. Like I said, I can't remember the % but it's way higher than you'd think (that the one partner would remain -). Now that's an unmedicated HIV+ person. ART has had a huge huge huge impact the transmission of the virus. If a + person is on ART and has an undetectable viral load (meaning the number of copies of the virus in their blood) then risk of transmission during heterosexual sex to the negative partner is effectively 0%. As far as I understand it that is the case with said person. He is on ART and his viral load is undetectable.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 21:17 (ten years ago) link

(also this all might not be 100% correct but it's the general idea)

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 21:18 (ten years ago) link

So as long as the medication remains effective and he stays undetectable they could conceivably have unprotected sex forever and she'd never get it. However there are certain things called viral spikes that could put her at increased but still low risk. Now - the medicine could stop working - some people become resistant to certain ART and they stop working but there's every chance that he might be able to stay on it forever. Also, mother-to-child transmission doesn't happen in utero but during the actual birth process so if she did become + during the pregnancy then what they'd do is towards the very end they'd put her on prophylactic ART and do a C-Section to avoid this. By doing that mother-to-child transmission has virtually been eliminated in the US/Europe.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 21:22 (ten years ago) link

I was scarred during the 90's AIDS awareness campaigns and thought I'd get HIV really easily without using a condom.

homosexual II, Wednesday, 25 September 2013 21:23 (ten years ago) link

sorry I wrote that out all really fast so it might not all make sense but I gotta catch my bus will re-read later to see if it does

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 21:24 (ten years ago) link

x-post - of course you were - so was I! We had the living shit scared out of us. Oh I have so many thoughts on this. Later!

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 21:25 (ten years ago) link

but basically that's simply not true and you're way way way more likely to get a zillion other things first statistically speaking.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 21:26 (ten years ago) link

That made clear sense to me. I knew some of that about hetero transmission rates, but didn't know that they had taken care of mother-to-child transmission. Good news, everyone!

ENBB I am v. interested in your thoughts on that issue.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 25 September 2013 21:27 (ten years ago) link

(also nb there are things that make what I just said untrue like presence of open lesions and/or vaginal tears or time of the month and general health just saying that so nobody jumps down my throat)

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 21:28 (ten years ago) link

i will not jump down your throat because of open lesions

not some dude poking a Line 6 pedal with his dick (sarahell), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 21:31 (ten years ago) link

Here's a little on the m-t-c thing: http://www.cdc.gov/globalaids/global-hiv-aids-at-cdc/eliminating-hiv-infections.html

"Without diagnosis and treatment, about 35% of HIV-infected pregnant women will transmit HIV to their infants. Key interventions, including those listed in the right column, have reduced mother-to-child transmission in the United States to <1% (CDC, 2007), in Botswana to 3.6% (Tlale J, 2008), and in South Africa to 3.5% (MRC South Africa, 2011) in infants 4-8 weeks of age."

Though that doesn't say anything about the vaginal v. c-section thing. hmmm. I swear I read that. Will have to look later. CA - Will def write more!

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 21:31 (ten years ago) link

That's fantastic. I love when we humans get things right re: medical advances.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 25 September 2013 21:32 (ten years ago) link

well, that definitely makes this having a kid thing seem way less controversial to me. I mean, it's dumb, but not hand-on-head-wtf level that I was at

homosexual II, Wednesday, 25 September 2013 21:35 (ten years ago) link

yeah, there are seriously only a handful of babies born HIV positive in the US anymore, and it pretty much only happens when there is no prenatal care.

kate78, Wednesday, 25 September 2013 21:37 (ten years ago) link

Take a look at this handy chart of transmission statistics from the CDC: http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/statistics/basics/

Male-to-male sexual contact is still, by far, how most HIV pos folks contract the virus. Women, it would seem, are twice as likely to contract HIV from hetero sex than men are.

kate78, Wednesday, 25 September 2013 21:40 (ten years ago) link

(click on Diagnoses of HIV Infection, by Transmission Category)

kate78, Wednesday, 25 September 2013 21:41 (ten years ago) link

Which *I think* has to do with the way het sex works like women are exposed to more fluids as the receptive partner and the vag is one big mucous membrane and more susceptible to tears etc than the penis. I'm sure there are other factors too but I think those are big ones.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 21:57 (ten years ago) link

Btw that was why I listed HIV Last because out of all the shit going on here it's actually maybe the least concerning in the immediate future. Except for how it will effect him and her (and baby) emotionally directly and indirectly etc. it was just another level. Also they have been dating 4 mos! So much to take on.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 22:01 (ten years ago) link

yes, re: first post. Same thing goes for receptive buttsecks, though, too.
However: she could totally still turn up HIV+. She's only been banging this dude for 4 mos. How motivated is this stoner without a job to stay on his meds?

kate78, Wednesday, 25 September 2013 22:07 (ten years ago) link

Yep. That's a very good point and one of the things that worries me. There's always a risk esp if he doesn't adhere to meds etc.

Also, this story just got worse.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 23:31 (ten years ago) link

:/

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 23:31 (ten years ago) link

oh no, what happened? twins?

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 25 September 2013 23:37 (ten years ago) link

I hope it's not twins.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 25 September 2013 23:42 (ten years ago) link

No, thank God but he gave her the clap. She found out today after the ultrasound.

jesus fuck

I've been on the phone for the last two hours. She's devastated and now considering termination. Interestingly it looks like there are only 3 clinics on all of LI that perform surgical abortions. I guess that's not that surprising though considering that when I last volunteered at an fp clinic here I think there were only 5 in the entire state of MA.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Thursday, 26 September 2013 00:13 (ten years ago) link

Oh that is terrible! I hope she kicks that dude in the nuts and never speaks to him again.

quincie, Thursday, 26 September 2013 00:16 (ten years ago) link

What do you tell someone when they're hysterical and asking why God is punishing them? It's so sad. Somehow, "idk but sometimes really shitty things happen to good people" isn't really cutting it.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Thursday, 26 September 2013 00:18 (ten years ago) link

and now considering termination.

Sometimes people need a thunderclap (ha, see what I did there?) to wake them the fuck up to the situation. I seriously do not get this must-have-a-baby-at-any-cost mentality.

kate78, Thursday, 26 September 2013 00:22 (ten years ago) link

Oh shit. Late, but 1. obviously nothing your friend decides to do is going to be wrong, but 2. can't help but think that if she has the baby it's going to be easier and more fun on her own, with family/friends' support, and 3. I just learnt a whole bunch about HIV transmission - thank you!

ljubljana, Thursday, 26 September 2013 00:22 (ten years ago) link

What do you tell someone when they're hysterical and asking why God is punishing them?

i'm trying to remember what we said when i did pregnancy counseling, but all i can remember saying is that pregnancy is just a bio fact that can be perceived/dealt with in myriad ways, and its not healthy to view it as a punishment or reward. idk. im sorry youre having that stress. i get so clammed up in situations like that

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 26 September 2013 00:50 (ten years ago) link

roxymuzak, I knew a guy who had connective tissue disease and managed it really well through diet and a change of lifestyle. I don't know the details or if he was on meds.

ENBB: wow, reading about this just made me tear up for the future child in this world. Is the mother HIV+?

Got my period for the 3rd month in a row at 27 days. Woohoo, feel like I'm getting somewhere, but ugh! I broke out with the worse case of acne in my life. It all seemed to subside once I got my period and is starting to rapidly disappear. I was also so irritable I wanted to crawl out of my skin, the day it started and 2nd day, yesterday, everything made me cry. I fucking hate this! I'm 42 and I feel fucking 14.

I don't want to keep seeing gyns or ob-gyns because it seems like this is the sort of thing no one is going to really explore. What the last gyn said sounded like a reasonable explanation. Only one way to find out and it is to kick August off the boob but she's way more emotionally attached to it than my friend's babies were...it's complicated.

*tera, Friday, 27 September 2013 09:10 (ten years ago) link

the mom is not HIV+, and apparently has great odds of staying that way, as does the baby. There's a (really informative, for me!) discussion of this upthread.

Glad things are evening out with your periods, even if you have to live through some annoying effects while things settle down.

ljubljana, Friday, 27 September 2013 18:07 (ten years ago) link

Yeah, what Ljub said. So long story short she found out a bunch more really horrendous shit the other afternoon, he left her and she terminated the pregnancy yesterday. Just a really fucking sad situation. Hopefully she can start to heal from this whole thing now. Still going down there next weekend.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Friday, 27 September 2013 20:53 (ten years ago) link

wow, poor woman. I know we are probably thinking overall it's for the best but who'd want to be in that situation. Sounds like she really wanted to be a mum, too. GL ENBB

kinder, Friday, 27 September 2013 21:46 (ten years ago) link

Got a call from the gyn today, three weeks after pap. Test results came in and it was all weird and somewhat bad news. I wish I could go into more detail and get input, advise and opinions but unfortunately, too private to discuss on here. I wish there was a real room with you all in it right now.

*tera, Friday, 27 September 2013 22:47 (ten years ago) link

*advice

*tera, Friday, 27 September 2013 22:47 (ten years ago) link

I hear that. You would all know a lot more about old lechera if we were in a room irl. Sorry you got shitty test results Tera!!

Untt (La Lechera), Friday, 27 September 2013 22:49 (ten years ago) link

aw shit, so sorry! I'm having weird emotional turbulence with my period this week, which is something that rarely happens to me.

not some dude poking a Line 6 pedal with his dick (sarahell), Friday, 27 September 2013 22:49 (ten years ago) link

Would you a trust a doctor who had this sort of thing behind him? I guess all doctors do or might? Anyway, getting a second opinion, just a lot of waiting from now until this is sorted and I get re-diagnosed.
http://www.leagle.com/decision/20001031201F3d830_1937
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/tx-court-of-appeals/1506749.html

*tera, Friday, 27 September 2013 22:57 (ten years ago) link

I would get a second opinion, yes. Docs get sued all the time but losing a med mal case (as opposed to settling, which I wouldn't hold against someone necessarily) is another matter. Also from the first case:

Based on this report, we believe that any damage that may be done to plaintiff's professional reputation is substantially outweighed by the harm that defendants and the public would suffer if plaintiff continues to practice medicine without additional training.

He's probably had additional training by now but no need for you to be the test case.

carl agatha, Friday, 27 September 2013 23:06 (ten years ago) link

The doctor was odd when I walked in there today with husband and baby. He gave me papers to sign that I didn't understand then proceeded to NOT tell me what they were for so I asked and he told me due to a test result I had to sign those papers and then gave me the test results and it was all jibberjabberblahblah while my head was spinning and i finally said none of this is making much sense right now, told me husband I had to get out of here, had to leave and told the doctor, sorry, waste of time, too much to process.

As soon as I got home I looked him up. I had a weird first visit and thought about it for days later. He refers to sex as "relations" and "relationships" and used those words the entire first visit. Then He told me my cervix was low and it could get injured during 'relations". Then he positioned two fingers in such a way to show me the ideal entry for "relationships". It was at that point that I was WTF?! Is this okay? I mean it's been awhile since I've had a male gyn and I started to think if a female had done that would I feel the same. Yes. I would think it was odd just maybe not as violated? But I walked out thinking, hmmm maybe it's just me. What was that? Was that necessary? I didn't say I had pain during intercourse just that I was there for irregular periods and at the moment thought maybe I was getting a uti because my abdomen felt tender. The nurse/receptionist/19-21 year old just stood at the far end of the room and was not looking and just standing there.

Today I realized that I didn't pay much attention to the instruments used and usually I hear paper ripping and it's a kit and how I never heard that and wonder how sterile everything was. It was an older office, lots of them in this area are though.

*tera, Friday, 27 September 2013 23:09 (ten years ago) link

Maybe discrediting the doctor is my way of getting through the next few weeks.

*tera, Friday, 27 September 2013 23:11 (ten years ago) link

Thanks, ca, definitely!

*tera, Friday, 27 September 2013 23:12 (ten years ago) link

My mom was just involved in a med malpractice suit and I've got v negative feelings abt it. Justice was not served.

Untt (La Lechera), Saturday, 28 September 2013 00:58 (ten years ago) link

Tera if I'm reading your account if that first visit correctly, it is time for you to find a new doctor ASAP.

carl agatha, Saturday, 28 September 2013 01:49 (ten years ago) link

That first visit sounds odd, but I'm not sure what exactly was happening. I definitely wouldn't go back.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Saturday, 28 September 2013 02:57 (ten years ago) link

Not planning on it. Wish I had never gone there to begin with and driven the extra miles to the bigger town with more choices. Now stuck with this mess until I can get it sorted and it's not likely to happen within 48 hours so ugh.....

roxymuzak: It was during a pap test that he pointed out the cervix being low and the alternative point of entry. Puzzled me since that was never a concern of mine and I said nothing about pain during intercourse nor concerned about my cervix etc... So angry right now, nerves fried. Looking up a good place to call on Monday and starting over.

*tera, Saturday, 28 September 2013 03:41 (ten years ago) link

I've been able to never have go to a male GYN, I know some people like their man doctors just fine but for me it would be a last resort just this side of a social disease.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Saturday, 28 September 2013 03:53 (ten years ago) link

^^^ this. tbh i can't even deal with male GPs/PCPs

just1n3, Saturday, 28 September 2013 04:26 (ten years ago) link

*tera, just chiming in to say I'm so sorry you have a stressful situation to deal with, and NO ONE need ever settle for a doctor they don't like, especially a GYN! We've been socialized to think doctors are these special unicorns, when in fact they are a commodity that can be treated just like other commodities purchased by consumers! Don't buy a product you don't like!

quincie, Saturday, 28 September 2013 07:33 (ten years ago) link

Oh, ENBB, I'm sorry to hear about the extra crap you're friend is dealing with, and am sure she's sad about how things turned out. Tough situation. I hope she has some relief that it's resolved.

carl agatha, Saturday, 28 September 2013 12:35 (ten years ago) link

I lucked into a male GP that I love dearly and look forward to seeing until one of us dies but i am more comfortable with women for ob/gyn.

carl agatha, Saturday, 28 September 2013 12:38 (ten years ago) link

I've seen male providers for my paps. they always offer to refer me to a female provider, but I figure the dudes need the practice. in multi-provider practices, the female providers always get the paps punted to them.

kate78, Saturday, 28 September 2013 16:59 (ten years ago) link

quincie: love how you put it and viewing it that way from now on

I had one awesome male gyn. He was super intelligent and a real problem solver. I had him for two years then he retired. Saw the male obgyn he referred me too and that guy was a quack. Went to him once for a pap then a year later he phoned me at 11 or 12am from a hotel room to tell me where I could pick up my records, something about my records. It was creepy. He sounded drunk. That ended male obgyns until recently..ending it again.

*tera, Saturday, 28 September 2013 20:45 (ten years ago) link

CA - aw, thank you. She's doing surprisingly well considering. She even said yesterday (the day after the termination) was the first day she woke up and didn't feel horrible - that she felt likee a weight had been lifted somehow so I think that, even though in some ways this whole thing might not even have hit her yet, she's gonna be OK. I'm hoping hanging out and doing stuff next weekend will be helpful - we're already making plans.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Saturday, 28 September 2013 20:52 (ten years ago) link

o_O *tera

kinder, Saturday, 28 September 2013 21:31 (ten years ago) link

I'm glad she's OK ENBB. Fingers crossed she gets over it quickly, and I know it's a lot to ask of the universe, but I hope she finds someone who's good for her and has a baby when the time's right.

On another subject, anybody here ever had mad random boob pain? I've got this sharp, sickening pain in my left tit, doesn't seem to be connected to the surrounding muscles or anything, and it's not sore-boob time of the month. Idk if I should be worrying about it. I mean, there's no lump or anything, no redness or swelling, it just hurts like hell.

ILX is sad (Zora), Saturday, 28 September 2013 23:40 (ten years ago) link

yes!!! and i was thinking about posting it in this thread a couple weeks ago!!

for me it's a burning/pinching/itching pain, right inside the boob tissue. usually only in one or the other, never at the same time. it's v uncomfortable, bc i want to scratch it, but it's too deep to get to, so i end up sort of squeezing/rubbing my boobs a lot.

sorry about your friend ENBB - it sucks that she felt like bc of her age she had to take this chance of having a baby. i have v strong feelings about this subject. i hope the decision is one she can be content with and move forward and find a better life for herself.

just1n3, Saturday, 28 September 2013 23:52 (ten years ago) link

There was a crazy debate on my Facebook wall about street harassment between bcoers and my goth friends while I was sleeping last night. 92 comments.

homosexual II, Sunday, 29 September 2013 14:24 (ten years ago) link

what's a bcoer?

Untt (La Lechera), Sunday, 29 September 2013 14:27 (ten years ago) link

People who post on bco (boardcrewcial.org)

homosexual II, Sunday, 29 September 2013 14:29 (ten years ago) link

oh! i really did not know that or what it was. thx. i was wondering what was up with the massive fb comment thread. weird!

Untt (La Lechera), Sunday, 29 September 2013 14:30 (ten years ago) link

Which side was taking the pro harassment stance?

carl agatha, Sunday, 29 September 2013 14:52 (ten years ago) link

ENBB: Feel so bad for your friend, that was an unbelievably tough situation to be in. I do hope good things come her way.

Zora: Yes, had that before, just on one side. Drove me insane! It must be hormonal, had it happen a few times when I was pregnant.

*tera, Sunday, 29 September 2013 14:57 (ten years ago) link

afaict neither side was "pro" but there was the group saying "i'd beat that guy up" and the other group saying "that's not productive and you're perpetuating macho bs"
what i don't know is which side was which, but i didn't know what a bcoer was until a few min ago.

Untt (La Lechera), Sunday, 29 September 2013 15:02 (ten years ago) link

Ah, okay. That's good nobody was pulling the "How will I ever meet women if I can't compliment strangers" crap. I don't know who any of these people are but I feel better knowing nobody took that stance.

carl agatha, Sunday, 29 September 2013 15:23 (ten years ago) link

The goths were macho pro gun, bco was the logical realistic voice

homosexual II, Sunday, 29 September 2013 15:43 (ten years ago) link

basically my goth DJ friend was saying if he'd only been there, he would have protected me. Or something. Then the BCO contingent chimed in with "that kind of masculine aggressive behavior just continues the problem, it doesn't solve anything" only to have another goth friend chime in with "LOL you obviously don't know him he's SERIOUS" and then.. it just got ridic. And then his wife chimed in with "Let me know if you need me to tell you how to get a concealed weapon permit!"

homosexual II, Sunday, 29 September 2013 17:25 (ten years ago) link

so I guess in some people's minds I'd be safer carrying around a gun. Which seems absurd to me.

homosexual II, Sunday, 29 September 2013 17:27 (ten years ago) link

And then his wife chimed in with "Let me know if you need me to tell you how to get a concealed weapon permit!"

TBH that was the most absurd part of the whole thing to me.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Sunday, 29 September 2013 18:22 (ten years ago) link

my favorite part was "you dont know her irl, and we do!!"

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Sunday, 29 September 2013 19:30 (ten years ago) link

also "man hating lesbians"

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Sunday, 29 September 2013 19:31 (ten years ago) link

Thx Just1n3 and *tera, I'll hang on a bit longer and hope it goes away. No reason for my hormones to be wobbling, unless it's super early menopause, but we shall see. Maybe some starflower oil or sth would be worth a shot.

ILX is sad (Zora), Sunday, 29 September 2013 20:57 (ten years ago) link

oh yeah man hating lesbians was classic too

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Sunday, 29 September 2013 21:43 (ten years ago) link

I too have had random boob pain a few times and it went away again. Some of it was most likely from ill-fitting bras, as they also left marks on the outside, but at least once it seemed to be completely unexplained. I never know whether to take things like that to the GP.

Though I've just reread your post and I don't think any of mine would count as "sharp, sickening" (I think I know the sensation just1n3 describes though) - I hope all is well.

tbh I find the whole concept of Breast Health totally hypochondria-inducing and I've nearly stopped checking mine because that way I get to worry less but I am aware this may not be the cleverest approach

the supreme personality of Godhead : a summary study (a passing spacecadet), Sunday, 29 September 2013 22:50 (ten years ago) link

it is normal for one to be larger than the other, right?

not some dude poking a Line 6 pedal with his dick (sarahell), Sunday, 29 September 2013 22:59 (ten years ago) link

Totally normal.

carl agatha, Sunday, 29 September 2013 23:00 (ten years ago) link

Fun fact! My left boob and foot are bigger than my right, and my left eyebrow is bushier and my hair is thicker on the left side of my head (which is why I part my hair on the left). None of this is noticeable to third parties but it's totes true.

carl agatha, Sunday, 29 September 2013 23:01 (ten years ago) link

it is weird because i have no anxiety whatsoever about the fact that one of my feet is wider and shorter than the other, but when it comes to boobs, different story

not some dude poking a Line 6 pedal with his dick (sarahell), Sunday, 29 September 2013 23:02 (ten years ago) link

i have had 3rd parties point out the boob size discrepancy

not some dude poking a Line 6 pedal with his dick (sarahell), Sunday, 29 September 2013 23:06 (ten years ago) link

I've even seen bras for sale with two different cup sizes. Totally normal.

carl agatha, Sunday, 29 September 2013 23:26 (ten years ago) link

Random boob pain: My friend had this last year and the doc told her tumors usually aren't painful, pain usually means a benign cyst or something. They then proceeded to diagnose her with stage IV. May I suggest getting boob pain checked out?

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Sunday, 29 September 2013 23:41 (ten years ago) link

Mandeee that thread was the greatest thing in the world to wake up to this morning. I wish I could like the bco ppl's posts more times.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Sunday, 29 September 2013 23:42 (ten years ago) link

I esp liked "I'M FROM THE BRONX, YOU CUNTY RETARD. WE SOLVE OUR PROBLEMS WITH VIOLENCE THERE" which I'm paraphrasing but that was the gist of it. That was where I thought, this not very bright person is going down.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Sunday, 29 September 2013 23:43 (ten years ago) link

Yeah that thread was quite hilare. I love people who get all YOU DONT KNOW ME and then have their friends wade in and defend em.

taxi tomato or bag tomato (Trayce), Sunday, 29 September 2013 23:49 (ten years ago) link

Those ppl reminded me of my drama llama ex who cultivated beefs so he'd always have something to feud about, and he'd always have a Greek chorus of punk/rock girls defending him and telling him how hot he was in sentences that couldn't be parsed.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Sunday, 29 September 2013 23:50 (ten years ago) link

in orbit, ugh, that's scary, what happened next? Also, how long did it take her to go to the doctor, because I've only had this pain about 5 days and surely it takes longer for a tumour to develop than that? o_O

When I say 'sharp, sickening', there's a dull ache all around but this one spot I can barely make myself touch or I see stars, altho obv I made myself touch it to check for lumps (No lump). It's like stubbing a toe.

I enjoyed yr facts, carl agatha! My boobs are different sizes too, although it's not as pronounced since I put some more weight on. Mostly I'm quite symmetrical but I can only smile properly on one side of my mouth.

I am failing to follow the drama story. for some reason *I* couldn't parse *it* earlier and I still can't but it's 1am now and there seems little point trying.

ILX is sad (Zora), Monday, 30 September 2013 00:04 (ten years ago) link

She had chemo, surgery, and radiation and is back home and apparently clear but having tests every so often in case it comes back. Early days yet. Tbh I think it took her a while to get it checked out and then the doctors said it wasn't anything and it was too small to worry about...by the time she got it biopsied it had turned aggressive. We're talking over months here. Surely you have plenty of time to make an appt.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Monday, 30 September 2013 00:06 (ten years ago) link

OK. It's good to know she's clear, I hope she stays clear. Such a monstrous thing. If I'm still ouchie in a week I'll make an appt.

ILX is sad (Zora), Monday, 30 September 2013 00:13 (ten years ago) link

zora, please go to the dr asap. not trying to frighten you, as i have no stories of such breast pain leading to anything serious, but when you say things like "I can barely make myself touch or I see stars" this worries me a lot, personally.

i will also add that my boobs are two distinctly different sizes, but the difference is less obvious the skinnier i am.

just1n3, Monday, 30 September 2013 01:16 (ten years ago) link

yes, please go now, Zora, from a pain management point of view, quite apart from wanting to catch it early if it's anything to worry about. You probably wouldn't wait a week to see if that kind of intense pain goes away if it was your leg or your arm...

ljubljana, Monday, 30 September 2013 02:02 (ten years ago) link

It's ok folks, it's definitely easing off. Goodness knows what it was.

one over two first letter human (Zora), Tuesday, 1 October 2013 17:20 (ten years ago) link

apropos of nothing, I remarked to Clay that I had been randomly sweating at various points yesterday, and wonder if it was all the booze I drank on Sunday. He said I would have sweated it out Sunday night if so, and as he was starting to walk away he said 'Or maybe it's just change of life, you know'

I yelled so loud at him

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 1 October 2013 18:49 (ten years ago) link

I got the results of my food intolerance test today. Ugh, sigh. WHY. WHY. My dietician said she'd never seen anyone with as many intolerances as me :( :( :(

homosexual II, Friday, 4 October 2013 20:42 (ten years ago) link

Are food intolerance tests skin tests or some other sort of test? What is left that you can eat?

V. sorry to hear this, of course, but perhaps it is the start of a path to feeling better?

quincie, Friday, 4 October 2013 20:46 (ten years ago) link

No, its not a skin test. The skin scratch test is for immediate histamine reactions. This is a blood test (MRT/LEAP) that looks for delayed reactions that lead to an inflammatory response.

homosexual II, Friday, 4 October 2013 21:52 (ten years ago) link

Hey zo and just1ne, would you consider getting that breast pain/itching looked at anyway? Even if it went away?

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Friday, 4 October 2013 21:53 (ten years ago) link

^^^

ljubljana, Friday, 4 October 2013 23:37 (ten years ago) link

Lol no I'm happy telling other ppl to go to the dr but I only go if I can't actually function. I hate doctors and the medical profession in general, having had 3 or 4 too many bad experiences, and knowing too many ppl who've gone through the same.

just1n3, Saturday, 5 October 2013 00:52 (ten years ago) link

Like, I just had a breakdown that lasted a week before I agreed to go see a dr

just1n3, Saturday, 5 October 2013 00:53 (ten years ago) link

Im a bit like that for similar bad-experiences reasons. Male GPs can go to fuck. Ive had "you must be sexually active, your thyroid's swollen!'leered at me by a pensioner-age old feller, and "you're making that up for a work note arent you?" sneered at me by a young prick when I wrenched my knee falling off a stage.

taxi tomato or bag tomato (Trayce), Saturday, 5 October 2013 01:09 (ten years ago) link

I think I started a thread about that once ages ago!

taxi tomato or bag tomato (Trayce), Saturday, 5 October 2013 01:09 (ten years ago) link

Like, I just had a breakdown that lasted a week before I agreed to go see a dr

I respect that you have to prioritize to manage your total wellness and the decisions involved are personal. I'm just feeling solicitous since I accidentally saw a fb infograph about pain and itching being warning signs for bc. Who even knows, it could be blown all out of reality.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Saturday, 5 October 2013 01:15 (ten years ago) link

Probably everyone but me already knew that and your decisions to say "Fuck, no" are completely informed. I did not know before so that plus my friend's experience are on my mind rn.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Saturday, 5 October 2013 01:17 (ten years ago) link

Also the thing where my dad's prostate cancer could have been caught a year ago if he hadn't skipped his physical. (He appears to be fine post-surgery btw and everything.)

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Saturday, 5 October 2013 01:18 (ten years ago) link

Oh, good news! I'm really glad to hear that, io.

carl agatha, Saturday, 5 October 2013 01:24 (ten years ago) link

Hi, carl!!!!!! Thank you but for various non cancer related reasons his surgery was extra complicated so now he starts all the fun of 6 months' recovery! That'll be a blast for my mom I'm sure.

BUT TELL US ABOUT YOU. How are you feeling? Do you have a glow? Are you eating strange things yet? (Stranger than normal, anyway--don't think I've forgotten about scrapple.) Tell us childless withered husks all about it!!

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Saturday, 5 October 2013 01:30 (ten years ago) link

Six months! Yikes. My heart goes out to him. And your mom, and you.

Me... I'm in the third trimester now so tired a lot. I'm possibly glowing, actually yes. I'm really into milk. I've got a high risk thing going on that requires extra monitoring, so I go in every week for ultrasounds and non-stress tests, which can be stressful but it's nice to get regular reports on how awesome the baby is.

carl agatha, Saturday, 5 October 2013 01:43 (ten years ago) link

I was planning on posting more about that on the pregnancy commiseration thread when I know a little more about how things are going to go because I don't want it to be an outlet for me to just be randomly anxious about things, just an FYI for people who were interested.

carl agatha, Saturday, 5 October 2013 01:48 (ten years ago) link

Yes that's fine, I'll read all about it there too, I was just happy to see you and thought, I wonder what strange and/or wonderful things are happening in her life. And I'm tired and still have to photograph an apple betty, which means staging it on a nice tablecloth and everything. So obviously I'm procrastinating.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Saturday, 5 October 2013 01:50 (ten years ago) link

FYI I am now craving apple betty.

carl agatha, Saturday, 5 October 2013 02:25 (ten years ago) link

With whipped cream.

carl agatha, Saturday, 5 October 2013 02:25 (ten years ago) link

And a glass of milk.

carl agatha, Saturday, 5 October 2013 02:25 (ten years ago) link

Well that's fair because I'm drinking tall, cold glasses of milk vicariously through you RIGHT THIS SECOND.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Saturday, 5 October 2013 02:29 (ten years ago) link

i got invited to a baby shower. i have never been to a baby shower. i went to a bridal shower once. what should i know about baby showers?

excited about the intentional phallus-y (sarahell), Saturday, 5 October 2013 02:31 (ten years ago) link

First of all ascertain whether it's okay if everyone but the pregnant lady drinks. Sometimes there's no drinking, in solidarity or something idk? and that's usually a bad sign.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Saturday, 5 October 2013 02:32 (ten years ago) link

otm

sober baby showers can be v creepy

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 5 October 2013 02:36 (ten years ago) link

I haven't been to a baby shower possibly since high school though and that was thrown by church ladies for a teen mom so my experience may not be typical.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Saturday, 5 October 2013 02:38 (ten years ago) link

I keep making posts that keep getting eaten so speaking if eating and baby showers:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/peggy/baby-shower-cakes-made-of-nightmares

carl agatha, Saturday, 5 October 2013 02:46 (ten years ago) link

I was still in the process of murmuring, "No, no, no, no" from #10 when I got to #14 and started laughing hysterically.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Saturday, 5 October 2013 02:49 (ten years ago) link

#28!!!

excited about the intentional phallus-y (sarahell), Saturday, 5 October 2013 02:52 (ten years ago) link

I hate doctors too, but I am really glad I started looking for ones who listen to me. Now I have a really awesome dietician and nurse practitioner (both women) who are finally giving me the care I needed. But they don't take insurance, of course.

homosexual II, Saturday, 5 October 2013 03:38 (ten years ago) link

Okay here's an update: I have officially turned a corner into HUNGRY ALL THE TIME land. Holy shit. I got up at midnight to eat cheese, had a Popsicle at 4:30, and had Jeff make me toaster waffles when he got up to run at 6. Then I went back to sleep until now and I am starving again.

Run Francie... I don't know if I can control the hunger...

carl agatha, Saturday, 5 October 2013 14:27 (ten years ago) link

I think she's under the bed if you're looking.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Saturday, 5 October 2013 17:30 (ten years ago) link

I got up and ate oatmeal and a banana and now we're out in search of brunch.

This is how vampires must feel.

carl agatha, Saturday, 5 October 2013 17:38 (ten years ago) link

Well, let us know if the pulsing vein in Jeff's neck starts to look tempting--until then enjoy the fried eggs and pancakes!

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Saturday, 5 October 2013 17:47 (ten years ago) link

carl i think you may have a dangerous addiction
to F{BL)OOD

Untt (La Lechera), Saturday, 5 October 2013 17:54 (ten years ago) link

what should i know about baby showers?
That they are the worst.

kate78, Monday, 7 October 2013 00:42 (ten years ago) link

otm

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 7 October 2013 01:29 (ten years ago) link

People having babies like Target gift cards, and if they don't, FUCK 'EM.

even the beatles had a coinstar machine in their living room (Crabbits), Monday, 7 October 2013 01:56 (ten years ago) link

i think there is a registry thing that the hostesses sent guests a link to

excited about the intentional phallus-y (sarahell), Monday, 7 October 2013 01:58 (ten years ago) link

I have never known a parent-to-be who did not appreciate a gift card if you don't feel like futzing around with something from the registry.

carl agatha, Monday, 7 October 2013 02:04 (ten years ago) link

I think the only potentially wrong move is getting a thing that is not on the registry or getting a different version of something that they registered for (admittedly may be projecting there).

carl agatha, Monday, 7 October 2013 02:08 (ten years ago) link

with these online registry things, it keeps track of whether someone else has bought a particular item, I'd hope?

excited about the intentional phallus-y (sarahell), Monday, 7 October 2013 02:09 (ten years ago) link

The last baby shower I went to was men and women (which I am sort of against in principle) and it was fun.

The grandfather-to-be found his son-in-law's brother asleep in truck bed so I guess someone had fun.

tokyo rosemary, Monday, 7 October 2013 02:19 (ten years ago) link

It does if the person buys the thing through the registry or a parent makes the thing as purchased, but there's no guarantee. Just get a gift receipt and it will all be fine.

carl agatha, Monday, 7 October 2013 02:22 (ten years ago) link

I think the thing w both wedding and baby showers is that many times the other guests are all family or friends of your friend that you don't know. Sometimes that's great bc what you have in common is how much you love the bride/mother-to-be but sometimes you distinctly don't click with the other guests and you basically have to put up and shut up, them's the rules. This is where drinking helps.

Of course if it's mostly people you already know and like, then you can safely think of both types of occasion as just awesome parties to celebrate for and with your friend.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Monday, 7 October 2013 02:28 (ten years ago) link

FYI with those online registries that corral a bunch of websites you usually buy on one site then go back to the list to indicate you purchased the item.

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Monday, 7 October 2013 02:35 (ten years ago) link

does anyone in this piece experience super localized pain on both sides w/ ovulation?

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Monday, 7 October 2013 04:24 (ten years ago) link

Sometimes yeah.

taxi tomato or bag tomato (Trayce), Monday, 7 October 2013 04:26 (ten years ago) link

Well at least Ive always assumed thats what it was from the timing.

taxi tomato or bag tomato (Trayce), Monday, 7 October 2013 04:26 (ten years ago) link

ive just started getting that. i dont know why it waited til now. haw.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Monday, 7 October 2013 04:45 (ten years ago) link

Yeah I (used to) get that every month starting around my mid/late-20s, on both sides but worse on one side. It's called "mittelschmerz" which is fun to say and not so fun to have.

Painkillers didn't have much effect and it was getting so bad I just wanted to spend 2 days a month curled up in a ball so I went on the pill to stop ovulation, which came with some exciting side-effects of its own. I've been off the pill for 2-3 months now and it hasn't been as bad as it used to be but I suspect it's building back up.

Yeah its a sharper more kick in the guts pain.

taxi tomato or bag tomato (Trayce), Monday, 7 October 2013 09:10 (ten years ago) link

I get that too! Only since I've been off the pill though. It's a good reminder for me that I am about to board the rollercoaster, so it doesn't really bother me that much.

Untt (La Lechera), Monday, 7 October 2013 13:33 (ten years ago) link

Huh, interesting. I think I might also get that? It's hard to tell between the cramps and the vagaries of my digestion at any given moment--I can have stomach pains at p much any time unless I've been super careful w diet.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Monday, 7 October 2013 13:36 (ten years ago) link

I just didn't know what it was because it didn't make sense for it to hurt on both sides.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Monday, 7 October 2013 13:36 (ten years ago) link

Ovaries are like abdominal drudge sirens.

Untt (La Lechera), Monday, 7 October 2013 13:40 (ten years ago) link

I get those ovary pains, which seems odd because I don't ovulate (thanking u, pill).

Although I've been on the same pill for aaaaaaages, my PMS has been worse in the past several months. I've always had breakouts (controlled by spironolactone, thankfully), a hunger that isn't so much hunger as a compulsive need to be eating something all of the time, and one day where I prefer to be close to a bathroom (progesterone-induced diarrhea), lately I've had feelings of anxiety/depression/general grumpiness. These feeling suck worse than the other symptoms. Advice?

quincie, Monday, 7 October 2013 15:37 (ten years ago) link

menstrual cycles are fucking shit, man. if i believed in god i might actually agree with fundies who think he hates women.

i'm interested to see if the AD i'm now on has any effect on the anxiety/depression/general grumpiness that precedes my period, since thinking about, it definitely got worse when everything else got worse months ago.

i get the compulsive hunger, too, quincie - and it really is compulsive.

just1n3, Monday, 7 October 2013 16:12 (ten years ago) link

I started getting premenstrual depression/anxiety a few years ago and it suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks. Part of me knew that it was hormonal and if I waited a couple of days, I'd be in the clear, but the fun part of depression/anxiety is that you can logically tell yourself whatever the hell you want and no matter how true it is, it won't mean shit.

carl agatha, Monday, 7 October 2013 16:18 (ten years ago) link

yep

just1n3, Monday, 7 October 2013 16:23 (ten years ago) link

Ovaries are like abdominal drudge sirens.

Didn't want you to think I slept on this, I've had this image in my head all morning.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Monday, 7 October 2013 16:31 (ten years ago) link

I used to know someone who had red and blue navigational stars tattooed under her hip bones, and now I can't stop seeing drudge sirens in the same place.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Monday, 7 October 2013 16:45 (ten years ago) link

haha
your friend aimed a little low if she was aiming for ovary tattoos

Untt (La Lechera), Monday, 7 October 2013 16:57 (ten years ago) link

I hear you, carl. I tell myself "OK don't freak out this is just hormonal thing and you will be fine in 2 days," but in truth I am thinking "holy shit I am losing it, will never feel OK again, wtf wtf wtf wtf is wrong with me HALP."

quincie, Monday, 7 October 2013 18:10 (ten years ago) link

roxy i started getting that just in the last year!

No more kisses (sunny successor), Monday, 7 October 2013 20:11 (ten years ago) link

!

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Monday, 7 October 2013 20:21 (ten years ago) link

I got tons of blood drawn today at the doc - they're trying to figure out which connective tissue disease I have. The nurse who took me back was like "this is a really cool test. You find out a lot about yourself from it."

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Monday, 7 October 2013 20:23 (ten years ago) link

my appt is tomorrow
really nervous but treating myself to a trip to the middle eastern place for lunch + record store to convince myself to not cancel
i will apparently submit to having my blood removed from my body in exchange for a spinach pie + falafel salad for dinner

Untt (La Lechera), Monday, 7 October 2013 22:07 (ten years ago) link

no shame in that!

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Monday, 7 October 2013 23:05 (ten years ago) link

I am a big believer in Buying Yourself a Present when you have to undergo unpleasant things. I still owe myself for seven trips to the dentist in the past two months.

quincie, Monday, 7 October 2013 23:26 (ten years ago) link

LOL now Im imagining drudgesirens lighting up and going WOOT WOOT in my belly and it is making me roffle much.

taxi tomato or bag tomato (Trayce), Tuesday, 8 October 2013 00:07 (ten years ago) link

xp - i chose my dentist based on his proximity to my fave record store and book store

excited about the intentional phallus-y (sarahell), Tuesday, 8 October 2013 00:27 (ten years ago) link

^^^smart lady!

quincie, Tuesday, 8 October 2013 00:29 (ten years ago) link

and i did not give 1 (one) fuck that the right side of my mouth was swollen while paying for my records

excited about the intentional phallus-y (sarahell), Tuesday, 8 October 2013 00:32 (ten years ago) link

I chose my dentist based on the same criteria! Sisterz.

Untt (La Lechera), Tuesday, 8 October 2013 00:33 (ten years ago) link

the wonderful donut shop that made that corner the best shopping corner has since closed. it had chocolate chip donuts. ba "that girls only thread is brilliant" mcquern made a negative remark about the deliciousness of said donuts. THE NERVE!!

excited about the intentional phallus-y (sarahell), Tuesday, 8 October 2013 00:35 (ten years ago) link

I used to have very obvious ovulation symptoms but now I am not ovulating thanks to good ol fuckin thyroid friend, so I can never really tell what's going on.

homosexual II, Tuesday, 8 October 2013 02:19 (ten years ago) link

I am both looking forward to going off the pill (in about eight months) and am not looking forward to going off the pill. Will the PMS be better or worse? Will the period itself be more or less painful/messy (I has fibroids)? Will aspects of my libido which I miss (TMI) return? Am I perimenopausal or totally menopausal? Who knows?

I have pretty much zero regrets about being XX, except for the XX organs part. It might be different had I ever wanted to use said organs for procreative purposes, but that is not the case. So I'd be happy to donate my reproductive organs to science, except that the surgery creates its own goddamn problems.

So, not penis envy, but. . . not-having-these-parts envy.

quincie, Tuesday, 8 October 2013 04:04 (ten years ago) link

why do people go on and off the pill (apart from babby-making)? i have never been on it.

excited about the intentional phallus-y (sarahell), Tuesday, 8 October 2013 04:06 (ten years ago) link

I'd give anything to go back on the damn pill. It got rid of all my symptoms with no side fx. But im told as a smoker it is a Bad Idea.

Yes, I know I could quit smoking.

taxi tomato or bag tomato (Trayce), Tuesday, 8 October 2013 04:09 (ten years ago) link

In my case, I've been on it for decades for birth-control and period-management purposes. Spouse (current) is totally fine with getting snipped, and would have done so earlier had I not been so hesitant about quitting the pill for period/PMS-management purposes.

Now that my period is kind of a pain in the ass/ovary/brain even WITH the pill, I figure it is time to investigate off-pill life. I was also recently deemed pre-hypertensive; going off the pill may fix that with no other action on my part. Also, I may or may not be past fertility--hard to know, really, so may not need the birth control aspect.

So, I dunno. Gonna get off and deal. Hopefully it will be totally easy sailing! That would be awesome.

quincie, Tuesday, 8 October 2013 04:13 (ten years ago) link

i would go off it occasionally just to double check what my 'normal' flow is like etc, to see if it's more or less painful etc so that I have something to measure against if anything goes weird. but that's just me

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 8 October 2013 04:48 (ten years ago) link

i went on and off it because of varying levels of tolerance of side effects over time. it made me a weird emotionless zombie. sometimes the tradeoff was worth it, sometimes it wasnt

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 8 October 2013 05:00 (ten years ago) link

I went on it because of ovulation pain and the contraception was a bonus, stayed on it for years but changed brands a whole lot of times because of unpleasant side-effects, now I'm single and not needing the contraception so I thought I'd come off it to See What It Was Like

(i.e. not have the one remaining side-effect of migraines on the off week, also suspected it wasn't good for my mood problems - but my mood doesn't seem much better and apparently I still get hormonal migraines even now I'm not on it. but my periods are a whole lot lighter, which I wasn't really expecting)

Surprised so many other people have ovulation pain! When I told my doc I was sent for a scan to check for cysts/fibroids, so that might be something to be aware of. Didn't find any conclusive evidence, which is good but at the time I was just noticing I had most of the symptoms of PCOS so in a way it was like, well, cyst symptoms and no cysts, now what?

I have a lot to say abt this but gotta wait til after class. Basically roxy otm re zombie but it depends on how emotional your baseline is. Will explain later!

Untt (La Lechera), Tuesday, 8 October 2013 12:16 (ten years ago) link

I went on the pill for birth control and off when I wasn't in an LTR that would lead to comdomless sex, then off again for good a few years ago bc I had been on for so long I wondered what life/me/my period would be like without it plus planning to try to have a baby.

Off bcp, my period was much heavier and my libido was much more present. My face broke out more. Maybe more PMS but it's hard to say what is coming off the pill and what is getting older, not to mention the years of fertility nonsense which is basically dump trucks full of hormones.

I'm not sure what my post-baby plan will be. I don't want to go back on the pill. I don't want more children. Sometimes I wish I could have a twofer c-section and hysterectomy bc I would love to be done with my period, too, but only in fantasy land where such a contingency wouldn't arise bc of a major issue (or make recovery more difficult).

carl agatha, Tuesday, 8 October 2013 12:49 (ten years ago) link

i have a few min before i have to leave so why not

Will the PMS be better or worse? Will the period itself be more or less painful/messy (I has fibroids)? Will aspects of my libido which I miss (TMI) return?
**all answers IME**
worse (but the drudge sirens genuinely help as a warning and the crying doesn't really bother me much)
more (i don't have fibroids, but definitely + painful, + messy)
yes (feel like my old self again!)

In sum, the transition off was a nightmare, but there were other things going on at the time so I blame the confluence of events more than anything. Overall, glad I stopped (after many years on hormonal bc) because I feel like my old self again in a number of positive ways.

Untt (La Lechera), Tuesday, 8 October 2013 12:52 (ten years ago) link

Thank you, LL! It is helpful to hear that yeah, some stuff may be worse, but that there can still be an overall benefit. Honestly if the fibroids make it too hard for me to be off BCP, then it is probably time to do something about them directly.

I was thinking the other day that were money no object, I would manage my PMS by checking into a nice hotel for two nights all by myself, drink wine, eat cheese and room service, watch bad TV, cry in the shower, have a massage. Maybe I will just try to re-create this environment at home as much as possible.

quincie, Tuesday, 8 October 2013 15:41 (ten years ago) link

I have long argued that a woman directed modern Red Tent set up would not go amiss.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 8 October 2013 16:48 (ten years ago) link

I've been on it for about a decade and thinking of taking a break from it, but yeah, kind of interested yet worried to see what'll happen. It's made most things way better.

kinder, Tuesday, 8 October 2013 17:45 (ten years ago) link

I was a wreck on the pill. Gained a lot of weight, craved greasy food, sex drive disappeared, made me moody. And the side effects from stopping taking it were not pleasant. Massive hair loss, depression, horrific acne. I'd never go on it again.

homosexual II, Tuesday, 8 October 2013 18:05 (ten years ago) link

it's funny how varied the side effects are. i had so much better control of my emotions and better skin! i feel kind of neutral about going back on it though. or i just don't want to go to the dr to get it.

single white hairball (harbl), Wednesday, 9 October 2013 00:43 (ten years ago) link

Next month I shall be having an Rx-free Mexican BCP experience; will report back. Wonder if I can get Nuvaring OTC here? Maybe that would be a good transition from BCP to no hormonal contraceptives?

quincie, Wednesday, 9 October 2013 04:08 (ten years ago) link

I did that and the transition was still tough, but as I mentioned there were other factors involved. Ultimately it wasn't that big of a deal, just kinda uncomf/ shitty for a while.

Untt (La Lechera), Wednesday, 9 October 2013 13:35 (ten years ago) link

Gah I have a big yellow bruise on one boob from being walked into by Young People who were taking up the entire sidewalk walking 4 abreast (do you see) and there was nowhere else to go plus I was walking briskly towards a bus, and it hurts, and also kind of itches cz I guess it's a bit swollen and bra seams are digging into it. These appendages are so inconvenient amirite

I don't know why I'm telling the internet this, no. I felt like venting and who else could I tell this to? Sorry, thread.

the supreme personality of Godhead : a summary study (a passing spacecadet), Thursday, 10 October 2013 22:25 (ten years ago) link

No apologies needed on this thread! Yesterday I went snorkeling and the spouse mentioned afterward that "we should get you a BCD" (buoyancy control device) and I'm all "I'VE GOT YOUR BCDS RIGHT HERE BUDDY" *grabs boobs* *lols at self*

quincie, Thursday, 10 October 2013 22:41 (ten years ago) link

<3

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 10 October 2013 22:46 (ten years ago) link

god i hate it when people walk even 2 abreast down a sidewalk

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 10 October 2013 22:53 (ten years ago) link

^^

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 10 October 2013 22:54 (ten years ago) link

everyone should walk single file always

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 10 October 2013 22:54 (ten years ago) link

Yeah this is def the thread to talk about boobs!

carl agatha, Thursday, 10 October 2013 23:30 (ten years ago) link

boobs are always walking two abreast

single white hairball (harbl), Thursday, 10 October 2013 23:31 (ten years ago) link

ha

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 10 October 2013 23:33 (ten years ago) link

well, usually anyway. /downer

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 10 October 2013 23:37 (ten years ago) link

i knew that was coming *sad trombone*

single white hairball (harbl), Thursday, 10 October 2013 23:39 (ten years ago) link

sometimes i feel like im walking 4 abreast

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 10 October 2013 23:43 (ten years ago) link

*looks down top*

Never mind.

aldi young dudes (suzy), Thursday, 10 October 2013 23:46 (ten years ago) link

i have this crazy bra that hoists my boobs way up and ridic OUT to the side like almost under my armpits (also it's pointed like a 50's maidenform)
whenever I wear it i feel like i should put flashing lights on my shoulders so i dont knock anyone over

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 10 October 2013 23:48 (ten years ago) link

ok the mental image i have of that is very lol

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 10 October 2013 23:51 (ten years ago) link

it includes the drudge sirens on the shoulders

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 10 October 2013 23:51 (ten years ago) link

*THIS VEHICLE IS RE-VER-SING! BEEP BEEP!*

aldi young dudes (suzy), Thursday, 10 October 2013 23:52 (ten years ago) link

and little flags like you tie onto the ends of lumber

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 11 October 2013 00:03 (ten years ago) link

lololol
omg

like a cockeyed pug

Untt (La Lechera), Friday, 11 October 2013 01:13 (ten years ago) link

but boobs

Untt (La Lechera), Friday, 11 October 2013 01:13 (ten years ago) link

totally

also dying irl

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 11 October 2013 01:13 (ten years ago) link

I lost a bunch of weight recently and what little boobs i had have gone with the weight and I had to downsize my bra and it sucked.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Friday, 11 October 2013 01:32 (ten years ago) link

:(

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 11 October 2013 01:43 (ten years ago) link

i'll ysi some of mine

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 11 October 2013 01:44 (ten years ago) link

tbh i was gonna ask but it seemed inappropriate ;)

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Friday, 11 October 2013 02:05 (ten years ago) link

lol

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 11 October 2013 02:07 (ten years ago) link

I would offer you some of mine, but they are currently serving as a flotation device so y'know I need them so as to not drown and stuff.

quincie, Friday, 11 October 2013 03:24 (ten years ago) link

calling carl a: I forget in which thread you mentioned the 8 minute meditation book, but I dled the kindle version and am going to give it a go. I am notorious for giving up a meditation practice within 7 to 10 days; can we be meditation support buddies?

Which week are you on?

Namaste and all that shit,

Q.

quincie, Thursday, 17 October 2013 14:36 (ten years ago) link

anyhow this is related to the no boys thread b/c I have got to do something (or many things) about this hormonal roller coaster situation. It is affecting my daily life in a not so good way.

quincie, Thursday, 17 October 2013 14:38 (ten years ago) link

I did not mention that book! I don't even know what you're talking about, but meditation has been suggested to me to deal with high risk pregnancy-related anxiety so I am interested.

carl agatha, Thursday, 17 October 2013 14:44 (ten years ago) link

q, how so?

also if you have trouble concentrating on meditation, i recommend incorporating a smell element (essential oil under yr nose, incense, something). it helps me get in the mood.

Untt (La Lechera), Thursday, 17 October 2013 14:47 (ten years ago) link

oh huh, I thought it was you, carl! Lemme search to see.

LL, I tend to be kind of perfectionistic when starting new things, so the minute something because "not perfect" (schedule change, on missed day, etc.) I tend to abandon efforts entirely. See also: yoga, learning Spanish.

I need accept that in these cases, "some" is better than "none" and "good enough" is just fine.

I like the smells idea, thank u for suggesting.

quincie, Thursday, 17 October 2013 15:04 (ten years ago) link

Your meditation phrase: the perfect is the enemy of the good.

carl agatha, Thursday, 17 October 2013 15:05 (ten years ago) link

perfectionism is self-defeating behavior -- once you start to look at it that way, it doesn't look so perfect.
(this not-news brought to you from the person who cried during her second drum lesson because she was frustrated)

Untt (La Lechera), Thursday, 17 October 2013 15:07 (ten years ago) link

Oh it was Jaq who was doing the 8 minute meditation thing! Jaq, are you here? CALLING ALL JAQ!

xpost that would be perfect for me, except that I would worry that I had not chosen the perfect meditation phrase.

It's funny, because I'm not like this in all areas of my life--as an editor, I would frequently coach writers who were charged with rewriting something horrible provided by a healthcare professional with "just make it better, it doesn't have to be the perfection you would have created had you started from scratch!"

quincie, Thursday, 17 October 2013 15:07 (ten years ago) link

it takes effort to retrain yr brain
give it time! and effort. and practice.

Untt (La Lechera), Thursday, 17 October 2013 15:09 (ten years ago) link

this is the big lesson i have learned this year btw, so it's not like i'm comin atcha from some high place
i have to remind myself of this every single day.

Untt (La Lechera), Thursday, 17 October 2013 15:15 (ten years ago) link

it is good to know I am not the only one! Thanks, LL :)

quincie, Thursday, 17 October 2013 16:32 (ten years ago) link

A tall woman just sat across from me in this coffee shop to study her "Explaining Psychological Statistics" book. Quincie, is that you?

carl agatha, Thursday, 17 October 2013 17:13 (ten years ago) link

I wish! Alas, I am still south of the border!

quincie, Thursday, 17 October 2013 19:58 (ten years ago) link

Sure do wish I had a coffee shop to study in.

quincie, Thursday, 17 October 2013 19:59 (ten years ago) link

i wish i had a coffee

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 17 October 2013 20:54 (ten years ago) link

my co-worker has this sign up that says "PERFECT is the enemy of DONE" or sthing which is corny but I like it

kinder, Thursday, 17 October 2013 21:09 (ten years ago) link

So after being on thyroid meds two months and a crazy diet, my hormone panel is actually WORSE than it was before! My estrogen is really low, as is my progesterone.

I had my blood drawn on Day 21, and my estrogen was only 47 (two months ago it was 61), and my progesterone is 11 (two months ago it was 15).

The good news is my thyroid antibodies did go down quite a bit.

homosexual II, Thursday, 17 October 2013 22:43 (ten years ago) link

man, weird! do you have any hypotheses about why it would be worse?

good that there was some good news too, tho.

i STILL haven't gotten my results back, and now i definitely won't get them back til at least monday. aaargh!

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 17 October 2013 23:01 (ten years ago) link

my doctor today explained that low is actually better than too high - which causes water retention, migraines, horrible PMS, etc. So she said its not a bad thing.

homosexual II, Friday, 18 October 2013 19:58 (ten years ago) link

FINALLY got my results back, but the results are confusing and equivocal. I tested positive for one factor that is positive in 30% of people with lupus, 20-30% of people with scleroderma/mixed connective tissue disease and in only 10% of people with rheumatoid. However, I tested negative for the other lupus indications. My doc suspects this means I am in the early stages of lupus, but I have to come back in SIX MONTHS to get another test - if the amount of the factor in my blood has increased, then we'll be pretty certain that I have lupus. If not...? I don't know. In the meantime I get to just continue not knowing why I have horrible pain in all my joints, what's happening to them or what I can do to help alleviate it.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 22 October 2013 00:04 (ten years ago) link

Sorry my last sentence was so melodramatic, lol. I'm kinda POed! I was really looking forward to some conclusive answers, but I know these things are sometimes really hard to nail down, especially auto-immune disorders.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 22 October 2013 00:05 (ten years ago) link

CRAP. Sorry. And there's no other monitoring you can do in those six months?

ljubljana, Tuesday, 22 October 2013 00:12 (ten years ago) link

I guess I'm wondering why they couldn't offer you a trial of steroids to see if it helps? Wouldn't that help confirm an auto-immunity dx? IINAD, tho. We need a gbx, too bad he isn't allowed in the room ;)

quincie, Tuesday, 22 October 2013 01:28 (ten years ago) link

But for real, I'm super bummed for you and HII having to deal with health crap. I mean right now my biggest complaint is that my boobs hurt, and that tiny complaint is enough to piss me off!

quincie, Tuesday, 22 October 2013 01:29 (ten years ago) link

ugh roxy that suuucks. my mum has rheumatoid, I know how exhausting and stressful all-over joint pain can be. I wish there was some way you could get some intermediary relief.

i don't suppose you could go back and be all 'yo doc help a girl out'

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 22 October 2013 02:53 (ten years ago) link

I'm sorry, roxy. That is the pits. Not knowing would drive me bananas.

Can you ask your doc for some pain meds in the meantime? It is not cool to have to live with horrible pain!!!

carl agatha, Tuesday, 22 October 2013 13:44 (ten years ago) link

Rox, I definitely recommend seeing a dietician for your autoimmune condition. A lot of it can be alleviated if you can heal your gut (easier said than done, it sounds like it's like a 2-3 process of getting it in a good spot again).

homosexual II, Tuesday, 22 October 2013 19:59 (ten years ago) link

2-3 YEAR process, that is.

homosexual II, Tuesday, 22 October 2013 19:59 (ten years ago) link

meanwhile! I am going to pretend I know what I am talking about, and say VITAMIN A, D, & C are super important and critical as well as essential fatty acids. I'd take 5,000 IU's of Vitamin D daily, and incorporate fermented cod liver oil into your life. Try making your own bone broth (very important for gut healing--especially the gelatin). I really need to do better about these things, too. And organ meats wouldn't be a bad call either.

homosexual II, Tuesday, 22 October 2013 20:02 (ten years ago) link

I'm in danger of going completely over the brink into quackery here but in addition to making sure I get a lot of broccoli and greens, I'm considering taking the spoonful of raw honey a day method. Not yet convinced it has to be manuka honey, but at $15 or so, it's try-able.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Tuesday, 22 October 2013 20:15 (ten years ago) link

i am going to have to disagree a bit with homo ii here: while it's important that you get sufficient vitamins in your daily diet, taking extra supplements may not particularly help. The body is much more efficient at taking in vitamins from food than it is from pills. There's some argument for taking vitamin D as that can be hard to get in within one's regular diet. The US office of dietary supplements recommends, for example, that an adult of over 71 (ie whose bones are increasingly brittle) gets 800 IU per day. (http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminD-QuickFacts/ )

It's been found in recent studies that vitamin supplements (esp in the form of multivitamins), rather than extending one's life, may in fact shorten it: http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/07/the-vitamin-myth-why-we-think-we-need-supplements/277947/
I still find this kind of hard to believe and weird - even thinking that multivitamins did nothing, i would have thought that there's be a correlation to people making attempts to live healthily. But apparently not! Perhaps it's related to what's been found in another study, where taking vitamin supplements can make you feel like you've done something 'healthy' so it's ok to take other health risks like smoking: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/aug/26/bad-science-vitamin-pills-lead-you-to-take-risks

can i make a sincere plea that this not turn into "your nutritional choices can save/kill you" thread? tbh it makes me totally neurotic!

sweat pea (La Lechera), Tuesday, 22 October 2013 21:00 (ten years ago) link

There's some argument for taking vitamin D as that can be hard to get in within one's regular diet.

That's what the doctors told me -- apparently I have a serious vitamin D deficiency, which apparently is something that can cause symptoms of depression -- they said even if you gorge yourself on salmon, almonds, orange juice and dairy, and sit out in the sun for all your waking hours, it won't provide all the vitamin D you need.

blended haircrut (sarahell), Tuesday, 22 October 2013 21:03 (ten years ago) link

sure, LL!

you = me, the deficient person

blended haircrut (sarahell), Tuesday, 22 October 2013 21:04 (ten years ago) link

(you can all feel free to ignore me as well -- i am not trying to control the convo)

sweat pea (La Lechera), Tuesday, 22 October 2013 21:08 (ten years ago) link

sorry - my post was in process before i saw yrs!

blended haircrut (sarahell), Tuesday, 22 October 2013 21:11 (ten years ago) link

i wasn't even referring to that! i just meant in general, i avoid the "nutrition nazi" threads for the same reason. i don't need more reasons to not eat things.

sweat pea (La Lechera), Tuesday, 22 October 2013 21:13 (ten years ago) link

i also generally object to the use of "nazi" in a jokey way but that's a separate issue ;)

sweat pea (La Lechera), Tuesday, 22 October 2013 21:13 (ten years ago) link

honestly i'm sorry i brought it up -- i think my tone was misread. i'm not angry, i'm just feeling low.

sweat pea (La Lechera), Tuesday, 22 October 2013 22:25 (ten years ago) link

Much like "tipping" and "restaurants in NYC," nutrition talk can take over ANY THREAD. ANY THREAD I TELLS YOU.

I'm having ehh...complicated thoughts this week about dating feminists.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Tuesday, 22 October 2013 22:54 (ten years ago) link

what does that mean? elaborate pls.

sweat pea (La Lechera), Tuesday, 22 October 2013 22:56 (ten years ago) link

an aside before IO's elaboration --

the other day i was out for a drink with a dear male friend (feminist in politics but probably wouldn't call self "feminist" because it's awkward when dudes do it) and his girlfriend, and when she said "i'm not a feminist" i swear i could feel his apologising eye turned on me. and then she talked about the discrimination and pigeonholing she feels she gets in the workplace and how she feels companies have to work harder to make things fair for women given childcare etc. and then we had a conversation about "lean in" where i carefully refrained from making any disparaging comments.

and then i went home and read that long faludi piece on everything that's wrong with lean in, but i thought - well, it's doing something for this woman, anyway.

I went on a little binge about it on the anorgasmic thread on ILTMI and some other thoughts that I didn't put there might develop into an actual piece? Like a blog posty thing. So I might not want to dissect them here yet, but I'll c&p this.

...as soon as someone becomes a project, as soon as I have to hold back and say only supportive things, as soon as I perceive that they need something from me, I absolutely cannot feel desire. I can imagine that I do in an alternate reality, but right there with the person I cannot. I just realized this lately on a 2nd or 3rd date w someone I was trying to be attracted to (which might not have happened anyway) but definitely was not going to happen when I started feeling like I had the power to hurt him. I wondered if this was inordinately selfish of me, but I feel a little more aligned with myself from that talk.

― Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Sunday, October 20, 2013 7:34 PM (2 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I started saying a long time ago that if I was going to have sex I at least wanted to be there for it, and not somewhere else or floating around the ceiling watching it or whatever. Actually achieving that has not really...happened. Partly because I go a year at a time without meeting anyone I want to date (who wants to date me) at all, so it's an extremely slow process.

I feel like a bunch of difft things lately have led up to me making a big jump in understanding some truths today. But in relation to the article about young people in Japan, I think...when you start realizing that nothing except equality is acceptable, it may be the case that everything suddenly becomes like 100x more difficult because everything you do is swimming upstream against the status quo. That amount of work is not always/often? going to be worth whatever the perceived benefits are.

Also just to say it again, human needs w/r/t sex and intimacy are amazingly varied, I grok that more and more. The "new normal" can be...ANYTHING.

People have introduced me lately to this guy Jay Smooth who has inspections of racism on youtube, and my favorite part is the "personal hygiene" approach to not being racist in which he compares it to brushing your teeth--upkeep, something you have to do every day or you lose the benefits of the act. So when you slip up and do or say something kinda racist, you're not doomed, you're not necessarily a bad person or irredeemable from some terrible hell, you just forgot to brush your teeth and you should do that before you talk to anyone else.

carl agatha commented once on what a huge amount of work it is to be in a ltr/marriage in which both ppl are committed to nullifying patriarchy and its effects on them, and I've been trying to fully grasp that idea ever since she said it, and I think I just understood some part of that.

But now we're really into a different thread entirely.

― Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Sunday, October 20, 2013 10:10 PM (2 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

All originally spurred by this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa0RUmGTCYY

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Tuesday, 22 October 2013 23:11 (ten years ago) link

Haha, c#M! Do you know, "lean in" has become the punchline to so many jokes among my feminist friends?? The other day they were throwing out phrases that people have been using in motivational talks, all taken from sayings like "decisions get made by those who show up." There was this long string of things they were mocking that went, like, "Show up, something something, pull your pants up, lean in, PROFIT!" To general hilarity.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Tuesday, 22 October 2013 23:16 (ten years ago) link

But I already read those posts :-/
Where you gonna post yr blog post?

sweat pea (La Lechera), Tuesday, 22 October 2013 23:18 (ten years ago) link

Post post post post
I need a muzzle.

sweat pea (La Lechera), Tuesday, 22 October 2013 23:19 (ten years ago) link

Haha okay! Um if I do it, it would be on my wordpress thing that I've only used like once, probably? I dunno.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Tuesday, 22 October 2013 23:22 (ten years ago) link

(just a quick aside, even after eating pretty much perfectly I am still iron and vitamin D deficient in a sad way.. those of us with autoimmune conditions are often deficient in things like these, and if you are tested and are low, I don't think taking supplements hurts. Even after taking 10,000 IU of Vitamin D daily, I am still only at 30).

Okay! Nutrition talk over.

homosexual II, Tuesday, 22 October 2013 23:23 (ten years ago) link

i wonder how one balances the work of being in a relationship where you're both trying nullify patriarchy, against the work of being in a relationship where only one of you is conscious of the strain it's putting on you.

I think the second state of affairs is just "normal"???

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Tuesday, 22 October 2013 23:30 (ten years ago) link

I mean hopefully not for any of us but for a lot of people? Or maybe "normal" is when neither party consciously realizes it and one of them is compensating all the time without acknowledgement?

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Tuesday, 22 October 2013 23:34 (ten years ago) link

well i guess with our old friend "false consciousness" neither of you could be conscious of where the strain is arising from.

xp yes, like that

also, y'know, "benevolent sexism"

Also I want to like this new superhero tv show Arrow but the main female character's name is the same as mine and her tv show dad keep being controlling and patronizing to her and using her name to give her lectures about how he's going to make decisions for her and it's really bothering me.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Tuesday, 22 October 2013 23:38 (ten years ago) link

Ahhhhh you love it!! A superhero with your name! Condescending parents! :)

sweat pea (La Lechera), Tuesday, 22 October 2013 23:40 (ten years ago) link

She's not the superhero, UNFORTUNATELY, but she is a do-gooder public interest lawyer.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Tuesday, 22 October 2013 23:44 (ten years ago) link

I was thinking recently about how much i hate that old canard "if it was men who got pregnant, there'd be [fantastical image of kindness to pregnant people]" - if it was men who got pregnant* then the social effects of pregnancy and childcare historically removing your gender from other social/economic activity would apply to them! even the men who did not get pregnant would be thought of in the terms of being from the fecund gender! this is not helpful!

* i'm not talking about, e.g. trans men, who are a different case, because of how intersecting social and economic pressures affect them specifically.

xposts some of my comics-favouring friends on twitter are v irate about how marvel's not planning to do a female superhero film for at least three years. where are the female superheroes ;_;

Oh :-/

I'm not really into superheroes of either gender but I was happy for you for a sec there!!

sweat pea (La Lechera), Tuesday, 22 October 2013 23:50 (ten years ago) link

(Sorry on phone, that was re tv show)

sweat pea (La Lechera), Tuesday, 22 October 2013 23:50 (ten years ago) link

Haha it's okay! Public interest lawyers are like irl superheroes basically so although she doesn't get the good parts of the story, there are more positive interpretations. Also tbh the hero character's approach to being a superhero is demonstrably flawed from the first ep = ain't nothing to be jealous of there.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Tuesday, 22 October 2013 23:54 (ten years ago) link

So, in comparison to my (no BC) short, painful, rather aggressive periods of 3-5 days each month, this month it has so far gone on 8 days, no pain, no sign of easing up, less ... er, flow, but steady. 8 days is WAY outside my usual bodyclock. Should I worry? Sometimes I think I might be perimenopausal but the GP always poohpoohs me when I bring it up even tho my mum's started in her mid 40s.

taxi tomato or bag tomato (Trayce), Wednesday, 23 October 2013 00:03 (ten years ago) link

...sorry for the random interjection heh.

taxi tomato or bag tomato (Trayce), Wednesday, 23 October 2013 00:06 (ten years ago) link

I was thinking recently about how much i hate that old canard "if it was men who got pregnant, there'd be [fantastical image of kindness to pregnant people]" - if it was men who got pregnant* then the social effects of pregnancy and childcare historically removing your gender from other social/economic activity would apply to them! even the men who did not get pregnant would be thought of in the terms of being from the fecund gender! this is not helpful!

"If men got pregnant, you'd be able to get abortions out of vending machines" <-- this kind of thing, yeah. I can understanding getting fed up with it!

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Wednesday, 23 October 2013 00:07 (ten years ago) link

Much like "tipping" and "restaurants in NYC," nutrition talk can take over ANY THREAD. ANY THREAD I TELLS YOU.

What would happen if we had thread about tipping at a health food restaurant in NYC? Let's never do that.

tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, 23 October 2013 01:06 (ten years ago) link

in orbit, my current television namesake has a cursed vagina... that kills!!

At least they spell the name correctly.

tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, 23 October 2013 01:08 (ten years ago) link

trayce, I might bring that up to a doc, yeah.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 23 October 2013 01:09 (ten years ago) link

xp Wait, I don't know what show that is!!

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Wednesday, 23 October 2013 01:10 (ten years ago) link

It's the current season of American Horror Story.

tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, 23 October 2013 01:11 (ten years ago) link

Oohhhh I've never seen it before.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Wednesday, 23 October 2013 01:17 (ten years ago) link

Wait wasnt that the plot of "Liquid Sky"?

taxi tomato or bag tomato (Trayce), Wednesday, 23 October 2013 02:54 (ten years ago) link

And a TV series here too, sort of (bout a chick whos ex's all die on her)

taxi tomato or bag tomato (Trayce), Wednesday, 23 October 2013 02:54 (ten years ago) link

Is that Lost Girl, because that show is awesome.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Wednesday, 23 October 2013 03:51 (ten years ago) link

Ha, no! Its "Laid", but theres some interesting parallels.

taxi tomato or bag tomato (Trayce), Wednesday, 23 October 2013 04:00 (ten years ago) link

haha my current tv show namesake is a british clone

blended haircrut (sarahell), Wednesday, 23 October 2013 04:44 (ten years ago) link

My only TV namesake ever was a spook!

ljubljana, Wednesday, 23 October 2013 12:26 (ten years ago) link

Mine was an illiterate policewoman on The Bill.

poor fishless bastard (Zora), Wednesday, 23 October 2013 13:09 (ten years ago) link

apparently i have a TV namesake in one of the old mobile suit gundam anime series!! i hope she is a space robot pilot.

update: she IS a space robot pilot. also the princess of an aristocratic-mercantile family. oh gundam.

<3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3

My imaginary life, ages 5-12.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Wednesday, 23 October 2013 13:49 (ten years ago) link

Well, that plus roller-skating.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Wednesday, 23 October 2013 13:49 (ten years ago) link

<3 Spooks and orphan black :)

kinder, Wednesday, 23 October 2013 15:39 (ten years ago) link

I'm just happy they are using the proper and best spelling.

tokyo rosemary, Thursday, 24 October 2013 00:15 (ten years ago) link

worst period ever

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 24 October 2013 02:57 (ten years ago) link

my sister just brought me the world's largest candy bar, though. i demanded a chocolate rendering of the marble arch but she did her best

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 24 October 2013 02:58 (ten years ago) link

Mines still going. 9 days now. Its weirding me OUT.

taxi tomato or bag tomato (Trayce), Thursday, 24 October 2013 04:24 (ten years ago) link

:(

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 24 October 2013 04:26 (ten years ago) link

I better bloody not be pregnant.

taxi tomato or bag tomato (Trayce), Thursday, 24 October 2013 04:28 (ten years ago) link

trayce, you should see a doctor imo. if it's twice as long as your normal period, that would say that something's up. even if it turns out to be nothing, better to find out now than let it go on and have it be something ungood

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 24 October 2013 05:40 (ten years ago) link

Yar. I will tomorrow if things are still happening. I had a papsmear v recently tho and all was well so im not freaking out.

taxi tomato or bag tomato (Trayce), Thursday, 24 October 2013 05:41 (ten years ago) link

you could have been pregnant and just had a miscarriage :/ Or... it could just be nothing.

my awful periods have finally started to lighten up (note: they're still terrible, just less terrible) thanks to that hysteroscopy and polypectomy I had! YAYYYY

homosexual II, Thursday, 24 October 2013 18:07 (ten years ago) link

My doctor is telling me ANY hormonal birth control method is totally not okay for me. She suggested the Paraguard.

Anyone had that here? Doesn't it make your periods crazy heavy? Argh, mine are already heavy enough...

homosexual II, Thursday, 24 October 2013 18:08 (ten years ago) link

I loooooove it but yeah it made my periods heavier. Or...this might be a weird way to describe it but it made them wetter?? Like I felt the blood was thinner and soaked through more stuff (whereas I guess before it was...thicker but there was less of it?)

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Thursday, 24 October 2013 19:00 (ten years ago) link

It has leveled out now, probably took almost a year though. And I'm still a little bit heavier than I was pre-IUD--but not the magic gushers of the first while.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Thursday, 24 October 2013 19:00 (ten years ago) link

Because if anyone knows where to find that rainbow magic unicorn gushing period wave img, that's basically what it was like minus the rainbows, magic, and unicorns.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Thursday, 24 October 2013 19:04 (ten years ago) link

That's not what I was thinking of but it'll do.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Thursday, 24 October 2013 19:14 (ten years ago) link

Oh yeah that one.

carl agatha, Thursday, 24 October 2013 19:19 (ten years ago) link

i've never seen that
i like the one from the overlook better

sweat pea (La Lechera), Thursday, 24 October 2013 19:33 (ten years ago) link

I like the munchy tampon monsters in the 2nd one.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Thursday, 24 October 2013 19:43 (ten years ago) link

totally classic image

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 24 October 2013 20:13 (ten years ago) link

my sister has been going through awful thyroid-related stuff for the past year, too - complicated by diabetes - but i've documented most of it already in the familyproblems thread. to top off her list of illnesses/diagnoses/injuries-due-to-bad-care, today i got a msg from my mum that the recent laser surgery they performed on her eyes (bc she got some weird spontaneous burst capillary or something), which was supposed to have a side effect of improving her eye sight, has actually over-cooked her eyes and now, at the age of 26, she needs an $800 prescription for progressive lenses.

just1n3, Friday, 25 October 2013 01:47 (ten years ago) link

Today I purchased BCPs from a Mexican pharmacy (no Rx required, 20 USD) PRO: available, cheap. CON: do not match my former pills at all. But seemed like the best option to get me through a month before I'm back in the states and can go to PP for the first time in like 20 years (I only have catastrophic insurance atm)!

quincie, Friday, 25 October 2013 02:09 (ten years ago) link

jfc your poor sister, j! I hope someday soon the tide turns and the rest of her life is the best any life has ever been, because she seems to have the worst luck! :(

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Friday, 25 October 2013 05:08 (ten years ago) link

Q how much is the bc? When I used to be on it (no work insurance) they were $7 a pack with a looming price increase to $10 on the horizon around the time I stopped taking them. But, Canada. It was undoubtedly subsidized.

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Friday, 25 October 2013 05:09 (ten years ago) link

^^ ~3-4 years ago I went off the pill iirc

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Friday, 25 October 2013 05:10 (ten years ago) link

Someone said something incomprehensible to me on the stairs at work which I only worked out was probably a secret woman code for "your bra is showing" when they added "did you forget what colour you were wearing this morning?" and now I feel a little self-conscious.

(it's a dark top which also doesn't match either of the two bras I have in nominally the same colour so I just wore a black bra, is that so wrong? apparently)

I suppose we have a special bra thread I could have posted that on but I'm going to hide here in the girls' corner and try not to move my shoulders for the rest of the day.

i was watching this fantastic satyajit ray film recently, about a woman who goes out to work because her family can't get by on one income, and she's a door-to-door saleswoman of domestic machinery to wealthy respectable women, and every time the camera's behind her you can see her bra through her choli and it's totally not an issue.

so eh, whatever, you are like this amazingly beautiful heroine, out in the world of work with a visible bra, people just gotta deal.

admittedly i am in a v 'at least you are wearing a bra!!' mood, because this morning i got up and put on a wash and then realised that all of my bras were in that wash (i threw out loads of old underwear recently and have not restocked yet). and so today is... weird-feeling.

I don't mind showing the straps or it showing through a flimsy fabric (I try not to wear see-through tops but that's more because of the areas of flesh not hidden by my bra tbh) but the combination of realising the v-neck goes a little lower than I thought plus "oh you must be colour-blind"-level comments = a little more than I felt ready to cope with at 9:30 in the morning

now it's not 9:30 so yeah, other people better deal

ah yes, end-of-week laundry problems

People who care about fashion tell me that blue & black are fine together these days, also people round here go to the shops with their pants showing. I know work is different, but we live in visible-lingerie times.

poor fishless bastard (Zora), Friday, 25 October 2013 12:39 (ten years ago) link

Listen, I used to work with a nice girl from Minnesota who would wear like nice dress pants with a waffle-knit long underwear top and a white bra underneath. Not only was the top massively inappropriate for the bottoms (truly wtf) but every inch of her bra was visible through the waffle.

Apparently her boss never so much as raised an eyebrow and one of her co-workers was confused that I thought this was remarkable.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Friday, 25 October 2013 13:16 (ten years ago) link

I can only file this under "People: Wtf?"

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Friday, 25 October 2013 13:17 (ten years ago) link

I know work is different, but we live in visible-lingerie times.

otm!!
when i realized this and stopped fretting about whether or not people had to suffer through seeing my bra straps/body, i started feeling a lot more comfortable about getting dressed every day!

i totally know how it could be embarrassing or whatever, but this is a serious case of DNS

sweat pea (La Lechera), Friday, 25 October 2013 13:38 (ten years ago) link

if I didn't wear blue with black or brown with black, and I didn't wear purple because that is for mad old catladies (why yes hello) and I didn't wear all black because lol goths, then that rules out basically everything I've worn for the past 15 years except pyjamas, and I hear pyjamas in public are frowned upon too

im finding it v surprising that someone would even note that your bra was visible

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Friday, 25 October 2013 18:16 (ten years ago) link

Yeah, unless it was in a "heads up, your zipper is down" kind of way, it is a really annoying thing to say.

carl agatha, Friday, 25 October 2013 18:23 (ten years ago) link

it seems really old fashioned. like we're all walking around in terror that our slip might make an appearance

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Friday, 25 October 2013 18:30 (ten years ago) link

it says more about the person who said it than the person whose bra strap was showing
DNS, move on immediately

sweat pea (La Lechera), Friday, 25 October 2013 18:32 (ten years ago) link

I hate it when my cotton, nude colored, generic, ugly-utilitarian bra shows because it is so not attractive. Cute bras, yeah, so what if they show.

So a few weeks ago I mentioned that an ob-gyn delivered bad news to me. So I got a second opinion and did all the testing over. It was sent to the same lab and my results were negative for everything! I'm okay? I think I am, pretty sure, never had any issues, symptoms. This whole ordeal just makes that doctor seem creepier. I am complaining to the medical board because of how inappropriate he was doing the pap, but as for the test results...lab to blame? Human error? I am complaining about how he handled the whole situation as well, being so discouraging of a 2nd opinion and just a real asshole.

Another odd thing was my new doctor received results in a week while creepy doctor didn't call me about my supposedly, super serious test results for three weeks. Same lab!

*tera, Friday, 25 October 2013 23:21 (ten years ago) link

i'm glad you're complaining. the results thing is weird, maybe creepy doc's lab was incompetent enough to mix up results

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Saturday, 26 October 2013 00:14 (ten years ago) link

Same lab the my new doctor used.

*tera, Saturday, 26 October 2013 01:36 (ten years ago) link

oh i missed that somehow, sorry.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Saturday, 26 October 2013 01:46 (ten years ago) link

Maybe whoever sent off the specimens got it all wrong at his office.

*tera, Saturday, 26 October 2013 02:25 (ten years ago) link

As much as docs like to blame stuff on front office, the front office is THE LLC (i.e., the doc's) responsibility. He/she is responsible for the front office staff and the management of the practice. Nice try with the "blaming the office staff" (not directed at your case specifically, tera, just in general). That is 100% bullshit because this is YOUR staff and YOU are responsible for their performance. "But I didn't go to med school to learn how to run an office" does not exempt you from having your company run well.

I get soooooo pissed at the blame-the-office-staff thing. You are the CEO and/or partner in your practice, take fucking responsibility and fix it, or accept that YOU are incompetent.

quincie, Saturday, 26 October 2013 05:30 (ten years ago) link

2.5 weeks, still bleedin. not pregnant. blood tests n ultrasounds in my near future. yay.

taxi tomato or bag tomato (Trayce), Friday, 1 November 2013 08:35 (ten years ago) link

:(

I hope everything is okay! Also maybe take an iron supplement you poor thing.

carl agatha, Friday, 1 November 2013 12:17 (ten years ago) link

Oh bummers Trayce. Hope everything gets resolved quickly.

quincie, Friday, 1 November 2013 15:44 (ten years ago) link

otm. safe travels, and cosign iron supplement

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 2 November 2013 00:44 (ten years ago) link

Its got worse in the last 24 hours. I feel ok, but pretty sore and a bit run down. Doc gave me a scrip for some med that will make my blod clot more. I want a 2nd opinion from the pharmacist or something before I take it tho. Wouldnt a clotting med be bad for a smoker?

taxi tomato or bag tomato (Trayce), Sunday, 3 November 2013 22:38 (ten years ago) link

Good idea on the iron tho. I might make mysef a big steak for dinner.

taxi tomato or bag tomato (Trayce), Sunday, 3 November 2013 22:38 (ten years ago) link

oh man, i have no idea how to answer that question but i wish you the best of luck.

on a completely different note, i have been looking through my diaries. i started with a particularly bad one because i honestly couldn't remember what had really gone down during that period of my life, and then i went back to the first one, which started in 1986. that's the one where i saw dirty dancing and it affected me lol profoundly. my writing is huge and loopy and childish, but i was definitely going through some...hormonal changes.

then i read that whole thing, which took me from 7th gr through 10th gr. then today i found the one after that, which contained a detailed description of my first make out. i don't know if i feel old or disembodied or confused or what, but reading my goofy childish handwriting and trying to digest that i am that same person is making me feel suuuuuper weird.

i dunno, the whole thing is a bit much. not sure why i am putting myself through this?! i was an exhaustive cataloguer of my life and its details because i knew that no one else would remember all the things i wanted to remember (or care), so i guess what is kinda making my head spin is that in some visible-only-to-me ways, i haven't changed at all.

sweat pea (La Lechera), Sunday, 3 November 2013 23:35 (ten years ago) link

Oooh sometimes I hate reading old diaries and things. I found some stuff in a drawer cleaning up on the weekend and it was me writing whiny letters to an ex that I never sent. Made me feel gross bringing it all up again.

taxi tomato or bag tomato (Trayce), Monday, 4 November 2013 00:58 (ten years ago) link

I have all my old diaries but I don't know why. I don't want to read them and they are taking up valuable space. I can't bring myself to get rid of them, though.

carl agatha, Monday, 4 November 2013 01:09 (ten years ago) link

Don't get rid of them!! I kept mine because someone has to care about my life and that person is me! This is why I wrote everything down in the first place iirc.

sweat pea (La Lechera), Monday, 4 November 2013 01:16 (ten years ago) link

If you want to store them you can store them safely in my basement and you have my solemn word that I will not go anywhere near them.

sweat pea (La Lechera), Monday, 4 November 2013 01:18 (ten years ago) link

Aw that is a kind offer! You are making me reconsider getting rid of them. Not bc of the storage solution - just bc of your enthusiasm for their preservation.

carl agatha, Monday, 4 November 2013 01:38 (ten years ago) link

save every signpost from the road to agatha.

estela, Monday, 4 November 2013 01:57 (ten years ago) link

Please please do not discard!! I will hold them in the back of a closet for you until you want them -- we're not going anywhere! That's your life and you can't discard it. I insist!

sweat pea (La Lechera), Monday, 4 November 2013 02:01 (ten years ago) link

Im glad the horriblest bit of my life didnt get journalised.

taxi tomato or bag tomato (Trayce), Monday, 4 November 2013 02:21 (ten years ago) link

me too

sweat pea (La Lechera), Monday, 4 November 2013 03:35 (ten years ago) link

Even my brain's kindly wiped a certain section of about a year. Good brain.

taxi tomato or bag tomato (Trayce), Monday, 4 November 2013 03:47 (ten years ago) link

...well that was erm, interesting!

taxi tomato or bag tomato (Trayce), Monday, 4 November 2013 05:35 (ten years ago) link

what what?

quincie, Monday, 4 November 2013 15:07 (ten years ago) link

lots of deleted shitty image posts

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Monday, 4 November 2013 15:07 (ten years ago) link

ohhhh. Thanks, roxy, for sparing me/us whatever it was.

quincie, Monday, 4 November 2013 15:08 (ten years ago) link

and a temp ban

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Monday, 4 November 2013 15:09 (ten years ago) link

solid work. this thread is a treasure, no shit.

quincie, Monday, 4 November 2013 15:09 (ten years ago) link

why like once a week does a man post in this thread

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Monday, 4 November 2013 15:11 (ten years ago) link

i saw that there were images but i was on my phone and didn't care to see what they were
why is a good question

sweat pea (La Lechera), Monday, 4 November 2013 15:13 (ten years ago) link

Who was it?

carl agatha, Monday, 4 November 2013 15:38 (ten years ago) link

I am wondering that myself, but loathe to give whoever it was any more of the attention he clearly craves.

quincie, Monday, 4 November 2013 16:09 (ten years ago) link

I just want to know who I can safely ignore going forward. PM me!

carl agatha, Monday, 4 November 2013 16:10 (ten years ago) link

well i wanna know too
i know the person's fake username but i doubt a random googler would register an account and img spam this thread

sweat pea (La Lechera), Monday, 4 November 2013 16:12 (ten years ago) link

color definition point of "beyond "color, eg a transient that has been temporarily banned.

just1n3, Monday, 4 November 2013 16:13 (ten years ago) link

its luriqua

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Monday, 4 November 2013 16:14 (ten years ago) link

lol

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Monday, 4 November 2013 16:15 (ten years ago) link

to get us back to discussing ourselves i will start with discussing me: i have to see a rheumetologist to further narrow down what disease i have (lupus or MCTD or...??), but i don't have insurance :/ my doc at school called me today to say that the rheumatologist they refer to requires a downpayment before he will see someone without insurance. i hope its not insane.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Monday, 4 November 2013 16:18 (ten years ago) link

*rheumatologist

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Monday, 4 November 2013 16:19 (ten years ago) link

Oh man, that just makes me so angry, the whole insurance thing.

Have you looked into buying insurance through the HCA at all?

carl agatha, Monday, 4 November 2013 16:48 (ten years ago) link

i havent. i definitely need to explore some options.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Monday, 4 November 2013 19:09 (ten years ago) link

Not to sound like a mom lol but if you're facing the possibility of managing a chronic health condition, you really should get some coverage. I worry about you!

carl agatha, Monday, 4 November 2013 19:18 (ten years ago) link

thx mom :x

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Monday, 4 November 2013 20:03 (ten years ago) link

haw

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Monday, 4 November 2013 20:03 (ten years ago) link

So a few weeks ago I was in a public performance art piece that involved almost 500 ppl and all participants were organized around gender justice issues. There were a small number of men but it was woman-centered and the total participants were overwhelmingly women. It took place on a residential block so the local residents had to be cultivated to be on board w it even though they were a tiny minority.

Yesterday we had a follow-up "debriefing" mtg and a disproportionate number of men attended it (which is partly bc it was a cold Sunday night and not enough women came and the location was extremely convenient for the residents but not the participants) and yet the men were BY FAR more likely to have comments, speak up, and hold the floor for longer. With ZERO apparent consciousness that they were not the center of the event OR the follow-up.

So just in general, the fact that men are always trying to post in this thread reminds me of how irritated I was last night, but that's what always happens...somewhere it stops even being surprising.

All the things that irk me about gender injustice, I try to keep just as much in mind about racial justice ish because I live/work in a community of color with women of color and our work, which is around street harassment, involves inspecting Black masculinity and cultural standards. I keep quiet a lot even though that's not my nature at all, AND IT'S NOT THAT HARD. I mean it's work in the sense that I have to be conscious of it and not feel "free" to make other ppl listen to my ideas all the time, but it's not, like, IMPOSSIBLE. Dudes, take note.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Tuesday, 5 November 2013 01:41 (ten years ago) link

Not to make myself sound good at it because I have messed up and been insensitive and put out phrases or ideas that aren't cool because I'm just not mindful of them, and luckily my group (I think?) respects my effort/intent and forgives me and still values my involvement. It's not all-or-nothing, it's a learning process. All that's asked of people is to be aware and try to do better.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Tuesday, 5 November 2013 01:46 (ten years ago) link

So, like, w/r/t ilx dudes and my date from the other night and guys I talk to in general, you don't have to be all the way there with how you prioritize gender issues in your life. But you do have to SHUT UP AND SIT DOWN and not demand that things be about your feelings all the time.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Tuesday, 5 November 2013 01:48 (ten years ago) link

fuck yes! well said

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 5 November 2013 02:25 (ten years ago) link

god, im dealing with something like this today. a (ostensibly liberal, activist ally-type) dude trying to intimidate me and another woman into silence.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 5 November 2013 03:06 (ten years ago) link

Yeah, multiple of the men who were holding the floor last night also dropped their "activist" qualifications into the conversation! It's helping me understand the controversy around the word "ally" and how ppl sometimes act like it's a label that, once you achieve it, just stays with you like it's your resume, instead of being a *state of being* that you have to work at with your actions, forever.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Tuesday, 5 November 2013 03:25 (ten years ago) link

How are you feeling as you deal with that? Are you getting support from a wider circle? You don't have to share anything more specific but if you want to I'm interested.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Tuesday, 5 November 2013 03:26 (ten years ago) link

Hearing this a lot, particularly with respect to a Breaking Bad thread wherein some of ILX's MOST PROMINENT AND IMPORTANT FEMINIST DUDES just would not stfu and it just drives me nuts. I mean preaching white male privilege as a feminist authority when you are a white male is nagl when you are harping on and on and just not fucking shutting up and sitting down. OH THE IRONING.

quincie, Tuesday, 5 November 2013 03:49 (ten years ago) link

Er that should actually read more like "Condescending to others about how you are so much more aware of white male privilege than anyone else in the room" is nagl when you are a white male and the topic is feminism.

quincie, Tuesday, 5 November 2013 03:51 (ten years ago) link

i checked out of that thread once there started being more than a few dozen posts per day, what was the topic?

sarahell, Tuesday, 5 November 2013 03:52 (ten years ago) link

Topic was whether disliking the Skyler character made one anti-feminist and/or misogynist. And things got super preachy and I'm like fuck this I just want to talk about breaking bad, not be condescended to about the proper way to feel about the character and the actor who plays the character (lol I typed "actress" and changed it). It was captain save-a-ho shit such as I have never seen.

quincie, Tuesday, 5 November 2013 03:55 (ten years ago) link

oh geez

sarahell, Tuesday, 5 November 2013 03:56 (ten years ago) link

I mean can we all agree that Skyler kinda sucked? I mean maybe we can't agree but that doesn't mean I think people who did not embrace that character actually have a deep-seated hatred of all of the womens.

quincie, Tuesday, 5 November 2013 03:57 (ten years ago) link

she was one of my fave characters

sarahell, Tuesday, 5 November 2013 03:58 (ten years ago) link

and discussing how one feels about characters that are not "privileged" in terms of real world bias can be a worthwhile discussion -- i mean, this was a lot of what i studied in college -- but the dynamics of the discussion as you put it forth sounds aggravating

sarahell, Tuesday, 5 November 2013 04:03 (ten years ago) link

I thought her character and Anna Gunn's performances were both irksome, and yeah of course the writing of this particular female character was an issue and the fact that there were not a lot (any?) impressive female characters in Breaking Bad is also irksome, but basically it was some card-carrying (and waving it about dramatically) feminist dudes preaching about how we all just didn't understand oppression was just ugh too much for me.

quincie, Tuesday, 5 November 2013 04:03 (ten years ago) link

i liked both Skyler and Marie, even though they weren't given as many interesting things to do or say as the male characters -- but maybe that was me projecting onto them?

sarahell, Tuesday, 5 November 2013 04:05 (ten years ago) link

I liked Marie! We named one of our cats for Marie (the other cat is Gus).

quincie, Tuesday, 5 November 2013 04:09 (ten years ago) link

I mean maybe we can't agree but that doesn't mean I think people who did not embrace that character actually have a deep-seated hatred of all of the womens.

yeah, it is more complex than that, for sure

sarahell, Tuesday, 5 November 2013 04:10 (ten years ago) link

I wish you had been there during that threadpisode! Bunch of people with penises telling everyone how female oppression all works!

quincie, Tuesday, 5 November 2013 04:12 (ten years ago) link

haha! I grew wary of discussing tv and movies on ilx after a film poll where i got shit from a couple of male posters for saying that I just couldn't get past the sexist stereotypes in "Almost Famous" in terms of appreciating that film

sarahell, Tuesday, 5 November 2013 04:16 (ten years ago) link

i love skyler!

homosexual II, Tuesday, 5 November 2013 15:28 (ten years ago) link

I liked Marie! We named one of our cats for Marie (the other cat is Gus).

― quincie, Monday, November 4, 2013 10:09 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i too have named a cat Gustavo during the run of Breaking Bad. you'll be pleased to no he currently runs our entire neighborhood.

i also love skylar and marie but it tookj a little time (more so with marie than skylab)

I really liked Skyler as a character but I got fed up of pointing out on that thread that she was kind of normal compared to regular 'tv wives'.

kinder, Tuesday, 5 November 2013 19:14 (ten years ago) link

please forgive me but i was looking for a caption and this seemed amusing enough

Bunch of people with penises telling everyone how female oppression all works!

http://25.media.tumblr.com/a9012d58f82f60e7474d7dabf01952d3/tumblr_mtaqh4LxWr1rcq6xho1_500.jpg

sweat pea (La Lechera), Wednesday, 6 November 2013 00:53 (ten years ago) link

haha! I grew wary of discussing tv and movies on ilx after a film poll where i got shit from a couple of male posters for saying that I just couldn't get past the sexist stereotypes in "Almost Famous" in terms of appreciating that film

― sarahell, Monday, November 4, 2013 11:16 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

you were totally otm fwiw

horseshoe, Wednesday, 6 November 2013 01:46 (ten years ago) link

there is this guy at work. he always talks over everyone! especially the ladies. one day i'm gonna lose it.

single white hairball (harbl), Wednesday, 6 November 2013 01:54 (ten years ago) link

you know that phenomenon where you'll say something otm and a dude in your midst will agree but attribute your comment to some other dude in your midst? aka graduate school? seems related, makes me crazy.

horseshoe, Wednesday, 6 November 2013 02:18 (ten years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DE3r_CgScms

taxi tomato or bag tomato (Trayce), Wednesday, 6 November 2013 02:25 (ten years ago) link

i can totally hear this in your voice and it is killing me!
that phenomenon where you'll say something otm

sweat pea (La Lechera), Wednesday, 6 November 2013 02:28 (ten years ago) link

oh yeah this guy is the office know-it-all. he does know a lot but sometimes he's just wrong. a lot of times he has repeated things i've said and art of pretend forgetfulnessed where they came from. i'm the real office know-it-all tbh.

single white hairball (harbl), Wednesday, 6 November 2013 02:30 (ten years ago) link

you know that phenomenon where you'll say something otm and a dude in your midst will agree but attribute your comment to some other dude in your midst? aka graduate school? seems related, makes me crazy.

― horseshoe, Tuesday, November 5, 2013 9:18 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

my life, i swear

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 6 November 2013 14:06 (ten years ago) link

i feel like that happens to me like 1000 times a day. not that im otm 1000 times a day, but that something ive said is attributed to a dude, or a dude takes credit for it, etc

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 6 November 2013 14:07 (ten years ago) link

I've been gone awhile...lots to catch up on.

*tera, Wednesday, 6 November 2013 14:23 (ten years ago) link

It's weird bc usually I have a decent ear for things that are shitty but I don't think that has ever happened to me irl but it has on ilx at times--my post up top somewhere, 100 posts of ppl der-rama, a guy says the same thing, everyone agrees with him.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Wednesday, 6 November 2013 14:30 (ten years ago) link

Maybe irl my very direct stare gives ppl second thoughts? Jk personal magnetism doesn't erase patriarchy.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Wednesday, 6 November 2013 14:31 (ten years ago) link

yeah i mean, i have a pretty loud personality

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 6 November 2013 14:32 (ten years ago) link

I've been invisible on the porn thread.

*tera, Wednesday, 6 November 2013 14:33 (ten years ago) link

a lot of guys (and some women) just only listen to/hear guys

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 6 November 2013 14:33 (ten years ago) link

This happens aaaaall the time at work.

sweat pea (La Lechera), Wednesday, 6 November 2013 14:40 (ten years ago) link

"That 'no boys allowed' thread is always at the top of SNA but there are never any posts. So weird." xp

carl agatha, Wednesday, 6 November 2013 14:41 (ten years ago) link

hahaha

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 6 November 2013 14:43 (ten years ago) link

"only occasionally do i see a post, but then it disappears soon after. what gives"

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 6 November 2013 14:44 (ten years ago) link

Ha!

*tera, Wednesday, 6 November 2013 14:44 (ten years ago) link

related in women/language/being ahead of the curve
I FEEL LIKE

"So my tentative hypothesis would be that 'I feel like' is an idiom that's increasing in frequency in the language, so that younger people use it more than older people," he wrote. "Women use it more than men, because women are generally about a generation ahead of men in most cases of language change."

says Mark Liberman, hero/linguist

http://jezebel.com/ladies-whats-up-with-the-i-feel-like-verbal-tic-1184374148

sweat pea (La Lechera), Wednesday, 6 November 2013 16:00 (ten years ago) link

i feel like that happens to me like 1000 times a day. not that im otm 1000 times a day, but that something ive said is attributed to a dude, or a dude takes credit for it, etc

Reminds me of this OTMness - about how women should 'avoid getting raped', from here:
"The other thing that cracks me up about that is, there's just so much energy put into that argument. Can you name me one other instance at your workplace, or in history, that a man hasn't been given full credit for his actions? You know what I mean? How often does a man do something and they're like...hmm...I think she's responsible. So this is not the one instance when we're gonna be like, "Thanks you guys! We should take credit for that!""

On another note, an acquaintance told me that their office interviewed a candidate who declared beforehand that for religious reasons he would not make eye c0ntact or any physical contact with women. This is in a very female office. I'm not sure how I would react to that.

kinder, Wednesday, 6 November 2013 17:52 (ten years ago) link

That shit has no place in public, no one can stop you from being a religious bigot on your own time but keep it on your own time.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Wednesday, 6 November 2013 18:07 (ten years ago) link

I have worked with people who would not shake hands with/touch/accept items directly from the hands of women.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 6 November 2013 18:12 (ten years ago) link

Yeesh... that sort of thing rubs me the wrong way...

In my old office we had a woman who was slowly in decline and I kept bringing it to the attention of the supervisor because I suspected a lot was going on. I was told not to get into her personal life. She smelled like she was living on the street. She started pooping in her pants in the office leaving a mess on the floor all over the office. Finally she didn't show up for work after a freezing cold weekend and I told people she was probably dead. No one listened. After three days a co-worker who knew where she lived went to check in on her and she had died over the weekend. She had a diabetes problem and was refusing to take meds, had lost her husband earlier that year and he was found covered with a tarp decomposing in the backyard. ANYWAY! Point is, no one listened, everyone ignored all these HUGE signs and tried hard to ignore her.

Meanwhile, going on at the same time, male in the office was refusing to do his job duties claiming the government was tracking him online and they got him all sorts of help asap. For some reason EAP couldn't do a thing to help the female employee but did all it could to help the male.

It's just an extreme example of not being heard is what I have always thought.

*tera, Wednesday, 6 November 2013 18:17 (ten years ago) link

The shocking lack of compassion for that poor woman aside, failing to address the fact that one of your employees is pooping in her pants and on the office floor is just really, really bad management.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 6 November 2013 19:18 (ten years ago) link

Yeah, that's so sad and insane and omg I can't even believe that!

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 6 November 2013 19:37 (ten years ago) link

I work pretty much exclusively with women (there are 2 men in our office of maybe 40?) so I find all of this really bewildering. Likewise both my undergrad and grad programs were overwhelmingly female (go figure) so I feel like this something I've been really fucking lucky not to have to deal with often. My new office will be much more mixed. I'm going to be on the lookout for this kind of thing.

Also, what? Are you fucking kidding me?

I have worked with people who would not shake hands with/touch/accept items directly from the hands of women.

― carl agatha, Wednesday, November 6, 2013 1:12 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 6 November 2013 19:41 (ten years ago) link

Oh wait - for religious reasons? Wow. Still.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 6 November 2013 19:41 (ten years ago) link

Yeah, religious reasons.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 6 November 2013 19:50 (ten years ago) link

The main boss, supervisors...all hid behind liability issues. By the time we got answers from a lawyer about what to do, it was too late. She was considered "functional" because she did her work, even though she was eating from the trash, her cubicle a bio-hazard, smelled so bad she was causing people to dry heave and stopped being social. She wouldn't answer questions unless they were work related. Was wearing the same clothing for 10 months straight! This was not how this woman had been conducting her life the previous 28 years of employment there. I was reprimanded for "making to much of it all" and stirring up things, other concerned co-workers were told the same thing. Again, looking back, only women were concerned. The lawyer said her supervisor could have called social services, explain the situation and request they visit her at her home.

Several women I worked with left recently because they felt they weren't being heard. The place is a mess.

*tera, Wednesday, 6 November 2013 20:11 (ten years ago) link

Oh God this is the saddest story.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 6 November 2013 20:17 (ten years ago) link

There is no liability there. WTF was wrong with your employers.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 6 November 2013 20:20 (ten years ago) link

what kind of workplace is this?!

sarahell, Wednesday, 6 November 2013 20:22 (ten years ago) link

thats so outrageous

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 6 November 2013 21:42 (ten years ago) link

Seriously.

I was thinking about the issue of religious men not looking at or touching women--like, if your entire life is founded on behavioral conceits like those and you insist on inflicting them on others who didn't choose to be around you, the very, VERY least you could do (and I'm not sure this would even be enough) is work extra hard to listen to and talk to women in a way that shows you acknowledge them and aren't brushing them off. Like, okay, maybe we can't shake hands or use the same stapler (BUT WHAT ABOUT THE COPY MACHINE BUTTONS??), but if in meetings you support my ideas and give me credit in groups and you respect my workflow and stuff like that, we might be able to work constructively together.

But that's not how people are oriented, because crossing the line to refusing to look at women is actually shorthand for wishing they didn't exist AT ALL outside your prescribed roles for them. It's erasure. You're erasing women from the public sphere, and fuck you very much for that.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Wednesday, 6 November 2013 21:59 (ten years ago) link

Yeah, I have a hard time finding a place of religious tolerance in that situation, too. Like, I'm sorry that you are worried I'm going to get my ~unstoppable slutty sex want~ all over your hand and make you unfaithful to your wife/your god/your purity of thought or whatever, but I am not entirely sure how that is my problem.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 6 November 2013 22:07 (ten years ago) link

i'm really annoyed that there is a thread about a quest to stop a pantsuit

single white hairball (harbl), Wednesday, 6 November 2013 22:15 (ten years ago) link

This was at the main library at a large Texas college. From what I hear the library itself is in decline due to a series of poor decisions and management that started in 2005.

But that's not how people are oriented, because crossing the line to refusing to look at women is actually shorthand for wishing they didn't exist AT ALL outside your prescribed roles for them. It's erasure. You're erasing women from the public sphere, and fuck you very much for that.
Exactly!

It isn't functional to not look co-workers in the eye, to be so worried about touching their hands...

*tera, Wednesday, 6 November 2013 22:21 (ten years ago) link

I genuinely wonder how he gets through a normal day? I'm kind of interested in the reasoning behind this belief (sorry, but I refuse to distinguish a 'religious' belief from a regular belief). It got me thinking how I would respond to, say, someone who acted 'oddly' and not as per our cultural norms for other reasons, like autism, or whatever, and what assumptions we might make (although obv very different - a belief is a choice)
Anyway can someone make 'unstoppable slutty sex want' their DN pls?

kinder, Wednesday, 6 November 2013 22:53 (ten years ago) link

I used to work at the Passport Office and saw all types. Religious men - lets not step delicately here, it is the very traditionalist muslim we're speaking of - would not only not want to deal with female staff members, I had one gent who would not allow his wife to present for her own passport application. He made her stay sitting at the back of the room. When I informed him it was the law she had to be at the desk in person and sign the form in my presence, he VERY grudgingly let her come up, mark a shaky, clearly illiterate "X" as a sig, then she scuttled back to her seat, cowed. He was bitter, angry and extremely pissed he had to take orders from a GIRL.

taxi tomato or bag tomato (Trayce), Wednesday, 6 November 2013 23:15 (ten years ago) link

can i just say

you know that phenomenon where you'll say something otm and a dude in your midst will agree but attribute your comment to some other dude in your midst?

THIS. and/or talk right over me while i'm still talking. occasionally dudes have made a point by saying to me (and the group) the exact same thing i just said, the second i've stopped talking, like i wasn't even there, except for the idea they thought it was necessary to repeat as if they'd just thought of it themselves.

i gave up on the 'breaking bad' thread because it dawned on me that i was watching the show completely differently than the majority of participants in that conversation and there was no point in continuing there! skyler was a frustrating character because i kept wanting her to assert herself and walk away from this abusive relationship and it didn't really happen. i liked marie and i actually liked lydia sort of, and gus was the best imo

seriously, THIS GUY (daria-g), Thursday, 7 November 2013 00:08 (ten years ago) link

one of the things i appreciate about message boards is that ok, sure, people are free to misread your comments or ignore them or start pointless arguments or whatever, but they cannot actually barge in and talk right over you while you are still talking and haven't finished a sentence. (and then get offended if you don't shut up and let them talk over you)

seriously, THIS GUY (daria-g), Thursday, 7 November 2013 00:10 (ten years ago) link

After recently being at an event where a man got mad at what a woman was saying and yelled at her over her attempts to talk for like 5 minutes straight and stood up and waved his arms around and slung a cup of water at her, I feel sensitive to that kind of thing right now. Recently saw it on a talk show, or on a tv show? I can't rembemeber...and was like "No no no no no no."

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Thursday, 7 November 2013 00:27 (ten years ago) link

Hah or actually maybe it happened to me on that bad date? Not on that level, but not being able to talk past someone who is bigger and louder than you.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Thursday, 7 November 2013 00:34 (ten years ago) link

WHAT?! ...grrrrrrrrrr

*tera, Thursday, 7 November 2013 02:09 (ten years ago) link

Shout-out to my ex-bf, a bedroom guitarist who has never played in a band, made a record or gone on tour, who told me I was not a musician; as evidence to back this claim, he stated that I did not even know what a scale was. When I started to define exactly what a scale was, ("it's a set ordered by pitch..."), he repeated my words back to me in a voice as incredulous as if I had said "a scale is a butt."
#fuckyou #onblast #yourtremolopickingsux

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 7 November 2013 21:58 (ten years ago) link

posted that here to stop myself from posting it on FB

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 7 November 2013 21:58 (ten years ago) link

if you posted "a scale is a butt" on fb I would comment "dying"

sarahell, Thursday, 7 November 2013 21:59 (ten years ago) link

and the only reason that i'm not posting on FB right now is that ive already publicly shamed like 50 ppl in the last week and i dont want to get too one-note w/it

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 7 November 2013 22:00 (ten years ago) link

xp <3

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 7 November 2013 22:00 (ten years ago) link

xref'ed with OP of "thread to get over a breakup"

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 7 November 2013 22:01 (ten years ago) link

just so that^ doesnt get twisted, im WAAYYYYYYY over that breakup. lol.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 7 November 2013 22:02 (ten years ago) link

is he one of the fine specimens of manhood on the breakup thread?

sarahell, Thursday, 7 November 2013 22:02 (ten years ago) link

he's the original! so happy to have run into him again on halloween

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 7 November 2013 22:03 (ten years ago) link

kill all men

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 7 November 2013 22:03 (ten years ago) link

hahah my former roommate wished me happy birthday!

sarahell, Thursday, 7 November 2013 22:04 (ten years ago) link

it was a very pleasant surprise since he didn't wish me happy birthday when he was actually my roommate iirc

sarahell, Thursday, 7 November 2013 22:05 (ten years ago) link

when i got out of class this morning my phone notified me that it was time to "Celebrate with Sarah! It's her birthday!" It made me lol. I've never seen one of those pop up. It was from FB.

also HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 7 November 2013 22:06 (ten years ago) link

let's celebrate here!

sarahell, Thursday, 7 November 2013 22:06 (ten years ago) link

awwwwww

sarahell, Thursday, 7 November 2013 22:17 (ten years ago) link

otm

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 8 November 2013 02:36 (ten years ago) link

hb several days ago sarahell!

two things of note to this thread happened today:

1) in the hallway during break, there were three boys standing on one side of the hallway talking with three boys sitting on a sofa on the other side. Anyone who wanted to pass through would have to walk the gauntlet of 6 boys. i laughed on my way through the first time and said something like "this is quite a gauntlet you've made here" and they didn't really react and that was that. on my way back through, i remembered that one of the boys had been bothering one of my students and on the way back, i told them that the way they were standing was intimidating. they were like wha? and i was like yeah, having to walk through a hallway that is clogged with other people who are all staring at her is intimidating. you shouldn't do it. then i went into my classroom. we'll see if they ever do that again. punks! you don't intimidate our students like that. or me, for that matter.

2) you know that thing upthread where a dude tries to tell you something that you actually told him? that happened today with me and my boss and guess what i said after he smugly told me something that i had told him at least a week ago. i said, "i know, i told you that. at two separate meetings." yezzir.

sweat pea (La Lechera), Wednesday, 13 November 2013 00:23 (ten years ago) link

I hate walking through guards of dishonour, the reflexive sanding down you get from all those bored but on-duty eyes.

estela, Wednesday, 13 November 2013 00:42 (ten years ago) link

i was talking to a client, who is 21, on the phone today and he called me "sweetie" twice

single white hairball (harbl), Wednesday, 13 November 2013 00:47 (ten years ago) link

unbelievable.
seriously?

sweat pea (La Lechera), Wednesday, 13 November 2013 00:48 (ten years ago) link

such amazing, deluded cheek.

estela, Wednesday, 13 November 2013 00:57 (ten years ago) link

happy birthday sarahell, most excellent and entertaining asker of questions.

estela, Wednesday, 13 November 2013 01:00 (ten years ago) link

I get sweetie all the time from an ex work collegue but hes camp as a row of tents so... I give that a pass? I dont know if I should.

taxi tomato or bag tomato (Trayce), Wednesday, 13 November 2013 01:02 (ten years ago) link

if it bothers you, you should say something
if not, no worries

a similar thing happened today at the same meeting as 2). a female coworker said that she couldn't see past my bangs and she pushed my hair aside just like a couple inches. this didn't bother me at all because i know her and it just didn't bother me. my boss, the aforementioned one, said "now, could that be considered harassment?" and i was like "well, if i'm uncomfortable with it, yes. if i'm not (which i wasn't) then no."

sweat pea (La Lechera), Wednesday, 13 November 2013 01:08 (ten years ago) link

That is true! Harassment is unwanted by definition, at least on the workplace context.

Also: badass approach to rude dudes at work, LL!

Also: hbd sarahell!

carl agatha, Wednesday, 13 November 2013 01:25 (ten years ago) link

Hi, everybody!

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Wednesday, 13 November 2013 17:03 (ten years ago) link

I don't know why I said that, I think because this thread feels like walking into a room and it seemed appropriate.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Wednesday, 13 November 2013 17:04 (ten years ago) link

I went on a date, he was dreamy and appreciative and it felt comfortable. I pretty much haven't felt attracted to anyone in...a year? or more? and it's not unusual for me to be on really long cycles but I was starting to feel like that was just gone for me, I don't know, it's a long story, but FINALLY I FELT SOMETHING so that was exciting, it was like spring in November, little birdies flying, etc.

And I got home and Yerac encouraged me to google him and I did and he has a prior arrest for dv lol/sob.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Wednesday, 13 November 2013 17:40 (ten years ago) link

Oh ugh. :(

carl agatha, Wednesday, 13 November 2013 17:57 (ten years ago) link

I would like to have something that's just mine, some corner of my emotional life that lights things up for me. It's okay being steady and even-keeled and I thought that was good enough for me (in the cynical drawer of my mental filing system I think it's the best I can hope for) so to have hope again suddenly and then feel like I just cannot get ahead, at all...it's got me down for a few days.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Wednesday, 13 November 2013 18:04 (ten years ago) link

Last night my eccentric 70-something neighbor told me I should get my nail tech license "before you get married." I pointed out that at my age there was no clock ticking and no prospects either, and she said, "Oh honey, you're young! Young!" I mean I guess I am if you're 77.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Wednesday, 13 November 2013 18:14 (ten years ago) link

I would call you young from my 40yo perspective, too, especially as it pertains to marriage timelines.

Also neighbor OTM about your nail tech license. I think you should do that!

carl agatha, Wednesday, 13 November 2013 18:18 (ten years ago) link

I'm trying! Touring a beauty school in a couple of weeks b/c they won't tell you anything about the cost or payment plans until you go in person--but it's also going to cost like $1500-1700 so I have to find other work first and save up.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Wednesday, 13 November 2013 18:21 (ten years ago) link

I know I'm not old, it's all in my head that I feel dried up and uninteresting. I used to be everyone's big sister, now it's like I'm their MOM.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Wednesday, 13 November 2013 18:26 (ten years ago) link

my best friend back home is going through some v difficult emotional struggles atm wrt age, singledom, dating & children

she is single & has been for some time, and just recently found out that she is (v possibly) infertile, which sent her down a pretty big spiral of i will die alone i am unlovable all i wanted was children etc

the thing is, she's my age, 37...which, idk. there are so many ways to have children, the way you planned isnt nec the only way, you are comparatively young, the world is not even close to ending...all these things go round my head for her

but it's hard to counsel too hardcore bcz i'm mindful of being the a) married, b) happily childless friend saying brightly "it's not so bad" bcz fuck that friend yknow

those feelings are legit when you feel them, is the thing. they're not wrong, they're just so final. it's hard to convey to her that none of this is indicative of how her story will play out.

idk.

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 13 November 2013 18:58 (ten years ago) link

my heart sunk when i read about the googling. that sucks.

i think all a person can do is find joy/brain light wherever possible. your neighbor otm. i just gave my mom a huge pep talk because she was feeling bummed about writing her bio/looking back at her life. i mean, you gotta take it where you can find it!

sweat pea (La Lechera), Wednesday, 13 November 2013 18:59 (ten years ago) link

I partly faced up to getting out of my horrible relationship by accepting that if that was my "last chance" to have a normal husband and children, then I was going to have to give it up for my own good and close the book on that idea. Since then I've mostly been fine with my choice, but I seriously feel what your friend is saying in that area.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Wednesday, 13 November 2013 19:11 (ten years ago) link

Sorry for inflicting this on everyone, I just feel really sad today and I know it was indulgent to put it here, but I was tired of being fine.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Wednesday, 13 November 2013 19:15 (ten years ago) link

I used to be everyone's big sister, now it's like I'm their MOM.

Ha! I remember when that happened to me!

VG, you are kind to recognize that "it's not so bad!" may not be what your friend can hear from you now. I've been in semi-similar shoes (37 and declared infertile at least) and it felt pretty melodramatically, end of the world awful for me, too, despite my life being pretty damn ace in almost every other respect. If you can find a gentle way to convey that this isn't indicative of how her story will play out (HI BABY ON BOARD) while validating how crappy she feels now and recognizing it as justified, that might help. Otherwise, just sympathetic listening is probably pretty welcome, too.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 13 November 2013 19:17 (ten years ago) link

Oh man, io, I wish I could perform psychic surgery and take that "last chance" business out of your head and replace it with how awesome and worthy of love I think you are.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 13 November 2013 19:20 (ten years ago) link

There's no such thing as a "last chance." We live in a chaotic system. Anything can happen.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 13 November 2013 19:22 (ten years ago) link

io - i think you're right to let it out! seeing things in such severe terms (this is the end of the road) doesn't seem like the path to happiness imo, but i am generally pretty happy to live in a state of medium delusion about my potential in life. like if being realistic means feeling bad about myself for the rest of my life, i'll choose a less realistic approach rather than face down the grim "reality" of what i might look/seem like to other people. result: i can still wake up in the morning. otherwise? not sure about that. that's just me, you gotta do what you gotta do.

sweat pea (La Lechera), Wednesday, 13 November 2013 19:24 (ten years ago) link

carl otm

sweat pea (La Lechera), Wednesday, 13 November 2013 19:24 (ten years ago) link

D'awww.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Wednesday, 13 November 2013 19:38 (ten years ago) link

My realistic approach is "Be prepared for long-term solitude" and usually I feel like life security and autonomy are a good return on my investment in myself. (I'm off-balance right now partly because my lyfe security is getting low, so that's one thing.) I forgot that the spike in FEELINGS is like a drug, though, and it got hold of me for a couple of days and now is like the come-down.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Wednesday, 13 November 2013 19:47 (ten years ago) link

That sounds very familiar. It's not a pleasant feeling, I know it well!

sweat pea (La Lechera), Wednesday, 13 November 2013 19:48 (ten years ago) link

io, I'm feeling you on this on pretty much every level. I feel like I've been doing what LL recommends in terms of medium delusion, but suddenly recently that failed me and I got all the stereotypical die-alone-w/-cats thoughts, except they weren't as funny as in the Bridget Jones-esque stereotype thoughts. Having said that, I really like Carl's chaotic system thought. I believe in that.

The men of NYC would be extremely lucky to have you in their chaotic system.

ljubljana, Wednesday, 13 November 2013 20:13 (ten years ago) link

Orbit you are a thoughtful person and so I'm sure you have thought about this, but my first thought re: gooling was 1) arrest for DV does not mean a person committed DV and 2) a person may in fact have committed DV, but--BUT--I do believe that some people who fuck up really, really badly use it as a turning point for positive transformation.

Is it out of the question to get to know the guy better before deciding that this is an absolute no-go?

quincie, Wednesday, 13 November 2013 20:44 (ten years ago) link

my first thought was similar to quincie's -- was he even convicted? did he also have a substance abuse problem at the time?

but, i can totally see how that is something that is a total red flag and makes you feel very unsafe no matter the circumstances, especially if it's something he did not volunteer

sarahell, Wednesday, 13 November 2013 21:56 (ten years ago) link

The irony is I don't feel unsafe at all but I do have terrible judgment and have been wrong about men like it's my full-time job! I'm open to the 2nd date we already agreed to but some uncomfortable topics are going to have to be breached. (Probable yes to the substance abuse q btw, fwiw.)

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Wednesday, 13 November 2013 22:08 (ten years ago) link

i occasionally have moments of anxiety about not being in a relationship, and feel slightly irritated with my friends who ask about my romantic life and prospects like one would ask an elderly person about their health. most of them are in serious relationships. i have been single for 4 years now, and i am now pretty content not being in a relationship and not desperately searching for one. but sometimes i have those "is there something wrong with me? am i delusional?" panicky times.

oh and in case you were wondering, the baby shower was fine. it was mostly friends of the pregnant friend -- none of these friends (including me) have kids, and yes, there was alcohol. i think i was on my 3rd cocktail by the time of the oohing and ahhing over cute babby gifts

sarahell, Wednesday, 13 November 2013 22:21 (ten years ago) link

hay, has anyone had a dude named "Allen White" request their friendship on Facebook? Is that an ilxor or just some random creep?

homosexual II, Wednesday, 13 November 2013 23:02 (ten years ago) link

IO: I have two female friends who's mugshots are online because they were arrested (and not convicted) of DV. They were loudly fighting with their SOs, neighbors called the cops, cops booked 'em both. Definitely delve for some backstory, but without a conviction, it might be nothing.

kate78, Wednesday, 13 November 2013 23:14 (ten years ago) link

idk about the US but in NZ whoever calls is the one who WON'T be charged - my ex hit me in the face/head repeatedly, tried to smother me, a few other things, and i managed to split his lip in return. HE called the cops on ME, and i almost got arrested. without witnesses or evidence - my black eye hadn't come up yet and there were no visible marks from the head-hitting or smothering - that's how it goes down.

just1n3, Wednesday, 13 November 2013 23:27 (ten years ago) link

i think that's true everywhere. some states have laws about who to arrest but everywhere manipulators know to call the police first and know what to say. it's sad but so many assault complaints turn out to be utter bs. it's nice to be able to find out people's history by googling them but otoh while you can expunge dropped cases from government records, private sites and news sites that reprint police press releases without question don't have to get rid of anything. sucks. at least in maryland you can look up anyone's case and find out what happened to it. which is both good and bad, depending on who's looking.

single white hairball (harbl), Thursday, 14 November 2013 00:11 (ten years ago) link

I just had read a paper about a police department that took part in research that had officers responding to DV calls either arrest the accused or refer her/him to a treatment program depending on what color card came up in a shuffled (re: random) deck of colored cards. It was like, blue = arrest, green = don't arrest, send social worker. So whether you were googleable in connection with a DV arrest was completely random. Just sayin', guy may be bad news, or guy may have had a bad break.

quincie, Thursday, 14 November 2013 00:30 (ten years ago) link

Um forgive failure to grammaticate there; you get the picture, I think.

quincie, Thursday, 14 November 2013 00:31 (ten years ago) link

Don't some states have laws that require them to arrest both people involved in a DV call?

I'll be real - I'd probably call it a day with this guy based in that info but I'm old, tired, and don't have time for sleuthing. Also have had bad experiences overlooking such things in the past.

I'm not saying I'm right. Just offering perspective.

carl agatha, Thursday, 14 November 2013 00:31 (ten years ago) link

Whatever you do is the right thing, obv. Thinging of u IO and sending sisterly vibes :)

quincie, Thursday, 14 November 2013 00:32 (ten years ago) link

oh god I cannot type/write for shit today.

quincie, Thursday, 14 November 2013 00:32 (ten years ago) link

i would probably call it a day too but i feel bad for him if it's false. i don't quite understand the study q is talking about but i think randomness permeates the criminal justice system.

single white hairball (harbl), Thursday, 14 November 2013 00:44 (ten years ago) link

Yeah I did not describe it coherently at all. Basically, the study wanted to learn about effects of arrest vs. treatment program referral on subsequent offenses. The officers involved in the study were given, basically, a deck of cards that (randomly) assigned a particular response to a DV incident (falling within certain parameters) to either 1) arrest the accused, who would have to deal with that or 2) mandate that the accused participate in some sort of anti-DV training. Then accused were followed up to see if they had subsequent arrest, or something. I dunno, it was in Minnesota so DJP is to blame.

quincie, Thursday, 14 November 2013 03:10 (ten years ago) link

Um, wont the guy be bit weirded out that you googled him for criminal stuff? I'm not defending what he potentially did, but I feel that if I went on a 2nd date with a guy and said "hey on the the internet I saw you did X! :D :/" I can be confident the guy would be running backwards away from me with a guy-shaped dust hole in his wake muttering "you creepy woman" at me. Maybe I have just had paranoid dates. I dunno.

taxi tomato or bag tomato (Trayce), Thursday, 14 November 2013 03:59 (ten years ago) link

Oh and I'm not saying you did anything creepy L! I just feel like thats what guys think of ME if I did such things.

taxi tomato or bag tomato (Trayce), Thursday, 14 November 2013 03:59 (ten years ago) link

Googling is just so prevalent, though, and to me it doesn't feel creepy - it feels reasonable, especially if you're thinking of actually getting involved. You can always start with 'I was interested/intrigued/[insert mental state of choice here] after Saturday, so I googled you. And....' I mean, that's honest, and if it's creepy, then I'm creepy!

ljubljana, Thursday, 14 November 2013 04:26 (ten years ago) link

Dont get me wrong, the first thing I do with a guy is look for his facebook/twitter/lastfm playlist etc

I havent ever thought to just google a name for like, criminal stuff tho. Ive googled guys names but only after I knew em better.

taxi tomato or bag tomato (Trayce), Thursday, 14 November 2013 04:45 (ten years ago) link

Way creepier to have DV charges than to google. Stay away Orbit. I think every guy is Patrick Bateman though.

homosexual II, Thursday, 14 November 2013 06:31 (ten years ago) link

just came back from the GP after 2 sets of scans as the first had hinted at ovarian tumor/cancer. relieved to find the second shows nothing. that was a frightening couple of days.

taxi tomato or bag tomato (Trayce), Thursday, 14 November 2013 06:47 (ten years ago) link

oh what a relief, I'm sorry you had to go through such a scare.

estela, Thursday, 14 November 2013 09:16 (ten years ago) link

ooff, Trayce. I hope you get some answers soon.

ljubljana, Thursday, 14 November 2013 12:36 (ten years ago) link

This thread is the best, thank you for all the thoughtful answers! Getting my drama out there helped me calm it, plus was in a good circle of women last night and got my head right a little bit. Maybe I needed to be so sad yesterday for var reasons but it seems to have passed over.

Hello no googling someone isn't creepy! If you're going to go somewhere with someone when you might be alone or remote, you should do whatever makes you feel safe! The internet IS a public space. I wouldn't normally do it because I think the process of ppl choosing to reveal things to each other in a certain order is part of intimacy and I don't like to co-opt it, and actually the dv thing isn't my greatest concern w/r/t whether to date this guy, but if you find something serious enough to possibly affect your safety, then hell yes.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Thursday, 14 November 2013 12:59 (ten years ago) link

Or as one of the women from last night would say, "Putting all your stuff out on Front Street." <3 <3 <3

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Thursday, 14 November 2013 13:01 (ten years ago) link

Let's all agree to clutch our beneficial delusions close to our chests and LIVE.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Thursday, 14 November 2013 13:04 (ten years ago) link

been working for me so far
(on and off, but mostly on)

sweat pea (La Lechera), Thursday, 14 November 2013 13:57 (ten years ago) link

I love the saying about putting your business out on the street. I use that one a lot.

Trayce that is good news! :D

carl agatha, Thursday, 14 November 2013 14:25 (ten years ago) link

I routinely do background checks on people I am dating. I am excessively paranoid, perhaps.

homosexual II, Thursday, 14 November 2013 17:11 (ten years ago) link

I feel bad I may have seemed to imply anyone doing it is creepy. I dont think they are! I just dont get why you hear people always say "what, thats invasive and WEIRD" if you bring it up in conversation.

But, that then brings me to mind of the "women aren't crazy" article HomoII posted on FB this mornign (which was AWESOME).

taxi tomato or bag tomato (Trayce), Thursday, 14 November 2013 22:29 (ten years ago) link

someone i know googled a man who seemed perfect after one date and found that he beat a woman nearly to death with a tire iron

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Friday, 15 November 2013 01:16 (ten years ago) link

OK yeah I'd wanna know about shit like that.

taxi tomato or bag tomato (Trayce), Friday, 15 November 2013 02:47 (ten years ago) link

in the last two trips to a certain grocery store, my cashier has
1) told me i was "perky"
2) looked at the wine i was buying (2 bottles) and asked if i was having a party

different cashiers btw

sweat pea (La Lechera), Monday, 18 November 2013 18:26 (ten years ago) link

meanwhile, over at the aveda website (which i was forced to visit bc they did not have the 1 product i buy at the store i visited)

hair concern
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3830/11172826135_f5ca4b1622.jpg

pure privilege club
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3685/11173016323_2afef0c401.jpg

sweat pea (La Lechera), Monday, 2 December 2013 15:56 (ten years ago) link

"How can we make you feel terrible about yourself? Let us count the ways (and also give you new and approved vocabulary for all your self-criticism needs)."

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Monday, 2 December 2013 16:00 (ten years ago) link

i went there for perfume (there's one i like, i think it smells good on me, i can keep it in my purse, i have neutral/good associations with it) and came out feeling like i was covered in focus grouping insects

sweat pea (La Lechera), Monday, 2 December 2013 16:03 (ten years ago) link

If you weren't you, you would have to be the William Gibson character who's so sensitive to branding and aesthetic signifiers that she can only wear one kind of plain pants and tshirts and one kind of jacket and removes the tags and logos from all her possessions.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Monday, 2 December 2013 16:06 (ten years ago) link

thank goodness that's not my most outstanding characteristic! good lord.

i have been kinda hungry for girltalk lately
what's going on with y'all?

sweat pea (La Lechera), Monday, 2 December 2013 16:11 (ten years ago) link

All baby all the time.

She's still in the hospital (nothing wring with her, just had to learn to eat) but should be released soon. Then I can move from this exhausting frustrating liminal state of having but not having a baby to being an actual parent.

carl agatha, Monday, 2 December 2013 16:17 (ten years ago) link

ugh i can imagine that being a v frustrating state
glad it's on the horizon though!

me: i lived through one holiday and it was very pleasant, now i have two more holidays + 10 yr wedding anniversary coming up
have been trying not to feel shitty about a number of things, and mostly succeeding
lots of drumming

sweat pea (La Lechera), Monday, 2 December 2013 16:21 (ten years ago) link

I'm going to kill my roommate because all I ever do is wash his dishes and replace the foods he uses, since he still can't use one hand and barely leaves the house. I can't wait until he goes home for almost a month over the holidays. The other day he put potatoes on the stove and left them boiling until they boiled dry and covered the bottom of my pot in potato soot, which sat in the sink for 2 days until I scrubbed it. This morning I washed all the dishes in the sink and then vacuumed the floor of all the crumbs he drops when he stands in front of the fridge breaking off chunks of bread.

I've always struggled with how to talk to him about his not cleaning and not being thoughtful but it's reaching new lows b/c I've tried to be patient of his injuries and now I feel like his housekeeper.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Monday, 2 December 2013 16:29 (ten years ago) link

It's particularly galling to me that he has never learned to "see" his own messes because he's never (apparently??) been responsible for cleaning them up. I wrote a piece on this phenom actually (since he's not the first guy I've heard that excuse from), maybe I'll post it and link to here.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Monday, 2 December 2013 16:30 (ten years ago) link

people who can't see their own messes are astounding to me

i've lived with a guy like that, and there's a guy in our friend group who is so frustratingly messy that even the grossest people can't live with him. he even junked up a campsite on a camping trip and didn't realize he had done it. who does that! obv an extreme case. i think some of these people need cognitive therapy, but most probably just need to live with someone who bosses them to clean up their junk. it's uncomfortable and makes them feel like a child (and you like a parent), but someone has to have that talk with them or they will be 100 and throwing vitamin water bottles into a heap on the carpet, alone

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Monday, 2 December 2013 16:42 (ten years ago) link

Such mindless entitlement. That shit drives me nuts.

carl agatha, Monday, 2 December 2013 16:48 (ten years ago) link

Ooh can I steal "mindless entitlement"?

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Monday, 2 December 2013 16:49 (ten years ago) link

God yes. Freely given to the world.

carl agatha, Monday, 2 December 2013 16:59 (ten years ago) link

Bless you.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Monday, 2 December 2013 16:59 (ten years ago) link

you should ask him for his pure privilege member number the next time he boils something to death in one of your pots

sweat pea (La Lechera), Monday, 2 December 2013 17:20 (ten years ago) link

ahahaha

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Monday, 2 December 2013 17:30 (ten years ago) link

^^^ really excellent!

quincie, Wednesday, 4 December 2013 15:56 (ten years ago) link

Yay ty!

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Wednesday, 4 December 2013 16:02 (ten years ago) link

Why are some physical indicators of aging easier to stomach than others? I'm fine with my wrinkles, more or less OK with my sun spots, I bought bigger pants rather than try to stay at the (under)weight I was in my 20s, but I am rather not liking my softening jaw. It's like the flesh of my face moved down a fraction of an inch over the past month or so, just in time for my upcoming 40th b'day.

I'm embarrassed to admit that sometimes I look at my jawline and think "ugh, I'm going to look like my mother." But I love my mother! And I love that she never opted for the knife for anything cosmetic! It's like I'm OK with looking older as long as it is Angelica-Huston older, but not older like normal-people older.

Anyway, I'm back in DC for a week to take care of various errands before the next phase of the Year of the Midlife Crisis, and am remembering how much I love this city and city life in general. I used to think I could do city or rural but nowhere in between; now I know that rural does not suit me for more than a couple of weeks at a time. Good stuff to figure out before you buy a farmhouse in Iowa or whatever.

quincie, Wednesday, 4 December 2013 16:03 (ten years ago) link

god yes

the daughter of a family friend had been living in the city for about 10 years, prior to that she had grown up in a small farming town - but had lived in the town part rather than the farm part.
she met a guy and fell in love and moved to a sheep station in the Northern Territory. ie The Outback, captial T capital O.

after about 2 months she was completely miserable. but she stayed there for a couple of years (!) and even had a kid with me which...she's moved back home and is up to her neck in custody insanity and all kinds of mess. extreme example, I mean what she did was beyond rural, that's full on isolation, but to your point, rural life is not for everyone. but it's hard to explain when the scenery is so nice and the people seem so easy going. but if you've grown up in suburban or relatively populated areas, you take all the convenience for granted that you have to forgo for bucolic pastoral loveliness

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 4 December 2013 18:18 (ten years ago) link

lol she did not have a kid with me. she had a kid with HIM
O_o

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 4 December 2013 18:19 (ten years ago) link

feeling you, quincie - idc about wrinkles etc either, but all the women on my mum's side have turkey necks and/or loose jowls and my jawline has def started loosing definition over the last couple of years (and i'm only - almost - 34!)

just1n3, Wednesday, 4 December 2013 18:44 (ten years ago) link

Yeah I'm totally cool with some aspects of aging and freaked about others.

I grew up in places ranging from rural as hell to small town and NEVER AGAIN. I'm so happy to be raising a kid in the city.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 4 December 2013 18:59 (ten years ago) link

I'm fat so I never had a jawline to begin with

homosexual II, Wednesday, 4 December 2013 19:07 (ten years ago) link

Lady you have great facial bone structure so stfu (<said lovingly).

quincie, Wednesday, 4 December 2013 19:16 (ten years ago) link

you too!

sweat pea (La Lechera), Wednesday, 4 December 2013 20:39 (ten years ago) link

Why are some physical indicators of aging easier to stomach than others? I'm fine with my wrinkles, more or less OK with my sun spots, I bought bigger pants rather than try to stay at the (under)weight I was in my 20s, but I am rather not liking my softening jaw. It's like the flesh of my face moved down a fraction of an inch over the past month or so, just in time for my upcoming 40th b'day.

I'm embarrassed to admit that sometimes I look at my jawline and think "ugh, I'm going to look like my mother."

OMG I have thought these exact words repeatedly over the past years only I'm still early 30s :(

kinder, Wednesday, 4 December 2013 22:26 (ten years ago) link

http://the-toast.net/2013/12/04/invisible-signs-of-aging/

carl agatha, Wednesday, 4 December 2013 22:26 (ten years ago) link

Haha yes Ive started to do that "pull the skin up at the jawline in the mirror" thing a lot :(

the Bronski Review (Trayce), Wednesday, 4 December 2013 23:01 (ten years ago) link

Looking forward to Sudden-Onset Cronery tbh.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Wednesday, 4 December 2013 23:15 (ten years ago) link

I've suffered from occasional early-morning haggery for years.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 4 December 2013 23:16 (ten years ago) link

i have had strong feelings in recent times of truly loving getting older, it's such an excellent surprise. this is not a grim acceptance of an inevitability, it's a cheerful powerful not giving a fuckery. i'm of established middle age now though, the early days of not being young any more had a bit of a twilight feeling of gloom about them.

estela, Wednesday, 4 December 2013 23:27 (ten years ago) link

Hearing but not understanding the language of the stars

I don't know who writes for The Toast but they've snuck some threads of remarkable beauty into their jokey lists.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Thursday, 5 December 2013 00:19 (ten years ago) link

I believe you, estela! I feel like being on the brink of middle age is a bit more challenging for me bc I'm close to youthfulness still. As in, if only it weren't for that one wrinkle/grey hair/baggy part, I could still be mistaken for 28! Never mind BEING 28, I wouldn't go back there for all the tea found on a large continental mass where they grow a lot of tea, but at some point I know I'll have to relax and stop clutching at whatever I'm still clutching at in a few years' time. (A tube of eyeliner, probably.)

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Thursday, 5 December 2013 00:24 (ten years ago) link

i think when the day finally arrives you of all people will manage the transition very well.

estela, Thursday, 5 December 2013 00:53 (ten years ago) link

I don't think of myself as someone with wrinkles but I'm sure I have them. It's sad to think that someone would see "wrinkles" before they see ME but I guess it probably happens. Regardless, that's on the viewer, not on me.

sweat pea (La Lechera), Thursday, 5 December 2013 01:05 (ten years ago) link

I don't know who writes for The Toast but they've snuck some threads of remarkable beauty into their jokey lists.

Most of the ethereal, creepy, weird stuff is Malory Ortberg. She did a parody of "Oh The Places You'll Go" yesterday that was pretty great.

carl agatha, Thursday, 5 December 2013 01:06 (ten years ago) link

:) :) My plan is too be too busy talking to people to notice until it's already over.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Thursday, 5 December 2013 01:21 (ten years ago) link

One of the unexpected (to me) pleasures of getting older is the thing that many women lament: becoming "invisible" to men. Once I was clearly no longer a nubile young thang, my interactions with the opposite sex became more comfortable. I no longer have the insecurity that men are acting interested and appreciative of me with ulterior motives; I feel that they are acting interested and appreciative of me because I am (hopefully) and interesting and decent human being. Getting older has meant that I feel less conscious of being female and just feel like a regular ole person most of the time.

quincie, Thursday, 5 December 2013 15:42 (ten years ago) link

Being a person sounds great!

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Thursday, 5 December 2013 15:45 (ten years ago) link

Yeah I should have put some sort of emphasis on "most of the time," because as long as I look female I'm still going to be treated poorly by some.

quincie, Thursday, 5 December 2013 15:49 (ten years ago) link

i've heard about that (becoming invisible) and i feel like i have had a weird experience of this.. my self perception that i developed in early high school was of being v unattractive, just a tall ugly weirdo with glasses who wasn't feminine enough etc. and it stuck with me for a very long time; i was the target of a lot of mean personal criticism from my mother and had this baseline assumption that there was something wrong with me

in the past few years i started to take a little more care about how i look & gradually started to notice how totally everyday interactions with guys were often.. different than before, like i had superpowers i didn't know about

and i also started to think maybe it wasn't a bad thing to have been almost completely oblivious to this from ages 15-30 - i sincerely believed they were only interested in me as a friend or colleague - it was kind of chill and comfortable being oblivious

seriously, THIS GUY (daria-g), Friday, 6 December 2013 04:22 (ten years ago) link

One of the unexpected (to me) pleasures of getting older is the thing that many women lament: becoming "invisible" to men. Once I was clearly no longer a nubile young thang, my interactions with the opposite sex became more comfortable

Sadly if youre 40+ and still single like I am, this *isnt* a good thing :(

the Bronski Review (Trayce), Friday, 6 December 2013 04:30 (ten years ago) link

i've heard about that (becoming invisible) and i feel like i have had a weird experience of this.. my self perception that i developed in early high school was of being v unattractive, just a tall ugly weirdo with glasses who wasn't feminine enough etc. and it stuck with me for a very long time; i was the target of a lot of mean personal criticism from my mother and had this baseline assumption that there was something wrong with me

in the past few years i started to take a little more care about how i look & gradually started to notice how totally everyday interactions with guys were often.. different than before, like i had superpowers i didn't know about

and i also started to think maybe it wasn't a bad thing to have been almost completely oblivious to this from ages 15-30 - i sincerely believed they were only interested in me as a friend or colleague - it was kind of chill and comfortable being oblivious

― seriously, THIS GUY (daria-g), Friday, December 6, 2013 4:22 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This is completely my experience, too. Was completely invisible from 15-30.

homosexual II, Saturday, 7 December 2013 01:56 (ten years ago) link

ever since i became an adult, and even now at almost 40, middle aged drunk guys still ask for my phone number at the corner liquor store

sarahell, Saturday, 7 December 2013 01:58 (ten years ago) link

I dont even get catcalled. I'm not saying that should ever be a good thing but gah, whats wrong with me!?

the Bronski Review (Trayce), Saturday, 7 December 2013 06:09 (ten years ago) link

I dont get catcalled either, because I never go outside.

homosexual II, Monday, 9 December 2013 17:54 (ten years ago) link

If being invisible actually meant being treated like a person, chill friend/colleague interactions etc, I wd be OK with that, but in my experience it means not even being a person.

(I have often been invisible, rarely-to-never flirted with but sometimes totally blanked by dudes who were e.g. talking to me and my hott friend all evening the day before and then pretend - or maybe don't even have to pretend - they have no idea who I am when she's not there, and sometimes been the bad kind of visible: looks-based insults in the street, etc. So I'd be quite happy to reach the point where guys could ignore my looks for long enough to have a platonic conversation about my often guy-centric interests.

Or maybe the problem is just that if anyone actually wanted a conversation I'm out of practice and have forgotten how to talk to people at all. Or that I might think it meant something and then be all "but I thought he liiiked meeee" when nerdy conversations with ugly women their own age come second to bringing home hot girls half their age after all. Where's my ice floe?)

not a player-hater i just hate a lot (a passing spacecadet), Monday, 9 December 2013 21:17 (ten years ago) link

What does the long game look like for women and attractiveness and aging, because we're all pretty reasonable ppl and not youth-obsessed or w/e, and we all already know the parts about caring less, not depending on male validation, having a satisfying independent life, and so on, but none of those address the sadness of being alone when you don't want to be and looking ahead and not seeing any reasonable expectation that that will change. Or feeling like half a person bc you never see your representation being considered desirable.

And having just written that, I see that the same is true for non-white people non-able bodied people, definitely for fat ppl although I know some of us are or identify as "fat" already, so that's part of our struggle too...just true for so many people.

Is there any answer other than self-care and self-knowledge? It's necessary, isn't it, just to keep up with the damage the microaggressions do on a day-to-day basis.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Monday, 9 December 2013 22:30 (ten years ago) link

If you figure that out, let me know willya? I agree with it all - I know logically I'm good and awesome and should just get on with it and I have a fun life but man, I'm lonely sometimes.

the Bronski Review (Trayce), Monday, 9 December 2013 22:32 (ten years ago) link

At 20 I thought the ~gender gap~ was getting better and we were on the way to a universe where people could treat each other like people and there was no need for our generation to get married because we were modern and easy-going, and now I feel like, oh, if I wanted a guy my own age I had to trick them into marrying me a decade ago and hope they were scared of divorce. Choice of being alone and not even trying forever vs putting myself on OKCupid for an occasional smattering of negs from dudes 20 years older than me.

Sorry, this isn't really the thread for venting, and I know I'm not putting very much effort into making things less difficult for myself, but.

not a player-hater i just hate a lot (a passing spacecadet), Monday, 9 December 2013 22:51 (ten years ago) link

sorry, I'm not up on everyone's personal details, but it sounds like you had a recent breakup of a long term relationship? Is that true?

sarahell, Monday, 9 December 2013 23:04 (ten years ago) link

Yes depending on your values of "recent", it was in May/June but on the other hand he is still living here which may be denting the getting-over-it process a little

(i.e. a hell of lot, OK, I know this, but I... don't do living on my own very well and don't want to rush into the "moving on" thing when I'm fairly sure there isn't anything to "move on" to)

not a player-hater i just hate a lot (a passing spacecadet), Monday, 9 December 2013 23:08 (ten years ago) link

PS it is totally within my personal definition of "recent", I'm just aware it's not within some other people's

not a player-hater i just hate a lot (a passing spacecadet), Monday, 9 December 2013 23:09 (ten years ago) link

Her sparse style makes me picture my grandmother reviewing local restaurants in my hometown - which I should clarify is definitely a mental image that makes me smile

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 9 December 2013 23:11 (ten years ago) link

oh that still counts as recent in my book, especially if you were together for a long time.

and you do have something to move on to -- a life where you are in control, as opposed to having to compromise/negotiate with this guy, who has made you unhappy

sarahell, Monday, 9 December 2013 23:12 (ten years ago) link

tbh it's not really him that made me unhappy so much as the realisation that wherever I go, there I am. he was a distraction from me making myself unhappy, and then he wasn't, and I'm scared of rushing into having nothing but the thoughts in my head.

but, I am cranky of late due to health worries (nothing serious, just annoying and slightly mysterious) and work stress and Christmas, and trying to fit appointments about the first around the other two, and anticipating all the relationship/breakup-related Christmas family visit smalltalk

not a player-hater i just hate a lot (a passing spacecadet), Monday, 9 December 2013 23:26 (ten years ago) link

health issues/work stress/fitting health appts around said work stress. Yes yes yes. I totally empathise with this, having just been thru it (see above). As it happens I still havent made the gyno specialist appointment :( havent had time...

the Bronski Review (Trayce), Monday, 9 December 2013 23:27 (ten years ago) link

and I'm scared of rushing into having nothing but the thoughts in my head.

I know that feeling! And the knowledge that your thoughts and your head are things you are stuck with for the rest of your life. Other people (esp. boyfriends/lovers/spouses) come and go, but you are pretty much stuck with yourself.

sarahell, Monday, 9 December 2013 23:35 (ten years ago) link

and I realized that I had two options if I didn't want an interminably miserable life:

1. I am actually a good person and will work on making myself like me and making me someone I would like
2. suicide

sarahell, Monday, 9 December 2013 23:39 (ten years ago) link

Trayce I'm not sure if I posted during your health issues but they sounded v. stressful indeed! hope things are going better, also go and see the gyno (and I should do something similar myself)

thanks sarahell, I guess 1 is a good way to look at it instead of my brain shutting down at "I need to be someone else completely right now, but I can't, so ???" rather than concentrating on the "working on" part.

Although I am really resistant to the "working on" thing, it turns out. There are things I know I would like myself more if I could do, and keep doing, but I can't ever seem to make myself do them. The charitable reading is that it's just comforting being the same old mess I've always been rather than heading into the unknown. There are less charitable ones, of course...

not a player-hater i just hate a lot (a passing spacecadet), Tuesday, 10 December 2013 00:02 (ten years ago) link

i definitely went through a long phase of fearing that "the loneliness of not having a man will permeate every moment of my being" -- and as the years of being single have gone by (I am at year 4 now), that loneliness has occupied less and less of my time. it has gotten occasionally annoying when a well-meaning friend will ask me if I'm seeing anyone or interested in anyone, and my response is, "Actually, no. And I'm pretty content. Almost happy, even!"

sarahell, Tuesday, 10 December 2013 00:05 (ten years ago) link

it was in May/June but on the other hand he is still living here which may be denting the getting-over-it process a little

Oh sweetie! This may be super nerdy and corny, but maybe in orbit would appreciate this, but this situation reminds me of poor widow Hornwood in Game of Thrones, who ended up married to this sociopath, who married her for her title and lands, and then locked her in a tower and starved her, so she ended up eating her fingers before she eventually died. In other words, this sounds like a really unhealthy situation, and while you presumably have food and freedom of movement, it is starving you of self-esteem and the power to move on.

sarahell, Tuesday, 10 December 2013 00:31 (ten years ago) link

I've been single forever, so I am used to it. But I am very rarely lonely. I have loose plans to Grey Gardens it up with my sisters in 20 yrs.

homosexual II, Tuesday, 10 December 2013 02:05 (ten years ago) link

Having a 'partner' does not necessarily combat loneliness.

homosexual II, Tuesday, 10 December 2013 02:07 (ten years ago) link

No kidding!! I was born lonely.

sweat pea (La Lechera), Tuesday, 10 December 2013 03:23 (ten years ago) link

otm

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 10 December 2013 03:47 (ten years ago) link

Thats more what I was getting at Mand! I dont even want a partner necesarily. I would like some male companionship that didnt get drunk and shout unhinged stupid shit at me every other weekend, tho.

the Bronski Review (Trayce), Tuesday, 10 December 2013 04:16 (ten years ago) link

I'm reading Why Does He Do That: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men, and it's disconcerting how many of my boyfriends have had at least some of these traits (and I'm only on page 84). I'm going for no companionship instead of unhinged and shouty.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Tuesday, 10 December 2013 05:15 (ten years ago) link

I hear that.

the Bronski Review (Trayce), Tuesday, 10 December 2013 05:39 (ten years ago) link

Also that book sounds like an interesting read.

the Bronski Review (Trayce), Tuesday, 10 December 2013 05:39 (ten years ago) link

Having a 'partner' does not necessarily combat loneliness.

Oh sure, I very much realise that.

It's not even really about lonely or not lonely. It's just that having someone else in the flat mostly keeps me out of that bad headspace where it feels like I go to work and I come home and someone presses fast-forward and I buy food and cook and eat and wash up and sleep and go to work again and there is no space for anything in between, and every negative thought and every unidentified external noise or even smell gets amplified into an insane feedback loop. (If this sounds mad it's probably because, well, it is, but it's what I get.)

But I don't let people into my life easily, I don't get comfortable around people easily, so "get a new flatmate" is not a very comforting answer either. Though I like living here but I'm not 100% sure I could afford it alone.

not a player-hater i just hate a lot (a passing spacecadet), Tuesday, 10 December 2013 08:17 (ten years ago) link

Oh, spacecadet, I wish I could be your Fairy God-gender-neutral-Parent (but not too genderqueer to get kicked off the gurl thread) and tell you things will be Better on the other side of I-Don't-Give-A-Fuck, but there is no "Better" really, over here, there is only "Different".

But the one thing I can say with 100% confidence and accuracy, is that living in the ruins of a recently (yes, that is recently) collapsed relationship is horrible, head-twisty poisonous place to be, and you *do* have something to look forward to, in that living by yourself (which I do now) or living with/as a lodger in a stated "we don't socialise" situation (as I did before I lived here, and yes, you can view it as a purely business arrangement, that is a thing) is so much better than wandering around the ruins of What Didn't Work. You do have something to look forward to, and it's not being in that situation any more. Living alone, inside a head that tells you bad things about yourself in that feedback loop I know ~so well~ is still way, way better than living with a constant daily reminder of your romantic failures.

I mean, there are so! many! things! I could say about ageing and dating and singleness and attractiveness and how fucking unfair and gender-slanted these things are in a really unjust way - I never thought as myself as "pretty", I was always too... I dunno, aggressive and manly? But I was certainly *something* that men responded to a certain way when I was younger; and I couldn't wait to get older, so that people would Start Taking Me Seriously! Except, as I got older, and that sexyness, (which wasn't really prettiness, but was certainly youth) faded, I didn't find that people started Taking Me Seriously! they just started not taking me at all. Which was a whole new level of frustrating - but talking about all those things that would make me RAAAAAAGE and I'm not really feeling very ~into~ rage at the moment.

Spacecadet, you've probably worked out who I am by now (and if you have, please don't shout and wave it about; I remain touchy about that kinda shit) but for real - if you're feeling holiday blues, or post-holiday blues in January, come to London for the weekend to be irresponsible and bunk all the stress. We can go to the Science Museum and be 2 fat, middle-aged IT nerds geeking it up over the Babbage Machines. It'll be ossum.

Branwell Bell, Tuesday, 10 December 2013 16:17 (ten years ago) link

Wise, wise words re living with an ex.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 10 December 2013 17:31 (ten years ago) link

Hi Branwell! Thanks for your post, it was much appreciated. Hope you're doing OK. Babbaging does sound pretty ossum although I'm somewhat in recluse mode and have no idea how much time family are going to take up over Christmas.

I would like to feel less ~into~ rage, or maybe I am already not into it and it just happens anyway.

Why can't we all just be people and be into what we're into and look like whatever we look like? I know, I know, silly me.

(thoughts of Radical Faerie Godparents here)

not a player-hater i just hate a lot (a passing spacecadet), Tuesday, 10 December 2013 21:42 (ten years ago) link

Well I mean you CAN be into what you're into and look however you look. You just won't be equally valued by everyone, esp on the second count, esp if you're female-presenting. The thing that is unknowable and also worries me kinda is, it's easy to say, Any guy (in my case) who doesn't like me however I look without huge efforts is better off ruled out so I can focus my energy on other things...but what if that's every guy that I like? Blah.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Tuesday, 10 December 2013 21:45 (ten years ago) link

It's kind of like free speech? You can say what you want, but it's not free of consequences.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Tuesday, 10 December 2013 21:48 (ten years ago) link

What to do when you're not ~into~ "raaaaage" is a really good question and that's one that a year of therapy still hasn't ironed out. But I know that it's one that has to be dealt with because, firstly and less importantly, "OMG, you're so ~angry~ and ~bitter~" is always used to de-legitimise women, even in response to legitimately angry-making things. But more importantly, raaaage turns inwards and gets re-directed at yourself in those "negative thought goes round and round" patterns and leads to anxiety and depression and all those shitty places.

What is rage *for*? In limited doses, it's good for writing and doing blog posts and it's really good for drawing comics, as I've been discovering. But when it goes beyond that, and just starts eating you up, man, I don't wanna do that any more. Feel the rage and put it aside, and then go and talk to women and ask "what do we do with this rage?"

The thing is, it takes courage to just be what you're into, and look like what you look like, when you've got the whole world telling you that you should be a different way. And it really doesn't help when you get schlubby dudes going (sorry, I saw this happen in another thread recently) "oh god I'd never date IT girls because they don't have the ~confidence~ to dress all feminine, like, the way I think they should to appeal to my all-important schlubby dude libido!" To which the reply is "FUCK YOU *boot to the head* actually it takes more confidence than you will ever know to express my gender in the way I feel comfortable expressing it, and not bow down to whatever stupid shit you think I should do to my appearance to make it conform to whatever version of 'femininity' makes *you* comfortable or horny!" (except generally *boot to the head* is rather frowned upon in our society, so just think it, or act it out with your finger flicks rather than actually sinking your doc martens in their cranium, because who needs the legal hassle, y'know?)

What the fuck is "value" anyway? And I'm just bored with the idea that the only "value" women can have is fuckability (sorry, not picking on you, in orbit, you know I think you're the bees knees) and I think that might be Urgent & Key to clawing back our dignity or self-worth or whatever as we have the audacity to age and because less fuckable to schlubby dudes of the internet. Your value is wisdom, your value is experience, your value is knowledge - all those things women are no longer allowed to exemplify because we're not allowed to ~embrace the crone nature~ any more. (Wow, that sounded cheesy, but that "sudden onset cronery" link that was posted the other day - that was truly awesome and inspiring.)

Blah blah blah, sorry, I just really missed this thread. *goes back to lurk mode*

Branwell Bell, Tuesday, 10 December 2013 22:46 (ten years ago) link

Oh yeah, and Babbaging offer is open for any time, redeemable in the New Year or whenever. I just want you to know I'd totally hang out with you, and the offer is there.

Branwell Bell, Tuesday, 10 December 2013 22:48 (ten years ago) link

Oh BTW ladies: I am aware that it is almost criminally insane for me to start a thread about gender on ILX, but I would appreciate some female viewpoints on my Do U Has A Gender poll:

Core or Innate Gender Identity: Do You Have One?

I completely understand not wanting to discuss it there (in fact, I'm probably going to bow out of any discussion because good lord, I cannot do clusterfucks any more) but I would really appreciate the data. Thanks in advance!

Branwell Bell, Wednesday, 11 December 2013 21:54 (ten years ago) link

That thread is going well so far. It will only take one asshole to run it off the rails, but I think you can take comfort in the fact that most posters seem willing to discuss the topic in good faith. So far.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 11 December 2013 22:29 (ten years ago) link

there is this very nice dude at work who is totally giving me the weirds. he is nice and a good person and i like him as a human being, and as a colleague/teacher, but he gives me that look of preciousness that i hate more than a lot of other more obviously offensive things. like i mentioned something about my drums and he was like "you play the drums in your basement?" and i was like yeah and he looked at me like i was a circus animal that did a cute thing. i know the easy thing to do is to avoid/freeze but now i just feel like i can't be myself and have fun at the work holiday party because i have to be alert and careful. DISLIKE.

i don't even know what to call this look but it makes my skin crawl.

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Friday, 13 December 2013 19:11 (ten years ago) link

Is that like the "I am a man and I approve this human" look?

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Friday, 13 December 2013 19:18 (ten years ago) link

Or maybe it should be, more specifically, "...this small female human".

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Friday, 13 December 2013 19:18 (ten years ago) link

Some doctor last week told me the doctor I work for is lucky because I'm so pretty. He is old and of another time etc. but oh it was so gross. Sucks too because he's super funny and nice but now I'm like - really, dude?

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Friday, 13 December 2013 19:18 (ten years ago) link

yuk

it's more that i feel like we can't have a conversation without him observing me like an animal. i hate it.

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Friday, 13 December 2013 19:25 (ten years ago) link

i mean it's not paralyzing or infuriating or anything, i just don't feel like i can be myself and that sucks imo.

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Friday, 13 December 2013 19:27 (ten years ago) link

it's also not how my friends treat me, so if he wants to be my friend, he will stop doing this.

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Friday, 13 December 2013 19:28 (ten years ago) link

Argh, that does sound really, really annoying, if someone has a special-little-look that makes you feel non-human! But I am actually kinda having trouble imagining what this look *looks* like, like the facial contortions involved, or if it's some kinda variant on :3

But no, for real, I wouldn't know how to deal with that kinda thing, because if someone says something gross to you, you can just kinda parrot it back to them in a way that highlights the grossness, but what do you do with a *look*? give them back a *look* that is a weird grotesque parody of that look?

Still, ugh.

Branwell Bell, Friday, 13 December 2013 20:31 (ten years ago) link

It's a satisfied smirk, I guess? Like whatever I said did not warrant a smirk and yet he smirks, like that.

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Friday, 13 December 2013 20:46 (ten years ago) link

OK, now I'm picturing, like, a totally smug and smarmy smirk and it's annoying me by proxy!

Branwell Bell, Friday, 13 December 2013 21:17 (ten years ago) link

if he does it at the holiday party, i'm just going to ask why he's smiling like that. if it happens and he has an answer, i'll let you know,

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Friday, 13 December 2013 21:22 (ten years ago) link

Better yet, take a photo and if he asks why say "your expression is so weird and bothersome that my friend on the interweb wants to see it, too." ;-)

Branwell Bell, Friday, 13 December 2013 21:30 (ten years ago) link

Haha yes please do that!

carl agatha, Friday, 13 December 2013 22:56 (ten years ago) link

I will give you $5.

carl agatha, Friday, 13 December 2013 22:56 (ten years ago) link

this is making me dread the party even more! i hope it doesn't happen again tbh.

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Friday, 13 December 2013 22:59 (ten years ago) link

can we have a moratorium on any man ever saying to a woman "come on, you're smart enough to know [x obvious thing]"

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Saturday, 14 December 2013 01:21 (ten years ago) link

Come now, roxy. Surely you're smart enuff t--OW

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Saturday, 14 December 2013 01:54 (ten years ago) link

Yuk! I hate that look (I know what you are talking about, preciousness ...otm) and any male who has it, makes me want to punch him in the face. GRRRRRRRR

Once a guy, who looked at me that way, supplemented it with the following ridiculous and offensive comment;" I want a beautiful and innocent, sweet girl who is non-judgemental when it comes to drugs but doesn't do them herself". WTF?! He was always talking about some sweet and innocent type who was non-judgemental. Made me revolt, made me want to revolt and puke. It did change how I acted around him, I am not a sweet and innocent type but I'd highlight it every chance I had. Yeah, that one is still single and seeking.

*tera, Saturday, 14 December 2013 06:31 (ten years ago) link

Speaking of office christmas parties... (LL how did it go or has it not happened yet?)

How do you gurls deal with all the stresses and annoyances of the ~holiday season~? (using that terminology to avoid committing to or excluding any winter festivals, but feel free to discuss whatever holiday you celebrate - or don't.) Like, I'm not asking do you love/hate it coz everyone has their take and being all "yuck, I'm a grinch" is as valid a reaction as "it is the bestest! time! ever!" but more how do you functionally avoid the annoyances and enjoy what aspects you can?

Obv this will have a different answer depending on whether your tradition is "spend it with your family" vs "spend it with partner's family" vs "have no family; do my best to avoid the whole thing"

I've spent the past several years always going down to Cornwall for Winter Solstice, which had turned into a wonderful tradition and way to avoid both Christmas and the no-family thing. This is the first holiday in ages I've spent in London, to the point where it feels odd and disjointed not to have my ~traditional traditions~ without even realising that those things had snuck into my mind as traditions!

Curious as to your takes, experiences, tips!

Branwell Bell, Monday, 16 December 2013 11:04 (ten years ago) link

How do you gurls deal with all the stresses and annoyances of the ~holiday season~?

Booze mostly.

This year I had a baby, which was a pretty good excuse to avoid holiday travel and to excuse us from perfunctory family gift giving but that was really a one time solution.

So, booze.

carl agatha, Monday, 16 December 2013 13:01 (ten years ago) link

I just do the stuff I want to do, and try not to do the stuff I don't. Our families are very chill and we split time between then so less chance of arguments.
Also we do a 'pre-Christmas Christmas' with a very select few at our house - just did it yesterday and made ALL the delicious food and chilled out without any travel/present/family stress so at least you can bank on having *one* good christmassy day out of it all.

kinder, Monday, 16 December 2013 13:08 (ten years ago) link

Booze, haha, yeah, I suspect that's a big one. But I have really seriously moved into a place of "you are not allowed to use booze as a way of dealing with social pressures EVER. AGAIN" (rather than a "never drink, ever again" approach to dealing with my problem drinking) which is why I've been nursing half pints at parties for this entire season.

"All the delicious food at your house!" is a brilliant idea!

I might do a post-Christmas "all the delicious food" to try and reconnect with people I've lost touch with; I used to always do a big Burns Night thing because it's late enough that people have stopped having too many social commitments to find time for another Xmas-based one, and late January is so relentless that it's a good time for another feast.

Branwell Bell, Monday, 16 December 2013 13:40 (ten years ago) link

(LL how did it go or has it not happened yet?)

It happened on Friday, and it was mostly ok, but some things did occur. Good parts first 1) I successfully avoided him most of the time (but he snuck up behind me twice) 2) I had unselfconscious fun, danced with 3 different coworkers (there is a strong dancing culture at my school to put it mildly) and none of them were him.

Now for the unfortunate part -- he lives like 3 blocks from me, so he asked me for a ride home. I was going to try to sneak out without him seeing me, but I couldn't. On the ride home, I couldn't see his face, so I don't know if he was smirking, but he was asking me 1000 questions* and was being (i don't even know which adjective i want here) about my drumming. You may think I'm being harsh, but it was stuff like telling a deeply unfunny "drummers are dumb" joke and yet being ignorant that there are many different styles of drumming. He was like "I'm not a musician, I don't know about drumming" and I was like you have ears, right? That's when I got mad and snapped at him. I am a noob drummer, but I am not an idiot. So we pulled up, he got out, and I sped away, did not look back to check to make sure he got in. THEN he sent me a fucking email on Sunday about one of the songs I mentioned. I am ignoring the shit out of that email.

At worst, I feel like I'm under surveillance, which I absolutely LOATHE. At best, this is annoying and will go away. Unfortunately, still gotta work together. Know what it is? He is acting like this is a rom com and there is absolutely NO ROM AND NO COM. And I quadruple hate romcoms.

* I like it when people show interest in something I'm doing if they don't treat it like a trick that a circus poodle is doing, ie if they take me seriously.

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Monday, 16 December 2013 14:19 (ten years ago) link

sorry for the babble

as for holidays, i have several coping devices:

* a trip somewhere that i really want to go
* hibernation
* a project that is completely unrelated to holidays
* politely declining all invitations that i don't actively want to accept

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Monday, 16 December 2013 14:21 (ten years ago) link

I'm not going to be all "read stuff into this behaviour" but it actually sounds like this guy has one hell of an "INAPPROPRIATE PROFESSIONAL ATTACHMENT" crush on you. Ugh ugh ugh. On both sides.

Learn To Keep Your Mouth Shut, (Branwell Bell), Monday, 16 December 2013 14:30 (ten years ago) link

I love the holidays but then I love my family and we have a nice memory-containing homestead to go back to. It's not perfect, but it's a lot. Plus even the parts of the hols that I'm in NY for, everyone is having parties and feels social, so it's easy to get together w ppl which is what I really like to do.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Monday, 16 December 2013 14:33 (ten years ago) link

I love the holidays. I just wish my family wasn't so fucked up. Last year the Christmas week was probably literally the worst year of my life. How did I cope with it? By drinking too much and making myself throw up so not very well! This year should be better. As fucking horrible as this is going to sound, I actually look forward to a time when I can have and make Christmas all my own as my mother has essentially ruined nearly every single Christmas and birthday of mine (it's right after Christmas) since I was 15. Last year she fell on flat on her face during Christmas dinner and then took me out for my birthday and got so drunk she puked at the table in the restaurant and we had to leave so, you know, fun times.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Monday, 16 December 2013 14:45 (ten years ago) link

omg enbb that sounds really really awful. i'm sorry.

last comment about my irritating coworker -- whatever it is, i can't stand it and i wish he would just stop. if he is trying to be my friend, this is not how it's done.

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Monday, 16 December 2013 14:47 (ten years ago) link

Btw LL that guy sounds terrible. Yay dancing though!

xp ENBB: I look forward to a less toxic time for you, just overall.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Monday, 16 December 2013 14:50 (ten years ago) link

It's hard enough to work on our shit and examine what we do and get better when the things that we're supposed to be healing from aren't still happening in the present.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Monday, 16 December 2013 14:53 (ten years ago) link

Oh Laurel, that just made me tear up. I do too. Thank you.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Monday, 16 December 2013 15:01 (ten years ago) link

it was brave of you to write that, e -- i have a hard time talking about things, and i can't even imagine what it would take for me to be able to share something that personal. it takes a lot of courage to go through stuff like this. it sounds like you're on the right side of things and optimistic? at least?

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Monday, 16 December 2013 15:07 (ten years ago) link

(if not, that's ok too, being only child with atypical parents is familiar territory)

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Monday, 16 December 2013 15:09 (ten years ago) link

(also not sure what typical parents are, but i think you know what i mean? i hope.)

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Monday, 16 December 2013 15:10 (ten years ago) link

Know what it is? He is acting like this is a rom com and there is absolutely NO ROM AND NO COM. And I quadruple hate romcoms.

a friend of mine has one of these situations at work and it sounds hellish - she discovered (after he'd, like, gone into a huff and refused to talk to her for a day when she said she couldn't go to see some film with him because she had a date) that he thought that when she mentioned going on dates with people she'd been doing it reactively, in response to him having gone on dates, in order to… make him jealous??? show him that she wasn't waiting on him???

that vertiginous sense of 'this person has invented a narrative based on me and they're acting like it's really happened and i honestly can't tell how deep this delusion goes,' which is always horrible; but especially when it's someone at work who you can't really avoid and who can make your life really difficult if they choose to.

xposts oh ENBB, how awful and exhausting it must be -- i hope this year is better! i don't think it's wrong to sometimes long for the future where you don't have to think of the christmas-and-birthday season with dread.

if you're happy and you know it, it's false consciousness (c sharp major), Monday, 16 December 2013 15:16 (ten years ago) link

that vertiginous sense of 'this person has invented a narrative based on me and they're acting like it's really happened and i honestly can't tell how deep this delusion goes,' which is always horrible; but especially when it's someone at work who you can't really avoid and who can make your life really difficult if they choose to.

totally completely otm and i've never seen it articulated so clearly --esp the "can't tell how deep the delusion goes" paired with "who you can't really avoid"
can also hear with 100% clarity what your friend is going through. anyone at work who is going to go into a huff had better have a really good reason for it, and anyone who goes into a huff like that must be hell on earth to deal with on a more personal basis. that's waaaaaay worse than my situation.

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Monday, 16 December 2013 15:22 (ten years ago) link

she's finding it especially hard because he was one of her "work friends", so there's that impulse to go back over her memories of their interactions and try and work out where what she thought was plain friendliness might have seemed to him romantic encouragement. Even though that's a hiding to nowhere, she is not responsible for his wacko interpretations of her behaviour, she was pretty clearly not "leading him on", etc. The worst.

if you're happy and you know it, it's false consciousness (c sharp major), Monday, 16 December 2013 16:05 (ten years ago) link

yes, that part is totally the same! i thought he was someone i could joke with, but no.

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Monday, 16 December 2013 16:07 (ten years ago) link

I'm really really cringing here, because of memories of mine own Inappropriate Professional Attachment from 2 years ago and how that did end with a huff which probably looked ridiculous to anyone else not in that office and that situation. (I got in a huff and stopped speaking him because in a deliberate act of social aggression, he offered biscuits to every. single. person. in the office (even the guy who sat next to me which made it patently obvious and ridiculous) except me - but that was not actually about the biscuits, and on another level, it wasn't even about the IPA, it was about him going over my head to speak to my boss about stuff I should have been involved with, and a host of actual, work-related stuff which was starting to really rub me the wrong way.)

So I am not defending either the crusher or the unfortunate crushee, but just saying this is often a shitty, horrible situation for everybody involved in it. That, however, does not excuse shitty, horrible behaviour on the part of the crusher. It's the "can't really avoid" situation that makes it so untenably awful.

Learn To Keep Your Mouth Shut, (Branwell Bell), Monday, 16 December 2013 16:07 (ten years ago) link

yeah. i also clam up when i feel like i'm being watched, like i totally completely hate it, and i was just starting to enjoy the feeling of being relaxed about stuff like that. like i was already getting paranoid about him googling a pair of words and finding me here! i just hate it.

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Monday, 16 December 2013 16:17 (ten years ago) link

re holiday coping

I usually do pretty well with the holidays because I enjoy it and I don't have a lot of party commitments or too much in the way of crazy family drama to sour it. Usually. However last Christmas I ended up in tears by lunchtime on Christmas Day - I was staying at my inlaws and I felt like I was trapped in some kind of bad-vibes prison, it was horrible. In that instance, my remedy was to change the scenery as quickly as possible - get lunch over and done and out of the way, pack up our stuff and get out of there, return to my own house, watch a good movie and talk to my Mum back in Australia. Cleanse all the bad vibes out of me, basically.

I don't know how I could cope if that happened every year.

E, I'm so sorry that you're going through that. And anyone else who has a rough/emotional time over Christmas. idk what the thing to do is, except to find ways/moments to be kind to yourself, etc. <3

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 16 December 2013 16:39 (ten years ago) link

I dunno, it's always kinda awkward to talk about ~holiday stuff~ and there's such a pressure to *not be a grinch about it* to the point where it's hard to even admit that this can be a fucking difficult time of year, especially for those of us with, um, *complicated* family arrangements (because yeah, what is typical? there is no typical.) Even saying "it's hard to say things are hard" gets greeted with a "that's a cliche, just shut up and have some christmas cheer."

I'm just annoyed about Not Going To Cornwall because Cornwall is the thing-I-do-instead-of-Christmas. Because my immediate family live a couple of thousand miles away, and the family is not just "broken" but triangulated, to the point where none of the three other members speak to each other (and I'm trying to minimise contact with one of them, myself). Usually, not being anywhere near my family is a source of comfort and relief at this time of the year.

But this year, for the first time ever, I went on holiday to visit my Mum, and I stayed with her for a month solid, to the point where it stopped being visiting and actually felt like "OK, this is home" and "this is My People" and right now, not being around her, (or even being able to be around her (and even if I could go visit her, which I can't afford to, because if I could afford to go anywhere I would go to Cornwall) because Christmas is her busiest working day/season of the whole year) - well, right now it's just this giant hungry hole of "WAAAAAAHHHH I wants My People."

I don't even know where my people are any more. I guess people in London have got so used to the idea that I'm not available for anything over Xmas that I don't even get asked to things any more, so it's not a question of turning down awkward invitations. I've got the box set of Cosmos for Xmas day, so that's sorted. London is just so dark and so unfriendly and I'm already missing the lights and bonfires and pagan shit of the Cornish festive season.

So I don't have any advice or anything to add at all, really, just shout-outs and solidarity to anyone who is finding it tough, this year, or any, really.

Learn To Keep Your Mouth Shut, (Branwell Bell), Monday, 16 December 2013 17:56 (ten years ago) link

(Probably also brought on by being at a big, sprawling family party of an old, old friend last night, which at the time was really great and wonderful, because it was fabulous catching up with lots of people I hadn't seen in years. But at the same time, it's hard to look at someone else's big, sprawling, celebrating family and not feel a hint of "don't got that" sads.)

Learn To Keep Your Mouth Shut, (Branwell Bell), Monday, 16 December 2013 17:59 (ten years ago) link

((Now I feel like I've ~bummed out~ the thread and I hate feeling like that :( ))

Learn To Keep Your Mouth Shut, (Branwell Bell), Monday, 16 December 2013 18:07 (ten years ago) link

not at all! honestly from the people I know and friends etc, I feel like it's actually more common that ppl feel similarly to you. Christmas Dissonance is how I think of it.

You're totally allowed to have those kinda feels at Christmas -- honestly I feel more like a freak for not feeling that way, it seems like all of my friends have that same sort of, idk, 'christmas dissonance', at varying levels.

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 16 December 2013 18:23 (ten years ago) link

oh and hey here's me repeating myself in two separate sentences yay for not editing :(

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 16 December 2013 18:24 (ten years ago) link

(got super busy at work but thank you for the kind words :) )

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Monday, 16 December 2013 18:30 (ten years ago) link

But at the same time, it's hard to look at someone else's big, sprawling, celebrating family and not feel a hint of "don't got that" sads.)

i get this *all the time* -- know exactly what you mean. one time i had to leave a wedding because i was having a crying fit.

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Monday, 16 December 2013 18:39 (ten years ago) link

BB, I have been thinking about the thread you referred to a few posts ago! I will Never Ever post on it because bad idea but it was appreciated at the time.
E, hope you can do as much of your own thing as you want this year.

So this will probably be the first 'normal' Christmas I've had in 5 years - for 3 years I lived too far away from the fam but secretly (guiltily) enjoyed just Skyping then keeping it super low-key. Last year was extremely stressful due to medical and financial and sabotaging neighbour stuff so this year I'm doing it properly and going full guns blazing with Christmas cheer, as it could be the last one we do in the same way. It's also the longest break from work either of us will have had in a year.

kinder, Monday, 16 December 2013 18:43 (ten years ago) link

"Christmas Dissonance" is a really good word for it, thanks for that VG.

(we shall never speak of that thread again, shall we)

Learn To Keep Your Mouth Shut, (Branwell Bell), Monday, 16 December 2013 19:18 (ten years ago) link

Christmas is generally fine. New Year's, otoh, with the expectations of romance and joyous nostalgia and having all your favorite people around you -- that's the one that gets to me.

sarahell, Monday, 16 December 2013 21:42 (ten years ago) link

E, I'm so sorry that you're going through that. And anyone else who has a rough/emotional time over Christmas.

cosigning this

I like my parents and lived with them for many years longer than normal people and even I am looking at my Christmas travel plans wondering if I can really bear to be around them for as long as is required*, so, yeah, Christmas. Good vibes to all.

(* last time I stayed with them for the weekend and felt like I was going mad and could not wait to get out of there by Saturday evening. This time will be several days for reasons of transport and fitting in visits to all the other relatives - which I still totally want to do because I don't see them v. often and my grandmother is getting on and hasn't been in the best of health lately. At least now they have wi-fi and I have a smartphone for surreptitious ILX breaks.)

not a player-hater i just hate a lot (a passing spacecadet), Monday, 16 December 2013 22:19 (ten years ago) link

Cis, as an aside which I don't want to end in badness because I can't cope with any more badness today, but it's quibbling over hairs to say the term "mansplain" is really not Feminist Theory proper because you're right, technically it's not, but it's certainly within the remit of feminist-stuff-and-womens-issues as discussed on ILX threads about feminism and the like.

And now I really really need to go and look at kittens and sea arches for a while because when you reach that point where you get so used to microaggressions that *everything* looks like a microaggression really it's time for kittens and sea arches.

Now back to Christmas and kittens, already in progress.

Branwell Bell, Tuesday, 17 December 2013 12:53 (ten years ago) link

While we're putting c#maj-aimed asides to that thread here, I meant to say that I really enjoyed that Ursula Le Guin interview, except I forgot to do so in a timely manner and now the thread subject is a bit bleak to do so. So thanks for the link.

not a player-hater i just hate a lot (a passing spacecadet), Tuesday, 17 December 2013 13:01 (ten years ago) link

Yeah, cosign that Le Guin interview was very good, I enjoyed that one.

Branwell Bell, Tuesday, 17 December 2013 13:03 (ten years ago) link

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here, BB. (Though not on kitten and sea arches! or Le Guin!)

if you're happy and you know it, it's false consciousness (c sharp major), Tuesday, 17 December 2013 13:07 (ten years ago) link

Well, it depends what part you're disagreeing with.

Because I have read a heck of a lot of Feminist Linguistics Theory and "the tendency of men to interrupt women" and "the tendency of men to dominate conversations with women" and "the tendency of men to ignore things that women say until those things are taken up by a man" are all p thoroughly documented and interpreted and and discussed and addressed in Feminist Linguistics Theory. At length. So are you saying that "the tendency of men to explain things to women, especially things with which women are already much more familiar than said men" cannot be validly added to that corpus, or that the jokey and itself mocking name "mansplain" has no business being used to describe that corpus of behaviour or defended as "feminist theory" ?

Branwell Bell, Tuesday, 17 December 2013 13:29 (ten years ago) link

I'm saying that I won't have this discussion with you here.

if you're happy and you know it, it's false consciousness (c sharp major), Tuesday, 17 December 2013 13:56 (ten years ago) link

ugh, that sounds so abrupt - i don't think this thread is the place for it, and like you said it's probably not going into on that thread, so i think it's fine to leave it as an aside and move on.

if you're happy and you know it, it's false consciousness (c sharp major), Tuesday, 17 December 2013 13:58 (ten years ago) link

*not worth going into

if you're happy and you know it, it's false consciousness (c sharp major), Tuesday, 17 December 2013 13:58 (ten years ago) link

:(

Branwell Bell, Tuesday, 17 December 2013 13:58 (ten years ago) link

Well, at the time, the options being "have that discussion on a thread that I have unfortunately rendered full of really triggery shit about sex with children" vs "have that discussion on a thread full of petulant manchildren who are mad that feminism took their ~discussion of masculinity~ away" or take that discussion to email so, um, now I feel really bad about asking the question in the first place.

Branwell Bell, Tuesday, 17 December 2013 14:03 (ten years ago) link

Haha. Awww, this thread is the best.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Tuesday, 17 December 2013 14:04 (ten years ago) link

Keep talking, it's distracting me from the fact that half my back is in spasm.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Tuesday, 17 December 2013 14:04 (ten years ago) link

We should probably go back to a picture of a Christmas Kitten on a Sea Arch.

Branwell Bell, Tuesday, 17 December 2013 14:05 (ten years ago) link

x-post oh no! Back problems are horrible! I do those "lie on the floor, pull your knees slowly up to your chest" exercises, or failing that, codeine.

Branwell Bell, Tuesday, 17 December 2013 14:06 (ten years ago) link

I have this handy dandy foam roller from my PT earlier this year and actually it's great but it means I have to sit on the floor in weird positions and can't post to ilx.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Tuesday, 17 December 2013 14:07 (ten years ago) link

xp to BB -- eh, i just know i don't agree with you and don't have the mental space to devote to the argument, that's all. Please don't feel bad on my account!

if you're happy and you know it, it's false consciousness (c sharp major), Tuesday, 17 December 2013 14:07 (ten years ago) link

What thread?

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 18 December 2013 14:15 (ten years ago) link

two weeks pass...

Phil D posted this on the Genderqueer thread, but really, it could probably be the ur-Comic of this thread and every space like it!

http://www.robot-hugs.com/but-men/

Branwell Bell, Friday, 3 January 2014 16:04 (ten years ago) link

Haha! that reminds me of the guy who coded a chatbot to challenge climate change deniers on twitter!

sarahell, Friday, 3 January 2014 22:38 (ten years ago) link

I love that.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 7 January 2014 15:45 (ten years ago) link

si o no:

women are good party planners
women are better party planners than men are
women enjoy party planning

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Wednesday, 8 January 2014 15:34 (ten years ago) link

the answer is no obviously
i just started to realize how much the world of party planning falls into the "women's work" category, at least ime.
i know this because people expect me to do it, and i have absolutely no track record of success in this department. they must be asking me because i am a woman?

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Wednesday, 8 January 2014 15:41 (ten years ago) link

NOPE x3

Falls under "Emotional labour" which is coded "female" because it is hard work and also low paid and low valued and we do it because of GUILT but that ain't the same as being ~naturally good at it~ or enjoying it.

Branwell Bell, Wednesday, 8 January 2014 16:02 (ten years ago) link

well people do it for a lot of reasons -- i think some people enjoy getting a party together. other people just are naturally chill enough to let parties and social gatherings coalesce around them at any given point. i'm sure there are lots of other kinds of people who party plan for reasons other than guilt, but yeah -- guilt is a big one.

well anyway, i have been thinking a lot about this bc of work.

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Wednesday, 8 January 2014 16:07 (ten years ago) link

Oh god don't even talk to me about the expectation that women should do this at work.

About 15 years ago, one of the first jobs I had in the UK, it was a job which had been "office manager" which got diverted into "database/IT manager" when I joined, but still had a lot of "office manager" type tasks assigned to it. One of which was to organise food/drinks for meetings, social events (it was an advertising agency, there were a lot of these nebulous not-a-formal-meeting-but social events), etc.

The first one, I think I produced, like 3 packs of stale biscuits (still in the pack) and a pot of tea you could stand your spoon up in (because that's how I like it!) The company owner was basically "we are never letting Branwell do this task again, person should stick to IT from now on, huh?" after that. And transferred the role to the receptionist. Who was, of course, female. Sigh.

Branwell Bell, Wednesday, 8 January 2014 16:13 (ten years ago) link

Love all the party planning committee bits of The Office (US) so much
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0n9bozzii1r4e1cuo1_500.png

kinder, Wednesday, 8 January 2014 18:17 (ten years ago) link

Funnily enough, I just applied for a job I really want that is basically party planning and bridge building and contacting ppl to get them to like you/do what you want. It sounds perfect!! For me.

Horreur! What are this disassociated lumps of (in orbit), Wednesday, 8 January 2014 19:02 (ten years ago) link

For a good cause that affects me personally and that I believe in, which makes it even more appealing.

Horreur! What are this disassociated lumps of (in orbit), Wednesday, 8 January 2014 19:03 (ten years ago) link

you have very polished soft skills -- it does sound perfect for you!

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Wednesday, 8 January 2014 19:05 (ten years ago) link

good luck in orbit! I am p. sure you would be awesome at it.

(I am also p. sure that all those things are basically the things I'm worst at in my job x1000. if only I could isolate the things I enjoy and am OK at with such clarity)

not a player-hater i just hate a lot (a passing spacecadet), Wednesday, 8 January 2014 19:09 (ten years ago) link

contacting ppl to get them to like you/do what you want
this is a huge part of my job too, only minus the contacting (which is the part i would be the worst at)

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Wednesday, 8 January 2014 19:22 (ten years ago) link

Good luck, In Orbit, hope that they see how perfect you are at this job, and give it to you, and also lots of money for doing it so wonderfully!

But also! The recognition that this is a set of skills. For which you should be paid. Not something people just assume you have and will love doing, for free, because of lady-hood.

(Pls keep bridge-building and parties away from me, and just let me have a nice cruddy chunk of data to wrassle into shape, or a big chunk of code to debug. In my basement, with a door on it to keep out parties)

Branwell Bell, Wednesday, 8 January 2014 19:41 (ten years ago) link

I never thought I could possibly contact people and get them to like me and do what I want, but it's one of the things I miss most about my last job. As long as it can be done on my own terms and doesn't have to be driven by someone else's ideas about what works, and as long as it's not Mission Impossible from the start, turns out I enjoy it. Also, it has to be for a decent cause - which in orbit's job would be for sure.

ljubljana, Wednesday, 8 January 2014 20:47 (ten years ago) link

Fingers crossed, io.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 8 January 2014 20:53 (ten years ago) link

I like parties. I like planning things. One of the best parts about party planning for me, is that I won't have to suffer mediocre cheese.

sarahell, Wednesday, 8 January 2014 20:59 (ten years ago) link

or the same cheap wine that everyone else has ... but mostly the cheese. I have strong feelings re cheese.

sarahell, Wednesday, 8 January 2014 21:01 (ten years ago) link

Thanks! I mean I grew up hating people, ie the people around me, and I've worked on my curmudgeon impression for so long that it's weird to air the micro-managey hostess and social lubricant and stereotypically "womanly" side of me. But I realized if I wanted to be happy at my job, it had to have those things in it to some degree because connecting w people is what energizes me, gender roles be damned. So here we are, I dearly want to plan an annual gala and draft emails to strangers to convince them to care about my issue.

xxp OH YES

Horreur! What are this disassociated lumps of (in orbit), Wednesday, 8 January 2014 21:02 (ten years ago) link

I mean I grew up hating people, ie the people around me, and I've worked on my curmudgeon impression for so long that it's weird to air the micro-managey hostess and social lubricant and stereotypically "womanly" side of me. But I realized if I wanted to be happy at my job, it had to have those things in it to some degree because connecting w people is what energizes me, gender roles be damned.

Whoa! I am kinda the same way.

Like, one of my favorite movies that I saw as a teenager was this 70s film called "Smile" about a teen beauty pageant, and one of the funny, eye-rolly bits is how in the interview segments all the girls either said (or were prompted to say) that their goal in life was to "help others" -- and now, in my current profession, I explain to friends, that one of the things I enjoy about it is that I work with people and "help them"

sarahell, Wednesday, 8 January 2014 21:07 (ten years ago) link

"Connecting with other people is what energizes me, gender roles be damned!" = you are an extrovert. Gender roles have nothing to do with it!

But this is the whole point of the thing! Personality, it is something that male people and female people and all other people have in all kinds of different flavours! Getting energy from people or not = A Thing. A Thing called Extroversion or Introversion. It is NOT "Women be chatty and social" vs "Men be strong and silent types" which is just gender-flavoured bullshit.

Branwell Bell, Wednesday, 8 January 2014 21:32 (ten years ago) link

Exactly, but for me, at least, the extroversion and "helpfulness" associated with the "this is what women are like" gender role was something I rebelled against because of its association with the gender role and the other things about it that I found off-putting: breeding, meekness, always "thinking of the children" ... etc.

sarahell, Wednesday, 8 January 2014 21:37 (ten years ago) link

the other things about "this is what women are like" - traditional gender roles (if the above was unclear)

sarahell, Wednesday, 8 January 2014 21:37 (ten years ago) link

Yeah, I think I understand what you're saying. Like, you felt put off something you felt very drawn to, because you didn't want to conform to a shitty stereotype? When really, it was better for you to forget the rest of the stereotype and go "this bit is me! this bit is me, regardless of the rest."

I found it helpful to reframe "I like sitting in a corner by myself, fixing a thing" because I am introvert, rather than because I am a Failed Girl. But gender roles are used to punish people both for conforming to them (if you are a cis woman) and not conforming to them.

Branwell Bell, Wednesday, 8 January 2014 21:43 (ten years ago) link

the extroversion and "helpfulness" associated with the "this is what women are like" gender role was something I rebelled against because of its association with the gender role and the other things about it that I found off-putting: breeding, meekness, always "thinking of the children" ... etc.

Yeppers. Also because when you fulfill certain parts of the role, men/people in power tend to write you off as not one of them and stop hearing you and start condescending to you, and THAT was sure an unappealing prospect. I'm past that now in a few different ways, not least that I've spent enough time sharpening my claws that I don't fear misogynistic dismissal or whatever.

Horreur! What are this disassociated lumps of (in orbit), Wednesday, 8 January 2014 21:46 (ten years ago) link

know what else is kinda weird? i have felt, in the past, over the years, a kind of skepticism or maybe even a whiff of judgment from people who can't seem to reconcile that there can be very "trad gender role" impulses that have nothing to do with conforming to gender roles. in some ways i am extremely "feminine"; in other ways, i am the least feminine person of anyone i know. and yet i continue to exist? how can this be?

for example, the fact that i do all of the shopping, food prep, and cooking in my household. i don't do this because anyone has ever expected me to, or because i feel pressure to or because i feel guilty about not doing it. i do it because i enjoy it (most of the time) and mostly i do it because i am good at it! it is one of my skills, i should probably use it, right? but i've felt some latent hostility from various fronts over the years (not in my home but def in my friend circle) about whether or not this is equitable/feminist of me in spite of the fact that i have continued to be happy with the situation.

so any general effort to see that it's not all black/white and we don't all have to be the same way and that a person can accidentally conform to gender role expectations not because she is being oppressed but because it makes sense for her is a good thing. that was a terribly formed sentence but hopefully not confusing.

tl;dr - people are complex yay

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Thursday, 9 January 2014 00:04 (ten years ago) link

We are all learning, and trying to live out our lives more freely of centuries of constraint; and resisting internalised misogyny (in whatever form it takes) is hard work.

On one level, "fuck judgement" because who has time for that shit, but on another level, if person find perself judging people guilty of "judgement" based on whiffs and latency, person is peself partaking in the same negative form of "judgement."

Person has a choice: person can start the judging game all over again, "judging you, judging me" in an endless cycle. Or person can work on judging others less perself, and trying more to forgive/accept/not sweat the people who may be overcorrecting for years of being judged perselves, and found wanting.

People are complex. Everybody is on their own journey. Those journeys will of course all be different.

And using "person" instead of pronouns makes me feel like fucking Yoda, but it's really helping *me* escape the tyranny both of "he/she" and also the ambiguity of you/I/we.

Branwell Bell, Thursday, 9 January 2014 10:19 (ten years ago) link

The pronouns thing is a cool move BB; I'm enjoying watching you grapple with it. I'm finding it awkward to read at the moment but I'll be interested to see if it gets to feel more natural, if you keep doing it.

I get the 'rejection of gender stereotyped activities thing' so, so much - it took me til my thirties to embrace things like baking and knitting, because of the overwhelming association of these things in my mind with my grandmothers and the WI, and I was *not* going to be some little woman who stayed home and made cupcakes. I was missing out on some damn enjoyable things :( so I look to the day when all of it can be stripped of genderisation so people can just do what they like doing.

poor fishless bastard (Zora), Thursday, 9 January 2014 11:06 (ten years ago) link

Zora, have you read Woman On The Edge Of Time? (Where the "person" pronoun comes from) Because it's fantastic, it's the kind of Sci-Fi I think you might really like (and it grapples a lot with the boundaries between "insane person" and "sane person in an insane world" and also a ton of stuff we have talked about in person) and I wish it weren't a library book so I could lend it to you.

Branwell Bell, Thursday, 9 January 2014 11:15 (ten years ago) link

(I am having a lot of trouble with the ambiguities of the word "we" at the moment. Because as a word, it can mean both "me and you" and also "me and other people (who may not be you)" and when one switch back and forth between the former and the latter in the same paragraph, one can end up with jerk-faced persons who wish to discredit one's entire person saying stupid things like "what is this, 'the royal we'?" maybe because they are incapable of understanding the ambiguous subtleties of the word "we" but also maybe because they are just jerk-faces.)

((Is this subposting? I don't know, it might be. But I have been talking about pronouns here, so I'm going to put it here, as opposed to just randomly digging up a grammar thread to stick it on. I might go and put the "why I am using person as a pronoun" explanation on the genderqueer thread, but even less people read that then read this thread.))

It's funny, WRT knitting and baking, I know almost as many male persons who enjoy those activities, so it's almost like they've become un-gendered. (Thinking of Ed and per knitting-as-engineering-projects, which were great to watch.) I neither knit nor bake, but I've finally got to a place where I can say "well, it's just because I'm not very good at them, I don't have the patience to master them, and I'd rather spend time my on activities I am good at, like sketching or making curries" rather than feeling terrible about being a failed girl.

Branwell Bell, Thursday, 9 January 2014 11:30 (ten years ago) link

I haven't, it's going on the to-read list. I'm not sure how I missed that as it does sound right up my alley.

poor fishless bastard (Zora), Thursday, 9 January 2014 13:05 (ten years ago) link

Oh it's so good.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Thursday, 9 January 2014 13:43 (ten years ago) link

E would you be at all interested in doing a book club type thread about it? Coz I have so! many! questions! and "how did Piercy *do* that?" I am dying to talk about, but not on this thread coz spoilers.

Branwell Bell, Thursday, 9 January 2014 14:09 (ten years ago) link

We are all learning, and trying to live out our lives more freely of centuries of constraint; and resisting internalised misogyny (in whatever form it takes) is hard work.

On one level, "fuck judgement" because who has time for that shit, but on another level, if person find perself judging people guilty of "judgement" based on whiffs and latency, person is peself partaking in the same negative form of "judgement."

Person has a choice: person can start the judging game all over again, "judging you, judging me" in an endless cycle. Or person can work on judging others less perself, and trying more to forgive/accept/not sweat the people who may be overcorrecting for years of being judged perselves, and found wanting.

cmon, i'm not a prescriptivist. i hope after...8? years here people understand that :(
i know you were working on pronoun usage, but it made me feel kinda misunderstood and generally bummed. it's not like i've changed my name 1000x.

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Thursday, 9 January 2014 14:57 (ten years ago) link

which was not a personal dig btw!! i just haven't changed my name at all and was wondering why i hadn't.

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Thursday, 9 January 2014 14:58 (ten years ago) link

i guess the flip side of this is that i have been totes undercover for 8 straight years! that's pretty awesome by itself.

anyway, wish i had never brought it up, the end.

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Thursday, 9 January 2014 15:03 (ten years ago) link

I struggled a little to love your choice w/r/t all the food stuff, LL! I hope I always respected that it was your decision, but it took me a while to completely internally, like, understand it because I had never seen that role modeled in a way that didn't ALSO have a bad power dynamic. So I really learned something from you. Thanks for that!

Horreur! What are this disassociated lumps of (in orbit), Thursday, 9 January 2014 16:26 (ten years ago) link

glad to be of service :)

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Thursday, 9 January 2014 17:09 (ten years ago) link

Lol the other day a female friend was telling me about how she used to joke that someone should invent a vibrator that's built into, like, a weighted pillow so it's like being in bed w an actual person, and I cracked, "Will it also ask me what's for dinner?" because just ugh.

Horreur! What are this disassociated lumps of (in orbit), Thursday, 9 January 2014 17:10 (ten years ago) link

OK, sorry, that was completely clumsy impersonal pronoun use. Because "person" in that sense was an abstract person, could be "you" could be "I" but just trying to say, like, judging goes round in endless circles and that's a bad and unhelpful thing.

Like, I feel like, as one of the loudest "gender is a social construct!" voices, like I'm included in the whiffs and the latency. And just trying to say that when it seems like I'm being really judgey (that was such a great memeword? whatever happened to judgey?) about people conforming to gender roles, it's coming from a deep place of gender confusion of "gender! what the fuck is that about, and why do people keep using it to try to beat me with?" rather than the "wow, girly girls are so fucking terrible" that it might be read as.

Girly girls confuse the fuck out of me, because I am so *not* one of them. I resist being made to be one, because that simply isn't who/what I am made of. But I also recognise that Gender Roles are used to universally beat women with, and "girly girls are terrible: don't be like them because gender roles are constructs" is just the other end of the bat which has always been used to beat me.

Like, we (specifically LL and me, but also every woman in the world) are arguing with a bunch of phantoms built from patriarchy and our own fears. And it's too easy to project those phantoms onto ourselves or each other. I was trying to say "I feel a bit hurt by that statement, but instead of having another round of projection and hurt feelings, let's put it into the general abstract instead." Guess I failed really, really badly at that, huh?

OK, I am going to get off ILX for a bit because I have had a really heavy session and I am feeling fucking frail like I am going to burst into tears for family-related reasons nothing to do with ILX, but I apologise unreservedly, if you thought I was having a go. I was trying to do the opposite of having a go, and ended up hurting you anyway. I'm sorry.

Branwell Bell, Thursday, 9 January 2014 18:43 (ten years ago) link

it's ok -- hope you feel better soon.

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Thursday, 9 January 2014 23:24 (ten years ago) link

I told my mom tonight that I'm going to a casual event next week for an organization I applied to work for, so it may be that the event is like a pre-interview for me. She told me not to wear "that short black skirt that makes you look naked."

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Saturday, 11 January 2014 01:32 (ten years ago) link

*wears skirt*

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 11 January 2014 01:34 (ten years ago) link

I love that skirt but I didn't really need her to tell me not to wear it to an envelope-stuffing party in a case where that is not a euphemism for anything.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Saturday, 11 January 2014 01:39 (ten years ago) link

ugh moms policing our outfits/bodies into our adulthood

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Saturday, 11 January 2014 03:48 (ten years ago) link

how do mums rule & suck so much at the same time idk

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 11 January 2014 04:20 (ten years ago) link

IO from where i sit it seems like your mom is suuuuuuuper envious of you.

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Saturday, 11 January 2014 04:55 (ten years ago) link

oh snap

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 11 January 2014 04:56 (ten years ago) link

Well?

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Saturday, 11 January 2014 04:57 (ten years ago) link

I think that's probably very astute.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Saturday, 11 January 2014 12:53 (ten years ago) link

speaking of moms, just got off the phone with my mom and she told me that she heard my voice inside her head this morning when she was looking at a big pile of women's mags she had been stacking in the bathroom (a longstanding habit) and decided to throw them all away and not buy/subscribe to any more. she said they were "garbage". ha!

yes! i am so happy about this for so many reasons!

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Sunday, 12 January 2014 20:59 (ten years ago) link

Aw that has made me pleased :)

kinder, Sunday, 12 January 2014 21:01 (ten years ago) link

awesome!

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 12 January 2014 21:04 (ten years ago) link

https://mobile.twitter.com/DrJanaFunke/status/426712817920913408/photo/1#tweet_426712817920913408

^^^^hope this link works bcz this is the best female orgasm ever

I'd rather be the swallow than a dick (Branwell Bell), Sunday, 26 January 2014 18:58 (ten years ago) link

Woooooow.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Sunday, 26 January 2014 19:00 (ten years ago) link

Who is TINA?!

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Sunday, 26 January 2014 19:03 (ten years ago) link

I don't know but she's electric!

I'd rather be the swallow than a dick (Branwell Bell), Sunday, 26 January 2014 19:05 (ten years ago) link

awesome

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 26 January 2014 19:13 (ten years ago) link

On one hand it's sort of trippy and awesome but on the other, weird and inhuman and dangerous and off-putting...the all-seeing eyeball, really? I can't make out all the type but I did see something about only 30% of women having orgasms during "marital roles" lol.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Sunday, 26 January 2014 19:17 (ten years ago) link

i like the eyeball

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Sunday, 26 January 2014 19:22 (ten years ago) link

eyeball reminds me of odilon redon, i love it

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 26 January 2014 19:35 (ten years ago) link

eyeball makes me think more of that inner full-on consciousness that I feel with an orgasm
but ymmv obv, interpretations subjective etc

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 26 January 2014 19:38 (ten years ago) link

Kinda Odilon meets The Residents. The best kind of surreal.

I'd rather be the swallow than a dick (Branwell Bell), Sunday, 26 January 2014 19:39 (ten years ago) link

yeah!

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 26 January 2014 19:52 (ten years ago) link

love the pic
the caption is kind of great too
"keep going you are about to give me an all consuming nervous explosion which permeates the entire being both physically and mentally"

"Tina" + zaps makes me think
http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120317224227/lyricwiki/images/1/1a/Teena_Marie_-_Starchild.jpg

even the beatles had a coinstar machine in their living room (Crabbits), Sunday, 26 January 2014 19:56 (ten years ago) link

Whatup in grilz thread news for me: My therapist was like 'lol are you serious' when I told her nothing gets my goat more than when my boyfriend says during an argument that I am 'being irrational,' because it's not only untrue but also sexist. I was like 'don't you know the history behind men being rational and women being emotional and blah blah blah' and she was like, 'ok...everyone has their thing.'

I had kind of a stress mental breakdown a few months ago and he sometimes calls it 'the period of time where you were really irrational' and I ask him not to say that.

feelings!!!

even the beatles had a coinstar machine in their living room (Crabbits), Sunday, 26 January 2014 20:03 (ten years ago) link

Trying to figure out if I even like this therapist, if she's even helpful, or if she's just a person I can feel guiltless complaining to about work and my failed marriage of quite a while ago

even the beatles had a coinstar machine in their living room (Crabbits), Sunday, 26 January 2014 20:06 (ten years ago) link

that said it was like a funny moment between us, or maybe a real moment, because it was the first time anything I said provoked a reaction other than pity-empathy

even the beatles had a coinstar machine in their living room (Crabbits), Sunday, 26 January 2014 20:06 (ten years ago) link

I would not continue to see that therapist but ~ 60% of my issues stem from shit like men calling me irrational for having feelings they find disagreeable or inconvenient so ymmv.

carl agatha, Sunday, 26 January 2014 20:18 (ten years ago) link

I think those real-person moments that the human being pops out from behind the therapist empathy mask are actually the ones that I end up basing my "is this therapist gonna work?" feeling on.

That said, it would irritate the shit out of me if I'd specifically asked my partner not to use a word/trope that bothered me, and they carried on using it, regardless of what the word was, but moreso if it was that one.

I'd rather be the swallow than a dick (Branwell Bell), Sunday, 26 January 2014 20:18 (ten years ago) link

personally i'm not paying a therapist to judge what pisses me off, that would make me even more irate, quite rationally so

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 26 January 2014 20:26 (ten years ago) link

i feel like carl does, that i would not want to see that therapist anymore. it's possible i value ideological commitments too highly in a therapist, but i am honestly a little confused by a woman who does not understand irritation at being called irrational by men. does she hail from some other, better planet? what happened?

horseshoe, Sunday, 26 January 2014 20:30 (ten years ago) link

ok, it was starting to make me feel...."irrational"! I think I am going to ask around for different names of therapist.

even the beatles had a coinstar machine in their living room (Crabbits), Sunday, 26 January 2014 20:31 (ten years ago) link

What is even a good way to do that other than luck of the draw??
Open up a phone call with 'do you think it is sexist to call women 'hysterical'? well, what about 'irrational'?'

even the beatles had a coinstar machine in their living room (Crabbits), Sunday, 26 January 2014 20:33 (ten years ago) link

haha we should draft an "are you feminist enough" therapist questionnaire

horseshoe, Sunday, 26 January 2014 20:35 (ten years ago) link

i think both of those are good ideas!

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Sunday, 26 January 2014 20:37 (ten years ago) link

when i lived in Buffalo i started therapy and just happened to start seeing a therapist who specialized in treating young women who were rape and incest survivors. that wasn't the reason for my therapy, and i think i was older than the majority of her clients, but she was the best. i don't know that the word "feminist" was ever uttered in any of our sessions, but she tended to approach the world in a way i recognized/vibed to.

horseshoe, Sunday, 26 January 2014 20:42 (ten years ago) link

I literally googled "feminist" and "therapist" and "London" and came up aces.

I'd rather be the swallow than a dick (Branwell Bell), Sunday, 26 January 2014 20:51 (ten years ago) link

I am having a really hard time finding a new therapist and it sucks.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Sunday, 26 January 2014 23:31 (ten years ago) link

haha we should draft an "are you feminist enough" therapist questionnaire

― horseshoe, Sunday, January 26, 2014 8:35 PM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Not even kidding, that would be a really worthwhile project and a great resource.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Sunday, 26 January 2014 23:44 (ten years ago) link

I literally googled "feminist" and "therapist" and "London" and came up aces.

Did that in Chicago, too!

carl agatha, Monday, 27 January 2014 01:58 (ten years ago) link

just posting real quick to say all the women of ilx are megababes. that's all. mwah.

homosexual II, Thursday, 30 January 2014 17:05 (ten years ago) link

<3<3<3

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Friday, 31 January 2014 00:14 (ten years ago) link

Inspired by roxys latest FB pic!

homosexual II, Friday, 31 January 2014 01:40 (ten years ago) link

It's so fierce and good.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Friday, 31 January 2014 01:48 (ten years ago) link

ya that photo is everything

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 31 January 2014 03:11 (ten years ago) link

omg hahaha WHAT? best surprise when opening this thread, ty yall

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Friday, 31 January 2014 04:31 (ten years ago) link

the one with the guinea pigs?

^ enlightening post (sarahell), Friday, 31 January 2014 04:52 (ten years ago) link

I think she's my faves new youtubes person

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lET-WXTsSwc

even the beatles had a coinstar machine in their living room (Crabbits), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 02:12 (ten years ago) link

x-post - awesome

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 02:16 (ten years ago) link

that beauty trends one made me lol.

if you must continue to wear makeup, remember to wear a blanket over your head. that way you can avoid seeing any men.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 12 February 2014 04:27 (ten years ago) link

bryce, if you are still reading this thread, you would like that video.

sarahell, Wednesday, 12 February 2014 04:28 (ten years ago) link

three weeks pass...

happy International Women's Day

lord of the files (Crabbits), Saturday, 8 March 2014 17:24 (ten years ago) link

<3

claim you hate me; read my twitter account ~religiously~ (Branwell Bell), Saturday, 8 March 2014 17:26 (ten years ago) link

happy women's day! all my international coworkers wished me a happy women's day before we left yesterday.

also i meant to tell this thread that yesterday my doc told me i am experiencing ~mittelschmerz~ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittelschmerz)

we slowly invented brains (La Lechera), Saturday, 8 March 2014 17:39 (ten years ago) link

Shitty! But at least it has a terrific name?

lord of the files (Crabbits), Saturday, 8 March 2014 17:41 (ten years ago) link

that was my reaction! i texted my mom because i always used to complain about weltschmerz when i was a complainy teen (after i learned what it meant) also i thought i had a cyst or appendicitis or something but it turns out i just have very sensitive ovaries. lol?!

we slowly invented brains (La Lechera), Saturday, 8 March 2014 17:43 (ten years ago) link

Yeah, I'm sorry, that sounds really shitty and painful, but on the other hand, what a great name!

claim you hate me; read my twitter account ~religiously~ (Branwell Bell), Saturday, 8 March 2014 17:44 (ten years ago) link

it's not that shitty or really that painful! i'm just glad it wasn't anything major. it made me feel like i'm just overly aware of what's going on, and it's just like yoni power hour, comparatively speaking.

we slowly invented brains (La Lechera), Saturday, 8 March 2014 17:48 (ten years ago) link

"yoni power hour" is a choice phrase
mittelschmerz makes your ovaries sound so existential

lord of the files (Crabbits), Saturday, 8 March 2014 20:42 (ten years ago) link

mitteleuropa

sent from my butt (harbl), Saturday, 8 March 2014 22:48 (ten years ago) link

two weeks pass...

tobi vail interviews meredith graves, good interview! liked this q/a in particular

It’s always weird. It’s not something I ever really get used to, sort of putting yourself out there [as a feminist], and then watching it get filtered through the [male-dominated] media. It’s completely bizarre. And I think you’re right — it does have to do with society’s ideas about women’s roles — how you are reflected can become very mutated according to sexist bias [in the media].

It’s true, and I would like to think I can just go off and swear and curse misogyny and do all the things I want to do, but I’d also like to be a little better spoken. If you get a microphone for five minutes of your entire life, you should do something productive with it, and me sitting there going, “fuck all men, fuck this, fuck that, misandry tra-la-la,” because I get riled up when I get asked leading questions… I feel like I just need to be in a little better control of myself.

we slowly invented brains (La Lechera), Sunday, 23 March 2014 16:24 (ten years ago) link

I don't know who either person is but great interview!

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Sunday, 23 March 2014 16:56 (ten years ago) link

Dear Meredith, please come post on my image bands thread:

I was re-reading Roland Barthes yesterday, who is one of my favorite authors. I was revisiting his theories on dress. I’ve been lambasted recently because I wrote a piece for ELLE magazine. I did it because I thought it sounded fun. Apparently, that’s not very punk. To which I say, “Fuck it, Roland Barthes wrote for ELLE magazine.” He wrote an early semiotics study differentiating between langue and parole — which is the difference between language as an entity, or that exists independently of people, or “langue,” and “parole,” which is the way in which it is executed by the individual. The way Barthes applies this to fashion is that there is dress — which is all the clothes in the world and everything we can do with them — and dressing, which is for the individual. To me, fashion and style can be separated in the same way. Fashion is dress and style is dressing. There’s sort of a lexicographical difference there. According to Barthes, dress is what needs to be studied, and dressing is less important, because that comes down to the individual and it can’t really be studied unless it’s done on a case-by-case basis.

Fingerbang! goes another year, in and out of one ear (Branwell Bell), Sunday, 23 March 2014 16:59 (ten years ago) link

(I have a feeling I would absolutely haaaaaate Perfect Pussy's music because, y'know, fuck hardcore punk, fuck Upstate NY, fuck the load of it, but she does seem to give good interview at the moment.)

Fingerbang! goes another year, in and out of one ear (Branwell Bell), Sunday, 23 March 2014 17:00 (ten years ago) link

okay i have a serious question:

i'm a member of a co-op that runs a noise clubhouse that does shows, and one of the members just booked a show where one of the musicians is a dude that a friend of mine had said date raped her (this was in the past year). And it feels icky. For all my years of booking and putting on shows, I haven't been in this situation before. I've booked dudes that were run-of-the-mill creepy or sexually aggressive when drunk, but nothing as serious as this.

what the fuck should I do? (if anything)

sarahell, Thursday, 3 April 2014 17:27 (ten years ago) link

Are you likely to get any support from the other members of the co-op if you bring up that this guy is an un-safe person to have around? Not that that should stop you bringing it up, but it's good to know in advance if you can expect any backup. If you know there are people who would give you backup, raise it with them first, and then bring your concerns together to the whole group. (Rapists are not safe people to have in any space that includes women. I do not think it's undue or unfair to raise this issue.)

Branwell Bell, Thursday, 3 April 2014 17:35 (ten years ago) link

the co-op is 3 women and 5 men

sarahell, Thursday, 3 April 2014 17:36 (ten years ago) link

Raise it with the other women, and discuss, and bring your perfectly legitimate concerns to the group together. Strength in numbers and a united front.

Branwell Bell, Thursday, 3 April 2014 17:37 (ten years ago) link

I also feel like I should talk to my friend about it first. But I feel weird contacting her and saying, "hey, how's it going? guess what? that dude who raped you is booked on a show at (name of space i run)."

sarahell, Thursday, 3 April 2014 17:39 (ten years ago) link

I don't think you need to name the person, when you are saying "Person raped someone I know" - at least, that's not how it works in a court of law. But I can understand why you'd want to ask, first, does she feel comfortable being involved with this. But I would not have this guy play at your space.

Branwell Bell, Thursday, 3 April 2014 17:42 (ten years ago) link

I think you know what you need to do. Do you expect strong resistance to naming this issue and discussing a response from your co-op?

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Thursday, 3 April 2014 17:44 (ten years ago) link

For me, the most compelling framing is a "health of the community" issue. (Well actually the most compelling framing is a 'THIS PERSON SHOULD NOT HAVE TO WATCH US APPLAUD HER RAPIST' one but I recognize that it opens both parties up to personal judgments.) But when someone has a serious allegation made against them and is still accepted by a community without an analysis of that, it starts to become definitional to that community that they didn't find it important enough to investigate or analyze.

Pretending that "oh we're not political" or w/e is a lie--that pretense itself is political. Taking no action is a vote for the status quo, ie patriarchy. Blah blah obviously.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Thursday, 3 April 2014 17:50 (ten years ago) link

okay i have a serious question:

i'm a member of a co-op that runs a noise clubhouse that does shows, and one of the members just booked a show where one of the musicians is a dude that a friend of mine had said date raped her (this was in the past year). And it feels icky. For all my years of booking and putting on shows, I haven't been in this situation before. I've booked dudes that were run-of-the-mill creepy or sexually aggressive when drunk, but nothing as serious as this.

what the fuck should I do? (if anything)

― sarahell, Thursday, April 3, 2014 1:27 PM (36 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

we have this exact situation going on at our space at this moment FYI

dude is currently banned but we havent told him so or the reason - im working on how to approach that, how to go about informing others - right now just consistently denying his requests to play

i was THIS close to recording him (in my house alone with him!) when this news came out

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 3 April 2014 18:06 (ten years ago) link

Ugh, so awkward to address. Well...there's a couple of conversations to have. One of them is about holding people accountable for sexual violence, and the other is about love/compassion/fellow-feeling (however you feel least hokey phrasing it) among community members and the need to be supportive of them. (Unless the guy is creepy and terrible and not central to the community in which case you don't have to foreground him as much imo.)

So it doesn't have to be like, You are hated and banned, it can be more, We'd like to support your request to play shows but we have a more compelling need to support our community by taking sexual violence seriously. Let's talk about how to navigate this. And then see what he says and how he reacts, which probably will tell you everything you need to know tbqh.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Thursday, 3 April 2014 18:24 (ten years ago) link

Not that you asked me! And roxy, I know you're a pro at managing yr space and community. But this is how I would feel most secure framing it and it keeps me focused on the largest goal which is maintaining a safe and secure community where growth can happen and not being derailed by my anger or desire to fix on an accusation.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Thursday, 3 April 2014 18:26 (ten years ago) link

i welcome all advice on this believe me!

he is a much loved member of the community, and a very young dude. i feel like - if we really believe that consent is something that has to be taught/learned - if he addresses this, has had counseling, obv he cant "make amends," but if he's worked on himself and learned, then i can make some space for him. my focus right now is on the woman tho, who is widely being called crazy and a liar by people who really should (and, it seems, do??) know better. im not putting dude on a stage while that is going on

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 3 April 2014 18:30 (ten years ago) link

I think that's a responsible and conscious choice, but like you already know, you're going to have to tell him why. Not least because direct lessons are more effective. If you behave cruelly toward others, you don't have the same access to group approval and resources--true fact, son.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Thursday, 3 April 2014 18:35 (ten years ago) link

cruelly/unjustly/destructive of the full humanity of others, whatever.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Thursday, 3 April 2014 18:36 (ten years ago) link

yeah, i know. im so stressed about that inevitable convo

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 3 April 2014 18:36 (ten years ago) link

OMF-ingG yes. When that kind of shit is going on (the victim being called "crazy" and "a liar" (ain't I been there)) then your A-number-1 priority is supporting her and showing that no, that kind of thing is not acceptable. She has the right to be taken seriously, believed, and have this guy be held accountable. Your first priority is keeping the people in your community safe. Female people are not safe with this dude around.

sorry x-posts

Branwell Bell, Thursday, 3 April 2014 18:39 (ten years ago) link

preach. im so disappointed in my community right now

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 3 April 2014 18:57 (ten years ago) link

sarahell, Branwell Bell's advice is very good about how to approach this. I don't have anything better to add but I want to say, sarah and roxy, thank you for making this a consideration.

carl agatha, Thursday, 3 April 2014 19:10 (ten years ago) link

it's pretty awesome to finally have female voices in positions of power in these types of music communities, so I'd like to think of your position as uncomfortable, but powerful. if people want the approval of the community, they have to behave by community standards, which you're setting by saying "we aren't going to clap for rapists".

i agree with whoever said there's power in numbers.

we slowly invented brains (La Lechera), Thursday, 3 April 2014 19:19 (ten years ago) link

it's a challenge in a very dude-dominated scene, even if most of them are tbh pretty nerdy dudes.

because there often ends up being a feeling among women in the scene that they need to compete with the dudes and emulate the dude-ishness which can lead to something like this being seen as "overreacting" - like it wasn't really rape if the couple were casually dating

sarahell, Thursday, 3 April 2014 19:21 (ten years ago) link

that's what i mean -- this seems like a precedent-setting moment (not to put more pressure on you). i've rarely been put into leadership positions before my current job, but now that i know what it feels like it has given me a quiet badass aura that i kind of like. it's ok to be scared, but ultimately you gotta stand up for what you think is right even if it means people think you're a choad.

we slowly invented brains (La Lechera), Thursday, 3 April 2014 19:27 (ten years ago) link

the tricky thing for me is that it is something that happened to a friend, as opposed to something that happened to me, personally. i don't want to do or say anything that will hurt her or make her feel uncomfortable.

sarahell, Thursday, 3 April 2014 19:29 (ten years ago) link

i'd definitely talk with her about it before taking any action with the group
if i were her, i'd want to be consulted first

that's just me though

we slowly invented brains (La Lechera), Thursday, 3 April 2014 19:29 (ten years ago) link

I feel like I've told this story before but I experienced a similar situation and it was ugly and did not end well. Or maybe it ended really well in that I eventually cut ties with that particular group of people.

carl agatha, Thursday, 3 April 2014 20:09 (ten years ago) link

my sitch is a little different because i know the dude, but not the woman! many of my friends know her, and i've seen her, but never met her. should i reach out to her before talking to him?

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 3 April 2014 20:40 (ten years ago) link

also the dude in question was arrested for this crime, taken to court, then acquitted. he has a public mugshot. the woman has lost friends, is being called crazy or worse. why are people so willing to think that someone would do this to themselves if they had nothing at stake? because they are afraid to acknowledge that someone they like as a person or an artist could commit a rape.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 3 April 2014 20:42 (ten years ago) link

who do they think is raping and harassing the women that we know, if not the men that we know?

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 3 April 2014 20:43 (ten years ago) link

The thing is, I have so little faith in the Justice System, when it comes to sexual assault, that I think the only recourse we have is social retribution. It's one of those occasions where the acquittal of a court means absolutely nothing. One system has already failed this woman, the only other answer is to stand up and say "well, I believe you." Or, maybe in this case, reach out and say "would you like to tell your story to me? I will *not* disbelieve you."

The thing that always impresses itself upon me, from discussions of Predator Theory (I think they may have happened upthread) is that, from studies of men who rape, men who rape *almost never* just do it once, go "oops, well, that was a mistake" and never do it again. If they learn that they can get away with it, they do it again and again. It feels impossible at this point to ever get them to face legal consequences. But "you will lose friends, you will lose shows, you will lose your reputation over this" is the best we have. (Because fuck knows, this already happens to the victims.)

Branwell Bell, Thursday, 3 April 2014 20:59 (ten years ago) link

roxy and sarahell, i'm so glad you're in a position of power in these spaces!

horseshoe, Thursday, 3 April 2014 21:14 (ten years ago) link

I am going to go ahead and tell this story because it's about group dynamics and rape so forgive me if I have told this before (I'm old and repeating myself) and also TRIGGER WARNING.

I ran with a group of tightly knit pals during my college and college-adjacent years, including a woman I'll call A and a man I'll call B. B went to visit A where she lived in another state and raped her. A pressed charges and B was convicted and actually served jail time (Branwell Bell your feelings re: the justice system are well founded and the fact that this dude served time is astounding). Aside from a small subgroup of women, the pals rallied around B and collectively decided that A was a slut who cried rape rather than admit that she had cheated on her boyfriend.

To my eternal shame, I chose to be "neutral" (and, as io said, remaining neutral is taking a position), torn between wanting to believe and support A and not wanting to believe that B was a rapist. I've thought about it A LOT and the thing is, admitting B is a rapist meant admitting that many of my friends were not safe to be around, and admitting the truth about how the men in that group viewed the women. And the answer was very uncomfortable. I mean, we had open jokes about how certain of our friends were relentlessly grope-y when drunk, and how annoying it was when some of these guys would crawl into bed with us and hassle us for sex, or creep on us at parties, and on and on. These guys were supposed to be my friends, they were supposed to care about me, but treated my consent to sex as a foregone conclusion and... Ugh. Gross.

So anyway, as I have spoken about before I eventually disconnected from these people, as did A. B served his time and moved to the city where A lived, which I'm sure was really fucking wonderful for her, and is married now. I don't know what A is doing these days. Two or three years ago they had an impromptu reunion, and seeing all these pictures on Facebook of everybody smiling with their arms around this dude who raped one of their friends made me ill.

carl agatha, Thursday, 3 April 2014 21:21 (ten years ago) link

They = this group of friends. A was not there, for obvious reasons.

carl agatha, Thursday, 3 April 2014 21:23 (ten years ago) link

Ugh, I don't even know how I would handle something like that, but the fact that people like B can get convicted brings me some tiny sense of justice. But at the same time, your friends were gross & there is a reason why they are ex-friends. It's just giving such a clear message about whose safety they value & whose words they believe and it will never be yours.

Branwell Bell, Thursday, 3 April 2014 21:26 (ten years ago) link

Yeah. I think about A a lot and hope she has much better friends in her life now.

carl agatha, Thursday, 3 April 2014 21:30 (ten years ago) link

Those 3 little words "I believe you" are one of the most powerful gifts we can give a survivor.

Branwell Bell, Thursday, 3 April 2014 21:33 (ten years ago) link

<3 yes

im so thankful for yall, people i can discuss this with

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Friday, 4 April 2014 02:38 (ten years ago) link

reluctant to butt in because this is an important topic but apparently I have PCOS and the Dr was surprised I didn't already know because I was tested for it 4 years ago and was told my results were "inconclusive" but apparently they were "conclusive enough"?

I mean this doesn't really change anything because she further shrugged and said there wasn't much I could do about it except try losing weight and I had already noticed that I should lose weight thanksverymuch, so

anyway

roxy and sarahell, i'm so glad you're in a position of power in these spaces!

yes!

the ghosts of dead pom-bears (a passing spacecadet), Friday, 4 April 2014 16:01 (ten years ago) link

!!!! bloody hell, sometimes the NHS seems to try to look like an argument against 'socialized medicine'.

ljubljana, Friday, 4 April 2014 16:17 (ten years ago) link

i dont know much about PCOS, i hope it doesnt cause you much trouble!

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Friday, 4 April 2014 16:24 (ten years ago) link

I <3 the NHS but there are def areas where the system doesn't work quite so well and when I see USians talking about going to see their obgyn for a routine checkup I do sometimes think "oh, if I had one of those I could ask them about ___"

roxy, nor do I tbh! I'd already noticed I had most of the major-bullet-point symptoms but not really read up on it. I'll be doing some of that now. For me atm the symptoms are mostly in the "variety of minor annoyances" category, but it does feel like I'm at war with ~hormones~ in that both my own natural ones and artificial ones seem to have different side effects and it's a matter of deciding which set I'd rather deal with and waiting for some new ones to turn up.

the ghosts of dead pom-bears (a passing spacecadet), Friday, 4 April 2014 16:37 (ten years ago) link

Doesn't PCOS cause weight gain? Telling you to lose weight seems ridiculous.

carl agatha, Friday, 4 April 2014 16:48 (ten years ago) link

It (often) does but it is also exacerbated by weight gain or something? Which is a fun little spiral.

(perhaps if I bothered to read the factsheet the Dr sent me home with I could post something which didn't end with "or something?")

the ghosts of dead pom-bears (a passing spacecadet), Friday, 4 April 2014 17:01 (ten years ago) link

btw I'm already on androgen-regulating birth control which is the main treatment and which I got put on after my inconclusive-or-not test results, so I guess the process worked fine apart from the telling me what was going on part. there is another medication she said we could consider but noted some "unpleasant side effects" so I'm in no real rush to try that, got enough side effects already iirc

the ghosts of dead pom-bears (a passing spacecadet), Friday, 4 April 2014 17:06 (ten years ago) link

i had to google pcos but that sounds like it sucks -- i'm sorry

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Friday, 4 April 2014 17:23 (ten years ago) link

Oh, Spacecadet, I am sorry. This sounds like a terrible thing to be going through.

(And though doctors' bad attitudes do not help, I do have to say that there exist also doctors with shitty attitudes towards weight gain and women's health also in America's ~wonderful~ free market medical system. Sorry, I get really twitchy about about my NHS.)

Branwell Bell, Friday, 4 April 2014 17:26 (ten years ago) link

Oh man yeah. Go in with strep throat, get told to lose weight, get billed $250.00.

carl agatha, Friday, 4 April 2014 17:44 (ten years ago) link

Yeah, I have heard horror stories from my Mum, who lives in the States, about being told for years about random things, "that's caused by your weight" (basically shut up and lose weight, fatty) only to get a new doctor who says "oh, actually, you can get an operation for that". This awful stuff is everywhere.

Branwell Bell, Friday, 4 April 2014 17:49 (ten years ago) link

Ouch, x2!

My usual GP (who I didn't see today) has been v. good about not mentioning my weight, but the nurse has been known to go on at me a bit. Today's GP suggested I have a weekly checkin with the nurse to discuss food diaries. Not an appealing prospect tbh. Also I just finished a big long course of CBT and would quite like not to have any more conspicuous weekly absences from work...

My mother has Crohn's and for years doctors told her "of course you have stomach pains, you're a woman".

the ghosts of dead pom-bears (a passing spacecadet), Friday, 4 April 2014 17:57 (ten years ago) link

"of course you have stomach pains, you're a woman".

omg (but not surprised)

JuliaA, Friday, 4 April 2014 17:59 (ten years ago) link

good lord

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Friday, 4 April 2014 18:43 (ten years ago) link

oh man have i told the story here of my friend who suffered for years, undiagnosed, with some kind of ovarian/uterine problem (cysts or polyps + other symptoms i think, anyway it was really really bad and painful), then she saw an ENDOCRINOLOGIST, an ACTUAL DOCTOR, who told her basically that it was god's will and there was nothing to do except... pray. and this is in nz, btw, not even the US.

just1n3, Friday, 4 April 2014 20:10 (ten years ago) link

That doctor should lose his (I'm assuming) license to practice.

carl agatha, Friday, 4 April 2014 20:46 (ten years ago) link

xps - yeah I know things are screwed up in different ways in the US and wouldn't for a moment give up the NHS. But the lack of access to specialists in the UK within a reasonable timeframe is a real problem, I think. Investment in the NHS (and sacking some managers) is the way to deal with this...

ljubljana, Friday, 4 April 2014 21:38 (ten years ago) link

Yeah, I recognise that "access to specialists" can be a big problem in the NHS, you have to go through layers of faff, and time, to get to them. But the US alternative, where you can wave a wad of cash and see a specialist immediately, only works on the back of millions of people having no access to medicine at all. Which is not an acceptable alternative, when it comes down to it. Investment in the NHS is critical, but it is currently being starved of funds at the moment, with the specific intention of making it a bit shit, so that they can sell off the profitable bits of it and scrap the rest.

Anyway... sorry. BritRant over.

Branwell Bell, Saturday, 5 April 2014 09:10 (ten years ago) link

I know, I know. (I'm a Brit, btw). And NHS specialists would be possible to achieve without the wad-waving option if it weren't being driven into the ground.

ljubljana, Saturday, 5 April 2014 13:34 (ten years ago) link

NZ is the same - socialized healthcare is great, but prepare to wait months to see a psychiatrist or any other kind of non-GP doctor if you don't have health insurance.

just1n3, Saturday, 5 April 2014 15:33 (ten years ago) link

*'access to NHS specialists...' xp

ljubljana, Saturday, 5 April 2014 15:37 (ten years ago) link

Oh, gurl thread I have asked a question on Style Borad I need your help with, please if there is anyone who is good with clothes & dress codes pls tell me how "me" I can get away with being.

Branwell Bell, Monday, 7 April 2014 14:42 (ten years ago) link

avoid the shirt with BOOB GAP -- i totally had this problem when i wore men's dress shirts and ties, and my way around it was wearing vests

sarahell, Monday, 7 April 2014 18:13 (ten years ago) link

Neither shirt really has BOOB GAP; it's just the black one is specially designed with counter-boob-gap measures in the design (weird internal extra buttons.) Ties generally cover a lot of boob gap anyway.

Branwell Bell, Monday, 7 April 2014 18:34 (ten years ago) link

I have mentioned this elsewhere before, but I will tell you how to fix boob-gap on button-ups: take your shirts to a tailor and have them sew it all the way up. Your shirt is now a pull-over, but you don't have boob-gap.

kate78, Monday, 7 April 2014 20:05 (ten years ago) link

If you have a sewing machine you could do this yourself, too, duh

kate78, Monday, 7 April 2014 20:06 (ten years ago) link

How in the hell do you get a not-stretchy broadcloth shirt on once it's sewn up?? I'd never get my arms in there!

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Monday, 7 April 2014 20:10 (ten years ago) link

Two sided fabric tape is my non permanent boob gap solution of choice

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Monday, 7 April 2014 20:15 (ten years ago) link

Indeed! Any shirt fitted enough to generate boob gap is never going to go over my head to get it on!

I am a fan of the M&S boob-gap-no-more shirt, I just wish it didn't flare out 2 inches above my hips, so I could tuck it in.

Branwell Bell, Monday, 7 April 2014 20:17 (ten years ago) link

I love having female friends!!! It's an essential part of living well! I have some wonderful friends but none live in town. In the three years I have lived here, I have made two good friends. One acts like she can't ever leave her house to hang out because she has a toddler, but it's actually because she drinks +/- a fifth of booze a day and doesn't want a DUI. And if I go over, I'm on child-chasing duties. Plus I always do really impulsive, dumb stuff around her. We turn into the nest to last scene of Boogie Nights every time her kid is not around. So she's fun to hang out with but strictly a "once in a while" person.

The other has put me on freeze out. Or if she hasn't, it sure seems like it. It makes me so mad. No one gets to freeze me out! It started last summer when she'd flaked on all our hangouts, but she called me up one weekend after I decided, 'I give up, having her as a friend and always cancelling on everything is too much of an emotional rollercoaster.' I had thought I was on freeze out even back THEN. She said, "I need you to do me a favor. My friends are making a film for a class and one of their extras ditched without warning. So I was hoping you could do me a favor and play the role of a friend." "You want me to 'play the role of a friend'?" I repeated, because it was too fucked up and meta!

No matter how far in advance I make arrangements, she flakes out. But I'm always there when she needs a favor! But never on all the fun checkins on facebook, never invited along to those. So, fuck it! It's over!

I am seriously going through some five stages of grief about this. I am in ANGER right now. ANGER. I am also very calculatingly cultivating new friends. Ha!

lord of the files (Crabbits), Friday, 11 April 2014 14:00 (ten years ago) link

I have a one-hour POWER HANGOUT scheduled tonight with a DIFFERENT female friend and we are planning Halloween costumes together. OH YEAH. I AM SO GOING TO GIVE HER A MANICURE TONIGHT.

lord of the files (Crabbits), Friday, 11 April 2014 14:02 (ten years ago) link

<3 <3 <3 <3 <3

I love your anger about this, that might not be my response in that situation, and yours is way healthier.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 11 April 2014 14:13 (ten years ago) link

It sucks to feel like the back-up friend for someone. It sucks to feel like you are the one making all the effort and all the overtures. It sucks to feel like someone is freezing you out or just moving away from you emotionally. It's like that thing where, if you stop making the effort, does the other person move towards you and pick up the slack? If they do, congratulations, you are friends. If not... ???

I dunno. I feel like someone could really make a site which is like OKCupid, but for "finding your new BFF" and matches female friends with appropriate levels of time and commitment and childcare needs, to find someone who can be the friend that each other needs.

(I am probably the worst friend in the world, because I do cancel plans (not all the time though!) but usually when I do cancel plans, it's because it is genuinely a situation I cannot handle at that point, and I think it would be worse for the other person to have to deal with someone who was a neurotic mess, than cancel and me just spend the day in bed with pillow over head.)

I hope your power hangout manicure goes well!

Branwell Bell, Friday, 11 April 2014 14:14 (ten years ago) link

i have so many things to say about this that i don't know where to begin, but typing is an insufficient substitute for irl hangouts with close female friends
it's a huge monster bummer

here's to your power hour, crabbits

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Friday, 11 April 2014 14:19 (ten years ago) link

God yes. I feel like I'm less of a person, more numb, because I'm so far away from my best female friends. I have one very good female friend here now who is a fellow student and she's wonderful, but having history with someone, knowing they know your history and you know theirs, means a lot to me.

ljubljana, Friday, 11 April 2014 15:07 (ten years ago) link

Yeah none of my closest female friends live close and it makes me very sad. I made a new one this year who is awesome but I don't get to see her that often. Also, I think my best friend is trying to phase me out and it's been seriously upsetting me for months. *sigh* Hope the power hour is awesome, Abbs.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Friday, 11 April 2014 15:48 (ten years ago) link

Crabbits I feel you so much on this. and I hope you manicure the shit out of yr diff female friend's nails!!!

I had a great crew of female friends back in Oz...like 2 or 3 diff circles of friends I could hang with. Moving here, after 10 years I acquired a total of 3, 1 of which is still actually a friend and the other 2 have gone by the wayside. One is a gigantic flake and doesn't even reply to emails anymore so technically not a friend since we haven't actually hung out in like a year. The other one started giving me weird vibes like I had a feeling she was kinda manic and maybe needed medication and then she tried to kill herself and went into rehab for alcohol and has become super KEEP IT POSTIVE, and I just had to quietly bow out of all the drama. The one friend I retained is also a flake but I've gotten to a point with her that I don't plan things too far in advance with her. Like I text her on Friday to have brunch on Sunday am. Or text her and say hey what are you doing do want to meet for coffee this afternoon. that works better. But she's gone back to school part time and doesnt' work and now pretty much all she talks about is omg I have to study for this exam and I have assignments to do and I'm mentally yelling YOU HAVE ONE CLASS FFS

so yeah my female friends sitch is not entirely awesome.

My problem is also compounded by my own feelings of inadequacy ie these ppl prob won't want to hang out anyway so I shouldn't be needy and bugging them about catching up all the time. Like I have never been able to shake the feeling that these people who I *know* actually like me, maybe secretly hate me. I have lots of acquaintances at work who are cool but I couldn't ever bring myself to ask them to hang out why bcz rejection hi I am a 13 yo girl

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 11 April 2014 16:07 (ten years ago) link

I feel for everybody, I wish you all had sister circles right nearby and within reach when you needed their support/to reinforce the conviction that we're doing this thing together.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 11 April 2014 16:13 (ten years ago) link

It's that "shared history" thing which accumulates so slowly you don't really notice it happening, but when it is missing, is impossible to really replicate.

I have tried to retype this post three different times now, but can't say it without sounding like a brat. I want my friends to stop moving away, because I'm really sick of having to start this process from scratch again. I suppose this is payback for me spending the first half of my life... moving away.

Branwell Bell, Friday, 11 April 2014 16:36 (ten years ago) link

my best female friend lives pretty much as far away from me as it's possible to without falling off this island :(
Incidentally, BFF's other BFF is soon to be my sis-in-law (we get on very well, so that's cool). Most of my other friends are couples where I like them both. I feel old and boring and tired all the time so don't really make the effort with anyone else.

kinder, Friday, 11 April 2014 16:36 (ten years ago) link

I want my friends to stop moving away, because I'm really sick of having to start this process from scratch again.

This is not bratty! This is recognizing what you need for your well-being, and that is "community." Even if it's a community of only two or three.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 11 April 2014 16:42 (ten years ago) link

“When you wake up and find yourself living someplace where there is nobody you love and trust, no community, it is time to leave town – to pack up and go (you can even go tonight). And where you need to go is any place where there are arms that can hold you, that will not let you go.”
― Bell Hooks, Sisters of the Yam: Black Women and Self-Recovery

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 11 April 2014 16:47 (ten years ago) link

That assumes that there is somewhere that you can go *to* to expect those things.

Branwell Bell, Friday, 11 April 2014 16:49 (ten years ago) link

Yeah, that's true.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 11 April 2014 16:56 (ten years ago) link

it's not community that i miss at all really -- it's having someone to tell secrets to, who knows my other secrets and gets why they're secret
personal life stuff that accumulates
starting that from scratch so many times already, i think i've run low on energy to keep doing it
but my old friends are far away and this just kinda seems like that time in life when people move toward family instead of friends and that sucks when you are a friend, not a family

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Friday, 11 April 2014 17:03 (ten years ago) link

fortunately, i'm finding it easier to be casual friends than i ever did before
that's good

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Friday, 11 April 2014 17:05 (ten years ago) link

it's not community that i miss at all really -- it's having someone to tell secrets to, who knows my other secrets and gets why they're secret
personal life stuff that accumulates

Imo this is what community is, it's just, like I said, a community of two. Building trust over time, pooling your (emotional) resources. But whatever anyone calls it, I'm happy for everyone who can get it for themselves.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 11 April 2014 17:08 (ten years ago) link

vocabulary differences! also, agree.

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Friday, 11 April 2014 17:09 (ten years ago) link

I feel like I have so much of whatever that is in my life, I wish I could share it around to everyone regardless of geographic ineligibility.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 11 April 2014 17:11 (ten years ago) link

Yes, part of it is sharing secrets, and knowing why they're secrets. But other parts of it is remembering dumb stuff that no one else would bother to remember, but you remember it because it's some part of your shared memories. I had one of my closest friends come back to visit London on a flying visit, and we were gutted that the restaurant we always went to had closed down - I didn't even know because I never go to that restaurant with anyone except her - and I got the same drink I used to get at the old place, and when it came she made a comment about how it wasn't the same when it wasn't served in the same distinctive glass, and we both laughed because she always used to tease me that I got it specifically because of the glass, and not coz I liked the drink. And it's that thing, where she doesn't just remember my favourite drink, but remembers the specific goofy glass that I like to drink it out of. No one else in the world would care about a dumb detail like that, but the fact that it's a dumb detail that we share makes it really special to me, that she remembers.

But I suppose stuff like that is just symbolic of the other things you remember about one another. That both of us remember every single person the other person has been in love with during the past 7 years, complete with obnoxious nicknames for the ones we didn't like, and cute nicknames for the ones we did. And I remember her particular ongoing family drama, and she remembers my endless problems with mine. Like, the other week, I had to explain to a ~new person~ about why I am estranged from my brother, and I just didn't want to explain in any detail ever again, but with my old, old friends, all I have to do is mention "OMG, my brother" and there is this decade-long history where they roll their eyes and go "OMG what has he done now" and it's the stuff you don't *have* to explain or justify, they just already know. That is the stuff that is so important. And if that's symbolised by a goofy glass, it's not the goofy glass, it's not having to explain why you like it because they just know.

Branwell Bell, Friday, 11 April 2014 17:31 (ten years ago) link

I keep thinking I am going to make a more profound post than I end up making. And then I don't. I don't think I have profound in me right now.

Branwell Bell, Friday, 11 April 2014 17:32 (ten years ago) link

No, I think that is the profound post you thought you were going to make. :)

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 11 April 2014 17:37 (ten years ago) link

I haven't seen my best friend since 2000. But I bought us matching sneakers the other day!

tokyo rosemary, Friday, 11 April 2014 18:01 (ten years ago) link

My closest female friend in this city (whom I have known since I was 18! We went to university together and she moved here like 8 years ago) is moving back out west in June and I am in serious denial. We've lived within 4 blocks of each other this whole time. I'm hoping she finds it boring and moves back after 6-12 months.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Friday, 11 April 2014 18:06 (ten years ago) link

I am going to put in actual effort to make friends with new-baby moms (but only the cool ones ;) ). Babies are good icebreakers, I figure.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Friday, 11 April 2014 18:09 (ten years ago) link

not to change the topic but this made me lol
TTB
http://www.avclub.com/article/coughing-radiant-and-disposible-return-consumptive-202880

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Friday, 11 April 2014 18:10 (ten years ago) link

I've been in the US five years and have made approximately two friends, like actual good friends. But I don't feel totally comfortable with either of them.

I can't even get on Skype half the time with any of my BFs bc the time zones are all fucked.

I do get to spend three days with two of my oldest friends in July -it's been ten years since that last happened.

just1n3, Friday, 11 April 2014 18:52 (ten years ago) link

It sucks to feel like you are the one making all the effort and all the overtures. It sucks to feel like someone is freezing you out or just moving away from you emotionally.

I have been construed as this type of friend in the past, but only by people who refuse to understand depression or treat it as a real thing. I've also had friends who complained that I wasn't more available to them while I was literally operating a 24 hour suicide line for 48 hours overnight, and there is some overlap there. Lol. That said, there are people who distance themselves for a while out of chronic illness, legitimate despair and an inability to discuss it, or a combo of factors beyond their control, but will be there for you when needed, and then there are just jerks who don't care about you. Sometimes it takes years to figure out who's who.

I decided a couple of years ago to cease trying with my best friend, and he eventually started sort of reaching out and feeling obviously guilty, but it took way too long, and I know the reason is that he just forgets I exist. A person that I have to beg repeatedly to be my friend can't really be my friend.

I dunno. I feel like someone could really make a site which is like OKCupid, but for "finding your new BFF" and matches female friends with appropriate levels of time and commitment and childcare needs, to find someone who can be the friend that each other needs.

feel like this is a legitimately brilliant idea here. would use!!!

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Friday, 11 April 2014 19:07 (ten years ago) link

i've come to the conclusion today (after talking with my mom and bff on the phone) that i should be happy that my female friends take the time to be my friend at all
i have one super close one, many who are formerly-close but currently occupied
i wish more people were willing to talk on the phone tbh
so tired of typing

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Friday, 11 April 2014 19:10 (ten years ago) link

A person that I have to beg repeatedly to be my friend can't really be my friend.
ugh so otm

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Friday, 11 April 2014 19:10 (ten years ago) link

i am really bad at phone conversations and wish i could express myself better via phone. i don't know what it is, but i feel uncomfortable on the phone

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Friday, 11 April 2014 19:11 (ten years ago) link

they're difficult! you can't see facial expressions or body language, you can't determine turn-taking as easily, etc. i have one particularly hellish memory of a phone conversation that i had in spanish that was the last time i talked with someone and i did not express myself clearly and left things very poorly.

still talking on the phone is something i have always enjoyed because it's usually the best i can get!

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Friday, 11 April 2014 19:14 (ten years ago) link

i will take letters/email over phone calls tbh. i feel like, for me, phone calls are a dim version of what the person is really like, or something. i cant feel like i'm really talking to them or that theyre really talking to me

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Friday, 11 April 2014 19:19 (ten years ago) link

man tbh i will take whatever i can get if someone i like talking with wants to correspond with me

hey btw roxy have you watched mask yet?! (not the mask, just mask)

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Friday, 11 April 2014 19:25 (ten years ago) link

i just actual loled! i forgot about mask!!

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Friday, 11 April 2014 19:27 (ten years ago) link

you gotta watch it!
cher looks so pretty
http://www.cyfraplus.pl/ms_galeria/fotobase/2395_c.jpg

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Friday, 11 April 2014 19:29 (ten years ago) link

When I was younger (like teens, 20s) I used to spend literally hours and hours on the phone, talking to my girlfriends. I don't even know what happened to that ability. Like, seriously, I think I have had one phone call with a friend in the past... 5 years or something. (It was about a month ago, I was very seriously at the end of my tether, and reached out to a friend who had moved, saying "can you just talk about dumb shit for 15 minutes because I think I'm losing it" and we talked about trivial annoyances.) Partly it's mobiles, like I actually find it physically uncomfortable to spend more than 10 minutes on a mobile before my ear gets really hot. Partly it's just fear and social anxiety and come on, who the hell wants to talk to me anyway, I'm a miserable depressing old bastard who just wants to talk about pop stars and council tax and boring philosophers no one reads.

I dunno, I feel like the one who gets phased out, because being around people who are severely depressed is no fun. Being around people with anxiety issues is difficult and tedious if you're not used to it, and very easy to write off as "drama" if you don't understand what's going on. And also probably a healthy dose of "BB is so boring now she's stopped drinking, isn't in a band any more, isn't cool any more, doesn't go clubbing any more" or whatever. The not-getting-drunk this is difficult. It kind of amazes me, the insane, crazy, fucked-up shit I would get up to when I was still drinking, and people would still somehow hang around with me. But now I don't get drunk, I'm just difficult and awkward, and just boring and sober and difficult and awkward is way, way less fun than drunk and dramatic, so... the end.

Sometimes I feel like... my life fell quite seriously apart about 5 or 6 years ago. I have spent the past 2 years trying to stick it back together again. But at the end of being that chaotic for that long, it's really hard both to find normalcy, and also to convince others that you're worth taking a chance on. Maybe I don't feel like I'm worth taking a chance on. Maybe I don't know how to trust anyone I haven't known long enough to have lived through the chaotic times with me and still have stuck around.

I am lucky to have at least 3 people who I have known for so long and so well that nothing I ever do is ever going to phase them ever again. But none of them live in this country. And I can't live in the country where they all live. This peripatetic existence we all live is shitty and not conducive to real relationships.

Man, I am a real "up" person today, am I not? Part of this is just PMT and part of it is still being fucked up in the head over the job thing yesterday. But part of this is just... waaaaahhh. I am lonely. I miss having a close girlfriend close enough by to go out for a coffee and a chat. I guess I feel less alone for knowing that I'm not the only one feeling this way.

Branwell Bell, Friday, 11 April 2014 19:33 (ten years ago) link

(Oh, sorry, conversation moved on while I was typing that. Didn't mean to be so much a downer.)

Branwell Bell, Friday, 11 April 2014 19:34 (ten years ago) link

i'm just posting pictures of cher! it's ok! you're def not alone.

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Friday, 11 April 2014 19:36 (ten years ago) link

can def ID with your first paragraph. i used to spend sooo much time on the phone as a teen, but i didnt feel like i had to perform on the phone back then. long silences were ok

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Friday, 11 April 2014 19:37 (ten years ago) link

Maybe I should post pictures. But I'd just post pictures of Brandon Curtis and Daniel Kessler and no one wants that. Ha!

I think that the long-times-on-the-phone thing were mostly about not ever having your own space while being a teen. Now I have a whole damn flat of mine own, I guess being on the phone to get space isn't so important? I dunno.

Branwell Bell, Friday, 11 April 2014 19:39 (ten years ago) link

and let us let this thread be as much of a coffee and chat w/ a girlfriend as it can be. i need one of those, too.

xp oh that's true, i hadn't thought of it that way. it seemed like such an affront when mom would pick up the other line and start telling me to get off the phone. like, get out of my space!!!

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Friday, 11 April 2014 19:40 (ten years ago) link

(I only got online again to post the last chapter of the last book of the Deep Field trilogy, how did I get sucked into the gurl thread, you ladies and the conversations here are far, far too interesting!)

Branwell Bell, Friday, 11 April 2014 19:40 (ten years ago) link

omg @ DF - is it new stuff??

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Friday, 11 April 2014 19:42 (ten years ago) link

No, no, I'm posting all of the old, original DF stories on AO3, one week at a time. Lots of it has been re-edited and "remastered" but it's still basically the same stories. This is the very end of LIAWOD I'm posting now. It feels like the passing of an age, but it's been so fun to see all those characters again. LOL.

I have done a new story in the ~Deep Field Universe~ but there's no way I'm posting the URL on ILX.

haha the worst was when one of your parents picked up the line to tell you to get off the phone and you were ~talking about sex~ and it was so embarrassing because OMG OMG how much did you hear. What's even funnier was that usually it was my Dad shouting at me because he wanted to get his computer to talk to some other computer in California, and it was supposed to be ~work~ but thinking back on it, he was probably posting to some early 80s proto internet discussion group, oh dear.

Branwell Bell, Friday, 11 April 2014 19:47 (ten years ago) link

my friend's dad secretly taped our phone conversations using a hidden tape recorder in the ceiling that he had connected to the phone line (which was legal at that time in that place because it was in his name)

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Friday, 11 April 2014 19:48 (ten years ago) link

omg did you totally die

kinder, Friday, 11 April 2014 19:50 (ten years ago) link

!!!!!!!!!!!

That is so fucked up! Why did he do that?

Branwell Bell, Friday, 11 April 2014 19:50 (ten years ago) link

i had one best friend who went to a different school so we chatted on the phone all evening or met up to eat Monster Munch and listen to shitty reggae tapes
we haven't much kept in touch but she was the only person I would chat to for so long. I realllllly hate the phone now, can just about bear it with my husband.
anyway she has just had a baby! determined to be a better friend.

kinder, Friday, 11 April 2014 19:52 (ten years ago) link

oh wait I just re-read, it was your FRIEND'S dad, not even your own? uuughhhh

kinder, Friday, 11 April 2014 19:52 (ten years ago) link

yes i did die but then i kind of mentally reveled in the fact that he knows things about me that he can't unknow and he also can't let me know he knows, so who's uncomfortable now? ha

he was trying to conduct surveillance on his wife, who he believed to be having an affair (he was right but goddamn can you just talk to her about it?!)

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Friday, 11 April 2014 19:53 (ten years ago) link

i remember girls getting someone on the 3rd line and not telling the other person, people getting busted for gossiping that way

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Friday, 11 April 2014 19:55 (ten years ago) link

OK, that is super fucked up. Like - you think your wife is having an affair so you spy on your entire family and all their friends? It sucks, but still, confront her, don't take everyone else down with her. x-post to LL

Branwell Bell, Friday, 11 April 2014 19:56 (ten years ago) link

It was suuuuuuper fucked up!

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Friday, 11 April 2014 20:19 (ten years ago) link

It's less of the secrets-sharing I miss, but more of the mundane chit chat - my BFF and I used to talk on the phone every night before I moved here, for at least an hour. That's why I like this thread, but also the ILS threads - the serious convos are great, but I love just shooting the shit with the women.

just1n3, Friday, 11 April 2014 20:42 (ten years ago) link

Cher was so freakin hot in Mask. I loved that movie when i was a kid.
Now I want a giant spiral perm.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Saturday, 12 April 2014 03:36 (ten years ago) link

I loved that movie so much.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Saturday, 12 April 2014 10:45 (ten years ago) link

I didn't use the phone that much as a teen! I knew that teens "did" that and I wanted to want to, because I was supposed to do that, but I just didn't have those kinds of friendships iirc. I had some friends but I think we, like, DID stuff, like go on church trips and bike rides and swim, but I don't remember hanging out for hours talking. I think I had books and my mom for that and friends were more like a social minefield that was sometimes also mean to me.

I can't remember the details of a lot of my childhood tbh.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Saturday, 12 April 2014 13:20 (ten years ago) link

(If my friends were mean to me, I was also unthinkingly critical and cutting to them, probably--I was not a kind young person.)

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Saturday, 12 April 2014 13:21 (ten years ago) link

I definitely in high school told someone it was admirable that she didn't care about fashion--I thought she was frumpy and out of style but we were also v religious (her even more than me, she married a minister and moved to Mexico) so that kind of denial was encouraged. Anyway, she got mad obv because she HADN'T renounced fashion at all and I was insulting her. That kind of thing.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Saturday, 12 April 2014 13:27 (ten years ago) link

Terrible word + picture meme on fb the other day alerted me to the existence of this quote, which made me think of Lechera for various reasons actually:

“I used to think I was the strangest person in the world but then I thought there are so many people in the world, there must be someone just like me who feels bizarre and flawed in the same ways I do. I would imagine her, and imagine that she must be out there thinking of me too. Well, I hope that if you are out there and read this and know that, yes, it's true I'm here, and I'm just as strange as you.”
― Frida Kahlo

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Saturday, 12 April 2014 13:35 (ten years ago) link

that stuff about your youth is heavy.
i have mixed feelings about that quotation

this whole convo about friends has made me unpleasantly maudlin, like in a mournful way.

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Saturday, 12 April 2014 14:04 (ten years ago) link

It doesn't feel heavy! But it also feels like it happened to another person. :) I don't feel like I became "me" until I was in my mid-20s or so.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Saturday, 12 April 2014 14:07 (ten years ago) link

Sorry about the quote btw, it was just a thought.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Saturday, 12 April 2014 14:09 (ten years ago) link

The funny thing about the woman who posted the Kahlo quote to my feed is that she's a total norm imo, but maybe she's not so normal in the Midwest, and even norms can be freaks on the inside.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Saturday, 12 April 2014 14:11 (ten years ago) link

Hm. My friends also weren't what you'd call rebellious and were mostly extremely "nice" girls. I, otoh, wanted to break things and fuck things up but was too controlled and wasn't accepted by any actual "bad" kids so I stuffed it down inside, I guess. I was pretty normal too on the outside.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Saturday, 12 April 2014 14:23 (ten years ago) link

Oh god I must be a terrible person, because that quote was on Tumblr with a bunch of Kahlo paintings above it, and I totally reblogged it, mostly because the paintings were awesome, but also because I liked the quote. But really, I guess what else are these image memes for but to prove what an awful person you are to the world.

Branwell Bell, Saturday, 12 April 2014 14:27 (ten years ago) link

http://captainawkward.com/2014/04/11/563-i-have-a-hard-enough-time-making-friends-for-myself-how-do-i-navigate-the-special-hell-that-is-arranging-playdates-for-my-children/

This specifically about making mom friends (something I'm not personally that interested in doing bc I feel like I can't devote enough time to my core group of beloved friends (hi LL I miss u boo <3)) but also contains great advice about making friends in general when you feel like a weirdo.

carl agatha, Saturday, 12 April 2014 14:28 (ten years ago) link

I liked the quote too! To the extent that I was being negative about it, it was in line with the ilx joek thread about picture memes, most of which are let's be honest, pretty bad (and also frequently wrongly attributed). I wouldn't have remembered or repeated it if it hadn't resonated for me!

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Saturday, 12 April 2014 14:29 (ten years ago) link

I talked to my Mum on the phone for about an hour this morning, which kinda helped a little. It's good that we are both old enough now that we can kind of talk woman to woman, about our crushes and ridiculous things like that (and trying to stay off politics, because we agree too much and just start shouting, and off gender issues, because we disagree and also start shouting). And she natters on about Harrison Ford for a bit, and I natter on about my current crush's odd lack of eyebrows and she laughs and says "oh, now that sounds familiar, no wonder you have a crush on him". And then she started teasing me that she was going to go and see his band, because they are playing in Vermont, near where she lives! But then the phone starts crackling, and a reminder of how very very far away she lives, and how shit international lines are.

She told me to do some gardening, which kinda helped. But not really.

Branwell Bell, Saturday, 12 April 2014 14:32 (ten years ago) link

Also have any of you heard the This American Life ep where a woman (Starlee Klein iirc) makes tapes of her own oral history for a new friend? It's her solution to the problem of new friends not knowing your history/secrets.

carl agatha, Saturday, 12 April 2014 14:33 (ten years ago) link

oh don't be sorry! i just have mixed feelings about it, they're not strong, just mixed!
no one is a terrible person*

*there are some exceptions

branwell your mom sounds like a gem

hi carl <3 ;) <3
you are in good company as the many friends of lechera who also have infants have schooled me on what to expect. my problem lies in the fact that everyone i usually turn to is in the same situation -- newborns.

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Saturday, 12 April 2014 14:37 (ten years ago) link

OMG how awkward. Like, imagine if someone gave you a tape of their oral history. It would be like a mixtape that was too personal to listen to, but too awkward not to, and wow, if someone ever made one of those for me, I think I would back away slowly and go to great lengths to never, ever meet that person again. x-post now

Branwell Bell, Saturday, 12 April 2014 14:38 (ten years ago) link

or little babies, like <2
the ones whose kids are getting a little older are starting to come back around though
maybe i should start making phone dates with them

i think i made it partially through that ep and had to stop because it was too much and her voice (sorry)

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Saturday, 12 April 2014 14:41 (ten years ago) link

Wait, LL, are you parenting (or about to be parenting), or are you trying to deal with a social circle of friends who are all now parenting?

I just seem to have accepted that parenting is a cliff off which my friends disappear. And sometimes they reappear after 16 years when their progeny are able to drive themselves, but mostly they don't. It has got to the point when, even if I just hear that a new friend is "trying for a baby" then I start distancing myself now, because it's easier to do it before you've established an intimacy which will have to be broken, than go through the disappointment of when they fall off the baby cliff. I also recognise this is probably counterproductive, but it's just hard, bitter experience. I know this makes me a terrible person.

Branwell Bell, Saturday, 12 April 2014 14:47 (ten years ago) link

I am with you Branwell Bell on the whole tape thing. I would not be comfortable with that in the least. Also LL don't one of our mutual friends have a story about SK in which she comes off as a huge jerk? That always colors my feelings about her work.

carl agatha, Saturday, 12 April 2014 14:48 (ten years ago) link

trying to deal with a social circle of friends who are all now parenting?
^^ my closest personal circle primarily at this moment + everyone else who is already medium-lost
this is not something i desire for myself, i just miss them like super bad.

i think kelz had a story? right?

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Saturday, 12 April 2014 14:54 (ten years ago) link

For me it's not just the existence of my baby but also being really tired all the time and being the kind of person who needs a fair amount of me time/quiet time. I'm going to bed at 9:00 every night and on weekends trying to keep my house my descending into utter chaos and maybe reading a little.

Also it's tough to spend more than a couple hours away from the baby without getting into the logistics of breast pumping and milk storage. That will ease up in the coming months when she starts eating some food food.

carl agatha, Saturday, 12 April 2014 14:56 (ten years ago) link

Gotcha, LL. It is an odd phenomenon to go through. Someone once described it as being like when suddenly all of your friends sprout this new, incredibly time-consuming hobby and you can kind of learn to deal with it, and even enjoy watching them enjoying their hobby, but you're never going to be sharing that hobby, and the sadness of feeling that they would really rather be hanging out with other people who share that hobby, too.

Maybe I should join a nunnery, but I guess all the women in nunneries share a weird hobby in that they're into this god thing, which, again, I can watch people enjoying, but not participate in, so I guess that's out.

Branwell Bell, Saturday, 12 April 2014 15:00 (ten years ago) link

BUT what has been lovely for us and kept us from feeling too isolated is having people over (also I welcome people inviting themselves over since apparently time dilation is a side effect of reproducing and I will think "I miss my pals I should invite them over" and then two months have passed) and also afternoons out at baby friendly bars/restaurants.

Basically without being too sappy I love my friends and would be super sad if I fell off a parenting cliff. I actually don't feel like I want to just hang out with people who have kids at all. Hell's bells I don't even like reading parenting message boards outside of the occasional need to reassure myself that bright orange poop is a common experience and nothing to call the doctor about.

xp yeah Kelzzzzz had the story but I wasn't totally sure it was SK nor can I remember what the details were.

carl agatha, Saturday, 12 April 2014 15:03 (ten years ago) link

I just remember that SK was a jerk to my friend and therefore I view all of her work product with skepticism.

carl agatha, Saturday, 12 April 2014 15:05 (ten years ago) link

One more thing well two more:

I think with friends who have kids if you want to keep them in your life it requires a little more outreach on your part, at least at first. That CA post says to invite people to a thing twice and if they refuse, hang back and see if they reciprocate. I think with new parents you have to give them more chances before waiting for the reciprocal attempt at contact but then if your friends rebuff your invites, you can say "Yeah okay they want to hang out with people who have kids and not me." But being a new parent can be isolating and I don't think anybody should assume that it comes with a desire to have all new friends. You just have to put in the extra work for a bit both with reaching out and maybe being the one who comes to them.

Other thing: I like talking on the phone! Jesse and I talk on the phone a lot and it's easy because there's no pressure to make it an event and if I get busy or just get tired of talking I can say so and we hang up. Anyway LL I will talk with you on the phone bc I get tired of typing, too.

carl agatha, Saturday, 12 April 2014 15:13 (ten years ago) link

I say "you" up there but I'm not talking to anybody specifically just a general you.

carl agatha, Saturday, 12 April 2014 15:14 (ten years ago) link

i love you too carl and that is why i keep on holding on -- you'll come back around eventually!

You just have to put in the extra work for a bit both with reaching out and maybe being the one who comes to them.
see, i totally know all that already -- esp this
i've been told over and over, and i understand. my problem is that 1) this is very tiring to do with all of my best friends at the same time and there's a 2) but it's totally selfish.

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Saturday, 12 April 2014 15:26 (ten years ago) link

Also I just remembered something
It's spraaaaaang breaaaaaaaaaak

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Saturday, 12 April 2014 15:44 (ten years ago) link

I'll flash you my boobs later in celebration.

carl agatha, Saturday, 12 April 2014 15:56 (ten years ago) link

lollllllll @ recording a history of your life for a new friend. holy shit. and hey, here are all the poems I wrote in university, the links to the Sinister archives, and my Blogger blog from 2002. No one deserves that pain and awkwardness.

That article/letter-response about making friends is sort of good as an overall thing, not necessarily even just for parents, though it's kind of common sense (that i don't always follow, haha, unfounded fears/shyness are hard to shake...). I remain amazed at how social my brothers and I are considering that my parents tend towards being anti-social/socially-weird (like, my dad is a nice, handsome guy but an introvert and the only person he's hung out with for the past 20+ years is his gf. and my mom is still scarred from an ostracizing childhood, though at least her teaching work and living in a hippie small town of weirdos keeps her more social now). That said, my friends are pretty much all weirdos and artist types and thankfully a handful of them have recently had babies or will be having babies (and my bf just found out his half-sister is pregnant too! and she doesn't live all that far away).

Maybe i'm just going to throw low-key early-evening or weekend-afternoon parties at home or in the park and invite friends over and buy some chips and cookies and beer/wine. (And I'm still going to go to shows, dammit, they make baby noise-blocking ear protectors for a reason.) At some point it would be rad to bring this baby to NYC to meet "the gang". I know all kinds of people who have travelled with their young babies; I am not afraid.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Saturday, 12 April 2014 16:57 (ten years ago) link

Most of my friends back home have children, but 1. I enjoy hanging out with most children, and maybe especially now that I'm pretty sure I've missed the window to have my own 2. I don't really care whether we go anywhere as long as we talk, I am happy to be the one who goes to them. But I've been away 5 years now, and I see them in intense bursts twice a year. I miss everyone, my friends' kids as well as the friends themselves, and I don't really have a grasp of how things would feel if I was living in the UK.

ljubljana, Saturday, 12 April 2014 20:25 (ten years ago) link

I remember one of the threads I posted on very early in my ilx "tenure" was about friends with kids and being sad and terrified that they would not want to hang with me anymore, and nabisco said, "actually, your friends with babies will really want to spend time with you because you are a nice change from the baby and dealing with baby stuff." (i am paraphrasing) -- but I had a tax appointment with a friend (not a particularly close one) and her fiancee who had just had a baby about a year ago, and they seemed really happy to be hanging out in their kitchen eating adult food and drinking adult beverages and talking about adult non-parent things and gave me an open invitation to come over for dinner soon. ... So, four years later, nabisco proved otm.

sarahell, Saturday, 12 April 2014 21:20 (ten years ago) link

thing is, I often would prefer to hang out with the parent/s sans kiddo. I'm not sure how most parents interpret "I'd love to see you! Let's get together in the next two weeks." I think a lot may interpret that as "I'd love to see you and your children" when in fact that is not what I mean.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Saturday, 12 April 2014 21:31 (ten years ago) link

I mean to be fair one of my friends with twin toddlers always responds "OH HELL YES hang on let me check the sitter availability" so y'know we don't have to do that dance.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Saturday, 12 April 2014 21:33 (ten years ago) link

Add to this the frustration of women who will not leave their children home alone with the father of said children

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Saturday, 12 April 2014 21:34 (ten years ago) link

everyone i went to highschool with has babies, EXCEPT my core group of friends (only one has kids, and she had her first one at 20).

just1n3, Saturday, 12 April 2014 23:25 (ten years ago) link

and the 3 closest friends i've made since then don't have kids either!

just1n3, Saturday, 12 April 2014 23:26 (ten years ago) link

i would like to talk about choosing not to have kids and the way people sometimes treat people for that choice

my soon-to-be husband's brothers treat us like we are second class citizens with no schedules and no lives because we don't have kids and never plan to. they plan things without consulting him, because hey, we can do whatever whenever, right?! they also constantly make lightly pressuring jokes about how we should really have kids ALL the time, and how our lives will be pointless otherwise, etc. it is so infuriating! for a million reasons it is infuriating, not least of which that they even don't know if we are capable of reproducing biologically and it therefore may be a sore subject, because they have never asked, not that I would tell them, NOT THAT IT IS THEIR BUSINESS AT ALL.

it's very weird for me, because i have 3 siblings - 2 of us have kids, 2 of us don't and don't plan to, no one cares and we're all equal. like, it's never even come up.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Sunday, 13 April 2014 01:25 (ten years ago) link

reproducing biologically? that was a dumb way to say that. having a baby come out of my body is what i am talking about. i AM capable of doing this (afaik), just to be clear. but i have often been tempted to snap "i can't have kids actually, thanks for constantly bringing it up," jsut to confer the proper amount of shame on them for their behavior. however, they should be ashamed for not respecting people's autonomy and personal choices, not for imaginary reasons.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Sunday, 13 April 2014 01:28 (ten years ago) link

I several friends who don't want children and they get this shit all the time and it's awful and I hate hearing about it.

Oh the other hand I do want children and I get a lot of "what are you waiting for?" "time is running out, you better get started" comments which are super infuriating too for similar reasons. How do they know why I haven't yet? What if I was having fertility issues or something? Last year when my co-woker told me my ovaries were shriveling up I later thought that I should have said, "Actually, I've been trying for 5 years so thanks for that" but at the time I was too shocked to say much of anything.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Sunday, 13 April 2014 01:42 (ten years ago) link

Whooey roxy you are talking about my situation (only minus the siblings).

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Sunday, 13 April 2014 01:58 (ten years ago) link

The idiots who are making things uncomfortable for roxy, LL and ENBB are idiots. But I've maybe also been that idiot. I never said anything, but I've been annoyed at the withholding of info that's none of my business.

There's this couple who were once close friends of mine, but have a tendency to get outraged very easily. They're in their early 40s now. They talked vehemently in their early 30s about how horrified they were that people ever asked them about their plans for having kids, and how it was none of anyone's business. That's fundamentally true. But at some point, not discussing the situation even with their very closest friends just got weird, because they themselves made such a fuss about being asked by less-close friends. The guy clearly adored, and still adores, children in general. The woman is more equivocal, though she gets on with kids just fine. They moved into an enormous house a few years ago, just the two of them, and said they wanted 'more room'. Either they've decided not to have kids, in which case their closest friends would have shrugged and moved on, or they can't, which would be sad if they wanted them but something they could have trusted their close friends not to make a big deal of. Or they haven't decided yet, in which case what on earth was all the fuss about? Instead, there was this 'how dare they ask!!!!' drama that just drew attention to the whole issue.

Not your situation, though, since none of you are into drama as far as I can tell! And I felt bad wanting to know, because even behaving as they did, of course they still had a perfect right to keep shtum.

ljubljana, Sunday, 13 April 2014 02:50 (ten years ago) link

mr veg and I have chosen not to have kids...i am thankful no-one has given us a hard time. i think mum is kinda confused like 'oh they will eventually just not now' sort of thing, but if I was still living in my hometown i know it would TOTALLY be a thing.

my best friend back home told her sister she wasnt having kids & her sister legit started bawling right there in front of her, as if my friend's vagina had just committed suicide or some shit. wtf.
ppl are so insensitive about it, it pisses me off. why should HER CHOICE reduce her sister to tears. you should say oh ok cool. fin.

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 13 April 2014 03:00 (ten years ago) link

Oh man I used to get so IA about the child-free thing (the term "childless" still irks), but I guess I have mellowed out. Also once you get old enough/have been coupled (especially married) long enough without breeding, ppl stop asking. By far, far, far the majority of women in the world have been pregnant/have borne children. Some of us haven't. It is a special little club. Welcome :)

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Sunday, 13 April 2014 03:53 (ten years ago) link

UnBabby Club

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 13 April 2014 03:59 (ten years ago) link

i think i've been exceptionally lucky to have never really dealt with this - for all my parents' faults, asking me about when/if i'm having kids, let alone expecting me to have them, is just never a thing they would think to do. and jordan's parents... well, his mum basically told me that having children is overrated!!! and like i said, none of my close friends have children. in fact, the only person i can recently remember asking me about kids was one of the women i work with - but she's middle-aged and from the philippines and catholic so it's different.

the sibling thread is an interesting tie-in with this subject; to be harshly honest, i worry about what will happen to us when we're old and don't have kids bc we don't have close family out here, AND if we did have a kid i'd want to stick with one bc that's all i could handle BUT then i don't want that one kid stuck looking after us. so.

i think some ppl are just ignorant. they think it's 'normal' to have a family so they don't see it as inappropriate to ask about yours. but it's easy for me to not feel that bothered by it bc i don't have to deal with it, and also bc there isn't anything going on behind the scenes like fertility issues or anything.

just1n3, Sunday, 13 April 2014 06:24 (ten years ago) link

Sibling thread?

I dunno. This stuff is just complicated. People ask inappropriate questions they don't realise are inappropriate because it's just ~the next step~ on the presumed ~couple ladder~ and easy default conversation when you don't know what else to talk about. I know I've done it myself, when younger, even as I've grown into a situation which is, well, complicated. I feel like people have the right to Not Talk About It, but also, people have the right to ask - but having the right to ask means having the right to ask, politely and respectfully, once, and then shut the fuck up and be satisfied with whatever answer is given.

I was thinking about this, because I was thinking about friends who have fallen off the Parenting Cliff.

I got very irritated at a former friend I was once very close to, who had always been kind of entitled and selfish, and that was just part of the deal of hanging out with her, because she had a million other good qualities that made up for it. Now, I know that this is the equivalent of saying that I eat babies and worship Hitler or whatever, but: I do not like small children. I am extremely uncomfortable with babies and small children. Part of this is the fact that I did not grow up around babies, didn't have an extended family with babies. And part of this is complicated stuff I will get into later. Suffice it to say, I do not like babies. I do not want to hold anyone's baby, or be made responsible for anyone's baby. And this friend turned up at an event where I was DJ-ing, demanded that I look after her baby (not even because she wanted to spend time with me, but because she wanted to spend time with another friend!) and laid heavy guilt on me until she literally dropped the child in my lap, against my will. I don't know how to look after a baby, I was given no guidance as to what to do, even how to hold it, the child sensed my discomfort because children are not stupid, and immediately rolled off my lap and onto the floor, with a wail and accusations of "you dropped my baby!" No, you thrust your child onto an unwilling party who warned you in advance they were uncomfortable with the task. Next time someone says "I'd rather not hold your baby" just don't stick your baby on them.

And there's a part of me that wants to say: if you are a parent, please just *accept* that there are some people who do not like babies, or are uncomfortable with babies, and as much as you adore your little diddums, it is not your duty to get that person *over* their fear, or expect your child to be somehow magically excepted from that person's discomfort, because hey, your child is so adorable, who won't like your child? Hitler, that's who. That's like going up to the person who has told you that they have a severe phobia of dogs and telling them "oh, but my dog is ~friendly~!!!" and letting that dog run up to them, jump up on their lap and lick their face. You will never see that person again if you disrespect their boundaries so thoroughly. DON'T BE THAT PARENT.

But, you know "not liking children" is complicated. Yes, it's because I'm a shrivelled up old prune who hates fun and hates life and really really hates noise and disorder and bad smells and rock'n'roll and apple pie. Or something. But it's also because my child-free status is complicated. I desperately wanted children when I was younger. I was forced to terminate an unplanned but wanted pregnancy at 30 because of health issues, and I gave up for adoption the child I fathered (in every sense of the word except providing the sperm) when I was 17. This stuff is shitty and painful to even just type on a messageboard thread, where I don't have to show anyone that I'm wiping away tears as I type it. It's easier to just say "I don't want to be around children because I fucking hate babies and yes, I do worship Satan, too" than to talk about how painful and complicated my feelings about ~babies~ are.

I do realise that friends who have children are not making their lifestyle choices *at* me. But it's also the sense, when people say "oh, you just have to make more effort" with friends who have had children. Yes, I have to make a huge amount of effort (when I don't *have* a lot of emotional wherewithal to start with) to place myself in a situation that I may find painful and emotionally raw. Oh, let me think about that. You know what, it's probably better for both of us if we let this friendship quietly slip away.

Family stuff got easier after my brother had a child, that took the pressure off me. But now my brother is divorced, and he and my Mum are estranged, and even the One Golden Grandchild has become a complicated situation, and guess who my Mum always wants to talk to about how *complicated* that situation is? I am a bad daughter. I give her about 5 minutes of Talking About The Grandchild while I go "uh-huh" vaguely because clearly she needs to talk about it, and then I change the subject because oh hey this is an unhappy and fraught subject on so many levels.

I thought I'd feel better after typing all that shit out, but really, I don't. It doesn't ever get any easier talking about this stuff.

People don't have children for all kinds of reasons, some through choice and some not through choice, and all of those reasons should be respected, and people who don't respect those reasons are the *real* baby-eating Satan-Hitlers. I feel bad for leaving this emotional vomit all over the thread now. My apologies to anyone I've made uncomfortable with this post.

Branwell Bell, Sunday, 13 April 2014 10:01 (ten years ago) link

tl;dr - sometimes it's even *more* complicated than "fertility issues" and people are still assholes about it

Branwell Bell, Sunday, 13 April 2014 10:02 (ten years ago) link

I should really learn to stay the fuck out of these conversations. :(

Branwell Bell, Sunday, 13 April 2014 10:06 (ten years ago) link

I don't see why you would have made anyone uncomfortable with that post! It was very interesting and honest which is very admirable and you are right, sometimes it is about more than fertility issues which was what I was trying to get at earlier. I would have loved to have a baby any time in last 3-4 years but it did not happen for a number of incredibly valid and good reasons (none of which have anything to do with fertility) and overall it's a very good thing that it did not. However, that doesn't mean it's not incredibly hurtful to me when people make those kinds of comments. I guess it's because I know how hard some people struggle with infertility that it seems like it should be more hurtful to them and that my hurt isn't justified but your post made me realize that that's not true at all. Anyway, people are insensitive jerks is how I break it down to an extent and I'm sorry that you've had to experience that.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Sunday, 13 April 2014 12:16 (ten years ago) link

Also, to all the child free by choice folks, I once worked with a woman who was probably nearing 60 at the time and who had never had kids. I very clearly remember her telling me that not having children was the best choice she had ever made and that she didn't regret anything about it. This lady was awesome and had led one of the coolest most interesting lives I've ever heard about. I think about her every time one of my friends tells me about getting the whole "Oh, you'll regret that choice when you're older" spiel.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Sunday, 13 April 2014 12:19 (ten years ago) link

Also BB, you don't have any reason to be worried about posting about your dislike for small babies. I freaking love babies but because I've never been around them, I have no idea what to do with them and they make me incredibly nervous! I was once cooing over someone's six week old at a rehearsal dinner when the mother suddenly put her arms out and tried to give me the baby and I was like "No, no, please it's OK I don't need to hold her!". I will never forget this lady's face when I declined to hold that baby. She looked so offended but I'd had wine and I'd never held a baby that small and I was terrified I'd drop her. I've still only held a newborn exactly once. If I do ever have a kid I'm going to have to start hanging out at a daycare or something so that I get used to very small people.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Sunday, 13 April 2014 12:25 (ten years ago) link

I do not feel uncomfortable with that post! You make a good point about not everybody wanting to be around babies. I don't think I am that parent? But it's something to be mindful of because I am a big sappy dope about my kid and might forget not everybody is flooded with baby-oxytocin.

carl agatha, Sunday, 13 April 2014 12:30 (ten years ago) link

great post branwell.

if you are a parent, please just *accept* that there are some people who do not like babies, or are uncomfortable with babies, and as much as you adore your little diddums, it is not your duty to get that person *over* their fear, or expect your child to be somehow magically excepted from that person's discomfort

YES

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Sunday, 13 April 2014 14:31 (ten years ago) link

Also kindly try not to treat that person like a fragile freak, or a person who lacks maturity. If I'm going stay in a buoyant mood, I need to not type out my abundant feelings about this but I'm happy to discuss irl (or on the lol phone!)

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Sunday, 13 April 2014 14:38 (ten years ago) link

ll, we ate some of the pine resin jam that you gave us the other night on Club crackers, it was soooo good. also i didn't notice that on the container it says "effective against flu and bronchitis" - with no caveat, asterisk, etc

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Sunday, 13 April 2014 15:03 (ten years ago) link

Oh that's great!! I love the language on the jar. Everything about that product really delights me and I'm so glad you liked it!!

The health benefits have no caveat because you need to believe that the Rhodopy Mountain people know what they're doing. I haven't been gobbling spoonfuls of it daily or anything, but I haven't been sick either!!

Also if it's just pine sap + sugar syrup, doesn't that mean we can make our own? Wanted to ask you that!!

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Sunday, 13 April 2014 15:12 (ten years ago) link

I guess I was worried about making people uncomfortable with that post, because I realise that there are many parents here. And parents can be kinda ~precious~ (sarcastic "precious") about their children, because children are actually *precious* (genuine, real precious, not sarcastic "precious").

And I guess it's just one of those things that I struggle with. I hate babies! But... how can anyone hate babies? Babies are wonderful and amazing and great! Especially a person who reads as "female", like how can a *female* person with a womb and everything ~hate babies~? It's just another way I feel like I've failed as a "woman". Saying you hate babies is like saying you hate flowers and unicorns and fun.

Except... just... there are more reasons to feel uncomfortable and unhappy around babies than just being an Evil Failed Woman and worshipping Satan.

Thanks for understanding, ladies. This thread is the best.

I have spent the afternoon in the community garden planting pansies and spreading woodchips and hoeing so I'm feeling really full of life and positivity again now! I wish I could give you all rhubarb.

Branwell Bell, Sunday, 13 April 2014 15:33 (ten years ago) link

Gardening is awesome therapy. I can't wait to get back to my garden. Rhubarb is a favorite! I don't have any planted, but may stick some in in the fall.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Sunday, 13 April 2014 15:41 (ten years ago) link

Sorry, I was using fertility issues just as an example of complicated private stuff related to the kid-choice - I def didnt mean to imply thats the -only- complication out there.

just1n3, Sunday, 13 April 2014 15:52 (ten years ago) link

i did my first gardening of the year today too <3 feeling really alive and hopeful and full of vit D

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Sunday, 13 April 2014 16:22 (ten years ago) link

Lol me too, yesterday - first time ever! I bought easy veggies to grow too.

just1n3, Sunday, 13 April 2014 16:26 (ten years ago) link

Stewed rhubarb is the best, maybe I should grow some too.

just1n3, Sunday, 13 April 2014 16:27 (ten years ago) link

LL - i think it would be easy to make, pine sap is really easy to collect!

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Sunday, 13 April 2014 16:30 (ten years ago) link

It's so weird, like, every Sunday, I feel so lazy and sluggish and "ugh, do not want to go up to the community garden, I'd rather lie in bed and mope" - like that, is crazy! Every time I go to the garden and muck around digging and planting things, I come home feeling amazingly great. It's partly gardening, and partly this gang of awesome middle aged ladies who insist we take a tea break every 45 minutes and sit around talking about Japanese Knotweed and slugs and Serious Apple Tree Business. And every time I go, I come back thinking "Why did I not want to go?!" And yet it's like I have this demon sitting on my chest who does not want me to go up there and get happy. I need to tell that demon to STFU on Sunday mornings and go garden every week.

I have even sowed rocket and beans in my tiny planter at home, I am so inspired. We have been discussing trellis vs wig-wam bean cultivation styles up at the garden so I'm excited to see what I can do in the little concrete courtyard.

What is everyone else growing?

Branwell Bell, Sunday, 13 April 2014 17:39 (ten years ago) link

Right now I am trying to keep alive, in pots, for two more weeks:
_* heirloom tomato seedlings
_* jalapeno, serrano, and habenero pepper seedlings
_* bunch o' herbs (parsley, sage, rosemary, French and lemon thyme, basil, spearmint, tarragon, dill, maybe something else that I am forgetting?)
_* three unusual ferns
_* two hostas
_* several hellebores

Mom's gonna dig some stuff out of her garden--more hostas, maybe some other perennials.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Sunday, 13 April 2014 18:01 (ten years ago) link

that sounds fantastic. Good mix of edible and decorative. (Love "unusual ferns")

You've also reminded me I need to buy herbs, but I tend to get starter pots at Sainsburys, plant it out and keep it going.

Branwell Bell, Sunday, 13 April 2014 18:28 (ten years ago) link

I never really decided whether I wanted kids or not and now I guess I'm not having them, seeing as I'm in my mid-30s and single, way too fucked up to consider being not-single soon (not v likely even if I wanted to), and way too risk-averse to try for kids with anyone I hadn't been with for at least a few years; also, PCOS prob means fertility issues, and one more unconfirmed medical suspicion re breeding too.

This makes me kinda sad even though I don't really like being around kids; at least, I always feel so nervous around them bcz kids are fragile and kids speak their minds and I can't deal with either, and a kid shouldn't have to deal with a perma-nervous depresso mother who will fuck them up by being so neurotic, even if I didn't flip out with my horrible temper and do actively bad stuff, which, you know, I hope I could manage not to but it scares me. Hi I'm weird.

I work in a library tho and sooo many of my coworkers are female, older than me and childless, so I have a kind of skewed idea of how normal it is I guess. It's weird though, all the guys are married with kids and so few of the women are.

OK, back to gardening talk. I don't have a garden either! I do have a balcony that I have a few pot plants on except I've had mad slug infestations recently. How do they even get up to my second floor (3rd floor US) balcony?

the ghosts of dead pom-bears (a passing spacecadet), Sunday, 13 April 2014 19:39 (ten years ago) link

As someone once pointed out to me (roxy??), they can get anywhere, because their whole body is a foot! The way to curtail slugs is to clear away all growth, vines, etc from the base of the wall they're climbing up. If there's foliage climbing up the wall, it will bring bugs.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Sunday, 13 April 2014 21:20 (ten years ago) link

there was a lifehacker article last week about the easiest veggies to grow, which inspired me - so i got:
- cucumber
- red and green peppers
- zucchini
- radishes
- lettuce
- tomatoes
- parsley
- thai basil

i got a pretty fern as well, and still want to get some bouganvillea to cover the fence, maybe some beans and regular basil too. we already have a ton of potted succulents (i should post pics for crabbits). we have a small front yard that is just bark chip with some huge camellia bushes and landlord has just been like 'you can do whatever you want or nothing at all', which is nice. so yeah, i think i might really get into gardening this summer!!!

just1n3, Sunday, 13 April 2014 21:51 (ten years ago) link

Oh I'm glad you mentioned bouganvillea! I want to get two mandevilla (sp?) to climb up these trellis thingies left by previous owners; those things did an awesome job two years ago, but I failed to bring them in over the winter so I will have to start from scratch.

Radishes are one of my favorite things to grow! They sprout practically overnight, which makes one feel quite accomplished. Lettuce is also a really great "beginner" veggie, as long as you're not trying to grow it when it is too hot.

Eating perfectly ripe tomatoes you grew your self is one of the best summer experiences imo.

Consider trying strawberries! Easy and so tasty.

Spacecadet, you can set out beer traps (just some beer in a couple of shallow bowls) to catch slugs.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Sunday, 13 April 2014 22:07 (ten years ago) link

We use this strange grease/glue stuff which you spread around the base of trees or the rims of pots, over which slugs apparently cannot climb. So far, it appears to be working, at least our figs are untouched.

This makes me kinda sad even though I don't really like being around kids; at least, I always feel so nervous around them bcz kids are fragile and kids speak their minds and I can't deal with either, and a kid shouldn't have to deal with a perma-nervous depresso mother who will fuck them up by being so neurotic, even if I didn't flip out with my horrible temper and do actively bad stuff, which, you know, I hope I could manage not to but it scares me. Hi I'm weird.

This is the kind of double bind crap that really fucks up my head. Like, the constant hysteria (sexist word chosen somewhat deliberately) and mother-shaming all the time of "OMG IF YOU ARE NOT PERFECT MOTHER YOU ARE CRAP AND WILL DESTROY CHILDREN'S LIVES FOREVER" backed with the equal and opposite shaming of well, if you decide not to have children, for whatever reason, even if it's something reasonable like "I don't feel prepared to take on the responsibility of children" it's "OMG CHILDLESS WOMEN ARE USELESS AND SELFISH AND WEIRD AND UNFULFILLED." Why should anyone feel any obligation to bring another human being into the world, in order to conform to anyone's expectation of What Women Are Supposed To be. Yet another case of: Women! Whatever you do, it's wrong.

The good news is, once you hit 40, most people stop asking, because they assume your ovaries and your mind have already shrivelled up like tomato plants you forgot to water during a heat wave.

Speaking of which, I should go and water my beans.

Branwell Bell, Monday, 14 April 2014 08:32 (ten years ago) link

Sorry! God I should not have read that "children in pubs" thread first thing in the morning. That brought on the stabby rrrrrage.

Branwell Bell, Monday, 14 April 2014 08:37 (ten years ago) link

ok tbrr, the story that follows is why i feel heartbroken about my close female friendships:

* you guys reminded me that even if it's a repetitive task, i need to reach out to ppl who have just had babies, so i extra reached out to a friend a few other friends had asked about (and i had to report back "i don't know how she is") . so i called and left a message (casual, not demanding) and a funny text with a silly question. this was yesterday.

* this morning i got a text that read "so sorry, looking for time to call you back but i just don't have it. so consumed these next few weeks. soon!"
* my heart broke for real because i realized that i had been demoted

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Monday, 14 April 2014 16:03 (ten years ago) link

The good news is, once you hit 40, most people stop asking, because they assume your ovaries and your mind have already shrivelled up

I don't think they assume that about your 40 year old mind, or at least everyone I interact with doesn't. Maybe I have a knack for avoiding awful people? My parents have already accepted that the family line will end with me, and there is something glamorous about being viewed as a childless Satan-Hitler by intrusive acquaintances.

sarahell, Monday, 14 April 2014 16:43 (ten years ago) link

* this morning i got a text that read "so sorry, looking for time to call you back but i just don't have it. so consumed these next few weeks. soon!"
* my heart broke for real because i realized that i had been demoted

:(

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Monday, 14 April 2014 18:02 (ten years ago) link

I...dislike cold, hard reality so I try not to think about what priority level I am to my friends at any given moment. I also have enough of them in different stages of their lives that I can sort of afford to be less important to a lot of them if I can find a couple who have time for me in the near future or whatever. If they all left me, or I felt like they were leaving me, at the same time and I ran out of community to splash around in when I needed it, I would have no way of recharging or rebuilding my resources. I'm sorry. :(

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Monday, 14 April 2014 18:06 (ten years ago) link

yeah there's nothing i can do to make her want to talk to me more so i just have to accept it but it stings

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Monday, 14 April 2014 18:21 (ten years ago) link

A few weeks ago I was supposed to do something w a friend I don't see enough, and we both had the night "free" but also both had a bunch of *lyfe* obligations like studying, laundry, getting our shit together. After a few queries, we agreed to give each other the gift of time to put our lives in order because that pressure and those needs are real. Because we talked it over and were both agreed, it felt like an expression of our caring for each other.

This is not The Answer to anything, it was just a solution we found on that one occasion.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Monday, 14 April 2014 19:14 (ten years ago) link

ach i'm sorry LL, that would bum me out too!!

plus the extra level of mental havoc that reaching out and being backburnered adds, I'm not very good at handling stuff like that personally

kinda long tl;dr sobstory here, boo hoo friendships sorry but I need to get this out of my head

i am grappling with the possiblity that I may have officially lost a friendship with a girl I've been friends with since 7th Grade. top of the list, my favorite person in the world. she was a bit harder to reach after she had kids, but nothing I couldn't handle. she went through a divorce about 3 years ago, and since then seems to have pulled away from both me and our other mutual friend. she's not an email person, is kinda hard to stay in touch with from a distance generally anyway.

2 years ago when I was home I called & left a bunch of voicemails, Hi I'm in town for 2 weeks I'd love to see you etc...dropped by her house but no-one was home...ended up dropping a letter in her mailbox the day I left saying I was sad to see her. never heard anything. and this last time, I was only home for such a short time I didn't even make plans to catch up with her. and then I felt horrible so I wrote her a long snailmail letter about a month ago telling her how much I want to stay friends, in whatever form that takes etc.

but I don't know if I'll ever hear back. I don't want to think about the likelihood that I won't. i just wish I knew what was in her heart, if she's going through some shit or if we're just moving to the deep-freeze phase of the long distance friendship

the thing is we stayed tight through SO much shit. SO much. that I just can't get down with the idea that this is, possibly, it. I dunno if I can give up yet.

idk.

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 14 April 2014 23:53 (ten years ago) link

*sad to see her = *sad not to see her

jeez

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 14 April 2014 23:54 (ten years ago) link

all that makes me sound like a 'she's just not that into you' thing and that I'm crazystalking someone who doesnt' want to be friends

it's not exactly that way

there's more to it but yeah just :/

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 14 April 2014 23:55 (ten years ago) link

I hear you. I lost my first "best friend" by moving to NYC. We were inseparable, roommates and confidantes who needed no one else, for years. We thought no matter how much time passed, our connection would stay the same; that we'd be aunties to each other's kids. For about a year we talked on the phone on and off. Then stuff happened, and we stopped. In later years I left her a couple of messages, tried to get in touch when I was in town, but no response.

Finally I found her on fb and swung a visit to her two holidays ago. It was brief, coffee and an hour at her house. She was amiable but distracted, friendly but missing some emotional engagement. I thought catching up was important, but it was more important to her to take a nap before her night shift as a nurse. She has a husband and two kids and owns a house in our college town, and that life is more real than being friends with me (since I'm just going to leave again anyway?). It's probably healthier for her to have boundaries and a clear view of her daily needs but I def felt put in my place low on the list.

tl;dr, just...I feel that feeling too. It's weird-sad. I stopped trying, we're both still alive and part of the universe and maybe our stories will intersect again, maybe not. At the very least we changed each other. The fact of our history isn't erased by it not lasting forever....

:/

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Tuesday, 15 April 2014 00:13 (ten years ago) link

I wanted her to do more with her life than marry some Midwestern dweeb (he's a dweeb) and never leave our ultra-conservative town and not have any friends who weren't religious. I know it's hateful and patronizing of me to indulge these thoughts but she could have developed so much more interestingly.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Tuesday, 15 April 2014 00:17 (ten years ago) link

yep

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 15 April 2014 00:19 (ten years ago) link

That reads horribly--I should say that she was beautiful and iconoclastic and coquettish and confident and all the boys I liked liked her instead of me. She was a shining thing. Maybe she burned herself out, I don't know.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Tuesday, 15 April 2014 00:20 (ten years ago) link

i totally get what you mean

getting old/adulthood kinda blows in that regard

the stuff you want for each other as teenagers seems so much more exciting than what irl usually doles out

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 15 April 2014 00:20 (ten years ago) link

Like marrying Leonard Cohen.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Tuesday, 15 April 2014 00:23 (ten years ago) link

Somewhere on a 16-year old mixtape I have a live version of "There's a Light Beyond These Woods, Mary Margaret" by NG with a long monologue in front involving Mary Margaret and a truck stop jukebox, and I can't even think about it without crying.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Tuesday, 15 April 2014 00:26 (ten years ago) link

my sad violin of lost friendship is so loud that the hum has turned into a drone that may occasionally shift but never stops
today really got to me because of all i have been through with this person, and it left me feeling really burnt. i channeled that energy positively, which is good, but nothing has changed. i just don't feel bad about it atm.

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Tuesday, 15 April 2014 01:22 (ten years ago) link

maybe it's a little consolation to think to keep in mind that there'a a good chance it's not you, it's them - LL, maybe your friend is suffering some postpartem depression, minor or major, and is really struggling to stay on top of things? and maybe a similar thing in your case, VG, esp if your friend is no longer in contact with mutual friends, and had gone through a divorce?

just1n3, Tuesday, 15 April 2014 01:34 (ten years ago) link

yeah otm

that's kinda why I am not giving up. i sense that kernel is in there somewhere. spidey sense sorta

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 15 April 2014 01:50 (ten years ago) link

I wish for the women I love to always get their needs met and feel supported. It sucks that this is not within our control and yet affects us so profoundly. Other people, amirite?

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Tuesday, 15 April 2014 02:00 (ten years ago) link

Xp - Maybe! But previously she'd have talked with me about it, hence my demotion. :(

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Tuesday, 15 April 2014 02:18 (ten years ago) link

hard enough being us without projecting ourselves onto other people, and yet

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 15 April 2014 02:23 (ten years ago) link

Btw I am growing an old pot of chives that still struggle along (provenance unknown), some basil shoots, some rocket that is ROCKETING upwards and needs to be thinned out, two boxwood shrubs that appear to be about to flower? Plus outside I have some flower seeds and bulbs and garden plants that I hope will do better this year than last.

Also when I eat a scallion, I soak the white end in water for a couple of days and then plant it, so now when I want scallions I just snip them off with scissors and they grow back incredibly fast.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Tuesday, 15 April 2014 03:11 (ten years ago) link

idk I'm not sure if this makes any sense but I expect more of a spouse than I do of friends, and this impacts my expectations of friends because I have a spouse? is this fucked up? I dunno it is late and I have take a ton of benadryl because apparently I am allergic to Alabama SURPRISE

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Tuesday, 15 April 2014 03:32 (ten years ago) link

I wanted to clarify that my melodramatic drone post was collateral noise, not caused by this incident.

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Tuesday, 15 April 2014 03:38 (ten years ago) link

Time zones suck. It's always a little bit of a lost and lonely feeling when this thread sits empty and forlorn all day, then when I'm asleep it magically springs back to life, and dies away by the time I'm awake.

I think it's kind of strange to me, the idea of the "lifelong best friend" because I moved so much as a child, went to so many different schools, continued to move so much even as an adult. There are 2 maybe 3 friends I am even still in contact with, from before the age of 25? (And they are not necessarily the people, that had you asked me, at that age, who will I still be friends with in 20 years.) But those contacts are very sporadic, and dependent on me going to another country. Being the one who moves is hard, but I'm sure that being the one who stays behind is hard, too, I'm sure. Because they also change, move in a different direction.

I dunno; this is one of the things that I have been working on with my shrink for the past 2 years. Confronting the expectation that friends should be "permanent" with the reality that every aspect of life is transitory. There are friends you have only while you are in a specific phase of your life, and you both move onto other phases. You have friends that you focused around an activity, like a job or a club or a hobby, and when that is over, the friendship ends. (This has been the hard one for me - when so many of my friendships have been based around bands, accepting the fact that the band breakup often means that the friendship is over, and all the work you put into it is now for nothing, that's hard.)

There may be some truth to the idea that a friend who is too busy with a baby to see you might have post-partum depression, or that a friend who had a divorce 3 years ago might be struggling. Or there may not be. I really would not be too quick to "medicalise" things which may just be life changes. It's nothing you've done wrong, it's nothing they've done wrong, it's just that the shapes of your lives have changed so that they don't quite fit any more.

I grew up in a family that was very far-flung, and people going off to and visiting back from colonies all over the world, and when people were in town for a week or two, you pulled out all the stops to make the visit happen while they were there. But there are many people for whom this is not the usual, that trying to fit in out of town visitors during a constrained amount of time is an imposition and an interruption, and you have moved on, and they have moved on. Someone coming back from out of town with the expectation that "you should have done something more with your life" is kinda... I would feel defensive and distracted being around that person. (Not to mention, if you make a mistake as a nurse on a night shift because you haven't had enough sleep, someone could die.) Sorry, that sounds harsher than I intended. People grow in different directions, have different priorities, and they are allowed to.

It's important, as you get older, to have friends who remember who you both were when you were young. But if the only connection is remembering who you were when you were young, and there is no connection of who you are, now, then that's a different kind of friendship. I'm going to stop typing now, and spend the rest of the morning feeling apologetic about this post.

Branwell Bell, Tuesday, 15 April 2014 09:23 (ten years ago) link

I grew up in a family that was very far-flung, and people going off to and visiting back from colonies all over the world, and when people were in town for a week or two, you pulled out all the stops to make the visit happen while they were there. But there are many people for whom this is not the usual, that trying to fit in out of town visitors during a constrained amount of time is an imposition and an interruption, and you have moved on, and they have moved on.

This is so otm and I am experiencing it now! On my crappy phone otherwise could post a huge post about this whole thing

kinder, Tuesday, 15 April 2014 09:55 (ten years ago) link

Well, I'm glad it resonates because I feel like I'm being a constant stream of negativity ITT, and I don't really like being a stream of constant negativity.

I kinda wanna be like "happy things! gardening! cute boys in suits! sunshine!" and not... like I'm being right now.

Branwell Bell, Tuesday, 15 April 2014 10:23 (ten years ago) link

no BB that was an A+ post, v insightful thank you!!

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 15 April 2014 17:07 (ten years ago) link

BB I liked yr posts and man if you think you're being negative you should see the things I have been thinking but not posting itt. e.g. I have been... very bad at staying in touch with friends, so I've been having ~thoughts~ about the best female friend conversation, but they don't need posted. Also thoughts about my ovaries but yeah TMI and TMwhining so eh.

i.o. do you snip your planted scallions off and leave the white bit in the ground or do you need to pull, snip, soak, replant every time?

I tried to regrow some scallions once but I didn't know what I was doing and left them unattended in water for too long. Plants are a foreign language to me, I need everything spelt out and then I invent some ambiguity in the instructions that nobody else would ever even think of and worry about it. So apologies if the above q is in that category.

the ghosts of dead pom-bears (a passing spacecadet), Tuesday, 15 April 2014 17:37 (ten years ago) link

I'm experimenting with just leaving them in the dirt and cutting off what I need. Seems to be working okay so far. They don't grow back as big as supermarket ones but I assume those are grown under controlled hydroponic conditions etc and let grow for longer.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Tuesday, 15 April 2014 17:46 (ten years ago) link

I just put the leftover stubs in a little water and on the kitchen bench - they just grow and grow!

just1n3, Tuesday, 15 April 2014 18:44 (ten years ago) link

I think it's totally ok to negative-vent on this thread , I'm certainly not complaining

just1n3, Tuesday, 15 April 2014 18:45 (ten years ago) link

Also: the one female friends I hang out with here is probably moving back to the UK soon :/

just1n3, Tuesday, 15 April 2014 18:46 (ten years ago) link

This is making me feel very lucky as I have 5-6 really awesome close female friends. I don't have hardly any male friends anymore!

homosexual II, Wednesday, 16 April 2014 18:53 (ten years ago) link

Green shoots! The first of my greens has peeked its little heads up into the sun!

It never fails to amaze me how I can scatter a bunch of seeds into some dirt, and a few days later, there are shoots and then after a week or two, there is FOOD for free, coming out of the GROUND. This is just one of the best things in the world.

Also, my apple trees are in blossom, which is possibly one of the most beautiful sights I have ever seen in my life. (You can't imagine what I'm going to be like when they start to sprout actual apples.)

Branwell Bell, Friday, 18 April 2014 17:37 (nine years ago) link

I grew up next to an 80-y-o apple orchard and climbed in their gnarled and dying branches as a matter of course, I'm right there with ya.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 18 April 2014 17:39 (nine years ago) link

lol BB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pDTiFkXgEE

kinder, Friday, 18 April 2014 17:42 (nine years ago) link

would it be rude and/or gross to disrupt the idyllic gardening talk with the latest in the date rapist playing my co-op saga?

sarahell, Friday, 18 April 2014 19:20 (nine years ago) link

Nope.

carl agatha, Friday, 18 April 2014 19:28 (nine years ago) link

Yeah, go ahead, I think we can handle both.

Branwell Bell, Friday, 18 April 2014 19:29 (nine years ago) link

So, before I did or said anything about the situation, a mutual friend who is also dating the roommate of another co-op member, contacted the co-op member who was putting on the show (not her bf's roommate), and told him that the date rapist shouldn't be allowed to play and basically said what in orbit and BB said in this thread as reasons why.

I woke up one morning to a voicemail from my friend (the victim) about it -- that the guy putting on the show was a bit skeptical about the mutual friend's accusations and position on what should be done. So I called her, and I told her that I wanted to talk to her first before saying anything, and that I felt gross having that guy play. But I didn't want to broach the situation with the co-op until talking to her to see how she felt about it, and how much she felt comfortable having other people know about the situation, like, if she even wanted her name mentioned. So she said that she would understand if the co-op let him play, but that she would feel better if he wasn't allowed to play. My friend actually goes to shows there and has played there several times, so it isn't just a hypothetical thing.

So I contacted the guy putting on the show and told him that everything the mutual friend said was true, and that I agreed with her, but it should be something brought up to the whole co-op group for discussion, because I could tell that the guy felt uncomfortable making the decision on his own -- because he's one of those guys that doesn't want to be an asshole.

Anyway, it led to a long discussion, where a lot of the unfortunate standard things got said: "Well, was he convicted? He doesn't show up in the sex offenders registry.", "She used to date a good friend of mine and is a total whackjob," "I have had friends get wrongfully accused of rape that got blackballed out of scenes, so I am uncomfortable siding with the victim." "None of us really know what happened, so I don't feel like judging this guy."

sarahell, Friday, 18 April 2014 19:44 (nine years ago) link

I don't even know how to deal with guys that say things like that. I mean, my response is just to start screaming about rape apologists, and obviously that gets absolutely nowhere. Maybe some other people will have some better ideas about how to actually get through to these idiots. I mean, I'm at the point where I just post Shakesville's Rape Culture 101 and leave the conversation if I have to say anything. Because I don't have the energy to counter those kinds of things. But this is a point where they need to be countered and called out for the bullshit that they are, but I don't know how.

Branwell Bell, Friday, 18 April 2014 19:52 (nine years ago) link

Ugh. What was the outcome? Is he going to play?

Also: "because he's one of those guys that doesn't want to be an asshole." Not being an asshole to a date rapist means being an asshole to the person he date raped.

carl agatha, Friday, 18 April 2014 19:54 (nine years ago) link

Also: "because he's one of those guys that doesn't want to be an asshole." Not being an asshole to a date rapist means being an asshole to the person he date raped.

Yeah, exactly! So I told him to contact my friend (the victim), and they apparently had a long conversation about "rape culture" and all of the issues, and while the co-op was deadlocked in terms of yes or no (there were men and women on both sides), the guy decided not to have the date rapist play. So I felt good about it, though less good about some of the things my fellow co-op members said, esp. the one about the victim being crazy. By the time I saw that response, the discussion had progressed and digressed so I didn't end up saying, "Maybe the fact she has mental health issues led to her dating this guy and being in the situation where the rape occurred, but claiming that it was her fault because she was crazy is like blaming the victim of a stray bullet from a ghetto drive-by for being poor."

sarahell, Friday, 18 April 2014 20:02 (nine years ago) link

I'm sorry, I can't even.

But I am glad that the dude is now not playing.

Not just for the victim's benefit, but for the idea that: these kinds of actions have real-life consequences, which will hopefully put the thought into other dudes' heads that this is not a thing to be doing. Even if the victim is "crazy". Sigh. I just... no.

I mean, when you get into the actual statistics, and the idea that women with mental health issues are actually statistically *more* likely to have been raped (possibly because NO ONE WILL BELIEVE THEM) then that whole "~bitches be crazy!!!1~" argument becomes more and more sickening.

Argh. But I am glad that a deadlock meant that the dude is not playing.

Branwell Bell, Friday, 18 April 2014 20:07 (nine years ago) link

Yes, definitely.

carl agatha, Friday, 18 April 2014 20:10 (nine years ago) link

glad there was a good outcome but yeah, that's some poisonous shit to have to wade through to get there

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 18 April 2014 20:16 (nine years ago) link

It was definitely an "easier" decision because no one really knew this guy. I had no idea who he was until my friend told me about the rape. It's harder when the guy is someone more "ingrained" in the scene, like there is one dude who has been around forever, and has put on tons of shows for people, who had assaulted and manipulating and cheated on and just been a total shithead to a previous girlfriend (who is also in the scene), but this dude pretty much gets a pass.

sarahell, Friday, 18 April 2014 20:18 (nine years ago) link

i am so glad you made that call! and sorry you had to listen to a bunch of bullshit. also this:

there is something glamorous about being viewed as a childless Satan-Hitler by intrusive acquaintances.

― sarahell, Monday, 14 April 2014 16:43 (4 days ago) Permalink

is awesome and made me lol a lot.

i love this thread! i just caught up on it and have been feeling a lot of things. i have no irl female friends these days--well, i'm working on making one, but it's early days--and i am historically the flaky friend. i've been cringing at the pain i likely caused a few erstwhile friends along the way. those of you who are being frozen out, i'm sorry, and i recommend you take the same course Abbs is taking, but know that it is entirely possible that your disappeared friend still cares about you, she is just really bad at managing life. not making excuses, just i am absolutely that friend and i can't even really account for myself.

i miss female friends something fierce. i feel like i've kind of earned my female friendless state karmically, but still.

horseshoe, Friday, 18 April 2014 21:17 (nine years ago) link

also carl and LL, i have a friend in Chicago who has told at least one story about how st4rlee kline is a jerk. the friend in question is so kind i have always hated kline as a result.

horseshoe, Friday, 18 April 2014 21:18 (nine years ago) link

the friend in question is also a female friend i have flaked on repeatedly...

horseshoe, Friday, 18 April 2014 21:19 (nine years ago) link

sorry i feel like you guys have become my confessors

horseshoe, Friday, 18 April 2014 21:19 (nine years ago) link

also, io, your remembrance of your friend who is now married and no longer in your life is lovely.

horseshoe, Friday, 18 April 2014 21:23 (nine years ago) link

horse let's hang out. i'm not a non-flake though. i'm so tired.

flatizza (harbl), Friday, 18 April 2014 22:38 (nine years ago) link

yay!

horseshoe, Friday, 18 April 2014 22:44 (nine years ago) link

(not to being tired, though)

horseshoe, Friday, 18 April 2014 22:44 (nine years ago) link

I was going to post something longer and entirely preaching-to-choir about sarah's thing, but, everyone otm, I'm glad he's not playing, and thanks sarah for sticking up for your friend and also talking to her about what she wanted

i am historically the flaky friend. i've been cringing at the pain i likely caused a few erstwhile friends along the way. those of you who are being frozen out, i'm sorry, and i recommend you take the same course Abbs is taking, but know that it is entirely possible that your disappeared friend still cares about you, she is just really bad at managing life.

^^^ v much relating to this

I have basically no female friends now which again is probably just karma for shitty flakiness but I've been doing some early-days-of-female-friendship things w/a coworker and it's been fun and nice but I sense my flaky habits returning and her losing the will to chase. She's suggested the last few outings and I declined the last one just bcz I felt run down and like I needed a weekend of doing nothing I guess (not a great reason but "so tired" here also); I really need to suggest something to do to look like her effort is being reciprocated but I am so bad at thinking of things to do!

(also mostly what we've done is go to see films and really I know v. little about films whereas she keeps up with all the new and arty releases etc)

the ghosts of dead pom-bears (a passing spacecadet), Friday, 18 April 2014 23:05 (nine years ago) link

So contact her and say "let's see a movie, your choice" and everyone's happy?

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Friday, 18 April 2014 23:12 (nine years ago) link

yeah I guess it really could be that simple! hmm, thanks

there's someone at work who I used to be in the same social circles as (though never super close to) long ago, and when she first reappeared in my life she made a kind of cool "surprised to see you're still around, thought you hated everyone" remark which I didn't have the energy to rebut, so I kept my distance, but she was surprisingly warm and friendly and sharing memories after a few drinks at the xmas party

so I've been trying to say hi cheerily whenever I see her around at work (which is not very often, mainly largeish meetings but also some kind of smaller briefing session recently) but she's always with someone else and always seems to cut me off to talk to them. so that's been kind of bumming me out a bit on the missing old female friends tip

the ghosts of dead pom-bears (a passing spacecadet), Friday, 18 April 2014 23:16 (nine years ago) link

flaky friend chapter 9,472

dinner & drinks meetup planned for 5pm with 2 girlfriends. the flaky one sends a bailout text at 3pm
"i havent been feeling good all day"

ok if you woke up feeling shitty just cancel then. but she ALWAYS plays that game of "seeing how she feels" & pushing until the latest possible moment to cancel. this was early for her.

she lives alone, and is kind of a hypochondriac. like if she feels even slightly not-normal then she cant leave the house. we have mutual friends, a gay couple who i have compared notes with extensively...we are just kind of stuck in this shitty pattern with her where she constantly re-dictates the plans that you make, so no plans are ever plans until she actually shows up

i love her, she's awesome company when she shows up, which is why i persist with her. but sometimes it's like GRRR

and ppl getting sick is fine, everyone has that happen. but with her now it's actually more normal for her to bail due to a sick excuse than to ever show up

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 19 April 2014 00:17 (nine years ago) link

that is aggravating.

i am not that kind of flake fwiw. i'm bad at maintaining long-distance friendships. and bad at initiating plans. but i will never cancel on dinner and drinks because i would always rather be at dinner and drinks with friends than doing pretty much anything else.

horseshoe, Saturday, 19 April 2014 00:49 (nine years ago) link

i think i'm bad at initiating plans because i am worried to an absurd degree about suggesting something the other person doesn't want to do...as though they couldn't just say no. it is not a rational worry, to say the least.

horseshoe, Saturday, 19 April 2014 00:50 (nine years ago) link

i think i am bad at long-distance because i dread the phone. why do i dread it so much?

horseshoe, Saturday, 19 April 2014 00:51 (nine years ago) link

ime it's ok to just be honest with newish friends about your flakiness - like, just say 'hey i had lots of fun at {last thing we went to} but i should warn you that i can be kind of flaky, and am bad at planning things, so don't think it's bc i don't wanna hang'.

my closest friends have an understanding that we all might not speak for months and months at a time, but there's no feeling of abandonment.

just1n3, Saturday, 19 April 2014 00:57 (nine years ago) link

xp i hate talking on the ph too, so so so much. the only person i like ph-talking with is one of my BFFs. i don't even like talking on the ph with my husband that much. thank god for skype and facetime.

just1n3, Saturday, 19 April 2014 00:59 (nine years ago) link

i never talk on the phone. i like to text though.

flatizza (harbl), Saturday, 19 April 2014 01:11 (nine years ago) link

we are just kind of stuck in this shitty pattern with her where she constantly re-dictates the plans that you make, so no plans are ever plans until she actually shows up

i love her, she's awesome company when she shows up, which is why i persist with her. but sometimes it's like GRRR

I have two friends that are exactly like this. One has fairly significant mental health issues requiring fairly powerful meds and lives about an hour away now, so I always assume she really wants to keep the plans, but her brain and body require her to change them.

I have the regularly broke friend, the friend that has to work at an ungodly hour on Sunday morning so can't really go out on Saturday night, the friend that always needs me to give her a ride, the friends who are catty about other friends, the friend that is a "lifecoach" who will cancel when she gets a last minute client because she is also regularly broke ... I feel lucky that I have enough close female friends so that I can make a good plan B when something comes up with another one of them.

sarahell, Saturday, 19 April 2014 01:25 (nine years ago) link

that is a great solution imo

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 19 April 2014 01:35 (nine years ago) link

Sorry, I'm still kinda stuck on "glamourous satan-hitler" eating children for breakfast and coming up with this:

https://24.media.tumblr.com/9e130d7615563fe779529e038f2d8889/tumblr_n3x8ygipYK1rd1g7mo1_400.jpg

Branwell Bell, Saturday, 19 April 2014 09:58 (nine years ago) link

For serious, and not just indulging my ladyboner...

I guess this conversation has been good for me, because it's helping me to see it from both perspectives. And realising that I have been a flaker as much as I've been flaked on.

I mean, yeah, I can hold up the whole "bipolar disorder: it's a hell of a mindfuck" as a kind of ~excuse~ for mine own flakiness. (And it is an excuse, not a justification.) That it can be more complicated than "this person just doesn't want to spend time with me any more"; thinking of the places that I have been when I've had to flake out of social plans, and trying to be more accepting when I don't know what's going on in the other person's life.

I guess it's because I tend not to do slow-fades. When I Stop Being Friends with someone, there's either a definitive Falling Out, where we stop speaking, and that's it, the friendship is over. And looking back at these, it's often not even about The Thing which triggered the fight, but just about the fact that our lives were heading in really different directions, we had different priorities that just no longer aligned, sometimes in really catastrophic ways. (e.g. if my friend that I always used to go out for dinner with suddenly gets hugely into dieting and weight watchers and huge massive exercise campaigns and fat-shaming, right around the time that I discover Health At Every Size, you know, this is a very fundamental lifestyle incompatibility issue.) Dropping out of the music scene, and deciding "you know what, going to bars and clubs and staying up all night to watch shitty indie-rock bands really isn't my thing any more" also leads to lifestyle compatibility issues with people to whom that still holds a huge importance. I just haven't yet found another Thing which leads to friendships in the same way because I'm not into... vintage clothing swaps or craft fairs (*shudders*) or whatever else women my age seem to do around here.

I guess that's why it's easier to focus so much on the People That Moved Away, because there's just this artificial end point, rather than the feeling that the friendship just ran its course. I am weirdly good at long distance pen pal intense friendships with people I have never met, and oddly bad at maintaining a long distance email correspondence with people I used to see every week who just moved away. The former is just a different beast, it doesn't have the expectations to bear.

It's always that functional thing, though, with the issue of "who makes the plans" and "who does the inviting". And it's supposed to be a taking turns thing. But after I've invited a couple of times, and been turned down, I really start to feel "the ball is in your court, if you want to see me, you'd suggest something" and then they don't. I guess they don't want to see me after all. I don't blame them. I'm an extremely uninteresting person with very limited interests who is not very fond of speaking to people. I dunno, it's like a game of tennis, where how many times after serving a ball and them not returning it do you give up serving and go wander off and do something else. But also to remember that if someone has served towards me, and I don't return it, the onus is on me to go off and pick up the ball and lob it back to them instead of moaning that I have no friends.

I guess I need to get more interests. Or more gender appropriate interests. Or... I dunno. Stop typing now and go out.

Branwell Bell, Saturday, 19 April 2014 10:55 (nine years ago) link

I mean "have loads of other female friends for a back up plan" is a great back up plan when you have... loads of other female friends?

Where do you get them? Is there a shop where you can go and pick some up? No, I didn't think so.

Branwell Bell, Saturday, 19 April 2014 10:56 (nine years ago) link

I'm sorry.

I really should just learn to shut up. The reason I have no friends is because I'm a boring old woman who does nothing but whinge about how she has no friends. The end.

Branwell Bell, Saturday, 19 April 2014 11:11 (nine years ago) link

I really need to suggest something to do to look like her effort is being reciprocated but I am so bad at thinking of things to do!

"Hey, I really liked hanging out/that movie/doing needlepoint with you. I'm not a great event planner but if you wanted to hang out again, I'd totally be down."

??

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Saturday, 19 April 2014 12:17 (nine years ago) link

Never mind. I won't trouble the thread with my boring loneliness again. I'm boring myself at this point.

I'm out.

Branwell Bell, Saturday, 19 April 2014 12:34 (nine years ago) link

Boring loneliness is the only pal I've got these days -- several days this week were an exception, and I saw a nice handful of people and that was fun. But last night there was a show I wanted to go to, and I was ok going alone bc it was gonna be rill good. Everything said 3 bands, starts at 9. I got there at 9 because literally every other venue I frequent has shows that start at +/- the advertised time, give or take 30 min.

Let me tell you about my evening: I drove way across town, i drank 1 beer and doodled on a napkin while failing at small talk on two separate occasions. 90 minutes passed, the place was filling up and there were lots of groups of friends. i was still sitting there drinking my water. I sneezed, the dj said bless u. i said thank you. A girl who had a long story to tell about her boyfriend's fake lack of ambition asked for my seat and i wound up sitting at the end of the bar 90 minutes after the time i had been led to believe was the starting of the show and thought fuck this. i haven't paid my $10 yet, time to cut my losses and get a good night's sleep instead of being surrounded by these people who can't even be bothered to start a show on time. i'm used to waiting, but i'm not used to everyone being so standoffish. i think that's lame.

anyway, it was a minor disappointment but mainly because i wanted to see this band and i have tried TWO TIMES and both times been hornswaggled (?) by shit like this. Last time it was virtually the same thing. Anyway, since I thought it was an amusing coincidence and it's something i would tell one of my friends, so i will tell this thread. i'm glad to still have y'all to talk to!

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Saturday, 19 April 2014 15:37 (nine years ago) link

also io this is the band (the first one) i was trying to see that time i met you out at chi kev's bar -- remember that? how there were too many people in line and all that? uuuuuugh.

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Saturday, 19 April 2014 15:44 (nine years ago) link

Haha, LL, yes, this is pretty much why I don't go to shows any more (unless they are the sit-down kind with an assigned seat where they start precisely at the time advertised). It sounds so tedious that you end up irritated before the band you want to see even go on.

I spent the afternoon in "my" apple orchard, drawing and reading. Apple blossom smells amazing.

Branwell Bell, Saturday, 19 April 2014 16:28 (nine years ago) link

I mean, I'm accustomed to a wide variety of shows/settings/ degree of lateness but this seemed to bother exactly no one else and I found myself wondering about professionalism. I don't really hold dear to the notion that late/sloppy = romantic fun, esp since its not fun for the musicians who may or may not be responsible for the delay. I just think it's lame. Lotsa far out there shows start on time. So what happened? Why did no one seem to notice?

Anyway, I'm not going out of my way to see a show at this place again.

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Saturday, 19 April 2014 16:42 (nine years ago) link

I don't really hold dear to the notion that late/sloppy = romantic fun

I have spent over a decade combating this with varying degrees of success ... I've said before that before I was a member of this co-op show space, I ran a non-profit arts space that did a lot of music shows, and before that I started and ran another non-profit arts space that did a lot of shows -- anyway, after almost 15 years of this, I know and I'm sorry, and I'm sorry and ... well, that is how I met most of my friends

sarahell, Saturday, 19 April 2014 17:53 (nine years ago) link

yeah -- i sympathize! i wished i was one of the people having fun and talking with friends and not caring that the show was late. only i was just me with my water. i'm trying to meet new people by being there and going out and whatnot, it's just man. it's difficult. i don't know how to begin.

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Saturday, 19 April 2014 18:19 (nine years ago) link

oh i have definitely been in your position! and maybe even worse, i have been the person working the door, or sound, or the person responsible for paying out the bands at the end of the night and closing up, so what I had planned on being a night where I get to leave at midnight, ends up being a night where i am stuck there until 2:30/3am

sarahell, Saturday, 19 April 2014 18:27 (nine years ago) link

like when I go to shows where I'm not working for the venue, i always reassure myself with the joyous thought that if I'm not having a good time, I can leave whenever I want.

sarahell, Saturday, 19 April 2014 18:28 (nine years ago) link

that's part of why i was kinda grousy about it -- the musicians were probably under the impression that they would play at a certain time, and that's work and to have your working conditions be so variable/unpredictable/at the whim of people who may or may not even care about what you're doing is just -- it's wrong! that's why waiting for the place to fill up before the first band goes on seems like it adversely affects the headliner/later bands as well as the people who support them (both patrons and venue support). it's unprofessional. and like i said, i understand that people are in love with the mystique of knowing when the party "really" starts but i dunno. i'm never really on the side of the people who are there primarily for the party, y'know? i wish someone would give me a job -- at least i would have something to do!

i am trying to meet people, and that's got to be worth something, i'm not letting this one incident squash my mojo or anything. i do regret my failure to extend one of the small talk attempts. it's just hard always being the person who talks first because if i didn't, no one would talk to me at all. this is a proven fact! oh well. it's a new day. who cares.

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Saturday, 19 April 2014 18:32 (nine years ago) link

i haven't met anyone outside of work since i can't remember. life is over.

flatizza (harbl), Saturday, 19 April 2014 18:52 (nine years ago) link

Argh, see I always thought that was the job of the promoter (or the club manager or whoever) - to get the bands on in a timely and orderly fashion. But I guess that might actually be a London thing, because most venues have such an early license, if everything has to be over for last call at 11pm, then it's much more urgent to chuck the first band on at 8.30, no ifs ands or buts.

I do remember back in NYC, thinking we were going on at 9pm, and not going on until 10.30, which sucked if you had to get up and go to work in the morning. I mean, no one likes going on to an empty room, but good god, audiences don't learn to come on time, if the bands always go on late!

I dunno; not being facetious, honestly, I'm just wondering if this is a cultural difference? Like, is it really possible to go to shows and meet and befriend strangers? Maybe that's a midwestern thing. Good on you for making overtures, though, LL. I'm just trying to think if I've met people at shows - and I have totally have, but usually, because this is London, they were people who were already known to someone I sort of knew, and was introduced. Having an actual job to do at a club (especially if it's The Door) has, for me, been a better way of actually meeting people.

I really wish I still did that. But on the other hand, being in bars and clubs when you're not drinking is a special kind of torture. I mean, I used to get paid for doing the door at Sonic Cathedral with... a bottle of wine. Which really helps on the talking to strangers front.

Branwell Bell, Saturday, 19 April 2014 19:04 (nine years ago) link

I guess it's kind of weird or else I'd assume it would've been more successful. I go bc I want to see the band that's playing, firstly and mainly. If I'm waiting, I'm open to the idea that I'd have a pleasant conversation with someone about something. It has happened. But at this place, the vibe was not amenable and the 3rdmost band hasn't even started. People weren't even in the venue itself, but crammed in the bar outside. This was the situation 90 min after the announced start time. I had a lot of time to pass.

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Saturday, 19 April 2014 19:13 (nine years ago) link

OK, yeah, talking to people in a bar is way easier, especially if you're kind of crammed in. It's almost rude *not* to.

Branwell Bell, Saturday, 19 April 2014 19:16 (nine years ago) link

bars and clubs here (at least in the SF Bay Area) tend to advertise a time an hour before the bands actually start so that people will show up early and buy drinks, because the bands are really a vehicle for selling drinks, after all. they tend to adhere more to schedules because of last call, and wanting the bands to be done with enough time before last call so that the people seeing the bands can buy more drinks.

the warehouse and house shows are the "worst" when it comes to timeliness because they are operating illegally in the first place, or at least their alcohol sales operation isn't legal. When I took over the arts non-profit in SF, shows were operating on warehouse show time, where they'd be advertised as starting at 8:30 but nothing would happen until 10, and I did as much as possible to enforce a "show has to start no more than 45 minutes after advertised start time" policy. If the bands don't want to play until 10:30, then say the show starts at 10, rather than 9 or 8:30 ... too many people are insecure and don't want to appear "uncool" to their fellow "scenesters."

sarahell, Saturday, 19 April 2014 19:22 (nine years ago) link

That seems really sensible to me!

Branwell Bell, Saturday, 19 April 2014 19:29 (nine years ago) link

Harbl otm

just1n3, Saturday, 19 April 2014 19:47 (nine years ago) link

A lot of the time a late start is more prosaic than "ooh, we're cool and mysterious, nobody knows when we will start", though. Like, if there have been problems with soundcheck, or if the main band has had to travel and had transport/traffic issues. I'd never expect/want the show to start earlier than half an hour after advertised door time, you've got to allow people to turn up and pay in and get settled, but 90 minutes does seem like it's either a technical issue or something weird.

Like, is it really possible to go to shows and meet and befriend strangers?

When I was younger this was how I met most of my friends. But then, I was younger, the gigs were usually sparsely attended, and I almost never struck up conversations on first sight - it'd be "oh, I've seen you at x, y & z so might as well actually talk to you before we get stuck in the awkward recognition head-nod limbo". Nowadays most people I meet at shows are friends-of-friends so it's a bit different.

emil.y, Saturday, 19 April 2014 19:53 (nine years ago) link

shows were operating on warehouse show time, where they'd be advertised as starting at 8:30 but nothing would happen until 10

I guess warehouse things are different, but my experience is limited. I wouldn't mind getting down somewhere for 8:30 and just drinking until the bands come on at 10, but I'd like to know beforehand. Seems like a lot of people request exact stage times on facebook events now, which is probably a little annoying for the promoters (because you don't know if things are going to run smoothly or not) but actually pretty useful.

emil.y, Saturday, 19 April 2014 19:57 (nine years ago) link

i'm glad to get all of these different perspectives -- i had never really thought about it from the bar owner's pov. i guess i should remember who's in charge of/pays for the building, right?

also yeah warehouse things are different -- mostly because they're not establishments with ads and permits and whatnot, right? this is a bar/venue est 2007 or so, a place where someone somewhere expects to make a profit. i had never thought about the priorities of that person before. our priorities are at odds, hence my frustration.

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Saturday, 19 April 2014 20:08 (nine years ago) link

I rarely go to shows any more because of the sheer number of hours you have to stand around for. I don't mind so much if there are a couple of support acts but if I just want to watch the/any band I rarely have any idea what time that will actually be. Worse still are gigs that are 'club nights' leaving the main show til really late - I went to one such one in SF and by about midnight the main act wasn't on or due to go on for ages and it was a week night and I just left through sheer exhaustion.

kinder, Saturday, 19 April 2014 22:33 (nine years ago) link

Yeah it might be weird but I'm grateful for the whole British pubs shutting early thing now because it makes gigs usually finish at a sensible hour.

When they relaxed the opening hour laws a few years ago there was a brief burst of enthusiasm where every pub and venue applied for a late licence and the support bands wouldn't go on until 10 and it was no good for people who had a last bus to catch (me then) or are not good without sleep (me now), but soon everyone got bored of jumping through the late licence hoops I guess and now local gigs are actually p. good at wrapping up by 11:15, which works for me

though there's still often the thing where the publicity says "doors 8" and you arrive at 8:30 and the doors are shut and you have to prop yourself in a corner downstairs avoiding eye contact and trying not to go upstairs every 5 minutes just in case you're missing something (you're not, you'd hear it through the ceiling). and then you finally get let in and you realise there's still nothing to do and now there are no seats and it's too dark to read the local listings mag for the tenth time. that's bad enough for 20 minutes, 90+ is horrible.

the ghosts of dead pom-bears (a passing spacecadet), Saturday, 19 April 2014 22:48 (nine years ago) link

I used to go to shows at this lousy dive called Don Pedro's in Bk and the listings wd be for 9 and no one would play before 11. Because I usually have a book with me, I think I sat on their couch and read for an hour and smoked the rest of the time away and learned not to get there until 11. This was only on weekends bc I had a day job, but they probably ran the same way the rest of the time.

Also I went to shows there and elsewhere for a really long time alone and no one ever talked to me even though I saw the same ppl pretty regularly--I assume the girls weren't interested in me because I wasn't one of them (thin, fashiony, a certain kind of '70s garage glam or sexy punk vibe on display). And the boys weren't interested because I wasn't one of the accepted girls, nor thin, fashiony, sexy, or likely to have a substance abuse/self-loathing problem that would lead me to put out. Felt awkward but liked the music, kept going anyway. Years later, the wheels of social circles spun into place and I connected with a lot of those ppl through mutual friends and realized I didn't like any of them anyway. :)

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Sunday, 20 April 2014 01:14 (nine years ago) link

I'm sorry for your lousy night, LL! Although your telling of it is good and funny, thank you.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Sunday, 20 April 2014 01:22 (nine years ago) link

Yeah, I mean, the whole "late licensing hours" thing really doesn't work in Britain if the public transport doesn't fulfil its end of it. There are always complaints if gigs overrun and people have to leave before the last train/bus. NYC's insane gig hours are supported by a 24 hour public transport system. The rest of the US, I guess you're supposed to provide your own transport (which I guess makes selling drinks harder if everyone is driving, so I guess that's why they make people sit around for hours first.) There is no point in having a gig that goes on until 1am when everyone leaves at 11.30 to catch the train home.

I used to just take a sketchbook everywhere when I went to gigs with unpredictable start times. I went through a pile of sketchbooks yesterday and was astonished to find so many drawings done while waiting for gigs that I had completely forgotten about. (Kinda shitty when drunk people sit at your table and spill beer all over your drawings, though.)

Branwell Bell, Sunday, 20 April 2014 07:36 (nine years ago) link

Hey grlz thred
I don't even try to go to concerts anymore for the reasons listed; I am a punctual L7 with a real lame bedtime.

I thought I would share a funny thing that happened on my vacation to visit my sister, her husband and baby in Tejas – the baby was getting a baby blessing (a Mormon thing).

She'd invited some family to the blessing and lunch after, as well as ~8 married couples, their friends, some of whom had babies, too.

There was a buffet-style lunch – I sat on a loveseat to eat but noticed a couple needed a seat so I invited them to take the loveseat. The husband opted to go to the living room and the wife to the kitchen table, which is when I realized every single couple had done that. "Sorry, I didn't realize men and women weren't allowed to sit together!" I said, and everyone laughed HARD, the kind of hard laugh that comes when everyone is a little scandalized. I stayed in the living room because that much testosterone in one place needs to be broken up by some estrogen, and: they definitely didn't want me there. I would try to participate in their conversation, which was all about Star Wars, so EASY to contribute to, and I was totally ignored. *BLINK BLINK PAUSE* It was amazing and the provocateur side of me enjoyed making everyone so patently uncomfortable simply by sharing innocuous opinions about Lando Calrissian.

My sister later explained that every time they have their friends over, the women hang out in the kitchen, and the guys in the living room, no matter what. Also, that it's kind of a cultural thing for Mormons to not have mixed gender friends, especially between married couples. Her husband is pretty gregarious and open-minded (or he wouldn't like me so well), but after he got married, some of my sister's female friends simply refused to converse with him. "Is it from being overly jealous?" I asked. "More like...overly cautious or careful," she said.

I found it all pretty fascinating!

lord of the files (Crabbits), Sunday, 20 April 2014 15:04 (nine years ago) link

I am a big repper for mixed gender friendships but lately I have fewer and fewer and it is from jealousy issues. I can't hang out with a guy without his girlfriend having a meltdown. It's annoying. It doesn't have to be that way and hasn't in the past but it is the current situation for sure.

lord of the files (Crabbits), Sunday, 20 April 2014 15:05 (nine years ago) link

i applaud your provocateurship and willingness to confront this inane phenomenon. I have had friends give me the "better safe than sorry/caution" line of reasoning and it never sounds any better than it did the first time.

as for the other thing, i've never inspired a jealous tantrum, but i am for sure cautious about taking up someone else's husband's/father's time/energy. as i know well, my friends' company is not always mine to have. that said, i've lost friendships over the years that i think may be attributable to the above line of thinking, which makes me feel like people think i'm some kind of predator. and i am not!

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Sunday, 20 April 2014 16:20 (nine years ago) link

"Sorry, I didn't realize men and women weren't allowed to sit together!" I said, and everyone laughed HARD, the kind of hard laugh that comes when everyone is a little scandalized.

Scandalous handmaidens of Satan have all the fun.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Sunday, 20 April 2014 16:24 (nine years ago) link

Scandalous handmaidens of Satan have all the fun.

<3 !

It was amazing and the provocateur side of me enjoyed making everyone so patently uncomfortable simply by sharing innocuous opinions about Lando Calrissian.

<3 <3 !!

the ghosts of dead pom-bears (a passing spacecadet), Sunday, 20 April 2014 16:34 (nine years ago) link

which makes me feel like people think i'm some kind of predator. and i am not!

Yeah I know! It's wacky. All my friends were boys growing up. Not so now. It's good that I have lots of female friends now but sad that mixed gender friendships can be such a briar patch. OTOH you have some good points.

lord of the files (Crabbits), Sunday, 20 April 2014 16:35 (nine years ago) link

None of my friends were boys growing up -- I didn't know any til 8th gr, and didn't have a purely platonic and real friendship with a boy until i was 19 and met my friend d, who is still my super close friend today. my mr and i both have close friends of the opposite gender/sex/whatever and it has never gotten in the way of any of our lives. to think that people are so scared of it that they physically separate from one another socially is just -- it's a bleak way to look at humanity and a punishment to endure for the rest of your life. it's also a clear sign that we have absolutely nothing in common.

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Sunday, 20 April 2014 16:42 (nine years ago) link

That last point is key to me: When I find myself in a environment where men and women separate (this is almost always split between a domestic chore space and a leisure/tv space, WELL WHADDYA KNOW), I know that I have to get out of there before the inevitable patriarchy-induced meltdown.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Sunday, 20 April 2014 16:45 (nine years ago) link

also there was a portlandia skit that was kinda like that bc the men and women were separated only the women were all like "you're rockin that look" and the men were all "and here dear sir jolly good lol" and it was insufferable
i didn't realize until recently that carrie brownstein studied sociolinguistics

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Sunday, 20 April 2014 16:47 (nine years ago) link

Um, not to be the lone voice of dissent here, but aren't we in a... um, gender segregated space right here?

(I'm not disagreeing that the situation Crabbits describes sounds pretty ridiculous. Just saying that gender segregation isn't always due to... patriarchy.)

Branwell Bell, Sunday, 20 April 2014 16:48 (nine years ago) link

Yeah I appreciated that my brother-in-law at least TRIES to treat the women who visit his house like equals, even if they reject it! He said he gave up after many times of trying to integrate. I liked that he was willing to teach me how to play Ticket to Ride or hang out with me as an equal. But maybe because I am family and 'safe.' Or maybe because I am already going to hell – a joke I made many times, e.g. when I ate their coffee and tea flavored chocolates for them. It got the best, most conflicted laughter.

xp lol

lord of the files (Crabbits), Sunday, 20 April 2014 16:49 (nine years ago) link

good point BB!

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Sunday, 20 April 2014 16:50 (nine years ago) link

Upon finding out that he had started working in the same part of town I did, I said to a male friend, "Oh, we should grab lunch sometime!" and his fiancée, whom I had just met, having been friends with the male friend for awhile, said, "You don't just ask my fiancé if he wants to go to lunch!" I got where she was coming from because there was some weird dynamics wherein the male boyfriend was still carrying a torch for one of my close friends (which, god, everybody just grow up already) so she was pretty insecure about the relationship but it hadn't even occurred to me that I was getting near a line much less crossing one when I asked. Hell, Jeff was there, too.

She stopped talking to me entirely after I declined to fly back to NC from Chicago during my first semester of law school to attend her bachelorette weekend, which was taking place in a cabin and would have involved only me, the friend for whom groom carried a torch, and her sister. But she and the dude are married with a daughter and seem really happy so I think it all worked out for everybody.

carl agatha, Sunday, 20 April 2014 16:50 (nine years ago) link

xp - i will add that my friendships that i assumed ended because of the fear-based line of thinking could also be that the person was super sick of me! i will never know.

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Sunday, 20 April 2014 16:52 (nine years ago) link

My family used to do the post-prandial separation in which women hung out in the kitchen and did dishes while the men went into the living room to watch TV but my grandmother is too old for that shit now and she hangs out with the men. That was 100% due to patriarchy but at the same time, some of my most cherished memories of my family happened during the women's time doing dishes in the kitchen.

But and I'm just being an ornery bugger here, you could argue that this gender segregated space IS due to patriarchy insofar as the fact that we feel a need for the thread is because we want a "safe space" to talk about things without worrying about menfolk chiming in or shutting us down, so the whole need for the dynamic is rooted in patriarchy.

carl agatha, Sunday, 20 April 2014 16:54 (nine years ago) link

Here is my and my friend group from HS – we made albums and movies together, and had all kinds of fun. I miss them dearly:

https://scontent-a-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1.0-9/10150769_10152002227011428_5996624387758037761_n.jpg

Weirdly my best friends were 2 gals and also mutual friends with these guys, but they thought the guys had immature interests and stupid activities, so I hung out with them separately. I didn't get it even then!

lord of the files (Crabbits), Sunday, 20 April 2014 16:54 (nine years ago) link

...The fact that we wanted a women-only space on ilx during the era of the primacy of would smash threads and rape joeks WAS because of patriarchy. I must be misunderstanding you because you are way way smarter than me and this doesn't seem confusing.

xp oh I see carl got there already (she usually does).

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Sunday, 20 April 2014 16:57 (nine years ago) link

We got Ticket to Ride a couple of months ago! It's good!

"More like...overly cautious or careful,"

of... someone flirting? (or accusations of?)
this is so alien to me

kinder, Sunday, 20 April 2014 16:58 (nine years ago) link

Relevant:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BlIjrwmIUAA5V3y.jpg

carl agatha, Sunday, 20 April 2014 17:00 (nine years ago) link

"One minute they were playing tennis together; before I knew what had happened, they were off hiking the Appalachian Trail"

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Sunday, 20 April 2014 17:06 (nine years ago) link

I realized in church the men and women go to separate classes after sacrament meeting (which is not interactive)
So not a lot of chances to make mixed gender friends
Their church is organized so it never happens

xp I liked Ticket to Ride a lot; it was the first 'board game nerd' game I ever enjoyed

lord of the files (Crabbits), Sunday, 20 April 2014 17:09 (nine years ago) link

Me too! I liked it so much I paid for the iphone version of TTR and TTR Europe.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Sunday, 20 April 2014 17:14 (nine years ago) link

Mr veg lived in a house full of women post-college, 90% of his group of friends are still women now. A year or two after we were first married he went to Seattle with his ex-girlfriend (who is a mutual friend). She was in a lesbian relationship at the time, but even the fact that she was his ex, I didn't even think twice about it because they've been friends forever and that's first and foremost how I think of her. But when they were gone I happened to mention their trip to Mom and she did that raised-eyebrow tone of voice that I hate and and then I really resented having to even think about their relationship in such an 'expected' way.

I have quite a few male friends, have gone over to their houses for football games or wrestlemania PPV's and had a few beers while the wives stay in the other part of the house and no-one's ever given me side-eye for it. But I have had situations where people have pointed out that whole Male/Female thing and being 'unseemly' to be on frienship terms with a Man who is Married when I am Married myself. Like, the only person making this a problem is the person seeing the problem and it's NOT A PROBLEM SO SHUT UP.

It's always an awful thing to have it pointed out to you, like it suddenly occurs to you that oh this is a penis/vagina thing which hadn't even crossed your mind until then and it always skeevs me out to suddenly have to think about this male friend in THAT way
*screeching brakes*

Mr Veg thinks of his circle of friends as Friends, not as Women, and I think of my male friends as Friends and not Men...I forget that not everyone does that, and it's a real bummer when it comes up.

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 20 April 2014 17:14 (nine years ago) link

the parties i went to growing up were always gender-segregated in the way Abbs describes her sister's party being. (it was a Muslim community.) it was the way things were and i was used to it, and like Jenny i have fond memories of the women's part of the party. but i remember when Muslim friends of mine started to get married right out of college, things got weird. the assumption that i should drop friendships with dudes when they got engaged...i was really slow to pick up on it. i remember feeling like what even is the point of being all devout and chaste if you assume everybody's up to no good as soon as they get around the opposite sex...or as soon as they get around the members of the opposite sex who are not their wives/fiancees. it also seemed faintly absurd to me the first time i was cast as some Jezebel--it was plainly not my identity. i feel like that was the moment where it began to dawn on me that staying religious was not going to work out for me as an adult woman.

horseshoe, Sunday, 20 April 2014 17:22 (nine years ago) link

being 'unseemly' to be on frienship terms with a Man who is Married when I am Married myself.

Yeah idgi, if 'safety' is a concern you'd think this is the 'safest' possible arrangement? everyone's already committed by law to one person, so who even has to worry, right? otoh the time I got raped I was married and it was when I had a married guy friend over but that's an anomaly.

lord of the files (Crabbits), Sunday, 20 April 2014 17:24 (nine years ago) link

it had nothing to do with any of us being married

lord of the files (Crabbits), Sunday, 20 April 2014 17:24 (nine years ago) link

having said that, my boyfriend is a big flirt and is still good friends with most of his exes and i would be lying if i said i didn't indulge in stereotypical jealousies from time to time. maybe it is my crazed religious upbringing outing! on the whole i think it has been good for me to confront some of that jealousy.

horseshoe, Sunday, 20 April 2014 17:25 (nine years ago) link

yeah see I think with Mr Veg he isn't really all that flirtatious, he just is fun to talk to. if that makes sense. Engaging without being all that 'knowing', I guess is the best way to put it. And that's one of the first things that made me fall in love with him, so for me the fact that he has all these other cool women that we hang out with is more like an affirmation that he IS an awesome dude to hang out with

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 20 April 2014 17:30 (nine years ago) link

xxxp

Oy.

Yeah, echoing all of that--my parents were obsessed with that "appearance of impropriety" stuff and never being alone in a room with someone of the opposite sex. I wasn't allowed to have male friends over at the house (not that I had any but the one time I almost did, I got in trouble for inviting him in). I think I dismissed it as a weird grown-up thing and was therefore surprised when in college, my work manager's wife publicly accused me of trying to break up her marriage by being friends with her husband (who did have a crush on me and ended up cheating on her and leaving her, but I was COMPLETELY unaware of any of that).

In short I guess I'm saying I think we're all on our own in deciding how to navigate this one in our lifetimes.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Sunday, 20 April 2014 17:30 (nine years ago) link

Sometimes women seek out the company of other women because of patriarchy, or because they are actively excluded or dissuaded from inhabiting "male" spaces.

And sometimes women seek out the company of other women because the company of other women is inherently pleasurable.

That's a separate issue from a lot of what is being discussed here: the pressure of coupled women to drop male friendships, etc. But I don't have much to say about that.

Branwell Bell, Sunday, 20 April 2014 17:38 (nine years ago) link

I've told this story before but my mother once made me go with her to our church on a weekday so she could rehearse for a vocal solo with a male accompanist IN THE SANCTUARY OF AN UNLOCKED CHURCH. Even though it's a public place, they couldn't be "alone together" there. And my dad made me go sit in his office while he met with a (female) draftsperson to work on an engineering drawing outside business hours, despite being right in front of a giant picture window that was visible from one of the busiest streets in town. That was fine with me, I just wanted uninterrupted time to read, but I was like, you guys, this is ridiculous.

Then again my town was small enough that someone really might notice that your car and so-and-so's car were parked in the same parking lot together.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Sunday, 20 April 2014 17:40 (nine years ago) link

A lot of my friends growing up were boys (from church) and no-one really cared what we did until one time one guy's family had mentioned to him that another family member had been accused of inappropriate behaviour of some kind when alone with a girl so maybe it would be best not to be alone in a room together to avoid any danger of that (behaviour or allegations of). I guess we hung out in a group most of the time anyway so can't remember if we took much notice.

kinder, Sunday, 20 April 2014 17:45 (nine years ago) link

And sometimes women seek out the company of other women because the company of other women is inherently pleasurable.

This reminds me, I went back to reading The Beauty Myth and finally got through the Culture chapter (which was kind of "duh") and the Religion chapter (which was a little less mainstream but not exceptional) and into the Sex chapter, which immediately went into my brain and hit REBOOT and I still haven't taken in half of it. But right now I'm reminded of:

But we long to be loved the way we were, if we were lucky, as children: every toe touched, each limb exclaimed upon with delight, because it was ours alone, incomparable. As adults, we seek that release from the scale of comparison in romantic love: In the eyes of one's true love, even the most jaded wish to believe, each of us will be "the most beautiful woman," because we will be truly seen and known for ourselves. The beauty myth, though, gives us the opposite prospect ... by having to "present" herself to her lover as "beautiful," the woman remains not fully known. ... Insofar as he will never know her [when she is not "beautified"], the man will never fully know her; and insofar as she cannot trust him to love her with her "beauty" in eclipse, she can never fully trust him.

Sometimes you just want to be encircled with being seen and known and loved with no effort wasted on worrying about beauty or comparison, and in this world for most of us that means a circle of women.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Sunday, 20 April 2014 18:04 (nine years ago) link

oh yah, reminds me of my fave onion article:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/female-friends-spend-raucous-night-validating-the,27446/

lord of the files (Crabbits), Sunday, 20 April 2014 19:21 (nine years ago) link

growing up around a lot of mormons -- all i can say is that mormons are weird.

probably my closest male friend in high school was someone I had been in a playgroup with when we were 2-3 yrs old, so my parents found him completely non-threatening, because their strongest memory of him was fighting with me about who got to wear the kitty tail when we were 3.

sarahell, Sunday, 20 April 2014 21:27 (nine years ago) link

girls rule!
boyz drool!

ledos, Sunday, 20 April 2014 22:07 (nine years ago) link

Shoes for LL:

http://24.media.tumblr.com/a9593937ff753acc762ba1c09ab7b4de/tumblr_mwh9opGeFW1so7nuho1_400.jpg

There was a link to a website with more info about these shoes, but the link leads to nowhere. So they are mystery shoes, but they remind me of you.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 23 April 2014 18:19 (nine years ago) link

those shoes rule

horseshoe, Wednesday, 23 April 2014 18:24 (nine years ago) link

Yeah that is some amazing footwear!!

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Wednesday, 23 April 2014 18:47 (nine years ago) link

yeah holy crap they are rad

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 23 April 2014 20:05 (nine years ago) link

hanging out with women is inherently pleasureable. Nowadays I find my male friendships fading away, and new ones hard to foster - it seems if I am not a sex object to said man, there's no interest on his side in a friendship. If I AM a sex object, he wants to be friends... but will sext me out of the blue at some juncture.

homosexual II, Wednesday, 23 April 2014 22:43 (nine years ago) link

so this year, i got a radical punk dayplanner that includes a "mystrual calendar" - and it turns out my cycle is pretty damn regular -- but only 26 days, as opposed to 28 -- this was after an episode late last year when i was convinced i might be knocked up because my period was late but i had merely forgotten when i had last it

sarahell, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 16:59 (nine years ago) link

*mynstrual not mystrual

sarahell, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 16:59 (nine years ago) link

I track mine on Monthly Info. I have a 27 day cycle with a standard deviation of two days!

tokyo rosemary, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 18:56 (nine years ago) link

I use an app called "My Days" and am surprisingly regular considering I spent years thinking I wasn't. My average length is 28 days. Today is the 17th day in my cycle and I should get my next period on or about May 11th. I love this fucking app.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 20:17 (nine years ago) link

i don't keep track of my cycle at all -- these days i know it's coming from my general mood + the convenient discomfort of mittelschmerz

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 20:22 (nine years ago) link

Me neither! I have to laugh when the doc asks for the date of my LMP, I'm usually like, "Sometime in..the last 3 weeks? I'm pretty sure."

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 20:23 (nine years ago) link

i used to just rely on my bank records for transactions that probably included tampons

sarahell, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 20:26 (nine years ago) link

That's very accountant-y of you.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 20:30 (nine years ago) link

hahahah

sarahell, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 20:31 (nine years ago) link

I jnow when it's coming based on zits sprouting and bad attitude, but its usually 30 days.

homosexual II, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 21:51 (nine years ago) link

i use the period tracker app, and i have a 28 day cycle and my next period will start 2 days into my honeymoon which is also my birthday!! which is only really crappy considering menstrual onset engenders a lupus/MCTD flare every single time for me. so i'll have one honeymoon day of bad pain and fatigue but hey, get used to it, husband. lol.

on the bright side, maybe the stress of marriage and graduation will delay my period.

i feel like this is a very Job Robinson post so id like to say something positive about my life which is that some of my BFFs and i are organizing a knoxville rock camp for girls this summer, and we've got mad funding, equipment, and a location all sorted out - registration for volunteers and students starts soon and i'm v excited.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 30 April 2014 18:34 (nine years ago) link

that is so cool!!
you must have insane organizational skills. that's a lot to pull off!

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Wednesday, 30 April 2014 18:39 (nine years ago) link

Wow! Rock Camp For Girls thing sounds super-amazing! Well done!

(also good luck on yr honeymoon, ugh for day of crappiness and pain)

Branwell Bluebell (Branwell Bell), Wednesday, 30 April 2014 18:56 (nine years ago) link

Rock camp! Awesome!

carl agatha, Wednesday, 30 April 2014 19:56 (nine years ago) link

I want to send Ivy to rock camp. She can probably hold drum sticks.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 30 April 2014 19:57 (nine years ago) link

I wished that rock camp for girls had been around when i was growing up. A friend of mine works for the one here. I am unclear on whether there's a national organization that the regional ones are subsidiaries of or whether they are all independent and are kind of like a franchise or ...?

sarahell, Wednesday, 30 April 2014 20:02 (nine years ago) link

gah no kidding
i was sent to babysitting camp and horse camp :-/

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Wednesday, 30 April 2014 20:05 (nine years ago) link

I was sent to church camp, she announced, much to the surprise of no one.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Wednesday, 30 April 2014 20:13 (nine years ago) link

I went to a week-long Elks camp. I was 12. I had my period. It was terrible.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 30 April 2014 20:15 (nine years ago) link

I was supposed to go to sleep away camp one year but I was too scared to be away from home for that long so I chickened out and never went. lol @ me. I went to day camp every summer and was a counselor there until college though and that was pretty fun but I bet nowhere near as awesome as rock camp.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 30 April 2014 20:16 (nine years ago) link

i got hives at horse camp and everyone thought it was because i was allergic to horses but it turns out that it was just because i hated camp so much that i broke out in hives

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Wednesday, 30 April 2014 20:18 (nine years ago) link

I went to camp to do archery. I think I was about 14 or 15? It was me and a gang of 12 year old boys. I kicked their asses, basically.

Branwell Bluebell (Branwell Bell), Wednesday, 30 April 2014 20:20 (nine years ago) link

parents didn't send their kids to camp where i was from. i think i went to a day camp once? they had a banana slip n slide and we made ice cream from scratch. that's all i remember. Oh and I went to "nerd camp" one summer, which was actually cool.

sarahell, Wednesday, 30 April 2014 20:23 (nine years ago) link

I went to a 7-week girls camp in Maine for many years, lol WASP lyfe

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Wednesday, 30 April 2014 20:34 (nine years ago) link

most summers i would go "actual" camping with my parents at Big Sur for at least a weekend

sarahell, Wednesday, 30 April 2014 20:37 (nine years ago) link

I wished that rock camp for girls had been around when i was growing up. A friend of mine works for the one here. I am unclear on whether there's a national organization that the regional ones are subsidiaries of or whether they are all independent and are kind of like a franchise or ...?

― sarahell, Wednesday, April 30, 2014 4:02 PM (42 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

There's a national coalition that a lot of them are affiliated with, but not all. Ours is and some of us went to the national conference this year which was awesome. The theme was trans allyship and one of the dorms was named Beyonce. We stayed in Rihanna iirc

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 30 April 2014 20:46 (nine years ago) link

Yeah, camp was not a thing where I grew up either. The Elks camp was because my best friend's dad was the president of the Elks or some shit so we got to go for free.

There were "day camp" things but those were really just classes and band camp, but that was just summer band practice. Camp. The word has no meaning.

xp omg

carl agatha, Wednesday, 30 April 2014 20:48 (nine years ago) link

I'm really focused on making our rock camp help attendees break through gates that keep girls and women out of music, or parts of music production that girls are kept out of sometimes - things like gear, electronics, recording, tech stuff. I think that's so important and overlooked. I also want to have a women's camp or series of workshops to teach skills in these areas to grown women who feel intimidated by tech/gear stuff

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 30 April 2014 20:51 (nine years ago) link

that is so awesome

horseshoe, Wednesday, 30 April 2014 20:52 (nine years ago) link

Oh, I'm so glad. Because that was so often (at least in my generation) treated as some kind of a barrier to female musicians. And I was lucky in that my Dad was a soundman, and he taught me to have no fear of the tech/gear stuff. But I think it's really important to teach young women "this stuff is not intimidating; this is how you do it!" And encourage that sense of experimentation without that whole oft-repeated "this stuff is scary; ergo, girls will be rubbish at it" load of crap, so that they end up getting familiar with it, and putting in the time to mess around with it and learn it.

Branwell Bluebell (Branwell Bell), Wednesday, 30 April 2014 21:47 (nine years ago) link

I have never been to an anything camp because that is not really a Britishes thing. Only the Girl Guides/Boy Scouts/etc do that over here, and the local Brownies which I was in v briefly never went camping. I did go to a one-night trek-and-hostel trip with a Christian youth group when I was 12 and it was horrible: my period + mean gurlz who laughed at me all weekend + couldn't sleep bcz massively uncomfortable dorm bed with bright lights and snoring

My coworkers' kids all go to "rock school" every week and I am jealous, nothing like that back in my day. I like to pretend maybe if rock school had existed I could've been someone! but it does sound like it is a lot of boys trying to be ~hard~ so I probably would not have got on enormously well (my life: "hi I am into boyish things why will none of these boys talk to me"), so I think roxy's rock camp for girls is super awesome and I hope many girls will get the courage to start kickass bands from it

the ghosts of dead pom-bears (a passing spacecadet), Wednesday, 30 April 2014 21:50 (nine years ago) link

we started a short lived weekend workshop version of it several years ago, and it didnt last for various reasons - we've been building and planning til we can do a full fledged camp which is now happening. anyway, one band formed out of those workshop days called the Pinklets, and they still (3 or so years later) gig regularly, have tons of songs, and are completely overbooked constantly. they are really good, too! all about 10, i'd say. the drummer might be 8.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 1 May 2014 20:55 (nine years ago) link

That makes me so so so very happy.

carl agatha, Thursday, 1 May 2014 20:58 (nine years ago) link

with their new bassist https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B75rz_b5ey0

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 1 May 2014 21:00 (nine years ago) link

is that their original song or a cover?

man they are so cute -- the singer is great! so expressive.

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Thursday, 1 May 2014 21:03 (nine years ago) link

original, all their songs are original and they are all good!

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 1 May 2014 21:05 (nine years ago) link

this song gets stuck in my head all the damn time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASX53cJeKn8

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 1 May 2014 21:07 (nine years ago) link

that is a damn fine chorus imo

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 1 May 2014 21:07 (nine years ago) link

wow
talent AND good fortune (their parents sound awesome)

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Thursday, 1 May 2014 21:08 (nine years ago) link

their parents are really great. they are really big on protecting them, not letting them be exploited or get burned out. they don't let them promote on facebook or have a fan page, etc. they don't want it to stop being fun for them, which i think is admirable

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 1 May 2014 21:10 (nine years ago) link

i mean obv they are big on protecting them, they are their parents. lol. but big on protecting them from the negative aspects of the spotlight, is what i mean

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 1 May 2014 21:10 (nine years ago) link

totally
it's funny how easy it is to make something not fun anymore too, esp at that age (all the ages really, at least afaik)

Mayor Manuel (La Lechera), Thursday, 1 May 2014 21:11 (nine years ago) link

bands have a high turn around on that, even for adults. lol.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 1 May 2014 21:13 (nine years ago) link

Those songs were great!

carl agatha, Thursday, 1 May 2014 21:21 (nine years ago) link

I loved this: Gabourey Sidibe’s Wonderful Speech From the Ms. Foundation Gala

plance (Crabbits), Saturday, 3 May 2014 19:35 (nine years ago) link

"So, okay, we're back in fifth grade, and I just had been rejected by 28 kids in a row. And I was sitting alone at my desk, with an empty Ziplock bag, crumbs in my lap, and I was at this great party that I had waited for all week. I waited all week for this party that I wasn't invited to. And for some reason I got up, I sat on my desk, and I partied my ass off. I laughed loudly when something funny happened. And when Miss Lowe put on music, I was one of the first ones to get up and dance. I joined the limbo, and ate chips, and drank soda, and I enjoyed myself, even though no one wanted me there. You know why? I told you — I was an asshole! I wanted that party! And what I want trumps what 28 people want me to do, especially when what they want me to do is leave. I had a great time. I did. And if I somehow ruined my classmates' good time, then that's on them. "How are you so confident?" "I'm an asshole!" "

plance (Crabbits), Saturday, 3 May 2014 19:36 (nine years ago) link

<3

kinder, Saturday, 3 May 2014 19:45 (nine years ago) link

i love that whole speech so much!

seriously, THIS GUY (daria-g), Sunday, 4 May 2014 00:14 (nine years ago) link

I do, too! Amy Schumer's speech at the same event is getting a lot more attention (from my friends (on facebook (so scientific))) and it's not nearly as good; her's is like "a guy tried to fuck me once in college and he didn't even like me and he couldn't get a hard on! live life to the fullest and don't feel ugly!" NB tho I really don't dig Schumer's schtick.

plance (Crabbits), Sunday, 4 May 2014 16:36 (nine years ago) link

i srsly got tears in my eyes just reading it when she got to the part about giving the fist-in-the-air to the picture every day

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Sunday, 4 May 2014 17:08 (nine years ago) link

also that story totally reminded me of abbott's story about intentionally staying in the "men only" room of that one party and insisting on having a good time and talking about whatever she wanted to

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Sunday, 4 May 2014 17:09 (nine years ago) link

My friend sent me this link saying "I was looking for saguaro lamps on etsy and found this very NSFW thing that made me think of you"
https://www.etsy.com/listing/186933292/leluv-7-inch-cactus-dildo-double

Like, that kind of warms my heart. FEAMEL FRANZ RULE!!

plance (Crabbits), Friday, 9 May 2014 13:32 (nine years ago) link

In other news pertinent to this thres, last night I had a dream that I was getting a checkup at my PCP. He asked me about my nexplanon implant I got a few months ago. "Did you put in the batteries when it got inserted?" I looked in my purse and found a baggie w/two teeny tiny batteries. "Is it too late to put them in now?" I asked, and he just snorted, like "oh you poor lady." I woke up like "nooo I'm sooo pregnant"

So it's been the norm lately to wake up at 4 a.m. from an anxiety dream but at least this one wasn't work related??

plance (Crabbits), Friday, 9 May 2014 14:15 (nine years ago) link

haha -- i woke up at 5am DYING for a slice of pizza from the pizza place at the mall where my friends and i used to hang out
like i was rabid for pizza
then i went back to sleep for an hour

end of the year is so hard and stressful -- i really work at not letting it get to me, and it still gets to me

funch dressing (La Lechera), Friday, 9 May 2014 14:27 (nine years ago) link

You need pizza!

carl agatha, Friday, 9 May 2014 14:36 (nine years ago) link

gah i need pizza so bad
there's a place on the way to work that makes similar pizza to the mall pizza
maybe i will just pick up a pizza on my way there
…this is starting to sound like a great idea!

funch dressing (La Lechera), Friday, 9 May 2014 14:55 (nine years ago) link

pizza pizza pizza

funch dressing (La Lechera), Friday, 9 May 2014 14:55 (nine years ago) link

It's Friday! Friday is pizza day. You've had a long week and you deserve a pizza treat.

I have been making pizza on Friday's because Friday is TOTALLY pizza day but we're getting a Homemade Pizza Company pizza tonight and I am super excited. PIZZA.

carl agatha, Friday, 9 May 2014 15:31 (nine years ago) link

My own homemade pizza game is getting pretty tight, though. I'm currently mastering toppings but am working my way up to my own crust.

carl agatha, Friday, 9 May 2014 15:32 (nine years ago) link

I Went to a pizza party last weekend at ytth's boss' place and it was delicious! We had like four different kinds.

just1n3, Friday, 9 May 2014 15:38 (nine years ago) link

I want to try pizza on the grill (now that I am reunited with the grill) but first I have to find every last kitchen thing that we put in storage. Jeeezus why was a not more organized about this--every box I open has contained everything EXCEPT anything I want/need in the short term.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 9 May 2014 17:57 (nine years ago) link

Like I have to start my internship tomorrow and atm it looks like I will be doing so in a bikini and cowboy boots???

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 9 May 2014 17:57 (nine years ago) link

by tomorrow I mean next week but still

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 9 May 2014 17:58 (nine years ago) link

Made a homemade pizza for lunch and ate it while it stormed. Perfect!

*tera, Friday, 9 May 2014 22:08 (nine years ago) link

is it worth investing in a pizza stone?

just1n3, Friday, 9 May 2014 22:30 (nine years ago) link

Yes! If you love making pizza...I had one and miss it.

*tera, Saturday, 10 May 2014 04:50 (nine years ago) link

there is one on my wedding registry, ive wanted one for 10000 years but its the kind of thing that you never want to buy for yourself cause its boring to buy

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Saturday, 10 May 2014 16:19 (nine years ago) link

What's a good bathing suit to wear when you are out of the bikini club that still looks cute not like you are trying to hide, youthful etc...ugharghhhhhh!???

I fucking hate swim suits now. Use to be so easy, had tons of them, never a thought, now it's an ordeal, want to live wear no one can ever swim. I actually feel better naked but swim suits take your body out of context and ugh.

*tera, Sunday, 18 May 2014 18:13 (nine years ago) link

swim suit... i mean.

*tera, Sunday, 18 May 2014 18:21 (nine years ago) link

You mean you don't want to wear a bikini? I would go with something vintage/retro looking. Go for 40s glam. It provides coverage if that's what you want but you can swan around like a fabulous starker.

carl agatha, Sunday, 18 May 2014 18:45 (nine years ago) link

Bwahahaha STARLET

carl agatha, Sunday, 18 May 2014 18:45 (nine years ago) link

http://www.modcloth.com/shop/search?keyword=Bathing+Beauty+One+Piece?

Maybe something like this?

carl agatha, Sunday, 18 May 2014 18:48 (nine years ago) link

You could also look for a bikini that's got a more modest cut with that same retro look.

http://www.modcloth.com/shop/twopiece-swimwear/fave-denim-swimmies-two-piece-swimsuit

Anyway, I feel you. I'm not too worried about swimsuits but after years of a solid truce, I'm feeling some animosity towards my body. Part baby, part getting old, part catching every cold that comes within 50 yards of me, part some kind of hormone induced joint pains. Bleh.

carl agatha, Sunday, 18 May 2014 18:54 (nine years ago) link

I have a halter neck tank-top bikini thing with kind of shortie shorts. Thought it would look really mom-ish but it's cute. I've never felt comfortable in a normal bikini although i'm happy with my body - just feels like i'm walking round in me underwears.

kinder, Sunday, 18 May 2014 19:07 (nine years ago) link

I have the one piece that Carl linked to and it's very cute but I think it runs a bit small just FYI.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Sunday, 18 May 2014 23:13 (nine years ago) link

i have not worn a swimsuit in over a decade.

sarahell, Sunday, 18 May 2014 23:17 (nine years ago) link

i have had the same cheap JC Penney swimsuit for 10 years & as long as it keeps stretching enough to fit me, it'll do fine. vintage style full coverage low leg-cut with tummy panels etc

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 19 May 2014 01:36 (nine years ago) link

aka grandma swimsuit if you wanna go there lok

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 19 May 2014 01:36 (nine years ago) link

Thanks, Gals! My fave seems to be the Modcloth Marilyn Monroe looking suit.

I owned a '60s vintage one piece that was incredible! But I was stupid (20 something) and cut it in half and turned it into a high waisted two piece. I would LOVE to have that suit today, in either incarnation in fact.

The day got worse when I ventured into American Apparel and tried on the "Skater's Dress" with low cut sides. I was super curious and on days when I had strong body positivity (which was one day last month) I thought I could sport this with a simple bra...all summer. Uh....no. All day today I have felt like I am heading towards midlife or something. I also tried on high waisted jeans, one pair. Shot out of that dressing room so fast.

I realize it is because I am an actual mom now that things that are momish bug me (my midlife symptom) because I was embracing styles I should be embracing now, years ago. Anyway, this is all a bigger mess in my head than I am letting on...the whole aging, no working out n months and months, living in a college town etc...I feel I need to cross over to a better place in my head and once I do, smooth sailing. Starting with a return to some sort of exercise, maybe Callanetics.

It's funny because at 18 I had a similar experience. All my friends started wearing bikinis and I loved my one piece, felt sexy in it. They laughed at me. I tried a bikini and felt naked. I bought one and wore it with denim shorts (in the original high waisted/ cropped shirted era) and slowly worked my way into the comfort of a bikini. Now it's time to return to the one piece.

*tera, Monday, 19 May 2014 06:44 (nine years ago) link

kinder: I looked for a tankini with boy short combo but never found one :(

*tera, Monday, 19 May 2014 06:47 (nine years ago) link

Tera have you looked at http://www.swimsuitsforall.com

just1n3, Monday, 19 May 2014 15:24 (nine years ago) link

Oh haaaayyy actual plus-sized models!

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Monday, 19 May 2014 15:25 (nine years ago) link

Working out is so key to my happiness. I had to let go of my membership at the fancy gym near our apartment because I stopped teaching and no longer qualify for their generous teacher discount and can't afford it anymore. I try to make up for it by taking a lot of walks/bike rides, and that is helpful but it's not the same as 45 minutes of sweating my face off on the elliptical machine (running is out of the question as I have terrible knees, and also I fucking hate running, in case anybody was going to suggest it). I hope you can find time to exercise and I hope it makes you feel better, tera!

carl agatha, Monday, 19 May 2014 15:48 (nine years ago) link

gah, me too -- i was just thinking that i exercise/stretch/move around in order to feel good. exclusively, really. it helps me stay limber, energetic, and positive.
my exercise routine got me through this awful winter for sure. also it was fun to develop a workout routine. it occurred to me that i tend to just like to do things my way and that was a concept i needed to apply to exercise as well. it worked!

this is totally in response to carl's post -- the swimsuit body stuff is a conversation i avoid entirely these days! like even online! if i start to go down the road of spending my time typing about how i feel about my body in a bathing suit, it leads nowhere. better to do something else. nothing personal! just a thing i need to do in order to feel alright.

funch dressing (La Lechera), Monday, 19 May 2014 15:57 (nine years ago) link

except i did like that slim goodbody one piece!

funch dressing (La Lechera), Monday, 19 May 2014 15:57 (nine years ago) link

Thanks for that website!

I did start walking hills to get my hear rate up and then Callanetics for an hour. Now on day 2 and feel better. I did Callanetics 14-28 and then stopped. It was my religion all those years and worked great. Once I started living with someone else it was harder to keep up. Decided to commit to it and see where it takes me.

*tera, Tuesday, 20 May 2014 17:35 (nine years ago) link

*heart

*tera, Tuesday, 20 May 2014 17:35 (nine years ago) link

I'm going to bust out my Jane Fonda workout record.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 20 May 2014 18:03 (nine years ago) link

She reminds me of Jazzercise and that reminds me of Fosse...high waisted pants and leotards also...Fosse.

*tera, Tuesday, 20 May 2014 19:05 (nine years ago) link

Remember Denise Austin? I had a few of her videos, too.

I wonder if Netflix or Amazon have anything streaming... we're about to get new downstairs neighbors and maybe they would enjoy listening to me jazzercise.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 20 May 2014 19:07 (nine years ago) link

I used my years of dance classes and aerobics vids to make up my own routine and it's like 500% more fun than any video!

funch dressing (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 May 2014 19:11 (nine years ago) link

oh man Mum had a pile of Jane Fonda, Denise Austin, Jazzercise, all the hits on vinyl when we were kids. And she had this awesome aerobics video called Aerobics Oz Style and this gawky man in Australia flag jogging shorts was the instructor

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 20 May 2014 19:20 (nine years ago) link

I love Denise Austin!

I wish Callanetics vids weren't so boring. I own one DVD but never use it, I know the workout. The pilates videos I had were also boring.

I wanted to buy this thing:
http://www.fluidity.com/
Been looking for a good price or giveaway on Craigslist and at garage sales.

*tera, Tuesday, 20 May 2014 19:38 (nine years ago) link

I was doing K. LaShae's vids all last year but stopped in August because we moved and the new place had no space for workouts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dJkiRE0ymw

They were effective...

*tera, Tuesday, 20 May 2014 19:44 (nine years ago) link

I LOVE KEAIRA LASHAE.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Tuesday, 20 May 2014 19:50 (nine years ago) link

Hi, girls.

Wondering if it would be OK to suggest a line of discussion I feel is pretty appropriate for this thread? It came up on another thread yesterday, and has been rattling around in my head, but the original thread seems to have just disintegrated into puns and "jokes bruv". BUT, it involves talking around issues of food-policing, body-shaming, food as control issue, food as means of boundary-setting or boundary-violating. And I recognise that this line of discussion might be upsetting or even potentially triggering to anyone struggling with body issues or disordered eating. But I also recognise that this is something that is very gender slanted, so I thought this thread was more appropriate than others.

Would anyone like to talk through this stuff with me? Or would anyone really rather not discuss this stuff here? I'd be OK with taking this stuff elsewhere.

It's talking about the stuff *behind* the jokes on the "bread shaming" thread. That this is something I know exists, in my life (and also has been confirmed that it's not just me, it happens in other people's lives, from reading around the "fat-o-sphere") that family members, acquaintances, even complete strangers all feel like they have a right to comment on or even police one's food choices, if you are a woman living life in a larger body. But also about how exercising control over one's own food choices (even food choices that may seem spurious to others, like veganism or gluten free lifestyles) can be a way of exercising control that one feels one has "lost", over one's body or one's life or other aspects of it. And about other people's boundary violations with regards to one's food choices (there was a story on that thread which pretty much horrified me, and a couple of other people called it out, but at the same time, it's brought up a whole raft of unpleasant acts of food-based aggression, and what it's like to be on the receiving end of it) being an act of control or aggression. Sometimes it feels like my life is a steady stream of trying to sort people into "safe" and "unsafe" but that's a really giant guarantee of "unsafe" status.

Anyway, please forgive me if this is an inappropriate place to raise these discussions, but I just thought I'd throw that stuff out there, and see if there were any takers here.

Branwell with an N, Thursday, 22 May 2014 09:05 (nine years ago) link

I think this is an awesome place to discuss it.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Thursday, 22 May 2014 13:10 (nine years ago) link

"even complete strangers all feel like they have a right to comment on or even police one's food choices, if you are a woman living life in a larger body"

- When I was a chubby preteen I was walking down the street during a summer on Fire Island with two friends who were also eating ice cream cones. Some 20-something brodouche walked by us, looked at me and said, "You don't need that, sweetheart".

- The night before I graduated from college I was drinking with my roommate at my favorite bar (miss you Spring Lounge) and enjoying a pint (or several) of Guinness. While my roommate went to the bathroom a man called George came over and told me that he approached me because I was the cutest girl in the place, a little chubby but definitely the cutest one there. He then proceeded to tell me I should probably drink light beer or no beer at all and gave me unsolicited exercise advice.

Of course there's the other side where when I've been very skinny and people feel the need to tell me to eat more or just have some fries or whatever. It's all fucking maddening to be honest.

I also haven't eaten meat in 20 years so I've gotten a lot of shtick for that over the years.

In any event this plus a bunch of other bullshit has led me to think of all food in terms of good or bad and ugh. I think it really is the worst when it comes from total strangers though. I'm sorry but, excuse me? Etc.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Thursday, 22 May 2014 13:18 (nine years ago) link

I'm interested in such a discussion. I was delighted by the endless parade of bread puns, don't get me wrong, but this is a topic that is dear to my heart.

I have no tolerance for people commenting on what I'm eating, unless we are dining together and it is along the lines of "That looks delicious/what do you think of your meal" kind of way. Before the pun train left the station in the bread thread, I was going to say something about how as a busy and important fat woman, I have dared to do things like walk down the street while eating a 7-11 hotdog, which talk about facing fears straight on. I felt like I was daring the world at large to say something to me. Nobody ever did, though, or if they did I didn't notice since if I'm in a situation where I'm eating a 7-11 hot dog while walking down the street, I have other more pressing things on my mind such as not passing out from low blood sugar or whether I'm going to make it to where ever I'm going on time. Which in the end is a good lesson for me - most people are not paying anywhere near as much attention to me as I am afraid they are.

The office is a hard place for me, especially where I work now since there is a lot of high achieving, status-consciousness there, plus the male dominated (at least at the upper management level) field of big law, plus those horrid workplace wellness initiatives and employer-sponsored Weight Watchers meetings that reinforce this culture. I eat at my desk a lot because I'm busy and I have myself convinced that the person who sits across the hall from me (our offices have one glass wall that is frosted with a striped pattern so you can see people but not super clearly) is judging me, even though he probably does not even notice/care what the hell I'm doing. Not to mention feeling like some kind of slovenly gross person if I put cream in my coffee right there in the break room where everybody can see me. There's a lot of diet talk and women bonding through hating their bodies there, too, which I refuse to participate in, but it's always there.

I admit to looking askance at people who embrace restrictive eating for non-medical reasons, at least if those people are touting their particular restrictive regiment as a cure-all or the One True Way to health or better than your average person eating a 7-11 hot dog. I don't tell those people what I think of their eating habits, because it's none of my business, but I definitely have very little patience for it and I 100% definitely in no way want to talk about it with them.

carl agatha, Thursday, 22 May 2014 13:22 (nine years ago) link

Ha, that bread shaming thread just reminded me of these two dancers I lived with at NYU who quite literally ate nothing but chicken and steamed broccoli. I was poor and stoned most of the time so I ate a lot of pasta. They couldn't handle it at all and would constantly make comments like "OMG you're eating pasta AGAIN?". I started to make a point of only eating in the common areas and saying things like "Yeah, dosn't it look amazing?". Oh they were horrible.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Thursday, 22 May 2014 13:24 (nine years ago) link

just to clarify, not vegetarianism or even veganism probably since I am a super conflicted meat eater (hot dogs notwithstanding) and am secretly very shamed of my own meat eating and plus aside from one college roommate who was a complete asshole anyway, I've never actually met that proselytizing straw-vegetarian that meat-eating people are always going on about. If anything, the vegetarians I know (I don't think I know any vegans?) are too apologetic about their food choices.

carl agatha, Thursday, 22 May 2014 13:26 (nine years ago) link

E that reminded of two women I knew in college who were roommates. They were both right on target as far as mainstream beauty norms were concerned - blonde with oodles of fabulous curly 90s hair, slim, buxom but not too buxom - and were both rushing different sororities and had this unacknowledged hardcore competition thing with each other. I was hanging out with one of the roommates - V - and she was telling me that the other one was always eating raisins because she thought it was a health snack and V was like, "She doesn't know that raisins have a TON of calories and I'm not going to tell her! I'm just going to watch her get fat and not know why!"

I wanted to be like, You both have the most fabulous hair I have ever seen, you need to stop caring about what the other one eats and start a gang like the Pink Ladies but centered around your hair.

carl agatha, Thursday, 22 May 2014 13:35 (nine years ago) link

http://31.media.tumblr.com/3fcc548579a3fbfe56e9532de7d0bb0a/tumblr_myrob0oAsg1qbagneo1_1280.png

Could have been so beautiful...

carl agatha, Thursday, 22 May 2014 13:40 (nine years ago) link

"I wanted to be like, You both have the most fabulous hair I have ever seen, you need to stop caring about what the other one eats and start a gang like the Pink Ladies but centered around your hair."

Ha! Yes!

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Thursday, 22 May 2014 13:41 (nine years ago) link

There's a lot of diet talk and women bonding through hating their bodies there, too, which I refuse to participate in, but it's always there.

this this this this

tokyo rosemary, Thursday, 22 May 2014 14:13 (nine years ago) link

But also about how exercising control over one's own food choices (even food choices that may seem spurious to others, like veganism or gluten free lifestyles) can be a way of exercising control that one feels one has "lost", over one's body or one's life or other aspects of it.

Food control is an area where I was trying to exercise my compassion, because finding a place to have quality brunch with a vegan is no walk in the park. Then I got a whole bunch of food issues dropped on me, for my sins, probably. If increasingly narrowing their food choices and patrolling their life for things they can control helps people to deal with their demons and maintain balance, bless them.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Thursday, 22 May 2014 14:18 (nine years ago) link

Never realized how many rings Howard wore.

tokyo rosemary, Thursday, 22 May 2014 14:21 (nine years ago) link

She wears a lot of rings! And no mascara. God I love her.

carl agatha, Thursday, 22 May 2014 14:23 (nine years ago) link

Oh now I long for a Claudette Wyms, Anita VanBuren, Kay Howard crossover crime drama.

carl agatha, Thursday, 22 May 2014 14:27 (nine years ago) link

Sorry, getting off topic.

I was trying to think of times that people have actually shamed me for eating something and I once went out for late night drunken diner breakfast with this male friend of mine (I probably had a little crush on him at the time, too) and we sat there eating our omelets and he suggested I get egg whites next time and try exercising more because "guys like girls who glow." Which in hindsight was probably twisted dude-code for "I like you but am too much of an asshole to date a fat woman so maybe lose weight so I'm not so conflicted about my feelings."

carl agatha, Thursday, 22 May 2014 14:31 (nine years ago) link

Also there was the really strange secretary at an old job who used to poke her head into my work area and ask me detailed questions about what I was eating. She was especially curious about this crazy substance I often ate called "yogurt." She was so weird. I almost miss her.

carl agatha, Thursday, 22 May 2014 14:32 (nine years ago) link

People comment on the food I'm eating/cooking more than I would like. It's usually positive, or faux-positive (look at all of the vegetables, aren't you a healthy little one) and I don't like it at all. Can't say I need to discuss it beyond that, really. People should really stop opining about the amount/quality/nutritional value/nature of other people's food.

When I was a kid, I was a really picky eater, but I was pretty content to eat my bowl of noodles with no fanfare. My dad, however, frequently made it known (visibly and audibly) that he was exasperated with my pickiness and I always thought that was mean-spirited of him. Now he won't stop talking about my childhood eating habits and brags to strangers about my cooking, which is just as bad and embarrassing for me.

Best to just talk about other things imo.

funch dressing (La Lechera), Thursday, 22 May 2014 14:40 (nine years ago) link

Oh yeah I do get the faux-positive commentary a lot. I don't like it either.

carl agatha, Thursday, 22 May 2014 14:42 (nine years ago) link

I think I'm oblivious to people being faux anything about my food--I'm not sensitive about it. But macro conversations ABOUT food-shaming blame women almost immediately, which I'm with Branwell on. PS if someone put gluten into my gluten-free food I would have blood in places there shouldn't be blood, so that directly puts my health at risk and that is a violent act.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Thursday, 22 May 2014 15:01 (nine years ago) link

Yeah that is straight bullshit. I might roll my eyes at somebody's gluten free eating if they are doing it for bandwagon/"clean eating" purposes but I would never intentionally subvert somebody's eating restrictions, self-imposed or otherwise. That's horrible.

(TBF the person on the thread who said he did that later said he was kidding.)

carl agatha, Thursday, 22 May 2014 15:07 (nine years ago) link

Saw that. Don't care. Still not funny.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Thursday, 22 May 2014 15:09 (nine years ago) link

I'm really, really sick of "HAHA it was only LOLS!" being used an excuse for general douchey behaviour, whether it's racism, sexism or ~POLICING YOUR FOOD CHOICES~ crap. I just have zero tolerance for that kind of thing any more. IO is right; intentionally causing someone harm like that is a violent act, no matter what their reasoning.

Sorry, I did that thing where I ask a Really Big Question on a thread, then disappear for several hours. Went off to therapy and guess what, boundaries / control / food issues was a big, big, big sack of emotional vomit there, so, well.

I'm going to have a think and eat some pasta (LOL, ENBB, I am going to think of your "aggressive" pasta eating at dancers while I do it) and come back and respond and talk and try to explain what I was on about.

Branwell with an N, Thursday, 22 May 2014 17:44 (nine years ago) link

a waiter in SF actually said 'you go girl' when I ordered pork belly
I... didn't really know how to react

tbh no-one ever comments on my food and I'd find it really bizarre if I saw it happening a lot. Because it's a really weird thing to do! Says more about the commenter imo. I guess in the workplace it can be a lazy way of starting conversation? but only up to a point...

kinder, Thursday, 22 May 2014 17:55 (nine years ago) link

I find my stubborness really works overtime in food-shaming situations. Like if someone brings donuts into work, there's a subset of coworkers who will take a knife and cut off like an eighth of a donut and leave the rest. But they have to do it with a loud 'ooh yes I only want a little I'm being good today' and then all the other sheeple will suddenly feel bad for wanting a whole donut and then everyone's carving off stupid tiny slices so my inner 5 year old goes into a rage and deliberately reaches past them for a whole donut

They shame each other into doing it, I see them do it a lot, and it drives me crazy. Eat what you want! Don't narrate for everyone around you if you're going to have a small portion. Just have a small portion and own it. but don't make the person who wants/needs to eat a full portion feel bad. Everyone can eat however much or little they want and I will not side-eye anyone for it. But publicly announcing for purposes of shaming drives me INSANE.

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 22 May 2014 18:26 (nine years ago) link

idk if that's off or on-topic but it was on my mind

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 22 May 2014 18:26 (nine years ago) link

HIGH FIVE

carl agatha, Thursday, 22 May 2014 18:27 (nine years ago) link

I dunno what it is...Mum used to make comments like 'Oh Sharon' if I'd go back for seconds and maybe it's just my YOU'RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME gene, but that kind of stuff just enrages me so much.

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 22 May 2014 18:31 (nine years ago) link

It's so performative. It's preemptive self-shaming in case anybody was going to cluck their tongues at you for your donut consumption.

carl agatha, Thursday, 22 May 2014 18:44 (nine years ago) link

I dunno, I kinda find that "you go, girl" kind of responses just as patronising/bad as the "are you *sure* you want cheese with that?" responses and the "~diet~ coke?" "No, I said coke. I want a *fat* coke" interactions. Do not comment on my fucking food. Unless that comment is "excellent choice, the X is particularly tasty today."

I mean, I'm very good at eating whatever it was I wanted in the first place / taking the whole donut if I want a whole donut. And then fuming silently for hours or weeks - or even years, as in stuff I'm bringing up now - about it afterwards.

Strangers are actually easier to ignore than acquaintances/colleagues, and they are easier to ignore than family and relationships. Ugh, it's just... this stuff is embedded down real deep, and that deep level stuff really isn't easy to deal with. I dunno what's worse. The looks of barely sublimated rrrage from strangers at seeing a visibly fat woman enjoying the fuck out of an ice cream. Or the concern trolling from my Mum. No, definitely, the stuff from my Mum is worse, because that goes back so far.

And what we talked about in therapy (god, sorry for bringing up therapy. Discussing other people's therapy is like discussing other people's dreams, a mixture of boring and awkwardly private) was trying to understand the motivation of *why* people behave like that. Understanding people's motivations for why they do things which I find threatening or hurtful or deeply upsetting, as a way of trying to understand and defuse it. And I think ENBB was onto that thing. It is the response of people who have been on a diet their entire lives, who have denied themselves pleasure their entire lives, who are outraged that here is a chubby person (violating rule 1 by even existing) enjoying the fuck out of food (violating rule 2) and the amount of anger they have of, like, why am I allowed to get away with this behaviour when they're denying themselves?

With my Mother, it's way more complicated, because my Mother has been fat as long as I remember, has been on every diet known to mankind (does the whole lose 5 pounds thing, gain 7 pounds right back over, and over, and over again), has been ordered by her doctor to lose weight, and only gets fatter and fatter, has knee problems, has gout, lives on this weird low-fat but high sugar and high protein which compounds all of her health problems and makes them worse. And she has been food-shaming me since I was 9 (I started comfort eating when I moved to the States.) in the hopes that I would not turn out like her, and basically gave me a head full of food issues and body issues and weird shit that is really, really easy to clue into, if I let it.

But, basically, long story short: people who try to food shame you are usually wrestling with their own weird food and fat issues. It is their problem, not mine.

But that's not really the stuff I'm struggling with the moment. It's more like... food as control. Food as a way of "I get to define, what goes into my body". Food can be a battleground. Food as the one area of my life that I get to establish my limits and my boundaries over. I wonder if I'm still a vegetarian 25 years later because my Mum said it wouldn't last 6 months. I often wonder if being a vegetarian is a way of diverting all of my weird ~issues around food~ into a safe container so I don't develop full on weirdness about food as "controlling some aspect of my life" into an eating disorder.

And people's *reactions* to my vegetarianism really tells me a whole lot of what I need to know about them. That it's a really easy way of ascertaining whether this person is going to honour my boundaries and respect my needs (even if they don't agree with them or understand them). A person whose reaction is "OK, do you want to go to a pure vegetarian place or do you mind eating somewhere mixed?" is a good, safe person. A person who gives me grief or tries to shame me over it - or worse, yet, gets that weird, defensive "OMG vegetarians are so awful, they all think they're SO SUPERIOR and VIRTUOUS and god you lot are smug and awful and terrible I'm going to EAT MEAT AT YOU every chance I get, so that you can't ~be all vegetarian at me~" before I've even said a word, it's like... OK, not a good person to be around, goodbye.

I dunno. Everything is about boundaries for me. Everything is about sorting people into "safe" and "unsafe". (Kinda like my Mum has weird issues about sorting food into "healthy" and "not healthy" and it's fucking bizarre what ends up in each category.) I know a lot of this is about dealing with trauma, and living with Survivor status or, y'know, what comes across as ~victim mentality~. And I'm sure a lot of stuff that probably reads as "OMG, what are you, a special snowflake?" to other people is really trying to establish is this person safe or unsafe. (And my god, there is no quicker way to wind up in the "unsafe" tub than to use phrases like "special snowflake" with regards to difference.)

This is going to be really long; I'm sorry. I still haven't said half of what's in my head. This is the shit I'm wrestling with at the moment.

Branwell with an N, Thursday, 22 May 2014 19:23 (nine years ago) link

God I edited that to take half of it out, and it's still fucking WALL O TEXT. I'm so sorry.

Branwell with an N, Thursday, 22 May 2014 19:24 (nine years ago) link

It is the response of people who have been on a diet their entire lives, who have denied themselves pleasure their entire lives, who are outraged that here is a chubby person (violating rule 1 by even existing) enjoying the fuck out of food (violating rule 2) and the amount of anger they have of, like, why am I allowed to get away with this behaviour when they're denying themselves?

I am not proud of this, but when I was at my second-thinnest, I had an irrational hatred of fat people for this exact reason, as in I articulated this reason in talking about how I hate this irrational hatred, and it like never occurred to me that was something I needed to examine or reconsider or even just shut up about. Not that I was saying these things to actual fat people (IRL or on the internet), just that I have had at least one conversation out loud with someone about that. All joking aside I attribute at least part of my lack of critical thinking and empathy in that situation to severe, long-term calorie deprivation. I'm much kinder now that I'm fat and well-fed.

carl agatha, Thursday, 22 May 2014 19:31 (nine years ago) link

And also to my past self and any other thin people who hate fat people for that reason, I say "Join us. It's wonderful here. You can eat the whole donut."

carl agatha, Thursday, 22 May 2014 19:33 (nine years ago) link

Some people eat donuts and are still thin btw.

kinder, Thursday, 22 May 2014 19:36 (nine years ago) link

I know it's otherwise a really flawed book and a really flawed writer, but the first chapter of The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf, she quoted a study where they put a bunch of healthy male athletes on the kind of calorie deprivation diet that young women routinely keep themselves on, and the resulting psychological chaos, that was the first time I started to understand the mentality.

Branwell with an N, Thursday, 22 May 2014 19:37 (nine years ago) link

Xp Sorry, that wasn't what you were saying, and wasn't meant to be snarky!

kinder, Thursday, 22 May 2014 19:38 (nine years ago) link

It's okay! It's good to remember that not everybody is beset with issues around food.

BB, Gina Kolata's Rethinking Thin talks about a similar study done with soldiers, I think. Maybe it's Paul Campos's book, though. Either way, it was very enlightening to me as well.

carl agatha, Thursday, 22 May 2014 19:41 (nine years ago) link

OK, thanks, carl, I'll have a look for it.

I am actually a lot better than I've been, about "being weird about eating because: body shaming" these days.

But the whole "being weird about ~everything~ because: OMG BOUNDARIES" is still something I'm struggling a lot with at the moment.

It gets worse in times of stress; being in long-term unemployment is a definite cause of stress right now.

Thanks for listening to me, girls, and thanks for discussing this stuff. This is a great source of strength and comfort to me.

Branwell with an N, Thursday, 22 May 2014 19:46 (nine years ago) link

my use of "special snowflake" was mostly self-effacing, sorry if it upset anyone. It is about how people from the rest of the country perceive a certain culture where I live.

Branwell, your mom sounds like my mom in terms of size and dieting and health issues, though my mom doesn't have gout, she does have bad knees, which has made me fearful of exercise, which is totally irrational. But, my mom actually has fairly healthy attitudes towards food and didn't really instill me with any food ~issues~ apart from the genetic inevitability that I too would become a fat woman. But she also instilled in me that there were far worse things you can be than fat: you could be cruel, hateful, self-loathing, and have all sorts of other health problems.

In terms of values about food learned from my mom (so much of my childhood and youth is a blur at this point), I remember going to restaurants with my family and occasionally being mildly shamed for not being hungry enough to eat everything, but once it was established that I actually was pretty full, my mom would say things like, "Well, just eat the shrimp, that's the good part, pasta is cheap. It's the shrimp that made it expensive." And also, "don't eat unhealthy junk. if you want ice cream and cheese, get the good stuff, make it as delicious as possible."

It makes me sad reading about ladies on this thread with moms that shamed them and gave them body image issues.

sarahell, Thursday, 22 May 2014 20:57 (nine years ago) link

seriously though, I feel like I live half my life in an episode of Portlandia.

And now I am off to band practice at my underground noise co-op space where we have arguments about whether it is worth it to not buy plastic cups when what is really needed is the elimination of the police state and class warfare.

sarahell, Thursday, 22 May 2014 21:15 (nine years ago) link

I do kinda feel right now like Mums are getting a bit of a bad rap right now. Like, I've been talking about my Mum, but she was by far not the only person in my family to weight shame me or food shame me. My brother (who was thin) was pretty relentless - he was the one who would make "oink oink" pig noises if I was deemed to be eating too much or too avidly. (With, of course, the full consent, and lack of any kind of chastisement for cruelty from my family.) And my uncle (who was fat, but his wife and his daughter were thin) was fucking relentless in the weight shaming.

Like, I think it maybe hurts more when mothers do it because of the nature and closeness and projection involved in the mother-daughter relationship. But there was still a metric fuckton of it coming from male members of the family.

(I don't remember my father's opinion on weight, which is odd. My father's battles revolved around hair and the cutting of it.)

But OMG, that whole thing of being shamed for not finishing a meal!I got that a lot, too - on top of the "you're a disgusting pig oink oink" messages, so talk about conflicting messages. Food I wouldn't eat at lunch (including seafood, to which I have turned out to be allergic) would be returned to the plate at dinner. To this day, I cannot *not* finish a meal. This is the hardest thing for me, to stop eating when I feel full. If there is food still on my plate, I will literally keep eating until I feel sick because... guilt. It still feels dirty or shameful or wrong (and I try to tell myself it's being a responsible adult, but it doesn't feel like it) if I throw away food, or put it in the food waste bin.

Ugh, I hate being neurotic about this stuff. I'm so bored with feeling like a crazy person so much of the time.

Branwell with an N, Thursday, 22 May 2014 21:20 (nine years ago) link

my mom has always been really cool about food -- she taught me to eat what i want when i'm hungry. she also was never (ever!) "dieting" and whenever people would ask her how she kept her figure, she would always say "i just eat when i'm hungry and stop when i'm not hungry, i don't know" and then she would change the subject. we're both really small boned people of short stature, and she always told me i should eat for me, not for other people. now she's proud of my cooking, but never embarrasses me about it.

funch dressing (La Lechera), Thursday, 22 May 2014 21:24 (nine years ago) link

xp You're not crazy, you've just had a lot of people's own internal eating battles projected on to you.

I am very lucky to have a mother who is fairly decent when it comes to food issues (my dad was a serious barbecue dude, which is another story). She kind of predates the whole PAY ATTENTION TO SEASONAL FOOD trend by years and/or never varying from the idea that stuff comes from gardens at particular times of year and never got into fad diets because 'it's good to have treats' and everything is OK in moderation except for over-processed food. I was allowed to be picky when young because I reacted badly to certain foods while having chemo. After that, I was made to at least try the objectionable thing on my plate once. My mom also watched my aunt refuse the same dish of oatmeal for three days running when they were kids, a battle my aunt won in the end, and never pulled that shit on us.

Although I tried to be a vegetarian for a few months, and she did buy me tofu to go along with it, she did also wind up sabotaging the mission by buying the finest deli corned beef she could find and leaving it there in the fridge next to mustard and pumpernickel until I caved. I was a crap vegetarian and make a much better omnivore, though I enjoy the challenge of cooking for veggies (because it's not a challenge to a good cook).

baked beings on toast (suzy), Thursday, 22 May 2014 21:39 (nine years ago) link

I think I do need to give my Mum props for some aspects of food, despite diet weirdness and a lot of offhanded terrible comments (including pounding into my head that I was built like her and I was destined to have weight issues like her and always with the disparaging 'ugh you have boobs like your mother' 'ugh you have thighs like your mother' aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanyway)

The thing I'm really grateful for, w/r/t food is that she welcomed all of us kids into the kitchen, taught us how to pick out ripe fruits and vegetables at the store, when she got a microwave she bought a microwave cookbook for kids for us to make cakes and weird shit in the microwave, or cut up vegetables for a stir fry, whatever. a rite of passage when you were about 5 was when Mum let you hold the butter knife and cut pieces of banana or melon for a fruit salad. She did that for all 3 of us, and now my nephews as well. Teaching us how to stir gravy by having us write the alphabet in the saucepan 3 times (standing on a chair by the stove mind you but still)

That to me is worth rubies, because I know a lot of people whose parents did not welcome them into the kitchen and/or just made food be a very alien, scary kind of thing. My niece is 16 and is afraid to use an oven. Not that you HAVE to cook, but just as a basic survival/money saving skill, it's a good tool to have in your belt and I'm grateful to Mum for giving me that.

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 22 May 2014 21:45 (nine years ago) link

Xp suzy. My mom worked for farmers starting when I was 8 or 9 and she would drive out to the fields and bring home food for dinner.

sarahell, Thursday, 22 May 2014 21:56 (nine years ago) link

My mom could make a celebration out of driving 15 miles to the roadside stands that sold grocery bags full of freshly picked corn in season. In many ways she's ideal, to wit: food - 'it's awesome, eat a balanced diet so the good stuff tastes like the treat it is.' Sex: 'the most fun two people can have with their clothes off'.

baked beings on toast (suzy), Thursday, 22 May 2014 22:05 (nine years ago) link

As a mother (huh, that is still weird) it is very useful and lovely to read stories of what mothers did right wrt food and their daughters.

My mom did her best but she was a petite, slim woman blessed with a let's say robust child and a single mom at a time when having a fat kid was a clear sign of bad parenting (I guess that is now too) so while she had my husky ass on a constant diet starting at age nine, her heart was in the right place. Like she was never mean about it but she was prone to seeing fat people and saying things like, "If I ever get that fat, just shoot me" and that will do a number on a fat kid's psyche.

carl agatha, Friday, 23 May 2014 00:36 (nine years ago) link

I'm happy to talk with others about how I/they eat if it's very matter of fact and involves no judgment - otherwise, no. I'm interested in talking about what I eat only to the extent that I'm trying to find out what really satisfying eating looks like for me, and I'm interested in the diversity of how it is for others. Trusted peeps are needed for that kind of conversation. I only really dropped the last vestiges of paleo last autumn. Figuring out how to eat happily without rules is now a big goal for me, trying to focus on what feels great to eat (including some 'unhealthy' things) and what doesn't (including some 'healthy' things). Sometimes I feel clear-sighted about that, and other times I seem to rebel and just want to eat too much no matter how terrible it makes me feel. Definitely a bid for control.

In the past I've definitely been the person who burbles to the world about why they're only taking 1/8 of a slice of cake (no donuts, they're not my favourite). No more of that. Sometimes I do only take 1/8 of the slice and sometimes two slices (and a third at the end of the day when the leftovers have gone to the fridge) - my decision.

I don't think I've ever been food shamed as badly as some of the stories here. 'George'!!' WTF.

ljubljana, Friday, 23 May 2014 01:03 (nine years ago) link

Sitting out of this discussion about discussion of eating b/c I think our socialization, as feminists and what have you, is to discuss the discussion of eating and my little protest is to say ENOUGH.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 23 May 2014 01:52 (nine years ago) link

With empathy and respect, for real, but that is my only .02 cents: when we focus on a (negative) focus, we're still focusing on the (unhealthy, unhelpful, gender-biased) topic.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 23 May 2014 01:55 (nine years ago) link

I think in the face of people saying "this is so not a thing, that never happens" to turn around and say "actually, this is a thing, it happens to me all the time, am I crazy, or does this happen to other people?' is one of the most powerful tools one can have. I am not going to apologise for talking about something I am beaten in the face with every day, like I am not going to apologise for talking about the narrative of rape culture when other people are all "omg why are you talking about rape yet again, how boring, you victim mentality, you".

I respect your decision to sit the discussion out, but walking into a discussion already in progress and saying "ENOUGH" is not exactly sitting it out, is it? With all due respect, I'm not feeling a lot of empathy from your posts.

Maybe I am just cranky because I have mysteriously just gotten my second period in two weeks. OMG, we sure talk about our periods a lot on this thread, too! How unhelpfully gender-based and unhealthy! Or maybe we have few other places to actually talk about this stuff in the company of other women without being chastised or challenged for it.

I think there has been a really good mixture of discussion of negative aspects, and countering with positive responses. Sorry if the discussion was ~not to your taste~ but it *had* been very helpful for me.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 23 May 2014 07:40 (nine years ago) link

I agree with BraNwell.

BB, Is it a mittelschmerz-type period thing or a proper one? Because the former is pretty normal, especially to people with fibroids. The latter less so, but fibroids also have this strange habit of kicking off an extra period. I've got them too, only mine are not quite as bad as what you've posted about previously.

My mother and I have a pretty fraught relationship in other areas - eg. me objecting to her co-dependence with my sister - but in terms of food and body image, we're golden. We spent half an hour on the phone talking about the authentic Polish sausages we were going to drive to NE Minneapolis to get on my next visit FFS.

baked beings on toast (suzy), Friday, 23 May 2014 08:10 (nine years ago) link

Nope, I've never had this before. (Well, once, but that was because I stopped The Pill in the middle of my cycle because it was making me psychotic.) I thought it was just spotting yesterday, but today it's full blown (will spare you the details). Ugh. It's exactly 15 days from the start of the last one. Feeling pretty flattened to be honest.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 23 May 2014 08:17 (nine years ago) link

It is perfectly normal to have a mini-period at that point in the cycle, when one has fibroids. In my case, I'm having the painters in about once every three weeks because of these nasty womb-squatters.

baked beings on toast (suzy), Friday, 23 May 2014 08:31 (nine years ago) link

I have generally not been food-shamed too badly despite being fat, or I've been oblivious to it, but I still know that feeling of worrying omg what will the supermarket cashier think, the "Coke please" "ok, diet Coke" "uh, no" (when I used to drink a lot of diet Coke I had headaches every day - maybe just coincidence but it makes me wary anyway. so I don't like it when they don't even ask and just pour me a diet Coke), worrying that I'm that coworker who's conspicuously always eating, etc.

My new GP sent me to do "food diarising" with the nurse. I've been really bad about doing it, mostly out of laziness and a grumpy "it's none of anyone's business", but also the shame of admitting to everything I eat: the nights when I'm too tired to shop properly or cook, or when I'm trying to fit in with someone else who apparently only eats pizza or chips, or when I'm sad/busy and my brain stupidly tells me junk food will get me through.

And it's not just the fat/calorie content which is potentially shameful but all the other food-related shame, like I can hear the nurse's voice going "you eat a lot of ready meals, don't you? can't you cook? why do you buy pre-made sandwiches when you could make them? you ate noodles 3 nights in a row, that's a bit weird, isn't it? have you ever heard of fresh vegetables?"

Last week I went for conveyor-belt sushi with someone and ate about a third of what he did but I still felt the barbs in the waiter's "ooh you must have been hungry" (we stacked our plates together). Maybe I take things too personally.

the ghosts of dead pom-bears (a passing spacecadet), Friday, 23 May 2014 09:31 (nine years ago) link

I've been told 'you girls can EAT' but tbh I think that was either making misguided conversation or misguided 'flattery'. I did one of those food diaries for a general health check-up and honestly, there is no way to win with them. I.do mainly cook from scratch but because they extrapolate from a few days I got lectured on the amount of sugar in dried apricots (I ate one packet over the 5 days) and that I should 'lay off the pizza express' (first one in about a year that happened to fall into the diary period) so basically it's their job to make you aware, but they can also sod off.

kinder, Friday, 23 May 2014 10:05 (nine years ago) link

I do sometimes wonder how much of this is internalised (that worry of "OMG, is the supermarket cashier judging my groceries" - actually, no, she's probably just counting down the minutes until her next smoke break and doesn't care what you're buying) and how much of this is actually genuinely external (i.e. every other example on this thread, the Georges of the world). It's a mixture of both, with the external stuff endlessly reinforcing the internalised monologue.

With regards to comfort eating and binge eating - I used to be a massive comfort eater. (Also, with weird highly ritualised "bad food" episodes. Like, seriously, the first year I first moved back to England, I went through a phase where I would kind of compulsively go to the Swiss Cottage MacDonalds and eat a cheeseburger. I don't *like* the taste of meat. I *really* don't like Macdonalds food. But there was this weird "I am doing ~the forbidden thing~" mortification/punishment/thrill to it, and of course would go home and feel sick, and beat myself up for doing it. I've done this with alcohol, I've done this with sugar, or whatever "the Forbidden Thing" is.) But breaking out of that has been partly HAES, and partly my therapist. When we were talking about my desire to binge in response to An Upsetting Event, she told me something very unexpected: she gave me "permission" to go have a treat. She was like, what's your favourite ice cream? I was all "Ben N Jerry's Caramel Chew Chew". She told me to go and get a pint of it, and eat it, slowly, savouring every single mouthful and enjoying the taste and the texture. She told me, make an event of it, put on my favourite music or my favourite film while I ate it. Enjoy the hell out of it. Experience it as total pleasure and enjoyment. If you are comfort eating, you are allowed to comfort eat, *if* you allow yourself to get comfort out of it. Not view it as this weird, ritual mortification thing that I feel guilty as hell for doing. But as this lovely thing that is supposed to make you feel better, and does actually make you feel better because, wow, that tastes really nice.

But it's weird. Now that this is *available*, as a thing I can do, and enjoy, and I'm "allowed" to do it, I don't get the compulsion to do it all the time. I can keep a bar of good chocolate, or a box of my absolute favourite ginger biscuits in the house, all the time, and not just surrender to the urge to scarf the whole thing immediately. Sometimes they stay there for weeks! Keep it for when I need a little burst of pleasure! Which is, apparently, the kind of relationship with food that "normal" people have! This is amazing to me. I've never experienced food in this way before.

And it's like... remembering watching my Mother, joylessly and compulsively eating her way through a whole box of totally unsatisfying low calorie weight watchers "Ice Milk" or whatever, and beating herself up for doing it. And seeing myself doing the same fucking thing, and hating myself for doing it, on so many levels. The idea of decoupling guilt from pleasure, and just going "you know what? pleasure is really fucking nice. Might as well enjoy it."

I dunno. This is a different thing from what you're describing, APS, which sounds much more like the experience of being too tired and depressed and flattened to cook. Which is, y'know, you are tired and depressed and flattened, and cooking is work. (Its sometimes pleasurable, but it is still work, which is something that not all people have the time or the energy for. Which is fine!) But the idea of detaching the guilt (and the accompanying internal monologue) from that. "I eat like this because: reasons." You've been trying to address the reasons of depression and exhaustion and being flattened. But they are still *valid* reasons to be eating the way you do. And until those reasons are dealt with, your *eating* is not the problem. But decoupling guilt from food is hard when you're being overtly judged in the form of nurses or the internalised monologue of your food diary.

I dunno. Different strokes for different folks, though. Experiment until you find out what works for you. This is the thing that worked for me.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 23 May 2014 10:24 (nine years ago) link

I also feel guilty for ~getting heavy~ on the thread, and would really like to lighten it with confetti and heritage apples and Kessler gifs.

I'm sorry.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 23 May 2014 10:43 (nine years ago) link

Hey, you already mentioned those ginger biscuits, so that'll do....

kinder, Friday, 23 May 2014 11:44 (nine years ago) link

She told me to go and get a pint of it, and eat it, slowly, savouring every single mouthful and enjoying the taste and the texture. She told me, make an event of it, put on my favourite music or my favourite film while I ate it. Enjoy the hell out of it. Experience it as total pleasure and enjoyment. If you are comfort eating, you are allowed to comfort eat, *if* you allow yourself to get comfort out of it.

I think this story is awesome! Yes, allow yourself to be comforted, not punished. So beautifully healthy and also! Ice cream!

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 23 May 2014 12:16 (nine years ago) link

I just started reading a book about mindful eating which talks a lot about doing just that as a way to regain a healthy relationship with food. It's pretty interesting stuff tbh.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Friday, 23 May 2014 12:30 (nine years ago) link

E, which book? I seem to be collecting books about that on my Kindle...

ljubljana, Friday, 23 May 2014 14:11 (nine years ago) link

yeah I'm curious

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 23 May 2014 15:36 (nine years ago) link

http://www.savorthebook.com/ - I used to work in the same dept as one of the writers.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Friday, 23 May 2014 16:49 (nine years ago) link

I am really struggling with food issues lately. I've realized that ever since I was a teen, I've cycled between restrictive eating, orthorexia, or massive binging. And it's totally tanked my thyroid, and as a result, probably made me much heavier than I'd be if I'd NEVER DIETED IN THE FIRST PLACE. I've basically been on a massive binging streak since Christmas, and as a result put on 25 pounds. I keep thinking "tomorrow I'll go back to eating paleo"... but, ugh, WHY. I apologize if any of this was triggering.

homosexual II, Friday, 23 May 2014 17:58 (nine years ago) link

I also read a book called "Diet Recovery" by Matt Stone that's been pretty eye opening about the effects of restrictive eating on overall health and metabolism, and kinda realizing I don't like this feeling of 'doing good' versus 'doing bad'

homosexual II, Friday, 23 May 2014 17:59 (nine years ago) link

I think a lot of this information (about how dieting makes you fatter, including the ~here's the science bit~ behind how that works) is in the actual Health At Every Size book, by Linda Bacon. Which is one of those books I wish could just be issued to every man, woman and genderqueer at the age of 13 or something. (Granted, probably younger, but you get the idea.)

But I completely understand struggling with this stuff, and sympathise completely.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 23 May 2014 18:08 (nine years ago) link

yes, this dude Matt Stone references the Linda Bacon book. I've never been able to keep off any significant weight loss for longer than four years.

homosexual II, Friday, 23 May 2014 18:16 (nine years ago) link

The Linda Bacon book, genuinely (and I know I say this about every other book) but it really did change my life. Because it started with "this is the science behind why permanent weight loss is not effective" and then went through dealing with food shaming and body shaming, and then started talking about mindful eating. I'm trying to re-read it once a year, to make sure the ideas stay fresh in my head and don't slip back into shitty expectations because it's so hard to throw off stuff that's so ingrained. I wish it had existed 10, 20 years ago, but I'm just glad enough that it came into my life now.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 23 May 2014 18:20 (nine years ago) link

I need to read that!!!

Well, this week I've just been eating what I want. I'm eating carbs. And I'm finding... whoa, I actually have energy. CRAZY.

homosexual II, Friday, 23 May 2014 18:21 (nine years ago) link

Reading all this, taking it in. I have had my own issues, even this week, but I don't want to pass it down to August. I did feel ashamed for all the bullshit I went through this past week with the whole swim suit thing, body thing. I am 43 and felt 14 about my body and self-esteem. Working out is a mental fix for me and I'd feel better about so much more if I could stay moving on a regular basis. I hope to get there and started on Monday.

I love how August loves being in her lil body, she looks at herself in the mirror and the looks she gives herself kill me. So much pride and happiness there. We were all that way. To hear what everyone has gone through, remembering my own issues and battles, it's heartbreaking. Really, I mean it is fucking heartbreaking.

She is already aware and mimics much of what I do. I feel it is my responsibility to start cracking down on myself when it comes to negative comments, attitudes about my body. That is more important to me than trying to stop cussing.

*tera, Saturday, 24 May 2014 08:51 (nine years ago) link

I think that trying to disconnect this stuff from *shame* is pretty important. You had some body issues last week, you talked about it, I hope that talking made you feel better about it! Like, I had food issues this week, I talked about it, I felt better about it.

Me, I'm not a big fan of exercise, but one of the most important lessons of adulthood is that exercise is crucial - not for dieting, or looking good, or conforming to expectations of appearance - but for maintaining equanimity, and feeling good emotionally. I had tons and tons of shame and awfulness surrounding ~EXERCISE~ for years. It took discovering forms of exercise that make me feel great, to get my head around exercise. I like walking. I LOVE walking, whether it's just a mile up the road to the common and back, or a seven mile hike going up hills and looking for views and forests I've never seen before, and the deep noticing that happens when I'm walking. It feels so good! It feels so right!, being in my body, walking I love, love, love my body when I'm climbing hills, because it feels so good to be in it, I feel so proud and strong when I get to the top! (Especially if there's an amazing view.) And feeling good in my body is not something I get to experience very often, so it's such an amazing thing when I do.

So whatever it is that gets you to that feeling - whether it's climbing the North Downs or doing a work-out - do that thing! Go with the "this feels so GOOD" rather than that awful sense of shame over ~having~ to do it, or not doing it.

I dunno; the idea of being responsible for a child terrifies me. Because they do pick up everything you do. They model everything. So you can't just tell kids "do this, do that" you have to model things like self image, and model consent, and model mindful or intuitive eating (or whatever we're calling it). That idea scares the shit out of me.

Right now I'm trying to do things in reverse. I'm trying to model healthy boundaries, and model consent with my Mother right now, because I didn't get raised right on those issues. I can't change her, but I can change me. And just hope that changing me is something that will reflect back to her.

But this is not a fun place right now, so I'm going to go and take a walk to my favourite woods.

Branwell with an N, Saturday, 24 May 2014 11:47 (nine years ago) link

Guys I know this album cover is kind of ideologically gross but I was looking at the tank top design and was like 'damn I would really love a tank top with swoopy curly letters and saguaro and a secondary color palatte' – like if the idea was 'hey this is a cool shirt' then I agree

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/9b/NRPSBestOf.jpg/220px-NRPSBestOf.jpg

just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Monday, 26 May 2014 01:36 (nine years ago) link

agreed

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 26 May 2014 01:39 (nine years ago) link

In good 'tank top' related news, my male students call male tank tops 'bro tanks' and not 'wifebeaters.' I used the term 'wifebeater' when we were talking about examples of professional and non-professional dress and the unilateral reaction was revulsion. "WHY WOULD ANYONE CALL IT THAT? THAT'S DISGUSTING!" one young man said. They treated "wifebeater" like an odious relic of a bygone era and I sure hope it is. You know, because these ~20 students represent the entire generlizable future of language and humanity.

just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Monday, 26 May 2014 01:40 (nine years ago) link

I hope they do! My heart is warmed.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Monday, 26 May 2014 03:11 (nine years ago) link

Also, walking is the best, I hardly consider it an exercise I enjoy it so much (even in stupid-cold winter), as long as I've got good shoes on and give myself enough time. I don't know how I'd even do living in a place where walking (as commute or otherwise) was out of the ordinary...

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Monday, 26 May 2014 03:14 (nine years ago) link

being in my body, walking I love, love, love my body when I'm climbing hills, because it feels so good to be in it, I feel so proud and strong when I get to the top!

The good stuff. ^^^ I try not to be down on my body and I do better than I used to, but even in less charitable times I've turned to long bike rides or self-defense classes or hell even zumba workouts for the feeling of strength and capability I get to wear around afterward. And every time I feel it, the sense of ease gets a little more comfortable and easier to summon up in memory.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Monday, 26 May 2014 05:25 (nine years ago) link

That shirt is indeed a really cool shirt, Crabbs. But "headless female torso as billboard-thing advert for men" is still just one of those things that makes me feel so icky.

Having an odd couple of days. I'm more disturbed than I thought I would be by recent events (I don't think I have to name, and would prefer not to get into details of, for obvious reasons) and feeling kinda ambivalent about the way that the discussion is unfolding. I can choose not to participate, because I don't think I have anything to add, but it's hard to either filter out or deal with.

And then woke up this morning to the results of the European elections and just feeling like the world is fast becoming a nastier place.

But it's like, not wanting to fall into misery over those things. Wanting to remind myself of the good and joyful and stuff-that-makes-it-worthwhile. I dunno, it can be dumb, stupid, shallow stuff (found a beautiful photo last night of Kessler, before he started straightening his hair, and how adorable curly-haired boys can be) or just self-improvement stuff (got two new pocket guides to trees and wildflowers, and have been learning the names of new plants - I found Vetch on the common. So exciting!) I dunno; I just need reminders of your little joys and little triumphs and little happinesses.

Like, my friend got a bit drunk on Tumblr last night and I woke up to my dashboard this morning filled with 8000 pictures of her crush. And just her giddy happiness and joy and excitement shone through, this was such a source of joy for her, and I felt happy seeing her so giddy and happy. What are the little things that give you those bursts of giddy joy?

Branwell with an N, Monday, 26 May 2014 09:49 (nine years ago) link

dumb well-meaning musician dude posted a "rant" inspired by current events on fb -- one of those long posts where when you add "with my penis" to each sentence, it makes a lot more sense than as written.

sarahell, Monday, 26 May 2014 10:09 (nine years ago) link

What really brings me a lot of ***joy*** lately, and I'm sure everyone knows –– cacti/succulents...here is some of my backyard container garden:

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f86/igotabeefpastry/2014-05-26062140.jpg

I picked a few up a Costco (of all places) on a whim and got o*b*s*e*s*s*e*d learning about them, identifying them, looking at photos of them, and caring for them!

1. They are SURVIVORS and kind of a cool, inspirational model for how to live?
2. They are beautiful/machine-elf-weird and surprising, and it is FUN to watch things grow!
3. They are so biologically and reproductively different than animals or even other plants; learning about them is a constant source of fascination.
4. Riding my bike around Tucson, I see everyone's gardens, or overgrown desert patches, in a totally different way! It is like peeking over the hill into a valley of new information to explore. Knowing that's all ahead is very exciting, It makes me wonder what other things are all around me, now ignored, that will someday be a passion and make me see the world yet again anew. It makes me optimistic!

just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Monday, 26 May 2014 13:35 (nine years ago) link

WOW! What an amazing plant collection / backyard space. That is really beautiful, and that space would make me happy.

Branwell with an N, Monday, 26 May 2014 13:41 (nine years ago) link

Yeah I love to grill up a dinner, have a beer or two, tend to my plants, watch the sunset, play some music...always a perfect evening.

just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Monday, 26 May 2014 13:42 (nine years ago) link

Beautiful! Also inspirational! I have some pots on our deck that I plan your standard assortment of sun annuals in every year (just got them done this weekend) and your garden makes me want to do more. I love it and all your cacti. Yay for happy places!

carl agatha, Monday, 26 May 2014 14:07 (nine years ago) link

We have a substantial succ collection too - it has lasted several years.now, while the decorative grasses and ferns I recently planted have all died and the veg patch is looking pitiful.

just1n3, Monday, 26 May 2014 14:42 (nine years ago) link

For lunch, I just stir-fried beans that we harvested in the Community Garden yesterday. They tasted so ... like, I never knew beans could taste that strongly *beany*. That was a nice feeling of pride and "yeah! we did this!" Listening to music and eating home-grown beans.

Branwell with an N, Monday, 26 May 2014 15:21 (nine years ago) link

Those beans got their carbon...FROM THE AIR! THEY ARE MADE OF AIR.

just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Monday, 26 May 2014 15:23 (nine years ago) link

Oh btw guys I have a special corner garden that is a sacred datura, a morning glory, a few trichocereus pachanoi cacti...just sitting around getting all shamanic behind my clothesline. I would never eat them, it's just a dumb joke with myself.

just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Monday, 26 May 2014 15:25 (nine years ago) link

They are made from DIRT and AIR and yet they taste of OM NOM NOM NOM. How can this be. How.

Branwell with an N, Monday, 26 May 2014 15:26 (nine years ago) link

My favorite Instagram photos are of potted plants. Make me happy, your photo makes me happy!

*tera, Monday, 26 May 2014 17:29 (nine years ago) link

yall give me joy.

The idea of decoupling guilt from pleasure, and just going "you know what? pleasure is really fucking nice. Might as well enjoy it."

i actually laughed out loud with happiness reading this post! thank you.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 29 May 2014 12:25 (nine years ago) link

For the cherub with his flaming
sword is hereby commanded to leave
his guard at [the] tree of life, and
when he does, the whole creation will
be consumed and appear infinite and
holy, whereas it now appears finite
and corrupt.

This will come to pass by an im-
provement of sensual enjoyment.

just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Thursday, 29 May 2014 14:43 (nine years ago) link

Those who restrain desire, do so
because theirs is weak enough to be
restrained; and the restrainer or
reason usurps its place and governs
the unwilling.

And being restrained, it by degrees
becomes passive, till it is only the
shadow of desire.

just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Thursday, 29 May 2014 14:44 (nine years ago) link

Those are just some words I live by.

just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Thursday, 29 May 2014 14:44 (nine years ago) link

IN OTHER NEWS, recent yucky news events are on my mind. I listened to The Anthology of American Folk Music, vol. 1, while cooking up a big-ass meal of arepas & fixins for company. All the songs about women and the bad ends they meet, and their strength and hardships in courting, were really cathartic for me. I heard them all in a different and moving way – when I was 17 and first got obsessed w/those albums, it was "dude these songs are so DARK, they're all about MURDER and shit, also they're OLD." When I listened to it last night, the stories they told seemed real! I could totally envision like a movie in my mind their lives and woes!

just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Thursday, 29 May 2014 14:51 (nine years ago) link

It was jarring to hear this refrain, "all the girls wouldn't have him":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOVcN23-3ek

But it lost its "yucky news resonance" because the guy is a figure of fun. Also yuck at "jumped Jim Crow."

just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Thursday, 29 May 2014 14:53 (nine years ago) link

"Willie Moore," always a favorite, stood out, too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2wMe8s9mCc

Lots of time devoted to Annie, the person who took her life only named in initials – I thought, that's how the levels of attention should be balanced in these affairs.

just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Thursday, 29 May 2014 14:56 (nine years ago) link

Those who restrain desire, do so
because theirs is weak enough to be
restrained; and the restrainer or
reason usurps its place and governs
the unwilling.

And being restrained, it by degrees
becomes passive, till it is only the
shadow of desire.

This just made me so sad because it's kind of how I feel about everything in life at the moment.

But then again, I also feel kinda like disconnect from desire is a very powerful philosophy and not really wanting anything is a state of power, and resists the control that would be exerted over you by people who want to enslave you with desire.

But desire for what is the question. Desire as in lust? Desire as in cupidity and greed? Desire as in wanting consumer goods and ~lifestyle products~? Desire to experience the sensory joy of eating a damn ice cream?

Dark old folk music and the like can be a v v positive experience, though, because so many of the things one thinks of as being ~modern complaints~ about the difficulty of human relationships turn out to date back to the beginning of time. So there's a comfort that you're not alone, even if there's no comfort in how shit things have been for so long.

Branwell with an N, Thursday, 29 May 2014 16:10 (nine years ago) link

i made arepas for my speech class! also grim folk songs are always going to feel like home. also three cheers for pleasure and sensualism beyond the bedroom.

La Lechera, Thursday, 29 May 2014 16:50 (nine years ago) link

(i made a chicken thing to go on the arepas, didn't just fling them around like little frisbees)

La Lechera, Thursday, 29 May 2014 16:53 (nine years ago) link

Today I am mostly vacillating back and forth between "looking at pictures of beautiful men makes me happy" and "looking at pictures of beautiful men creates expectations which can never be fulfilled and makes me unhappy" and feeling weird and guilty about desire.

Branwell with an N, Thursday, 29 May 2014 17:04 (nine years ago) link

I have new PC speakers which is making my music sound 3000% better and also there are three peelies on them which I will resist peeling for as long as I can

kinder, Thursday, 29 May 2014 17:06 (nine years ago) link

I have no interest in beautiful men. I do have any interest in beautiful women, though.

homosexual II, Thursday, 29 May 2014 17:50 (nine years ago) link

It's complicated.

Branwell with an N, Thursday, 29 May 2014 17:58 (nine years ago) link

I tried on everything at Uniqlo and now I have like 200% more body positivity work to do. Fucking store.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Thursday, 29 May 2014 18:17 (nine years ago) link

Ugh god. I hear you so hard on that. I think I need to be sedated to go through fitting room anxiety anymore. It's always such a horrible experience.

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 29 May 2014 18:20 (nine years ago) link

Shopping is the worst.

La Lechera, Thursday, 29 May 2014 18:22 (nine years ago) link

Uniqlo has really good men's socks, just fyi.

carl agatha, Thursday, 29 May 2014 18:22 (nine years ago) link

I bought some of those silver oxfords at Target for $8.96 yesterday (70% off!) and that was ok, but nothing ever fits me so yeah, shopping suuuuuuux

La Lechera, Thursday, 29 May 2014 18:25 (nine years ago) link

Target's boot cut (not skinny) jeans are actually pretty flattering and comfortable

sarahell, Thursday, 29 May 2014 18:31 (nine years ago) link

I got some great jeans there too! They're high rise, hit directly at ankle which is like a miracle for me.

La Lechera, Thursday, 29 May 2014 18:32 (nine years ago) link

ooh that's good to know.

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 29 May 2014 18:34 (nine years ago) link

i have made the mistake (twice) of buying skinny jeans in my size at target -- and it gave me great sympathy for teenage girls

sarahell, Thursday, 29 May 2014 18:37 (nine years ago) link

I have pretty much decided that the only jeans I will wear from now on are these elastic waist jeggings (they are denim, though, not like knit or anything so they look like jeans) because they are super comfortable and look reasonable on me. Hopefully when skinny jeans become hopelessly outdated, this company will make the same pants in straight leg or boot cut or sneaker bottom or clog fray or sandal peg whatever exciting thing comes next w/r/t the width of jeans cuffs. But even if they don't, fuck it I am a 41 year old midwestern mother* who cares if my jeans are stylist.

*I made Velveeta and Rotel tomato cheese dip last weekend, even. OWNING IT.

carl agatha, Thursday, 29 May 2014 18:48 (nine years ago) link

carl who makes your jeggings?

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 29 May 2014 18:51 (nine years ago) link

American somethingorother? Rag? I got them at Macy's, then liked them so much I went back and bought three more pairs when they went on sale. Like I could tell you where to find them in the Chicago State Street Macy's but I can't remember the brand name. I'll confirm when I get home, though.

carl agatha, Thursday, 29 May 2014 18:55 (nine years ago) link

I do have to take the waist in but I have to do that with all of my pants so I don't hold that against them.

carl agatha, Thursday, 29 May 2014 18:56 (nine years ago) link

Uniqlo just have really crazy sizing, IIRC. (I haven't shopped there in years, but even when I was thinner, I always took a size larger than I took at any other shop. And this is with UK sizing running smaller then US sizing, as well!)

I p much don't bother buying trousers or jeans anywhere else except Marks & Sparks any more. I get really happy when I shop there and have to ask the assistant "these are too big, please could you fetch me a smaller size?" (Also, they do the best skinny ties. I really appreciate that they do most colour ties in like 3 different widths: Kipper, Office Worker, Mod.)

Branwell with an N, Thursday, 29 May 2014 19:01 (nine years ago) link

I think Macy's sells a brand called American Rag. I have a bag by them - maybe that's it?

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Thursday, 29 May 2014 19:02 (nine years ago) link

I am pretty sure that's it, yeah. I don't see them on Macy's website, though. :( I must have bought them all.

carl agatha, Thursday, 29 May 2014 19:06 (nine years ago) link

I am a big fan of target's denizen skinnies. I wish they were high waisted but the petite length is just right on me. They dont stretch out, either.

just1n3, Thursday, 29 May 2014 20:15 (nine years ago) link

Uniqlo is momentarily forgiven because I bought three awesome dresses and a tube skirt. VERY CONFUSINGLY I need a Small in all their knit dresses but BARELY fit into their largest pant size and that's only by dint of hiking those stovepipes up my thigh meat one leg at a time.

Have already tried on with all my jewelry and shoe options. Very excited to always look awesome this summer!

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Thursday, 29 May 2014 22:07 (nine years ago) link

omg I just looked at the site

DID YOU GET A STRIPED DRESS?

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Thursday, 29 May 2014 23:51 (nine years ago) link

No! Two of the 3 dresses I bought aren't even shown on their site anymore, they must have cycled them out already? But I went for the Cache-Coeur drape dress, which is better looking on. Our Brooklyn store didn't have any of the print or sundress styles in.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 30 May 2014 00:08 (nine years ago) link

I got a pretty skip from there, in a weird mauve color, but it's unwearable because it rides up to my boobs in 5 mins!

just1n3, Friday, 30 May 2014 00:44 (nine years ago) link

Slip not skip

just1n3, Friday, 30 May 2014 00:44 (nine years ago) link

Listen tho, silver oxfords are NIRVANA. Inspired choice, LL.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 30 May 2014 01:20 (nine years ago) link

I have my first (of three) "perfect fit skirt" sewing classes this weekend! We make a muslin pattern from scratch to our measurements.

Today I go shopping for the fabric. So Many Choices.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 30 May 2014 12:44 (nine years ago) link

(Aside to Kinder: I did get what you were saying, and I appreciate it, and thanks.)

Branwell with an N, Sunday, 1 June 2014 17:35 (nine years ago) link

My grandma is dying. She's been in decline for a while. My mom has a pragmatic, tough attitude about her family members dying. It's unusual, but I'm fine with it. Here's how the call went the other day.

MOM: Hey, you made it! The school year's over.
ME: Hooray!
HER: I don't want to keep you too long. I just thought I'd let you know, grandma's not talking anymore, and things are getting worse. The next time I call it'll be to let you know she's dying.
[I offer my condolences, say I hope it's quick and easy for her...not totally sure how to react because she doesn't sound sad at all but otoh I know that's not her style...blah blah blah...]
MOM: I don't want you to think I would be acting this way if you were dying. I'm glad you're still alive!
ME: I promise to stay that way as long as I can.
HER: *rioutous, sustained laugher* ...oh, kid, you crack me up!

So, that's how I found out my grandma's dying!

just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Sunday, 1 June 2014 17:49 (nine years ago) link

A conversation with no tears, only laughter. My family!

just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Sunday, 1 June 2014 17:50 (nine years ago) link

TBH I kinda feel the same way about it. When I was a kid and feeling all CONFESSIONAL and TABOO with my siblings, you'd ask those scary questions like, "If mom and dad got divorced, who would you want to live with?" And, the most solemn, "When grandma dies, do you think you'll be able to cry?" I wasn't ever sure the answer could be yes. She's tough to get close to, and my mom has even more reason...she basically supported both of her parents and her siblings since she was old enough to be able to. Not sentimental about her childhood or family at all.

just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Sunday, 1 June 2014 17:54 (nine years ago) link

Families are so weird in all their dynamics! But I'm still sorry to hear about your Gran.

Branwell with an N, Sunday, 1 June 2014 20:27 (nine years ago) link

my mother is really weird about her mother, too. They don't seem to love each other at all. I am pretty sure my grandmother had some sort of attachment disorder from being adopted (she was in and out of orphanages until she was 4), and my mother sort of didn't really know how to be... warm and maternal as a result. I should just save this sort of stuff for therapy.

homosexual II, Wednesday, 4 June 2014 16:45 (nine years ago) link

I'm learning all kinds of amazing shit about my relaysh with mine and how that's impacted me and, man, is it heavy.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 4 June 2014 17:10 (nine years ago) link

My mother's mom was dragged off to an institution as the kids looked on, because she had a psychotic post-partum break after my youngest uncle was born, so in hindsight my mother realises just how many aspects of parenting she had to sort of make up as she went along, not having any 'mother' cues to fall back upon based on her own childhood (my grandfather did a pretty good job, considering all the BS he had to deal with just to raise four kids virtually solo as a man in the 1950s). It's probably the reason our arguments can be a kind of one-on-one warfare, because there's less 'I am the parent and you are the child' normal/static boundaries that most of my other friends have had to negotiate.

baked beings on toast (suzy), Wednesday, 4 June 2014 17:14 (nine years ago) link

Well, my grandma died. Everyone's grieving or not grieving in their own way. I guess my youngest brother punched some holes in the wall. He really loved her.

My grandma juts kind of did whatever guys in her life told her, my mom says. She married a guy right out of high school and had kids right away. He wouldn't allow her to learn to drive. He was an alcoholic and abusive, and weird – he raised pigs in the backyard, and bees. My mom was the second oldest kid – her older sister is developmentally delayed. At 14 she got a job at a gas station and got paid under the table, less than minimum, so she could save up and buy a sewing machine to make her and her four siblings clothes. This was in the early 1970s. My mom won't talk about her family or childhood much – I've just pieced all this together, mostly from things my dad would yell at her when they were fighting!

Grandma would say things like, "The whole world went to Hell when they started letting women wear pants to work." She'd come and visit and say things to my mom like, "You need to do something about the boy Crabbits is dating," right in front of me, like I was invisible. I was afraid of her as a kid, had that kind of passive aggressive relationship with her as a teen, but I still tried to keep in touch as a grown up. I'd mail her photos and cards a couple times a year. She rarely wrote back. About seven years ago, she would write back, but she'd sign the card as "your aunt," and not "your grandma." Or she'd use her sister's name instead of her own. Her dog (she had a black dog named Spook – do you see why we weren't close?) and bird died a long time ago, but she still acted like they were there. She'd been dying a long time.

just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Wednesday, 4 June 2014 17:55 (nine years ago) link

Oh, Crabbits, that sounds fraught and difficult, and I'm sorry it's so complicated. I don't think you want condolences, though I'd offer them if you did, but mostly just thinking of you. x

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 4 June 2014 19:15 (nine years ago) link

I just talked to my mom and she said, "I don't have time to be sad now, but in six months I'll have to delete her from my cell phone contacts, and I'll be sad then." :(

just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Wednesday, 4 June 2014 20:06 (nine years ago) link

Oof that is poignant.

Echoing BB. Condolences if you want them, but also a recognition that death in the family, even when it's not the way it's "supposed" to go carries a lot of emotional weight. Take care of yourself.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 4 June 2014 20:21 (nine years ago) link

Sorry to hear that Crabbits, fwiw.

Your grandmother sounds a bit like my great aunt. Sour old lady who bossed around my nan even though nan was the only one who gave a shit about her & she would have been homeless without nan's care. She always glared at me. Nan would have me draw pictures for her & she'd just stare at them for a moment & drop them at my feet. Mean old lady she was.

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 5 June 2014 01:13 (nine years ago) link

my mom's mom was very similar. i found out after she died that she got permanently mad at me in 1991 for bringing a friend to a family function and held that against me until she stopped talking to me altogether in 1996 because she thought it was unwise of my parents to allow me to go to colombia during my year abroad in college. she died a few years ago, i don't even remember when, and i cried (at work in front of my class) but mostly because she was so miserable and it was sad to me that a person could live an entire life being that miserable and resentful and not do anything about it. she was a talented and inventive home cook, that's what i got from her i guess. she taught me what asafetida was when i was 7 or 8. she made clothes for me too, at least until she decided that she didn't like me anymore.

i think i posted something when she died because my mom and aunt found all these bags of $20 bills in her closet. i could look it up but why bother. anyway, you're not alone in having a grandma like that. i have plenty of other examples, but why bother typing them out. they're all the same!

La Lechera, Thursday, 5 June 2014 14:13 (nine years ago) link

so i was riding my bike home and was stopped at a traffic light, and this guy about my age in a suit (THIS GUY) walking up the sidewalk near me was talking pretty loudly. i figured he was on a headset and heard something like "you have to watch out around here..." and slowly realized he was talking to me. i looked over and said, "sorry?" and he told me that the buses come up pretty fast and turn right here at the light and you should be careful.

i said, "i know what a red light does." he looked kind of annoyed. WTF? why does he look at me and think i need to be told basic things by a complete stranger? he walked away and i said "MEN EXPLAIN THINGS TO ME" and busted out laughing because what else can you do

seriously, THIS GUY (daria-g), Friday, 6 June 2014 01:16 (nine years ago) link

lol

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 6 June 2014 01:17 (nine years ago) link

it was so ridiculous. i live here, i'm on my own bike with a helmet and reflective gear and a a headlight, i'm obviously not a tourist on a bikeshare who doesn't know where they're going

seriously, THIS GUY (daria-g), Friday, 6 June 2014 01:24 (nine years ago) link

bahaha he sure helped ya out
My fave thing a guy has yelled at me on my bicycle is "YOU GET IT GIRL YOU GET IT" while snapping his fingers above his head
any other message not needed

just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Friday, 6 June 2014 01:26 (nine years ago) link

my friend was yelled at by a cyclist to "Lose some weight & move your fat ass" & then he followed her into a restaurant & told her to "keep those calories down"

so many levels of ARE YOU FUCKING SHITTING ME wtf

tbh I am still confused why the story didn't end with her murdering his stupid ass right there but jeeeesus christ

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 6 June 2014 01:32 (nine years ago) link

WHAT?!? A stranger? I.... I think I really would deck him.

ljubljana, Friday, 6 June 2014 02:02 (nine years ago) link

right?

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 6 June 2014 02:05 (nine years ago) link

Random: a (male) friend of Jesse and mine was walking down the street when another dude on a bike derisively told him, "Get a car!" and this remains one of our favorite miniature anecdotes.

carl agatha, Friday, 6 June 2014 02:30 (nine years ago) link

loooooool

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 6 June 2014 03:25 (nine years ago) link

That's common here iirc?

kinder, Friday, 6 June 2014 07:20 (nine years ago) link

Ooh wait HE was on a bike. Ha

kinder, Friday, 6 June 2014 07:21 (nine years ago) link

Ugh, I just wrote out a response to this, but my browser crashed and ate it. I guess the world didn't need to hear my ~THOTS~ anyway.

Just something about WTF are these episodes even supposed to provoke. Like, obviously laughter is a better reaction for you than anger, but I think men find laughter much more threatening than (impotent female) laughter. There are so many times when I don't even want to get angry or laugh, but just stare at them blankly and evenly and just say "and what on earth do you think you're trying to accomplish?" (yet being afraid that would learn to more obnoxious reprisals than the obnoxious behaviour to start with.)

But then, just feeling really sick of feeling so brutalised. Feeling sick of feeling afraid of male reprisal so much of the time.

I mean, obviously it's good to come on this thread, and laugh along with everyone else and go "OMG THAT'S RIDICULOUS" because that feels very freeing.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 6 June 2014 09:50 (nine years ago) link

My fave thing a guy has yelled at me on my bicycle is "YOU GET IT GIRL YOU GET IT" while snapping his fingers above his head
any other message not needed

― just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Friday, June 6, 2014 1:26 AM (8 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

:D :D :D

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 6 June 2014 10:02 (nine years ago) link

Some days I really wish there were one of those cute ~catchphrases~ for that particularly nasty intersection of misogyny, with bigotry against the mentally ill.

(Double points if it's one of those "women be ~crazy~!" assertions coming from one of those guys deflecting attention from his own bullying, gaslighting and generally refusing to notice how his own actions make women around him feel uncomfortable or threatened.)

Branwell with an N, Monday, 9 June 2014 15:30 (nine years ago) link

maybe we can coin one, cause that would be damned useful on practically a daily basis

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 10 June 2014 01:44 (nine years ago) link

there's this new lovely thing that guys are doing at work, where if a woman is being somewhat assertive (not even aggressive, per se... just... a normal work person?) the guys will go, "Hey, why are you YELLING, man..."

It's ONLY ever directed at a woman. A male friend of mine used to do it to me, too, asking, "Why are you yelling at me?" in a joking manner if I ever said anything above a whisper. I think it's supposed to cue some defensiveness, because that's nearly what always results. It's really ugly and rude, I think. What would be a good comeback?

homosexual II, Tuesday, 10 June 2014 22:35 (nine years ago) link

lately at work we have been talking about men telling us to "relax" or "calm down"

flatizza (harbl), Tuesday, 10 June 2014 22:39 (nine years ago) link

we get the full-on "don't be so emotional" when we are not "being emotional"

La Lechera, Tuesday, 10 June 2014 22:50 (nine years ago) link

oh that has definitely happened to me - after extended discussion over the phone with a guy as to why he needed to follow a different process going forward to avoid issues. i was deliberately using super diplomatic corporatespeak and never once raising my voice, though i did sound a bit irritated as it took a while for him to listen, because why would he listen to a younger woman tell him something.. it got back to me that he'd told his manager he got yelled at. also a woman once was complaining about the same thing because i didn't suddenly back down and apologize when she lashed out at me for no reason - somehow keeping an even tone becomes "yelling at her." also gotten the "don't get upset" when i stick to my point in a disagreement instead of saying the other person's right and shutting up.

i am a soft spoken type of person and have never yelled at anyone in the workplace, ever. i guess maybe i could really scare people if i actually did get angry? lately i have been cultivating this habit of appearing to have an incredibly great sense of humor about disagreements and calling out rude behavior, like it's really fun for me and not maddening in the least, because if i'm not smiling when i disagree with someone it must mean i'm upset/yelling/irrational/etc

seriously, THIS GUY (daria-g), Tuesday, 10 June 2014 23:00 (nine years ago) link

What would be a good comeback?

Punch in the dick?

carl agatha, Tuesday, 10 June 2014 23:26 (nine years ago) link

i got in a very very minor fender bender this weekend, (other party was a white male). First thing he did was call me the "c word" and I said that that's a misogynist term here, though maybe not where you come from (he had a British accent), and then he accused me of being racist. I laughed and said, that's not how racism works and he clearly isn't from around here. Later, presumably as a result of standing my ground, he referred to me as a man-hating lesbian.

sarahell, Tuesday, 10 June 2014 23:32 (nine years ago) link

The Daily Mail calls your incident "political correctness gone mad."

just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Tuesday, 10 June 2014 23:34 (nine years ago) link

Oh ffffuuuuuuu.... sarahell, our lot can be the worst. And the idea of daria-g as a casual yeller is laughable.

ljubljana, Tuesday, 10 June 2014 23:36 (nine years ago) link

I was really impressed that he believed that my assertively asking him to give me his insurance information before I gave him mine was an indicator of my sexual preferences.

sarahell, Tuesday, 10 June 2014 23:37 (nine years ago) link

Honestly I think car accidents bring out the worst behavior in most people, me included.

sarahell, Tuesday, 10 June 2014 23:37 (nine years ago) link

Unfortunately I'm picturing him as the husband of a lovely friend of mine, because he would behave exactly like this. How she ended up with him is a very long and frustrating story.

ljubljana, Tuesday, 10 June 2014 23:40 (nine years ago) link

I wish I knew a good riposte, Mandy. Sometimes a student will accuse me of "yelling" under similar circumstances, and I joke that "you guys know I'm just naturally loud," but the power dynamic in our two situations is different.

just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Tuesday, 10 June 2014 23:40 (nine years ago) link

Mand33, sorry.

just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Tuesday, 10 June 2014 23:40 (nine years ago) link

Also sometimes I will deliberately lower my voice to about 80% of normal, and maybe 20% deeper than normal, very serious and flat affect, and a poker face, and fix my body language to be as neutral/pro-styles as possible, and make a lot of sustained eye contact, and improve my diction a little. Which is aggressive, but certainly not "yelling."

just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Tuesday, 10 June 2014 23:44 (nine years ago) link

xp - Mandee - my first instinct would be to smile, make a "c'mere" motion with my hand and then whisper while smiling, "stop being such a fucking baby."

sarahell, Tuesday, 10 June 2014 23:44 (nine years ago) link

Anyway I have learned that saying, "I'm NOT yelling!!" doesn't work.

just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Tuesday, 10 June 2014 23:47 (nine years ago) link

but that might not be appropriate for your workplace :/

sarahell, Tuesday, 10 June 2014 23:47 (nine years ago) link

I'd probably put them on the spot and ask what makes you think I'm yelling? In a rly calm voice. When ppl accuse me of being histrionic 1) they clearly have never seen me get genuinely upset and 2) it makes me feel xtra chill bc I know they feel threatened by me and are trying to intimidate and it's not working. Haha.

La Lechera, Tuesday, 10 June 2014 23:48 (nine years ago) link

tell him to stop being so emotional

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 11 June 2014 01:31 (nine years ago) link

Oh god, yeah. In man-speak "she was YELLING AT ME" means basically "she contradicted in any way." Like the moment one of these men encounters any kind of resistance from a woman, they are instantly 3 years old and back in the nursery and MUMMY IS BEING UNFAIR!!!11

I mean, IDGAF, I am perfectly prepared to yell if that is what gets the job done. I realised long ago that "nice lady" was never going to be a trope accessible to me, so why fucking bother trying to confine myself to the ~accepted emotional range~ (or lack thereof)? If I'm going to be accused of "yelling" if my voice is normal, my reaction is something along the lines of "you want yelling? I'll show you fucking yelling." Sometimes it works, and the dude simmers the fuck down because it is *so* unexpected. Actual female anger (not ~hysteria~ but anger as controlled aggressive display) is so unacceptable. But, it does mean that that dude will be afraid of me for the rest of time. But then again, so many people are afraid of me anyway, what's one more. *shrugs*

None of this is helpful, I realise. And I realise it's probably counter-productive. I am ~setting the team back~ by playing the Angry Woman. But, y'know, you're wrong if you do, you're wrong if you don't. Welcome to being a woman.

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 08:49 (nine years ago) link

I don't know, it's like the power of expectations. And subverting an expectation can be a form of power, I guess?

I have this real problem with "Other People's Narratives". It's really, really hard, when people constantly treat you as if you were X (e.g. 'angry', 'crazy', whatever), they are just going to fit your behaviour into their paradigm, no matter what your behaviour is. It's hard not to get caught up in other people's narratives, and I have a very strong streak of "treat me like a baby, I will act like one." I am aware of the emotional role that has been cast for me, and the pressure to conform to that role is... immense.

But the power to shrug and say "that's your narrative, not mine" and go mine own way? That's hard. If someone is trying really hard to cast you as the crazy, emotional ~angry~ lady, to just respond with a long, even, no-bullshit stare, and be all "I'm not playing this game, that's in your head, not mine." (But equally, when someone is trying to intimidate you into never contradicting them by trying to cast you into ~nice~, demure, mummy-lady... y'know, fuck that, too. Realising that men are soooo afraid of female anger makes the threat of female anger a very potent tool. In the office, being seen as "the kind of woman who *could* go off" is more effective than ever actually going off. Oh, but of course, doing that, is being ~manipulative~, rather than, y'know, an actual effective defence. It makes me so angry, the way we are *constantly* expected to manoeuvre and dodge and generally compensate for men and their weird attitudes about women, but god forbid, you ever develop any coping strategies, then that's "manipulative")

Blargh.

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 09:02 (nine years ago) link

Man, I was in such a GOOD MOOD this morning, because I went to a botanical walk given by this guy:

http://www.plant-lore.com/

last night, and it was so great, and I learned so much (haha, I am probably not the kind of person you should tell how to identify Hemlock) and I was feeling so great. And then five minutes on ILX and I'm feeling icky and ugh. I'm gonna go and look at Vetches and Vetchlings for a bit.

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 09:07 (nine years ago) link

If I'm going to be accused of "yelling" if my voice is normal, my reaction is something along the lines of "you want yelling? I'll show you fucking yelling."

I am glad I am not the only one who does this! Thank you!

sarahell, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 09:11 (nine years ago) link

(I just had this momentary fantasy of the next time some bloke accuses me of "yelling" when I'm speaking normally but assertively, to change my voice deliberately to the "cooing at babies ickle-diddums" girly voice and say something like "is this more the ~tone of voice~ that you can understand?" but that would probably get me in more trouble than just outright yelling.) :-/

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 09:26 (nine years ago) link

or "take your unresolved mommy issues to your therapist. don't take them out on me"

sarahell, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 09:34 (nine years ago) link

Haha, totally, yeah!

(But, as more sensible brain takes over)...

Delightful fantasy, but probably not. Because 1) Having been on the receiving end of crazy-shaming so many times, I am really loathe to use "therapy" or "unresolved issues" as a zing or a stick to beat someone with, no matter how appropriate. And 2) I don't actually think that the vast majority of this shit *is* unresolved mummy issues, I think it's just the constant, pervasive societal (and individual) level sexism that teaches men that women are only ever present to smooth and lubricate the ~feels~ of men, and should never display emotions or motivation or requirements of their own. And though I am sure that there are many men with mummy issues, that totally play into and reinforce this whole mess, it's deeper than mummy.

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 09:58 (nine years ago) link

Aaargh everyone OTM.

OTM about "why are you getting so upset/irrational?" when stating yr opinion exactly as rationally (or more so) and forcefully (or less so) as they are.

OTM about being typecast and abt realising that I am not pretty or non-schlubby enough to be received as Nice Lady Is Being Nice so why bother? oh, because any minor infraction of niceness will be totally put down as Hey Look At The Crazy Shrieking Ugly Fat Woman Who Is So Stupid And Loud And Totally Flipping Out For No Reason.

And OTM about the poisonousness of the whole women = irrational, men = logical unemotional fact-diviners thing.

Was reading some article about the importance of teaching young children and in particular boys (since the girls get told parts 1 and 3 anyway) "this is an emotion, it is OK to have emotions, and it is also OK to say 'I have an emotion but I could calm down for five minutes before acting on it'" for their own good. And, yeah probably that is for their own good! But maybe also just as a tiny unsettling of the idea "the thoughts in my head are the logical result of Universal Truths as processed by a series of mathematical functions, and the thoughts in YOUR* head are spontaneous bubbles of emotion, and if they disagree I get to tell you you're being shrieky and hysterical"

(* where YOU are usually a woman but sometimes another man whose masculinity is obviously in question as a result of this suspected feeling-having)

the ghosts of dead pom-bears (a passing spacecadet), Wednesday, 11 June 2014 09:59 (nine years ago) link

Haha but '

"this is an emotion, it is OK to have emotions, and it is also OK to say 'I have an emotion but I could calm down for five minutes before acting on it'" for their own good.
" <- this is basically my life. Like, a good part of the past year and a half of therapy has been learning the methods and ways of doing this. I've got the phrase "respond, not react" echoing in my head a lot. (But basically, in the failure of accessing "react" mode, usually I just shut down and don't respond at all. Which, I suppose, is its own reply. Some actions/statements really don't require anything more than an eyeroll.) Learning this stuff as an adult is as hard as learning a second language as an adult: you *can* do it, but it takes a lot of practice and thinking about, and it never comes quite naturally, it is always something you have to stop and think and put into practice, rather than something which comes instinctually.

(And there's a part of me that wants to stamp my feet and shout "if I can fucking learn to do it, at the age of 40, why can't ~AAAAALLLLLL MEN~?" This is not a healthy emotion.)

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 10:10 (nine years ago) link

I have a v good male friend where the only time I've come close to pure hated of him is when he did this. 'i'm not getting angry? Wtf?' 'you are! You are getting angry!' Until upshot I got really angry.

It is one of my pet hates and I need to learn a more effective response.

kinder, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 10:26 (nine years ago) link

(xp) OK, yes, to be honest I am not super-good at reacting well to emotions myself (I do "fly off handle", "burst into tears" and "remain silent so as not to burst into tears but seethe about for weeks even though I probably totally misunderstood anyway"), but I've never been left in any doubt that my emotions were emotions, and were unseemly and illogical!

I would like to learn more about overriding that default emotional burst-reaction though. When I was waiting for a depresso-therapy appt once, the only reading matter in the waiting room was an anger management booklet, and I found it p. interesting.

I do have a temper that gets away from me in ways I find super-embarrassing - I can shamefully recall almost toddler-esque tantrums from the past couple of years over the most minor of irritations or perceived slights, plus a whole bunch of nasty "why did I even have to get that dig in when I knew it wasn't worth it" moments - but I suppose it's never been in the top 3 things I've wanted "fixed" by therapy, so I've never really got onto managing it.

the ghosts of dead pom-bears (a passing spacecadet), Wednesday, 11 June 2014 10:49 (nine years ago) link

I have a v good male friend where the only time I've come close to pure hated of him is when he did this. 'i'm not getting angry? Wtf?' 'you are! You are getting angry!' Until upshot I got really angry.

It is one of my pet hates and I need to learn a more effective response.

Ugh yes. See also "Don't be so defensive!"

carl agatha, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 10:54 (nine years ago) link

"I was just kidding, can't you take a joke?"

Being accused of humorlessness is my personal curse. Don't get so upset!

La Lechera, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 11:49 (nine years ago) link

It's almost as if they're trying to create a situation where they get to tell you what to do or how to feel.

show me new tweets (suzy), Wednesday, 11 June 2014 12:29 (nine years ago) link

Wait wait sorry to interrupt, but can I back up?

Man, I was in such a GOOD MOOD this morning, because I went to a botanical walk given by this guy:

http://www.plant-lore.com/

THIS. SOUNDS. AMAZING. I want to *be* that guy someday. You guys don't live in Tucson, so I can share my favorite fact that the golden barrel cactus always grows south! It is nature's compass, and it does not give a fuck about your standard map orientation.

just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Wednesday, 11 June 2014 14:05 (nine years ago) link

OMG, Crabbits, he was sooooo great. So knowledgeable (but a little bit batty, in all the right ways) and telling us which plants you could eat, and which tasted nice and which were "well, you *could* eat it, but I wouldn't advise it, on account of the taste..." And relating flowers' smells to animals such as goat or mouse (which most of us did not know what they smelled like). I picked up a guide so I can see when he is doing other wildflower walks on commons I know.

That is amazing about the golden barrel cactus. I love how plants know more about directions than we do, e.g. moss always on the North side of trees and the like. And how do they have that awareness? Is it magnetic, or is it on account of the angle of the sun?

I really wish we could have a ROLLING BOTANY THREAD where we could share facts like, golden barrel cactus always grows South. Or Brambles reproduce without pollen, as clones. So every different genotype of Bramble is actually a distinct species! That would be the best thread ever, to me, right now. (Except every single thread I either start or participate in lately except this one seems to get invaded by specific dudes following me from thread to thread howling about misandry, so I expect even a thread about botany would get derailed by some guy who simply could not resist howling "NOT AAAALLLL STAMENS!!!!!" at me.) I am typing this kinda in the spirit of LOL but also kinda :-/

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 14:35 (nine years ago) link

I would love to go on a botanical walk! I love walks/hikes with smart people who tell me about things. Jeff and I went on vacation September before last to a "science ranch" and that is basically what it was. Hikes with a geologist and biologist, lectures, star gazing with an astronomer at night. It was maybe the best vacation ever. Well, going to London was probably the best. But then the science vacation.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 14:38 (nine years ago) link

SCIENCE RANCH!!!! OMG, this does sound like the best holiday ever. Geology, botany, astronomy, all in one cool and interesting location...? Like, science camp for grown ups. I love it!

(I also found out that the South London Botanical Institute are going on a field trip to Yorkshire to lookit a MOOR, I can just imagine a bunch of botany geeks going up on the moor and studying lichens and mosses and furze bushes and this sounds like the best time ever.)

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 14:41 (nine years ago) link

It was in the mountains in Colorado and it was absolutely gorgeous. Sigh. I'm feeling wistful about such a vacation now.

A field trip to look at a moor is super appealing!

carl agatha, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 14:43 (nine years ago) link

M oors are so romantic to me, as a person who read The Secret Garden way too many times growing up.

just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Wednesday, 11 June 2014 14:45 (nine years ago) link

Ditto. I never read The Secret Garden but moors definitely feature prominently in my favorite books. I would like to visit a moor, a heath, and a craggy, windswept cliff, please.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 14:46 (nine years ago) link

ohhhh yeah, bring the heaths

just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Wednesday, 11 June 2014 14:49 (nine years ago) link

Mountains in Colorado? This science ranch gets better and better! I bet that was so beautiful. (I have never been to Colorado, but just flying over it in an aeroplane, the landscape looked so astonishing!)

Moors are one of those things that are just... aaah, I could get all Emily Dickenson about them, except I have actually seen them. I know Cornish moors very well, they're kind of amazing places that are like deserts - they seem barren and lifeless unless you know them really well, and then everything seems so alive and throbbing with vitality. (There's a Daphne Du Maurier quote about Cornish moors I might dig out). Where moors run down to craggy, windswept cliffs, that is the actual best. (Which is Cornwall and Yorkshire, basically.)

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 14:50 (nine years ago) link

I'm literally sitting here with my chin resting in my hand and sighing at the thought.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 14:57 (nine years ago) link

Found that Du Maurier quote:

It was a silent, desolate country, though, vast and untouched by human hand; on the high tors the slabs of stone leant against one another in strange shapes and forms; massive sentinels who had stood there since the hands of God first fashioned them.

Some where shaped like giant furniture, with monstrous chairs and twisted tables, and sometimes the smaller crumbling stones lay on the summit of the hill like a giant himself, his huge, recumbent form darkening the heather and the course tufted grass. There were long stones that stood on end, balancing themselves in a queer miraculous way, as though they leant against the wind; and there were flat altar-stones whose smooth and polished faces stared up towards the sky, awaiting a sacrifice that never came.

Strange winds blew from nowhere; they crept along the surface of the grass, and the grass shivered; they breathed upon the little pools of rain in the hollowed stones, and the pools rippled. Sometimes the wind shouted and cried, and the cry echoed in the crevices and moaned, and was lost again. There was a silence on the tors that belonged to another age; an age that is past and vanished as though it had never been, an age when man did not exist, but pagan footsteps trod upon the hills. And there was a stillness in the air, and stranger, older peace, that was not the peace of God.

Isn't that just the best? I wish I were there right now.

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 15:02 (nine years ago) link

That is lovely.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 15:06 (nine years ago) link

Carl, I just wanted to say: I wish there were a "like" button beside so many of your posts lately.

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 15:14 (nine years ago) link

i'm generally in a pretty good mood too. i'm going hiking in the woods in 2 days w mr and i just finished sewing a cape i started to make like 2 years ago? 18 months? sunday is my 1 year anniversary of having my very own drum set and learning to use it. feeling pretty good about myself in general, tbh. pardon the braggin but honestly i have no one else to tell but this thread. to write to a friend and tell her how great i'm feeling is across the board inappropriate, but somehow telling this thread is ok. i dunno. it probably isn't ok but i'm gonna do it anyway.

La Lechera, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 15:37 (nine years ago) link

omg I saw a woman this morning wearing a cape, or maybe more like a capelet? And she looked AMAZING. I am very excited for how amazing you are going to look in your cape.

This is a good thread for bragging!

carl agatha, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 15:40 (nine years ago) link

La Lech's cape is amazing. Definitely worth bragging about.

Also I love that Du Maurier quote - combined w/ the "spooky Brit TV" bump re: Children of the Stones really has me desiring some countryside desolation.

emil.y, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 15:44 (nine years ago) link

Isn't that from the adaptation with Jessica Brown Findlay that was just on BBC1, where everyone bitched about the mumbling?

show me new tweets (suzy), Wednesday, 11 June 2014 15:56 (nine years ago) link

Brag away, babe. Capes are great! Playing drums is fantastic. Gotta have a place for shouting "you go girl!" and slapping one another high fives as well as punching dudes in the dick and upsetting the patriarchs of ILX with our shrewish misandrist ways. ;-)

Oh, I need to lookit the "spooky Brit TV" thread because I really really want to see Children Of The Stones again; have not seen it since I was a wee tot and it scared the shit out of me, then, so I'd love to see what it's like now.

I copied the quote out of the book. I have no idea about the adaptation, except everyone everywhere except Cornwall complained about the mumbling, and everyone in Cornwall complained "you call that a *Cornish* accent? That's Bristol! Up country! not bleddy Cornish at all!"

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 16:06 (nine years ago) link

holy shit LL I just remembered that you were in my dream last night!

Mr Veg and I were in a bar and there was a cool jazz improv group playing and I said to Mr Veg 'Hey see that drummer? That's LL. she's only been playing for a year, isn't she amazing?' and you were laying down righteous beats with those cool brush things and it was a p rad dream

:D

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 11 June 2014 16:10 (nine years ago) link

ha! that's awesome! i don't have any brushes but i am going to make a trip to the drum supply store (?) for my anniversary.

also i am really self-conscious about bragging.

La Lechera, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 16:18 (nine years ago) link

This thread made me hungry for other biomes – think I am gonna hit Mt. Lemmon this weekend; they have seven different biomes there. Oh yeah!

It's good to practice bragging sometimes.

just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Wednesday, 11 June 2014 16:32 (nine years ago) link

I know you are not fishing for cape-liments but I v much admire your cape, and that you made it!

just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Wednesday, 11 June 2014 16:33 (nine years ago) link

Some shit I am excited about: 1. my boyfriend's family really likes me and is nice to me, which is very weird after my former marriage, where his family was mean to me and blamed me for everything; 2. consequently they got me a composter, which I very much wanted; 3. I shredded up a whole bunch of unneeded work-related papers (felt good) to turn into a carbon source; 4. it means I am feeling cheery about having a big tupperware full of scraps in my fridge.

DECAY!!!

just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Wednesday, 11 June 2014 16:38 (nine years ago) link

where was the science ranch!? i wanna go!

homosexual II, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 16:39 (nine years ago) link

thanks! i had a lot of help from a friend, who via this process has endeared himself to me for life, so i feel like i got a cape AND a friend. that's my kind of way to pass the time, yknow? he is a costume designer and can sew literally anything. his cape is so beautiful that it makes him look like he needs a throne. it's amazing. we have the same buttons though!

i do need to focus on being positive in a way that i feel comfortable but also allows me to celebrate whatever i please. i think sometimes i hear people around me complaining about this and that and it's partially an effort to not be someone who other people complain about. not only that, but i don't have any kids to be proud of so i just have myself, and i am sometimes proud of myself. i guess that's not such a terrible thing.

La Lechera, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 16:39 (nine years ago) link

I think it's actually really important to learn how to be proud of yourself in a way that's positive and life-affirming (but not in a way that's smug or alienating to others) and it's a hard balance to strike, but what's the alternative? Self loathing or self doubt or constant self effacement? Which is not great to be around, either. I think that burst of pleasure and "yay, this is a great thing" that invites others to participate in your joy is a good thing for everyone around you.

I am jealous of your composter, Crabbits. I mean, we have food waste compost that the council collects. And obviously there is the MASSIVE INDUSTRIAL COMPOST HEAPS at the community garden. (Which gets chipped and mulched and put back into the vegetable beds in winter)

But I wish I had the space and the garden to compost at home. Decay is so interesting, the process of rotting is really kind of amazing. They've got into different schools of woods management locally, and councils have been leaving blown down trees in situ more and more, and watching the slow process of decay and how logs break down, and provide habitat for bugs and insects and STAG BEETLES and then become nurseries for younger plants... it's just amazing. I love watching it so much!

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 18:33 (nine years ago) link

LL, I love that you made a sewing and design friend! Some of the best friends I have made in life have been other knitters. Sharing skillz together is an awesome way to bond with people! Also gives you someone to *share* positive accomplishments. No one else is going to recognize how much work your thing took!

It took me a long time to learn to say "hey I did a thing" and it is a good skill to have.

just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Wednesday, 11 June 2014 18:42 (nine years ago) link

sciencegetaways.com/science-ranch-2012/

They do it every year!

carl agatha, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 18:44 (nine years ago) link

*Suggests group gurl thread field trip to science ranch*

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 18:45 (nine years ago) link

xps fwiw none of what you posted had the slightest whiff of bragging imo

i think it sucks when you get to place or point where you feel bad sharing the positive stuff in your life. it's good to be happy and proud of yourself, i don't think you can really be of positive service to other ppl unless you have at least some small piece of happiness or pride in your life.

just1n3, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 18:52 (nine years ago) link

I have happiness, I just feel uncomfortable sharing it! Thanks though -- I've always had trouble releasing anything from my inner thoughts.

La Lechera, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 19:07 (nine years ago) link

I will brag:

We just had a meeting and were joking about how to turn our team meetings into drinking games and one coworker suggested "drink every time carl agatha makes a wise crack and everybody laughs." Granted, there's a low bar to humor among a bunch of attorneys specializing in a notoriously esoteric and non-humorous area of law but still, it made me feel good.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 19:27 (nine years ago) link

That's awesome, CA.

OK me too. I got an email from someone at work recently thanking me for always being so professional and reliable. That felt pretty great even though it took me a second to realize that he wasn't being sarcastic.

This morning on a very crowded bus a lady shouted over two people to tell me that she loved my haircut an that it looked gorgeous on me. That was pretty neat too.

I am doing super intense and hard therapy a lot right now but it's kind of awesome and I'm proud of myself for it.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 11 June 2014 19:36 (nine years ago) link

You should be. That is hard work!

carl agatha, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 19:49 (nine years ago) link

Oh man somebody put a copy of Lean In in the mother's room (a room set aside in a workplace for nursing mother's to pump breastmilk, for those unfamiliar). I'm side eyeing that so hard.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 20:37 (nine years ago) link

My feeling is that if a woman leans in, some arsehole will find a way to look down her blouse.

show me new tweets (suzy), Wednesday, 11 June 2014 21:01 (nine years ago) link

HA

carl agatha, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 21:03 (nine years ago) link

I've been visiting with family recently, and one of my cousins said "Aunt J (my grandma) you remind me of Grandma B (my grandma's sister). Whenever we compliment you, you say something negative about yourself." Is it a family thing? Or a generational thing?

I recently had a friend tell me he likes hanging out with me because I don't talk about how I hate myself or put myself down constantly.

tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 21:56 (nine years ago) link

I have a posi-brag! My volunteer newsletter got a lot of praise last week, including maybe was shared with a whole coalition of other neighborhood groups as an example of how to make a great community newsletter (I wasn't at that event but I was told beforehand that they wanted to share it). People have noticed! My neighbors in my block assoc are all proud that we have the BEST newsletter of any neighborhood association, like they won't say it to me directly but there's a lot of competition to be the BEST at things like lushest gardens, nicest houses, cleanest streets, coolest public events, and I'm glad I'm holding up my end so ppl can be proud of us. :D

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Wednesday, 11 June 2014 22:01 (nine years ago) link

I dunno; just years of experience have taught me that whenever I try to do a posi-brag about myself, someone (usually a man, but y'know NOOOOTTT AAAALLLL MEEEENNNN) will always pop up to tell me I'm not all that and to get over myself. So it's really hard for me to say something good about myself without a kind of automatic flinch. I'm insulting myself before someone gets the chance to.

And for years, I kinda believed that I had to do this constant ... I dunno. Compensation? Like there was this constant need to big up ~things I was doing~ or ~projects I was involved with~ because the kind of validation of "lookit this record I've made, or picture I've drawn or story I've written" was a substitute for that inability to ever believe that people might like the actual me. (And most people don't like the actual me anyway!) But it becomes kind of a vicious circle, because people see that as arrogance or attention-seeking or whatever, so slap you down harder.

Until it gets to the point where there's such a panoply of hatred to choose from, like, I can get whatever negative self-image of myself validated from any number of helpful people getting ~irrationally angry~ about me on the internet!

This isn't fun to talk about, though; I'd rather talk about compost or excellent capes or neighbourhood association newletter competitiveness (it is funny how community groups turn out the same, the world over.)

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 22:18 (nine years ago) link

i'm wearing a cape right now!
ok it's a fleece throw tied around my neck because I couldn't be bothered to go and find a jumper

kinder, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 22:20 (nine years ago) link

i sometimes worry that my friends are being dishonest when they compliment me, tell me they love me, that I'm awesome, smart, talented, whatever ... that i'm part of some enabling self-deception ... but then I am a good friend to my friends, so ... maybe not? Maybe I am actually making good decisions about people?

sarahell, Wednesday, 11 June 2014 22:29 (nine years ago) link

lol @ kinder :) Totally something I would do!

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Wednesday, 11 June 2014 23:31 (nine years ago) link

LOL you gurls and yr capes. Let's have a "what do you look like in your cape" thread.

(Alas, I have no cape, but I do have a weird cape-like shawl thing?)

Branwell with an N, Thursday, 12 June 2014 07:14 (nine years ago) link

Ugh, I was gonna try a new powerwalk route through a different common, but word has just gone out on twitter that there is a flasher "working" that part of the common.

On one hand, I'm kinda thinking "oh, how quaint, how 70s, an actual flasher" but then on the other hand, my mind is thinking "these guys are known to escalate" and then thinking about women are being warned to stay off that part of the common, and just getting angry, like it's my fucking common, I'll jog there if you want, and trying to weigh that against physical safety. And these tiny incidents become a focal point for basically what is a tidal wave of ~stuff one just puts up with~.

Branwell with an N, Thursday, 12 June 2014 07:41 (nine years ago) link

BB, my anti-street harassment working group is really really close to finishing our foundational statement--basically our manifesto--and after meeting last night for some tweaks I am so, so excited about it and how different it is from everything else out there. And I can't wait to link it here ASAP. I think you'll like it.

One thing that's become apparent to us is that when women first join up, they can be really angry and traumatized and not ready to grapple w a "community accountability"-style critique because of their individual hurts and the need to address those, to stem the bleeding first. Just to GET to a meeting, you have to leave your house, and that means it starts all over again (actually we have a running joke that we always seem to get street harassed on our way to meet each other). It's real. That damage is real and valid and you're not alone in feeling the psychological drag of it. I'm so glad your gardening is a healing thing/space for you that brings you back to your self.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Thursday, 12 June 2014 09:58 (nine years ago) link

That sounds really interesting and I can't wait to read it!

But at the same time, while not *denying* the reality of street harassment, I kind of need the acknowledgement that many women, including myself, have been in situations of receiving abuse without even needing to leave the house. (I'm not even talking about relationship violence, which I have been on the receiving end of.) But that The Internet is the "New High Street" and the experiences that women have here are as real and as traumatising and destabilising as the ones on the Street. (In fact, in some cases worse, because one cannot see one's attacker, it is much, much harder to judge the level of threat, from "merely creepy and annoying" to "genuinely alarming.") It has, however, been really heartening, in recent days, that it's almost like... other people have suddenly become able to *see* persistent and low-level problematic behaviour, and not just see it, but name it aloud for what it is, and confront the offender.

Like, I don't feel quite so much like I'm constantly going "did you also just see that, or did I imagine it?" To have other people see it and name it and confront it, that's made me feel a lot less alone, which helps with not feeling quite so frightened and angry. So I just wanted to say thank you to people have stepped up recently, I do really appreciate that.

Anyway, speaking of gardens and woods and ~healing spaces~ I need need need to finish my project on the Ghosts of the Great North Wood today! I have been putting it off long enough.

Branwell with an N, Thursday, 12 June 2014 10:39 (nine years ago) link

looking at the lazy U page is making me long for winter, strangely enough!!

homosexual II, Thursday, 12 June 2014 16:47 (nine years ago) link

But that The Internet is the "New High Street" and the experiences that women have here are as real and as traumatising and destabilising as the ones on the Street.

Yeah, totally. The internet is a necessary part of normal life now. When someone gets rape & death threats on Twitter, police depts frequently approach it like, "Well then just stop going on the Twitter, this seems self-explanatory, why would you go back to a place where you were harassed" which, oh excuse me for trying to, you know, LIVE. Also there are still ppl who behave like this is a reasonable strategy to irl SH too, as a friend's parents raised her to believe, "Just go straight to the store and back," "This would never have happened if you'd worn a bra," etc. Which then achieves the ultimate goal of discouraging women from claiming space in public or at least making them too afraid to resist oppressive behaviors.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Thursday, 12 June 2014 17:19 (nine years ago) link

PS I quickly ran to the store on my bday dressed up for my party in a blouse w/o a bra and dudes could NOT STOP, that is the most I've been harassed in A WHILE.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Thursday, 12 June 2014 17:21 (nine years ago) link

i have a cape but it's crushed velvet and ... yeah it's not a thing to wear even around the house without dying of laughter

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 12 June 2014 18:08 (nine years ago) link

...which sounds like an excellent reason to wear it?

Branwell with an N, Thursday, 12 June 2014 18:29 (nine years ago) link

only on halloween lol

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 12 June 2014 18:41 (nine years ago) link

Therapy was worth every damn penny that I'm able to actually just eyeroll and laugh about this kind of thing now. :-)

you go PUNCHING yourself in... THE DICK! (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 12 June 2014 20:04 (nine years ago) link

Stellar :)

kinder, Thursday, 12 June 2014 20:07 (nine years ago) link

hmm maybe I need to get in on some of that cape-pos therapy :D

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 12 June 2014 21:01 (nine years ago) link

multiple xps to inorbit and BB

I feel you on Internet discussion and how it's approached. Years ago, when I first started going online, I was much more direct and less inclined to couch stuff with a million qualifiers and disclaimers. (This used to get me mistaken for being male all the time, lol). I still have that to a certain extent but much less so, and it's for exactly the reasons you state. Plus, you know, you can never tell if one of your SHOCKING AND PROVOCATIVE opinions is going to be the one that hits the wrong person and if you then get to be one of those women who gets rape threats for having a fucking opinion. No thanks.

Eventually, after one experience of being talked over by men who knew my life better than I did, I decided "fuck it". Not worth it. This board's not as bad as some I've been on, but I've seen/experienced enough shit and eyerolled at the kind of whataboutery and derailing that even supposedly well-meaning types engage in that as far as worthwhile wastes of my time go, it ranks somewhere below reading Macklemore/Robespierre fanfiction.

(Not that ilx is crying out for any of my opinions, but your posts resonated with me).

Also there are still ppl who behave like this is a reasonable strategy to irl SH too, as a friend's parents raised her to believe, "Just go straight to the store and back," "This would never have happened if you'd worn a bra," etc.

In the end, it just has the same effect, doesn't it? More women see how talking about stuff online like this is met, think "fuck that" and the "well-meaning" derailers achieve the same goal as misogynists - fewer women in the discussion.

gyac, Thursday, 12 June 2014 21:02 (nine years ago) link

Haha oh dear, I only just realised that I deleted the part of the post that made it clear my remark about therapy was a non-sequitor. Which makes it an even funnier sequitor. Yes; Cape-Positive Therapy. I highly recommend it!

gyac, Gurl Thread is the one place on ILX that is crying for your opinions. I completely get what you're saying, and appreciate it. (Ironically, this thread is one of the few ones where I will use the qualifiers and couching and disclaimers; not because I feel I have to ~justify my girlpinion~ but in order to just show that I really respect the others posters on this thread, and their opinions, even when they differ from mine?)

Now, I'm sorry, but I'm just going to back up and... Robespierre fanfiction? *tents fingers*

you go PUNCHING yourself in... THE DICK! (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 12 June 2014 21:11 (nine years ago) link

Mon dieu!

emil.y, Thursday, 12 June 2014 21:13 (nine years ago) link

OMG, I just remembered that. o_0

mon dieu!

you go PUNCHING yourself in... THE DICK! (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 12 June 2014 21:16 (nine years ago) link

iirc this find was the result of a conversation with a friend about the greatest troll fics out there. I think the communist Harry Potter one is a bit better. Unlike communist Harry, though, there are three of these.

hopefully nobody goes blind as a result of this trollery?

Robespierre nodded. “I understand. And I'm happy to inform you, Macklemore, that we agreed unanimously to let you perform. But... may I step inside a moment? I must speak with you about something... unrelated to politics.”

Macklemore sensed something important was going to happen, but he was unsure what. He moved aside to let the Candle of Arras inside his hotel room.

gyac, Thursday, 12 June 2014 21:25 (nine years ago) link

BRANWELL have you read Hilary mantel's a place of greater safety? It is great and features Robespierre. sorry if this is a noob question. These days i am reading all mantel all the time.

horseshoe, Thursday, 12 June 2014 21:25 (nine years ago) link

Need! To! Read! both of those! (except it is bedtime now so I cannot possibly start on something I am sure will be stimulating in a hilarious way.)

I am secretly kind of a fan of the worst kinds of troll fics (though come to think of it, really, who isn't?) and that just sounds... so utterly trolly I can't resist.

horseshoe, I have not read that one. I swerve between loving Mantell and being scared shitless of/by her, but I recently read her autobiography and she is such an... odd person, you start to understand where the oddness of her stories come from. So I shall definitely add that one to the reading list!

you go PUNCHING yourself in... THE DICK! (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 12 June 2014 21:42 (nine years ago) link

mantel is gr8, cosign horseshoe

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 12 June 2014 22:46 (nine years ago) link

Mon dieu!

― emil.y, Thursday, June 12, 2014 2:13 PM (1 hour ago)

emil.y!!!!

This reminds me -- remember back in the day when were gonna get blingee jackets?

sarahell, Thursday, 12 June 2014 23:04 (nine years ago) link

I knew someone in college who was obsessed with Robespierre so if she ended up writing fanfic I would not be surprised. #notalljacobins

tokyo rosemary, Friday, 13 June 2014 15:13 (nine years ago) link

I just have to say that Macklemore/Robespierre part 1 was a work of genius and great joy! I laughed; I cried; It was better than Cats.

But then the follow-up two were such a disappointment.

you go PUNCHING yourself in... THE DICK! (Branwell with an N), Friday, 13 June 2014 15:45 (nine years ago) link

OMG the fucking irony! Remember how I was saying upthread that street harassment really just isn't ever a problem for me (and I was thinking about this, like recognising that it is a massive problem for other women, but wondering if it's weird that I never get it (though internet harassment/rape threats in DMs/comment boxes is a much more familiar pattern of problematic male behaviour for me))

LAST NIGHT I GOT STREET HARASSED!

Like, WTF, was it that football thing that emboldened them? It was just such a complete surprise, because it never happens. Like, I was just standing at the top of my street, talking to a friend, and you have to imagine 2 middle aged ladies, both in our 40s, and I was so surprised, like... "you're going to holler at *us*?" I think my actual reaction was just to start laughing because it was so completely out of the blue and absurd. It was deeply perplexing, more than anything else.

But I guess, now I feel like I can understand better or whatever, the conversation on street harassment.

you go PUNCHING yourself in... THE DICK! (Branwell with an N), Monday, 16 June 2014 08:17 (nine years ago) link

I think the only thing anyone's ever yelled at me is "HALLOWEEN IS IN OCTOBER" and that was bcz, y'know, high school gothitude.

when you call my name it's like a prickly pear (Crabbits), Monday, 16 June 2014 15:38 (nine years ago) link

A recent report with not very good methodology despite being shared widely around the internet over the last couple of weeks found that per their sampling, 65% of women reported having been street harassed in their lives.

The problem with that number is that depending on where you live and who you are, some of those people are experiencing ZERO SH and some are experiencing it 5x a day. A survey that doesn't over-sample at-risk populations or figure out some way to make that number more representative is just a terrible way to try to prove anything. The data isn't meaningful.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Monday, 16 June 2014 15:41 (nine years ago) link

i dunno. because humans have a wide range of harassment thresholds, it seems kinda impossible to get any "meaningful data" on this topic because it's so extremely subjective. why even try?

La Lechera, Monday, 16 June 2014 16:15 (nine years ago) link

Because if you don't have data, and you say "Street harassment is a problem," some ding dong is going to be like, "I know ten women and none of them have every been harassed so I don't know why you want to focus your energy on something that doesn't exist."

Fun fact: the amount of street harassment I received roughly tripled when I was visibly pregnant. I also got aggressively hit on by two CTA bus drivers. Correlation is not causation and all but it was weird.

carl agatha, Monday, 16 June 2014 16:22 (nine years ago) link

i know, and that's totally true. sorry about the bus drivers. geez. that's gross.

but i have to add that kinda think that the rush for DATA is a distraction -- i always want to respond by saying "don't make me 'prove' this. believe me when i tell you that it's happening because you know i am a reasonable person and support efforts to stop it" but i also have had to adapt to an increasingly data-driven workplace that is managed by people who don't know what to look at or ask for and have been ignoring things that are right under their noses because we "don't have data to support it". it feels like being under an inept tyrannical regime (lol/sob pinochet)

so to me it just seems like a delaying tactic rather than a genuine wish to "understand the problem"

like i said, i'm hostile about data! sorry :(

La Lechera, Monday, 16 June 2014 16:30 (nine years ago) link

CA that's so weird! I wonder why that was so. Also, I have no idea why but I pretty much never ever get street harassed which is not to say that I don't know it's a very real problem but if does make it harder for me to relate to how much of a problem it is for some people.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Monday, 16 June 2014 16:32 (nine years ago) link

it seems kinda impossible to get any "meaningful data" on this topic because it's so extremely subjective. why even try?

That's a really interesting question! The way a person receives harassment is obv personal and subjective, but there are things that are objectively objectifying and sexist, and the recipient of those things can't opt out on a bad day OR have any warning about what level of harassment is going to happen. Like, if you personally like being told you're pretty today by men you don't know on the street, that's fine for you, but it's still a form of the oppression of women in public places, it's just a softer form, maybe, depending on what your spectrum looks like. Also, when street harassment is normalized we all suffer because we don't get to choose whether a man says, "Good morning, beautiful" or "Call me, I'll come over and suck on those titties."

In a larger sense, the question of "Why try to collect this data at all?" is interesting because the answer is always "policy." Reports are created and released w much media fanfare in order to build up a store of data that could direct policy changes. SO THEN, take note of the fact that there currently IS no policy around street harassment, it's not a crime, it's a big nothing. Legally speaking, it does not exist. So then that report starts to look like a step toward creating legislation or directing the policy of non-profits and community organizations, and that's where the bad data actually does harm.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Monday, 16 June 2014 16:36 (nine years ago) link

Blah blah, sorry, over-explaining as usual.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Monday, 16 June 2014 16:38 (nine years ago) link

i know how the legislative system works, i just wish people would not have to be legislated into not being assholes

La Lechera, Monday, 16 June 2014 16:39 (nine years ago) link

even though i know that it's necessary
i wish it were not so

La Lechera, Monday, 16 June 2014 16:39 (nine years ago) link

PS: In the first para I am not meaning "you" as YOU, LL, but I know someone who started out actually thinking, if I don't get harassed today there must be something wrong with my outfit, and over a couple of years has begun to unlearn that reasoning and it's so exciting to hear her talk about how she kind of...woke up...to how harmful that was and how she was socialized to get her value from being harassed.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Monday, 16 June 2014 16:41 (nine years ago) link

Actually there is not universal agreement on the idea that we need to have ANY LEGISLATION around SH--there are a lot of good arguments for how harmful that would be, and unequally harmful because law is applied unequally. I happen to think that the idea that identifying a problem REQUIRES offering a concrete solution at the same time is actually a dangerous distraction from a more ambitious and therefore much scarier project of actually changing people's minds/changing the culture around us, at least in discrete pockets where we can effectively work. And then using our work to make a model for other ppl changing THEIR cultural pockets into what works for THEM.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Monday, 16 June 2014 16:45 (nine years ago) link

i know
i think i have political struggle fatigue tbh, partially bc of work and partially just because of my life

La Lechera, Monday, 16 June 2014 16:47 (nine years ago) link

so to me it just seems like a delaying tactic rather than a genuine wish to "understand the problem"

ia, especially considering the reason we're lacking in DATA is because nobody gave a fuck for a long long time, and for the most part, still don't. "Oh you should be flattered."

gyac, Monday, 16 June 2014 17:25 (nine years ago) link

I mean, yeah. You know that, even as we are discussing this here, there is some bloke (on ILX or elsewhere) just getting up the bee in his bonnet to shout "YOU'RE MAKING A BIG DEAL OUT OF NOTHING" or "BUT THAT'S HAPPENED TO ME, TOO (once, when I was 16)" or "BUT IT'S A COOOOOMPLIMENT!!!!!" and how we shouldn't even be talking about it at all. *gets whiplash from rolling eyes so hard*

you go PUNCHING yourself in... THE DICK! (Branwell with an N), Monday, 16 June 2014 18:02 (nine years ago) link

But at the same time, during the #YesAllWomen tag, a friend of mine on twitter started saying that she was seeing so much talk about SH, and started to worry and actually doubt, like, was she a ~real woman~ because SH had never been a problem for her. Like, is this the expectation we've created in women, as a group, that there's something *wrong* with you if it doesn't happen to you?

Like, I remember when another friend on twitter got her first rape threat in a blog comment, and on one level, there was a small chorus of this kind of group assurance of "well, it's kind of a rite of passage; it just means ~at last you are a real feminist blogger~" combined with the awareness of what a sick and fucked up situation this was, that we were treating it that way. :-/

you go PUNCHING yourself in... THE DICK! (Branwell with an N), Monday, 16 June 2014 18:12 (nine years ago) link

(I also don't really know who the "we" in the first paragraph, second sentence is, either.)

you go PUNCHING yourself in... THE DICK! (Branwell with an N), Monday, 16 June 2014 18:15 (nine years ago) link

was she a ~real woman~ because SH had never been a problem for her. Like, is this the expectation we've created in women, as a group, that there's something *wrong* with you if it doesn't happen to you?

I...my first reaction to being asked that question would be: is there something wrong with you if rape doesn't happen to you??! SH is sexual violence, it is not sexuality. Even if the harassers themselves think it IS about "attraction" or w/e. That doesn't change the nature of the interaction from assault to a consensual expression of adult sexuality or wtf ever.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Monday, 16 June 2014 18:25 (nine years ago) link

Yeah, but the whole way it's been phrased for hundreds of years of "men shouting that you are pretty, in the street, is a complement" is kind of a hard one to shake. (Maybe it also plays into the insecurity of how women are so constantly judged on looks alone, so that if you are not conventionally attractive and do not get even the regular kind of non-assault, non-stranger compliments, there is also something wrong with you.)

It's complicated, and I'm not going to speak for her because she isn't here. But it was something that triggered a strange chord in me, that I wanted to know why I was resonating with this weirdness.

(I did not feel complimented by being shouted at yesterday, mind. Just... perplexed.)

you go PUNCHING yourself in... THE DICK! (Branwell with an N), Monday, 16 June 2014 18:32 (nine years ago) link

Well, we all need to decolonize our minds, right? There's personal work along with all other kinds of work (or maybe even at the base of all other work?). Yes it's important to state that the expectation EXISTS, that there is pressure to accept all kinds of sexual harassment and also abuse as a natural part of sexual express in patriarchy, AND at the same time the growth of our personal critique and emotional health and freedom from those expectations is our own journey to take.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Monday, 16 June 2014 18:36 (nine years ago) link

BB, have you seen this? I know there's a more appropriate thread for this but I don't have that one bookmarked and I know you have an interest in dapper clothing: http://www.autostraddle.com/fat-booty-butch-buys-a-suit-on-a-budget-237812/

carl agatha, Monday, 23 June 2014 21:31 (nine years ago) link

This is very interesting, too, about work clothes - http://www.thenation.com/blog/180361/womens-office-wear-whos-making-rules

carl agatha, Monday, 23 June 2014 21:41 (nine years ago) link

Thanks, Carl.

(Girls, boys, art, pleasure, girls, boys, art, pleasure, Armani, Armani, ah-ah-Armani etc etc)

Puffin Party (Branwell with an N), Tuesday, 24 June 2014 10:35 (nine years ago) link

having a terrible couple of hours that i want to talk about here in a min. its to do with planning this girls rock camp thing and starting to feel uncomfortable with how it's developing, and feeling bulldozed and shutting down/withdrawing my ideas as a result. ill write more later. just feeling ugh, also lupus flaring.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 25 June 2014 22:48 (nine years ago) link

:(

I'm sorry. That all sounds stressful and exhausting.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 25 June 2014 22:52 (nine years ago) link

bleh roxy that does not sound good at all

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 25 June 2014 22:57 (nine years ago) link

Oh, Roxy, I'm so sorry. That sounds shitty and awful.

I'm on a post-gig high and soaring with crushes x2 and just wow.

Puffin Party (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 26 June 2014 00:12 (nine years ago) link

needed to get my head together and calm down before posting this, but basically: i was meeting casually with a friend before our official rock camp planning meeting today and just tossing ideas and feelings around, and i mentioned that a dude had volunteered to do a short workshop about women in electronic music, and making electronic music, etc., and how cool and important i thought that was for these girls to learn. she dismissed it and said one of us should teach it instead, and i said "we're all unqualified to teach it compared with him, though" - and she said basically that no man should be teaching anything at the camps. WHICH I TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH! i totally understand the need for women-only spaces etc, but the focus of this camp is training these girls to be able to do anything they need to do, and do it well. I feel if we have no women drummers who can teach drumming lessons, then we need a male to teach it (a situation we are actually in right now) rather than have a woman teach them badly. YES women in leadership roles, and YES girls only at the camp, but learn from whoever is coming from the right place and can teach the best - am i out of line or wrong here? we're seriously talking about having a woman who is not a drummer do the drum instruction despite several right on and excellent dude drummers volunteering. is that in the kids' best interest? i feel like making it a woman only space in this situation might benefit us more than the campers? please help.

it came up again later in our meeting when someone said "we should have the girls pick a woman musician they want to be like and then pick that idea apart, like what they like about her and what they want to or can emulate about her songwriting playing, etc" - and i thought but didn't say that we don't need say "a woman musician," because IF A LITTLE GIRL WANTS TO BE PETE TOWNSHEND SHE DAMN WELL CAN and I want her to know that. That is so important to me.

Additionally, was (in before-meeting casual meeting) expressing that i feel like rock camp is prescriptive ("rock", guitars basses and drums only) and that i hope to involve electronic music, and hiphop, and etc, and do a whole camp about sound teching, and etc etc. and she just goes "we can't take that on!" and laughed while typing furiously, like i was crazy. ok. maybe you can't.

it's not like i was saying we need to do this TODAY, but i mean...that's not a crazy idea. that shit is a must if we're really focused on training up girls to hang in the music world.

so much trouble expressing myself due to lupus brain fog, and also questioning what i mean and if i am really thinking what i'm thinking - all lupus things.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 26 June 2014 00:38 (nine years ago) link

You're totally loud and clear. Nothing infuriates me more than people not bothering to hide their disdain for other people's opinions. Also I know next to nothing about music but I agree with you on all three counts.

ljubljana, Thursday, 26 June 2014 00:44 (nine years ago) link

Yeah I think there's a difference between women-only spaces and girls-only spaces, and competent instruction is key here. Also OTM about expanding beyond rock. Basically I agree with you all around.

carl agatha, Thursday, 26 June 2014 00:47 (nine years ago) link

like, men are not their peers. they are our peers. right? obv we're not going to have 14 year old boys in there making them uncomfortable.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 26 June 2014 00:48 (nine years ago) link

Yeah exactly. I went to an all girls camp and there were dudes there as counselors. It strikes me as being similar to that. Or male teachers at an all girls school.

carl agatha, Thursday, 26 June 2014 00:50 (nine years ago) link

xp - having a non-drummer teach drumming is a big mistake. If you've already done as much outreach to solicit female volunteers for these roles as you can, then get a dude, rather than someone who can't do it. It's something that if you don't learn "right" you end up spending way more time unlearning them, and just because it's one of the more physically demanding instruments, learning to play wrong can cause some serious physical problems. And I apologize for sounding like a broken record about ergonomics and drumming, but I think it really is important, and I've seen too many drummers (mostly dudes) end up with repeated stress injuries, etc. from playing wrong.

Definitely expanding the musical scope is a great idea.

As far as the woman musician vs. just any musician thing goes -- I mostly agree with you, but it would be cool (and maybe this is a different workshop/exercise) to highlight woman musicians that might be more obscure but have done things in line with the girls' interests and aesthetics?

sarahell, Thursday, 26 June 2014 00:57 (nine years ago) link

totally. that's my concern, that we're going to ruin these drummers especially. they will do that over my dead body.

and regarding the last point, i agree, but we're doing lots to highlight and teach about women in rock every day, and obv they need to learn about women in rock. i just feel like limiting them to a woman musician in such a personal exercise as that particular one wouldn't be helpful.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 26 June 2014 01:01 (nine years ago) link

it just needs to be whoever they want to be like or who they identify with. if they want to be alice cooper then they need to pick him. imo. i would have been hard pressed at age 8 to not pick paul mccartney, and i think if someone had asked me to focus on what exactly i liked about him and what aspects of his playing, presence and songwriting i wanted to and could accomplish myself, it would have been so valuable.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 26 June 2014 01:03 (nine years ago) link

Oh definitely! I mean, at that age, most of my musical "influences" were men, granted that was over two decades ago, and before the internet, but I definitely felt discouraged by thinking that I couldn't be like Peter Murphy or Peter Hook because I was lacking a peter between my legs. (sorry for bad pun)

sarahell, Thursday, 26 June 2014 01:05 (nine years ago) link

yeah i want to help them not feel that way! if poss

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 26 June 2014 01:07 (nine years ago) link

You're doing the lord's work, roxy

sarahell, Thursday, 26 June 2014 01:08 (nine years ago) link

well ty now just to get people to shut up and let me do it. lol.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Thursday, 26 June 2014 01:09 (nine years ago) link

Oh god I agree so much. You're right about drumming and also about competent teaching. And also about being whoever you wanna be. I waited way too long to start bc the music I liked was almost always being played by men and I thought I couldn't hang. ;_; but true.

La Lechera, Thursday, 26 June 2014 01:39 (nine years ago) link

yes!

let them pick Randy Rhoads or Lita Ford or whoever, but THEN blow their minds when a great instructor (m or f) *shows* them at 12 'hey here are some cool ways you can do what they do'

that has to be the power of girl camp. if you limit it, you're closing a door.

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 26 June 2014 03:08 (nine years ago) link

Yeah, this sounds like a case where idealism and pragmatism are pointing in different directions.

Like, it would be great if you could find 100% female instructors 100% qualified to teach those workshops, but this being the world we live in, we have to work with what we have. I have spent my entire life, when I have no female role models, I pick a male role model and gender-flip. If a female instructor is not available (man, I wish I could do your electronic music workshop but there is an ocean in the way) then get a pro-woman man. But that is my A-number-1 one concern, and my only caveat is make sure you get the *right* dudes.

Because I know that the Right Dudes exist, and I have had many of them as teachers and mentors and friends during my time in music, and I was hugely grateful for their belief and support. But that is urgent and key - that you find dudes who can do the whole "belief and support" - because I have also encountered dudes put in teaching positions who do not bother to conceal their contempt for women and their perceived abilities. (I mean, me, I'm pig-headed; if a dude says "womanhood precludes X*" then I take that as a spur to get my head down and show that idiot, here's me and my dumb ladybody DOING X, AND DOIN' IT BETTER THAN YOU, ARSEHOLE) Make sure you do not let any dudes like this near your camp, because they can ruin a musician way way worse than a bad drum instructor ruining drummers.

Finding dude instructors who will acknowledge "yes, you will face more barriers than men" (because I encounter the opposite attitude, the whole "there are no barriers for women! if there are less women in electronic music, it's because they're not interested/less good/whatever" which is also so so damaging because the message that comes through is "if you don't succeed, it is YOUR FAULT!") but at the same time project "you CAN do this and do it in an AWESOME way".

I dunno; it's like... there are so many men who *will* tear women down. I think it's actually an equally important lesson for young female musicians that ~not all men~ (sorry) think or behave that way, that there are male musicians and mentors and teachers who will take you seriously, will respect and help and mentor you. It's a good counter balance and an "it doesn't have to be this way" lesson.

On role models, it's like... OK, 9/10 of my role models have been men because that's who was out there. However, I do think there's a case to be made for presenting female role models, *because* they can be hard to find. Not in a prescriptive "YOU HAVE TO PICK A WOMAN FOR A ROLE MODEL" but more in a "there are women, out there, who you may not be aware of, doing this thing you like, and if she can do it, you can do it." It's fucking stupid, that in 2014, we have to still be ~raising awareness~ that there are, e.g. female electronic musicians, in fact, that many of the pioneers of electronic music were women, but this is the stupid fucking counteracting of the world's sexism that has to be done. Still. (Can you feel my frustration? (I'm a frustraaaaated maaaaan...)) But there's a difference between "hey there are some people out there like you, doing what you want to do" and "if you want to be Alice Cooper, BE THE BEST DAMN ALICE COOPER YOU CAN BE, GIRL!"

And as to "we can't take that on" well, why the fuck not? I mean, there's a case for being realistic, and not biting off more than you can chew. But women, consistently, undersell their abilities and under-estimate their potential and this is also really damaging and limiting. I know; it's how women are trained to be. But fuck that. (Unless it's just rockism in disguise, in which case, even more urgently, fuck that.)

But basically, yeah, Roxy, you're in the right on everything here. I mean, I'm trying to prise out the kernel of good intention in the midst of all the bullshit. But basically? Stick to your guns, we got your backup here.

Puffin Party (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 26 June 2014 09:54 (nine years ago) link

I can see a practical reason for sticking to rock if you have limited teaching time and funds, but if you *can* expand the boundaries then you should. And yeah, if you can have excellent female instructors 100% then you should, but there is NO WAY that you should water down the quality of instruction in order to make that happen. I mean, if you ended up with 100% male instructors that would be weird and you might need to consider whether you were the best people to run a girls rock camp, but... that's already not going to happen.

With regard to the "pick a role model", there's definitely a navigation here between leading by example in showing female role models at the forefront, and a prescriptivism/ghettoisation of female roles in music. If a kiddy version of me showed up wanting to know about electronics, I'd be glad to know of Derbyshire and Oram, but I wouldn't be glad to be forced to follow them and not Vorhaus if I wanted to bloody well be Vorhaus.

Basically I'm just following everyone else here with a "Roxy OTM".

emil.y, Thursday, 26 June 2014 11:45 (nine years ago) link

yes, roxy is absolutely otm.

estela, Thursday, 26 June 2014 12:10 (nine years ago) link

also i think this girls rock camp is going to be very great and the girls will never forget it.

estela, Thursday, 26 June 2014 12:13 (nine years ago) link

Roxy and others otm, also you could have a discussion with the kids about this very thing e.g. do you think we should include guys at this thing, and talk about what we have discussed here? Although would prob end up as a points scoring exercise by other organisers...

kinder, Thursday, 26 June 2014 12:18 (nine years ago) link

I don't mean to derail, if there's more productive discussion to be had on the topic above, but I just need to... spout.

I dunno; I get so caught up in ~discussing~ and ~debating~ all these ~issues~ and right now, I'm just tired of being ... "angry" isn't even the right word, nor is "outrage" the right word. It's just that thing where all the angry-making events and discussions of the world just start to pile up on me, and I'm just sick of feeling provoked and sick of feeling like I have to constantly counter and argue down the injustice and absorb the hurtfulness. I'm tired of existing in that mode, because I get too full of anger and hurt, and it's not a nice place to live, but also it is boring to be there all the time.

So I don't want to be there. I just want to go ~BLEEEE CRUSHES~ right now and revel in a bit of untrammelled joy. And I know that if there's anything ILX hates, it's crushes and it's untrammelled joy, but right now, that's what I feel like feeling.

And I feel like I am living in luxury right now because I am revelling in two crushes right now, of rather different sorts, and it's like having one of each is... I don't know what to do with all this happiness!

So there's Type X crush, which is where you really admire and respect a person, because of their work, because of their competence, because they are morally sound and a good person, and the feelings about their qualities expands up into crushhood, and it's like your positive feelings about their actions and qualities expand up to form a regard which turns into crush and imbues them with sexiness and attractiveness because they are so inherently wonderful. Then there's a Type Y crush, which is all about how physically sexy and how attractive and beautiful a person is, and therefore your feelings about their looks have a halo effect whereby you start to appreciate everything that that person does, because their actions and qualities become imbued with their inherent sexiness.

I'm not saying that either of these forms are more legitimate or more "pure" than another, just that there are different forms of crush. And I currently have one of each of these types of crushes!

And I am now going to completely dissolve in squee because I very recently had the experience of being in a room with both crush X and crush Y, and having a strange but still wonderful conversation with Crush X (conversations with X are always great anyway, because X is intelligent and kind and wonderful) which turned into X telling me (after me joking, "I don't want to be around Y, I'm going to get a crush on Y") all of the reasons that they think Y is great and crushes are great, and totally feeding my crush on Y until I'm just a big giant ball of squee.

And partly this is completely feeding my crush on X, firstly because X is really loyal and just open in their admiration for Y which is a really noble quality, and secondly because it seems like X wants me to be happy and recognises that feeding my squee is a source of happy? But it also feeds my crush on Y, because it feels like my crush has been legitimised, because there must be something good about Y in order to attract and keep the loyalty and respect of X, but also because the things that X told me about Y were quite squee-worthy and adorable.

But anyway, crushes are wonderful and squee is great and right now I just feel really happy and great and inspired and full of positivity and the world seems like a great place for having both X and Y in it. The world is so full of terrible things that can drag you down if you let them, is it really so terrible to just take joy and happiness from the uplift that a crush brings? Now I am going to shut up about it all, but I just could not help but sharing in the happy and joy that crush-squee brings for one tiny moment of your attention. Thanking you for your tolerance.

FEEL MY DESIRE. I'M A FRUSTRATED BRAN. Well. (Branwell with an N), Friday, 27 June 2014 05:47 (nine years ago) link

great crushes are great, no apology necessary

positive squee!!

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 27 June 2014 05:50 (nine years ago) link

Well, I mean, they are not crushes that are going to go anywhere, nor do I want them to be! (In fact, X has a girlfriend who is so great and amazing that I totally crush on her as well.) But it's just the kind of *lift* that having crushes can bring, in terms of making the world seem like a happier and more wonderful place.

FEEL MY DESIRE. I'M A FRUSTRATED BRAN. Well. (Branwell with an N), Friday, 27 June 2014 05:54 (nine years ago) link

I miss that feeling! I hope I have it again soon.

ljubljana, Friday, 27 June 2014 12:56 (nine years ago) link

I say get joy wherever you can take it!

when you call my name it's like a prickly pear (Crabbits), Friday, 27 June 2014 18:43 (nine years ago) link

I have been listening to King Crimson's first album on repeat and organizing my house and it is bringing me some gentle joy. *zippa zap zorp zip&*

when you call my name it's like a prickly pear (Crabbits), Friday, 27 June 2014 18:45 (nine years ago) link

have yall ever heard of Philly's Pissed? I'm sure there are a lot of groups who do similar work, but they were a group of women in the Philadelphia area kind of loosely formed around the punk/DIY scene who responded to instances of sexual assault in their community. If a survivor didn't want to see or talk to their abuser in person, they would communicate with the perp for them (if that's what the survivor wanted); if they didn't want to go to their parents, or the cops, they would help them deal without doing those things. They basically existed to protect and support the survivor and enact their wishes. I think they got guff for enacting the wish of beating a rapist up once (uncorroborated and poss untrue! heard from a third party). anyway, i'm thinking about starting a group like this in my town. cause i'm not doing enough stuff (lol)

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Saturday, 28 June 2014 01:09 (nine years ago) link

oh and also distributed mucho amazing literature like, how to work on your shit (for those who have crossed boundaries), what consent is, etc

most still exists online

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Saturday, 28 June 2014 01:10 (nine years ago) link

"We also facilitate survivors in figuring out what they need to feel safe, whole and in control of their lives again. For many survivors, though certainly not all, this involves taking some kind of action with regard to their assault. One popular strategy is for a survivor to create a list of "demands" for the perpetrator to meet. If a survivor is interested in creating a list of demands, we encourage them to envision what would make them feel safe and more in control of their lives again, and what would make them feel that the person who assaulted them is being held accountable for their actions. Demands might include that a perpetrator do self-education around consent, write a letter taking responsibility for the assault(s), examine their substance use, or leave spaces when the survivor is present. Frequently, if a survivor creates a list of demands, they will ask that someone from Philly Stands Up works with the perpetrator in ensuring that they meet the demands."

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Saturday, 28 June 2014 01:16 (nine years ago) link

OK, that link has a massive big trigger warning on it, and I'm going to heed that right now and wait until I'm in a better place to read it, because I'm feeling very edge-of-tears this morning for other reasons.

This ---> what they need to feel safe, whole and in control of their lives again. I mean, when you find out what that is, let me know, because I don't seem to ever find that place.

This organisation sounds amazing, I wish something like that (had) existed here. I mean, yeah, why can't I take a page from Roxy's book and start one myself? Fear. I am afraid of everything, or rather, I am afraid of everyone. I get kind of overwhelmed when I read about the things that some of the women on this thread do (especially Roxy, Carl, LL, In Orbit) in terms of community work and getting involved in things. Like, I have so much respect for people who get off their encounter-suited butts and do something because I feel like a failure and a fraud for not doing it. (And it's not through lack of time at the moment, it is fear, social anxiety, terror of having to deal with people.)

I dunno, I'm kind of wondering: how do you do this? Not how do you find the time, but how do you find the people? How do you find the courage? (And this is speaking as someone who has to psych herself up most weeks to go to the Community Garden, and that's only something I can cope with on a regular basis because it is 75% dealing with plants, and 25% dealing with other human beings.)

FEEL MY DESIRE. I'M A FRUSTRATED FAN. (Branwell with an N), Saturday, 28 June 2014 08:24 (nine years ago) link

I feel you on the fear, tbh. It's something I've overcome really slowly, but I'm only just recently able to work in groups that aren't bands - and one of my experiences in a band is maybe, partially what caused some of the fear. And even now I find myself afraid to speak up in groups, or find myself being bulldozed because I am too afraid to speak up when I'm angry, or whatever (see above). But I'm working on it. The courage comes in dribs and drabs, but honestly I have to force myself to attend everything that I attend - not just meetings or community organizing stuff, but shows, movies, parties. Everything! I don't really even fully understand why, myself, but I get scared to leave the house and just have to suck it up. I'm not really sure how the sucking up happens - I just know things will be worse (I'll feel more depressed, my social anxiety will not be allayed) if I don't go. People are always surprised when I say I'm afraid of social interaction so I guess I overcompensate!

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Saturday, 28 June 2014 13:59 (nine years ago) link

We have this constant back and forth in the rock camp organizing group where i want to just take care of everything through a chain email, and they're like "we have to meet in person"

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Saturday, 28 June 2014 14:01 (nine years ago) link

"scared to leave the house" is not really true - just feel like leaving takes a huge mental effort

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Saturday, 28 June 2014 21:10 (nine years ago) link

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. It's like that psyching yourself up process of telling yourself it won't be as terrible as you've already decided it might be in your head.

(I mean, I had to give myself a pep talk to get myself to get up and go to the gig on Wednesday that I had been looking forward to for months, because I was afraid I would not be able to handle the social interactions! That's nuts, but how I am at the moment. So even more disinclined to go into ~unknown situations~ rather than situations already known to be pleasurable.)

((I am sometimes actually literally scared to leave the house, but that's a different kind of fear, usually related to there being strangers in the yard or weirdoes on my street.))

FEEL MY DESIRE. I'M A FRUSTRATED FAN. (Branwell with an N), Saturday, 28 June 2014 21:37 (nine years ago) link

my husband just got angry and started a fight because....he did all the dishes and they were mostly mine

how terrible for him

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Saturday, 28 June 2014 21:50 (nine years ago) link

smdh

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 28 June 2014 22:21 (nine years ago) link

there are days when I am convinced mr veg is deliberately takes the opposing view on everything with me bcz it's me doing the talking

last straw was when i was talking up the new star wars movie with great excitement & he says "meh star trek is way better"

this from a man who i know for a *fact* to be a massive star wars nerd

i yelled a LOT

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 28 June 2014 22:36 (nine years ago) link

i mean i have been slacking on cleaning for reasons he knows. ive been in a constant lupus flare for the last 10 days or so, and dealing with depression and emotional issues, stress - you'd think that me not cleaning anything and the house being completely fucked would make him realize how much shit i do, not like, "wow the house is dirty for the first time ever....im going to clean it for the first time it has ever been cleaned cause its never been dirty before, i deserve an award"

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Sunday, 29 June 2014 00:06 (nine years ago) link

ok im exaggerating. just pissed. angry at the passive aggression. he does clean, but so do i. i dont deserve a lecture on cleaning bc i didnt do my dishes while i was sick!

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Sunday, 29 June 2014 00:06 (nine years ago) link

that's what i resent most about housework, it's an act of undoing rather than doing, so the more you do it the less apparent it is and the only time it has any visibility is when there's a mess. which is strongly the case here right now.

i'm so sorry you are not well, roxy, chronic illness is hard to bear.

estela, Sunday, 29 June 2014 00:28 (nine years ago) link

You know, there are times when I'm really lonely and would love to have a partner more than anything in the world.

Then there are times when I think "some wanker is gonna live in my house and complain when I don't do the dishes? FUCK THAT!"

Second shift, right there, y'all.

FEEL MY DESIRE. I'M A FRUSTRATED FAN. (Branwell with an N), Sunday, 29 June 2014 08:06 (nine years ago) link

i have been enjoying a lot of irl girl talk these last few days with my visiting friends
having my words come out of my mouth and then vanish is so much better than typing that i wish there were a better way to describe it

La Lechera, Sunday, 29 June 2014 15:46 (nine years ago) link

I get kind of overwhelmed when I read about the things that some of the women on this thread do (especially Roxy, Carl, LL, In Orbit) in terms of community work and getting involved in things. Like, I have so much respect for people who get off their encounter-suited butts and do something because I feel like a failure and a fraud for not doing it. (And it's not through lack of time at the moment, it is fear, social anxiety, terror of having to deal with people.)

I dunno, I'm kind of wondering: how do you do this? Not how do you find the time, but how do you find the people? How do you find the courage?

For me, don't give me any credit for going out and talking to people and looking for opportunities to connect to them, because by and large, that's not work, that's ESSENTIAL to me. It's fun, it's energizing. Plus you know how I love a cause and a good, defensible set of convictions (and I'm happiest when I'm suffering--I blame religious upbringing).

I feel like I have the absolute most luxurious life right now that I can almost possibly imagine: I wake up when I want and watch the news (stimulation), cook and do correspondence and make appointments, and then I go to events & workshops where I cram my brain full of things (stimulation) and watch and listen to people and get my emotions involved (stimulation), and talk and socialize and interact (stimulation) and then I go home when I want and have almost total solitude when I get there and I am never bored, EVER. It's amazing. The only bad part will be figuring out how to make all this amazing stuff PAY ME MONEY in a way that I really really hope won't require tolerating too much boredom.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Tuesday, 8 July 2014 10:31 (nine years ago) link

omg you and me both sis re: figuring out how to make fun stimulating life lucrative!

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 9 July 2014 02:15 (nine years ago) link

Seriously! I had a 2-hr mtg today with a campaign manager for a social justice non-profit and got offered the chance to head up/innovate some initiatives with an eye to running for an advisory board seat later this year. All volunteer, though. On one hand, fuck you pay me, but on the other hand I need their organizational legitimacy and A SEAT ON THE BOARD OMG. That is BOMB on a resume (and I believe deeply in their causes and would be able to direct their budding policy development so it's not just an authority perk).

The real payoff though was 2 solid hours of deep connection and agreement about movement work and connecting to ppl and developing them as leaders. If I could do that all the time FOR MONEY? Died and gone to heaven.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Wednesday, 9 July 2014 02:32 (nine years ago) link

Some days I think, "Yeah, every millennial with a conscience wants a job that 'does good' and THEY have advanced degrees in law and public policy and experience as field organizers. YOU waited until age 37 to try to jump into this world that 25-year-olds are better at than you, and you think you're going to find someone to pay you in this market? Get real, idiot." And then some days I think, everyone just needs one connection that works out, and from there you can work with what you've got.

Today is one of the better days.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Wednesday, 9 July 2014 02:48 (nine years ago) link

I dunno; my best friend (who lives in NYC) got a job working for her dream company (working in the field of reproductive health, in capacities she hugely believes in) and IIRC, she was on the other side of 40, and had been unemployed a long time when she finally got it. OTOH, she started in a support role and worked her way up, but has proved her value to the place over and over again, compared to the millennials whose parents buy them internships or whatever. So those jobs do exist, and regular people I personally know do get them.

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 9 July 2014 08:02 (nine years ago) link

But, personally, I just feel such a disconnect from everything you are saying. Like, the idea of a fun, stimulating life is so far from my experience right now I don't even know how to get back there. I'm coming up to a year unemployed now, and running out of hope faster than I'm running out of money. The idea of finding *any* kind of job, let alone a ~meaningful~ or stimulating one just seems so remote. Gonna try (probably unsuccessfully) not to be a downer and shut up about this. I am starting to feel the whole "what if I never actually work again?" the way that I started to feel "what if I really am never in a relationship again?" about 10 years ago, and the latter turned out to be a correct prediction, so, uh, *panic*. Because life is much harder to live without a job than without a partner. But I guess I just have to try to think about all of the women (and there are lots in my family) who went on to interesting and stimulating careers in the second half of their lives, when they were in their 50s or even 60s (my Mum got her lifelong dream job in her late 60s!)

I kinda have to keep stepping back and reminding myself, no matter how useless I feel at the moment, like, all of the things I have managed to do with this year off. Even if none of them was "saving the world" or whatever, I still did a lot of necessary travelling and reconnecting with distant loved ones, I wrote a Proper Novel, I did a whole column plus illustrations for a magazine I really love. I have not just lain in bed the whole year with a pillow over my head, which is what it sometimes feels like I've done. But none of those things are lucrative, either.

It's just hard, because IO, when I see you describing "going out and talking to people and looking for opportunities to connect" as essential fun, rather than work, it just makes me feel like a space alien. But then I just have to remind myself, no, you are just an extrovert, and extroverts derive energy and happiness from contact with other people. And I am just an extreme introvert, and we're all different and we're all allowed to be.

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 9 July 2014 08:17 (nine years ago) link

roxymuzak just wanted to pipe up in here that I hope you are feeling better, and much love and warmth to you, and that if I were in Knoxville I'd definitely come clean your house. <3

homosexual II, Wednesday, 9 July 2014 16:39 (nine years ago) link

I had a dream last night that the trendy thing to do was for gal pals to make youtube clips of them taking turns washing each other's hair in the sink in a really caring, charismatic way.

when you call my name it's like a prickly pear (Crabbits), Thursday, 10 July 2014 14:31 (nine years ago) link

Aw thanks homo2

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Sunday, 13 July 2014 08:12 (nine years ago) link

Well this is fucking sickening.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/13/us/how-one-college-handled-a-sexual-assault-complaint.html?_r=1

http://www.xojane.com/it-happened-to-me/hobart-william-smith-sexual-assault

I went to this school for my freshman and sophomore years of college before transferring out because I couldn't handle the atmosphere. A couple weeks int my freshman year I was raped by a dude I'd met during orientation. I didn't say anything or report it because I was 17 and really naive and I thought that because I was incredibly drunk and told him to use a condom that it was my fault even though I said "no". Later I found out that this person had been accused of assault by several women but that nothing ever happened to him. Ugh. I feel sick.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Tuesday, 15 July 2014 17:37 (nine years ago) link

Ugh! I'm sorry, I don't really have the mental stability to read something like the linked pieces today.

But E, I am so sorry this thing happened to you, And so *angry* that is happened, and that nothing ever happened to this guy. That is not right! (Though I understand being naive and afraid and not wanting to report anything.) It was fucking wrong for him to do it!

Branwell with an N, Tuesday, 15 July 2014 17:48 (nine years ago) link

Oh E I'm so sorry. I'm sorry it happened to you and that it happened again and that you feel sick.

I tried to read the articles and can't do it either (and I've just been to therapy AND a psychiatrist appointment so I feel like I am about as mentally fine-tuned as I ever get). I got four paragraphs into the NYT piece and my vision actually got red with rage. I will come back to it, though.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 15 July 2014 17:55 (nine years ago) link

Oh thank you so much, guys. It was nearly 20 years ago at this point but I just saw this article and identified with it quite strongly in some ways it was like OMG this bullshit is STILL going on?! It's not really that surprising at all(sadly)but it's still rage-inducing.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Tuesday, 15 July 2014 18:03 (nine years ago) link

this bullshit is STILL going on

Yes, yes this. And how many times does it have to happen before the people putatively responsible do something? Probably the better question is how to we get better people in positions of responsibility.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 15 July 2014 18:11 (nine years ago) link

Love and support to you, E, while you process yr reactions.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Tuesday, 15 July 2014 19:00 (nine years ago) link

To the article, I mean. And to having to be reminded of sexual violence all the time because it's everywhere.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Tuesday, 15 July 2014 19:01 (nine years ago) link

<3 Thanks, L.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Tuesday, 15 July 2014 19:24 (nine years ago) link

I'm so sorry ENBB. this stuff is so, so awful. & infuriating, & sad.

JuliaA, Tuesday, 15 July 2014 20:00 (nine years ago) link

im so sorry E.

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Sunday, 20 July 2014 21:04 (nine years ago) link

E, love to you, and carl agatha absolutely OTM re: getting people with their capacity for moral thought and action still intact into positions of responsibility.

ljubljana, Sunday, 20 July 2014 21:27 (nine years ago) link

Someone posted this on twitter yesterday, seems salient to earlier discussion that was had here:

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jul/20/mood-swings-more-than-pms-contraceptive-pill-alice-roberts

I have never, ever been able to take the contraceptive pill because I found it fucks with my mood disorder. I always wish there were a way to explore these experiences without degenerating into "periods make women be crazzzeeeeee" tropes. :-/ There were a couple of sentences in that piece that really hit me hard.

Branwell with an N, Monday, 21 July 2014 09:40 (nine years ago) link

I turned down the offer of hormonal treatment for fibroids, for many of the same reasons. Surgeon consultant merely looked bemused when I suggested there ~might~ be a problem with his recommendation. GRRRR.

leave the web alone boys (suzy), Monday, 21 July 2014 11:23 (nine years ago) link

I will never, ever, ever, EVER take the BCP again. I took it for like 9 months in 2003 and it made me feel... terrible. I am "estrogen dominant" as it is without the help of synthetic hormones.

homosexual II, Monday, 21 July 2014 21:52 (nine years ago) link

Bcp and all hormonal bc makes me into an emotionless zombie. Not good. Then there's always a weird fallout when I come off them.

I am currently 5 days late for my period and freaking out. I've felt like I was in lupus flare for a month - pregnancy might explain that?! :/

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 22 July 2014 02:31 (nine years ago) link

Eeep!

Branwell with an N, Tuesday, 22 July 2014 08:50 (nine years ago) link

Pee on a stick, rox. It's been long enough and not knowing won't do you any good.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 22 July 2014 11:56 (nine years ago) link

^^^

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Tuesday, 22 July 2014 12:19 (nine years ago) link

Agree, also whoa!!

La Lechera, Tuesday, 22 July 2014 12:47 (nine years ago) link

I peed on a stick shortly after posting. Lol at that sentence. It was negative and I'm super relieved but also worried it's just too early. BUT there are also a milli reasons it might be late (stress and weird diet and sleep)

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 22 July 2014 13:20 (nine years ago) link

Most HPTs are pretty sensitive these days and if you're five days late I think it's probably not too early. You can get another just to make sure but it should show by this point afaik.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Tuesday, 22 July 2014 13:28 (nine years ago) link

also yay not pregnant

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Tuesday, 22 July 2014 13:28 (nine years ago) link

And thank you for your kind words the other day. I don't think I ever got around to saying that.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Tuesday, 22 July 2014 13:29 (nine years ago) link

Yeah, agreed that five days should do the trick. Also pregnancy symptoms don't usually start until after you miss your period (says the woman who spent three years googling every sniffle, abdominal twinge, and zit experienced between Doing It Day and Period Expectation Day for "signs of very early pregnancy") so the lupus flare is more likely to be a lupus flare than a baby on board.

And yes, congratulations!

carl agatha, Tuesday, 22 July 2014 13:36 (nine years ago) link

everybody out!! that's me to my uterus

jk there is no current tenant

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 22 July 2014 14:34 (nine years ago) link

*fist bump re: empty utes*

when you call my name it's like a prickly pear (Crabbits), Tuesday, 22 July 2014 14:40 (nine years ago) link

Yeah!

http://www.moparts.org/moparts/picture/ute/66ute.jpg

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Tuesday, 22 July 2014 14:44 (nine years ago) link

no boys or girls allowed in the womb
(sorry)

La Lechera, Tuesday, 22 July 2014 14:51 (nine years ago) link

Out of context my post is like "Congratulations on your lupus flare!"

carl agatha, Tuesday, 22 July 2014 15:00 (nine years ago) link

Phew! (But also sucks to yr lupus flare)

Branwell with an N, Tuesday, 22 July 2014 15:25 (nine years ago) link

[x] days babby free!

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 22 July 2014 15:38 (nine years ago) link

this is weird... but eveytime I have a pregnancy scare, I am sorta bummed when it's negative. Whiich is... ODD. Because I would be FREAKING THE FUCK OUT if it were positive.

homosexual II, Tuesday, 22 July 2014 19:01 (nine years ago) link

Same. I think mine is always that I'm bummed that an easy explanation for my weird symptoms is escaping me and I have to persue another line of questioning. Lol. And I too would be freaking the fuck out if it were pos!

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 22 July 2014 19:34 (nine years ago) link

Apols for typos

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 22 July 2014 19:34 (nine years ago) link

I've had an IUD for so long I can't remember the last time I had a pregnancy scare. I was probably like 10 years ago!

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Tuesday, 22 July 2014 20:04 (nine years ago) link

Sometimes I worry that the fact that I've never gotten accidentally knocked up is some kind of indicator that I'm infertile or that I will be by the time (if) I get around to having kids. :(

That said, while I'd be a little disappointed I've never been one of those people who wanted to be a mom their whole life or who saw that as their most important achievement. I think I'd be pretty happy fostering or adopting or even not having kids at all and doing something awesome like traveling a lot or living in a beach town on some island cause why the hell not.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Tuesday, 22 July 2014 20:06 (nine years ago) link

I do wonder if there is such a potential fertility test and if I would've taken it. I kind of had the same attitude as you re kids not being everything. Btw I never really had a preg scare but it was no indicator of having any trouble in my case...

kinder, Tuesday, 22 July 2014 20:16 (nine years ago) link

I always thought I was infertile (I mean, how could someone as anaemic as me ever get pregnant?) until I got knocked up. Boy, was that not fun. Don't ever take fertility or infertility for granted without ... I dunno, some kind of proof.

Branwell with an N, Tuesday, 22 July 2014 21:41 (nine years ago) link

No, I know. It's just something I worry/think about because worrying is sorta what I do.

Kinder - there is a test that you can have done that measures Ovarian Reserve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovarian_reserve) but whether or not it's clinically useful is debatable as it measures the cpacity of the ovary to provide egg cells that are capable of fertilization but there are other factors that can throw off the results complicate the whole business in a lot of other ways.

http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2011/08/16/humrep.der271.full

"There is only one study exploring AMH for natural fecundability in women of reproductive age (Steiner et al., 2011) and concluded that early follicular phase AMH appears to be associated with natural fertility in general population. However, this study was based only on 100 women and had a short follow up of 6 months. They have not even tested if there was any evidence of tubal or male factor infertility. Moreover, odds of pregnancy had very wide CI (0.08–0.91) to be convinced about the results.

A normal AMH level may be reassuring at the time but we do not know how long will it take for AMH to decline in an individual. Moreover, normal AMH does not guarantee conception even in an IVF setting, let alone general population. It is also unclear as to how frequently AMH levels should be tested and at what level should one be worried about rushing for interventions for fertility treatment. Unless these questions are answered and we have a validated long-term data on a general population for prediction of conception, it is premature to use AMH as a measure of long-term fertility (Broekmans et al., 2006)."

Still, I've read that some people/docs do recommend having it done if you're interesting in having kids and over 35 just to get a vague idea of where you're at in terms of your egg sitch. Idk - I might mention it to my GP the next time I see her and asks what she thinks.

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Wednesday, 23 July 2014 17:04 (nine years ago) link

I am pretty much infertile due to PCOS... until that's corrected, at least. Or... something.

homosexual II, Monday, 28 July 2014 22:42 (nine years ago) link

I was writing an email to a colleague and explaining why we did something a certain way in one case when we did it differently in a similar case and I noticed that I kept starting my sentences with, "My understanding is..." and "My take on this is..." and "From what I can tell..." and "I think in this case..." Basically softening my explanation. And then I was like, wait no let me try something and I deleted all of that soft pedaling language and just stated my opinion to him like it was a god damn fact. "We did this here because X and we do this here because Y."

It feels exhilarating (and terrifying because LOL what if I'm wrong?).

I basically just channeled Malory Ortberg of The Toast and another colleague of mine (a dude) who projects this unassailable confidence that he is right about everything he says (and somehow manages not to be a total assbutt, somehow. He's actually a really great guy. Maybe he just confidently projects that....). LEAN IN, MOTHERFUCKERS.

carl agatha, Monday, 28 July 2014 23:09 (nine years ago) link

It probably helps that I'm drinking beer while working.

carl agatha, Monday, 28 July 2014 23:09 (nine years ago) link

Reminds me of a great blog post explaining to female grad students their most common self-sabotaging moves during job negotiations: http://theprofessorisin.com/2014/03/07/stop-negotiating-like-a-girl/

ljubljana, Tuesday, 29 July 2014 10:10 (nine years ago) link

Yeah, this is Thought Catalogue and therefore, ugh, but this is not completely awful:

http://thoughtcatalog.com/nicole-tarkoff/2014/07/5-types-of-women-who-arent-in-relationships-and-why/

(I mean, why we even have to have a "this is why you're single" and go "WOW, those reasons are sensible" instead of "because you old and ugly and a total bitch who the fuck would love you (buy these products to make you less hag-like)" usual crap.)

I guess I semi-accidentally went on a date on Sunday and jesus h christ, that was just such a crash course in "why I don't date", especially why I don't date hyper-masculine heterosexual dudes, like, after hanging out with an amazing friend on Saturday, I just felt like "you know what, I'm just going to hang out with my friends for the rest of time, that is so less stressful on my nerves."

Branwell with an N, Tuesday, 29 July 2014 10:52 (nine years ago) link

You can get used to (in a good way!) a certain level of understanding and familiarity with topics. Where you don't have to explain over, and over again, what "non-binary gender" or something like that means. Because it is fucking exhausting to have those conversations over and over, with people in the ~world at large~, and you do get to a point where, in your private life, you do not want to have to have those kinds of conversations any more.

I mean, I suppose it went well enough, considering. But it's just frustrating when you try, delicately, to explain the complexity of non-binary gender, and non-binary sexuality, and someone just collapses it down to this single-dimension "oh, you're a lesbian." And, y'know, no. I am not a lesbian. It is somewhat more complicated than that. But, I guess, if dude is so black and white binary thinking that he's going to reduce it down to "you're a lesbian", then fine. I'm a lesbian. Even if that's the opposite of what I said. Maybe that will stop him trying to touch me in public. (Though I don't really appreciate dude shouting same in front of my neighbours, around whom I am very, very private.

Branwell with an N, Tuesday, 29 July 2014 11:05 (nine years ago) link

Sorry, this is not really the place, is it, and this is not the topic we are on, I just needed to kind of express some dissatisfaction in some way. :-(

Branwell with an N, Tuesday, 29 July 2014 11:10 (nine years ago) link

While I do think it serves me well to speak more confidently in my job, just FYI I don't think "leaning in" is the answer to women's woes in the workforce or society, nor do I think that speaking more confidently is some kind of panacea. Nor do I think that the problem with society is that women don't speak confidently, particularly given that doing so often gets women (and especially women of color (and the more intersectional identities someone claims, the riskier it is to deviate from the manner of business communication deemed appropriate for your presentation/station)) labeled as difficult or bitchy or manly or whatever else for doing so.

It's just something I've been trying to work on in my professional life and I felt drunk with confidence (and beer).

I mean, it's definitely a conversation to have and like I said, it's something that I think is good for me to do right now but my experience as a cis 41-year-old nice white lady with a law degree and a closet full of "gender appropriate" business clothes is far from universal.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 29 July 2014 12:59 (nine years ago) link

You know, there's a lot to be said for communicating clearly and confidently, and removing qualifiers, and learning to negotiate clearly and effectively, and that whole "negotiate like a dude" thing has some good points to it.

But that is not the whole of the story, because many times, when a person-who-is-read-as-female does "negotiate like a dude" (i.e. clearly and with confidence and without qualifiers) the chances are non-negligible that she will be punished for being "not feminine enough." So it can be a real lose-lose proposition. You can be as confident as you like, but if the person at the other end is ~threatened by confident, clearly negotiating women~ the whole thing is still not going to work. (And it's still somehow going to be seen as the woman's fault.)

So, y'know, I advocate that it is a good thing to learn, and still a good thing to do. But "women changing" without men changing in complement is not the magical solution to sexism.

So it's great that you do it, carl agatha! I am not trying to diminish your strategy, which sounds great, and positive, and good.

Branwell with an N, Tuesday, 29 July 2014 13:42 (nine years ago) link

(In short, I was agreeing with you. Sorry, it's just too hot to think here!)

Branwell with an N, Tuesday, 29 July 2014 13:46 (nine years ago) link

Completely OTM.

That's the problem with pretty much every "how to succeed in business as a woman" book/article out there. They assume everyone has the credibility afforded to able-bodied cis white women with an acceptable gender presentation when that is absolutely not the case.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 29 July 2014 14:26 (nine years ago) link

Speaking of Being Female While Working, let's play Bingo!

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/womens-blog/2014/jul/30/10-sexist-scenarios-women-deal-work-ignored-maternity-risk-everyday-sexism

1, 2, 4, 5, 6 and 8, for sure.

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 30 July 2014 10:29 (nine years ago) link

6 was a recurring sketch on Smack the Pony, which I thought was a satyrical joke until it happened to me repeatedly (more often than not, not in the workplace TBF))

kinder, Wednesday, 30 July 2014 11:28 (nine years ago) link

Where is "important email/meeting invitation goes to all the men in the team and none of the women, even if it affects everyone or it's their specialist subject"?

Keep getting that one here. Don't know if it's more annoying when you know the sender genuinely thinks you don't (need to) know/do anything in that "oh, you exist. what do you even do here anyway" kind of way, or when someone important asks how come you don't know about this thing "everyone" has been talking about for weeks, do keep up there.

My new boss is actually a woman and so far manages to get in on all these conversations by seniority so I was sort of wondering if there was a suitably tactful way to say "hey, we feel a bit ignored sometimes, so if you ever find yourself being the only woman at the table please could you ask yourself if there's anyone else who might be useful to have there?"

PS I found recent fertility talk and the pill/moods talk interesting and relevant to my recent concerns, just my replies got way too tl;dr or tmi and I deleted them, but thanks - thanks in particular for the pill/moods/side-effects article. I might come back to them when I feel, uh, pithier.

the ghosts of dead pom-bears (a passing spacecadet), Wednesday, 30 July 2014 12:28 (nine years ago) link

Realized that I haven't talked with any of my girlfriends outside of responding to texted pics of their kids in months. (Aside from the irl visit two of them made to visit me in June) and it's bumming me out so much. I don't feel bad about my life, but I miss relating to them so much that I can barely stand it. Sorry for emo-bursting but I had to put this somewhere and there's nowhere else I could put it.

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Monday, 4 August 2014 20:51 (nine years ago) link

<3

SEEMS TO ME (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 5 August 2014 01:26 (nine years ago) link

thanks
i just wrote out and deleted a long blabby post but just thanks :)
i appreciate it and hope everyone understands that i don't expect my friends to be able to have time for me, i simply lament that i feel like they're slipping away (geographical circumstances don't help) and it bums me out.

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Tuesday, 5 August 2014 02:18 (nine years ago) link

oh man

while i was in europe i got to go to zurich, where my oldest bff lives, and our other close friend from high school came over from the UK where she has lived for the last 5 years or so. the 3 of us haven't hung out together in 10 years, and bc of the time zone thing, we really talk/skype. they're also not really facebook/email type ppl so our contact times are few and far between.

the first day and half together was fucking MAGIC - we talked non stop for over 9 hours before finally going to sleep, then spent the next day in our pjs, still talking, eating junk food, watching a movie and braiding each other's hair/painting each other's nails. i was so happy, the kind of happy i haven't felt in a long time, bc i don't ever get this kind of girl time anymore.

then on the 3rd day the subject of weight/body issues/diets/food came up and jesus fucking christ. the things my bff was saying were just awful (she is slim, has a conventionally bangin' bod, has basically always been within 5lbs of the same weight as long as i've known her, doesn't have food issues or body issues). it was so depressing to hear the things coming out of her mouth. i tried to reason with her but she thinks fat people are basically lazy and that it's as simple as calories-in-calories-out.

tbh it tainted the last day and half i spent with my friends, and i was kinda glad to go back to paris :/

just1n3, Tuesday, 5 August 2014 03:48 (nine years ago) link

*rarely skype or talk

just1n3, Tuesday, 5 August 2014 03:48 (nine years ago) link

xxpost - i meant to follow up my corny symbol with actual words but lol i spaced & look like a dork now ha

LL I know it's not yr nature but I want you to know that it is so right to want yr friends to have time for you

to me it is unavoidable, natural & you are 100% allowed to have those feels even if they feel mean or needy!

which is to say as a person on the interwebs that an occasional blabbing about yr needs as a human in the world is welcome & perhaps necessary & not necess delete-worthy

not that you need permission etc

short version: that feeling sucks & i can relate

SEEMS TO ME (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 5 August 2014 04:53 (nine years ago) link

^^^

ljubljana, Tuesday, 5 August 2014 12:54 (nine years ago) link

yeah i have a well-established reeeeally hard time opening up to ppl (this is hardly the best environment for that! the vipers are everywhere!) i'm gonna try not to let it gnaw at me but yesterday was bad bc i found out that my last no-kids friend-of-20-yrs is expecting in december, no one had bothered to tell me, i texted her to say congrats, and she never wrote back. the friend who told me also did not write back after i cheerily said "please call me anytime you have a few minutes!" (to dispel the "i'd love to but i never have an hour to sit and talk with you" that I hear all the time)

if i were more self-centered, i'd think it was something i had done, but i know i haven't done anything. if it's that i haven't done enough, there's not much i can do about that either bc i am trying my best without sacrificing the other things that make me happy. on the upside, i forgot to mention it but i have had some other very positive and enriching friendship experiences recently that are totally different from my relationships with old time close gfs, but no less fun/gratifying. mostly thanks for listening. i appreciate the existence of this thread a lot.

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Tuesday, 5 August 2014 13:47 (nine years ago) link

FYI your pork recipe was praised universally (AGAIN!) last week by ppl who I'd made it for. My mom was also in the room at the time and I credited you and she enjoyed being reminded of you and your visit and how nice and fun it was!

Basically one way or the other you're never far from my mind, I think it must be your intense you-ness. <3

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Tuesday, 5 August 2014 14:07 (nine years ago) link

hey thanks! that trip was one of several "drive for hours to hang out for a night or two" trips that have been among the highlights of the last few years.

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Tuesday, 5 August 2014 14:19 (nine years ago) link

Lol my mom drove 12 hours to hang out in the Berkshires w me and 5 other crazy dancers for about 1.5 days and then drove 12 hours back--if that is "crazy," we're all in it together.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Tuesday, 5 August 2014 14:25 (nine years ago) link

I am am going to AZ in October to visit my closest female friend who I've known for over 20 years. We're going to take a road trip to Sedona and then on the way back stop at a bunch of places including a virtually abandoned Flintstones theme park and a place that specializes in pies! I am so so excited for the whole time but mostly just to spend time with her. :D

Airwrecka Bliptrap Blapmantis (ENBB), Tuesday, 5 August 2014 14:48 (nine years ago) link

that sounds fantastic!
friend roadtrips rule

I never heard back from my friend of 25 yrs that I mentioned upthread

my desperate handwritten letter to her either fell on deaf ears, got lost or she moved & didnt tell anyone

i have other longstanding friends who are still in my world & i love them also, but this one cuts deep

i will keep the candle burning but i kinda know deep down that its done :(

SEEMS TO ME (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 6 August 2014 02:55 (nine years ago) link

That is so sad. I'm sorry.

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Wednesday, 6 August 2014 03:04 (nine years ago) link

It's an awful feeling when someone you have thought of as your friend for a long time either can't or won't make time for you. It really hurts.

But people change, circumstances change; the only constant in life is change.

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 6 August 2014 08:48 (nine years ago) link

otm

SEEMS TO ME (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 7 August 2014 04:40 (nine years ago) link

I have recently distanced myself from a female friend. I feel awful, but it's come to the point where we just don't have anything in common anymore. We met at my work, 7 years ago. We were very good friends for a while, and mutual friends with another coworker. The three of us would hang out all the time. Then me and the other coworker became a lot closer. Then they both left the agency. Then the two of them had a HUGE falling out, and I was kind of caught in the middle. The original friend always wants to dine out at somewhere prohibitively expensive, or go shopping. Friend #2 just likes to chill and do dorky stuff. I feel like I have hung out far more with Friend #2 and we've become closer and closer, all while Friend #1 and I have drifted apart, to the point where i have now not seen Friend #1 since January. It's sad to see a friendship end, but.... I just can't force it.

homosexual II, Thursday, 7 August 2014 17:28 (nine years ago) link

I asked Friend #1 to hang out and do something chill, like go on a walk or see a movie, about 2 months ago. She replied "I want to go to sushi and dancing!" - I had like, $20 in my bank account. This is why we never get together.

homosexual II, Thursday, 7 August 2014 17:31 (nine years ago) link

three weeks pass...

one of my favorite old friends called me yesterday and it made me so happy -- like, she had a minute and thought of me and actually called me. it was great.

that's not why i bumped this thread though -- i was listening to the radio today and this lady was talking about a book she wrote about menopause (mostly a lol memoir type thing i think but i don't know who she is tbh). she was going on about how women in peri- and full menopause have less estrogen in their bodies, so they start to act less caring and nurturing and wanting to do fewer things for other people. she used an example of a woman getting hostile because her kids wanted her to fold their clothes or something like that. and i was like hold on -- (this is my question) -- estrogen doesn't make a person nurturing, right? the decreased amt of it doesn't make someone (like a woman going through The Change) un-nurturing, right?

i mean it sounded like garbage but she was saying it confidently and the interviewer didn't say anything contrary (this was on npr, "here and now" i think?) so i wondered if maybe i am ignorant about estrogen? then i googled and the only things that come up are garbage, so...that's not true, right? that is to say: there is not a relationship between estrogen and nurturing behaviors? i feel kinda dumb even asking this but it has been bugging me.

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Tuesday, 2 September 2014 22:51 (nine years ago) link

For Ivy's sake I hope it's garbage bc I have a suspicion I'm going right from post-partum to peri-menopause (I still haven't gotten my period so fingers crossed it just never comes back).

More likely the last in the example was just tired of folding all the damn clothes all the time.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 2 September 2014 23:00 (nine years ago) link

Lady not last

carl agatha, Tuesday, 2 September 2014 23:00 (nine years ago) link

Also my mom went through menopause when she was my age. I just found this out. It's like, could you have mentioned that before I waited until I was 37 to start trying to have a kid? Dang.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 2 September 2014 23:02 (nine years ago) link

yeah it sounded like str8 horseshit but at the same time she said it like it was a known truth and all of sudden i was like huh?!
like i know there are premenstrual estrogen spikes and i know that they affect my mood, but that mood has nothing (NOTHING) to do with a tendency for or against "nurturing"

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Tuesday, 2 September 2014 23:08 (nine years ago) link

yeah that seems like horseshit but idk

SEEMS TO ME (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 2 September 2014 23:40 (nine years ago) link

Yeah let's not discount the likelihood (HIGH, IMO) that what she's talking about is women deciding that sacrificing themselves, their time, etc, for other people is NOT THEIR DUTY TO THE WORLD. A person can't just get tired of that shit?? Please.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Wednesday, 3 September 2014 00:02 (nine years ago) link

Or, what carl said.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Wednesday, 3 September 2014 00:02 (nine years ago) link

i heard that too. i don't ever feel a very nurturing instinct and i was tired so i felt like "oh, i guess that's what it is, i'm menopausal"

flatizza (harbl), Wednesday, 3 September 2014 00:10 (nine years ago) link

harbl otm -- i've been menopausal since, like, birth

sarahell, Wednesday, 3 September 2014 00:15 (nine years ago) link

well obvs that's what i was thinking too!!! i didn't explicitly say it but

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Wednesday, 3 September 2014 00:23 (nine years ago) link

sisterhood of the travellong fuck this bullshit pants

SEEMS TO ME (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 3 September 2014 01:02 (nine years ago) link

Sisterhood of the traveling I'm tired of bleeding in these stupid pants.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 3 September 2014 01:16 (nine years ago) link

Also LL I think you are a pretty nurturing person! Not mothering, but you definitely care for people and dogs around you. Also you always have snacks.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 3 September 2014 01:18 (nine years ago) link

snackmom

SEEMS TO ME (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 3 September 2014 01:29 (nine years ago) link

I am, but I've got enormous doubts that it has anything to do with estrogen. The more estrogen I feel, the more I despair at the general state of human existence tbrr. PMS makes me depreeeeeeeeeeessed. If that's an estrogen spike, no thx. Tying nurturing to estrogen just seems depressing to me. That this lady thought it was funny made me bummed out about the general understanding re: how women's bodies work :(

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Wednesday, 3 September 2014 01:36 (nine years ago) link

it adds a lot of extra (& unnecessary) anxiety about nurturing.. & estrogen levels in general. telling women that you need 'this much' estrogen to somehow attain a motherly instinct? like, it's bad enough that women are constantly called into question for not being motherly enough & all of the stigma tied to post partum depression without feeling like they have to meet some kind of estrogen goal where they suddenly will be delighted to fold their kids clothes... fuck that

SEEMS TO ME (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 3 September 2014 01:43 (nine years ago) link

yeah OTM the both of youse.

carl agatha, Wednesday, 3 September 2014 01:45 (nine years ago) link

sisterhood of the travellong fuck this bullshit pants

― SEEMS TO ME (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, September 3, 2014 1:02 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Sisterhood of the traveling I'm tired of bleeding in these stupid pants.

― carl agatha, Wednesday, September 3, 2014 1:16 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

<3 <3 <3

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Wednesday, 3 September 2014 02:20 (nine years ago) link

WIN

SEEMS TO ME (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 3 September 2014 02:25 (nine years ago) link

well obvs that's what i was thinking too!!! i didn't explicitly say it but

― cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Wednesday, September 3, 2014 12:23 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah I got you! I just have to overstate everything, you know me.

feeling like they have to meet some kind of estrogen goal where they suddenly will be delighted to fold their kids clothes.

OTM--this is that emotional labor. DOING labor isn't enough, you have to pretend it's your greatest pleasure in life lest anyone think you don't love them enough.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Wednesday, 3 September 2014 02:33 (nine years ago) link

So last night I had my first appointment with a nutritionist which was probably long overdue but it left me so excited and hopeful. Our whole goal is to work on my mentality of good foods v. bad foods and dieting or restriction and food-associated guilt in general. Basically we're trying to reshape the entire way I think about food and body image. We're going to try to do with using intuitive eating and I'm not allowed to track or count anything anymore which is both liberating and terrifying. I was also interested to learn that I was eating way few calories on most days and then overcompensating on weekends and throwing everything off whack. Anyway - this whole thing should be very interested and I'm excited to be doing it. Between this and my 2x a week therapy I'm pretty sick of talking/thinking about myself but I'm hoping it'll all be worth it soon.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Tuesday, 9 September 2014 13:01 (nine years ago) link

Good luck, E. That sounds really interesting, and I hope you find it useful.

Shugazi (Branwell with an N), Tuesday, 9 September 2014 13:18 (nine years ago) link

Thank you :).

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Tuesday, 9 September 2014 13:56 (nine years ago) link

That's a lot of hard work! You should be proud!

carl agatha, Tuesday, 9 September 2014 15:24 (nine years ago) link

E, I'm in an online coaching group doing something similar, and also an almost unbelievably good online forum. Think I still have your email, will send you a forum link.

ljubljana, Tuesday, 9 September 2014 16:48 (nine years ago) link

Oh man - please do! I would LOVE that. :D

And thanks, Carl. :D It often feels like a lot and sometimes it's overwhleming and feels like everything is worse than ever but I feel like it has to get worse before it gets better sometimes and trust that it's all worthwhile.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Tuesday, 9 September 2014 18:03 (nine years ago) link

E that sounds cool. i'm into intuitive eating. now that I'm almost 30 i feel so much less bad about my enormous body and proud of how much i eat. even when my looks-obsessed co-worker is saying insane things and putting water on her salad i shovel still more food into my mouth. like hey this rice is awesome i put butter in it. i learned that it does not make me fat it just makes me into an engine. or it does make me fat and i'm ok with it. i am like a wall of person and no one can knock me over. also i am healthy as a horse. i love eating and being strong.

flatizza (harbl), Tuesday, 9 September 2014 18:51 (nine years ago) link

WTG E! Yeah that sounds like a lot of heavy stuff to deal with all at once, but it's def worth the effort! It'll be worth the trouble when you realize how much of your brain is freed from not thinking about all that stuff all the time. Then you can use it to think about other more interesting things, things of your choosing.

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Tuesday, 9 September 2014 19:22 (nine years ago) link

wait does she really put water on her salad?

carl agatha, Tuesday, 9 September 2014 19:43 (nine years ago) link

yes that is absolutely true

flatizza (harbl), Tuesday, 9 September 2014 22:35 (nine years ago) link

she puts vinegar and then i guess feels like it needs something to cut it but doesn't want to put oil because that has fat in it so she sprinkles a little water on it

flatizza (harbl), Tuesday, 9 September 2014 22:35 (nine years ago) link

that is the saddest sentence

horseshoe, Tuesday, 9 September 2014 22:50 (nine years ago) link

anyway yay E! so happy for you!

horseshoe, Tuesday, 9 September 2014 22:51 (nine years ago) link

water on salad
ok now I've heard everything

difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 9 September 2014 23:13 (nine years ago) link

E that sounds like a really great approach! I'm excited for u

I hope you can report back to us your findings and the things that are blowing your mind/rocking your world as you progress.

I have had to go back into a healthy eating mode that I am trying really hard to not allow to become Awful Diet Brain. I would love to hear more about intuitive eating discoveries if anyone has stuff they want to share to maybe inspire me and others

difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 9 September 2014 23:16 (nine years ago) link

Veg, I will FB message you the same link I sent E. I've copied and pasted a ton of stuff from the board so that I can reflect on it. Paraphrasing some of that pretty closely to reflect my own experience:

Something that's been a real game-changer is thinking about what MY happiest, best approach to food might look like. It's entirely possible to have goals that are related to sustainable body changes that are geared to making you feel awesome, and other, just-as-important goals about food enjoyment, and Have It All. Food enjoyment might entail stuff like deciding to try every flavour of Ben & Jerry's or have pizza for breakfast regularly or never go a day without a nut butter or whatever floats your boat.

BUT, drop/tweak the things that you don't enjoy and won't miss, and addd in foods and behaviours you do want, rather than just cutting stuff out.

So it becomes like a sort of relaxed, curious, playful game where you win at getting the most enjoyment from your food every day. You remove the feeling of being constantly negative, broken, trying to control everything, 'at war'. No deadlines or pressure, no foods ruled out. The most important thing is long-term consistency with the broad patterns, not short term inflexibility.

I discovered all this stuff last October. I've been through a few phases since then: 1. unbridled joy at eating whatever I damn well want. 2. clinging to that a bit too much and eating more than I actually wanted. Sort of proving to myself I was allowed. 3. Slowly realizing that this was not only 'not worth it' in some theoretical sense, like 'not supposed to be worth it but I secretly love it', but actually, objectively no fun. I had to do it over and over and over again to be sure! 4. eating less. I only got to 'eating less' in about July. I'm finding clothes are looser now, and that's happening very, very slowly, and that's absolutely fine by me.

I'm doing 0 exercise except walking, and not even that much walking. I'd like to do more, but this kind of approach to eating is totally decoupled from any formal exercise at all.

ljubljana, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 03:40 (nine years ago) link

^^^ this is where I want to be

difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 10 September 2014 03:46 (nine years ago) link

I am so excited to be doing this and have just started to read some of the stuff on the boards. So far I haven't counted a single calorie but have continued to make healthy choices. I'm recording where I am on the hunger scale and how I feel after eating. I'm also eating a lot more slowly and listening to my body as best I can. It's been pretty interesting so far. I have a busy week coming up so don't know how much I'll be able to devote to learning more but I'm going to keep doing this and dig deeper as soon as I can.

:)

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Thursday, 11 September 2014 14:56 (nine years ago) link

Nice! I don't use the hunger scale because it focuses me a bit too much on each bite (what about now? what about NOW?) but I do try to keep a background awareness of how full I'm getting. Mostly I try to 'pre-decide' how much is going to satisfy me and hold me a good few hours, and then just eat that, and I get better at that over time (there's a lot about pre-deciding on the boards)

ljubljana, Thursday, 11 September 2014 18:12 (nine years ago) link

Today was triggery. I just typed out a big long post about "false" rape accusations and the narrative surrounding them, but I don't have the energy to deal with the fall-out and the flappy-headed little boys today.

Someone can be falsely accused of murder, but it doesn't seem to mean that murder "isn't real" and all murder victims somehow faked it. Someone can be falsely accused of theft, but it doesn't seem to mean that theft "isn't real", and all theft victims made it up. But the existence of one single false rape accusation somehow often just gets twisted to mean that rape is ~not really a thing~, and all women are liars.

And I've just been sent down the awfully triggery memory hole about that time that I really, really was raped, and had the bruising and the vaginal injuries to prove it, but because I'd been drinking, and had a history of mental illness, the police pressured me into dropping the whole thing. And that's not a fun place to be. Especially not for the amusement and self-righteous flapping-headedness of little boys who muuuuuust discuss these pressing issues to maintain some edgy, contrarian stance.

Welcome to reality. No spitting, please. (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 24 September 2014 14:46 (nine years ago) link

im so sorry, branwell. it's so wrong

1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 24 September 2014 16:29 (nine years ago) link

yeah
I hear this 'police pressured me into dropping it' a lot, and each time I'm shocked, partly because it seems almost a piteous cliche now that surely we MUST be past but no, it's apparently reality for A LOT of people.

kinder, Wednesday, 24 September 2014 16:39 (nine years ago) link

You know, when it happened, I was like, shit, I am a bad feminist, and a bad rape victim and it's my fault for not being stronger, and choosing to focus on trying to get on with my life and crumbling in the face of the realisation that the police were far more interested in researching my life than catching the assailant. But the more women I've talked to, and the more times I've heard the same story, it's like, no, this is a thing. But oh no! It's just anecdata, and men are the real victims here, etc blah blah.

But, y'know, when having certain conversations carries an emotional cost for certain parties in them, that means those voices get marginalised further because you can't have another conversation again.

And of course I'm thinking to myself "this is my fault that I'm walking around with this tempest in my head now." (Oh! I finally worked out what would stop the tempest again. Start drinking. Breaking mine own rules over not drinking because I'm upset.) Because I was not in a great place to start with today, no sleep, sinus headache, rude headhunter ringing at 8am, super stressed over job situation, bummed out over deceased friend's birthday yesterday, 0 stretch room for absorbing any extra give and take, and boom there it is.

Broken record, this shit is so boring. And yet it still has the capability to mess you up when you least expect it.

Welcome to reality. No spitting, please. (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 24 September 2014 19:17 (nine years ago) link

really otm, esp this
Broken record, this shit is so boring. And yet it still has the capability to mess you up when you least expect it.

this one hit me right in the gut after i realized how many times i had brushed it under the carpet because it was easier than dealing with it head on

http://www.rookiemag.com/2014/09/harassment-at-work/

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Wednesday, 24 September 2014 19:20 (nine years ago) link

When one feels bad for not-saying-something, but even worse for saying something. :-/

The exhaustion, vs the fear of making things even worse.

Welcome to reality. No spitting, please. (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 24 September 2014 19:25 (nine years ago) link

Man, this sounds awful, but if I could go back and not report getting raped to the police, I would never have done so. It was a horrible process, and ended up with 0 effect on the bad guy and a long, drawn-out, ugly pile of bullshit for me. The only thing I can figure is if I didn't do it, I would probably feel guilty about not having done so. People said all kinds of stupid things like, "What if he's doing the same thing to his daughter?" (who was 2 years old). That seems...improbable. Thanks for the consolance, though.

King Clone (Crabbits), Wednesday, 24 September 2014 22:57 (nine years ago) link

I made a lot of comics about talking to the cops at the time and they are not any good. Very solipsistic. And nothing I'd want to share or look at now. But that got me through it.

King Clone (Crabbits), Wednesday, 24 September 2014 22:58 (nine years ago) link

Something can have been "the right thing to do" at the time, and still be something you would never in a million years ever do again if you could go back.

I mean, if I got a magic do-over wand on my life, I probably wouldn't have gone to the police. But if I had that magic do-over wand, I wouldn't have gone out that night, or gone to that bar, or ... *insert missing memories here* ... that ended with me coming round from total unconsciousness with a guy on top of me assaulting me. But it's the *missing memories* which were unfortunately a huge part of my life, at that stage of my life, which complicate everything so much. The guilt that I don't know, and will never know the full story. The guilt that it was my fault.

But Crabbits, knowing that you had pretty much the most straightforward story, and STILL got fucked over by the "justice" system. It's like, OK, stop blaming myself, even if I had those memories, chances are, it would not have changed the outcome. I am so sorry that you went through that awful process. I am so sorry that the long, ugly, drawn-out pile of bullshit happened and this is a world where these things exist.

I'd like to not lose another day to having that particular set of memories rattling around my head.

I'm tired of having to be strong about this all the time.

I'd like for once in my life, not to be seen as the problem or seen as ~controversial~ or wicked or terrible or, y'know, the whole "OMG, attention seeking!" trope, but as someone who has been badly damaged, and who is vulnerable.

I'd like to be given the benefit of the doubt which gets handed out regularly to people who have acted a lot worse than I have.

But, like, allowing yourself to be vulnerable in public means opening yourself up to every flapping-head boy who thinks it's a fun game "that person has a weak spot, let's follow them around poking it."

At the moment, I am not coping with this. But I reserve the right to be treated as a human being who is not coping.

Welcome to reality. No spitting, please. (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 25 September 2014 09:20 (nine years ago) link

i respect u ~*~ <3

King Clone (Crabbits), Thursday, 25 September 2014 23:52 (nine years ago) link

I finally have a bicycle-riding fitness buddy who is cool with me being leagues behind others at rate of fitness progress.
She's cool and smart and shy and the huffy-puffy isolation of the bike trail is a great time to socialize.
Also a great time to be silent together.
This is the first time I've had a buddy to get real with where we're not drinking in order to get real.
It's cool.

Also I hope LL doesn't feel like I'm ripping her off when I announce I signed up for a couple lessons at a local drums tudio.
Percussion class was my DREAM in sixth grade but my parents forbade me joining it, saying it "wasn't for girls."
I was so deeply jealous of the one girl in that percussion class.

King Clone (Crabbits), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 02:39 (nine years ago) link

I might suck ass at drumming but at least I will KNOW EMPIRICALLY.

King Clone (Crabbits), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 02:41 (nine years ago) link

i wish you the best, as always
i was hoping you would play guitar so we could start a band but this is what you want!

i'm feeling kinda moderately low about it tbh because i am trying really hard to make things happen and it doesn't seem to be enough
i love playing and i am getting better all the time and am trying to be proud of myself without seeming like a braggart and what i want is really quite modest but i feel like there is something cosmically telling me that i haven't earned it yet or i don't deserve it, that i waited too long and have too many hangups and am too old and too whatever to be taken seriously, therefore everything i attempt is going to fail in spite of it being completely achievable for many people i know

that is bumming me out but the act of the drumming, no -- that is still extremely enjoyable and is going really well. i think it was definitely something i could have been doing a long time ago if i had had the opportunity.

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 03:05 (nine years ago) link

so embarrassing clicking post on that but there it is

had the opportunity --> given myself the opportunity

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 03:06 (nine years ago) link

don't listen to that inner rotten morrissey

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf1g00qbv10

my private solution with 'art' that i am already good at – drawing – is to cut myself down before ever getting the chance to feel like the tall poppy
it's just for my private enjoyment
it's just to express personal things
it's just a cute piffle for someone's birthday card
it's something that if I do feel deeply about to obfusticate it in a million oblique angles so no one can ever get what it was behind it

I feel your shit, LL! Everything is too ___. I wish I could jam out with you but my secret dream play along is the chapman stick! I did look into getting skype lessons but it was just too cost prohibitive.

King Clone (Crabbits), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 03:10 (nine years ago) link

I was in occupational therapy for motor skills stuff for the first 5 years of school; I am legitimately 'delayed' in that area. I didn't feel good at anything physical until a few years ago. It gives me hope but I have been too self-conscious to do anything but solo pursuits at anything until now. And I still suck and am slow and demand more patience than may have. So I hope this drum teacher is OK. Will have to be OK that I can never be K8 Bush or Tony Chapman.

King Clone (Crabbits), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 03:13 (nine years ago) link

blurgh Tony Levin obv

King Clone (Crabbits), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 03:14 (nine years ago) link

part of my problem is that i am not an artist
i am not a person who has "expressed myself" via any artistic medium
it's new for me to express myself at all, at least publicly

it's not something i'm proud of :-/

i don't even know what the tall poppy is (i've heard the phrase but it has never applied to me personally)

anyway the whole process is excruciating but i feel it has been good for me and necessary, if overly fraught
i just don't want this emotional part to interfere with my ability to make my shit happen
and that's what i'm afraid of
the end

also record some of your initial impressions and i could use them (with your permission) in my presentation that i am trying to put together for work about the intersection of language learning and music learning!!

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 03:19 (nine years ago) link

and yeah that song is basically my inner voice from the age of 14

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 03:23 (nine years ago) link

if you can deal with some shitty phone recordings then, yes!
By 'tall poppy' I mean I want to stand out but I am terrified of doing so because the pain of getting cut down is too painful
I think you are a cool person and I could wax on that a lot but sometimes it's not good to put someone on the spot

King Clone (Crabbits), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 03:26 (nine years ago) link

I love your blond wig collage thing and think of it often

King Clone (Crabbits), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 03:26 (nine years ago) link

wait wait what did I just say

King Clone (Crabbits), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 03:27 (nine years ago) link

i know what you mean
that was a big deal for me!

all of the recordings i've one have been shitty phone recordings -- those are no problem, but i mean record your thoughts! your feelings before and after. they're fleeting, so i think it's impt to catch them right at the beginning.
and thanks. i appreciate it. i cherish each and every time someone steps out on a limb and says something nice about something i've made.

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 03:32 (nine years ago) link

do you believe in a silent period in music learning??

King Clone (Crabbits), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 03:33 (nine years ago) link

Ha, my life from 5-37 was my silent period! Listening, absorbing, learning patterns. Yeah, in a way I think so. Not formally though. I tried to not get caught in the trap of being afraid to produce sounds from the beginning this time.

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 03:38 (nine years ago) link

Oops one --> DONE above

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 03:39 (nine years ago) link

haha makes sense
well I'll keep you posted

King Clone (Crabbits), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 04:03 (nine years ago) link

"tall poppy syndrome" is a very common expression in new zealand but i've had to explain it to a few americans.

just1n3, Tuesday, 30 September 2014 04:15 (nine years ago) link

there is a broad (ugh, sorry) range of skill levels for drumming -- even people that regularly get on stage and play, some only play very basic, not-particularly fast, and that is fine, if that is fulfilling, because ultimately, it's primarily about making yourself happy and having fun.

As someone who initially had aspirations towards being "professional," deciding that playing music was something I do to make myself happy/keep from going insane, and that I would be better off just being "an amateur" -- it was a real relief. Not that I don't have "issues" about it, but focusing less on the comparing myself to others in terms of attention, praise, whether people would respond differently if I were male ... has been very helpful

sarahell, Tuesday, 30 September 2014 05:44 (nine years ago) link

Also Crabbits, as a scooter-rider, you probably have good balance, which will help if you're playing a drum kit

sarahell, Tuesday, 30 September 2014 05:49 (nine years ago) link

If you mean by "silent periods" that you take breaks between playing, that's actually a good idea. For learning any new skill (languages or motor skills like learning an instrument) then frequent practice with rest periods inbetween is way better than just one long practice. The brain needs time to process what you've learned, and move it from short-term memory to long-term memory. If you find you're dreaming about the thing you're trying to learn that's a *really* good sign, in terms of memory acquisition.

I don't want to go all hippie and say "everybody's an artist!!!" no, really, *everybody* has the ability to be an artist. Everybody has a unique story, and things to express, and a voice to be heard. Especially you, LL.

I think for some people the hard part is accepting that you have a right to tell your story, and the faith that there might be other people out there who are willing to - or even want to - hear what you say! (typical Branwell thing to say, but: that automatic expectation that some people seem to just have, that they have a right to assume, or even demand an audience - that's not necessarily Being An Artist. Sometimes that's just an expression of Privilege.) There are times when even the whole thing of "I have the right to exist, the right to take up space - in my own life, and on the wall - and to make noise and be heard" is a very hard thing to believe. And there are so many people out there who enjoy squishing other people and their dreams, who will tell you 'you don't', if they have half a chance. But I'm here to tell you that you do, you do have that right. Make noise. Take up space. Enjoy yourself.

Welcome to reality. No spitting, please. (Branwell with an N), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 09:09 (nine years ago) link

And you, too, Crabbitts! (Sorry, I thought I said your name earlier; I have not had my second cup of tea yet.) Be the tallest damned poppy on the block!

Like, seriously, there are people who are gonna try to cut you down just for the audacity of thinking you could be a poppy. So be the tallest damn poppy anyone's ever seen.

Welcome to reality. No spitting, please. (Branwell with an N), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 09:12 (nine years ago) link

I miss making music more than I miss almost anything else, it feels like a phantom limb, sometimes, it still hurts and it still aches. I probably miss making music - with other people, that is - more than I miss having sex with other people, and haha, I've done it more recently.

I find it so hard to make music even for myself these days. I tried getting a guitar to keep on the end of my bed, but I play it like once a month. Often by accident, like, I'll pick it up to move it, and the heft of it in my hands feels like "oh, I remember how to do this" and start mucking about, playing fake Kessler-riffs to make fun of him. And for about ten, twenty minutes, I'll be all "wah-hey, this is so much fun! why did I stop this?"

And then I turn around to share the riff with someone else, and bounce it off someone and see what they play back at me - because that is the most fun, and the most tight and most glorious form of communication I know, the call and response of 'you play the guitar bit, I'll work out a bassline' and suddenly there is this joyful burst of music and you're laughing with your bandmate because that kind of closeness of making songs together it's better than sex - and of course there is no one there, so I put the guitar back down and think "what the fuck was I thinking? I don't play guitar any more."

Like, I can't be bothered to go through with it, if there's no one to share it with. And that's when the phantom limb aches real bad.

Welcome to reality. No spitting, please. (Branwell with an N), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 09:20 (nine years ago) link

I'm becoming more and more convinced that I have some kind of motor skills issue like dyspraxia or something. I've always had no sense of balance, slow reactions, been worst in the class at sports/PE, needlework, etc. I spent years playing the guitar but never got past a slow, uneven lurch through the basics; I'd practise a new riff all evening and get it sounding OK and come back to it the next day and it'd be like I'd never played it before again.

I hate cooking because the chopping takes me ages and I can't coordinate all the different bits to be done in the same timeframe. My ex refused to be in the flat while I was cooking because he said he couldn't bear to watch me do it (possibly also because I'd usually get frustrated and shout/cry and bang things around, ahem). Oh yeah, and I can't ride or even get on a bike, or swim, or drive.

The only vaguely motor-skillsy thing I ever could do supposedly "well" was that people said I could draw well, when I was a small kid and doodled all day. I hated organised art lessons though and eventually the fun drained out of drawing. It occurs to me that what I actually liked/was "good" at was drawing from imagination and I was bad at drawing from "real life" i.e. not good at drawing at all. In fact, I think I was never even drawing what was in my imagination. I was just good at drawing a wiggly curvy line and whatever it came out like I could add different wiggly curvy lines until it looked like something, anything, something I'd never intended, usually unrepeatably. A sort of no-motor-skills-required approach to drawing, really.

Still, I know I have a habit of diagnosing myself with all the probably imaginary things, and once you leave school you're not going to get any official diagnoses so you just have to get over yourself and not get sad that you wanted to have a talent and maybe people would like you more if you weren't unable to dress presentably, or speak clearly without noises falling out of your mouth in a jumble, or if you could go cycling like all your acquaintances are way into etc. Right? Sigh.

club mate martyr (a passing spacecadet), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 10:46 (nine years ago) link

"people said I could draw well, when I was a small kid and doodled all day"

PS possibly one of my favourite compliments I ever received was when a schoolfriend introduced me to someone new as "a good draw-er". I felt so proud! also "hey kid, you're a real good drawer, gonna build you into a chest of drawers some day" etc etc

anyway LL and Crabbitts and anyone else discovering new skills that make them happy, new ways to overcome physical deficiencies or anxieties, new anythings: that is awesome, I am so glad for you, and I hope you continue to become good at and/or feel good about new things (bcz I know it can't always be both, but if it can be one or the other, even a little, you're getting somewhere)

club mate martyr (a passing spacecadet), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 10:48 (nine years ago) link

and once you leave school you're not going to get any official diagnoses so you just have to get over yourself

I'm sorry, but this just isn't true, from direct personal experience. And there are quite a few other ILX0rs who have Diagnoses of Things well into adulthood.

Granted, getting a diagnosis as an adult requires a level of self determination and perseverance (and sometimes going and camping in doctor's offices, repeating, "I think I have X, because of symptoms Y and Z, is there a test you can give me, or if not, is there a specialist you can send me to who can?" like a mantra until they realise that you are going to be difficult and not give up and go away) which can be like an unassailable mountain when you are already suffering from depression and self esteem issues.

Depression can be like that mountain that stands in the way. (And there's also sometimes the question of, is there really anything they can *do* about it once you're an adult? Even if it's just teach you coping skills? But you can research that on the web without leaving the comfort of bed.) But that's the kind of thing I certainly used to address with my therapist. Like, those ordinary things that other people seemed to manage perfectly fine, but I couldn't deal with (going to the doctor, calling the boiler engineer to fix the heating in February) I would actually sit down with my therapist and she would talk me through what it would take to get me walking on whatever path to get me up and through the mountain pass into the magical land of Having Heating or Seeing The Doctor And Getting Medicine For That Nagging Thing.

Mountains are tough, but if there's one thing that hiking and nature writing has taught me is that sometimes even fat heffalump schlubs like me can get up and over them.

OK, I still can't ride a fucking bicycle, but maybe someday. And maybe some day I'll learn to surf, too. Right after I have to re-learn to swim, again, for the fifth time.

Welcome to reality. No spitting, please. (Branwell with an N), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 11:36 (nine years ago) link

Hey, I don't want to be a fucking cheerleader and be all "You! Too! Can climb mountains!" because really, fuck that, I want to punch that attitude in the face when people dare do it to me.

I am not underestimating the hugeness and insurmountableness of these kinds of things when you are living with depression. Mountains are a fucking problem.

But just trying to say, that for me, when I could still afford therapy, talking about THOSE FUCKEN MOUNTAINS, was a big help, for me. Your mileage and mountaineering efforts may be different.

Now I want to punch myself in the face, so I'm going to go and work on my "leaving the house today" badge.

Welcome to reality. No spitting, please. (Branwell with an N), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 11:49 (nine years ago) link

Eh, I know. It's 20% that getting a diagnosis would cost £££ to see a private specialist and probably not actually result in any benefits (also you'll be told repeatedly that you can spell and draw a box between some dots and have a job so there can't possibly be anything wrong with you) and 80% "maybe I am just imagining it, I mean I can't have all these things wrong with me I keep deciding are wrong with me, and I don't really want the embarrassment of being a time-waster".

My old GP retired and I liked him a lot but he did have a slightly stuffy kids-just-need-a-stern-talking-to streak so I've never felt very free to go there with my GP, but maybe I will with the next one?

Though I've dropped hints about my latest imagined developmental and personality disorders to therapists I've been seeing about depression but IME asking about anything else (even a thing which might be an underlying cause of depression) just results in being told that it's the depression that makes you think any negative thoughts, whether they're that socialising is complicated and alien and people always expect you to get stuff that you aren't getting, or that you're clumsy and bad at things which other people don't even think are things. But maybe, just maybe...

(and tbf they probably just want to go "no, you mustn't believe you'll never get over that mountain, so agreeing there might be something innately un-mountain-climby about you would be counterproductive". Which is a fair attitude, really. And also I don't even know if I want coping skills - a little, but enough to work at them? - or just a badge to point to next time someone goes "everybody can ride a bike, why can't you x, why do you make such a big deal about tiny everyday things, bla" so I can officially not give a toss what they say. Which I suppose I could already try not giving, badge or no badge.)

club mate martyr (a passing spacecadet), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 12:07 (nine years ago) link

on the bright side, i feel a renewed energy about this now that i have spewed my innermost feelings
thanks for listening
and really, i know it's not cool to be super posi all the time but i have to be or else i don't see any point in continuing anything
so let's get to it

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 12:42 (nine years ago) link

yah the main thing that makes me feel better is just slowly getting better at shit
After 2 years of cycling I think I have outgrown my 3-gear bike! That or I am just covetous of the idea of a new bicycle.
I'm pretty clumsy and slow at a lot of things still but my thought now is not 'I suck' but 'everyone else is just going to have to learn patience'

King Clone (Crabbits), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 14:08 (nine years ago) link

Otm
I don't suck. I'm a student.

Learning is a complicated process and I believe the emotional component is up there with the proficiency component. Hence my work project.

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 14:18 (nine years ago) link

love the term "inner rotten morrissey"

always keeping my IRM in check

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 1 October 2014 03:51 (nine years ago) link

loooooooooooool I never knew that as a Morissey song, I only know the Kirsty MacColl version.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Wednesday, 1 October 2014 15:05 (nine years ago) link

That voice is loud and clear my own teenage/adolescent voice and it needs to be silenced for sure.

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Wednesday, 1 October 2014 15:16 (nine years ago) link

i can't even blame it on morrissey -- he just confirmed what i already thought was true
adolescence was a bummer avalanche
sorry guys this is totally embarrassing me and i need to stop talking about it

how about this nice weather eh

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Wednesday, 1 October 2014 16:00 (nine years ago) link

this is so good i made a pdf of it

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/28/opinion/sunday/learning-to-love-criticism.html

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Wednesday, 1 October 2014 18:35 (nine years ago) link

76 percent of the negative feedback given to women included some kind of personality criticism, such as comments that the woman was “abrasive,” “judgmental” or “strident.” Only 2 percent of men’s critical reviews included negative personality comments.

holy shit

just1n3, Wednesday, 1 October 2014 18:39 (nine years ago) link

love it

difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 2 October 2014 03:01 (nine years ago) link

A friend of mine posted in despair on FB recently that she'd been bullied by her boss, cried because of it, and was frustrated to be informed her crying was "aggressive". WTF!?

nb: do not know if said boss was male or female, but I am just realising i find it curious that my knee jerk was to assume female.. hm.

Gumbercules? I love that guy! (Trayce), Thursday, 2 October 2014 03:18 (nine years ago) link

i am so tired of the way men routinely talk to me that i am reaching some kind of breaking point

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Sunday, 5 October 2014 17:58 (nine years ago) link

^^^^^^ this

tired of dudes who act like they know it all and are just kind of mediocre and unpleasant. whose mode of conversation is incessant snarky, smug, put down, dismissive comments about everything and anything (and especially about women). dude can't you roll your eyes at everything privately, without talking? that would be nice

(walks away/puts headphones back on)

seriously, THIS GUY (daria-g), Sunday, 5 October 2014 18:33 (nine years ago) link

I was looking for the cosine gif, but I can't find it since Google changed the GIS results format, but pretend I just posted an animated gif with a circle tracing a cosine and said "cosign".

Welcome to reality. No spitting, please. (Branwell with an N), Sunday, 5 October 2014 18:51 (nine years ago) link

my breaking point came when 2 guy friends joined a facebook conversation i was involved in the "bring reason into the argument" (while simultaneously accusing me of trying to "railroad" them, and invoking our friendship against my disagreeing with them). I posted a long-ass screed decrying every close male friend i have ever had and all the fucked up things they have done to me. the apologies have been pouring in! no care evar!

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Monday, 6 October 2014 14:23 (nine years ago) link

feeling righteous, woke up doing the bobby gillespie clap

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Monday, 6 October 2014 14:23 (nine years ago) link

gah that is the best feeling
feels so good to be free of emotional dead weight

new day rising!

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Monday, 6 October 2014 14:41 (nine years ago) link

I'm so sorry about the bobby gillespie clap, but you know there is a course of antibiotics you can get for that.

*boom-tish*

Welcome to reality. No spitting, please. (Branwell with an N), Monday, 6 October 2014 15:02 (nine years ago) link

(Sorry, Roxy, couldn't resist. I am glad that you managed to clear the air.)

Welcome to reality. No spitting, please. (Branwell with an N), Monday, 6 October 2014 15:02 (nine years ago) link

hahaha!

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Monday, 6 October 2014 15:26 (nine years ago) link

someday id like to do the same here, clearing the air about fucked up things people have done and said to me on ilx. not today tho

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Monday, 6 October 2014 15:27 (nine years ago) link

good luck with that :P

King Clone (Crabbits), Monday, 6 October 2014 15:30 (nine years ago) link

sorry shouldn't be such a cynic

King Clone (Crabbits), Monday, 6 October 2014 15:31 (nine years ago) link

and i will couple it with an apology for being a party to some, or loling in the background

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Monday, 6 October 2014 15:31 (nine years ago) link

dunno if I'm incredibly lucky or something, but my male friends do not pull shit like that with me, ever.

sarahell, Monday, 6 October 2014 20:18 (nine years ago) link

uh you are incredibly lucky. like someone born with 5 clits or something

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Monday, 6 October 2014 20:19 (nine years ago) link

there is one dude who is a member of the noise co-op I am also a member of who will sometimes be condescending in a way that we have discussed in this thread, but I don't consider that dude a friend.

sarahell, Monday, 6 October 2014 20:24 (nine years ago) link

lol at the five clits

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Monday, 6 October 2014 20:24 (nine years ago) link

or i mean maybe its not luck! maybe you project something that says "dont try it"

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Monday, 6 October 2014 20:25 (nine years ago) link

5 clits sounds like a recipe for lack of fulfillment

sarahell, Monday, 6 October 2014 20:26 (nine years ago) link

i've been thinking about this too. i think if i were friends with more "asshole" types this would happen more? but those guys generally don't want to be friends with me (nor i with them, honestly)
maybe that's not it
i dont know

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Monday, 6 October 2014 20:58 (nine years ago) link

also lol

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Monday, 6 October 2014 20:58 (nine years ago) link

posted a long-ass screed decrying every close male friend i have ever had and all the fucked up things they have done to me.

― jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Monday, October 6, 2014 10:23 AM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

hero

horseshoe, Monday, 6 October 2014 22:00 (nine years ago) link

that sounds amazing. i should do it. but i don't have any male friends anymore! maybe i can title my screed "this is why we're no longer friends"

horseshoe, Monday, 6 October 2014 22:01 (nine years ago) link

There's a big difference between my male friends (none of whom are shitty; they would not be my friends if they did shitty things on the regular!) and men I know.

Welcome to reality. No spitting, please. (Branwell with an N), Monday, 6 October 2014 22:06 (nine years ago) link

5 clits sounds like a recipe for lack of fulfillment

― sarahell, Monday, October 6, 2014 8:26 PM (Yesterday)

or 5x the odds??

King Clone (Crabbits), Tuesday, 7 October 2014 00:17 (nine years ago) link

otoh it makes me think of this cronenbergian sex toy

King Clone (Crabbits), Tuesday, 7 October 2014 00:21 (nine years ago) link

On Amazon? LOL, oh yeah! I remember discovering you could buy sex toys on Amazon. They really do ridiculous mark ups at porn stores...

*tera, Tuesday, 7 October 2014 04:50 (nine years ago) link

i really do think that every conversation ive had, in real life and on the internet, in the past 10 days has included a man uptalking me or using my first name in a condescending way (actually, Emily), usually both

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 7 October 2014 15:50 (nine years ago) link

Erykah Badu: C /D, S&D

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 7 October 2014 15:54 (nine years ago) link

xp Argh, I got a version of that from a libertarian woman the other day, when I contradicted her on friend's FB. She was bigging up her gun ownership ("you'll need me and my gun when the shit hits the fan") as she told others that the correct response to poor Somalis asking for non-pork items at the local Twin Cities food shelf was 'shove a ham sandwich down their throats and bomb them back to ISIS'.

Fucking oxygen thief....

resting rich face (suzy), Tuesday, 7 October 2014 15:58 (nine years ago) link

i want to start a "shit men say" thread, starting with:

you're not actually surprised by that, are you?

and

you're smart enough to know ___

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 8 October 2014 13:33 (nine years ago) link

lol I say those things. Clear case of laurelsplaining. Which might go a ways toward explaining why I don't notice men doing it to me.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Wednesday, 8 October 2014 13:51 (nine years ago) link

i'm unfortunately acutely aware of condescending language
has made for lots of discomfort throughout the years

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Wednesday, 8 October 2014 13:58 (nine years ago) link

totally!

i was just trying to think, if a woman says these things to me, how do i feel? but i can't remember it ever happening tbh

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 8 October 2014 13:58 (nine years ago) link

it happens all the time!

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Wednesday, 8 October 2014 14:00 (nine years ago) link

to me at least

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Wednesday, 8 October 2014 14:02 (nine years ago) link

so weird. women never talk to me like this! not even on the internet. lol

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 8 October 2014 14:03 (nine years ago) link

i always figured that it's because people are not intimidated by me -- irl i am physically small but even on the internet it's not like i have a big personality.

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Wednesday, 8 October 2014 14:08 (nine years ago) link

im sure that has something to do with it! i am tall and p obnoxious in person and on the net tbh

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 8 October 2014 14:11 (nine years ago) link

Hmm. Condescension is one of those things, like, humour, that lives in this vast grey area. Where punching up is a hugely valid and important tool! (so I'm never going to condemn people like in orbit who use it in that way!) But unfortunately, still the vast majority of uses and users involve punching down.

Welcome to reality. No spitting, please. (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 8 October 2014 15:59 (nine years ago) link

ive been making a conscious effort to call out every single condescending iota of a thing a man does to me for the past week or so and it has been EXHAUSTING

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 8 October 2014 20:54 (nine years ago) link

Well, there's the rub. It is exhausting, it is endless, it wears you down, and I'm not sure how much change it effects. (Have you read Sara Ahmed on The Feminist Killjoy?)

On the other hand, reading this guy makes me giggle-snort:

http://blogdailyherald.com/2014/10/06/interview-guyinyourmfa/

It just nails a certain form of male doucheyness so perfectly.

Jacques Lacan let me rock u; let me rock u, Jacques Lacan (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 8 October 2014 20:57 (nine years ago) link

Brown didn't have much of an MFA program when I went there

sarahell, Wednesday, 8 October 2014 20:58 (nine years ago) link

i love her!

i cant read that link at work but i will peep it later.

i know it may not actually do anything most of the time - but i think it has made quite a few dudes realize "oh wow im not immune," and ive gotten a few apologies. and people are acting afraid of me which is nice. (jk) also im not feeling complicit in my own dehumanization!

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 8 October 2014 21:00 (nine years ago) link

but also i am so tired

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 8 October 2014 21:01 (nine years ago) link

I have no idea what the American MFA scene is like. I've just met that guy over and over again in bars and bedrooms on every side of the Atlantic.

(The twitter is probably better than the interview, but it had more concentrated doucheyness)

x-post to sarahel

Well, I'm glad if it is helping! Even in tiny doses.

Jacques Lacan let me rock u; let me rock u, Jacques Lacan (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 8 October 2014 21:01 (nine years ago) link

hahah no that guy is familiar! I feel like I encounter him in more nuanced, subtle versions, maybe somewhat self-aware of him being _that guy_ but the essence remains.

I just thought it was funny that guy was a student at my alma mater.

sarahell, Wednesday, 8 October 2014 21:03 (nine years ago) link

But Sara Ahmed really is the best! When I'm feeling really terrible, and like I'm crazy for caring about this stuff, I go and read her and I just go "OTM, OTM, OTM!" and it makes me feel not-crazy again.

(I came to her in the most roundabout fashion. I was kinda swapping book recommendations with a friend, and I told him to read a book I loved and he told me to read Zizek and I was like "Zizek sucks" and he was all "No, he's great, trust me" and reminded me that he was right about Interpol, so I thought I'd try Zizek again. And it was RUBBITCH. But there was this whole chapter where he was arguing with one of Ahmed's papers. And Halfway through it, I was like, "fuck this, you're wrong and she's right, I'm giving up on this book, I'm gonna go see what I can find on Ahmed." And found her blog and her twitter and she's amazing and great. And I still think Zizek is unreadable codswollop, but he lead me to this amazing lady.)

Jacques Lacan let me rock u; let me rock u, Jacques Lacan (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 8 October 2014 21:09 (nine years ago) link

i cant fucking stand zizek!!

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 8 October 2014 21:10 (nine years ago) link

Zizek is just so ~beloved~ by a certain kind of dude. And I just do. not. get. it. Plus, he is the worst of the purposeful obfuscators going.

Jacques Lacan let me rock u; let me rock u, Jacques Lacan (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 8 October 2014 21:12 (nine years ago) link

I only saw Zizek's critical commentary on the Children of Men DVD and I felt like he was being overly didactic, oversimplifying things that are more nuanced, and I've ignored him since. Not trying to be self-righteous, more like lazy tbh

sarahell, Wednesday, 8 October 2014 21:13 (nine years ago) link

i feel that - "so ~beloved~ by a certain kind of dude"

way too many of those dudes near me

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 8 October 2014 21:15 (nine years ago) link

That's it, Sarahel. He oversimplifies nuanced concepts, but at the same time he overcomplicates with obfuscating language.

In the immortal words of The Gossip: He's not smart; he just knows big words.

Jacques Lacan let me rock u; let me rock u, Jacques Lacan (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 8 October 2014 21:16 (nine years ago) link

today i found out that i have short?shallow?small? uterus

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081023004830/uncyclopedia/images/7/7c/Themoreyouknow.jpg

just1n3, Friday, 10 October 2014 21:20 (nine years ago) link

ytth is now referring to it as my "cutie utie"

just1n3, Friday, 10 October 2014 21:21 (nine years ago) link

hahaha

I had my first mammogram this week. Also had my fibroids and ovaries checked out by ultrasound. All good. Well I don't know about the mammogram results yet.

Also I get to collect 24 hours of pee on Sunday. I'm to keep the jug in the fridge. Do not drink from the orange jug in my fridge!

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 10 October 2014 22:20 (nine years ago) link

Bah I had to do the 24 hour pee thing twice when I was pregnant. Stupid pee hat.

carl agatha, Saturday, 11 October 2014 01:13 (nine years ago) link

lol @ mfa guy

can i just say that i hate whiskey. i'm sure some of you like it which is totally cool. but i personally think it's pretty gross. the smell of it makes me want to vomit. dudes discussing at length various kinds of whiskey, the origins and ages and the differences between them, the different local bars that serve expensive types of it, the proper way to drink it, the kinds of whiskey they have been drinking at places you've never visited, etc. BORING AS HELL I COULDN'T CARE LESS

same thing for craft beer tbh, i really do like the taste of a nice glass of beer but i just don't think there's anything interesting to say about it

dudes mansplaining to me the correct way to drink alcohol -> i'm humoring you but actually please go away

seriously, THIS GUY (daria-g), Saturday, 11 October 2014 18:44 (nine years ago) link

i like whiskey ok but it's not my favorite however i totally agree re dudes endlessly yammering on about it. they don't even like it that much. it's just the sounding like they know about things that they really like.

flatizza (harbl), Saturday, 11 October 2014 18:59 (nine years ago) link

Aaaawww, bcz I fucken love whisky and I would be the world's biggest whisky bore if I could afford to buy all the single malt scotches from far-flung peaty island bogs!

But I can certainly understand how that kind of specialised knowledge and interest would be boring as fuck to anyone who is not interested in the conspicuous consumption display of acquired knowledge in that way. (Or the performance of ethnicity and culture with which I was raised to revere Our National Drink.)

I do, however, want to protest the gendering of the subject, because the biggest whisky bore (and I say that affectionately, because I would go round their house and the two of us would compare various peaty goodness while their partner went "yuck, yuck, stinky whisky, you smell like a peat bog") I have known was a lady. She wanted to found a woman only whisky tasting club so was after me to join - but I guess that was because of the awfulness of male whisky bores so I think it's maleness that is the problem, not the whisky drinking or arcane knowledge thereof.

But hot damn, now I want whisky, especially now it's getting cold and the nights are drawing in, and I have none because I am poor.

Jacques Lacan let me rock u; let me rock u, Jacques Lacan (Branwell with an N), Saturday, 11 October 2014 19:25 (nine years ago) link

I kind of want to protest the gendering of all of these subjects because so much shitty behavior falls under people being assholes independent of his/her gender

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Saturday, 11 October 2014 20:12 (nine years ago) link

Well, there's general shittiness, and then there's shittiness attached to societal privilege, and that's where I do gender things.

And we could talk a lot around the gendering of alcohol consumption and its acceptability which is a real thing, at least in the society in which I live.

But, y'know, I don't really want to get into that on a Saturday night.

Jacques Lacan let me rock u; let me rock u, Jacques Lacan (Branwell with an N), Saturday, 11 October 2014 20:16 (nine years ago) link

for me it's more like it feels like this thread is a place where no one is going to attack is all. i do know several ladies who are very knowledgeable/picky about whiskey but they are cool with me not liking it! i was reacting to the @guyinyourmfa parody thing & his fixation with it and the shorthand of 'girls who drink whiskey --> special, Not Like Other Girls' which i seem to run into a lot in pop culture

seriously, THIS GUY (daria-g), Saturday, 11 October 2014 20:34 (nine years ago) link

Oh god, I'm so sorry if you thought I was attacking you, Daria, that was in no way my intention!

No, I totally get what you're saying, and I kind of laughed-eyerolled-snorted at guy in yr MFA's obsession with what it signified ... but it felt like it was one of those gendered-landgrab things of trying to male-gender things which are not only Not Gendered, but ... you're right. Adding that icky "Not Like Other Girls" specification to it. When y'know, he's right. I'm "Not Like Other Girls (TM)" but that's because I'm a 200 lb Butch who would scare the shit out of dude, *NOT* because I think Other Girls are icky or bad or contemptuous, like he clearly does.

And there are so many signifiers for "Whisky", like he is very clearly going for this American Writer Hard-Ass Bukowski cliche or whatever, which is a trope in American culture, I know. But it's just specifically annoying because "Whisky" as a signifier is tied up with something quite different (and probably just as fictional and romanticised) but it's still tied up with family and specifically my father and my grandmother. And I feel this outraged "How Dare You" of him or ~dudes he is based on~ making a gendered landgrab for a cultural thing. It's complicated.

Jacques Lacan let me rock u; let me rock u, Jacques Lacan (Branwell with an N), Saturday, 11 October 2014 20:49 (nine years ago) link

no no i didn't think that! i wasn't being sarcastic, no worries

seriously, THIS GUY (daria-g), Saturday, 11 October 2014 20:51 (nine years ago) link

guys I went to a v fun art installation yesterday
it was called 'you who are getting obliterated in the dancing swarm of fireflies' by yayoi kusama

it is completely dark a room with mirrored walls and floors, and hanging led light strings that change color and position

it was like being in a forever field of floating light and nothing!

http://iguessiwriteforfree.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/kusama_fireflies-w500h333.jpg

the artist seems v cool

a lady working aid kusama is bipolar and her art has a lot of repetition

she opened the book to show me an example and turned at first to this print (nsfw)

"why do I open to that page every time?"

but we had this v cool posi conversation about art as an outlet for mental health

then this guy came in and started mansplaining to her and I gave her the rolleye behind his back and she laughed

King Clone (Crabbits), Sunday, 12 October 2014 22:49 (nine years ago) link

Lex and I went to one of her installations a few years ago! (Infinity Rooms, which is very similar to the one you posted.) She is the best! And yes, a very interesting story to her.

i got a lenticular postcard of it but it doesn't really recapture it
love lenticular stuff tho

Walter MIDI (Crabbits), Sunday, 12 October 2014 22:53 (nine years ago) link

my colleague who's getting married soon is a fan of yayoi kusama and I was trying to think of a cool present for her! But haven't yet.

kinder, Sunday, 12 October 2014 22:53 (nine years ago) link

consider getting her a boat covered in cloth penises

Walter MIDI (Crabbits), Sunday, 12 October 2014 22:53 (nine years ago) link

she already has one

kinder, Sunday, 12 October 2014 22:57 (nine years ago) link

Oh, that's a cool direction her work is going. I am most familiar with her earlier work that is similar with the dots and large scale patterns but is more "domestic" looking -- and I was always ambivalent about it because of how stereotypically feminine it was.

sarahell, Sunday, 12 October 2014 23:13 (nine years ago) link

though I think a significant amount of it was also how many imitators she has/had and how that style became a shorthand for communicating certain "ideas" and "identity issues"

sarahell, Sunday, 12 October 2014 23:18 (nine years ago) link

whats the best reaction to someone mansplaining...laughing?

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 14 October 2014 15:14 (nine years ago) link

depends on who it is imo

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 October 2014 15:16 (nine years ago) link

Depends on whether it's someone you have to maintain a friendship / working relationship with afterwards.

If not, fix them with an utterly disbelieving stare, go "for real? no way?" a couple of times in a doubting tone before escalating to something like "you are actually trying to tell me this basic, dumb-ass shit?" in a how ignorant are you? tone of voice.

If it's someone I do want to stay friends with, I usually touch them softly on the arm, use the most gentle, babying "mother knows best" tone of voice, and inform them in an ever so slightly patronising way something along the lines of, you do realise every school child knows this, dear, but in a way that is humourous and laugh afterwards, like inviting them to laugh along with their embarrassment at having said something so foolish.

But basically, create an atmosphere where you make it plain that it's something you think they should be embarrassed about, that they are displaying their ignorance and assumptions.

i think this is what the phrase "no doi" was invented for, lol

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 October 2014 19:05 (nine years ago) link

i have a coworker whose mansplanations have steadily increased to the point where it just seems out of control. like no one can get their work done because he is roaming the halls telling people about ipads, iphones, siri, speakers, jazz, liquor, everythinggggg. i'm dying! but i think because of my reactions to him he doesn't do it directly to me that much. i can still hear him though.

flatizza (harbl), Tuesday, 14 October 2014 22:58 (nine years ago) link

I like to twirl my hair and do big faux-naif eye blink and squeak, 'tee hee hee – reallllly?' and if they keep going, keep up the act, indie feet, hip-rocking, 'haha oh my god you know soooooo much'
eventually they realize they're being condescending
either that or it's annoying enough that they stop just to get me to tsop

Walter MIDI (Crabbits), Wednesday, 15 October 2014 00:00 (nine years ago) link

Ha! That is quite a funny way of handling it.

I kinda wish that faux-naif were a position available to me in order to pull something like that off - but I guess that's the point. To ramp up the faux to the point where it becomes totally obvious. But it seems like the possibility of the expected "oh gee really!" response might almost be real would make that approach more effective.

I mean, that is always the thing, though, with these kinds of discussions. That partly it's blowing off steam at frustrating situations (and it is necessary tension-diffusing to consider awful answers that make us laugh - the "punch him in the dick!" and the "set him on fire! Then mansplain to him how combustion works and how to avoid it, ha ha ha!") but trying to find workable responses.

But I feel this sense of... what is effective is this kind of game-playing. And maybe that game-playing is necessary, because if you say flat out to a dude, "you are mansplaining, please stop" then suddenly you open up the world of butthurt and "how can you insult me like that" and "you're the sexist here because you're using the word mansplaining!" So you have to get them to play this game where, by your actions, you get them to see how condescending their actions are, and never actually use the word, but somehow get them to realise "Wow, I am telling you something you already know, huh" and smile sweetly and go "Yes, yes you are" but in a way that doesn't damage their ego or trigger the mummy-cadenza. And part of my resistance to that is, I don't like game-playing, and I don't like feeling manipulative. And the other half of it is, like, man, this is just more emotional labour and 'managing the sensitive feels of people who are actually adults' is not in my job description.

But, y'know, you have to work out what is effective at stopping this behaviour, and do it, to the best of your abilities.

Jacques Lacan let me rock u; let me rock u, Jacques Lacan (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 15 October 2014 07:35 (nine years ago) link

Kind of in a weird place today with a lot of stuff banging around my head right now.

1) I start a new job tomorrow, and mixed in with the sheer relief of working again after so long, and the usual excitement/nerves/anticipation is actual fear. And not even that normal "Gulp, I hope they like me" fear, but fear left over from the experience of my last job and how Badly Wrong that all went. (I have tried to avoid talking about the circumstances because: partly legal agreement not to talk about it in exchange for gardening leave and a good reference; partly because wanting to put it behind me and not dwell and move on, thanks therapy!) You know something is behind you, but once Really Bad Things have happened, it's hard not to avoid the cringe that comes with the knowledge that crap like that happens, and something being a possibility - but trying very hard not to let that possibility become an expectation. And also the thing of wanting to balance being an authentic person and living an authentic life, with not knowing how "out" I can be. I dunno. I've scrutinised the boss and the team very carefully, let them get a good look at me and who I am / what I'm like, and now I just have to... trust. Walk into it with good intentions and good expectations of others, and hope for the best.

2) this is kinda meta and meta is almost always a bad idea. But. This isn't about any specific thread or poster, it's just a slow feeling. One can get so used to having the same conversations over and over on the internet and it's like bashing my head against a brick wall and the feeling that it changes nothing, except it just wears me down and makes me bitter and jaded and unhappy. But then, for once, you actually see the slow, imperceptible shift in culture become perceptible. That after 5, 10 years of saying "X, and Y, and Z" and being told you're crazy, you're mad, being called names and told to fuck off and how can you say these things, that isn't true. And you open a thread with a sinking feeling, thinking "I'm going to have to say X, and Y, and Z one more time" and then seeing someone else, a man, has actually said X, and Y, and Z and people are discussing that maybe X and Y and Z are true. And there is a strange mix of feelings. Partly relief, of actually, all that bashing one's head against a wall was not in vain, something has got through. But then, partly of annoyance, and "couldn't we have got to this point without the 5, 10 years of me bashing my head against the wall, and all the wear and tear on me, and the name-calling and the damage." And the prickle of annoyance at dudes who were ripping you to pieces 5 years ago are now blithely trotting out your arguments as if they never resisted them. Like, yes, people change, and culture slowly changes, and it's all a process, and things are moving, but slowly, and that movement is good and what you've wanted all along, and it doesn't matter how the ideas got in, but at least the are out there now and in the currency.

But at the same time, jesus, was all the wading through shit really necessary.

I guess I just have to think about things that I changed my mind on, and how I'd want to be judged on where I am now, not what I said in an angry moment 5 years ago. (Broken record: it's hard to give people the benefit of the doubt that you are so rarely afforded.)

Anyway, new job tomorrow, a great sigh of relief from some quarters that I won't be around on the internet 24/7 any more!

Jacques Lacan let me rock u; let me rock u, Jacques Lacan (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 15 October 2014 08:35 (nine years ago) link

Great sigh of relief to your pocketbook and I hope working again re-writes some mental scripts for you w/r/t workplaces!!

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Wednesday, 15 October 2014 13:10 (nine years ago) link

Oookay I just accidentally put this in the foodies & appropriation thread which is funny. But here is the actual post:

The anti-street harassment project I've been so excited about for the past year+ is at

http://brooklynmovementcenter.org/anti-street-harassment/

We finally finished our foundation documents that state who we are and what we believe, in ways that we agree on and think will hold up to criticism and also give us a framework for the projects and causes we choose to take on. (We also have this long complicated decision-making process document bc we do everything p much by consensus but in a year, let's say, if we got bigger and then had some disagreement, we want to have bylaws already to deal w it.)

So I guess...viola!

We are currently comprised of cisgendered women who consistently face street harassment. Our intention is to address the ways in which men harass women, queer, trans, and/or gender non-conforming people in our neighborhood’s public spaces. We understand that street harassment is a type of gendered and sexualized violence and that our work is one part of a larger movement to dismantle patriarchy’s effects on our lives. We seek to work in solidarity with individuals and organizations whose approach to violence works for and not against our values, our mission and our vision for the community we are working to transform.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Wednesday, 15 October 2014 13:19 (nine years ago) link

And the prickle of annoyance at dudes who were ripping you to pieces 5 years ago are now blithely trotting out your arguments as if they never resisted them.

THIS.

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 15 October 2014 19:07 (nine years ago) link

good luck Branwell

kinder, Wednesday, 15 October 2014 21:06 (nine years ago) link

I spoke too soon. :(

Got the contract yesterday afternoon, and the first thing I saw was a massive dealbreaker: they expect a 45 hour work week (9 hour days) as standard.

I mean, FFS, that is the kind of thing that I usually ask at the first stage interview to weed out exploitative no-work-life-balance employers. But I didn't, because I was so convinced at the first stage interview that they were not interested. (That was a total miscommunication, but I'm starting to wonder about that.)

And the headhunter is being pushy about it, and if there's one thing I hate, it's a headhunter that tries to overrule or talk you out of your stated limits. I know that's the headhunter, and not the employer. I mean, it's consent issues, always, isn't it? Whether it's a sex partner trying to ignore your stated boundaries because ~you don't really mean them~ or a corporation trying to override your stated boundaries. The lack of respect for the individual is a red flag that this is something which will bring you grief.

So I dug in my heels and said I'm not going in to work until that clause is changed or removed. Which may mean (this is what happened last time) that they withdraw the offer. Which means I'm not at work today.

Will take a look at your site, IO, it looks really interesting.

Jacques Lacan let me rock u; let me rock u, Jacques Lacan (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 16 October 2014 07:50 (nine years ago) link

You know when all the rational bits of your mind are saying "There is not valid reason not to do this thing" but all of the emotional and intuitive and gut-reaction parts of your mind are just saying "no, no, no, no, no" and you can't quite reconcile them? That's where I am with accepting this job (and I don't have anyone to talk it over with who gets that feeling at all). :-/

Jacques Lacan let me rock u; let me rock u, Jacques Lacan (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 16 October 2014 09:22 (nine years ago) link

...and it's all off. They "withdrew their offer" rather than negotiate a not-45-hours-a-week schedule. Thanks, the whole "opt out of the EU working directive" thing, UK.

Imagine if I were actually trying to raise a family or something, not just protect my health through avoiding overwork.

Jacques Lacan let me rock u; let me rock u, Jacques Lacan (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 16 October 2014 13:01 (nine years ago) link

bummer
on the other hand, i am impressed that you held firm to your requirements!

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Thursday, 16 October 2014 13:04 (nine years ago) link

There's not much to "holding firm to my requirements". There's the understanding that if I tried to work 9 hour days with a 2-hour commute for three months, I'd likely end up in hospital. That is not a choice.

Jacques Lacan let me rock u; let me rock u, Jacques Lacan (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 16 October 2014 13:06 (nine years ago) link

I've gotten little sleep this week, and my waking hours that have not been filled with baby have been filled with work, and I now have pink eye and god knows what else because yes, I live with an adorable little disease vector but also I'm so stressed from work I can't even think straight so in short, Branwell, you are my hero and I'm so glad that you made the right decision for yourself.

carl agatha, Thursday, 16 October 2014 14:10 (nine years ago) link

that's what i meant -- i've accepted jobs/more responsibility than i could handle at work and it has had a marked deleterious effect on my mental and physical health and it took me multiple years to recover -- totally feel u on that! i was proud and impressed that you said "never again".

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Thursday, 16 October 2014 15:05 (nine years ago) link

<3 to you both!

I decided my Halloween costume is going to be Boo Berry; more specifically, cutting the Boo Berry mask off the back of the cereal box and wearing that with some pajamas.

Walter MIDI (Crabbits), Tuesday, 28 October 2014 14:06 (nine years ago) link

I am realllly stoked for the half-assedness.

Walter MIDI (Crabbits), Tuesday, 28 October 2014 14:06 (nine years ago) link

Oh except at work, me and the other teachers on my team are talking about going as the Village People, which was not my idea, believe it or not. I said dibs on construction worker or leather daddy.

Walter MIDI (Crabbits), Tuesday, 28 October 2014 14:07 (nine years ago) link

Wear the boxes and be a cereal killer.

tokyo rosemary, Tuesday, 28 October 2014 14:40 (nine years ago) link

Be Valerie Perrine in Can't Stop the Music!

tokyo rosemary, Tuesday, 28 October 2014 14:41 (nine years ago) link

I bought purple lip tar last week, so I'm wearing that for Halloween.

tokyo rosemary, Tuesday, 28 October 2014 14:42 (nine years ago) link

im dark link

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 28 October 2014 15:20 (nine years ago) link

Aw, have fun in yr Halloween costumes, whether half-assed or... whole-assed? (Which member of the Village People wore the chaps, and how assed is that?)

I've just had such potentially good news that I don't even want to speak about it for fear of it not happening, but keep yr fingers crossed for me.

x'ed fings

Walter MIDI (Crabbits), Tuesday, 28 October 2014 23:31 (nine years ago) link

lol @ whole assed

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 29 October 2014 15:29 (nine years ago) link

i was talking with my mom and she was in a particularly divulgey mood and we were talking about my difficulties wrt relating to ppl in this new way via music and she paused for a second and said, "i know i don't have to tell you this, but don't underestimate an old boys' network."

seemed worth sharing here because i don't know where else to put it. i think she is personifying the patriarchy but i'm not sure she didn't mean an actual (informal) network?

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Wednesday, 29 October 2014 16:04 (nine years ago) link

Like, in what way? Like, in terms of "dudes all stick together and do one another favours" (totally true) or that they have a network of contacts and gigs and the whole doing-shows-together as network thing?

Jacques Lacan let me rock u; let me rock u, Jacques Lacan (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 29 October 2014 16:25 (nine years ago) link

I'm guessing a). My mom is a pretty good observer of behavior and she's been in many old boys situations over the years.

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Wednesday, 29 October 2014 16:32 (nine years ago) link

does she mean ppl are trying to exclude you to preserve an old boys network??

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 29 October 2014 16:34 (nine years ago) link

I have noooooo idea. She just said that and I was like huh that had never occurred to me but ??! So I asked y'all!

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Wednesday, 29 October 2014 16:36 (nine years ago) link

Sometimes it's not even that they are deliberately *trying* to exclude you, but they just don't see you as "part of the scene"? Like, if they were asked for a list of "people I could conceivably play with" they will list all their mates and your name will just not even come up. They just do not see you as one of the gang in that way?

Like, invite you to go and see one of their gigs, sure. Invite you to a jam session or add your band to the bill when the promoter asks who they'd like to play with... your name does not even cross their mind.

That was my experience of music scenes and networks.

Jacques Lacan let me rock u; let me rock u, Jacques Lacan (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 29 October 2014 16:40 (nine years ago) link

oh totally, the "respected ppl in the scene" list is so often gonna be all dudes

i just wasnt sure if thats what the mom was trying to express!

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 29 October 2014 16:54 (nine years ago) link

i am not sure either, but i think this is super otm -- partially because i am not part of their gang but also because it's gonna take a lot more to even register as someone worth talking to
no question mark at the end of "in that way" either -- definitely a .
They just do not see you as one of the gang in that way?

Like, invite you to go and see one of their gigs, sure. Invite you to a jam session or add your band to the bill when the promoter asks who they'd like to play with... your name does not even cross their mind.

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Wednesday, 29 October 2014 17:34 (nine years ago) link

that's upside down but you get the drift

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Wednesday, 29 October 2014 17:35 (nine years ago) link

Sometimes it's not even that they are deliberately *trying* to exclude you, but they just don't see you as "part of the scene"? Like, if they were asked for a list of "people I could conceivably play with" they will list all their mates and your name will just not even come up.

Exactly, I've seen that play out a lot ... but to be fair, I feel like everybody does this to a certain extent, regardless of gender

sarahell, Wednesday, 29 October 2014 19:34 (nine years ago) link

yeah that's just the way of the arts afaict

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Wednesday, 29 October 2014 19:45 (nine years ago) link

though from everything my Chicago ex-pat pals tell me, Chicago's music scene is very boys club

sarahell, Wednesday, 29 October 2014 19:47 (nine years ago) link

There's a difference between "only the names of mates ever come up" (which is fair enough, everyone does) and "only the names of mates that are male ever come up" which is the difference between ordinary acts of omission, and an Old Boys' Club.

I could write you a novel about gender politics in music scenes... oh wait, I already have. ;-)

Jacques Lacan let me rock u; let me rock u, Jacques Lacan (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 30 October 2014 09:13 (nine years ago) link

On another note:

Killjoy exhaustion. It's not so much that you're tired of pointing things out. It's that you're tired of the apparent need to point out things that should be really obvious.

Jacques Lacan let me rock u; let me rock u, Jacques Lacan (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 30 October 2014 09:32 (nine years ago) link

You know when a topic hits you a little too close to home?

That.

Jacques Lacan let me rock u; let me rock u, Jacques Lacan (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 30 October 2014 09:50 (nine years ago) link

chicago's scene is the most sexist/noxious ive ever encountered as an outsider

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Thursday, 30 October 2014 15:34 (nine years ago) link

There are lots of little petri fishes

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Thursday, 30 October 2014 16:31 (nine years ago) link

Omg whoops
I'm on zing
That was dishes and I wasn't done with sentence but I give up for now

Goddammit!!

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Thursday, 30 October 2014 16:32 (nine years ago) link

Sorry, gurls, I have to be serious again for a second.

Job interview today for an organisation I have a huge amount of respect for, working in a field I feel deeply, deeply, personally passionate about because: reasons, because: everything I believe in and hold dear, because: justice, equality and feminism.

BUT. But, but, but. It involves working every single day with deeply distressing, upsetting, and occasionally truly triggering shit. Good news: Do! Something! About! Said! Shit! Make a difference! Change lives! Change society! Put my ideals into action! But deep, deep worries about having the emotional strength and resilience to handle dealing with that stuff, every day, and having the boundary separation to leave it at work (I mean, I would not want to. I would want to live it and do something about it every second of every day. Which is impossible.) I worry about having the emotional distance from the topic to work in it.

I mean, I don't even know if I have a shot at the job, I don't know what they made of me and my interview and my chequered background.

But, but, but.

Jacques Lacan let me rock u; let me rock u, Jacques Lacan (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 30 October 2014 17:43 (nine years ago) link

Damn, I have HAD. IT. with men who feel the need to tell me how I should feel and about what things. I have deeply, truly had it. I don't even have words any more to express how offensive I find that kind of thing, and how not-OK it is.

Jacques Lacan let me rock u; let me rock u, Jacques Lacan (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 30 October 2014 17:48 (nine years ago) link

The next man who feels the need to inform me that I am 'angry' (because I am talking about gender issues or whatever), I am going to smile sweetly, assure him I'm not angry at all, and then calmly and cheerfully, preferably while singing jauntily, cut off his head with a plastic spork.

I think that should get the point across, right?

Jacques Lacan let me rock u; let me rock u, Jacques Lacan (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 30 October 2014 18:41 (nine years ago) link

I am being SO REASONABLE AND CALM in discussions about street harassment on the internet today, I barely even recognize myself, but I fully support the spork project.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Thursday, 30 October 2014 19:30 (nine years ago) link

It's far, far easier for men to say things like "your anger is misplaced" than it is to say something like "your criticism is invalid" (when actually, your criticism is not invalid at all, they just don't like how they might be implicated in it). If you can reframe "criticism" (which is rational, and comes with the option that it may be applicable to them) as "anger" then it is much easier to evade, discredit and generally handwave away.

It's also tied up with another thing I've been thinking about - in terms of intent. The same people who insist things like "But I didn't meeeeaaaaaan to be ~offensive~" (therefore no harm could possibly have been done) and insist that their *intent* is sacroscant in their own statements - are often the very same people who project all kinds of emotions and intents onto the communications of women, e.g. the form of 'you're so angry!' (projecting anger as intention) instead of the (intended) message of 'you have criticism (that I do not like feeling implicated in).'

The intent of the speaker is of huge importance for them when speaking, especially when speaking to a marginalised person; but ~not so much~ when they are listening, especially when listening to a marginalised person. Like, which way is it, guys? Who gets to define 'intent'; speaker or listener? And why is it that the answer is so often 'the person on the up side of the privilege gradient' or, 'me'?

(This is not something I'm excepting myself from. This is something I have noticed in other people, but I am also examining in myself. I just find it interesting, and noteworthy.)

i just finished making my halloween costume!

sarahell, Friday, 31 October 2014 11:57 (nine years ago) link

i got on the elevator the other day after work and this guy looks at me and says "i don't think those shoes go with that suit"

i suppose he was trying to get my attention

i smiled and said "i know! they're so ugly!" and walked away

i was wearing nikes as commuter shoes, with slim trousers and a buttondown shirt and a blazer. it wasn't actually a proper suit.. and i looked quite well put together actually. the first thing he goes for is the put down. wtf!

seriously, THIS GUY (daria-g), Saturday, 1 November 2014 20:19 (nine years ago) link

"thanks! think yr face really goes with wall" [smashes his head into wall]

difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 1 November 2014 20:21 (nine years ago) link

rude

Walter MIDI (Crabbits), Saturday, 1 November 2014 20:32 (nine years ago) link

Also I have just started saying 'rude' when people are rude to me

Walter MIDI (Crabbits), Saturday, 1 November 2014 20:33 (nine years ago) link

totally. i mean, i know how to dress. is it a gendered thing or am i crazy? people not even consciously realizing that they're doing it, but always acting like girls/women should be corrected in some way, told how to act, how to dress, how to do things, how to conform, etc. i'm quite certain he was trying to be friendly but if the first thing that pops into your head to say to me is a put down, nope, sorry. gotta go

i def have relatives who have a habit of trying to show friendliness through these mild teasing put downs and i just don't think it's actually me that's the problem for not appreciating being on the receiving end

seriously, THIS GUY (daria-g), Saturday, 1 November 2014 20:45 (nine years ago) link

I rarely get these types of comments from men, from anyone really. Not that I am "perfect" or that I believe my experience is "the norm" and yours isn't ... I just don't know.

sarahell, Saturday, 1 November 2014 20:49 (nine years ago) link

Wearing trainers with work clothes seems to be something that particularly bothers some men: http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2007/jul/16/fashion.askhadley

kinder, Saturday, 1 November 2014 21:10 (nine years ago) link

lets all just let each other dress how we want to dress & fuck right off

difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 1 November 2014 21:28 (nine years ago) link

Agreed. The person who criticizes my clothing gets a big NO stamp in my mental notebook.

I posted my first Craigslist ad (in the musicians section) today, surely not my last!

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Saturday, 1 November 2014 22:34 (nine years ago) link

Good luck with the musical search, LL! Hope you find someone compatible & good to work with.

On the rest, jeez, wow! I can't even imagine how rude a stranger would have to be to comment on yr clothes like that, daria! Totally out of line! (even relatives who make those 'funny' negging comments, it's so unpleasant. I tell them they're being hurtful & ask them to stop.)

Today the weirdest thing happened - someone paid me a compliment! And it was casual and in passing but at the same time made me realise just how long it had been since the last time anyone did. I successfully resisted the urge to interrogate their motives or accuse them of lying and just said thanks and accepted it as a pleasant gesture from a friend. But compliments are still hard.

Jacques Lacan let me rock u; let me rock u, Jacques Lacan (Branwell with an N), Saturday, 1 November 2014 22:55 (nine years ago) link

You deserve compliments!!

I played some basketball today and it felt pretty good! I was playing with a nice friend who didn't say anything mean and gave a lot of good tips. I got 4 shots in a row once and in my mind I was like 'should I start watching the WNBA?' Anyway, it was some cool low stakes fun! I am way fucked up about sports and fitness and I think I need to find more ways to leave that baggage behind.

I also did standup comedy for the first time at open mic! I had scoped other ppl doing it for a long time. Their sets were mostly about dating, social media, and drving – things people do a lot of. So I wrote a couple sets that were about different things, and I think I really stood out. That and I was one of 2 women, and the other was a woman STILL doing Lorena Bobbit jokes!

Walter MIDI (Crabbits), Saturday, 1 November 2014 23:54 (nine years ago) link

You did stand-up? Holy shit, Crabbits! That's terrifying! And amazing! Like, I have no fear of public speaking, but I can't imagine getting up and telling jokes for 10 minutes. That's got to take a lot of courage. What was it like to do? Did people laugh? Was it awkward? Awesome? I mean, I know you're really funny, but the whole set-up of stand-up is super intimidating to me. (On either side, TBH.)

Yeah my set was about a new blood alcohol testing system employing bats. It took people a while to warm up to it, but I had them lolling hard by the end. It felt good! The emcee just said, "That was strange," after my set. Fine by me.

I feel like some of the stage presence came from my day job of teaching, but not total xfer. People are not choosing to be at school; they are choosing to be at a comedy club. I think the hardest my kids ever laughed was at they way I pronounce the word "calculator" (not intentional NB)...that's just not gonna fly in a different context.

Walter MIDI (Crabbits), Sunday, 2 November 2014 14:57 (nine years ago) link

that's awesome crabbits! i can totally see how the skill set would transfer a little, but not entirely. wtg!!

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Sunday, 2 November 2014 15:02 (nine years ago) link

yeah that is awesome

difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 2 November 2014 15:36 (nine years ago) link

That does sound great!

Like, I often have trouble with kind of stand-up or situational comedy, but surreal humour is what makes me laugh like a drain. So bats-blood-alcohol-detectors sounds right up my street!

Are you gonna do it again, or was it a 'just to prove you could do it' thing?

Aw yeah, I'm gonna do it again! A lot of folks there said they got the most laughs the first time, and they've been "chasing the dragon" since. OTOH I sat in on this open mic a couple weeks before doing it and I would say it is 80% regulars doing the same jokes for the same 80% of people who heard them weeks on end before. Kinda weird! It seems like a good venue to practice ideas, tho.

I think my favorite other person was a guy who had brought a Bible and was making up fake scriptures from it. I told him I liked his set and he said, "I don' know how to talk to girls."

Walter MIDI (Crabbits), Sunday, 2 November 2014 16:29 (nine years ago) link

Ahahaha!

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Sunday, 2 November 2014 17:39 (nine years ago) link

is there sthg wrong with the bookmarking on this thread?

cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Sunday, 2 November 2014 22:58 (nine years ago) link

I think a BOY posted (nothing horrible) and it got removed

kinder, Sunday, 2 November 2014 23:00 (nine years ago) link

I'm so tired of the bullshit condescension yall

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Monday, 3 November 2014 00:00 (nine years ago) link

With you, sister.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Monday, 3 November 2014 00:17 (nine years ago) link

I actually had a serious discussion about this with my co-worker, who is in her late 60s. She has two teenage daughters, and was very adamant that they should stand up for themselves and not let sexism get in the way of doing what they want in life, whereas, for her, it was a much tougher battle. She was brought up with the "you go to college to get a husband" dictum. But she also said that professionally you need to choose your battles and look at the big picture. Don't argue or challenge every single time a man is condescending or assumes you are just a "glorified secretary," which is something I have trouble with.

sarahell, Monday, 3 November 2014 00:28 (nine years ago) link

If I argued or challenged every time a man did this I would literally not even have time to feed myself

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Monday, 3 November 2014 02:43 (nine years ago) link

Roxy, my friend, this is for you, to lookit when the sense of frustration and fatigue gets too much:

http://33.media.tumblr.com/319a182f29672062e57296db33364de3/tumblr_ne1axzdkKy1qeapd2o1_1280.jpg

You might want to be careful where you open it, though. It has quite strong, um... medicinal powers. (Also shirtlessness.)

Hahaha I love u

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Monday, 3 November 2014 18:52 (nine years ago) link

Who are those children?

carl agatha, Monday, 3 November 2014 19:35 (nine years ago) link

Babby Blur!

(who were all older than I was when that pic was taken)

frauhaus (Branwell with an N), Monday, 3 November 2014 19:49 (nine years ago) link

i feel better already

difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 4 November 2014 02:47 (nine years ago) link

(who were all older than I was when that pic was taken)

Ha, me, too, and I was... 19? They seriously look like middle schoolers to me.

carl agatha, Tuesday, 4 November 2014 03:46 (nine years ago) link

i recently rewatched starshaped and i was shocked to find i was no longer attracted to any of them in it because they now look 12 to me in that era, sigh

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 4 November 2014 06:13 (nine years ago) link

I dunno. Am I weird, because I experience this weird trick of memory, that when I look at photos that I remember from when I first saw them my brain, like, autocorrects to make observer-me feel like I am the same age as would be appropriate for my first viewing of that photo? It happens mostly with family photos, obviously. Like, I look at photos of myself, my brother and my cousins taken when we were all about 20, and my brain readjusts and recognises - we are all about the same age there. There's this double memory of me looking at us, going "wow, we looked so young" from the viewpoint of a 40-something looking at those photos. But I don't feel significantly older in a weird or awkward way from those people in that photo, they still feel like me and my cousins. (If anything, recent photos of my cousins as 40-somethings, with children, look weird as hell, because I have not seen them for over a decade and the ageing is suddenly apparent in a way that it is not, with people I have seen every day for ten years.)

I think because I saw Blur - or at least photographic representations of them - so frequently during that same period of my life (I'm not exaggerating that I saw photos of Blur every day between about 1992 and 1996 - I followed the music press exhaustively, I had posters of them on my wall etc etc etc) my brain does the same readjusting trick that it does with photos of my cousins. Observer me is the same age as the person that originally looked at those photos. So they don't look like children. In fact, Blur, *now*, as middle aged men, looking like potatoes, look shockingly wrong.

But it doesn't work with all bands - I was looking at photos of Duran Duran, for example, and I was 12 when I first started listening to them, and OMG, they were such grown ups in a grown up world. But I look at early photos of Duran Duran now, and holy shit, those are kids! How did my 13 year old self see them as adults and not as the adolescents they clearly were?

And I certainly look at bands who are in their early 20s now, and think "ugh, children, do not want". But 12 year old Blur? Bring 'em on.

frauhaus (Branwell with an N), Tuesday, 4 November 2014 09:45 (nine years ago) link

one of the ads on my fb feed for some cloud-based payroll has an image of a woman doing "THE CLUTCH!"

sarahell, Friday, 14 November 2014 22:55 (nine years ago) link

the double clutch?

i give up (La Lechera), Friday, 14 November 2014 23:01 (nine years ago) link

this is the vibe in all areas of my life right now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Uj3zitETs4

so I wanna share some things I like to daydream when I am stressed

I like to daydream that I deliver fanciful flowers and other objects to Elton John in the 1970s
I daydream that I am having fun conversations about stuff I know a lot about or want to know a lot about
I remember the barn my neighbors had where I would climb into the attic and write stories and poems and comics all alone
I think about animals like otters, gibbons, parrots, enjoying one another
I try to remember every detail I can from a book I just read

how about you???

never say goodbye before leaving chat room (Crabbits), Tuesday, 25 November 2014 01:06 (nine years ago) link

oh also I sometimes wickedly daydream about REALLY TELLING SOMEONE

I fantasize about having a lot of money and what I'd spend it on

I have less wholesome daydreams too

never say goodbye before leaving chat room (Crabbits), Tuesday, 25 November 2014 01:11 (nine years ago) link

I have so many daydreams and I'm not sure I want to share them but man oh man do I have them. All the time!

La Lechera, Tuesday, 25 November 2014 01:24 (nine years ago) link

"Day dream" is one of my favorite eerie/tender Strayhorn tunes <3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pSwmU13Reo

never say goodbye before leaving chat room (Crabbits), Tuesday, 25 November 2014 01:27 (nine years ago) link

i used to daydream little fictions all the time, like ALL THE TIME, but when i started taking antidepressants the urge dropped off significantly. these days i miss the deep emotional resonance of a really good daydream, even though i recognize it was starting to become an avoidant behavior.

also <3 you telling people off, Crabbits!

the dreaded Laramie (reddening), Tuesday, 25 November 2014 01:58 (nine years ago) link

i daydream a lot, like habitually I do it when I go to bed because it's sort of like telling myself a bedtime story & I just make up something that I want to do or think about a place I want to visit and start coloring it all in til I fall asleep

i sometimes dream about unexpectedly meeting [insert adored celeb crush] and having a long conversation with them
def daydream about REALLY TELLING SOMEONE
daydream about how I would decorate my Brady-Bunch-esque ranch home

and other things :D

difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 25 November 2014 01:58 (nine years ago) link

man my mom just bought a 1970s style ranch house in North Dakota – it's got gold veined mirrors and red shag carpet on the den walls and everything
a wall with wooden shingles
she's going to redecorate of course >:C

never say goodbye before leaving chat room (Crabbits), Tuesday, 25 November 2014 02:03 (nine years ago) link

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f86/igotabeefpastry/Untitled.jpg

freaking look at this

well, except, don't look at the ceiling

never say goodbye before leaving chat room (Crabbits), Tuesday, 25 November 2014 02:09 (nine years ago) link

Omg
Dying

La Lechera, Tuesday, 25 November 2014 02:24 (nine years ago) link

wowwww

difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 25 November 2014 02:49 (nine years ago) link

my inlaws had a ranch house -- i was so excited to see inside the first time I visit, and I walk into the living room and the full-size stone fireplace that I had always dreamed of was PAINTED WHITE D:

difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 25 November 2014 02:51 (nine years ago) link

i daydream a lot, like habitually I do it when I go to bed because it's sort of like telling myself a bedtime story & I just make up something that I want to do or think about a place I want to visit and start coloring it all in til I fall asleep

!!!!!!! All my life! My parents used to make us go to bed really early because #oldfashionedparenting so I had plenty of time to lie awake, forbidden from reading, to make things up. During times of job or life stress I use a pleasant reverie to self-soothe and feel positive emotions until I can fall asleep. I know things are bad when I don't feel like I even deserve those good feelings & can't find that good place, but that hasn't happened in a long time. In fact since I'm preeeetty (mostly) happily booed up these days, I don't have romantic daydreams anymore, it's almost hard to find things to idealize about!

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Tuesday, 25 November 2014 18:47 (nine years ago) link

Having plenty of money and a roommate who cleans, I guess.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Tuesday, 25 November 2014 18:49 (nine years ago) link

Let me just tell you many of my childhood daydreams were based on Star Wars. I was not Princess Leia in them tho. I made up my own character so there would be an even balance of girls & boys (Luke, Leia, Han, me--obv).

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Tuesday, 25 November 2014 18:50 (nine years ago) link

It was difficult to reconcile my dreams of being able to do magic and fly, courtesy of all my fairy tale & fantasy reading, with the Christian teachings against witchcraft. I was somewhat concerned that I was sinning in my imagination. But Star Wars was fine.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Tuesday, 25 November 2014 19:00 (nine years ago) link

i have long reality-avoiding daydreams all the time and the storylines last for weeks and then are retired. lol. i have done this since i was a kid! how much time have i lost to daydreaming? i kind of treat it as an indulgence now and moderate it accordingly. i'm so glad to read other adults talking about daydreaming!

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 26 November 2014 19:53 (nine years ago) link

It was difficult to reconcile my dreams of being able to do magic and fly, courtesy of all my fairy tale & fantasy reading, with the Christian teachings against witchcraft.

― Orson Wellies (in orbit), Tuesday, November 25, 2014 7:00 PM (Yesterday)

omg when I was a kid I would fantasize about trying to resist satan if he showed up to tempt me
i was v v afraid of getting possessed by the devil but my dad told me it can only happen if you permit him
i would practice saying no to him in my daydreams
the only one where i felt really nervous was the devil offering to let me have a pet dog
i wasn't sure i could resist

never say goodbye before leaving chat room (Crabbits), Thursday, 27 November 2014 00:03 (nine years ago) link

also i remember my friend telling me that she liked to daydream about having both her legs broken and a man touching her and her not being able to resist
i was unable to figure out why it made me uncomfortable but it did

never say goodbye before leaving chat room (Crabbits), Thursday, 27 November 2014 00:04 (nine years ago) link

Rememmmmmber when we were joking about making a set of guidelines for finding a therapist?

http://www.blackgirldangerous.org/2014/12/going-therapy-qtpoc-without-harmed-erased-baffled-therapy-horror-stories-may-heard/

You should not have to teach your therapist about race, gender, class, etc. This is something they should know or recognize they don’t know and make effort to learn. If you find yourself continuously spending time in session explaining basic things about your identity that can be learned about in a book, find someone else. Conversely, if the therapist is spending a lot of time telling you about themselves, particularly when it does not further your own insight, this is a sign of poor boundaries. You are there for you, not them. Seek support elsewhere.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Monday, 1 December 2014 16:15 (nine years ago) link

the only one where i felt really nervous was the devil offering to let me have a pet dog
i wasn't sure i could resist

― never say goodbye before leaving chat room (Crabbits), Thursday, November 27, 2014 12:03 AM (4 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Abbs I seriously love you so much.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Monday, 1 December 2014 16:15 (nine years ago) link

here is my definition of a certain kind of late bloomer, based on personal experience & some observation
- everyone else has had their period & you haven't
- everyone around you has had their period & you haven't
it's a pretty brutal combo

pilate is my cogod (Crabbits), Saturday, 6 December 2014 00:43 (nine years ago) link

ok I said the same thing 2x >:(
first item should be
everyone around you does not believe in santa but you still do even though all the evidence is against it

pilate is my cogod (Crabbits), Saturday, 6 December 2014 00:44 (nine years ago) link

that was me too

difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 6 December 2014 00:49 (nine years ago) link

and me

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Saturday, 6 December 2014 13:37 (nine years ago) link

i didn't get my period until i was 15 and at 13 i saw a medical thing on tv where a girl who hadn't had hers was diagnosed XXY upon the discovery of a testical. i walked around for two years paranoid I was going to grow balls.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Saturday, 6 December 2014 13:38 (nine years ago) link

I got mine at 15 too but I didn't believe in Santa...is that a euphemism I don't understand?

La Lechera, Saturday, 6 December 2014 14:48 (nine years ago) link

It's no picnic getting your period early, either.

Speaking of, I just got my first period since April 2013. I was so hoping for menopause. Rats.

carl agatha, Saturday, 6 December 2014 20:14 (nine years ago) link

:(

difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 6 December 2014 20:17 (nine years ago) link

if i haven't posted here about how I got my period for the first time the day before my 10th birthday, and I was having a bunch of friends from my new school over for a slumber party ... anyway that was very traumatic

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Saturday, 6 December 2014 21:28 (nine years ago) link

holy shit dude

difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 7 December 2014 00:25 (nine years ago) link

I thought I was an early starter but I think I was 11 rising 12?

At least you had a 10th birthday party... unlike some.

Branwell with an N, Sunday, 7 December 2014 06:04 (nine years ago) link

if it makes you feel any better, I had to cancel my 40th because i was sick, also too sick for plan B which was to see one of my bffs play with David J at a book signing

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Sunday, 7 December 2014 10:07 (nine years ago) link

Aw, I'm sorry. That sounds rub!

(But haha I wasn't talking about me, I was talking about my number-one hate-crush, never mind. Failed joke.)

Branwell with an N, Sunday, 7 December 2014 11:12 (nine years ago) link

I got mine at 15 too but I didn't believe in Santa...is that a euphemism I don't understand?

― La Lechera, Saturday, December 6, 2014 2:48 PM (Yesterday)

naw, like you know santa, mythical deliverer of gifts and good-hearted guy, is probably fake because empirical evidence + everyone says so – but you still "in your heart" believe he's real
maybe I just mean "not having outgrown the magical thinking of a child"

pilate is my cogod (Crabbits), Sunday, 7 December 2014 14:45 (nine years ago) link

my parents had to break the news to me that santa was not real when I was 11
I cried and cried
I still didn't really believe them
or maybe I did, but I didn't want to
I was honest about it with my peers, too – another piece of bully fuel just handed to them

pilate is my cogod (Crabbits), Sunday, 7 December 2014 14:47 (nine years ago) link

when i was 11 kids in my class chased me around the playground all recess yelling that he wasn't real & laughing at me

a girl named julie who was pretending she was my friend that day tried to console me this way:
"santa died a long time ago. his brother does it all now"

which still makes me lol

difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 7 December 2014 15:42 (nine years ago) link

Kara Blakeley told me Santa wasn't real on the school bus. She was a mean girl.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Sunday, 7 December 2014 15:49 (nine years ago) link

I don't remember ever believing that Father Christmas was in any sense "real". My parents have told me that quite early, my brother sat me down for an urgent lesson in being disabused of such romantic notions, the most salient lesson of which was: "adults lie!"

I can, however remember a family conference, aged not more than 7, during which my parents begged us not to disillusion our younger cousin, who "still believed." I remember thinking her parents were very cruel to deceive her that way.

(I was not an un-magical child; I still believed in hobbits, piskies, G-Force, and the Closet Monster. I just remember being shocked that adults could lie so systematically to a young child, seemingly for their own amusement.

Branwell with an N, Sunday, 7 December 2014 16:22 (nine years ago) link

That said, at that age, my parents still believed in Marx, so YMMV.

Branwell with an N, Sunday, 7 December 2014 16:24 (nine years ago) link

I learned about the tooth fairy first when I began to suspect something was amiss and asked my mom if tooth fairy was my old babysitter that my dad used to screw and my mom was like *beat of angry silence* "No. It's me. I'm the tooth fairy."

I clung to Santa another year or so but it was pretty halfhearted.

Anyway not because of that, which was probably awful for my mom at the time but cracks me up now, but we're not going to do Santa with Ivy. Neither of us are big Christmas celebrants to begin with so we're keeping the whole thing low key in the home.

carl agatha, Sunday, 7 December 2014 16:24 (nine years ago) link

Santa comes to her daycare and you bet your jolly red butt I'm getting a picture of her on his lap, but we'll just tell her he's a made up Christmas character that people like to cosplay as for the holidays.

carl agatha, Sunday, 7 December 2014 16:26 (nine years ago) link

My boyfriend works in a group home for developmentally delayed adults and one of the guys there, in his 50s, still believes in Santa. He also believes that if anyone in the house is awake at midnight on Christmas, Santa won't visit.

pilate is my cogod (Crabbits), Sunday, 7 December 2014 16:38 (nine years ago) link

Tooth fairy --- Easter bunny -- for me were nbd to find out they weren't real
santa is really a lot like god though, an omniscient, jolly, caring, guy who delivers covetable goods!
more relatable than god, probably, as you can make cartoons about him and it isn't blasphemous iconography

pilate is my cogod (Crabbits), Sunday, 7 December 2014 16:41 (nine years ago) link

having to accept him not being real at the time it kinda felt like idk, the difference between technicolor Oz and sepia-toned Kansas

like

ok now christmas is just THIS
i can't have THAT anymore?
why?

luckily I had younger siblings so at least at home I got to play along with them for another few years, and that made it a bit easier to swallow. It wasn't like grouchy teenagers who just get money in the morning & bolt as soon as christmas dinner is done with (which is how a lot of my friends were at the time and I didn't want that)

difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 7 December 2014 18:04 (nine years ago) link

idk

that makes me sound like a horribly deluded child but it was just a nicer feeling that a jolly magic fellow delivered your presents rather than mum hiding them in the crawlspace and staying up til 4am putting dollhouses together and whatnot

now i kind of feel like the opposite is kind of touching in its own weird way

difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 7 December 2014 18:06 (nine years ago) link

I don't remember when or how I found out Santa wasn't real, and it wasn't a huge deal for me. What was a huge deal was when mum and dad said they wouldn't be doing a Christmas stocking any more, for either me or my younger brother. I was a proper teenager, I think! - around 15 - but it took all the fun out of Christmas for me, and I remember being really sorry for my brother who was around 11. The 'big presents' were nice and all, but the stocking was full of tiny, inexpensive, carefully chosen, unpredictable wrapped gifts (in a chopped up pair of mum's tights left on the foot of the bed in the small hours - I can still remember how the presents felt through the tights!) That was the most exciting thing ever, even when I knew it was mum and dad.

ljubljana, Sunday, 7 December 2014 18:14 (nine years ago) link

Christmas stocking is the best part! Our compromise with our Christmas-enthusiast parents is that Ivy will have a Christmas stocking and they can buy her whatever will fit in it.

carl agatha, Sunday, 7 December 2014 21:12 (nine years ago) link

It's hardly a compromise for me because yay Christmas stocking!

carl agatha, Sunday, 7 December 2014 21:13 (nine years ago) link

My mom made my stocking for my first Christmas and I still have it! I just found it tonight, actually.

http://i57.tinypic.com/vder07.jpg

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Sunday, 7 December 2014 22:12 (nine years ago) link

My mom told me the Easter Bunny wasn't real when I was maybe 9 and I immediately asked about Santa to which she replied, "I'm not ready to talk about Santa yet" so I basically knew. I also kind of suspected before then because we always opened our presents on Christmas Eve like it's customary to do in Germany. We had Christmas dinner every year with my parents' friends and then went to mass. The dads would stay behind a little and put out all the presents so they'd be there when we got home from church. At some point I started wondering why I was the only kid who Santa came to a day early.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Sunday, 7 December 2014 22:14 (nine years ago) link

I know I've posted in this thread before about my mom and her practical gift-giving -- but let me tell you, Santa probably would've had a more magical, heart-warming aura, if "he and Mrs. Claus" didn't give me things like mechanical pencil lead, a toothbrush, file folders, a mini-stapler, and white cotton underwear. There's only a certain amount of suspension of disbelief possible, even at a young age, when your mom will exclaim, "Wow, Santa is amazing! He somehow knew that I was out of scouring pads!"

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Monday, 8 December 2014 00:34 (nine years ago) link

loool wow

difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 8 December 2014 01:37 (nine years ago) link

haha that's incredible

pilate is my cogod (Crabbits), Monday, 8 December 2014 02:16 (nine years ago) link

Ha!
I still get a stocking if I stay at my parents' on xmas eve, which I have most of my adult life.

kinder, Monday, 8 December 2014 10:26 (nine years ago) link

this is not on topic but i just wanted to report that i had three girlfriend hangouts in one week and they were all extremely enjoyable!! in hangout 1 we drank tea and gossiped, in hangout 2 we ate dinner, listened to records, and did our nails and in hangout 3 we went to a giant grocery store, made foods for our friends while listening to records, and then delivered the foods. it was really pleasant and satisfying to have multiple conversations with irl people who i feel totally comfortable around and there was no typing required.

thank you, friends

vigetable (La Lechera), Monday, 8 December 2014 15:35 (nine years ago) link

That all sounds so nice. I have a new girlfriend at work and she's awesome. :)

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Monday, 8 December 2014 15:40 (nine years ago) link

it's just really nice to relax and lol and talk about girl stuff

vigetable (La Lechera), Monday, 8 December 2014 15:53 (nine years ago) link

:D

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Monday, 8 December 2014 16:07 (nine years ago) link

goddamn yogurt
i want to hurl curdled yogurt at someone i just don't know who yet

http://i.imgur.com/1xsq5Ew.jpg

vigetable (La Lechera), Saturday, 13 December 2014 17:12 (nine years ago) link

SO mad that fb is showing me this shit. Into that dress though.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Saturday, 13 December 2014 17:27 (nine years ago) link

ads suck in general, but i still blame the yogurt industry
like i don't know and don't care what jennifer hudson did that was so shocking but i doubt it had anything to do with yogurt

ugh

anyway
other than this i feel pretty great!

vigetable (La Lechera), Saturday, 13 December 2014 17:34 (nine years ago) link

Oh, feelings, why are you complicated?

For the first time in... well, forever, really. Someone I have ~feelings~ for has confessed that the feelings, complicated and impossible though they might be, are, well, mutual.

There are so many Big Important Reasons we shouldn't pursue this. (The usual: age, gender, location.)

I feel kinda sick, and nervous, and terrified, and I have that 'OMG I'm going to throw up' feeling that is generally a pretty good indication that I'm falling in love (or something like it). But also giddy and excited and ????

Um, help?

Branwell with an N, Saturday, 27 December 2014 09:10 (nine years ago) link

! it sounds like you are doing well on your own!

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 December 2014 07:39 (nine years ago) link

My advice: throw Big Important Reasons to the wind! And allow yourself to enjoy yourself.

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 December 2014 07:40 (nine years ago) link

also relevant to the interests of some in this thread ie me and erica

http://31.media.tumblr.com/7d97218b07730fbf4314f60f544bb645/tumblr_mibhbqKoZc1qb2yp3o1_r1_500.gif

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Sunday, 28 December 2014 07:41 (nine years ago) link

LOL!

In the "pop stars vs real boys" I think pop stars always win.

(In this case, I fear it's two deeply insecure people, and I'm trying to say to the other person "you're allowed to want this; you can have this if you really want this" as much as I'm trying to convince myself. But I'm quite convinced that they don't really want this as much as I do; and know almost certainly they think that I feel the same way.)

((I'm just waiting for the moment where they pull the rug out from under me and go "OMG, no, I was just kidding, I didn't mean any of that!"))

OK, I'll shut up now. Life is great otherwise, and I'm looking for things to beat myself up over.

Branwell with an N, Sunday, 28 December 2014 08:31 (nine years ago) link

branwell this may be a weird q but is there some way i could contact you privately (i feel like theres no way to ask this that doesnt sounds GRAVELY SERIOUS which this is def not)

my email btw is emilysue @ gmail

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 19:25 (nine years ago) link

Sorry, work is so busy I check ILX like once a week these days. Just sent you an email.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 9 January 2015 05:44 (nine years ago) link

responded!

hey, some of you responded to my FB thing about writing irl letters. im getting rolling on that.

if anyone else wants to be penpals, email me. i have so much stationery. so many stamps.

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Friday, 9 January 2015 17:11 (nine years ago) link

I was recently back at my parents' house and found the boxes where I kept all my old letters and I found a few from someone I barely remember. Found a bunch I never sent too -- that was embarrassing. I'm hungry for more irl human interaction tbrr.

vigetable (La Lechera), Friday, 9 January 2015 17:47 (nine years ago) link

OH HAI I have too many fountain pens/ink/stationery and need to put them to use.

will e-mail

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 9 January 2015 19:21 (nine years ago) link

I have lots of stationery, postcards, stickers, and rubber stamps. I want pen pals!

tokyo rosemary, Friday, 9 January 2015 21:29 (nine years ago) link

^^^does your ilx webmail work? Mine does not.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 9 January 2015 21:35 (nine years ago) link

I love all of you! But I am not a good pen pal so I'll just offer emotional support and let you get on with it.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 9 January 2015 21:35 (nine years ago) link

no way IO you should send me your address so I can send you random postcard! No response expected!

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 9 January 2015 21:36 (nine years ago) link

I love all of you! But I am not a good pen pal so I'll just offer emotional support and let you get on with it.

― Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, January 9, 2015 9:35 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^^

I'm not even a good email correspondent.

carl agatha, Friday, 9 January 2015 21:37 (nine years ago) link

you to, carl! But I need addresses but not via ilx webmail why because mine goes to some long-dead e-mail addy. FB or other means of contact? Just get me your addy and I'm on it.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 9 January 2015 21:38 (nine years ago) link

we all know mutual ppls somehow so should be workable

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 9 January 2015 21:39 (nine years ago) link

My ilx mail should still work.

tokyo rosemary, Friday, 9 January 2015 21:40 (nine years ago) link

mine should work too

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Friday, 9 January 2015 21:42 (nine years ago) link

I can be reached at carl agatha party at gmail.

carl agatha, Friday, 9 January 2015 21:45 (nine years ago) link

carl I sent 2 u

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 9 January 2015 21:58 (nine years ago) link

you 2, sarahell

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 9 January 2015 22:00 (nine years ago) link

Awwwww <3

carl agatha, Friday, 9 January 2015 22:01 (nine years ago) link

Tokyo as well! I don't want to overpromise, but it would be fun to send you each at least one lil thing because I've been meaning to a snail-mail effort for a while now!

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 9 January 2015 22:02 (nine years ago) link

i like mail and i like all of you a lot
sorry if that sounded unwelcoming upthread
my penpalship started as soon as i could write and carried on strong through my entire life -- i'm still a diligent email correspondent
maybe this is why i am tired -- the majority of my friendship life has been carried out in the written word
that's why i am tired of typing and writing and just want to talk

vigetable (La Lechera), Friday, 9 January 2015 22:06 (nine years ago) link

it's kind of sad really

vigetable (La Lechera), Friday, 9 January 2015 22:10 (nine years ago) link

xp quincie - sent you fb friend req so I can message you

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Friday, 9 January 2015 22:12 (nine years ago) link

I got your email quincie but send me your email address!

tokyo rosemary, Friday, 9 January 2015 22:28 (nine years ago) link

yknow what? not that anyone asked but i know that part of it is me. i am really stubbornly unwilling to let people get to know me, and i always have been.
these days, if you don't let people know who you are in a very public fashion, you are at a rather severe disadvantage in terms of friend-making. that has always been the case, but the stage feels so big now and i am so wary. i'm working on it and getting better, but it's not natural or easy for me.

anyway, thank you to anyone who has corresponded with me -- i'm not saying the correspondence was a chore, just that it feels so inadequate for my current level of need. i'm working on it.

vigetable (La Lechera), Friday, 9 January 2015 23:08 (nine years ago) link

No pressure girl but you're great and you should tell more people imo.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 9 January 2015 23:09 (nine years ago) link

Just say, "I'm great! Let's be friends."

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 9 January 2015 23:09 (nine years ago) link

i wish it were that easy

vigetable (La Lechera), Friday, 9 January 2015 23:11 (nine years ago) link

but thank you!

vigetable (La Lechera), Friday, 9 January 2015 23:11 (nine years ago) link

You're great! Let's eat pho.

carl agatha, Saturday, 10 January 2015 00:05 (nine years ago) link

LL for YEARS I have admired and benefitted from your presence in my life "from a distance"; from a distance has been great and however else it manifests I am grateful for! /emo

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Saturday, 10 January 2015 00:17 (nine years ago) link

^^^ this

Ll whenever i think of you i automatically hear luke perry saying "but buffy you're not like other girls" and i mean that in the raddest way possible

you inspire me constantly to mine my own individuality <3

from yr hands across the water 'friend'

difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 10 January 2015 06:35 (nine years ago) link

thank you friends. it's generous of you to share that with me. honestly i pretty much feel fine about myself in isolation; it's the sharing of myself with others that i find difficult.
only child hates sharing, news at 11 lol :)

vigetable (La Lechera), Saturday, 10 January 2015 17:21 (nine years ago) link

in other news, yesterday there was a full-faculty takedown of a machista comment one of my coworkers made and it was made clear by me and others that "all women like to ______" jokes are inappropriate in the classroom (and elsewhere, but we were talking about the classroom specifically)
felt good

vigetable (La Lechera), Saturday, 10 January 2015 17:27 (nine years ago) link

awesome

difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 10 January 2015 19:15 (nine years ago) link

omg that is for real?

i would love to be able to hear the meeting that released this advertisement into the world

groundless round (La Lechera), Monday, 19 January 2015 19:27 (nine years ago) link

Hi girls. Next time when I say "this scares me and seems like a really bad idea" don't encourage me; tell me to listen to that little voice, it's called my intuition and it's telling me things I need to hear.

Branwell with an N, Saturday, 24 January 2015 08:02 (nine years ago) link

do you feel like at least it takes less time to realize that little voice is right than when you were younger?

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Saturday, 24 January 2015 08:13 (nine years ago) link

I don't know. I think I have got better at not "LOGIC!"-ing myself out of listening to it.

I have definitely got better at communicating "this isn't working for me". And realising that "I feel like this is not working for me" is a complete reason in itself, and does not need to be justified or over-explained or spiralled out into a giant emotion-ball of ~reasons~.

I would like to thank Captain Awkward and The Gift Of Fear, both of which were things that the people on this thread encouraged me to read, so thank you for that, beautiful thread!

Branwell with an N, Saturday, 24 January 2015 08:20 (nine years ago) link

I have definitely got better at communicating "this isn't working for me". And realising that "I feel like this is not working for me" is a complete reason in itself, and does not need to be justified or over-explained or spiralled out into a giant emotion-ball of ~reasons~.

Yes!!!! High five!

about a dozen duck supporters (carl agatha), Saturday, 24 January 2015 14:09 (nine years ago) link

imo the most effective phrase is good old Bartleby's: "I would prefer not to." It confounds people & ends the conversation, just like in the story.

pilate is my cogod (Crabbits), Sunday, 25 January 2015 18:07 (nine years ago) link

I love everything I've read from Captain Awkward and if I remembered to read it when not linked to from ILX and actually think about and work on the advice for all the many correspondents who remind me of myself, even or especially the tough love sections, I might be a better person.

(Not familiar with the Gift of Fear, shall check it out after I have descended down the Captain Awkward spiral for a little while.)

Sorry things did not work out for you BB but hooray for recognising it promptly and acting on that recognition.

club mate martyr (a passing spacecadet), Sunday, 25 January 2015 19:03 (nine years ago) link

It struck me today, with such force, while looking at the cover of the Guardian Magazine (I know, I know, it serves me right for reading that trash) and yet another pronouncement about what "Feminism" does or doesn't have to mean...

"Feminism" itself has become just one more impossible-to-attain ideal against which women are measured, found wanting, and castigated for failing to measure up to.

(I'm sure there's probably a Roxanne Gay essay that could have taught me this lesson far more succinctly.)

Branwell with an N, Saturday, 31 January 2015 10:38 (nine years ago) link

god, that hits hard :(

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Saturday, 31 January 2015 20:09 (nine years ago) link

laksdjl;kajdkdkdkddddd Ivy is "day weaned" which means she only nurses in the morning and at night, and I have stopped pumping, and that little sneak peak of a period I had before was NOTHING and it is now back and Screaming for Vengeance and it is awful.

Is "I'm so done with this shit" enough of a reason to get a hysterectomy? Is 42 too old to go on that birth control where you don't get your period?

about a dozen duck supporters (carl agatha), Friday, 13 February 2015 15:52 (nine years ago) link

oh man ca I am sorry you are having period hell. I would totally donate my uterus like one would donate a kidney if that was a thing. But no one would want my uterus because it is stuffed with fibroids, which means periods sans BCP are sucky in the bleeding department. Like, soak-through-supers-overnight heavy. But only for about 24 hours and then it is not so bad, and the estrogen-drop migraines I had on the pill seem to have gone away, thankfully. But srsly if you can find a surgeon who would do 2-for-1 hysterectomies, sign me up.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 13 February 2015 17:08 (nine years ago) link

If I had fibroids (or any medical reason) I'd be on the table for a hysterectomy before you could say "diva cup."

about a dozen duck supporters (carl agatha), Friday, 13 February 2015 17:16 (nine years ago) link

is the mirena IUD an option for you? it's def thinned out my period, and for a lot of women it eventually stops altogether or becomes just spotting.

just1n3, Friday, 13 February 2015 17:32 (nine years ago) link

off topic, but i really need to rage about something somewhere relatively safe: david pajo's suicide note to his ex wife that he blasted out on his blog, twitter and instagram is making me sick to my stomach with anger, ever since i read it last night. it's one of the most emotionally abusive, manipulative, calculating things i've ever read. idk what happened in their relationship, but no one deserves that kind of abuse (and he even admits to hitting her, in his letter).

just1n3, Friday, 13 February 2015 17:37 (nine years ago) link

Oh yeah, Mirena! I had one before and it stopped my period, which I didn't like (because I was young and stupid), but maybe that's the way to go now.

That's a great idea. I need to see the gyn anyway and now I have actual motivation to make an appointment.

about a dozen duck supporters (carl agatha), Friday, 13 February 2015 17:41 (nine years ago) link

Oof I just read (skimmed, because that's the best I could do) that note and just1n3 OTmfM.

David Pajo, men's rights hero. jesus.

about a dozen duck supporters (carl agatha), Friday, 13 February 2015 17:53 (nine years ago) link

I don't know that guy from adam but read the letter and dude is clearly a trainwreck and I'm sorry his wife and kids are sucked into said trainwreck.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 13 February 2015 17:59 (nine years ago) link

i love(d) pajo and previously apologized for even reading the note, and i do feel bad that i did. but once you read it how can those things go unsaid? esp as someone who is a survivor of that kind of abuse, including suicidal threats and actions aimed at fucking up your lover's mind, i felt really compelled to comment on that, and am def being lambasted for it. lot of conflicting feelings.

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Friday, 13 February 2015 18:04 (nine years ago) link

same ^^ only i haven't commented
it happened to me twice

groundless round (La Lechera), Friday, 13 February 2015 18:06 (nine years ago) link

I would not feel bad about reading the note that he published on his public blog, other than to feel bad because I felt like I was caught up in his manipulations as well.

I like(d) pajo but I have so little patience for that kind of shit, even as I'm also incredibly sympathetic to people who are suicidal. Like I'm not one of those people who get angry at how "selfish" suicidal people are or whatever. I just get sad that the person was living in such pain. But there's a point where you're intentional inflicting that pain on people you love and that I have no sympathy for.

so yeah, conflicted, only less so.

about a dozen duck supporters (carl agatha), Friday, 13 February 2015 18:08 (nine years ago) link

I'm sorry you're catching shit for your opinions, rox. They are totally valid, and your experience is totally valid.

about a dozen duck supporters (carl agatha), Friday, 13 February 2015 18:09 (nine years ago) link

Whoah. I didn't know there was a thing that was going on (I hid ILM from sna). Just checked it out and I have no sympathy particles in my sympathy waist pouch at all.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 13 February 2015 18:18 (nine years ago) link

There are times I wish it was possible to do, like, a mediated review of someone's terribleness and then give their victims permission to just stop caring about them. Go with God, my child--you are absolved. Guilt-free. Go be happy.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 13 February 2015 18:20 (nine years ago) link

thanks guys, i'm glad i vented here.

just1n3, Friday, 13 February 2015 18:27 (nine years ago) link

well I do feel that fucked up ppl are fucked up and that fucked up is not a great place to be for anyone no matter what. dude is fucked up and I do feel badly for him because his is not a good place to be.

not trying to flame on chixors thread, just my take.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 13 February 2015 18:29 (nine years ago) link

I feel that way until the fucked up person starts intentionally hurting other people. Like, having a mental illness may be a reason for that kind of behavior, but it's not an excuse, IMO.

I have no sympathy particles in my sympathy waist pouch at all.

Totally imagining in orbit as a little RPG character with her bag of holding and a status bar underneath her showing insufficient sympathy particals.

about a dozen duck supporters (carl agatha), Friday, 13 February 2015 18:39 (nine years ago) link

I'm so glad carl and this thread understand me. :DDDDD It's good to be known.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 13 February 2015 18:44 (nine years ago) link

the part that made me upset was when he said that what's best for the kids should trump all else in her life.

I've been where he's been (minus the kids) in terms of betrayal and despondency. I might have slapped my ex once. If not him, then another guy who did a similar thing to me when I was in college. My reading of the letter is that he only hit her once after the affair was discovered, but still, is that even ok? Is it worth speculating on the amount of force used and at which point is it "abusive"? It's like the debate about whether it's okay to spank your kids. It's not worth having again.

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Friday, 13 February 2015 18:46 (nine years ago) link

TOTALLY AGREE dude pulled 150% awfulness.

Kind of just feeling a Hindenburg "OH THE HUMANITY" think except of course especially awful for wife and kids b/c women/children/nonrockstar status vs ohcooldudewithaudience power.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 13 February 2015 18:53 (nine years ago) link

I think before even addressing the domestic violence pov, at the very least your suicide note shouldn't be your revenge tool. Once you're there (and full speed ahead too), that's the end of my interest in the matter. I've tried to keep friends alive; I might have even succeeded once or twice. I've also straight walked away from people with the knowledge that I could 100% turn off my sense of responsibility for their welfare because of their actions.

One of the nicest things about not being young anymore is that my boundaries are a lot better.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 13 February 2015 18:59 (nine years ago) link

at the very least your suicide note shouldn't be your revenge tool.

it's not that great a tool though, presumably you are dead afterwards, and the other person gets to live and get over you.

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Friday, 13 February 2015 19:03 (nine years ago) link

BOY YEAH isn't that true??? It's fantastic. I'm also a lot better at being assertive as necessary.

io, have you watched the Stars series The White Queen? About Elizabeth Woodville, Anne Neville, and Margaret Beaufort and the War of the Roses? It's on Amazon Prime streaming if you have access to that. But it's AMAZING and full of awesome models for exerting a certain kind of female authority, even in the face of powerlessness, that is really inspiring. Also amazing costumes. Also the dude who plays King Richard III (lol spoiler?) is so cute omg.

xp

about a dozen duck supporters (carl agatha), Friday, 13 February 2015 19:04 (nine years ago) link

yeah the first time this happened to me i was 17 and i learned a lot
the second time was very different and not analogous outside of the threat of suicide
all of this was a very long time ago too

groundless round (La Lechera), Friday, 13 February 2015 19:04 (nine years ago) link

I was in my teens the first time I had a dude threaten suicide to try to get me to do something (not dump him I think) and before he said that, I was feeling really bad about it, like awful, and then he said that and it was like the door to my feelings area slammed shut and I was like, "Get the fuck out of my face forever."

about a dozen duck supporters (carl agatha), Friday, 13 February 2015 19:07 (nine years ago) link

i should just bow out of this discussion, as I feel like the odd one out in terms of my opinions and experiences.

i identify more with a suicidal person and victim of infidelity, and my experience of relationship abuse was 20 years ago and relatively minor

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Friday, 13 February 2015 19:09 (nine years ago) link

i should just bow out of this discussion, as I feel like the odd one out in terms of my opinions and experiences.

i identify more with a suicidal person and victim of infidelity, and my experience of relationship abuse was 20 years ago and relatively minor

― Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Friday, February 13, 2015 7:09 PM (11 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Well in my case this dude was very very much using a suicide threat as a tool of manipulation. He was no more suicidal than I was. and it is a common tool of abusive, manipulative people.

Pajo is more complex because that is a freaking manipulative letter but he was clearly also suicidal. But given the way things go for women on the internet these days, posting a public accusation like that is basically like calling down hellfire on his ex, and that's pretty inexcusable.

about a dozen duck supporters (carl agatha), Friday, 13 February 2015 19:11 (nine years ago) link

oh yeah there are lots of people threatening her and calling her slut on the comments of his instagram ad for the note

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Friday, 13 February 2015 19:15 (nine years ago) link

god that's horrible
i think the thing about it that made me the most sad (aside from the obvious) was his warped notion of love

groundless round (La Lechera), Friday, 13 February 2015 19:16 (nine years ago) link

Yeah and if she wasn't expecting that and hasn't taken steps to protect her identity, and especially if the MRA monsters get wind of this, they'll post her physical address and do god knows what else.

Here's a pretty upsetting rundown of the kinds of things they do, with a heaping helping of trigger warnings - http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2015/01/27/7-tactics-of-highly-effective-harassers-how-a-voice-for-mens-internet-hate-machine-works/

about a dozen duck supporters (carl agatha), Friday, 13 February 2015 19:20 (nine years ago) link

My reading of the letter is that he only hit her once

no care evar

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Friday, 13 February 2015 19:21 (nine years ago) link

xxxxp Oh dear he is rather adorably broody.

I only have eyes for Cillian Murphy at this moment in time though. The dirt, the blood, the wrinkles and smile lines he's developing--every. thing.

http://d1oi7t5trwfj5d.cloudfront.net/b4/1f/88f322d640acbc25ac3a86df701e/cillian-murphy-peaky-blinders.jpg

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 13 February 2015 19:22 (nine years ago) link

oh yeah there are lots of people threatening her and calling her slut on the comments of his instagram ad for the note

― jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Friday, February 13, 2015 11:15 AM (4 minutes ago)

oh lord, i hadn't thought about those implications -- what carl said upthread about the use of the internet. sorry for being so dense.

i still don't understand why people make things like this public.

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Friday, 13 February 2015 19:23 (nine years ago) link

Well sometimes they do it to "win" an emotional manipulation contest with someone they want to hurt very, very much, using such tools as angry stalker fanboys.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 13 February 2015 19:24 (nine years ago) link

oh i loved cillian murphy when 28 days later came out. there was a silly 1p3 thread about this and i got hate mail from a random googler

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Friday, 13 February 2015 19:24 (nine years ago) link

I quit my job and married Cillian Murphy

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Friday, 13 February 2015 19:25 (nine years ago) link

Well sometimes they do it to "win" an emotional manipulation contest with someone they want to hurt very, very much, using such tools as angry stalker fanboys.

― Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, February 13, 2015 11:24 AM (1 minute ago)

no doubt. I just don't have that instinct/impulse -- the initial exposure would just be too humiliating for me -- i understand manipulation, and revenge, but i just find public humiliation utterly repellent

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Friday, 13 February 2015 19:29 (nine years ago) link

Hahahahahahahahahaha that is amazing

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 13 February 2015 19:29 (nine years ago) link

Sorry, sarahell! That wasn't meant to be didactic up there, I was more like being fatalistic about how horrible the internet and its angry, insecure male minions can be to women under these conditions.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 13 February 2015 19:31 (nine years ago) link

cillian murphy is all yours ladies

groundless round (La Lechera), Friday, 13 February 2015 19:34 (nine years ago) link

here's a q - is there a deprogramming course for misogyny?

groundless round (La Lechera), Friday, 13 February 2015 19:41 (nine years ago) link

for internalized misogyny? or like to deprogram men

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Friday, 13 February 2015 19:50 (nine years ago) link

the former, not related to just men

groundless round (La Lechera), Friday, 13 February 2015 19:52 (nine years ago) link

not limited to men, i mean

groundless round (La Lechera), Friday, 13 February 2015 19:53 (nine years ago) link

or like a Patriarchal Damage Repair Course?

groundless round (La Lechera), Friday, 13 February 2015 19:55 (nine years ago) link

Take two bell hooks and call me in the morning.

about a dozen duck supporters (carl agatha), Friday, 13 February 2015 19:57 (nine years ago) link

I was thinking more of a guided thing, with space for the student to respond and reflect in a controlled atmosphere, with help. A lot of people don't deprogram themselves. I recently saw a thing advertised called a Self-Love Course that promised to help women (I think it was for women, it was in a link someone posted from everydayfeminist dot com or something like that) silence their toxic inner voices and I was wondering if a similar thing existed for people who need to shed emotional scar tissue caused by prolonged/internalized belief in harmful patriarchal values.

groundless round (La Lechera), Friday, 13 February 2015 20:02 (nine years ago) link

if you find something like that, let me know

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Friday, 13 February 2015 20:03 (nine years ago) link

I...don't know. I don't know if mainstream feminism has been really great in recent erm decades? at finding that...motivation of love? self-love and acceptance through study and contemplation or however you'd describe that.

Consciousness raising?

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 13 February 2015 20:11 (nine years ago) link

I usually call it "Listening to bell hooks interview Chimananda Ngozi Adichie while reading radical body acceptance blogs" but that's just what works for me.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 13 February 2015 20:13 (nine years ago) link

this is it
http://everydayfeminism.com/everyday-self-love/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=ad&utm_content=ES-Course&utm_campaign=Home-ES-Ad

(lol i thought it was about a different kind of self-love at first but after reading the bullet points, it's more what you describe)

i'm talking about something like this course but not for self-esteem or body stuff or negative self-talk as much as the internalized beliefs we associate with patriarchal values. and with help or guidance because not everyone is an autodidact.

groundless round (La Lechera), Friday, 13 February 2015 20:17 (nine years ago) link

i don't seek this sort of assistance, i was just wondering if such a thing existed

groundless round (La Lechera), Friday, 13 February 2015 20:17 (nine years ago) link

Yeah idk. I think a lot of women don't realize they're programmed, or don't feel the need to undo it bc they're happy enough with where they are in life with those messages, so the market isn't as big as it could be bc a lot of the need is hidden. There are prob some women who seek out feminist therapists to do this kind of thing?

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 13 February 2015 20:21 (nine years ago) link

i think men and women both feel that way tbh

groundless round (La Lechera), Friday, 13 February 2015 20:38 (nine years ago) link

HELLO did someone call my name with regards to a Welsh hottie upthread? Drog yw genev, yth esen vy yn Klass Kernewek.

I actually feel quite relieved reading this thread because I'm sorry; that suicide note just made my shoulders go up around my ears (as they say on Captain Awkward). Not just the contents of it (and the emotional manipulation therein) but the methods of dispersal - and y'know, there are press guidelines about how to report suicides and suicide attempts - but all that goes out the window when someone announces it so publicly? Not to speak ill of someone who is obviously ill and in pain, but... I just had this very strong sense of "this is only one side of the story here" and something just tweaking all of my "something is very wrong here" but thank you people for articulating what it was that was bothering me.

Coincidentally, I was just reading an Ann Friedmann (sp?) thing about Self Love on Tumblr.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 13 February 2015 20:46 (nine years ago) link

I put out the Welsh Hottie Branwell Signal! I don't know what the Welsh part of your post means, but I'm assuming it means something like, "Heck yeah that is one fine looking Welshman."

And he's 28, which is young but not like "make me feel like a filthy old lady" young. And so brooding.

about a dozen duck supporters (carl agatha), Friday, 13 February 2015 20:48 (nine years ago) link

Oh God, I am so glad this conversation happened because I read the note earlier and found it fucking awful and manipulative and horribly abusive but then I thought maybe it was only me and I've been sitting here all day wondering if I was fucked up for thinking that. So, thank you. Also, I really helps he gets help/better.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Friday, 13 February 2015 20:49 (nine years ago) link

And I feel a bad even talking about it because it's such a personal thing but it's been bothering me tremendously all day.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Friday, 13 February 2015 20:50 (nine years ago) link

Do you like looking at handsome brooding Welshmen? It helps, and I've got a good one.

about a dozen duck supporters (carl agatha), Friday, 13 February 2015 20:51 (nine years ago) link

Who doesn't?

(He is indeed v good.)

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Friday, 13 February 2015 20:53 (nine years ago) link

(also lol and <3)

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Friday, 13 February 2015 20:53 (nine years ago) link

I think I've talked before about a friend of mine who works in Probation who was trying to put together a series on "Detoxifying Masculinity and Your Fucked Up Ideas About Women" for male offenders, but that's probably outside the remit of what you're looking for.

But yeah, feminist therapy and that sort of thing. It's hard, when something is internalised on every level.

I am a basically shitty human being for this, but: I have a friend who is currently doing exactly that, doing a feminist form of therapy to repair a lot of damage and I can see her, on social media, trying to articulate things about herself, and practising self affirmation. And *I* find it hard not to react negatively to that. Like, part of it is that whole "ugh, girls and their ~blessed~ affirmations, ugh, gross" - even when I *know* this is therapy to get over some shit, there's still that kneejerk asshole that kicks in, wanting to deny it. Not to mention the whole British "how dare you think you're better than you are" reflex. Kinda peeling that back, and seeing this as something she's working on, and is healthy for her. If it's like that watching someone else do it, I can't even imagine how I'd react to trying to do it myself.

But I dunno, let's talk about crushes and Cillian Murphy's cheekbones and who *is* that Welsh boy and actually ugh I hate to admit it but I'm still nursing my HAAAAAATE crush, like, what on earth does it mean to have a massive throbbing crush on someone you loathe and think is terrible and ugly and ~annoying~ in every sense of the word but my god you want to smash them into subatomic particles crush. UGH.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 13 February 2015 20:56 (nine years ago) link

I think I've talked before about a friend of mine who works in Probation who was trying to put together a series on "Detoxifying Masculinity and Your Fucked Up Ideas About Women" for male offenders, but that's probably outside the remit of what you're looking for.

i dunno that's almost exactly what i was talking about! c

groundless round (La Lechera), Friday, 13 February 2015 20:59 (nine years ago) link

not for prisoners necessarily but in terms of content and delivery

groundless round (La Lechera), Friday, 13 February 2015 21:01 (nine years ago) link

we are all prisoners iirc (lol/sob)

groundless round (La Lechera), Friday, 13 February 2015 21:01 (nine years ago) link

That fellow is Aneurin Barnard, Welsh actor, and excellent object of a Google image search.

I need him to star in a BBC period piece involving cravats, like stat.

Sort of on the seminar topic, this is a fascinating book, even as it is really kind of bleak - http://www.amazon.com/Why-Does-He-That-Controlling/dp/0425191656

about a dozen duck supporters (carl agatha), Friday, 13 February 2015 21:02 (nine years ago) link

haha carl agatha, no, that just means "sorry, I didn't see it, I was in Cornish class."

Hot damn, this is one fine welshman would be... Splann! Ass yw Kembro pur vrav!

Branwell with an N, Friday, 13 February 2015 21:02 (nine years ago) link

...his name is Aneurin, too? God I love that name.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 13 February 2015 21:03 (nine years ago) link

In 2011 he starred in Hunky Dory alongside Minnie Driver. The film is set in 1976 during the hottest summer recorded, in a school in Swansea. Barnard played the role of Davy and in the film sang songs from the era such as David Bowie's "Life on Mars" and The Who's "Love Reign O'er Me".

I need to stop because my beloved husband lurks on this thread, but I'm just putting that here for no reason.

about a dozen duck supporters (carl agatha), Friday, 13 February 2015 21:04 (nine years ago) link

You're putting it there because I need to know these things, clearly! Let your conscience rest easy, and your husband too.

Feel my PAAAAAAAIIIIIIN. Feel the weight of my HAAAAAAAAATE-crush.
http://media.wix.com/ugd/af1bd4_bc8a0f962db54d27a4e9f7b881cfc579.pdf
I want to punch the smirk off his face*.

*by "punch" I clearly mean not in the awful DV sense of the word but just bear the general heat of my frustration and annoyance and the martyr-saint who is my namesake was known for out-arguing 1000 philosophers who were sent to confound her by evil pagans and basically that is what I want to do to him.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 13 February 2015 21:10 (nine years ago) link

That's a fine looking dude.

about a dozen duck supporters (carl agatha), Friday, 13 February 2015 21:19 (nine years ago) link

That book WHY DOES HE DO THAT? INSIDE THE MINDS OF ANGRY AND CONTROLLING MEN is really good. Like, reeeeeeeally good.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 13 February 2015 21:19 (nine years ago) link

NO HE IS NOT. HE IS HIDEOUS. AND TERRIBLE. AND ANNOYING.

x-post

Branwell with an N, Friday, 13 February 2015 21:21 (nine years ago) link

Just based on that picture and his little hair swoop, but I trust you that he is hideous and terrible and annoying and should be banished.

about a dozen duck supporters (carl agatha), Friday, 13 February 2015 21:27 (nine years ago) link

He should totally be banished. To my vagina.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 13 February 2015 21:28 (nine years ago) link

irl LOL

about a dozen duck supporters (carl agatha), Friday, 13 February 2015 21:31 (nine years ago) link

I can talk about Cillian Murphy's cheekbones all day, they're so dreamy.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 13 February 2015 21:48 (nine years ago) link

So what do we think, Wuthering Heights with Aneurin Barnard as Heathcliff and Cillian Murphy as Hindley?

about a dozen duck supporters (carl agatha), Friday, 13 February 2015 21:55 (nine years ago) link

I don't know, what happens in Wuthering Heights?

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 13 February 2015 21:57 (nine years ago) link

Well, it's kind of a terrible story of a bunch of people who live in the moors in northern England and absolutely fucking HATE each other and are shockingly cruel to each other in ways both petty and grand, that for some reason has been recast as a love story, BUT it's a great role for a broodingly handsome Welshman and there damn sure would be cravats.

about a dozen duck supporters (carl agatha), Friday, 13 February 2015 22:00 (nine years ago) link

It's a really good book, too, as long as you go into it with 1) an org chart to differentiate all of the similarly named characters and 2) knowledge that this ain't a love story.

about a dozen duck supporters (carl agatha), Friday, 13 February 2015 22:01 (nine years ago) link

I think I'll pass but let me know if like Guy Richie or someone directs it and puts in more car chases and making out? Thx <3 <3

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 13 February 2015 22:07 (nine years ago) link

But... cravats.

about a dozen duck supporters (carl agatha), Friday, 13 February 2015 22:10 (nine years ago) link

Mmmmm...nah. I like 'em scrappier than that.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 13 February 2015 22:11 (nine years ago) link

okay okay okay how about a Baz Luhrmann-esque Wuthering Heights re-imagining with cravats AND car chases!

about a dozen duck supporters (carl agatha), Friday, 13 February 2015 22:12 (nine years ago) link

You and Branwell should be absolutely bursting about there being moors and brooding, though! Happy for u

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 13 February 2015 22:12 (nine years ago) link

Filthy, disheveled cravats

about a dozen duck supporters (carl agatha), Friday, 13 February 2015 22:12 (nine years ago) link

You just flat out don't have any work to do, do you.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 13 February 2015 22:13 (nine years ago) link

Oh that Wuthering Heights movie doesn't exist (or I would be watching it RIGHT NOW). I am just fantasy casting.

about a dozen duck supporters (carl agatha), Friday, 13 February 2015 22:13 (nine years ago) link

Actually, I have so much fucking work that I actually cried about it last night.

about a dozen duck supporters (carl agatha), Friday, 13 February 2015 22:13 (nine years ago) link

;_______________;

Go right ahead and have that Aneurin-ism then and leave the work until Monday, pet.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 13 February 2015 22:15 (nine years ago) link

Aneurin-ism haha

about a dozen duck supporters (carl agatha), Friday, 13 February 2015 22:17 (nine years ago) link

Cillian Murphy's cheekbones...sigh. he's so pretty.

re: toxic masculinity, was just reading an article about david carr's memoir --"it’s a tremendous, skeptical book about masculinity and the damage men do to themselves and others in chasing all sorts of cockeyed ideas about what it means to be a real man."(tw/much abuse described)

JuliaA, Saturday, 14 February 2015 01:19 (nine years ago) link

Not to be all Captain Save-A-Brythonic-Language and ruin your joke with our awful vowels, but it's A-NYE-rin - hence Nye Bevan, etc. :)

Branwell with an N, Saturday, 14 February 2015 07:32 (nine years ago) link

Haha. It still kinda works

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Saturday, 14 February 2015 16:27 (nine years ago) link

There's a big cloud of billowing thoughts in my head that have yet to coalesce into something cogent, and maybe I need to write to write it out.

But it's really thinking about the various ways that men perform 'anti-sexism' or 'feminism' and how eye-rolly it can be. But this idea of evaluating people who say they're 'allies' not on what they say, but on what they do. Evaluating them not on what they say or perform about Women and Feminist Topics, but on how they treat actual women, especially ones who disagree with them. This will tell you a million times more than all the posturing on all the threads saying all the Things.

I've been trying to move beyond the endless cycle of outrage and rage - because it's so wearing and exhausting - and accomplishes little. But one aspect of that is noticing how many men use "lookit that terrible sexist over there! that man is bad!" as a way of distancing themselves from Sexism. That (bad man) is sexist. Not "we all exist in a constant background tide of sexism, in which I am myself complicit and carried along by." The actions of the Bad Man can be a convenient stand-in for repositories of bad feelings and exorcising them, rather than a call to action to examine how they may be swimming in the same current without realising it.

This can be broadened to many other situations. I'm trying to do this myself. Trying being the operative word; change is hard, breaking habits is difficult. It's still worth trying.

Actions are more important than words. When words and actions do not align, place more importance on actions.

(This is thinking out loud, and not to be taken as the forever-word of how I feel about things forever, but a work in progress.)

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 18 February 2015 09:24 (nine years ago) link

by their fruits ye shall know them

pilate is my cogod (Crabbits), Wednesday, 18 February 2015 13:25 (nine years ago) link

Yep.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Wednesday, 18 February 2015 13:27 (nine years ago) link

On guy tip: I liked this Cillian Murphy lite who played a corrupt & decadent space king in Jupiter Ascending

http://www.tvsa.co.za/images/uploads/thumbs/0057899.jpeg

partly handsome, partly some aspiration fantasy to be a decadent space king who lives in the bowels of Jupiter, bringer of jollity

pilate is my cogod (Crabbits), Wednesday, 18 February 2015 13:28 (nine years ago) link

Ha, Eddie Redmayne is one my mother's top crushes.

tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, 18 February 2015 13:38 (nine years ago) link

Also, you might appreciate that he used to model Rowan knitting patterns.

tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, 18 February 2015 13:43 (nine years ago) link

Hmm. He's not for me but A++ King of Jupiter at such a young age, clearly a rising star.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Wednesday, 18 February 2015 13:46 (nine years ago) link

Also, you might appreciate that he used to model Rowan knitting patterns.

― tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, February 18, 2015 1:43 PM (14 minutes ago)

VERY MUCH YES
LOOKING FORWARD TO THIS GIS AS AN AFTER-WORK TREAT

pilate is my cogod (Crabbits), Wednesday, 18 February 2015 13:58 (nine years ago) link

Don't fancy him much, but I like his clothes and I especially like his RINGS; I seem to be going through a phase of being attracted to excessive rings.

I'm trying to draw the annoying, horrible, bannable Mr D upthread, but I think I have well overdone it with his kiss-curl and especially his mascara. Like, I know he wears a lot of mascara, but I've drawn him wearing too too tooooo much mascara (runs in the dark).

But really, decadent space king is really the way forward, I think.

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 18 February 2015 14:11 (nine years ago) link

Where did I go wrong with my life that I am not currently, at this very moment, a Decadent Space King? Boo.

Yes to "we are all capable of bad things, immersed as we are in a culture which makes some bad things seem natural and/or not immediately obviously bad, but we are all also capable of examining ourselves and trying not to do bad things" rather than "doing bad things is for Bad People and I am not a Bad Person therefore I couldn't possibly have done a bad thing and (you/entire section of society) are being mean and possibly Bad Person if you suggest I might have" also. And yes, I need to get better at this too.

I think I noted on ILX before that, even though I blame myself for a lot of things which are realistically nothing to do with me, if I do something bad or if random-inconvenience happens to me my brain does immediately go into stampy-feet wasn't-me that-other-person-did-something mode (e.g. not "I walked into a puddle and got wet feet because I wasn't looking where I was going" but "I walked into a puddle and I wouldn't have if that bike hadn't gone past me thirty seconds ago and made me move across slightly! cyclist is very bad person how dare cyclists even exist!!1" etc). This is just one facet of that but I should do less of it in general.

(I am getting further and further from the point.)

undergraduate dance (a passing spacecadet), Wednesday, 18 February 2015 14:39 (nine years ago) link

No mine does that too, it's really bad. I've worked on it a lot and consider it part of my having (finally) started becoming an adult (by my own measure).

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Wednesday, 18 February 2015 14:42 (nine years ago) link

I blame myself for a lot of things which are realistically nothing to do with me

It helps to stop accepting any responsibility for the things in the above category, I think? Frees you up to take resp for actual puddles.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Wednesday, 18 February 2015 14:43 (nine years ago) link

I'm glad it's not just me!

Hmm, maybe you're right. I hadn't really looked at it that way round. Worth a try...

undergraduate dance (a passing spacecadet), Wednesday, 18 February 2015 14:45 (nine years ago) link

Working for someone who/in an environment that treated us like children was also encouraging me to behave like one emotionally, I discovered. I believed in theory that you should be able to be straightforward and honest about your mistakes, but in practice when you might get blamed for 100 other things it was too painful to add the ones you really meant.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Wednesday, 18 February 2015 14:49 (nine years ago) link

in orbit, I'm really feeling that at school. There are lots of things there that are no-one's responsibility and sometimes people disagree about who should do something, and therefore who should be blamed for it not getting done. That doesn't help.

I find it really hard to deal with people who do admit a mistake but don't bother apologizing, even more so than if they hadn't admitted responsibility in the first place (lol Brit) and am trying to let that go. Sometimes I even practice doing that myself. Feels weird. 'Yeah, I forgot to do that'. *tumbleweeds in place of apology*

ljubljana, Wednesday, 18 February 2015 15:43 (nine years ago) link

I've been reading this Big Book Of Stoic Philosophy the past week or two, and though I was hoping (from my memories of reading Seneca and Marcus Aurelius in high school Latin) it would be all EMOTIONS ARE BAD AND HERE'S HOW NOT TO HAVE THEM EVER AGAIN it wasn't like that at all.

It's more like dividing the world up into "things which are under your direct control and for which you are responsible" and "things that are out of your control" and cultivating different attitudes towards the latter.

And they're very big on the concept of "Indifference" and how things that are not under your control are indifferent to you. To which I was feeling very "but wait, no, some of the things that are not under your control I am most definitely NOT indifferent to, they are annoying or a nuisance or outright terrible" but then it was like, OK, wait, no, but the *events* are indifferent to me. The puddle is not splashing *at* me. It's a puddle; it's indifferent to humans. It splashes, that's what it does. I can take steps to avoid stepping in the puddle; or I can step in the puddle and accept that I'm wet, and it does not mean that puddles or cyclist or the universe hates me and are out to get me, because all of those things are indifferent to me, nor does it mean that I have to apologise for being an idiot and stepping in puddles. Puddles are just a thing that happen, not an obstacle the gods have placed in my path to try me or prove my idiocy.

I still think that apologising after one has really screwed up is still a good idea. But that really depends on intentionality. Like, if the mistake was under your control, apologise for it, and resolve to try harder not to do it next time. But if it really as just a random glitch that you are not responsible for, there's really no point in apologising for machine error or system error. (Though it's a mark of respect to apologise to people. You can choose who you show respect to, and why.)

But we're probably talking about a dozen different things all at once here.

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 18 February 2015 16:02 (nine years ago) link

This is a sign of how much I have internalised bullshit: that no matter how jokingly or how lightly I talk about philosophy of any kind on ILX, or y'know, life in general, I cringe in expectation of A Man jumping out of the woodwork and shouting at me how I'm RONG about some thing or other in it.

I really wish I could un-internalise that jumping shouting man.

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 18 February 2015 16:08 (nine years ago) link

Yeah, I'll apologise 99% of the time and it's nearly always the right thing to do. But today, for instance, someone pointed out that I forgot to schedule someone for some work. Well, 1. the reason I forgot is that our current scheduling system is ridiculously complicated and the person who reminded me today is the very person who insisted upon that, and 2. somehow I have evolved into the general lab HR person, which was never supposed to be the deal. So I'm treating my own forgetfulness a bit like 'system error'.

ljubljana, Wednesday, 18 February 2015 17:04 (nine years ago) link

OK so this is embarrassing to even admit but I don't know what else to do. One of my oldest friends is pregnant and I'm feeling all sorts of very strange feelings about it! I am, of course, ridiculously happy for her. There's also a huge element of surprise. She's been dating this person for less than a year and is already four months pregnant. They won't live together until a month before the baby is due. She's thrilled and I know this is something that she's always wanted so I really am pleased for her but I can't stop thinking about it and it's also making me very very sad, a little bit angry, and a bit like a loser. I know it shouldn't make me feel any of these things but it is and I hate it and I want it to stop. The thing is, I do want kids and I do hope to have them (or at least one) some day. I don't know. I'm just sad about a lot of things and this news is making me feel so many emotions and I wish it wasn't because I feel like a complete asshole.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Wednesday, 18 February 2015 20:17 (nine years ago) link

Also, the whole things is even stranger for me because I have very few close friends who have kids so I still can't get over the OMG there's a baby inside you part and I think that's a bit strange for her because she's always been around kids (she's a teacher) and has tons of friends who have multiple kids. Then I think about those people (who I know but not well) and think about the fact that they have like six and seven year olds which seems so responsible and adult and different from my reality and it makes me feel even worse. Yes, I know this is all dumb and I hate so much that I'm feeling this way.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Wednesday, 18 February 2015 20:19 (nine years ago) link

Oh I feel bad about posting that. Life is complicated and I live in a frozen hellscape and now have a two hour commute so I'm feeling all the feelings etc. blergh.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Wednesday, 18 February 2015 20:32 (nine years ago) link

jealousy is a perfectly normal emotion. you can care about your friend and still be envious of her

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Wednesday, 18 February 2015 20:32 (nine years ago) link

No, I know it is but it still doesn't feel great.

Weirdly enough I think I'm more jealous that her family is being supportive then of the actual having a baby thing. like I said, complicated.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Wednesday, 18 February 2015 20:33 (nine years ago) link

jealousy never feels great.

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Wednesday, 18 February 2015 20:36 (nine years ago) link

well, no, it doesn't

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Wednesday, 18 February 2015 20:37 (nine years ago) link

I needed a lot of therapy support when I was trying unsuccessfully to get pregnant (and even before we were trying and I just wanted to get started) and people I knew got pregnant. Because yeah, it felt terrible and I wanted to be happy for my friends! I don't remember what specifically worked. Maybe just talking about it in a safe place? But mostly just sarahell OTM, and I have been there, and you're not a bad person for feeling that way.

about a dozen duck supporters (carl agatha), Wednesday, 18 February 2015 20:40 (nine years ago) link

i don't mean to be flippant -- i've just been there a lot of times -- most recently, someone who i used to be really good friends with but who moved away about 5 years ago, messaged me and asked about one of my bff's music and raved about how awesome she was (he had never met her), and part of me was glad that my bff was getting appreciated for something that she works really hard at, but part of me was jealous that he wasn't messaging me about how awesome my band is

in situations like this, it helps me to remind myself that what i am feeling is totally normal, and that i am not a monster

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Wednesday, 18 February 2015 20:40 (nine years ago) link

Yeah, I talked to my therapist about it a little bit last week and will again tonight. I honestly wouldn't have expected it to have this much of a negative impact on me. I think some of that has to do with how I'm feeling in general right now (not great!) and the circumstances etc. Thanks though, it does help to know that others have felt this way. I actually spoke to another friend last night who also does not have any kids yet but might like to in the future and she told me that when she found out her little sister was pregnant she dealt with profound sadness. I think I'll try to call her again tomorrow.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Wednesday, 18 February 2015 20:44 (nine years ago) link

when she found out her little sister was pregnant she dealt with profound sadness.

Been there.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Wednesday, 18 February 2015 20:48 (nine years ago) link

aw, Erica, i'm sorry things have been not great for you lately! i don't have any really good advice but i have definitely been in the place where i have been sad/jealous/other negative emotion about a friend's good fortune, and i agree with carl and sarahell. you have to just feel it--at least you're also capable of being happy for her! recently a person i went to graduate school with got an amazing academic job and posted about it on facebook and i don't even want an academic job anymore, but it stung a little. it's human.

horseshoe, Wednesday, 18 February 2015 21:01 (nine years ago) link

this is not at all dumb. it's totally understandable & valid to feel that way, much as it sucks.

i get super complicated feelings about similar stuff--my life feels stuck. when others have big life events, the contrast freaks me out at times. when found out my sis was pregnant, i acted happy for her, hung up the phone, and sobbed....lost. my. shit.

I don't even want kids! but i can feel like such a fuckup sometimes next to others' responsible and adult(ish) lives.

>jealous that her family is being supportive

omfg so v relatable, that.

xps i'm slow. it's human--otm

JuliaA, Wednesday, 18 February 2015 21:02 (nine years ago) link

awww thanks so much guys this is helpful! I have to run but will write more later.

HS - hi, you! Thank you but it's not anything very serious. It's just the middle of winter and everything is grey and cold and there is TOO MUCH SNOW and none of our trains work and I'm pretty sure winter is making most people here feel terrible right now.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Wednesday, 18 February 2015 21:06 (nine years ago) link

your winter is totally crazy this year; that would be reason enough all by itself! <3 <3 <3 someday May will come!

horseshoe, Wednesday, 18 February 2015 21:10 (nine years ago) link

oh E, I have had those feelings, and I'm past the age when I'm going to have kids of my own. Recently someone in the lab had a baby, and, in contrast to your situation, it was someone I very much disliked. I couldn't even be happy for her to balance things out. I also feel very sad recently that my parents' grandkids aren't my kids, they're my stepsister's, and that draws them much closer to her than to me. (I did admittedly choose to move to Canada...)

ljubljana, Wednesday, 18 February 2015 21:21 (nine years ago) link

amen
may will come!!

feeling this but sarahell's right -- we're not monsters Weirdly enough I think I'm more jealous that her family is being supportive

groundless round (La Lechera), Wednesday, 18 February 2015 21:28 (nine years ago) link

cosigning that it's not dumb, be kind to yourself and let yourself feel those feelings

I was never really sure if I wanted kids but during my epic meltdown-over-ILX breakup I totally burst into tears on my walk home through a park seeing all the kids and parents around the play area and getting all "that will (probably) never be me"

I caught up with some old friends that I mostly lost touch with recently and some of them brought babies/toddlers along. I expected to be totally sad about how much they'd all moved on omg kids and careers, but actually I was more hit in the gut by how everyone was exactly the same except a little balder and older-faced and almost like 15 years hadn't even happened. the kids mostly just reminded me that I don't get how to be around kids, they make me uneasy (also everyone who was there got sick the next week and all the kid-free attendees blamed the kids, ha)

but despite acknowledging that unease I still get the pangs sometimes and I don't know if it's "I really want(ed) kids" or "feels like a milestone I missed and I should at least have some other life plan but I don't" or "never actually wanted but internalised every time my mother told me my aunt and uncle didn't have kids because they were weird/selfish/socially inept/too self-important in their careers as academic geniuses* to waste time on humans etc"

* which I certainly am not, university dropout here, an extra level of angst to catching up with former university friends

undergraduate dance (a passing spacecadet), Wednesday, 18 February 2015 21:36 (nine years ago) link

also everyone who was there got sick the next week and all the kid-free attendees blamed the kids

I'm generally the first to jump to the defense of children but in this case? It was TOTALLY the kids. Adorable little germ bombs, they are.

about a dozen duck supporters (carl agatha), Wednesday, 18 February 2015 21:42 (nine years ago) link

i don't get pangs or anything about kids, but marriage/weddings ... my weakness.

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Wednesday, 18 February 2015 21:54 (nine years ago) link

ehh it's bad enough you have to deal with the shitty complicated envy feelings, don't do yourself more damage by beating yourself up over it. you'll get used to the idea of your friends pregnancy and the feelings will sting a lot less very soon.

i get those pangs too, even though i know having kids isn't right for me; i always wanted a very idealized family of my own, to make up for what i lacked growing up. i realized that that was not a good reason to have kids, and that the reality of having children just isn't something i'm capable of dealing with.

so yeah, there's still a sting of negativity when i see my friends' happy family pics.

just1n3, Wednesday, 18 February 2015 22:13 (nine years ago) link

eh Branwell going way back but you mentioned the stoics
I liked this book as a general overview of that kind of worldview, modern & old, western & non
The Antidote: Happiness for People Who Can't Stand Positive Thinking
dumb self helpy title but I liked it as an overview & a breezy light read

pilate is my cogod (Crabbits), Thursday, 19 February 2015 02:30 (nine years ago) link

feeling envious of other people's babies, lives, etc is ok
all feelings are ok 2 feel
i cried for a couple days after both my younger sibs had babies
jealousy, confused for not fitting into their perfect role
I don't want to be in their place & I'm happy where I am
it was like barfing after bad food, though, just some reaction that happened
holding it in would've made me explode

pilate is my cogod (Crabbits), Thursday, 19 February 2015 02:34 (nine years ago) link

my goal lately is talk before or when I get to 80% explodey
so I never totally explode

pilate is my cogod (Crabbits), Thursday, 19 February 2015 02:34 (nine years ago) link

I don't want to be in their place & I'm happy where I am
it was like barfing after bad food, though, just some reaction that happened

very accurate even though i don't have siblings
any barf-related metaphor is one i'm likely to understand because i will puke at the slightest provocation

groundless round (La Lechera), Thursday, 19 February 2015 15:23 (nine years ago) link

But it's really thinking about the various ways that men perform 'anti-sexism' or 'feminism' and how eye-rolly it can be. But this idea of evaluating people who say they're 'allies' not on what they say, but on what they do. Evaluating them not on what they say or perform about Women and Feminist Topics, but on how they treat actual women, especially ones who disagree with them. This will tell you a million times more than all the posturing on all the threads saying all the Things.

I've been trying to move beyond the endless cycle of outrage and rage - because it's so wearing and exhausting - and accomplishes little. But one aspect of that is noticing how many men use "lookit that terrible sexist over there! that man is bad!" as a way of distancing themselves from Sexism. That (bad man) is sexist. Not "we all exist in a constant background tide of sexism, in which I am myself complicit and carried along by." The actions of the Bad Man can be a convenient stand-in for repositories of bad feelings and exorcising them, rather than a call to action to examine how they may be swimming in the same current without realising it.

― Branwell with an N, Wednesday, February 18, 2015 4:24 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i am very very very much feeling this today. an activist dude in my circle who seems to be constantly attempting to sow discontent among women, who uses women's labor and steals credit, etc. i want to confront him with what i've noticed about him, challenge him to reflect and change if he really believes what he gives lip service to.

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Thursday, 19 February 2015 18:53 (nine years ago) link

is there something stopping you from laying out the facts about his counterproductive behavior and asking him to make xyz changes? (not a flippant question, just wondering)

groundless round (La Lechera), Thursday, 19 February 2015 19:52 (nine years ago) link

I'm not going to speak for Roxy but I think many of us have had encounters with the Right-On Dude and the seemingly inevitable shitstorm when you suggest that his actions might be somewhere beneath his lofty conception of himself as "A Good Guy." Like, it's true, you are in a way fundamentally undermining his preconception of himself. (With the resulting shitstorm of "how dare you impugn my credentials" and "stop being divisive" and "you're the real problem here")

Does anyone have a method that actually works? Because I sure as hell keep doing the wrong thing.

Crabbit, is that book by Oliver Burkeman? I liked his Guardian column but I'm not sure I could take a whole book of him. But that is the thing: I mean, you know my beef with mindless positivism.

But that's what I like about the Stoics: they fully admit, lots of shitty things happen. Accepting that and sometimes trying to think about the outcomes of shitty things and how you would handle them better is a good exercise

I'm also kind of relieved about letting go of the idea of being "A Good Person" - like, there is no such thing as a good person. (A relief because I have been a terrible person fairly often.) One can choose to act in accordance with "virtue" (I am going to end up learning Greek to understand these terms better.) If one doesn't, one learns from the mistake.

I guess that's a way to think about the Right-On Dudes who talk a feminist talk but act in ways that are harmful to individual women? I have no idea how to express it to them without that "how dare you, a mere, simple woman CALL OUT me, the Great Feminist Man!" But you can usually tell actual feminist men from the way they handle that.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 20 February 2015 07:07 (nine years ago) link

like, there is no such thing as a good person.

I disagree ... not that I believe my definition of "a good person" is universal or that there should be a universal definition ... but having that idea to aspire to is important to me existentially.

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Friday, 20 February 2015 07:41 (nine years ago) link

Well there are people who act well, and people whose actions are good, and people whose intentions are good? But "good people"? People are inherently ambivalent, capable of both good and evil. It is the actions that matter. No one just sits in their room being holy all day.

Thinking more on my above post: a think a proper Stoic response would be to say nothing. You cannot change other people, you can only change your views of them and your responses to them. You can certainly withdraw your assent of your agreement from their behaviour. But if they choose to privilege their belief in themselves as "A Good Feminist" over actually treating women like human beings, that's their bag. I'm obviously not a good Stoic as I have trouble not putting my 2 cents in.

On that note, I will shut up, as cavilling does nothing.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 20 February 2015 07:54 (nine years ago) link

Well there are people who act well, and people whose actions are good, and people whose intentions are good? But "good people"? People are inherently ambivalent, capable of both good and evil. It is the actions that matter. No one just sits in their room being holy all day.

i think that is what makes a good person, good, to act well even though they are ambivalent and capable of acting badly. And few people act "good" all the time. Anyway, this is more of a morals and religion discussion that is odd having here

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Friday, 20 February 2015 08:55 (nine years ago) link

Ugh, I typed out a reply and lost wifi connection.

Yeah I think that we're talking at cross purposes?

Perhaps this is a holdover from Protestantism: the idea that there are Inherently Good people, which, holds within it the idea that there must also be Inherently Bad people. Letting go of the idea of (Inherently) Good People means that I can also let go of the idea of Inherently Bad people. This is twofold: first, letting go of the terror that *I* might just be "A Bad Person". (I often think I use ILX as an instrument of self harm in this way: a whole selection of people very vocal and willing to tell me to my face what a Terrible Person I am! Thus confirming that view.) But also it might lead to me trying to learn more compassion towards other people? They're not "Bad People" either, just consistently making choices that seem right to them, but are deleterious to me or others?

I don't want to go too far down the "Choices" road because Structure always affects the choices that are *available* but it's a new way of thinking for me.

Apologies if this is an inappropriate place to have had this conversation. Apologies if this is something that everyone else learned in Sixth Form and I'm a simpleton for not thinking about it that way. I guess I was absent that day.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 20 February 2015 12:40 (nine years ago) link

I was really looking forward to being off the pill because I dunno seemed like it would be nice or at least no much more of a bother. RONG.

Apparently, off the pill my period will kick in oh say every two weeks? Which is particularly inconvenient when you are on overseas vacation thinking you are so fine, you have a big cushion of time until next period, and then WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK and it is so crazy heavy to boot (thanks a lot, fucking fibroids!). But what has brought me to tears (along with having a terrible cold with fever and chills and tubercular cough) is I am in TURKEY and JUST YOU TRY AND FIND A TAMPON IN TURKEY. YOU CANNOT. So poor spouse trekked in snow and ice (yeah, weather didn't work out so great for this part of the vacation) to the only shop he could find open. He asked "what do I look for" and I'm like "the heaviest ones!!!" So he brought back a selection, all of which have the max number of droplet symbols (five) filled in and something that looks kind of like "max" in turkish, in contrast to three droplets and something that looks like "normal" in turkish, and goddamn if the max are oh just above long pantyliner duty.

TURKISH WOMEN: WHAT IS YOUR SECRET TO HAIR, MENSTRUATION?

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 20 February 2015 20:21 (nine years ago) link

Anyway thanking u for rant space and also any ideas about what I should do about this sitch other than see my GYN, which I will. I have a feeling she'll be like options are a) deal with it, b) back on pill (I'm forty one years old! Started on the pill in my 20s! Give me a break), or c) some sort of interventional approach like fibroid shaving.

Just fucking take the thing out already. All of it. Please. Has been of no use to me since day one, only causes me troubles.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 20 February 2015 20:24 (nine years ago) link

I'll shop around for that BOGO deal we discussed earlier.

I'm sorry you're dealing with that. It sounds fucking brutal. :(

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Friday, 20 February 2015 20:37 (nine years ago) link

thank you, carl.

Actually I am wrong that no good has come of being *off* the pill--I used to get really awful hormonally-triggered migraines when the estrogen went bye-bye. But my GYN helped me get that under control by taking a wee bit of premarin on days 24-28.

I'm sure she'll help me with this too. My two cents for anyone looking for a GYN is that it is helpful to have someone who does *only* GYN, not OB. The frees him/her up to be really focused on not preggos and their periods and menopause and such.

I have just been delivered hot soup and a xanax from my favorite person in the universe, so all will be better shortly :)

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 20 February 2015 20:58 (nine years ago) link

yeah going off the pill did some weird things to me, but getting rid of the migraines was the best
hope you feel better soon
sorry you got bad period on your vacation :(

groundless round (La Lechera), Friday, 20 February 2015 21:00 (nine years ago) link

congrats on having a favorite person in the universe who cares so much about you!

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Friday, 20 February 2015 21:01 (nine years ago) link

LL did you wait it out and things settled down? I know YMMV and all that but I'll gladly take anecdotes.

xpost yeah I am lucky big time. Person is now showing me videos of red foxes playing in the snow and ommmmmmmmmmmgggggg

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 20 February 2015 21:03 (nine years ago) link

wait the red pandas you mean?

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Friday, 20 February 2015 21:05 (nine years ago) link

This one might make you feel better too then: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Se6flT2EWs

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Friday, 20 February 2015 21:06 (nine years ago) link

oh yes red pandas! Thank you! They are so cute, I don't know why I did not realize the cuteness potential before!

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 20 February 2015 21:07 (nine years ago) link

LL did you wait it out and things settled down? I know YMMV and all that but I'll gladly take anecdotes.
yes
definitely settled down. aside from having to deal with it every 4 weeks, my only menstrual complaint these days is mittelschmerz on my right ovary. otherwise, it's really great to be free of that dull feeling that pervaded every waking day and then erupted into a monthly migraine followed by a light period. i'll take a slightly heavier period and even cramps for a week if it means i feel alive for the rest of the weeks i am not having my period.

groundless round (La Lechera), Friday, 20 February 2015 21:12 (nine years ago) link

i resent the fact that my menstrual cycle is now 26 days. maybe it has been for a while, and i never noticed? anyway, i just want those extra 2 days back.

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Friday, 20 February 2015 21:15 (nine years ago) link

the mirena IUD has lightened my periods and reduced the severe back cramping, but now i get really terrible boob-pain! not every time tho.

just1n3, Friday, 20 February 2015 21:17 (nine years ago) link

my PMS is more manageable now too
i feel capable of handling it, whereas before between the headaches and the emotional shit i was a total messssss

groundless round (La Lechera), Friday, 20 February 2015 21:20 (nine years ago) link

i resent the fact that my menstrual cycle is now 26 days. maybe it has been for a while, and i never noticed? anyway, i just want those extra 2 days back.

― Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Friday, February 20, 2015 9:15 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Not to alarm you, but mine has gotten shorter as I've gotten older and I'm at about 21 days now. :|

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Friday, 20 February 2015 21:24 (nine years ago) link

if genetics are anything to go by, i've got another 10 years to go

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Friday, 20 February 2015 21:25 (nine years ago) link

anyway, these posts are so otm right now

i hate dryer sheets, they are pointless

― harbl, Saturday, June 20, 2009 6:43 PM (5 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i don't like anything that makes things smell like anything!

― harbl, Saturday, June 20, 2009 6:43 PM (5 years ago)

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Friday, 20 February 2015 21:29 (nine years ago) link

Dryer sheets are not only pointless they actually make towels LESS ABSORBENT by coating them in a layer of goo. No thanks.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 20 February 2015 21:31 (nine years ago) link

i've never understood why or how to use fabric softener

groundless round (La Lechera), Friday, 20 February 2015 21:32 (nine years ago) link

White vinegar in a Downy ball for towels, IMO.

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Friday, 20 February 2015 21:33 (nine years ago) link

xp me neither, but i have some downstairs neighbors that do a lot of laundry that always involves scented dryer sheets

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Friday, 20 February 2015 21:34 (nine years ago) link

Sarahell, mine has gone to 25-26 days.

tokyo rosemary, Friday, 20 February 2015 22:15 (nine years ago) link

I got an implanon insert & I love it. Except my period come every 4-5 months and I barf a lot the day before it happens! Not sure if it's coincidence. I am goign to talk to my oh bee jee why en about this.

quincie I am shaking my fist at the sky in re: yur endometrium

pilate is my cogod (Crabbits), Saturday, 21 February 2015 00:15 (nine years ago) link

using towels coated in fabric softener goo is seriously a bad feeling. i love clean laundry. fabric softened laundry is no longer clean.

computer champion (harbl), Saturday, 21 February 2015 01:40 (nine years ago) link

fabric softened laundry is no longer clean.

otm, it is a product for the home lol, but mostly sad

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Saturday, 21 February 2015 03:10 (nine years ago) link

dryer sheets are only useful for anti staticking clothes & even then i hesitate

the smell, i hate it

difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 21 February 2015 03:54 (nine years ago) link

I like unscented liquid fabric softener for regular clothes because otherwise, especially in these dry winter days, everything is a staticky shocking mess. (Detergent is unscented, too. I really hate the smell of laundry scents. Did you know you can buy shit that is just smell to add to your laundry? I do not understand it and I do not care for it.)

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Saturday, 21 February 2015 04:08 (nine years ago) link

http://www.downy.com/en-US/product-line/scent-booster.jspx

What the fuck is this shit

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Saturday, 21 February 2015 04:08 (nine years ago) link

scents where there should not be scents is a thing I hate
like scented tampons. wtf. in what universe is having your vag smell like a yankee candle store better than the alternative?

anyway i've drifted off topic as always

difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 21 February 2015 05:12 (nine years ago) link

on the contrary, you brought it back around to tampons, which I am looking forward to obtaining at the airport today, especially when spouse came out of the bathroom this a.m. (I was still in bed) and said "uh-oh," and I looked up and he had blood smears on his chest! Which he was very gracious about.

Instead of crying again (well, I did cry again, but just a little), I thought of ENBB's bbq mouth story and laughed :)

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Saturday, 21 February 2015 07:25 (nine years ago) link

using towels coated in fabric softener goo is seriously a bad feeling.

I like to put a little in (not tons or, as pointed out, they are not absorbent) because it fluffs them up a bit and otherwise they come out like scratchy hard rags which are more scouring than drying.

This might just be because I have old, cheap towels which have been washed a million times. Maybe it is even because they have been washed a million times with (a little) fabric softener. Hmm.

No to scented tampons though. I have enough trouble with scented products making my skin itch, you want me to put some up there? (and add to my TSS phobia/hypochondria too)

undergraduate dance (a passing spacecadet), Saturday, 21 February 2015 12:59 (nine years ago) link

like scented tampons. wtf. in what universe is having your vag smell like a yankee candle store better than the alternative?

i think i bought some by mistake once ... they smelled like ...... dryer sheets

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Saturday, 21 February 2015 21:03 (nine years ago) link

terrible revelation: my mom always used dryer sheets in the laundry, so i've always used them, too. now i realize that i have no conception of what non-dryer sheet laundry is even like!

bonkers candle ancestors (reddening), Saturday, 21 February 2015 21:39 (nine years ago) link

I've been living in a tiny flat in London so long I've forgotten what laundry dried in a dryer and not just strung over the radiators is even like.

Branwell with an N, Sunday, 22 February 2015 06:52 (nine years ago) link

I use the unscented dryer sheets because an allergic reaction to fabric softener once had me drive myself to the ER at 4:00 am for a shot in the butt of prednisone followed by a week of pills and I still had red welts for A MONTH after that. If I don't use anything then everything just gets too stacticy.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Sunday, 22 February 2015 13:15 (nine years ago) link

i don't have staticky clothes but i don't really know why

computer champion (harbl), Sunday, 22 February 2015 13:26 (nine years ago) link

one of my cats is really staticky; I've wondered if I should rub him with a dryer sheet (not really)

To wrap up the tamponless-in-turkey story: arrived at the airport with plenty of time to score some sort of "feminine hygiene product" in the very large and very busy international departures terminal. The Ataturk airport has one of the biggest duty free stores--I shouldn't even call it a store, it is like its own *wing*--I have ever seen, along with some luxury brand shops and a book and movie store. Also a Popeyes Chicken.

But no pharmacy.

No Hudson News type place with overpriced toiletries in tiny sizes.

No tampons.

NO PADS.

NO NOTHING!!!!! NOWHERE IN THE AIRPORT!

Our flight was then delayed three hour, increasing my panic because I am already halfway through the 17 pads that the spouse had gotten the night before. There is no way in hell I am going to make it through the three-hour delay, much less the ten hour flight! Still sick as hell, achy and coughing and miserable, desperate ad tearful, I realize my only option at this point was basically to start asking strangers if they had anything they could spare.

And then, in the distance, I saw a better solution: the Emirates VIP lounge, where I could see two lovely young women staffing the front desk.

I walked in and immediately burst into tears explaining my situation. They could not have been more lovely and gracious. "It is no problem! We can help you with this! Please, sit and we will take care of you." They led me to the lounge and poured me a fancy water, and in a minute or two appeared with with several pads wrapped up all nicely in paper, like a present.

To the ladies of Emirates Air, you are my heroes. Thank you for being so kind and soothing. The next time I am in a position to help another woman out of a pickle, I will do so in your honor!

Now back home and crazy heavy period seems to have disappeared as abruptly and mysteriously as it had appeared.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Sunday, 22 February 2015 16:20 (nine years ago) link

(I have totally rubbed a dryer sheet on a staticky cat before)

kate78, Sunday, 22 February 2015 17:29 (nine years ago) link

i don't have staticky clothes but i don't really know why

― computer champion (harbl), Sunday, February 22, 2015 5:26 AM (4 hours ago)

same here

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Sunday, 22 February 2015 17:47 (nine years ago) link

Everything in our house is so staticky that when I wash my hands, I get a shock from the water coming out of the faucet.

q, that is a fantastic story!

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Sunday, 22 February 2015 18:12 (nine years ago) link

aw quincie that story made me so teary. yay for the emirates ladies!!!

my friend was an exchange student for a year in Latvia in the early 90's. before she left her host sister had the presence of mind to watn her "BRING ALL OF YR WESTERN TAMPONS" if she hadnt brought literally a suitcase full, she said she would have been cutting up towels & bedsheets

difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 22 February 2015 19:11 (nine years ago) link

i had my mom mail me tampons when i lived in colombia in college
i think the lesson of that story is "if you need some menstrual assistance, ask a woman!"

groundless round (La Lechera), Sunday, 22 February 2015 22:05 (nine years ago) link

is there something stopping you from laying out the facts about his counterproductive behavior and asking him to make xyz changes? (not a flippant question, just wondering)

― groundless round (La Lechera), Thursday, February 19, 2015 2:52 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is old but i never replied

i think it's the fact that we work together on projects and i fear that i am/i will be seen as someone who burns bridges with people who don't agree with me and fucks up working relationships. and that that plays into his stereotyping of me and a few of the other women we work with.

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Thursday, 26 February 2015 18:18 (nine years ago) link

and also i fear that he has more cache than me in a particular project and that my calling him out will lead to a schism with me on the losing side. id be in the right, but id also be left out of yet another project because of other people's problems dealing w/ women (or my problems putting up with BS)

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Thursday, 26 February 2015 18:20 (nine years ago) link

id be in the right, but id also be left out of yet another project because of other people's problems dealing w/ women (or my problems putting up with BS)

― jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Thursday, February 26, 2015 10:20 AM (30 minutes ago)

totally know this dilemma. i chose "being in the right" a lot when i was younger, and i occasionally ask myself, "what if i didn't make a fuss? what if i didn't quit? maybe i made the wrong choice in retrospect?"

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Thursday, 26 February 2015 18:57 (nine years ago) link

A lot of why I started the art/music venue I did, and kept at it for 10 years, was so I could set the terms and put up with less of that sort of BS.

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Thursday, 26 February 2015 19:00 (nine years ago) link

i guess my thing is that it doesn't have to be a big confrontation. if you work with this person in any capacity, and it's work, it can start as a simple cordial (professional) conversation. i guess i deal with needing to confront people a lot for work and usually don't reach the point of actual confrontation unless someone is like lying to my face. then i don't feel bad about it at all. if it's a "we need to get along better" convo that's kind of normal and not worth second guessing if the professional relationship is worth saving. if it's not, who cares? but it sounds like you care.

groundless round (La Lechera), Thursday, 26 February 2015 19:23 (nine years ago) link

however, i fully understand that these professional relationships are more nebulous than the ones i deal with at work, where there are at least somewhat clear job responsibilities, etc.

groundless round (La Lechera), Thursday, 26 February 2015 19:24 (nine years ago) link

it's a lot easier if it's related to a job where you both get paid at a "professional" place of employment. When it's something that is somewhat like "a hobby," it is harder because the guiding principle tends to be "fun" or "enjoyment" so there is an enjoinder to not do/say things that get in the way of that.

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Thursday, 26 February 2015 19:52 (nine years ago) link

yeah that's why i added the disclaimer -- i can see how it would be more difficult.

groundless round (La Lechera), Thursday, 26 February 2015 19:53 (nine years ago) link

of course, you're no dummy! I'm just trying to articulate the dynamics of creative project relationships. It's something I've thought about for a long time, but I don't yet have a pat response/clear analysis.

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Thursday, 26 February 2015 20:18 (nine years ago) link

it's like i just want to pretend like the awkward dynamics aren't there and treat it like any other professional interaction, the way it should be. even though i know it's not really like that :(

hell i still haven't found any local people who want to have anything to do with me; it's a long road. i wish you the strength to do what you need to do roxy!

groundless round (La Lechera), Thursday, 26 February 2015 20:23 (nine years ago) link

prob just stop going to meetings and play video games instead

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Friday, 27 February 2015 07:39 (nine years ago) link

I've been looking at doctoral dissertations lately and for some reason I always read the acknowledgements. I'm sick of seeing variations on 'I could not possibly have got through this without the love of my husband/wife/squeeze'. How am I supposed to get through it as a single woman, then? Yes, I'd really love to have someone to support me through this, and just support me in general, to be honest, but I'm not going to NOT get through it without that hypothetical person.

ljubljana, Sunday, 1 March 2015 16:37 (nine years ago) link

Let's just take a moment to consider that maybe that Thank You is for all the years that spouse put up with the PhD's always being busy, always being distracted, long nights, academia bullshit, and listening to the same 700-odd pages of material for 4-8 years. Just think--you won't be forcing that on anyone! You're practically a walking, talking public service.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Sunday, 1 March 2015 16:48 (nine years ago) link

Ha! The thank you is deserved for those reasons and more, it's true. And internalizing all that is hard, and would be easier with a partner, but maybe I'll manage it without my head exploding.

ljubljana, Sunday, 1 March 2015 16:56 (nine years ago) link

Me & my friend wanted to have a thank you page in our masters thesis that was just an itemized list of how much vodka & wine we drank while writing it.

pilate is my cogod (Crabbits), Sunday, 1 March 2015 16:59 (nine years ago) link

PhD candidates probably shouldn't ever be allowed to inflict that on anyone in a domestic partner relationship tbh, and anyone who doesn't smother them in their sleep is a much nicer person than I am.

xp lolol

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Sunday, 1 March 2015 17:00 (nine years ago) link

Crabbits, that would have been awesome.

I should add that my dept. and field is filled mostly with women, which is why I posted it in this thread. Men also say they couldn't have done it without their wives. It's just that I see such an overwhelming number of women thanking men for enabling them to finish a task. I know it's an unusual task, and that support is helpful, but it still gets to me as a single woman.

ljubljana, Sunday, 1 March 2015 17:01 (nine years ago) link

I know, I'm just trying to take the edge off with bitter mockery. As you do.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Sunday, 1 March 2015 17:03 (nine years ago) link

I know I'm a jerrrrrrrrk but those spousal acknowledgements always have a touch of "Thank you to my wife for taking care of all my bodily needs, our home, and raising our children p much on her own while I pursued this" and for women, it's "Thank you to my husband for accepting he was going to have to learn to cook and that our home and children would be uncared for while I pursued this."

It's possible that I'm like a person who only has a hammer so all they see is a nail--all I see is women's labor everywhere I look.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Sunday, 1 March 2015 17:08 (nine years ago) link

You succeeded in taking the edge off, and it's much appreciated as today is one of those I'm-not-good-enough days. I mean, I'm practically not allowed to be a female grad student if I don't have those, right? (Caveats: this may also apply to the majority of men. And it probably did NOT apply to my female supervisor).

ljubljana, Sunday, 1 March 2015 17:27 (nine years ago) link

Yeah but she's crazy. And mean. (If it's the person you talked about.)

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Sunday, 1 March 2015 17:51 (nine years ago) link

(I mean, to me. Who we talked about.)

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Sunday, 1 March 2015 17:51 (nine years ago) link

Yes, her. She's improved very much in the last year or so, but she's still a deeply socially odd person all the time, and yes, still mean some of the time.

ljubljana, Sunday, 1 March 2015 18:20 (nine years ago) link

I know I'm a jerrrrrrrrk but those spousal acknowledgements always have a touch of "Thank you to my wife for taking care of all my bodily needs, our home, and raising our children p much on her own while I pursued this" and for women, it's "Thank you to my husband for accepting he was going to have to learn to cook and that our home and children would be uncared for while I pursued this."

Quoting for truth.

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Sunday, 1 March 2015 20:54 (nine years ago) link

I think of it in terms of "Thanks for relocating to a location not of your choosing and taking on more of the financial burden of keeping us sheltered and fed."

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Sunday, 1 March 2015 20:57 (nine years ago) link

ljub, do you have a support network? even it's just people to call and vent to from time to time? if not you should at least complain on ilx. all the time!

i totally feel your frustration; when i was trying to finish a ph.d. i was single and it seemed like most people who had stuck it out in the program were coupled off. i wondered if there were someone to cook me dinner sometimes if it would have kept me from...disappearing from my own life for long periods of time, with no work done and no way to account for my whereabouts. but i have no evidence that this was true. single women did complete the ph.d, including dear friends of mine. it was hard, but it was hard for everyone and at least they didn't have significant others getting in their faces about how remote they were and how they didn't do the dishes enough or whatever.

io is completely otm, Ph.D. candidates' significant others are generally sick of their shit. she is also correct about differential gendered labor taking place within heterosexual academic households, at least in my experience.

horseshoe, Sunday, 1 March 2015 21:07 (nine years ago) link

Same with partner track lawyer households.

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Sunday, 1 March 2015 21:09 (nine years ago) link

I didn't know Jeff could cook.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Sunday, 1 March 2015 21:28 (nine years ago) link

I'm not a partner track lawyer.

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Sunday, 1 March 2015 21:28 (nine years ago) link

thank god for that 'cause ilx needs you

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Sunday, 1 March 2015 21:29 (nine years ago) link

jk jk

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Sunday, 1 March 2015 21:30 (nine years ago) link

I've been billing out the wazoo for the last two weeks or so and let me tell you, partner track is for the birds.

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Sunday, 1 March 2015 21:32 (nine years ago) link

xps to horseshoe - my support network is mostly a couple of people in the lab, plus a couple of other student friends here who aren't very close but with whom I can vent and have fun once a month or so. I don't tend to vent to friends and family back in the UK because when I manage to Skype with them I just want happy catch-up conversations, and not to comb over what feel like failures! Sometimes I moan to my dad as he's an academic and 'gets it', when he can be bothered to listen.

The trouble with locating your support network in the lab is that when issues come up between you, as they did this week, you feel really cast off. That happened this week (somebody getting more and more obsessive about little details of the way we do things and appearing to accuse other people of being lazy). So I'm down to a support network of one, really - it's just me the other student in the lab that I'm really close to, bitching about our colleague :/ That won't last, we'll figure it out with the other person, but it feels shitty.

ljubljana, Sunday, 1 March 2015 21:58 (nine years ago) link

Once a month! My god I would never make it as an academic. I'm feeling shut in NOW and I was out til 3am dancing.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Sunday, 1 March 2015 22:00 (nine years ago) link

Or whatever kind of movement you can manage in a 17 foot wide bar with 200 other people.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Sunday, 1 March 2015 22:00 (nine years ago) link

sorry to hear that about your internal lab politics! it makes sense that you wouldn't want to talk about grad school stuff with friends and family--i tended not to either. if it's not too personal a question, do you have a therapist? i only ask because i wish i had had one back in grad school. more essential than a significant other to survive the experience imo!

horseshoe, Sunday, 1 March 2015 22:10 (nine years ago) link

i also feel like UK people are more stiff upper lip about emotional support, so maybe you don't need these things the way i did, and i am being terribly nosy, so ignore me if i'm prying too much. i just have lifelong fellow-feeling for women in graduate school.

horseshoe, Sunday, 1 March 2015 22:11 (nine years ago) link

Two different people in my fb feed got engaged today and I am feeling some kinda way about it.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Monday, 2 March 2015 02:12 (nine years ago) link

Although I feel p garbagey in general and I'm prob PMSing so whatevs.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Monday, 2 March 2015 02:13 (nine years ago) link

xps - no therapist. I'm not against the idea at all, apart from the cost. If I had one, though, I'd take up every minute of my weekly hour or whatever with family stuff for weeks and weeks before I ever got to the lab! Things aren't so bad in the lab, and nowhere near as bad as a year ago. But yeah, the fear of doing poor work, dealing with my supervisor and occasional politics can get very overwhelming. At the moment I dream most nights about letting people down. Last night I dreamt I organized a conference, turned up and sat around doing nothing and not going to sessions. A lovely woman from our sister lab upstairs was my co-organizer and she looked so disappointed in me but she didn't say anything.

horseshoe, I was just thinking of you the other day because I was thinking about what I would do if I graduated and couldn't face doing an academic job (which is a possibility) and the first thing that occurred to me was high school teaching. And then I remembered the levels of stress radiating from the teacher thread and thought of you and thought, well, grad school may be stressful but I bet it doesn't touch teaching!

Engagements don't make me feel much, but the pregnancies of the early 40s crowd do. Sure this came up on some other thread recently but can't remember where.

ljubljana, Monday, 2 March 2015 03:23 (nine years ago) link

just wanted to follow up on an old topic --

i am pleased to report that i think that i have made a new female friend and we have hung out twice, both times top notch fun and larfs
she has time to spare and a worldview similar to mine, and we have lots of things in common (but also some things not in common, a nice blend) i feel optimistic.

groundless round (La Lechera), Thursday, 5 March 2015 19:03 (nine years ago) link

That's awesome! It feels good to connect to people.

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Thursday, 5 March 2015 19:06 (nine years ago) link

yeah it totally does and has historically been somewhat challenging for me

groundless round (La Lechera), Thursday, 5 March 2015 19:13 (nine years ago) link

Congrats!!

I have a friend moving to Chi in about 4-6 weeks who I would also like to connect you to if u want, just to see if you might enjoy each other? No pressure obv.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Thursday, 5 March 2015 19:23 (nine years ago) link

maaaaybe

groundless round (La Lechera), Thursday, 5 March 2015 19:26 (nine years ago) link

She is a v kind person who also loves human connection but has found it sometimes hard to cultivate, and long ago gave up satisfying societal norms. And she bikes and runs and is a great cook and tends to be activity oriented so you can get her to do p much anything w you!

xp haha don't worry, your call/your speed.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Thursday, 5 March 2015 19:28 (nine years ago) link

that is good news LL

have had a week of almost daily interaction with a couple of girlfriends due to hospital craziness

it is def v restorative. as a naturally-inclined-hermit it is a bit of a shock to the system but in a good way

difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 5 March 2015 19:32 (nine years ago) link

http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6319

Sewanee: The University of the South will unveil a giant golden clitoris statue that will reside in the school’s library with a luncheon and reception this afternoon.

From Feb., 25 to March 11, a giant golden clitoris sculpture will be on display in Sewanee’s library to promote feminist artist Sophia Wallace’s “CLITERACY” project. Sewanee’s Women’s Center has promoted the event on social media with hashtags such as #SolidGoldClit and #yeaSEWANEEScliterate.

“By occupying public space with information about women’s bodies, CLITERACY destigmatizes the information itself, facilitating open dialogue,” the event description states. “Wallace’s work reveals the “phallic as neutral” bias in science, law, philosophy, politics, mainstream and even feminist discussion, and the art world. Her art will be displayed in DuPont Library as a means of mirroring the cultural silence surrounding issues of female sexuality in today’s world as well as throughout history.”

groundless round (La Lechera), Friday, 6 March 2015 19:01 (nine years ago) link

behold the yoni power

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B-jYXENIUAAIR1c.jpg

groundless round (La Lechera), Friday, 6 March 2015 19:13 (nine years ago) link

Nice.

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Friday, 6 March 2015 19:14 (nine years ago) link

is that a crack in the wall or the power cable from the sign? i'm sorry but i spent over a decade installing media art in galleries and museums.

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Saturday, 7 March 2015 19:03 (nine years ago) link

it looks like the cable?

difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 7 March 2015 21:43 (nine years ago) link

Tampon string? (Sorry)

groundless round (La Lechera), Saturday, 7 March 2015 21:56 (nine years ago) link

irl lol

difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 7 March 2015 21:59 (nine years ago) link

unless it's meant to resemble a tampon string, it's poorly installed.

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Sunday, 8 March 2015 01:33 (nine years ago) link

three weeks pass...

Is there where we were talking about female friends? I think so. Anyway, my awesome girlfriend from work is still the best. This friendship reminds me of two I've had where we just clicked instantly and those others are still best friends to this day. This is so silly but I'm worried about being too much or messing it up somehow! I'm just so glad to have a new awesome friend and I don't want to ruin it. lol @ me. Also, we're supposed to hang out tonight and I really want to but I have a horrible cold and feel awful and don't know if I'm up to it. :( I don't want her to be mad at me but she's a total germaphobe so probably wouldn't want to be near me anyway. Hi it's super early and I feel like crap/am a little delirious but my new friend is the best.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Saturday, 4 April 2015 11:36 (nine years ago) link

just tell her now that you are feeling crappy and try to work in plans to reschedule.

if she enjoys yr friendship as much as you do hers, i doubt she'd be mad! disappointed to miss yr company, but not MAD :)

difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 4 April 2015 15:15 (nine years ago) link

imo, she'll appreciate you cancelling, even if disappointed. i have immune probs & anytmie someone cancels b/c sick, it may suck, but a relief that i don't have to worry about prolonged immune-weirdness/sickness after being around someone who's sick. & it's v. understandable anyway, sucks for you to feel awful.

it's so great to have good female friends!

JuliaA, Saturday, 4 April 2015 18:20 (nine years ago) link

Yeah the older I get the less I tolerate people giving me colds if it's avoidable :)

kinder, Saturday, 4 April 2015 20:41 (nine years ago) link

Yeah, she was totally cool with it. I'm silly. :)

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Sunday, 5 April 2015 12:34 (nine years ago) link

i just finally started watching broad city and i love it so much but if i had read the ilx thread on it before watching it i would never have watched it. what is it about dudes talking about tv shows and them totally ruining everything? like 99.9% of the posts are just dudes being ruinous. let's analyze this until it's bad.

computer champion (harbl), Monday, 13 April 2015 00:49 (nine years ago) link

loool otm

also see p much every ilx tv thread. comedy in particular seems to bring out the worst in 'ilx dude boring analysis'

difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 13 April 2015 00:57 (nine years ago) link

Haaaaa yes. I've learned it's unwise to read ILX threads about anything I actually like.

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Monday, 13 April 2015 02:10 (nine years ago) link

how do yall feel about cutting ties with friends whose friendship or lack thereof consistently makes you feel bad vs ... the alternative, "working on it," agreeing to consistently feeling bad?

related: do you think its natural to gain a new batch of friends in your late 20s/30s that replaces your teenage/early 20s friends? feeling weird cause im only still friends with like 5 people from that era of my life. mostly as a conscious decision of mine (one or two made decisions of their own that i respect, and wasnt feeling those friendships anyway).

there is one friendship from that time that i didnt really cut ties with, but just said "you make me feel like garbage and i feel like you never have my back when someone is treating me like shit" and he was just like "youre right and im sorry", but i feel like the friendship ended after that came out. the lines of communication are open though. i'm just really lamenting the loss of that one today, because we were v close friends. but there's the flipside that's like...he was kind of a jerk, and i have much better friends now. but the memories are killing me. the good ones and the bad ones.

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Monday, 13 April 2015 16:31 (nine years ago) link

also just can i acknowledge that we talked about basically exactly this a month ago

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Monday, 13 April 2015 16:32 (nine years ago) link

related: do you think its natural to gain a new batch of friends in your late 20s/30s that replaces your teenage/early 20s friends?

I basically dumped every single person from home when I went to college, and then again when I moved to NYC, and I've only ever regretted it w/r/t maybe like 3 people total. Lots of those friendships were matters of survival, based on being slightly more similar to each other than the horrible ppl around us, but they had their time and served their purpose and then people moved on. Fine w me.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Monday, 13 April 2015 16:37 (nine years ago) link

i am totally for cutting ties with anyone that causes bad feelings. life is too short, we all have our own personal bad shit in our own heads to deal with, who needs that crap from other people??

i'm facebook friends with the 6 other girls i was tight with in highschool, but only 3 of them are still really my actual friends. we all grew up to be very different people from the kids we were, and that profoundly changed the intimacy we all once had. although my bff from that group is my bff.

just1n3, Monday, 13 April 2015 17:17 (nine years ago) link

related: do you think its natural to gain a new batch of friends in your late 20s/30s that replaces your teenage/early 20s friends? feeling weird cause im only still friends with like 5 people from that era of my life. mostly as a conscious decision of mine (one or two made decisions of their own that i respect, and wasnt feeling those friendships anyway).

"natural" is a weird word, but it's common. esp if something about you or your lifestyle or your general worldview changes dramatically during that time, and you no longer have anything fundamental in common with those people. i am still close (emotionally, not geographically) with my friends from hs and college and pretty much every era of my life, but i'm also still basically the same person, and those are the people who know me best. i don't jibjab/chitchat with them much because we don't have a lot in common in terms of our interests/the way we spend our time, but as someone without siblings, those ppl are my siblings. they have known me the longest, and we love each other the way i'm told that siblings do. not that i would know, but it seems easier to get rid of/grow away from friends when you have siblings you're close to. my old friends are the people who knew me when i was young. i can't say goodbye to them without saying goodbye to the only people who know my whole story and still like me. i really appreciate that about old friends.

in new friend news, my new friend and i have been hanging out regularly and i am taking special care not to annoy her.

groundless round (La Lechera), Monday, 13 April 2015 19:18 (nine years ago) link

i should say, siblings or family (cousins, etc)

groundless round (La Lechera), Monday, 13 April 2015 19:20 (nine years ago) link

yeah idek what i meant by natural. normal, or something that just tends to kinda happen.

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Monday, 13 April 2015 20:59 (nine years ago) link

I have spent the past 2 years kinda shedding away people who are hardcore partiers, or have too different a schedule than me, since I got a career where I am a role model-ish person who is tired by the end of the day. Not what I want but it just kinda happened due to lack of propinquity & shared interests.

I have a friend who is a severe flake & passive-aggressive as shit on social media. She has depression & anxiety, and so do I, so it was making me way mad when she would cancel basically WHEN we set things up, with some phony pretense. Like – you can be real with me! If u r depressed just say so. But I was also hating hanging w/her when we did. So I blocked her on fb to avoid too much drama & I am wishing I'da done it like a year ago.

pilate is my cogod (Crabbits), Tuesday, 14 April 2015 00:41 (nine years ago) link

I don't know where to put this so why not here if we are talking about old friendships.

I just found out a friend from high school writes paranormal romances!!

I also found out a college friend died, and if I am reading his obituary correctly, it sounds like suicide.

tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, 15 April 2015 01:45 (nine years ago) link

my old friends are the people who knew me when i was young.

This is what I appreciate about my relationship with my friend W, I don't have to explain certain parts of my history.

tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, 15 April 2015 01:47 (nine years ago) link

tr, I'm sorry about your college friend.

That's v. cool about the paranormal romance writer, though. Can you say who it is or the name of one of her books?

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Wednesday, 15 April 2015 02:04 (nine years ago) link

J3s Y0ung

tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, 15 April 2015 02:34 (nine years ago) link

I found her blog tonight while looking up Rainer Andreesen and Gypsy Rose Lee's old estate.

tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, 15 April 2015 02:36 (nine years ago) link

"Hey let me click on this about me section OH MY GODDD"

tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, 15 April 2015 02:37 (nine years ago) link

Ha, that's neat!

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Wednesday, 15 April 2015 02:52 (nine years ago) link

related: do you think its natural to gain a new batch of friends in your late 20s/30s that replaces your teenage/early 20s friends?

totally natural. I ran into a handful of people i was friends with in my early 20s at the NYE party I went to last year. It felt kinda symbolic to be celebrating the end of the year with people I hung with almost 20 years ago and people I hang with now. I'm also at a weird point where I'm re-evaluating who I want to spend time with vs. who I spend time with just because it's easy and familiar.

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Wednesday, 15 April 2015 22:02 (nine years ago) link

I wouldnt piss on the people I was bffs with in high school, if they were on fire. The point of then maturing in my 20s/30s was I realised how toxic every one of them had been to me, and I bailed like a base jumper.

I checked Snoops , and it is for real (Trayce), Wednesday, 15 April 2015 23:40 (nine years ago) link

(it prob helps I moved 900Kms away from home town at 21, too)

I checked Snoops , and it is for real (Trayce), Wednesday, 15 April 2015 23:41 (nine years ago) link

I have literally one friend I see regularly who I went to school with. My partner and his mattress are pretty old friends (to me) too. Other than that I just have a handful of other friends. Tbh I hardly see any of the ppl now I was hanging out with 5 or so years ago because they moved away but it's always great when we do meet (sadly fleetingly these days)

kinder, Thursday, 16 April 2015 12:59 (nine years ago) link

Can I just say it's a pleasure to see female characters portrayed as beautiful on tv in tight dresses with visible stomachs? It's such a pleasure that everyone's not supposed to be completely flat from hip to hip anymore. I realize this is, like, the tiniest improvement, but I'll take it.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Thursday, 16 April 2015 13:39 (nine years ago) link

Where are you seeing this?! Would watch.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Thursday, 16 April 2015 13:50 (nine years ago) link

Hi chixors, following along but not posting much why because family. Brother is in full meltdown mode, so I'm flying to CA today to help. That said, SARAHELL I will be in Oakland for at least a week, arriving tonight, staying at Courtyard Marriott Downtown Oak (which I can ill afford, along with last-minute cross-country plane tix). FAP? Please say yes otherwise I don't have much to look forward to for the next week or so.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Thursday, 16 April 2015 13:51 (nine years ago) link

I'm sorry, q. Energy power-up from this thread, we love ya.

xp At the moment it's the strawberry blonde secretary woman in Daredevil, but also the head badass in charge on How to Get Away With Murder, and I feel like those aren't the only times I've noticed it lately-ish, just bc it doesn't feel as surprising as it used to, to see an actual body under clothes (besides breasts).

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Thursday, 16 April 2015 14:01 (nine years ago) link

Also Abbi in Broad City, which is even more awesome because she basically wears the same body con dress whenever she does anything that requires nice clothes, which is refreshingly realistic.

q, that's rough. Love to you and the family.

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Thursday, 16 April 2015 14:45 (nine years ago) link

I keep meaning to post about friends and stuff because I have ~~thoughts~~ but for some reason I can't get it together to say what I need to say. I think it mostly boils down to: it's totally normal for friendships to evolve and change as we grow, and it is very good to end relationships with people who are harmful to you in some way (although see the cutting people out of your life thread for some tips on how to do that compassionately).

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Thursday, 16 April 2015 14:47 (nine years ago) link

"Also Abbi in Broad City, which is even more awesome because she basically wears the same body con dress whenever she does anything that requires nice clothes, which is refreshingly realistic."

If I spent $400 on a bangin bandage dress I'd wear it to everything too! :) Yeah, I did think of her as soon as I asked IO who she'd been referring to. I love those ladies so much.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Thursday, 16 April 2015 14:49 (nine years ago) link

I also like that she was going to return it, but never did and instead just wears the shit out of it. Me irl.

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Thursday, 16 April 2015 14:54 (nine years ago) link

Yes! I'd totally do the same.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Thursday, 16 April 2015 17:34 (nine years ago) link

quincie! totally down to FAP.

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Thursday, 16 April 2015 18:26 (nine years ago) link

Yay! And thx to all for good wishes. It really is a boost. Currently in mpls airport, which is SO NICE!

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Thursday, 16 April 2015 18:43 (nine years ago) link

I will message you my # on facebook.

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Thursday, 16 April 2015 18:50 (nine years ago) link

I'm getting a mammogram. Wooooooooooooooooo.

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Monday, 20 April 2015 17:19 (eight years ago) link

I got my first earlier this year. Gives new meaning to the phrase "tit in a wringer."

That said, I didn't find it painful at all or even particularly uncomfortable. Of course Your Boobs May Vary.

What I *did* find painful was the amount of Komen-branded pink shit all over the waiting room.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Monday, 20 April 2015 17:43 (eight years ago) link

Bleh. I'm not worried it will hurt. Just annoyed that my doctor doesn't embrace the looser guidelines because I don't feel like dealing with it.

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Monday, 20 April 2015 18:18 (eight years ago) link

i've never had one
feeling low as hell today but i think it'll pass
i think i'm just emotionally taxed from all the things going on in my general orbit -- work, fam, friends, you name it and there is a drama afoot. i'm not very good at dealing with that.

groundless round (La Lechera), Monday, 20 April 2015 19:15 (eight years ago) link

It's hard to shield yourself from drama when it's coming from all four corners. It's exhausting!

I realized I'm also not looking forward to the mammogram because I have to go to the same place where I went to get ultrasounds and stress tests when I was pregnant and 1) that is where I got the stressful news about the complication in my pregnancy that put me in the hospital for a month (and where I was admitted from on suspicion of preeclampsia twice (although the second time I literally ran away from the hospital so I could go home and finish some work and pack some clothes first)), so I've got a little mild PTSD associated with it (like typing that is making me breathe shallowly and feel a little tearful ugh) and 2) when last I was there (18 months ago!) it was just a huge, messy clusterfuck of a system and you had to wait forever and the lady at the front desk was a total crab and there were never enough chairs for the number of people who were waiting so yeah. Dumb.

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Monday, 20 April 2015 19:42 (eight years ago) link

not dumb at all. I would be exactly the same. places can really get to you.
crappy systems just make the whole thing ten times worse because I worry that no-one's doing anything properly and I have to be on the lookout in case something happens that means they've forgotten my appointment or not told me to bring something I need or or or

kinder, Monday, 20 April 2015 19:52 (eight years ago) link

I worry that no-one's doing anything properly and I have to be on the lookout in case something happens that means they've forgotten my appointment or not told me to bring something I need or or or

OMG YES yesssssssssss and that triggers my personal brand of anxiety which basically takes the form of "my incessant worry is what is holding everything together and if I stop everybody will die" so like, if I'm not keeping an eye on the women's imaging center, I will die of breast cancer. Or something.

I think I need a glass of wine.

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Monday, 20 April 2015 19:55 (eight years ago) link

two weeks pass...

My life has hit levels of strange I don't really understand lately.

The Hauntology of Celebrity (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 6 May 2015 07:04 (eight years ago) link

Good strange or at least interesting strange?

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Wednesday, 6 May 2015 11:07 (eight years ago) link

Well, at first something happened that was very bad and upsetting, but then I closed the door on that very firmly and locked it. I am not doing other people's ~drama~ any more, the end.

But then another quite strange and entirely unrandom door opened when I least expected it and it is silly and frivolous and not-real-life at all, but I don't care, I am enjoying it even if I feel a bit like Big Bird talking to Mr Snuffleupagus right now?

The Hauntology of Celebrity (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 6 May 2015 19:12 (eight years ago) link

it is a nice feeling, enjoy it while it lasts

Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Wednesday, 6 May 2015 19:24 (eight years ago) link

Agreed! and good for you for closing the door on other people's drama.

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Wednesday, 6 May 2015 19:40 (eight years ago) link

he should still be banished, though. To my vagina.

The Hauntology of Celebrity (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 6 May 2015 20:22 (eight years ago) link

(I did not say that! Honest!)

The Hauntology of Celebrity (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 6 May 2015 20:23 (eight years ago) link

OK I am tired of being obtuse and evasive and explaining in such ridiculously guarded terms. What has happened is this:

There is an artist, who I have spent quite some time mocking, on ILX and elsewhere. Earlier this year, starting almost as a joke, but turning into something else as it went along, I wrote a very odd, twisted, extremely meta piece of Fan Fiction in which this person crashed through the fourth wall and started taking me, the author, to task for the mockery, the fan fiction, degenerating into a ranting philosophical debate on the nature of fandom, celebrity and fan-idol interactions and who owes whom what. Like I said, it's a very strange story. But in the story (which really did my head in to write) argument turned to flirtation, flirtation turned to attraction, irritation turned to coffee and/or fucking in the morning. At the end, I felt like I'd exorcised something and fans who read it agreed it was bizarre but compelling.

In some strange coincidence, the same week I published the last chapter, the artist in question, after a long absence from public life, restarted his career, joined social media. I followed him, I mean, why not. I tweeted a couple of banal "good luck with your new career" responses because I was quite certain he wasn't tweeting back at anyone, sent him a link he might be interested in.

Reader, he followed me back. We started conversing. He turned out not to be not at all as I thought - or at least self-aware of his own ridiculous arrogance - in fact quite funny and charming. This is nothing exceptionally extraordinary; celebrities are human beings too. It's just doing my head in a bit, even as its pleasurable and a bit flattering.

Look, I KNOW that this is not some 21st Century Meet-Cute. It's unlikely he sees me as anything but a fan, or worse, a groupie. I know, intellectually, that he's in a bit of an odd place and starting a new career mid-life is a huge step into the unknown and he is probably flattered and amused and reassured by the attention of a fangirl with a pigtail-pulling crush. This is NOT the plot of fan fiction coming to life.

But it is, still, doing my head in and making me as giddy as a Beiberite all at the same time.

Apologies for length. Normally I'd just vent about this on social media but that's impossible right now for obvious reasons.

The Hauntology of Celebrity (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 7 May 2015 06:22 (eight years ago) link

whoaaaaaa.

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Thursday, 7 May 2015 21:29 (eight years ago) link

tbh: its kind of making ME giddy and i have nothing to do with it.

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Thursday, 7 May 2015 21:29 (eight years ago) link

Yeah, it's really like... WHEEEEE and I'm just enjoying it.

On the downside, no matter how much I've been trying to avoid, block, contain drama, my stalker situation appears to be escalating. To the point where they are now posting my emails all over Tumblr and screen capping decades-old shit from ILX to try to prove ... I don't know what. That I'm a creepy weirdo with long-running mental health issues and confusion about my sexuality and gender?

This would be kinda scary if I hadn't been through this 2 or 3 times before over the past couple of decades. I'm tired of this. I'm really deeply tired of this.

I don't really know if I should just continue to ignore it the best I can, or if I should be screen-capping this stuff myself, and going to the police - well, police are pretty useless in these kinds of situations, but perhaps seeking legal advice.

I know you girls have a lot of collective knowledge, but do any of you have (especially UK relevant) advice (beyond "read The Gift of Fear and Captain Awkward") about how to handle this kind of thing? "Ignore and block" is not doing a great job of working.

The Hauntology of Celebrity (Branwell with an N), Saturday, 9 May 2015 11:42 (eight years ago) link

Actually, you know what?

No.

This person has had enough of my time and my attention and my psychic energy, and this is just yet one more blatant grasp for attention. I'm done. I'm really done. I'm not giving them the oxygen of even being afraid of them. Enough.

Back to taking my giddy pleasures where I find them: A POP STAR FOLLOWED ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA!!! A POP STAR FOLLOWED MEEEEEE!!! ON SOCIAL MEEEEEDIA!!!

(He blinded ME! With Science!)

The Hauntology of Celebrity (Branwell with an N), Saturday, 9 May 2015 12:20 (eight years ago) link

Phew I don't have any advice but I'm sorry you're dealing with that.

The pop star is a delightful diversion though.

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Saturday, 9 May 2015 12:23 (eight years ago) link

If someone is lying and spreading malicious gossip about you (even without a side order of stalking) I think if you try to address the lies, it gives the fabrications a tissue of plausibility? Isn't it better to prove yourself with actions rather than words, walk away, refuse to engage and rise above it?

But anyway. Distract me with pop stars! Tell me about your pop star crushes, if you ever interacted with them (even just sending teenage fanmail) and how embarrassing / giddy-making it all is.

The Hauntology of Celebrity (Branwell with an N), Saturday, 9 May 2015 13:47 (eight years ago) link

I've had a crush on Council Member Stephen Levin for like two years but he just got engaged apparently so I guess he wasn't actually smiling at me from the front of the room while I stared deeply into his eyes.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Saturday, 9 May 2015 13:59 (eight years ago) link

http://www.greenpointnews.com/images/6329.jpg

His politics are excellent.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Saturday, 9 May 2015 14:00 (eight years ago) link

My #1 pop star crush is Thomas Dutronc. My French skills are so bad that I am just excited when I can understand his tweets.

tokyo rosemary, Sunday, 10 May 2015 01:29 (eight years ago) link

Branwell, Zoe Quinn (the person libelled in the weird origin of gamergate) started a good site about protecting your ish from online creepers:
http://www.crashoverridenetwork.com/
and
free advice at http://crashoverridenetwork.tumblr.com/

pilate is my cogod (Crabbits), Monday, 11 May 2015 01:16 (eight years ago) link

whoever the fuck is spending their time doing that should feel petty & ashamed, and find something useful to do

pilate is my cogod (Crabbits), Monday, 11 May 2015 01:18 (eight years ago) link

Oh thank you Crabbits! That's actually really helpful.

The website perhaps not so much (it seems to be more about dedicated gamergate type campaigns, when this is honestly just one disgruntled person who has decided that the best way to handle a breakup they are unhappy about is to respond to a 3-week relationship with four months of escalating creeping, stalking, then outright doxxing) but the Tumblr looks like it has some invaluable resources!

I can certainly understand being hurt and upset that someone doesn't want to be in a relationship with you, but this has got to a point where, as my best friend put it "they are just writing fan fiction about you and trying to persuade other people to believe it" but at least this latest bout has produced hard, tangible, screengrabbable evidence when I say "this person has been creeping me out" of what, exactly I am talking about.

There's a part of me that just wants to ask "WHY?" I'm not a celebrity, I'm not even interesting or good-looking, yet this is now at least the third time in my life that I've been the focus of something like this. But there is no "why" answer; it's about them and not necessarily about me. Bad luck.

I'm faced with two ways of interpreting someone acting like this:

1) they are deliberately lying and misrepresenting events in order to manipulate people into attracting sympathy and attention. (Which is gross and frightening, but kinda pathetic really if you think about it)
2) they actually believe the things they are putting out there, and this is some kind of delusional thinking pattern (in which case pity is more the correct reaction)

I'm just deeply, deeply tired of this, and would really prefer that it stop.

But in the meantime, keep the crushes coming, girls. That is one fine-looking man, in orbit!

The Hauntology of Celebrity (Branwell with an N), Monday, 11 May 2015 04:45 (eight years ago) link

stalking really makes me see red
i'm sorry this is happening to you -- it's a type of violation that is so pernicious that we don't have the right words to describe it. "creepy" not doing the heavy lifting required.

Florianne Fracke (La Lechera), Monday, 11 May 2015 13:38 (eight years ago) link

beyond creepy, indeed. and your case sounds really extreme, Branwell--so sorry you're going thru that.

ugh i was (badly) following google instructions to block a dude on gchat and accidentally invited him to chat. nononooooo.

so now can't sleep b/c this makes me madly nervous. never want anything to do with that dude ever ever everrrrr again and in all my brilliance i fucking accidentally invited him to chat, gdi.

i lack interesting crushes but have some pics of pretty men:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CCPMmeiUMAAr6Qj.png
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CCPMl_aUAAArmC0.png

JuliaA, Wednesday, 13 May 2015 05:42 (eight years ago) link

big pics, but oh so pretty.

idk if this will post, or post a link
https://pbs.twimg.com/tweet_video/B5k3y8VCAAAhfzz.mp4

JuliaA, Wednesday, 13 May 2015 05:47 (eight years ago) link

Argh, argh, argh, that is like some kind of nightmare - trying to block someone and sending them a request instead? I hope you DID manage to block them after that, so at least if they try to respond, they won't be able to!

(Tumblr did that to me once - on the mobile app, if you click on the wrong part of the screen, it follows (or more usually unfollows) someone whose posts you're looking at / have been reblogged. It's annoying when it unfollows your friends, and you have to send them an "I don't hate you, it was the mobile app!" message to apologise. But once it somehow managed to follow someone who absolutely loathes me and hates my guts (I had the nerve to disagree with her about some minor aspect of fandom, which is of course, an unforgivable sin on Tumblr!) and I suddenly get this notification "You have just followed Person-Who-Hates-Your-Guts" and I was like WWAAAAHHHHTT *delete delete delete*. But that was just embarrassing, not actually scary or anything.)

I have now actually informally spoken to An Investigator about the situation. (Which was weird as hell, in and of itself - there are aspects of my life that I don't like explaining to anyone, and to discuss them, even informally, like this, is a scary thing to do, e.g. I am not 'out' about my gender/sexuality at work or anything. And having to explain what 'fan fiction' or 'Tumblr' is - at least this Investigator was pretty savvy since they deal with internet nasties for a living.) But it is kind of a relief, when you're almost gaslighting yourself, trying to downplay what's going on, and telling yourself "oh, you're overreacting" and "if you just don't look at their drama or speak to them, they'll get bored and stop" - to speak to an expert who looks at the situation and says "Nope, you were right to come to us, you have every right to feel scared, this stuff is clearly against the terms of service of the website they're using, if you want to pursue this we can help you put together a case."

So on that level, it's reassuring to know that I'm not crazy and I'm not overreacting. But on another level... I don't want to go through this shit. I just want it to stop.

I mean, I'm scared to even talk about this shit on ILX because from their doxing post it's quite clear that they know of the existence of ILX and how to use the search function. And even for me to say something like "This person is making me uncomfortable and I'm scared by what they are doing" is to invite another round of THE TERRIFYING TOXIC TRUTH ABOUT THE PERSON I AM STALKING BECAUSE THEY DID NOT WANT TO BE IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH ME blogging. But, y'know, my saying something / ignoring it for months doesn't seem to make a difference to stopping this.

Really, I just want it to stop.

Now I am going for a walk in the sunshine and maybe try to have coffee with a friend. (In this thread's longrunning "female friends" theme, I have scheduled biweekly coffee catch-ups with a London gal-pal, so this is a v v good thing going forward in my life.)

The Hauntology of Celebrity (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 13 May 2015 07:22 (eight years ago) link

glad you spoke to the Investigator & got some validation. self-gaslighting feels so awful.

seems pretty universal in these situations to be overwhelmed & emotionally flailing and --how do you sleep? how do you cope? how do you get thru the day with all this fearful, frantic emotional shit whirling thru yr head? ugh. DNW. of course.

i so wish this thread wasn't public. but i'm so glad we have it.

a walk in the sunshine & coffee with a friend sound great.

JuliaA, Wednesday, 13 May 2015 13:54 (eight years ago) link

I wish I knew how to deal with the emotional shit -- tbh this convo has been really triggering for me, even after decades. The sensation of being watched, the self-consciousness (which I have worked hard to shed!) creep back slowly but insidiously. I wish I knew what to say that would help.

Florianne Fracke (La Lechera), Wednesday, 13 May 2015 14:14 (eight years ago) link

Btw I'm not complaining -- I didn't realize my mind would spiral once I started thinking about it. Such is the insidious nature of this thing!

Florianne Fracke (La Lechera), Wednesday, 13 May 2015 14:23 (eight years ago) link

Not to disregard any of the important things on this thread, but I just want to acknowledge that the handsome man that Julia posted is very very handsome.

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Wednesday, 13 May 2015 15:00 (eight years ago) link

his smile is AMAZING damn

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Wednesday, 13 May 2015 15:02 (eight years ago) link

super insidious ick ick ick.

very very handsome--ikr? xp yes.

JuliaA, Wednesday, 13 May 2015 15:09 (eight years ago) link

I am so, so sorry, LL. I did think, when bringing this up, that I should have put some kind of content warning on it, and I am sorry that this brought up your own experiences.

I mean, I know, from experience, how deep down this kind of stuff gets into you. And I think that's part of the reason I was telling myself this wasn't such a big deal or anything. Because I *know*, from having gone though something like this before, how it warps your perceptions for the rest of your life. Like, I am aware that this is one of the most prevalent reasons why I have such a negative reaction to the little, low-level ~researching your life~ type creeping on the internet. Because it brings back the big scary stuff.

Oh, I don't want to talk about this any more. I typed out a ton of details, but changed my mind about posting it because of that specific sensation of feeling watched. Thank you for listening. Thank you for talking. Thank you for not thinking I'm crazy. Thank you for sharing what I know to be awful feelings.

Now on with the handsomeness!

The Hauntology of Celebrity (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 13 May 2015 15:17 (eight years ago) link

im sorry for the abrupt subject change
so upset rn

i was able to see a doctor for cheap while i was in college, went to him with symptoms that have steadily gotten worse since. he gave me many tests and told me i probably have lupus (maybe MCTD) but obv i need to see a rheumatologist. like i said, things have gotten worse since. i have to plan that at least one day a month i can't do anything but stay in bed.

so i've been searching for a rheumatologist in an increasingly panicked way and coming up with nothing as my mental and physical health deteriorates. how MEAN people in the medical industry turn when they find out you're poor. just hung up the phone with someone and burst into tears at work

i just feel so helpless and scared! im tired of worrying what's happening to my body and feeling like my arms and legs are rotting off of my body or something. im tired of waking up in the night thinking i can't breathe or that i'm having a stroke or a heart attack. and then the added bonus that getting emotionally upset causes weird flare-ups of pain and other symptoms.

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 13 May 2015 15:21 (eight years ago) link

to make up for my admittedly self-indulgent post:

https://cdn1.cdnme.se/cdn/6-1/2127762/images/2011/600full-alain-delon-9_163398758.jpg

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 13 May 2015 15:23 (eight years ago) link

Oh god Roxy that's awful. I wish I knew how to negotiate the US medical system. (If you weren't already married, I'd tell you to come to the UK and gay-marry me so you could be treated on the NHS while we still have one.)

I am so so sorry, that is so shit, and I just really really hope that you find someone or something to make it better.

The Hauntology of Celebrity (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 13 May 2015 15:24 (eight years ago) link

well the generous offer of gay english marriage is atm literally my only healthcare option so thanks! lol

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 13 May 2015 15:25 (eight years ago) link

i feel like its going to be ok, i just had to throw a fit for a min tbh

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 13 May 2015 15:26 (eight years ago) link

Let me try to distract you with this plethora of problematic pulchritude:

http://41.media.tumblr.com/fab5686990e3a557958626c178d1e5c8/tumblr_no98x6N4a61rngx6zo1_400.jpg

The Hauntology of Celebrity (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 13 May 2015 15:27 (eight years ago) link

oh roxy that is awful.

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Wednesday, 13 May 2015 15:47 (eight years ago) link

roxy--ugggh so sorry you're going thru healthshit.

medical people are awful with:

-$ issues, omfg
-chronic not-well-understood debilitating stuff (bonus points if it mainly happens to women, like autoimmune ish & similar)
-anything mental health in addition to physical chronic stuff because obv yr just (just!) depressed, little lady

and just finding a specialist in the 1st place...ugh. i live this stuff (disabled w/CFS/ME) & wish i had something more helpful to say-feel free to email me for commiseration/venting if you need.

JuliaA, Wednesday, 13 May 2015 17:42 (eight years ago) link

roxy -- is this near enough that you could get to them? idk about the religious angle of these ppl but they seem like they might help

http://www.stsampsonclinic.com
recommended here: http://www.lupus.org/midsouth/pages/find-help

chronic pain is no joke, thinking good thoughts for u

difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 13 May 2015 18:32 (eight years ago) link

Yes indeed. Internet hugs and good thoughts to rox and julia.

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Wednesday, 13 May 2015 18:50 (eight years ago) link

god roxy, deep sympathy; wish i had something helpful to say

and to branwell too

drash, Wednesday, 13 May 2015 18:59 (eight years ago) link

omg thanks for that link, veg. its a couple of hours away from me which is doable imo, esp since my options in my own town are 0.

thanks for the emotional support yall

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Thursday, 14 May 2015 15:51 (eight years ago) link

omg yay, i hope they can help u!

difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 14 May 2015 16:08 (eight years ago) link

http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/05/controversial-conversations/
^^I really liked this – "5 Questions to Help You Know When to Pick Your Battles in Controversial Conversations"

he sounds like a parrot eating a carrot (Crabbits), Tuesday, 19 May 2015 00:43 (eight years ago) link

that is otm and consistent with my strategy. i don't work in a very sexist workplace but there is just one guy (i have told him he is sexist where it is appropriate to do so and he doesn't get mad) who for example one day at lunch was saying how his daughter's boyfriend asked him about marrying her and everyone was like oh! how great! and this is one issue that just pushes my buttons so i just stuck to my 5 step plan: 1. remain quiet 2. think of line in tommy boy where richard says "you know what? don't. not here. not now." 3. text someone i trust to complain about this 4. receive sympathetic "ugh" text 5. leave room inconspicuously

computer champion (harbl), Tuesday, 19 May 2015 01:09 (eight years ago) link

That is an excellent post you linked Crabbits, and I found it very helpful. Learning when to walk away from an argument has been one of the hardest lessons of the past 5 years, but I'm getting better at it.

The Hauntology of Celebrity (Branwell with an N), Saturday, 23 May 2015 06:11 (eight years ago) link

Now I need help or suggestions or just to vent to a sympathetic crew, or something.

The Stalker Situation detailed above. This just seems to drag on endlessly, and nothing seems to move. Obviously, this is going to be very triggery for some of you, so please make sure you're in a place to read this.

I made An Official Complaint to Tumblr, because the doxing post very clearly violated several of their terms of service (with regards to harassment, doxing, using Tumblr to circumvent people who have blocked you). I explained that this was someone I had formerly been in a romantic relationship with, who refused to accept the breakup. Tumblr came back refusing to deal with it, classing it as "slander" and saying they didn't have to take down slander without a court order. Their next helpful suggestion was to use email to try to contact the owner of the blog - like WAY TO MISS THE FUCKING POINT - even the UK Police insist that when you are dealing with a stalker, the last thing you should ever, EVER do is try to contact them directly. Giving them the desired contact is just reinforcing that increasingly escalating antics are the way to get you to answer on the 51st ring.

I tried a couple of other civil options, but both of them told me to go to the police, report it, and get a Crime Reference Number. (This is the UK, nothing here happens without a Reference Number.) So I called 101, expecting to be laughed off the phone. But no, I was actually surprised and heartened, by their initial reaction, at how seriously they took it. That they correctly classed it as "Domestic Violence" (which is their catch-all term for crimes committed within the context of a romantic or family relationship, whether violent or not) and had a procedure to follow, and a specific set of questions to ask. I was surprised that they did at least appear to show sensitivity both towards DV issues, and towards LGBT issues. That was very heartening.

So they took a statement over the phone, then sent two police officers round to interview me and collect evidence. (I had to print out the emails and the screen grabs, to give to them - I mean, talk about invasive, having to print out both ... *love letters* and this delusional screed, to give into public evidence.) They were more up on the DV stuff than the technology (one of them confessed he had to google "doxing" in the car over.) But I have to say that it was hugely helpful to me, both to have them take it seriously, and also to have them go through the emails, screen grabs, evidence, with a professional eye, and inform me "No, you are absolutely correct, there is a clear evidence trail, this person is stalking, and it looks like they are escalating." The thing that chilled me was when one of them looked at me and said "You realise you are probably not the first person they have done this to, and I guarantee you, you won't be the last." They were very clear that they had more than enough evidence, and if the perp lived in the UK, they would send a letter or a police officer round stating "If you attempt to contact this person again, we will arrest you."

The problem is, this person does not live in the UK. And here we run into the problem of Jurisdiction. UK Police do not have the jurisdiction to send a restraining order to someone who lives in California. (They stated that the only way they could legally do that would be to extradite this person to the UK, at which my eyes grew huge with fear, and I almost shouted "the LAST thing I want is this person anywhere near me!") If he turns up in the UK, they can arrest him. (It's really comforting, isn't it, knowing that if I turn up dead, they'll take action!) But other than that, the case is just caught in this legal limbo.

They advised me to have one more go at Tumblr, quoting the Crime Reference Number and the police investigation, but I think Tumblr have made it perfectly clear they have no intention of enforcing their own terms of service. I don't want to have to quit Tumblr because of the actions of one little creep who cannot accept a break-up, but if they won't enforce their own terms of service, it doesn't look like I have much choice.

(Other options: my father does live in California, and I'm not sure if he could open a complaint on his daughter's behalf, in the actual state where the perp resides. But American police scare the *shit* out of me. And JFC, I just want this to end, not to drag it off into another international version.)

Or... do I let this go, under the (perhaps mistaken) assumption that this creepy little stalker has had their jollies through driving me off their little ~Kingdom of Tumblr~ and will now move their attention on to someone else? It's just so fucking frustrating, when you do everything by the books, you follow the procedures of what you're supposed to do... and yet the end result is absolutely fuck-all. What do I do, girls? What do I do now?

The Hauntology of Celebrity (Branwell with an N), Saturday, 23 May 2015 06:48 (eight years ago) link

On my phone so can't post properly but stalker stuff is so awful. Impressed that the police actually did something about it, however helpful or not it may turn out to be

kinder, Saturday, 23 May 2015 17:39 (eight years ago) link

I don't have any advice, Branwell. The only thing I can think of that sort of works is large-scale tumblr shaming where someone with a healthy following makes their sitch very public and encourages it to go viral to pressure tumblr to react or at to at least register public disapproval that goes into the record of how they've treated similar cases over time.

From what you've expressed though I don't think that's a road you'd want to go down, just ramping up the pressure for an unknown duration.

Frankly I'm shocked that the police were kind of great, and I mean great in the sense of actually DOING THEIR JOB without shaming or belittling you, which says something about what a low bar that is.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Saturday, 23 May 2015 18:01 (eight years ago) link

srsly so awful but i'm glad that you're dedicated to taking the necessary steps. seems like a turning point so long as the authorities are being helpful.

wish i had more to say but honestly i can't think of a single thing to say that is helpful or constructive in any way
well, i guess my only advice is to be extremely cautious going forward when developing emotional relationships with people you don't know very well. i mean, that is stupid advice but it's weird how easy it is to have an illusory closeness. i'm extremely wary of this in general. just like i instinctively back away from anyone who tries to get too close to me too quickly.

Florianne Fracke (La Lechera), Saturday, 23 May 2015 18:20 (eight years ago) link

pls note that isn't to say that i believe it was your mistake for getting involved with this person (obviously it is not)

Florianne Fracke (La Lechera), Saturday, 23 May 2015 18:24 (eight years ago) link

fuck. so sorry you're going thru this hell.

i wish i had helpful advice or something, but it sounds like you've done everything you realistically could. (further options sound like they'd be causing way more stress & not worth it)

glad the police officers were validating about the trauma of it all, at least--it makes such a difference to have others take it seriously.

JuliaA, Saturday, 23 May 2015 18:44 (eight years ago) link

Thanks for the support, girls. It really means a huge amount to me to have this stuff believed, and not belittled or shamed or "you're over-reacting".

And yeah, I was pleasantly surprised by the PC's approach and attitude.

Without getting into too much victim-shaming-y thinking, LL, I normally *am* incredibly careful about who I develop emotional relationships with. I am aware of the warping and projection effect of the Internet in creating and sustaining the illusion of intimacy that just isn't there. It wasn't a quick thing, it wasn't an 'out of nowhere' thing, it was someone who had been pursuing me for *months*, who had been showering me with attention and likes and dozens and dozens and dozens of comments. Of course it was flattering! But it escalated to romance at a point where I was quite low, and very emotionally vulnerable - it was over Christmas. I always get incredibly depressed around that time of year, I was very lonely because I had two weeks off work, so I'd go for days without speaking to another human being, except online. Loneliness and that kind of isolation has a way of twisting you. Of making you prepared to accept situations you would never normally even contemplate. I'm not excusing or justifying my decision in getting involved in that relationship - I am an adult, and am capable of making life choices, even ones that turn out to be poor ones.

But I guess the moral of the story is, that if someone you have never met is complimenting you that much and pursuing you that hard, it is not actually about you. It is about some weird fantasy that they have built up in their head. And the fantasy of 'this is the most perfect romantic partner in the world' can just as easily turn into the fantasy of 'this is an evil heart-wrecking monster who must be publicly shamed and doxed for the crime of not wanting to be with me.'

I don't have any advice, Branwell. The only thing I can think of that sort of works is large-scale tumblr shaming where someone with a healthy following makes their sitch very public and encourages it to go viral to pressure tumblr to react or at to at least register public disapproval that goes into the record of how they've treated similar cases over time.

^^^I mean, this, this is not something I would NOT do, because, given this person has about 1000 more followers than I do, it's likely in their twisted logic that this is what they thought they were doing to me. Of course I've had revenge fantasies - 1) publishing the complete correspondence between us, not just the highly edited one side - because that contains a hell of a lot more stuff that *they* would not want made public, than stuff I wouldn't. 2) just presenting the Tumblr complaint and the police report without comment on a blog titled GovernmentNameIsAStalker.blogplatform.com and tagging it and letting SEO take over. (Have to thank Carlos for putting that idea in my head.)

But what would those things prove? That I'm no better than them. This is not coming from a desire for justice, it's coming from a place of wanting revenge. This is not a valid or justifiable motive. What would this accomplish? Probably set off another round of doxing and stalking and escalation. What is it I actually want? I just want it to stop, I just want them to leave me alone. I can only hope that, having accomplished their goal of driving me off Tumblr (because apparently, seeing reblogs of a person you are currently stalking is "triggering"? OK...) that they will finally leave me the fuck alone.

The Hauntology of Celebrity (Branwell with an N), Sunday, 24 May 2015 07:33 (eight years ago) link

...and this is another thought for another day, but this is something that I have been giving a lot of thought over the past few days, and has been troubling me, about the kind of ~Tumblr-isation~ of Social Justice language.

I mean, I know that this is just one vindictive individual, with a specific malicious intent, and is not indicative of the way a group of people use or don't use language and social media.

But it's this thing, the degrading of social justice language. Listen, I *know* that it hurts to be dumped. I know that it is an almost physiological pain, and heart-rate response, when you see someone who has broken your heart and destroyed your romantic dreams. Crushes are called crushes because they hurt. It's upsetting. But to take that set of emotions (being upset, being disappointed, being heartbroken) and assign the very specific PTSD language of "triggering" to it; that is a gross misuse of language, and I find it grotesque. (Even outside of the context of: this is a person who is actually committing a reported crime against me.)

I mean, this is the whole argument of the ~Creepy Liberalism~ crew, and people who fight against trigger warnings, etc. And here this person, through using this language in this way, is just handing them ammunition, that "Triggered" isn't a real thing, it's just a synonym for "upset" or "outraged" or "hurt". Is this really how language has degraded, that it's the natural course of language, that terms that originally meant something specific, are degraded into meaninglessness.

But this is just a minor footnote and kind of a sigh of frustration with the whole world of Tumblr, really.

The Hauntology of Celebrity (Branwell with an N), Sunday, 24 May 2015 07:50 (eight years ago) link

PS I didn't mean it to be a tactic again the stalker, I meant as a tactic to bring others' attn to tumblr failing to protect targeted users, not living up to their agreements to not allow users to do harm, whatever. I'm not even sure exactly what those agreements are, just that every few months they're making some other kind of statement about adjusting their privacy settings bc of something. But yeah that's not at all what you need to get out of this, which is just peace & quiet & not being fucking doxed/stalked.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Sunday, 24 May 2015 07:58 (eight years ago) link

Ugh, double negative: "I mean, this, this is not something I would NOT do" = "this is not something I would do".

But yeah, you get it. Taking the actions required to apply pressure to Tumblr to apply their own terms of service would involve keeping up a level of activity that would most likely expose me to way more stalking, doxing, unpleasant activity. When I'm sorry to be such a selfish wimp, but in this situation, my primary motive is "protect myself and stop the harassment" rather than "change a monolithic corporation owned and run by dudebros who are far more statistically likely to be harassers than be exposed to harassers."

The Hauntology of Celebrity (Branwell with an N), Sunday, 24 May 2015 08:04 (eight years ago) link

I mean, "we recommend contacting your stalker" as their *official* recommended line of recourse just shows how far they are from grasping the problems.

The Hauntology of Celebrity (Branwell with an N), Sunday, 24 May 2015 08:05 (eight years ago) link

two weeks pass...

My olsest friend just had a miscarriage. And sent me a picture. I find this stuff fascinating and even I was like oh my fucking God is that . . . Yes. Yes it is. I have know her for 30 years but woah.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Wednesday, 10 June 2015 00:26 (eight years ago) link

O_o

difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 10 June 2015 00:38 (eight years ago) link

why would she...

wow

difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 10 June 2015 00:39 (eight years ago) link

How far along was she?

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Wednesday, 10 June 2015 00:57 (eight years ago) link

She was like "I know this is graphic but . . . ". I mean I guess she knows that I'm
Not easily phased but she could have texted me first and given me a heads up.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Wednesday, 10 June 2015 00:58 (eight years ago) link

Six weeks. It was v v small but you can absolutely see a tiny little sac with something in it. It's pretty amazing - nature. I think she also wanted confirmation that that was what she thought it was but it was pretty undeniable even in a texted picture. She's had a doc appt anyway tomorrow so I told her to keep it and go in case there's anything they need to do. :(

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Wednesday, 10 June 2015 01:00 (eight years ago) link

Keep the appointment, I mean.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Wednesday, 10 June 2015 01:01 (eight years ago) link

Whew. That's when I miscarried the pregnancy before Ivy. I definitely knew when I passed the "products of conception" as my robot infertility doc called it even though it's just an egg sac w/ a tiny blurb in it.

(I was actually pretty grateful for robot doc's brusque manner at that point so no shade.)

I hope your friend is okay. Early miscarriages are easier but they still fucking suck.

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Wednesday, 10 June 2015 01:08 (eight years ago) link

And yeah she needs to go in and make sure it's all out. :( It's tough.

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Wednesday, 10 June 2015 01:09 (eight years ago) link

Yeah, that's what I thought. I am glad she wasn't further along but I'm sure it's insanely hard regardless. She's with her boyfriend now and I'm going to talk to her tomorrow. She was so excited but had only told three people since it was so early which is good because having to tell a lot of people must be very hard and make you sort of relive it. :( My college boyfriend became a father today and these two things are giving me strange "circle
of life, man" feelings. It's strange and amazing and horrible sad and wonderful all at once.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Wednesday, 10 June 2015 01:18 (eight years ago) link

Life, that is.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Wednesday, 10 June 2015 01:18 (eight years ago) link

And how.

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Wednesday, 10 June 2015 01:23 (eight years ago) link

Yeah, horrifying and grotesque and amazing all at the same time. The sense that you're seeing something nature really didn't intend anyone to see. :-/

(I must admit, when I had my reproductive disaster, I totally looked. I wanted to see. It didn't even look remotely human, but I was just curious, and also wanting to know. I'm quite grateful that smartphones didn't exist back then because I probably would have been the arsehole that emailed photos as casually as other people email sonograms or whatever.)

I don't think it's inherently more gross than any other medical process. It's just that reproductive processes have such a veil of shame and Thou Shalt Not Talk About all over them. I don't know if that is the cause of the squick, or if the prohibition is a result of a natural squick. But squick there is.

I'm sorry for your friend. And yeah, Carl Agatha, it's tough. *hugs*

The Hauntology of Celebrity (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 10 June 2015 07:12 (eight years ago) link

This is great.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H89QQfXtc-k

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Tuesday, 16 June 2015 20:00 (eight years ago) link

ty for posting that!

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Tuesday, 16 June 2015 20:26 (eight years ago) link

two weeks pass...

OK so a friend of mine went home to Pittsburgh this weekend and said she'd pick up a shirt from me to wear next time I see my mom (also from the burgh) Get a text message from her today saying "Do you like tie dye?". Errrr. So I write back that "No, it's not really my thing. Kinda too hippie etc." and immediately get one back saying "Oh. Well, I had to make a quick decision and I took a chance :/". Somehow I think I managed a response that got me out of seeming like a total asshole but now I have to pretend to be into some tie dye shirt and AM I WALKING AROUND PROJECTING SOME KIND OF IMAGE THAT MAKES PEOPLE THINK I WOULD LIKE TIE DYE?! THAT IS NOT OK!

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Monday, 6 July 2015 18:36 (eight years ago) link

AM I WALKING AROUND PROJECTING SOME KIND OF IMAGE THAT MAKES PEOPLE THINK I WOULD LIKE TIE DYE?! THAT IS NOT OK!

I have been assured that I am not and that it is in fact weird that this friend would ever think that I might so phew. Still, lol.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Monday, 6 July 2015 18:37 (eight years ago) link

This reminds me of the time a former coworker brought me back an ugly orange scarf from her overseas travel and while it was super thoughtful of her to think of me at all, her comments that she knew I loved orange* and that this scarf just looked like me had me shook for weeks. So I feel you, and I would not have pegged you for someone who likes tie dye.

*I do not love orange, nor do I own anything orange that I wear, nor had I worn anything orange around this coworker ever as far as I could tell.

from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha), Monday, 6 July 2015 18:55 (eight years ago) link

three weeks pass...

is there any chance that it's some kind of like subtle tie dye? lol, probs not

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Monday, 27 July 2015 23:43 (eight years ago) link

one month passes...

ok we've talked about this before right? when people parrot the things you were saying to them a few years ago back to you - when a few years ago they were putting you thru living hell for saying them - with no acknowledgement of that background

SO ANGRYYYYY

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Thursday, 27 August 2015 18:57 (eight years ago) link

ugh
definitely irritating but you can't let it get you down!

reminds me of when someone who used to be an asshole/mean person turns over a new leaf and embraces the radical concept of being a nice decent kind person and then acts like they invented the concept of being a nice person. that makes me irritated. i'm glad that they are not a mean person anymore but at the same time...etc

on another change-related note, today in my class my students immediately understood when i told them about singular "they" and this woman in her 50s was like "it's for transgender people!" now that's a change that feels like a victory instead of a slap in the face.

thank you for reviving this thread, i missed it!

La Lechera, Thursday, 27 August 2015 19:07 (eight years ago) link

we did a go-round at girls rock camp this year and said our name and PGPs - the kids were 10x cooler about it than the adults tbh. many said they preferred they/them. made me feel like kids today are so chill about gender stuff, much more so than their parents/my generation.

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Thursday, 27 August 2015 19:13 (eight years ago) link

like the kids didnt bat an eye, they were just like "this makes perfect sense, why wouldnt we do this"

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Thursday, 27 August 2015 19:14 (eight years ago) link

Hello girl thread.

Yes that would definitely be a thing that I have complained about in the past. It's frustrating and annoying to not get the acknowledgement, and really angry making to have your time and effort and emotion just ignored and discounted, because of course all of that stuff just comes for free. But hey. The important thing is, that it got through in the end. Small changes change the world, even if you get crushed under the weight of having to constantly ask for them.

Singular they is, erm, wider than just trans usage. It's long-term gender-neutral usage which has feminist as well as trans implications, but erm, that's an "A is a subset of B" rather than "A is a separate issue to B" or really, to be honest "A and B are both overlapping subsets of C" thing I guess.

Been having an easier time in general with gender recently. But it's all kind of a massive breakthrough "ah-ha" paradigm-change that has happened through therapy, where I've discovered the entire foundation to my entire life is about 50 yards to the north of where I thought it was, and so every single thing in my life I've been seeing from a completely different angle. It's good, though.

Suggest Autobahn (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 27 August 2015 20:06 (eight years ago) link

I know that about singular they -- I was just glad my student knew about it too, that she was aware of the issue at all.

La Lechera, Thursday, 27 August 2015 20:56 (eight years ago) link

Ah. Sorry, I'm just getting bogged down by endless details again.

Here, have some semi-naked Germans in a shower:

http://36.media.tumblr.com/73e18927fb9b6414423bc6b65f7131cf/tumblr_mmle1dT0ph1s0ok2po2_500.jpg

Suggest Autobahn (Branwell with an N), Friday, 28 August 2015 08:11 (eight years ago) link

You know I really really wish I'd read Female Masculinity by J. Halberstam about 15 years ago. Or 5 years ago or just any point before now, really. But I suppose some books find you when you are ready to read them. It certainly doesn't have all the answers, and its taxonomy is flawed and dated in places (yet still preserves nuances that seem to have been lost in the mainstreaming of certain dialogues. But I just found it such a relief, to read someone interrogating things (even when I disagreed with them) that I needed to see interrogated and discussed. The deep history behind *why* certain trends and political stances happened - things I can remember living through but did not know why they had become that way.

I wish it were longer. I wish it were expanded - updated to include the progressions and regressions of the past 17 years - and broadened to discuss masculinity in bisexual or even heterosexual women and queer trans men (though a deliberate focus on specifically Lesbian culture was pretty important to the book's power.)

But the critical idea of detaching masculinity from Maleness in order to discuss it more closely; that was mindblowing.

Anyway, it was a good book. Are there any threads about Masculinity that aren't toxic wastedumps because it would be interesting to throw it in there?

Suggest Autobahn (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 9 September 2015 06:55 (eight years ago) link

im late but, i don't think there are any such threads. :/

this book and its subj matter sounds very much up my alley

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Monday, 14 September 2015 18:05 (eight years ago) link

three weeks pass...

my old time bff is having some body img probs after 2 kids and a shitload of health probs

recommended reading to get her to stop her toxic self talk ("my body is embarrassing and disgusting") and get her to see the light?

no rush. this place is a graveyard these days!

La Lechera, Monday, 5 October 2015 20:11 (eight years ago) link

My coworker went through some pretty hardcore body image issues & swears by Women Food & God by Geneen Roth. And another v cool friend of mine has repped for this book too, swears it shifted a lot of things for her mentally. I have it on my wishlist but havent gotten to it yet.

(God in the title = spiritual, not religious fyi )

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 5 October 2015 23:40 (eight years ago) link

idk if this would be useful but: a beautiful body project

just1n3, Tuesday, 6 October 2015 00:16 (eight years ago) link

I've been really distracted by my belly--which just seemed bigger and weird and uncomfortable--for a while now.

I've been kinda on the fence: like, OK should I lose some weight so my pants fit again or just accept it, get over it, I am 41 with a belly (but not overweight and in excellent health) blah blah

It turn out I have a belly full of fibroids. Which I've know I've had for years, but in the past couple of months I started having lower abdominal discomfort and the belly bloat and a hard abdominal mass that I can actually feel and move around (ewwwwww).

So now I'm getting worked up for surgery. And instead of being like oh fuck, surgery, substantial recovery period, blah blah blah. . .

I'm like, oh hey maybe my pants will fit again!!!!

Which is pretty fucked up.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Tuesday, 6 October 2015 01:54 (eight years ago) link

I mean instead of wishing I didn't have fibroids in the first place, I'm grateful that perhaps I can blame *them* for my belly bloat and not *me* for being a failure at belly control.

So yeah, I could use some work on body positivity myself, obv.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Tuesday, 6 October 2015 01:56 (eight years ago) link

quince! Sorry abut the health ish that are fueling this. But I think if under your thinking there is a base of, like, get this foreign thing that is not me out of me, wanting to set your body "to rights," that's understandable.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Tuesday, 6 October 2015 02:03 (eight years ago) link

^^ also clothes not fitting is uncomfortable whatever and buying new ones sucks, so

kinder, Tuesday, 6 October 2015 09:20 (eight years ago) link

Good luck with surgery, quince, and feeling body positive!

tokyo rosemary, Tuesday, 6 October 2015 15:05 (eight years ago) link

thanks for the recs y'all -- i'll pass them along to her.

quincie i know exactly what you mean -- i had a swollen abdomen for like 2 weeks and it was disturbing because not only did i feel like a spider, but everything was uncomfortable and i felt sick and lost my appetite, the whole deal. io is otm -- wanting your body to be unswollen isn't the same as dysmorphia or w/e

La Lechera, Tuesday, 6 October 2015 19:10 (eight years ago) link

"feel like a spider" is an excellent description! Like, I have these longish, thinish limbs, but this protruding belly. I'm just waiting for the "when are you due" question, which will be awkward for both me and the questioner. But I'm still thinking I've got some super internalized "good tummy = flat tummy" shit going on, because I shouldn't be relieved that I have a medical issue. I should have been relieved to find out it was just fat.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Tuesday, 6 October 2015 22:08 (eight years ago) link

also kinder otm about clothing not fitting being The Major Suck, and thanks to all for kind words and support <3

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Tuesday, 6 October 2015 22:10 (eight years ago) link

i've gotten back into sewing

sarahell, Tuesday, 6 October 2015 22:12 (eight years ago) link

Please revive the sewing thread (isn't there a sewing thread?)! I have patterns plus fabric plus notions plus machine and yet have used none of these for a long-ass time.

I do have some sewing blogs that I check in with periodically.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Tuesday, 6 October 2015 22:29 (eight years ago) link

i have this idea (inspired by Sassy magazine "make this" features) of making a t-shirt dress out of a t-shirt plus target leggings that ripped at the inner thigh seam. That is next in line to the dress I'm making atm

sarahell, Tuesday, 6 October 2015 22:31 (eight years ago) link

I have yet to sew with knit fabric, so I salute you on this sassy endeavor!

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Tuesday, 6 October 2015 22:32 (eight years ago) link

Tangentially related: I got a bunch of blood tests done, and it looks like I don't have PCOS after all. I immediately sent a 'Fuuuuuuck you'-style email to the terrible gyn I had last year. She told me I most likely had PCOS within 2mins of meeting me, solely based on the fact that I have heavy periods.

She sent me back a non-apologetic apology.

just1n3, Tuesday, 6 October 2015 22:42 (eight years ago) link

Have you had an ultrasound? Could be fibroids, they are well-known for producing heavy periods.

My periods are kinda but not *terribly* heavy, but my big-ass fibroids are outside of my uterus, so they don't play into the period thing.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Wednesday, 7 October 2015 01:25 (eight years ago) link

oh i forgot to put irregular as well. yeah mine aren't super heavy either. i only had ultrasounds done before and after IUD placement, and then a month later - vaginal one. is that the same kind they use for looking for fibroids? i was having a lot of lower ab pain as well, but it started after my IUD, and seems to have mostly ebbed away. i was really hoping to get the IUD yanked and get a TL, but i have to be on BCP anyway to prevent uterine cancer :/

just1n3, Wednesday, 7 October 2015 01:39 (eight years ago) link

ugh I mean uteri are awesome for what they can do, but since I never wanted to make babby, my uterus just seems like a useless pain in the ass/abdomen.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Wednesday, 7 October 2015 01:51 (eight years ago) link

Ultrasound for IUD would pick up fibroids in the uterus, but I'm not sure about outside the uterus. I hope you find a non-horrible gyn! I've been with my (great) gyn for over a dozen years, and she has been ace. We argue about mammograms (I want to do every 2 years because SCIENCE, she is more conservative and is all "insurance will pay for it why not do it annually?" Uh, because SCIENCE). But anyway you need a good doc on your side when shit goes bad.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Wednesday, 7 October 2015 01:53 (eight years ago) link

yeah i've been with an NP since the first gyn dr, but i have to actually pick a dr, preferrably a one who performs surgery, if i'm gonna go the TL route.

just1n3, Wednesday, 7 October 2015 05:11 (eight years ago) link

Catching up a bit here but... Good luck with the surgery!

Dröhn Rock (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 7 October 2015 07:27 (eight years ago) link

Yes, good luck with surgery!

it looks like I don't have PCOS after all

I've given up on knowing whether I even have PCOS. I was sent for some tests in 2009 with no mention of PCOS and told that the results were inconclusive, and then 4 years later a different GP said "oh I see you have PCOS" because apparently (she said) the results from 2010 were sufficient to conclude PCOS, and I was annoyed that I hadn't been told at the time. Then a month ago I saw yet another GP and said "oh yeah, I have symptom x bcz PCOS" (the main symptom that got me tested in the first place) and she basically went "pfft, that's not even a symptom of PCOS, u mad" or something.

So it was all a bit frustrating until I decided that since I wasn't offered any specific treatment anyway I might as well ignore the question of Do I Officially Have This Thing and continue to mentally blame any and all possible symptoms on it or not, whichever seems more comforting at the time.

a passing spacecadet, Wednesday, 7 October 2015 11:28 (eight years ago) link

Good luck quincie! I know what you mean about the strange relief of it turning out to be 'spiders' and not fat. But perhaps part of the reason that 'fat' felt worrying to you is that you're good at feeling the connection between your habits and your particular body and knew that the sudden belly appearance didn't seem caused by, e.g., a few weeks eating more than usual, letting go of some dietary restriction (not that I think you have any, I follow you closely on the cooking borad), etc. Then there's this 'how did this happen' disconnect. If it had been the result of extra eating, it might have been a non-issue. iirc you have made very happy and positive-seeming decisions in the past re: not attempting to force yourself back into the pants of yesteryear.

ljubljana, Wednesday, 7 October 2015 11:56 (eight years ago) link

Also, any thoughts about fat that seem hurtful can be dismissed. I think most of us would struggle to be fully rid of them after a lifetime of anti-fat messages. Practicing being good at dismissing them seems more important than not having them. I've been practicing but sometimes I forget.

ljubljana, Wednesday, 7 October 2015 12:00 (eight years ago) link

APSC - yeah the problem with pcos is that i think it requires a differential diagnosis? like, there are lots of pcos symptoms that are actually symptoms of something else. and they keep changing the diagnosis criteria.
if irregular periods are a symptom, and you aren't on the pill, that might be something specific to inquire about. it thins out the lining of the uterus and helps prevent uterine cancer. insulin resistance is another thing, too.

just1n3, Wednesday, 7 October 2015 12:47 (eight years ago) link

p.s. i was prepared to totally ignore it too, the only reason i got tested was bc the hormonal IUD i'm using is giving me shit skin and also has put me in a basically permanent state of pre-period food-craving and i wanted to go hormone free. now i just need to find out if i can take a low-androgen pill instead.

just1n3, Wednesday, 7 October 2015 12:50 (eight years ago) link

if I had screen names 'pants of yesteryear' would be mine

kinder, Wednesday, 7 October 2015 13:19 (eight years ago) link

I need to join the hormone club - I stopped breastfeeding (not even my choice, the baby suddenly was like 'wtf is this') and my skin is unrecognisable :(

kinder, Wednesday, 7 October 2015 13:21 (eight years ago) link

sorry for abrupt subject change

wondering if anyone here can relate

currently sorting through a lot of old traumas that have never been sorted through, and trying to put stuff to rest and finally move on healthily. among many other things, i'm realizing the direct impacts that having an un-nurturing mother has had on my life (a mother who does not care about your feelings at all in any way, the opposite of supportive in a crisis, who teaches you not to trust any achievement of your own because it's probably a trick, who invents complex imaginary scenarios and convinces you they are real, who is hypercritical and convinces you that this is just how everyone else in life is gonna view you, and most of all you are deeply weird and will never understand normal people, so just try to hide as much as possible, human relationships are just elaborate interpersonal performances). the impacts it has had on the way that i am, and the way that my family and relationships are. it is such hard work undoing it, and i can't even seem to approach thinking about being forgiving about it yet.

additionally, and what i most want to talk about here, beating myself up for being 35 and just now understanding and working on all this stuff. i've always felt 10 years behind on being "normal"; no change

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 7 October 2015 16:10 (eight years ago) link

good luck roxy :/

the hardest part for me was having to let go (to an extent - i can't ever truly let go) of the idea that my mother will ever acknowledge/realize/admit to how her poor parenting affected my whole life and personality, and apologize for it. but she's actually a much better parent to me as an adult, so that makes it easier. and also seeing her old behaviors reflected in me, like catching myself thinking or acting like her.

good for you, addressing this head-on, though. i've always been too cowardly to really do that.

just1n3, Wednesday, 7 October 2015 16:25 (eight years ago) link

i think that working with kids and, like you said, catching myself acting like her or saying things she used to say to me around them and wanting to nip that in the bud ASAP is what caused me to turn down this road in the first place

i just keep remembering all these terrible things that i havent thought about in so long

for ex:

when i was 18 i moved in with some shitty people just to get away from mom, one of whom was an extremely misogynistic alcoholic (who later sexually assaulted me). i felt like - KNEW! - i couldn't move out. i believed i was literally incapable of doing normal, everyday things on my own, a self-concept impressed on me by my mom. after leaving that living situation, i was unable to find anywhere to live due to my former roommate's breaking windows (and therefore leases - and of course my name was on the lease). i was homeless, and called my mom. she drove to my work and screamed at me for having nowhere to go

cool parenting

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 7 October 2015 16:53 (eight years ago) link

you're not the sum of yr mom's bad example. you are the you you are now in spite of her, and every discovery you make now is a step further away from that shadow.

you are creating yourself. doesn't matter that you just started. the point is starting <3

those kids are probably going to be more influential to you now than yr mom which is ironic BUT also awesome. and, idk, to me that is a great example of how you can never pick who is going to teach you the most about yrself

and there's no right age where ppl ~know~ these supposed truths. any age is a good age, fuck yeah 35! etc

i've wrestled with a lot of shit re my mom. it sucks but once you get out of the "why did it take so long" you will have lisa frank rainbows of realizations that are worth all of this rn <3

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 7 October 2015 18:07 (eight years ago) link

Roxy I'm on a bus so this is gonna be disjointed.

Trauma doesn't happen on a pre-planned predictable timescale! And as a result, the processing and realisations that lead to healing and recovery don't happen on a timescale either! They happen when you're ready for them. And they often happen only after you have got to a distance of relative safety away from the trauma to be *able* to process it and heal from it. You know how people in the immediate aftermath of an accident are able to perform superhuman stunts of strength and endurance to get out of the burning car, but it's only once they get to safety, then the pain kicks in, and they pass out from shock? Dealing with psychological trauma is like that, but in slow motion. It takes years and sometimes even decades until you get to a place where you can process what's happened to you.

The important thing is not *when* you come to this realisation, but the fact that you've done it at all. Some people never get there. You are there now, and you're trying to do something about it. Congratulate and take some kind of pride in yourself for getting that far.

I mean, you wanna talk about being angry (at oneself, or others) for not developing on schedule? Dude, I am dealing at the age of 45 with a diagnosis (well a re-diagnosis of a misdiagnosis) of a condition that is normally recognised and diagnosed in CHILDHOOD. How's that for behind schedule? Would I really like those wasted years of hammering at things the wrong way back to do-over with new knowledge? Of course I would.

But that's not how it works. We are where we are now, and we work with the knowledge that we have now.

I know I sound like a shitty platitude (or my therapist) but the thing to work on being kind to yourself and forgiving yourself? After that dealing with the others is a doddle by comparison?

Dröhn Rock (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 7 October 2015 19:55 (eight years ago) link

true facts about trauma ^^

i just keep remembering all these terrible things that i havent thought about in so long

same, and similarly these deeply buried feelings (of a different, non-parental nature) started to erupt right around the same time i was starting something new that was challenging to me in a good way. i was afraid of my old feelings fucking it up, like really worried. i feel more confident now that i have stared it down and kept going.
i'm gonna leave it at that, but so far so good, i know the feeling, and <3 to you

La Lechera, Thursday, 8 October 2015 00:48 (eight years ago) link

I've been offered what I think of as the Carl Agatha Special*: an elective hysterectomy! I'm going for a second opinion next week, though.

I'd keep the ovaries, which are fine, so no surgical menopause. I asked about my cervix. "Up to you," said the surgeon. WTF, you are the dude who went to medical school, maybe you should weigh in here? I'm all for patient choice, but you gotta at least give me some pros/cons to work with! He kinda shrugged and said "studies indicate that it really doesn't matter." What does he prefer? "I usually take it out, but again, it's up to you."

Well ffs, let's just flip a coin, then?

*not actually available to CA. Sorry, carl :(

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 16 October 2015 17:37 (eight years ago) link

wow that's exciting for you!
i would think removing the cervix might affect sexual response?
and wtf that he didn't think to mention that?

La Lechera, Friday, 16 October 2015 17:42 (eight years ago) link

i feel a need for this thread today thank you for bumping
i'm so tired that i think my brain is actually drained of blood

La Lechera, Friday, 16 October 2015 17:42 (eight years ago) link

me too. i am feeling kinda sads and tired etc

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 16 October 2015 17:52 (eight years ago) link

(a mother who does not care about your feelings at all in any way, the opposite of supportive in a crisis, who teaches you not to trust any achievement of your own because it's probably a trick, who invents complex imaginary scenarios and convinces you they are real, who is hypercritical and convinces you that this is just how everyone else in life is gonna view you, and most of all you are deeply weird and will never understand normal people, so just try to hide as much as possible, human relationships are just elaborate interpersonal performances). the impacts it has had on the way that i am, and the way that my family and relationships are. it is such hard work undoing it, and i can't even seem to approach thinking about being forgiving about it yet.

Ooof. Respect, roxy, for grappling with this in such a clear-sighted way. We have so many kids at this school who are having emotional crises literally every day and we keep trying to get them new levels of mentoring, counseling, outside services, etc to try to build their emotional growth before it becomes a discipline/safety issue that the school has to be punitive about. Just today we were talking about one student and I specifically thought, "She needs a mother. Like an ideal mother. She needs a champion whose love never wanes" and I felt for her SO BAD. We can't give her that, so far, but it set me thinking about that kind of love so your description rang that bell hard.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 16 October 2015 17:53 (eight years ago) link

I hope you can both have some good R&R this weekend!

Dude said cervix removal doesn't affect sexual response. I'll try to quote him exactly: "the cervix, it's only real function is as a door to the uterus. No uterus, no need for door."

I dunno I guess if it comes out I will definitely never have cervical cancer!

oops, sorry for xpost

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 16 October 2015 17:55 (eight years ago) link

like he explicitly said it doesn't affect sexual response or he avoided the question with the answer about the door? i remember reading something about it and have feared cervical cancer for that reason specifically (among the obvious others like dying obvs)
i'd be glad to know it's not true but i'm not convinced by that answer!

i hear the work-affecting-the-feelings bell
know that one well

La Lechera, Friday, 16 October 2015 18:02 (eight years ago) link

Congratulations!!! I've never considered the cervix issue. I can't decide whether it would freak me out more to have the top of my vag be closed off, like a Ken doll crotch vagina, or have a cervix with nothing behind it but the rest of my insides.

Like this

https://citymovement.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/screen-shot-2013-02-13-at-9-21-08-pm.png?w=470

or this

https://cdn.wittyfeed.com/4647/d1e3a4xokb7p5wf8jk6d.jpeg

carl agatha, Friday, 16 October 2015 18:04 (eight years ago) link

He specifically said that studies indicated no impact on sexual function. The door was an add-on comment, albeit an awkward one.

xpost hahahah I'm just gonna try to stop thinking of doors for a while!

Its funny, when he said something about "not having periods anymore," I'm like OH RIGHT!!! My main issue is what he referred to as "bulking" symptoms (puffed out abdomen, feeling of heaviness, aching) and not so much awful bleeding (though that piece could be better), but all of a sudden I was struck by the idea of life with ZERO periods for ever and ever amen!

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 16 October 2015 18:07 (eight years ago) link

i know we can count on kate78 to tell us the truth
it is freaking me out to think about the ken doll

La Lechera, Friday, 16 October 2015 18:08 (eight years ago) link

i mean not a lot but yknow

La Lechera, Friday, 16 October 2015 18:09 (eight years ago) link

I got a very ken doll vibe from Martin O'Malley in this week's dem primary debates. I picture him with a ken doll crotch.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 16 October 2015 18:10 (eight years ago) link

lol
he seems like an actor playing president on teevee

La Lechera, Friday, 16 October 2015 18:11 (eight years ago) link

what's the standard recovery time for a hysterectomy?

just1n3, Friday, 16 October 2015 18:15 (eight years ago) link

Yeah, I don't see why the cervix would have anything to do with sexual response tbh. That woudldn't have occurred to me to worry about.

additionally, and what i most want to talk about here, beating myself up for being 35 and just now understanding and working on all this stuff. i've always felt 10 years behind on being "normal"; no change

i identify with this so hard. I'm just a little older than you are dealing with similar things. I'm finally, just now, realizing the damage that my mother did to me. I've been in pretty intense therapy for almost two years now and I'm just starting to get it. My therapist and I are pretty sure that my mom has Narcissistic Personality Disorder but it's sort of the opposite to what Justine described - she was a pretty good parent when I was a kid but that all changed when I was about 17 and since then she's been either drunk and/or depressed but most often both. The biggest effect this has had on me is similar to what you describe in that her parenting has made me think that I'm not a capable adult and I feel way behind my peers in a lot of ways. Anyway, it's a process and I'm really just starting to heal. The fact that I'm only doing this now does make me feel really bad sometimes but when I do feel bad I try to remember that at least I'm dealing with it and trying to grow and that's something that some people never even get around to? Idk - it's really hard and I get angry about it a lot tbh.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Friday, 16 October 2015 18:28 (eight years ago) link

(Sometimes it feels like I've paid and continue to pay a pretty hefty price - all the numerous fucking issues and complexes I've walked around with my entire life - for all this and she's just oblivious or chooses to be oblivious. Tbh she never should have parented imo.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Friday, 16 October 2015 18:38 (eight years ago) link

Anyway I went off there but just wanted to say that I get it R and try not to be too hard on yourself. I think it's pretty awesome that you're confronting this stuff and dealing with it at all no matter what age.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Friday, 16 October 2015 18:38 (eight years ago) link

i know we can count on kate78 to tell us the truth
it is freaking me out to think about the ken doll

gosh, I haven't logged on in weeks, but it was almost as if I could sense my name being invoked.

I don't know a ton about suprecervical hysterectomies, but I know a lot of it depends on the procedure used to get it out (abdominal or laparoscopic or vaginal). Vaginal, I believe, is the preferred method, but you can't spare the cervix with that method.

Anyway, I'd probably take it out as long as they're in there.

kate78, Friday, 16 October 2015 19:00 (eight years ago) link

Yeah fuck it. Take it all. What else can they get out while they're at it? Gallbladder? Appendix? Fuck it.

carl agatha, Friday, 16 October 2015 19:24 (eight years ago) link

I lost ten pounds having superfluous and vestigial organs removed. Ask me how!

carl agatha, Friday, 16 October 2015 19:25 (eight years ago) link

thank you! i appreciate your candor, expertise, and sharp personal radar, kate78 :)

La Lechera, Friday, 16 October 2015 19:41 (eight years ago) link

Hugs and kudos to roxy!!

Re: procedure/recovery. Surgeon #1 would do lap and possibly da Vinci robot (LOL, robot hysterectomy!), OUTPATIENT which damn that is huge to me to be back home same day; back to work in 2 weeks (but maybe just a couple of days until up to doing some work from home). Up and about early and often is the rule. Definately no your mother's (or, in my case, grandmother's) hysterectomy with its 6-8 week down time!

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 16 October 2015 20:04 (eight years ago) link

Lechera and Carl: off topic but I'll be in your city and will have a few hours free on Sunday afternoon if yous wanna grab a drink? Gotta be back on the Blue Line around 6.

kate78, Friday, 16 October 2015 20:47 (eight years ago) link

maybe? this week has been hellish and i need a sensory deprivation chamber before even thinking about grading midterms but send me an email and we can exchange contact info!!

La Lechera, Friday, 16 October 2015 20:59 (eight years ago) link

email sent!

kate78, Friday, 16 October 2015 21:16 (eight years ago) link

Aw, Roxy. I feel you. Had a lot of same realizations working with kiddos. Had to get back on all kinds of mental health meds I'd convinced myself I didn't need. Had to get a lot of therapy. Three years later kinds doing better. Took over 20 years of constantly beefing with my parents, talking with siblings now that we're full-grown, to realize they were just doing their best even though their best was not always very good for me. Godspeed and if you even need to chat, hit me up.

The Fart in Our Stalls (Abbott), Friday, 16 October 2015 21:34 (eight years ago) link

the past is like a big whack-a-mole that keeps popping up in the present no matter how much you think you'be beaten it down, and you can never predict when or where
that's what I've learned in life

The Fart in Our Stalls (Abbott), Friday, 16 October 2015 21:36 (eight years ago) link

troothboms

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Friday, 16 October 2015 23:06 (eight years ago) link

sometimes as you get older you learn that you dont have to whack the moles whenever they pop up, you can just go "oh hey that thing that happened" and keep on truckin

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 16 October 2015 23:12 (eight years ago) link

Lechera and Carl: off topic but I'll be in your city and will have a few hours free on Sunday afternoon if yous wanna grab a drink? Gotta be back on the Blue Line around 6.

I'm scheduled to attend a local park kid Halloween party adorablenessfest from 2-4 but also email me (or copy me when you email LL) because it would be lovely to see you if I can.

carl agatha, Saturday, 17 October 2015 01:10 (eight years ago) link

thank you all for all this wonderful support around my mom issues, yall. i seriously appreciate it.

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 20 October 2015 16:07 (eight years ago) link

<3

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 20 October 2015 17:11 (eight years ago) link

i think that, sadly, too many women didn't make it out of their childhoods (or sometimes even adulthoods) unscathed by the way their mothers treated them.

just1n3, Tuesday, 20 October 2015 17:27 (eight years ago) link

The first part of growing up (actually growing up, becoming a functional human adult; rather than just ageing out of your child body) is recognising the fucked up patterns caused by faulty rearing, and trying to alter them, to make yourself a better and more decent human being.

But I think part of that adult growing up process involves understanding that your parents (and put the finger for faulty upbringing on all parents, not just mothers) were human beings. Maybe deeply flawed human beings. But human beings dealing the best they could with the hands that were dealt them. And not just that they were flawed human beings, but they were raising girls within deeply fucked up power structures. I'm guessing from ILX demographics that most of us were born in the 70s or 80s, which means our mothers grew up in the 60s and 70s. Dealing with sexism, external or internalised during that particular historical era, how fucked up things were. And especially those mothers who were dealing with mental health issues, diagnosed or undiagnosed or utterly misdiagnosed - including mine I might add! - stigma is bad today, even with all the information and psychiatric treatment, but y'know, trying to cope with that with absolutely zero support structure in place.

I'm not giving a "get out of a jail free card" for bad parenting. But understanding that deeply flawed people, doing an incredibly difficult job under structures we now understand to be totally fucked... that does not produce the best results. I think it's a marvel sometimes that anyone gets to adulthood unscathed. IDGAF about forgiveness; I think it's overrated. But I think Understanding, and that sense of "they did the best they could with what was available to them" goes a long way towards letting go of anger and moving forward into better behaviour.

Dröhn Rock (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 21 October 2015 07:24 (eight years ago) link

otm

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 21 October 2015 15:58 (eight years ago) link

It's official: my uterus (and its buddy cervix, because why not) are being evicted from the premises on November 12.

Gory details can follow if anyone is interested.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Thursday, 22 October 2015 22:42 (eight years ago) link

should we throw a "bye uterus etc" party y/n

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 22 October 2015 22:51 (eight years ago) link

I sure as hell plan to!

Only one more period (if that) EVAH for me, holy shit.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Thursday, 22 October 2015 23:04 (eight years ago) link

and then throw all your tampons into a kiddie pool

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 22 October 2015 23:23 (eight years ago) link

God I can't even imagine, bon voyage uterus!!

La Lechera, Friday, 23 October 2015 00:33 (eight years ago) link

I'm totally going to ask for pictures of the uterus and fibroids laid out on a tray!

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 23 October 2015 00:42 (eight years ago) link

Hey! (hey!) Uterus! (uterus!) get off of my cloud...

I'm so sorry. Good luck with the operation.

Dröhn Rock (Branwell with an N), Friday, 23 October 2015 07:06 (eight years ago) link

I'm totally down with uterus lyrics! Thanks for the good wishes.

This time last year I was being worked up as a potential kidney donor, which turns out to have been good mental preparation. I seem destined to lose an organ some way or another.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 23 October 2015 12:15 (eight years ago) link

Q, all the best with this! Is the Da Vinci robot a go?

ljubljana, Friday, 23 October 2015 12:46 (eight years ago) link

quincie <3 thinking of you!

roxy & ENBB, i have been going through exactly this myself in the past couple of years, the reprocessing, also post-age-35 and after my friends started having kids. gradually came to understand that my mother is abusive and my father is an alcoholic (functioning, but nevertheless). i grew up in a terrible home environment with a lot of yelling, a lot of stress and chaos, where i wasn't really allowed to have a normal range of emotions, i mostly learned that I had to keep to myself and not draw too much attention and pretend that things were ok, to get by. i didn't grasp until recently how damaging it was. it's not for lack of trying but i wasn't diagnosed properly until i went to someone who specializes in ptsd/trauma, so for many years i thought i was the problem

once my friends started having kids i started to think, wait, i could never, ever imagine any of them *ever* yelling hateful things at their children or hitting them. i could never imagine any of them making it their priority to hang out in a bar just about every night and being emotionally absent in all the ways that go along with that. i also feel pretty bad at times about being behind my friends/peers on this or that major life milestone, but on the other hand.. if i hadn't been stubborn enough to go away to college and get out of that town, i'd probably have wound up married to an abusive drunk and stuck in a dead end job and thinking i didn't deserve anything else. i really went through a lot & things are slowly getting better but it certainly has taken me a lot of time and money and a good therapist.

i do not think my parents did the best they could. i can't change it now, but.. imo the bar should be set higher than that, and their behavior is the problem. it seems that in order to really move on, i have to keep reminding myself of that and not diminish/hide the past or go along with family pressure to pretend everything's fine.

seriously, THIS GUY (daria-g), Saturday, 24 October 2015 23:37 (eight years ago) link

daria-g, so good to see you back 'round these parts! Let's do it in person soon--I'll e-mail you :)

I found gobs of fault in my parent while I an adolescent, but I can now look back and see how lucky I was to have very good and decent people--people who placed family and being good spouses/parents above all else--as my folks. It wasn't perfect, but it was very supportive and real and man, I sure did get lucky. I think about what Roxy, ENBB, daria, VG, and others here had to contend with IN ADDITION to growing up as girls/women in this world. . . ugh. That's all I can think of to say. Ugh.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Sunday, 25 October 2015 02:35 (eight years ago) link

I'm not talking about diminishing the past, or handwaving away the past, I'm talking about looking the horrors of the past full in the face in order to understand them, and understand one's own place in them.

I don't need - or want - to rehearse or list the terrors of my childhood here. You've got the lot: long-term emotional abuse; physical abuse and beatings inside and outside the family; sexual abuse and rape outside. All of which was denied. The first rape denied in a way that was particularly destructive to my sense of bodily autonomy, for a long time, which lead to further assaults.

I was lucky, in that when I first started sprouting behavioural problems at school, aged 12 or 13, the therapist I was sent to sent me back to school and took my Mum in for counselling. There followed 10, 15 years of my Mother in therapy. Things didn't become great overnight. Things got a lot worse before they got better.

But in the course of that therapy, I eventually discovered things about my Mother's childhood. Abuse doesn't come out of nowhere. She was abandoned by her parents, who left her in the care of a relative who raped her repeatedly as she was growing up. For her to acknowledge the fact that I was raped would mean acknowledging her own rape, which she wasn't ready to do yet. She spent her entire life dealing with massive undiagnosed PTSD. She was hospitalised at least twice (that I know of) for "major mood disorders". I did not know that while she was raising us, she was wrestling with major mental illness - she later told me she would get up, feed us, take us to school, then go home and collapse straight back into bed with depression. I have dealt with depression, and been hospitalised myself, for mood disorders. I got into substance abuse to cope, which she never did. I have since learned about PTSD, because I've had to, because of my own abuse and assaults. She didn't have those resources when raising me. I have struggled with this shit my whole life. I cannot imagine dealing with this, and trying to raise children at the same time. *I* would not have coped. I am not surprised that she failed to.

All of this stuff is now puzzle pieces for me, trying to put together a picture of "why were things like that". The missing puzzle piece was my absent father. Absent emotionally through all of this stuff, absent physically as much as he could through overwork, just plain absent when he finally ran away. I've assembled pieces of his bizarre childhood from family history I inherited after that set of grandparents died. Another puzzle piece arrived after I was diagnosed with Asperger's; my Dad was all "oh hey a lot of my programmer friends have that, I'll go and take one of their tests... oh. That's an awfully high score, isn't it. And I was a lot worse before I found this community of people a lot like me." Another puzzle piece of so many things in my childhood that weren't him refusing to do things; just him being *unable* to. My Mum was raising children single-handedly because my father was just not there emotionally.

Things were fucked up. I'm not sweeping this stuff under the rug or denying it. But things like looking at my own freakouts (PTSD triggering + autistic meltdown = wow that is a person totally out of control to the point where I didn't even actually understand what was happening) and then looking at memories of my parents' behaviours, and seeing the same patterns has enabled me to say "wow, PTSD is a hell of a trip" with regards to out-of-control behaviour (even violent, abusive out-of-control behaviour) and trying-to-regain-control behaviour, rather than "what a vicious, controlling, abusive narcissist." Which it would be very easy, as an outsider, to think or dismiss.

I have a ton of friends with alcoholism and substance abuse disorders; I've done my own research on addiction because of my own struggles. When you read about the neurochemistry of those things, it does help to frame it as a disease, with both psychological and physiological aspects. Addiction is not a failure of will or a moral fault, it's something much closer to a mental illness. Mental illness is not a failure of will or a moral fault. It's a combination of misfiring brain function and environmental stress triggers.

Despite everything that happened in my childhood, I do not like "blame the mother" explanations. *Because* of everything in my childhood, perhaps. "A bipolar incest survivor with PTSD and a high-functioning Aspie get together to raise some children" sounds like the punchline of a joke. It's the hand my parents got dealt. They did with it what they could. I'm lucky that one of them got treatment, albeit after the damage was done. I am able to have a relationship with that parent now, because they walked out from behind the wall of denial. I understand why they did what they did, because they understand why they did what they did. When I say "deeply flawed human beings" I mean "deeply flawed" and I mean "human beings". Accepting both sides. In both of us, parent and child.

There's another option, though. My brother lives behind the wall of denial. My brother is a pretty awful fucking person in ways I've detailed on ILX before; he's swung over to the super-conformist, uber-conservative dark side. My brother is dedicated to being As Normal As Possible (tm). A ton of his behaviour is the kind of rudeness and brusqueness and not-giving-a-fuck-about-others and "Tell Me What I Did That Was Rude. I DEMAND that you tell me what, exactly, I did that was rude, or else you are a fucking liar and what I did was perfectly acceptable, you peasant" which could be read, if he ever actually sat down and admitted that something was wrong, as a lot of the same issues I face. Or it could just be HE. IS. AN. ASSHOLE. (I dunno. I lived a lot of my life with the terror that I was, actually, An Asshole because I could never figure out what I'd done wrong, until a very wise therapist figured out it was a "can't" not a "won't". A lot like my Dad.)

My brother's default explanation for everything is "My Childhood Was Terrible." This is not something he works on, this is his "get out of other people's emotions free" card. Our Mother was not a deeply ill person who needed a lot more help than she ever got, who did the best she could until she did, finally, get help. Our Mother is a SCREAMING EVIL VICIOUS DEMON-HARPIE HELL BITCH WHO RUINED HIS LIFE. He has cut off all contact with her - which, y'know, I support that decision if a family member is still causing abuse and chaos in your life. I no longer have any contact with my brother for pretty similar reasons. Except, well, he didn't just cut her off. Every now and then he'd go and yank at the chain, because the positions have been reversed and he figured out how to use psychology, not to heal himself, but to carry out abuse and psychological warfare against the mother that Ruined His Life. If I get hit as collateral damage in that war, well, that's Not His Fault.

Seeing my adult long-term-relationship smashed up meant that I discovered a new understanding of my parents' and what they went through. My brother's divorce just made him double down on hating our Mother and blaming her for his problems with women. Experiencing crippling mental health issues made me more understanding of my parents' problems. My brother? He doesn't have Mental Health Issues (never mind his own hospitalisations) he even has a note from a doctor that he likes to wave about saying he is Totally Normal Now. He just had a Bad Childhood, which excuses him from ever taking responsibility for his own behaviour, ever.

I just look at my Mother and I look at my brother, and I see a lesson in How To Be; and How Not To Be. One involves looking at your own flaws, and using those to try to understand the flaws of others. The other is just denial and abnegation of responsibility. Accepting this stuff is hard. Changing it is even harder. Accepting that these things are not moral flaws or failures of will: Mental health. PTSD. Addiction. Autistic spectrum stuff. These things come in patterns, though I will leave it to scientists to determine whether that's genetic or environmental (or probably both). But that kind of tick of realising and accepting: if you are dealing with this crap; it's very likely your parents also dealt with this crap, but with less understanding and less help.

Sorry this is so long. Sorry if this is not-helpful. I'm trying, specifically, to talk about my own situation. Your situations will naturally differ. But I just wanted to shade in the detail of what, exactly, I meant, by things like "Understanding" and "did the best they could," For my parents to have "done better", they would have had to have been different people, with different brains and different upbringings. They weren't. They were who they were. And this is who I am, now, trying to puzzle it out.

Dröhn Rock (Branwell with an N), Sunday, 25 October 2015 08:47 (eight years ago) link

Christ that took me 2 hours to write. I am sorry it's so long. I can't TL;DR it, but don't really blame anyone who can't face that wall-o-text.

Dröhn Rock (Branwell with an N), Sunday, 25 October 2015 08:48 (eight years ago) link

I guess the TL;DR version is: we are usually raised a lot like the way our parents were raised. If our childhoods involved hideous things like abuse and mental illness and denial, chances are our parents' childhoods also involved those things. We, now, have access to resources to understand how wrong and how damaging those things are. Our parents' generations generally didn't.

What you choose to do with that knowledge, for better or worse, is up to you.

Dröhn Rock (Branwell with an N), Sunday, 25 October 2015 09:10 (eight years ago) link

I think is great if someone can see a parent's shitty parenting decisions from a socio-historical context and come to the conclusion that they did the best they could under a certain set of circumstances but that's really not going to be the case for everybody. Sometimes parents really don't do the best they could and from a personal growth and emotional development perspective there's just as much value on being able to say "This person did not value my safety and well being as much as they should have" as there is in being able to say "This person really did the best they could."

I've got one parent in each camp. Mom did what she could in some tough circumstances. She still dropped the ball in some major ways but she knows and acknowledges this and that means a lot. My father knew better and prioritized any number of less important considerations over my general health and safety. He was raised by an abusive monster that everyone treated (still treats, posthumously) like the Best Dad Ever but he also was a clinical family therapist so he can gtfo with any did the best he could" shit.

carl agatha, Sunday, 25 October 2015 15:51 (eight years ago) link

I think in terms of my Mum, a lot of her problems stemmed from not coping

And instead of leaning on my Dad to pick up the slack, which she would never do why because weakness, or talking to someone anyone which she would never do why because weakness, the pressure she put on herself to be "Mum" just completely broke her & she spiralled into making worse and worse choices, reacting physically to stressors that in no way remotely deserved those reaction. to anyone outside it looked like it was ok but inside our house it was Beirut & she was holding us all hostage to her fear of failure

And Dad was scared of her, the way we all were. We were basically helpless & just had to do what we could to "dont make her mad" etc

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 26 October 2015 17:00 (eight years ago) link

What made it complicated with Mum was that the only person she was confiding in was me, I'm telling her to leave, to get help and doing all I can do at 16 to protect her from herself & protect the rest of the family from her flameouts

So I saw my parents as flailing adults from the time I was 16... it made me angry for a long time after, even when things got back to normal, even after Mum apologized for putting me in the position I was in

I got the anger & out of my system a few years ago, and I reckoned with the emotional abuse. And I am now (somewhat) at a place where I can think back to those experiences with a form of acceptance - those things happened, but here I am, and allow it to move back into the past where it belongs. That's not our relationship now & a great deal has changed just with the passing of time - the huge geographic distance helped maybe more than anything.

It's there and it won't go away or even diminish, but I'm not fighting the fact of it anymore. I have reached a point where I don't live in that visceral anger anymore.

Not everyone gets there, I don't think there is a right or a wrong way to go about it & I kind of think just being here is a fucking great accomplishment

Each of us ITT has become a unique & independent woman *in spite of* our past. They did what they could, or didn't, but WE filled in the blanks ourselves as best *we* could, and we deserve love & encouragement for that no matter where any of our heads are at, no matter where we are in the process of dealing with so much heartbreak & trauma & bullshit

<3

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 26 October 2015 18:02 (eight years ago) link

geographical distance OTM!

just1n3, Monday, 26 October 2015 20:08 (eight years ago) link

I think I just extricated myself (not particularly deftly however) from an unhealthy friendship. Growing up as a weirdo, I have tended to spend time/be friends with anyone who wanted to be my friend, because friends were hard to come by. Now, I'm realizing how the way I felt about myself as a young person (childhood through early 20s) is still structuring my thinking and behavior as a middle-aged person. I will be friends with people and participate in groups because they want me, regardless of whether I really want them. So I will find myself in situations where I am obligated to do things that I don't gain the pleasure that I should from them, and then develop a sense of resentment, rather than just politely say no.

The depression doesn't help, because I question whether I am unhappy because of the depression or from the activities/people that I am spending time with that I'm honestly not that into. Like this woman (the now former friend), who is kinda emotionally still in high school, where she will criticize other women based on their appearances (e.g. "why does she shave the side of her head? it's so unfeminine!" or "She looks fat in that dress!"). And she is also really self-absorbed and obsessive, so she rarely talks about anything other than a handful of topics, mostly boyfriends and pets, that just get really stale, oh and she has some weird rivalry (that isn't mutual) with another good female friend of mine, and will consistently make catty comments about her whenever she comes up in conversation. I eventually learned not to mention this other friend in her presence, which is just ... well, now no longer an issue!

sarahell, Tuesday, 27 October 2015 21:16 (eight years ago) link

Sounds like a positive change to me <3

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 28 October 2015 00:01 (eight years ago) link

two weeks pass...

Good luck Quincie!

Let us know if you want a special "Since Uterus Been Gone" playlist in your honour.

La Düsseldork (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 11 November 2015 07:04 (eight years ago) link

Awww thank you for remembering and thinking of me!

Yesterday was my last day of work pre-surgery (surgery is tomorrow, but I'm home today for BOWEL PREP, details of which are surely only appropriate for the TMI thread). My boss, a badass nurse whom I adore, called me into her office as I was headed out and said in grave tones: "be sure to poop the first day back!" Love working for a nurse!

I think an excellent point for this thread is how COMPLETELY BULLSHIT is that we still, in 2015, call the removal of a uterus a HYSTERECTOMY. It really chaps my ass. I've tried to take a stand by calling it a "uterus removal" instead of the accepted medical term. So hilarious substitute lyrics are welcome and really do make me LOL, but let's avoid the stupid "H" word!

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Wednesday, 11 November 2015 12:43 (eight years ago) link

I'll be thinking of you q. I had this surgery back in 2010 and as someone prone to depression anyway I pretty much spent the next year or so in a state of severe anger or severe depression. Not saying that will happen to you, of course. I'll be sending all my good thoughts and vibes your way.

UYD: Oxys, Percs, Vics, Addys, Rit-Dogs and Xannys (sunny successor), Wednesday, 11 November 2015 14:09 (eight years ago) link

good luck quincie!

Uterus B Gone!

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 11 November 2015 17:06 (eight years ago) link

Thanks VG! Sunny, I'm so sorry you had a shitty post-op time. Did you get to keep your ovaries? The plan is that I keep both, which hopefully will help ward off surgically-induced menopausal misery (I've read that the ovaries can be somewhat "sleepy" after the trauma, and some temporary menopausal symptoms may occur). My depression has been well managed on the same med for ages and ages, so my fingers are definitely crossed that uterus yank does not rock the boat on my mental health. I'm fortunate that I never wanted to have kids, so I'm not having to struggle with any loss of fertility issues. I know that is incredibly hard for some women, even those who have had kids and think they were done anyway.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Wednesday, 11 November 2015 17:21 (eight years ago) link

I don't know if it's complete bullshit that we call the removal (-ectomy) or a uterus (hustera) a hysterectomy. We also call a kidney removal a nephrectomy, stomach removal a gastrectomy, etc. There's lotsa Greek used in medicine instead of the vernacular, which often aids in worldwide standardization of medical terminology.

BUT ANYWAY! Good luck tomorrow! Hope you've saved up The Wire or some other show to watch the shit out of in the coming days.

kate78, Thursday, 12 November 2015 00:01 (eight years ago) link

I thought q was referring to "hysteria", in the old sense of the word

just1n3, Thursday, 12 November 2015 02:01 (eight years ago) link

no, "hysteria" is referring to the womb.

kate78, Thursday, 12 November 2015 17:54 (eight years ago) link

Good luck, Q!

I got just under two weeks of dry time before my period started again, so at this rate, I may be eventually cleared to join you (and Sunny) in a state of blissful womblessness.

Although, that doesn't sound too blissful, sunny. I'm sorry. <3

carl agatha, Thursday, 12 November 2015 18:11 (eight years ago) link

Awww, thanks, Carl. Now that I have a 6 year old who knocks his teeth out and throws himself through windows the tide of my feelings is definitely turning :D

UYD: Oxys, Percs, Vics, Addys, Rit-Dogs and Xannys (sunny successor), Thursday, 12 November 2015 19:36 (eight years ago) link

Thanks VG! Sunny, I'm so sorry you had a shitty post-op time. Did you get to keep your ovaries? The plan is that I keep both, which hopefully will help ward off surgically-induced menopausal misery (I've read that the ovaries can be somewhat "sleepy" after the trauma, and some temporary menopausal symptoms may occur). My depression has been well managed on the same med for ages and ages, so my fingers are definitely crossed that uterus yank does not rock the boat on my mental health. I'm fortunate that I never wanted to have kids, so I'm not having to struggle with any loss of fertility issues. I know that is incredibly hard for some women, even those who have had kids and think they were done anyway.

― mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Wednesday, November 11, 2015 11:21 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yes! I did keep my ovaries (side note: one of them is heart shaped lol) and believe me when it comes to period time you feel everything but without the blood or baby making. I don't remember any menopausal symptoms but I was so furious I wasn't really watching for them.

My hysterectomy came about because I developed Adenomyosis (this is where the uterine tissue grows into the muscle of the uterine wall and results in really sharp stabbing pains that never stop) after having a c-section after age 35. All of my anger was directed toward my obgyn because when I was in the hospital to have Henry the original plan was a natural birth but he kept pushing for a c-section because otherwise it would be a 30+ hour labor. After saying no a couple of times we finally said yes and he never warned me this could happen. The c-section at my age is what did it. So I was mad and him and myself for agreeing and sad because no more babbies. I remember being in pre-op before the hysterectomy and it was me and pp. I whispered to him in all serious - "now is our chance run!!" but we didn't. Turns out that of all my obgyn's patients since he started practicing in the early 80s i was only the second case he had ever encountered.

Anyway....thinking of you right now Q. The recovery is easy peasy, physically at least. Just don't exert yourself for a few weeks and you'll be golden.

ps: sorry for not avoiding the H word :)

UYD: Oxys, Percs, Vics, Addys, Rit-Dogs and Xannys (sunny successor), Thursday, 12 November 2015 20:03 (eight years ago) link

Got 99 problems but a uterus ain't one!

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Saturday, 14 November 2015 19:44 (eight years ago) link

uter-less!

kinder, Saturday, 14 November 2015 19:49 (eight years ago) link

hope you are feeling ok x

kinder, Saturday, 14 November 2015 19:50 (eight years ago) link

I'm feeling good! Only rough spot was PACU, where I proceed to get sick all over everything, multiple times. They ended up admitting me overnight so I could stay on the IV for pain and nausea meds. Came home in the evening, had a very decent night of sleep, and now I'm comfortable and bored. Haven't needed so much as a Tylenol. Can get up and down myself, even picked stuff up off the ground without too much discomfort.

Surgeon told spouse that "we got a LOT of stuff out" hahaha

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Saturday, 14 November 2015 19:59 (eight years ago) link

glad to hear of your successfully evicted uterus & minimal discomfort!

JuliaA, Saturday, 14 November 2015 20:37 (eight years ago) link

must feel super great to have "a lot of stuff" out of your body

#amazing #babies #touching (harbl), Saturday, 14 November 2015 20:48 (eight years ago) link

everybody out of the pool

<3 glad yr doing ok quincie!

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 14 November 2015 21:27 (eight years ago) link

Excellent, quincie!

ljubljana, Saturday, 14 November 2015 22:23 (eight years ago) link

some quality jokes here <3 <3 <3

just1n3, Sunday, 15 November 2015 02:39 (eight years ago) link

Yay, Q! So glad it's went swimmingly.

UYD: Oxys, Percs, Vics, Addys, Rit-Dogs and Xannys (sunny successor), Sunday, 15 November 2015 09:36 (eight years ago) link

Congrats, Q!

carl agatha, Sunday, 15 November 2015 13:37 (eight years ago) link

Cheers Q!
Last night I went to a dinner party at which my mr was the only man in attendance and we talked about (among varied other things) the contents of our pubescent diaries and student menstrual blood art (2 of them work at the art school) Not gonna lie, it felt good to be a member of the ruling party for one evening, esp compared with my typical social outings.

La Lechuza (La Lechera), Sunday, 15 November 2015 15:07 (eight years ago) link

Those topics were discussed lightly, I might add, not like in hushed or reverent tones and not with looks of concern on everyone's face

La Lechuza (La Lechera), Sunday, 15 November 2015 15:09 (eight years ago) link

glad you are doing OK q!!

seriously, THIS GUY (daria-g), Sunday, 15 November 2015 17:59 (eight years ago) link

Pretty sure no boys are allowed in here

just1n3, Saturday, 21 November 2015 19:17 (eight years ago) link

thought this was worth posting here
http://www.tinhouse.com/blog/41314/on-pandering.html

La Lechuza (La Lechera), Monday, 23 November 2015 23:31 (eight years ago) link

oh wow. i've read some of his personal writing in the past, and stephen elliott STRONGLY reminded me of someone i dated.

reading this account of him--that pushiness, that entitlement, ugh. so creepy, and disturbingly familiar.

(haven't read past that--need to breathe for a bit)

JuliaA, Tuesday, 24 November 2015 01:46 (eight years ago) link

if you guys want a terrifying body horror/women's health long read, morcellation is a good keyword
http://maisonneuve.org/article/2015/11/10/worth-risk/

MORCELLATION IS A TECHNIQUE for removing large body parts through small incisions. In the past, morcellation was done manually with a scalpel. But now there are special tools for the job called morcellators. They look like dainty power drills, with small, rapidly rotating cylindrical blades tucked inside the tip. Once slipped in through the tiny porthole, the device grasps and then grinds up the parts that need to be extracted, right there inside the abdominal cavity, and sucks the fragments out. Doctors occasionally do this to kidneys, spleens and adrenal glands, but it is in gynecological surgery where morcellation has flourished.

....Morcellators are particularly handy for removing fibroids, those benign growths embedded in the uterine wall, as the growths can be as hard as coconuts and sometimes as large. While an ordinary uterus can usually be slipped out whole through the vagina, a fibroid-studded one often cannot. With the help of morcellators, though, doctors can remove the entire organ through holes the size of quarters.

But there is a drawback to morcellation: because most gynecological surgeons were using the tools without anything around the tissue to contain it, the procedure could leave debris behind. “Small pieces fall into the abdomen,” said Camran Nezhat, a surgeon at Stanford University who helped pioneer minimally invasive and robotic surgery, but who, for exactly this reason, does not approve of open morcellation. To make matters worse, he said, during laparoscopic procedures, the abdomen is inflated with carbon dioxide. “That circulates the cells inside the abdomen,” he explained, making the spread of tissue fragments even more likely. Although doctors do their best to remove the bits left behind—plucking out individual chunks and rinsing the abdominal space thoroughly with a saline solution—there is no way for surgeons to be certain that they have removed every cell

The Fart in Our Stalls (Abbott), Tuesday, 24 November 2015 03:06 (eight years ago) link

Oh man LL I loved that read, esp the end:

Some ideas:

dd

Let’s punch up.

Let us not make people at the margins into scouts or spies for the mainstream. Let us stop asking people to speak for the entire cacophonic segment of humanity that shares their pigmentation, genitalia, or turn-ons.

Let us spend more time in those uncomfortable moments when our privilege is showing. Let us reflect there, let us linger, rather than recoil into the status quo.

Let us continue to count, and talk, and think about the numbers.

Let us name those things that are nameless, as Solnit describes, the way “mansplaining” or “rape culture” or “sexual harassment” were nameless before feminists named them. Let those names sing.

Let us hear the stories we are telling ourselves about ourselves. Let us remember that we become the stories we tell. An illustration: I was talking with the writer Elissa Schappell about how much we are both anticipating Carrie Brownstein’s new book. I asked Elissa what she made of this new trend of memoirs by badass women: Carrie Brownstein, Kim Gordon, Sally Mann, Amy Poehler. Was this trend the result of Patti Smith winning the National Book Award five years ago? Was the trend indicative of a new wave of feminism? Elissa interrupted me. “You keep using that word,” she said. “Trend. It’s not a trend. We are here now. We’re not going anywhere. We are here now.”

Let us embrace a do-it-yourself canon, wherein we each make our own canon filled with what we love to read, what speaks to us and challenges us and opens us up, wherein we can each determine our artistic lineages for ourselves, with curiosity and vigor, rather than trying to shoehorn ourselves into a canon ready made and gifted us by some white fucks at Oxford.

(I will start us off by spending no more of my living breath apologizing for the fact that no, actually, even though I write about the American West, Cormac McCarthy is not a major influence of mine.)

Let us use our words and our gazes to make the invisible visible. Let us tell the truth.

Let us, each of us, write things that are uncategorizable, rather than something that panders to and condones and codifies those categories.

Let us burn this motherfucking system to the ground and build something better.

The Fart in Our Stalls (Abbott), Tuesday, 24 November 2015 04:04 (eight years ago) link

Can we share some stuff we've read l8ly that is in this vein, writerly wise

my favorite is carol tyler whose comics compendium LATE BLOOMER just killed me

The Fart in Our Stalls (Abbott), Tuesday, 24 November 2015 04:06 (eight years ago) link

also one of my kiddos [ok you're not supposed to have favorites but she's a favorite] handed me a copy of without tess and basically forced me to read it and it killed me
like i was yelling and gasping and laughing and crying at almost every page
i'm a loud reader and it made me THE LOUDEST

The Fart in Our Stalls (Abbott), Tuesday, 24 November 2015 04:08 (eight years ago) link

Wow, LL, that linked piece was such a stomach-gut-punch. I think I need to digest it a little, but I'm just kinda tired of digesting things.

(On many levels, I'm just kind of tired of a lot of things. But male entitlement is really kind of at the head of the list of things I'm tired of.)

Without my little notebook of Things I've Read this year (and since my commute changed, I've not read nearly as much, which saddens me) I'm bad at remembering the things I'm reading. I need a list of things I can read on my iPhone while waiting for delayed trains, TBH.

I am actually reading At Hawthorn Time by Melissa Harrison right now and there was this passage that just absolutely hit me. This character, a retired woman who moved to the country because she wants to be an artist, but she hates it, and she's having a bit of a crisis over what's it all for. And she thought to herself something like "art is the way that we actually know for certain that other people are real."

But it's that growling sense of ... annoyance / injustice / something ... how are you ever supposed to develop the sense that *you* are actually real, if the only art you ever encounter is all of that stuff made by (or for) the Serious White Men?

La Düsseldork (Branwell with an N), Tuesday, 24 November 2015 08:57 (eight years ago) link

It feels like... Big Things have been happening in the world.

It's scary.

One wants to (well, really, I should use first person and say "I want to") connect with other people and talk about the Big Things and try to reach understanding and diminish fear. But every single space that is available to me, to talk about, or learn from, with regards to discussing the Big Things is dominated by this guy:

http://captainawkward.com/2015/11/05/786-trouble-dealing-with-male-grad-students-who-take-up-all-the-air/

Or more commonly, about 4 or 5 of This Guy, shouting at one another, and taking up all the air in the room, and no learning happens, and all I do is back out again more quickly than I came in, with this new annoyance compounding the already existent fear, and worry over my own ignorance. And also more detached and alone than before. Which is not a good place to be.

La Düsseldork (Branwell with an N), Tuesday, 24 November 2015 09:08 (eight years ago) link

That speech/essay made me think about Exile in Guyville even more than I normally do (which is kind of a lot under my current circumstances)

La Lechuza (La Lechera), Tuesday, 24 November 2015 14:58 (eight years ago) link

Thanks for posting that link LL, gave me a lot to think about

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 24 November 2015 17:10 (eight years ago) link

fuuuuuuuck that morcellation thing is HORRIFIC. i guess i never thought too much about how a uterus actually exits the body, but the idea of it being... dragged through the vagina just makes me wanna clench my thighs and shiver with terror.

just1n3, Tuesday, 24 November 2015 20:47 (eight years ago) link

My uterus existed the body via my vagina, but no morcellation. My surgeon doesn't do morcellation--if the uterus can't come out via the vagina (because of its size or some other anatomical factor), he opens up a bikini line incision and lifts it out that way. Morcellation sounds like an insurance company/hospital dream--a way to make what would otherwise be a more resource-intensive surgery a "minimally invasive" surgery. A little roto-rooting, and send that lady home the same day!

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Tuesday, 24 November 2015 21:34 (eight years ago) link

Made me think of Tetsuo Iron Man! D:

The Fart in Our Stalls (Abbott), Wednesday, 25 November 2015 00:14 (eight years ago) link

fuck i guess i just stupidly assumed it was like getting your appendix out.

just1n3, Wednesday, 25 November 2015 00:30 (eight years ago) link

that reminds me - i think i'm forgo the tubal ligation thing for the forseeable future, since i managed to get my skin under control and the mirena is less of an issue now.

just1n3, Wednesday, 25 November 2015 00:31 (eight years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJWbF_SjWZs

I love this.

The Fart in Our Stalls (Abbott), Friday, 27 November 2015 00:27 (eight years ago) link

I have become kind of obsessed with this column:

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/nov/28/online-dating-sex-relationships-stella-grey

This one is super-relatable but a bit of an anti-climax after the soap opera of her last few months.

I mean, I haven't dated in ... but it's kind of reassuring in an awful way to know that one's tedious experiences are in no way exceptional.

La Düsseldork (Branwell with an N), Saturday, 28 November 2015 10:20 (eight years ago) link

i love j coolidge too

#amazing #babies #touching (harbl), Saturday, 28 November 2015 14:18 (eight years ago) link

three weeks pass...

happy birthday quincie!

hefty organ euston caucus gash coombes squall who've inferiority (sarahell), Monday, 21 December 2015 08:33 (eight years ago) link

HBQ!

#amazing #babies #touching (harbl), Monday, 21 December 2015 12:23 (eight years ago) link

and also a happy birthday to just1n3

#amazing #babies #touching (harbl), Monday, 21 December 2015 12:24 (eight years ago) link

hb j & q!

JuliaA, Monday, 21 December 2015 15:44 (eight years ago) link

Oh thank you! HB to just1n3, my fellow sag!

I am 42! Firmly Forty. Can no longer get away with thinking of myself as 30-ish.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Monday, 21 December 2015 15:59 (eight years ago) link

happy belated just1ne!

hefty organ euston caucus gash coombes squall who've inferiority (sarahell), Monday, 21 December 2015 19:13 (eight years ago) link

Happy Birthday Quincie & just1in3
awesome-lady-birthdays hooray!

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 21 December 2015 19:19 (eight years ago) link

thanks, women!

off topic: walgreens fleece-lined tights for lyfe - jenny and la lech were OTM

also: gel manis for lyfe. except i don't think i have strong enough nails to make a habit of it. got my first in vegas and cannot stop looking at my nails. spent 5 mins digging through a full backpack and came out chip-free!

just1n3, Wednesday, 23 December 2015 06:25 (eight years ago) link

two weeks pass...

I was talking with a young lady last night who complimented my Feminism is Cool necklace. she told me she really doesn't know much about feminism but thinks she would like it if she did. Now I want to recommend books to her!

tokyo rosemary, Sunday, 10 January 2016 19:38 (eight years ago) link

I always get at a couple compliments from women when I wear that necklace.

tokyo rosemary, Sunday, 10 January 2016 19:40 (eight years ago) link

two weeks pass...

Ugh ugh ugh you know when you are just getting seriously bad vibes from someone - like Gift of Fear "shoulders up around your ears" bad vibes - and you just don't know if no one else is saying so because they just haven't noticed, or they have noticed but they are trying very hard not to engage for fear of setting them off and making things worse?

In most of these situations the correct answer is "stop looking; don't engage; erect a "none of your business" field. I don't know why this one is getting to me. Maybe it's because certain aspects of it remind me really strongly of the situation that happened to me a year ago. Maybe it's guilt because the last time a community I was in harboured a guy that crossed the line from kinda pathetic and a bit creepy to physically dangerous I was literally the last person to know until he assaulted someone in plain sight and I am plagued with guilt over not recognising or believing or doing something (what?) sooner.

Think it's better to put it here, because this is about *my* reaction and I'm owning it than to either confront or to take the passive aggressive option. I'm freaked out a little, for reasons related mostly to me. Is anyone else feeling that, or am I just overreacting because of my own past histories?

Liebe ist kälter als der Todmorden (Branwell with an N), Monday, 25 January 2016 09:07 (eight years ago) link

About someone currently posting to ilx or ... in general, in some aspect of their lives?

sarahell, Monday, 25 January 2016 18:03 (eight years ago) link

Online; I am probably overreacting it is also none of my business and the correct answer is "stop freaking yourself out by reading".

Liebe ist kälter als der Todmorden (Branwell with an N), Monday, 25 January 2016 20:15 (eight years ago) link

it's different when the person is attacking you or someone you care about, imo. There have been times when I've turned a blind eye out of relief because the "target" wasn't me (for a change).

sarahell, Monday, 25 January 2016 21:02 (eight years ago) link

It's someone alleging a bunch of unpleasant stuff about someone who is not here to defend herself, we're hearing only one side of the story and everything about the narrator screams "unreliable narrator" covered in red flags with little icons of red flags printed all over them.

I know why this is bugging me. Because of that guy last year, finding out all of the bizarre lies he spread about me, how he represented the situation as the complete opposite of what actually happened, in similar ways to how this guy is now talking. I literally could not answer back to any of them to say "you are actively delusional and living in Opposite Land" but I just wanted *someone* to stand up and say "I don't believe you. You are lying."

So seeing someone raging through what looks, to me, like a very similar situation is kind of rubbing salt in old scars.

I don't know the whole situation, it's not my place to stand up and yell "I don't believe you; you're lying, and here's a list of all the red flags that creep me out". But it is seriously digging up bad memories of a thing I had hoped I had put behind me. It's putting me in an unpleasant place I don't want to be in any more; that's all.

Liebe ist kälter als der Todmorden (Branwell with an N), Monday, 25 January 2016 21:38 (eight years ago) link

I just feel icky and needed to register my discomfort rather than do anything about it.

I'm gonna go read some Ralf und Florian slash instead; thanks for listening. :)

Liebe ist kälter als der Todmorden (Branwell with an N), Monday, 25 January 2016 21:45 (eight years ago) link

I read something like that recently, and had the same red flags go up.

sarahell, Monday, 25 January 2016 22:03 (eight years ago) link

Me too

This guy is completely beyond the reach of of a sensible talking-to - his side of the story is one enormous red flag and I'm sure if we could get her side it would be a whole lot different and more believable

just1n3, Tuesday, 26 January 2016 02:00 (eight years ago) link

Is it possible to explain what's going on? I'm confused.

La Lechuza (La Lechera), Tuesday, 26 January 2016 02:15 (eight years ago) link

LL I don't want to spell it out because the guy has shown through his online behaviour that he simply does not understand soft noes; he powers straight through hard noes the moment he's drinking; he reacts really badly to being contradicted and Justine is right, he is beyond sensible talking to. I don't want to attract his attention, Christ especially not to this thread, but I just wanted to know if anyone else was getting not a "harmless pathetic dude" vibe but a red flag vibe from his story and his actions and it looks like some people are.

It bothers me - a lot - that her government name is just still sitting out there. It bothers me too when guys respond to him with "yeah, exes be psychos" without any awareness or thought of "holy shit what would it be like to be on the receiving end of the Guy That Doesn't Understand No for 2 years."

Like I said, I am reacting to this so badly because of my own bad experiences. I have no idea what a community should do in response to something like this!

Liebe ist kälter als der Todmorden (Branwell with an N), Tuesday, 26 January 2016 05:56 (eight years ago) link

i messaged LL with more details.

i'm majorly creeped out by his posts, and i honestly think ppl should just not engage him at all, if not outright ban him. it's not like he actually takes in anything anyone else posts, anyway.

it's funny, i instantly knew who you were referring to, bc it's been bothering me so much as well.

just1n3, Tuesday, 26 January 2016 06:39 (eight years ago) link

it's not like he actually takes in anything anyone else posts, anyway.

yeah, that was/is my biggest frustration, the reddest of the red flags.

sarahell, Tuesday, 26 January 2016 06:55 (eight years ago) link

Alright, got it. Thx for writing. Every no is a straight up no imo. Doesn't "understand" no = u are being a menace.

La Lechuza (La Lechera), Tuesday, 26 January 2016 13:45 (eight years ago) link

I did draft out a whole post which was "you might not be intentionally lying, but from your posts it looks like your view is ridiculously distorted" but failed to post it multiple times, b/c I just don't know whether that would be helpful or detrimental to the situation. I kind of feel like dude is mentally ill, surely it's wrong to turf him out? But equally I don't think we can help him, so... I don't know.

emil.y, Tuesday, 26 January 2016 15:21 (eight years ago) link

emil.y I've appreciated a lot of your posts.

This is a hugely emotive topic, so I'm going to try to say what I need to say, making it plain that I am speaking from a place of highly charged emotions, having been on several sides of this.

There are "people who suffer from mental health difficulties who are aware of their own issues and do their best to live within their limitations." There are "people who are seriously mentally ill and not capable of understanding why what they are doing is fucked-up because their thinking is so distorted". Then there are "people who have some seriously fucked-up ideas around women and consent". These are not distinct or discrete groups. I have been in some if not all of these groups, at various stages of illness, so I not saying this as an accusation, but an observation of something I am part of. There are people who are definitely in one group but not in any of the others, but there are also people who swirl all around all three groups. There are also very definitely people in the third group, who use the possibility that they *might* be in one of the other two, to get away with some frankly awful shit.

I have no interest in internet-diagnosing our little friend. I have no interest in working out which if any or all of these groups he belongs to. I am actually not interested in banning people or turfing them out, but I am interested in cleaning up or containing behaviour which is actively harmful to people, especially women, who fall foul of people in group number three.

For personal reasons, it freaks me the fuck out, having a woman (who is not a member of this community or able to defend herself) being put through an internet ringer, with her government name all hanging out there in the breeze (red flag: he asked for his government name to be removed from the post, but not hers!) for a guy of super-questionable motives and even more questionable sanity to just throw all kinds of deeply fucked-up allegations at, and invite strangers to internet-diagnose her, based on what are clearly extremely distorted views by someone who has demonstrably shown an inability to understand, let alone cope with rejection. That freaks me the fuck out.

Maybe the answer is as simple as "have someone (not me) have a word with moderators to edit that post to remove her name" - which is the bare minimum of what I'd expect. (Maybe this has already been done.) Beyond that, I do not know. But I do need to register my "I am really explicitly not OK with what is going on here, and why."

Liebe ist kälter als der Todmorden (Branwell with an N), Tuesday, 26 January 2016 15:55 (eight years ago) link

Now I'm kind of worked up and would prefer not to be, so here is a picture of my boys to lookit and calm me down.

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/photo-of-ralf-hutter-and-florian-schneider-and-kraftwerk-florian-and-picture-id85853934

Liebe ist kälter als der Todmorden (Branwell with an N), Tuesday, 26 January 2016 15:56 (eight years ago) link

Thank you so much for that post, Branwell. You articulated stuff I'd been thinking very well and added a lot extra to think about too.

By the way, I am a mod - I redacted the woman in question's name and I honestly have no idea why I didn't do that immediately, especially because I know I thought I should as soon as I saw it. Completely on me for not taking action sooner. If any of you want to contact me about stuff relating to this or other moderator issues, or if you feel uncomfortable raising something with other mods, please do feel that you can contact me. One word of warning, though, b/c of my own mental health issues I sometimes get avoidant about checking my emails so it is not a 100% guarantee that I will see something even within a month. So maybe give me an oblique 'check your messages' prompt if you do get in contact.

emil.y, Tuesday, 26 January 2016 16:51 (eight years ago) link

yeah i really don't see anything good coming from engaging with him at all. he is absolutely NOT open to any type of real discussion, he just wants agreement and sympathy.

not a lot of ppl have been engaging him, which i think is great.

just1n3, Tuesday, 26 January 2016 17:24 (eight years ago) link

Thanks, Emil.Y!

Liebe ist kälter als der Todmorden (Branwell with an N), Tuesday, 26 January 2016 19:00 (eight years ago) link

(So someone I've known since childhood posted some asinine thing on fb recently about porn and then made a comment in the thread where she said, "This is why we have little blue pills, ladies. Whose victimizing who? Back to porn. More porn please!! Feminists I dare you to soapbox here and now. I'm in the mood." in response to absolutely nothing and she's been driving me nuts so I just posted a big long thing in response, right on her wall, which read in part "Your whole captain save all men/bitches be crazy/I'm only friends with guys thing is so strange and sad. You come off as catty and petty as the women you often insult. You're entitled to choose your own friends for any reason but reinforcing stereotypes that actually contribute to your own marginalization as a woman probably isn't a good idea. None of this makes you seem smart or cool and it's pretty cringe-worthy to witness. You're a smart woman but this crusade you seem to be on often undermines that." Really want to ruin and delete it because it seems mean but I've had enough and UGH. Fully expecting to be deleted and or blocked any min which would be totally OK with me.)

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Tuesday, 26 January 2016 19:57 (eight years ago) link

unfollowing people on facebook is quite a joy. You don't have to deal with the "why did you unfriend the person" drama ... I'd probably just delete the comment and unfollow the annoying person.

sarahell, Tuesday, 26 January 2016 20:01 (eight years ago) link

But she's such an asshat and it feels pretty of good to actually tell her so.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Tuesday, 26 January 2016 20:05 (eight years ago) link

no "of"

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Tuesday, 26 January 2016 20:05 (eight years ago) link

Also, I agree with Branwell and Justine on all of the above but don't really know what to do except not engage.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Tuesday, 26 January 2016 20:06 (eight years ago) link

good for you for telling her off! it's so satisfying!

just1n3, Tuesday, 26 January 2016 20:31 (eight years ago) link

xxp - lol! hit and run.

sarahell, Tuesday, 26 January 2016 20:38 (eight years ago) link

idk, what you said seems pretty otm? :)

it's just fb, she can't harm you for saying it. and if she gets into it just unfollow the thread & you're gold

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 26 January 2016 22:07 (eight years ago) link

There's a time and a place for engaging, if you genuinely think that you can have a dialogue with someone*. But trust me, from experience, having a rant on social media about someone who is driving you nuts can come back to haunt you in really unpleasant ways, no matter how necessary or good it felt to do at the time.

* (My rule on social media used to be: do not enter an argument unless there is a chance, no matter how slim, that *I* might change my mind. Now it's that, plus an additional "enter arguments where you don't think you will change your mind if and only if you have a *relevant* viewpoint which has so far been missing from a conversation, if you think there is a chance that more than 50% of the conversants might be open to hearing this view.")

Mute, unfollow, soft block, block are tools. Use them wisely but often.

Liebe ist kälter als der Todmorden (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 28 January 2016 09:44 (eight years ago) link

can we talk about clothes and shows? specifically clothes to wear while playing shows? i am enjoying thinking about the possibilities but i wondered if y'all had any words of wisdom to share?
i'm not going to wear a skirt, but i have to be comfortable. i want to look cool and powerful and not like a slob. and not like i'm wearing a costume.
it's not that i have a lack of options, i just can't really make up my mind. it's at an arts space and there is no stage.

La Lechuza (La Lechera), Wednesday, 10 February 2016 22:20 (eight years ago) link

leggings & a dope blazer?

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 10 February 2016 22:23 (eight years ago) link

it depends on the show, what you're playing, and of course things like weather and temperature of venue

sarahell, Wednesday, 10 February 2016 22:30 (eight years ago) link

playing in a blazer might be difficult bc of the structure -- i like having bare arms but nothing floppy and no visible pits because it's february
the top has to be kinda snug so it doesn't get in the way but not too snug
i think i am actually enjoying this problem more than i want to solve it and talking about clothes is fun

no lie i saw a guy get totally butt naked (butt was audience-facing) on stage last fall while his band was setting up and he played in his underwear. i'm kind of envious of that kind of bold privilege even if i don't really want to play in my underwear myself.

La Lechuza (La Lechera), Wednesday, 10 February 2016 22:30 (eight years ago) link

sarahell any definite DNWs in your experience?

La Lechuza (La Lechera), Wednesday, 10 February 2016 22:31 (eight years ago) link

last night I DJ-ed an art opening and a wore a dress that had a sparkly top, but didn't care that much about my outfit below the waist because I was behind a table.

sarahell, Wednesday, 10 February 2016 22:31 (eight years ago) link

sheer bodysuit? :D

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 10 February 2016 22:32 (eight years ago) link

for example, i remember wearing a baggy tshirt to a yoga class, which was a mistake that i repeated years later by wearing baggy shorts to a yoga class

i have been dreaming of a sparkly top -- like a sweetheart-neckline sequined stretchy tshirt
mr goodbody suit would be ideal

La Lechuza (La Lechera), Wednesday, 10 February 2016 22:32 (eight years ago) link

mr goodbody suit with sequins i mean

La Lechuza (La Lechera), Wednesday, 10 February 2016 22:33 (eight years ago) link

haha

not really
like i said this is a fun problem

La Lechuza (La Lechera), Wednesday, 10 February 2016 22:33 (eight years ago) link

i do have a long-sleeved green leotard

La Lechuza (La Lechera), Wednesday, 10 February 2016 22:36 (eight years ago) link

omg i was just going to say leotard

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 10 February 2016 22:37 (eight years ago) link

i think my problem is that my first instinct is to dress like i'm in the circus :-/
probably best to go with something unshiny

La Lechuza (La Lechera), Wednesday, 10 February 2016 22:44 (eight years ago) link

in terms of playing drums? It depends on how "hard" you are playing. If I was playing like Mo Tucker or something, it wouldn't really matter, because that's pretty low-impact physically, but if I was really "going for it" these would be my dress tips:

3/4" sleeves or shorter
top: loose-fitting or if tighter, no non-stretchy fabrics that are tight in the shoulders or upper arms.
nothing itchy or with ribbon ties.
nothing binding in the neck.
i generally go for a strapless bra, because I suck at adjusting the straps of my bras, i guess (i have gotten distracted by bra strap slippage during a gig)
no top or dress that's dry-clean only
no tight skirts that go below the knee (I don't really care if I have to hitch my skirt up to play, the kick and snare cover the crotch)
no long wide-legged pants (they can easily catch in the kick drum beater)
comfortable shoes or you can play barefoot or just in socks (I have friends that swear by no shoes) -- the importance of footwear choice largely depends on how fast you have to play kick or hi-hat -- if you're not in super fast jazz or blast beat territory, it's not as "contentious" a subject

sarahell, Wednesday, 10 February 2016 22:45 (eight years ago) link

just figure that if you're playing a standard drum set configured in the standard way, people are only gonna see you from the waist up. maybe boobs up depending on rack tom placement.

sarahell, Wednesday, 10 February 2016 22:49 (eight years ago) link

yes! def no binding, ribbons, neck shit, itchy shit, wide-legged pants (they make me look like a troll), or boots that aren't snug to the leg. skirts are probably ok if they're not snug. i don't wear heels so that's not a prob.

i have some ideas. this helps. mostly i'm looking forward to it!! i'm not anywhere near blast beats or super fast jazz so no prob there. also i am v short so i'll probably just be a neck and a head. that's ok with me!

La Lechuza (La Lechera), Wednesday, 10 February 2016 22:59 (eight years ago) link

it helps if your shoes aren't heavy. I remember going from boots to just light leather sneakers, (Zach Hill wears converse fyi) and it really helped with leg fatigue.

like I was just thinking about the parts of my body that are most engaged when drumming and those are: hands, wrists, shoulder/upper arm, feet and ankles, and to a certain extent neck and waist movement is involved.

sarahell, Wednesday, 10 February 2016 23:02 (eight years ago) link

also if something can fall off, don't wear it or secure it tightly: scarves, capes, wigs, masks (have dealt with all of these)

sarahell, Wednesday, 10 February 2016 23:03 (eight years ago) link

i'm prob just gonna wear the shoes i practice in, which are pretty light. and super ugly! they're grey orthopedic shoes like not quite SAS oxfords but close

no wigs/masks/capes this time…maybe later

La Lechuza (La Lechera), Wednesday, 10 February 2016 23:07 (eight years ago) link

The only gig clothes advice I have to give is: DO NOT WEAR FLAPPY SLEEVES.

Seriously, the first time I did a proper "out of the house" gig, I dressed up and wore this amazing paisley shirt with super-wide draping cuffs with ruffles that spilled elegantly all over the place. I thought, you know, Jimi Hendrix wore this kind of thing, so it will be OK to wear onstage, right?

NOPE. All those psychedelic dudes wore ruffled trailing sleeves in PHOTO SHOOTS. On stage, they wore more SENSIBLE sleeves which did not interfere with the STRINGS of their guitars.

So I think you already have "something without sleeves" on your list but still, I would definitely like to second that.

Möbius the Stripper (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 11 February 2016 08:22 (eight years ago) link

three weeks pass...

I just had my period 2 weeks ago & now nature has seen fit to give me a lighter "bonus" period

apparently this is a thing that happens

ugh wtf

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 3 March 2016 19:34 (eight years ago) link

Oh, I get those sometimes! They are fun*.

*By fun I mean incredibly painful, messy and leave you feeling like you've got no bones anaemic.

(For me, it's usually happened when my cycle was kind of resetting itself after spending a long time with someone who was in the pill or pregnant.)

Möbius the Stripper (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 3 March 2016 19:49 (eight years ago) link

yeah i read that it can also be caused by drop in hormones etc

it's not super painful thankfully but it at least explains my bloating & endless trips to the bathroom today

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 3 March 2016 20:10 (eight years ago) link

oof

I get "spotting" from time to time, sometimes w bloating/pain/other side effects, and a while after I last came off the pill I had a period which was p. light but seemed to go on foreverrrrr and keep resuming a day or two later every time I thought it had stopped. but nothing on that scale, it sounds horrible. bad luck, hope it goes away soon

also, "no bones anaemic" reminded me: if I talked about periods featuring a draining* sensation in the idk ovary area would people here have an idea what sensation I'm talking about? lately I have had a similar draining feeling elsewhere and I don't know how to describe it but I don't think that description is really going to help. especially not if I see a male doctor. just wondering

(* prob just my mind being a combination of overdramatic yet also overly literal)

also also I would like to thank anyone who still has the patience to counter fedora-isms on the Sw*ns thread (obv not just women but) because jfc

a passing spacecadet, Thursday, 3 March 2016 22:53 (eight years ago) link

...yeah I regret even mentioning that candyman here. don't go looking if you hadn't already. or even if you had.

I am tired as hell and should stop talking nonsense on the internet and go to bed.

a passing spacecadet, Thursday, 3 March 2016 22:59 (eight years ago) link

there are only two real jerks on that thread + two kinda jerks, everyone else is cool

just1n3, Thursday, 3 March 2016 23:44 (eight years ago) link

if I talked about periods featuring a draining* sensation in the idk ovary area would people here have an idea what sensation I'm talking about?

Mmmmmaybe? Sometimes on the day before/first day of my period I have a sort of heavy feeling? Like my belly is trying to get lower to the ground than the rest of my body. I think of it as a "gravid" feeling even tho I'm not, yknow, pregnant. Maybe that has something to do w word association with "gravity" idk

If authoritarianism is Romania's ironing board, then (in orbit), Thursday, 3 March 2016 23:52 (eight years ago) link

I am struggling w some of my bosses who treat me poorly and micromanage me. I have noticed that I have a program partner in a similar position to me but who is a man, and they don't treat him the same way. I'm sure his gender is part of it but probably there's also the fact that since his contract depends on their approval, he never says "No" to anything they want. But I'm p sure part of it is also that he's a manly man.

If authoritarianism is Romania's ironing board, then (in orbit), Thursday, 3 March 2016 23:56 (eight years ago) link

Re clothes! Maybe a full skirt that is party-like? My job is near a Rainbow store, which is one of the cheap'n'cheerful teenage girl chains, do they have them in other cities? They always have fun, silly, and also body-conscious things.

http://www.rainbowshops.com/juniors-skirts/juniors-skirts,default,sc.html

If authoritarianism is Romania's ironing board, then (in orbit), Friday, 4 March 2016 00:00 (eight years ago) link

rainbow is all over baltimore but only in poor places. i didn't think it would be the same store but the logo looks exactly the same. i think it's clothes for everyone, not just girls? i was surprised it existed elsewhere.

#amazing #babies #touching (harbl), Friday, 4 March 2016 00:10 (eight years ago) link

sidebar: right after I said "oh nbd its not painful" i went out for lunch and omg woooorst cramps, had to literally run for a bathroom bc cramp-diarrhea

fuck you ovaries hate u so much rn

cramps have passed now, yay

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 4 March 2016 00:18 (eight years ago) link

So far the only downside to having ovaries but no uterus is that whenever I feel "off" I wonder if it is PMS, but I never get the actual M to confirm my suspicions.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 4 March 2016 00:34 (eight years ago) link

You ever wonder why you have the most digestive discomfort before/during your period? Apparently it's bc the hormonal messages that tell your uterus to let it all go also tangentially hit your digestive apparatus? Well now that a million things upset my digestion, sometimes the messages that tell my INTESTINES to clear the floor also hit my uterus. So I can spot when I'm feeling sick, which is just the worst of both worlds.

I hear my body's messages so much more clearly now than back when I could eat foods like a normal person.

If authoritarianism is Romania's ironing board, then (in orbit), Friday, 4 March 2016 03:03 (eight years ago) link

wow i didnt know that

weird!

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 4 March 2016 03:05 (eight years ago) link

this is gonna sound so corny but i was in an improv scene where i got to play some fallopian tubes
it was awesome

no one in particular (Abbott), Friday, 4 March 2016 04:55 (eight years ago) link

:D

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 4 March 2016 05:28 (eight years ago) link

hmm thanks io, I had noticed the connection in the most obvious direction but not known why, and I think I have also noticed it going the other way but just gone "huh I have crazy hormones which hate me" (it often feels that way)

it is my guts that are giving me the mysterious slow, draining, stuff-is-leaching-out-of-me feeling that I also get during my period btw </tmi>

I see a gut dr later today but the symptoms which originally got me referred have stopped so I am just going to be like "hi I'm fine, well sometimes stuff hurts in a variety of random locations but I don't recall exactly where so we're not really going to solve any mysteries there"

a passing spacecadet, Friday, 4 March 2016 09:07 (eight years ago) link

has carl agatha not been around very much recently?

kinder, Friday, 4 March 2016 09:36 (eight years ago) link

This is making me wonder which way my symptoms are going! Because I was always known for having a stomach of IRON. But over the past 5 years, since hitting 40 my period has been getting harsher and more irregular (more of them, unfortunately, not less). And now my gut is way more cranky than it ever was (I've been trying to work out what food or drink causes the, erm, operating system core-dump and reset) and now I'm wondering, OMG what if it's not food at all, but hormones going to the wrong place?

Möbius the Stripper (Branwell with an N), Friday, 4 March 2016 09:39 (eight years ago) link

xp - io, the show was last friday. i went with some old standards and i was comfortable/looked alright. i've been shopping at rainbow-like stores since i was in high school -- you can find some surprisingly long-lasting garments as long as you don't wear them that much. i still wear two dresses i got at a mall store (like Deb or something) back in the early 90s. i wore one of them last week! cute/mildly trashy clothes that don't break the bank = my kind of store even though the clothes are inevitably made by sad hungry children.

in other news, i hadn't been paying much attention to my cycle and i am pleased/shocked to report that i played the show at the peak of pms and didn't wig out at all. i mean i could feel energy surging through my nervous system but it didn't feel bad. who knows, maybe it gave me added yoni power?

carl is not on ilx much these days, no :(

La Lechuza (La Lechera), Friday, 4 March 2016 13:55 (eight years ago) link

Oh man that thread. :( I keep trying to tell myself not to click in it any more because it is so triggery but it's like a traffic accident.

It's so frustrating, but I know that I don't have the equanimity of mind to participate, and me saying anything would make it worse. But to see the imperviousness to logic in some of these minds. I don't understand how it can be so counterintuitive. Like, the proportion of women in the general population who have experienced sexual assault is usually quoted somewhere between 1 in 4 to 1 in 9. The proportion of women with mental health issues or substance abuse issues who have experienced sexual assault, that rises to something more like 1 in 2. Like, not drawing any conclusions about correlation or causation or anything, but bringing in those kinds of issues means that simple maths, a woman is MORE likely to have experienced sexual assault - yet it's always dragged in to discredit survivors "she's crazy, she's an addict, she's unreliable" - how are you using this to supposedly discredit someone when the numbers game indicates it is statistically at least TWICE as likely?

I mean, yeah, this is just jumping up and down on my own personal issues but yeeeeeeesh. I feel gross and horrible even saying anything about it here, even knowing most of us are on the same page.

Ugh I'm going to go away and lookit something nice until that icky feeling goes away. I'm going to see 1/4 of Kraftwerk (unfortunately not the hott 1/4) tonight so that should be enjoyable at least.

Möbius the Stripper (Branwell with an N), Friday, 4 March 2016 15:22 (eight years ago) link

operating system core-dump and reset

hahaha! I think it's just something that happens with age. Now in my 40s, my system is a lot more sensitive to rich dairy than it was when i was younger: indian food with a lot of ghee, baked goods with a lot of butter, one of my favorite brands of ice cream, some of the tastiest macaroni and cheese

sarahell, Friday, 4 March 2016 16:26 (eight years ago) link

alas

I mean I could probably do with some more incentive to eat better, but... not that kind thanks

also, miss you carl, hope all is well

a passing spacecadet, Friday, 4 March 2016 17:25 (eight years ago) link

which 1/4 of Kraftwerk is touring? (or perhaps you are just going on a date! have fun either way)

a passing spacecadet, Friday, 4 March 2016 17:27 (eight years ago) link

Hahaha OMG yes, I am definitely going on a date with Wolfgang Flür, that is totally what I'm doing tonight, that's my story and I am sticking to it!

(I am over the age of 19 so I think I am a little old for him, but still.)

Rusty Egan has been putting on a selection of Düsseldorf's finest in a weird venue underneath Chelsea Football Ground? It's very odd but the other week, he had Wolfgang's former bandmate Herr Rother so I am not going to complain.

Möbius the Stripper (Branwell with an N), Friday, 4 March 2016 17:36 (eight years ago) link

oh I didn't know it was a series, I don't do London but I was tempted by M. Rother

I bought a book about krautrock in German, I do not dare look at it yet tho as it will be well beyond my meagre German skills, but I just like to own it and delude myself that one day I shall wade my way through it

a passing spacecadet, Friday, 4 March 2016 17:47 (eight years ago) link

oh, no more krautrock in the listings, but ESG in May

a passing spacecadet, Friday, 4 March 2016 17:49 (eight years ago) link

Oh, I wish you'd come! I was all alone at that gig and I could have done with some company for high-quality krautperving! I would have protected you from London's perniciousness.

Which book is it, is it that Electri_City book? I liked the look of it but my German ist sehr schlecht.

Möbius the Stripper (Branwell with an N), Friday, 4 March 2016 17:52 (eight years ago) link

oh, I didn't know about that one! I'll add that to my mental wishlist.

I got "Krautrock" by Henning Dedekind (name is familiar but I haven't yet worked out why), though in the "people also bought..." sidebar there was another one called "Der Klang der Revolt", which looked like a more thorough examination of the cultural background of the time but also much more srs and so even more of a stretch for my German

(when I was last in Germany I bought a cheap book in German, and the shop assistant asked if I'd like a bag and I didn't understand, and I could see her thinking "if you can't answer that, how are you going to read this book?")

a passing spacecadet, Friday, 4 March 2016 18:15 (eight years ago) link

Haha this is what google translate is for! I'm not much beyond looking at the pictures. It's astonishing how much German I have picked up from listening to too much Krautrock, but really it's at the "understand opening instructions on Lidl products" stage not the "read an academic musical tome."

I should read more about the cultural background stuff (fascinated by Beuys and the Creamcheese Club and how they affected the music scene in Düsseldorf) but it's maybe more fun to read Wolfgang gossiping some more.

Möbius the Stripper (Branwell with an N), Friday, 4 March 2016 18:27 (eight years ago) link

would you be interested in a book about Moebius?

sarahell, Friday, 4 March 2016 18:40 (eight years ago) link

APSC, i've been learning spanish using this app called duolingo (also has a great website if you don't want to use the app). i'm not a linguistics expert so i don't know how legit the teaching style is, but i'm finding it super fun and easy, very straight forward, almost like playing a game? anyway, i highly recommend it!

just1n3, Friday, 4 March 2016 18:48 (eight years ago) link

re periods: i've the mirena IUD for almost 18 months now i think, and my period has lightened, the terrible back pain has ceased, but i still get a very dull full-body feeling and wretched food cravings.

just1n3, Friday, 4 March 2016 18:49 (eight years ago) link

i just indulge myself the food cravings -- it's one day a month, occasionally two. It's usually taco bell or sushi and gelato involving salted caramel chips

sarahell, Friday, 4 March 2016 18:56 (eight years ago) link

^^^ I do the same. For me it isn't so much particular cravings as the compulsion to be eating something--anything--at all times for a day or two. I just go with it because hey why not.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 4 March 2016 20:41 (eight years ago) link

Glad to see I'm not the only one with menstrual cycle related digestive issues. At this point, one of signs that I'm going to get my period soon is lots of farting. Sigh.

tokyo rosemary, Friday, 4 March 2016 20:43 (eight years ago) link

Day 2 of my period (when I had one; I still have a cycle so now I just have to guess) I totally have the trots, which my gyn said was a progesterone effect. Her only suggestion was more fiber during that time to, er, bulk things up.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 4 March 2016 20:44 (eight years ago) link

I like duolingo! I was using to brush up on my French. I have to get back to it.

tokyo rosemary, Friday, 4 March 2016 20:46 (eight years ago) link

Someone in the Jezebel comments section mentioned eating carrots, so I'm going to try that.

tokyo rosemary, Friday, 4 March 2016 20:47 (eight years ago) link

i don't get specific cravings either, just a general craving to stuff my face. mine lasts about a week though - starts a couple days before my period. i've been trying not to indulge for that whole time, but fuuuuck i get so sad if i can't eat piles of food! i'm heading towards type 2 diabetes if i don't cut this shit out!

just1n3, Friday, 4 March 2016 21:25 (eight years ago) link

I've not had one in about 2 years. Baby + mini pill now

kinder, Friday, 4 March 2016 22:01 (eight years ago) link

My chin has suddenly become spotty and I'm blaming Mirena, even though it didn't start happening till a couple of months after I got it.

ljubljana, Friday, 4 March 2016 22:17 (eight years ago) link

I was having issues with closed comedones but using a BHA toner in the morning and an AHA cream at night has gotten rid of most of them.

just1n3, Friday, 4 March 2016 23:18 (eight years ago) link

belatedly: yes I would read and probably buy a book about Moebius, in English or German! is there such a thing? might there be such a thing?

I keep starting Duolingo and keeping up with all the things for about 3 days and then forgetting it exists for 6 months again. I have a few reservations (the robot voices make me think "is this actual good natural pronunciation I'm learning here?") but it's p. cool whenever I do remember it exists

a passing spacecadet, Saturday, 5 March 2016 10:27 (eight years ago) link

Wait, I can learn German FROM ROBOTS?!?! Sign me up! (Always wondered how speech synthesis worked with accents - but so much of the pioneering research on speech synthesis was done by Germans I imagine they've got to be quite good by now.)

Turns out that Electri_City book is being published in English in August. That was what the show last night was promoting; and then a half hour presentation from the Düsseldorf tourist board about the music and arts scenes in Düsseldorf and how we should all visit. I'm not even joking.

Yeah, who would be doing the Moebius book? That sounds like a Geeta project? Hell, I would pay money to read a good full-length book on the Düsseldorf/Forst crew by Geeta, including what Roedelius fed his cats for breakfast. Heck, if she could get a comprehensive interview with Herr Schneider, I'd even throw a couple of thousand pounds towards her Kickstarter or whatever. (I bet Claudia S-E has some GREAT stories but no one ever interviews her!)

Möbius the Stripper (Branwell with an N), Saturday, 5 March 2016 11:28 (eight years ago) link

Speaking of the women of Germany, I'd like to know more about Dorothea Raukes, who released an amazing album as Deutsche Wertarbeit. Have never actually heard the other band she was in (Streetmark), dunno if they're also worthwhile?

emil.y, Saturday, 5 March 2016 16:41 (eight years ago) link

That album is so good!! I did not know it was made by a woman! Hi 5 musical women of Germany.

La Lechuza (La Lechera), Saturday, 5 March 2016 17:09 (eight years ago) link

Yeah, who would be doing the Moebius book? That sounds like a Geeta project?

not long before he died, he told her (she wasn't sure if he was joking) that she should write a book about him. It's something she is considering.

sarahell, Saturday, 5 March 2016 18:35 (eight years ago) link

OK I've been thinking about this all morning, and here is the thing: I do not want to read another Krautrock book that is all about dudes. Yes, I know, the musicians in that scene, it was such a sausage party. But the musicians in that scene were not the only people IN that scene. Obviously I have a dog in this fight because I've been researching and trying to write *shudders* fan fiction about that music scene, and it is next to impossible to find information about the women that were involved, behind these tantalising clues that they even exist! I want to know Claudia's side of the story on Roedelius. I want to know about her and Florian's other sister, Tina, who I discovered only recently, did a lot of design for La Düsseldorf, including their logo. I want to know about Claudia and Tina's school friend Anita who dated Klaus Dinger, is the woman's voice all over the first NEU! albums. I want to know about Ann Weiss, who turned Michael Rother on to the Velvet Underground and changed his guitar style forever - oh, and also took most of the photos of NEU! and Harmonia. And speaking of photographers, I want to know about Barbara Niemöller who took most of the photos on early Kraftwerk albums (which often get misattributed to Emil Schult - always wondered how Emil was supposed to have taken the back cover photo of Autobahn when he is in the photo, albeit with Wolfgang's head pasted over the top - answer is, he didn't; Niemöller did.) In Geeta's interview with Rebecca Allen, she jokes that she was the first woman in Klingklang because Florian told her they didn't even let their girlfriends in the place. In which case, how the hell did Niemöller take album cover photos of a studio she wasn't allowed inside? There were all these women in that scene that I know nothing of but their names and vague credits about being photographer or designer, and no more, because in the official story, they're just down as "girlfriend" or "muse".

But hey, that's just my hobby horse about how women get written out of scenes because their roles aren't considered important. And that's the Krautrock book *I* would really like to read, but no one ever writes.

Möbius the Stripper (Branwell with an N), Saturday, 5 March 2016 19:00 (eight years ago) link

I am absolutely with you, would love to see something that reveals the female input into the scene. Also could include artists/musicians who were working contemporaneously but didn't get pigeonholed into "Krautrock", eg the awesome and fascinating collab between Inga Rumpf and Dagmar Krause, or what brought Dolly Holmes to Germany and thus to Emtidi's folk-kraut hybrid....

emil.y, Saturday, 5 March 2016 19:28 (eight years ago) link

seriously.
what about djong yun? last i heard she was alive and living in pyongyang.
and renate knaup was super cool but you're right that there were surely a lot more women around. i would like to hear more about them too.
also this gives me fuel to continue mentally assembling my fantasy supergroup CANNES (haha)

La Lechuza (La Lechera), Saturday, 5 March 2016 19:30 (eight years ago) link

Argh, this is going to turn into one of those things I get so fired up about I start thinking "I could do it", and then a week later all the reasons why I can't will hit me. Like, hi, biography of Jun Togawa except oh yeah I can't speak or read a word of Japanese. ;_;

emil.y, Saturday, 5 March 2016 19:41 (eight years ago) link

i messaged LL with more details.

i'm majorly creeped out by his posts, and i honestly think ppl should just not engage him at all, if not outright ban him. it's not like he actually takes in anything anyone else posts, anyway.

it's funny, i instantly knew who you were referring to, bc it's been bothering me so much as well.

Justine could you the same me, please.

“I hate my wife. She doesn’t even have a dick” (sunny successor), Saturday, 12 March 2016 04:07 (eight years ago) link

fb messaged you, sunny

just1n3, Saturday, 12 March 2016 04:10 (eight years ago) link

Ja, so! Ich lerne Deutsch! I've been doing Duolingo for a week and I swear I'm getting worse. It bothers me that they do no theory at all, they just bark things at you and expect you to pick it up without knowing what the patterns are!!! (I had to go and look it up on a theory-based website what the deal is with the accusative! Because they did not explain it at all.)

But haha I just had to press the turtle for the first time and mein gott, I have NEVER heard a German robot sound so disdainful! "Iiiiiihhhr sssseeeeiiiiit Määääänner!" OK OK I'm just a learner there's no reason to get so snooty with me! Haha!

Sehr Kornisch (Branwell with an N), Saturday, 12 March 2016 08:29 (eight years ago) link

I've been using it for a while for French, and just recently starting using it for Spanish, too. I agree totally, coming at it from a background of learning language from the skeleton out, so to speak. It feels wrong. But! It does encourage me to practice a little daily, which seems key, and after using it for a while I did start to notice increased facility with the language in a unconscious way (like the right verb form just coming to mind, though I didn't really consciously understand the concept of forming it, and the right vocab springing to mind). I'm not sure how helpful or effective it is in the long term.

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Saturday, 12 March 2016 20:39 (eight years ago) link

There's a lot to be said for just sheer repetition! Like honestly the only reason I'm fluent with the (intensely irregular) verb to be is because I have heard Ralf Hütter sing "Ich bin der Muzikant" and "Sie ist ein Model" and "Wir sind die Roboter" a million billion times. I do like over 100 points of practice a day, and I do have to say that it is getting into my head through blunt force repetition, like Interpol. But once we seriously get into tenses and cases, I know I am going to need to back that up with theory.

Sehr Kornisch (Branwell with an N), Saturday, 12 March 2016 21:45 (eight years ago) link

I JUST WANT THE THEORY, MANN. I LOVE LINGUISTIC THEORY!!!

Sehr Kornisch (Branwell with an N), Saturday, 12 March 2016 21:46 (eight years ago) link

You guys this is my main topic of academic and personal study! I'd love to talk about it but typing isn't going to work. Repetition is immeasurably valuable when it comes to learning a skill, and language learning is a skill. Imo.

La Lechuza (La Lechera), Saturday, 12 March 2016 22:05 (eight years ago) link

I think that's exactly why I like duolingo- you just learn sort of intuitively, almost like a child or like immersion. I find myself figuring stuff out on my own, and I think that helps me remember a lot better

just1n3, Sunday, 13 March 2016 06:44 (eight years ago) link

Well. Because I took a year of German at college level, I remember the basic understanding that German has 3 grammatical genders and a metric shit-ton of cases that are mainly expressed in the article. If I didn't remember that, I would be ütterly lost! (Stop adding umlauts to things, iPhone, I'm speaking English now!)

Aren't there studies that show that intuitive language acquisition stops at a certain age, and after that, it's a skill that needs to be learned? Did we discuss that on another thread?

And also I wonder what part neurodiversity plays in this. (I had delayed language acquisition in my first language, which is very Aspergers.) Even when I was in single digits, I remember being taught French in the "repeat things at children until the pick it up" fashion and it was a nightmare, I just couldn't pick it up, though other kids seemed fine. But at the same time, Latin, which was taught in a "charts and tables and grammar and theory" style, I absorbed like a sponge. People are different so no one single teaching style is going to work for all.

Sehr Kornisch (Branwell with an N), Sunday, 13 March 2016 07:30 (eight years ago) link

Is there an ILX leaderboard on Duolingo, or will that not work if we're all learning different languages?

I talk German with German friends on Tumblr, but they're all 30, 40 years ahead of me, ha!

Sehr Kornisch (Branwell with an N), Sunday, 13 March 2016 07:34 (eight years ago) link

That why I specified that it works for me. Formal learning of Japanese got me nowhere. I don't intend to write any academic texts in Spanish but I would like to be able to hold an adult conversation in it, since it's heavily spoken in California.

One thing it's not teaching me is the accent - I can hear it but I can't make my tongue do it. Actually sometimes I can't hear it - sometimes I can't tell if the b is being said like a b, v or w.

just1n3, Sunday, 13 March 2016 08:13 (eight years ago) link

Yeah, sure! I wasn't contradicting you, I was just wondering if that might be a reason why some styles work for some people!

Accents are so difficult to reproduce. The only thing I've found helpful is videos where native speakers physically show you the position your mouth / lips / tongue have to be in. It's weird, I'm fine with Ö but Ü is a struggle. My German friend sent me soundfiles of her saying "Flür! Hütter! Düsseldorf!" and I could hear the difference but couldn't make my mouth do it. Then I watched a video where a guy explained (with a close-up) of how you put your lips further forward for Ü. I feel stupid doing it, but the sound is much more like what Germans do.

"Ch" I am never not going to do like a Cornish "gh" so I give up.

I'm sure there are videos of mouth placement for that weird Spanish B / V thing? I feel stupid doing these exaggerated mouth poses, but until I get the sound, I guess it works? Just do it alone in the bathroom where no one can see you making faces in the mirror!

Sehr Kornisch (Branwell with an N), Sunday, 13 March 2016 09:07 (eight years ago) link

I think the critical period for native language learning is up until about 6 years old iirc.
I find it really hard to learn European languages just from hearing as I need to see it written down for it to go in my memory (I am often poor at determining what people are saying/lyrics though). The few words of Japanese I know that wouldn't work for so I feel like a young kid trying to learn it just from hearing.

kinder, Sunday, 13 March 2016 09:25 (eight years ago) link

La Lech is obviously not only trained but also an active teacher of language so I defer to her, but from my training in TEFL I have to say that 'natural' language use is very much emphasised, and has proven to be most effective for most people. I guess one thing that is different in TEFL is that it is immersion teaching, so trying to explain rules of English in English to people who can't speak English is futile, you have to *show* the rules through practice, whereas an app could do explanation in a student's first language if it wanted to. Different styles of learning is definitely a thing, though - my own (learning not teaching) preference is to concentrate on reading and writing before even attempting to broach speaking and listening, which is not how most people learn best, but it's what I'm more comfortable with.

I'm very tired and probably not expressing myself well, which is doubly ironic for both an English grad and TEFL-qualified person. Oh well.

Also, now I have a smartphone I might actually join you in German Duolingo-ing, Branwell. Would be nice to remember more than just "verschwende deine jugend".

emil.y, Sunday, 13 March 2016 15:21 (eight years ago) link

Accents are so difficult to reproduce. The only thing I've found helpful is videos where native speakers physically show you the position your mouth / lips / tongue have to be in. It's weird, I'm fine with Ö but Ü is a struggle. My German friend sent me soundfiles of her saying "Flür! Hütter! Düsseldorf!" and I could hear the difference but couldn't make my mouth do it. Then I watched a video where a guy explained (with a close-up) of how you put your lips further forward for Ü. I feel stupid doing it, but the sound is much more like what Germans do.

Also I've done this with one-on-one teaching and it definitely feels silly but is very very useful, and also is quite fun if you're comfortable in the student-teacher partnership.

emil.y, Sunday, 13 March 2016 15:24 (eight years ago) link

I am MasonicBoo on there if you want to add me, Emil.y? (I haven't quite worked out the social bit of adding people to a class or a board or whatever.)

((Please don't laugh at how bad my German sucks!!!))

Sehr Kornisch (Branwell with an N), Sunday, 13 March 2016 15:50 (eight years ago) link

I will have to actually d/l the app first but when I do I will add you! (Also my German will be terrible too, I got an A at it for GCSE but have literally never used it after that.)

emil.y, Sunday, 13 March 2016 16:05 (eight years ago) link

I loooove teaching pronunciation because it's light/goofy and physical rather than mental. People have a lot of hang ups/misconceptions/anxiety about lg learning. I enjoy helping them move past it and learn to express themselves effectively. This is why I believe well-trained language teachers have a necessary role in the world.

La Lechuza (La Lechera), Sunday, 13 March 2016 16:13 (eight years ago) link

There's my professional mission statement lol

La Lechuza (La Lechera), Sunday, 13 March 2016 16:13 (eight years ago) link

Last night I was chatting with a guy at a show who is a lapsed drummer. We were having a nice convo, talking about music etc and I asked him a ton of questions about why he stopped playing. Eventually he told me he sat down recently to try to play, couldn't do what he wanted to do, and gave up pissily. I smiled and was like "what it sounds like is you reacted like a baby". He paused and eventually was like "yeah you're right." His frustration was legitimate and expected but his reaction was self-defeating. We loled after that. I felt like I was at work, but not in a bad way.

La Lechuza (La Lechera), Sunday, 13 March 2016 16:19 (eight years ago) link

Sounds like me and whenever I try to write. "WHY AM I NOT JAMES JOYCE ALREADY? EVERYTHING I DO IS TERRIBLE SO WHY BOTHER?"

Uh, you're not Joyce yet because Joyce spent fucking ages on his work and you don't.

emil.y, Sunday, 13 March 2016 16:25 (eight years ago) link

For the record so no one thinks I'm a monster I don't ever tell my students they're acting like babies -- I just meant having that convo about what prevents us from persevering reminded me of being at work.

La Lechuza (La Lechera), Sunday, 13 March 2016 16:30 (eight years ago) link

Emil.y yes, exactly. <3

La Lechuza (La Lechera), Sunday, 13 March 2016 16:32 (eight years ago) link

I have fond memories of my GCSE French teacher pulling ridiculous faces and making us all say "pneu" and a few other words in the most exaggerated manner possible, would be all for someone teaching me the secrets of umlauts this way

(I am not very good at hearing the difference, still worse at saying the difference, and Düsseldorf in particular is one word where I swear the difference I usually listen for isn't even there, dunno if that's a peculiarity of that word or if the difference I think I'm hearing isn't even the right one)

anyway everyone please learn German and post lots of fun thoughts and links on ILX's The German language thread

I love that Deutsche Wertarbeit album! Would love to know more about her, hear anything else she did, read a less dude-focussed book, read anything Geeta writes on the subject, etc...

a passing spacecadet, Sunday, 13 March 2016 16:51 (eight years ago) link

I added you, branwell! I think I'm douxjesus666 on duolingo.

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 15 March 2016 02:49 (eight years ago) link

I will install duolingo this weekend, I will I will. I think it would be good for me to have an aim, even if only small, to get me out of this malaise-in-stasis. Feeling incredibly shitty but with no real focus to be able to express on the mental illness threads so am posting irrelevantly here as a sort of refuge. Sorry.

emil.y, Thursday, 17 March 2016 16:47 (eight years ago) link

having an aim is essential!
has anyone tried those period undies? http://www.shethinx.com/
i am thinking about trying them. last time i did this with a period product (the product known as "instead") i almost wound up in the ER but i doubt anything that horrible could happen with period undies.

La Lechuza (La Lechera), Thursday, 17 March 2016 17:22 (eight years ago) link

I have no experience with them, but they look pretty good. I have incredibly heavy periods so would probably be good for night time use in addition to sanitary towels which often aren't actually enough for a full sleep (I have never ever used tampons b/c toxic shock paranoia).

emil.y, Thursday, 17 March 2016 18:38 (eight years ago) link

I used to use tampons but started to think they were prolonging the event by plugging rather than absorbing. If I try the undies I'll report back.

La Lechuza (La Lechera), Thursday, 17 March 2016 18:55 (eight years ago) link

duolinguists, if a soybombyx follows/friends you, it's me!

tokyo rosemary, Friday, 18 March 2016 15:27 (eight years ago) link

I have followed you both back.

Annoyed by Duolingo's new habit of springing new words in the "match pairs" or review sections when it has never actually told you what they mean. And now I'm into verbs, I really really keenly feel the need for some grammar. But I get no grammar, just cute dolphin pics. :(

Sehr Kornisch (Branwell with an N), Monday, 21 March 2016 08:24 (eight years ago) link

I have joined as La_Duffeldorf (turns out I actually had an old account, probably tried to learn Spanish for going to Primavera and then forgot about it, though it doesn't seem to have any info on what I was doing before).

Might try to search out a good German grammar site too for B & the other of us who like theory as well as practice. Wish I'd bought that TEFL book which gives an overview of points of divergence from English in various languages, it's written to know what your student might struggle with but in the process gives some straightforward tips about grammar, pronunciation etc. Was one of my favourite texts during the course b/c it really allowed me to dip in to my curiosity about languages and see patterns both micro and macro.

emil.y, Monday, 21 March 2016 16:14 (eight years ago) link

That sounds like a really interesting book.

I am never going to get my head around German gender. :-/ Not to mention there really is no way to do gender neutral language in German. Singular "they" already is She.

Sehr Kornisch (Branwell with an N), Tuesday, 22 March 2016 08:15 (eight years ago) link

Turns out it's not that expensive (in comparison to most textbooks), so I think I am going to pick a copy up even though I'm not teaching at the moment: Learner English

In some ways I like that 'Sie' is both she and they, as a default to the feminine is pretty cool, considering masculinity is the traditional baseline for discourse in English. However, I totally get that it's shit not to have gender neutral possibilities (unless you use 'that'? I do know someone who identifies as 'it' but I think a lot of people wouldn't want to be pigeonholed into that). Also gender of words drove me crazy at school, it's all so arbitrary, French and German don't even agree, how are we meant to remember and what is even the point?!

emil.y, Tuesday, 22 March 2016 15:32 (eight years ago) link

hey yall im participating in the NNAF bowlathon for reproductive justice and i am shameless. i'm bowling for richmond reproductive freedom project who are doing AMAZING world-changing work. i'm offering rewards if people donate $! mixtapes, hand-knitted stuff, and en vogue tshirts. other things negotiable. i've met my goal but am currently trying to take over the world tbqqh.
check it out:
my blog: http://clbrtr.tumblr.com/post/141563695392/help-me-raise-for-reproductive-justice
personal page on bowlathon site: http://bowlathon.nnaf.org/participantpage.asp?userid=14519#.Vvf7oOIrLIV

thank you for reading!

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Sunday, 27 March 2016 15:26 (eight years ago) link

Girls, I'm in a bad place. Someone in my life that I'm very close to is sick, in a potentially terminal way. Sometimes ILX is really supportive towards people in situations like this, but for whatever reason, I'm not one of the people that ILX chooses to be support-y or understand-y towards, most of the time, so I don't really feel comfortable going into it here.

So I'm stretched really thin, emotionally, and I have no wiggle-room for dealing with fuckery. And boy, did the fuckery hit hard, at exactly the wrong time. I've had a lifetime of being shamed and mocked, by dudes, for ~liking music in the wrong way~ (read: being a girl who has the audacity to like music in public) and usually I will fight them on this, but right now I am so brittle and upset over the other thing, the Big Thing, that I don't have the emotional room to engage with anything without screaming or bursting into tears.

This is not a nice place to be right now, so having a bully jumping up and down on my sore spot is really not something I have the capacity to deal with. I don't want to do a flounce, but I'm in a really bad place, and this place is making it worse at the moment. Take care, girls.

Sehr Kornisch (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 7 April 2016 07:54 (eight years ago) link

Really sorry to hear that... I've been blissfully unaware of any recent threads of twattery and i'm going to keep it that way. Hope you and they have support irl.

kinder, Thursday, 7 April 2016 11:51 (eight years ago) link

Really sorry to hear this, Branwell. Hope you and your person do as well as you can, and I'm thinking of you.

FWIW, I've just seen your post on the WGW thread and you are bang on the money there. Have literally no idea why people think that sort of thread is funny or contributes anything worthwhile to the boards.

emil.y, Thursday, 7 April 2016 11:53 (eight years ago) link

Take care Branwell, best wishes for you and your someone.

That whole thread is totally baffling but I guess at least if it keeps being bumped I should eventually remember to get round to an album I am already pretty sure I'll love. (There would be better ways to achieve this though obv)

a passing spacecadet, Thursday, 7 April 2016 12:55 (eight years ago) link

branwell, i'm so sorry to hear that. i don't know what's up w/the fuckery, but i can relate to the excruciating sadness of a dear friend being terminally ill--i went through that with my oldest friend a month ago. mentioned it on one of the cancer threads when he was diagnosed but i don't really post much here, so i didn't mention it otherwise. tbh, i couldn't handle posting about it--there was just this blinking cursor, and no words.

i hope that the potentially terminal part of it becomes not-terminal. it's utterly heartbreaking to lose someone you're close to, to even think about it. it's a really awful and gut-wrenching place to be. take good care of yourself.

JuliaA, Thursday, 7 April 2016 13:54 (eight years ago) link

I'm not one of the people that ILX chooses to be support-y or understand-y towards, most of the time, so I don't really feel comfortable going into it here.

I'm sorry you feel that way, in that, I know the feeling, and it really sucks. You've always struck me as a resilient person, and I bet your friend is fortunate that you are there for them.

sarahell, Thursday, 7 April 2016 17:10 (eight years ago) link

otm

best thoughts to you & yr friend

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 7 April 2016 22:34 (eight years ago) link

im so sorry to hear it branwell, and im thinking of you and sending all the positivity your and your friend's way.

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Saturday, 9 April 2016 16:50 (eight years ago) link

four weeks pass...

Hey girls. My "person" has had their operation, and the prognosis is good.

Oh, let's stop with the vagueness. The "person" is my Mother, and she has cancer. She had the offending organ removed this week, and the oncologist says that it was very early, stage 1, so the signs are good, and that's really positive, but it's a waiting game to see if it resurfaces or spreads; though the initial indication is that she will make a full recovery. You all know how close I am to my Mum, so I hope you understand how worrying and upsetting and destabilising this has been for me. I knew I was upset and wound up, but I didn't even realise to tense and on-edge and freaking-out-over-everything I had been until it was over, and I could breathe again. Compounded by the fact of family difficulties (knowing that certain members of my family like to surveil my social media, and use any information gleaned for super-negative purposes) so I couldn't even talk about it, or blow off steam in my usual manner.

But sometimes having a "support" removed makes you realise that it is not a support at all. What happened on that ILM thread was toxic, grotesque and utterly uncalledfor. There's no excuse for that shit, ever. But to be exposed to that level of toxicity and grossness ON THE MORNING I FOUND OUT MY MOTHER HAD CANCER was I guess kind of a no-going-back moment, for me. It's not fun, and there's nothing that can make that shit worth it.

Thanks for the good thoughts. I'm going to take care of my Mother - and myself. This whole thing made me go to the doctor for the first time in three years, so there's that. Take care of yourselves. x

Sehr Kornisch (Branwell with an N), Sunday, 8 May 2016 10:26 (seven years ago) link

Love to you, Branwell. I definitely understand your reasoning. If you want to keep in touch with me for chats or venting or anything, I'm on twitter and my ilx mail should work. No pressure to do so, obvs.

emil.y, Sunday, 8 May 2016 12:53 (seven years ago) link

<3 to your mom, and I hope you all have a peaceful and easy go of it

no one in particular (Abbott), Monday, 9 May 2016 04:01 (seven years ago) link

I hated my mom so much when I was a teen and now she is the only thick & thin support I have.

no one in particular (Abbott), Monday, 9 May 2016 04:01 (seven years ago) link

Branwell - sending all the love to you. <3<3<3

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Monday, 9 May 2016 17:51 (seven years ago) link

one month passes...

hi y'all
hope all is well

1) how about this http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/pelvic-exams-for-healthy-women-have-no-proven-benefit-u-s-panel-says/
2) i am volunteering for GR!Chicago and am super excited about it
3) sarahell and i hung out! i enjoyed it a lot and it was really fun to talk with her about drumming. i have thought back to the conversation numerous times since then.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 29 June 2016 13:47 (seven years ago) link

im so excited youre volunteering for GR!Chicago!!!!

im working at GR!RVA for the first time this year and its weird (but cool) to be at a new camp

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Thursday, 30 June 2016 21:40 (seven years ago) link

Yeah I'm really psyched about it. I even volunteered for load-in because I know it'll be fun manual labor that helps me practice something I need to practice. Totes into the vibe & glad to be putting my teaching skills to use while learning a ton at the same time. Can't wait!!

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 30 June 2016 21:55 (seven years ago) link

I actually had a moment of extreme gratitude thinking about inclusive spaces like GR and DDPP being in more small cities than you'd expect.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 30 June 2016 22:00 (seven years ago) link

i got voted onto the board of the GRCA (girls rock camp alliance) this year (which is a huge trip for me by itself) - it's amazing how many camps there are, and new ones popping up all the time. camps in peru, sweden, iceland, poland...

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Saturday, 2 July 2016 20:54 (seven years ago) link

S. Henn1es -- whom we were talking about at that bar just got a significant music grant and I thought of you! I'm glad we finally met! Next time, we will make time for thrift shopping and jam session.

sarahell, Saturday, 2 July 2016 23:25 (seven years ago) link

yeeeess
to follow up on that convo - i got a new bass pedal (single, not double) and it has made a lot of difference, so glad i bought it! also i bought the floor model so i got 10% off :)
also just heard about the abovementioned grant
how about that!!

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 8 July 2016 20:52 (seven years ago) link

feel like i need to tell someone this

i just went out to a show where i saw this really tall metalhead dude who had young damon albarn's face?? its possible someone specifically designed this as an elaborate hologram/trap to bring me down

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Monday, 11 July 2016 05:48 (seven years ago) link

haha! i know that feeling.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, 11 July 2016 12:44 (seven years ago) link

oh my god guys i just want to say i love maria bamford and i loved lady dynamite
and related a little too hard to it

the lava-staring club (Abbott), Monday, 11 July 2016 22:07 (seven years ago) link

i need to watch it, i really love her

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 12 July 2016 02:46 (seven years ago) link

two weeks pass...

http://www.theonion.com/article/man-entirely-different-misogynist-online-real-life-53328

^^this cracked me up, after years of being told "he's different irl" about dudes who are dickbags to me online, this is basically exactly the picture i imagined of them irl

the lava-staring club (Abbott), Tuesday, 26 July 2016 17:27 (seven years ago) link

omg i love that the location is chattanooga because that little burg is a hotbed of nazi-cosplaying trolls tbh

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 26 July 2016 21:47 (seven years ago) link

two weeks pass...

oh man i have been on a 'long form' improv team since jan. that is me and 6 dudes and one other woman
already established before i was in it
tbh when i first started on the team i was like 'YOU GUYS CAN'T JUST LIKE MAKE ME A MOM IN EVERY SCENE'
they know i am an sjw feminist whatever
anyway i can't tell if i just need a break or if i am like 'fuck the dudes on this team' but i want to quit this team even tho i love doing that untrendy ol' 'prov

- a dude was drunk calling/texting/messaging to say how much he loves me, how he is in love w/me, would do anything for me, feelings NOT reciprocal, would not stop even tho i was very clear in saying, unflinchingly,'that s not ok please stop' --- apparently he has been doing this to every woman at the theater for like 2.5 years...why not give deal w/him if he is a known problem ??

- the one like BIG rule in improv is basically 'don't straight up shoot the fuck down everything the other ppl set up' aka 'yes, and...' --- i came on as a character in a scene and the guys on stage said, 'oh she's crazy don't listen to anything she says' and i said, like trying to keep it a real reaction, 'stop gaslighting me,' and they said, 'we're not gaslamping you' 'i said gaslighting' 'right we're not gaslamping' like the perfect little synecdoche of being on this team, getting gaslighted about the word 'gaslighting'

- we did a show 2 weeks ago which our coach said was 'the only show he was ever ashamed of' because it was 'a half hour of shitting on women,' which was true...and not fun to be the woman representing that in scenes, like...no really bad stuff you hear about like being a literal sex object on stage but just getting called stupid, fat, ugly, in every scene...a running gag where a guy barfed after everything i said or every time he looked at me...a scene in which a guy was comparing the other woman to an oreo who had been licked too many times...how i tried to deal with this (bcz you can't walk off midshow and just be like 'fuck this'), is i did a scene as robert plant talking to the oreo guy, saying i loved comparing women to objects like cars so maybe he could help me write some new songs, and THAT hurt everyone's feelings...gosh,,,'i'm a feminist, i wasn't trying to objectify anyone'

typing this all up i am definitely like 'oh yeah i should just peace out'

the lava-staring club (Abbott), Sunday, 14 August 2016 05:46 (seven years ago) link

fuuuuucking hell those dudes are really on some 10th grade level ish

no shame in peacing out of that nightmare

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 14 August 2016 05:57 (seven years ago) link

Some thoughts: I think that not just peacing out but rage-quitting would be totally justified. But, when you go...

1) call or email the other woman and see if she's up for some 2-person double act comedy riffing

2) if the coach was that embarrassed, hit them up, to see if they know any ppl who are not ütter buffoons who would be up for starting an actually funny improv group?

Hey girls. Some catch-up:

1) Looks like my Mum beat cancer. Yay! She's coming to spend Christmas with me (well in a fancy hotel near me).

2) so it turns out fibroids are only the second worst pain a human body can produce. Number one? Kidney stones. Ow ow ow ow ow.

3) has the thread talked about the Ghostbusters reboot? Like at all? Specifically, on a level of 1 to Garden Party at Sissinghurst, how gay are we for Dr J Holtzmann? I did not know it was possible to somehow combine Lesbian Hair and Physicist Hair but fuck yeah can we get some radioactivity in the air for you and me, baby?

Sehr Kornisch (Branwell with an N), Sunday, 14 August 2016 06:31 (seven years ago) link

Abbs it's hard enough to find and join stuff like that without it constantly shitting all over you, it's like they've taken that away from you which is totally UNFAIR but agree that it would be good to see if you can find something without the douches?

B: 1) great news!
2) I have indeed heard that. Hope you get it sorted soon.
3) not seen but my friend wrote a big rant on facebook about 'I don't know why it's being lauded as a feminist statement' which I didn't think it was (also don't judge things on marketing) but she found it UNFUNNY

Despite it being a one-joke affair I am enjoying @manwhohasitall on twitter and while I'm at it I think some of this thread might enjoy @paprbckparadise

kinder, Sunday, 14 August 2016 14:06 (seven years ago) link

ABBZ -- re: harassment -- there's an org here that is trying to spread to other cities and may be of some help to you. i read about it in the local weekly and here is their website http://www.goodnightoutcampaign.org

re your troupe members -- idk what to do but to commiserate. the people i have been playing with are great, but we were a last minute add to a show on wednesday (i didn't look up who else was playing before agreeing, it was my first time playing a real nighttime show with this band, i was excited!). when i found out the names of the other bands i was kind of disappointed and depressed (i am sparing details because this is a public forum but you know how to find me for deets) anyway, the result was that 2/3 of the other bands we played with talked about their dicks on stage. they did not make any conversation whatsoever with any of us off stage. (personal policy: as far as talking about yr dick goes, talking about it from the stage prevents your audience from being able to respond if they'd prefer not to hear about it and therefore is not acceptable. in face to face conversation, a person would have the opportunity to respond.) on the upside, i have never seen or heard of any of these people before and don't expect to ever see them again.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Sunday, 14 August 2016 14:21 (seven years ago) link

glad to hear about your mom branwell! it's good to hear positive stories about people crushing c_____r instead of the other way around

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Sunday, 14 August 2016 14:41 (seven years ago) link

hey thanks y'all, i have like 3 other teams i am on that do not make me angry so i will just stick to them

B'well, grats to you and your mom! <3

the lava-staring club (Abbott), Sunday, 14 August 2016 20:01 (seven years ago) link

"I did not know it was possible to somehow combine Lesbian Hair and Physicist Hair but fuck yeah can we get some radioactivity in the air for you and me, baby?"

I want to BE her oh my jod.
I came into gbusters w low expectations but it blew them out of the water. so fun and funny and exciting! and what a unique disturbing bad guy! i laughed so hard! and i loved the times square scene, seeing emmanuelle and what not in the background....very awesome

the lava-staring club (Abbott), Sunday, 14 August 2016 20:02 (seven years ago) link

i loved leslie jones so hard, people made it sound like she was gonna be 'boo a madea halloween' but she was just a fucking awesome woman is what

the lava-staring club (Abbott), Sunday, 14 August 2016 20:05 (seven years ago) link

also just to say some positive stuff in my silly world of provs, here is an indie team we made that i am v proud of: https://www.instagram.com/p/BI0RZ8zjDjo/?taken-by=tucsonimprov

we did kind of weird scenes (we're all just weird people) and then ended them by someone coming out like rod serling finishing a twilight zone episode, summarizing the scene and adding an ironic twist/punchline. our walk on music was the theme from suspiria. people kind of don't know what the fuck is happening at first but after we get a lot of praise. and it's just fucking fun. and all our injokes are about mayor de blasio and not our failed sex lives.

the lava-staring club (Abbott), Sunday, 14 August 2016 20:12 (seven years ago) link

i got asked to do a panel on being a woman in comedy!!!

i said 'nothing says 'women are funny' like a panel discussion'

then i asked if i could just pee on a photo of christopher hitchens

then i said yes

the lava-staring club (Abbott), Tuesday, 23 August 2016 03:41 (seven years ago) link

then i asked if i could just pee on a photo of christopher hitchens

<3 <3 <3

horseshoe, Tuesday, 23 August 2016 03:53 (seven years ago) link

one month passes...

the inevitable moment when the new boss goes straight to a male member of the team to ask him how to set up the laptop and to give the first "what we do here" speech, thus starting the next cycles of assuming:
- the dudes know most about what's going on
- the dudes are most helpful and should be the first call for finding things out and keeping in the loop about new developments
- the dudes are friendliest and good to chat with during breaks and maybe go drinking with
- the dudes are keen and smart and should be given the most new interesting tasks
- the dudes accomplished previous new interesting tasks and should be given more new interesting tasks as they're the ones with new skills and a track record for interesting task success
- the dudes should get training for their new interesting projects and go to conferences and get given money for everything from furniture through software-as-a-service subscriptions to major new hardware, and the women should get none of these, and everyone should just wonder more and more why we bother having these women around because their skills are out of date and they're not engaged with the wider community via conferences and they haven't done an interesting new project in years
- oh hey we need someone to get promoted, that should definitely be a dude because dudes are friendly and keen and smart and know what's going on and look at their great track records!

sorry, I just needed to get that rant out of my head in case the new guy does actually ask any women anything at any point and I accidentally blurt a chunk of it out instead of answering

a passing spacecadet, Friday, 7 October 2016 09:23 (seven years ago) link

also apparently I am several months behind on the "no boys" thread, so 1. congrats Abbott, hope the panel went well, you are awesome for telling improv jerks where to go; 2. excited about everyone's GR! news, inspiring; 3. sorry Branwell I did not see your news, I hope things are still looking good though I guess you prob won't see this, good vibes to you <3

a passing spacecadet, Friday, 7 October 2016 09:24 (seven years ago) link

bingo aps
hope it was just a one-off and your boss is decent

kinder, Friday, 7 October 2016 12:07 (seven years ago) link

four months pass...

Missing this thread these days, these times.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Thursday, 2 March 2017 03:02 (seven years ago) link

same, even though i've always read much more than i posted

estela, Thursday, 2 March 2017 03:21 (seven years ago) link

otm

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 2 March 2017 04:33 (seven years ago) link

hi

tokyo rosemary, Thursday, 2 March 2017 14:22 (seven years ago) link

I thought about bumping this thread many times. Hi!

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 2 March 2017 14:50 (seven years ago) link

I have more white hairs now. Maybe I'll end up with a cool white streak in front?

tokyo rosemary, Thursday, 2 March 2017 15:55 (seven years ago) link

i had a gross period thing happen a couple days ago.

sarahell, Thursday, 2 March 2017 19:49 (seven years ago) link

what happened?

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 2 March 2017 20:07 (seven years ago) link

i realized that there weren't any ILTMI threads about menstrual subjects updated in the past couple years

sarahell, Thursday, 2 March 2017 20:30 (seven years ago) link

https://medium.com/@emmalindsay/why-does-dating-men-make-me-feel-like-shit-12c25e539021#.2v7n6pql0

When I was dating women, and when I was not dating, I didn’t really stress out about my appearance. Sometimes I looked good, sometimes I looked bad and I feel like I had a fairly objective sense of the whole thing. And, even when I looked bad, I was ok looking bad. It didn’t really bug me. Which is sort of what makes this whole flood of emotions particularly puzzling for me. Since when do I care about not being pretty? And, when I looked in the mirror this morning, I didn’t even look that bad. I was able to see, in an objective sense, that my hair was fine (strangely, better than normal) my skin was fine. In another time or place, I would have looked in the mirror and thought I looked hot.

So, what the hell is going on?

the world's little sunbeam (in orbit), Thursday, 2 March 2017 21:23 (seven years ago) link

I personally do not find myself in this situation with my current 3-yr relationship with a man. I actually feel liberated from thinking about my body much or wondering how men perceive me because I don't care about the ones other than my bf and he doesn't put any of this on me. In general tho I thought a lot of this article rang with the bell of truth.

the world's little sunbeam (in orbit), Thursday, 2 March 2017 21:26 (seven years ago) link

Glad for this thread revive. I've been feeling like women are less present on ilx generally, but maybe it's just the subset of threads I follow. Anyone else feel this? It's like ilx has gotten more bro-ier along with, well, 'merica.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Thursday, 2 March 2017 21:51 (seven years ago) link

tbh one of the reasons i didn't bump this thread was because i thought very few women (aside from myself and a handful of others) were here anymore ;_;

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 2 March 2017 21:58 (seven years ago) link

^^^^^yes, me too!

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Thursday, 2 March 2017 22:07 (seven years ago) link

i get ignored enough on a regular basis that i figured it would make me overly sad to be talking to the wall here

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 2 March 2017 22:20 (seven years ago) link

I read politics threads obsessively now but I feel less of an urge to actually contribute, which tbh seems to be every other woman too because I can't remember when a non-dude posted in a politics thread. (Sorry to the women I'm invariably forgetting.)

the world's little sunbeam (in orbit), Thursday, 2 March 2017 22:36 (seven years ago) link

I did have a kind of women's salon at my newly furnished pad last Sun. Only about 4 women came but it was very fulfilling. I want to host women's events regularly now.

the world's little sunbeam (in orbit), Thursday, 2 March 2017 22:37 (seven years ago) link

I'm here and I don't know why I don't post :/

ljubljana, Friday, 3 March 2017 01:00 (seven years ago) link

Shit I'm just glad to hear some of the XX/otherly chromosomed women are still around! It felt like there had been a mass exodus and somehow just a handful were sticking around for whatever reason.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 3 March 2017 01:09 (seven years ago) link

i post in the dumb tv & action movie threads mostly, same as always :D

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 3 March 2017 01:12 (seven years ago) link

I'm still here too. Feel like I don't post all that much but I don't know how accurate that is (or indeed how different from the norm, I think I've always been fairly quiet until I start brawling on poll threads).

emil.y, Friday, 3 March 2017 01:17 (seven years ago) link

I'm going through some stuff to do with having a female body but it's really boring to talk about so I won't
it's not the menopause

kinder, Friday, 3 March 2017 12:37 (seven years ago) link

i am hosting an all-woman jam next sunday, looking forward to it
so far i think 4 people are coming for sure, aiming for 6

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 3 March 2017 18:36 (seven years ago) link

including me

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 3 March 2017 18:36 (seven years ago) link

I found that medium article interesting, thanks io

I have thoughts about it but they are all barely formed and incoherent and I'm not sure the internet needs to know them

which is how I feel about most things lately, so not so much ILX posting (except for the 7000 times a week I get cranky about my job or my commute and post to the irrationally angry or stupid coworkers threads)

but I am always glad to see this thread on New Answers, hi everyone, hope you're doing OK

a passing spacecadet, Friday, 3 March 2017 19:03 (seven years ago) link

eh ok here goes re that article

as an unattractive woman, who is not good at doing traditional woman things including looking good, dressing nice, doing my hair, not being fat, I tend to assume that anyone who puts up with me for any length of time must by definition not be very interested in that stuff, so my longer-term relationships have existed in a state of "I actually feel liberated from thinking about my body much or wondering how men perceive me" (-- in orbit)

but quite often, after a while, even these apparently me-accepting dudes start to drop hints about my weight, about how surely there must be some sport I'd secretly love to take up because surely everyone has some longing to run marathons and swim the channel, about how it looks nice when the salon straightens my hair (to which I fill in the subtext "and I look a bit more like a normal woman for the rest of the day"), etc

on one level it's disappointing, when you feel safely shame-free around a guy and suddenly, bam! shame bomb. but on the other hand maybe I am just oversensitive to hear these things as shaming? I mean maybe they really are just gentle encouragements to try new things, be healthier, or w/e

a passing spacecadet, Friday, 3 March 2017 19:32 (seven years ago) link

also I wondered (as someone who has never done it) if dating a woman, particularly a lesbian, means you know the person you are dating has had to examine their own failings wrt the grand global hotness scale and acceptability index, and so you know they're going to be more forgiving of other people's transgressions of it.

(yes, I know men are insecure too but maybe the exact shape of their insecurity and what they might accept in other people feels more unknowable?)

then I remembered that I don't generally feel like all women are by existential necessity accepting of weird-looking women whenever I e.g. go to the hairdresser and feel so out of place among women who understand and care about hair styling, so eh

a passing spacecadet, Friday, 3 March 2017 19:34 (seven years ago) link

yeah i dunno that it's a guarantee that you won't find that by dating women.

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 3 March 2017 19:47 (seven years ago) link

i'm only going off the lesbian relationships i've been party to, but yeah, pendulum swang pretty wildly between chill & shaming. i've some bad examples, and some suuuper great utopian examples

XX isn't a guarantee of much beyond anatomy unfortunately <3

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 3 March 2017 19:54 (seven years ago) link

when i became single after an 11 year relationship, all that body image stuff was one of my biggest fears -- when I got into the relationship I was young and thin, and 11 years later, I was fat and cougar aged. This was 7 years ago. At the moment, I am not in a relationship, not dating, not interested in either, and I feel a lot better about myself.

But I think those feelings are also related to "being on the market" and general fears of not being desirable, that also extend to things beyond the female body -- like jobs. If you're unemployed and looking for work, it's common to fear that you don't have the right skills or personality or c.v. It's just a specific form of a fear of rejection, that societal norms have totally amplified for women to be about their bodies, and less about other traits.

sarahell, Friday, 3 March 2017 20:23 (seven years ago) link

Yeah I mean idk you gotta find your people so you have daily visible evidence that you're not alone. Like I know women who are also bad at "prettiness," style, etc and some of them are objectively beautiful even without any of that stuff and some are genuinely weird looking or w/e but they/we have each other to remind us that our worth doesn't come from any of those things. Without those ppl tho I think I would find it a lot harder to maintain my perspective.

I purposefully didn't wear any makeup or style my hair for my women's get-together, for instance, even though as the "hostess" I felt like I should have "made an effort." Pushed back on that shit internally and said fuck it.

the world's little sunbeam (in orbit), Friday, 3 March 2017 20:24 (seven years ago) link

I kinda rebelled against that stuff from a young age -- I was an only child, so I also felt like I should be something akin to a "son" as well -- so the "prettiness" stuff for me almost always feels like a form of drag, or at least like a theatrical performance, minus the jazz squares and character shoes.

sarahell, Friday, 3 March 2017 20:30 (seven years ago) link

Wait I have to go back to

i am hosting an all-woman jam next sunday, looking forward to it
so far i think 4 people are coming for sure, aiming for 6

― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, March 3, 2017 6:36 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

HALLELUJAH AND ANGELS AMONG US!!!!! This is already the pinnacle of emotional existence in my imagination! Women playing music and jamming together hell yes.

the world's little sunbeam (in orbit), Friday, 3 March 2017 20:31 (seven years ago) link

It's just a specific form of a fear of rejection, that societal norms have totally amplified for women to be about their bodies, and less about other traits.

cosign btw. I wouldn't say I think that feeling is only this but it's at least liable to be partly this.

the world's little sunbeam (in orbit), Friday, 3 March 2017 20:33 (seven years ago) link

At the moment, I am not in a relationship, not dating, not interested in either, and I feel a lot better about myself.

More thoughts (sorry). Yes, that sentence reminds me of times I have been happier w myself and distanced myself from body & appearance and worthiness insecurities, and looking back, it DID require me to take myself "off the market," as it were. Like to decide that I was not interested in dating or being desired/loved. So in order to be happy w myself I had to cut myself off from romance/sex/contact w my desired gender. Managing my happiness & emotional health required me to pick one or the other.

I want to think about this more now while I'm in something good and I finally have BOTH in an integrated way, so if and when this relationship ends, I can put myself back into this state by creating an emotional roadmap now.

the world's little sunbeam (in orbit), Friday, 3 March 2017 20:41 (seven years ago) link

I kinda rebelled against that stuff from a young age -- I was an only child, so I also felt like I should be something akin to a "son" as well -- so the "prettiness" stuff for me almost always feels like a form of drag, or at least like a theatrical performance, minus the jazz squares and character shoes.

interesting - I was (am) an only child and a tomboy. I had thought of these as entirely independent quirks of my childhood but maybe they are linked!

a passing spacecadet, Friday, 3 March 2017 20:44 (seven years ago) link

Xp Yeah I'm psyched & hoping to record at least part of it. Maybe I should call it Yoni! Yony! Yoné!

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 3 March 2017 20:47 (seven years ago) link

I mean I actually dress up a bit, and started trying to do "pretty" things with my hair, (also taking pride in having thick curly hair and working with that) but it's self-directed as opposed to marketing myself to men. But for me, the past couple years have been about getting more comfortable and happier being by myself and doing things that I enjoy, as opposed to what I should enjoy, or what would make me more attractive to guys. Like sewing clothing and vintage fashion stuff -- outside of talking about periods, that is one of the top topics guaranteed to get a straight guy to tune out or walk away from a conversation.

xp - LL - my bff has actually guested with Toni Tony Tone (or whatever order) -- she says they are super nice and she felt good about those gigs.

sarahell, Friday, 3 March 2017 20:50 (seven years ago) link

i just typed up a long post about my opinion on this subject and then deleted it - which is what i do probably 9/10 times when posting to ilx these days. which is probably preferable to my early years on ilx, when i was insane from sleep deprivation and overworked, and would just post the first thing that came to mind.

i miss these femme threads - just shooting the shit, talking about whatever. there is definitely a smaller and smaller femme presence on ilx over the last year or two.

just1n3, Friday, 3 March 2017 21:15 (seven years ago) link

preferable to my early years on ilx, when i was insane from sleep deprivation and overworked, and would just post the first thing that came to mind.

Mine too! Except replace overworked with drunk :/

sarahell, Friday, 3 March 2017 21:19 (seven years ago) link

the first year/year and half, holy shit, some of the stuff i posted was beyond embarrassing.

just1n3, Friday, 3 March 2017 21:24 (seven years ago) link

Yoni and Chocha would be a funny name for something, a thing i have nothing to do with

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BMjE1MjE1NjIwM15BMl5BanBnXkFtZTgwNzUwMDY1MTE@._V1_UY1200_CR82,0,630,1200_AL_.jpg

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 3 March 2017 21:47 (seven years ago) link

i can't even google it, i'm at work

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 3 March 2017 21:47 (seven years ago) link

kinder I'm just catching up ott but fwiw I am totally interested and not bored by all things female-body-related, so do tell if you feel like it!

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 3 March 2017 22:02 (seven years ago) link

I thought about reviving this thread when I was reading about the dude who allegedly invented labial glue for menstruating women.

tokyo rosemary, Friday, 3 March 2017 22:09 (seven years ago) link

also "the grand global hotness scale and acceptability index" (GGHSAI) should be copyrighted as a shorthand for All That Stuff-- thanking u APspacecadet!

xxpost WHAAAAAAAAA?

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 3 March 2017 22:10 (seven years ago) link

did dude also invent labial glue solvent or like what was the end game here dude

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 3 March 2017 22:14 (seven years ago) link

I think urine was supposed to be the solvent.

tokyo rosemary, Friday, 3 March 2017 22:15 (seven years ago) link

so you were supposed to re-glue every time you took a leak? f'n guy.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 3 March 2017 22:19 (seven years ago) link

clearly a guy who would never even *consider* intercourse with a menstruating woman.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 3 March 2017 22:20 (seven years ago) link

yeah and when yr period's over you just unglue & dump a liter of blood where exactly

nope to all of that

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 3 March 2017 22:30 (seven years ago) link

I have some ideas about how to use this genital glue on its creator.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 3 March 2017 22:32 (seven years ago) link

I'm thinking that cooking threads are the only threads I see regularly that have anything resembling gender balance, and when ilchixors don't get talked over so much by the uber talky talkers?

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 3 March 2017 22:33 (seven years ago) link

circling back to Sarahell, I have become a big proponent of dressing up for ME

like I bought a bomber jacket with sequin sleeves that ok sure i dont go out every weekend but i am so fkb excited at the idea of glamming up & wearing it because *I* am into how it looks, not for anyone else's benefit

and for going out clothes in general I am much more about "do I respond to this color/pattern/style positively?" first, instead of in the past where i'd be like ohhh no someone my size should never wear a shiny dress etc

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 3 March 2017 22:37 (seven years ago) link

I'm conflicted between "get rid of lil belly" and "I'm bringing bellies back."

My spouse does not appear to have any conflict with respect to his own belly; he comes in from a winter run and notes without any negative feeling that his "blubber keeps him warm," and indeed his belly is always really chilly while his limbs are nice and toasty; insulation works!

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 3 March 2017 23:22 (seven years ago) link

Oh god, the labial glue thing was hilarious.

http://www.dailyedge.ie/mensez-period-lipstick-3251536-Feb2017/

emil.y, Friday, 3 March 2017 23:27 (seven years ago) link

LL I have not stopped loling about Yoni and Chocha since u posted the other day and if it's okay I'm going to turn it into my new username as a tribute to yr genius <3

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 5 March 2017 01:49 (seven years ago) link

Be my guest! Glad to be of service.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Sunday, 5 March 2017 04:36 (seven years ago) link

Yoni Bitchell is my personal fave
Yoni Basil also a decent option

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Sunday, 5 March 2017 04:39 (seven years ago) link

<3

Yoni Loves Chocha (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 5 March 2017 04:39 (seven years ago) link

can't believe you're not going with the ilx classic, and twat

sarahell, Sunday, 5 March 2017 07:54 (seven years ago) link

joni luvs chachi was my fave tv show as a little kid so this feels right

Yoni Loves Chocha (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 5 March 2017 08:00 (seven years ago) link

that post made no contextual sense, for which i apologize

sarahell, Sunday, 5 March 2017 08:29 (seven years ago) link

I loled
There's enough for us all to have one

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Sunday, 5 March 2017 15:15 (seven years ago) link

I didn't mention this before because I feel like it's the biggest can of worms in the universe but that article io posted was otm about "creepy", a word that is so vague that it can refer to anything from annoying behavior to harassment to actual stalking (not lite-stalking as the term is used more generally. I'm not sure she's otm about why, as I think it varies as wildly as the meanings of the word "creepy" but I'm glad she opened the discussion of a very nebulous concept that's always hanging in the air like a fart.

I had to get that off my chest because I've been thinking about the general concept of creepiness for many years.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, 6 March 2017 23:55 (seven years ago) link

a podcast i enjoy that discusses old-timey high school books discussed Forever by Judy Blume but neither the host or the guest had read it before

they both liked it reading it as newcomers, which is good & cool to hear

but oh man it bummed me out! i was looking forward to hearing from someone who was a legit teen whose life was changed when that contraband was passed to them (like me!) and who owes JB a debt of womanly gratitude for telling me all the stuff that mum and other women kept to themselves (like me!)

plus this guest was a teen in the 00's (side-eye)
who had only read the Fudge series (double side eye) (COME ON! Deenie? Tiger Eyes? Are You There God?)

Sorry, just venting

Yoni Loves Chocha (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 00:54 (seven years ago) link

What podcast is this? It sounds interesting. I mean, in general, maybe not this specific episode.

tokyo rosemary, Tuesday, 7 March 2017 01:02 (seven years ago) link

It's called Sophomore Lit. The idea is they cover your 10th grade reading list, but they cast the net pretty wide and cover stuff like Longfellow that used to be assigned decades ago but isn't now, as well as standards like Romeo & Juliet, Animal Farm, whatnot. I kinda like it. They stay on topic pretty well, and the host is the brother of Dan McCoy of the Flophouse podcast so I'm kinda fond of it by default.

And it's kinda cool to rediscover stuff that you read in school that you thought was lame but maybe isn't now. Or vice versa.

Yoni Loves Chocha (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 03:35 (seven years ago) link

- I don't think there's a word I hate more than yoni.

- "bought a bomber jacket with sequin sleeves" this sounds amazing.

- Can't really contribute to the prettiness body image stuff because it's something I'm tackling hard irl and it's a little too real/raw for me to talk about here.

- PSA if you guys didn't see 20th C Women when it was out please try to catch it when it's streaming or whatever because it was really great.

- Hi!

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 16:14 (seven years ago) link

Full disclosure I've never read Judy Blume either and I was a teenager throughout the 90s.

the world's little sunbeam (in orbit), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 16:23 (seven years ago) link

Well, '89-'96 at least.

the world's little sunbeam (in orbit), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 16:24 (seven years ago) link

I didn't mention this before because I feel like it's the biggest can of worms in the universe but that article io posted was otm about "creepy", a word that is so vague that it can refer to anything from annoying behavior to harassment to actual stalking (not lite-stalking as the term is used more generally. I'm not sure she's otm about why, as I think it varies as wildly as the meanings of the word "creepy" but I'm glad she opened the discussion of a very nebulous concept that's always hanging in the air like a fart.

I had to get that off my chest because I've been thinking about the general concept of creepiness for many years.

― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, March 6, 2017 11:55 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Is the designation "creepy" more about the speaker than the subject? Or is there any basic, central, enduring kind of creepiness that remains the same?

the world's little sunbeam (in orbit), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 16:59 (seven years ago) link

I believe the answer is a) -- but there are surely elements we can all agree on. At its essence, afaict, it's barely concealed desire and/or unwelcome/inappropriate objectification.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 17:34 (seven years ago) link

I could co-sign that. I might also say that there's an element of threat? Of a power disparity in favor of the creep and against the object of desire. If someone is less powerful and lower status than you, their unwanted desire is...comic? or awkward, or...? something laughable, not threatening. Creepiness feels like it also contains the knowledge that the person could act on their desire and in some way harm you.

Do guys routinely categorize women as creepy bc of their affection or attention? I can't see it being the comparable to the reverse.

the world's little sunbeam (in orbit), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 18:02 (seven years ago) link

a podcast i enjoy that discusses old-timey high school books discussed Forever by Judy Blume but neither the host or the guest had read it before

I had the same reaction to that sentence as you VG before realising that was your point! Even as a kid in rural England I read Are you there God, Forever, a bunch of others, and Sally J Freedman over and over for some reason. I didn't know what so many things were in the book (stucco, bobby pins, lots of Jewish stuff and yeah bordellos).

kinder, Tuesday, 7 March 2017 18:32 (seven years ago) link

Memories of smuggling home Forever from my local library in semi-rural England and hiding it so my mother couldn't read it (NB I did a p. half-assed job of this and it mysteriously disappeared from its hiding place so she must have read it). It had been talked about in hushed terms in the playground for the past year or so, a cult literary rite of passage.

I was maybe 12 (just), super naive for my age, many years off any kind of relationship, and I'm p sure most of it was entirely over my head. Not sure I'm quite in the right mental place to re-read it but I'll give the podcast a go.

I remember reading lots of other Blume books whose titles mostly escape me right now. Also Paula Danziger, who I was v into aged 12-13 and who is grouped together with Blume in my British head for being American tween-to-teen lit, poss an association that will make no sense to American readers who had no need to group them by nationality.

a passing spacecadet, Tuesday, 7 March 2017 18:55 (seven years ago) link

Strangely the YA library book I got in trouble with my mother for was not the obviously discovered Forever but a short Gene Kemp book where the male protagonist says on page 1 something like "I love women, me. I love everything about them", which seemed a bit tame at the time to get in trouble for, but there were very possibly further entendres and contextual nuances which were lost on me.

The book goes on to be about Greenham Common and adult in the less parent-outraging sense of being p bleak iirc.

RIP Gene Kemp; as with my most beloved of your protagonists, I did not discover your gender until the end, even though by then I'd met two female Genes. <3

a passing spacecadet, Tuesday, 7 March 2017 19:00 (seven years ago) link

I read a few Judy Blume books and they didn't change my life at all. They were okay, I guess. I liked horror books more. Maybe this is why I have always felt like a deficient girl.

emil.y, Tuesday, 7 March 2017 19:01 (seven years ago) link

I read a few Judy Blume books and they didn't change my life at all. They were okay, I guess

that's pretty much how I felt as well. Also, by the time I read them, I had boobs and my period, neither of which I found particularly desirable. I think when my peers were reading Judy Blume, I was reading a lot of sci-fi and your standard J.D. Salinger, George Orwell, short books that appealed to disaffected precocious teens.

sarahell, Tuesday, 7 March 2017 19:57 (seven years ago) link

I feel like I posted this same thing 8 years ago -- thread has come full circle

sarahell, Tuesday, 7 March 2017 19:58 (seven years ago) link

Do guys routinely categorize women as creepy bc of their affection or attention? I can't see it being the comparable to the reverse.
idk because i am not a guy but i do believe they experience this as well, even if they don't talk about it as freely. "routinely" and "comparable" being the only thing preventing from me answering "of course".

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 20:43 (seven years ago) link

If someone is less powerful and lower status than you, their unwanted desire is...comic? or awkward, or...? something laughable, not threatening.
also i don't agree that this is necessarily true -- a teacher can find a student creepy (and I think the power in that case is in the hand of the teacher, the person "in charge") At least I don't find it comic or merely awkward when a student behaves toward me in a creepy way.

this is a very thorny topic! (save your (t)horny jokes pls) :)

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 20:47 (seven years ago) link

oops i really screwed up that second to last post but i think my point is more or less clear

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 7 March 2017 20:49 (seven years ago) link

Do guys routinely categorize women as creepy bc of their affection or attention? I can't see it being the comparable to the reverse.

I've been accused of being creepy before, unfortunately :(

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Wednesday, 8 March 2017 02:02 (seven years ago) link

Never read Judy Blume but on a long train journey to Scotland when I was about 10, I finished my book and my mum lent me hers. It was Roald Dahl's collected stories. She hadn't started it yet and I don't think she realised they were for adults. Let me tell you, his take on women's sexuality is not an ideal starting point.

ljubljana, Wednesday, 8 March 2017 03:38 (seven years ago) link

I asked my mother what a bordello was after reading it in Sally J. Freedman. Yeah, didn't do that again!

tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, 8 March 2017 04:38 (seven years ago) link

Re-read Then Again, Maybe I Won't in college and boy I missed a lot when I first read it as a kid! I knew nothing about boys.

tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, 8 March 2017 04:40 (seven years ago) link

I never read any Judy Blume, or much YA stuff at all really: my father was a single parent, and I mostly read his books. He had a few Steven Kings, which I remember liking (especially The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon, which I think inspired my lifelong hatred of nature). Thankfully I never read Carrie during puberty.

Girl with Curious Hair, Thursday, 9 March 2017 20:20 (seven years ago) link

I read Carrie before puberty! I don't think it affected me much though tbh.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 9 March 2017 21:09 (seven years ago) link

two weeks pass...

was suddenly v sweaty after lunch at work & came home. felt ok soon after though

it suddenly occurred to me that this might have been a hot flash? idk. i still get my period like clockwork. bleh. ladybusiness is weird

Yoni Loves Chocha (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 24 March 2017 00:27 (seven years ago) link

I gave up even looking at ILX for Lent (somehow looking but not posting is even worse than posting and getting shat on all the time?) but today is Sunday and I came on to look if there were any suggestions about how to pitch for a 33 1/3 book*, only to find out that the search is borken.

So here I am, girl thread, how are you? This is the only thread I ever find myself missing.

I read that article IO posted on twitter ages ago, and had ~THOTS~ on it but have forgotten what they were. As someone who has dated men and women and people inbetween, my only conclusions are that dating women and dating men both suck, but that they suck in different ways, qualitatively and quantitatively. It's not that dating women and people who aren't cis-dudes is totally free of all the patriarchal and looks-based bullshit; but it's a thousand times more crushing with cis-men. It's easier just not to do dating, so I'll stick my oar out of that one. Feeling at home in a body is a constant battle.

I don't know. With things like 'creepy', the scale and the power imbalance is just completely non-comparable. Yeah, I've totally been called creepy by dudes, and it's because Asperger's and lack of boundaries and sure. But then you compare that to the scale of the current breaking scandal of sexual harassment in universities which has been breaking in Britain over the past few months (and exploding across academia in the US, too) and it's like... You are comparing one or two individuals to a massive, systemic, endemic thing. It's like comparing blue moons and Mondays. One is a rare, exceptional, notable, random chance, once every few years thing; the other thing happens routinely, regularly and deliberately 52 times each year. Don't pretend like it's the same. It's not.

*I did a OWOB last year, and it was the weirdest experience. As much as possible, I deliberately left my name, and any links to my online presence out of it. (Partly because I didn't want to be self-promotey - why? Like, dudes never care if they come across as self-promotey and CHECK OUT MY BLOG Y'ALL. Probably because they don't get incessantly called attention-whores by dudes doing exactly the same thing, if they do. Partly because... y'know, stalkers.) And I had a total GitHub** of an experience over it: seeing it linked and promoted and RT-d by loads and loads of people, many of them men. Many of them men, formerly of ILX; some of them even actual men who had bullied me, dismissed me, rubbished me and my contributions to ILM. And yet when my writing is divorced from my name and my history, they're totally into it? And sharing it for feminist brownie points? That was such a head-fuck.

**Have we discussed that on this thread? Study came out this year, about public ratings for female programmers. The actual work of female programmers is consistently rated higher than average, but only when their identities as female is hidden. When coders use female names, their work is consistently rejected or rated lower. I mean, people have proved this stuff 100x over with CVs identical but for the names at the top. But this is ~SCIENCE!~ and it's hard to ignore that.

I mean, yeah, social media is such a weird echo-chamber, and you can't actually assume that they've even read the piece they're RT-ing. IS2G half the time people just share stuff because it's like a high-five to their bros, rather than they actually read it and agreed with it. But it's something that Roxy and I talked about ages ago, on here. Like, how to react, when someone is tossing around ideas they refused to hear from you. Should you be glad that the ideas have now become common currency? Or are you 'allowed' to have a gut-reaction of "you? YOU? Who spent two solid years harassing me on an internet forum, but now you're tossing around my feminist, genderqueered readings of electronic music? Really?"

Argh. Sorry. This is such a "stomp in, spew, stomp out" non-contribution to the thread. It just strengthened my resolve that I should write more. And try to get published more. And instead of stomping around going "Why is no one writing about X?!?!?" be the person who actually goes out and writes the piece about X. Because the piece that got all the RTs was actually something I was ranting about up earlier on this thread last year that no one had written about.

But ugh, pitching is like dating, but a hundred times worse. Because when they reject you... when you're dating, it's only your body they're rejecting, and my body isn't me. It's just a lump of flesh I use to walk around. But when someone rejects your writing, it's like... OH NO my writing really *is* me. I'll get completely broken and discouraged and not publish anything for a year again. But I look at the jerkwads who do get to do it, and feel the white-hot heat of fury, and that anger is the only reason driving me to publish anything, really. (Except I won't. My nerve will fail, and I'll screw it up like I screw up everything.)

Thanks for listening. I'll pop back in when Lent is over but this thread goes in such fits and bursts it's really blink and you miss it. Hope you are all doing well, girl thread denizens!

Half Rutter (Branwell with an N), Sunday, 26 March 2017 09:09 (seven years ago) link

Sorry I wanted to add some links. The thing that got me thinking about this was this essay, about harassment and abuse in academia and the ~literary world~ and how it expands out to who gets to be gatekeepers for things. And how that affects who even approaches, let alone who gets through.

http://www.tinhouse.com/blog/45377/experts-in-the-field.html

And this response to it:

http://lithub.com/roxane-gay-aimee-bender-and-more-on-assault-and-harassment-in-the-literary-world/

In which someone raised the ugly points that these same men who do these things to young women, they are the ones who teach *how* to write, who teach even *what subjects* are considered worthy of writing about, and by whom. They are the ones who edit journals, and hold control over what gets published and what doesn't. So it's this double abuse: they abuse individuals, physically. And they abuse entire classes of people by literally (through literature) shaping What Writing Can Contain.

Half Rutter (Branwell with an N), Sunday, 26 March 2017 09:54 (seven years ago) link

four weeks pass...

this thread is as good a thread as any to talk about women's hair and politics and this:

http://adage.com/article/cmo-strategy/shea-moisture/308785/

and

http://www.complex.com/style/2017/04/shea-moisture-nixes-ad-after-backlash

sarahell, Tuesday, 25 April 2017 09:12 (six years ago) link

I think I have a summer crush!

Relatedly, I went to a local gallery/community space, and exchanged info with one of the women running it. She seems cool & I want more friends my age. I just feel like being blunt and emailing "let's be friends!!!"

tokyo rosemary, Tuesday, 25 April 2017 22:10 (six years ago) link

four weeks pass...

dunno if we've discussed this before, but, I have a question --

I have a close friend who has a (pretty obvious, but unacknowledged) eating disorder. How do I best respond in the context of social media -- she posts a lot of selfies?

sarahell, Wednesday, 24 May 2017 21:04 (six years ago) link

Idk if I understand the question -- are you unsure of how to react to her (possibly) alarming selfies?

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 24 May 2017 22:36 (six years ago) link

do you need to respond?

assawoman bay (harbl), Wednesday, 24 May 2017 23:38 (six years ago) link

yeah, I'm not sure how to react. Also, it'll be something like facebook memories will bring up a picture of us from a few years ago (before she lost a lot of weight), and I avoid posting them.

sarahell, Thursday, 25 May 2017 02:34 (six years ago) link

privately, maaaaybe a dm? but you would have to broach it delicately. And you would have to know her pretty well.

publicly: don't.

Yoni Loves Chocha (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 25 May 2017 02:51 (six years ago) link

Yeah this is fraught. Could she be ill for example and not told anyone?

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Thursday, 25 May 2017 03:15 (six years ago) link

i'd avoid communicating via text about this-- if it were me, and i were very concerned for the person's life, a private safe face to face convo or nothing imo. (if the person is a close friend but doesn't live close enough to hang with, phone convo)

disordered eating is everywhere so i would only intervene if i were seriously concerned about her wellbeing.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 25 May 2017 12:31 (six years ago) link

In college when I cut my hair off and wore men's clothes my mother told someone bitterly that I was "trying to be ugly." How strangely right she was. I really felt like this article was speaking for me. #wheniwaspythia

https://catapult.co/stories/role-monsters-gorgons-medusa-women-beauty-ugliness#

Medusa lost her beauty—or rather, it was taken from her. Beauty is always something you can lose. Women’s beauty is seen as something separate from us, something we owe but never own: We are its stewards, not its beneficiaries. We tend it like a garden where we do not live.

Oh, but ugliness—ugliness is always yours.

the world's little sunbeam (in orbit), Thursday, 25 May 2017 13:27 (six years ago) link

yeah i feel that
i don't have a lot to say about it, but it strikes a familiar chord

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 25 May 2017 13:52 (six years ago) link

i think it also applies to age
how much of the beauty routine is intended to stave off AGING
how much do you hate your neck? google "i hate my neck" and see the algae bloom of results

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 25 May 2017 14:03 (six years ago) link

Oh, I like that article. Though I feel like it frames the issue a bit too much as if it is *easy* to take ownership of your own ugliness, when it really is not.

On a related note, this is probably my favourite Comet Gain song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJ13rgmBjtQ

emil.y, Thursday, 25 May 2017 14:06 (six years ago) link

Particularly irate today at having to watch 5+ minutes of coworker's daughter's wedding video in which every single word, frame, vow, dress, etc, is lock-step gender norms & a certain kind of conventional. "You're my puzzle piece, and I will love you for forever and beyond." <-- I'm not sure you know what words actually mean but okay.

the world's little sunbeam (in orbit), Thursday, 25 May 2017 15:04 (six years ago) link

And it was at the Brooklyn Botanical Garden so it had to have been tens of thousands of dollars. What does a reception at BBG even cost? idk

the world's little sunbeam (in orbit), Thursday, 25 May 2017 15:04 (six years ago) link

The sound track for the wedding highlights is a song that goes "A diamond ring and a dozen roses, everything she ever wanted."

the world's little sunbeam (in orbit), Thursday, 25 May 2017 15:16 (six years ago) link

it definitely costs a lot

sorry your coworker's daughter is so boring :)

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 25 May 2017 15:17 (six years ago) link

Usually I'm not so irate at the mere thought that people different from me exist but being smushed up against them at work all the time and having them assume I'm one of them...and the strength of their assumption that everyone is exactly the same as them...maybe it triggers my being from a small town neuroses and reminds me when I couldn't get out of my hometown fast enough. I'm sure their insistence on the correct-ness of their norms is related to why they're so mean to our immigrant families. Anyone a little bit different is treated like a space alien.

the world's little sunbeam (in orbit), Thursday, 25 May 2017 15:30 (six years ago) link

yup
also they probably lack imagination if they rely that heavily on cliche

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 25 May 2017 15:33 (six years ago) link

feeling this so much. i'm not like, extremely manly or anything, but i don't like to play the game. my co-worker is all into it. pink everything. perfume. i hate perfume. loving to be married and talk about it all the time. super feminine voice/speech patterns. fake fake fake fake and it must be tiring just to exist. i'm so happy xxxx is away this week, i don't have to shave my legs! really? have to? does he not know your legs grow hair?

assawoman bay (harbl), Saturday, 27 May 2017 19:25 (six years ago) link

hahaha I'm starting to be okay with some pink things, but yeah, so much of this stuff I just don't go in for, exhausting (as you said) and expensive!!

sarahell, Saturday, 27 May 2017 19:42 (six years ago) link

Mother's Day also brings some of this stuff up -- like ads for "mother/daughter mani-pedis" -- uh, no thanks.

sarahell, Saturday, 27 May 2017 19:45 (six years ago) link

yeah I remember a colleague complimenting me on my short haircut and saying oh my husband would never let me do such a thing
and I was like, wait hold up LET you?
I go to the hairdresser and get whatever I want and I come home and mr veg says hey whatsup haircut and we just fuckin move on with our lives

sometimes I wonder if I'm doing marriage wrong and then stuff like that happens and I'm like, okay yes okay I'm fine

Yoni Loves Chocha (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 28 May 2017 00:57 (six years ago) link

i went to a friend's wedding a couple weeks ago and it really made me not want to have a wedding

sarahell, Sunday, 28 May 2017 01:25 (six years ago) link

yeah I remember a colleague complimenting me on my short haircut and saying oh my husband would never let me do such a thing
and I was like, wait hold up LET you?

I'd ask her if her husband would stone her in the home depot parking lot if she spoke to a man who was not a relative.

sarahell, Sunday, 28 May 2017 01:32 (six years ago) link

I had a colleague hint that her husband wouldn't let her be Facebook friends with men he didn't know, wtf

kinder, Sunday, 28 May 2017 17:49 (six years ago) link

...

Yoni Loves Chocha (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 28 May 2017 18:12 (six years ago) link

That sounds abusive

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Sunday, 28 May 2017 18:37 (six years ago) link

mr veg says hey whatsup haircut and we just fuckin move on with our lives

<3

schlump, Sunday, 28 May 2017 18:52 (six years ago) link

yeah it was a throwaway comment and I wasn't sure if she was joking :/

kinder, Sunday, 28 May 2017 20:27 (six years ago) link

two months pass...

I met some cool artsy witchy ladies this month! They are planning a panel with Pam Grossman and Kristen Sollee, I AM SO PSYCHED FOR THIS.

Also, I went to an art event/party and made out with some dude, and he emailed me???

tokyo rosemary, Sunday, 30 July 2017 04:31 (six years ago) link

iirc some dude is married o_0

assawoman bay (harbl), Sunday, 30 July 2017 12:56 (six years ago) link

Ha, not that some dude.

tokyo rosemary, Sunday, 30 July 2017 13:08 (six years ago) link

And yesterday he told me he has a three year old. We hung out in town for a little bit, and he hasn't texted or emailed since, hmmmmm.

tokyo rosemary, Monday, 31 July 2017 16:49 (six years ago) link

what is the hmmm?

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, 31 July 2017 16:59 (six years ago) link

There were quite a few emails and texts Saturday night and Sunday about how much he likes me, how much he really wants to hear back from me, how much he really wants to hang out again, and now not even a hey what's up?

tokyo rosemary, Monday, 31 July 2017 17:26 (six years ago) link

maybe he really wants to hear from you (based on how much he really wants to hear back from me, how much he really wants to hang out again
idk
always hard to know what is going on in anyone's mind, i don't try to guess

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, 31 July 2017 17:29 (six years ago) link

I know, there's nothing stopping me from contacting him except my own silliness.

tokyo rosemary, Monday, 31 July 2017 17:32 (six years ago) link

I'm not that used to someone being so forward and unsubtle with their interest!

tokyo rosemary, Monday, 31 July 2017 17:34 (six years ago) link

making new relationships is difficult even (especially?) when romance isn't part of the picture

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, 31 July 2017 17:37 (six years ago) link

I am working on that as well this summer!

tokyo rosemary, Monday, 31 July 2017 17:45 (six years ago) link

yeah me too
it's impossible to know what anyone else is thinking. once i have established that someone finds my company acceptable, my approach is usually to be straightforward (and I guess unsubtle too) because who has time to energy to try to read my mind? no one that's who :) being a wallflower has never worked for me.
i like to think of it as friendliness because i feel ok with being a friendly person.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, 31 July 2017 17:51 (six years ago) link

time AND energy
woops

i don't have the time or energy to proofread lol

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, 31 July 2017 17:52 (six years ago) link

Yes, the ladies I have met have made it clear in their way that they like me and my style, so I am trying to reach out to them. Even if it is just to say that I really enjoyed the events they have organized.

I do have to stop myself investing too much time with the mind reading.

tokyo rosemary, Monday, 31 July 2017 18:20 (six years ago) link

In other positive reinforcement news, I reached out to a friend this month, and now I am going to be a guest on her podcast. Do Not Listen If You Hate Me (or The Simpsons.)

tokyo rosemary, Monday, 31 July 2017 18:25 (six years ago) link

two weeks pass...

I think I've been ghosted???

I'm hanging out with the witchy artist ladies today. I even made one a present!

tokyo rosemary, Sunday, 20 August 2017 14:02 (six years ago) link

one month passes...

Well, this took a weird turn.

I gave my new friend the pink pussyhat I made her, and she was delighted. She also said her son is going to want to wear it as part no is his favorite color. I saw her post online recently that he told her he's a feminist!

tokyo rosemary, Friday, 29 September 2017 11:17 (six years ago) link

aw that's sweet

hope everyone is well. i'm fine. don't have anything in particular to say tbh.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 29 September 2017 13:30 (six years ago) link

I'm glad your fine! I had a stressful month but it's getting better.

Finally have been hearing more from local dude. He wants to be friends first.

It is finally cool enough to wear a dress I bought last month. It is coral with dandelions. It is hard to find anything I want to get clothing wise, because I do not like the current color palettes in stores these days. Which I guess is good, it keeps me from buying things!

tokyo rosemary, Friday, 29 September 2017 14:24 (six years ago) link

that's good! i have trouble finding clothes i like and am willing to actually pay for. haven't shopped in a while but did find a spanking new goodwill near my favorite grocery store and it is full of potential work clothes and F21/Target leftover party clothes.

i guess i should say i'm alright
not that i was ever anything less than paranoid about posting my personal life on the internet, but my levels are at the highest alert right now. with a few blessed exceptions, every public environment feels at least somewhat hostile.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 29 September 2017 14:43 (six years ago) link

i am grateful for the exceptions

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 29 September 2017 14:44 (six years ago) link

I've been doing a lot of online shopping for clothes, mostly used and vintage/vintage-inspired stuff. I am sure there are plenty of animated gifs that people use to describe the feeling when you look at the grid of cute clothes, then select your size, and ... no more cute.

On the plus side (heheheh), I buy less, and it motivates me to sew, alter, refashion, upcycle ... and have a righteous productive anger, "Fuck you makers of cute and hot clothes, I can make things just as cute and hot that will fit me, and I won't spend as much money doing so."

Also, it's interesting trying to come up with the right search terms to find things I like. "Trendy"? ... no, "Arty" ... no, "Hipster" ... no ... "Goth," "Punk" and "Pin-Up" get predictable results, and I find things I like that way ... I could go on with arcane details about SEO "trends" in vintage women's clothing sold online ..

sarahell, Friday, 29 September 2017 21:27 (six years ago) link

Srsly very comforted whenever this thread is revived. I'm not on FB, Twttr, etc anymore so here is where I look to see ilxchixors and to have a connection with you all.

LL, you have a friend/fan in me always and an IRL place in DC if you ever find yourself in the 'hood or just need to skip town to a welcoming place.

Sarahell, tiki with you those years ago and knowing you here on the boards has been a comforting constant in my life.

Tokyo, I am not very artistic and probably only unintentionally witchy, but I welcome you into my coven ;)

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Saturday, 30 September 2017 04:14 (six years ago) link

no updates worth noting except that i think my hair is slowly falling out?!

cosigning quincie, i know most of u itt dont post much on regular ilx anymore so i love this little corner where i can fistbump with my fav womens

*fistbump*

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 30 September 2017 04:19 (six years ago) link

hi

assawoman bay (harbl), Saturday, 30 September 2017 12:37 (six years ago) link

I finally made a new friend but I initially ignored some red flags and now I'm avoiding her :/ we'd had this big talk about high-drama and high-maintenance friendships but it turns out she's both of those things. Which sux bc I was excited to finally have a local cool friend to just hang out with.

just1n3, Saturday, 30 September 2017 15:36 (six years ago) link

hello. It's really hard to make good new friends at my stage of life as I just don't have the time or freedom to do all the silly shit (or shared fun experiences) I like friendships to be based on. hoping this changes at some point...

kinder, Saturday, 30 September 2017 17:30 (six years ago) link

<3 harbl - and the other girls here

dryer sheets and other products for the home lol

― harbl, Saturday, June 20, 2009 6:42 PM (eight years ago)

this post will enter my mind at random times ... like now. I just repainted and redecorated my bedroom ... it hadn't been painted since I moved in 20 yrs ago. so many products for the home lol

sarahell, Saturday, 30 September 2017 20:25 (six years ago) link

i learned about different types of carpet fibers, rug binding, and ... zulily.com ... which is this huge thing that I only recently discovered.

sarahell, Saturday, 30 September 2017 20:28 (six years ago) link

I made some new friends but I think I don’t like socializing anymore? I go out and I just find that I am happier when I get home :/ and I dont like entertaining so having them come to me is a non-starter.

The friends I made are nice & it is always a nice time but it’s like I have this handbrake inside me that won’t let me be a friend back to the ppl being friendly to me

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 30 September 2017 20:46 (six years ago) link

i pretty much only have made friends who enjoy doing the same activities i do
beyond that, there's not much to say because i don't like to share personal info with people i don't know very well
i've always been like this, why change now

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Saturday, 30 September 2017 21:08 (six years ago) link

i go back and forth between being really social and wanting to be around people to wanting to be alone a lot, and i worry that my friends have "moved on" ... one of my best female friends had someone close to her die recently, (different context than the fire which killed a bunch of casual friends/good friends of friends) and I'm giving her space, and several of my other best friends are also kinda introverted, so we will go months without hanging out in person ... I'm also seriously cutting back on drinking, which means I don't go out as much, because I know myself, and if there is booze and people are drinking it, then I'm gonna get drunk too.

sarahell, Saturday, 30 September 2017 21:36 (six years ago) link

i think i'm done making friends in my life

assawoman bay (harbl), Sunday, 1 October 2017 00:00 (six years ago) link

like, it's over

assawoman bay (harbl), Sunday, 1 October 2017 00:00 (six years ago) link

as in you feel you have enough to last you ... or ?

sarahell, Sunday, 1 October 2017 01:14 (six years ago) link

no i'm just too tired and i don't like people i guess, and i'm bad at it

assawoman bay (harbl), Sunday, 1 October 2017 01:20 (six years ago) link

feel this

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 1 October 2017 01:27 (six years ago) link

xp - do you deal with people a lot at your job?

sarahell, Sunday, 1 October 2017 01:33 (six years ago) link

Harbl OTM

just1n3, Sunday, 1 October 2017 02:14 (six years ago) link

i deal with people way too much at my job which is partially (not entirely) why my brain runs out of fuel for any other human interaction the rest of the day

assawoman bay (harbl), Sunday, 1 October 2017 12:43 (six years ago) link

harbl, I get that too with my current job

sarahell, Sunday, 1 October 2017 18:42 (six years ago) link

I work mostly alone so I have the opposite problem- I feel like I've lost all ability to function socially with people I don't already know super well.

just1n3, Sunday, 1 October 2017 19:02 (six years ago) link

i deal with people way too much at my job which is partially (not entirely) why my brain runs out of fuel for any other human interaction the rest of the day

― assawoman bay (harbl), Sunday, October 1, 2017 12:43 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

100%. I really like my neighbors a lot and they're super chill but sometimes I just sit near them (outside) and smoke silently while reading and they know not to talk to me.

I like talking to ppl but a lot of the time now I'll start trying to have the "obligatory social" tone with someone and then my brain goes blank and I don't know what the next line is supposed to be. lol at that point I'm usually like, "I'm sorry, can we start over? Let me ask you something I actually care about the answer to."

Conic section rebellion 44 (in orbit), Monday, 2 October 2017 12:49 (six years ago) link

Hi, everybody! I'm pretty good, I guess. Tired today so it's hard to tell. Miss you lot and just miss hanging out with wimmens in general.

Conic section rebellion 44 (in orbit), Monday, 2 October 2017 13:06 (six years ago) link

Hello wimmins.

I finally got an official Asperger's diagnosis the other week, after 2 years of sitting in various queues, and 35 years after I first entered the mental health system.

What's funny is, a couple of the questions in the interview portions were things like "Do you understand what a friend is?" and "In your own words, can you explain what are friends for?" and "Do you have a partner, do you understand why people have partners?" Which are ridiculously difficult questions.

But it's kind of a relief to see that, y'know, even *neurotypical* people struggle with these questions.

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Monday, 2 October 2017 13:33 (six years ago) link

Kind ladies,

Does 1P3 dare me to put out a personal ad headed with "TCM and chill?"

Virulent Is the Word for Julia (j.lu), Saturday, 7 October 2017 20:32 (six years ago) link

xp Branwell, would be interested to hear more. Why did it take so long, for a start? Has the diagnosis changed things for you?

kinder, Saturday, 7 October 2017 22:19 (six years ago) link

Oh wow, Kinder, that's an essay and a half.

It's taken 35 years because understanding of what Autism is, and how it manifests differently in different kinds of people has expanded exponentially only during the past decade or so. (I mean, there's posts on ILX from 15 years ago, of me going "do you think I might have Asperger's? I score off the charts on all these tests..." but the definitions themselves being totally inappropriate for who I was, i.e. if you design a test for 9 year old boys, it will only catch 9 year old boys.)

Why it took 2 years to get in the right queue... Because I fell between buckets. Disorganisation between the GP and the specialist hospital. The specialist hospital insisting that it was more important to talk to talk to someone in my family (who does not really accept the diagnosis) about what I was like 40 years ago, than it was to actually interview and seriously test *me*. The fact that ~parents of autistic people~ are always considered more legitimate sources of information on autistic people than autists ourselves is just.... ASDLKJFSKLJ ASKLDJFLSDAJFKLSAFJKL

Even the freaking stereotypes and preconceptions that the people who are supposed to be testing you come up with. (I actually got a copy of my diagnosis last week, and I just came away with *such* a negative feeling about the person who interviewed me, and I found when I read her report that she simply hadn't even listened to what I actually said. To the point where I'm considering writing a letter contesting it. UGH.)

The diagnosis itself (or rather, the preliminary diagnosis from a non-doctor therapist 2 years ago) has been absolutely life-changing. It's enabled me to actually maintain a job for the longest continuous period in my life. (Coming up 3 years in November.) It's amazing how such tiny changes in environment make such a huge difference to whether I can actually function!

Ugh, sorry, rambling again. I know ILX isn't about these massive essay posts any more. I apologise.

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Monday, 9 October 2017 07:30 (six years ago) link

Really pleased for you Branwell, despite the wait and those infuriating bits of the system. Also ilx might not be about massive essay posts these days but I always appreciate a well-written long post.

I'm having a bit of a shit time at the moment (lol "at the moment" - and for eternity) and I'm having to move back to Notts - a part of me is relieved to be getting out of this city but I don't really know how to manage without the support of my band: I've never had a female friendship network as close and strong as I have had with them, most of my friends back home are men and the music scene is kinda male dominated.

emil.y, Monday, 9 October 2017 19:15 (six years ago) link

I also appreciate a well-written long post! What did you change in your job? (I am interested generally but also because I recently did a kind of questionnaire thing -being deliberately vague- that actually seemed not 100% bs and gave me some things to think about.)

kinder, Monday, 9 October 2017 20:14 (six years ago) link

btw emil.y that sucks, will you be able to keep properly in touch with them?

kinder, Monday, 9 October 2017 20:15 (six years ago) link

emil.y that sounds like such a mixed bag. On one hand, it really doesn't seem like Brighton has been at all a positive time in your life, so a change of environment might be a good thing. But on the other hand, yes, I know what it's like to feel like you have Your Girl Band, and what it's like to lose that sense of close, strong, female ganghood. I don't know what the balance is; to try to build a female network in your hometown, or to try to use technology to keep close links with your remote pals.

kinder, some of it was very much environmental. The ability to use headphones to block out the very noisy call centre, getting stronger blinds to eliminate bright lights, having one of the meeting rooms turned into a quiet room. Some of it was more social. My boss went and did a training course on how to manage ppl with Asperger's, which covered things like... written instructions, clear guidelines, using a third party (my boss or HR) as mediation when I'm having interpersonal difficulty. I am now excused large group things I do not think I will be able to handle, without having to justify it. A lot of it has been getting people to change their expectations of me, just trying to explain again and again, "I'm not being rude; I have Asperger's." until the penny drops, WRT clarity and explanations, and the fact that I really don't get, and cannot be expected to do, small talk and social lubrication chitchat.

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Tuesday, 10 October 2017 08:22 (six years ago) link

that sounds great! I'm happy for you, B!

sarahell, Tuesday, 10 October 2017 14:57 (six years ago) link

and the small talk and social lubrication chitchat in a work context is really aggravating to me -- I end up being asked to sit in meetings with my boss and -- to keep things general -- a client, and I'm not the one who will be managing the project or working closely with said client, but I have to sit through the chit-chat and small talk, and I just end up sitting there thinking about how much my superfluous presence is costing the company, and I generally quickly come up with a task that I need to get back to right away, but it was great to meet the client, etc.

sarahell, Tuesday, 10 October 2017 15:14 (six years ago) link

That sensory stuff sounds great, in my office I think a lot of us are already sensitive to that kind of thing which is quite nice. If I could only drop the large meetings which I am terrible at speaking at...

kinder, Saturday, 14 October 2017 21:18 (six years ago) link

uh ... so this "me, too" meme? ...

sarahell, Tuesday, 17 October 2017 00:36 (six years ago) link

yeah i like it but one of my younger friends who is millenially obsessed with being the most seen & the most woke has turned it into some kind of olympic event & i just want to be like girl fkn chill we see you, jesus fuck off
which i know is mean but god

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 17 October 2017 01:17 (six years ago) link

TBH many of my friends who have had assault/rape incidents are the most uncomfortable about it, and have said as much on FB (its been triggering and offputting to have it all in their faces from everywhere suddenly, and I totally get that.)

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Tuesday, 17 October 2017 01:58 (six years ago) link

both of you otm

sarahell, Tuesday, 17 October 2017 02:38 (six years ago) link

I don't know. I have been having this conversation since the mid-90s, and there is no good answer.

Every time some powerful man is revealed as an abuser, I know with depressing regularity that social media is going to be a triggery minefield for the next day - and because I curate my timeline pretty carefully, it's not going to be the actual rape apologists in my face (though I know they are out there) but the well-meaning screen-cappers and campaigners and awareness-raisers.

I still *blame* the abusers and the apologists for putting the awareness-raisers in this position in the first place.

(This is literally why we invented trigger warnings: to resolve the dispute between people who wanted to discuss and address this stuff; and those who wanted to deal with it only on their own terms at times they felt OK with it.)

But when I see this whole "the awareness-raisers are so triggery and well-meaning but awful" that really makes my back go up.

Like, here is a thing: Women* (*people who are raised as women and/or people who are read as women) are ALWAYS expected to do the emotional labour of checking in and making sure that everyone in the room is OK and comfortable with the conversation before they / we (delete as necessary) are even allowed to express an opinion about their own lives and own experiences.

Now, I'm not saying that being aware of the needs and emotions of the people around you is a BAD thing. I'm not saying that checking in to be aware of how one's words and actions affect other people is a BAD thing. In many circumstances, it is a very good thing, and I do wish that cis fucking men would do it MORE.

However, this idea that we expect every woman* to do this by default, in every situation, even when discussing abuse they have experienced, and if they/we don't do it, or do it wrongly, or do it too "most wokely", they/we are castigated, dismissed, held up as wrong, and problematised for it, in ways that men rarely, if ever are? I am not OK with the policing of women* in that way, and I never will be.

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Tuesday, 17 October 2017 08:28 (six years ago) link

this entire past year has been the biggest trigger explosion i have ever experienced. for a long time i didn't know what was going on, that i was experiencing symptoms of PTSD. that felt terrible. after a lot of introspection, talking, and reading, i weirdly feel relieved releasing my "me too" into the world. i really identify with roxane gay's book to the degree that immediately after i read it, i wanted to talk about it all the time but i was hesitant to recommend it publicly because i didn't want to start a conversation about my own experience (and i still don't honestly) -- but i do recommend it A LOT to anyone who hasn't wrapped their head around the idea that it's not just the assault that's harmful, but the self destructive impulses it can spark over long periods of time. her book helped me through a really difficult time. i know how awful it must have been for her to write. it actually reminded me that i used to enjoy writing before my voice was squashed by fear. anyway, don't let rape culture tell you that your experience with assault was not bad enough to complain about. that's what i told myself for a really long time to my own detriment and as it turns out, it was worse than i thought.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 17 October 2017 12:47 (six years ago) link

The more contentious thing for *me* social media wise was the response/discussion around the Mayim Bialik article -- because for many years I was somewhat gender non-conforming, and there was a bunch of negative shit I got/felt because of that, and some of the women responding to that article were responding to it in a way that brought a lot of that back.

The article was definitely contextualized horribly, but I agreed/found value in a lot of what she said, and if it had been published (minus the Weinstein connection) in one of the teen girl magazines I read in my early/mid-teens, I would have found it very valuable.

sarahell, Wednesday, 18 October 2017 19:15 (six years ago) link

Girl thread, I need some... I don't know if I need help or some advice or someone to just listen to me. I know there's a ton of talk about gendered violence lately, but I don't know where else to go with this.

Firstly, what does it mean, and secondly, what's a *better* way of reacting, when a grown man, a stranger, says to me, on public transport, some variant of "If you weren't a woman, I would hit you" ?

This happened this morning, for the third time in two years. (It had happened before then, but it has definitely started accelerating since I have been presenting in a less feminine manner.)

1) This is definitely a threat, and I am correct to read it as such, right? This is not a man saying "I'm definitely not going to hit you"; it is a man raising the threat that he *could* hit me and letting me know it. This is threatened violence, and it is *gendered* violence. (I do not know how men threaten other men they plan to hit while on public transport in a context outside of drinking, because I have never seen it.)

2) The way I react is almost certainly going to get me injured one of these days. Because my reaction (and this is definitely coming from a place of being someone who *has* been hit) is to announce, as loud as I can, so that every person nearby can hear, something like "Oh, so you're a misogynist!" and then I get up close to him, within punching distance, and I say, extremely loudly, "GO ON, THEN. HIT ME." And then I stare at them, straight in the eye, until they look down or they get off the train. So far, no one has hit me. Because what they *expect* is for the threat of gendered violence to *work*, in terms of cowing the women around them. And it scares the shit that a woman who is just as big as them if not bigger, is calling their bluff.

But one of these days, one of these guys is gonna hit me. I've had men get off the bus/train and try to follow me to my place of work (I have walked straight to the nearest security guard, and tell them "this man threatened to hit me in front of a crowded train/bus" and let them sort it out.)

It makes me really angry and furious and... You know, powerless. Like I know it is designed to make me feel powerless. Because every man in my family is over 6'2", and funnily enough, not one of them has had strangers threaten them on public transport in this way. I know that if I were actually a man, these guys would *never* hit me. They wouldn't even threaten to hit me. But because they *read* me as a woman, they think it's OK to threaten me. Or, I dunno. Maybe guys punch each other out on the morning train every day and I never read about it.

(The context is always the same: on public transport, I either refuse to cede space to a man who is trying to push in front of me; or else I address a man who is blocking doors while people are trying to get on or off in a manner he finds insufficiently "polite". These are men who are behaving incredibly rudely or selfishly to start with, who dislike me interfering with that.)

I dunno, girl thread. Thoughts? (Apart from getting an electrified cattle prod to deal with guys who stand in the door / people who do not let people off the train before trying to get on the train.)

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 19 October 2017 16:50 (six years ago) link

When I took public transit to work, I dealt with situations like yours semi-regularly and in the exact same way you have, so I don't have any advice, but I want to let you know that "it's not just you," and "thanks, because it makes me feel less of a freak."

sarahell, Thursday, 19 October 2017 16:54 (six years ago) link

And also at the back of the mind during these encounters ... "I've definitely had plenty of experience taking a punch."

sarahell, Thursday, 19 October 2017 16:55 (six years ago) link

) This is definitely a threat, and I am correct to read it as such, right? This is not a man saying "I'm definitely not going to hit you"; it is a man raising the threat that he *could* hit me and letting me know it. This is threatened violence, and it is *gendered* violence.

Yes. It's not only a gendered threat, it's also narcissistically self-congratulatory--"You earned my violence but since I'm such an honorable man who respects women, I'll save you from myself--but also tell you about it so you know that I have the right to hurt you if I choose." Come the fuck on.

Conic section rebellion 44 (in orbit), Thursday, 19 October 2017 17:14 (six years ago) link

Well thanks for making me at least less insane / aggro / cursed, that I am not the only female-bodied person this happens to.

And yeah, I can't remember if it was CA or Why Does He Do That, that flagged up "I could hit you but I won't (right now)" is a threat not a reassurance.

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 19 October 2017 17:46 (six years ago) link

four weeks pass...

ilx feels way more eyerolly to me in this woke-to-patriarchy era than back when it was a non-woke sausage party

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Thursday, 16 November 2017 23:57 (six years ago) link

yep

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 16 November 2017 23:58 (six years ago) link

like i appreciate the overtures but in general i would prefer ppl to just BE cool and not talk so much abt how they ARE cool

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 16 November 2017 23:59 (six years ago) link

eh idk -- i think it's a little better? at the very least i feel more welcome to share my viewpoint without being attacked.
"be cool" otm

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 17 November 2017 00:01 (six years ago) link

true

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 17 November 2017 00:01 (six years ago) link

the language tho is hella boring

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 17 November 2017 00:02 (six years ago) link

i wanna move past this woke-language era into the era where ppl dont sound like they are chairing a local collective

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 17 November 2017 00:04 (six years ago) link

LL kudos for representing in the masculinity thread! Which is mostly dudes talking with other dudes about women's experiences.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 17 November 2017 00:13 (six years ago) link

I mean in general I think it is a good thing, but for my particular ilx enjoyment it has become more of the same of the same of the same of the everything and I'm just tired of it.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 17 November 2017 00:15 (six years ago) link

also "have you ever masturbated in front of a woman" is stuck in my bookmarks after I made a bad move that I regretted several posts later. So now I see it every damn time I open SNA and blech.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 17 November 2017 00:17 (six years ago) link

yeah that masturbating thread was a real u_u moment jfc

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 17 November 2017 00:18 (six years ago) link

is mansplaining about mansplaining to men = meta-mansplaining or?

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 17 November 2017 00:21 (six years ago) link

haha! i told a friend of mine (unrelated to ilx in every way) that i was talking about toxic masculinity with men in an online forum and she was like "you're what now!?!"
i appreciate finally being given air to breathe and space to speak. i am not a loud person, i hate twitter, and i do not enjoy the sensation of talking to a wall. but if people actually listen to me? that's different. it's more like work (i am a teacher, lol) but it's also marginally more productive.

i don't really understand what that masturbation thread was about. also, i've been wondering if it's ok about to speak up about the misdeeds of the recently deceased.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 17 November 2017 00:26 (six years ago) link

i feel a much deeper need now more than ever for some good posi threads that i can rely on for just good conversation bcz SO much of the day to day is confronting & horrifying

but I do like digging in on serious stuff that i feel strongly abt, like the Weinstein thread has become a project, a bit like the Runaways thread before. but the serious stuff takes a lot out of me so i dont do it a lot.

i def have legit pollyanna tendencies, where if i start feeling gross & sad & angry i have to counterbalance with light fun good things bcz i am afraid i’ll just spiral into a breakdown otherwise.

like my whole steez of “being VG” in ilx is kinda therapeutic even though i know i seem like a corny keep it posi cliche
i ~need~ to be silly and yell about dumb shit bcz if i dont i will be basement girl hoarding canned food and writing emo journals forever.

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 17 November 2017 00:36 (six years ago) link

Keep on VGing,VG! Unless you don't feel like it and then do whatever. But light fun good things and lolz plus interesting stuff abt stuff that doesn't just reiterate my daily existence--that's where ilx is most valuable to me at this time in my life.

In other news, I think I am perimenopausal? Ain't got a uterus so can't really say based on periods. I was telling my boss (a 50-something RN) that I was having trouble with words being stuck on the tip of my tongue. I was like "I asked my PCP if I needed to go to a neurologist and he said 'no'" and she's all "yeah that's just menopause." Oddly comforting and perhaps completely inaccurate, but I'll grab on to the comforting.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 17 November 2017 00:50 (six years ago) link

i have been getting numb in my butt simetimes & apparently it is menopausal symptom but i am still riding the red rag so idk wtf is going on.

being in 40’s is weird

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 17 November 2017 01:02 (six years ago) link

I was convinced I was peri or actually menopausal, I had all the syptoms - I wake at night hot and sweaty, I'm often overheated at work, I've become ragingly angry and anxious about everything (which is leading to other self esteem issues but thats another story), I've put on weight, I've no libdo bla bla bla....

... nope. I still has eggs and I still has the right hormones apparently. RARGH what is wrong with me then!? Im considering getting this implanon removed even though it has been AWESOME having no period for the last 2 years.

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Friday, 17 November 2017 02:02 (six years ago) link

(I assume as usual this'll bring the thread to a screaming halt, I seem good at doing that here :( )

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Friday, 17 November 2017 02:08 (six years ago) link

<3 no way

feel like our bodies are so nuts at this age that who tf knows whats menopause & whats just arrrg general arrrg

v confusing!!

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 17 November 2017 02:20 (six years ago) link

Yeah aging is a *blast*. I got up just now from my desk and both my knees pinged with pain so fiercely I almost fell over lol.

Doesnt help that this weird clumsiness just results in B laughing at me grr :(

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Friday, 17 November 2017 02:22 (six years ago) link

lol :/

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 17 November 2017 02:23 (six years ago) link

I'm taking the viewpoint that aging is preferable to the alternative, yah?

It's not our aging female bodies that are a problem, it is the idea that 1) aging and 2) female bodies doing it are a "problem"

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 17 November 2017 02:49 (six years ago) link

Yes indeed. I'm trying to be ok with having a middle aged body now, its hard. I should just enjoy not having to GAF anymore.

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Friday, 17 November 2017 02:51 (six years ago) link

I was telling my boss (a 50-something RN) that I was having trouble with words being stuck on the tip of my tongue. I was like "I asked my PCP if I needed to go to a neurologist and he said 'no'" and she's all "yeah that's just menopause


ha ha, oh dear. My memory isn't great either so maybe I'm just old.

tokyo rosemary, Friday, 17 November 2017 02:52 (six years ago) link

I went into a new store recently and one of the first questions the owner asked was if I have children which, ugh, whatever, but her followup "oh, well, you're young" which NOPE. And this isn't the first time some variation on this has happened.

tokyo rosemary, Friday, 17 November 2017 02:56 (six years ago) link

worst

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 17 November 2017 03:02 (six years ago) link

xpost I look back on my 20-something brain and think damn, girl.

If I had to learn organic chemistry now I'd be fucked. But compared to 23, at 43 I'm better at a lot of things that I most value

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 17 November 2017 03:04 (six years ago) link

But compared to 23, at 43 I'm better at a lot of things that I most value

Shit yeah. I had a meeting with a client/friend this afternoon, and he said I work really hard, and I said, I don't feel like I do ... nowhere near as much as I used to, and he said, well, we're older now, it's okay.

And then I thought about it, and a lot of that is that the work is easier -- it's this weird feeling of knowing pretty much exactly how to do what I need to do. It's this odd gracefulness, esp. now at my newish job (I've been there 1 1/2 yrs), where almost everyone else is younger than me. ... otoh, a lot of it is "young ppl work" and I'm kinda feeling burnt out, and thinking about changing careers -- lol.

sarahell, Friday, 17 November 2017 03:49 (six years ago) link

however, at 43, one thing I'm less good at that I value is seeing clearly out of my right eye. So, I get to join the ranks of wearers of glasses.

sarahell, Friday, 17 November 2017 03:52 (six years ago) link

https://www.bitchmedia.org/article/fragility-body-positivity

sarahell, Wednesday, 22 November 2017 18:27 (six years ago) link

that confirmed some of my feelings about being sold stuff, esp as a woman
i enjoyed looking at some of the other pieces in the series on fragility
it's an interesting theme

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 22 November 2017 21:00 (six years ago) link

two weeks pass...

speaking of bodies and clothes, i really enjoyed this article -- honk if you have ever dressed in a way that is intentionally unflattering so that pigs would leave you alone
https://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/womens-fashion-history-rational-dress-society-universal-standard/Content?oid=36044487

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 7 December 2017 15:10 (six years ago) link

one month passes...

I feel like more and more of a fraud every time I post on this thread (but it is technically, the "no boys" thread, and I am no boy) but this, on the demonisation of women and gossip:

https://tankmagazine.com/issue-70/features/hannah-black/

And this thread, from the author, of the political context of the book which inspired it:

gonna share some quotes from silvia federici's book caliban and the witch, about the genesis of capitalist patriarchy, that this lil essay is based on https://t.co/ElxxbHrWVa

— hanni b (@nanpansky) January 11, 2018

feel really important and urgent and even key, at this time and many others.

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Friday, 12 January 2018 08:14 (six years ago) link

three months pass...

have I missed it or has there been no notice/acknowledgment of dramatic drop off in chixor presence on ilx

not to take away at all from stalwart women posters!

I may be wrong because I stick with my biased bookmarks

what is up, i dunno

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Thursday, 3 May 2018 06:23 (five years ago) link

hallo! yep noticed it as well

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 3 May 2018 14:00 (five years ago) link

Oh we've definitely noticed and talked about it within the last couple months though I can't remember on which thread. It makes me sad and is absolutely one of the reasons I post less, I think.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Thursday, 3 May 2018 14:00 (five years ago) link

some prominent women posters have been gone for a very long time
others have disappeared in the last year or two
still more continue to post periodically
a handful post regularly

honestly idk that proportionally the # of women posters who have departed has been greater than the # of men who have stopped posting, it's just more noticeable because there were fewer women posters to begin with

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 3 May 2018 14:10 (five years ago) link

Hello broads and other not-boys.

Should I quit my job or wait until I get fired? I have nothing lined up except volunteer work.

tokyo rosemary, Sunday, 6 May 2018 20:35 (five years ago) link

Last fall the new CEO told the managers he wants everyone to drink the Kool-Aid, and am tempted to hand in a picture of Jonestown as my resignation.

Also tempted to leave saying "MISS VANJIE"

tokyo rosemary, Sunday, 6 May 2018 20:38 (five years ago) link

lol yes

if you are truly deeply miserable, quit
if you can weather the ennui, stay. then again getting fired is no picnic... shrug

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 6 May 2018 20:38 (five years ago) link

I quit my job without something else lined up.

Thought I had a new job in the bag after what I thought was a great interview two weeks ago. They said they'd let me know last week. The week came and went, no return phone call from recruiter or return e-mail from the hiring manager.

Rude!

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Sunday, 6 May 2018 21:10 (five years ago) link

Tokyo, are you still in NJ? You should try to get fired/volunteer to be laid-off for better chances of severance/unemployment.

Yerac, Sunday, 6 May 2018 21:57 (five years ago) link

i don't have the energy to post but i'm here

forensic plumber (harbl), Monday, 7 May 2018 00:10 (five years ago) link

Not that many threads interest me tbh? I read the politics threadz for my own information and check on a few others, but mostly I'm busy, stressed, tired, over-stimulated already. Hi though!

Conic section rebellion 44 (in orbit), Monday, 7 May 2018 01:02 (five years ago) link

quincie: super rude!

Yerac: I'm in NY. I don't think I'd get severence and applying for unemployment seems like so much work!

After 14 years NOW they are taking wearing the official uniform seriously? And no fun colors for nails? NO THANKS.

tokyo rosemary, Monday, 7 May 2018 02:17 (five years ago) link

I kind of love applying for jobs while I already have another job; my anger at a current jobs motivates me. And then I accept interviews not even wanting the job and one thing leads to another. Start looking now.

Yerac, Monday, 7 May 2018 02:38 (five years ago) link

"I quit my job without something else lined up.

Thought I had a new job in the bag after what I thought was a great interview two weeks ago. They said they'd let me know last week. The week came and went, no return phone call from recruiter or return e-mail from the hiring manager.

Rude!

― mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Sunday, May 6, 2018 5:10 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink"

SAME. It's so frustrating, right? The recruiter I'm working through hasn't heard from the company and keeps saying she hopes she'll know something soon. :/

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Monday, 7 May 2018 14:43 (five years ago) link

Apparently I am naive and did not know that ghosting was a thing in these situations. I mean, the hiring manager basically asked me how soon I could start and said "HUG!" and hugged me goodbye???

WTF.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Monday, 7 May 2018 15:17 (five years ago) link

Yeah the HR woman LOVED me and I got a note back from one of the people I met with saying she hoped to be working with me soon and then nothing. So weird. I was pretty excited about this place too. :/

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Monday, 7 May 2018 15:39 (five years ago) link

Several times I've gone back to a company 3 times and spent the equivalent of 8 hours meeting people and been basically told that they would see me soon. And then ghost. Not even a template "we have decided on another candidate" email. It's pretty bad all around.

Yerac, Monday, 7 May 2018 15:44 (five years ago) link

One week late though isn't terrible. Sometimes with vacations etc. it takes awhile to get proper approvals for hirings/salary. And if it's a large company and all the hiring approvals are systematically routed sometimes they get stuck/lost in the system. So fingers crossed still!

Yerac, Monday, 7 May 2018 15:47 (five years ago) link

^ That is exactly what the recruiter said to me so we'll see.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Monday, 7 May 2018 16:17 (five years ago) link

yeah some companies take forever to do anything. I got a rejection email a month and a half after taking an online personality test with this one company, and all i could think was jfc i’d hate to see what their turnaround was for a candidate they DO like.

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 7 May 2018 16:25 (five years ago) link

but yeah ghosting is all too common which sucks

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 7 May 2018 16:26 (five years ago) link

I made 2 follow up calls to the HR recruiter and sent an email to the hiring manager aka the hugger; feels so ominous and I was so keyed up all last week that now I just want to forget it all happened :(

I dunno when I was a hiring manager at the very least I would have had HR follow up--ghosting just seems so unprofessional, but sounds like it is not uncommon.

DOUBLE RUDE

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Monday, 7 May 2018 16:27 (five years ago) link

otm

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 7 May 2018 16:27 (five years ago) link

A long time ago now, but I contacted a company after going through the interview process some weeks before - I hadn't heard after like a month or 6 weeks or so, so I did my routine (at that time) request for feedback only to be told they were still going through the recruitment process! I did eventually work for them in another capacity.

I don't want to post too many details but an ILX-most-hated entity was potentially linked to my org for a while - was quite WTF but it went away in the end.

kinder, Monday, 7 May 2018 18:47 (five years ago) link

The last part there is very cryptic and I'm intrigued.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Monday, 7 May 2018 19:21 (five years ago) link

^^^

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 7 May 2018 20:12 (five years ago) link

NOT an ilxor, I should clarify!

kinder, Monday, 7 May 2018 21:39 (five years ago) link

she said "most-hated" so i'm thinking it was dave matthews, he is so bad and hated

forensic plumber (harbl), Monday, 7 May 2018 22:02 (five years ago) link

Him and Nataly Dawn were hired to head up the party planning committee

kinder, Monday, 7 May 2018 22:04 (five years ago) link

one month passes...

Does anyone in this forum know about submucosal fibroids and their removal? I have a consultation next week with a gynecologist, and I'm hoping this will help with my massively heavy periods.

Polly of the Pre-Codes (j.lu), Thursday, 7 June 2018 12:51 (five years ago) link

On the advice of my gyn and surgeon, I went full on hysterectomy to fix the fibroid problem. Went super smoothly for me. Seriously, I have had tooth extractions that were more difficult! But it was an easy decision for me since I wasn't gonna have kiddos anyway.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Thursday, 7 June 2018 14:57 (five years ago) link

Between my age and certain other preexisting conditions, having a baby would be a terrible idea. (Unfortunately, if I take after my mother I have another 5-7 years before menopause.) The gynecologist I saw last week suggested that my case could be handled in a one-day procedure, so I'm trying to do some research to figure out just I should ask the doctor next week. I wouldn't categorically object to a hysterectomy, but the shorter the recovery period the better.

Polly of the Pre-Codes (j.lu), Thursday, 7 June 2018 15:09 (five years ago) link

hi ladies!!!

homosexual II, Friday, 8 June 2018 17:42 (five years ago) link

Hiiiiiiiii I miss my wimmens

which do u hear yanny or (in orbit), Friday, 8 June 2018 17:51 (five years ago) link

regarding fibroids, I can't speak to that situation exactly, but I had polyps removed 5 years ago and it was a cinch. It made my period get WAY better.

Now it's bad again, which I guess means I have more polyps again argh

homosexual II, Friday, 8 June 2018 17:59 (five years ago) link

Good news: The doctor I saw today recommended doing a myomectomy ("shaving" the submucosal fibroid) plus endometrial ablation. This probably wouldn't eliminate my periods, but it should significantly reduce them, which is just FINE BY ME.

Polly of the Pre-Codes (j.lu), Tuesday, 12 June 2018 16:24 (five years ago) link

good luck! btw that sounds like an intense procedure

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 12 June 2018 17:58 (five years ago) link

Crossing my fingers. The doctor did describe it as an outpatient procedure, with "twilight sleep" as opposed to full anesthesia, and a couple of days recovery time. That makes it sound a lot less involved than a hysterectomy.

Polly of the Pre-Codes (j.lu), Tuesday, 12 June 2018 18:43 (five years ago) link

piece of cake <3

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 12 June 2018 21:26 (five years ago) link

two months pass...

hope everyone and their periods are ok
i have monster cramps right now and was a complete monster for like 3 days before this onslaught started
bumping this thread as a uterine salute i guess

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 August 2018 16:59 (five years ago) link

shouldn't say i was a monster -- i was extremely irritable and moody and unpleasant

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 August 2018 17:01 (five years ago) link

yeah god i was practically in tears at my desk last week just bcz reasons idk it was rough, my moods have been crazier than normal around period time lately

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 14 August 2018 17:29 (five years ago) link

#uterinesalute

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 14 August 2018 17:29 (five years ago) link

yeah i did a little reading about PMDD but it doesn't look like i am quite there yet
just suuuuuuuuuper moody and unsure of what is a real feeling and what is a PMS symptom

this is sort of interesting -- i never thought about my relationship to calcium https://www.webmd.com/women/pms/features/diet-and-pms#1

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 August 2018 17:32 (five years ago) link

(unless it was related to bone health -- that i know)

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 August 2018 17:33 (five years ago) link

yeah i’m kinda in that same zone too
but I find whenever I start thinking that I might need to see a therapist i’m usually a week out from the (uter)us festival

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 14 August 2018 17:38 (five years ago) link

it is so predictable and yet i never see it coming
hard to believe we go through this 12x annually and still don't know it's happening. why can't someone make a patch that changes color when your hormones shift toward the menstrual cycle so you can tell wtf is going on?!

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 August 2018 17:40 (five years ago) link

I had the worst cramps during my last period. I do get them every month but never this bad. I was almost crying.

The month before I leaked during the night which I never do. I was particularly annoyed as I had just washed to blanket the day before.

tokyo rosemary, Tuesday, 14 August 2018 19:45 (five years ago) link

Oh and this summer was my 30th anniversary!

tokyo rosemary, Tuesday, 14 August 2018 19:46 (five years ago) link

The mirena helped quite a bit with the severe lower back pain I used to get, although my boobs were excruciatingly sore the first year. Most women stop getting a period entirely but unfortunately that has not been my experience :/ it’s much lighter but still 10 days long.

I didn’t figure out I was a cranky-ass binge-eater the week before my period til I was in my 30s.

just1n3, Tuesday, 14 August 2018 22:10 (five years ago) link

part of what stops me from seeking treatment for PMS/potential PMDD is that i have decades of experience with hormonal BC and i firmly don't want to do it again. i really would like to know if someone can create a "your hormones are changing!" patch or blood test or something to help me understand what is going on with my body rather than just suppressing it with hormones.

i would also like to know if there is any research on women who were started on hormonal bc while they were still developing (1 year after menarche, for example) -- what happens to a person's development when their hormones are tweaked during the development process? i had never given it much thought until recently but it seems like something that would be worth studying. maybe a scientist somewhere has done research?

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 August 2018 22:17 (five years ago) link

I would rather not be on hormonal bc as I’ve had bad reactions in the past but the awful obgyn I saw when I got the iud said I had to be on some form or I’d be at risk of uterine cancer (heavy irregular periods can apparently lead to that?) but I’m gonna ask my new obgyn next time I have to go in

just1n3, Tuesday, 14 August 2018 22:24 (five years ago) link

If it's okay to change the subject, I had my myomectomy/endometrial ablation last week. It was an outpatient procedure under twilight sleep. I've had only mild twinges since the procedure. I've had a bloody discharge since, but it's been far lighter than my recent periods. Next week I have the followup meeting with the doctor.

Polly of the Pre-Codes (j.lu), Wednesday, 15 August 2018 01:41 (five years ago) link

Wait - you guys - period tracking apps are a game changer when it comes to this stuff. Clue. Download it now, thank me later.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Monday, 27 August 2018 19:27 (five years ago) link

hmmm... i will give it a whirl

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 27 August 2018 20:38 (five years ago) link

I thought I had irregular periods and never got PMS until I started using it but it turns out I have clockwork cycles and get PMS every month! Who knew?

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Monday, 27 August 2018 20:41 (five years ago) link

Honest I can't recommend using one of these trackers enough. I've learned so much.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Monday, 27 August 2018 20:42 (five years ago) link

good to know. maybe this will be a good game changer for me

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 27 August 2018 20:44 (five years ago) link

I kinda wanna try an app but without a period (since uterus eviction) but I do have periods of weird fatigue + food cravings and I wonder if they are cycle related?

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Monday, 27 August 2018 22:13 (five years ago) link

My periods are super regular and full of PMS symptoms -- I just always let them sneak up on me because I enjoy not having my period so much that I get blindsided by the feelings before the actual event occurs. Not sure if tracking it would really do anything for me aside from remind me of the impending doom...every single month.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, 27 August 2018 23:20 (five years ago) link

I find it very helpful because I forget too and it’s nice to be able to go “Oh, right! So THAT’S why I’m feeling so awful!”

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Tuesday, 28 August 2018 11:14 (five years ago) link

I find it very helpful because I forget too and it’s nice to be able to go “Oh, right! So THAT’S why I’m feeling so awful!”

yes! I started tracking mine using the "mynstrual calendar" in my day planner about a year and a half ago. Mine are speeding up -- i would not have known this otherwise. also, it's great because whomever inherits my personal effects after I die, will have a very useful historical record of my periods.

sarahell, Tuesday, 28 August 2018 17:50 (five years ago) link

Mine are getting kinda more irreg. Spotting at odd times, then a few days of nothing, then maybe a few days of normal flow. Maybe I should start tracking.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Tuesday, 28 August 2018 19:15 (five years ago) link

three weeks pass...

I was listening to a podcast where the hosts were discussing their love of free bleeding, and boy, do I feel like a total square! #teampurpleob4lyfe

tokyo rosemary, Saturday, 22 September 2018 02:50 (five years ago) link

For the love of god, WHYYYYYYYY?

Update (do not read if you hate me and/or menstrual blood): While I had a fibroid removal and endometrial ablation at the beginning of August, earlier this month I had a period almost as heavy as before my procedure. I'm waiting a month or two to see if this continues, but DEEP DISAPPOINTMENT.

Accattony! Accattoni! Accattoné! (j.lu), Saturday, 22 September 2018 03:30 (five years ago) link

ugh that suuuuuucks

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 22 September 2018 03:35 (five years ago) link

That sucks. I hope things lighten up.

tokyo rosemary, Saturday, 22 September 2018 03:35 (five years ago) link

and yeah free bleeding seems like not my bag at all
leven if they are the most magical undies in the world

i misjudge my flow & have leakage here & there but i never think if only i could just do nothing & still menstruate
yeah no thanks

i dont even know if i could do a diva cup
clearly i’ve been brainwashed by Big Tampon lol

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 22 September 2018 03:40 (five years ago) link

I don't know the details of free bleeding but if I am at home and it's not on day 1 big flow, I don't wear anything. I just go to the bathroom all the time. Every hour.

Yerac, Saturday, 22 September 2018 03:42 (five years ago) link

i’m too absentminded for that kind of responsible hygeine

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 22 September 2018 03:55 (five years ago) link

Yeah, it's a pain but usually when I am home I drink a ton of water and have to use the bathroom a lot anyway so I would rather not pull out dry tampons.I did diva cup once for a year but using it when you are in a public restroom was impossible. W

Yerac, Saturday, 22 September 2018 03:59 (five years ago) link

yerac - me too!! i like getting it out of me -- drink a ton of water, pee constantly, let it out as much as possible
i have never used a diva cup but i don't like tampons unless i don't have another option.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Saturday, 22 September 2018 13:50 (five years ago) link

I am fine with tampons. I use OB or the non-applicator generic brands that I can find in the EU that are super cheap. When someone needs to borrow a tampon and they realize it doesn't have an applicator and they won't just use their finger. I am always like "...eh...?"

Yerac, Saturday, 22 September 2018 14:30 (five years ago) link

that reminds me of my favorite thing ever said on ilx (that i can remember) -- kate78 reminded me (after expressing a similar thought) "not everyone is a natural spelunker"
<3 and lol and also true!

i'm fine with tampons if necessary -- maybe i am a free bleeding partisan. never thought of it that way before.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Saturday, 22 September 2018 14:37 (five years ago) link

Yerac’s post made me think of something - I have heard that there are people who replace their tanpon every time they pee. I have never even thought about doing that. I just tuck the string. Do most ppl change them every time they pee? I assume the reason some ppl do this is because the idea of getting pee on the string grosses them out? It’s the only thing I can think of.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Saturday, 22 September 2018 14:43 (five years ago) link

seems like that would hurt to change it every time
pulling out a dry tampon is the fucking worst

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Saturday, 22 September 2018 14:48 (five years ago) link

Back when I had a uterus I definitely did not change tampon with every pee. With good string management there really isn't risk of pee cross-contamination!

Tucking string up was a revelation when first shared with me by female swim team members.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Saturday, 22 September 2018 14:49 (five years ago) link

I was surprised with an early period at work a few months ago, and I had to use a tampon with an applicator, and I sort of forgot how they work.

tokyo rosemary, Saturday, 22 September 2018 14:54 (five years ago) link

I try to tuck the string, but maybe I have weird urine flow. or I don't shove it far up enough. the string always gets wet. And then it makes your underwear wet. So yeah, I end up having to change it half the time.

Yerac, Saturday, 22 September 2018 15:13 (five years ago) link

I hate buying tampons in chile because they only sell them like 8 to a box. Who only needs 8 tampons???

Yerac, Saturday, 22 September 2018 15:14 (five years ago) link

It’s weird - most tampons in nz are NOT applicator ones. I had a hard time when I moved to the US trying to find the same thing. I find applicators awkward bc I cant tell where the tampon is. My period has lightened to the point that it doesn’t really ... travel?? Like, I quite often these days don’t use anything if I’m at home or work bc it kinda just sits up there until I have to pee.

just1n3, Saturday, 22 September 2018 16:49 (five years ago) link

They should sell tampons in a box of 100.

tokyo rosemary, Saturday, 22 September 2018 18:22 (five years ago) link

damn, as a change-tampon-after-pee person, it makes me feel like the equivalent of a foot flusher! (lol, I am so not a foot flusher) it's not about pee contamination at all, but I've noticed or at least believe I have noticed, that when the tampon gets damp from peeing, it is less absorbent of blood and leakage is more likely, so I just change it.

also, if it's a light day and it's a weekend and I'm working from home, I will totally free bleed, because fuck having to buy light tampons - it's super, super plus, or idgaf. Like, I've been menstruating for over 30 years, I have a collection of underwear that are kinda designated for those days.

sarahell, Saturday, 22 September 2018 18:55 (five years ago) link

Lol I totally thought of the foot flushing when I asked the question. It’s the same sorta thing somehow.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Saturday, 22 September 2018 20:00 (five years ago) link

Overnight though, on Day 1 and/or 2, I do wear a tampon and a pad. I also keep my headlamp nearby in case I have to do in the middle of the night crime scene clean up.

Yerac, Saturday, 22 September 2018 20:16 (five years ago) link

one month passes...

Has anyone ever used the Thinx period underwear?

Yerac, Friday, 9 November 2018 17:15 (five years ago) link

can we talk about period sync-ing? I quit my old job a couple months ago where I worked closely with a female co-worker, and I think my cycle is shifting, or rather, shifting back to "normal" now that I don't have any other women in my life that I'm that close to, lol. I also have 3 friends who share workspace and they are sync-ed. Is this some woo-woo thing or is it real?

sarahell, Wednesday, 21 November 2018 16:52 (five years ago) link

I am fine with tampons. I use OB or the non-applicator generic brands that I can find in the EU that are super cheap. When someone needs to borrow a tampon and they realize it doesn't have an applicator and they won't just use their finger. I am always like "...eh...?"

― Yerac, Saturday, September 22, 2018 2:30 PM (one month ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

+ me but also there are def days when I just feel like my body parts are taking up enough space and they don't want to be disturbed. Shut the front door. I would be tote cool w free-bleeding if I could stay home!

I used to know someone who just slept on an old towel at night, which I can see myself doing but I can see it would absolutely depend on your personal flow & viscosity & comfort. And how much you love your sheets.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 21 November 2018 17:01 (five years ago) link

I want the period underwear because I want the nighttime backup.

Yerac, Wednesday, 21 November 2018 17:11 (five years ago) link

I used to know someone who just slept on an old towel at night

Ah! Akin to the period sex housekeeping technique

sarahell, Wednesday, 21 November 2018 17:31 (five years ago) link

the wha?

my period has probably been synced with my immediate coworkers (all women) for almost a decade. we don't even talk about it anymore, it just is.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 21 November 2018 18:18 (five years ago) link

y'know if you are having sex on your period you put an old towel under you so the sheets don't get stained?

sarahell, Wednesday, 21 November 2018 18:20 (five years ago) link

xxxp if you don’t mind me asking, what kind of nighttime coverage have you been using up to now?

gyac, Wednesday, 21 November 2018 18:24 (five years ago) link

Yerac, I have the Icon ones for pee leakage from the same company that makes the Thinx ones - they're well-cut, comfortable, wash well and hang dry in a day or two. Before hitting the 'pause I used the period ones from Lunapads (with changeable fabric liners) and they were fine but the fabric of the panties had a higher cotton content so stretched out more. The leg elastic on them didn't hold up well over time either.

Jaq, Wednesday, 21 November 2018 18:49 (five years ago) link

Right now i just use a tampon overnight and get up 1-2 times to change it on, mostly because I am paranoid about waking up in a bloodbath which happens 1-2 times a year. I don't think I would wear the period pants on its own ever but want it as a shield for like, long plane rides or when I am stuck not anywhere near bathrooms.

Yerac, Wednesday, 21 November 2018 18:54 (five years ago) link

i would totally use the period undies, just haven't bought them. good thing the holiday season is coming up!

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 21 November 2018 19:01 (five years ago) link

oh also sarahell yes i am familiar with that technique -i thought you were talking about some family planning shit!

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 21 November 2018 19:02 (five years ago) link

xp - ah the Carrie mornings! I actually recently got this oversized pink dress that I use as a nightgown, and it's really almost cinematic when I have a Carrie morning

sarahell, Wednesday, 21 November 2018 19:03 (five years ago) link

xp, thx, good to know about the cotton content on Luna.

Yerac, Wednesday, 21 November 2018 19:09 (five years ago) link

three weeks pass...

dudes mansplaining about incels and feminism ugh

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 03:29 (five years ago) link

hey ladies whassup

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 03:30 (five years ago) link

hi quincie! <3

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 03:31 (five years ago) link

Hi hi hi!!!!

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 03:31 (five years ago) link

I'd like to keep this thread going somehow because I miss more of a female presence on ilx and worry that women's voices are becoming heroic and token-ish.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 03:41 (five years ago) link

I’ve made and cancelled 2 gyno appointments in the last month even tho I’m already more than a year overdue for a Pap test. The worst part is that I’ve got a small lump inside that I should really get checked out (it’s been there at least 6 months and hasn’t grown, so).

I wish I could just get this shit done.

just1n3, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 05:09 (five years ago) link

In more fun news, I got this cool dress thing from my MIL for my birthday:
https://www.shopzuri.com/collections/all/products/hearttoheart?variant=9592210292783

just1n3, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 05:11 (five years ago) link

wow that is v cool

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 05:37 (five years ago) link

Xp Bartholin’s gland cyst, maybe? They are very common and nbd unless it is bothersome (painful).

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 05:51 (five years ago) link

That dress is so badass

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 05:53 (five years ago) link

Yeah it doesn’t hurt and is v v small so I haven’t been worried, but also I’m v much head-the-sand when it comes to health problems 😬

just1n3, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 06:25 (five years ago) link

I recently found some of my paper dolls from 30 years ago. Some are from the Eva Joia Club magazine and some I drew myself. I keep meaning to take pictures of them.

tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 11:28 (five years ago) link

I love that dress. The period tracker app I finally started using: month 4, it is 50% accurate at this point. But thaat's more a problem of my cycle than anything. I was early by 5 days last month!

Yerac, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 12:29 (five years ago) link

xpost quincie I can barely anymore with these guys muddling through their "manhood." It's probably why I go the asshole route because I get so irritated. This shit shouldn't be this hard.

Yerac, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 12:32 (five years ago) link

i think about this thread a lot, hello thread

estela, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 14:20 (five years ago) link

hello y'all

i am tired of arguing

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 15:08 (five years ago) link

Helloa estelloa!

Yeah I don't care enough to argue w people anymore so I end up...not posting. Mostly I wish I had more time to DO things, like gardening or DIY. Yerac, you'e a champ.

After the holidays I'm going to get my health stuff in order: heart health & other things. Too many ppl in my family have had heart trouble and I'm worried by the difference in symptoms between men and women: the "known" signs of a cardiac event are burning, tension in chest, pain in arm, ie the things that men experience. But apparently in women, the start of a heart attack feels like...back pain or muscle tension in your upper back. Which I have literally every day and resolve with foam roller and/or rubber balls to roll out the cramps. But if it were something else, how would I know? So...to the doctor I go.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 15:30 (five years ago) link

Yeah, we are on a cycle of pain so I don't know if I would be able to pinpoint something extremely abnormal. And I would probably wait until I could no longer move to see a doctor. I was thinking yesterday of maybe looking more at the iwatch or whatever it's called that has the ekg thing. Even though I swore off buy anything new apple.

Yerac, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 15:38 (five years ago) link

Both my dad and my younger brother have already had heart attacks and I worry that I've possibly already experienced some kind of cardiac events but when the symptoms are "dizziness, fatigue, muscle ache, nausea" which are also the symptoms of every kind of sickness EVER, there's a certain lack of clarity about where to direct my unfocused anxiety.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 15:54 (five years ago) link

I always think I am having kidney failure right before I get my period and then I have to remember how much higher my kidneys are.

My brother had a heart attack at 38 but I am pretty sure that was due to steroids and too much chinese takeout.

Yerac, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 15:58 (five years ago) link

i am giving myself the gift of mental health this holiday season. pretty excited about it tbh!!

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 16:05 (five years ago) link

this is the first time i have deemed myself worth the trouble. a positive development!

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 16:05 (five years ago) link

in orbit i am glad you are also concerned about your health -- caring for our bodies can be terrifying. keep breathing!

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 16:08 (five years ago) link

Excited for you LL! You are worth whatever it takes! Ilu. How is the quest for mental health going? There should be a board game.

My brother's heart attack was in his mid-30s and he was an extremely fit cyclist with a low resting heart rate so I'm probably rolling the dice. I need to love myself more and make better and less fatalistic choices. I'm starting to look at being with my romantic partner in the longer term and it's giving me all kinds of complexes.

Speaking of which I know a lot of us have our own special relationships with the institution of marriage, and I, for one, am extremely freaked out by the whole idea but life is kind of forcing me into it thanks to our broken health care system and my desire to hold an EU passport lol. I welcome any reflections on weddings, married-ness, etc.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 16:28 (five years ago) link

i wasn't super into being married but i have been for 15 years this year and it has been great! sounds stupid, but i love being able to choose my family and he is it.

as for my mental health, i have started by trying to repair my severely fucked up nervous system via flotation therapy and i am way into it. it's everything i hoped it would be.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 16:33 (five years ago) link

weddings are whatever you want them to be, or not. i think everyone should do their own thing based on their personal and cultural needs.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 16:36 (five years ago) link

based on my friends' experiences of weddings (i haven't had a wedding, but want one ... long story), it seems like the most stress comes from family and family expectations vs. what you want ... also money.

sarahell, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 16:48 (five years ago) link

yeah that is why i added the "cultural needs"
i didn't have that issue and my parents were used to me at that point. i agreed to not elope and that was about it.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 16:52 (five years ago) link

Event planning gives me hives and I have no desire to spend .01$ on this although my perspective could change over the next year+ before it would actually happen. Like I said, it's a ways out there. I'm just having to be slightly more concrete about something I thought was safely far away in my future. Lol suddenly the future is now.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 17:00 (five years ago) link

Going several non-traditional routes for which there is not an over-abundance of role models: marriage without a wedding (not that unusual anymore) and not living together (possibly never living together), which is a little weirder (shout out to Yerac for blazing this trail). Whatever we need and can support happening is what will happen obvs--I'm not going to go crazy.

Just reflecting. Also bored at work tbh.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 17:04 (five years ago) link

event planning also gives me hives and i hate spending money so that is why i didn't do it. you are under no obligation to do it either unless your family is literally forcing you. just relax about it and do what you want.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 17:07 (five years ago) link

I love planning events and have done so professionally, hence why I want a wedding at some point in my life ... but if you have a strong aversion to event planning ... yeah. follow the wisdom of La Lechera

sarahell, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 17:11 (five years ago) link

Oh, I want to hear more about flotation therapy whenever you have time.

inorbit, just do whatever you want to do. I did. the only thing I would've changed is maybe not having drank so much two nights before during a co-op board meeting when i hadn't been drinking all month. I also did not invite my brothers which I have absolutely no regrets about. I am trying to think what we spent money on.
F got a new tie and shirt (our friend who works at RL took him to use his employee discount)
I got a non-wedding dress off the internet and that jacket I wanted
Picked out flowers for a bouquet the night before at Sprout in Blyn it was like $40
Paid for my parents' hotel room
Fees for city hall (we didn't have a photographer, just my friend's iphone)
Subway?
F's dad paid for lunch after at Gramercy Tavern
Dinner for 16 people at L'artusi the night after in their wine room. We went through like, 22 bottles of wine. But I think it still stayed decently priced at like ~$2000?
Karaoke after in koreatown, byob. I really don't know how long people stayed. ~$400-$500?

Yerac, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 17:27 (five years ago) link

And things change, F and I went two years without living together, 6 years living together and then 7 years not living together. Both of us had full developed other lives so it wasn't a big deal. Now we've been living together again for the last 2 years? And I had huge anxiety the night we got married "like wtf have I done?" And then I got over it. It's all exactly the same.

Yerac, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 17:31 (five years ago) link

Jesus christ I haven't told my family anything, I'm not an idiot. If my mom finds out we even talked about it, I'll have created a monster.

I haven't figured out where my over-abundance of ~*^~*FEELINGS~*^*~^* is coming from, I'm sure more than one place. I'm not that into marriage and feel kind of claustrophobic at the thought of "forever," but the legal formality solves several other problems. And my partner deserves for me to fish or cut bait and not act like I need to have one foot out the door all the time. I mean I know myself, I'm not going anywhere and my life would be poorer without my partner, who's absolutely committed to me and supportive of basically whatever I want. I'm just not very relationship-focused/romantic/whatever, I'm sure partly because I was taught all this Evangelical Christian marriage stuff for 20+ years of my life. It's time for me to heal myself from my past I think, and be able to move forward.

Sorry for processing out loud a bit.

xp LOLOLOLOL "And I had huge anxiety the night we got married "like wtf have I done?" And then I got over it. It's all exactly the same." <--- this sounds familiar and is extremely helpful.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 17:32 (five years ago) link

what would you like to know? i think everyone gets their own benefits from it and arrives at it for their own reasons. my strategy for talking about it is to ask "do you find the words 'sensory deprivation' appealing?" and if so, i keep talking. if not, i stop.

for me, it's an absolute dream come true. obviously it would not be for everyone.

It's time for me to heal myself from my past I think, and be able to move forward. otm -- that is why i am optimistic about my gift to myself of mental health.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 17:34 (five years ago) link

it = flotation therapy, sorry for xposting

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 17:34 (five years ago) link

I was having panic attacks in the middle of the night after it was all done. It was terrible. And I so don't care about marriage and think it's a terrible deal for most women.

I told my parents a month before calling from an airport right before I got on an international flight. I was just like, this is what's happening, it will be lowkey, you don't need to come but if you do I will keep two seats at dinner for you.

Yerac, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 17:37 (five years ago) link

oh, i know almost nothing about it and thought it was for going into a meditative state.

Yerac, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 17:39 (five years ago) link

in some ways it is. i am using it to heal my nervous system, which has been malfunctioning to the point that it is interfering with my ability to function normally.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 17:40 (five years ago) link

my life would be poorer without my partner, who's absolutely committed to me and supportive of basically whatever I want. I'm just not very relationship-focused/romantic/whatever

of course you should focus on what you want and you need, whether that's this partner, or any partner. Idk I have a close friend that is the serial monogamist type that is having issues w/r/t her partner, who lives with her, and she has complicated feelings, mixed feelings, but she will say, "well, he is in love with me and is supportive of whatever I want to do" -- and to me, there's an element of gender conditioning there, where as women, we are taught that we need to be in a relationship and that we are, in a sense, the object of our partner's affection, and it's less about what we want, whether this partner is the right person for us. I definitely grew up with that. So, it's the kind of thing where I end up questioning "is this what I really want, or is this about me finding contentment in meeting socio-cultural standards for success as a woman?"

sarahell, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 17:42 (five years ago) link

otm "is this what I really want, or is this about me finding contentment in meeting socio-cultural standards for success as a woman?"

I hate that women think getting married is success or an achievement.

Yerac, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 17:48 (five years ago) link

my strategy is to just forget about these straw-women -- even if they do exist, i don't share their belief system. for example, many people (friends, people i haven't even met) snap-judge me because i changed my name when i got married. in reality, those people don't know the first thing about me, why i made the very deliberate decision to do that, or what its significance is to me. who cares what they think? i sort of relish people being mostly wrong about me if they are going to leap to conclusions about something they know nothing about. been dealing with this my whole life tbh. fuck it!

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 18:05 (five years ago) link

xp to LL: That is concerning and I'm glad you found something therapeutic that you'd been wanting for a long time!

xxp to sarahell: I hear you and agree with all of that. I think I would be fine not being in a relationship but this person brings a lot of things to my life that I would miss and would have a less rich life if they were gone. If I did the math I'm sure I get more than I put in, by my own measure, because he has different needs than I do and that's our balance. I would be fine staying together without marrying but the world is not that way--the first time he has any health need, it will bankrupt him, and looking long term I don't want him to die because he can't go to a cardiologist or w/e. So for our mutual well-being I need to resolve some of my shit.

xxxp: my strategy is to just forget about these straw-women -- even if they do exist, i don't share their belief system. SNAPS X 1000

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 18:08 (five years ago) link

god it feels good to say "fuck it!"

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 18:13 (five years ago) link

you are all great and I support you in the fuck its!

sarahell, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 18:18 (five years ago) link

Ilx is quite difficult to come to as a new person and it feels (to me anyway) like everyone knows each other a long time and that can be quite intimidating because you don’t want to be the stupid outsider blundering in. I feel this even more keenly with threads like this, but I’m posting here cos I’m glad it exists and I also notice the lack of female posters in most threads.

I generally stick to a few threads for various reasons (UK politics mostly because it’s relevant and it’s nerdy enough for me not to bore people irl about it), but I have read the same threads as previously mentioned and have avoided posting on there for much the same reasons.

I used to be much much more interested in talking about these sorts of topics when I was younger online but I got so ground down by having my experiences denied and just really aggressive responses and it’s like, what’s the fucking point? It doesn’t change anyone’s minds.

Sorry to go on like, but tl;dr I like this thread even if I don’t know anyone else on here and I’m always happy to see it active!

in orbit, I used to want to get married when I was younger and I’ve been engaged a while but really feel no urgency to do so, weirdly. 99% of the reason is worrying about disappointing family and mental health (lol I’m a mess) but I love my other half and want to be married to him. Ideally I’d love to just say fuck it and do a registry office wedding but my family, I think, expect certain things. I should really just do it.

LL, I hope you don’t mind me commenting, but that’s a really great thing to read. I hope it goes well for you.

gyac, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 18:52 (five years ago) link

most of the posters here have been here way longer than me, so I totally empathize re new-ness

sarahell, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 19:00 (five years ago) link

And I just realised reading that that I’ve posted on and off here for years, so I realise it might sound ridiculous lol but it’s how I still feel! Thank you, I’m glad I’m not the only one!

gyac, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 19:01 (five years ago) link

I was going to say, I for sure know your name!

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 19:07 (five years ago) link

I lurked on ilx for the first couple of years because I was intimidated at the intellectual standard of discussion. So even though I've been here for a long time, I was not immune. Now I don't know if I'm less intimidated or we're all dumber. Probably both.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 19:12 (five years ago) link

Hi, gyac!

tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 20:16 (five years ago) link

i am absolutely less intimidated than i was ...13 years ago when i slowly started posting (??!?!?!?)
also now people tend to ignore me when they don't like what i have to say instead of attacking, which is nice

i am actually a lot more sensitive to verbal attacks (compared to physical) and i MUCH prefer to be ignored

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 21:13 (five years ago) link

L, I’m with everyone else - if you get married, do it how you want. You don’t even have to tell anyone- you could just go to the courthouse and do it.

Personally, I regret having a wedding. We did the courthouse thing first for immigration stuff, and I wish I’d known how special *that* would feel, and made it more of a thing for just me and my husband. We had a tiny wedding ceremony a year later and it was pretty lame for the most part.

I have friends who eloped to Vegas, other friends who eloped to Hawaii, and an old ilxor did a cool thing where they eloped and got really nice photos done in marfa (I think).

just1n3, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 21:32 (five years ago) link

I think of it this way:
My wedding was pretty dumb but my 10 yr marriage has been nothing but awesome (LL so otm about choosing your family - I never felt like I had a real family till I met him). My BFF had a gorgeous destination wedding in Italy at a castle or something, it was crazy decadent and she had an amazing day. A few years later her and husband were cheating on each other and then divorced.

just1n3, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 21:36 (five years ago) link

HMMMM. Maybe we can elope to India or something. He likes it there.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 22:04 (five years ago) link

many xposts but: in orbit, does your upper back pain tend to be in your right shoulder blade? Do you get cripplingly painful, er, pains around your upper abdomen ever?
Just cos I had this (without ever realising it was focused around my right shoulder blade or attributing it to using a mouse all day with my right hand) and it was gallstones. my doctor was useless and it was women on another message borad who correctly diagnosed me

kinder, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 22:17 (five years ago) link

xxpost

I think a major benefit of marrying was having my employer give me less shit about taking 3 weeks off for a "honeymoon" in Sri Lanka. They grumbled less than if I'd said "hey I'm taking three weeks off to go to Sri Lanka by myself." Assholes.

My two cents is that I grew up with the whole "marriage is hard work!" thing. Which it was, when I was in the wrong marriage. Now that I am in the right marriage, it isn't any work at all. Honestly it is quite easy, and makes other things (like living expenses, housework, and legal shit) easier.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 22:21 (five years ago) link

Huh! Yes maybe! Maybe both shoulder blades? I also scooter in the cold so I usually assume it's a handlebar position thing/smart phone/mouse use thing. And the abdominal pain is a given--I stopped eating a lot of things because of that but never got a diagnosis. I went to a GP years ago and she was dismissive and I never got a 2nd opinion = I am truly terrible at taking care of my health.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 22:23 (five years ago) link

Maybe worth looking into the symptoms? Although they often say it follows eating fatty food which I never particularly noticed myself. You can get a scan for gallstones or as I had, 'sludge'.
My symptoms were: it felt like period pain tension in my upper back, usually right shoulder, nearly always at night. Drinking lots of water and peeing loads helped a bit. Then I started getting the colic 'attacks' which I think ilxor carl agatha described as feeling like 'someone murdering you around your upper body' - I thought I was having a heart attack, nothing could really relieve it although a warm bath helped, it just had to go on its own and then the RELIEF when it stops - perhaps 2-3 times a year. Apparently being female, fair, forty (and "fat", but they can get lost) are risk factors... (I know you are female and fair, that's all!)

kinder, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 22:32 (five years ago) link

Xp yes! I don’t really get the “marriage is hard work”. Mine has been easy af.

just1n3, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 22:34 (five years ago) link

re marriage, I got married really young and I'm kind of glad because I wouldve really overthought everything if I'd done it as a proper adult. As it was the wedding was fun and the first one most of us/our friends had attended. We sort of thought we were being kind of unconventional which is lol because we're now super boring with kids, mortgage etc. But getting married was probably the major life change that affected our relationship the least, certainly less than buying a house or having kids or moving abroad. Nothing physically changes really so you could try and spend a week imagining you've gotten married and see how you feel?! (I say that because an acquaintance of mine got married then annulled right away because they 'hadn't really realised what being married would be like' which I don't get at all but apparently the guy's behaviour changed a fair bit).

xps yeah we have both always been bewildered at 'marriage is hard work'. Perhaps when you have conflicting logistical issues like having to be in one place for one person's dream job but another place for the other's? But that's not limited to married ppl.

kinder, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 22:39 (five years ago) link

so hey
Two women are killed each week by a current or former partner
I'm pretty mad about this

I feel like if I bring it up in the incel thread or any other thread where ppl are noodling about sidelined men or whatever, it's a bit 'whither Darfur'
but literally no-one seems to know or care about women being murdered all the time by men or the general level of domestic violence that ruins lives

(this is not re: the marriage discussion btw!)

kinder, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 22:45 (five years ago) link

There’s a big thing in New Zealand right now over this stuff - a 22 yr old British tourist was murdered by her tinder date so now it’s all “what should women be doing to prevent this” and a huge backlash from nz women who are like “do u have any idea how much stuff we ALREADY DO to protect ourselves?!?”

just1n3, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 22:50 (five years ago) link

https://t.co/cdm5z3JQyV

just1n3, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 22:51 (five years ago) link

as a trans woman who just began transitioning this year, I empathize deeply. one of the first things I did was start carrying pepper spray, and I am always deeply aware of how many strange men are nearby and how close they are. (the first time I got on an elevator with multiple men on it I nearly had a panic attack.) I feel somewhat lucky to not have to worry about intimate partner violence, but there are definitely times I feel, if not actually unsafe, then edgy about my safety in ways I never did prior to transitioning.

Plinka Trinka Banga Tink (Eliza D.), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 22:56 (five years ago) link

I’m in the UK right now and the NZ murder is all over the news here too. It’s terrible and I’ve been thinking about how vulnerable I feel all the time. We are taught to constantly be on alert and that at any time someone could attack us and whether or not we realize it we live our lives doing things to prevent that. I can’t eve walk the damn dog at night without looking over my shoulder and checking shadows. It’s scary and sad.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 23:14 (five years ago) link

My mother was a controlling monster when I got married and I wound up having the wedding she wanted rather than the one I wanted so IO don’t tell yr mom and don’t worry too much about it. Do whatever the hell you want imo.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 23:15 (five years ago) link

yeah you find yourself thinking 'should I be doing this after dark' then you realise it gets dark at 4pm wtf

kinder, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 23:16 (five years ago) link

3:30 today :( which reminds me I’m meant to be looking for one of those lamps for SAD.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 23:20 (five years ago) link

I interpret the "relationships are hard work" thing as like, nobody likes to compromise and nobody likes to face their faults, and combining two people's domiciles, schedules, foibles, professions, and daily lives can't happen without both. My choice is just to not combine as many of those things so there are fewer points of conflict. For that and several other reasons I'm not planning to share a home. The End.

My relationship is less emotional strain than any relationship I've ever had before and contains 0% uncertainty and insecurity about my partner's level of commitment or happiness, which was always present in previous relationships. On the other hand my partner is in some ways not who I thought I would end up with, so there are compromises in what kinds of things I thought we would be able to share. Some of the things I thought I needed to have (shared quiet time, love of books and reading, subtle & sparkling "intellectual conversations," whatever that means to you) may never happen. Other things I didn't expect in a relationship are suddenly offered to me on a platter. So I guess accepting that trade-off is kind of a challenge to me--that this is not a placeholder or an "experiment" anymore after almost 5 years. (Jesus. How did that happen?)

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 23:23 (five years ago) link

Just caught up on this thread. fwiw, i do know a lot of married/long term couples who live apart. But it's primarily academics who can't find jobs near each other so they make do until such time they can live together. And usually they are so busy the time apart helps with staying focused. I would've loved to have lived with F the entire time (18 years now), but being countries apart sometimes was fine because we tended to make each other lazy and it gave us time to grow up on our own. Our marriage is not hard work. The marriage was basically paperwork (3 or 4 years ago?). We have been each others best friend forever. Well except for when we had our dog.

Now I am don't even want to look at that incel thread except to blow it up. Someone else (kinder) should post what you were going to post about women being killed. They obviously did not read the piece that inorbit posted.

Yerac, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 23:40 (five years ago) link

nah I'm going to bed

kinder, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 23:46 (five years ago) link

Also, don't tim burton and helena bonham carter keep separate homes?

inorbit, plus your partner seems to know a lot about hardwood floors and this seems like A+++.
I also recognize gyac's name. Post more!

Yerac, Wednesday, 12 December 2018 23:46 (five years ago) link

The director of a non-profit I worked for and her husband kept separate homes and said it was the best decision they ever made.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Wednesday, 12 December 2018 23:47 (five years ago) link

I think it’s super important to know what relationship “style” works for you and be ok with it, don’t worry if it’s not conventional. My husb and I live in each other’s pockets bc that’s what we both like, but I don’t think it’s weird that other ppls relationships function differently to mine. You gotta do what works for you.

Speaking of unconventional...
So I’m friends with this couple who’ve been together 10 yrs or so but we sort of lost contact about 4 yrs ago and only recently reconnected.
They bought a house about a year ago.. a few months after they split up bc she wants kids and he doesn’t. They couldn’t afford to live alone separately but they could afford to buy a house. So they did. After they split.
She was planning to use a sperm donor but wasn’t at all psyched so her ex offered to do it... but will not be a father to the child. That will be living in the same house as him. It is v v unusual.

just1n3, Thursday, 13 December 2018 00:05 (five years ago) link

xpost

My thoughts on the incel thread: something about it just rubs me the wrong way. It got me reflecting on the fact that ilx feels very more dude than it did in years past. It's always been pretty dude, but I really feel that women's participation has dropped off precipitously. And what really gets my goat is that dudes don't seem to find this particularly bothersome. Like, no skin off their penises or whatever. Maybe they overall prefer a dude-centric ilx. Like, they can be outraged feminist allies but don't bother thinking about why and how so few female posters are around compared to five years ago or whatever.

Ilx has been a part of my life for a while, and I really feel a loss here. Perhaps in a year that didn't feature Trump, Kavanaugh, and other awfulness it wouldn't bother me so much. But it does and I'm pissed. On a board full of dude feminists, the feminism is directed *outside* of ilx, and shit all to do with our own little piece of the internet. Because it doesn't seem to bother ilxdudes, and I like a lot of these dudes and am bummed that their ilxlives seem none the worse for absence of fifty one percent of the fucking sky ha.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Thursday, 13 December 2018 00:13 (five years ago) link

xpost OK that is pretty weird. Although I had a friend that did marry her friend (who was her ex bf of 3 years) so he could get a green card. They never did get back together or anything and totally led separate lives. Finally got a divorce after 10 years.

inorbit he seems like a great guy. Taxes get harder but other administrative stuff is easier. If things work for you guys, it works. F and I are always 2 feet away from each other but if one of us has to go away it only takes a day to get into our other lives routines. And don't worry about your family. I got some grief about it but I would've been miserable otherwise, and i felt way too old for that shit. I was already freaking out about just having to make a dinner reservation for 16 people and making sure all people would get there. There was no way I could've dealt with an actual wedding.

Yerac, Thursday, 13 December 2018 00:13 (five years ago) link

literally no-one seems to know or care about women being murdered all the time by men or the general level of domestic violence that ruins lives

i think about this a lot. esp when that doctor was murdered in front of a chicago hospital where she worked by a man she had recently broken up with. i heard and saw more than a few news outlets report it began as "a domestic dispute" and no -- it did not. she broke up with him and he couldn't deal so he murdered her. he had been booted from the fire academy for (literally) "misogyny" and yet someone still sold him a gun legally. like...what the fucking fuck. no.

i don't feel like recounting my experiences with being attacked but most recently i was harassed by a student last semester. i am purposely not sharing the details of what he did because that doesn't matter. what matters is that it affected me in a number of adverse ways (which i also won't detail because I am a private person) and my other students picked up on it and would wait with me after class every single week until he left. i reported it and we resolved the issue. i was not physically attacked in any way. did it take a toll on me? fuck yeah it did. fuck that shit.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 13 December 2018 00:18 (five years ago) link

There are so often stories in the news here (aus) about a woman being found dead, and every time I say to myself "I bet the partner did it" and EVERY TIME I am right. Every fucking time.

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Thursday, 13 December 2018 00:25 (five years ago) link

I mean it feels like it is higher than the road toll at the moment. Australian men have some real fucked up anger issues. A lot of problems with alcohol in this country. And ice.

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Thursday, 13 December 2018 00:26 (five years ago) link

quincie, it also rubs me the wrong way because it's the exact same discussion from however long ago and seemingly despite this shit being in the news every single day, they are still like ..nah, why in the world are some people uncomfortable with groups of men??? It was so trumpian. I had a serious gap in ilx posting where I was seeing people in real life more and just forgot about ilx but I don't remember this feeling of disappointment in the guys here.

I have almost posted this several times on that incel thread about it but didn't because I know how inflammatory it would be but "I really don't give a shit if a guy is sad and jobless and he doesn't want to leave his house because no woman wants to fuck him. Just don't kill or assault anyone."

Yerac, Thursday, 13 December 2018 00:26 (five years ago) link

I’m on my phone and feel like an idiot but I can’t fond this thread. Which is it?

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Thursday, 13 December 2018 00:29 (five years ago) link

It's the maleness and masculinity thread.

Yerac, Thursday, 13 December 2018 00:30 (five years ago) link

i 100% sure do not need to dissect their poisoned worldview. no thank you. i really do think they need some intense and fundamental reprogramming. that's my inflammatory opinion.

and back to the harassment situation -- you know why it doesn't matter what he did? i should be given the benefit of the doubt about what happened to me. i am a reliable narrator. i should not be expected much less required to relive the experience just so some jackhole knows i was sufficiently harassed to warrant disciplinary action. just believe me. that is what i have always wanted and seems to be in short supply in the world at large. the demand for "evidence" of harm makes me so angry that i can't see tbh. (i had evidence btw) see also: kavanaugh shit, which sent me all the way over the edge :(

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 13 December 2018 00:31 (five years ago) link

Kavanaugh has been worse for me than the 2016 election. I have discovered depths of anger that frankly surprised me. There were a few days there where I really think I could literally have ripped eyeballs out of someone's head. I thought myself a pretty nonviolent person, but I *fantasized* about it.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Thursday, 13 December 2018 00:34 (five years ago) link

xpost The evidence is you, but I know it doesn't work that way when it's a woman.

Yerac, Thursday, 13 December 2018 00:35 (five years ago) link

Just now had a guy, the second this week, stop by the house and ask if my husband was home. Because the guy was selling firewood. Which *I* purchase every year. S didn't know that a cord was a unit of measurement. But apparently he is more capable of business transactions than I, the person standing in front of you right now. fuuuuuuuuck yooooooou

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Thursday, 13 December 2018 00:37 (five years ago) link

also "is your husband home" is a fucking creepy question!!!!!

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 13 December 2018 00:39 (five years ago) link

Maybe the firewood had a hole to stick a dick in, did you ever think about that? I am so sick of these stupid, stupid men. But then again my spouse is pretty great, and even though I get pretty evil sometimes he always thinks I am great.

Yerac, Thursday, 13 December 2018 00:41 (five years ago) link

If anyone is sad by the weather in the US they can come visit me in Chile right now. It stays bright out until 9pm.

Yerac, Thursday, 13 December 2018 00:42 (five years ago) link

i am unable to control myself and go completely off the rails when i am confronted with men (performing a home-related service) inside my house who won't listen to me
have had a number of bad experiences with that
hence my malfunctioning nervous system obvs :(
god -- CBF and the second front door, i still think about that from time to time

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 13 December 2018 00:43 (five years ago) link

actually the malfunctions are not caused by the incidents -- they are inflamed, which causes days of aggravation and recovery
fuck that shit

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 13 December 2018 00:44 (five years ago) link

la lechera, ,I am firmly against people needing to see excessive pain of women or needing to know the assaultive details to consider it serious enough. No. The entire world needs to be reprogrammed.

Yerac, Thursday, 13 December 2018 00:46 (five years ago) link

indeed :(

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 13 December 2018 00:46 (five years ago) link

i'm single and live alone, and sometimes when I go outside to have a cigarette, some man I don't recognize will walk by, and sometimes I will flinch. Then there are the occasional attempts at flirtation which are usually not too creepy, but there are a handful of guys that every time they walk by when I'm outside they will say something ... and I have this client, who's a guy, who will come over and I will work with, and sometimes I wish the awkward flirters would walk by when I am outside having a cig with the male client so I can give the impression that I have a boyfriend or am married and they might leave me alone ... also feel shitty about having that thought because I feel like I'm finally getting over the "if I'm not in a relationship, I am a failure" thing.

sarahell, Thursday, 13 December 2018 01:32 (five years ago) link

Have you ever tried an aggressive eyeroll when someone tries to awkwardly, repetitively flirt. If it's bothering me, I don't care if they just think I am a bitch. But of course you need to do the calculus. sometimes when my spouse hugs me from behind or grabs me when I am focused on something else, i totally flinch or knock his arm away and i've never had anything traumatic happen to me but of course it's just the history of having hands on you that you don't want and being alert to defend yourself.

Being alone is better than being with someone who sucks. A lot of men are pretty lacking in being adequate partners. Having your time to be alone is freedom (this is totally take from that Jeong Kwan Chef Table episode).

Yerac, Thursday, 13 December 2018 02:13 (five years ago) link

Trayce, it's pretty much always the partner (or ex partner). It happens so much it becomes almost mundane. I expect it's the same if you're a POC and experience varying levels of racism *all the time* - it's there, it's outrageous, everyone's used to it so needs to find something new to make a Twitterstorm about

kinder, Thursday, 13 December 2018 08:50 (five years ago) link

the levels of entitlement people must just be walking around with.

kinder, Thursday, 13 December 2018 08:53 (five years ago) link

New people! *waves at gyac* *waves at Eliza D* welcome to us!

On the marriage thing, in orbit, some EU countries are doing the thing of extending Civil Partnership to Teh Straights? That might be something to look into, if your partner's country does this? I am not a fan of Marriage or even Gay Marriage (for many complicated reasons). But the whole idea of Civil Partnership being, "This means what *we* think it should mean, not what 5000 years of Patriarchy says it should mean" - might be a way to just do the thing without, you know, Doing The Thing?

I don't even want to touch on the incel thing, or the rolling maleness / masculinity thread. (Which usually means I'm going to fire off 7000 words, but not today.) But just to say... I admire women and/or non-boys who can continue wading into those threads and having the arguments and saying the things that need to be said. But there *IS* a wall of frustration. And the penalties that one must pay, as a non-boy, for pointing out "ILX males are very quick to performatively point fingers at persons outside ILX; while steadfastly refusing to address their own biases" eventually become too high.

(I have found amazing other places and other people, with whom I can discuss AFAB masculinity, and trans-ness and non-binary-ness... and it's been life-alteringly good.)

But there's a lot of online conversations I have found I have just had to mute or switch off, not to be a screaming mass of anger, all the time - with hugely deleterious effects on both my psychological health and eventually my physical health. (It's not just getting other people to take your pain seriously - sometimes it's getting *yourself* to take your own pain seriously, when others keep telling you it doesn't matter.) It's too high a price to pay, living in that state all the time. Like, there are so many cognitive *taxes* that non-cis-men have to pay, that cis-men are blissfully unaware of. On one level, psychologically, it's like, "you're allowed to mute those conversations if that's what you need to survive" but the end result is, certain voices become louder and louder, and other voices... go on mute.

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 13 December 2018 08:54 (five years ago) link

Just in case people didn't see the story, because I think various other blogs have been writing off of it as well but the Washington Post had a lead on this:

The Washington Post found that nearly half of the women who were murdered during the past decade were, like Parnell and Cisneros, killed by a current or former intimate partner. In a close analysis of five cities, about a third of the male killers were known to be a potential threat ahead of the attack.
Nevermind the rampant domestic violence issues within police officer, border patrol and ICE ranks.

Yerac, Thursday, 13 December 2018 12:47 (five years ago) link

I’m sure a lot of terrorists recently have also had a history of domestic violence, iirc.

👋🏻 at everyone - i will definitely post more here :)

Re: going to the dr, I understand the hesitancy because doctors are documenting as dismissing female problems which then turn out to be actual issues and this has happened to very dear friends of mine. I remember having a weird random ache years ago and being told by a doctor it was “nothing” - it was my lower abdomen on my right hand side. Obviously this was true because I’m still alive but I always thought about how quickly it was dismissed.

gyac, Thursday, 13 December 2018 13:08 (five years ago) link

I'm always glad to see the "no boys" thread resurface and I'm always glad to see a gyac post, so hi! welcome! welcome to Eliza D. too and welcome back Branwell. Actually I am always glad to see a post by any ILX ladies. <3 to you all and apologies if anyone didn't want to be <3ed by an idiot like myself.

I do share most of yr feelings about the incel conversations here and elsewhere, but I had some p. incel-like trains of thought in my early 20s (so probably diarised on ILX somewhere, sigh), feeling like an outsider on the edge of male-dominated scenes and blaming my looks instead of examining my own failings wrt social interaction (or what I could do about my looks, which tbh I still resent the obligation to do), and I got into a spiral of semi-enjoying feeling bad and hated for things I thought were out of my control and blaming everyone else and taking any hints to change as confirmation that everyone was out to get me. anyway, there were a couple of good posts about that kind of thinking which I look forward to unpacking and rearranging into my worldview at my leisure

as an only child of relatively openminded-ish parents who found it far more important that I could fake "I am clever and like science" chat than performative femininity I was prob just socialised in a male privilege kinda way without even being male. unfortunately the clever/science part was also v fake and performative, and now I am secretly also dumb as rocks, having been brought up to believe that being smart is the most important thing without ever needing to learn how. but oh well.

uhh nobody wanted to read that much about me, sorry, and I'm sure you don't want to rehash any of that conversation here, so please do carry on

a passing spacecadet, Thursday, 13 December 2018 13:17 (five years ago) link

aps I was wondering where you were! I like reading your posts. now where's emil.y?

kinder, Thursday, 13 December 2018 13:30 (five years ago) link

I think I understand you in some ways, a passing spacecadet. I always had sort of “male interests” as a child and to varying degrees am not really into performative femininity for the most part! This used to be a pain when I was younger because I felt I was different from my peers. Sad to say I did have a brief not like the other girls phase, but quickly got the fuck over myself. Most of my friends are female now and most of my closest friends have been too.

Also, you’re not dumb at all, I’ve read your posts and you always come across as very on it!

gyac, Thursday, 13 December 2018 13:31 (five years ago) link

btw justin3 that situation with your friends and potentially babby is a total recipe for disaster imo!!

kinder, Thursday, 13 December 2018 13:34 (five years ago) link

Replying to three different things at once time!

1. Sad to say I did have a brief not like the other girls phase, but quickly got the fuck over myself.

oh, I totally had an "I don't like/am not like ~girly girls~" phase, which, what did I even mean by that? There wasn't anyone in my class at school or among my acquaintances at any other point in my life who remotely fitted the description, even among the people I didn't particularly get along with, but I still felt the need to go "that straw woman there, I am not one, please!"

2. kinder otm, that situation sounds like it has many possibilities for becoming super awkward for anyone who isn't 100% immune to emotions/attachment/sleeplessness/hormones/suddenly having a whole lot of baby stuff going on all over the house. for the record, my personal opinion is that no humans ever have been immune to that combo. but, good luck to them

3. my mother has chronic health problems which were not properly diagnosed until her 40s because up until that point doctors liked to say things like "so your stomach hurts a lot, well, that's what you should expect when you're a woman". I'd hoped we'd got past that now but a friend of a friend nearly died this summer because of a giant ovarian cyst, the symptoms of which had been totally dismissed, so I guess there is still some way to go, alas.

though, one of the GPs at my surgery has told both me and the bf that (separate) things are "just one of those things" in a very "can't be bothered to look" kind of way, so some people are just like that to both sexes, and they shouldn't become GPs imo, but they do

a passing spacecadet, Thursday, 13 December 2018 14:03 (five years ago) link

...some of them do. Some (most?) GPs are good obv.

But it can be a bit random and there's the maddening feeling you might need to keep an .xls of what GPs are available at your surgery and what subjects they have seemed particularly receptive or unreceptive to enquiries about, so you don't ask the perma-bored dude GP about your ovary pains, and you don't ask the slightly sniffy about mental health GP about brainfeelings, and you don't ask the GP who is mostly v nice and good but a bit hippyish about any skin conditions you don't want to be told a natural home remedy for, etc.

a passing spacecadet, Thursday, 13 December 2018 14:09 (five years ago) link

I just looked up on the internet why men become gynos thinking it would soothe my fears and nope. I've had a 2 male gynos for maybe 10 years combined and now I am like "what was I thinking?" They were totally fine but eh, that choice is really suspect.

As I get older I am more assertive about requesting things from doctors. I know when I go that I need something serious and even if they dismiss me that they can't hear anything in my lungs (even though I know I have asthma) or that I don't seem that sick (because I walk in with makeup and dressed?) I ask that they run blood tests or take xrays of wherever. And there is always something they find after. Like bitch, I am paying for this so just do the test.

Yerac, Thursday, 13 December 2018 14:13 (five years ago) link

Literally the last three times I had some kind of bronchial infection (from traveling too much), I finally had to give in and go to the doctor and each time I was dismissed as seeming fine. I had to actively request a blood test so that they could confirm I had an infection and I could get drugs.

Yerac, Thursday, 13 December 2018 14:17 (five years ago) link

Hi spacecadet! <3 back to you.

I keep typing stuff out and deleting it, but yes.

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 13 December 2018 14:51 (five years ago) link

Nevermind the rampant domestic violence issues within police officer, border patrol and ICE ranks.

I keep thinking about one of your previous posts about how your background checks found domestic violence incidents for every person applying to ICE? DHS?

tokyo rosemary, Thursday, 13 December 2018 16:14 (five years ago) link

Hi Bran and aps!! Missed your faces!

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 13 December 2018 16:56 (five years ago) link

it's like the no boys thread holiday gathering, where everyone comes together to celebrate!

sarahell, Thursday, 13 December 2018 17:30 (five years ago) link

xpost, the background checks you also always had to speak to the ex spouse (if there was one). Those positions (border patrol ICE) I remember dreading if there was an ex-spouse or partner where they had a child together. They never wanted to talk to me or they didn't want to meet in person, and they tried to keep everything as short as possible. This was not the case in any other single type of position.

Yerac, Thursday, 13 December 2018 17:31 (five years ago) link

as an only child of relatively openminded-ish parents who found it far more important that I could fake "I am clever and like science" chat than performative femininity I was prob just socialised in a male privilege kinda way without even being male.

I am also an only child, and yeah, was definitely socialized as "not strictly feminine" -- because I served as both daughter and son to my parents. I was talking to a friend who also had this experience, and her family was fairly traditional in terms of gender stuff, but because she was the only child, she got more of the "male training" than if she'd had a brother. For me, also my dad did way more of the babysitting/was around more when I was growing up, so I definitely assimilated more male traits and interests as a kid than if my mom was home more and my dad was a workaholic (i.e. typical gender roles). Actually I was kinda thinking about this in terms of voice - like speaking voice - and whether the parent you spend the most time with affects how you speak, in terms of tonal range?

sarahell, Thursday, 13 December 2018 17:37 (five years ago) link

http://msmagazine.com/blog/2015/10/26/police-wife-the-secret-epidemic-of-police-domestic-violence/

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/09/police-officers-who-hit-their-wives-or-girlfriends/380329/

I have said this before about gun control, but even though domestic violence is a greater predictor of future escalated violence than any other sign, we are unlikely to get gun control focused around domestic violence because of high rates in police and military families.

— Kristen Hanley Cardozo (@KHandozo) December 9, 2018

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 13 December 2018 20:34 (five years ago) link

Hey APS, that’s what bugs me about incel talk - as if women don’t experience the same kinds of alienation and isolation. But as yerac mentioned earlier, we’re conditioned to act as if we couldn’t possibly feel that way, and to put others’ emotional welfare before our own.

Also: I feel like this often deemed a controversial opinion but I think male gynos are all creeps.

just1n3, Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:40 (five years ago) link

*shrugs* I don't see any reason not to run with that as a basic concept tbh.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:51 (five years ago) link

I’ve had both male and female gynos and prefer women but don’t really mind the men. My mom, on the other hand, thought the idea of having a female gyno was really strange but I think that must have been because she was older and for much of her life most doctors were male full stop.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:51 (five years ago) link

But I remember telling her my first gyno was a woman and she was horrified:

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:54 (five years ago) link

I feel like I was told that female gynocologists were less gentle. Which is making me laugh right now.

Yerac, Thursday, 13 December 2018 21:56 (five years ago) link

I went to a gynaecologist and I was really nervous about it til she told me to “open my flaps” which made me laugh. I think I’d take that a bit differently from a man though.

gyac, Thursday, 13 December 2018 22:01 (five years ago) link

On the gyno topic, I went off my implanon the other week after the 3 year mark. Ughhhh first period in 3 years and I already hate it and had a HUGE fight with my patner this morning and i feel like shit.

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Thursday, 13 December 2018 22:13 (five years ago) link

Seeing as people are doing medical talk itt, I just started my second heavy period in a month and I KNOW it is a thyroid thing but none of my doctors have ever taken me seriously about this stuff. I also have severely debilitating anxiety around doctors and making GP appointments is so hard these days, so I think I'm probably going to deteriorate slowly and painfully until I finally get round to dying. Oh well.

emil.y, Friday, 14 December 2018 01:32 (five years ago) link

With you on GPs, I'm hard pressed to find any who give a shit anymore. :(

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Friday, 14 December 2018 02:12 (five years ago) link

I think you have to persevere and maybe it's not the right thing to do, but google and google until you think you have done enough research to be knowledgeable and make doctors take you seriously. You are ultimately paying their salary.

Yerac, Friday, 14 December 2018 02:25 (five years ago) link

I know enough smart nurses who hate doctors because of their self serving egos that I don't feel bad anymore about demanding care when I know I need it.

Yerac, Friday, 14 December 2018 02:26 (five years ago) link

Again and again, it has to be repeated: the term "incel" was literally invented by a woman.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/25/woman-who-invented-incel-movement-interview-toronto-attack

It was a term meant to describe the experiences of women who didn't or couldn't meet gendered expectations, Teh Fats, and the "only gay / lesbian in the village" experience. The fact that this term has been co-opted as a byword for male sexual entitlement tells you everything you need to know about whose problems are considered *real*, or not.

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Friday, 14 December 2018 08:23 (five years ago) link

Branwell's gonna be threadkiller here, but I guess that's my job.

I knew I shouldn't have looked in the masculinity thread given the things being said here, but I did, and...

It's so frustrating, seeing dudes saying things like, "oh, if only we had some trans-masc voices in here", given the violent history of ILX's treatment of the few trans-masc ppl that have been out, here. And yet, a cis dude, who is all "Well, I've been hanging out with a lot of 'F to M's and this is what they've said..." is viewed as an authoritative expert voice on transmasculinity.

The irony of this position, when I was literally banned from the trans thread. (It's astonishing, how, when one dude-with-a-history was using the place to carry on; and multiple people asked him to stop - mods were all 'we don't want to be hasty' and 'free speech' and he was never banned from it, and I literally had to leave a space I asked to be created - but the moment I, an NB Trans, steps 3mm from the Acceptable Public Discourse About The Trans, the banhammer came down so fast my head was spinning.)

So ILX only ever gets to see the AFAB trans experience, as filtered through the eyes of cis dudes. And it's very notable that the cis dudes love to share the 'M to F' voices that are all "masculinity is more complicated than we had expected" and "here are some awful ways that being a racialised man is different from being a racialised woman" and "male privilege is... kinda weird and not always cut and dried." Cis dudes *love* sharing those pieces, in a way they do not ever seem to share the multiple transmasc voices saying things like, "holy shit, here are all the ways in which my life got magically easier and less of a hassle, in areas which I didn't even know *existed* when I was still being treated as a woman, the minute I started to really pass." Cis men only ever seem interested in trans issues when trans issues can be used as a tool to contradict male privilege in some way.

But I also know that if I go on that thread, there are a number of men who will start this high-pitched shrieking like...

https://cdn2-www.comingsoon.net/assets/uploads/2017/07/remakes-watching-slide-890Z-videoSixteenByNineJumbo1600.jpg

...at me, in a way that they do not do it at cis dudes who are sharing their cis-filtered view of The Transmasc Narrative. And if I react in any way, it will be because "Branwell is just an angry person". Not because of their misogyny, not because of their transphobia.

Been thinking about this thing discussed above, about "being good at male-coded interests" as a way of almost-accessing male privilege. As someone living in the boundary land, it just doesn't work that way. "Being good at male-coded interests" is still something which leaves you eternally dependent on male approval, and you will only ever be "pretty good... for a girl." The actual test of male privilege, when you're trying to pass as male - is how much male-coded *behaviour* will be tolerated. How much bluntness, how much directness, how much taking-up-space, how much "not having to check in with and be aware of and waltz around the feelings of everyone else in the room". How much of (any kind of) privilege is not the stuff you do have to take into account - but the stuff you *don't*, and the stuff that it's never occurred to you before, that you should even *need* to.

Like, trans men suddenly start to *notice* the day that women start shying away from them on dark streets (in a way that cis men do not - unless they've been educated by a feminist that this is A Thing) because it's taken for granted, that when you're not viewed-as-male, you *have* be aware of people around you.

On that note, I know Kinder has seen this on twitter, but it's pretty relevant to this discussion of the utter bedrock assumptions about violence towards women and masculinity...

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/dec/13/what-would-a-city-that-is-safe-for-women-look-like

It's easier for the woman who wrote this, to imagine RAZING ENTIRE CITIES AND REBUILDING THEM FROM SCRATCH in order to protect women - and then dismissing the idea as infeasible - than it is to imagine a world where male violence isn't considered as totally normal as the weather, or a world where cis men could be educated not to attack or harass people who aren't men.

I mean, this is the absolute failure of vision that I was railing about - when I got banned from the Trans thread.

Someone was saying to me, that fighting "T3r£s" and combating transphobia in Feminism was The Single Most Important Issue in the struggle, because 'some feminists do not allow trans women in women's shelters or rape crisis centres.' Like, the backwards way this is framed, and whose transphobia it ignores and treats as normal... HELLO! why do women even *need* separate shelters or rape crisis centres? The transphobia of women who say 'we really need to screen who uses these spaces...' is named and addressed and problematised - but the transphobia and transmisogyny and common-or-garden misogyny of the men who PUT WOMEN - BOTH CIS AND TRANS AND EVERYONE INBETWEEN - in *need* of these services? That doesn't even require a *mention*. Transphobia has become defined, a priori, as a Women's Problem, in the same way that Rape is classed as a Women's Problem, and that Domestic Violence is classed as a Women's Problem.

(And of course, the best way for cis men to combat transphobia is... to shout at AFABs that they're not being feminist enough. The idea of actually talking to other cis men about male violence, including transphobia...? Scary. Complicated. Can't we get some AFABs in to manage our feelings about that.)

Sorry, I'm probably still too affronted and just genuinely offended by that incident to be posting on ILX. The best person on this is Sara Ahmed, and she talks about those *SNAP* moments. Where people hear and see the snap and act like the snap itself is the problem, but pretend as if the stress and the pressure that leads to the *SNAP* has nothing to do with the snap.

Anyway, apologies for the thread-killing. Blowing off steam, no response required. I'm leaving for Berlin tomorrow, so I won't be around, so I'll just say happy holidays to everyone now. Tschüss!

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Friday, 14 December 2018 14:20 (five years ago) link

I mean, being lectured on the best ways to address transphobia, by people who literally started multiple threads, board-lawyering for their RIGHT to deadname me, is... well, it's something, innit.

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Friday, 14 December 2018 14:23 (five years ago) link

ty for the welcomes, for anyone not aware already I used to be ILXor Phil D. before I began transitioning. I probably will be doing a lot of lurking rather than posting because I'm still kind of . . . *learning* womanhood? I am a very femme-presenting trans woman, and it's an entirely different way of getting along in the world than the previous 48 years have been. So I'm just kind of going day to day. But I learn from reading this threads and all of your experiences.

Plinka Trinka Banga Tink (Eliza D.), Friday, 14 December 2018 15:21 (five years ago) link

welcome eliza!! i don't know enough about the specific situations mentioned in branwell's post above to even fully understand what is going on but i wish everyone the best.

as for learning femininity, i wouldn't try too hard to learn. i sure didn't :) most of the stuff i was supposed to do was way out of character. i remember one time a friend told me that if i wanted boys to like me, i had to be more coy (her word) and even thought i was 16 at the time i was like naaaaaah.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 14 December 2018 15:25 (five years ago) link

well i don't wish EVERYONE the best, but hopefully you know what i mean.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 14 December 2018 15:26 (five years ago) link

Hi Bran, rest assured I see your post and I hear you. I'm still taking it in, a bit, and also I don't know about most of that history. But thanks for

Like, the backwards way this is framed, and whose transphobia it ignores and treats as normal... HELLO! why do women even *need* separate shelters or rape crisis centres? The transphobia of women who say 'we really need to screen who uses these spaces...' is named and addressed and problematised - but the transphobia and transmisogyny and common-or-garden misogyny of the men who PUT WOMEN - BOTH CIS AND TRANS AND EVERYONE INBETWEEN - in *need* of these services? That doesn't even require a *mention*. Transphobia has become defined, a priori, as a Women's Problem, in the same way that Rape is classed as a Women's Problem, and that Domestic Violence is classed as a Women's Problem.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Friday, 14 December 2018 15:29 (five years ago) link

xp I wish a lot of people the wurst tbrr but no one on this thread. :D

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Friday, 14 December 2018 15:30 (five years ago) link

I definitely get a lot of what Branwell's discussing above -- since I changed my Twitter account and started following different people, I've had a lot of new exposure to LGBTQIA+ and trans politics, and there's a LOT going on there. And their (apologies, Branwell, I can't remember your pronouns) experience in the UK is a lot different than what's going on here, too -- I follow and chat with a lot of UK trans activists (a term I hate) and I don't envy them what's going on these days. And an awful lot of them *do* center fighting TERFs as battle #1 rather than violent, misogynist men. (Although seeing feminists align with evangelicals to scapegoat trans people makes me want to turn into the She-Hulk.)

As far as learning womanhood goes, the good thing (?maybe) is that I've always exhibited behaviors socially that coded as a little more "feminine." Anything "masculine" was very, very performative, an attempt to butch it up and keep myself in the closet. Heck, I denied myself the fun of Halloween for like two and a half decades for fear of accidentally outing myself! I've certainly already been made to feel uncomfortable by men invading my personal space; I've never liked people walking too closely, etc., but it takes on a whole different character now. And I experienced incredible discomfort when I had to go to a music store recently to buy guitar strings. For the first time ever it felt like a male space that I was invading rather than somewhere I belonged, even though I've been shopping there for 8 years. (Getting deadnamed didn't help, either.)

Plinka Trinka Banga Tink (Eliza D.), Friday, 14 December 2018 15:37 (five years ago) link

Heck, I denied myself the fun of Halloween for like two and a half decades for fear of accidentally outing myself!
:( that's a tragedy. 25 years is a very long time to long for something.

i also recognize this Transphobia has become defined, a priori, as a Women's Problem, in the same way that Rape is classed as a Women's Problem, and that Domestic Violence is classed as a Women's Problem. as a major problem. infighting among women has always made me really sad because like eliza said, violent misogyny is everywhere and is killing us. idk i am almost never on the frontlines of anything involving fighting words because of my intense fear of being attacked. i think this makes me shrink when i probably shouldn't but hey i am getting help and learning.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 14 December 2018 15:48 (five years ago) link

I am so bad with acronyms (I just learned what tl:dr was last year) and I can't find tbrr or maybe that was a typo by inorbit. But in any case I did look up all terms in branwell's post just to make sure I read it clearly. I don't know about that incident that happened. But fuck em. In the last couple of years a lot of passive "good" men have been lamenting that no one told them it was this bad for everyone else who wasn't just like them. And when we do tell men now, over and over, they still choose to focus on, like, problematic corporate event planning at strip clubs when we are obviously talking about something else.

Yerac, Friday, 14 December 2018 15:51 (five years ago) link

"to be really real" is possibly a noize borad or roxy concoction.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Friday, 14 December 2018 15:53 (five years ago) link

oh man do not get me started on the dividing properties of acronyms and jargon. the "noise era" of ilx exemplified this in that it showed insider/outsider status based on the willingness and ability to post with acronyms, ALL CAPS, discern jokes from not-jokes, and generally conform to the "posting style" exhibited on that sub-board. for a while i thought it would make an amazing corpus for linguistic study but i no longer care about that, at least not for now.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 14 December 2018 16:11 (five years ago) link

The woman who died in Ireland because she was refused an abortion--the law is changing now but only over her dead body (and those of all the other girls and women who haven't had access to reproductive rights).

South Brooklyn man viciously threatened to shoot & kill a female US Senator after seeing a video online of her criticizing Trump for his stance on reproductive rights. Man has "Keep Christ in Christmas" sign on his front lawn.

Residential center for "troubled" young women closed in Upstate NY after 19 people were arrested for sex-trafficking girls as young as 13 who were there because they were previously assaulted & victimized.

Eliza Dushku was (apparently?!) fired off a show for objecting to rape jokes and harassment.

It's a brutal day for women in the news.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Friday, 14 December 2018 16:19 (five years ago) link

The Eliza Dushku news on top of the fact that when #metoo first popped she said she was harassed as a teen by the stunt coordinator on "True Lies" . . . she has been very poorly done by in Hollywood.

Plinka Trinka Banga Tink (Eliza D.), Friday, 14 December 2018 16:32 (five years ago) link

xp Savita’s case made me SO ANGRY and when we won the referendum I read all the notes on the mural and cried. I posted on the thread at the time, but there was a Facebook page called In Her Shoes - Women of the 8th that was heartbreaking.

One of the things that was really surprising and just heartening, though, was the exit poll report that women’s stories were the defining factor in people choosing to vote the way they did. That meant a lot to me, that people listened to ordinary women and changed the law for them.

I am thinking about the campaign all over again and thinking about the bravery of women coming out to tell their stories. It’s such a stigma in Ireland and suddenly there were women speaking up everywhere - I was so proud of them. I know there is a debate elsewhere which is valid about women’s pain being “necessary” for people to think of them as deserving of protection or understanding - but these women were defiant and challenging the order that oppressed us all. They used their pain to force people to confront the reality of the situation, and we are all grateful to them.

I think Saoirse and the shocked gasps at Ronan Mullen's response to her story is a standout moment of this campaign #pkshow pic.twitter.com/ZRuohwIeOl

— Naomi O'Leary (@NaomiOhReally) May 24, 2018

gyac, Friday, 14 December 2018 17:04 (five years ago) link

Yeah I remember reading about the "Return to vote YES" campaign and being amazed and heart-ful!!

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Friday, 14 December 2018 17:20 (five years ago) link

Eliza - yeah, I know you used to go by a different name. That's *why* I wanted to make sure you definitely knew you were welcome here? It can be a bit of an imposing thread to jump into sometimes. You got it right, I'm 'they/them'. :)

Sorry I'm so jargon-y and acronym-y! I forget, sometimes. But everyone has different contexts and different milieus and different idea of what common currency. Like, in one of my trans groups, we were throwing all the acronyms around, QUILTBAG this, and TWEF that, and GRA etc. and the conversation was going really thick and fast, until someone leaned forwards and said "what's a meme?" and we all laughed uproariously thinking this was a joke, but then they repeated, "No, for real, pals, - what *IS* a meme?"

So...

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Friday, 14 December 2018 17:26 (five years ago) link

It's fine. I like to learn new things. Although, I have gotten MSM: Mainstream Media confused with Man Seeking Man and MCM: Mid Century Modern confused with Man Crush Monday when I was looking up acronyms trying to find the right definition.

Yerac, Friday, 14 December 2018 17:32 (five years ago) link

I removed myself from the trans discussions (welcome, Eliza, btw!) on other threads partly because of what happened with Branwell, partly because of TERF getting flung around everywhere in a massively self-congratulatory way in light of the above and partly due to another poster who I've slightly side-eyed in the past continuing to be sneering (previously he'd 'splained, incorrectly, something I have fairly in-depth knowledge of and angrily refused to entertain the idea that someone else might know more than him - only a minor thing but enough for me to dismiss anything he's piped up with).

As Branwell knows I'm trying to learn more about gender and feminism. I feel I constantly have to remind myself that 'female' and 'feminine' are two separate things often conflated and one is neither necessary nor sufficient to be the other. (This is in no way aimed at you, Eliza.)

The more I read about gender the less I feel I identify as 'cis' based on others' definitions; but there are SO MANY THINGS that seemingly can't be defined nicely for me and I appreciate that not feeling much about gender (or, actually, identity) could purely arise from the privilege of not feeling any jarring with mine.

The Irish referendum was amazing; I honestly had no idea beforehand how it would go.

kinder, Friday, 14 December 2018 19:59 (five years ago) link

excuse nonsensical grammar/sentences; it's been a long day

kinder, Friday, 14 December 2018 20:00 (five years ago) link

no offense taken at all, kinder -- I'm always trying to consider the differences for myself! like the mere fact of my dysphoria, my lack of connection to/disgust with my body tells me I'm female. I'm feminine because I prefer presenting that way. I could easily be more to the nb end of things as well.

Plinka Trinka Banga Tink (Eliza D.), Friday, 14 December 2018 22:43 (five years ago) link

Seeing as people are doing medical talk itt, I just started my second heavy period in a month and I KNOW it is a thyroid thing but none of my doctors have ever taken me seriously about this stuff.

Oh lord gyno stuff. I ought to be grateful that my doctors took me seriously earlier this year when I talked to them about my heavy periods. But I know that I benefit from 1) being middle-class and white and 2) knowing some of the medical jargon. I underwent endometrial ablation earlier this year. The problem is that my endometrium seems to have grown back like a WEED. Right now I am having a period almost as heavy as before the procedure back in August.

In the meantime, for what it's worth, I'm pleased to see in this thread ILXorz whom I've known in the past.

I Feel Bad About My Butt (j.lu), Saturday, 15 December 2018 04:02 (five years ago) link

One of these days I'll let the issue go (or not, who knows), but something I have stuck in my craw is that progressive lefty dudes of ilx would go apeshit if a white person insisted "I'm not racist! I have black friends!" because obviously anyone who grew up with institutional racism has it backed into their bones; denying this is not OK. But apparently it is fine to say "I'm not sexist! I get along great with my women colleagues!" Perhaps some of these dudes are confusing sexism with misogyny; I honestly haven't felt there is much of the latter on ilx (rare trolling excepted), but "I'm not sexist! I'm a feminist." Brother, please.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Saturday, 15 December 2018 15:29 (five years ago) link

on that note, i was hanging out with a male friend last night and after hearing about a pretty run-of-the-mill sexist experience i had with a beloved* bartender, admitted to me how blind he (and people he talks to) can be wrt gender issues and misogyny that is so woven into the fabric that he doesn't see it. i was like yeah, we see it. like a magic thread that runs through everything.

*so beloved that there was an entire night dedicated to lauding him, I did not attend

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Saturday, 15 December 2018 15:38 (five years ago) link

"I don't trust myself to have a drink with a woman friend because I might fall for her" I mean WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK how are you different from Mike Pence on this? So sexist on so many levels.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Saturday, 15 December 2018 15:41 (five years ago) link

the say something nice about another ilxor thread is making me smile today. they are falling all over themselves congratulating themselves for being so decent.

Yerac, Saturday, 15 December 2018 15:47 (five years ago) link

I'd say would should organize a women's ilx strike but the results would be far too depressing.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Saturday, 15 December 2018 15:49 (five years ago) link

Bah, I don't think they would care or notice and I kind of don't care if they don't like an internet tone that makes them feel jumbly inside. Maybe in 3-5-10 years (or never) they will realize how far behind they were about things.

Yerac, Saturday, 15 December 2018 15:53 (five years ago) link

I mean, I will say it here, but it feels pretty great to be so sure about things sometimes. And this is seriously my huge side-eye about all of this:

One of these days I'll let the issue go (or not, who knows), but something I have stuck in my craw is that progressive lefty dudes of ilx would go apeshit if a white person insisted "I'm not racist! I have black friends!" because obviously anyone who grew up with institutional racism has it backed into their bones; denying this is not OK. But apparently it is fine to say "I'm not sexist! I get along great with my women colleagues!" Perhaps some of these dudes are confusing sexism with misogyny; I honestly haven't felt there is much of the latter on ilx (rare trolling excepted), but "I'm not sexist! I'm a feminist." Brother, please.
You all are fooling no one.

Yerac, Saturday, 15 December 2018 15:59 (five years ago) link

they are falling all over themselves congratulating themselves for being so decent.

Was that what was going on there? I saw a lot of identifying with the shit-stirring post made by what I always assumed was a sock account, and all that made me think was “yeah, guess I’ll just stick to this thread if I ever want to talk about sexism again lol”.

gyac, Saturday, 15 December 2018 16:36 (five years ago) link

i was wondering about that too
i don't begrudge the identification but it sends my alarm mode into overdrive -- who wrote it, why, etc.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Saturday, 15 December 2018 19:40 (five years ago) link

which one was the shit stirring post/the sock account? I always think of that joke (can't remember if I have the right phrasing)
Q: How can you tell when a man has a cold and doesn't feel well?
A: Oh trust me, he'll let you know.

Yerac, Saturday, 15 December 2018 20:51 (five years ago) link

I finally was able to listen to the Saorsi clip (was always in public areas without headphones). Was Ronan Mullen totally dismissive of her after?

Yerac, Saturday, 15 December 2018 20:55 (five years ago) link

He said that thing about “regardless of anything you have ever done” and got the hostile crowd reaction, but she got a LOT of public support. Even Russell Crowe quote tweeted her in support.

gyac, Saturday, 15 December 2018 23:17 (five years ago) link

I really debated bringing this up, because it *is* ancient history for most of ILX; but for me it is still very raw.

LL mentioned the off-putting clubbishness of the Noize Borad. Well, the thing is, the guy who started that noize dude thing - he harassed me steadily for a period of YEARS, starting pretty low-key handwave-away-able, but escalating to a point where even other noize dudes started noticing that he had crossed a line. Pretty much *all* of the mods, at the start, took the attitude that this was flirty, banter type thing that was welcomed or enjoyed by me, or that I was even somehow complicit in - rather than this being an overwhelming and awful thing that I wanted to *stop* (but had no idea how to make it stop without him continually escalating). Even once it was generally realised that his attention was not welcome, half the mods took the attitude that I simply deserved it, because I was "annoying". The few that saw it as something I was completely upset by, told me things like... well, he's probably ~on the spectrum~ and maybe he has ADHD, so he clearly has impulse control issues, and you really have to work harder on ignoring him. The idea that *I* might be autistic, diagnosed, with a suspected side order of ADD - the idea that *I* might have serious impulse control issues upon being provoked? That was never even considered. It was my job to manage him, whether I was capable of it or not. Not his job to just... stop harassing. It was always presented that the problem was *me*, that I was doing something wrong to attract it; that I was *causing* the problem by asking for it to be dealt with. My reactions, psychological fallout from that harassment, trauma, meltdowns - became more evidence that *I* was the problem. I became viewed as a Problem Poster. Not the guy harassing me, not the people egging him on, and not the people refusing to do anything about him.

I am not the only female-presenting person who has had serious harassment (or worse) issues with members of ILX. Some of those guys were eventually banned when their behaviour escalated from the women to, say... *mods*. Some of those guys are still here, some of those guys have near-mythical status, they still hold jobs with positions of power. Most of the women, on the other hand...

(To the point where... a few years ago, when someone alluded to the oft-mentioned but never explained "chucking a pint of beer at a funeral" incident - people just *assumed* that I was the perpetrator, when the truth was, ILX had a serial harasser, and after comparing notes with other ILX women on what he'd done to them, and what I'd ignored him doing to me - that I was one of his many *targets*, one of the victims of that incident. Yet, because ILX subscribes to the "to name a problem is to *become* the problem" - of course, I must have been the problem in that situation.)

So when I see long-term ILX dudes posting away on #MeToo threads about how they're ~so different~ and congratulating themselves for their attitudes towards women (or even pulling the whole... why don't more women come forward, why didn't anyone tell us...) you will excuse me if my attitudes are less than laudatory. They saw, they knew, they did... NOTHING. Any guy who likes to congratulate himself on how much "one of the good guys" he is, is generally congratulating himself on his obliviousness and blindness to the stuff going on around him. Spare me.

History lesson over. Have a good week. I'm off to enjoy all the Friedhofer und Altbauten in Berlin.

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Sunday, 16 December 2018 08:05 (five years ago) link

wow. first, thank you for writing that all out. i appreciate the clarity :)

this clause really stands out for me because "unwanted attention" and other people's inability to recognize and call it out has been on my mind for decades. my whole life?
Even once it was generally realised that his attention was not welcome,

I know that harassment will continue but what if we started to recognize that ---> unwanted attention <--- is not the fault of the person who receives it? imagine a world where unwanted attention stops before it turns into everything else we think of as "women's issues" ;_;

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Sunday, 16 December 2018 16:04 (five years ago) link

Thx for the clarification as well, although I am trying to keep from finding old posts to fill in a lot of gaps (like, a lot).

In other non-men news because they take up way too much of our time that we don't have for them, I am finally starting a new quilting project after 3 years of procrastinating on what I want to do. I might do a colorway inspired by the new season of Mrs Maisel.

Yerac, Sunday, 16 December 2018 18:18 (five years ago) link

TW: descriptions of violence
Femicide in UK: 76% of women killed by men in 2017 knew their killer

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/dec/18/femicide-in-uk-76-of-women-killed-by-men-in-2017-knew-their-killer?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

kinder, Tuesday, 18 December 2018 06:07 (five years ago) link

Sorry, I really feel like I've sent the thread on a massive downer.

Like, I'm trying to say, "these systems that exist to protect some people, at the expense of other people... they exist everywhere, even ILX" and it comes out like gossip and complaints. It's probably best not to dig up dead dogs, but let them lie. But just... ILX is not immune.

In happier, non-men news, I've moved from "never dating anyone at all because it's too hard" to "advanced level dating: going on dates in a second (or third) language". So far with hilarious and entertaining consequences. (Alas, no sexy consequences, yet.) I think, in many ways, being a foreigner is weirdly great for autistic people, or indeed queer people, trying to meet other people, because... you have an excuse not to understand local customs or social conventions, not because you're a complete weirdo who can't social right, but because you're just... foreign?

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 19 December 2018 06:30 (five years ago) link

Viel Spaß in Berlin, Branwell!

One undiagnosed aspie trait I have (I am probably not aspie, just weird) is that in IRL conversation I have a massive brain-lag where it takes me a while to get my brain-cogs moving to decode something someone says to me, and think about it, then think of an answer, and translate that into actual words, and make sure they're in the right order and I'm not going to trip over the sounds or accidentally say something weird (I always do say something weird btw), and it takes me about a week, and normally by then the conversation has moved on or the other person's left the room or just got really cross about how slow I am.

So I kind of enjoyed early German lessons, because everyone was slow at forming sentences, and I didn't feel so weird? But now we've reached the stage where other people aren't slow, and I'm weird again, oh well. It's still a hobby.

Also I only seem to post on the politics thread these days and I don't know why I post there because either nobody replies or I get sarcastic replies I can't decode and either way I feel like a weird dumb uncool centrist dad mum cat lady who doesn't know what things mean, but I guess that's most people's ILX experience on most threads regardless of gender, so all good. (Today is my last day at work before xmas so "don't care, all good" is my mood for the day)

PS I enjoyed reading allusions to some events in your big post but it is prob best if I don't go into them or their v tangential incidence on my previous ILX life...

a passing spacecadet, Wednesday, 19 December 2018 12:48 (five years ago) link

(probably just weird = I do wish there was a cheap and judgement-free place to talk through all the things my mental/developmental hypochondria obsesses on so maybe someone half-knowledgeable could say "no, of course not" or "hmm, maybe slightly" or even "hoo boy, you might be the last person alive who doesn't already know", without having to make a big scene at the GP's and then wait two years, or pay £2k for a private diagnosis or probably non-diagnosis of every separate thing that crosses my mind as the latest excuse for being probably just weird. but anyway. probably just weird.)

(also don't make me ask my parents anything about my early life, I really do not need that conversation, they are good well-meaning people but they are awkward and passive-aggressive enough about the whole depression thing, thanks.)

a passing spacecadet, Wednesday, 19 December 2018 13:01 (five years ago) link

xp I post there constantly and half my stuff gets ignored, you should still post!

health anxiety is a symptom of OCD, have you considered that? Long before I was diagnosed with OCD I went through a few months where I was constantly in the doctors with minor complaints that evaporated as soon as I left. I was surprised I wasn’t diagnosed at that point in retrospect.

gyac, Wednesday, 19 December 2018 13:07 (five years ago) link

re ILX history -- I think ilx was the first message board i joined that wasn't centered on an IRL community, as in most of the people who posted knew/hung with most of the other people at some point, which I feel has a "moderating" effect on behavior. Like, if someone is being troll-y or says something "edgy" you can see them at a bar or show in the next few days and say, "Hey, dude, what did you mean by 'x'? That was a kinda fucked up thing to say!" or, more common, see a close friend of theirs and talk about it, and generally there would be some other context. Like there are more repercussions to being a dick or creep. I think at first I thought ILX was kinda like that, but quickly realized I was wrong (this was 2009).

The other thing I think about/realized was that so many ilx cis-men are significantly younger than me, and definitely during the "golden age" of ilx, a lot of them were in their 20s or barely out of college (or still in college). I've definitely seen some of these dudes mature and change behavior/attitudes that they had had at the time. Not making excuses for any egregiousness, but it's kinda ironic in the context of talking about trans issues, to sort of "deny" the possibility that a formerly creepy asshole could transition into a decent person.

sarahell, Wednesday, 19 December 2018 18:11 (five years ago) link

^^^I appreciate this point.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Wednesday, 19 December 2018 18:13 (five years ago) link

however, I don't know if we are referring to all the same people, and the above is definitely not intended to make excuses for the two specific individuals that I'm pretty sure you are talking about, Branwell.

sarahell, Wednesday, 19 December 2018 18:15 (five years ago) link

I definitely received a lot of shit in my first few years posting, and I tried for a masculine-style response ... idk ... I have to take breaks from this place on a regular basis. It helps me take it less seriously.

sarahell, Wednesday, 19 December 2018 18:17 (five years ago) link

thanks for that post sarahell
i think you are otm about the dynamics. it has never made any sense to me that people would excuse online behavior as "just the internet" when there are always real consequences for cruelty. just bc someone can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

good point about people changing too. personally i admittedly have a hard time when someone who used to be a colossal asshole starts to adopt a kinder philosophy (because they grew up, because they reproduced, because xyz) and don't openly apologize and/or acknowledge (more than one cursory time) that they were cruel to people. i do believe people can change, i just have a very hard time forgetting the cruelties.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 19 December 2018 18:25 (five years ago) link

I actually got a public apology (and a few private ones) from someone who had been a jerk to me. I don't forget the past behavior, but everything in the past year makes me strongly believe dude has changed and is seriously a better person. ... And I don't forgive easily, true to my astrological sign lol.

sarahell, Wednesday, 19 December 2018 18:30 (five years ago) link

Taurus?

gyac, Wednesday, 19 December 2018 18:36 (five years ago) link

Taurus?

gyac, Wednesday, 19 December 2018 18:36 (five years ago) link

Scorpio!

sarahell, Wednesday, 19 December 2018 18:37 (five years ago) link

That’s right ime too! I have a Taurus in my life who holds grudges foreverrrrr.

(Flighty air sign here, eventually I forget most slights...)

gyac, Wednesday, 19 December 2018 19:00 (five years ago) link

the apologizer was a Taurus lol

sarahell, Wednesday, 19 December 2018 19:16 (five years ago) link

Ugh, I need to vent because I am really stressing over the holidays.

My wife just confirmed that I won't get to see my in-laws (who are born-again Christians) because they're "not ready to meet the new me" (although they've had since May and have seen countless pictures on FB) and my wife's stepfather "is taking it pretty hard." (Her mom's words.) It's like, I'm aware of the process of family members and friends coming to terms with finding out someone is transgender, especially if it's someone close and they go through a kind of mourning period. And I understand people are going to have ~feelings~ or whatever, but what, exactly, is he "taking hard?" I didn't do anything to him, or anything that actually physically affects him, in any way whatsoever. Grow up! It should also be noted that I have never, ever, ever, ever said a word about the fact that in his pre-Christian life this man was a drug addict and spent time in prison for trafficking. Let alone told him he isn't welcome in my house.

My wife is going to go over to her mom's without me on Monday and take over some baking and some gifts, which I get, and which is the kind of person she is. But part of me really wants her to say, "Sorry, if you want me at Christmas, you take my wife, or you don't get either of us." Is that selfish?

Meanwhile, I'm choking on anxiety over going to my mom's house, because I'm afraid that my mother's boyfriend, just out of sheer laziness or forgetfulness, is going to deadname and/or misgender me all day.

Merry Christmas!

Plinka Trinka Banga Tink (Eliza D.), Wednesday, 19 December 2018 19:50 (five years ago) link

Ugh, I am so sorry. It's hard to deal with feeling like your partner isn't sticking up enough for you.

sarahell, Wednesday, 19 December 2018 20:03 (five years ago) link

In the past year, a friend of mine, who is FTM (has been male for like 20 years) recently had this horrible experience w/medical stuff and insurance related to his former gender (he's about yr age, Eliza)

sarahell, Wednesday, 19 December 2018 20:05 (five years ago) link

but back to the holidays, I think his and his wife's families also have problems like yours and your wife's -- still -- after 20 years

sarahell, Wednesday, 19 December 2018 20:06 (five years ago) link

eliza, I no longer speak to most of my family but my dad will still email my spouse which really annoys me. I have these types of "how dare you, whose side are you on" feelings when my spouse stays nice and emails pleasantries back. I had to get over myself and trust him, my relationships and thresholds for people's nonsense are not the same as his. All of this is relatively new for everyone in your life and I assume that your wife, who you likely trust more than most/all? people in the world, will continue to be your biggest supporter in front of her family, even if you are not physically present. All of these *feelings* that your in-laws have, they can take them to the altar, they have nothing to do with you as a person.

Yerac, Wednesday, 19 December 2018 20:46 (five years ago) link

That's awful to hear. And I cannot fault the level of support she's shown me throughout all of this, not at all -- a lot of other women would not have had what it takes to stay with a partner who is transitioning. I know I have it better than a lot of other trans women when it comes to that. It just stings a little.

Plinka Trinka Banga Tink (Eliza D.), Wednesday, 19 December 2018 20:46 (five years ago) link

xp

Plinka Trinka Banga Tink (Eliza D.), Wednesday, 19 December 2018 20:46 (five years ago) link

Thanks for explaining to me how the internet works, Sarahell, but, believe it or not, for many years, ILX *was* a group of people who knew each other IRL, and went to the same gigs and clubs and sorted stuff out down the pub. And then a couple of guys turned up who decided they weren't having that 'cuddlestein mountain' atmosphere, and they were more interested in treating the boards as an online version of space invaders, where other posters were merely blips to be shot down.

I know you're sincere when you say you're not *trying* to make excuses for them... but it's always telling, when someone is more interested in repeating those lines, such as "he was really young" (he was in his mid 20s) and "he hadn't yet learned that other people are actually human beings" (a lesson many children manage to grasp by the time they hit double digits) and are really invested in telling others how much that guy has changed and grown up, and how he's such a nicer, more mature dude now - than they are in understanding that these kinds of rationals are exactly what perpetuate the whole system that allows these kinds of dudes to get away with it for so long in the first place. Sorry, but I'm not really interested in any more of those kinds of conversations. The collateral damage was too high.

Spacecadet, there are online communities where people do exactly that? Stuff like Wrong Planet, and the many-faceted blogosphere for #ActuallyAutistic - they're not medical professionals, per se. But given the nature of the beast, often people who actually are/have Autism Spectrum stuff, or ADD, or OCD, know from the inside what it actually feels like, and how it translates into "this weird thing lots of us do" - in a way doctors can be completely useless, because they've only got a checklist of how it looks to doctors.

I don't feel like it's really helpful for me to be on ILX right now, so I'm going to go off and enjoy Berlin for the next few weeks. Have good holidays - or the best holidays you can - everyone.

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 19 December 2018 21:22 (five years ago) link

I feel like you are reading my post in almost the exact opposite way as it was intended. And yes, I am aware of ILX's early history, I am not going to be offended and view your post as condescending -- you were here way before me, and I respect that and your authority on such matters -- and that was why I mentioned "2009". And my post was not meant to "explain" anything to you, it was me, talking about myself, and my experience, and how I learned things, interpret them. That is one of the nice things about this thread, compared to a lot of other threads, where we can say, "I had this experience." and someone else can say, "Oh? Well, I had a somewhat similar experience, and my experience of this thing was more intensive, and isn't that fucked up on a systemic level?" and not turn it into a pissing context about expertise and almost willful misreading, because one of the things that was very common of that era of ILX is finding pieces of other people's posts, interpreting said pieces in a negative, confrontational way, and using them to attack the person. I've seen people do it to you so many times, and you rightly stood up for yourself and called them out. So, it's kinda ... frustrating ... to see this perpetuated.

sarahell, Wednesday, 19 December 2018 22:09 (five years ago) link

Branwell for someone so conscious about 1) dudes taking up more than their fair share of conversational space and 2) ‘splainin, maybe check yourself?

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Wednesday, 19 December 2018 22:14 (five years ago) link

That was an xpost

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Wednesday, 19 December 2018 22:17 (five years ago) link

Even though I've only been posting here about 10 years, I have seen people change in terms of how they treat others. And I know your experience was way way way more traumatic than mine, and I'm only posting about it because you brought it up. And in terms of the larger issue -- should we basically do the equivalent of a perma-ban on people who have been harrassing, misogynistic, bullying, etc. or is there a way that reconciliation is possible if the person apologizes, stops behaving like a shit, etc.? Like, this is one of those things that keeps coming up in various communities I'm a part of ... we've called them out, we've removed them from positions of power or situations where they could be abusive, now what?

sarahell, Wednesday, 19 December 2018 22:24 (five years ago) link

xpost eliza, for clarification, I hope that didn't come off as "get over yourself and be grateful for your wife's support." I expect that she has thought about this at length and that this will be heavily on her mind when she sees them. It still does suck though.

Yerac, Wednesday, 19 December 2018 22:51 (five years ago) link

gyac, ha, I've been trying to ignore the stereotypical OCDness of one of my recent habits: going back to check the door is locked. (I always forget to pay attention while locking it and then genuinely have no idea if it's locked rather than doing it as a ritual, but maybe that's how it usually works.)

I'll, uh, read up on that, thank you.

Eliza, sorry for the Christmas hassles, hope all goes relatively painlessly.

Branwell, thanks for the advice and enjoy Berlin.

sorry for gliding past all other posts, but - general ladies thread solidarity/Christmas survival fistbump, all the best

-- spacecadet (Aries/Taurus cusp, fanatical grudge-holder)

a passing spacecadet, Thursday, 20 December 2018 11:42 (five years ago) link

This is very good and reiterates what we have been saying. https://lithub.com/power-walking/

Yet when I have talked to straight men about what happens to me on the streets I have consistently been met with looks of blank innocence. They insist they know nothing of it. I have seen the same conversation played out extensively on social media where the men most devoted to the use of the hashtag #notallmen always claim ignorance, are “surprised,” so “surprised” they’ll go as far as to insist that what women are telling them cannot possibly be true, that invention or exaggeration on a global scale must surely be in play. Talking to a straight man about street harassment can be, as many black folk including black men have pointed out, like talking to some white people about the daily indignities of racism.

As I write this I wonder about all those guys, of every class and color, who have interrupted my thoughts in order to remind me of my place. For whom it was fun to try to unnerve or to humiliate me. To them I say, Just wait. It’s coming. Too late for me. Too late for you to learn much except a mote of what it might be like to be treated as if you don’t matter. But it’s coming.

I’d like to say I wish I were a better person than to feel that way.

I wish I could. But I can’t.

Yerac, Saturday, 22 December 2018 15:34 (five years ago) link

blah ignore the bold text , insert quotes.

Yerac, Saturday, 22 December 2018 15:39 (five years ago) link

a mote indeed. my embarrassing selfish want is a mountain of apologies, real ones. i know full well i am not going to get them but that doesn't stop me from righteously wanting them.

i -- an avoider of internet argument -- hopped into this fb conversation yesterday when a guy i knew socially 15+ years ago asked "do you believe in the patriarchy and/or white male privilege" and then asked his respondents to explain why. needless to say, it devolved fairly quickly into him writing paragraoh upon paragraph of big-word-dropping clueless righteous hair splitting and eventually he managed to add a paragraph conclusion that threw a barb at his ex wife. i kept my responses short and i think my last one was "we all suffer under oppressive systems." i mean...i had no idea this guy was going to open his head and show us all of his brain worms at once.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Saturday, 22 December 2018 17:07 (five years ago) link

one month passes...

Idk if this is appropriate for this thread so please tell me to fuck off or whatever, but it’s fashion related and I want your opinions!

I’m getting married later this year, and I know pretty much what I want to do in terms of hair and makeup. It’s a very small wedding and because of how it was originally planned I never intended to wear w wedding dress and still don’t, really. Tbh I never really thought about my wedding and now that it’s actually happening...I still don’t really regret it, ha.

I’m not sure I want to wear white, but I’d like to wear something light coloured, thinking either a dress or separates could be nice.

Anyway please tell me, what did you wear for your wedding day?

gyac, Tuesday, 5 February 2019 23:23 (five years ago) link

I bought sth at the last minute and in a sale. Yes, my wedding was a disaster. Lol. Hey, it could only get better after said debacle. Haha

nathom, Tuesday, 5 February 2019 23:30 (five years ago) link

i wore a heavy long-sleeved satin cream-colored dress with decorative beading that was given to me by a friend after high school. it was her great-aunt's dress and no one else wanted it, so it sat under my bed until i had an occasion to wear it, which was my wedding. I spent no money on it aside from the amount I spent to get the beads repaired.

congrats! wear whatever makes you feel good!!

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 5 February 2019 23:31 (five years ago) link

I got one of those wrap/tie dresses (it’s like a big piece of fabric with two 12 ft long pieces attached to it so you can wear it/wrap all kinds of ways) but it didn’t look very good. I was kinda like you, I’d never really thought about wedding stuff before so I didn’t have any ideas for what I wanted.

If I was doing it over, I think I’d look for a pretty cocktail dress that made me feel good.

Have a look at ModCloth- I know they do some really nice and affordable wedding dresses.

just1n3, Tuesday, 5 February 2019 23:43 (five years ago) link

Totally agree with la lechera, wear what makes you feel good. I wore a dark green satin ball gown I got from an inexpensive prom dress site, dyed my hair flaming auburn, it was fantastic.

Jaq, Tuesday, 5 February 2019 23:46 (five years ago) link

I had an idea of an emerald green dress that I wanted made but I was too lazy to deal with it. I ended up with a black and white knee length dress I got off the internet and an aviator, fleecey collar leather jacket (I've mentioned before I pretty much got married so I would have a reason to buy this jacket I was obsessed with). For the small dinner and ktown karaoke the day after I got a dark green flapper beaded dress that weighed a ton.

Yerac, Tuesday, 5 February 2019 23:55 (five years ago) link

and congrats!

Yerac, Tuesday, 5 February 2019 23:57 (five years ago) link

Congrats! Married twice: first time (courthouse, just us and the judge) in an ivory dress made from a regular dress pattern I picked out, knee length V neck with narrow ruffle at neck and 3/4 sleeves. Not a wedding-dress, but kinda bridal I guess. Did not wear it again iirc.

Second (and final) wedding: 40 family and friends (mostly the former tbh; we prioritized what it meant for our aging parents) in our back yard followed by cocktails at the house, than dinner at a nice restaurant down the street. I again had a dress made from a pattern I picked out. Red silk satin (pricey but WOW) wrap dress, knee length, fit like a glove. Wore it quite a few more times over the years to cocktail/dressy occasions. Mr. wore a grey 3 piece suit which has also made many more appearances.

Loved that I got to enjoy wearing that dress many times and that it cost a fraction of a "wedding dress."

My mom would have loved shopping/paying for a "wedding dress" but that was so not gonna happen. At least she got to come to the second and final wedding!

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Wednesday, 6 February 2019 02:55 (five years ago) link

in the uk stores like Monsoon, Asos etc less formal wedding dresses and nice dresses that aren't white/ivory. My friend had a great stylish one which I think was from Ann Taylor or one of those American stores but mail ordered. maybe it was banana republic.

kinder, Wednesday, 6 February 2019 11:01 (five years ago) link

Thanks everyone, I really enjoyed reading these and I’m really grateful for the advice. :)

Kinder - I was thinking of looking there too! Mail order might be a bit too unreliable esp if we have a no deal crash though, plus I’m the world’s least patient person.

gyac, Wednesday, 6 February 2019 11:05 (five years ago) link

maybe it was j.crew.... it was really lovely! wish I could remember where it was actually from!

kinder, Wednesday, 6 February 2019 11:07 (five years ago) link

there was a brand on asos called Needle and Thread that had some lovely beaded stuff a few years ago

kinder, Wednesday, 6 February 2019 11:08 (five years ago) link

btw I am a bit obsessed with wedding dresses, especially non-traditional ones that still look weddingy. so I may get over invested in this!!

kinder, Wednesday, 6 February 2019 11:09 (five years ago) link

my own dress was from a proper wedding shop run by a slightly mad woman and it was from a designer who had out-there stuff. it was just a bodice and fishtail skirt in ivory but the bodice was rad with ribbons and pearls. it came with these flouncy separate sleeves that were awful and I did not wear but still crack me up.

kinder, Wednesday, 6 February 2019 11:12 (five years ago) link

Congrats. :). I wore a very simple off the shoulder satin bridesmaid’s dress that I ordered in off-white. It was gorgeous and not fussy and only about $200. Bridesmaid’s dresses are definitely something to look into if you want something less expensive and simpler than a traditional gown. If I could do the whole thing over again that dress is one of the few things I wouldn’t change!

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Wednesday, 6 February 2019 12:31 (five years ago) link

While you are shopping/mulling over non-wedding dresses you should look at Outnet. That is where I got my dresss from. Not sure what your style is but they have some really nice designer dresses under $300 that might inspire.

Yerac, Wednesday, 6 February 2019 14:43 (five years ago) link

i have never gotten married, but i do have a funny wedding dress anecdote from a friend, who had a small, informal, city hall type wedding to her long-time boyfriend -- pretty much it was them and their parents who were all nice normal Midwestern people. Anyway, so my friend is looking for non-wedding wedding dresses and thinks, "ok fine, i will use stupid pinterest to bookmark dress pictures" ... unaware that pinterest was set to automatically post to facebook. So she was mortified to learn that all her cool sound artist and musician friends saw a deluge of posts from her of pinterest pics of dresses

sarahell, Wednesday, 6 February 2019 18:39 (five years ago) link

i think i might have told her, "at least you weren't using pinterest to decide on honeymoon lingerie"

sarahell, Wednesday, 6 February 2019 18:41 (five years ago) link

omg lol @ that mistake
i would die but i am overly sensitive

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 6 February 2019 19:23 (five years ago) link

Or to look at hentai.

Thank you everyone, you’ve given me so much to think about and look into and I feel really happy and justified in what I want to do now. :) kinder I don’t mind you being invested at all!

gyac, Wednesday, 6 February 2019 19:24 (five years ago) link

xp - she felt like dying at the time, because most of her social media friends were nerdy guys

sarahell, Wednesday, 6 February 2019 19:33 (five years ago) link

aw i hope she wasn't TOO hard on herself -- she didn't do anything wrong!

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 6 February 2019 19:35 (five years ago) link

it took her a few days of mortification to decide that it was actually hilarious, and up there with "out of the office" autoresponder email list feedback loops

sarahell, Wednesday, 6 February 2019 19:40 (five years ago) link

two months pass...

gyac how is it going?

I came across this website and have no idea about where it is or if it's legit or the prices but these are wild
https://www.chotronette.com/product-category/dresses/?query_type_color=or

kinder, Saturday, 6 April 2019 22:32 (five years ago) link

btw I imagine you've already looked at Coast and Phase Eight but there's some nice stuff on there

kinder, Saturday, 6 April 2019 22:39 (five years ago) link

Hi! It’s funny you should bump this today because I think I bought my wedding dress? Work meant I hadn’t really been looking looking (although I did check phase eight & although they have some gorgeous stuff, nothing that jumped out to me). Weirdly though earlier I was on ASOS of all places - like seriously - and saw this & so I guess I’m seeing what it’s actually like on. But I definitely thought of this thread cos I was looking at bridesmaids dresses :)
https://www.asos.com/maya-tall/maya-tall-bridesmaid-long-sleeve-maxi-tulle-dress-with-tonal-delicate-sequins-in-taupe-blush/prd/11128527

gyac, Saturday, 6 April 2019 22:51 (five years ago) link

I love it. Beautiful.

xpost I would totally wear that pistachio macaroon.

Yerac, Sunday, 7 April 2019 00:24 (five years ago) link

Peach marshmallow for me

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Sunday, 7 April 2019 01:45 (five years ago) link

Omg those dresses!! I love so many of them. I’d probably wear any of them if they were in front of me but paying for them is a different story. Still, what lovely dresses!! Enchanted Forest and Cappucino were faves iirc

As usual, there’s no shortage of clothing I’d love to wear, but very little I’m interested in paying for.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Sunday, 7 April 2019 05:39 (five years ago) link

gyac that's awesome!

kinder, Sunday, 7 April 2019 07:10 (five years ago) link

That is a very pretty dress! Also, congratulations :)

alrakis morissette (tangenttangent), Sunday, 7 April 2019 07:34 (five years ago) link

I like all the ones with stars on them.

tokyo rosemary, Monday, 8 April 2019 00:27 (five years ago) link

I think I'd go for the Goth Fondant but with the sleeve type/shape from the coconut & tchaikovsky -- nah, i have way too many black dresses -- crap, ok, real answer -- midnight cake

sarahell, Monday, 8 April 2019 16:04 (five years ago) link

Those are magical, I love them (even the aesthetically questionable ones). And tbh by wedding dress pricing standards those aren't *that* much, are they? Not that I subscribe to any such standards.

Peach Marshmallow for total ruffle insanity btw, and Sucre a la Creme for the reception.

In my life, I have now constructed an Instagram-ready capsule wardrobe for my trip to Portugal in less than two weeks, and it's disgustingly hip and current and all black and white and soft rose + grey colors. Pop of yellow for the purse. I'm obsessed. Pleasantly.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Monday, 8 April 2019 16:27 (five years ago) link

I'm so deep into instagram viewing everyone else's travel pics with the hashtags of places we're going, I feel like I've already been there. I need to go on vacation more often.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Monday, 8 April 2019 16:29 (five years ago) link

Also yerac I just want you to know that I've privately decided that you're probably a spy--because of the astonishingly wide range of things you're knowledgeable about, and your travel schedule, and your generally high ability to roll with whatever comes. Out of everyone I know I'm pretty sure you're most likely to secretly be an international person of mystery. Not to blow your cover or anything.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Monday, 8 April 2019 16:32 (five years ago) link

I'm currently Instagramming pictures of our recent trip to the Algarve so there's a chance you're stumbling upon some of my over-the-top travel hashtags. Would love to see your wardrobe!

I tried creating a pared-down capsule wardrobe recently, but it dismally failed within about a week and anyway, I'm not sure how many capes and silk dressing gowns masquerading as outerwear I could have realistically assumed a capsule wardrobe needed. One day I'm sure I will be able to distinguish between what clothes I need and what fabric is the most maximalistically pretty.

Speaking of which, my favourite of those dresses is the 'Jardin Thé'.

alrakis morissette (tangenttangent), Monday, 8 April 2019 16:41 (five years ago) link

lol thanks for the heads-up! I don't think we're going to get to the Algarve, tbh, but we're planning on Porto, Sintra, Lisbon, and then Merida, SP on the way back. It won't be warm enough for the beach most likely although I suspect this 8-day trip is just going to make me want to go back for a month!

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Monday, 8 April 2019 17:23 (five years ago) link

i went absolutely bananananananas planning my wardrobe for a recent trip! i think i brought just enough clothing, but it was enough that our 1 bag had to be checked. long story short, we wound up missing our flight and i spent about 40 min in a total breakdown blaming myself for bringing too many clothes. i came to my senses and it did not discolor memories of my trip and all that was good about it BUT i wish i hadn't wigged so hard about it.

anyway these posts remind me that obsessive and extensive travel costuming is normal and the only person blaming me for caring too much about my clothes was ME :(

it's all ok now though

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, 8 April 2019 17:41 (five years ago) link

fwiw i wore the most amazing dress i've ever gotten at a thrift store and felt great in it for the whole day/night that i wore it. that alone was worth the cargo.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, 8 April 2019 17:59 (five years ago) link

Pics por favor!

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Monday, 8 April 2019 18:01 (five years ago) link

not here are you kidding?!!?

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, 8 April 2019 18:04 (five years ago) link

i'll text it to you!
i only have a photo of the dress in a group pic and you can't see it very well but it was magnificent

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, 8 April 2019 18:06 (five years ago) link

Magnificent dress is a decent recompense for missing a flight, I’d say. Glad your trip remained intact!

alrakis morissette (tangenttangent), Monday, 8 April 2019 18:08 (five years ago) link

it wasn't even really my fault i just took the opportunity to shit on myself about it

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, 8 April 2019 18:10 (five years ago) link

marzipan milkshake for my ice queen wedding then Royal Sundae or Spumoni as a guest (not that either suits my shape in the slightest)

kinder, Monday, 8 April 2019 18:59 (five years ago) link

What's a capsule wardrobe? I'm guessing like "small" but as someone who packs one pair of trousers and three shirts for a week's holiday I don't know why you need an extra term for just not having much?

My other guess is just dressing like the band Capsule, which in my head is much better:

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/d9/ba/4a/d9ba4ac85392aebd10558baf7650115e.jpg

emil.y, Monday, 8 April 2019 20:47 (five years ago) link

Yeah it’s basically a pared down number of items that can all be worn together in different combos to maximize the number of outfits.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Monday, 8 April 2019 20:50 (five years ago) link

Ah, okay, the combo thing makes sense! I was thinking somewhere along those lines but I'm not into fashion and only ever wear brown so my brain didn't quite reach it.

emil.y, Monday, 8 April 2019 20:55 (five years ago) link

Yes please do imagine me making air quotes over that term of art because I also was like

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Monday, 8 April 2019 20:57 (five years ago) link

Lol at the other reading of Capsule wardrobe - I want to make one like that!

I get the vibe, in orbit. Love that oversized shirt, though it’s the kind of thing I could never pull off.

alrakis morissette (tangenttangent), Monday, 8 April 2019 20:57 (five years ago) link

xp to self: ...WTF when I started to realize it was a life-style THING that people put on IG and Pinterest and so on. I guess I should have known. But I've gone down the rabbit hole a bit on this one, in what I hope continues to be a "fun" way.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Monday, 8 April 2019 20:58 (five years ago) link

I can see it being fun - I think my "non-fashiony person" status leads to people thinking I'm sneery about it all, but clothing can be great for creative expression and I'm never going to shit on that.

emil.y, Monday, 8 April 2019 21:03 (five years ago) link

I guess I do get a bit sneery at fashion as a set of rules, especially one that constantly changes in order to maximise profit, but that's a more understandable reaction, right?

emil.y, Monday, 8 April 2019 21:06 (five years ago) link

Yeah of course! :D I was getting really caught up in a very homogeneous set of "looks" that's portrayed on other people's soc meedz and trying to follow Porto #streetstyle or w/e.

emil.y, this is sort of a weird long shot but have you checked out the clothes at Uoozee.com? I like their kooky comfy aesthetic.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Monday, 8 April 2019 21:19 (five years ago) link

dressing as i please is one of the few pleasures in life that i indulge in to my desired degree, 100%

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, 8 April 2019 21:26 (five years ago) link

xp to io: I had not, just had a little browse and there's some good brown jumper style stuff in there, for sure. Some of the other stuff reminds me a little of dark mori style (I confess I only read about this on twitter the other day, I'm pretty into it but think I'd look more 'hobo' in it than cool and witchy).

apparently theres a variation of mori girl fashion called dark mori and it literally what an actual witch would wear pic.twitter.com/2Z5utAXQCX

— sleeby buppy (@pup_hime) April 6, 2019

emil.y, Monday, 8 April 2019 21:28 (five years ago) link

Picking and packing clothing for travel is extremely high stress, especially if the weather will be hot. Which is why I prefer traveling to cold places.

just1n3, Monday, 8 April 2019 21:29 (five years ago) link

digging the dark mori witch look in moderation. i need to go in and out of dark witch mode.

there aren't many non-self-destructive things i could do that would bring me as much real satisfaction as wearing what i want when i want.

speaking of dresses, the dress i mentioned above is sort of an autumn-colors forest maiden halter dress (i wore a crop top under it so it was more like a dirndl?) with lace accents, a tulle underskirt, a corset back, and a giant bow that ties in the back. it's not something i could imagine anyone else i know wearing but it was there waiting for me! perfect condition, could be handmade? wearing it on a trip was SO delightful and i enjoyed it immensely. i didn't even feel unchill in my crazy dress because it was totally comfortable. even thinking about it makes me mildly happy.

agree about packing being stressful. i am always cold and have a pathological need to feel fly on vacation.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, 8 April 2019 21:37 (five years ago) link

also now i have a bunion that i have to baby so that makes it harder! boo

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, 8 April 2019 21:39 (five years ago) link

I had never heard of this dark mori but I think I like it. Cozy goth otm.

I also sometimes get fb adverts for an insanely expensive line of clothing by a company called Demobaza. I think I can accurately categorize their style as "Burning Man" but I also kind of love it for the post-apocalyptic sci-fi martial arts warrior urchin vibe.

http://www.faiiint.com/faiiint/faiiint/images/2013/08/demobazaaw13-2.jpg

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Monday, 8 April 2019 21:51 (five years ago) link

I was more thorough looking through the meringue dresses. I kind of really want Noisette for regular life.

I take approximately the same things with me everywhere I travel. No jeans (too heavy), one super casual outfit for lounging or to get destroyed, the rest versatile enough for almost anything else you would want to do. I can manage about a month in one carry-on and that's even with me bringing a small amount of kitchen stuff.

xpost inorbit being completely detached from talking about work or referencing ever having to be at work makes people think you do covert things or have a large trust fund. I get both of those even at the places I am actively working at. Maybe I am just super shady.

Yerac, Monday, 8 April 2019 22:03 (five years ago) link

When you are in portugal you should find a bottle of Madeira from your birth year. It will last you forever even after opened. You can have a little every birthday.

Yerac, Monday, 8 April 2019 22:06 (five years ago) link

“pathological need to feel fly on vacation.”

THIS IS ME

just1n3, Monday, 8 April 2019 22:35 (five years ago) link

I put effort into how I look - hair, makeup, clothes, jewelry- like 6 x a year at home, but will dress up every single day I’m on vacation

just1n3, Monday, 8 April 2019 22:36 (five years ago) link

I’m in camp Yerac. The thought of checking a bag freaks me out. If I don’t wear/use every single thing I’ve oacked multiple times, I feel I’ve done something very wrong. I’m a proponent of packing for 1 week even if you are gone for 3. I will do laundry in a bath tub if it cones to that. I have buy socks if I run out before laundry gets done. I have worn my spouse’s underwear when I have run out of my own. Shoe selection is my biggest issue as I try to pack only one pair in addition to those I wear on the plane.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Monday, 8 April 2019 22:44 (five years ago) link

It should be said that I don’t travel much, the opportunity to do so makes me want to dress up MORE.

Everyone’s different. We don’t need to do it one way or the other or divide into teams. I know that wearing dumb clothes makes me less appealing as a travel partner. That’s part of why I felt bad at the airport.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, 8 April 2019 22:52 (five years ago) link

I’d love to have the kind of travel experience that makes me care less about what I’m wearing. Instead I’m stuck in high school kid mode wearing my ruffled shirt on the school trip to Washington DC.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, 8 April 2019 22:55 (five years ago) link

I love when people look fab from a suitcase! I keep it simple because I like the ease, and also the challenge. I alsobiy things on the road to liven things up, for example the like 5 loose cotton dresses I picked ip in India which have replaced my sarong/tee look of prior packs.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Monday, 8 April 2019 23:00 (five years ago) link

That was supposed to be “also buy”

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Monday, 8 April 2019 23:01 (five years ago) link

Yeah, I have to keep it simple because I hate the whole process of flying so much. I do tend to dress a bit nicer when away but everything I have is super comfortable but has one weird styley thing about it that I wouldn't feel underdressed if I am out from morning to dinnertime.

Yerac, Monday, 8 April 2019 23:25 (five years ago) link

We don’t need to do it one way or the other or divide into teams. I know that wearing dumb clothes makes me less appealing as a travel partner. That’s part of why I felt bad at the airport.

if we did, I would be on your team. I am the "maybe this will come in handy" person when I go places. But even on the occasions where I don't use the extra pair of underwear, or socks, or warm layer, or tank top, or plastic bag to put things that are wet and kinda gross, or fingernail clippers, or spare phone charger cable/plug, or multi-tool (off-brand leatherman basically) ... I feel better having the "maybe this will come in handy" items. otoh the only shoes I travel with are the ones I wear on the road/plane, and a pair of like, bathroom/bedroom slippers.

sarahell, Tuesday, 9 April 2019 08:19 (five years ago) link

Haha I love that you'd take a multi-tool, I might borrow that idea.

I also generally pack for every hypothetical situation ("maybe we'll go to the opera!") and don't feel bad about it. That said, it is a blessed relief to travel to a warm country and pack only silks and light cottons so that ten dresses can squeeze into a backpack-sized space. This talk is very much making me want to book another holiday - flights to...Bergerac are only £20!

alrakis morissette (tangenttangent), Tuesday, 9 April 2019 08:26 (five years ago) link

I am absolutely shit at packing. I always bring way too much and forget the essential things. It helps when I make lists but I'm still terrible. New goal - get better at packing!

When you are in portugal you should find a bottle of Madeira from your birth year. It will last you forever even after opened. You can have a little every birthday.

― Yerac, Monday, April 8, 2019 6:06 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

My parents and I went to Portugal (Lisbon, the Algarve, and Madeira) for 10 days when I was 13 and my dad did just that. IIRC he opened it on his 50th birthday. IO have a wonderful time. It's a beautiful place and I really want to go back one day. Madeira is out of this world beautiful.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Tuesday, 9 April 2019 08:49 (five years ago) link

We don’t need to do it one way or the other or divide into teams. I know that wearing dumb clothes makes me less appealing as a travel partner.

To be honest, reading your posts has made me desperately want to join your team for a one-off full glam holiday extravaganza, but I have nobody to do it with irl, bah.

emil.y, Tuesday, 9 April 2019 15:22 (five years ago) link

Instead I’m stuck in high school kid mode wearing my ruffled shirt on the school trip to Washington DC.

I love you so much and feel exactly like this almost always. I think the thing that changed for me this trip is that I can't even imagine that where we're going is real and I don't rly know what "normal" ppl wear there so all I can do is style myself how I would ideally want and not have to think about every nuance of how formal something is or if it's right for this setting or that activity. Which I normally do. Because I complicate everything. Anyway, other places might as well be THE MOON to me is what I'm saying. I can't wait to get off the plane in Madrid and hear Spanish.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Tuesday, 9 April 2019 15:32 (five years ago) link

That said, it is a blessed relief to travel to a warm country and pack only silks and light cottons so that ten dresses can squeeze into a backpack-sized space.

<3

sarahell, Tuesday, 9 April 2019 15:35 (five years ago) link

also, i am just so used to doing everything by myself. like, i imagine if one was traveling with another person, maybe all my "just in case" stuff wouldn't feel as necessary

sarahell, Tuesday, 9 April 2019 15:48 (five years ago) link

Lol it’s just worse with another person bc you worry about twice as much stuff being forgotten. We got to Amsterdam last year and Jordan realized he hadn’t packed a single pair of underwear.

just1n3, Tuesday, 9 April 2019 16:04 (five years ago) link

hahahaha

sarahell, Tuesday, 9 April 2019 16:14 (five years ago) link

lol I'm such a slob on holiday. I pack nice stuff then wear the same two things pretty much. since having kids i dress way more for comfort than I used to, also I never have a chance to shop except for essentials and none of my old clothes fit any more, whereas previously I'd kind of built up a nice collection over the years of stuff that might loosely be described as a 'style'.

my oh once managed to pack without including any tshirts/ tops for the whole week. luckily asos do next day delivery...

kinder, Tuesday, 9 April 2019 17:03 (five years ago) link

xpost in orbit, I may have missed, but are you going anywhere else in Spain? And then train to Portugal?

Yerac, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 01:59 (five years ago) link

a one-off full glam holiday extravaganza
been thinking about what my ideal version of this would look like -- probably in a city, definitely housed in an apartment (not a hotel), ideally in a place i could speak the language, which leaves open any english or spanish speaking location

i have been dreaming about Mexico City ever since i went there, probably there for lack of a better option

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 12 April 2019 22:05 (five years ago) link

I’m on a long weekend vacation in LA, staying at the Waldorf in Beverly Hills, with a suitcase full of clothes from old navy. The in-room hair dryer is a fucking *Dyson*. Every single guest I’ve seen here looks insanely rich. Also skinny. I’ve been working the last year to be ok with how big my body is but being surrounded by precisely manicured perfection sure makes it tough.

This room is extremely fancy and lovely, there’s a deck with a great view, I had a delicious Italian dinner, and I started watching Russian Doll which is extremely aesthetically pleasing to me, so I’m gonna focus on that.

just1n3, Saturday, 13 April 2019 08:30 (five years ago) link

When my best friend from college moved to LA she had a really hard time dealing with how perfect everyone looked there. It took years before she was comfortable with herself and in her own skin in that city. So sad.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Saturday, 13 April 2019 08:45 (five years ago) link

So. I want 1) to get stinking drunk, and 2) I want to get laid. Difficulty: Life has made a point of telling me everything I want is WRONG.

There are actually two men showing interest in me, but one goes to the gym at my workplace, and the other lives across the street from me. (Also, extrapolating from the way he treats his dog, he is a fundamentally decent person and I don't want to do him wrong.) I don't even expect useful responses, I just wanted to say something to SOMEONE.

Anne Hedonia (j.lu), Monday, 15 April 2019 23:49 (five years ago) link

Smh at that weight watchers thread.

Erica, if you’re reading this - don’t go back in there. I’m staying out bc ppl are getting v weird at the idea that it’s ok to be fat.

just1n3, Wednesday, 24 April 2019 19:08 (four years ago) link

I don't think that anyone (maybe 1) was necessarily being weird about it. I remember liking that article you posted when it first came out but on that thread I guess it could feel discouraging for people who are trying to make changes to themselves without it being a criticism on other peoples' bodies.

Yerac, Wednesday, 24 April 2019 19:23 (four years ago) link

Just looked before coming here. All this stuff is so loaded for me that I should really just steer clear. I only commented yesterday because 1400 calories seemed alarmingly low for an adult male. There’s a reason you see people posting in there - oops gained most of it back! Ugh.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Wednesday, 24 April 2019 19:40 (four years ago) link

i don't read/look at any of that
i objected to the revival of the "nutrition nazi" thread and i feel that in 2019 the harm of ___ nazi is pretty clear but also i completely object to the idea that calorie restriction is equivalent to nutrition.

none of that stuff for me thx

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 24 April 2019 19:42 (four years ago) link

I really did enjoy aspects of the NN thread back in the days where it was deeply into sardines, but agree that —— Nazi is not cool and I don’t have any particular sensitivities around this stuff (anymore!) so I am still game to read that thread.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Wednesday, 24 April 2019 20:34 (four years ago) link

Sometimes I think the nicest thing about unemployment is I don't have to hear woman who are much smaller than me complain about how fat they are.

tokyo rosemary, Thursday, 25 April 2019 02:38 (four years ago) link

It's always relative but, yes, this is something I've never fucking understood. How tone deaf are people that they think doing this is OK? Then again what people say never ceases to amaze me. When I was about 13 I was having a ice cream cone with friends and some fucking asshole jock dude walked by and said "You don't need that, hon". A stranger on the street said this to a child. Maybe a year or so later I had a twisted ankle and was sitting with some older camp counselors who were talkign about one of my friend's figures and how they wished they looked like her and I must have said something like "I know, right?" to fit in and one of them snapped back at me "Well, when I was your age I did look like her" as if I had no excuse. People are assholes and have absolutely no idea how much damage this shit does. Not that it matters but the fact that I was no larger than a size 12 at either of these times does make it a little more ridiculous.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Thursday, 25 April 2019 13:25 (four years ago) link

How tone deaf are people that they think doing this is OK?

A lot of them probably do think that they're fat and that you (the general 'you' of whoever happens to be in the room at the time) are not. I am fairly fat but I've caught myself complaining about my size around women who are several sizes larger than me, because in my head they look good and I don't, and that's the thing. I have no problem with any woman being fat but I have a problem with ME being fat, because I've so internalised the hatred and fear. It is thoughtless behaviour, I know, but I tend to give people who are directing that prejudice at themselves and not at others the benefit of the doubt. However, if they do direct it outwards then they can go fuck themselves, that's a given.

emil.y, Thursday, 25 April 2019 13:53 (four years ago) link

I feel similarly about people who look at me and say to my face “I hate you” because I am small. Like I am just a small person, always have been, and didn’t ask for this. I hate you? Really? This is from friends! They always say they’re joking but 1) not funny and 2) still hurts to be told that someone HATES me even (especially?) in jest. The cruelty never ends. I’m really over people using jokes as a cover for whatever it is they’re actually expressing. Also 100% done with the self-loathing that motivates it.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 25 April 2019 13:55 (four years ago) link

People are the absolute worst. I used to hate going to Taiwan to visit family because I always was the biggest girl in every room and other women had no problem pinching and laughing at the huge visiting american. My mom still thinks that the worst thing to happen in life is to become fat and it's impossible to deprogram her.

I was just rewatching the Bridget Jones movies this week because it popped up on netflix and holy crap, a lot of it has aged super poorly.

Yerac, Thursday, 25 April 2019 13:57 (four years ago) link

x-post - You're absolutely right and I'm sure I've been guilty of this in the past too but it just seems inexcusable in this day and age and mostly just makes me sad.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Thursday, 25 April 2019 14:01 (four years ago) link

The bridget jones shit annoyed me at the time I mean wtf she's not even remotely fat at any point in the movie.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Thursday, 25 April 2019 14:02 (four years ago) link

"People are the absolute worst. I used to hate going to Taiwan to visit family because I always was the biggest girl in every room and other women had no problem pinching and laughing at the huge visiting american." Until literally the last time I talked to her before she died my foreign grandmother's first question to me on every phone call would be if I was "watching my figure". I wish I could say I'm over all this shit but I'm not. I wore a dress last weekend and felt so terrible about myself I was anxious all day. I'm hot and I'm 41 years old for fucks sake. I know this and yet I was an anxious mess the entire day and had to force myself not to just go home and hide inside. Thanks grandma and random asshole who told me not to eat ice cream.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Thursday, 25 April 2019 14:04 (four years ago) link

I had no recollection of the second movie and was constantly amazed about every single decision to humiliate her. xpost

Yerac, Thursday, 25 April 2019 14:05 (four years ago) link

I think I've only ever seen the first. How many were there??

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Thursday, 25 April 2019 14:06 (four years ago) link

Ha, the last time I spoke to my mom on the phone (I haven't seen my family since they voted for Trump and only talk to my mom on the phone) my spouse was saying something to me and I was shhh'ing him and she thought I had this secret that I didn't want to tell her and she said "is it that you got fat?" I was like "ffs, this is exactly why I don't like spending time with any of you when you didn't even try to be nice or appreciative that we took the time and energy to visit."

I think there are 3 although I only rewatched the first two.

Yerac, Thursday, 25 April 2019 14:10 (four years ago) link

The last time I spent time with my mom before her death she actually said to me, over Christmas dinner no less, "You really like to eat, huh?". When I asked what she meant by that she said that she could see it in my body. I lost my shit. This is the same woman who took me to the doctor when I was underweight from not eating and ok i have to stop because I'm getting upset just talking about it but yeah. Fuck all of this.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Thursday, 25 April 2019 14:20 (four years ago) link

I'm a pretty consistently happy person but family can drive anyone to the opposite extreme. There is never anything rational about the behaviours involved.

Yerac, Thursday, 25 April 2019 14:31 (four years ago) link

A lot of them probably do think that they're fat and that you (the general 'you' of whoever happens to be in the room at the time) are not. ... complaining about my size around women who are several sizes larger than me, because in my head they look good and I don't, and that's the thing.

I used to be in a band w/ 2 other women, and one of them, the singer, would do this. ... She was the thinnest of the 3 of us. ... Now she is ... very, very, thin ... and she is/was open about having body dysmorphia. Anyway, what you said, emil.y, makes this weird disjunction make sense to me. ... because this woman would complain about being fat, say things that equate fat with being unattractive, in front of/to me -- a plus-sized person -- and not think she was being remotely insulting or awkward.

sarahell, Thursday, 25 April 2019 15:44 (four years ago) link

I do think that sometimes there's a degree of this but I also think sometimes people really are just assholes and don't care (like the women in the swimsuit story above).

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Thursday, 25 April 2019 15:47 (four years ago) link

I definitely underestimate the assholism of people sometimes, and it can lead to me seeming like an apologist for assholes, but I just always want to be sympathetic initially before remembering how much everyone sucks.

emil.y, Thursday, 25 April 2019 15:53 (four years ago) link

The cruelty of other people always has a purpose. I do apologize it sometimes from older women because they were brainwashed into thinking that their daughters need to attract and be married off in order for everyone to have successfully accomplished most important goals in life. Or else because they never got the chance to not give a shit how they looked.

Yerac, Thursday, 25 April 2019 16:00 (four years ago) link

xxp - I want to be able to teleport/time travel to be able to yell at these people.

sarahell, Thursday, 25 April 2019 16:00 (four years ago) link

It's never too late to start!

Yerac, Thursday, 25 April 2019 16:02 (four years ago) link

xp - ugh. I guess I am lucky in that I never got that from my mother or my grandmother. Instead I got from my mother, "it's very important that you develop skills in order to be self-sufficient, so that you don't have to get married in order to be financially stable." My mother has been more-or-less happily married to my father for 50+ years. So it's not like she is passing on a lesson that she had to learn the hard way. But, I have taken this advice, and somehow combined it with my body image/fatness, and internalized it as "because I am fat (among other personal flaws), and am unlikely to find a suitable partner to marry, it is imperative that I'm able to be self-reliant."

sarahell, Thursday, 25 April 2019 16:09 (four years ago) link

like if I was thin and cute and not an overbearing bitch, I could easily meet a future partner who can provide at least half of our collective financial support and carry heavy objects, and get food for me when I'm sick, etc.

sarahell, Thursday, 25 April 2019 16:11 (four years ago) link

My mom stressed the same thing about self reliance and I totally internalized it as well, but I thought it was bc I’m an only child and there is no one what will take care of me. I really bought that 100%.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 25 April 2019 16:21 (four years ago) link

My mom stressed self reliance (probably because she dislikes who she ended up marrying) but then she flips to the opposite all the time. I think a lot of parents just parented according to what they thought they should do/say but didn't actually believe it or had no intention of practicing it once the kids became independent adults. People just say shitty things aloud all the time. People are complicated.

Yerac, Thursday, 25 April 2019 16:39 (four years ago) link

my mother was always thinking of various female relatives and friends, whom she would hold up as "cautionary tales." ... like her sister, Judy, who has always been single. Judy didn't finish college until she was in her 50s; she worked a series of low-paying jobs in cafes, restaurants, and bookstores, from which she would regularly quit or get fired, generally because she would complain about something that wasn't "fair" or "done properly," and would go back and forth between having to move back in with my grandparents, to being able to afford to rent a small apartment ... the cautionary tale of Aunt Judy wasn't "you need to get married" but "graduate from college and develop useful skills in the labor market," as well as "keep your complaints to yourself." ... Then there is my mom's friend, Cindy -- another cautionary tale -- who is also obese, but unlike my mother, did not have healthy eating habits so she developed type 2 diabetes and struggled with having to eat vegetables and cut down on soda. The cautionary tale of Cindy isn't "don't be fat," but instead, "remember how your mother raised you to eat salad with most meals" and "learn to cook nutritious foods in a way that makes you want to eat them"

sarahell, Thursday, 25 April 2019 16:57 (four years ago) link

oops, I deleted a sentence about how my mother has been fat/obese since her late 20s (around the time I was born) and I pretty much inherited her metabolism and body type. ...

sarahell, Thursday, 25 April 2019 17:02 (four years ago) link

from the weight watchas thread:

depression over the ugly ugly clothes I've had to wear as a fat person (there are no fashionable stores for "plus size" dudes - anything you can buy in casual male xl will make you look like a retired cop at church)

part of me sympathizes with this as a plus size person ... but as a woman, I have an instinctive urge to say "waaah poor baby" because women's fashion is so much more fraught and there is so much more baggage, and the reason that things are actually "better" in plus-size women's fashion, is a lot of activism and advocacy and a lot of that has come from women of color, and like, if women of color can do the work to improve the quality and options for plus-size women's fashion ... imagine how much white men could do if they put their privilege to work.

sarahell, Thursday, 25 April 2019 17:09 (four years ago) link

Really want to post this on the other thread but they’ll lost their shit if I do. I think it’s really important.

http://i63.tinypic.com/ngom8p.jpg

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Thursday, 25 April 2019 18:08 (four years ago) link

Hahahahaha omg I’m dying - wrong picture!!

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Thursday, 25 April 2019 18:08 (four years ago) link

This is what I meant to post:

http://i66.tinypic.com/1hfako.jpg

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Thursday, 25 April 2019 18:10 (four years ago) link

holy shit, I didn't scroll and just spent way too much time trying to put the evian dick sucking post in context with the ww thread.

Yerac, Thursday, 25 April 2019 18:15 (four years ago) link

lol I mean that’s an important tweet for sure but not in reference to that thread

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Thursday, 25 April 2019 18:17 (four years ago) link

omg the evian dick sucking!!

sarahell, Thursday, 25 April 2019 18:23 (four years ago) link

Oh god, I laughed so hard at that.

emil.y, Thursday, 25 April 2019 19:20 (four years ago) link

from the weight watchas thread:

depression over the ugly ugly clothes I've had to wear as a fat person (there are no fashionable stores for "plus size" dudes - anything you can buy in casual male xl will make you look like a retired cop at church)

As someone who has spent the past decade moving from "buying plus size clothes in the women's department" to "buying plus size clothes in the men's department", I can categorically state that the original post is not even remotely true. (And I don't even shop at ~fashionable stores~ - I'm able to find stuff that fits and looks stylish at high street shops like Marks and Sparks and Debenhams.)

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Friday, 26 April 2019 07:34 (four years ago) link

ha, I did the reverse journey about 5-10 years ago (plus size men's to plus size women's). ... like part of the reason why I started dressing butch at the time was because I "got fat"

sarahell, Friday, 26 April 2019 16:58 (four years ago) link

not implying anything about anyone other than me ... or raising politics of gender presentation, etc. ... just that as a plus-size person, menswear, with its waist and in-seam sizing was very liberating, compared to ... okay, now you are too fat to buy regular clothes, you have to go to this sad corner next to the maternity section to buy clothes, and sometimes the plus sizes get mixed with the mumswear, and it is an awkward experience when you are not, in fact, pregnant

sarahell, Friday, 26 April 2019 17:02 (four years ago) link

the semiotics thread i started 10 years ago was inspired by that

sarahell, Friday, 26 April 2019 17:04 (four years ago) link

I think I’m basically ready now to get married bar a few last minute things - genuinely a bit “oh fuck” now that it’s so near and all.

I have a little bouquet charm so I want to source a nice ribbon for that, otherwise weirdly I think (besides the obvious), I am most looking forward to my dad’s speech and I’m going to cry like fifty times.

gyac, Monday, 6 May 2019 16:21 (four years ago) link

congrats again! do you have a date set? I was unaware of bouquet charms and am now looking them up.

Yerac, Monday, 6 May 2019 17:45 (four years ago) link

My sincerest felicitations to the bride to be!

For my part I've seen and even talked to that guy at the gym again (named Nick, BTW). I thought I psyched myself up to talk to him again today, so of course he didn't show up. It was the sort of day when I suspect I have a fairy godmother watching over my love life...but she has no idea what she's doing. Oh, well.

Anne Hedonia (j.lu), Monday, 6 May 2019 22:18 (four years ago) link

four weeks pass...

I am actually legit fat and no one calls me fat. Like, calling someone fat, or making fat jabs seems like something intended for the moderately chubby.

homosexual II, Tuesday, 4 June 2019 17:26 (four years ago) link

one month passes...

Real sick of ilx men being sure they're objectively right about things even after they've made clear they don't even understand the thing. Real sick of it.

emil.y, Saturday, 13 July 2019 13:19 (four years ago) link

This could be about several things, but is there any thread in particular?

I’m having something like this irl atm and it is so tedious. And the person tried to tell me they knew more about anti-Irish sentiment than I did (!) they are not Irish at all.

gyac, Saturday, 13 July 2019 13:55 (four years ago) link

xp I hear you.

kinder, Saturday, 13 July 2019 13:58 (four years ago) link

I don't really want to be more specific as I know lots of guys read this thread even if they don't post in it, but just feeling glum and like I've been chased out of a thread where I wanted to share excitement about a thing, but instead now I've been patronised and dismissed.

emil.y, Saturday, 13 July 2019 14:35 (four years ago) link

Np. It’s a really shit feeling.

gyac, Saturday, 13 July 2019 14:40 (four years ago) link

in real life/otherwise I just add these guys to my theory of men having a dominant inheritance pattern of brain damage.

Yerac, Saturday, 13 July 2019 14:43 (four years ago) link

emil.y, I have been appreciating your and La Lechera’s posts on a recent thread, because I figured if those two posters liked it, I bet I will too!

tokyo rosemary, Saturday, 13 July 2019 18:26 (four years ago) link

Thanks, rosemary!

emil.y, Sunday, 14 July 2019 14:42 (four years ago) link

I was talking about this thing with a friend the other day, and I realize I do this -- I mentally divide guys into two categories: the ones I totally expect to be condescending and overestimate their knowledge/expertise, and the "good ones" that are smarter and more thoughtful than that. When the category one guys do that thing, I shrug, shake my head, roll my eyes -- and think "lol u dumb, you make your gender look bad." ... When one of the "good ones" do it, I sometimes feel like it's a betrayal, and sometimes even makes me sad that everyone, including people I like a lot, are actually kinda trash.

sarahell, Wednesday, 17 July 2019 18:56 (four years ago) link

100x it me -- "as if every trip [outdoors] were a trek on the appalachian trail"

i've always been proud of myself for being so prepared but it is a chore. i wonder if i thought i could rely on anyone else to have the things if i would carry less stuff around. it has never occurred to me tbh.

it was actually worse when i was younger. my cargo was reduced substantially with the invention of the ipod so i will always be thankful for that.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 23 July 2019 19:37 (four years ago) link

Observation 1: Not taking anything with you is also an economic power statement--that you can buy (or someone will give you?!) anything you unexpectedly (or expectedly!) need. I took everything including the kitchen sink with me every day when I had $0. It feels a little bit amazing now to travel a little lighter, either for a day or a week, across town or around the world, and say that I have the basics and I'll figure out the rest as it comes.

Observation 2: Conversely, I also find it satisfying to have JUST THE RIGHT THING for a challenge or crisis! And that's a pleasure of feeling capable, prepared, adult, powerful in a different way.

Por que no los dos, obviously. Still enjoyed the article.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Tuesday, 23 July 2019 19:41 (four years ago) link

Freedom from having to carry stuff is power.
super-otm

i bought a fanny pack and wore it for the first time this past weekend. it was pretty awesome but took a little getting used to, like maybe an hour. having my hands free and no cargo on my back felt great even if my bag kept flopping around

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 23 July 2019 19:41 (four years ago) link

i am never carrying a handbag ever again
i used to! my vintage bag collection is quite enviable tbh but i will never carry those bags irl again. need hands!!

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 23 July 2019 19:43 (four years ago) link

Wow! Little did I know I was opening such a deliciously passionate jar of pickles! I love it.

Did you wonder what to do with your hands?

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Tuesday, 23 July 2019 19:44 (four years ago) link

observation 1 and 2 otm.

Yerac, Tuesday, 23 July 2019 19:45 (four years ago) link

no i do not. i use them to gesticulate, swing, fend off attackers, hold other stuff :)

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 23 July 2019 19:46 (four years ago) link

I have been carrying a messenger style bag since I was 12 (because I need my hands free!) and recently started having hip pain on that side because of it. I appreciate how this was brought up in the article.

Yerac, Tuesday, 23 July 2019 19:47 (four years ago) link

I always carry a big bag of stuff but I live in a mess and am a mess generally, so I don't think that article works really. I mostly carry books, notebooks, my wallet, phone, and random bits of crap I've accumulated, not paper towels.

(As an aside, I say "bag" because in British English a purse means something more like a coin purse - I think what you call a purse is more like a handbag and I don't use those either, I use satchel-type bags.)

emil.y, Tuesday, 23 July 2019 19:54 (four years ago) link

Observation 1: Not taking anything with you is also an economic power statement--that you can buy (or someone will give you?!) anything you unexpectedly (or expectedly!) need. I took everything including the kitchen sink with me every day when I had $0. It feels a little bit amazing now to travel a little lighter, either for a day or a week, across town or around the world, and say that I have the basics and I'll figure out the rest as it comes.

I do really like this observation, I think it holds more true than most of the article!

emil.y, Tuesday, 23 July 2019 19:56 (four years ago) link

Thank you! That observation is brought to you by the self-imposed panic I would regularly feel at packing for a trip because I had to take everything I might possibly need because I had no money!

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Tuesday, 23 July 2019 20:01 (four years ago) link

oh yeah agree -- i have felt that my whole adult life. it's part of why i resisted familiarizing myself with the marie kondo lifestyle -- i believed that i must keep/carry all useful things because otherwise i would have to buy them again. guided by scarcity :-/

i still keep things that are meaningful but if they're not, i say thank you, goodbye. esp to things that are ugly, like the pinstriped blazer i was saving for some mystery time i would need a blazer and i realized that time would never come. and if it does, there is a thrift store somewhere nearby full of blazers for me. "self-imposed panic" otm. i guess i probably still feel it but i am more aware that it's self imposed.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 23 July 2019 20:10 (four years ago) link

I carried one of these as a day bag for a couple of years because I could bungee strap it to the back of my scooter but it's rubbish for walking around cos it takes up a whole hand.

https://www.kleintools.com/sites/all/product_assets/resized/250x250/klein/5102-16.jpg

Lately I've switched to backpacks but I have to admit they're hard to get in and out. You know what's really easy to get into? A pocket.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Tuesday, 23 July 2019 20:13 (four years ago) link

Freedom from having to carry stuff is power.
super-otm

I just want to explore this a tiny bit, while knowing perfectly well what you meant.

Because there's also a long history of women not carrying stuff out of an aesthetic of helplessness, like bc men would carry it for them or solve their problems for them (or, as I read explicitly somewhere, that the man of the party would pay for everything so a woman didn't need a wallet or any money--presumably not including the taxi fare to get the hell home from that dystopian nightmare). That's an aesthetic that I always think is expressed perfectly by those ridiculous Judith Leiber miniature clutches fwiw.

So yeah freedom from having to carry stuff and knowing that you can deal with whatever FOR YOUR SELF is the bomb.com!

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Tuesday, 23 July 2019 20:26 (four years ago) link

the smart phone has been like a major blessing in that regard. So many fewer things to need access to because I can use my phone for them. ... I do not get purses/bags that you have to carry with your hands, like ... to me that feels kinda ... I don't want to say privileged, but like, ... it implies that someone else will open doors for you and that you don't have to carry other things?

I have a medium sized (I think? maybe it's smallish?) shoulder bag with a strap long enough to go cross body if I have to do things like load/unload/carry music gear or packages. I avoided having a purse for many years because it was like an easy target for muggers? The one time I did get mugged (it was about 20 1/2 yrs ago), I had a purse on my shoulder, and that was what the guy wanted. After that, I would just keep what I needed in pants or jacket/coat pockets. It takes more initiative/a greater level of aggression to violate the person's body as opposed to grabbing an object they are carrying.

sarahell, Tuesday, 23 July 2019 20:31 (four years ago) link

ha - in orbit -- we were simultaneously thinking of similar issues!

sarahell, Tuesday, 23 July 2019 20:32 (four years ago) link

xp - those two sides of the same thing (carrying very little oneself) seems emblematic of the constant mixed messages/double edged sword that tears us apart
so many caveats to whether or not we should feel good about our independence

i can't even imagine relying on someone else for that stuff, to carry my things. also last weekend i saw lots of people and their bags working the gate at a music fest. there were a couple of festival-goers who were asked to leave their large bags outside because they exceeded the new size limit and they were all men. i don't think the gender split necessarily works wrt bags/spilage/paper towels as well as the article wants it to but the whole topic is interesting as i see people wanting less and less stuff around/on them.

I do not get purses/bags that you have to carry with your hands, like ... to me that feels kinda ... I don't want to say privileged, but like, ... it implies that someone else will open doors for you and that you don't have to carry other things?
back when i carried such things, i would imagine people would have made this assumption about me but they would have been wrong. even with my dumb vintage handbags, i was still a carrier of everything, it was just less convenient and i was younger so i cared less. i still always had advil and band-aids. no one ever opened doors for me regardless of my handbag, lol! so many women-coded accessories are coded this way, it makes me sad that they are used to divide us.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 23 July 2019 20:38 (four years ago) link

honestly, for many years the bulk of my purse was various sets of keys ... so many keys.

sarahell, Tuesday, 23 July 2019 20:39 (four years ago) link

i carry my keys around my neck sometimes and it relieves a lot of "where are my keys?!" fear

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 23 July 2019 20:39 (four years ago) link

not very cute tho

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 23 July 2019 20:39 (four years ago) link

ok, I'm kinda procrastinating doing work, so ...

contents of purse:
wallet
house keys
car key
cigarette lighter
cigarette pack
tampons (2)
pair of sunglasses
loose change
phone
tinted lip balm
lipstick (2)
ipod
fuck it pouch (cloth zipper pouch that says "fuck it" on it)
a handful of audio adapters
a ground lift

sarahell, Tuesday, 23 July 2019 20:43 (four years ago) link

A lot of women do that in schools, I have learned! Presumably a combo of always having to lock yr office/desk/bathroom/classroom when you leave it + women’s clothes not dependably having pocketsssss.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Tuesday, 23 July 2019 20:43 (four years ago) link

the audio adapters & ground lift are in the the fuck it pouch
oh, and a ring of work keys, that has about half the keys that used to be on that ring before I reduced my role at that job

sarahell, Tuesday, 23 July 2019 20:45 (four years ago) link

Whoops sorry I meant wearing keys (and other things) around the neck.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Tuesday, 23 July 2019 20:47 (four years ago) link

i hate wearing things around my neck ... like, no offense to people who do ... but it's kinda ... idk, makes me feel like a beast of burden or a pet, and they just end up twisting around and getting chokey ... or breaking, or getting caught on things ... at worst, they fall off and get lost ...

sarahell, Tuesday, 23 July 2019 20:57 (four years ago) link

Handbag:

Wallet
Makeup bag
Sunglasses case
Saline solution
Umbrella
Brush
Handcream
Mints x2
Earphones x2
Lint roller
Pencil case
Planner
Keys

Have been thinking about getting a smart leather looking backpack just need to find the right one.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Tuesday, 23 July 2019 20:57 (four years ago) link

fuck i forgot about mints -- mints are key

also, sorry if the neck thing re: feeling like a pet sounded crass -- my client that has a business making custom leather pet collars was just texting me and I think that was why my brain went there

sarahell, Tuesday, 23 July 2019 20:59 (four years ago) link

that's what i mean about how these things (what we carry) divide us -- it makes me sad
maybe someone can write a war novel about it and call it "the things we carried" :)

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 23 July 2019 21:03 (four years ago) link

i just meant on a lanyard because i frequently 1) lose my keys and 2) have to carry them everywhere at work

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 23 July 2019 21:04 (four years ago) link

I liked that article! Generally I have on my person:
-change of clothes for baby
-change of clothes for boy
-nappies, mat, cotton pads, nappy disposal bags
-hand sanitiser
-baby paracetamol
-plastic fork, small plastic tub
-wallet
-keys
-large muslin
-sun cream, sun hats
-dummies
-several snacks
-3 x sunglasses
-plastic bags
-2 x water bottles
- lip balm
- wipes, paper towels
- a small child

The few times I go out BY MYSELF oh God the luxury
-wallet
-keys
-lipbalm
-phone
-tissues
-a spring in my step

kinder, Tuesday, 23 July 2019 21:26 (four years ago) link

What’s a dummy?

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 23 July 2019 21:27 (four years ago) link

pacifier

kinder, Tuesday, 23 July 2019 21:39 (four years ago) link

It's so hot I'm wearing skirts a lot right now and half of them don't have pockets and it's a total ballache

kinder, Tuesday, 23 July 2019 21:41 (four years ago) link

Bag contains:

- sunglasses
- lipstick
- keys
- wallet
- various charger cables
- a portable charger
- usually a couple of Carmexes & some other lip balms
- water (metal keep cool type bottle)
- a number of sanitary products
- paracetamol
- headphones (Bluetooth)
- my plenue
- spare pair of earphones & adapter in case I am ever caught on the hop on public transport heaven forbid
- big hairbrush
- folding hairbrush with a mirror
- mascara
- at least five sachets of salt and sugar that I never use, why do I even have these
- glasses case & lenses
- tissues
- face wipes

Despite the obvious evidence to the contrary, I don’t consider myself to carry “a lot of stuff”

gyac, Tuesday, 23 July 2019 22:04 (four years ago) link

My sister has recently taken to going bag-free and just carries a card/keys/phone on her. This is too far for me, but I do this on holidays & it’s so freeing.

gyac, Tuesday, 23 July 2019 22:08 (four years ago) link

i hate wearing things around my neck

At work we're meant to wear a proximity fob for the doors plus our ID badge on a neck lanyard and I haaate it because when I walk up and down the corridors the fob bounces from tit to tit with each step and, well, nope. So I just stuff them in my pockets.

I think I am at both extremes of the carrying stuff debate, bcz every day I drag a rucksack ridiculously full of I don't even remember what to work, so heavy and full and so many things like empty shopping bags and once-useful bits of paper and spare socks and pills and sanitary products which have rattled around in there for so long that they're distinctly on the unsanitary side now

but if I go to town for a few hours to see a gig or meet a friend for lunch I quite often don't take a bag, just fill my pockets (keys, wallet, phone, tissues, maybe a hair tie - though my wallet is p bulky and I like a good supply of tissues so I do end up with conspicuously bulging pockets, NAGL I guess but then being me is generally NAGL so I don't really care) - I do sometimes feel a bit weird and underprepared meeting my good lunch friend who always has a massive shoulder bag and then I rock up with just 4 jeans pockets and maybe a jacket pocket too

a passing spacecadet, Tuesday, 23 July 2019 22:41 (four years ago) link

What if when you needed a tissue, someone else had one for you and you didn't need to carry them? What if when you had a headache, you said, "Hey, does anyone have an Advil?" and someone did?

i wonder if i thought i could rely on anyone else to have the things if i would carry less stuff around.

????

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Tuesday, 23 July 2019 23:34 (four years ago) link

After all these years, you are my people. YOU KNOW ME. You know that I love being the person who has sunblock and clean plastic cutlery and a salt packet and a highlighter and dental floss and a gluten-free snack bar in my bag. I can embrace that.

But you know what I find interesting? When I put essentials in my pockets (when my clothes have pockets which is another topic) and I go out hands-free...I feel more masculine. In a good way--a performative way--I hope it's okay to say, kind of in a butch way? I'm pretty sure I read as femme to ppl bc I'm comfortable wearing dresses and being "cute" but inside I don't feel particularly femme, and getting my wallet and my keys out of my jeans pockets makes me feel like I'm doing a whole other thing.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Tuesday, 23 July 2019 23:45 (four years ago) link

.I feel more masculine. In a good way--a performative way--I hope it's okay to say, kind of in a butch way? ... getting my wallet and my keys out of my jeans pockets makes me feel like I'm doing a whole other thing.

yeah, it kinda is? I mean, that's who I "was" for about a decade -- though unless it was stupid hot I would keep these things in the pocket of my coat/leather jacket -- for many years I had a chain wallet, even. It was definitely a time when I had a significant amount of gender dysphoria ... though more like confusion and other things that I'm not going to get into but ... it definitely highlighted the differences between mens and womens clothing that I think I ranted about 10 years ago on ilx, lol.

sarahell, Wednesday, 24 July 2019 03:39 (four years ago) link

I got this oversized kelly green hoodie with thick white pullstrings and have been feeling my billie eilish. I have been wearing it all the time and just carrying an id and small changepurse in my hoodie pouch when i go out (it's cold here). I love it, you can't even tell if I am wearing a bra or not so I don't.

Yerac, Wednesday, 24 July 2019 16:23 (four years ago) link

lol

“Think twice about everything you want to put in your bag,” said Ben Nickel-D’Andrea, who writes about flying first-class with his husband, Jon Nickel-D’Andrea, at No Mas Coach!, part of the BoardingArea blogger network. The jet-setting couple once flew to Morocco for nine days with only carry-on bags and backpacks. “Fully get rid of the ‘just in case I need it’ category,” he said. “If and when you need it, you can buy it.”

Well sure. I went to Portugal for 8 days with a carry-on suitcase and a backpack too, including a lot of food. Where's MY New York Times article?

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 24 July 2019 17:45 (four years ago) link

I had a 35L "city" backpack and my purse for 17 days in France this month. I had to do laundry once. I lost my comb halfway through though.

Yerac, Wednesday, 24 July 2019 17:48 (four years ago) link

F had to carry home my wine though in his carry on.

Yerac, Wednesday, 24 July 2019 17:50 (four years ago) link

It's interesting that it took 2 people to give the nyt those packing tips.

Yerac, Wednesday, 24 July 2019 17:55 (four years ago) link

Anyone else have endometriosis??

This is a special kind of hell. I just had surgery to get it scraped off and it was on my lungs. They couldn't get it all.

homosexual II, Thursday, 25 July 2019 00:20 (four years ago) link

That Cut piece is so weird, like, is this an American thing, that men carry nothing?

In London, especially on public transport, the bags of men are a constant nuisance. A few briefcases (briefcases have evolved to have a strap over the shoulder these days), loads of messenger bag/record bag type things, and the ever present BACKPACK. Seriously, it's easier to count the men on London transport that do not carry bags. And yes, the bags come attached with all the baggage of masculinity and its discontents - the size thing (they're supposed to take them off their backs and put them on the floor between their legs, to drive home the point - but often they don't) - the whole thing about never, ever, ever paying attention to other people's space, and just swinging your backpack around and other people (especially anyone who doesn't look like a cis man) is expected to jump out the way and adjust themselves to the size of your enourmous backpack.

The issue is not about preparedness, the problem is entitlement. Mens bags, in London, are another way for men to take up space intended for others. (Bags sprawled out across adjacent seats at rush hour.)

What I always find weird about these thinkpieces and their resultant discussion - where someone notes A Difference between Male-Coded Behaviour and Female-Coded Behaviour (whether it's carrying bags, or language, or occupying space, or cleaning up messes) is this assumption, that because the Male-Coded Behaviour connotes Status, that the solution is for 'women' to start emmulating the male-coded behaviour?

Weirdly, the title on the tab is "If men carried purses, would they clean up?" Generally, isn't cleaning up after yourself a good thing, a sign of maturity and consideration of others?

On the piece itself, it's "Men know it's better to carry nothing". How is it better to carry nothing? If you spill your coffee, is it good to just leave it, because someone else will *always* clean up your messes, or just not give a damn about whether someone else sits in it, because being free, and unencumbered (and inconsiderate and overentitled) is ... such an amazingly good thing?

This is completely weird, how a piece about "wouldn't it be good if everyone cleaned up after themselves, not just those classed as women" gets turned around into "carrying less is good". Anyway!

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 25 July 2019 08:30 (four years ago) link

Endometriosis is supposed to be the most painful thing on earth, like, worse than kidney stones.

(For a while, they thought I had it, but 'luckily' it was 'just' fibroids.)

I'm sorry, that sounds really unpleasant and shit.

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 25 July 2019 08:31 (four years ago) link

Generally, isn't cleaning up after yourself a good thing, a sign of maturity and consideration of others?

OTOH, delegating things to other people is a classic masculine virtue. And by "virtue," I mean power play.

Today I am wearing a much "girlier" dress (pink and green gingham) than I am accustomed to. And I am doing because of the *possibility* that I will see That Man from my office building's gym at the ice cream social the building is holding this afternoon. Who says change is an intrinsic good?

Anne Hedonia (j.lu), Thursday, 25 July 2019 13:16 (four years ago) link

I'm a special case who has endometriosis but NO pain. It's weird.

homosexual II, Thursday, 25 July 2019 14:59 (four years ago) link

That sounds terrible even without the pain. How did you find out about it?

Yerac, Thursday, 25 July 2019 15:01 (four years ago) link

The whole underlying reason men won't clean anything up is a whole other grander issue that I think deserves it's own library.

Yerac, Thursday, 25 July 2019 15:04 (four years ago) link

On the piece itself, it's "Men know it's better to carry nothing". How is it better to carry nothing? If you spill your coffee, is it good to just leave it, because someone else will *always* clean up your messes, or just not give a damn about whether someone else sits in it, because being free, and unencumbered (and inconsiderate and overentitled) is ... such an amazingly good thing?

This is completely weird, how a piece about "wouldn't it be good if everyone cleaned up after themselves, not just those classed as women" gets turned around into "carrying less is good". Anyway!

This is food for thought, thanks for that.

Maybe a good framing for thinking about "preparedness" and the sometimes-burdensome role of having and providing solutions, is...the community can support the individual, for a changing value of "individual," because sometimes you need a tissue and sometimes you have a tissue. Is it fair to say that tension is generated when certain groups of individuals are always benefitting and never providing?

But I definitely wouldn't get mad at women who are typically fixers for everyone else, getting to feel however they feel when experiencing the benefits of not accepting that role. I don't think that's the same as saying, "It's good to be served by others without being accountable to them."

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 25 July 2019 16:39 (four years ago) link

That Cut piece is so weird, like, is this an American thing, that men carry nothing?

Tbh most Americans drive cars so they can have several suitcases of stuff in there at no inconvenience to themselves.

But in my experience in NYC, sure, lots of men carry a backpack or a briefcase or even, among certain demographics, a tote bag. But some men carry nothing, where as you NEVER see a woman with no bag(s) at all. Wow. Like ever. Wait now I'm going to have to look more intentionally when I'm on transit!

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 25 July 2019 16:44 (four years ago) link

OTOH, delegating things to other people is a classic masculine virtue. And by "virtue," I mean power play.

idk, i feel like it is, and it isn't? Because another classic masculine virtue is the "I am going to do everything myself because I am the hero and no one does things as well as me" ... the opposite of delegating. It's actually something that came up in conversation with a friend about a cis-male colleague ... the context was changing organizational behavior and structure based on a "dismantling white supremacy" framework (i think in orbit also read the source text) ... that also is totally relevant to most power imbalances in terms of cis-white-men and members of marginalized groups (though also, power imbalances in general -- I have seen it go on between cis white men, I have seen it go on between women, with no men in the mix).

sarahell, Thursday, 25 July 2019 21:49 (four years ago) link

Anyway, the backstory with the "dismantling white supremacy" checklist text -- my friend had told me about their issues with this organization, where this guy is more or less the person in charge. And I thought, well, they do have a point. Maybe I can find something "official" that has concrete tasks and stuff -- kinda like a checklist with tips and stuff -- that we (the people in the organization, which includes the friend) could address, so it isn't just "this person being negative and complaining" -- so some other unrelated friend had posted this document, and I was like, "Oh, I think this is good. Because the friend who complained also has issues w/r/t race with the organization" ... like this will be something everyone could accept as being useful. ... So, then ... my friend sends the document to the cis-male colleague ... and he gets super defensive. Basically, he responds in the stereotypically bad cis-white male way. .... And I was super angry. #1 because this guy was a dick. #2 because he was a dick in exactly the way my friend expected he would be a dick, and I had been in the habit of defending him in the "he's not that bad" type way #3 because it's standard human behavior, regardless of gender -- like the opposite of trying to be "our best selves" that is one of the goals of a certain movement in social justice circles. ...

Anyway, I forget who (many years ago i think) mentioned wearing bike shorts under dresses in the summer to avoid thigh chafing ... thank you, wonderful ilx femme, I have put this into practice, and it is great.

sarahell, Thursday, 25 July 2019 21:59 (four years ago) link

oh the friend in this story is a genderqueer POC

sarahell, Thursday, 25 July 2019 22:00 (four years ago) link

I’m at the point where I wear bike shorts under skirts and dresses all the time if I’m not wearing tights — apparently kids do it and afaict I’m doing it too. Even though it means wearing another garment, I feel so much more free! Having my undies out feels definitively not-good unless I’m at home chilling.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 25 July 2019 22:08 (four years ago) link

I am unable to locate a specific article but it was basically about how men are able (willing) to delegate/manage in the workplace but completely suffer from mind paralysis when it comes to their household which is why women have that work fall on them.

Yerac, Thursday, 25 July 2019 22:10 (four years ago) link

I almost bought some of those thigh chafing bands that kind of look like garters but then thought they would be annoying if they didn't stay up. xpost

Yerac, Thursday, 25 July 2019 22:11 (four years ago) link

xp - in terms of my work experience, the best/most frequent delegators tend to be women.

sarahell, Thursday, 25 July 2019 22:18 (four years ago) link

my experience has been that men tell subordinates what to do, and women ask for help

Un Poco Loco Moco (rushomancy), Friday, 26 July 2019 00:12 (four years ago) link

But I definitely wouldn't get mad at women who are typically fixers for everyone else, getting to feel however they feel when experiencing the benefits of not accepting that role. I don't think that's the same as saying, "It's good to be served by others without being accountable to them."

― There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 25 July 2019 16:39 (yesterday) link

OK, sure, I get what you're saying here. Like, "I refuse to be placed in the mummy/nanny/caretaker role by default" is a really powerful assertion.

Honestly, it's not about whether man and/or women or anyone else can or cannot delegate or manage, it comes down to whether one views domestic labour as work, or something that just magically happens. In an office, it's obvious what is Work, and therefore it can be viewed as a thing to be managed or distributed. But, because things like bathrooms being cleaned and bins being emptied happen after hours by invisible hands that none of the managers are in charge of managing... (think about how often cleaning services get completely outsourced from organisations - into the realm of Not Work.)

This was going round my social media feeds a few days, about the myth of the Great Male Genius and how the space for him to work is created by the invisible work of others (mostly women).

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/21/woman-greatest-enemy-lack-of-time-themselves

This is an endless debate, that becomes more and more salient with the political crises of our time. "We" have always, since the dawn of thinking, treated the most pressing political issue as "Who governs?" It isn't. The most pressing political issue has become "Who cleans up?" which is salient in everything from the micro of who takes on household domestic labour, to the global, from Flint's water supply to Global Warming:

https://itsherfactory.substack.com/p/who-cleans-up-vs-who-governs-pt-1

(If someone thinks that 'who cleans up?' is an unimportant question because it's always 'someone else' then frankly that person is not fit to govern.)

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Friday, 26 July 2019 12:55 (four years ago) link

(think about how often cleaning services get completely outsourced from organisations - into the realm of Not Work.

oh definitely! The times when I worked in a place that had a cleaning service (as opposed to small biz or non-profit where there was no budget for cleaning, and we had to do it ourselves), it was awkward for me. Like, I definitely have a certain ... embarrassment ... about being in a position where I am being served. On a related "girl things" note, this is why I feel icky about the idea of getting manicures or pedicures or having someone else cut my hair. I am fine at bars and restaurants for the most part, though the places where the servers come around too frequently to ask if I/we want something, sometimes that feels awkward to me, because it feels "too subservient"? Basically, I feel like I focus a lot in my interactions with people/social situations on power imbalances, and I tend not to be comfortable with them in that setting.

sarahell, Friday, 26 July 2019 18:19 (four years ago) link

i am totally the same -- i have never enjoyed -- have even been repulsed by-- the idea, much less the act, of being "pampered" or "taken care of" and i always chalked it up to being a self-reliant only child rather than being a girl but i honestly don't know the real source of many of my eccentricities because there are...so many :-/

i had a real "wow i AM a weird woman in a bar" moment the other day when i was trying to socialize after a show. i'm teetotaling thanks to a recent illness and i had attributed my weird feelings to that at the time. a few days of weird feelings later and i finally realized -- get ready for it -- it's not me, it's not my forced abstinence from alcoholic beverages, it's my period. i wonder what percentage of my total life depressive feelings are attributable to my period. i don't wanna know tbh.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Saturday, 27 July 2019 14:36 (four years ago) link

also fwiw having said that ^^ i would like to publicly state that i have an inclusive view of this thread and womanhood in general. one need not have a uterus (crampy or otherwise) to pass through these doors; i often wish i didn't have one myself :)

sorry to hear about the endometriosis, homo II -- that sounds horrifying tbh and i am glad you are not in pain

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Saturday, 27 July 2019 14:48 (four years ago) link

The way I look at those things - getting manicures, house cleaners, haircuts- is that I’m
A) contributing to the economy
B) paying someone to do something that I’m not good at/don’t have time for/etc, the same way someone pays me to dye clothes, because most people don’t know how/don’t have time to dye their own clothes, even though technically everyone could dye their own clothes

just1n3, Saturday, 27 July 2019 17:03 (four years ago) link

also fwiw having said that ^^ i would like to publicly state that i have an inclusive view of this thread and womanhood in general. one need not have a uterus (crampy or otherwise) to pass through these doors; i often wish i didn't have one myself :)

― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera)

speaking as an inclusively defined woman, i can't see how it would possibly be a problem or delegitimizing for a woman to talk about her period. womanhood is diverse and covers a whole range of experiences; there are hundreds of millions of women who don't menstruate.

the only way it's a sore spot for me is knowing that menstruation has been used by men to delegitimize women since pretty much literally the beginning of history. i'm married to someone with a uterus and menstruation is obviously bullshit, but the misogynist anti-menstruation narrative is so baked into our culture that i daren't mention it.

Un Poco Loco Moco (rushomancy), Saturday, 27 July 2019 18:35 (four years ago) link

Basically, I feel like I focus a lot in my interactions with people/social situations on power imbalances, and I tend not to be comfortable with them in that setting.

Multiply this by about 1000 and you have Britain and the reason we have such inconsistent service (and customers) in our restaurants etc
When I moved to the US I instantly realised what a good server was and why it was important.

kinder, Saturday, 27 July 2019 18:54 (four years ago) link

yeah i am happy accepting services like haircuts bc i need them (though the hair washing is always embarrassing for me, prob bc someone is touching me) and am absolutely not repulsed by the services themselves (i enjoy beautification rituals in general)
it's a weird thing i think i absorbed from my parents but idk why or how or to what purpose

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Saturday, 27 July 2019 19:06 (four years ago) link

I'm so fucking done with periods. (Menopause currently giving me one every 3 weeks at the moment.) I've heard that there is some (off-piste, I forget what it's called) treatment for the menopause which basically involves low dosage T gel, and I'm wondering if I can just figure out the magic words to get the doctors to give me that, both to sort out the menopause shit, and also to avoid having to go through the whole UK gender clinic hell or am I just being a sucker for medicalisation when everyone tells me that T is magical 'make your life better' juice because there is no such thing?

WRT hairdressers and grooming, my main question is, is this person being adequately remunerated for what they are doing? It's one of the few areas where I can be in control of making sure they get properly paid, through tipping or whatever?

Currently having hair woe because I had finally found a stylist who 'got it' (her brother is gay - does drag etc - so she was quite familiar with queer signifiers) and was willing to give me exactly what I asked for. She has now left that salon. I booked an appointment with a different hairdresser, and I had forgotten - it was back to being a *fight* for me to actually get my hair as short as I wanted, have as brutal a clip as I wanted and she kept trying to feminise the haircut (and even asking her to go back and do the shaving a second time to make it right, she still managed to not do what I asked). ARGH. I have found out where the other stylist went, but it's a totally different neighbourhood... if I'm going to go that far to get a haircut, I might as well go into town. People keep telling me to go to Open Barbers in Shoreditch, as they specifically advertise that they *want* to work with queer, trans and gender non-conforming people. Maybe I should try that?

I may be unattractive in many other ways, but for the past 2 solid years, I have had Good Hair, which has made such a difference to how I feel about my gender and everything else. I just can't face going back to having to fight to get what I want on my head any more. What do I do?

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Saturday, 27 July 2019 20:22 (four years ago) link

Go to Open Barbers, they might be entirely new to you but at least they’ll get where you’re coming from & be able to sort you out properly.

gyac, Saturday, 27 July 2019 22:04 (four years ago) link

i would like to publicly state that i have an inclusive view of this thread and womanhood in general. one need not have a uterus (crampy or otherwise) to pass through these doors

agreed! also, some menstrual problems are related to hormones -- and a trans friend pointed out on fb -- some trans/non-binary people actually have/are taking these hormones, so -- anyway, welcome rushomancy to this long-running thread

sarahell, Sunday, 28 July 2019 17:23 (four years ago) link

Oh aside from physical pain of cramps and dramatic inconvenience of blood flow, my real period probs are all hormonal. Intense and hormonal.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Sunday, 28 July 2019 17:26 (four years ago) link

Technically, this is the "no boys" thread? I don't know that it's ever been about ~womanhood~, big tent or little tent. Just a place free of cis masculinity.

Many, many trans people *have* uteri, and how we deal with them is all over the place. I'm tired of pretending like 'never talk about uteri or having them' is some trans-dictate. It's funny how no one ever goes on the Gays thread and tells them that it's transphobic to talk about dicks all the time. But hey. It's almost as if ~trans discourse~ can be warped to disparage cis women for failure to attain impossible, contradictory perfection just as easily as ~feminist discourse~ can.

Also, I had forgotten, how having hair styled like this exposes one to all kinds of delightful homophobia on the Tube. I thought we left that shit in 1987, but it turns out not. I'm so tired. Or maybe that's just blood loss or hormones from PMT.

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Monday, 29 July 2019 07:21 (four years ago) link

As if the world is trolling me, this popped up in the newspaper this morning:

https://www.theguardian.com/global/2019/jul/28/looking-for-mr-t-the-politicisation-of-testosterone-and-toxic-masuclinity

It just got me thinking about how differently hormones are politicised.

I think that most people on this thread could read that article, and understand that the discourse discussed in the piece (the whole "men are being feminised by losing T and this is a crisis because ~being like women~ is the Worst Thing Ever" philosophy)is deeply, intrinsically misogynist. Right? But I rarely see this kind of testosterone/male-genitals/manhood/masculinity discourse problematised for how transphobic it is. Coz it really is.

Yes, I see this internal policing kick in, when AFAB people talk about hormones and periods, and how that sometimes leads us to have feelings about our bodies, our selves / genders, or even 'womanhood' in general (whether feeling connected to femaleness or disconnected through dysphoria), that we immediately kick in and make some kind of trans-inclusive statement.

Do you ever see (cis) men doing this, when they engage in testosterone-slash-manhood-discourse?

I don't know which way round I feel about this. Like, obviously, it's GOOD to be trans inclusive, and it's actually good to check in with those around us and make sure trans and non-binary people don't feel excluded by body talk. But it starts to feel like extra labour expected of the AFABs that is never expected of the AMABs, when they start discoursing about the old testosterone.

Sigh. I have plenty of other interests, but this is the only one I ever seem to talk about on ILX any more. That kinda sucks.

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Monday, 29 July 2019 12:24 (four years ago) link

Anyway, I'll stop killing the thread now. Bye!

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Monday, 29 July 2019 12:24 (four years ago) link

I mean, it would be great if that extra step of making others welcome and un-gendering the conversation were done by all people, specifically AMAB and AFAB, but as far as ilx convos go, I'd be shocked to see that level of awareness in those spaces--so I guess you could say it's not "expected" of them but that's more of a condemnation than anything. Also I was off ilx over the weekend so I don't know where that thread has gone but I'll check it out.

I've been thinking a lot about service industry dynamics and the purchasing of care lately (particularly while getting my nails done ftr lol). First of all, I like being touched (obv with consent) so that part doesn't squick me out/is pleasurable instead of distressing, so I don't experience that type of discomfort. But I used to be more embarrassed by the perceived status & power imbalance, and unfortunately it manifested as me being so uncomfortable that I rushed and mumbled and didn't look people in the eye and connect w them as people because I was so in my own feelings.

The thing is, I'm not sure that particular spasm of discomfort looks any different to the professional service provider than active disdain? Anyway, idk when exactly but my shame and discomfort eased and went away somewhere in there, and without that paralysis it was obvious that stylists and nail techs and wait-staff and etc are SKILLED PROFESSIONALS, and their work has value! And it's so much nicer (for me) to be talking and joking with someone and knowing them as a person and their life and their kids or whatever, and also praising their work AND ALSO accepting the gift of caring and comfort that they're trained to give, which has value because comfort and good-feeling are important for our health and connectedness!

Also I realized that *I* was creating the idea that their work was shameful or low-status because it involved some kind of service or taking care of physical bodies, and that was on me. There's a lot to unpack there about caring and bodies and women and low-status groups and cultural frameworks that should be inspected a lot more closely but I'm gonna leave it for now.

Complicating all of this, though, is that there may often be a language barrier between the customer and the professional, which really discourages communication and community, and can really add to the embarrassment etc of trying to navigate an already fraught experience of service.

I was thinking about this while getting a pedicure next to a nail tech who was getting her OWN pedicure from one of her colleagues and really enjoying it, and all of us joking around, and then later while working on my fingernails, talking w my manicurist about our families and death and loss and relationships and men and lots of personal stuff. Admittedly this kind of thing was/is harder when I went to salons where the staff were less English-fluent but I've still been in plenty of, for instance, Chinese-speaking salon environments where other customers would greet the staff by name, ask about their kids, and just be natural.

Maybe as a midwesterner those kinds of really flowing and public exchanges are just not my natural habitat lol. But I'm learning.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Monday, 29 July 2019 14:08 (four years ago) link

Hmmm. My take on this is that there are still a large number of women who do define womanhood in primarily biological terms (i.e. trans-exclusive), enough that it perhaps feels necessary to make the inclusive disclaimers? (Personally I do assume inclusivity unless I see overtly exclusive behaviour.)

Much as I hate to be a stereotype I am definitely a trans/NB person who seems to only ever talk about trans/NB shit. I guess I can accept that about myself.

Un Poco Loco Moco (rushomancy), Monday, 29 July 2019 14:17 (four years ago) link

I got the best cake recipe once when I was having a pedicure. I've only ever had two pedicures because I'm a massive baby who gets really ticklish and starts squirming and laughing when people touch my feet.

Ugh that T article. "“Society is trying to pigeonhole men almost into behaving like women.”". What does that even mean? Actually I don't care.

kinder, Monday, 29 July 2019 14:22 (four years ago) link

Yeah I only paid the glancing attention to that mess.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Monday, 29 July 2019 14:36 (four years ago) link

My take on this is that there are still a large number of women who do define womanhood in primarily biological terms (i.e. trans-exclusive), enough that it perhaps feels necessary to make the inclusive disclaimers?

My point being, given the astonishingly large amount of men who define *manhood* (let alone womanhood) in primarily biological terms, why are the AMABs not expected to ever make the same disclaimers?

Never mind, I know why.

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Monday, 29 July 2019 14:52 (four years ago) link

yeah, the article hedges its bets in a v annoying way. It's a 99% made up fascist put-down! But maybe they have a point after all? Who could possibly say! Let me interview an actual associate professor without giving her title, and then some fitness bro who says "pffft ivory tower bitches, amirite? SCIENCE may think you're perfectly normal but maybe you're a WEENIE, PS give me money"

a passing spacecadet, Monday, 29 July 2019 18:45 (four years ago) link

also I find haircuts uncomfortable but mainly because I feel like an alien who doesn't know how to make smalltalk or dress/do makeup/do my hair and whom all the fashionable well-turned-out assistants probably think is totally gross to have to touch. BUT now I admit this is a clumsy backward reading of the power dynamic and I owe it to them to be less diffident and weird in the seat and I feel bad for not thinking it through sooner. Thank you!

(I do try to tip OK anyway! well idk I always tip but maybe not v generously, but I go to unfancy suburban places who seem effusively pleased/surprised to get any tip - but maybe that's another power dynamic ritual and I should tip better also)

a passing spacecadet, Monday, 29 July 2019 18:52 (four years ago) link

Sigh. I have plenty of other interests, but this is the only one I ever seem to talk about on ILX any more. That kinda sucks.

― Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Monday, July 29, 2019 5:24 AM (six hours ago)

is it just that the way you want to talk about the other interests / the things you want to say -- it just isn't worth it, or doesn't feel possible?

Much as I hate to be a stereotype I am definitely a trans/NB person who seems to only ever talk about trans/NB shit. I guess I can accept that about myself.

― Un Poco Loco Moco (rushomancy), Monday, July 29, 2019 7:17 AM (four hours ago)

you also talk about movies though, yeah?

sarahell, Monday, 29 July 2019 18:54 (four years ago) link

(also sorry for sidestepping the gender discussion which is interesting but I felt a little unqualified to wade into)

Hi Branwell! Welcome back and please do talk about other things!

Hi rushomancy too and likewise, I enjoy your music lists fwiw although I am p. uncultured and have usually only heard of 10% of the things on them

a passing spacecadet, Monday, 29 July 2019 19:02 (four years ago) link

In terms of salons I believe the rule is that if someone is in business for themselves and they are pocketing the whole cost of your cut then you don't have to tip. But most stylists "rent" a chair from an owner or business, and in that case the tip is meant to be compensation for them over and above what percentage or flat fee they pay or are paid by their employer.

Although now that I say that, after I followed her through 3 other salons, my longtime stylist now co-owns the salon where she works along with a few other ppl and I still tip her so...shrug emoji.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Monday, 29 July 2019 20:40 (four years ago) link

OH LOOK IT'S AN ILX THREAD ABOUT TIPPING soz

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Monday, 29 July 2019 20:41 (four years ago) link

ha the girl I had a crush on in High School runs a hair salon in Brooklyn.

sarahell, Monday, 29 July 2019 23:05 (four years ago) link

you also talk about movies though, yeah?

― sarahell

i don't think so? i haven't really seen a lot of movies lately. i do talk about music sometimes but i seriously have barely been listening to anything in the last two months - just haven't had the time!

maybe it's just, uh, spotlight effect. i hate feeling like the center of attention :(

Un Poco Loco Moco (rushomancy), Monday, 29 July 2019 23:48 (four years ago) link

i was just writing a message to a friend and the phrase "keep it simple and set yourself free" popped into my head. it was immediately followed by "from the extras that you really don't need"
just like that my thoughts turned into a tampon commercial!

lol

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 17:55 (four years ago) link

can we talk about "extra" ... as it is tends to be applied to non cis-men ... in terms of behavior, etc? As in "she/you are so extra" relatedly "too much" ... I feel a bit dorky for saying this but, (not too much really) a lot of my "pop culture" awareness comes through astrology memes. ... So there's a lot of "extra" around now because it's Leo season. ...

sarahell, Tuesday, 30 July 2019 18:24 (four years ago) link

I dunno; it's more like fucken politics infects everything. It's not even possible to have a cute little conversation about movies or music without this stuff coming up in some way or another. And it's the old Melissa McEwan thing of... keep it to yourself and stuff it down inside you so that you get endlessly more angry/depressed or... BRING IT UP AND RUIN THE WHOLE AFTERNOON!!!! It's an impossible choice.

Been watching a lot of movies about Berlin Gay Culture, from classics like Taxi Zum Klo to more modern takes like Mein Wunderbares West Berlin and Desire Will Set You Free, because Yay! Gay! and Yay! Germans! Except, then, watching a film like Mein Wunderbares West Berlin, honestly, it has more men named Wolfgang in it, than it has AFAB voices. You have to ignore that, to enjoy the film. (Desire Will Set You Free, OTOH, was a cheesy, cheesy film, but genuinely made an effort to have a wonderfully full range of genders.) I can no longer discuss films without noticing the gender imbalances in them.

I got Gentleman Jack on DVD, like wow, how can this not be great? Period lesbians in period costumes, woooo! #RelevantToMyInterests or what? But... the gender stuff was handled in a really interesting way, yes. It was really gratifying to see a queer, gender non-conforming AFAB handled in a sensitive and multi-dimensional light. But... OF COURSE because this is a British Costume Drama, they have to shove the Downton Abbey style Tory Agenda Bullshit right down your craw. Landlords and Mine Owners are GOOD! The only people who support Chartism or redistribution of property are bad, stinking, wifebeating alcoholics. I can no longer watch television without noticing the tacit political agendas in them.

I joined another music forum, for a German Experimental Group I am particularly fond of. I love this band more than is reasonable or maybe even healthy. But the overwhelming culture of Music Messageboard Dudes and the endless performance of cis-boy fandom of list-making and thing-collecting was just so oppressive and ... the leader of this group is famously bisexual and quite queer and playfully genderfuck (his partner flat out told me "he hates cis masculinity even more than YOU do!") ... and so those are the interpretive readings that I bring to his work, and yet the blank hostility from the threatened wall of $50 Box Set Men Proper Fans was ... well, it was really off-putting and unfun.

It's like... I dunno. I try to enjoy the things I enjoy with the awareness that ~everything is problematic~ and there is no Perfect. And yet this shit keeps coming up and slapping you in the face because it's impossible to live outside this system.

The good news is, though, that this past year I've started a Queer Theory reading group, where myself and a few people who do enjoy interrogating this stuff on a deeper basis CAN dig into it and go through it. That makes me feel a lot less crazy. And I have a really supportive work environment. (This is going to sound really ridiculous, but the Sys Admin has had the comic Dilbert displaying on the front page of the IT team's intranet. Yesterday, the comic was so openly transphobic that I brought it up with my boss, and my boss actually made the sys admin take it down saying it was not the culture that our organisation wanted to promote - which felt like something good.)

But then, every time I come back on ILX, I just feel this constant... *anxiety* that I'm going to be ripped to shreds if I venture outside this thread. (And often even on this thread, TBH. Like, anxiety does not discern.) It's just easier not to engage at all.

Sometimes I just wanna be really shallow and be like clothes! haircuts! memes! Y'know?

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 31 July 2019 08:00 (four years ago) link

I don't know if it's been brought up on this thread, but I really would recommend everyone on this thread read Down Girl: The Logic of Misogyny by Kate Manne.

It's one of the most smart and clear-sighted analyses I've ever read, about what misogyny is, and what it isn't, and how it functions on so many different levels. And answers the question: what it's for.

It's such an amazing book, and I've seen it get so little traction anywhere. I mean, yeah, it's written in a slightly dry academic tone rather than a pop culture tone - but I suspect that's so it would be taken seriously, as the rigorous work it is, and not dismissed as light ~pop feminism~. I just think it's a really important book and I wish more people would read it.

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 31 July 2019 08:04 (four years ago) link

It's 35 minutes later, and I've only just realised that that question about films wasn't even directed at me.

Because: autism. Duh.

But I wish I could assuage the anxiety that other people won't recognise, "Branwell gets this shit wrong, because autism" and not have this wave of anxiety about how people are going to assume it's because I'm an asshole and inconsiderate and self-obsessed.

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 31 July 2019 08:49 (four years ago) link

But... OF COURSE because this is a British Costume Drama, they have to shove the Downton Abbey style Tory Agenda Bullshit right down your craw. Landlords and Mine Owners are GOOD! The only people who support Chartism or redistribution of property are bad, stinking, wifebeating alcoholics. I can no longer watch television without noticing the tacit political agendas in them.

I adore the show Madame Secretary but it is relentlessly "centrist"-pandering and mindlessly pro-military service. It can still make me cry in 10 seconds flat though.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 31 July 2019 13:15 (four years ago) link

It's 35 minutes later, and I've only just realised that that question about films wasn't even directed at me.

sincerely sorry! it was meant for rushomancy, and on top of that, I had them confused with someone else entirely ... but the anxiety at feeling like a failure at communicating and understanding is "real" ... and I feel like, in general, it's worse for AFAB people because of social conditioning.

sarahell, Wednesday, 31 July 2019 20:46 (four years ago) link

Sometimes I just wanna be really shallow and be like clothes! haircuts! memes! Y'know?

Absolutely! I think this is why I have gotten super into astrology memes. There was something I read recently about astrology memes and queer culture and anti-hierarchical structure (maybe) that was gratifying.

this might have been it ...
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/06/astrology-memes-unite-micro-targeting-and-celestial-mythos.html

sarahell, Wednesday, 31 July 2019 20:49 (four years ago) link

I adore the show Madame Secretary but it is relentlessly "centrist"-pandering and mindlessly pro-military service. It can still make me cry in 10 seconds flat though.

― There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, July 31, 2019 1:15 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

Yeah, this is totally it. Like, it's way, way sub-sub-sub- "Your Fave Is Problematic" (because frankly everything is problematic) but it's just the constant realisation how deeply these kinds of narratives are interwoven through anything which has managed to jump through all the hoops to get on television. It's complicated. Like, how to turn off the internal critic long enough to just enjoy a dumb show as relaxing entertainment.

(I generally don't really like television as a medium, *because* I find it emotionally manipulative. Like, if I'm reading something in a book, I can underline and write "fuck your patriarchal assumptions" in the margin and carry on reading, feeling like I've expressed my disagreement. But television is really enveloping and specifically goes at provoking emotional reactions... but that's an argument for another day.)

Absolutely! I think this is why I have gotten super into astrology memes. There was something I read recently about astrology memes and queer culture and anti-hierarchical structure (maybe) that was gratifying.

― sarahell, Wednesday, July 31, 2019 8:49 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

In *theory*, I really like the idea of astrology as resistant culture and queer culture? And I always pay attention to what people say when they talk about astrology, because when they say "I'm like ~this~, because I'm a Taurus..." they are giving you the gift of information about themselves? It's good to discover how people view themselves, and find out how they want to be treated, and saying "my sign is like..." is a low stress way to express that.

But I also hate astrology because every single astrology meme treats my sign like the absolute asshole of the zodiac and all I can think every time I see one is "fuck you, go swive" (of course playing right into the stereotype, ugh)

((Also, I just have to post the meme that ~Economics is just Astrology for white men~ because it makes me laugh.))

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 1 August 2019 07:23 (four years ago) link

(Thanks for being understanding. I'm not in the greatest place at the moment, and could really just do with friendly chatter.)

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 1 August 2019 07:24 (four years ago) link

But I also hate astrology because every single astrology meme treats my sign like the absolute asshole of the zodiac and all I can think every time I see one is "fuck you, go swive" (of course playing right into the stereotype, ugh)

I don't really do astrology but that might be partly because I was born ~on the cusp~ of two signs and everyone who has learnt this fact has enthusiastically agreed that I had all the many bad aspects of both but was clearly largely the latter sign because that is the sign for stubborn rude selfish assholes like me

(me and my birthdaymate Hitler, yay)

this is now extra funny because iirc - sorry for .xls-ing, hope you don't mind but I'll modreq deletion if you do - you're the former of those two signs (and the one most British horoscopes think I am, whereas most American ones put me as the latter) so it seems either way there is no escape from my inherent star-ordained assholishness

btw nearly everyone I've ever dated also had their birthday on the 20th or 21st of the month, maybe we ~cusp people~ are a thing

a passing spacecadet, Thursday, 1 August 2019 09:32 (four years ago) link

Oh, don't worry about it! It's fine! You and I have known each other since the early days of ILX when happy birthday threads were a regular thing. (Another plus for astrology - I am shit at remembering birthdays but good at remembering star signs!)

I guess this is the thing about being born under one of the asshole star signs, is, y'know - asshole to whom? I tend to get along with the principled (stubborn), forthright and honest (rude) and well self-contained (selfish) asshole signs just fine. You always know where you stand with either your sign or mine. Unlike some of those more ~people skills~ signs where they will tell you whatever they think you want to hear to your face, and something completely different behind your back, haha. See you can make this go any way you like.

(it is weird that for a long period of my life, 2/3 of my close friends were either born within a couple days of my own birthday, or in the same 3 days of Leo.)

The annoying thing is that "what 80s band is your starsign?" meme that goes round regularly like clockwork and one of my close friends always reblogs it because her starsign is Bowie and she's a massive Bowie fan. But my starsign is a really shitty band I can't stand. (And they stick Kraftwerk under some random sign, when Kraftwerk was founded by an Aries and a Leo, and the band itself is an Aries based on its foundation date? Like, do your research, Astrology meme fans!)

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 1 August 2019 12:08 (four years ago) link

xpost i am birthday mates with Trump so I feel you, spacecadet.

Yerac, Thursday, 1 August 2019 12:28 (four years ago) link

(me and my birthdaymate Hitler, yay)

― a passing spacecadet

if it makes you feel better you can think of your birthdaymate as dank nugs

my particular brand of questionable assignation of personality traits is the myers briggs type inventory - so far as i can tell it's not actually more meaningful or accurate than horoscope or blood type but it's useful for self-stereotyping. (i read once that someone did come up with a scientifically valid way of grouping personality types, but all they managed to determine from it was that teenage boys are assholes.) what i like about it is that i can (and did) change my myers briggs type from the asshole (the one they always gave me was woodrow wilson, i guess because hitler would be a bad portent) to a non-asshole type; astrologically i'm stuck being the asshole, not even on the cusp

Abigail, Wife of Preserved Fish (rushomancy), Thursday, 1 August 2019 12:44 (four years ago) link

I'm not getting into an argument about MBTI (I don't think it's rubbish - just extremely misused, i.e. it has no business being anywhere near an HR department, but it's quite fun to think about as a tool for self exploration or understanding) buuuuttt...

No way is INTJ the Hitler of MBTI. ENTJ is the Hitler. (Haha, we had to do it for work, and my boss got ENTJ and he is the least Hitler person you ever met, so... as I said, useless for HR purposes.)

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 1 August 2019 12:55 (four years ago) link

The cusp is not a thing.

Also, don't all signs come off as assholes in astrology memes???

tokyo rosemary, Thursday, 1 August 2019 13:01 (four years ago) link

I am absolutely nothing like what my sign says I’m supposed to be like and so I think it’s all bullshit but still part of me wants to find out I have a moon inside a cave or something that explains it all. I’m a Capricorn btw.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Thursday, 1 August 2019 13:28 (four years ago) link

what does it mean if you have no desire (maybe even negative desire) to self-stereotype via lighthearted or misused-by-HR-depts methods?
am i the hitler of astrology?!?!?! :)

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 1 August 2019 13:31 (four years ago) link

Astrology being entirely socially constructed, A Cusp can be A Thing because people meaningfully believe, and act as if it is A Thing. Ergo, A Cusp is actually A Thing.

I think, LL, as with anything, that it's fine to not like a thing. And it's fine to not want to participate in a thing. So long as it stays there! (However, as with many things, if a bunch of people are using that thing to facilitate social interaction, and to share observations and social information about themselves and others - it's churlish to tell others not to do so, or to try to discredit the thing. It's the latter that makes someone a Hitler of a thing; not the mere not-liking of the thing.)

However, I am an INTP, so I analyse the fuck out of absolutely anything. ;)

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 1 August 2019 13:41 (four years ago) link

I have had a couple of gemini parties in my life because I realized I had become good friends with several geminis. I should see what Trump is up to next year.

Yerac, Thursday, 1 August 2019 13:44 (four years ago) link

Def not trying to stop the enjoyment of anything. I’m not Hitler yaaaay

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 1 August 2019 14:06 (four years ago) link

Oof I'm complicated on astrology but more or less take it as Branwell said

And I always pay attention to what people say when they talk about astrology, because when they say "I'm like ~this~, because I'm a Taurus..." they are giving you the gift of information about themselves?

...and one of the things they're telling me about themselves is that they are willing to be identified as a person who at least superficially "believes" in astrology. As an ex-evangelical I'm both programmed to reject astrology as the devil's doorway and also I'm kind of allergic to any discussion of unseen forces or whatever? Sooo all of that is on me.

LL, I get your vibe.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 1 August 2019 14:10 (four years ago) link

The devil's doorway sounds like fun!

tokyo rosemary, Thursday, 1 August 2019 14:19 (four years ago) link

We took Meyers-Briggs tests for a class in college, and I would always get different results.

Except for I, always an I.

tokyo rosemary, Thursday, 1 August 2019 14:21 (four years ago) link

I always thought it was Acid House that was the devil's doorway?

http://factmag-images.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/acidhousetriptohell-4.12.2013.jpg

Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 1 August 2019 14:21 (four years ago) link

AMAZING.

Everything is the devil's doorway to Evangelicals. Yoga, meditation, masturbation, college.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 1 August 2019 14:27 (four years ago) link

I refuse to be categorized, that’s part of my most stubborn stubbornness. Shrug!

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 1 August 2019 14:30 (four years ago) link

Branwell, I bought Down Girl a few months ago, but it is on my ever increasing pile of books to read.

tokyo rosemary, Thursday, 1 August 2019 14:37 (four years ago) link

We took Meyers-Briggs tests for a class in college, and I would always get different results. Except for I, always an I.

Same here, always an I, but iirc the others are usually close to 50/50 and fall one way or the other depending on my mood and the phase of the moon.

My line manager wants to send the team (~10 people) on some not-quite-MBTI personality test so we can "learn how to work together better". That sounds nice*, but half of me thinks they're basically meaningless or at least measure something barely relevant to "how to work together", and half of me is scared it'll confirm all my character flaws and it will become an accepted truth of the office that I'm a terrible person who will ruin everything and should be micromanaged and disdained.

* tbh it doesn't even sound nice

Also even apart from the end result I'm scared the quiz will have lots of questions like "I immediately start work on all my tasks and work very efficiently at them until they are done" and, haha, uh... it's a trap, right? Who gets to see these?

So yes, keep these things away from work and HR and "teambuilding exercises" and hiring decisions, please.

(Some smart and good ilxors once recommended the book by Martin Seligman on learned helplessness, which I fear is relevant to my life situation, except one of the early chapters was about him applying his theories to a personality test used by some big company to make hiring + firing decisions, and I immediately disliked the guy...)

a passing spacecadet, Thursday, 1 August 2019 14:55 (four years ago) link

every single astrology meme treats my sign like the absolute asshole of the zodiac and all I can think every time I see one is "fuck you, go swive"

if you go deep into the whole chart (as opposed to just the sun sign), it can be more interesting or liberatory or just give people like me, who can be analytical and nerdy, more stuff to be analytical and nerdy about ... and that's not even getting into synastry. Basically, I am "absolute asshole" rising, but my sun sign is "the worst person ever" ... but one of the best types of astrology memes are the ones that critique overly simplistic astrology memes: like Aries --> Angry! Angry! Angry!; Taurus --> Food ...

sarahell, Thursday, 1 August 2019 15:47 (four years ago) link

It's good to discover how people view themselves, and find out how they want to be treated, and saying "my sign is like..." is a low stress way to express that.

I think this is really astute! ... And relatedly, I feel like, one of the challenging things about working through your own issues/inner conflicts is being able to find language you feel comfortable with using about them. All the clickbait about young people feeling more comfortable communicating in emoji makes me think of this as well. And part of me feels like a stereotypical "woo woo Californian" talking about my personal issues in astrological terms, but I also have a tendency to be very "closed off" and a desire to be viewed as "bulletproof," and if in order to deal with shit and not destroy myself, my self-talk is about "my Saturn in Cancer problem" or my "Sun-Moon square aspect" then, that's what it is, for now.

sarahell, Thursday, 1 August 2019 16:20 (four years ago) link

APS, is it the Margerison-McCann Team Management thing?

Hey Branwell, always good to see you here.

kinder, Thursday, 1 August 2019 20:47 (four years ago) link

also APS I have webmailed u

kinder, Thursday, 1 August 2019 21:11 (four years ago) link

ugh using a standardized "personality" test for a job sounds lazy and would make me paranoid.

Yerac, Thursday, 1 August 2019 21:12 (four years ago) link

i had a job use it on me 1x and it did indeed make me paranoid and i filled out the survey accordingly

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 1 August 2019 21:14 (four years ago) link

it's great that even when franklin is doing jack chick-style propaganda he still makes the effort to objectify women, that's a sign of someone who's committed to the total package

branwell thanks for reminding me about ENTJs i tend to forget extroverts (is it that or extravert? XTC has me confused) exist, yes they are definitely hitlers, except for the ones who aren't

when i was 12 i was all down on the J side but starting at about 20 i flipped to being half P and half J

my recent change has been swinging hard (hello jazz thread) from T to F, i'm pretty happy about that one

my company did one of those personality things five years ago, it was before i got there though and the only people who still have them up are people who have been there forever

Abigail, Wife of Preserved Fish (rushomancy), Thursday, 1 August 2019 23:57 (four years ago) link

My line manager wants to send the team (~10 people) on some not-quite-MBTI personality test so we can "learn how to work together better". That sounds nice*, but half of me thinks they're basically meaningless or at least measure something barely relevant to "how to work together", and half of me is scared it'll confirm all my character flaws and it will become an accepted truth of the office that I'm a terrible person who will ruin everything and should be micromanaged and disdained.

Also even apart from the end result I'm scared the quiz will have lots of questions like "I immediately start work on all my tasks and work very efficiently at them until they are done" and, haha, uh... it's a trap, right? Who gets to see these?

― a passing spacecadet, Thursday, August 1, 2019 2:55 PM bookmarkflaglink

I've done at least two of these things. One was, as you describe, full of kind of "I always prioritise my company's interests over my own!!!" type questions - and this was part of the hiring process! They wouldn't even interview people without taking it. So I filled it in as if I were a total sociopath and told their headhunter I really didn't think the company was a good fit for me. (They didn't disagree, but IT people are hard to recruit.)

The other thing was weirder, but ended up being more interesting - I think the company was called 1n$1ghts? (Can't remember what the name of their test was.) It was a much weirder test - you had to pick one out of groups of really nebulously defined words. (1) Convoluted 2) Glutinous 3) Scintillating 4) rhizomatic - pick one, and I'm only half joking) They only measured 2 of the MBTI scales (I vs E and T vs F) and came up with four colours / work styles, which were...

Red - little Hitler
Blue - unfeeling logic robot
Yellow - total drama llama
Green - whiny snowflake

(OK, those weren't the real descriptions but that was kind of the gist.) We did genuinely get something out of it? But I think it was more that our company, and our particular group dynamic, we did find it helpful because people here do seem to *want* to make things better? Oddly, I thought it would be the Reds that I bumped heads with, but I got long fine with all our Reds. (I was Blue with a disturbingly large streak of Red.) But all of the people that had clashed with here, every single one of them was Yellow. And they genuinely had some tips and practices to help you get along with other types? But that is the one and only one case where an MBTI-based thing has helped at work - and honestly, it's much more down to the organisation I work for. But I could easily see it being hell in a different field.

(Then last month we had some stupid crap ~diversity workshop~ thing, and I kid you not - one of my colleagues literally started mansplaining at me in the diversity workshop so I said "OK, this clearly isn't going to do any good at all" and walked out. Win some, lose some.)

I think this is really astute! ... And relatedly, I feel like, one of the challenging things about working through your own issues/inner conflicts is being able to find language you feel comfortable with using about them. All the clickbait about young people feeling more comfortable communicating in emoji makes me think of this as well. And part of me feels like a stereotypical "woo woo Californian" talking about my personal issues in astrological terms, but I also have a tendency to be very "closed off" and a desire to be viewed as "bulletproof," and if in order to deal with shit and not destroy myself, my self-talk is about "my Saturn in Cancer problem" or my "Sun-Moon square aspect" then, that's what it is, for now.

― sarahell, Thursday, August 1, 2019 4:20 PM bookmarkflaglink

Yeah, I don't know if this was Captain Awkward or just therapy, but it was a life-changing realisation. That if someone starts talking about "oh my moon is in Aquarius" or "Mercury is in retrograde!" it is extremely unhelpful to start lecturing them on astronomy. They're giving you information about their feelings in a language that feels comfortable for them. It's OK to ask for a little help, and say "hmm, I don't know any Aquarians, what do they tend to be like?" or slowly start to grok that "Mercury is in Retrograde" means that they are in a bad mood or feel really overwhelmed like everything's going wrong at once. But these are feeling-languages, and you don't come back to feeling-language with Logic Robot answers. Meeting people where they are is important. And often, these languages that are designed for feelings, *are* better at communicating feelings.

one of my colleagues literally started mansplaining at me in the diversity workshop

oh dear .... is he usually insufferable, or is this someone that is normally "one of the good ones"? ...I think the social justice stuff about "sitting with discomfort" regarding privilege, white supremacy, etc. is good, in that it is realistic. That these systemic problems and power imbalances are challenging! Change is awkward. ... Anyway, I have a male colleague that is 95% of the time, a "total comrade" ... but a few weeks back, he got super angry and defensive and did something similar to another colleague.

sarahell, Friday, 2 August 2019 16:49 (four years ago) link

Today I saw that a nursery school friend has opened up a law office down the street from a shop I frequently go to. Should I drop in and say hi? I haven't seen her in nearly 40 years.

tokyo rosemary, Friday, 2 August 2019 18:53 (four years ago) link

Yes! Few things are more tender to me than remembering and being by remembered by someone I knew/knew me as a wee child. This is usually the role of family and if one doesn’t have that, classmates are the next best option! How sweet!

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 2 August 2019 18:56 (four years ago) link

I have ... complicated feelings about people and places from my past.

tokyo rosemary, Saturday, 3 August 2019 01:53 (four years ago) link

me too ... I do not want a #GilroyStrong t-shirt, thanks.

sarahell, Saturday, 3 August 2019 02:10 (four years ago) link

everyone does! i was just thinking that preschool memories have got to be some of the most wholesome, yknow? little teeny kids learning how to share and whatnot.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Saturday, 3 August 2019 02:32 (four years ago) link

I liked pre-school! There were cubby holes, and carpet squares.

ACTUALLY this post made me look up my pre-school by name and I found the founder's obit from 2014 and it's amazing how as a kid I knew NONE of these wonderful things about her but I sure loved going to her pre-school!

https://obits.mlive.com/obituaries/grandrapids/obituary.aspx?n=janet-m-jones&pid=171817480&fhid=25468

A passionate and acknowledged expert in educationally and emotionally nurturing children ages three to six, her nursery school was authoritatively considered by many the finest of its kind in Michigan, providing children a peaceful, happy, innovative, exciting, and ultimately successful learning experience. For Janet, it was personally and professionally always all about each child's personal development. Every educational decision she ever made first included the question, "What would be best for this child?" An active and accomplished artist throughout her life, she spent her early retirement focused on both landscape painting and portraiture, with family and friends the beneficiaries of her talent. And later, even after her Macular Degeneration became pervasive, her artistic capability still shone through. She continued to paint until nearly the very end.

Amazing. The people in your life who are shaping you all the time and you don't even know.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Tuesday, 6 August 2019 13:47 (four years ago) link

two weeks pass...

I'm flying out on holiday tonight, and needed a haircut fast - so I ended up going to the men's barbershop on the high street. To my surprise, the very sweet young Desi man did agree to shave the back of my head - I was honestly expecting to be ma'amed and gently shown the door. But it was a slow morning and he had nothing else to do. But it is so difficult. He kept trying to talk me out of it, and "let me give you a cute fade" and "let me make that pretty for you" and, without outing myself, I tried very hard to pull the old "I'm too OLD to care about being pretty, just shave it please" at which he started with "aw, you're not old!" in a flirty way which is just... I mean, it was sweet and obviously well intentioned. But where is that world where I get to just get a man's haircut without an argument over it?

I'm having a lot of feelings at the moment. It's really complicated. Like, I am really glad that ILX has become a more trans-friendly and welcoming place. And that, for new people coming out now, it looks so... not easy, because coming out is rarely easy, but it looks... relatively drama free.

But, without wanting to rain on anyone else's parade... (that's why I'm saying it on this thread, which feels a lot safer than that thread) but it's bringing up a lot of old, raw, painful memories of how it was when I started this journey, over 5 years ago now, on ILX.

How much resistence I faced, how much people board lawyered and fought for their 'right' to deadname me, how I was accused of all those Trans Stereotypes: that I was trying to fool people; that I was trying to hide something; oh the crazy-shaming, so much crazy-shaming. How many people demanded to know intimate details of stuff I was barely daring to share with my therapist at the time, and certainly wasn't ready to share with hostile strangers - rather than accept what I was asserting - that I was absolutely, completely sure that I no longer wanted to be called by *that* name (though I wasn't even entirely sure what it was yet, that was forcing itself to be born into the life I had struggled to banish it from).

It was such a hellish time, such an unecessarily hellish time, and in the ~new kinder gentler ILX era~ I feel like memories have faded for other people of how it was then, because it's so different now. But I still live with those memories, when seeing certain words, certain names on ILX just trigger (in the psychological sense of the word) such a sense of panic and terror that I don't know if I will ever be entirely without. This is the first time, in any space, trans or mixed, that I've encountered someone whose shiny new beautiful trans name, is the deadname that I went through such hell - specifically on ILX - to get people to *stop* using. And it's fucking weird. But I want to place that weirdness in the correct place - not even remotely on the person who's chosen that name - but on the people who made it SO HARD for me to get out of that name in the first place.

I'm really happy that it's going well for newer people coming out! I really am! I just wish it didn't bring back such awful memories for me, and such rage that it went so badly for me. It's bittersweet, and complicated, and I don't know what to do with these feelings. But I just wanted to note them somewhere.

Anyway, I'm off to Vienna (this means nothing to me!) Take care, girls and non-boys.

Branwell with an N, Thursday, 22 August 2019 12:25 (four years ago) link

it's amazing how as a kid I knew NONE of these wonderful things about her
how would you have known? you were a wee tot! preschool was one of the times i remember being happiest as a child. also lonely when i was the last one to get picked up but overall i liked it.

it's bringing up a lot of old, raw, painful memories of how it was
yeah i know what you mean -- i was thinking about the name situation* and wondering if you were handling it ok.

i am not not trans and i feel the old raw feelings from time to time too -- i imagine it's how my mom felt when she saw me unapologetically enjoying liberties she never had. she was never bitter or mean about it, but there was a lot of "are you sure?" even innocuous-seeming stuff like, for example, taking cute pictures of myself all the way to the ability to tell people who don't approve of/like me to fuck off. i was taught to appease when possible, avoid if necessary, and if it gets bad, just disappear.

it's making me want to dig out the poloroids i took of myself in my 20s. i was confused about what my face looked like so i took zillions of photos of myself to try to get an objective perspective. they're not risque in any way but i was definitely trying to look cute! maybe it's safe to share them now...maybe not. in the back of my mind, i feel the encroachment of unwanted attention and NOOOOOOOO THEY WILL ATTACK YOU and i think twice. it's not that i begrudge anyone the ability to take and share pictures of themselves -- i love it -- i wish i could have it too but they will need to be old photos bc i'm not as cute anymore ;) i held back so much of myself because i was terrified of being attacked and it's painful to think about the me that could have been, however fruitless those thoughts might be. i really really really try not to think about it. my life has been ok, and it could have been better but it's alright.

*I think you know what I mean and I don't want to deadname anyone. i know it was very hard for you and i understand why you might feel the way you do. being gracious about it is the only way but that doesn't make it hurt less <3 memories of the bad times have not faded in my mind, fwiw

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 22 August 2019 14:02 (four years ago) link

It's a little bit awkward because it is a part-public conversation and there is part of this going on outside the public boards. Speaking only for myself I think it was necessary for me to have that space to work through things but at the same time most of the people I know here as out weren't part of that space. Now that I am Out I feel more comfortable talking about these things on public boards...

I do try to focus on the positive. There's a lot of bad shit I've been through and all the stuff that people coming out today are afraid of, it's stuff that I've been through and that's still something they are at risk for today. I tried to come out 20 years ago and it was really, really bad. I couldn't do it, I couldn't go through with it, and there was a pretty high price I paid for that.

Every trans person paid that price but those who paid it by coming out, I feel they have the better portion, because going through that rejection and suffering actually made the world a better place, whereas I didn't do shit to make things better by scampering back into the closet. At this point I don't feel guilt or shame for that, but I am immensely proud of every single goddamn person who came out before me, and I owe a debt of gratitude to all of them. Including you, Branwell.

Abigail, Wife of Preserved Fish (rushomancy), Thursday, 22 August 2019 14:06 (four years ago) link

And I am sorry for what you're going through. I know how triggers work. I wasn't present on ILX now the way I was back in the times you talk about. That said, I am vaguely aware of your deadname and the issues you went through with it and, uh, I am 100% positive that the person who came out as your deadname, the fact that their name is the same as your deadname is a complete coincidence. They don't want to cause you hurt or pain and feel absolutely terrible about doing so.

Abigail, Wife of Preserved Fish (rushomancy), Thursday, 22 August 2019 14:14 (four years ago) link

i held back so much of myself because i was terrified of being attacked and it's painful to think about the me that could have been, however fruitless those thoughts might be. i really really really try not to think about it. my life has been ok, and it could have been better but it's alright.

It's kinda the only way to deal, to move forward. I feel like I have so many lost years, as a person, because I spent about a decade trying to be "bulletproof" and some sort of "pillar of the community" (whatever that really means) which entailed a lot of self-denial and labyrinthine boundaries for any doubts, fear, or vulnerability (which I associated with being feminine), but like a pillar, being solid and stable and intimidating when needed.

sarahell, Thursday, 22 August 2019 16:01 (four years ago) link

I actually had a fairly mundane, but actually super positive, thing happen for me at work the other day -- I'll avoid all the boring (or at least complicated) details, but it was basically, something that I had associated with one of my greatest failures and traumatic life events -- I engaged with that thing and helped a few other people successfully (at least for now) deal with said thing.

sarahell, Thursday, 22 August 2019 16:04 (four years ago) link

Oh man, I was in such a Bad Place before I went to Vienna, on so many levels. Thanks for listening to me, and not being judgemental. I just had to get that stuff out, and I didn't know where else. One doesn't want to dwell on trauma or pain or bad stuff - but at the same time, sometimes, you just need someone else to acknowledge that the bad stuff did *happen*, in order to move past it and go on. I am in a much better place now, than a few weeks ago, for many reasons - including that acknowledgement.

Vienna was... a lot. Wow. Stendahl Syndrome is real, people!

Anyway, on another subject, this looks like it might be an interesting book, and I have ordered it:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/sep/02/why-dont-doctors-trust-women-because-they-dont-know-much-about-us

I mean, I don't want to be that person that always focuses on pain, but I learned so much on this thread, about physical aspects of AFAB-related body pain I had not seen or read about anywhere else, and also started seeing discourse around *why* so much of AFAB-related pain just wasn't taken seriously. Maybe it would be interesting to other people here?

Would there be any interest at all, in maybe doing a No-Boys-Thread Reading Group? Doesn't have to be this book (I was thinking about how I thought a lot of ppl here would benefit from reading Kate Mann's Down Girl, too) but after starting my own Queer Theory reading group, I've suddenly discovered that I really love reading groups? Anyone else interested? Or even suggestions of other books to read?

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 4 September 2019 09:54 (four years ago) link

Totally understand where you're coming from, Branwell, and WB. "Down Girl" has been on my "to read" list since you mentioned it... it's a long list though :(

sock fingering, baby (rushomancy), Thursday, 5 September 2019 00:02 (four years ago) link

One of the greatest things about reading groups is that they focus you to sit down and read the stuff you've been meaning to!

But I'm not really hearing a lot of enthusiasm around this idea, so oh well. It was only an idea.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 6 September 2019 09:56 (four years ago) link

I love reading groups but the woman participation on ilx is so sporadic and sparse that it probably would not be sustainable. I miss a lot of my book clubs that died off after a couple of months.

Yerac, Friday, 6 September 2019 13:40 (four years ago) link

Hi, Branwell! I love that you suggested it but I'm a terrible book club participant bc I never do the assigned reading! Also I exclusively read women-centric/women-authored sci-fi/fantasy so I never get around to non-fic which is what I really need to read for my political education. Alas.

Sorry for not being able to jump in. Also, tbh the new school I work at is pretty strict and since I'm on a track-able internet connection, I've almost stopped being on ilx at all. It's weird, but probably professionally healthy.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Friday, 6 September 2019 16:47 (four years ago) link

Hi, Branwell! I love that you suggested it but I'm a terrible book club participant bc I never do the assigned reading!

I echo this ... I also have a backlog of reading I need to do for professional education/certification that I've been putting off

sarahell, Friday, 6 September 2019 18:24 (four years ago) link

i am useless when it comes to accepting more responsibilities right now -- i would do a reading group irl because i like hanging w people irl but that's where my commitment ends considering my current work/music/domestic/self-care responsibilities.

it's a pleasant idea to imagine hanging w y'all and talking irl :)

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 6 September 2019 18:51 (four years ago) link

lol I literally run my own book group irl and we haven’t had a meeting in months. It’s really hard and it takes a lot of effort on my part to keep trying to get people together, consensus on a book & then even meet so don’t feel bad about it.

I am trying to get back into reading though, but I’m so out of it - I think I pretty much only read articles atm but I’m fairly starved on fiction and I haven’t read any guilty pleasure stuff in ages.

gyac, Friday, 6 September 2019 19:13 (four years ago) link

ha i meant i would do a reading group irl if i didn't have to do the cattle herding! no way

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 6 September 2019 19:21 (four years ago) link

I have spent many years as a professional cat herder and am now semi-retired

sarahell, Friday, 6 September 2019 20:11 (four years ago) link

Oh good I'm not the only one who sucks at book clubs, I thought it was just me. Every time I'm in a book club I forget to read the assigned reading and then just try and bullshit my way through the discussion and feel guilty about it afterwards.

sock fingering, baby (rushomancy), Saturday, 7 September 2019 02:10 (four years ago) link

Aw, so I'm the loser who is never ever busy and has nothing but time and has always done the reading because I have cleared my schedule essentially forever to make space for more reading!

I pretty much refuse to do cat herding. The reading group is the first Sunday of every month because we tried for a couple of months to work around people's schedules and it just didn't work. But it's absolutely fine for people to miss a month and pick back up when they are able.

We also made a decision when we started, to do essays rather than full books, so it would be easier to dip in and out. But it's only been going since the start of this year, so I've no idea if it's sustainable. We don't have to 'agree' on pieces, either. We go round the group and everyone picks, and it's fine to read stuff we disagree with - it's actually more fun sometimes when someone picks an essay that there isn't a consensus on!

Branwell with an N, Saturday, 7 September 2019 09:39 (four years ago) link

Branwell I can't let you calling yourself a loser pass without making a sad face. You are not a loser, you are an awesome person and your priorities are good ones. Your book club sounds cool and I wish I was able to commit to it.

sock fingering, baby (rushomancy), Saturday, 7 September 2019 17:30 (four years ago) link

there's definitely cultural baggage and stereotypes that would make Branwell feel like "the loser" though ... "the nerdy girl who has no life" is definitely one of those stereotypes I remember growing up because it was how I was certain other people perceived me.

sarahell, Saturday, 7 September 2019 19:12 (four years ago) link

I was not entirely serious in my pity party! Forgot that British sarcasm doesn't always translate. (Books are way better than ppl to be honest. (Only half joking there?))

((I've just spent all afternoon at a picnic, which was wonderful, and it was great to see so many of my friends, but also completely exhausting and I really long for the company of a nice quiet book now.))

Oh, in case I wasn't clear, the reading group I was talking about in my post there was the queer theory reading group I run in London. Obviously an internet reading group would have had to be run quite differently. (If anyone is queer, and in London, and interested in attending, message me, but I think that's kind of a niche group.)

Thanks for the cheerups tho! That's really sweet. :)

Branwell with an N, Saturday, 7 September 2019 19:18 (four years ago) link

I hate that stereotype so much xpost. I have one friend that *still* tries to make me feel bad about not wanting to go out. It's done jokingly but it's been so repetitive over the years that I just shut him out right away because I was getting angry about feeling forced into doing something I didn't want to do. I like to hang out by myself; people are generally too exhausting. I was talking to my FIL once about how my spouse is always nice to be around because he's always calm and my FIL said "oh, he's super good for loners because he will sit there quietly for hours."

Yerac, Saturday, 7 September 2019 19:52 (four years ago) link

Oh good it's my turn to steamroll over someone else's joke :) Mostly I think this comes from my experiences with self-deprecation, particularly as practiced by people who aren't cis male. I see it a lot and it's something I pretty much always want to push back against even at the cost of feeling like a pedant.

sock fingering, baby (rushomancy), Saturday, 7 September 2019 21:07 (four years ago) link

idk often when I make self-deprecating jokes, I am only partially kidding and partially serious

sarahell, Saturday, 7 September 2019 21:33 (four years ago) link

two weeks pass...

Just bumping for something utterly trivial: after years of searching, I think NYX’s #thisiseverything lip balm might be the best one I’ve ever used? Lips stay soft and smooth long after it’s worn off as well. This sounds like an ad but honestly, if something works it works.

gyac, Monday, 23 September 2019 22:11 (four years ago) link

That’s good to know! My homemade lip balm was ok but actually not that great in usage aside from the satisfaction of having made it.

I’m here to complain about pms again. Has anyone ever used any successful treatment for PMDD? I’m SO TIRED of losing my shit for 12/52 weeks of every year.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, 23 September 2019 23:01 (four years ago) link

have you talked to a dr about meds? My PMS got better with Celexa and the Mirena IUD.

just1n3, Tuesday, 24 September 2019 08:54 (four years ago) link

I recently worked with several women that were perimenopausal. They were all cutting out sugar, caffeine, carbs to help, although it's likely they were taking some meds too. About half of my periods are super bad but only for a day or two, not wanting to leave the house, being non verbal, nausea, bad lower back pain. I probably should cut out the coffee and sugar again. I remember when I did that once for several years my pms and periods were so easy but I was also younger. I haven't taken any medication (besides for asthma) or bc probably since my early 20s. I almost got mirena but then i think I got spooked that it was supposedly more painful for women who hadn't given birth.

Yerac, Tuesday, 24 September 2019 12:51 (four years ago) link

yeah i have been through the IUD considerations and came out on the "no" end so that is not an option.

the main symptoms i am hoping to avoid are emotional; i exercise regularly and have a wholesome diet, have been sleeping better and generally am ok but for 1/4 of every month i turn into a different person, a very depressed and short-tempered one, and one that feels unmoored. i remember reading about dysphoria when i was a teen and really relating.then i went on hbc for like 20 years and it must have helped. then i stopped taking it. i guess i should talk to my doc. sigh. it looks like meds are the only actual treatment. i don't think cutting xyz out of my diet is going to solve this problem.

i wish there were some magical glasses i could wear that would help me cut through the fog and help me see clearly during these times. magic glasses that can see inside my head and also outside my head. and then when people see the glasses, they would automatically treat me just a little bit more kindly because they know i am a little blind at the moment and having trouble seeing clearly.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 14:06 (four years ago) link

Do you track your periods? It doesn’t treat any symptoms but it sometimes helps knowing my feelings and reactions on the days before are probably linked to it.

tokyo rosemary, Tuesday, 24 September 2019 18:26 (four years ago) link

yeah i have been tracking. tbh it doesn't change anything -- there is a series of steps that repeat. some months are worse than others but the process and anticipation are the same.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 18:33 (four years ago) link

I don’t know much about it or how scientifically legit it is, but I’ve come across PMS stuff that involves evening primrose oil, pumpkin and sunflower seeds, other ways of supposedly managing hormones “naturally”.

Tbh you’re doing everything else right, so meds are probably your last option. Celexa has been v low impact for me in terms of side effects.

just1n3, Tuesday, 24 September 2019 19:00 (four years ago) link

Good to know! Thank you -- I think nuts and berries and ointments and elixirs and seeds and oils are very good for me psychologically because using/eating/making them helps me feel like I am doing something to at least be aware that I need something; it doesn't make anything better inside my head where the real stench is coming from is unfortch

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 19:43 (four years ago) link

i wish there were some magical glasses i could wear that would help me cut through the fog and help me see clearly during these times. magic glasses that can see inside my head and also outside my head.

it took me about 13 years from when I realized I suffered from "mental health problems" to actually going on medication for said problems, so I can relate, even though it's a different context. ... I think what I take for anxiety is also prescribed for bad PMS/menstrual stuff

sarahell, Tuesday, 24 September 2019 19:59 (four years ago) link

i wish there were some magical glasses i could wear that would help me cut through the fog and help me see clearly during these times. magic glasses that can see inside my head and also outside my head. and then when people see the glasses, they would automatically treat me just a little bit more kindly because they know i am a little blind at the moment and having trouble seeing clearly.

― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, September 24, 2019 2:06 PM

Oh man, I would fully support these Dysphoria Glasses and ask when they will be available on the NHS. This would be such a good idea, both ways round.

Not just for PMT, but also for Really Bad Autism Days. Like, most days, I can mask pretty effectively and function and get on with life. But if I haven't slept, or I'm slightly ill, my executive function goes out the window and takes everything with it. I've got pretty good at reframing 'everything has gone to absolute fujcking shit and I'm shouting at birds' as 'is this a RBAD?' and getting out before the meltdown. But I could really do with some sign to those around me, that this is what is happening. Like, I use a cane on the days that my back is really bothering me, to signal 'yes, I do need you to offer me a seat'.

Also, it would be helpful, leaning to interact with other people. Being autistic, reading other people's moods and motivations is the hardest thing! If someone would be wearing the Dysphoria Glasses, it would be a sign to people like me, who struggle to *read* what is going on, "oh, this person is In A Bad Place, give them some space" - to understand *that* is what is going on, not "this person is unpredictable, dangerous, possibly abusive".

Not that I'm even remotely suggesting you're anywhere near the latter, LL!

But so much of therapy (for me) was learning to see red flags and warning signs and learning how to protect myself. Problem is, my warning-sign-detectors are now probably set a little too high. Dysphoria Glasses would be a lot easier to distinguish from red flag suits!

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 25 September 2019 08:27 (four years ago) link

This has got to be the ultimate first-world problem. But how am I both perimenopausal (probably) AND treating and being treated by a (supposedly) adult man like we're both inexperienced teenagers? I've seen that man Nick at the fitness center the last two times I went, but he wouldn't come close enough to say anything. I was going to try to invite him to a film screening this weekend, but....

If you're reading this, please tell me you laughed. I'm tired of framing this whole situation in the language of an overemotional adolescent.

Anne Hedonia (j.lu), Tuesday, 8 October 2019 16:40 (four years ago) link

I did smile. It’s good to know it never ever changes, though. That’s reassuring.

gyac, Tuesday, 8 October 2019 16:42 (four years ago) link

Reassuring is not the term I would use. I don't remember, as a teenager, thinking about what life at my current age would be like. But I sure wouldn't have anticipated the same "But does he LIKE like me? And do I really LIKE like him?" deadlock.

Anne Hedonia (j.lu), Tuesday, 8 October 2019 16:51 (four years ago) link

But if you remember being a teenager you probably thought that everyone who was an adult had their shit together and when you actually get there and find out people don’t...I mean, it’s a better feeling than thinking you’re the only one.

gyac, Tuesday, 8 October 2019 16:55 (four years ago) link

I don't remember, as a teenager, thinking about what life at my current age would be like. But I sure wouldn't have anticipated the same "But does he LIKE like me? And do I really LIKE like him?" deadlock.

As a teenager, I thought I would be dead by now ... or happily married, so I definitely didn't anticipate that ... yeah, it's absurd, I have very recently been there. I would want to reassure my teenage self that I now live in a cool city, so I'm not stuck in a small town with a depressingly limited pool of boys to think that about, while simultaneously thinking, "Why are guys all so stupid?"

sarahell, Tuesday, 8 October 2019 19:26 (four years ago) link

still though ... even with a much larger selection of "eligible males" + the internet, I still often think, "Why are guys all so stupid?"

sarahell, Tuesday, 8 October 2019 19:26 (four years ago) link

at least you don't have to wait until after 9pm to make phone calls to people you like.

Yerac, Tuesday, 8 October 2019 19:33 (four years ago) link

at least you don't have to wait until after 9pm to make phone calls to people you like.

― Yerac, Tuesday, October 8, 2019 12:33 PM (five minutes ago

omg, it's kinda like that though! Like there is this *thing* where you are supposed to ask ppl if you can call them (and vice versa).

sarahell, Tuesday, 8 October 2019 19:39 (four years ago) link

the same "But does he LIKE like me? And do I really LIKE like him?" deadlock.

Oh man, try this, but with added extra "but is she/they gay? bi-curious? heteroflexible? are they even attracted to my gender in the first place? Wait, remind me again, what gender does she believe I even am?"

It's funny how everyone tries to reassure you, you know, when you're a teenager everything seems so complicated, but it gets simpler? It doesn't. It's simple when you're a teenager. It gets way way more complicated when you're older.

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 9 October 2019 08:51 (four years ago) link

well it was simple for me when i was a teenager because i hated myself, thought i was a grotesque freak, and was too scared to talk to anybody!

Spironolactone T. Agnew (rushomancy), Wednesday, 9 October 2019 14:19 (four years ago) link

Now when did I last feel that way? Oh yeah, this morning.

Anne Hedonia (j.lu), Wednesday, 9 October 2019 14:30 (four years ago) link

stuck in a small town with a depressingly limited pool of boys to think that about, while simultaneously thinking, "Why are guys all so stupid?"

lol HARD SAME. Plus being trained in a religion that specified that not only was I supposed to find one of these idiots attractive, but I was going to have to be subservient to him as the master of the household. Put me right off marriage, I'll tell you that.

And to think people used to ask me why I didn't date in school or college.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 9 October 2019 16:37 (four years ago) link

La Lechera, have you considered taking birth control pills continuously to skip your period? This was suggested to me, though I did not do it.

Virginia Plain, Wednesday, 9 October 2019 17:33 (four years ago) link

i have recently reconsidered going back on HBC. i took bc pills for most of my menstruating years and going off them was not good; they also gave me migraines. still maybe that is better than what i have been experiencing? it has been almost a decade since i tried that, maybe my situation is different now.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 9 October 2019 18:06 (four years ago) link

also otm about hometown slim pickins -- i'm not interested in revisiting my adolescent years in no small part because the pool of options i had was small and, as it turns out, quite bad.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 9 October 2019 18:07 (four years ago) link

meanwhile, I've been single for almost exactly 10 years now, and I am more or less okay with it ... at least, the cultural and psychological pressure to be partnered is mostly gone. I realized, after talking to a female friend who is in therapy for this, that I have a history of "codependency issues" ... it's like I have a tendency to turn into this other person when I am in a relationship or crushing super hard. This other person is generally a lot nicer and sweeter than "the real me" but the fact that somehow my self-esteem and a lot of my identity suddenly is dependent on what the partner/crush thinks of me and thinks about "things" ... it's scary as fuck.

sarahell, Wednesday, 9 October 2019 19:35 (four years ago) link

Same. I have a bad track record of not being myself in relationships, which I'm pretty sure has contributed to the demise of a couple of them. Oddly enough though, not in my current one, which is one of the sterling qualities that makes me stay in it.

For me, it's been related to dating people who I think are too good for me; basically I'm afraid they'll figure out that I'm not smart enough or cool enough to be worthy of them, which makes me consumed with the necessity of being perfect/charming/etc so they don't find out. It's poison, obvs. Idk what happened with my current partner, I guess bc we met online and just started dating, there was no long period where I was "in crush" with him. Also tbf maybe I was feeling especially cold and rational year and I just held that line.

It's better this way. And it turns out that the real me is a monster lol

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 10 October 2019 17:08 (four years ago) link

And it turns out that the real me is a monster lol

Oh shiiiit, I have so much to say on that topic (not you, but me) but ... I am not going to reveal that much.

sarahell, Thursday, 10 October 2019 17:34 (four years ago) link

I look forward to it! It's not really that I'm terrible, maybe a little lazy, selfish, human...but I can't be afraid of being flawed or else everything is doomed, including my mental health.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 10 October 2019 17:57 (four years ago) link

most of the recent long term couples i know either knew the person from school or met them on the internet. no in-between.

Yerac, Thursday, 10 October 2019 17:59 (four years ago) link

Basically, my attitude towards "the real me" is: there is some dark evil garbage there, but I have a choice whether to indulge it or repress it; I have the agency to prevent other people from being hurt by it; I can work on understanding what triggers it and how to talk myself down and deal with things in a kinder more empathetic way.

sarahell, Thursday, 10 October 2019 18:03 (four years ago) link

And to me, that's the scary aspect of the alt-right MRA incel dudes -- it's like they are just collectively saying "fuck it" and indulging their inner angry sociopaths as opposed to saying, "I don't want to be evil," and trying to be better people.

sarahell, Thursday, 10 October 2019 18:25 (four years ago) link

Wow, Sarahell, it's like you've reinvented hardcore Calvinism? (I am mostly joking, but only mostly.)

I dunno. Like, a large part of therapy for me was letting go of this idea (totally internalised from that kind of Christianity) that the fundamental core of me was some dark evil garbage. Like, yes, I had some pretty heavy neurological difference that caused me to interpret (and be interpreted by) therefore react to (and be reacted to) other people in some fucked up ways. But it was up to me how I navigated and negotiated that, with that knowledge?

Like, even with the hardcore misandry that has built up over years, deep down, I really have a hard time believing that anyone is a truly totally garbage human being. That there are flawed human beings operating within twisted systems that twist them. But believing that makes it harder for me - like, when cis dudes confirm all the wost aspects of cis dudeisms, I get angry, like - you have the ability to do better? You could, and you should! Every non-cis-dude I know works on themselves so hard all the time, why don't you make that choice, instead of just doubling down on it?

Anyway, this thinkpiece seems to be resonating with a lot of what's been said here (and I love the phrase heteropessimism) but it's still leaving me with a sense of ... I don't know, rubbing me the wrong way. Girls, what is bugging about this piece?

https://thenewinquiry.com/on-heteropessimism/

Branwell with an N, Thursday, 10 October 2019 18:52 (four years ago) link

Wow, Sarahell, it's like you've reinvented hardcore Calvinism? (I am mostly joking, but only mostly.)

ha the religion of my ancestors (probably)! ... I don't think everyone has dark evil garbage at their core. Or rather, there's a spectrum of dark evil garbage -- and mine is "above average" like if we were to compare it to absorbency ratings on menstrual products, with the most innately kind compassionate people having a panty liner's worth of dark evil garbage, mine would be definitely be a "super plus" but not so bad as to require a tampon + heavy days pad. And I'm not saying I was "born that way" -- a lot of it was unhealthy thinking and coping mechanisms as a result of being a weird kid in an oppressively normal small town, as well as untreated mental illness.

That there are flawed human beings operating within twisted systems that twist them. But believing that makes it harder for me - like, when cis dudes confirm all the wost aspects of cis dudeisms, I get angry, like - you have the ability to do better? You could, and you should!

What I believe is closer to that, btw. Some people get twisted "worse" than others, some get twisted towards narcissism, sociopathic tendencies, bullying, intolerance/hatred of difference ... others get twisted towards fear, crippling anxiety, low self-worth, etc. Not to make it binary ... because some of the "predatory" twistedness stems from "victimhood" twistedness.

sarahell, Thursday, 10 October 2019 19:08 (four years ago) link

Branwell, I haven't read the article yet, but would it make sense re: your discomfort, that the person on social media I saw post a link to it is a cis white hetero dude who is into idm and alt-right adjacent?

sarahell, Thursday, 10 October 2019 19:10 (four years ago) link

That article, I dunno. Heterosexuality is such a huge mess and there are too many rigid institutions that want to keep it that way. I have been getting annoyed with my fb friends, women with phDs and full time jobs who circulate articles about the unseen labor they do in the household while their husband still has to be reminded of simple adult things to do. Such a shitshow.

Yerac, Thursday, 10 October 2019 19:29 (four years ago) link

Which also leads into that study recently about men benefitting more than women from being married and women being more likely to initiate divorces. Like, no shit.

Yerac, Thursday, 10 October 2019 19:30 (four years ago) link

Tldr that hot garbage. Any time an accusation is made that some act of resistance is "performative," I mentally mute all following content.

The little bit that I did read made me really angry because, among probably 1000 other things, the author is

1. Pretending that they don't know that when straight women complain about being attracted to men, what they're really critiquing is patriarchy, not heterosexuality as itself.

2. Pretending that heterosexuality is the same as violent/toxic masculinity/patriarchy. "I think they're wrong, that there's evidence heterosexual culture is changing. But even if it weren't we would have to believe it could, because tens of thousands of women are currently dying of it [heterosexuality] every year, murdered by their husbands, boyfriends, or exes.") THEY'RE NOT MURDERED FOR BEING HETERO, THEY'RE MURDERED BECAUSE THE MEN IN THEIR LIVES ARE VIOLENT MISOGYNISTS. Also because guns, honestly.

3. The writer just equated women who are "pessimistic" about heterosexuality, as in point #1, and Men Going Their Own Way, which I don't have the resiliency to explain here but google MGTOW if you must. Those two ideas are NOT EQUAL.

Honestly there's so much more but I can't type it all out. Throw the whole article away.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 10 October 2019 19:34 (four years ago) link

haha, otm. Yeah, I started skimming because the entire thing was confusingly written.

Yerac, Thursday, 10 October 2019 19:37 (four years ago) link

on point 1 about being attracted to men I thought they were going to go into a sexual attraction vs romantic attraction angle but that wasn't the case.

Yerac, Thursday, 10 October 2019 19:38 (four years ago) link

Thank you, in orbit, you hit the ball right out of the park immediately.

I think it was Point No. 3 that just stuck in my throat, like, what, no - these two things are not the same thing at all. The reasoning is different, the logic is different, the power dynamic is completely different. And just feeling like that author had really, really missed something incredibly big, as to why she would even think this way.

And of course, what she has missed is exactly points 1 and 2.

Thank you! You have very succinctly articulated what was bothering me!

Branwell with an N, Thursday, 10 October 2019 19:54 (four years ago) link

Yes, io otm. That essay or whatever it is sounds like garbage.

Also I value succinct point-making/articulation of ideas so much in the face of disingenuous long-winded endurance tests designed to fatigue the reader into capitulation to their pov

💜

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 10 October 2019 20:11 (four years ago) link

It’s like when someone says “fight me” — my first thought is “no way, f u”

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 10 October 2019 20:13 (four years ago) link

Boy, and how.

Recently I was in a professional training and the speaker asked for a show of hands: "Who in here sees themselves as a person of excellence?" or something like that. And a few ppl raised their hands but honestly I was just like "That sounds exhausting. Is there a medium version?"

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 10 October 2019 20:36 (four years ago) link

xp - I prefer "fight me" to a long ass diatribe about "this is why you suck" -- having experienced both

sarahell, Thursday, 10 October 2019 20:39 (four years ago) link

relatedly, going back to the differences between teen dating and adult relationships -- it is way way easier to avoid the people it doesn't work out with when you're an adult.

sarahell, Thursday, 10 October 2019 20:42 (four years ago) link

oh my i would not give the time of day to a diatribe about why i suck
1) excuse you, i don't suck. your thesis is invalid.
and 2) who has the time/inclination to type out paragraphs of hateful shit and deliver it to a person? wtf, no one i want to know.

poof
* u got jettisoned *

being a teenager fucking sucked, i'll take adulthood any day any way

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 10 October 2019 20:46 (four years ago) link

wtf, no one i want to know.

you know this person. you regret knowing this person.

sarahell, Thursday, 10 October 2019 20:49 (four years ago) link

basically I prolonged the diatribe by logically arguing against each of his points

sarahell, Thursday, 10 October 2019 20:50 (four years ago) link

Not the wisest choice, next time press EJECT to jettison rather than REPLY

The difference is palpable! Hard FU to anyone who tries to manipulate people that way.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 10 October 2019 21:38 (four years ago) link

Tbh I felt pretty good about myself that I didn't press "LOOP PLAY"

sarahell, Thursday, 10 October 2019 21:55 (four years ago) link

I did eventually press EJECT after telling him that he was projecting his own insecurities and inadequacies onto me, that he has serious control issues, and that he should work on having the self-discipline necessary to not treat other people like shit

sarahell, Thursday, 10 October 2019 22:08 (four years ago) link

It took a lot of self-discipline on my part not to do anything vindictive ... outside of post on this thread.

sarahell, Thursday, 10 October 2019 22:09 (four years ago) link

What I believe is closer to that, btw. Some people get twisted "worse" than others, some get twisted towards narcissism, sociopathic tendencies, bullying, intolerance/hatred of difference ... others get twisted towards fear, crippling anxiety, low self-worth, etc. Not to make it binary ... because some of the "predatory" twistedness stems from "victimhood" twistedness.

― sarahell

cycle of violence and abuse. i know i've done both at once.

a lot of what i've gone through is getting myself to a point where i can _listen_ to that vicious hateful screaming person inside of me. turns out all that anger and rage and shit was because i wasn't _listening_ to them, which of course i wasn't because they were screaming and abusive and possibly violent. anybody else behaved like that and i wouldn't listen to them, i'd shut them out and keep them away to keep myself safe, but when it's me doing that it's not enough to say that's a "bad person" and ignore them, and it's not enough to argue with them and tell them all the ways they're wrong. "i hear what you are saying and i disagree" seems to work, though.

Spironolactone T. Agnew (rushomancy), Friday, 11 October 2019 00:33 (four years ago) link

a long ass diatribe about "this is why you suck"

Inspired by Captain Awkward and 5 long years of therapy, the most satisfying response to such a thing, is a succinct non-engagement.

To them: "Wow, you're right. The person you're describing sounds like a total arsehole. You should stop being friends with them."

THEN WALK AWAY.

To yourself: "wow, why would I want to be friends with someone who genuinely views me that way?"

Branwell with an N, Friday, 11 October 2019 07:52 (four years ago) link

(Usual caveats that this is based on highly gendered patterns. That people who are viewed as women are trained to view every relationship problem as their specific personal responsibility, and that it is their job to placate or even fix angry or demanding men. I think the hardest lesson is not actually learning to press EJECT; but to learn to distinguish genuine and helpful advice from this kind of controlling behaviour.)

Branwell with an N, Friday, 11 October 2019 07:53 (four years ago) link

I'm having a weird and horrible experience right now, which is really messing with my head, and my ideas around gender-based violence. But it's very much a question of "this is one isolated and individual example, that violates but does not invalidate the general patterns of how this shit works."

I don't know if this thread or a Neighbour Problems thread is the appropriate place for it (I still have panic attacks at the thought of asking even reasonable questions on General ILX.) But a new couple have recently moved into the flat next to mine, and since then, there has been near-constant, loud, invasive and open (as in, it does not stay in their flat, it moves into the shared areas directly outside my door and windows) terrifying domestic violence.

After trying repeatedly to offer help to the girl, then (very reluctantly, with great trepidation because my local police are known for their brutality) getting the police involved bcz one of them pulled a knife - I discovered that it was actually the girl being abusive and violent towards the boy.

It's a fucking nightmare, because it drives home exactly what "local services cut to the bone" actually means in an inner London borough - little to no response from the council, her social worker impossible to get hold of, no resources at the police's domestic violence department to deal with it, no spaces at local mental hospitals to address either her untreated mental illness or the pair's drug dependency.

I'm pretty well versed in how to support a woman being abused by a man. I know what resources are available, I know how to help and how not to help. But this? I got nothing. It is rare; it is generally the exception. But being unprepared for the exception is... well, this is a lot right now, and I don't know how to handle it.

Not really expecting replies, but thanks for listening/reading.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 11 October 2019 08:23 (four years ago) link

To me this is the frustrating thing about the whataboutists who turn every conversation about abuse into a pretext for misogyny. It happens. Sometimes women abuse men. Sometimes women assault men. And the whataboutists make me afraid of even mentioning this, talking about the people I've known, lest I sound like one of them.

One of my wife's former co-workers openly sexually assaulted a man at their office (hence "former"). One of my co-workers, the week I came out, went to court to testify for one of her friends, whose ex was violent towards him. It was a difficult and terrifying experience for her, and after all that the judge still dismissed it as a "domestic dispute", because he had the not uncommon perception that women don't abuse men.

Like you say, these are individual examples, and they don't imply larger patterns.

Spironolactone T. Agnew (rushomancy), Friday, 11 October 2019 13:36 (four years ago) link

I'm pretty well versed in how to support a woman being abused by a man. I know what resources are available, I know how to help and how not to help. But this? I got nothing.

ugh ... yeah, it's tough ... in situations like this (and I have been in similar ones) I tend to ask myself, "what am I willing to do, what do I feel confident I can do and not make the situation worse, and how much responsibility am I willing to take on?"

sarahell, Friday, 11 October 2019 17:44 (four years ago) link

That people who are viewed as women are trained to view every relationship problem as their specific personal responsibility, and that it is their job to placate or even fix angry or demanding men.

It's true ... but in this case, at that particular stage, I felt more like I was providing diagnostic tech support for his shitty personality

sarahell, Friday, 11 October 2019 17:47 (four years ago) link

omg let me ask how much responsibility am I willing to take on?

bc diagnostic tech support for this particular situation sounds like a looooooooot of work :)

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 11 October 2019 18:07 (four years ago) link

wait, Branwell's situation or mine?

sarahell, Friday, 11 October 2019 18:28 (four years ago) link

yours

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 11 October 2019 18:28 (four years ago) link

i mean, i had done previous research ... it's not like it took much effort to assess his problems ... he pretty much had admitted them ... if we are comparing this "relationship" ending discussion to tech support, it was like, "oh, you have weird pop-ups and your browser is screwy? and you said that you regularly look at foreign porn sites? sounds like malware. Yeah, you need to get something to get rid of the malware. I can't do anything on my end. Thanks for calling. Bye."

sarahell, Friday, 11 October 2019 18:35 (four years ago) link

obviously I hadn't done _enough_ research to realize he was a horrible narcissist before getting involved, even to the fairly minor extent I did. ... and by "research" I mean, refreshing my memory of previous conversations throughout the years

sarahell, Friday, 11 October 2019 18:52 (four years ago) link

Alright, I am very much tired of this menopause bullshit, and I would simply like it to be over.

The physical stuff is annoying but I can mostly handle it. (Hot flushes, night sweats (totaly misnomer BTW), rivers of blood periods - and to be honest, I am finding growing facial hair really interesting and would actually kinda like more of it?)

The *emotional* stuff is... holy fucking shit, I cannot cope. I am at the point where I am getting anxiety about getting anxiety, if that makes sense. (I am constantly on edge about everything, on edge about noise, on edge about fighting and conflict of any kind... but I'm at the point where I'm getting seriously, life-affectingly anxious about the fear that I might get anxious and lose it.) And the weeping...?!?!? What the fucking fuck. I am not and have never been a weepy person. But I've been weeping for, like, two hours at a time. Full-on, ugly-cry, body-weeping, at work, to the point where I have to go and book out a room so I don't upset anyone around me. If I have to go through a year or two of this, I am genuinely worried that I'd be at risk of harming myself or someone around me.

I'm going to the doctor on Friday but I wanted to canvas some opinions about WHAT CAN BE DONE.

Do any anti-anxiety or anti-depressant drugs actually work on this body-related business? (I'm really reluctant to get into taking hormonal treatments because even hormonal birth control made me full-on psychotic. Does this work differently if you're trans? Jeez, ILX is the wrong place to ask this, due to lack of AFAB ppl, let alone trans AFAB ppl.) Most of the menopause related discourse I see out there is about the physical stuff, or the 'oh no, I'm losing my fertility and vitality' stuff. (And I understand why, because who wants to reinforce that 'menstrual stuff be driving AFABs kerrrrr-azy!' narrative.) But what can be done about extreme emotional symptoms?

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 23 October 2019 07:10 (four years ago) link

I think it’s not uncommon to get SSRIs for emotional stuff during menopause. Like so many AFAB body things, there is a broad range of symptoms and experiences. I am sorry yours are so severe. But if doctors will give women psych meds for post-partum emotional messiness, it would be counterintuitive that they wouldn’t help someone going through menopause

sarahell, Wednesday, 23 October 2019 07:36 (four years ago) link

That's kind of what I was afraid of. I had very mixed results with SSRIs. I honestly don't think they would be appropriate for what I'm going through at the moment. They did help with levelling moods, and taking the edge off the bleakness when I was in a severe depression. But I also found that they actually increased that odd ~OMG option paralysis~ lack of executive function, can't make a decision anxiety state of constant fear that I'm really struggling with at the moment.

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 23 October 2019 14:03 (four years ago) link

Good luck with the doctor on Friday. Hopefully, you have one that you trust. Maybe it would help to write down all the emotional changes, with severity and regularity so you have it on hand while discussing it with them.

Not on current topic**** I just read that "thread for contemplating the serious issues raised by the Men's Right movement" and I don't know how I have never seen it before. That thread is really something. Lotta words.

Yerac, Wednesday, 23 October 2019 14:11 (four years ago) link

That's actually a really good idea! (writing down the changes) Thanks for that.

That serious issues thread is something I really have to avoid, if I want to maintain any kind of equanimity! One of those topics where just a recap is enough.

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 23 October 2019 14:17 (four years ago) link

xp yeah...

gyac, Wednesday, 23 October 2019 14:22 (four years ago) link

Hi Branwell! Sorry you're going through this; I'm afraid I don't have anything to suggest, but I hope the Dr is helpful and can help you find an acceptable option.

also if anyone does have any suggestions, chemical or otherwise, for the v well-described "odd ~OMG option paralysis~ lack of executive function, can't make a decision anxiety state of constant fear", please do share, sigh...

a passing spacecadet, Wednesday, 23 October 2019 14:24 (four years ago) link

Yeah I get overwhelmed at doctor's sometimes, and I have a tendency to just ignore or underplay pain. So I try to just state what I experienced over what length of time, the duration, etc etc. and before I go I know what I want to leave with. xpost

Yerac, Wednesday, 23 October 2019 14:25 (four years ago) link

spacecadet, is this somewhat about home ownership?

Yerac, Wednesday, 23 October 2019 14:29 (four years ago) link

oh, it's a very familiar feeling throughout my life in general, but yes, it's definitely applying to that!

there's a very long list of things I was supposed to do or even wanted to do but felt like I couldn't start without researching every option and all their possible implications, which is of course such an overwhelming and neverending concept that I just... didn't do anything at all, for ages and often forever, because I was scared of missing something or getting something wrong, I guess? Even in cases where not doing the thing at all was a worse thing to get wrong than any possible mistake.

So when it comes to something like "empty out your bank account and live with your choice for years into the future; PS if you've counted wrong then you may not have a safety net", total paralysis and dread, yes :|

a passing spacecadet, Wednesday, 23 October 2019 14:49 (four years ago) link

It's good to research to know your options and to make plans. But you can never be fully prepared so I try to live in a state of flexibility and knowing what my priorities are so that I can adapt or dig out of changing circumstances.

I almost put in the other thread but didn't want to come off as too gloomy, that you should discuss what would happen if either one of you decide not to live in the house together in the future. It happens. I don't know about your relationship but money is often the source of issues with couples. You should feel comfortable going over this with your bf before you make this big financial commitment.

Yerac, Wednesday, 23 October 2019 15:05 (four years ago) link

Oh man, buying a house is a big, big decision and there is so much that can go wrong and it is overwhelming and requires too much research. And being scared of getting something wrong makes you end up putting it off and putting it off, but things like house-buying require acting sooner rather than later, or else the price will have changed, and the interest rate will be bad, and changes happen that render your research useless anyway. Getting an independent financial advisor whose job was to make the decision for me - that was the best thing ever. (However, I did not have to pay for their services, as I worked for one. If doing it again, I would definitely pay for their services tho. It was worth putting those difficult decisions like "what mortgage should I get?" in someone else's hands.)

But... that is not the kind of option paralysis I'm dealing with at the moment. The level of executive function failure I am dealing with is so severe I can't make little decisions right now.

Actual true story: I have been sitting on a chair in the kitchen, trying to decide if I need to make lunch and then do the dishes, or do the dishes after I make lunch. I have been trying to make this decision for 20 minutes, but I keep being distracted by the thought of needing to do laundry at some point. Should I take a shower first so that I can put my current clothes in this load of laundry? But I definitely need to eat lunch before I take a shower. Wait, do I need to do the dishes before or after I make lunch? Now an hour has gone by and I still have not made the decision, and I am getting hungrier and rattier. After an hour and a half, I finally stand up, and see the groceries that I bought to eat that morning are sitting melting on the floor by the fridge because I have totally forgotten to put them away. My executive function is fuX0red.

I have *never* been this scatterbrained before (except for the two years I spent on SSRIs) but this is my life now. I'm not *like* this. This isn't who I am. I'm a "fools rush in where angels fear to tread" who blurts stuff out without thinking about the consequences. Now I spend 2 hours weeping over hurting the feelings of a fork I dropped, and I can't even move a spoon without worrying how it will all go wrong. I want my "I don't care, just do the stupid thing" drive back.

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 23 October 2019 15:38 (four years ago) link

you should discuss what would happen if either one of you decide not to live in the house together in the future. It happens. I don't know about your relationship but money is often the source of issues with couples. You should feel comfortable going over this with your bf before you make this big financial commitment.

Agreed -- and I would add, money is regularly one of the issues couples have to deal with if/when they split up. Idk if that's part of the anxiety? ... Maybe I'm just projecting. It would be something I'd want to feel secure in before in any way being that financially dependent on a partner.

sarahell, Wednesday, 23 October 2019 18:25 (four years ago) link

xp Branwell -- now I'm trying to remember anecdotes from my friends on "T" and whether that helps with what you are dealing with or has different affects.

sarahell, Wednesday, 23 October 2019 18:27 (four years ago) link

Buying a house is already an incredibly stressful thing. In the other thread, I think in the past I posted about trying to buy our first place and crying at work because the mortgage company kept screwing up the documents and requesting additional last minute funds and we were scrambling and I already had given up the lease on my apt. If you and your partner are not in sync it's going to be even more of a nightmare. And whatever place you end up with you will always have a couple of days of buyer's remorse. Just push through if this is what you want and make the best decisions you can with the information and resources you do have. Our place in brooklyn was kind of a shithole and we lived in a complete construction zone for a year and had absolutely no money for anything other than the house. But it all eventually worked out very well.

Yerac, Wednesday, 23 October 2019 19:13 (four years ago) link

Excellent. I think I've possibly started having hot flashes, so I might join you in that strange country soon, Branwell.

Also, my bf is getting a pre-nup because of his house and business assets, which are solely his, and not that I have any assets but I guess my 401k and stuff, too. No drama associated with it but then again we don't live together or jointly own anything.

Basically there's just a lot of variety of options and all of them are valid! There's not one way to combine your finances or w/e.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 23 October 2019 19:46 (four years ago) link

Wait IO you’re getting married??!!!??

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 23 October 2019 19:56 (four years ago) link

I...hmmm. We are probably going to get legally wedded so that C can have health insurance, basically. I was holding out for the EU-country citizenship but it turns out you have to learn Polish and live in Poland for 3 years to even apply so that's probably a no-go.

Things we are not doing
* Living together
* Banking together
* Changing any names
* Changing anything
* Having a wedding
* Having anything...until maybe next summer? Probably in MI so look for the invitation in uh July I guess?

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 23 October 2019 20:00 (four years ago) link

He had a possible cardiac thing a few weeks ago and it was really a wake-up call for both of us, I think. He won't go to the ER to get referred to a cardiologist because his annual deductible is $4k and no services are covered on his lowest level of ACA plan which still costs him over $300 a month. I'm not into sanctioned marriages by either church or state, but I also choose not to let my partner die because I don't like the system.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 23 October 2019 20:03 (four years ago) link

I have *never* been this scatterbrained before (except for the two years I spent on SSRIs) but this is my life now. I'm not *like* this. This isn't who I am. I'm a "fools rush in where angels fear to tread" who blurts stuff out without thinking about the consequences. Now I spend 2 hours weeping over hurting the feelings of a fork I dropped, and I can't even move a spoon without worrying how it will all go wrong. I want my "I don't care, just do the stupid thing" drive back.

I'm kinda dealing with this right now as well ... I think it might not be the SSRI but the anti-anxiety drug I take in addition to the SSRI? I feel way lazier than I used to. But ... I am way less irritable, angry, and neurotic about petty things and things that really aren't my problem or responsibility. So, overall, I feel like this is a positive change for me, but at least once a day I find myself saying, "what was I looking for again?" or "what did I come in here to do?" and it's a "wait, I am not that person! wtf!" But, it does make me realize what it is like to be someone who is "not like me" and I feel like it has given me more empathy and humility.

sarahell, Wednesday, 23 October 2019 20:04 (four years ago) link

Xp - Love, your style! Happy for you to get exactly what you want. I’ve known >1 happy couple who don’t live together ❤️😀❤️😀❤️

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 23 October 2019 20:10 (four years ago) link

I've known plenty of unhappy couples who do/did live together!!

sarahell, Wednesday, 23 October 2019 20:11 (four years ago) link

Nahhh I wish you all the best, in orbit ... I realize I am celebrating almost exactly 10 years of being uncoupled. and it is also the bday of the shitty dude mentioned upthread.

sarahell, Wednesday, 23 October 2019 20:24 (four years ago) link

Celebrate! I'm not mad! I wouldn't be getting legally married if I didn't have to! Not gonna lie, it's been giving me anxiety for MONTHS, possibly even years that I've been avoiding the issue. But I had to really confront some of my fears and...there was a moment when he called me from the car and said in a weird voice, "I don't feel good. I think my heart is bubbling and I can't really breathe."

....

Spoiler alert after a lot of discussion: It didn't really fit a heart attack but it was definitely something. To be determined.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 23 October 2019 20:29 (four years ago) link

eesh, fingers crossed all is ok, io.
I've been married 15 years and am just about thinking of getting a joint bank account, but would agree you need to be explicitly on the same page, APS.

kinder, Wednesday, 23 October 2019 20:42 (four years ago) link

congrats dudette! (also providing healthcare to a partner is a good enough reason to get married. I don't give a shit about marriage but at the same time I don't give a shit about it so I also don't give a shit about divorcing if I want to.)

yeah, prenups are very worthwhile to protect each party and set expectations even for oddest things. We do have one joint account to pay for joint bills, activities, trips, etc. and then we have our own separate accounts with our own money. We've lived together for long stretches of time and lived apart for long stretches of time, each of us has see-sawed in who makes more or less money and we on our own try to make everything even. The apt in ny is only in my name and the apt in chile is only in his name. Relationships are always evolving but we never have serious disagreements because we talk through everything and big decisions are mutual decisions. And it helps to really like each other personally.

Yerac, Wednesday, 23 October 2019 20:53 (four years ago) link

In that other thread where I was talking about the couple of 10+ years who have completely separate finances, still venmo each other money for, like, buying takeout and are trying to buy their first house together, this would be totally fine except one has been complaining to me for 10+ years about being the only one buying toilet paper and dish soap and how the other one is stingy. Ugh. I told him he has to make peace with it or move on.

Yerac, Wednesday, 23 October 2019 21:05 (four years ago) link

eep, best wishes to you + o/h, io

I don't think the plan is for a general joint account - at least, I hope it isn't! just for paying the mortgage out of, and maybe household bills (at the moment we've split the utility bills in a fairly arbitrary manner but I think it works out about even)

living apart sounds good but I do go a bit mad if I'm on my own in the evenings. maybe I want a "granny flat" so I can hide away or open the door and call it all the same living space depending on how I feel that day

to Branwell, way back: oh yeah, my paralysis extends to some quite mundane things too*, but that does sound extreme as a recent development, and all the more so if it's left you feeling not like you! hope the Dr helps

(* on at least one occasion I've spent so long trying to decide whether to eat something from the cupboard for lunch or to go to the shop and buy something more interesting that it's suddenly evening and too late to be having lunch at all - though these days it would do me good to forget to eat more often)

a passing spacecadet, Wednesday, 23 October 2019 21:10 (four years ago) link

I'd love to be able to be with my bf but still live in my own place. I only really moved in with him because he lost his job and was about to be evicted and he has 2 kids, and I couldnt sit by and let that happen.

...4 years later its all kinda stuck like that now.

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Wednesday, 23 October 2019 23:47 (four years ago) link

Congrats, well wishes, good luck, or whatever phrase best conveys friendly acknowledgement and positive vibes towards your news, in orbit!

Branwell with an N, Thursday, 24 October 2019 07:46 (four years ago) link

one month passes...

I thought I was feeling physically, mentally, and emotionally depleted. Sure enough, I have my period. HOW I wish I'd just go through menopause already!

Anne Hedonia (j.lu), Tuesday, 26 November 2019 19:08 (four years ago) link

LOL, the menopause is basically 2 full years of nonstop PMT.

Branwell with an N, Tuesday, 26 November 2019 19:42 (four years ago) link

I have literally tonight just started 2 different kinds of hormones. (I was supposed to start sooner after I saw the doctor, but she breezily said, "start on day 1 of your next period" and it's like LOL, menopause - who knows when that will be? Two weeks late, that's when.) I have no idea how this is going to affect me and I'm feeling deeply, deeply weird about it. (LOL, what if it turns me into a cis?)

Branwell with an N, Tuesday, 26 November 2019 19:43 (four years ago) link

I am not looking forward to the menopause -- I figure I've got at least 5 years -- partly because after the menopause is when all the cancers kick in.

sarahell, Tuesday, 26 November 2019 19:48 (four years ago) link

I got a new gyno in a spanish speaking country so I have been having my spouse come with me to all my appts because I'm not sure I will be able to communicate well enough for what I need. So it's like, making sure he can relay that I have new painful rectal cramps when I have to poop during my period and new lower back pain during ovulation and my period. But then the gyno ended up having gone to school in Virginia and spoke perfect english which I found out while in stirrups. He still had to chaperone the transvag ultrasound and mammogram though. Anyway, fibroids!

Yerac, Tuesday, 26 November 2019 20:25 (four years ago) link

Fibroids were the cause of my uterus eviction, which I which I'd done sooner. Like, when I was 16.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Tuesday, 26 November 2019 21:29 (four years ago) link

i started back on hormonal bc to hopefully get a grip on my pms issues
so far so good but it has only been like a week

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 26 November 2019 21:31 (four years ago) link

i am through to the other side of menopause (it was not at all an easy transition, especially the chronic anxiety) and i think i’ve never felt better. i love it. it’s so underrated.

estela, Tuesday, 26 November 2019 21:31 (four years ago) link

I think I may be perimenopausal, at least that is how I explain the fact that my brain is getting mushy.

The other day I was thinking "oh god I'd be so fucked if I had to do organic chemistry again!" then I'm like wait there is zero need for me to do organic chemistry again ever in my life, what does it matter.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Tuesday, 26 November 2019 21:33 (four years ago) link

how I explain the fact that my brain is getting mushy.
i looked at my grocery list today and it said "green beens"
it didn't occur to me to blame my hormones but maybe it's a sign i'm getting stale

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 26 November 2019 21:37 (four years ago) link

my anti-anxiety meds make my brain mushier -- i had to change them last year (what I was on before did not have that effect). On the one hand, less anxiety, on the other, I actually can't remember what all the businesses were on the block of Grand Ave. between Broadway and Webster St. in 2001.

sarahell, Tuesday, 26 November 2019 22:01 (four years ago) link

"oh god I'd be so fucked if I had to do organic chemistry again!"

I do remember about half dozen of my housemates in college expressing feelings of fucked-ness re organic chemistry, and they had fresh 20 year old brains!

sarahell, Tuesday, 26 November 2019 22:06 (four years ago) link

q, i just did a search through this thread and did you manage to obtain pics of the uterus eviction when you had it done?

Yerac, Tuesday, 26 November 2019 22:13 (four years ago) link

Oh damn I did not! I wish I had. Apparently the thing was the size of a 3 month pregnancy. Fibroid babbies.

I do have pictures of the inside of my left knee joint from recent arthroscopic surgery. The ortho pointed out "crab meat appearance" of some articular cartilage and damn if that was not the perfect descriptor.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Tuesday, 26 November 2019 22:50 (four years ago) link

https://sextile.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/ferrari-sex-life.jpg

...not that I'd know what to do if I had either...

(Do not read if you hate me. I've had alcohol for the first time in...several days, and I'm having all these...honest feelings. Also, I'm reminded of being an adolescent and imprinting on Charles Dana Gibson's more strong-jawed male characters. I can't even.)

Anne Hedonia (j.lu), Thursday, 5 December 2019 23:47 (four years ago) link

HI DERE

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 17 December 2019 15:44 (four years ago) link

HI!

tokyo rosemary, Tuesday, 17 December 2019 16:40 (four years ago) link

hidere!

Yerac, Tuesday, 17 December 2019 16:43 (four years ago) link

Sup!

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 17 December 2019 16:51 (four years ago) link

👋🏻

glindr jackson (gyac), Tuesday, 17 December 2019 17:00 (four years ago) link

Good afternoon.

As it happens, I was not only getting my period, but coming down with a cold. While I'm mostly physically recovered, mentally and emotionally I'm still depleted.

Anne Hedonia (j.lu), Tuesday, 17 December 2019 17:19 (four years ago) link

Schönen Tag aus Berlin!

Ja, ich bin jetzt deutsch.

Branwell with an N, Tuesday, 17 December 2019 18:35 (four years ago) link

Word, Roxy

I also have a cold, jlu. Feel better :(

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Tuesday, 17 December 2019 22:00 (four years ago) link

I think I may be perimenopausal, at least that is how I explain the fact that my brain is getting mushy.


Omfg. This. I thght it was stress of divorce. Maybe that too. But I’m 46. Argh. Not that I care ab menopause. But all the symptoms. Blergh.

nathom, Tuesday, 17 December 2019 23:13 (four years ago) link

I'll be 46 this week. Divorce can certainly cause brain mushiness IME. It gets better with time. <3

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Wednesday, 18 December 2019 00:07 (four years ago) link

Yeah. Sleep deprivation. I haven’t slept properly in two years. I fucking hate it.

nathom, Wednesday, 18 December 2019 17:05 (four years ago) link

i take drugs. sleep is great. I am a sleep evangelist.

sarahell, Wednesday, 18 December 2019 20:12 (four years ago) link

i take antihistamine sleep-aids all the time now. not benadryl, the other one. store-brand unisom. like the 90s commercial said, it's non-habit forming! otherwise i'd be sleeping every other night like i used to.

forensic plumber (harbl), Thursday, 19 December 2019 01:24 (four years ago) link

I fall asleep very quickly but I also wake up super quickly, which kind of sucks. I started needing to wear an eyemask so I won't wake up with light. I also started keeping around melatonin this year.

Yerac, Thursday, 19 December 2019 01:43 (four years ago) link

three weeks pass...

Nobody ever tries to fix me up with anyone, and no one ever asks me "Why aren't you married/don't you have a boyfriend?" Does that mean the universe has mysteriously but indelibly marked me as an old maid?

Life is a banquet and my invitation was lost in the mail (j.lu), Tuesday, 14 January 2020 01:37 (four years ago) link

My friend told me to stop contacting musician. I did. For an hour. Back to flirting. This is not gonna end well. Fuck this. Makes me feel crap and great at the same time.

nathom, Tuesday, 14 January 2020 10:26 (four years ago) link

J.Lu no guys messaging you? Facebook is like Tinder for me. Very weird. 🙄 I got three dick pics in about two weeks. Christ.

nathom, Tuesday, 14 January 2020 10:27 (four years ago) link

My friend told me to stop contacting musician. I did. For an hour. Back to flirting. This is not gonna end well. Fuck this. Makes me feel crap and great at the same time.

― nathom

my experience in such situations is that the "crap" considerably outlasts & outweighs the "great" :(

revenge of the jawn (rushomancy), Tuesday, 14 January 2020 15:12 (four years ago) link

I know I know. :-(

nathom, Tuesday, 14 January 2020 15:17 (four years ago) link

xxpost Guys don't message me. I've never gotten a dick pic, unsolicited or otherwise. And in my current headspace, I'm convinced that this is another symptom of some mysterious mark of old maidishness.

(The more rational explanation is that I somehow maintain boundaries and self-respect of a nature that repels fuccbois. The problem is that I seem to also repulse the more decent and mature specimens of the gender.)

Life is a banquet and my invitation was lost in the mail (j.lu), Tuesday, 14 January 2020 16:54 (four years ago) link

I've never gotten one either, jlu, and I did online dating for over 10 years although not on Tinder. Yeah I was gonna say, maybe they are correctly reading your level of intolerance for bullshit. Although I was primed for all the bullshit in those years, and I put up with a lot of nonsense. But no dick pics.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Tuesday, 14 January 2020 17:24 (four years ago) link

I thought people only fix up other people in movies?

I have also never received a dick pic unless it was from a gay friend sending me porn for discussion.

Yerac, Tuesday, 14 January 2020 17:57 (four years ago) link

I don’t take offense at these pics. And they quickly realize it doesn’t impress me. They flirt and I don’t mind. But I rarely if ever engage. I have quite a few who have shown interest. But eh. Especially when it’s based on my love for music. Except now this one guy. Don’t know how this escalated so quickly. We’ll see where it goes.

nathom, Tuesday, 14 January 2020 18:23 (four years ago) link

Guys don't message me. I've never gotten a dick pic, unsolicited or otherwise

if it makes you feel any better (or worse) one of nathom's 3 recent ones is from the same person I got one from a number of months ago -- I would be shocked if he wouldn't extend the gesture to you as well ...

sarahell, Wednesday, 15 January 2020 08:02 (four years ago) link

🤮

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 15 January 2020 13:53 (four years ago) link

Lol. Yep. 🙄 I was not impressed.

Decided not to obsess over married musician. Even when he tells me how much he loves me, asks what I want for our first dinner,... I decided, fuck it, stop obsessing and see this as a really great friendship. He is suuuuper sweet.

nathom, Thursday, 16 January 2020 22:44 (four years ago) link

https://i.imgur.com/rVC4huj.jpg

I thought if I never got that first cat I couldn't become a crazy cat lady, right? Life, uh, found a way. This is Baby, one of my mother's cats, and she is a SPOILED BRAT. She constantly yells to be fed, tries to help herself to anything I'm eating or drinking, and bit me on the nose one morning when I wouldn't get up and feed her.

So I suppose it's appropriate that I'm feeling the effects of what I assume is perimenopause--my last period didn't properly end so much as diminish to a trickle over the last two weeks. I suppose I ought to contact my doctor, but I expect to be told it's part of the Mysteries of Menopause, and can't be treated other than with powerful hormones and/or major surgery. I don't even mind it that much, except I continue to live in hope of finally meeting a man who DOESN'T retreat when I try to show interest, and maybe getting laid once more.

[Nathom: My instinct is to tell you to stay away from married men. But I've never known what to do with men, other than keep them at arm's length.]

Life is a banquet and my invitation was lost in the mail (j.lu), Thursday, 16 January 2020 23:16 (four years ago) link

Oh wow that’s a beautiful cat!!!

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Thursday, 16 January 2020 23:24 (four years ago) link

She sheds enough to make a new cat every three days. But she has surprisingly few hairballs for such a longhaired cat. And I had to physically remove her from my computer desk to make this post. But sometimes I'll be watching a movie on my laptop, and she'll snuggle up between me and the computer and purr.

Life is a banquet and my invitation was lost in the mail (j.lu), Friday, 17 January 2020 00:01 (four years ago) link

three weeks pass...

Just want to say that is a beautiful tortoiseshell cat! Ours is similarly bratty and demanding, but she’s so cute I can’t hold it against her. She’s tiny and bullies everyone in the house, including her brother, who’s twice her size.

Bumping cos I’m sure we’ve done this before but think I have accumulated even more shit last time. Want to discuss what people carry around with them day to day cos my mother picked up my bag the other day and was shocked at the weight of it. So yeah, in terms of my literal baggage:

- water bottle (stainless steel)
- foldaway reusable coffee cup
- 7 different lip balms
- portable charger
- 4 cables to charge this plus every other device I have
- 2 plugs
- Music player(I can and do listen to music on the phone but this holds more and I use the phone for sampling). Plus I’d rather use my phone space on pictures.
- face wipes
- moisturiser
- the usuals (keys/wallet/phone)
- hairbrush
- paracetamol
- tweezers
- sometimes a kindle
- sometimes my headphones (usually I wear these)
- deodorant
- tissues
- menstrual supplies

My mother thinks this is a ludicrous amount of stuff BUT as a commuter who is forever on packed and noisy trains, to me most of this stuff is essential, esp if delayed. Plus on more than one occasion I’ve been able to help someone out with a charge, so useful not just to me.

Tell me about the stuff you carry for day to day survival, even if just not to make me feel like a terrible hoarder?

hyds (gyac), Tuesday, 11 February 2020 18:07 (four years ago) link

Btw j.lu if you don’t have an undercoat brush for her already you should get on, it’s the best way to groom her of hairs shed and ours absolutely loves it (though probably because I’m paying her attention).

hyds (gyac), Tuesday, 11 February 2020 18:08 (four years ago) link

i bought a giant purse so i can throw anything i want in there - the large stuff (like shoes and soda cans) gets taken out when not necessary, but the rest just sort of accumulates in the bottom.

really enjoying seeing the guys (some non-guys have been brave enough to post, but really it's mostly guys) pontificate on whether or not "physical attractiveness" is important over in that other thread

you know my name, look up the number of the beast (rushomancy), Tuesday, 11 February 2020 18:21 (four years ago) link

I work from home a lot, and when I work elsewhere, I drive there -- though I don't keep much in my car because of potential theft. Just wanted to preface this list in a way to in no means make you feel like a hoarder

- house keys
- car key
- cigarettes and lighter
- wallet
- spare tampon
- two different lip balms
- one lipstick
- handkerchief
- car registration paper
- phone
- iPod
- one or two pens

sarahell, Tuesday, 11 February 2020 18:27 (four years ago) link

xpost that seems like a lot of extra stuff but if you use it and you are fine carrying it around, keep on!

I can't carry a lot in my bag anymore because it starts to annoy my lower back. So even the compact umbrella gets left behind unless it will be raining hard.

wallet, keys, phone
tampons
pens
comb
reusable tote
headlamp
emergency face mask (they handed these out at work)
kindle
one lip balm
2 loose emergency advil in my wallet

I should probably add a small bottle of spf in there now that I am thinking about it.

Yerac, Tuesday, 11 February 2020 18:30 (four years ago) link

I keep a comb by my computer and use it on Baby when it occurs to me to do so. She loves the attention. But that doesn't keep her from yacking up hairballs on the rug.

Standard items in my purse: Wallet, phone, personal keys, office keys on a lanyard, 2 folding reusable shopping bags, sunglasses in a case, contact lens case in a small designated coin purse, tampons in a small designated coin purse, lip balm, gum, bus pass (in a leather holder with an emergency bill hidden inside), a handkerchief, a tangle of pens and emery boards, and probably the receipt from my last restaurant meal. I've taken to carrying a second (canvas) bag, to hold a couple more reusable shopping bags, an umbrella, a book and/or a magazine, and my lunch if it's a weekday and I don't have my gym bag. I have long bus rides most days and must have something to read.

I am feeling adolescent in the worst way. I am longing to lash out in some way, and don't know what to do because I have always been such a good girl. Officially I don't take Valentine's Day "and other Hallmark-driven holidays" seriously, but there's a fuckton of sour grapes underneath that.

Life is a banquet and my invitation was lost in the mail (j.lu), Tuesday, 11 February 2020 18:32 (four years ago) link

i bought a giant purse so i can throw anything i want in there - the large stuff (like shoes and soda cans) gets taken out when not necessary, but the rest just sort of accumulates in the bottom.

really enjoying seeing the guys (some non-guys have been brave enough to post, but really it's mostly guys) pontificate on whether or not "physical attractiveness" is important over in that other thread


I’ve looked like twice, I’m not sure reading it is relevant to my interests iykwim (though I was glad to see emil.y post there).

I’m jealous of how big a bag would be to allow shoes!

hyds (gyac), Tuesday, 11 February 2020 18:38 (four years ago) link

@Yerac what is a headlamp in a non-miner context?!

hyds (gyac), Tuesday, 11 February 2020 18:39 (four years ago) link

I like having my hands free when I need a light so I don't like using the light on phones. I like to have it in case like, the subway goes out and have to walk in the tunnels. That is my fantasy use case. Realistically, I have used it when I went walking and got lost and stuck in someone's random field at night and in parking garages when someone has had engine trouble and we had to pop the hood. Also I pull it out if the lights go out at home so I can do stuff that needs two hands. Like I made fresh pasta once while wearing it.

Yerac, Tuesday, 11 February 2020 18:45 (four years ago) link

I originally bought it for camping. But it's very useful for any situation you could need someone else to hold a flashlight for you.

Yerac, Tuesday, 11 February 2020 18:46 (four years ago) link

the thing about my purse is that i _also_ still carry around a bookbag from before my transition and i keep other things (laptop, headphones, lunch, papers) in that

i'm just not really sure that a lot of the guys in that thread are in a place where they can unpack all the gendered baggage around personal presentation, and i figure i will just leave them alone to do their thing rather than jumping into yet another thread with my Trans Shit.

you know my name, look up the number of the beast (rushomancy), Tuesday, 11 February 2020 18:48 (four years ago) link

xxp your life posts always intrigue me and this hasn’t changed that at all.

@rush yeah it’s very different. I posted in some other thread once about where I was getting attention from men around 11/12 (not a brag; they were nonces), so it’s something you sort of get to be aware of younger than you should :|

hyds (gyac), Tuesday, 11 February 2020 18:55 (four years ago) link

i had one (but didn't always have it when needed) when I did A/V and video projection stuff -- it was super useful to troubleshoot cabling and signal flow and computer/tech settings in dark rooms.

sarahell, Tuesday, 11 February 2020 19:08 (four years ago) link

xxp - when I was "butch" I didn't carry a purse or bag because I viewed that as too femme-y, so I would keep all the things in my pockets -- yes, I rocked the chain wallet. So, I think because of gender stuff I am used to not carrying many things in my now gender presentation acceptable purse

sarahell, Tuesday, 11 February 2020 19:19 (four years ago) link

I have a commuter backpack that I use to travel sometimes. I think about using it instead of a purse. But I remember wearing backpacks when I was younger and one time at a show I felt a dude behind me start to open it up and that probably has put me off from wearing one day to day. I totally caught him while he was in the middle of doing it and he fucking put his hands up in apology.

Yerac, Tuesday, 11 February 2020 22:43 (four years ago) link

Ha, I have tried to lighten up my extremely butch black pleather and chrome ~manbag~ because I've been having back issues, but I still regularly carry

-hat
-headphones (also double as noise excluders)
-lunchbag
-reusable shopping bag
-menstrual product
-antibacterial wet wipes
-dry tissues
-umbrella (I need to replace this as it is a quite large and heavy German one, not a tiny lightweight British pocket one)
-hand cream
-change purse
-comb
-pen
-pencil
-ibuprofen
-allergy tablets
-Wallet
-work pass
-matches (I don't even smoke, they're just useful)
-oyster card in special holder

I know that I say this every time we have this conversation, but the big difference isn't the amount carried, it's spacial awareness. I see cis men on the Tube carrying backpacks easily three times the size of my messenger bag. But the thing is, I am always aware of where my bag is, and how much space it is taking up, and I take care to move it so that it does not impact those around me. But I get routinely beaten up and bruised by cis men who act in total disregard, not just of what space *they* are using, but even more disregard of the fact that they are carrying something the size and weight of a spare tire behind them, and it fucking hurts if you turn around without checking if anyone is in the way. Even on the most packed Tube trains, I am rarely hit by women's purses (and when I am, I am usually quite convinced it's probably deliberate. But I've been sideswiped by those enourmous backpacks on an empty train.

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 12 February 2020 07:17 (four years ago) link

- phone
- wallet
- makeup bag with the essentials
- tiny hairbrush
- planner
- sunglasses case with sunglasses
- headphones
- lint roller
- pen case with a variety of pens
- small muji notebook
- two hair clips
- one tampon
- keys

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 14:49 (four years ago) link

I'm not even touching the attractiveness post which I see has died an aborted and fitting death at the bottom of SNA.

Like I made fresh pasta once while wearing it.

― Yerac, Tuesday, February 11, 2020 6:45 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

Yerac, you are the best. ilu

Personally I recalibrate my bag size & contents p much every day as needed for whatever I'm doing, tending toward as small as possible. None of my possessions are a headlamp, sadly.

For Valentine's Day, my bf named a hissing Madagascar cockroach after me at the Bronx Zoo, because "candlelight fades, roses wilt, but roaches are forever." So as you can see this whole relationship thing is nothing but lovey dovey smooches all the way.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 15:19 (four years ago) link

Now I’m just imagining Shirley Bassey singing Roaches are Forever

tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, 12 February 2020 15:23 (four years ago) link

There are also socks. Cockroach socks. I'm not sure I can stand to wear them tbh.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 15:32 (four years ago) link

Wear it as part of Tracy Turnblad cosplay?

tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, 12 February 2020 15:40 (four years ago) link

I in no way understand that reference, although Google says something about Hairspray?

I'm not working right now but I might be a little bit depressed/in recovery/lazy? I'm not really doing enough but also it just rains every day and I have 5 years of going-to-horrible-job to make up for. My couch is getting a workout.

Here's one for the thread: I've been using the same cheapo Jordana lip gloss for like 10 years because it was the perfect non-metallic peach color and my skin doesn't react to it. A couple of years ago it was discontinued, so I ordered cases, like 50 tubes, and it has lasted me until now. All other lip glosses make my lips chap and split. I can't use Rose's or Burt's Bees or shea butter or any mainstream drugstore glosses I've tried. WTF AM I GOING TO DO?

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 15:48 (four years ago) link

My best-ever favorite perfect mascara was also discontinued some years ago (Fresh Supernova). What are these beauty brands trying to DO to me??!

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41vSjHLhL0L._SX425_.jpg

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 15:53 (four years ago) link

xp which one, in orbit?

hyds (gyac), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 15:56 (four years ago) link

The product line was called Lip Out Loud. You could find it on ebay etc for a while but I think it's all gone now. I've looked at the ingredients list and tbph it's FULL of chemicals, but somehow it worked for me!

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 16:57 (four years ago) link

There should be a skincare/cosmetics app where you input the product names of things your skin hates or loves and the app spits out a list of ingredients they have in common so you can figure what you need to avoid

just1n3, Wednesday, 12 February 2020 19:18 (four years ago) link

those are very cute cockroach presents.

I can only use Rose's (the original formula). I feel like the super cheapo revlon creme lipsticks and maybe Labello/Nivea used to be ok for me. I've been on some forums where people have been trying to figure out the common ingredient in balms and lipsticks that people are allergic to. I thought it was mineral oil at first.
That app idea is very good. I've been on an endless cycle of the skin around my mouth being very bad because of the layers of spf I have been wearing.

Yerac, Wednesday, 12 February 2020 19:26 (four years ago) link

Is it sorbet?

hyds (gyac), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 19:34 (four years ago) link

BTW?

hyds (gyac), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 19:36 (four years ago) link

Best spf I’ve used is the Mimitika one for face.

For lips - overnight I use Dr. Bronner’s ALL ONE ginger and orange lip balm (ALL ONE). Lip stuff tends to make my mouth go mushy and horrible but that one works really well for some reason. Daytime, I got a free one of these, which I will likely never be moved to replace because it’s so expensive for what it is, but it is amazing: https://www.cultbeauty.co.uk/odacite-adventurine-kiss-lip-serum-vitamin-c-coq-10.html

tangenttangent, Wednesday, 12 February 2020 20:21 (four years ago) link

i had been trying to use up these two bottle of la roche posay spf 50 anthelios line but then I realized they aren't water resistant. So have been having to put other stuff on top.

Yerac, Wednesday, 12 February 2020 20:31 (four years ago) link

xp IT IS BTW OMG am I going to end up importing my $2 lip products from the EU?? STAY TUNED.

Thank you! :D :D :D

There should be a skincare/cosmetics app where you input the product names of things your skin hates or loves and the app spits out a list of ingredients they have in common so you can figure what you need to avoid

― just1n3, Wednesday, February 12, 2020 7:18 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

Heeeeey! I just stumbled over https://www.ewg.org/skindeep/ which might sort of do that? I'm searching now, it seems somewhat limited in what brands it carries but you can look for any ingredient by which brands include it.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 20:34 (four years ago) link

I don't get these guys. Someone just sent me this link and I thought all these guys end up just going to the philippines. I just took his compatibility questionnaire which is like a choose your own adventure.

http://findingmyrepublicangoddess.com/

Yerac, Wednesday, 12 February 2020 20:46 (four years ago) link

for those of you who don't remove hair from your legs, or who go a while without doing so -- how does that interact with dry skin stuff during winter? Better or worse?

sarahell, Wednesday, 12 February 2020 20:48 (four years ago) link

Hmm I'm getting stuck on the shipping address, it won't let me proceed.

xxp Yiiiiiiiiiiiikes

xp I shave extremely inconsistently and I apply lotion after every shower. No issues. Why, what's happening for you?

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 20:49 (four years ago) link

i think it just means that i need to use lotion -- like i generally don't use it, except like immediately post shave, or during the few days after when the stubble comes in. It's just itchier -- but I don't think it means my skin is drier, just that it is more noticeable feeling-wise?

sarahell, Wednesday, 12 February 2020 20:51 (four years ago) link

xxp He's only interested in Republican Goddesses who are English-fluent, which I admit is more than I expected. He doesn't seem like the type to be interested in a talking woman.

sarahell: Huh. Maybe I never get to that point because I do use lotion after every shower even if I didn't shave, which I only do like 1x a month?

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 20:53 (four years ago) link

there is so much to ridicule on this site

"I seek an extremely intelligent woman with a university degree or equivalent strong education. But if you are university-educated, you were not fooled by (or you have subsequently recovered from) academia's incessant indoctrination of liberal, Democrat, progressive, atheist, feminist, global-warming/climate-change and socialist/Marxist/communist propaganda.

I'm grateful to have learned advanced skills at emotional processing from my main spiritual teacher, who is a living enlightened master from India. As a result, I have become nonjudgmental (most of the time) and rarely get angry (maybe 3 times per year and just for a few minutes, then it's gone). He also taught me extreme patience...

For strong male function, I take herbs that work better than Viagra and are entirely healthy.

My two greatest living heroes are my spiritual Guru and Donald Trump. In very different ways, each has hugely contributed to my personal development including my understanding of the world, the problems."

Yerac, Wednesday, 12 February 2020 20:56 (four years ago) link

when i shave i don't use shaving cream, just a little bit of soap? I also am very bad about moisturizing my legs. But my legs never itch?

Yerac, Wednesday, 12 February 2020 21:08 (four years ago) link

some of the pictures that come up in response to the questions are just ... whoa ... this is ... not as grotesque and painful as watching videos of animals in pain ... but it's pretty grotesque and painful

sarahell, Wednesday, 12 February 2020 21:08 (four years ago) link

he has a bit of Harry Anderson going on.

Yerac, Wednesday, 12 February 2020 21:16 (four years ago) link

I only shave my legs periodically and in the summer but in winter I lotion after every shower and exfoliate w one of those scratchy towels in the shower.

I like the Body Shop olive oil body butter but it’s so expensive — I found a decent off brand substitute that’s like 4 packages for the price of one Body Shop package! Lotioning is annoying but absolutely required. DNW itching/dry skin 🤮

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 21:16 (four years ago) link

i have scabs that make me look vaguely tweakeresque

sarahell, Wednesday, 12 February 2020 21:23 (four years ago) link

Yikes, and also, ouch!!

I'm working on C to get him to use lotion. His arms and legs also get so dry that they spontaneously break out in scabs? And look all papery. He seems immune to any discomfort but it practically hurts me to look at it so I applied some pressure. He's much more hydrated-looking now.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 21:28 (four years ago) link

I know it's a tiresome Twitter convention, but it really makes me feel that meme: "Are the _____s okay?" for any group of ppl. Like are the straight (white) mens okay? You don't have to effectively harm yourself through neglect, you know...taking care of yourself is a valuable life skill.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 21:31 (four years ago) link

i mean, it's also been cold, so that it isn't like anyone can see them -- also trying to work out whether some of it is sock-related? I'm not super sensitive to fabrics in terms of itchiness, but I am somewhat sensitive.

sarahell, Wednesday, 12 February 2020 21:32 (four years ago) link

I am very annoyingly a social grooming person. Anything I put on myself, I put on F. I can smell when he's dehydrated which is I know is me being gross and also annoying when I constantly push water on him. But yeah seriously, straight white men are a whole mess. xpost

Now that you bring it up when I take off socks I sometimes do get super itchy around the elastic part.

Yerac, Wednesday, 12 February 2020 21:36 (four years ago) link

xps to in orbit: getting stuck how? Do you have anyone living in Europe that you could arrange for them to act as intermediary?

hyds (gyac), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 22:29 (four years ago) link

in orbit they had 5 in stock all of which are now on their way to me and shortly to you!

ljubljana, Wednesday, 12 February 2020 23:35 (four years ago) link

WHAT YOU DIDN'T!! lol I was going to get around to it! Oh both of you are just the loveliest, thank you!!

ljub, tell me what the shipping costs, please! Or come back for coffee, which would be even better. <3 <3

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 13 February 2020 00:09 (four years ago) link

teamwork!!!

Yerac, Thursday, 13 February 2020 00:11 (four years ago) link

All in for coffee when I'm next back there or when you undertake your LONG overdue Northern Soul pilgrimage.

ljubljana, Thursday, 13 February 2020 00:21 (four years ago) link

Ok, I started that questionnaire on the Republican Goddess and

We are not a match.

Thank you for your time.

Good luck to you!

Goodbye (no kiss)

tokyo rosemary, Thursday, 13 February 2020 04:05 (four years ago) link

Very happy with the way this has played out, discontinued products are the worst and it’s such a joy when they turn out to be available in another market.

Whenever I remember to do it, the Superdrug own brand lip products are good for overnight use. Esp cos most are cheap enough to really slather on. I had the We ❤️ Shea Butter one on last night and it was good; the little relieving tin (green) has tons of lanolin in and is similarly good. Both cheap and really good!

hyds (gyac), Thursday, 13 February 2020 10:19 (four years ago) link

yiiikes at Choose Your Own MAGA Bride

also boo for discontinued cosmetics. for some reason my body hates most deodorants, and previous brands that worked for me either got discontinued or came out with a new recipe that no longer worked, and it is not good having to start the search all over again and worry that you may never find a new one.

(I've got one and a spare now from my current good brand but I noticed I couldn't see it in the shop last time I went down that aisle, buh)

taking care of yourself is a valuable life skill

I think I need to repeat this as a mantra, because I am not very good at remembering to do all the little positive things, all the way up from moisturising, flossing, taking vitamin pills etc up to eating better, going for walks and remembering to do useful/educational/cultural things (or just a little more housework to make the place look borderline liveable, ha argh) instead of just sitting like a potato in front of the internet all evening. It's a good mantra!

(ok, fuck the housework part, all the rest is good, and I shall use this good mantra only for good things)

a passing spacecadet, Thursday, 13 February 2020 11:09 (four years ago) link

I don’t toot my horn very casually but self care is where I am a Viking. It’s also how I know something is very very wrong if I start to let it idle or stop altogether (see fall 2018)

Who else will take care of me if I don’t?? No one. Gotta do it myself.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 13 February 2020 13:28 (four years ago) link

It is my only survival skill tbh

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 13 February 2020 13:29 (four years ago) link

You are a goddamn superhero. I respect the hell out of your boundary-setting and self-care stills.

Early this fall/winter, it got to seem like too much work to take showers anymore, because it was easier not to take care of the body that had to go to the job and receive the physical & emotional damage. Easier not to acknowledge having a body. Glad that's over.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 13 February 2020 20:11 (four years ago) link

Xps I don’t trust anything endorsed by EWG - they’re shady as fuck and their “science” is often bullshit. I’d be interested in something designed by respected cosmetic chemists, though.

I’m the opposite of being a Viking about self care. I *want* to and *like* being moisturized, and having clean hair, and shaved pits/legs, but when I’m feeling down (which is often) it feels so hard to do any of it.

just1n3, Thursday, 13 February 2020 20:21 (four years ago) link

Oh, sorry! I don't know anything about EWG but on your advice I cancel and rebuke them and all their works.

But also hey let's not re-frame self care as being all about hygiene stuff, although it can be! It's also being intentional with our time, and boundaries, and feeding ourselves, and having the right dosage of the right people around, and making sure we can get enough of what we need, whatever that is. I mean we all know that and no one is saying that it's not, I just wanted to say it. Face masks are great but they are only "self care" if they are to you in that moment for your own reasons.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 13 February 2020 20:27 (four years ago) link

I am fairly Vikingly when it comes to being intentional with time and setting/maintaining boundaries, but the eating when I'm probably hungry and using lotion on dry skin stuff -- that is where I'm a ... Saxon? Pict? one of those olde tribes that were swiftly conquered by other tribes with better weapons, armor, and attention to the importance of supply lines in protracted warfare?

sarahell, Thursday, 13 February 2020 21:08 (four years ago) link

I’m really bad at housekeeping in the best of times but taking care of ME (not my surroundings) is second nature. I think it’s a product of neglect tbh. Not that I was left wanting for food/shelter but no one was ever looking after me. I had to do it myself.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 13 February 2020 21:56 (four years ago) link

it's kind of crazy how many parents left their grade school kids alone all day. latchkey kid club.

Yerac, Thursday, 13 February 2020 21:59 (four years ago) link

I think the shitty cultural thing I never learned was that I was “supposed to” take care of others around me before myself. There was never anyone else there so that was not a lesson I ever learned! It worked out for me in one way I guess. Protected me in some ways.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 13 February 2020 22:10 (four years ago) link

i was raised with the expectation that i would grossly neglect my personal hygiene and spend all my time in pursuit of fleeting hedonic pleasure, but also that i was profoundly bad and evil for doing so

so if something feels good i tend not to do it; there are a lot of really rewarding and beneficial things i avoid doing because i'm "too tired" and would rather, i don't know, say stupid shit on the internet

you know my name, look up the number of the beast (rushomancy), Friday, 14 February 2020 00:46 (four years ago) link

Just bumping for something utterly trivial: after years of searching, I think NYX’s #thisiseverything lip balm might be the best one I’ve ever used? Lips stay soft and smooth long after it’s worn off as well. This sounds like an ad but honestly, if something works it works.


Barely five months later and I found out this has been discontinued, ffs! Now to buy whatever I can online I guess

hyds (gyac), Thursday, 20 February 2020 17:44 (four years ago) link

THE WORST.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 20 February 2020 23:18 (four years ago) link

I thought that endometrial ablation procedure two years ago was supposed to drastically reduce my periods? I'm practically back to my old heaviest flows. I don't even cramp noticeably, it's just a hassle to keep up and replace my latest soaked-through tampon (especially when I have long bus rides to and from work).

And I assume I am not the first to notice that classical performance of femininity requires pretending that normal body phenomena aren't happening to YOU (sweat, periods, body hair)?

Life is a banquet and my invitation was lost in the mail (j.lu), Thursday, 5 March 2020 17:38 (four years ago) link

Yep! Basically you should pretend you don't have a body or specifically a vagina that exists in any context other than when someone else wants to fuck it and then it goes away and doesn't cause them any problems.

It's all nonsense, of course, and fatal to believe on any level. It's annihilation. I try to push back in a tiny way by telling everyone I'm having hot flashes so could they please open the window?

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Sunday, 8 March 2020 17:53 (four years ago) link

<3 that’s absolutely the spirit

estela, Sunday, 8 March 2020 20:12 (four years ago) link

I have been getting night sweats for the past 6-8 months ... probably medication side effects and not "the change" ... I end up having to do more laundry though ... on the plus side, it is a rationale for buying more clothes

sarahell, Monday, 9 March 2020 18:40 (four years ago) link

I thought I was through mine - went 3 months without a period over last year - theryve come back now and theyre worse than ever, and Im constantly fatigued and forgetting things a LOT and dropping stuff and it is exactly how my mum had it (she called it "the dropsies" for years) and I already hate this.

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Tuesday, 10 March 2020 04:02 (four years ago) link

I've been on hormones for 4 months now. (Which is a weird thing, in and of itself, like, if you want the trans hormones, you have to go on a waiting list for several years and be examined by a billion cises going "but are you *sure*!?!?" but if you're an AFAB of a certain age, just look at a doctor and they will shove you out the door with a prescription.) And they did help with a lot of things.

And now I am coming off hormones cold turkey, because there are nationwide shortages, and no chemists anywhere in my neighbourhood even seem to have any in stock any more? I mean, it should be a national scandal how an entire class of medications can just disappear from the shelves, and this has been known to be going on for nearly a year - but literally no one gives a shit because the two groups it affects are AFABs over the age of 40 and trans people, and our government sees these groups of people as completely disposable non-persons?

I'm fucking furious (and oh, hey, the hormones were one of the few things that ever helped with the anger) and also I'm so tired I just want a nap.

Branwell with an N, Tuesday, 10 March 2020 08:57 (four years ago) link

from over here in an informed consent state in america, yeah it absolutely is a complete fucking outrage. the nhs has a systemic policy of denying (through artifically restricting access) what is proven to be the most safe and effective treatment for gender incongruence, which is an easily and cheaply treatable condition which, if not treated, has serious health consequences for those affected, up to and including death. i understand why nobody has gone full larry kramer over there about it yet - there are significant costs to being larry kramer - but my feeling is that it's the only way shit is gonna change over there.

Kate (rushomancy), Tuesday, 10 March 2020 13:38 (four years ago) link

K8, you probably already know that I am just endlessly disgusted with our shitty government's endlessly shitty treatment of trans people. But this current situation goes well beyond that - like I'd honestly be the first person to say if I thought this was deliberate. But most research seems to indicate that this is sheer incompetence and government mishandling and the law of the unintended consequences and bad decisions at every stage of the supply chain:

https://members.tortoisemedia.com/2019/11/28/the-great-hrt-scandal/content.html

But the reason that no one is bothering to do anything about it, is because... who gives a shit about medication that only affects old women and trans people?!?!? Certainly not anyone in this government.

It's beyond incompetence at this point. Where, with this government, you have to start wondering if the incompetence is deliberate. But it's also exhausting to think this way.

Branwell with an N, Tuesday, 10 March 2020 15:16 (four years ago) link

i wouldn't really say that there's necessarily an overt conspiracy against trans people and afabs either, but the term "depraved indifference" tends to pop up in my darker thoughts a lot. :( the sort of people who in america if you asked them to say "black lives matter" instead would say "all lives matter" or "blue lives matter" or something like that because they can't bring themselves to say it... saying "trans lives matter" or "women's lives matter" seems like it would be difficult for a lot of people as well.

Kate (rushomancy), Wednesday, 11 March 2020 00:26 (four years ago) link

one month passes...

the posts about tara reade, y'all

this shit never ends

here 1st (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 28 April 2020 23:24 (three years ago) link

i am EXHAUSTED

here 1st (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 28 April 2020 23:24 (three years ago) link

I know. I feel for you, esp as a person who works with survivors/recovering people. I had my huge freakout about it a few weeks ago when Bernie dropped out. I read the interview and it fucked me up. Since then I’ve been stoically sending her interview to anyone I think needs to see it. Beyond that I need to shelter my brain from it bc Im vulnerable :(

Sending a ghost hug to anyone who needs it

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 28 April 2020 23:42 (three years ago) link

ive been tbh pressuring my agency to make a statement about it and some folks' reticence to do so is also demoralizing

here 1st (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 28 April 2020 23:46 (three years ago) link

like the masters tools will never dismantle the masters house yall

here 1st (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 28 April 2020 23:46 (three years ago) link

The most demoralizing thing for me is seeing people desperate to malign the survivor and deny their account/truth/reality — I can’t put myself through that over and over. It’s corrosive for me to the point of being debilitating.

Your post on fb summed it up for me entirely. The problem is YOU — the people who demand a full nitpicking to the death of the survivor. It’s awful beyond comprehension.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 29 April 2020 00:04 (three years ago) link

yes. i totally feel you on the putting yourself through it over and over. it's been taking a legit physical toll on me.

here 1st (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 29 April 2020 00:20 (three years ago) link

Kinda feeling this


...ok, but if the only time you ever seem to care about sexual abuse is when talking about it might take down one of your enemies, people might be right to accuse you of weaponizing women's oppression to suit your own ends.

— love one another (@girlziplocked) April 28, 2020

tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, 29 April 2020 00:24 (three years ago) link

it has been brutal. every day is brutal. i am just done with people, especially cis dudes, talking about reade's "credibility" as if they were the god damn judge of all the earth. is it really going to be this bad or worse until fucking november or beyond?

Kate (rushomancy), Wednesday, 29 April 2020 00:40 (three years ago) link

oh you saw the thread. christ, i don't know what to do, i don't want to ignore those toxic-ass motherfuckers but people who are that goddamn dismissive of women... i mean it literally is nearly all cis guys, isn't it? i can't bloody well say "well i am just never going to talk to a cis man again".

Kate (rushomancy), Wednesday, 29 April 2020 00:44 (three years ago) link

I told my mom that my #1 priority right now is to stay calm, keep my head on straight. Anything that tips me into dysregulation puts me at risk — and getting angry is just as bad for me as getting sad/depressed. I can’t afford to lose my balance right now because Its so extremely difficult to recover once it’s lost.

Which reminds me — if you’re not including balance activities in your exercise routine, I strongly recommend adding some.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 29 April 2020 01:01 (three years ago) link

reading these things, participating in forums, etc. rn is def a kind of self harm

but also i don't want there to be no voice in there saying what's gotta be said?

but also i literally can't do it anymore really for my own health

here 1st (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 29 April 2020 14:11 (three years ago) link

I don't know which thread that is, maybe I haven't dipped into it? I don't think I would have as much of a reaction so I don't mind getting into it except for the tedium, natch. When I feel bad, I go outside and poke at some plants or pull weeds. I guess that's my balancing act for now.

Stacey Abrams, nnoooo.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 29 April 2020 15:00 (three years ago) link

You have my support in withdrawing -- I'm relieved that people like you, who I respect, who are fighting rape culture every day, understand why I need to. It's because I need to survive if I want to keep doing the generally good work I am doing in my life. I am not garbage; I am not worthless.

When Bernie dropped out and I decided it was time to find out why everyone was using the word "rapist" so much referring to Biden, I knowingly inflicted self-harm. But I had to know. It took me ~ 5 days to recover physically, mentally, emotionally. And that's 5 days and not 5 months because I am practiced at recovering...because I have been doing it for a very long time.

Maintaining equilibrium and balance remains my #1 priority. Without it, I can't function. Shout out to my therapist, without whom I wouldn't have realized this and probably would have detonated sometime around the fall of 2018.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 29 April 2020 15:15 (three years ago) link

totally understand roxy. if it helps none of us are in this alone, just say what you need to say when you need to say it and that will be enough. i drop in and out of these conversations all the time and i'm sure it infuriates the people who have Serious Questions for me but i gotta stay healthy, you know?

i'm literally taking a sick day today because of how bad the biden thread fucked me up yesterday. my wife worries about how hard i push myself with these things, it's it's a legit concern, but i work hard to allow myself to not be perfect

Kate (rushomancy), Wednesday, 29 April 2020 15:36 (three years ago) link

If things are fucking you up to the point where you are taking sick days to recover, I would say that it's time to reassess your engagement with whatever triggered you. Honestly -- I say this from experience, which I will not detail. You're gonna have to take my word for it! :) Treating one's own triggers, whatever they may be, as potentially lethal has changed my relationship to inflammatory material.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 29 April 2020 15:58 (three years ago) link

thanks ll. it is a constant struggle for me - how much to engage, when to speak up, when to step back and take care of myself, and i don't always get it right. i definitely appreciate your encouragement, because i know i should, at the very least, be taking a break from that thread. you know how that temptation is, though!

Kate (rushomancy), Wednesday, 29 April 2020 16:09 (three years ago) link

i try to remember that there is no right or wrong -- the bottom line is that you (I, we) have no obligation to engage in any public conversation that makes us feel fucked up for days. this is what i tell myself when i feel bad for not publicly saying more than i do. i don't say much! it's better for me to protect myself and continue to contribute to society than to immolate.

i definitely know the temptation -- please take care <3

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 29 April 2020 16:14 (three years ago) link

for the record my experience of you has been that you're a wonderful person i've found that your being around here has made this site, and honestly, my life, brighter and happier on a fairly regular basis :)

Kate (rushomancy), Wednesday, 29 April 2020 16:24 (three years ago) link

hey thanks. that's what i mean about being my best self/contributing to society -- i can only be my best self and contribute to society in equilibrium. it's where i am continually trying to remain.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 29 April 2020 16:55 (three years ago) link

thank you la lechera, in orbit, and kate for your posts <3

trying so hard to stay out of the weeds

here 1st (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 29 April 2020 18:48 (three years ago) link

y'all, i'm sorry, i'm just having a real hard time letting this go

i didn't look at the thread after my last post wednesday or thursday but of course it's a huge clusterfuck, of course it's leaking out all over the board, people keep posting about it on other threads and starting new threads to Not Talk About It and the whole atmosphere around here is so oppressive and scary

i'm trying so hard to not apologize to tombot, because i don't believe anything i said is wrong, but at the same time i know what happens when you say, essentially, "see, what you just said is a perfect example of what's Wrong With Cis Men", nobody's going to take that as a constructive opportunity for reflection and learning, but i did happen to see a post he made on one of the bleedover threads and of course he's raging, which of course especially means i shouldn't apologize to him because apologizing to an angry man is exactly what i need to _not_ to

in the meantime, you know, my wife is a moderate and she gets upset about "bernie bros" and, you know, we respect each other, i do find that anybody you can name has a significant chunk of dudes following them around who "support" them by talking shit about women. she listens to and respects me, i listen to and respect her, even when we don't agree, but it's been months since i've talked to another living soul in person and throwing the biden thing on top of that... i'm a fucking wreck, is what i'm saying, an absolute fucking wreck. i guess everybody else is too. everybody has shit they worry about, shit that hits them particularly hard, this particular shit, this hits me hard, because here it is another morning, another 2 am, and this is keeping me up.

i know there are some guys here who listened to what i said wednesday morning, who took me seriously, and that's a lot of what's keeping me going right now. there's another "left" board that my wife posts about food on, that helped me out some when i was starting to come out, and i haven't been there in months but one hears things. what i hear is that the mods there have completely lost their shit and are banning everyone who calls biden a rapist. in the meantime i talked to a co-worker about this yesterday and it was a good talk, she was really kind and understanding, but she hadn't heard shit about any of this. what happens when this stuff isn't just the internet fringe? worse, what happens if what's going on now never even gets beyond twitter? people shit-talk twitter, and by "people" i mean "me, specifically", and in this case they're just _aware_ of something that most people aren't, at all.

anyway i don't think there are answers here, or at least if there are answers they're not _my_ answers, this shit isn't _my_ personal responsibility, but i needed to vent. thank y'all for being here. idk what i'd do without someone i could talk honestly about this stuff to.

Kate (rushomancy), Friday, 1 May 2020 09:00 (three years ago) link

you don't have anything to apologize for

forensic plumber (harbl), Friday, 1 May 2020 15:41 (three years ago) link

if Biden wasn’t running for president against trump, I think if this very specific situation wasn’t in play, the left’s reaction to TR’s accusations would have been a lot different. I think people are so scared of another trump term, they’ll do anything to stop it. And honestly, I get it - it’s that whole killing one person to save a million thing, to them. It sucks, and I believe TR too, but I get why people are scared to believe her. There is a lot at risk if trump wins again - RBG isn’t going to live forever and if trump gets to add another pick to the Supreme Court, this country is fucked for years and years to come.

I’m mad that it’s come down to this type of Sophie’s choice bullshit. Biden should’ve never run. This should’ve been a race between Bernie and Warren. The left should’ve united during this primary. Instead we got all this back biting and petty bullshit that left everyone bitter and pissed off, leaving a perfect spot for Biden to glide into.

I’m mad our choice is between two rapists.

just1n3, Friday, 1 May 2020 18:40 (three years ago) link

And the people saying she’s making it up bc she was vague about exactly what he did: I’d suggest they try saying aloud to their friends and family
“This guy raped me with his fingers”
“This guy fingered me aggressively without consent”
Surely I’m not the only one who would find saying this somehow more mortifying than saying “I was raped” (implying by a penis).

just1n3, Friday, 1 May 2020 18:46 (three years ago) link

if it was just killing one person? you know, honestly, i'd probably be ok with that, even if that person was me. there is a lot at stake here.

but to me? to me this isn't about tara reade, really. this is about actually doing something about rape culture, about going from "rape is bad*" to "rape is bad". i don't blame the women who are abandoning #metoo over this, i understand the pressure they're under. the cis guys, though? the things they're saying and doing, the excuses they're making, the way we get blamed and pressured into apologizing pre-emptively and making their feelings, feelings in many cases they can't even take responsibility for, our responsibility.

it's not tara reade, it's the millions before her, the vision of millions more to come, the hope that we'd reached a point where enough of us could say "no, this is not ok", that we could work together on this, and the betrayal, the ongoing betrayal, the not-unexpected but still deeply painful dashing of that hope.

i'm not putting this on the left. i'm not putting this on bernie or on warren or on the backs of anybody, _anybody_, right now except for rapists and the men who make excuses for them.

Kate (rushomancy), Friday, 1 May 2020 18:59 (three years ago) link

Kate, I'm going to say this in the kindlest, gentlest way I know how (though I am neither a kind nor gentle person by nature).

Right now, you need to go and find those good essays on Self Care (like, the Audre Lorde ones, not the ~commodification of feminisms~ ones) and read them. Like, really read them, and think about them.

Self care isn't about facial cleansers and scented candles or whatever - it is about not allowing yourself to be *broken* by the struggle. Self care can mean choosing to walk away from what feels like the most important fight in the world, because that is the fight that will break you, and there will be another fight again tomorrow, and you need to still be in reasonable shape for that next one.

I say this as someone who has absolutely been broken - to the point of my GP packing me off to the emergency room for a psych evaluation - by arguments on ILX. You have to accept that there are people you will *never* change by saying "water is wet, and the nose is commonly found in the centre of people's faces" over and over again. And continuing to keep up that argument is something that changes *you* - not them. It is CRITICAL, for your own protection, to say what needs to be said, then get out before you get broken.

I know, it feels like "letting them win" and it is so frustrating and angry-making. But you know what is also "letting them win" - is allowing yourself to be so beaten down and exhausted and broken, that you do yourself permanent damage. Because that is the point of those kind of arguments. The point IS NOT changing minds or hearts or one side making a plausible case that convinces you. The point IS breaking you. It costs them nothing to go on with the endless excuse making. It costs us SO MUCH to counter it, and they know it - they count on that disparate emotional cost in these kinds of arguments.

With that understanding in mind, self care means setting yourself a limit, and when you find yourself hitting that limit - or even getting near - bow out and walk away. The argument will still be there tomorrow. And the next day. And the next, because these things change so glacially slowly. The point of knowing when to walk away is making sure that *YOU* are still here tomorrow. And the next day.

Branwell with an N, Saturday, 2 May 2020 07:23 (three years ago) link

Thank you Branwell. I do hear what you're saying, and you're not alone in saying it. I know you're right. I'm not OK right now, and I'm trying to practice self-care, and I guess I'm having trouble with it. I don't really know how to practice self-care effectively right now.

I am having trouble figuring out how to walk away from this. I'm not in this to fight. This isn't my responsibility, I know this. I just don't know where "away" is right now. Literally or figuratively.

Kate (rushomancy), Saturday, 2 May 2020 11:29 (three years ago) link

"Away" can mean so many different things for different people.

-It can mean putting all of your thoughts into a highly charged political blog where you say everything you need to say, but never enable comments, ever.
-It can mean starting a purely aesthetic insta/tumblr/image sharing platform of your choice where you have 0 politics and only beautiful pictures that please you
-It can mean turning off the internet entirely and reading a book (up to you if you want to read something completely escapist, or something which reassures you with the righteous rage of politics you know are true)
-It can mean reaching out to someone else you know is struggling, and doing an act of caring that both lightens their load and makes you feel less helpless

Branwell with an N, Saturday, 2 May 2020 12:29 (three years ago) link

(Incomplete list, other people please feel free to add your own "away" methods and strategies?)

Branwell with an N, Saturday, 2 May 2020 12:30 (three years ago) link

I think the key is finding something that works for you and then reliably doing it when you need to. That’s not very specific obvs but I could list activities all day long and it would not solve the problem. The issue is to learn to effectively protect yourself and that’s not something a list of activities can do.
Recognizing what I had considered merely difficult times as genuine dysregulation of my nervous system was a turning point for me. You may have a different one. Hope you feel better soon.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Saturday, 2 May 2020 13:21 (three years ago) link

thanks all. this is, uh, intensely personal and private stuff. i'm not sure how much more i can say about it right now, how much i feel comfortable saying about it, but i want you to know i really do appreciate everybody here.

Kate (rushomancy), Saturday, 2 May 2020 17:13 (three years ago) link

branwell i really needed to read that post. thank you

here 1st (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 02:23 (three years ago) link

hey all, I’ve never posted on here - just wanted to say though this thread has been a lifesaver whenever I’ve needed some respite from ilx’s general... maleness.

Like right now I’m getting annoyed by the Fiona Apple thread where a dude who freely admitted not to have read a piece written by a woman still felt the need to comment on how wrong her opinions are, while of course getting her opinions completely wrong in the process because he hadn’t read the thing that she wrote. This shit is exhausting as fuck.

Roz, Thursday, 7 May 2020 10:27 (three years ago) link

It is exhausting, and jedi mind hugs / virtual cups of tea to whoever needs them.

I've got to the point where I've pretty much given up reading any ILM thread about any female artist, at all? Well, the ones who have chart success of critical acclaim, at least. And when I end up doing it, girding myself forewarned with the knowledge that the vast majority of people posting in those threads are not posting about those individual women at all; they are posting about their feelings about women performing or making a spectacle of themselves in the first place. Just filter their reactions through that - whether it's "this artist is my perfect manic pixie dream musician who can do no wrong" or "this evil attention-seeking harpie I cannot bring myself to stop staring at makes my skin crawl". If a man is criticising a woman's journalism without reading it, he is not criticising her specifically, he is just venting his ~general opinions~ on women in journalism? Which... who needs it?

LOL, something that made me actually laugh the other day - on that "do you ever self censor and how do you feel about it" thread, someone suggested there should be a thread for people to say the things they self censory, and I just snort-laughed out loud because my dude, what do you think "no boys allowed in the room" is for?

Branwell with an N, Thursday, 7 May 2020 11:33 (three years ago) link

Hello ladies, very fresh here due to constantly feeling intimidated for reasons I haven’t quite assessed but I feel safe here. I also have felt compelled for the first time to read through an entire thread and I’m not sure if that’s something to do with me or with ILX or what.

I feel completely disengaged from discussions of politics and social justice though my heart is in the right place. I understand feeling enraged to the point of psychological collapse but I don’t have that same investment. Maybe as a teenager I did. I feel I’ll-equipped emotionally to do more than observe and shake my head.

It is heartbreaking what is happening. We’re living an utter catastrophe. I feel so guilty for not being violently angry. I guess I feel sad or powerless (new feelings that just by articulating myself here I’m beginning to uncover).

I want to say Kate that your emotional vulnerability is something I can relate to and this discussion has inspired me to maybe be a little more proactive and dig a little deeper and not be so complacent about political engagement.

very avant-garde (Variablearea), Thursday, 7 May 2020 14:11 (three years ago) link

Ill-equipped*

Carry on.

very avant-garde (Variablearea), Thursday, 7 May 2020 15:56 (three years ago) link

hi variablearea, i'm sort of taking a low-key break from the board right now, we'll see how long it lasts, but welcome, whatever your feelings, whatever your experiences are, i'm glad to see you here.

one of the things that does have me feeling sensitive, having slept on it some, is these experiences all being, you know, extremely new to me. it's not how i was raised, and i do feel super conflicted about it. i was saying last friday, i was the victim, for 40 years, of a terrible mistake, and as a result of that awful mistake i was treated and told that my experiences and perspectives were worthwhile, that i was a valuable person.

that's not an experience a lot of cis women have had, and i do find that unfortunate, i do deeply regret it. i haven't learned to put my feelings on a shelf like that. it's not something i _want_ to learn. and people are telling me, you know, honey, if you want to stay alive in this world, you need to learn how to let that stuff go, even though it's not fair or right and we all know it's not fair or right, that's just how things are, that's what we need to do. i understand that, i relate to that, i preach that - do what you need to do to survive, that's the message i spread to anyone who will hear it, over and over and over - but i am struggling with it right now, struggling really hard.

Kate (rushomancy), Thursday, 7 May 2020 16:27 (three years ago) link

you know, honey, if you want to stay alive in this world, you need to learn how to let that stuff go, even though it's not fair or right and we all know it's not fair or right, that's just how things are

I don't know how much of that is a gendered thing, though? Like a lot of cis-men I am close to also grew up that way. White ones, to boot! I feel like younger women (millennials and younger) have received less of that "training"? I do remember several years ago going to a work meeting with a colleague (she was about my mom's age at the time -- in her late 60s) and the meeting was with a consultant about redesigning our organization's website. And the consultant (a Boomer white cis-male) was super condescending to the point where I kinda called him on it. I think I pointed out that some of my housemates and classmates when I was in my early 20s were some of the first wave of web designers and programmers and I was pretty familiar with a lot of these things he was acting like I couldn't possibly know. Anyway, when we got back to the office, my colleague was upset that I wasn't polite to the consultant and that I should have just let him be condescending. And she said basically, "I know it's frustrating, believe me, I have been dealing with this type of thing since the 1950s, and it was even worse back then!"

sarahell, Thursday, 7 May 2020 19:19 (three years ago) link

idk. i get what you're speaking about, but this particular experience is something i haven't ever experienced when presenting as male but does show up with particular frequency when presenting as female. "self-care" as fatalism, as surrender, i hate to bring up beyonce but that whole "don't hurt yourself" thing. that's different from the situation where asshole boomer guys (women too, but particularly guys) won't ever shut up, don't understand appropriate boundaries, and can't take accountability for their own emotions, which is a cross-gender issue and is more of an implicit "look just give it a couple more years and he'll probably be dead" thing than "this is the way the world has always been and you will only hurt yourself trying to change it" thing.

Kate (rushomancy), Thursday, 7 May 2020 22:59 (three years ago) link

That is the opposite of what people are actually saying in this thread? And please stop with this "honey" business because I am finding that quite patronising.

What people are saying is:
-choose your battles wisely
-know what your limits are and stop before you hit them
-perserving yourself is a radical act
-conserve your energy to focus on things that will actually affect change

Stuff that I've found genuinely changes things:
-working personally on changing attitudes and systems in your workplace, home, school, etc.
-getting involved with political pressure groups that work on changing the system from inside
-getting involved with grassroots groups that work on removing the system from outside
-donating money if involvement is not possible
-volunteering time if money is an issue
-one on one discussions with individuals who seem like they are actually open to learning

Stuff I've found is a self-destructive waste of time:
-arguing endlessly with fools on the messageboards

Living under oppressive systems is hard. It takes a long-haul approach. It's so seductive to believe that you, single-handedly, overnight, are going to overturn 5000 years of oppression that all those other ~ladies~ have just been sitting around just fatalistically just accepting, because oh those complacent little ladies, they don't know or understand their own conditions and experiences, not like *you* do. Oh wow, have I been there.

Something else that people who are raised as men take for granted: that women / other AFABs exist to provide endless unconditional succor and support and fix their feelings for them when they get hurt. AFABs know you can never take this for granted - the reason feminists talk about Sisterhood so much is because we experience it so rarely. We try to support one another, because women are traditionally supposed to be comfort-givers, not comfort-takers. But if you have been raised as a comfort-taker, and insist on going around bashing your head against brick walls, safe in the knowledge that someone else will always be a comfort-giver and tend to your damaged head - there's a point where you have to stop and consider whether you are actually dismantling the brick wall with your head, or just demanding more resources from the people who are trying to dismantle the brick wall safely, slowly, and without causing too much injury to themselves because no one is going to fix them when they break?

I will regret hitting submit post the moment I do it, but here we go.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 8 May 2020 07:48 (three years ago) link

It's so seductive to believe that you, single-handedly, overnight, are going to overturn 5000 years of oppression that all those other ~ladies~ have just been sitting around just fatalistically just accepting, because oh those complacent little ladies, they don't know or understand their own conditions and experiences, not like *you* do.

Understanding one’s feelings and understanding one’s conditions are two different things.

very avant-garde (Variablearea), Friday, 8 May 2020 12:22 (three years ago) link

Being able to express oneself is also another matter completely.

Also also, Demonizing women for “fatalistically accepting” their conditions of oppression is just as bad as condemning a woman for being, weirdly, too emotionally invested.

very avant-garde (Variablearea), Friday, 8 May 2020 12:28 (three years ago) link

But maybe I’m missing your point?

very avant-garde (Variablearea), Friday, 8 May 2020 12:33 (three years ago) link

Branwell - fair enough. I don't feel like what you took from my post is what I was trying to say. I take responsibility for my own poor communication skills. I'm trying not to dig myself in any deeper here. Right now I'm hypervigilant. Right now anything anyone says to me feels like an attack. Right now everything I see around me is a brick wall and I'm getting a little claustrophobic.

Kate (rushomancy), Friday, 8 May 2020 13:17 (three years ago) link

Instantly-regrettable response to instantly-regrettable post: I'm not hoping for someone to come in and take care of me. I'm hoping to kill myself in the process.

Kate (rushomancy), Friday, 8 May 2020 13:20 (three years ago) link

I've got to the point where I've pretty much given up reading any ILM thread about any female artist, at all?

Fair dos. I never came here for the music talk so it's easy for me to abstain.

Hi Roz! Hi variablearea!

Neither here nor there: I've been having increasingly bad back spasms since last fall/winter, until I'm really worried that it's a sign of something bad (don't have insurance right now so I haven't gotten checked out). Yoga/pilates actually makes it worse, and tons of core strength-building hasn't made it any better, but just in the last few days I've had a lot of success with foam-rolling my legs and hips and butt so maybe the problem isn't actually IN my back after all??! Crazy. Off to torture myself again rn.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Friday, 8 May 2020 13:39 (three years ago) link

Stuff that I've found genuinely changes things:
-working personally on changing attitudes and systems in your workplace, home, school, etc.
-getting involved with political pressure groups that work on changing the system from inside
-getting involved with grassroots groups that work on removing the system from outside
-donating money if involvement is not possible
-volunteering time if money is an issue
-one on one discussions with individuals who seem like they are actually open to learning

Stuff I've found is a self-destructive waste of time:
-arguing endlessly with fools on the messageboards

OTM! This has basically been where my head / energy has been at for the past year or so

sarahell, Friday, 8 May 2020 19:29 (three years ago) link

sarahell, I've been loving getting your emails lately! I'm on the mailing list even though the state-level stuff wouldn't apply to me/us just because I love seeing the organizing & direct support happening. Respect.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Friday, 8 May 2020 19:47 (three years ago) link

aww thanks!

sarahell, Friday, 8 May 2020 20:43 (three years ago) link

Bodies are weird. My husband has had bad knee problems for a few years and recently discovered the fix - through physio - was actually in his hamstrings and other non-knee areas.

just1n3, Saturday, 9 May 2020 06:28 (three years ago) link

I spent two years suffering a tremendous headache, insomnia, and crippling anxiety thinking they were all separate problems that needed to be treated as such (and of course were intractable). Turns out they were all side effects of a medication I had been taking for a separate condition.

very avant-garde (Variablearea), Saturday, 9 May 2020 13:06 (three years ago) link

So yeah, bodies are weird, medicine’s weird, idk man.

very avant-garde (Variablearea), Saturday, 9 May 2020 21:14 (three years ago) link

does/did anyone else get super emo and sobby at the end of their period? like, I am actually pretty chill before, but the last day and the day after, I am "the messy bitch that lives for drama"

sarahell, Sunday, 10 May 2020 17:16 (three years ago) link

No - unfortunately my one big emotional response related to my period is extreeeeeeeeeme irritability the week before it starts. Like, do not breathe wrong around me because I WILL angry-sigh at you.

just1n3, Sunday, 10 May 2020 20:44 (three years ago) link

I’m not on my period but I’m literally crying everyday!

very avant-garde (Variablearea), Monday, 11 May 2020 01:13 (three years ago) link

I’ve always assumed that people who are suffering emotionally shut down and sleep all day and cry and wallow in self pity, but I’ve learned that isn’t necessarily the case. I admire people who can sublimate their energy into a productive task that distracts them from their feelings.

very avant-garde (Variablearea), Wednesday, 13 May 2020 12:04 (three years ago) link

some ppl suffer emotionally and have dependants

kinder, Wednesday, 13 May 2020 12:05 (three years ago) link

sometimes the two are linked!

kinder, Wednesday, 13 May 2020 12:06 (three years ago) link

Sorry that was not meant to sound that snarky

kinder, Wednesday, 13 May 2020 12:13 (three years ago) link

It did not sound snarky.

very avant-garde (Variablearea), Wednesday, 13 May 2020 13:12 (three years ago) link

Depressed people, anxious people, people who are depressed and anxious can all be very productive members of society, successful adults. At the risk of sounding prickly, duh?? I mostly object to the “wallow in self pity” part. That’s insulting :(

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 13 May 2020 13:16 (three years ago) link

I guess just, right now, I'm thinking about my own response to emotional distress. I don't mean to put people into two camps. I mean yeah, I wallow in self pity sometimes, I know not everyone else does. On some level I knew that, but I've never been close to someone who presented as my complete opposite in that respect and that's all I was reflecting on.

very avant-garde (Variablearea), Wednesday, 13 May 2020 13:21 (three years ago) link

I do see what would be insulting about assuming that everyone who suffers emotionally suffers in exactly the same way. I see that that is ignorant and reductive and just plain dumb. But what about wallowing in self-pity is insulting?

very avant-garde (Variablearea), Wednesday, 13 May 2020 13:29 (three years ago) link

I guess I did not make it clear in my first post that I was talking about myself. Apologies.

very avant-garde (Variablearea), Wednesday, 13 May 2020 13:33 (three years ago) link

But what about wallowing in self-pity is insulting?

The implication that people who are "suffering emotionally" are "wallowing" is in itself an insulting way to describe emotional suffering. I'm not getting into this 19 min before my therapy appt. Respectfully urging you to think twice before posting stuff like that. If you were talking about yourself, make that clear.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 13 May 2020 13:44 (three years ago) link

If you were insulting yourself, I also urge you to think twice about that characterization -- it's inaccurate and unfair.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 13 May 2020 13:45 (three years ago) link

I am not the type to insult myself. I did not, prior to this conversation, think twice about the term "wallowing", nor did it occur to me that it could be insulting.

I know that emotional suffering is not a choice. But in my situation, what I'm thinking about is the fact that I have been inconsolably crying multiple times a day for two weeks? because my life and my relationship are changing and I feel trapped between a rock and a hard place. I decided today, both because I'm so tired of crying, and because my partner can't do anything about it and it is making the tone of these days not what I would like them to be, that I am going to stop being so sentimental and improve myself instead of "wallowing".

This is what was behind what I said when I said that I admire people who can sublimate their emotions into something productive.

very avant-garde (Variablearea), Wednesday, 13 May 2020 14:21 (three years ago) link

I think there are times for all of that. You gotta feel your feelings, you know? But I personally know that "sentimentality" makes me put off important decisions and delay the necessary. Cut the cord imo. Congrats on your new choice and new direction! I hope it is satisfying and moves you in a way that is good and helpful.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 13 May 2020 17:38 (three years ago) link

The implication that people who are "suffering emotionally" are "wallowing" is in itself an insulting way to describe emotional suffering

idk -- as someone who has suffered from clinical depression and anxiety for over 30 years, there is a wallowing aspect one can choose as a coping mechanism. For me, it's like using circular logic to perpetuate the depressed/anxious mental state and at my worst, it's like it sucks in all of these other things to strengthen the circular pressure of the suffering ... like the classic, "i will never have a loving romantic relationship because i am a horrible person" ... which then will suck in all of these other "facts" (e.g. i am fat) and "feelings" (e.g. i am too judgmental and a bad listener) so that new bad things are added to the spiral and for me to feel bad about ... and I just let the spiral keep circulating and getting stronger, rather than something like: getting up and having a delicious beverage, taking a bath, putting on different music, walking outside (or at least a different room) ... like I choose to let the spiral continue to circulate, and that is how I interpret "wallowing" -- it's something we do, and we can choose to not do it, though depending on what's going on your life/brain/body, that choice could be really fucking hard to make.

sarahell, Wednesday, 13 May 2020 18:36 (three years ago) link

I do feel like there is a healthy amount of wallowing one can engage in. It just so happens that this is the first time I'm doing it in the presence of someone who matters to me, and it's affecting them to the point that it's tiresome. Since I care, I have to decide to disengage with that admittedly really indulgent and sort of satisfying practice of weeping copiously and just decide that things are not going to be as bad and scary as my wrong brain has convinced me they will be.

I think what la lechera was suggesting is that i was making a blanket statement about people who suffer emotionally, and that people who really can't help the way they feel are just too weak to suck it up and feel better.

very avant-garde (Variablearea), Wednesday, 13 May 2020 18:44 (three years ago) link

and of course i do not subscribe to that, despite how i may have come off

very avant-garde (Variablearea), Wednesday, 13 May 2020 18:46 (three years ago) link

like the classic, "i will never have a loving romantic relationship because i am a horrible person" ... which then will suck in all of these other "facts" (e.g. i am fat) and "feelings" (e.g. i am too judgmental and a bad listener) so that new bad things are added to the spiral and for me to feel bad about ... and I just let the spiral keep circulating and getting stronger, rather than something like: getting up and having a delicious beverage, taking a bath, putting on different music, walking outside (or at least a different room)

I used to do the exact same! Maybe ultimately I'm anti-wallow though because I would do all the negative self talk and then end up at, "Welp since I'm obviously unloveable and a failure, might as well do something of some practical value" and go fix a bike or something. It was like a fatalistic acceptance of my lack of other kinds of worth but I could at least do a thing.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 13 May 2020 18:50 (three years ago) link

this is the post i was reacting to

I’ve always assumed that people who are suffering emotionally shut down and sleep all day and cry and wallow in self pity, but I’ve learned that isn’t necessarily the case. I admire people who can sublimate their energy into a productive task that distracts them from their feelings.

― very avant-garde (Variablearea), Wednesday, May 13, 2020 7:04 AM (six hours ago)

Glad to hear you were not intending to make a blanket statement; it read that way to me.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 13 May 2020 18:53 (three years ago) link

"Welp since I'm obviously unloveable and a failure, might as well do something of some practical value" and go fix a bike or something. It was like a fatalistic acceptance of my lack of other kinds of worth but I could at least do a thing.

I love you!!! This has been me for the past 2 months.

sarahell, Wednesday, 13 May 2020 18:53 (three years ago) link

Glad to hear you were not intending to make a blanket statement; it read that way to me.

Honestly, it would read that way to anyone.

very avant-garde (Variablearea), Wednesday, 13 May 2020 19:02 (three years ago) link

happy birthday in orbit!

sarahell, Tuesday, 26 May 2020 17:31 (three years ago) link

two weeks pass...

How are you all going?
Just wondering if you've ever had a potential employer try to directly/indirectly find out about if you have children or plan to have children during a recruitment interview (and if so, how you dealt with it)? Nothing to do with me, and I've only ever worked in workplaces where the interview process has strict guidelines (and just to be clear, it's totally against the law here to ask about children, pregnancy, childcare etc) so it'd be an absolute no-no to even think about broaching it. A friend mentioned something that's niggling her from before lockdown and it set me wondering if people still try this.

kinder, Tuesday, 9 June 2020 21:00 (three years ago) link

I think it's against the law?

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 21:44 (three years ago) link

Not that people don't ask in sly ways or try to pry the info out coyly but I don't believe it is legal to ask that in an interview.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 21:44 (three years ago) link

Yeah, maybe I worded it weirdly but it is against the law here. I just don't know what one would do if asked either directly or in a roundabout way, other than to say 'er, that's not appropriate'. Or if you felt any comment contributed to not getting the job.

kinder, Tuesday, 9 June 2020 22:05 (three years ago) link

"Do you have any... other... commitments in [location you would have to move from to take this job]?" Asked of me a year or so ago in an interview for a lectureship.

ljubljana, Tuesday, 9 June 2020 22:34 (three years ago) link

Oh, that's a good example.

kinder, Tuesday, 9 June 2020 22:35 (three years ago) link

Ask a roundabout question, get a roundabout answer.

Other commitments? “Not to speak of”
Lol
I hate probing questions that aren’t totally straightforward. If you have to squeeze something out of me, chances are it’s not coming out. That’s for the birds.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 23:37 (three years ago) link

She arrived a bit early for the interview and the receptionist type person (older woman) was chatting to her about what area she'd come from, who she lived with etc - newly married - and said something like 'ooh, will babies be on the way' or something annoying like that - friend sort of made polite noises like 'oh, who knows!' (she actually doesn't want kids!) but now she's not sure if that was taken one way or another or passed on to the hiring staff - she didn't get the job. I'm sure it's nothing but it pisses me off that you get asked this even in semi-informal situations.
In my workplaces the receptionist would have been firmly told not to ask such things but I get the feeling this was a more informal place of work.

kinder, Wednesday, 10 June 2020 13:09 (three years ago) link

one month passes...

A mess of extremely tedious work PLUS temperatures pushing towards 100 PLUS my monthly curse? How much more Monday can it get?

Life is a banquet and my invitation was lost in the mail (j.lu), Monday, 20 July 2020 14:13 (three years ago) link

Every time.

Every. Single. Fucking. Time.

Posting to ILX is a collossal act of self harm, and I should know better than to expose myself to that, even when I'm trying to help someone else.

I no longer pass for "no boys" and don't really feel comfortable here, but every time I set foot on a "Queer" thread, I have to be reminded that I'm not welcome in that space.

Branwell with an N, Tuesday, 28 July 2020 14:19 (three years ago) link

Branwell -- even if you feel you "no longer pass" -- I would like to think you are "grandfathered" into this thread (sorry for punny)

sarahell, Tuesday, 28 July 2020 18:01 (three years ago) link

also, this thread reminds me that ilx is easier to understand as a bunch of individual people with specific histories and traumas and preferences, and it isn't really representative of much that is larger than that ... especially when you get into more "niche" areas, including queer ilx, non-male ilx, regional ilx threads, i love cars ... I guess what I'm trying to say is, you shouldn't feel unwelcome in those spaces because of your gender identity/sexuality -- it is probably related to specific posters and how they react to certain things -- which in the case of threads related to marginalized identity issues, is likely coming from a place of trauma and may be unfairly projected on you (which sucks -- I've been there -- not on ilx, really, but IRL).

sarahell, Tuesday, 28 July 2020 18:32 (three years ago) link

"no boys" is dated af and speaking for my ?gender-y self, boy energy is for sure welcome on this thread. cis man horseshit clearly has plenty of threads already

i echo the sentiment of grandfathering in but i also know i can't decide where you feel comfortable, but i hope you do continue to post here and feel comfy doing so Branwell. i also 100% agree about the self harm piece, my god. i mostly avoid ILE and post on rolling music threads -- which feels so weird because ILE used to feel like LESS of a misogynistic shithole than ILM to me, but now i mostly feel like music nerd misogyny is the familiar kind of misogyny that i can navigate well with minimal energy, whereas i don't even fucking know what traumatic shit i might encounter on ILE in a given day

here 1st (roxymuzak), Thursday, 30 July 2020 12:55 (three years ago) link

oops didn't mean to gloss over that you said "don't really feel comfortable here" meaning this thread, sorry about that, i misread and thought that meant ILX in general

here 1st (roxymuzak), Thursday, 30 July 2020 12:57 (three years ago) link

I'm not really OK right now, so I'm not sure I'm in the best space to be posting. (I've had terrible insomnia the past two nights, and one of the big contributors to that stress is the whole ~ghosts of ILX pile-ons past~, like I am never going to be truly free from the PTSD-like aftereffects of being at the bottom of ILX pile-ons so many times?)

I'm really tired of serving as a repository for other posters' feelings about "difficult" "women", about older women, about their mothers, about "terfs" etc. etc. ad nauseum forever and ever amen.

I feel so completely distanced from even the category of "woman" right now - to the point where I feel like I am taking up space intended for others just by posting on this thread - and yet I cannot seem to ever escape the misogyny attached to other people's assocations at just the sight of me? The prickle on the back of the neck, when stepping into a thread that you feel should not be so hostile, yet the lashing out of hostility always takes me by surprise, and I feel like I'm stupid for not avoiding the blow, even though I anticipated it? To the point where it genuinely feels like self harm, like "duh, of course there was going to be a lashing out and then a pile-on, there always is!" while still recognising that's... well, that's kinda victim-blamey? What did you expect, talking about being AFAB in a 'Queer' thread?!?!?

But I will never be free from the stench of AFAB in other people's minds? Even knowing, there *isn't* really any "woman" on me, except in my memory and my past. "Woman" doesn't even have a smell, that's just misogyny. But the smell doesn't exist on me, it doesn't exist on "woman" as a concept, it exists in other people's minds? I don't know if that even makes sense.

I think the title is fine, like "No Boys" really puts it quite succinctly, in a kind of "everyone but cis dudes" energy. Because no matter how boy-like I feel, 30 seconds on the Queer thread will remind me that I will never, ever get to be A Boy.

I'm tired of talking about misogyny all the time. But I'm even more tired of encountering it. I just wanna talk about shoes and haircuts and some funny thing that once happened to me in a gay leather shop in Berlin, right?

I don't really enjoy rolling threads on ILM because that's just not how I *think* about music? Like, I tend to like A Thing, and I get really really deeply obsessed with That Thing, and no other Thing, even Things that are broadly similar to the Thing in genre, will quite do? I don't like ~bands that kinda sound like Einstürzende Neubauten~ or ~industrial kinda bands~ or whatever, I like Einstürzende Neubauten, and nothing else has the Neubautenyness I dig?

I wish I could stop this word vomit; I know that long word-vomit posts are a big part of why people react so negatively to me. I wish I could just zing and be done, but that's not a mode available to me, because if I don't specify and hedge and qualify every part of my argument, someone will pick out the bit I got wrong and tear me to pieces. I'm bored of being back in that place of fear and phobia and self-pity again.

What do I actually *like*? Cemeteries and Caryatids and Victorian angel memorials, that's what I'm into right now. Anyone wanna see some creepy Victorian angels?

Branwell with an N, Thursday, 30 July 2020 14:49 (three years ago) link

Sure! I could be into caryatids! I have photos somewhere of ones from this little side temple of the Parthenon, they were cool.

(About the rest--no diss of however you need to show up, Branwell. I took it in, I have no judgement, I wish you felt better.)

I've been giving myself haircuts and I'm pretty happy with my clipper skills and also I haven't worn makeup since the beginning of the year sometime and along the way I realized I might actually like my face?

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 30 July 2020 15:01 (three years ago) link

Vienna was like, city of the caryatids, holy hell, so many caryatids, like every corner had ladies holding up something.

https://traurigedamen.tumblr.com/post/187377834776/corner-of-countless-caryatids-vienna-2019

(Vienna's caryatids are usually clothed in flowing robes; Berlin's caryatids are normally naked, like I could understand wanting to be naked in Vienna's climate, but wow don't those naked Berlinner ladies get cold?)

Self administered haircuts are something I really should get better at doing. I should invest in some clippers (like, how dare I even call myself queer if I don't own any?!?!) - is it difficult to learn how to use them?

I am glad you are feeling comfortable with your face. That's a good feeling.

Branwell with an N, Thursday, 30 July 2020 15:15 (three years ago) link

re: clippers -- depends on what you are going for?

My first clippers were inherited from my mom who had purchased them in 1969 so she could give my dad the regulation buzz cut when he was in basic training at Fort Benning ... they were a bit wonky by the time I got them and probably there was dust that had accumulated in the motor area so there would sometimes be a burning smell and the motor had a very "harsh noise" aesthetic. They died at some point in the early 2000s. I got a new pair around then (I shared them with my bf at the time who used them more than me). This pair had the full set of attachments --

easiest is to pick one attachment length and use it on the whole head -- or section of hair. I leave the top long, and buzz from the ears down around the side of my head because my hair is thick and dense and gets a bit fro-y. Note: this is the opposite of the legendary "blended haircut"

sarahell, Thursday, 30 July 2020 15:45 (three years ago) link

Vienna's caryatids are kind of sassy! I like the hand-on-hip one. "You talkin ta ME?" in NYC parlance.

I just did my 5th haircut with the clippers plus a shaper razor and I'm definitely getting better. I watched a lot of youtube videos to get started.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 30 July 2020 15:47 (three years ago) link

It's kinda the early 90s "skatepunk grrl" haircut (that I regularly gave myself since -- the early 90s) -- though I stopped clipping the undersides several years ago because the haircut had fascist connotations (fuck you Richard Spenser) but since Covid, I think it's okay now.

sarahell, Thursday, 30 July 2020 15:48 (three years ago) link

Most recent results (if this link works): https://photos.app.goo.gl/tQNRhTCwAniGuoL67

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 30 July 2020 15:49 (three years ago) link

yah!

sarahell, Thursday, 30 July 2020 15:49 (three years ago) link

You can kinda see a line along the side where I didn't blend the fade very well, but it's an improvement over the first couple of times!

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 30 July 2020 15:50 (three years ago) link

fades are tricky! ... I am sure even gabbneb would appreciate the effort lol

sarahell, Thursday, 30 July 2020 15:51 (three years ago) link

The bald spot is from an accident, it's not a clipper mishap. If I were a better stylist, I would recut my hair to be longer in the back and hide it but I like the way it looks short from the front and sides. It feels good! I like my face a lot less when my hair grows out--the high-and-tight feels good.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 30 July 2020 15:52 (three years ago) link

Haircut looks AWESOME, I actually really love the chunky look of the lines? I'm always wrestling with my stylist to give me blocky, chunky, visible lines. Seriously, I just want Dyke Hair. Fuck Richard Spencer, we had that hair first!

IS2G Berlin's caryatids are even sassier than Vienna's, like, these Damen are totally "hey babe, got a light?"

https://traurigedamen.tumblr.com/post/185614248138/grunderzeitfroufrou-berlins-sauciest-caryatids

LOL, I have to share this - I just went to the chemist to pick up my ~Hormones~ and I totally just got "Sir"-ed in the queue? When the chemist realised what I was picking up, she was *so* embarrassed and apologised profusely for it, and couldn't seem to understand why I was so absolutely delighted and overjoyed to be "Sir"-ed?

(I don't know if it's Lockdown and constantly being masked up in public, but recently I have been confusing people - in particular small children - a *LOT*. This is the third time in 2 weeks? Even though my hair is longer than it's been in years, and I haven't even been bothering with a binder coz it's too hot, I am being gendered very differently in publicly since masks became mandatory.)

But yeah, hair changes face shape so much. I had a pompadour last summer, and I looked like a different person?

Branwell with an N, Thursday, 30 July 2020 16:07 (three years ago) link

Not gonna lie, for years I've been getting my haircut models from fuckyeahandrogynousgirls.tumblr.com.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 30 July 2020 16:26 (three years ago) link

I've been looking at clippers, but I'm convinced that if I start cutting mine own hair I'm going to end up looking like this:

https://64.media.tumblr.com/e1ac862671bc69d09f70b8fb2cec23f2/tumblr_pvtl1yTQAW1rjw8sqo1_500.gif

(I mean, why not, I've been shamelessly ripping off their other haircuts for years.)

Branwell with an N, Thursday, 30 July 2020 19:30 (three years ago) link

I think Sarahell is right that if you get clippers with guides, you can choose the length you want, and where. I have faith in you!

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 30 July 2020 19:51 (three years ago) link

I feel like I am taking up space intended for others just by posting on this thread

. . . and yet you do it anyway? When you are stomping around here, it impacts MY sense of "safe space." So I'm out until you are.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Thursday, 30 July 2020 19:56 (three years ago) link

Quincie, I’ve been unfailingly polite to you for the past several years. In return, you’ve thrown gendered insults and accusations.

I am convinced that there is literally nothing I can do to make you feel any differently about me. So, you know, you are welcome to do whatever you need to do to feel comfortable. Bye!

Branwell with an N, Thursday, 30 July 2020 20:13 (three years ago) link

I’m looking at some Wahl clippers with brightly coloured attachments in rainbow colours. Sarahell, In Orbit, what kind do you use? Do you have opinions on Wahl as a brand? GQ rated them “good for beginners” which I need.

Branwell with an N, Thursday, 30 July 2020 20:25 (three years ago) link

I have Walh corded (not cordless) clippers, sadly with plain old black plastic attachments. Would have preferred more festive colors but there ya go. They work great! Have no other experience with alternatives tho.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 30 July 2020 20:39 (three years ago) link

fades are tricky! ... I am sure even gabbneb would appreciate the effort lol

― sarahell, Thursday, July 30, 2020 11:51 AM

i loled

here 1st (roxymuzak), Friday, 31 July 2020 13:44 (three years ago) link

also no one's "stomping around"? discomfort does not mean you aren't safe, and the calls might be coming from inside the house

here 1st (roxymuzak), Friday, 31 July 2020 13:46 (three years ago) link

Roxy, please leave it.

I appreciate the sentiment, but really? The information that someone dislikes me so intensely, that I make them uncomfortable? Is valuable information. It helps inform my interactions with them. I would rather just know if someone feels that way. Like, no, I do not feel it is my place to leave an online space that is one of the few long-term supports available in my life right now? But also, I can be aware of that discomfort, and make a decision not to engage with or trouble that person in other spaces.

I am having ~so many feelings~ about the musician / groupie / "girls as treats" power structures being discussed in multiple spaces - like, I feel I have so much to add to that conversation? Like, how can we do this in a way that lampshades the power structures in the entertainment industry as a site of fantasy - but that doesn't a) shame the desires and fantasies of the "girls" in question (how do I recconcile these conversations with the fact that 14 year old me would totally have fucked the shit out of, e.g. David Bowie, had I ever had a chance?) yet b) does not indulge those lazybad 'any man in this position would do the same' generalisations. (Honestly? And people think *I'm* a misandrist?) Abuse is a function of power. Misogynist structures exist to keep power in the hands of some genders, but not others. It's nothing inherent in the category of "man" or "men". But desire is a form of power, and the entire entertainment industry is based around the commodification of fans' desire.

But wow, given recent experiences, do I not want to risk venturing anything on open ILX that could be open to being misinterpreted.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 31 July 2020 14:01 (three years ago) link

got it <3

here 1st (roxymuzak), Friday, 31 July 2020 14:03 (three years ago) link

I am having ~so many feelings~ about the musician / groupie / "girls as treats" power structures being discussed in multiple spaces

same though maybe different contexts (maybe not idk). i've been following the epstein stuff really intensely and it took me a while to figure out how badly and directly it was impacting my mental health. i have OCD which (often) thrives on feelings and thoughts of not having control, and my god the layers of having no control involved in that thing and also involved in just living in the world as a survivor, as a woman, as a poor, whatever. i've not been doing great mentally lately in general, and returning to ilx is probs like, a manifestation of that and also categorically not helping it

here 1st (roxymuzak), Friday, 31 July 2020 14:08 (three years ago) link

also i'm sorry i even brought that shit up (epstein) in this space, i tbh don't even want to talk about it and hope we can go back to talking about haircuts

here 1st (roxymuzak), Friday, 31 July 2020 14:10 (three years ago) link

yeah same :( i also self-destructively engage with this material that gives me waking nightmares and then wonder why i feel so awful. i would throw myself into work but that is very tentative at the moment and with the social isolation of ronatimes i just have very few places to turn.
i should avoid turning to threads about sexual harassment and abuse! that is what i should do.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 31 July 2020 14:13 (three years ago) link

Aw, I'm sorry you're having those feelings and experiences, Roxy, even though I'm always happy to see you on here, I know this is not always the greatest space for any of us. But also, this is one of the few spaces (the "no boys" thread) where we can always engage with people who are just like, "yeah, I get it, I totally get it!" and that is such a huge relief, and source of comfort and solidarity that helps counteract all the doomscrolling and the online OCD scratching at the bad shit (I get it, I so get it!)

LL, I always appreciate whenever you turn up on one of those threads, and just bring such calm, reasonable, sense - but I also recognise how much that must cost you, mentally.

Haircuts - I've just ordered the rainbow Wahl and I just need to go out into the 35 degree heat to go and pick it up.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 31 July 2020 14:18 (three years ago) link

the current heat and humidity has been oppressive and very sad for my hair

here 1st (roxymuzak), Friday, 31 July 2020 14:41 (three years ago) link

Will no one stop this hot damn climate change from oppressing our poor sad hair, dammit!

It was 36 degrees out there. Thirty Six of your earth degrees. That's just unacceptable.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 31 July 2020 14:52 (three years ago) link

i have OCD which (often) thrives on feelings and thoughts of not having control, and my god the layers of having no control involved in that thing


I also have ocd and I didn’t realise until I read this that that’s why it’s pinging off me so much in a deeply uncomfortable way. Sorry to hear you’re having a bad time atm. :(

let them microwave their rice (gyac), Friday, 31 July 2020 14:52 (three years ago) link

I don't think I have strong OCD tendencies but I was OCD-ish about covid news from around the world from sometime in Jan/Feb, and then when the devastation broke all around us I was actually able to stop doom-scrolling because the worst had kinda happened?

Now I'm just trying to live and cut my hair and grow food and get in water.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Friday, 31 July 2020 14:58 (three years ago) link

solidarity gyac

here 1st (roxymuzak), Friday, 31 July 2020 14:59 (three years ago) link

This was me actually for a while, and I did have health anxiety that sent me to the doctor on multiple occasions years before I was ever diagnosed. Feels like validation, in a way?

let them microwave their rice (gyac), Friday, 31 July 2020 15:00 (three years ago) link

I am autistic, so it's sometimes really hard to separate out 'OCD tendencies' from 'executive function at 0, cannot achieve state change from current activity'.

Combine that with rona-based social isolation, where literally any social contact, even 'squabbling with people on the interwebs' feels like a boost to the brain chemicals, and that is a total recipe for being unable to stop the scrolling.

(LOL, I literally deactivated my twitter a few days ago, in a desperate attempt to try to stop the constant rat-like cage-pacing which was both alleviation of and cause of lots of the anxiety, but... here I am back on ILX instead ;_;)

Branwell with an N, Friday, 31 July 2020 15:29 (three years ago) link

Like, how can we do this in a way that lampshades the power structures in the entertainment industry as a site of fantasy - but that doesn't a) shame the desires and fantasies of the "girls" in question

You should contribute if you feel up to it! I was actually thinking of you the other day when I was being interviewed by a journalist friend about my experiences with this stuff. ... Anyway, I went in.

sarahell, Friday, 31 July 2020 19:20 (three years ago) link

part of that interview was about "toxic masculinity" -- and this goes back to what we were talking about earlier w/r/t queerness and gender -- and I told my friend that, in the context of male dominated cultures where "toxic masculinity" plays a major role, it isn't just cis-men that can practice it. Like, during the time period I was being interviewed about, I was one of the only cis-female venue-operators in the scene, and those were my, lol, soft butch years ... because I felt the need to present as male and assume this masculine behavior and mindset in order to "fit in" or "comply with community standards" ... because it's the dominant culture, toxic masculinity and masculinity, in general, is not just the province of cis-men ... similar to how "white supremacy" is something that blacks/POC can internalize and practice, even though they aren't white.

sarahell, Friday, 31 July 2020 19:34 (three years ago) link

Yeah, thanks for bringing up those points, they are very salient!

I think I need to cogitate and think on it more. There was another thread on this previously, like more of a discussions / "what can be done" type thread that I so nearly jumped in on. To try to say, "these industries are in the business of commodifying sexual desire; you cannot separate desire from the basic structure of their existence. The power structures are bad and can become intensely abusive, because power corrupts, but this whole thing is predicated on selling sex, selling the illusion of intimacy" (my friend who invented crowdfunding, said she took the entire model from the pornographic industry, that the very basic idea was not selling music, but selling intimacy.)

You can address the power structures and the imbalances, but you *have* to acknowledge the forces of desire at work here. Desire is complicated.

But as soon as you say "desire is complicated" it's like you are wading straight into the dirty business of making excuses for rapists and abusers, whether you intend to or not.

x-post will probably think on that, too

Branwell with an N, Friday, 31 July 2020 19:38 (three years ago) link

hahah also, when a band comes through and starts loading in their gear, and asks to talk to the sound person ... this is what I reasoned ... they are more likely to respect someone wearing a black band t-shirt, dickies, and combat boots as opposed to someone wearing a cute dress and make-up. ... Still though, some of them really struggled with the fact that the sound person was a woman. ... Even the most entrenched ones "got it" when they first saw me and I was actually setting up the PA.

sarahell, Friday, 31 July 2020 19:39 (three years ago) link

B -- sorry, I was typing the other thing while you posted -- and the thread itself, it also gets into different types of fandom, like -- I don't want to dredge up the gazillion different discussions about "how we talk about the music we like and why we like it" ... but it often confuses me when I see so many people posting about music they like devoid of that sex/desire / intimacy motivation that shaped a lot of why I like what I like.

sarahell, Friday, 31 July 2020 19:43 (three years ago) link

because I felt the need to present as male and assume this masculine behavior and mindset in order to "fit in" or "comply with community standards" ... because it's the dominant culture, toxic masculinity and masculinity, in general, is not just the province of cis-men ... similar to how "white supremacy" is something that blacks/POC can internalize and practice, even though they aren't white.

This is why I want every man, woman and genderqueer on the planet (or at least ~The West~) to read Down Girl by Kate Manne. Misogyny is not just a thing that "men", cis or otherwise, do. It is a system that wraps up *everyone* in its internal logic, unless you take constant and vigilant steps to avoid it, fight it, counter it. That many women (cis and trans women) can internalise it completely, not to mention trans men and sometimes enbies. Often, the *only* power that seems available to cis women in particular, within the structure of male supremacy, is to conform to the standards of misogyny - either by becoming impossibly perfectly feminine and weaponising femininity against women who are less feminine; or by invoking the ~Laddette~ and playing masculinity harder than the boys (lord knows I did) back in the 90s - even though the small power one can access through playing that loophole girl is *always* on sufferance, can always be revoked at any time, and *will* be revoked if you ever actually challenge male supremacy in any meaningful way.

I don't wanna talk about misogyny any more, I want to talk about shagging pop stars and collecting dick like rare seven inches, because I was never cute enough to be part of that scene, but wow, was I fascinated by it?

Branwell with an N, Friday, 31 July 2020 19:49 (three years ago) link

but it often confuses me when I see so many people posting about music they like devoid of that sex/desire / intimacy motivation that shaped a lot of why I like what I like.

LOL, I remember starting a thread on ILM where I was like "I actually feel sorry for people who don't experience the power of sex / desire / intimacy in music" and of course I got crucified for that, even though it's true...

Branwell with an N, Friday, 31 July 2020 19:57 (three years ago) link

oh and to answer your question from way earlier -- Wahl is a solid brand of clippers -- like the Toyota of clippers, or the Fender of clippers, or the Korg of clippers -- respectable and reliable.

sarahell, Friday, 31 July 2020 20:12 (three years ago) link

Yeah, I now have a brand new set of Wahl clippers, and an undercut. (I still haven't worked out what to do with the mop on top, but at least the awful hot sweaty clutter at the base of my neck that was bothering me so much is gone.)

Branwell with an N, Friday, 31 July 2020 20:14 (three years ago) link

xp -- oh geez, it's always weird to me when there are those big retrospective polls of artists/bands I was a fan of as a young person and people go on about "the guitar tone" or the recording quality when for me, it was like, this song inspired so many vivid romantic fantasies for me at the time.

sarahell, Friday, 31 July 2020 20:16 (three years ago) link

xp THE BEST. I LOVE HAVING A CLEAN NECK!

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Friday, 31 July 2020 20:21 (three years ago) link

this is on my agenda for the weekend btw -- clean neck self care

sarahell, Friday, 31 July 2020 20:24 (three years ago) link

THERE WAS LIKE TWO SOLID INCHES OF HAIR BACK THERE!!!! It was so disgusting. I don't even know how that happened because I just trimmed it with a pair of scissors at the start of lockdown?

But wow, number 1 on the back of the neck is the best velvety feeling ever, and now I can have it WHENEVER I WANT!

(I am going to be stimming with these damn clippers all the time now)

Branwell with an N, Friday, 31 July 2020 20:25 (three years ago) link

i can't deny that I have experienced arousal with that number 1 back of the neck thing.

sarahell, Friday, 31 July 2020 20:35 (three years ago) link

Whenever I step onto pretty much any thread except this one, I feel like... have I taken powerful hallucinogens that render everything I say completely unintelligble and garbled, or have the people around me taken some powereful hallucinogens that cause people to hear random things unrelated to, or even the opposite of what I'm saying and doing? It's a genuine mind-trip, to see what I write, and how people choose to interpret it. Seriously, I haven't slept in like 4 days, so am I going crazy here, or is this actually as bizarre as it seems to me?

Branwell with an N, Friday, 31 July 2020 21:42 (three years ago) link

i think past history is part of it, and also, idk maybe it's an age thing? i have no idea ... i am reading the pushback and going wtf along with you, for the most part.

sarahell, Friday, 31 July 2020 22:10 (three years ago) link

i know i am at the age where i have to make an effort to change habits and language, and that things that "were acceptable" are not anymore. It's kinda the one thing that is a disadvantage to being middle-aged, whereas so much else is way better than being a young person. ... though I think I have at least 5 yrs before the menopause so ... I am trying to enjoy the fuck out of the rest of my 40s.

sarahell, Friday, 31 July 2020 22:14 (three years ago) link

It's weird, because I actually have a ton of younger friends from other messageboards who are trans and nonbinary, and... they don't behave like this? We have reasonable conversations, and they actually view me as some kind of... "wow, a 50 year old nonbinary person!" like they love that I'm old and I am still this way, because it validates that it's not just some ~Tumblr fashion thing~ that we have been around forever, even if we didn't have words for ourselves back then.

Maybe it is a specific ILX thing. The level of projection from these people is seriously just off the scale.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 31 July 2020 22:18 (three years ago) link

ILX has always been full of bullies, it is in some way kind of a haven for bullies, but this feels like... the people who used to bully me in the olden days were just plain old misogynists and transphobes who couldn't stand the idea of a "woman" who behaved "like a boy".

It's bizarre when the bullying and the mobbing and the dogpiling is coming from inside your own community.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 31 July 2020 22:20 (three years ago) link

it makes me question whether healthy respectful conflict resolution is possible ... idk ... or going back to the part of the whole call-out/cancel process where there is supposedly accountability and reparations and healing, but that seems to be the most difficult part for us (at least in America).

The way that the #metoo thing is wending its way down to more subculture musicians, I am seeing friends coming to terms with the fact their bandmates and friends who are in other bands have done shitty things that aren't acceptable, and that they have to hold the bandmate/friend accountable and the messiness that is separating the person from the behavior, and caring for someone that has done a horrible thing, and having that process be somewhat public ...

sarahell, Friday, 31 July 2020 22:27 (three years ago) link

I'm just feeling really down on the fact that it seems like it's perfectly fine for other people to scream, to swear, to call me names, call me a "piece of shit", to tell me to fuck off, and to act... unbelievably rude and aggressive and just over the top behaviour towards me, and apparently that doesn't reflect badly on them.

But for me, to like, deviate from absolute perfect, impossible precion and politeness in any way, means that I deserve every piece of abuse that gets hurled at me.

The double standards are just... wow, they really are something, huh.

Sorry, I'm gonna come back to the callout/accountability process of subculture musicians at another time. It's exhausting dealing with this.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 31 July 2020 22:52 (three years ago) link

Reminds me of that old chestnut - if you want to know where power lies, it's visible in who is allowed to display anger, and how much.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 31 July 2020 22:55 (three years ago) link

if you want to know where power lies, it's visible in who is allowed to display anger, and how much.

definitely!

sarahell, Friday, 31 July 2020 22:59 (three years ago) link

...speaking of badly behaved subculture musicians, it applies there, too!

Whose rage is acceptable and even legitimises them; and whose rage totally disqualifies them.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 31 July 2020 23:01 (three years ago) link

ah yes ... the righteous anger vs. being the "crazy bitch"

sarahell, Friday, 31 July 2020 23:08 (three years ago) link

There are like four threads going on at the moment all going round the same circles and I really, really don't get what ILX is about sometimes.

kinder, Friday, 31 July 2020 23:15 (three years ago) link

Neither do I, Kinder, neither do I.

Branwell with an N, Saturday, 1 August 2020 00:03 (three years ago) link

The way that the #metoo thing is wending its way down to more subculture musicians, I am seeing friends coming to terms with the fact their bandmates and friends who are in other bands have done shitty things that aren't acceptable, and that they have to hold the bandmate/friend accountable and the messiness that is separating the person from the behavior, and caring for someone that has done a horrible thing, and having that process be somewhat public ...

It's much easier to produce the Correct Opinion when you're talking about the behaviour of Jimmy Page or Bobby Gillespie or That Guy With The Haircut From That Popular Band whose name I've forgotten (though obviously, some people cannot make the leaps through 'I like this person's music' and 'does liking a bad person's music make me a bad person?' to 'bad people can make stuff I like, but it's important not to dismiss or deny the badness of their actions').

When it's 'that guy who's the Missing Stair in your own scene' it is much, much harder, because those leaps become so personal. It's no longer 'does liking music by the bad person make me a bad person' - it's 'did I turn a blind eye to stuff that was happening under my nose; did I ignore or downplay or make light of some shitty stuff; am I personally implicated in this; is this a badness in *me* that goes beyond "well I like some questionable music"' That it's not actually about the bad behaviour of the shitty dude, or even about *their* accountability - the discomfort is about recognising one's own complicity in allowing the missing stair to go unaccounted for so long.

And I think a lot of the "well, any dude would act the same in the same situation" is a kind of handwaving way of both admitting and denying one's own complicity - "any of us could have done it" means no one is really culpable for it.

There is discomfort in 'the messiness that is separating the person from the behavior' (that shit is difficult) - but looking at yourself and realising that messiness has spattered all over you, whether you think of yourself as ~one of the good ones~ or not is, I think, what makes the process so difficult for many people to handle.

Branwell with an N, Saturday, 1 August 2020 09:05 (three years ago) link

Is this something I would have to read ILM to understand?

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Saturday, 1 August 2020 15:50 (three years ago) link

Haha, yeah probably. It's exactly what you would expect from a clash of music nerds and #MeToo

Today, in my continued quest to re-examine the most ~difficult~ of the demon radical feminists of yores, I've been reading Barbara Walker - Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets, and I'm having such a fun time with it. It is both so charmingly old school ~new age wymxn~ in a way that now seems adorably quaint, and at the same time, still kinda startling - or at least, for me, who was a priest's child at a seriously religious school, raised on serious Critical Bible Studious and Greek Myths.

#PostsVeryMuchInCharacter

Branwell with an N, Saturday, 1 August 2020 17:56 (three years ago) link

Is this something I would have to read ILM to understand?

― There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Saturday, August 1, 2020 8:50 AM (three hours ago)

in summary, previously celebrity musicians are targeted by #metoo callouts. In the past month or so, less famous musicians have been called out and smaller labels are cancelling acts, so the focus has gone from "oh shit, this guy in my fave band when I was a teenager" to "this guy my friend used to be in a band with/date"

sarahell, Saturday, 1 August 2020 18:56 (three years ago) link

and, to show my age, lots of people in my cohort thinking, "fuck, what would I have done at the time, if #metoo had been a thing 10-20 years ago? Good thing I'm no longer in a band and am a boring middle class wage slave with a kid"

sarahell, Saturday, 1 August 2020 19:00 (three years ago) link

Is a passing spacecadet still around?

kinder, Saturday, 1 August 2020 22:18 (three years ago) link

harbl: yes! It blows my mind that the Myths and Secrets author is also the Treasury of Knitting Patterns author.

And she a created a Tarot deck!

Notes on Scampo (tokyo rosemary), Saturday, 1 August 2020 23:18 (three years ago) link

wait it IS the same person?!?!

contorted filbert (harbl), Saturday, 1 August 2020 23:38 (three years ago) link

It is!

Notes on Scampo (tokyo rosemary), Saturday, 1 August 2020 23:47 (three years ago) link

i own this one, love the cover photo lol
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51HFA0NP5QL._SX374_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

contorted filbert (harbl), Sunday, 2 August 2020 00:16 (three years ago) link

Harbl!!!! Tokyo Rosemary!!!!

Yes, it is the same Barbara Walker. See, I knew the Goddess / Tarot stuff, but had no idea that she had this whole history as a serious knitting star? That's really amazing, so cool, but it also kinda makes sense.

I'm really enjoying the book, and I'm actually kinda surprised at how much I like it, and am learning from it? I'm confronting my own biases - as a 70s child, I often encoutered goddess worship through hippies, and by the time of the 80s, when I was a teen, the whole ~Earth Mother~ thing had become an insult, a term of dismissal towards women. (And I totally bought into that, and went along with it, because so many of the punk dudes I ran with in the 80s loathed hippies and all they stood for.) An interest in goddess-worship was really common among the kinda spooky goth chicks with tarot decks I was romantically interested in, but my general attitude was 'sure, the femininst aspects of this are kinda interesting, but most of it is fantasy novel bosh.' (I placed it firmly in 'Fiction' and 'feminist retelling' along with The Mists of Avalon, which I did actually love at the time.) Then as the 80s became the 90s, goddess-worship seemed like it had been entirely collapsed into New Age, and New Age was swept out like so much garbage with the 21st Century, as ~Skeptick~ and Cool Rational Atheist became the fashionable thing to be?

Coming back to Barbara Walker with 30 years of experience of systemic misogyny under my belt and having read a ton more feminist theory and queer theory; and also reading Myths and Secrets seriously and sequentially rather than "haha, let's read about male gods who tried to become pregnant and gave birth through their penises!!!" dipping in, I'm finding her a far more interesting writer, thinker and theorist than I ever gave her credit for. (And I'm also finding her dismissal says more about the dismissers than it does about her work - all the reviews of "she's so biased I can't even read her!!!" and it's like... hmmm, why is it that you find "goddess worship was everywhere" to be so biased, but you read these translations of Greek myths that are so full of rape stories and their 'just so' justifications, and you don't even interrogate *their* bias? Why are women and their theories about Patriarchy always subjected to levels of scrutiny and suspicion and accusations of bias, that theories in support of Patriarchy never are?)

Sorry, I'm monologuing and hobby-horsing here. It actually makes a lot of sense that she's a knitting expert, like 1) her taxonomy and research skills are first class. I bet she's great at taxonomising and collecting and explaining knitting techniques. 2) she's totally into the whole 'women were the o.g. source of generativity and creativity, let's reclaim and celebrate traditional woman-coded creative projects.'

I love people who knit, I think it's an amazing skill. I am really kind of sad my wrists aren't up to it. Thank you for this knowledge of the other side of Barbara Walker.

Branwell with an N, Sunday, 2 August 2020 07:41 (three years ago) link

p.s. I do see Passing Spacecadet occasionally on the UK Politics threads but that is a space to enter with extreme caution! (Which you can definitely say about most ILX politics threads.)

Branwell with an N, Sunday, 2 August 2020 07:42 (three years ago) link

And Sarahell, I don't want to blow on embers of a clusterfuck that seems to have finally died down. I don't actually think that the difference is *solely* age, though age is certainly a component which will become obvious with further explanation.

The internecine struggle did not actually seem to be between 'old queers' and 'young queers' - it is between 'people whose primary experience of queer spaces are physical, face to face, in the flesh' and 'people whose primacy experience of queer spaces are Extremely Online'. As I've said before, I do not think that one is any more real or genuine or valid than the other - but the modes and basic expectations and styles of engagement are very different.

(It's not that I'm not Extremely Online, wow, I am definitely OCD compulsively so, in a way that probably isn't healthy. But the bulk of my Queer Space experiences have been face to face interactions, and the bulk of my Online Life hasn't really been Queer, it's been Music Nerd.)

Trying to stop this before it becomes wall-o-text. That's a v v big difference between online and flesh space - in flesh spaces people can *see* me listening very intently, nodding in agreement, drawing people out to elaborate before reacting, before thinking and producing a statement in response. Online, it just looks like a monologue.

Back to the #metoo callout stuff - wow, yeah, I'm actually quite grateful I'm no longer in contact with most people from my music scene days, to not have to see that kind of 'thank fuck I don't have to confront the past" reaction. Unhelpful! It's bad enough - the one person I'm still in touch with telling me second-hand reports of how dudes I was in bands and music scenes with 30 years ago are now raging Trump supporters, but thinking back, they were always kinda whiney and entitled back in the 90s, the whiney entitlement has found a different outlet now?

Branwell with an N, Sunday, 2 August 2020 08:11 (three years ago) link

branwell, this is pretty irrelevant to this and any convo, but i have a persistent memory of hanging out with you in person where we were talking about how "nutrageous" is a hilarious name for a candy bar and you said "this is a nutrage!!!!" and i loled so much and think of it often (every time anyone says something is outrageous tbh)

here 1st (roxymuzak), Sunday, 2 August 2020 14:54 (three years ago) link

it's good to pop back to ilx after a Cis White Dude-induced sabbatical and see this thread thriving, and Branwell, it's good to see you here.

I feel what's been said here strongly. I just want to find some way to enjoy silly casual things, to talk about ordinary stuff without being steamrolled by some superfragile cis white dude, to live my goddamn life without having to be in the vanguard of some fucking revolution 24/7. so yes i love this thread and everyone in it.

Kate (rushomancy), Sunday, 2 August 2020 15:04 (three years ago) link

Kaaaaaaaate!!!! Katey-Kate K8!!! I'm happy to see you back here, too. yeah, cosign - sometimes there is a real need to just... OMG, I just want to be able to enjoy some stuff in my life without having to wade through an endless swamp of misogyny to get there. What's bringing you joy at the moment, babe?

Roxy, I was going to insist "I have no memory of this, was I drunk?!?!?" and then had a very strong sense memory of you and I sitting in a bar that had, like, a weird mezzanine upstairs that was kind of somewhere between a mistrel's gallery and a treehouse (?!?!?) and both of us going "This is a nutrage!" in Mighty Boosh voices and pissing ourselves laughing?

Branwell with an N, Sunday, 2 August 2020 15:12 (three years ago) link

oh god, Branwell, I can't remember the last time anybody asked me that! i got _so_ much cool shit going on right now. so. fucking. much.

i got my new birth certificate in the mail! it took my birth state forever to get it out to me, i sent the request in before covid and like a couple weeks ago they sent an apologetic email saying that there had been a "system error"... yeah, i get it, lotta shit at my job got kinda thrown on the back burner during all this. anyway, i'm not legally non-binary on both my birth certificate _and_ my driver's license! now to figure out how the hell to make this work with social security... they don't recognize "non-binary" as a gender option but will update your gender to your legal gender on your birth certificate or driver's license... which is "non-binary"... :shrug:

my therapist also finished my gcs referral letter... it's still a long road to go, i gotta have my consult and then figure out how long it will be until i can actually get the surgery. also, less than a month till my endo appointment! my t has been all out of whack, way too high, and all my doctor knew to do about it was to up my spiro, which wasn't doing crap. anyway, hopefully getting my hormones into better balance will help.

the good thing about my time away from ilx is that i did actually get some sleep, like a lot of sleep, actually. i hadn't really slept through the night since, like, march, so i had a week of sleeping like 12 hours in a row. and then when i woke up i was super spaced out and groggy, but still, i needed it. just hoping i can get a little caught up with, like, work.

i just finished 100%ing this fun jigsaw game called "glass masquerade" - it's relaxing, casual, got a nice learning curve to it. i love the art even if some of it is, uh, pretty disturbing, particularly in the sequel which has this sort of "dark wonderland" aesthetic to the stained glass pictures. next on the docket i got dali and magritte physical jigsaw puzzles, they're 1000 piece and i haven't quite been doing up to them yet, and the "pirates of barracuda bay" lego kit that finally showed up.

speaking of shit on backorder, i think we may actually be able to get our hands on a ring fit... i hope it'll help, wii fit got my bmi into a "normal" range back when i was doing it, so hopefully ring fit will help me with the same thing. my bmi hasn't been _too_ bad considering all the ice cream i've been stress eating, but keeping it low is pretty important for gcs (by the way for anyone confused about all the trans jargon i'm using feel free to ask and i'll be glad to explain), and also the more belly fat i can get rid of the less dysphoric i'll be.

haven't gone clothes shopping since before COVID hit, which means that i'm kind of low on summer clothes. i've been leaving the house every day for my second round of TMS, which I'm almost done with... no idea if it's working, too many confounding variables at play. really hoping i can get up the energy to go thrifting sometime soon, given that my body's changed a lot in the past year. i also really need to get properly measured for a bra, that abrathatfits thing is totally inaccurate for trans bodies. did get a new straw hat - since i can't really wear wigs for the TMS, and since it's still up in the air as to whether i'll get enough hairline regrowth on the finasteride or whether i'll have to get some hair transplant action going on, giant-brimmed straw hats have been my go-to. maybe a bit more of the hyper-signposted "early transition" vibe than i'd like, but other people seem to accept me so it makes it easier for me to accept myself.

the wife and i have also been thinking about getting some recumbent trikes. we tried some out on a vacation years ago and she said then that she'd get me one if i bought her a house, and we bought a house and ever since she's been encouraging me. there's this queer couple (maybe they're not a couple, but there's two of them and they're both flying the gay pride flag on their bikes) i see biking around our neighborhood on recumbents occasionally, haven't talked to them or anything but they're awesome, especially given that our trump signs and "blue line" flags are not unknown in my neighborhood. :(

music wise i've really gotten into gabber in the last year. i feel like somebody needs to do a dune-based gabber project and call it "jom gabber".

annnnyway... i feel like i had a fair bit of stuff pent up there. :)

Kate (rushomancy), Sunday, 2 August 2020 16:09 (three years ago) link

Haha, it's funny, I'm generally OK with most of the trans jargon, but TMS really threw me, and I was like "I don't think I recognise that one?!?!?" and had to google, and found out it's not a trans thing at all. (I hope it is working, even if you haven't been able to tell?)

I'm glad you've got most of the form-changing done (the UK is so backwards we don't even have nonbinary markers for common documents?) And I hope you can see someone who can do a better job with hormones. Wishing you good luck with progressing on the GCS front!

Insomnia... ah christ insomnia will fuck with you. I don't know if I ended up back on ILX so much because I had insomnia so bad, or if ILX just causes or exacerbates existing insomnia. The last clusterfuck just sent it over the edge. After the thread was locked (I think it just completed an OCD loop in my head, like 'you don't have to pay attention to this any more' so I could switch off) last night I got 7-8 hours for the first time in a week and I still have unpaid sleep debt, but I felt so much more human. Annoyingly, my hyperacusis gets worse with insomnia, and then my hyperacusis prevents me from sleeping, vicious circle.

What are incumbent bikes like? I really enjoy cycling, but I haven't been on my bike at all this year. (Not even Covid, just some bad London traffic experiences that made me too nervous to go back out for a while.) How are they like for visibility, in traffic? Or is that what the flags are for, to alert drivers to the presence of a bike with a really low ground profile?

Jigsaw puzzles! We always used to have jigsaw puzzles in the office to reduce stress and encourage inter-team socialising. I don't have the space to do one in my flat, but I miss them.

Branwell with an N, Sunday, 2 August 2020 18:26 (three years ago) link

i just finished 100%ing this fun jigsaw game called "glass masquerade" - it's relaxing, casual, got a nice learning curve to it.


Thanks for this - playing this rn and it’s very pleasant indeed.

let them microwave their rice (gyac), Sunday, 2 August 2020 18:45 (three years ago) link

i also really need to get properly measured for a bra, that abrathatfits thing is totally inaccurate for trans bodies.

do you have in your mind what you want from the bra? Like, do you just want coverage? Or do you want lift/shaping to visually demarcate "boobs" from "chest" for a more femme look?

sarahell, Sunday, 2 August 2020 19:04 (three years ago) link

Branwell: They're just bikes you ride while sitting down instead of standing up. My aunt has one because she has back problems. I'm pretty badly dyspraxic and have never been able to balance myself properly on an upright two-seater. Now that I think about it, I reckon the flags probably _are_ there for visibility. That makes sense.

Non-binary markers are really hit and miss here in the States. There really isn't any acknowledgement on a federal level that I know of - it's just something many different states have undertaken on their own. Fortunately for me I wasn't born in Ohio or anything awful like that.

sarahell - Well, since I started transitioning I've been wearing light shapewear camis. Nothing terribly extreme - just something to help flatten my belly a smidge (I have reluctantly accepted that I will never be one of those ladies who can rock a bare midriff) and give a bit more definition to my breasts. They're still more or less working for me, but I'd like to have better measurements just so I could try out various different styles and see how they work for me. My understanding is that basically any department store would be glad to give me a proper sizing; it's just motivating myself to head all the way over to one that's the problem.

Kate (rushomancy), Sunday, 2 August 2020 19:51 (three years ago) link

"recumbent trike" is such a great phrase

kinder, Sunday, 2 August 2020 19:56 (three years ago) link

Haha don’t make me come in here and start banging my “Any lady may rock a bare midriff if she wishes; we all need to adjust the ridiculous standards by which lady bodies are judged!!!” drum.

(Except my own feelings about my own body are so bad that even if top surgery were even on the menu, I’d still be too ashamed to ever go shirtless. Following one’s own advice is hard!)

Branwell with an N, Sunday, 2 August 2020 20:10 (three years ago) link

kate - my thought for a "transitional" bra would be to get a bralette or sportsbra -- one that has inserts for padding -- some of the designs result in the padding moving around, which perhaps for you, could be a "feature" rather than a "bug" in that you can experiment with where to put the padding for a shape that you find flattering.

You also might want to look into "push-up" bras -- which will increase the space between boobs and stomach and visually make the stomach look smaller in comparison to boobs, some will also push the boobs towards one another, so if your boobs "point sidweways" that will also help create a more feminine shape -- as a fat femme, this is something I like as well. Idk what your band size is, but if it isn't small, you might look at plus-size stuff ... it can be awkward as a lot of plus-size bras are marketed towards cis-women with very large boobs, but they also have smaller cup sizes too.

sarahell, Sunday, 2 August 2020 20:29 (three years ago) link

I'm mostly just blowing off steam and thinking out loud, so unless anyone has any useful advice (that doesn't boil down to 'you should just leave' or 'have you tried being someone that isn't you') don't feel any need to reply.

There's a couple of threads on ILE related to (fairly neutral) topics that I am super interested in, and I feel like I could make some useful contributions and have good conversations and a good time with the usual denizen(s).

But this is how pile-ons twist you. I feel like, even if I go in and make well-informed and friendly posts on a neutral topic, there is still a non-zero possibility that people are going to use that space to come in and start ... doing what they do, because they're unable to ignore me or just put me on killfile. I feel like, the polite and kind thing to do would be to flag that up to the thread-starter and say, "hey, if you're not comfortable with the inevitable pile-ons that seem to accompany my presence, I can understand if you'd rather I not post here - but I've love to talk about your special interest with you, because I really share it?" However, if I even *say* that out loud, I'll be accused of ~narcissism~ and 'you're always making everything about you!!!!!' and even mentioning the possibility of a clusterfuck invokes the clusterfuck.

I think that ILX discourse *might* finally be moving from "Branwell is an inherent clusterfucker" to "Branwell is what they are; if you cannot control yourself from reacting, put them on killfile". But I'm not in a place where I want to push that, and risk another pile-on, I just want to have nice, fun conversations about my particular special interests.

You see how this shit twists you? Meh.

Branwell with an N, Monday, 3 August 2020 08:01 (three years ago) link

hi Branwell, i'm not sure i have any advice per se, but i hope you don't mind offering my... appreciation? for your post. i understand where you're coming from on this. my perspective on this is being raised according to cis white male cultural norms, and a lot of those norms didn't just make me fucked up because i am not in fact cis, they're genuinely fucked up norms in general i think. it's kind of painful because there is a lot awesome stuff about maleness and masculinity. in particular when i was a cis white guy, i now realize, i had a very poor sense of personal boundaries and i didn't know how to take responsibility for my own emotional shit. since transitioning it's something i've had to work on learning. and having done so, i now start seeing how many other cis men are kind of fucked up in the way i was, and the result of that is that when i talk to people like that i have to take care of not only my own personal boundaries but take care of theirs as well.

there's a lot of things i'd like to post about, i'd like to talk about here, but i don't, because i worry that someone will Take It Wrong. i try not to be _hyper_vigilant (which is something i honestly have a tendency towards), but ilx right now is a particularly fraught and dangerous place, and when shit gets tough, well, you know as well as i do who gets dumped on.

what i try to do is to trust my feelings, to balance the want, the _need_ to talk about things, to have fun, with that constant fear. and particularly what i do - and this may or may not be healthy, but it's what i do - is i am always ready to peace out at the first sign of trouble. i don't know how it applies to trans men, but us trans women are pretty infamous for our disappearing acts. if i don't feel good about where a thread's going, i walk off, which is hard if it's something i really care about. i just figure it's good practice!

Kate (rushomancy), Monday, 3 August 2020 15:24 (three years ago) link

Oh, Kate - I wish I could a) make my queer groups come off covid pause, and b) get you across the Atlantic so you could experience one, because those kinds of conversations are exactly what we used to do, all the time, in our little Gender Swag gang. And they were so healing and so helpful, because discussing in a mixed group of transmasculine and transfeminine people, we could really kinda help connect the dots and fill in the missing pieces about all of those 'but there was also kinda good stuff about the gender I was assigned at birth that I have some complicated feelings about' impulses. It's hard talking about stuff you could take for granted in your original assigned gender, which is no longer accessible to you as a trans individual, without lapsing into (whispers) terf-adjacent discourse. But it happens and it's painful and weird.

Unfortunately, those kinds of talks are never going to happen on ILX - lord knows, I have tried, in the past. But if it's not Cis People With Opinions, it's queers with our own trauma damage reactions. That stuff is fraught on ILX.

I have, myself, a long history of peacing out on ILX at a moment's notice, staying away for 6 months until the Suggest Bans expire, coming back, and doing it all over again. Like, it is a memetic mean joke around here. So yeah. I'm trying to stick to topics I'm genuinely excited about, and do actually have relevant knowledge on. I just have (autistic!!!) no idea of when I've gone ~too far~ until I've gone over the edge and brought the thread to a dramatic stop, and I have no idea if people have just gone to get lunch, or everyone's just staring at me like "WTF just came out of Branwell's mouth?!?!?" Letting go of that hyper vigilance is hard. Hyper vigilance serves us well in... dangerous situations. (Which is, let's face it, many, many situations when you're trans or in any way queer or gnc or even just Female In Public, really.)

I need to get off the internet and go for a walk.

Hope all girls, women, femmes, ladies, gentlequeers, tomboys in stompy boots, other diverses genders, and everyone else who travels in the Good Ship 'No Boys' is having a lovely day!

Branwell with an N, Monday, 3 August 2020 16:48 (three years ago) link

oh, don't worry about me Branwell, i have my own support networks. :) primarily trans discord - which has its limitations, but there is _way_ more opportunity for talking and working through issues and support than even a thread like this, nice as it is, can offer.

and partly i keep coming around here because of those limitations, because as much as it might seem to some here that i am All Trans All The Time i'm not, in particular i'm sort of pathologically obsessed with music and i literally don't know anywhere else where i can talk about the music i like without getting a bunch of blank stares in return

but partly it's because a lot of people, even, for god's sake, cis white dudes, are starting to understand things _so much better_ than even a few years ago. yeah there's some extremely advanced stuff i wouldn't venture to even bring up in a mixed cis/trans environment, because i know how hard it is even getting across the really simple basic stuff, but i'm starting to see more and more people understand more and more of the simple basic stuff. and that is super encouraging, even though i'm just constantly being disappointed when i expect more out of people than they're ready for; surprise can mean any number of things to me.

Kate (rushomancy), Monday, 3 August 2020 20:44 (three years ago) link

I feel slightly self conscious about this thread turning into the Branwell-and-Kate show? But I was worried about you after your last time-out. (And I'm grateful that there are people on this thread who have acted with care and concern about my return.)

On one level, I'm glad that there are cis-white-dudes who are starting to understand ~trans stuff~. However, because of the baseline misogyny in our cultures, cis-white-dudes are still way more comfortable with forms of trans activism that look like 'screaming at people you consider women until they comply' than they are with the whole 'you have to accept people's identities are what they say they are, even the complicated ones you find really difficult' thing. MEOW!

That one of the forms that 'power relations dressed up as binaries' take is that one 'side' of the 'binary' will have a great deal more information about and knowledge of the other 'side', because in a power gradient, information always runs downhill. Trans people typically know everything we need to know about cis experiences; cis people know very little about trans experiences. Black people typically know way, way more about ~Whiteness~ and white culture, than white people ever know about Black culture. Immigrants have to learn a *lot* about their host culture really, really fast; people in the host culture neither know nor care a whit about immigrants' originating culture. (The opposite is true for settlers and the colonised.) That's what makes them power gradients and not actual binaries.

It's not always immediately apparent where on the power gradient you are! (I include myself in this, before anyone starts eye-rolling.) The middle of a power gradient *feels* a lot like the bottom. Being in different places on different power gradients can turn stuff that *feels* like punching up, into punching sideways or even punching down. Stuff that is *mutual* ignorance can feel like a power gradient, when it is actually remediable ignorance. Sorry, I know I'm stating all the obvious here; it's what I do.

I guess it was really important for me to remember what I came to ILX for, back in late 2000. And the collective musical sense of "where were you in 92?" is a joyful swell of togetherness that I often truly miss.

Branwell with an N, Tuesday, 4 August 2020 08:16 (three years ago) link

Is there a polite way to nope out of a conversation saying "One of the people in this conversation was once a 13 year old girl who was raped. Is it you?" without being an arsehole?

Also, how does one handle saying, "can I please be exempted from your collective virtue signalling exercise without having to drag up my own past traumas?" without sounding like a jerk.

Asking for a friend.

Branwell with an N, Tuesday, 4 August 2020 14:24 (three years ago) link

*at least one

Branwell with an N, Tuesday, 4 August 2020 14:25 (three years ago) link

Like, I am glad that some of these dudes are trying to engage with #metoo and all, but my god are these conversations triggery as hell and I don't know how to recconcile their need to discuss them with my own needs to manage my mental health. :(

Branwell with an N, Tuesday, 4 August 2020 14:29 (three years ago) link

i mean, yeah, i'm super self-conscious too. part of the way i was brought up, what i was taught as an amab, was to talk over everyone else, was to suck all the air out of the room, was to make everything about me.

and a lot more people are afraid of me, since my transition. they're afraid of saying the wrong thing, that if they say or do anything that hurts me that will make them a Transphobes and Transphobes are Bad People.

a lot of what keeps me here is the positive encouragement, which i've gotten a lot of, and you've gotten, well, considerably less of.

as far as what you're talking about... i don't think there is any way for someone to talk about a trauma like that and still be "polite". it's something i struggle with a lot too. there are these standards of decorum and the standards are based around circumlocution, about talking _around_ things. confronting trauma directly that's challenging for a lot of people. well, i don't get the impression that you were given a fucking choice on that.

and that is a big part of the problem, a huge part - i'll just put this in the passive voice, i have observed a widespread desire to talk around these things, diminish them, minimize them, maybe make them _invisible_. being able to speak openly and directly to one's own trauma is both an incredibly powerful weapon against that tendency and is also, very often, immensely painful and difficult for the person doing it.

the best i can say is that i do try to be aware of when i'm saying that will hurt or challenge other people, that will bring about that programmed/automatic "that's not my fault!" response, and call it out in advance. no magic bullet, i don't know if it works or not, but at least if i tell people ahead of time when i'm going to be "unreasonable" i don't have to waste time engaging with responses that accuse me of being unreasonable.

i don't have much advice in general, but the advice i do have is that it is really important to do whatever you can to take care of yourself, and that whatever someone else feels like you _owe_ them, you fucking don't. there's a lot of shit i'd like to do but can't, not now, maybe not ever, and i have to make my peace with that just about every day. every time walk into a space, no matter what brings me there, no matter if i'm _invited_ there, i've got that... again, i try not to make it hypervigilance but it's a risk. it's always a risk, and i gotta keep my eye on how the odds are running.

Kate (rushomancy), Tuesday, 4 August 2020 19:20 (three years ago) link

Hey Kate. I never know how people use / are supposed to use the 'second thoughts' thread. Some people seem to use it to indicate they don't wanna talk about the thing any further; some people seem to take it a request to expand the conversation in a different place. I have no idea which you intend.

I just wanted to ask about your relationship to the word 'dysphoria'? If that's not comfortable to do here, please tell me to drop it, I'd be happy to.

I struggle with that word, because there are so many, many meanings to it. And I think the slippages between the different uses and different contexts of that word, *did*, for me (maybe just for me) make it harder for me to understand what gender dysphoria was and what it wasn't.

Other posters on the thread, if this is not the place for that discussion, please direct me somewhere better? And again, Kate, if you'd rather drop the topic, I'm happy to drop the topic.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 7 August 2020 07:27 (three years ago) link

Also, the Jane's Addiction thread really messed me up - not even on consent/age issues, which went much more politely than I thought they were gonna go - but on addiction issues.

To this day, I am still endlessly confronted with all kinds of ways in which my attitudes towards that stuff is so far outside the normative range (in negative ways and in positive ways) - I still have the thought processes of an addict.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 7 August 2020 07:30 (three years ago) link

Branwell - whew. That is a really good question and I definitely would like to address it and if you don't mind I think I will bump the trans thread to do it because it gets into some _deep_ trans stuff. It's a complicated and difficult question for me to answer but I think it's a topic well worth addressing.

I understand what you mean about thought processes. Honestly, where I'm at I tend to work against even labelling my divergences in thought processes as "positive" or "negative". Suspending self-judgement while still maintaining healthy boundaries is extremely difficult work for me.

Kate (rushomancy), Friday, 7 August 2020 14:40 (three years ago) link

No problem! I just... eeesh, I still feel weird about posting on the general ILE trans thread, because: history.

Maybe we should start a "no cis allowed in the room" thread on an obscure subforum no one reads. Ha!

Branwell with an N, Friday, 7 August 2020 14:42 (three years ago) link

(But of course then that would be really mean towards the ILX poster Cis, who is awesome and amazing and totally <3-worthy)

Branwell with an N, Friday, 7 August 2020 14:43 (three years ago) link

It doesn't have to be that thread, God knows there have been enough threads with awful histories restarted of late. There's also a 77 thread - I don't know if you're on 77 or not. My concern is not whether or not it's an an obscure subforum - I know I, like a lot of other folks on this board, read ILX through sna. My main concern honestly is indexing - I don't mind a public thread as long as it's not search-indexed. LMK your thoughts!

Kate (rushomancy), Friday, 7 August 2020 15:58 (three years ago) link

Yeah, I am not on 77. There's, erm... history around that, as well. (The one golden rule of 77 used to be, that you were not allowed to talk about posters there, if they weren't on 77. So the only way to ensure one wasn't gossiped about, bullied, piled-on etc. was just to refuse to be on it at all. That's probably gone out the window by now - but, I suspect there are a few people who would be very, very uncomfortable if I were to turn up there at this late stage in the game. I do not want to make people needlessly uncomfortable!)

I just went back and read the whole ILE trans thread. It started off really well, we had a lot of interesting discussions, and people didn't all have the same opinions, there was a lot of heterodoxy and that was the thread's strength. There was a ton of ~cis dudes coming in to have opinions at posters~ but mostly, as a group we held our ground? People got each others' backs. (Wow, am I in a different place than I was, when that thread was started! That was a trip!)

To me, it felt like there was a point where *the trans people* in the thread stopped being comfortable with heterodoxy and discussing our way through conflict. (It is entirely possible I am one of the people who became uncomfortable!) In a thread with a small trans group, where like, 5 out of 6 people had the same directionality, and 1 person had a different directionality, the 1 person with the different directionality became the friction point. It's not a fun place, to be the friction point. It is now a space I associate with... friction, which makes me feel quite defensive. Feeling defensive is not condusive to the kind of hyper-polite demeanour which is typically expected of 'people who are considered to be women' on ILE.

Sorry that's not a clear answer. Maybe I should just get over it. Being back on ILM has been fine, in fact it's been a lot of fun. But being back on ILE has gone... not fine.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 7 August 2020 17:15 (three years ago) link

Thank you for the insight! I figure it's OK to not have clear answers.

It's interesting to think about how I approach ILX and what my experience with it has been. I don't even really know when I started showing up here, when I started posting, when I became a "regular" that people noticed. I've never met anyone here. I do have a Usenet-derived friend group, by now basically a rump, and I guess for some people here this is sort of an equivalent.

ILX has always had a fondness for "necrothreads" in a way that other forums don't. In other forums it's considered bad form to revive a thread that was last updated five or ten or fifteen years ago. I think it's mostly a matter of convenience and not intent, but there is an awful lot of past to ILX, and a lot of it is very unpleasant and probably painful to the people involved.

I don't know. It's only been very recently that I've even been aware of the social dynamics of ILX at all. I know there are probably certain people on this board who hate my guts. I vaguely remember that most of them probably have a valid reason for it, even, but I don't specifically remember any of those reasons.

I am, at least, aware of the social dynamics regarding Trans Men and Trans Women. There are problems. I remember that at some point in my transition I was misandrist, and that it was very easy for me to be misandrist, in ways that were specifically invalidating to a lot of trans men. I know that the trans discord servers I'm on, they're all open to all trans people, but in practice it doesn't work out like that. There are servers that mostly have a userbase of trans men, and there are servers that mostly have a userbase of trans women, and everyone goes out of their way to proclaim mutual respect in the same way that diplomats hoping to maintain a cease-fire do.

And I don't have The answer, even An answer, to that, any more than you do. All I can say that is that even though I haven't read the thread, the way you describe what happened there... it doesn't surprise me, it's definitely a phenomenon I've seen before.

Maybe this would be the best thread for the novel I wrote this morning!

Kate (rushomancy), Friday, 7 August 2020 18:12 (three years ago) link

Early history of ILX shaped it in various ways - the lack of a decent search function, for one, so in the early days, people would start 4 or 5 threads for the same topic until someone shouted JUST PICK ONE THREAD FFS!!! means there is a lingering general annoyance with multiple threads on the same topic. That kind of history is really *good* in music threads, where people can see the building body of opinion around an artist's work as it develops.

I would really reccommend hitting "show all posts" on the trans thread, and reading it from start to finish. Re-reading it was a really good exercise for me. It helped reassure me - I wasn't going crazy, things really did happen the way I remembered them. That there is context and history behind the things that happen. (And also that that context is seen very differently depending on people's opinions of the posters involved.)

That there were cis dudes repeatedly popping in and posting really incredibly transphobic things. That my reaction in 2020, my reading of a transphobic tone to a cock joke, was informed by that specific poster's history of popping into the trans thread to say horrible things about e.g. {Caitlin Jenner's Deadname}. That yes, dudes who had a history of starting or participating in pile-ons against me (as recognised by other posters in the thread!) coming in to deadname me was not casual or friendly in the way that it has been represented, but deliberate and inflammatory. That the ways other posters' later transitions were handled were very, very differently to the way that mine was. That my repeated requests to "can we talk about cis dude transphobia, instead of dwelling on ~t*rf-discourse~ all the time?" were informed by a whole hell of a lot of cis dude transphobia, right there in the damn thread, but became just dismissed as "branwell is a t*rf / branwell hates trans women / branwell is transphobic" (So I'm trans exclusionary? Shall I go lock myself in the bathroom, then?)

That a lot of the stuff that caused the pile-on in 2020, was stuff that had been addressed and discusssed in that thread. (It was Rev, who came into her identity as a trans woman during the course of the thread, who first brought up the dichotomy between 'cis gay space' and 'femininst queer space' which is still causing ~problematics~ today.)

Like, if you want to revive the thread, maybe we give it a go and see how it goes. There's stuff that has totally changed since the start of that thread - OMG, Sophie is a trans woman and she was exploring her own identity, rather than ~doing a drag~ - wow, I got that one wrong, and I'm happy to own my wrongness and be corrected on that one. I've also totally flipped my position on pronouns, because of the experience of gender *euphoria* on being called a pronoun I like! (Again, why I wanted to ask you about dysphoria?)

p.s. you keep talking about "servers for trans men" and "servers for trans women" and... I feel like you're missing something here? Other genders are available? I don't know that 'trans man' is the correct term for what I am, and if you're using that one to describe me, I'd really prefer a different option? I am trans, I have transitioned socially, but the place I transitioned to is not "Man". I reject "Man" just as hard as I reject "Woman" as a placename for me. I'm not criticising, I just wanted to make that clear.

Branwell with an N, Saturday, 8 August 2020 12:35 (three years ago) link

My Wahl clippers have brokened already waaaaaaah(l)! ;_;

Branwell with an N, Tuesday, 11 August 2020 07:20 (three years ago) link

Guess it's like the Germans say: Wer die Wahl hat, hat die Qual.

(that's not a comment on their clippers, just a stupid joke which I found mildly amusing and thought that Branwell, a fellow German learner iirc, might do too. I often think of this German phrase because I am a very indecisive person and generally feel like I shouldn't be allowed to make decisions even about mundane things without possessing more information than is actually available, so die Qual der Wahl - the agony of choice - is real to me)

Hello, I'm still here but not being very good at catching up with ilx atm and also unqualified to wade into the in-depth discussions going on in various threads. Hope everyone itt/all non-boys of ilx are doing ok, best wishes etc

L. Prague de Scamp (a passing spacecadet), Tuesday, 11 August 2020 18:11 (three years ago) link

xp - how did they break? ... they tend to be fairly sturdy so this is surprising to me.

Stab Delimited (sarahell), Tuesday, 11 August 2020 18:14 (three years ago) link

Ha! That is a very excellent German phrase, surprisingly succinct for German and pithy, as well. Decisions are indeed agonising.

I managed to drop the clippers this morning, and a tiny bit of plastic snapped off, that clips the vibrating blade chunk onto the base (they are detachable so the blades can be washed). It's only on one side, so I did manage to shave this morning. But I'm wondering if I should try to repair with super glue, or just tape the attachment on, and just clean the blades with the brush.

Branwell with an N, Tuesday, 11 August 2020 18:34 (three years ago) link

oh yeah!! i just shaved the back of my head yesterday ... I too have new-ish Wahl clippers ... the detachable clips are not the sturdiest looking plastic. ... I would go with the glue rather than the tape (well, depending on what type of tape ...) as my instinct is that due to the vibrations, the tape might not be as resilient as glue.

Stab Delimited (sarahell), Tuesday, 11 August 2020 20:35 (three years ago) link

Well, I just tried supergluing it back together but the two pegs look kinda uneven now and I fear I may have fuX0red it permanently?

Also. Just came back here to say: the menopause sucks in general, but 14 days into a neverending period, I would just like to be done with having a body for ever.

And as a third thing, I thought this was an interesting piece and some of you might enjoy it, the concept of ~heterofatalism~ has been getting a bit of a dragging recently in internet quarters (always, oddly, from lady-loving-ladies, hmmmmm, I wonder why that could be) but this is interesting: https://maljournal.com/5/sex-negative/sophie-lewis/collective-turn-off/

Extractor Fan (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 19 August 2020 05:52 (three years ago) link

I went looking for a thread to just dump lots of silly lustful photos of my latest pointy-nosed, silver-trousered fuckwant receptacle, to stop clogging up the Proper Thread For His Band, and found this one and wow was that an awkward trip back in time, like, ugh, so many Bad Opinions from cis dudes - like I said, the Feminist Sex Wars left scars - but this weird reminder of how ILX has changed, but people on ~2020 ILX~ absolutely play amnesiac about what past ILX was like. I'm kinda sad and miss that there are no longer playful crush threads on ILX, but at the same time, wow, do I not miss the WOULD SMASH threads.

Extractor Fan (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 19 August 2020 06:00 (three years ago) link

lol Branwell that thread sure brought back some memories. I remember the same damn arguments being repeated across multiple threads and the two of us just having no fucking time for ppl who tried to rain on our crush parade.

Roz, Wednesday, 19 August 2020 09:36 (three years ago) link

Aw, Roz, we had a lot of fun there, didn't we? :D

There is no giddy joy higher than crushing, and I get such a kick out of even vicarious crushing, like, your crushes, please show me them, and tell me exactly what you find so adorable about them! Are you crushing on anyone or anything* at the moment?

*I do not mean to imply that any people are things, but I think at the moment what I am crushing on is "The Shamen" as a total concept as much as the lad involved

Extractor Fan (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 19 August 2020 10:32 (three years ago) link

I find crushes painful from either end, it’s an unhealthy feeling (for me). The main voice I hear in my head is “aw he’s just got a little crush on you, be nice” and I don’t appreciate that. If I catch one it feels like a disease. I hate it!!

Not trying to silence anyone it’s just that the joy being described is def not universal.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 19 August 2020 13:08 (three years ago) link

yeah it was amazing how many dudes just got SO. ANGRY. that there were people who actually dared to express their attraction towards other people who made the music they liked. like desire wasn’t the underlying driver of pop culture as we know it.

outside of kpop, I’ve actually stopped listening to a lot of male presenting musicians over the past decade or so (not consciously, just gradually got bored of hearing men’s voices) and as such I’ve found myself crushing way more on women lately? current obsession is Kate NVwho just looks soooo cool and makes records that often sound like the music I hear in my head. and boring I guess but Phoebe Bridgers, who is just someone I could *stare at* forever.

and the husband and I have been marathon-ing Robert Pattinson movies in lockdown and as a result, I think we’re now both crushing heavily on his very specific chaotic energy lol. and his magical scruffy hair.

Roz, Wednesday, 19 August 2020 13:14 (three years ago) link

xpost I totally get that too LL esp when I develop crushes on people I DON’T want to have crushes on. It’s the absolute worst!

Roz, Wednesday, 19 August 2020 13:17 (three years ago) link

I find crushes to be deeply painful myself. For me, being in a relationship that's been more-or-less in the throes of Lesbian Bed Death approximately since its inception, they're reminders of things I want but don't know how to have.

I hoped that transition would, finally, at last, give me the tools I needed to be able to be honest with my sexuality. Hoped that it would give me the power to explore ideas and feelings that I'd suppressed because they cut too close to the bone.

I'm not there yet. What I want seems so impossibly distant from what I can have, in so many different ways. Even according myself the _right_ to those things is an intellectual exercise that changes nothing. Various items sit in my bottom drawer gathering dust.

Crushes remind me that I am not asexual, that I want things, and that realization is painful and inextricable from the heady, floaty joy a crush brings.

Kate (rushomancy), Wednesday, 19 August 2020 14:11 (three years ago) link

I don't know, I was talking about celebrity crushes, which are... well, if not completely harmless, they exist 100% in the realm of fantasy, so there are no feelings to get hurt, because nothing about the crush is real, except the feeling of happiness?

(OK, I say that, but 3 out of my past 4 celebrity crushes have burst through the fourth wall into my life in some way or another, with, erm, variable results?)

Hearing people talk about stuff that they really love, that makes them uncomplicatedly happy does feel to me, like a way of increasing the joy in the world. Like, I'm going to go and check out the Kate NV thread now, because I trust Roz's taste in music (and crushes) and the description in the first post sounds pretty magic to me!

(Reading threads about IRL crushes has also been weird, like - sometimes I really struggle to remember which insignificant passing infatuation those posts were even written about? Other times, it's like - reading about e.g. the Pliny the Soundman saga, I later discovered that *was* totally requited, he was aware of the crush and intrigued by me, but *I* totally fucked that up in a very idiotic way because I couldn't believe that I was worthy of being crushed back on by someone I had so cool-icised (and he probably wasn't that cool or nice IRL as I had imagined him either.))

But... I don't know. Celebrity crushes are just safe joy. (I know true joy can never really be *safe* because all giddy joy contains an element of risk, through totally letting yourself go.) But safe joy is something *I* really need in this world right now. Celebrity crushes are it, for me, at the moment.

Extractor Fan (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 19 August 2020 14:20 (three years ago) link

I've screwed up crushes before because I couldn't accept that I was worthy; I know how that feels. God, I've been in an amazing relationship for ten years and I still kick myself for what an idiot I was in my junior year of high school. (This also may play a role in my finding crushes unpleasant.)

Kate (rushomancy), Wednesday, 19 August 2020 14:40 (three years ago) link

So I just watched Kate NV doing Grace Jones dancing on top of a desk while wearing an awesome suit and great shoes and a perfect wedge haircut - A++ celebrity crush, completely approve, she is astonishingly adorable.

Extractor Fan (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 19 August 2020 14:50 (three years ago) link

here's the thing for me with crushes, and if this gets too deep into transfem shit i apologize in advance

trans women are pretty much all brilliant and gorgeous. i mean i suppose there are exceptions, but for real, trans women are amazing. this is difficult because any given trans woman can recognize how fucking amazing all the _other_ trans women are but tends to think of herself as a loathsome monster. which is complicated by the way cisnormative society tends to look at us, which is not, generally, as loathsome monsters, but certainly cis people tend not to see in us what we see in each other. and this is fundamentally, i believe, a function of ignorance, anybody who has a monomaniacal focus on what's in someone's pants is missing out on some amazing, amazing things.

anyway the upshot of this is that i have, or have had, crushes on half my goddamn friends and it's really, really awkward. because i'm in a monogamous relationship that's amazing and fulfilling and wonderful in pretty much every way but sexually. because of the half my friends i haven't had crushes on i don't have any idea why and i don't know if i'm invalidating them by _not_ crushing on them. because i don't even know if any of these crushes are requited and because even if it was it wouldn't matter.

crushes mostly seem to make my life harder. :(

Kate (rushomancy), Wednesday, 19 August 2020 15:33 (three years ago) link

If I catch one it feels like a disease. I hate it!!

Yes!!! This is absolutely how I feel -- it's like a disease

sarahell, Wednesday, 19 August 2020 17:35 (three years ago) link

Also. Just came back here to say: the menopause sucks in general, but 14 days into a neverending period, I would just like to be done with having a body for ever.

is it heavy? (the period, not the body) or just ... it keeps going and going and doesn't stop in a "drip drip drip" kinda way?

mine have been erratic for the past 6 months -- two months where i have two periods in one month (has never happened to me before) and then over a month and half with nothing so i was afraid i was pregnant, but fortunately i am not pregnant but ... is this just stress or this "Menopause: The Early Years and Unreleased Demos"

sarahell, Wednesday, 19 August 2020 17:46 (three years ago) link

Man, you "crushes are a disease" people need to learn to channel your crush-bone into pop star crushes. I used to feel like crushes were an affliction that I inflicted on other people unwillingly - but if a pop star is up onstage prancing about, wiggling their arse, they are basically shouting "love me!" at the world, so it's... fine to love them back?

is it heavy? (the period, not the body) or just ... it keeps going and going and doesn't stop in a "drip drip drip" kinda way?

No, it's actually been like... 2 periods in 2 weeks? It came on really strong for about 4 days, then started to taper off to a dribble. It had actually almost stopped, to the point where I didn't need to use a pad at night - then the next week, boom, cramps all over again, and it started up and now I'm having a second period in 2 weeks.

I hate to say it, but "2 periods in a month, followed by 2 months no period" was definitely how the menopause started for me, so unfortunately I think this may be a 4-track demo for you. Joy!

Extractor Fan (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 19 August 2020 18:24 (three years ago) link

I’m just not into it — developing feelings for someone I’ll never talk to does not make me feel good at all.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 19 August 2020 18:35 (three years ago) link

Developing feelings for someone you never *HAVE* to talk to is.. such a relief, though? There's no way to screw this up!

(Ha ha, sorry, I will stop pushing now. We are just very different; it's OK to be different.)

Extractor Fan (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 19 August 2020 18:40 (three years ago) link

No obviously that’s worse. My aversion to crushes is so strong it won’t let go even when the person is not someone I’d ever talk with. It’s an extremely strong aversion.
Yes it’s ok to be different :)

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 19 August 2020 18:43 (three years ago) link

i guess it's just the way the feelings feel? Like, maybe we are using the same word to describe different feelings ... idk

sarahell, Wednesday, 19 August 2020 18:44 (three years ago) link

I'm on the trans thread right now, trying to describe how trans men have described T feeling like, and all of them are like "T makes you way more hungry and way more horny" and can you imagine how much more of a crushed-out hornball I would be if I ever actually got to take T.

Extractor Fan (Branwell with an N), Wednesday, 19 August 2020 18:51 (three years ago) link

yeah for me celeb crushes are the way to go and it often goes along with whatever musical/artistic obsession i've developed at the same time - it's escapism as much as desire. I do have to watch myself though - from past experience, whenever my fantasy crushes have gotten too intense, it's often a sign that there's something else in my life that's going wrong and that I'm not dealing with appropriately.

I'm currently in a very monogamous, very long-term partnership so I stay away from real life crushes anyway, but generally crushes on friends/people I meet are painful and messy as much as they can be exciting and joyful.

Roz, Thursday, 20 August 2020 04:47 (three years ago) link

Yeah, absolutely! Escapism is completely what it is. (But also sometimes a touch of... "I wish *I* were a better person - like my amazing fantasy crush!") And right now, given the choice between escapism and absolute despair, I would always rather choose escapism.

How do you find managing celebrity crushes within a long-term partnership? You mentioned watching R-Patz movies with your husband, like, is he very "ooh, I know my wife likes this actor, let's indulge this obsession together" or does he not notice?

For me, that was always a real test of whether a long-term relationship was working, like, was the other person willing to share and engage with pop star crushes, or were they jealous and insecure about it. (But I guess that's to do with... most of my long-term relationships have been with bisexual people of various genders, and that whole "tell me your crushes, we will crush on them together and bond over it" kind of is a distinct and notable part of queer/bisexual culture. "R-Patz or K-Stew? - oh hey, *both*!")

Extractor Fan (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 20 August 2020 06:45 (three years ago) link

Oh he notices and we tend to crush on the same people together - if it’s not RPattz, it’s FKA Twigs or Taika Waititi or Natasha Lyonne.

Neither of us identify as bi but maybe we’re both a little bi curious lol.

Roz, Thursday, 20 August 2020 07:20 (three years ago) link

Oh, that's adorable. That's just like dream relationship co-crushing. :D

(I don't think crushing is always *necessarily* sexual? So it's completely possible to have a non-orientation crush without it affecting one's sexuality, I guess.)

I've got past the "looking at photos and watching videos" phase of the crush and moved on to the "reading lots of interviews" phase of the crush, and he's gobby and opinionated and too-clever-by-half in all the ways I find really, really catnippy. Why am I so attracted to people I think I could have really good FITES! with?

Extractor Fan (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 20 August 2020 07:50 (three years ago) link

No one read this Sophie Lewis piece, huh?

As the porn actor and philosopher Conner Habib retorts when anyone complains that their eight-hour-a-day porn habit is getting in the way of their ability to perform their job, ‘dude, it seems to me that your eight-hour-a-day work habit is getting in the way of your ability to properly enjoy your sexuality.’

And in a colossal twinkle of universal irony, one of the queer theory reading groups has assigned an essay on eco-eroticism (those cheeky Scottish fuckers have ~ruined~ me for reading / thinking about / engaging critically with anything to do with *actual* Shamanism these days?) and here comes the kicker:

Feeling inside this fluid, living entity of what we call “nature” does have its consequences, as my sensuality often gets in the way of my scholarship. But then again, my scholarship often gets in the way of my sensuality. It is a common conundrum, feeling the difference between the world of thought and the world of my other senses.

Extractor Fan (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 20 August 2020 09:51 (three years ago) link

is this just stress or this "Menopause: The Early Years and Unreleased Demos"

Yes? Idk. I had no periods for half of last year, then had it for 14 days in December, was regular for like one month, then didn't have it from Feb until last week, then had it for 7 days. If the "definition" of menopause is going a whole year with no bleeding at all (that is so stupid btw), it keeps fucking w me by going 6 whole months and then ruining my timeline.

Meanwhile I'm looking at parcels of forested land in the Northeast to buy and someday put a prefab house on. That's the new 5 year plan. God willing office jobs go to wfh and I can live in VT or something. Or Northern MI, frankly.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 20 August 2020 13:36 (three years ago) link

I'm obsessed with minimalist prefab houses that are only available in the EU or in Quebec or in Finland.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 20 August 2020 13:37 (three years ago) link

All My Demos Are Unreleased

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 20 August 2020 13:38 (three years ago) link

can it be an A-frame?

contorted filbert (harbl), Thursday, 20 August 2020 13:39 (three years ago) link

I don't really like A-frames, weirdly? Idk--I dislike being in rooms where sloping ceilings make part of the room too short to move around in.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 20 August 2020 13:44 (three years ago) link

lol yeah they are really impractical on the inside. i just like looking at them.

contorted filbert (harbl), Thursday, 20 August 2020 13:45 (three years ago) link

Oh man I love slopey ceilings, like a big part of my obsession with Berlin is the slopey ceilings in Dachgeschosses.

Extractor Fan (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 20 August 2020 13:55 (three years ago) link

My period is still the same even though I’m the same age my mom was when she started menopause.

Notes on Scampo (tokyo rosemary), Thursday, 20 August 2020 13:58 (three years ago) link

in orbit, are you still upstate?

Notes on Scampo (tokyo rosemary), Thursday, 20 August 2020 13:59 (three years ago) link

https://ark-shelter.com/
Only available in, like, the Netherlands and Slovakia.

https://www.ecohome.net/prefab-kit-homes/le-refuge-s750/
Only available in Quebec!

https://www.pluspuu.fi/en/mallisto/
Only priced for Finland!

xp to tr: Yes, well, not VERY upstate, but in Orange County.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 20 August 2020 14:05 (three years ago) link

Ok, just wondering if you wanted to do some sort of socially distanced meet up!

Notes on Scampo (tokyo rosemary), Thursday, 20 August 2020 14:08 (three years ago) link

those are adorable. i have similar forest-living dreams but i don't know if i could downsize any more from my 880 sq. ft. house. too many kitchen things.

contorted filbert (harbl), Thursday, 20 August 2020 14:10 (three years ago) link

Oh yeah it wouldn't be my permanent residence probably? I have too much stuff! Or would be something modular that could be expanded later. I just can't afford a house ($250k and upwards) that I would want, and I only like old houses, and then I would have the constant maintenance, which I would love to say I could handle, but honestly without C and his skills and a whole workshop and tools and etc, which I don't have on my own, I would be sunk.

Anyway. When the climate crisis comes, everyone come to my 5 acres with a separate well and septic system and build a tiny house and we'll stick it out.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 20 August 2020 14:20 (three years ago) link

Yeah, absolutely! Escapism is completely what it is. (But also sometimes a touch of... "I wish *I* were a better person - like my amazing fantasy crush!")

― Extractor Fan (Branwell with an N)

"do i want to be _with_ them or do i want to _be_ them?" is, i've found, an _extremely common_ question trans people ask when they are crushing on someone.

Kate (rushomancy), Thursday, 20 August 2020 14:22 (three years ago) link

To the extent that I have or have had crushes on hot androgynous/unfeminine women, it's the same thing. I don't think I want to romance them but I want to *be around* them because they seem "cool." I'm afraid it's connected to masculinity being "cool" ie it's still patriarchy. Brains are problematic. :D

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 20 August 2020 14:39 (three years ago) link

Alternate theory: Maybe I'm interested in + admire them because it seems like they've broken free of gendered expectations and are living as themselves and that's intriguing/admirable too. That's cool! We should all do that. <3

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 20 August 2020 14:44 (three years ago) link

We have had so many crushology / crush archetype threads on ILX, where we have broken down, in great detail, the varying shades from "I want to fuck you" to "I want to be you" - it's one of my favourite subjects, TBH!

I dunno, I kinda have a slightly different experience - my crushes on men are always "I want to fuck you" or "I want to be you" but my crushes on women tend to be far more romantic, far more based around their coolness and interestingness and fascinatingness... like I know that under male supremacy, maleness is held to be inherently more interesting or cool, but... that's not my experience of it? Maleness is desirable on a sexual level, or it's desirable becuase I want to *be* that person (duh, I'm trans) - but in terms of *interestingness* or cool, like women are far more interesting to talk to, to read, to engage with? And that's just an orientation level thing for me?

Anyway, more on the tinyhomes, please? I live in a tiny flat, which is basically a tinyhome but not cool. But "tinyhomes in woods" is so so super appealing to me right now.

Extractor Fan (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 20 August 2020 14:52 (three years ago) link

The archetype of the crush thread to end all crush threads: Crushology

Extractor Fan (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 20 August 2020 14:54 (three years ago) link

I totally want to talk to women more and have them as friends and be around women almost all the time. Unfortunately I'm still attracted to men.

I watched a lot of tiny house tv shows and decided that I never want to sleep in a loft again and that I require bedrooms where you can stand up to put your pants on. Then I watched a lot of "The House that $100k Built" and decided I prefer OSB and prefab with maximum views over old, ornate, and dark inside. So I ended up at affordable pre-fab & modular houses, and then followed my aesthetic and got to those three options! Can't wait to look out my wall of windows at some snow and have a fire in the stove.

Also I don't have the kind of money you need to buy a house--like 20% down on a quarter-mil, as a single person? Not in my lifetime--not in all the industries I've ever worked in. Also when the coasts flood and 2/3rds of the country is uninhabitably hot, I would like to at least have the option of a place to go.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 20 August 2020 15:11 (three years ago) link

That turn toward modernist prefab is a SERIOUS 180 for me, because I love old houses and have always anticipated that I would live in one forever! It's just...I can't imagine being able to afford one that didn't need major work. I'm too old for that.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 20 August 2020 15:42 (three years ago) link

i have an old house that needs work i can't afford right now and i will never do it again!

contorted filbert (harbl), Thursday, 20 August 2020 16:51 (three years ago) link

Some of the prefab houses are actually really stylish and well-designed and beautiful - the aesthetic can be very beautiful when done well. I have a friend in Germany who was showing me pics of these beautiful modernist houseboats (sorry - hausboots!) https://www.nautilus-hausboote.de/en

^^^like, imagine having one of those, floating on a lake in Vermont!

(Sorry, my Mum has a big, old house in Vermont at the moment so I hear constantly about the amount of work it takes to keep a beautiful big old house from falling apart.)

Extractor Fan (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 20 August 2020 17:19 (three years ago) link

damn those hausboots are really sweet!

sarahell, Thursday, 20 August 2020 22:00 (three years ago) link

I love the egg-shaped one, would love to sit in that just chilling with waterfowl all around

on the other hand I would not love to be washing goose shit off its decking regularly so, yeah

scampus unrest (a passing spacecadet), Thursday, 20 August 2020 22:52 (three years ago) link

To the extent that I have or have had crushes on hot androgynous/unfeminine women, it's the same thing. I don't think I want to romance them but I want to *be around* them because they seem "cool." I'm afraid it's connected to masculinity being "cool" ie it's still patriarchy. Brains are problematic. :D

this rang some bells

I am not v in tune with my emotions and desires and so am terrible at knowing if my crushes are "want to be them" or "want to be friends with" or proper sexual crushes. it's as well I haven't had any proper crushes for over a decade as the last one nearly destroyed me tbh

even the last little "hmmm, why because they look intersting" was probably really a "this person seems cool and also quite stern and disapproving and I feel the need to win their unattainable approval for some stupid reason I can't even work out" rather than an actual crush. stupid misfiring neurons

scampus unrest (a passing spacecadet), Thursday, 20 August 2020 23:03 (three years ago) link

I feel the need to win their unattainable approval for some stupid reason I can't even work out

oh hi! been there recently

sarahell, Friday, 21 August 2020 02:10 (three years ago) link

"this person seems cool and also quite stern and disapproving and I feel the need to win their unattainable approval for some stupid reason I can't even work out"

OMG Spacecadet you have absolutely 100% just knocked something into place for me.

I used to complain on old crush threads, that no one ever had crushes on me. (Well, until I was the focus of that completely delusional full-on-stalking crush in 2015, which pretty much turned me off ever having anything to do with non-celeb crushes ever again.)

But there have been SO MANY times in my life, where people have acted towards me in the manner you describe (why? I'm not even remotely cool? I think people like to *read* me as stern and disapproving, and then project their entire Superegos onto me.) and it hasn't *felt* like a crush from the inside - it's felt like someone chasing you from thread to thread or blog to blog or social media to social media, saying stuff *AT* you, like they are trying to ~prove~ something to you? I always felt like "My dude, the approval you seek can never come from me, it can only ever come from inside yourself".

I always thought that being crushed on would feel good, it would feel validating and lovely, like being bourne up on a fluffy purple sparkly cushion of love (kind of like it feels like when you're onstage and everyone claps and goes wild at the end of a song) - but actually it feels more like weird people making endless demands of you that have absolutely nothing to do with you, and everything to do with something they can't do for themselves.

Thank you so much for the insight, that is so useful, you are always so wise (and you don't even know it)

Anyway, I shall now devote the rest of the day to finding photos of the *back* view of Colin Angus' pleather chaps which the world has cruelly denied me.

Extractor Fan (Branwell with an N), Friday, 21 August 2020 08:02 (three years ago) link

Well, until I was the focus of that completely delusional full-on-stalking crush in 2015, which pretty much turned me off ever having anything to do with non-celeb crushes ever again.)

For me it was 1993 and I was coming out of a series of other traumas. I think one of the most harmful messages out there about romance is to “be persistent” and “don’t take no for an answer”, bombard them with attention they can’t ignore etc. Like I can’t imagine a more horrifying scenario than being bombarded by someone else’s unwanted feelings.

See also: my reaction after seeing that scene from Love, Acrually with the guy and his gd poster boards. Absolutely completely without reserve fucking hate that guy.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 21 August 2020 13:47 (three years ago) link

Btw I can obvs imagine many other more horrifying scenarios but please don’t argue with me about my phrasing of this sentiment.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 21 August 2020 13:52 (three years ago) link

No, I totally start to understand where you're coming from, WRT crushes, when you describe it like that! That was a shitty thing for someone to do to you. I would understand why you have the reaction you, and the feelings that you do.

Extractor Fan (Branwell with an N), Friday, 21 August 2020 13:54 (three years ago) link

Thanks. It was a long time ago but I had gone through the wringer by the time I was18 and it informed many of my feelings about lots of stuff. I never really had a chance to feel wholesome and innocent wrt attraction :(

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 21 August 2020 14:07 (three years ago) link

Hmm. I thought it would be easier to buy vacant land but apparently banks don't like to give mortgages for anything except houses. Land can require a 50% down payment and worse terms unless you can get the owner to hold the note for you.

Should I be looking for a house in questionable shape that I don't intent to live in, just to be able to get a home mortgage? And put something else on the land later?

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Friday, 21 August 2020 16:07 (three years ago) link

the bank may have the same complaint about a house in questionable shape and treat it the same as vacant land. they need something with value to eventually foreclose on! relatedly, i was researching the process of buying land then getting a construction loan a long time ago (wishful thinking lol) and it's quite a messy process, basically a serial refinancing to get it to be all one mortgage. yuk.

contorted filbert (harbl), Friday, 21 August 2020 16:29 (three years ago) link

I really just need a project and a dream...and a reason to actually WANT to go back to work eventually.

xp You know, that makes sense, I'm sure banks know every way to lessen risk and maximize profit.

I was thinking if I bought really CHEAP land I could own it outright and then get a builder's loan or whatever in the future. I could do 20% down and a reasonably small monthly payment...but not 50%.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Friday, 21 August 2020 16:32 (three years ago) link

i was researching the process of buying land then getting a construction loan a long time ago (wishful thinking lol) and it's quite a messy process, basically a serial refinancing to get it to be all one mortgage.

ha a significant part of one of jobs right now is working on financial and due diligence documents related to construction loans ... otm though, the construction loan has much stricter terms (and higher interest) than a conventional residential mortgage, and construction loans are designed to either be rolled into conventional mortgages (for owner-occupied residential) or commercial mortgages (if it's a multi-unit building or a non-residential building) and there are other processes if you are a developer and doing the construction on building(s) that you will then sell ...

sarahell, Friday, 21 August 2020 19:41 (three years ago) link

two weeks pass...

Hi, I'm 14. Any tips for a girl starting highschool? :D

pestosucks69420, Thursday, 10 September 2020 16:10 (three years ago) link

don't 69420 until you are an adult

sarahell, Thursday, 10 September 2020 18:10 (three years ago) link

pestosocks69420

contorted filbert (harbl), Thursday, 10 September 2020 18:17 (three years ago) link

Haha that reminds me, I stumbled on a B*cky L*cas thread the other day and spent some time reading them all... we never figured out whose sock that was, did we.

Specific and Limited Interests (Branwell with an N), Thursday, 10 September 2020 18:18 (three years ago) link

hahah i do keep getting ads for compression socks ...

sarahell, Thursday, 10 September 2020 18:26 (three years ago) link

no basil allowed in the room

estela, Thursday, 10 September 2020 21:52 (three years ago) link

^ nice

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 10 September 2020 22:11 (three years ago) link

estela

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Thursday, 10 September 2020 22:28 (three years ago) link

I'm just exhausted at this point, and completely sure I'm going to be banned within a space of days/weeks of the new FP rules coming in because ILX is a popularity contest and I always lose those. Do I:

a) just keep my head down and stick to snarking on this thread and only music-related ILM posts, growing ever more silently seething at not being able to contradict the usual hypocrisy when it inevitably pops up until I get disgusted with myself and ban ILX from my browser at a root level.

b) just accept my fate and go out in a blaze of glory, reviving every "electronic artist you would like to have in your... y'know" thread, and starting 8 billion ridiculous "musicians in capes" style threads and have as much fun as humanly possible until the inevitable happens.

I'm tired.

Specific and Limited Interests (Branwell with an N), Friday, 11 September 2020 07:54 (three years ago) link

I've typed out the same post, for another thread, about 5 times now. But I know that the poster in question is both someone who does not take criticism well, and in addition has mod power that they have abused repeatedly and publicly to intimidate posters. I have had second thoughts, third thoughts, fourth thoughts - and yet, I know it's something that would create an even bigger clusterfuck.

I'm just going to say that I miss Kate Rushomancy, she's someone I genuinely like and respect - not despite but *because* we have been able to disagree quite seriously - and still go on interacting with one another respectfully. I miss her presence on the boards. But no one seems to GAF when women or trans people leave. It's always the ~edgey and provocative dudes~ whose presences are missed and absences mourned.

I'm tired. I want to listen to dumb 90s rave and mourn the times when ~conspiracy theories~ used to be fun things like crop circles and ~space aliens~ and mayan apocalypses. 100% politics with no relief and then interpersonal politice about the politics is just... I'm going to to and take my iron supplments and do something else.

Specific and Limited Interests (Branwell with an N), Friday, 11 September 2020 08:08 (three years ago) link

You know, I have you blocked for very good reason and yet I will usually click to unblock posts itt because this thread is a favourite and we’ve previously engaged ok on here. So believe me, I didn’t click on yr posts expecting to say what I am now, wtf?

You think Kate left and it’s other people to blame? You at the very least had a part in it, if you think your posts to her were entirely innocent, then, what a joke. Honestly, the thing that happened on the trans thread was absolutely disgraceful, I don’t know why you expect to be able to speak to people like that and then pretend, weeks later, that nothing is amiss your side?

By the way, you are very much a poster that people step on eggshells around, and your endless posturing as some sort of iconoclast that’s ~unfairly~ maligned is neither correct nor appropriate.

And yeah I’ll probably get FPed to hell and back for this, but if it earns me a tempban, so be it.

scampo italiano (gyac), Friday, 11 September 2020 08:25 (three years ago) link

Kate's last post:

Kate (rushomancy) wrote this on thread Democratic (Party) Direction on board I Love Everything on 21-Aug-2020

is it possible for you to make a point, or does your programming limit you to tiresome recitations of public information

― sound of scampo talk to me (El Tomboto)

ok, here's a point. your behavior, as a mod and a poster, has been chronically abusive to biden critics for fucking months now, and as much as i respect the other posters in the discussion here, i don't ever get the sense that that respect is reciprocated, and i don't feel safe being part of this board right now.

But why would you take *her* actual words and explanations as to her motives at face value, when you can just vent your own prejudices and beefs, and insert your opinions over the actual stated opinions and experiences of trans people.

Specific and Limited Interests (Branwell with an N), Friday, 11 September 2020 08:44 (three years ago) link

I'm tired of the double standards and hypocrisy. I'm used to the misogyny from men - but it's the misogyny and tone-policing and pearl-clutching from women that I find the most hurtful.

Specific and Limited Interests (Branwell with an N), Friday, 11 September 2020 08:49 (three years ago) link

Probably because the series of posts up to that one were a really unpleasant thread of you attacking her for what was definitely unintentional on her part, and then you think that had nothing to do with it? That you hadn’t just turned on her in what was supposed to be a safe space for trans people? Ok!

Like, if I have beef with someone back and forth for a while and then someone different is cunty to me in a different thread and I throw my hands up in disgust over ilx, the preceding haranguing had nothing to do with it? Ok. But look, you’ve made it perfectly clear that despite being quite a bit older than I am, you never learned the lesson of “if everyone you meet all day is an asshole...” and have no intention of self-reflection on your behaviour, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Look at that, I’m asking you questions, I thought you were in favour of that kind of thing.

scampo italiano (gyac), Friday, 11 September 2020 08:50 (three years ago) link

It’s not your tone, it’s your content, but please by all means continue on as you are, it’s always notable how much you lean on misogyny even when a woman is telling you your behaviour is fucked.

scampo italiano (gyac), Friday, 11 September 2020 08:52 (three years ago) link

I don't know where you get the idea that me disagreeing with Kate = my "attacking" her.

That my expressing, "hey, this style of conversation isn't really working for me, can we try a different style" is an attack.

That my expressing preferences or differences of opinion or experience in any way is... an attack.

You seem to be incapable of reading anything that comes out of my keyboard as anything except an attack - your interpretation of everything about me and my statements is overwhelmingly negative, in ways that you do not express such disapproval when cis men disagree or act in the exact same ways that I act. But *I'm* the real misogynist here. OK!

Specific and Limited Interests (Branwell with an N), Friday, 11 September 2020 08:56 (three years ago) link

Like you think I didn't notice how you went straight to "WTF-ing" on the second thoughts thread the minute I revived an old thread talking about butts.

But Neanderthal revives an old thread talking about butts - not a peep out of you!

Specific and Limited Interests (Branwell with an N), Friday, 11 September 2020 08:58 (three years ago) link

This is all very tumblr, which is bitterly funny for a number of reasons. You didn’t express it in a casual “hey, this way isn’t working for me” way now did you? Do you think your behaviour is unquestionable and you’re always right? Say so and I’ll write you off forever, because there’s no point in engaging with someone who’s that toxic combo of “always right” and “lacking in self awareness”.

And it’s rich as fuck to call me a misogynist, for the crime of disagreeing with you, when I’ve repeatedly spoken up about misogyny on ilx, which wasn’t exactly fun to do, but look, you’re not capable of looking at yourself honestly, you’re a long way from scoring a hit on me. Amazing how I can argue with male posters and that’s not anything but by disagreeing with you, a single person, I’m suddenly a misogynist.

scampo italiano (gyac), Friday, 11 September 2020 09:02 (three years ago) link

Other people get to disagree, and have that viewed as normal discussion and debate and the exchange of viewpoints. But me disagreeing with people is an "attack".

But when it comes to trans issues, *I* am not considered to be an expert on trans issues, _even though I am trans_ - but you will accept literally any cis gay man as an expert on trans issues.

You are clearly deeply uncomfortable at my very existence, I am well aware that you don't like me, because you have not exactly been quiet about it. But you cast my existence as the problem, rather than your inability to live with difference, or to be around people you just don't *like*.

Specific and Limited Interests (Branwell with an N), Friday, 11 September 2020 09:03 (three years ago) link

It might have been relevant had Neanderthal made that thread under his deadname, after previously posting about being upset about said deadname being used by other people not in reference to you.

scampo italiano (gyac), Friday, 11 September 2020 09:03 (three years ago) link

You're a misogynist because you get all WTF at me, for THINGS THAT MEN DO WITHOUT A PEEP FROM you.

That is a double standard and that is deeply misogynist, yes.

Specific and Limited Interests (Branwell with an N), Friday, 11 September 2020 09:04 (three years ago) link

And now you can't even seem to understand that a trans person coming to terms with stuff they posted under a deadname is NOT THE SAME AS cis people who deliberately invoke a deadname in order to hurt a trans person?

Are you really that incapable of understanding context?

Specific and Limited Interests (Branwell with an N), Friday, 11 September 2020 09:05 (three years ago) link

Interesting interpretation of some of the posters as cis, but since when did knowing what you’re talking about ever stop you offering an opinion?

scampo italiano (gyac), Friday, 11 September 2020 09:05 (three years ago) link

Nothing I say is ever going to change your mind about who or what I am. It is pointless to carry on this discussion.

Please put me back on killfile and I will do the same with you.

Specific and Limited Interests (Branwell with an N), Friday, 11 September 2020 09:07 (three years ago) link

This is a total waste of time, as engaging with you always is. I can italicise so that it makes it very clear I’m referring to a specific context, but it doesn’t fit the argument you want to make, so in the bin it goes.

Look, continue on your merry way, this is really my own fault for innocently clicking to unblock your posts, thinking I’d see what you had to say (that’s my famous intolerance of difference again!), it’s clear you have no intention of reflecting on your behaviour or changing in any way, and it’s not worth talking to someone with less emotional intelligence than your average teenager.

Sorry to everyone else in the thread, I won’t bother posting here anymore.

scampo italiano (gyac), Friday, 11 September 2020 09:08 (three years ago) link

Kate specifically said that she left ILX because of Tombot's moderation. You can believe trans women, or not.

But continuing to scream at a trans person for disagreeing with you, a cis woman, about what transphobia is and isn't, is *definitely* the way to fight transphobia on ILX, yes, 100%.

Specific and Limited Interests (Branwell with an N), Friday, 11 September 2020 09:23 (three years ago) link

The only person screaming is you, and referring to “the board” in her comment implicated you, again, and I would argue more so, given that you went off on her in a thread that was supposed to be a safe place. I’d suggest you’re so stuck on this particular point because you don’t like having your behaviour challenged or questioned in any way, but that would be misogyny or something. You can try this all day with me, but someone who can’t reflect on their behaviour isn’t going to be remotely capable of an honest take on someone else’s. Sorry!

scampo italiano (gyac), Friday, 11 September 2020 09:27 (three years ago) link

What happened between me and Kate on the trans thread, was a *mutual* disagreement, between two trans people – where we both decided to do the mature thing, and end the conversation respectfully, rather than continue to risk hurting each *other*. That *both* people in that conversation felt the conversation was becoming painful and decided to end it – but you only seem to care about the feelings of *one* of those parties?

Are you even aware of the level of blithe presumption, that you, a cis woman in a heterosexual relationship, are repeatedly lecturing an actual trans person on what was and wasn’t transphobic?

When you yourself display such ignorance that you cannot seem to tell the difference between "trans person trying to reconcile their own feelings about their recorded past under their deadname" with "deliberate deadnaming by a cis person".

(and if you want a specific example of the latter, go and read the full trans thread, and you will see D-40, swinging into a specifically trans thread to deliberately deadname one of the people that asked for the thread to be started. This has been going on a long time.)

If you were, actually, confused as to why I revived the thread, the appropriate thing to have done, would have been to say something like, "hey, Branwell, you’re normally pretty sensitive about your deadname – what’s with the revive?" You *didn’t* challenge me. You didn’t even question me. You don’t seem capable of treating me like a vulnerable human being with needs and sensitivities, you aren’t capable of treating me like a rational actor with motives you haven’t grasped – you treat me like an unexploded bomb, because *you* are too frightened or threatened or just plain unable to handle the fact that you just ~just don’t like me~ to ask that direct question, instead of reacting with "WTF" and passive-aggressively sniping and directing others to go to the poll to lower the FP margin. Instead of stopping to ask "what *is* happening here?" you have already pre-decided the worst possible interpretation, and that it needs to be punished - but it's me who can't handle conflict? Really?

If you have already decided that I’m a monster, then everything I do will seem monstrous to you. That does not make me a monster. And I’m not interested in proving my humanity again and again to someone so determined to monster me. Now good day to you.

Specific and Limited Interests (Branwell with an N), Friday, 11 September 2020 13:29 (three years ago) link

Sorry, how was I directing others to the poll? That’s conspiratorial thinking. Don’t bother answering that, because I would really prefer you not reply to me ever again.

You seem to disregard, once again, the fact that I am not referring to deadnaming, either by people past or present, but a separate incident where the name in question was used by someone else. Deliberate deadnaming is disgraceful, imo, and I will never defend it.

I thought you were going to killfile me, but you determined to have the last word, so here’s mine: you’ve finally posted something I agree with you on, about treating you like an unexploded bomb - which actually I said upthread already. Except it’s not just me, is it? Don’t you notice how people don’t engage with you much, or how they just don’t get into it as much? That’s on you and how you interact with people, even people who agree with you a lot. But again, I sense I’m wasting my time typing this.

Oh and anyone who is reading this and who disagrees with this characterisation? If you are walking on eggshells around someone constantly, that’s implicitly saying that their feelings matter more. Whether you intend to or not, that’s the effect. How that factors into a healthy forum, well.

scampo italiano (gyac), Friday, 11 September 2020 13:41 (three years ago) link

I don't want to sound like Tiny Tim but I value every person's POV on this thread, Branwell included. I generally find it hard to keep up with who's said what to whom on other threads so apologise if I'm missing egregious behaviour; sometimes I need things spelt out. I wish, in general, disagreement didn't have to be seen as attack - I think that would be the main thing keeping me from posting stuff, it's easier to just not say anything if I disagree with sth but I do still have this idea, accurate or not, of ILX being a place where posts can be taken at face value rather than 'oh so you think...'-type inferences (and I am not aiming this at anything in particular posted here recently!) running off on a tangent so the original post is forgotten (as I have noticed on other online communities).

I have times when I happy to butt heads with others (haha butt heads) and times when I can't be bothered, or more likely feel I don't have the full picture so best to watch and learn.

kinder, Friday, 11 September 2020 17:26 (three years ago) link

But no one seems to GAF when women or trans people leave.

What? I can think of several specific women mentioned when discussions of posters people miss happen.

Notes on Scampo (tokyo rosemary), Friday, 11 September 2020 17:27 (three years ago) link

If you are walking on eggshells around someone constantly, that’s implicitly saying that their feelings matter more. Whether you intend to or not, that’s the effect. How that factors into a healthy forum, well.

it is and it isn't? Like, that is one of the things that people (mostly cis-white-men) complain about with cancel culture and "the new politeness" ... that they can't just be themselves and make the jokes they were used to making, that they now have to walk on eggshells and constantly police themselves in case someone gets offended. Considering you, gyac, seem very concerned about social justice and trans rights, I doubt you want to be on the same side as the dudes who resent the fact they can't make rape jokes anymore (e.g. what's going on in the gawker thread) without being attacked?

The way I try to think about it and act on it (not that I'm by any means a paragon) is that everyone's feelings matter and that some people have greater sensitivities and care more about different things. Like as if I'm hosting a party or something ... I want everyone to be able to enjoy themselves. Granted, that doesn't always happen, and people will rub each other the wrong way, and some people are just having a bad day or week or something ... idk, maybe this is a dumb analogy .. but I want to try to make it possible for everyone to be able to have a good time at the party and feel respected.

sarahell, Friday, 11 September 2020 17:55 (three years ago) link

I doubt you want to be on the same side as the dudes who resent the fact they can't make rape jokes anymore (e.g. what's going on in the gawker thread) without being attacked?

She's not! And I find it odd that you would think they are the same. I'm just thinking about my own experiences in my life with people who are volatile, and it's nothing like being unable to make offensive jokes.

Notes on Scampo (tokyo rosemary), Friday, 11 September 2020 18:40 (three years ago) link

I think the issue is what that volatility looks like and where it comes from? I just felt super uncomfortable with the generalization that she was making! And I'm glad that someone called me on my generalization tbh, because I thought about breaking it down in a more differentiated way. ... Like yeah, there are people who are super volatile and that translates into abusive behavior.

And the issue is -- how do you deal with that if you have compassion for the person but you are tired of being on the receiving end of abuse? ... I think about the abusive people I've known. And most of them have suffered some major trauma in their lives.

My point with the "eggshells" response, is that there are people who you do feel like you have to walk on eggshells around, because they have suffered trauma, and it's a compassionate, thoughtful way to behave. In a lot of cases, the sensitivity required doesn't make the person requiring it a monster.

And I am not dismissing the feelings of resentment ... there is naturally, I think, a sense of things not being fair, that you have to figure out how to handle individually. It just ... depends ... and obviously ilx is just a message board, and we don't have the same obligations to one another as one would to friends or comrades or family (however you define it). I think the one rule is "don't be a dick," and I'm just saying, let's think about how best not to be dicks.

sarahell, Friday, 11 September 2020 18:57 (three years ago) link

I know I've posted about this a lot over the past few years, but, almost 4 years ago, 36 people died in a fire at an underground show in my city, i was friends with a half dozen of the deceased. It was a super traumatic event for so many people I knew. And because thousands of people were affected, invariably, people responded differently to that trauma. And there were definitely really intense arguments related to people not being sensitive enough, etc. Thousands of people walking on eggshells around each other for ... a long time. And I have a dark sense of humor. My tendencies, in situations like that, are to make jokes to be able to deal with the horror and trauma and absurdity of it all, as well as to try to take productive action to fix things. And here was a situation where I had to be very very cautious about my sense of humor. Early on, I was talking with a friend of mine, who has similar coping mechanisms, and we came up with the shorthand "<3 and :(" (heart and sad) ... like this is a time where the way to be good people and compassionate -- publicly -- is to confine ourselves to "<3" and ":(" out of sensitivity to the way others process trauma.

sarahell, Friday, 11 September 2020 19:07 (three years ago) link

I’ll say this only once: I blocked you a good while back, sarahell, and your last two posts have just reminded me why that was a good decision. Please don’t reply to me again, I don’t want to click to read one of your posts, and I am only doing so because tokyo rosemary was kind enough to defend me against that, frankly, absurd, inane and insulting accusation. GUBU, as we might put it at home.

It’s interesting that you think sticking your neck out for someone who’ll never do the same back for you and lecturing us about being kind - as though none of us have trauma, our own stuff going on, as though it is the job of the mods to take this kind of responsibility for another person when they are neither paid nor qualified to do so. A person being hurt didn’t give them carte blanche for bad behaviour.

In my case, my phrasing of the eggshells example was directly thinking of my own childhood, which was abusive at times, where it has taken me almost my whole life to start processing what had happened and get past it in some way. I actually feel disgusted at myself for posting this, but what can I say, I’m really sick of being talked at/past by people who have no idea who they’re talking to or about, or the kind of red flags their behaviour might raise.

Anyway, as I said, I’ve had you blocked for some months now, please respect that and don’t contact me again.

scampo italiano (gyac), Friday, 11 September 2020 19:15 (three years ago) link

I'm sorry you had an abusive childhood -- and I'm not actually "contacting" you -- like do you have some settings where you get notifications when you are mentioned in a thread? Like, idk, you are doing this thing that seems super passive-aggressive where you attack people, like super scathing over-the-top attacks, and then say, "how dare you respond?!" ...

Like:

A person being hurt didn’t give them carte blanche for bad behaviour.

seriously, this is you right now.

sarahell, Friday, 11 September 2020 19:22 (three years ago) link

And really -- I don't mean those posts as "lectures" -- maybe they are lectures to my past self -- obviously we are all adults (with the exception of pestosock69420) and have different experiences and are thus gonna perceive things differently and respond differently ... like if there are dynamics here that are triggering you, gyac, I respect that. ... It totally seems like that's what's going on considering your vehemence about stuff that seems ... idk easier to shrug off for some people.

sarahell, Friday, 11 September 2020 19:29 (three years ago) link

sarahell, i don't think i knew about the fire. that's horrific.

kinder, Friday, 11 September 2020 20:22 (three years ago) link

anyway -- re-reading what I wrote, I probably did come off as condescending and prescriptive and I apologize.

sarahell, Friday, 11 September 2020 20:25 (three years ago) link

kinder - thanks for that. Yeah ... it was. It made me rethink a lot of things about how I wanted to be, what I wanted to do with my life, who I wanted to spend time with, etc.

sarahell, Friday, 11 September 2020 20:31 (three years ago) link

I have not slept well in a couple of days, but I am going to try to say this with as much compassion as I can.

gyac, I am sorry you had an abusive childhood. I am sorry you went through those things, and I am sorry they have shaped your reactions the way they have, and that you experience the responses you do.

At the same time, I am not your mother. I am not responsible for what you experienced. I am not responsible for things that you project onto me, because of your childhood abuse. If your childhood experiences are affecting you to the point where you are projecting them onto random internet strangers, again, I say this with compassion: please address these things in therapy. This shit is hurting yourself. (It is also hurting me.) This is, as Sarahell very wisely observes, perpetuating abuse rather than dealing with it.

In the past, I experienced bullying and targeted harassment - on ILX and other spaces - so bad that it left me with mild PTSD. Through seeking therapy, I have learned to manage my own triggers better, and I am far, far less reactive than I used to be. (And multiple people on ILX have reached out to me off-board, to say that they have noticed the change, so this is not just me tooting my own horn.) I've learned to be more open about what my triggers are, and recognise which ones are my responsibility to handle, and which ones it is valid and reasonable to ask others to negotiate.

Things it is completely reasonable to ask: "stop making rape jokes"; "don't misgender me"; "stop using these slurs, and avoid these tropes". It is NOT reasonable to ask another person to never disagree with anyone else ever again, because *you* are uncomfortable handling other people's conflict.

Do you know *why* ILX doesn't tolerate rape jokes any more? It's not because everyone collectively sat down 12 years ago and politely decided they weren't very nice, so everyone will just stop. It's because several people on this thread, myself included (my memory of people's previous screen names is not good, I definitely remember In Orbit, Roxymuzak, and several others - forgive for not namechecking evereyone - and a couple of dudes who were mostly survivors) stopped asking nicely, and started LOSING OUR SHIT very loudly when people made rape jokes, playing good-cop-bad-cop, having very public disagreements and yes, clusterfucks, and pushed things to the point where it was actually less hassle for moderators to step in and intervene and actively STOP posters from going around with screen names like "no means yes, yes means anal" (who else remembers that incident? anyone?) than to allow it to continue.

That process of "losing our shit" cost me a huge toll on my mental health, which was a thing I had to address in therapy, but it did work. ILX does, NOW, have way, way less rape jokes than the rest of the internet. If people feel they have to ~walk on eggshells~ around me, rather than risk making rape jokes - I'm fine with that. I feel that was a price worth paying.

Sometimes it is necessary to stop asking nicely. Sometimes it is necessary to disagree. Sometimes it is necessary to demand, without apology. Sometimes it is necessary to go through conflict. Without disagreement - growth, change, growing stronger, growing more flexible - none of these things happen.

I fully admit that my greatest flaw is that I am so used to thinking against the grain, that sometimes I get stuck in disagreement-mode. I'm autistic, changing gears is very difficult for me. It is a thing I am working on. I've tried to be honest about what works for me, and what exacerbates situations. I've tried to get better at "this is what I think is happening here, what do you think is happening here" conversations, but I am never going to stop being autistic. If someone cannot look at me doing that, and see "this is a confused autistic person, trying to work through a disagreement" but can only see "this is an unexploded bomb" - the problem is not me or my autism or my opinions or my tone. I cannot defuse bombs that exist in other people's minds.

Specific and Limited Interests (Branwell with an N), Sunday, 13 September 2020 07:45 (three years ago) link

No, your greatest flaw would be projecting your own issues onto other people and then loftily talking like you don’t do this exact thing all the time, over years and years and years. You think that you can act as though you please and nobody may say anything to you about it because they’ll get this torrent of irrelevant words, but I’m sick of it, and not a single word you’ve said to me has changed my mind or made me think I was wrong to say what I did. Not one!

Neither of you know what you’re talking about, but my God do you like to act like you do, and it’s, frankly, embarrassing for someone who is so blind to their own faults to lecture while ignoring the mote in their own eye.

Killfile me, please. I am not planning to interact with you, but if you are going to write this nonsense then you’re not going to leave it there as though it’s right. I really don’t need to read you bringing up grudges you’ve held from 12 years ago or whatever, because you think that that is important or it matters at all. Nor have you once answered the questions I’ve asked you. Don’t take that as an invitation to respond to me, by the way, because you haven’t done so previously.

Oh and really - since you leaned on the lurkers supporting you in email, I’ll do it too- numerous people have reached out to me over the posts I’ve made to thank me, which, idk, suggests strongly to me that it’s actually not all in my head (nice gaslighting from you both on that, btw)! The point I made in bringing that up to sarahell was that other people have experienced abuse, and that I know the pattern when I see it. I didn’t bring it up for either of you to condescend to me like you care about hurting people on ilx - if you did, one of you wouldn’t behave as you do and the other wouldn’t follow you around enabling it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Tl;dr - leave me alone, stop pretending you’re some sage or speaking from authority on anything let alone me, leave other people alone.

scampo italiano (gyac), Sunday, 13 September 2020 08:40 (three years ago) link

"Neither of you know what you're talking about" is a fairly patronising thing to keep repeating even if those people weren't talking about their own PTSD and tragedies. Is this specific to particular statements, as I'm unclear on what the actual source of disagreement is, other than Kate's reasons for leaving/hiatus from ILX?

I can't see you addressing a question to sarahell, and to Branwell you asked a question and immediately followed it with 'don't bother answering' and the others appeared to be rhetorical, at least in the last couple of days. I'm not saying this as an attack, I don't think I have any history with you gyac but this is me taking posts at face value and trying to figure out how we can keep this thread going with fewer misunderstandings or perceived attacks.

kinder, Sunday, 13 September 2020 09:34 (three years ago) link

It is interesting how you say “I’m not saying this as an attack”, but yet gloss over the rest of the things that were said, as though it would ever be acceptable to infer someone was making stuff up because of past experiences they’d shared. Only regret I have here is sharing that because of the obtuseness, but look kinder, if that’s the behaviour you think is most objectionable, then I don’t think we have much to say to each other.

scampo italiano (gyac), Sunday, 13 September 2020 09:44 (three years ago) link

Look, I'm just lost now. Who has inferred that someone was making stuff up?

The thing that I was qualifying as 'not an attack' was my pointing out that you had said 'nor have you once answered the questions I've asked you' but that I could see as an observer that any questions were not posed particularly clearly as inviting a response. The 'not an attack' was specific to that, as in, I'm not trying to get at you but to suggest that not answering the questions was not a pointed attack but more likely a difference in how the posts were read.

I mean the rest of it isn't an attack either but I'm not intentionally 'glossing over' things, it's more that this single, minor point I have tried to make was misinterpreted - I accept blame here as I must not be communicating in the clearest way - and has to prompt posts like this, so addressing further points would take up more time than I have, and I think I'll leave it there. My post was also intended as the start of a conversation, awaiting your response, not a summary essay on which behaviour was or wasn't objectionable.

kinder, Sunday, 13 September 2020 10:00 (three years ago) link

Sarahell, I do remember the fire, and I do remember you talking about it on ILX, with both a huge amount of emotional rawness and also great sensitivity and insightfulness and emotional intelligence.

I am sorry that you lost your friends, in such a tragic and horrifying way. But I also think the way that you describe being able to use that traumatic experience to redress and change things in your own life, and your own actions and interactions, is really moving, and I can only aspire to that level of emotional integrity. I really respect you for that.

Grebo X Performance (Branwell with an N), Sunday, 13 September 2020 10:35 (three years ago) link

suggests strongly to me that it’s actually not all in my head (nice gaslighting from you both on that, btw)! The point I made in bringing that up to sarahell was that other people have experienced abuse, and that I know the pattern when I see it.

I am so sorry that you interpreted what I said that way -- I actually meant the opposite. Like, you, because of your experience, are seeing red flags and patterns that are real, that do exist ... and I don't see them or maybe I just don't see them as threatening, not because I am right and you are wrong, or that I am omniscient (even though I know I can come across as condescending to you) ... but because I am not attuned to those threats and patterns the way you are, because I had the privilege growing up of being able to ignore that.

sarahell, Sunday, 13 September 2020 17:47 (three years ago) link

xp Branwell -- thanks, that is very kind of you to say!

sarahell, Sunday, 13 September 2020 17:51 (three years ago) link

two weeks pass...

::does quick incense burning cleansing ritual to clear out residual bad vibes::

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/q9EwYh7J4TOP71FvCjTCLk8mrZcIDgm0ODvOAGV_FQ6cplfS3rgfIswr2OZ-PVPOgfVj0RhFnIAEEx76uSYHg17OqP2pWkafaaEFVryiU3YgOU6zkQQP

Non-Boys, I want to talk to you about a touchy subject - COMPLAINT

Do you feel that you are / aren't allowed to complain about things? Do you feel that your complaints will be resolved, or that there would be consequences for *you* if you complain?

The thing that brings this up is something rather silly, just a poor experience on AirBNB, but... still felt salient.

So I had to leave a 'negative' review on an AirBNB. There were multiple small, but significant things wrong with the flat, e.g. amenities that the flat was listed as having, but which were either not present or not working when I got there. (Wifi didn't work; washing machine was broken; the listing said there was a hair dryer when there wasn't!) To the point where it did impact my stay. So I felt it was fair to flag up these inaccuracies to other people who might stay there in the future. But as I wrote my review, I felt racked with guilt, like, was it fair for me to complain, the host was clearly doing the best he could, etc. etc. and that it was *mean* to point out the inaccuracies. So I ended up leaving a review that really accentuated and raved about the good things (the view was amazing!) but then pointed out only one of the things that wasn't working, but followed it up quickly with a compliment to the host to make sure my complaint wasn't seen as *personal*.

When I went back to the listing, I saw that the man who had stayed there before me had left an excoriating review, pointing out other failures that I hadn't noticed, and condeming the host as rude and unhelpful.

And there was a part of me that just went o_0 because ... you know, it feels like there really is such a double standard around complaint? That if I complain, I will be seen as an overly demanding 'Karen', that my complaint will be seen as a personal attack as me being mean or personally offensive to the person complained about - that the complaint will reflect badly on *me*, that my AirBNB guest rating will go down if I am honest about a negative experience? But then I see cis men complaining without a second thought, their complaints are taken seriously and viewed as honest reflections of poor experiences.

Does anyone else experience this weird thing around complaining?

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 30 September 2020 07:51 (three years ago) link

oh definitely! I am also wary of complaining because not only am I a woman, I'm a white woman, a middle-aged white woman ... like I definitely suffer from Karenfear (I bet this could be translated into a word in German lol).

sarahell, Wednesday, 30 September 2020 15:37 (three years ago) link

I think there are different types of complaint scenarios though -- there are private complaints, and then those like the AirBnB one you talk about, where your complaints are public.

The latter type is where I am most wary like you were, because there are multiple factors at play, as you mention, right? There's the potential for unfair things to happen to other people as a result of your complaint, and then there's potential for bad things to happen to _you_ as a result of your complaint. And because of the public nature of it, you have next to no control over the responses to your complaint. You can easily imagine the worst responses, right, and then you think, "Is it worth it? Just to let people know these things?"

maybe that's just me idk

sarahell, Wednesday, 30 September 2020 15:49 (three years ago) link

It's complicated, with algorithmic ratings, like I will *never* give someone a less than 100% review if I think it is going to affect their job or their livelihood? Because of exactly that - too high a potential for unfair things to happen to other people! (I don't know where AirBNB hosts sit in that livelihood-at-stake stakes?)

But with public complaints - it can be so fraught! Like, you have to do that cost-benefit analysis, of 'is the potential blowback to me going to be worth either trying to get this put right or warning someone else what to expect'? It both amazes and astonishes me that there really are people for whom such a public complaint is ~no big deal~ - did he not anticipate blowback, or did he just not care? So I don't think it's just you, but I do wonder how gendered this is. Like, I notice often in public, the way women in particular seem to have to apologise three times in order to express an opinion, especially a differing opinion. That to express not just a differing, but a negative, or critical or complaining opinion, in public? To internalise anticipated or potential bad things to the point of... sometimes it is not worth the bother, even potential bother, of speaking up and making the complaint. Is this a *thing*, and what is it doing?

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 30 September 2020 16:16 (three years ago) link

I definitely am less sensitive about doing this when the criticism or complaint is directed to a cis white male. Like, I think about the punching-up/punching-down aspect of it.

sarahell, Wednesday, 30 September 2020 17:07 (three years ago) link

Not to over-inspect the mechanisms of making complaints in various frameworks, online, etc, but really if something isn't right or doesn't suit you or doesn't work, isn't the first thing to ask for it to be fixed? Like before it's too late to get the item or service or fulfill the function of whatever it is? Problem solving is not complaining imo but in order to be genuine you do have to come from the problem-solving mindset and not, like, a fault-finding one. But assuming you do that, and you just want the transaction to work properly for everyone's benefit, is that "complaining"?

Things should work the way they say on the box. If they don't, they should be fixed, or an effort or accommodation should be made, anyway. If that is rejected or not in good faith, then it's time for a complaint, surely?

The gendered stuff obviously exists, and sucks, and is not helpful for being in the world. :(

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 30 September 2020 17:14 (three years ago) link

Frankly if an Air bnb is being advertised as having things it doesn't have, that's fraud. If the owner knew a thing was broken, they needed to tell you before-hand and if it was a major problem, offer you a discount or refund or whatever.

Otoh when it's, like, a survey from a call center about whether their employee was helpful enough, the only moral thing to do is give them the highest score because that's a shitty, punitive system that penalizes people for not meeting impossible standards.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 30 September 2020 17:20 (three years ago) link

The thing about complaining that is punching up - complaining against a cis white male is the most dangerous form of complaint, in terms of how likely he is to punch *back*. (And also how himpathy will mean that he is as likely to be seen as the victim of your complaint, as you are to been seen as having a legitimate grievance?)

The AirBNB thing - it was all a bit... you know, I tried raising the stuff with the host, and didn't get very far. I don't think he *knew* the washing machine was broken until I tried to use it - and he did offer to let me use the machine at his house, but by the time I got that message, I had already washed my smalls in the sink, so I didn't put that in the review, but it just added to the general... this is more faff than I signed up for on holiday! But, like, the WiFi thing, the name of the network he gave me to log onto just didn't appear. And he kept sending me more helpful things and instructions, before finally telling me to google how to get onto a network. (Never mind that's a bit patronising, like - I do actually work in IT, but how is he to know that based solely on an old photo of a middle-aged female-looking person. Hmmm. Whatever.) When, actually, after doing some troubleshooting myself, the problem was - the WiFi hotspot itself only had reception in one room of the house, the room at the very back, away from the nice views. In the end, not having easily available internet in my living/sleeping area for a week didn't do me any harm, in fact, maybe it did me some good, being on holiday with very limited internet! But - for many people, myself included, the knowledge of "there is/isn't good internet" is a deciding factor in taking a flat, and that's the kind of thing *I* would have liked to have known beforehand, and I might have taken a different flat.

Hmmm, this is probably way too much unneccessary information about how much I asked for things to be fixed versus the end result of 'public AirBNB complaint'. Sorry!

But the line between 'asking for a problem to be fixed' and 'making a complaint' is not always very clear. And I do think that the *who* of who is asking, often tends to guide whose problems are viewed as fixable things requiring solutions and who is 'just complaining because they are a complainy old Karen'.

I am overthinking things, as usual, but as often is the case, I just really wanted a kind of temperature check from other people, about whether I'm overthinking again or actually noticing something!

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 30 September 2020 17:44 (three years ago) link

But expecting there to be Wifi, and a working washing machine, and a hairdryer, as advertised, when there were none of these things - is reasonable grounds for complaint, yes? Just wondering why I *felt* so unreasonable making a complaint!

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 30 September 2020 17:47 (three years ago) link

I definitely feel like that when the issue is with a person or a small business and have that thing you mentioned earlier that "maybe they are just doing the best they can" ... if it were a hotel chain, I would definitely feel less guilty complaining than re an apartment owned by some dude. ... but oh geez, the thing with the Wifi and the dude obviously not knowing he had a problem or how to fix the problem and then being condescending, especially considering the troubleshooting of internet connections is not an esoteric skill. Like, if dude had given you instructions about how to fix the washing machine or suggested a helpful workaround, that would (to me at least) be less annoying than assuming technical ineptitude re the wifi. ... I might have put something in the review in a "damning with faint praise" style about that. ... Actually, I probably wouldn't have said anything, because I am kinda lazy in that regard.

sarahell, Wednesday, 30 September 2020 18:18 (three years ago) link

Anyone that pays money for an accommodation with wifi and a washer is going to expect those things. It's not complaining if you didn't get what you paid for and you tried to fix the problem. If the previous guest had left a review saying there was no wifi and the washer didn't work, would you have stayed there?

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 30 September 2020 18:29 (three years ago) link

I mean for SURE the complaining gender gap is real.

Also, in a related way, there are people who are very comfortable asking for whatever they think they can get until the other party says "no," and there are people who are extremely reluctant to ask for things in case the answer is "no" and it inconveniences or distresses the other party. I think of the former as "assholes" but the former thing of the latter as "passive aggressive," or so I've been told. :DDD

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 30 September 2020 18:41 (three years ago) link

If the previous guest had left a review saying there was no wifi and the washer didn't work, would you have stayed there?

No, I absolutely wouldn't!

And this is what is grinding my gears about this specific instance, now that I think about it more carefully - that after I booked it, the host contacted me to say that the current guest was being a PITA because the television wasn't working. And he said, if that was a problem, I should just cancel, no charge, and find somewhere else? And I wrote back and said, well, I don't really watch television so that wouldn't be a problem, but I do need internet - was there WiFi? And he wrote back to assure me that yes, there was WiFi, everything would be fine!

And I got there, and obviously everything was NOT fine, and *now*, I'm wondering - like, did I end up trying really hard to be a GOOD guest, and not complain or be a PITA, because I didn't want to be like his previous whiney guest (who it turned out, actually had a point to his whining, I doubt it was just the television that wasn't working!)

Like, that goes along with your point about ask/guess cultures. And sometimes you can try so hard not to inconvenience the other party that you end up inconveniencing yourself, and feel put out about it. Or so *I've* been told. ;)

Anyway, I should stop worrying about this AirBNB thing, like I'm sure he hasn't given it a second thought, and anyway, Scotland was great, the Highlands are super pretty and I did have an amazing view, with my great-great-great-grandfather's tombstone glowering at me across the river every morning at breakfast!

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 30 September 2020 19:29 (three years ago) link

two weeks pass...

I've been reading the new Kate Manne book, _Entitled_, and it is absolutely amazing, it picks up many of the threads in Down Girl and runs with them. There's so much in here that is so relevant to so much of what has been going on... ::gestures at everything::

I really want to start a Kate Manne thread, but I think it would either be a) a ghost town because no one I ever talk to has ever actually read her or b) strong chance it would turn into a clusterfuck of feelings about ~the thread starter~ and their ~presumed opinions~ and naught to do with Kate Manne and her brilliant arguments at all. There have been so many times recent on ILX where I want to just get out a Manne book and quote her (usually any time anyone mentions the word "misogyny") ad lib, but I just think her thoughts are too important to be tarred by association with an unpopular poster.

But still, Kate Manne is brilliant, and I want everyone to read her.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 16 October 2020 08:19 (three years ago) link

I've heard of Kate Boy but not Kate Manne :)

kinder, Friday, 16 October 2020 09:56 (three years ago) link

Haha, yeah, it's funny that the person who founded Health At Every Size is called Linda Bacon, and the woman who writes most effectively and eloquently about misogyny is Kate Manne? What's the word for that, when you wonder if someone's name somehow shaped or affected their path in life?

Branwell with an N, Friday, 16 October 2020 10:13 (three years ago) link

I'm going to end up doing that thing, where instead of putting my comments on the thread(s) that inspired them, I end up putting my comments here, mostly because I don't want to deal with the resulting clusterfuck and FPs - not against what I'm saying, but because it's me saying them. But if I don't say *something* it ends up thoughtworming my head until I can't think about anything else.

Here's Manne on the differences/similarities between Sexism and Misogyny:

Misogyny should be understood primarily as the “law enforcement” branch of a patriarchal order, which has the overall function of policing and enforcing its governing norms and expectations. (...) Sexism should be understood primarily as the “justificatory” branch of a patriarchal order, which consists in ideology that has the overall function of rationalizing and justifying patriarchal social relations.

In this picture, sexism will tend to discriminate between men and women, typically by alleging sex differences beyond what is known or could be known, and sometimes counter to our best current scientific evidence. Misogyny will typically differentiate between good women and bad ones, and punishes the latter. Overall, sexism and misogyny share a common purpose — to maintain or restore a patriarchal social order. But sexism purports to merely be being reasonable; misogyny gets nasty and tries to force the issue.

This explains so many things - a) why women who are viewed as bad attract *so much more* misogyny than women who stick to the lines deemed correct or good positions for women. It's not just that they're Bad, they are ~bad while female~ so the criticism escalates and becomes more vicious because it invokes 'attacks on improper femaleness' on top of just 'criticism of doing bad things'. b) why people think it's OK or justified or even *good* that women who are Demonstrably Bad (e.g. JK Rowling, Theresa May) get so much misogyny mixed in with the criticism. And finally c) why so many women so will enthusiastically join in with Misogyny, even while they represent themselves as being against Sexism - policing the Bad Women is both a way of publicly and personally assigning themselves to the category of 'Good Woman'; and also one of the few ways that women can exercise power or control under patriarchy.

But it shows why this whole 'condoning, excusing or justifying misogyny against Demonstrably Bad Women' is such a loaded gun with two barrels. It doesn't just perform the function of putting down the Demonstrably Bad Woman. It performs the function of reinforcing that idea 'It's perfectly good and just and necessary to exercise misogyny against any woman judged and found Bad no matter whose those standards are'. It becomes OK to misogynise Any Woman You Disagree With because the standards are always double; it is always almost impossible for any woman to meet them, no matter how perfect. It is always a lose/lose proposition.

It *is* possible to criticism women without lapsing into misogyny, double standards, and the rest. But this is why so few people manage to do it. Under male supremacy, it feels *righteous* to weaponise misogyny against Bad Women, despite or because of the fact that that is literally what misogyny is intended to do - punish Bad Women and set an example for women who would like to be seen as good. Hence why it's so impossibly fraught for women facing both 'criticism and misogyny' to separate one from the other. They don't come with neat little lablels to differentiate one from the other.

Anyway, that's been my thoughtworm for the past week. But reading Kate Manne helps me manage that thoughtworm.

I think she's great and everyone should read her.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 16 October 2020 10:54 (three years ago) link

It *is* possible to criticism women without lapsing into misogyny, double standards, and the rest.

yeah, totally! It's similar to the arguments elsewhere about fat-shaming. There are so many things you can say to disparage and verbally destroy certain US government officials -- that are horrible people that deserve the rage -- without making it about their weight or other "inferior" physical traits.

And I feel like some of it is just habit, in a way, this language is used because these are words and phrases that come most quickly to mind as being "punishing language" because of the misogynistic, white supremacist, homophobic, fatphobic (etc) nature of society. Like, when a fellow driver gets annoyed that I have inconvenienced them, they will often yell "fuck you, fat bitch" at me ... are they really thinking about the specific words they will use to express their anger? I dunno, but I doubt it, I think because "fuck you, fat bitch" is a common insult, it is what comes out of their mouth in the heat of the moment. Like, part of me feels like it's not entirely an internalized anger "at women" but it's partly about some form of pattern recognition or categorization -- like "this person is bad and also a woman" therefore I will express my anger in this way, because this is how we respond to "bad + woman" --- like, some insidious horrible version of "a baby cat is a kitten, a baby dog is a puppy ..." like mnemonics for names for things of different types.

sarahell, Friday, 16 October 2020 17:30 (three years ago) link

I don’t think you’d portray it in such a neutral light if you read the book. The pattern recognition *is* the thing.

She’s just done this whole chapter on the religious Right that draws parallels and makes explicit the logic of entitlements that links together both anti-abortion rhetoric AND bathroom bill style transphobia - which just made my head explode with its brilliance and clarity, and making sense of things that seemed nonsensical to me.

She’s just such an amazing thinker and writer!

Branwell with an N, Friday, 16 October 2020 19:01 (three years ago) link

oh, I am not saying that "neutrally" -- like, it probably sounds more neutral because it's text on a screen -- I guess what I was trying to say is just that there are habits of emotions and thought, and habits of language -- the words people use to express those emotional and logic patterns. Like, there are two parts to it.

sarahell, Friday, 16 October 2020 19:27 (three years ago) link

And the issues of "hate speech" and policing language do play a role -- because they affect the language habits of people, but the emotional/logic parts remain the same, but the expression of the misogyny will shift.

sarahell, Friday, 16 October 2020 19:28 (three years ago) link

Ah, my mistake - apologies for the misread. Thanks for explaining further, that makes more sense.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 16 October 2020 20:38 (three years ago) link

one month passes...

I just ordered this unusual menstrual cup to try - it’s disposable and it sits higher up than a normal cup. I’ve never bothered trying a cup before but the selling point on this one is that you can have sex while wearing it. I got a referral code that gets you $5 off if anyone else wants to try it:

https://www.talkable.com/x/P8H02X

just1n3, Wednesday, 2 December 2020 03:49 (three years ago) link

one month passes...

I keep getting these ads for a product called Lume Deoderant and they are kinda icky idk, do y'all know what I'm talking about?

sarahell, Wednesday, 27 January 2021 19:22 (three years ago) link

Is that the one that has a weird musical commercial, because if so, yes. After watching that commercial, I decided I would never purchase it.

hourspass, Wednesday, 27 January 2021 19:46 (three years ago) link

yes, I didn't listen to the sound of it, but that's what it appeared to be.

sarahell, Wednesday, 27 January 2021 20:04 (three years ago) link

I can think of a handful of professions where the "problems" it is claiming to solve would be useful, but like ... working in an office? At an exercise class? ... it makes me think of those artificially scented kitchen garbage bags.

sarahell, Wednesday, 27 January 2021 20:08 (three years ago) link

it also reminds me of those poopouri ads which made me irrationally angry

sarahell, Wednesday, 27 January 2021 20:09 (three years ago) link

like ... this is why there are HVAC systems in bathrooms!!!!!

sarahell, Wednesday, 27 January 2021 20:11 (three years ago) link

yes very weird ad. also the woman does a fake....french? accent

here 1st (roxymuzak), Thursday, 28 January 2021 15:58 (three years ago) link

Putting on deodorant on your genitals before sex seems, I don’t know, silly? A bad idea? Just wash if you’re that concerned.

Notes on Scampo (tokyo rosemary), Thursday, 28 January 2021 16:16 (three years ago) link

haha i didn't bother to look up what this was, i thought it was armpit deodorant

superdeep borehole (harbl), Thursday, 28 January 2021 16:48 (three years ago) link

harbl, that is because you are a sensible intelligent person!

sarahell, Thursday, 28 January 2021 18:37 (three years ago) link

i accidentally bought scented tampons once & i imagine this deodorant smells like that (i didnt use them, they were weird af)

the last thing a vag needs is artificial fragrance in the mix. so stupid.

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 28 January 2021 18:44 (three years ago) link

it also reminds me of those poopouri ads which made me irrationally angry

― sarahell, Wednesday, January 27, 2021 8:09 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

That stuff is great actually but not for institutional/office bathrooms, we keep it around at home for when a lot of adults are using one bathroom and no one leaves the house anymore.

Ima Gardener (in orbit), Thursday, 28 January 2021 18:50 (three years ago) link

the last thing a vag needs is artificial fragrance in the mix. so stupid.

― terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, January 28, 2021 10:44 AM (twenty-three minutes ago)

yeah ... also I would feel very unsexy with something like that. Like I don't know a dude that's turned on by the smell of febreze ... it strikes me as a real boner-killer of an odor

sarahell, Thursday, 28 January 2021 19:12 (three years ago) link

not to be heterosexist ... I don't know any women that are turned on by the smell of febreze either. I certainly am not.

sarahell, Thursday, 28 January 2021 19:15 (three years ago) link

i am so anti-fragrance. i tried to use a dry shampoo for the first time and was so irritated by the smell i had to wash my hair anyway. to think people are fragrancing their hoo-hahs, well.................

superdeep borehole (harbl), Thursday, 28 January 2021 19:24 (three years ago) link

i am mostly anti-fragrance. I like some scented soaps but not super heavy. I like stuff that smells like mint or cucumber. My hair cleaning product smell problem is always coconut. Almost everything made for my type of hair smells like coconut. I found an ok conditioner that smells like hibiscus-kinda idk but not coconut, which is good! But it isn't as good as the ones that smell like coconut. However it's winter and covid and half the time I am sitting at home wearing a knit hat so I can have less than ideally conditioned hair plus not smell like coconut.

sarahell, Thursday, 28 January 2021 19:48 (three years ago) link

also, when you are trying to stay mostly on the wagon, having hair that smells like a Tiki cocktail does not help.

sarahell, Thursday, 28 January 2021 19:51 (three years ago) link

I especially hate how the branding is very now-ish, very Instagram aesthetics, and yet it's for something SO BACKWARDS that we laugh about it in ads from the 1950s. I expect my super modern product advertising to have less retrograde politics.

Ima Gardener (in orbit), Thursday, 28 January 2021 20:01 (three years ago) link

oh yeah i like good-smelling soap and conditioner and stuff just not like, aggressive smells

superdeep borehole (harbl), Thursday, 28 January 2021 20:04 (three years ago) link

hahahah yes!!! In the 80s too! Summer's Eve for that "not so fresh feeling"!

sarahell, Thursday, 28 January 2021 20:11 (three years ago) link

also just on a basic level, scented stuff for your vag is the quickest way to thrush or at least some kind of irritation

nobody wants that!

idk why these products persist in existing

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 29 January 2021 02:13 (three years ago) link

I thought that lume stuff was for, like, for swampy summer butt crack - not vag?? I keep seeing their ads in YT and that’s the impression I got

just1n3, Friday, 29 January 2021 08:12 (three years ago) link

i think it's for both?

sarahell, Friday, 29 January 2021 08:56 (three years ago) link

It’s also for feet!

Notes on Scampo (tokyo rosemary), Friday, 29 January 2021 12:17 (three years ago) link

I really thought it was more widely known these days that you don’t put anything up yr vag to “deodorize” it unless you actually WANT problems in that area

I’m willing to bet that if you picked 1000 random men and a 1000 random women and scientifically performed an odor test, dicks would be the clear winner of the bad-smell award. But no one is marketing dick deodorant to men.

just1n3, Friday, 29 January 2021 12:52 (three years ago) link

...yet :)

lol

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 29 January 2021 15:42 (three years ago) link

hahahah the idea of someone rubbing a stick deodorant on dick and balls is just ... an odd picture to me? like, does it have instructions about whether hard or flaccid is better for application? ... it's like, there are some products meant to solve embarrassing problems that just create additional embarrassing problems

sarahell, Friday, 29 January 2021 16:00 (three years ago) link

Lol I semi-retract my statement - that spray is basically the same thing as Gold Bond spray, and it’s just a pubes spray. It’s not doing anything about the actual dick problem.

I’m assuming the anti chafe stick is for the tops of men’s inner thighs where their balls rub???

just1n3, Friday, 29 January 2021 16:12 (three years ago) link

what can be done about the actual dick problem, really?

sarahell, Friday, 29 January 2021 16:32 (three years ago) link

Washing it properly!!!! Thankfully this is not an issue I’ve had to deal for 12 yrs but prior to that I def encountered dick that was not being washed properly.

just1n3, Friday, 29 January 2021 17:24 (three years ago) link

ha it was partly a rhetorical question but yes, there are men who regularly embody "fuck washing a dick"

sarahell, Friday, 29 January 2021 17:44 (three years ago) link

ugh this convo is making me feel gross

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 29 January 2021 17:49 (three years ago) link

sorry ... sorry ... sorry!

sarahell, Friday, 29 January 2021 17:50 (three years ago) link

fuck washing a dick

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 29 January 2021 19:12 (three years ago) link

make your fuckwash known hahahaha sorrrrrrrrrrry

sarahell, Friday, 29 January 2021 19:21 (three years ago) link

RE those Flex period discs I mentioned: I finally tried them this week (after 5 yrs with an iud my period has finally started waning) and I like them. I’d prefer a non disposable version since they’re expensive and a pain to dispose of. But getting one in is easier than I expected, although I find it hard to believe that it doesn’t get in the way during sex (haven’t tested that yet). The disc comes out nice and easy but def not suitable for people who aren’t comfortable using applicator-free tampons as it’s a little messy.

just1n3, Monday, 8 February 2021 06:36 (three years ago) link

here's a question for y'all -- friends w/teenage daughters -- when they post pics of their kids on social media, do you notice that if the kid is female, most of the comments are like "how beautiful!" and praise her physical appearance, whereas if the kid is male, the comments are less about that? Does that make you feel icky? How would you respond?

sarahell, Monday, 8 February 2021 20:51 (three years ago) link

Absolutely and I've noticed this at lots of ages. It really pushes my buttons but at the same time can appreciate kids look cute or it's a "nice" "positive" thing to say about a teen. If I'm moved to comment at all I'll generally try and say something less looks-focused... but it can be hard as a photo is basically demanding you pay attention to what's in the photo!

kinder, Tuesday, 9 February 2021 11:03 (three years ago) link

yeah ... it was a friend's daughter's 17th birthday, and I had talked to said friend the day before, and the daughter was struggling with an eating disorder ... so, I didn't comment about her looks at all. I recalled a memory of something my friend told me her daughter did that was super awesome.

sarahell, Tuesday, 9 February 2021 11:35 (three years ago) link

I have a 13yo stepkid and I’m more bothered that she and her friends type those comments to each other tbh like

“omg bae”
“why are you so prettyyyy *crying emoji*”
“hottie”

On one hand, her generation is prob more aware than ever about issues surrounding body positivity and self-image, on the other, there’s just so much pressure on them to look or present themselves a certain way. She’s a fun kid with lots of cool interests and I know she’ll prob grow out of it but it still drives me nuts that that’s how they’re expected to interact with each other online.

I would not have survived growing up in the age of Instagram, that’s for sure.

Roz, Tuesday, 9 February 2021 12:39 (three years ago) link

reading the 40s thread -- it kinda seems like most of the people who feel like they get "worse" in their 40s are cis-men, whereas non cis-men feel better in their 40s comparatively? Or have I been reading too much empowering clickbait for middle aged women?

sarahell, Saturday, 20 February 2021 16:27 (three years ago) link

Hiiiiii! I don't want to be insensitive to ppl in that thread but my 40s have been good and my friends and colleagues are mostly all well? Also it took me until my late 30s to have a job that did more than barely pay the bills, and it was extremely pleasant to not be overdrawn or need to know how many individual dollars were in my account at all times. I'm unemployed again so I guess who knows what will happen but it was nice to feel that a good life was within reach.

I'm happy with myself in my 40s.

Ima Gardener (in orbit), Saturday, 20 February 2021 16:33 (three years ago) link

I'm happy with myself in my 40s.


Me too!

There are things that have gotten worse but there are things that have gotten better.

Notes on Scampo (tokyo rosemary), Saturday, 20 February 2021 16:41 (three years ago) link

I have definitely had to deal with a lot of heavy shit in my 40s, but I feel like I am more resilient and happier and have a stronger sense of self-worth and confidence that I can better deal with the heavy shit? Like the lyric in "First We Take Manhattan" -- "I've practiced every night, and now I'm ready ..."?

sarahell, Saturday, 20 February 2021 16:45 (three years ago) link

I have aged out of the 40s thread, so, uh, in what way?

Health, money, confidence, social, what?

I would venture to ask - are the 40s the point in heterosexual cismens’ lives where they realise they are not actually going to be the patriarchs in patriarchy? (Cause it seems like middle age is when cis white men start looking for someone to blame for that.)

While for non-cis-men, the 40s are where the hyperscrutiny drops off and the invisibility kicks in, which almost feels like a relief?

OK this is getting too cynical, even for me. I’m having a bad reaction to the covid vaccine I had yesterday so I’m feeling pretty flattened and less willing to entertain more positive possibilities than usual?

mysterious nonbinary sea creature (Branwell with an N), Saturday, 20 February 2021 16:48 (three years ago) link

Lots of x-posts coz phone typing takes forever.

Sorry, maybe this isn’t a conversation for me today...

mysterious nonbinary sea creature (Branwell with an N), Saturday, 20 February 2021 16:49 (three years ago) link

Another thing that has intensified in my 40s although it was well on track before is that I wish for the company of men less and less. I am honestly happiest surrounded by and in community with women.

xp So...maybe?

Ima Gardener (in orbit), Saturday, 20 February 2021 16:50 (three years ago) link

I'm 50, and I can see pretty much only a shit future with small points of success in front of me.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Saturday, 20 February 2021 16:50 (three years ago) link

While for non-cis-men, the 40s are where the hyperscrutiny drops off and the invisibility kicks in, which almost feels like a relief?

I think this is definitely part of it -- or maybe, the hyperscrutiny bothers us less and we become more comfortable in our own bodies (or adapt our bodies to what will make us comfortable) and it's easier to block it out.

sarahell, Saturday, 20 February 2021 16:52 (three years ago) link

I think I'm having a "good day" (I have days that are very not good) ... or trying to psych myself up for taking on stressful stuff that I have been procrastinating work-wise.

sarahell, Saturday, 20 February 2021 16:58 (three years ago) link

xp For me, women were always alien creatures. (Until I realized that I wasn't really one.) Fortunately, I was always smart enough to not get into all of the "not like other girls" nonsense.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:01 (three years ago) link

For most of my 20s and 30s, I underperformed in relation to my peers, economically & professionally. I guess I accepted early that I wouldn't "make it" or be financially secure or meet any of the goals of adulthood that my parents had & that I always expected to. It probably lowered my standards to the point where I was just happy for things to stop being actively bad. Anyway, I'm still a fuck-up but I mind it a little less.

Also I don't feel any longer than I'm being a "bad" at my chosen gender performance by not having those things. I can just let it ride a lot more.

Happy for your good days, s! Go out there and slay the stressful stuff. I also have to send a bunch of emails that I've been avoiding.

Ima Gardener (in orbit), Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:02 (three years ago) link

OK I peeked in the thread to see what this was about. Cancer and death, oh my.

I don't know. So much good stuff happened in my 40s, even though the start of my 40s was possibly one of the worst periods of my life, hitting rock bottom showed the way out? Like:

-autism diagnosis which completely rearranged my life into a shape that made SO MUCH more sense, and explained so much of what hadn't been working before
-an employer that was willing to make concessions in my working environment that enabled me to keep a job for the longest period of my life (6 years and counting!) and created some stability in financial and living-space and material conditions
-a good therapist who was able to use the complete collapse of my sexual life, to persuade me to open the "box of gender and sexuality stuff" which I had been sitting on for 20 years, for fear the demons would get out. (They are not demons punishing you, they are freeing your soul!)

So compared to the emotional instability and financial precarity of my 20s and 30s, holy hell were my 40s great.

I had far, far fewer friends at the end of my 40s than the start, but the friendships I do have are much healthier, and have much stronger boundaries and are more mutually supportive. It's not that I have more confidence - it's more that I give far fewer fucks to give, I'm old, I no longer give a shit if someone thinks I'm ~crazy lady gestures~ for clearly stating what I need!

mysterious nonbinary sea creature (Branwell with an N), Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:09 (three years ago) link

Sometimes "having no fucks left to give" is way better than "confidence" anyway.

mysterious nonbinary sea creature (Branwell with an N), Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:10 (three years ago) link

This last discussion is an absolute disgrace and I don’t know why sarahell chose right now, after some of the content being discussed in the 40s thread, to start this line of discussion. I hope you know how it looks fucking crass and insensitive and horrible.

scampless, rattled and puce (gyac), Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:24 (three years ago) link

Wow.

Just... wow.

mysterious nonbinary sea creature (Branwell with an N), Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:26 (three years ago) link

Yes, consider me incredibly surprised that you don’t treat people the way you want to be treated on ilx either.

scampless, rattled and puce (gyac), Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:27 (three years ago) link

gyac: I am confident that all my posts and lines of discussion look crass, insensitive, and horrible to you. I wish you didn't feel that way about me. But y'know, you have a tendency to go off on anyone and everyone that doesn't measure up to your exacting standards of purity and justice, so I am sure I am in the company of like 99.9% of everyone.

sarahell, Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:32 (three years ago) link

Oh trust me on this, I’m very much not alone on this one & if this was any other thread you’d have people telling you so.

scampless, rattled and puce (gyac), Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:34 (three years ago) link

honestly by your logic, no one should be discussing anything else? Like how dare people talk about bands and football when one poster has had a really horrible recent couple of years??? You might think, this line of discussion might not be related to that one person's experience, but the posts of several other cis-men who also posted in that thread?

sarahell, Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:36 (three years ago) link

Keep digging.

scampless, rattled and puce (gyac), Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:37 (three years ago) link

I'm so sorry this is happening, Sarahell, I thought you brought up an interesting observation.

The levels of Himpathy involved, to get from "some non-cis-men have gone to another place, so as not to disturb clearly unhappy people by talking about not being unhappy any more" to "you are crass and horrible and have no empathy" is... frankly astonishing.

But given who it is, and their levels of projection, I'm not surprised.

mysterious nonbinary sea creature (Branwell with an N), Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:38 (three years ago) link

Non-boys who find you are happier now than when you were younger?

I salute your happiness, and support you in it.

mysterious nonbinary sea creature (Branwell with an N), Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:39 (three years ago) link

gyac: how do you think I should atone for what you clearly believe was a horrible thing to do? How can I make amends? I honestly did not intend to come across as insensitive to someone's serious suffering.

sarahell, Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:41 (three years ago) link

Himpathy, right. I’ll remember this exact comment the next time you’re demanding that nobody say a fucking word to you about your years of appalling behaviour. What a thing to say. But given who it is... likewise.

scampless, rattled and puce (gyac), Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:41 (three years ago) link

I kinda want to get into how appallingly sexist/misogynistic ilx was in prior years (mostly in terms of posters who engaged in this behavior being tolerated and encouraged) and how Branwell (definitely), and I (to a certain degree) had to deal with that, and you, gyac, are fortunate that there is way less of that for you to have to engage with.

sarahell, Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:48 (three years ago) link

But honestly, it's not worth going there. That's divisiveness. If this were FB I would delete or edit that post tbh.

sarahell, Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:51 (three years ago) link

Weird, I definitely recall arguing with men on here about appalling behaviour, which was why this thread felt like such a refuge from that shit. That it became somewhere for certain people to post bullshit unchallenged is tragic, but definitely not as tragic as your disingenuous attitude.

scampless, rattled and puce (gyac), Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:52 (three years ago) link

I'm sorry you don't believe me, but I am being honest. I've gotten a lot of shit over my 40+ years of life because I am honest and have had to learn when to keep my mouth shut and opinions to myself. Why you perceive a "disingenuous attitude" on my part, I really have no idea.

sarahell, Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:56 (three years ago) link

If there's no other option for me here than to just sit and be a repository for your anger and to hear you out while you tell me all the ways I suck and all the things I have posted that are bad and have hurt people -- then fine. Keep going.

sarahell, Saturday, 20 February 2021 18:02 (three years ago) link

Read your first post itt in this particular line of conversation, read the conversation in the forties thread, see how it comes across. That’s all I’m going to say to you. Not going to waste my breath explaining further.

scampless, rattled and puce (gyac), Saturday, 20 February 2021 18:04 (three years ago) link

It’s such a trip, like being back in Convent School, with Mother Superior coming in and demanding I apologise for how terribly I behaved to those poor boys who were bullying me, like, don’t you know one of those boys hurt his foot kicking your head in, you apologise right now, you sinner!

Like sure, OK, Mother Superior! I’m sorry my knuckles were in the way of your ruler, too!

🤣🤣🤣

mysterious nonbinary sea creature (Branwell with an N), Saturday, 20 February 2021 18:08 (three years ago) link

I sincerely apologize to you and anyone else that felt that my post in this thread was in response to CP's post in the 40s thread, rather than the posts that followed from about a half dozen cis-men whose posts did not indicate the awful circumstances of CP's post. The other posts were what inspired my line of discussion here, because when there are FB threads about one's 40s that are mostly women/non-cis-men -- you end up with a long thread of "actually I felt way better about my self in my 40s than in my 30s" -- and a lot of "50 is the new 40!"

sarahell, Saturday, 20 February 2021 18:14 (three years ago) link

Yes, I share that general perception that I hear more from men that they feel they're in decline, and I hear from women that they're experiencing relief from a lot of burdens as they age. I'm sorry that posters were hurt by talking about it here and now.

Ima Gardener (in orbit), Saturday, 20 February 2021 18:19 (three years ago) link

I apologize for any offense I've given, too.

38 was when I realized I wasn't young anymore, and 47 was when I realized that my bad planning and tendency to throw away every opportunity I've ever had was catching up to me.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Saturday, 20 February 2021 18:22 (three years ago) link

I don’t apologise - Mother Superior is genuinely detached from reality when it comes to misinterpreting the motives and intentions and behaviour of Sarahell and myself, for the worst possible outcome.

None of you did anything even remotely wrong and it actually bothers me that you feel you should have to apologise for liking your lives too loudly.

mysterious nonbinary sea creature (Branwell with an N), Saturday, 20 February 2021 18:29 (three years ago) link

I saw your post, sarahell, and then the 40s thread, and I've got to say I was pretty shocked because it definitely looked to me like you were following on from CP's posts, and that was... really fucking shit. It did feel crass and dismissive of real problems, and it did upset me. Obviously I believe you when you say that you didn't intend it that way, but I'm not surprised that other people were also shocked by the conjunction of topics. I mean, I don't know that this post is helpful and I'm not asking for you to self-flagellate about it, but I just wanted to note that it wasn't only one person who felt that way.

emil.y, Saturday, 20 February 2021 18:31 (three years ago) link

Sarahell I believe you when you say it wasn’t your intention.

But I can’t look at this thread and what it has become without being really uncomfortable about the line of conversation here, like it’s ok to mock certain posters because they’re cis men, with the implication that their pain matters less. Again, it’s cowardly to use this thread and the post above is probably supposed to be cutting but it really just comes across as so much projection. Am I a bad person because of the things I say? Perhaps. But frankly I’m not going to feel bad about saying that the cruelty that has been on show itt for far far too long - and it’s not a great feeling being the only person speaking up against it because people don’t want to deal with fallout - is inappropriate and absolutely out of line and I shouldn’t be expected to tolerate that. Nor should anyone else. Oh btw sarah I don’t mean you when I say this, it’s Branwell, though enabling their behaviour isn’t doing anything good.

End post before I go full Fizzles.

scampless, rattled and puce (gyac), Saturday, 20 February 2021 18:34 (three years ago) link

I don’t apologise - Mother Superior is genuinely detached from reality when it comes to misinterpreting the motives and intentions and behaviour of Sarahell and myself, for the worst possible outcome.

None of you did anything even remotely wrong and it actually bothers me that you feel you should have to apologise for liking your lives too loudly.


Bit of anti-Catholicism to top off this round of covering yourself in glory? Lovely stuff altogether. How would you react to someone telling you you are detached from reality, I wonder? Strictly rhetorical question, I promise.

scampless, rattled and puce (gyac), Saturday, 20 February 2021 18:40 (three years ago) link

, I don't know that this post is helpful and I'm not asking for you to self-flagellate about it, but I just wanted to note that it wasn't only one person who felt that way.

― emil.y, Saturday, February 20, 2021 10:31 AM (five minutes ago)

I didn't assume that gyac was making up other posters also being upset; I had no reason not to believe that part. I really do apologize. There is so much horrible awful shit that people have dealt with and are dealing with, and I don't want to add to that. And I know that I have a tendency to do the "it only hurts when I laugh" type of coping with suffering and the pointlessness and misery inherent in living in this world. And I know that not everyone copes that way, and that to some, it comes across as insensitive and I am truly sorry.

sarahell, Saturday, 20 February 2021 18:45 (three years ago) link

And for the record, if gyac wants to not be reminded of my existence, I will refrain from posting positive comments about the very attractive cat photographs she posts. I also sincerely appreciate yr cat.

sarahell, Saturday, 20 February 2021 18:46 (three years ago) link

I have two cats, you can enjoy them the same as anyone else :)

scampless, rattled and puce (gyac), Saturday, 20 February 2021 18:47 (three years ago) link

and I hope this doesn't sound disingenuous, but I really do respect the way that you assert yourself and stand up for what you think is right and aren't afraid of people getting angry.

sarahell, Saturday, 20 February 2021 18:49 (three years ago) link

Me? Well I’m not sure it’s one of my better qualities but it makes me me and at this stage I’m too old to change entirely.

scampless, rattled and puce (gyac), Saturday, 20 February 2021 18:50 (three years ago) link

i respect that too. i am extremely resistant to getting involved in these conversations but the posts did not give me a good feeling, to put it mildly. she and emil.y are not alone here and it shouldn't be assumed that they are just because they're the only ones saying so.

superdeep borehole (harbl), Saturday, 20 February 2021 18:51 (three years ago) link

Me? Well I’m not sure it’s one of my better qualities but it makes me me and at this stage I’m too old to change entirely.

Yes, you! ... and I think it's that "at this stage I'm too old to change entirely" feeling that is what a lot of one's 40s are focused on and some people are like, "you know what, fuck it, that's me, I can try to be my best self, but I'm not going to become a different person." and others are like, "fuck ..... just fuck ..."

sarahell, Saturday, 20 February 2021 18:53 (three years ago) link

she and emil.y are not alone here and it shouldn't be assumed that they are just because they're the only ones saying so.

thanks for that, harbl. I would rather work things through with people who are bothered by my behavior and who I also really respect and like.

sarahell, Saturday, 20 February 2021 18:54 (three years ago) link

Also--and I hate to bring class issues into this--most of the 40+ women I know are either still pretending they're teenagers or they're dealing with their grown children's problems and/or raising their grandchildren.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Saturday, 20 February 2021 19:17 (three years ago) link

(Know in RL, I mean.)

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Saturday, 20 February 2021 19:18 (three years ago) link

most of the 40+ women I know are either still pretending they're teenagers or they're dealing with their grown children's problems and/or raising their grandchildren.

honestly, I know a fair amount of these too --

sarahell, Saturday, 20 February 2021 19:29 (three years ago) link

You're right, Christine, and I've been wanting to validate your sharing here without assuming anything about you. I wanted to say...the economic precariousness and/or straight poverty that a lot of Americans live in crosses a lot of other intersectional lines.

Ima Gardener (in orbit), Saturday, 20 February 2021 19:30 (three years ago) link

Kate Manne has written extensively on what misogyny is for: a system of sorting Men (people) from Not-Men (women).

Misogyny doesn’t work by “hating all women” - what it does, subtly but powerfully, is sort “women” into “Good Women” who comply with the (conflicting and impossible) needs of patriarchy, and “Bad Women” who don’t - and punishes the latter, the most harshly.

Under a misogynist system, a woman can only gain power by positioning themselves as “Good Women” and weaponising “Bad Women’s” badness against them. By harshly punishing the “Bad Women”, she gets both power over other women, and the respect of men.

It’s win-win for the “Good Woman” and the system of patriarchy. Once you realise that, you understand why some women do this! But ultimately misogyny hurts all women, non-men, and “Men” as well - and you have to work to dismantle the entire dichotomy to destroy the system.

mysterious nonbinary sea creature (Branwell with an N), Saturday, 20 February 2021 20:25 (three years ago) link

Imagine having to believe this instead of thinking about your own behaviour.

scampless, rattled and puce (gyac), Saturday, 20 February 2021 21:01 (three years ago) link

I disabled killfile for a while, and clearly that was a mistake. I've The "No Boys" thread has always functioned (as well as a kind of social club) as a space where we could talk freely, without worrying about offending the everpresent ~feelings of men~. That was how I, and I think a lot of the people who responded to Sarahell, were using it. A collective sigh of "it does get better". To then have someone come screaming in, that the conversation is inadequately taking into account feelings of men and the feelings about men? It's a derailment.

To bring this back to the topic of conversation at hand, for me there are (at least) two streams both running in parallel and interbraiding, in many ways.

I believe the thing behind a lot of introspection at the moment is the constant overhanging threat of the pandemic. The pandemic has been this omnipresent tsunami of death and grief and fear, which has flattened everything in its path, but has dealt out burdens in different ways and different magnitudes. That I've noticed, even in my friend group, that the structure of our societies and the ways lockdowns have been constructed, mean that the burden of the pandemic has overwhelmingly been shifted onto mothers, gestational parents, and caretakers / carers. Who are overwhelmingly not-men. (While very different but no less real troubles have been shifted onto those who live alone, disabled people, LBGT/Queer people who don't necessarily have conventional family units that are protected by lockdown regulations. For me, it's not just the people who have died, it's my entire in-person, away-from-screen support network that I spent the previous few years building.) Everyone is coping with their tsunami of grief, including me, in different ways.

The other is this large-scale, cultural shifting of the narratives around "Women" (non-men) as we age. That 40 is not the traditional ending of one's life, it may be a rebirth and a beginning. I, personally, have a very long, multi-generational line of women and female role models in my family who went on to long, fruitful and rewarding "second acts" after their children were raised and their husbands either dropped dead of sudden ailments and/or dramatically left the family. 4 generations of women that I met, telling me that their lives *began* in their 40s and 50s. (Funnily enough, including an Edwardian relative who, after her husband died, cut her hair, started dressing like a man, took over the farm and asked her neighbours to call her "Tommy". I've always wondered about that!) That was my expectation for how my life would unfold, and I was finding it true, pre-pandemic. But I also think that many women are questioning the narratives around ageing in women automatically meaning a shrinking and narrowing.

I don't think that's *just* a middle-class narrative, it's just that the stories of, e.g. older women fighting for their pensions, class narratives about the feminisation of poverty hitting older women and child-rearing-aged women particularly hard, those stories are just not seen as glamourous or even political. All of the political and economic forces that are driving the feminisation of poverty, are coming from conservative male-supremacy-white-supremacy, about driving women back into family structures that best support capitalism, rather than being good for women. Discussions of ~patriarchy~ are not a distraction from 'class issues' - patriarchy *is* class issues.

Anyway. For me, personally, the narratives of "your life will get better in your 40s/50s" and "a global pandemic has changed everyone's lives to be unrecognisable in oppressive ways" are a huge collision.

Getting vaccinated on Friday was the first glimmer in a full year, where I felt like there might be an "After Times", rather than the smashed-up debris where the "Before Times" used to be.

I'm interested if other folks have started thinking about their After Times, how you think they will change, or if that's just not a thing yet in your countries?

mysterious nonbinary sea creature (Branwell with an N), Sunday, 21 February 2021 10:34 (three years ago) link

In case my questions weren't overt enough in the wall-o-text:

What expectations were you raised with, within your families (mothers, aunts, grandmothers) as to how women should age? Did your female elders have "second acts"? Are your experiences similar to / different from them, and how?

Also, the thing that kept coming up while I was showing, is... What does "acting like a teenager*" look like, for a generation where the traditional markers of adulthood have been rendered inaccessible by economics?

*(I generally know what "acting like a teenager" means, in terms of, the person who does this in my family is my Boomer father, who has decided to spend his 70s doing all the funstuff he was too busy studying/working to participate in when he was young. I'm guessing you mean something else?) Please explain?

mysterious nonbinary sea creature (Branwell with an N), Sunday, 21 February 2021 11:08 (three years ago) link

It’s a shame they’ve killfiled me again* because this

where we could talk freely, without worrying about offending the everpresent ~feelings of men~.


Thought I was done, but alas. No, not having this. Your attempts to cast my response as unreasonable by saying I’m screaming - wow, an uppity woman screaming, where have I heard that one before? - while deliberately erasing the fact which was so objectionable: these are real, not-abstract people who you were mocking when you were mocking my anger at the discussion yesterday. They are real people suffering real pain and you couldn’t stand having your bad behaviour pointed out to you because this thread, which you try to paint as a space where you can talk freely, has actually become - for quite some time now - The Branwell Show, where you’ve squeezed the life out of it by complaining about ilx beefs (ancient and current) while knowing the people you’re talking about can’t respond to you directly. You’re a bully, and like most of them, a coward.

I’m not saying this for your benefit, by the way, because you cling to your bad behaviour as relentlessly as your use of tildes, but for anyone else who is throughly sick of you, and of how your behaviour passes unchallenged. I’m not ok with it, and none of us should be. Frankly, if you feel less comfortable in posting here and using this thread in the way I’ve just said, that’s a net benefit.

*PS it’s news to me that you had me killfiled ever since not only were you responding to posts of mine not directed at you - since you are blocked on Zing and I have not read you in quite some time - but were tweeting about me as well. Add that to my list of observations about you above.

scampless, rattled and puce (gyac), Sunday, 21 February 2021 11:13 (three years ago) link

I'm sure that the despair of a middle aged cis man whose wife recently died of cancer is really about how he never became a patriarch in the patriarchy.

Zelda Zonk, Sunday, 21 February 2021 12:12 (three years ago) link

Exactly, it’s deliberately disingenuous because the men of ilx aren’t the abstract patriarchy, they are real people with real pain and the only way BB can look at those posts they made yesterday (in reply to me) is by removing all context from the matter.

scampless, rattled and puce (gyac), Sunday, 21 February 2021 12:15 (three years ago) link

Zelda, I made it clear before posting that, that I had not read the thread - and even before my second set of posts, that I had read only a bit of it, which was... not that.

The idea that we should have to check the feelings of everyone in the room, including people who aren’t even in the room (and in fact are not even who the room is designed for) before having conversations about our own lives? That’s structural misogyny.

(That’s not even getting into the ableism of presuming that everyone is *capable* of pre-emptively doing that checking or understanding when and how it’s supposed to work. That goes double when that kind of sympathy-checking is seldom exercised on your behalf. Do I need to remind you how ILX reacted when I found out my mother has cancer? It is ableist to hold autistic people to these highly gendered neurological standards around the management of other people’s emotions.)

mysterious nonbinary sea creature (Branwell with an N), Sunday, 21 February 2021 12:30 (three years ago) link

And yes, I do think the disparity between “how cis men are raised to believe their middle / old age is gonna look like” and how “people raised as women are taught to believe their middle / old age will look like” DOES contribute to the stuff that Sarahell was talking about.

And that I *would* like to talk about.

mysterious nonbinary sea creature (Branwell with an N), Sunday, 21 February 2021 12:35 (three years ago) link

It is ableist to hold autistic people to these highly gendered neurological standards around the management of other people’s emotions.


Just marking this down for the next time someone in another thread says something that you take to be about you and you come in here to complain about literally decades-old ilx beef again. And yet again, dishonest all the way down, wow wow wow.

scampless, rattled and puce (gyac), Sunday, 21 February 2021 12:35 (three years ago) link

To be clear, I’m sorry someone’s wife died of cancer. That’s awful.

As far as I know, he’s never read or posted in this thread. I don’t see how these discussions connect. Sarahell moves the conversation to a different topic!

mysterious nonbinary sea creature (Branwell with an N), Sunday, 21 February 2021 12:37 (three years ago) link

About as ungracious as you’d expect. Incredible how everyone else was able to see how it came across and acted accordingly, whereas you doubled down, mocked me (in some fairly misogynistic terms, no less) for even bringing it up, and now finally have squeezed about the most terrible excuse for an apology that you can bear now that it’s become clear that you’re alone on this. It’s such an indictment of ilx that you haven’t hit twenty yet.

scampless, rattled and puce (gyac), Sunday, 21 February 2021 12:41 (three years ago) link

Having known and interacted with Sarahell for a long time, her action of “there’s a grieving widower in here, I’m going to take this conversation about gender to another thread” absolutely 100% WAS an act of consideration and being sympathetic.

It’s *bizarre* to me that anyone could read that act of consideration as inconsiderate or hostile.

It seems to me, to be about the complainers’ hostile views towards the poster(s), rather than anything she said it did.

We need to talk, again and again, about he gendered expectations of emotional labour. How this emotional labour of “anticipating and managing the emotional needs and reactions of other people, and always putting them before their own” is something disproportionately placed on people raised/treated as women.

Maybe because of my autism, maybe because of my unconventional upbringing, I honestly did not realise that this was something expected of me/women until I was in my late 30s. It’s one of those aspects of ~performing womanhood~ that I absolutely suck at because: autism - and I really chafe at the idea it is only *expected* of “Women” (cis men who can do it, will be rewarded for it, as the *skill* of emotional intelligence.) It’s OK for cis men to put their needs and emotions first. But if “women” don’t do it - RAGE!

It wasn’t until I was in my 40s, and in therapy, that I connected the ragestorms and clusterfucks of people being intensely angry at me for reasons I could not figure out - with this “transgression”. I had failed to anticipate someone else’s needs or manage their unexpected emotions; I had put my own needs first.

The weirdest thing was, that the biggest explosions of anger at my failure to perform this expected emotional labour were NOT actually from the men who tried to throttle me, or pulled over CD shelves on top of me, or threatened me and tried to physically hurt or discipline me.

It’s similar to the way that the biggest explosions of rage and hatred about female fat don’t come from angry men - they come from thin women who are FURIOUS that they have spent their entire lives hungry, on diets, and how dare we SHIRK our female obligation to be attractive by being so unapologetically fat while they work so hard at it.

It’s the same with these explosions of RAGE that I cannot (or as they have it, WILL not) perform this gendered emotional labour. The RAGE is about their fury and frustration and anger that *they* feel about having to do it, when here am I in my unapologetic autistic transmasculinity saying “this gendered labour is unfairly distributed. No one should have to regulate other people’s emotions as much as women are expected to do.”

This anger isn’t about me refusing / being unable to (delete as to your level of ableism) - it’s about their own resentment at still forcing themselves to. Hence why it’s Sarahell or me that end up as the punching bags for this rage. Other people’s rage is... not my job to manage.

mysterious nonbinary sea creature (Branwell with an N), Sunday, 21 February 2021 14:07 (three years ago) link

Absolutely fuck this. Fuck this blasé attitude about real people who we really care about. FUCK YOU. Your refusal to care about other people has NOTHING to do with rejecting patriarchal standards and everything to do with the fact that you don't care about other people and can't be bothered to.

That's my fucking FRIEND. Fuck off with your idea that people getting upset are in service to the patriarchy. Funnily enough, I consider sarahell my friend also, and I STILL got upset. It isn't about ilx beef, it's about CARING ABOUT PEOPLE. If other people's rage is not your job to manage, then don't even think about attempting to manage HOW MUCH RAGE I AM EXPERIENCING RIGHT NOW. FUCK OFF.

emil.y, Sunday, 21 February 2021 14:16 (three years ago) link

I’d settle for them managing their own shoddy behaviour, but all they ever have in the tank is “no u” and “actually here’s why my terrible behaviour is your fault. It’s unacceptable.

scampless, rattled and puce (gyac), Sunday, 21 February 2021 14:20 (three years ago) link

I'm angry, too. I've always been angry at how everyone excuses Branwell's behavior, but I always just held my tongue and left any thread that they were in. Now I can speak my piece.

I'm neuroatypical (probably autistic, but I've never been diagnosed. I was diagnosed as mentally ill.), non-binary, and was bullied pretty heavily when younger. We are painfully similar people. I was clueless when I was younger, and I probably hurt some people. The difference? I was willing to admit that I was wrong sometimes. My self-centeredness and selfishness has been a burden that I fight against every hour of my life. I don't seek out social issues to validate my self-image, I seek them out to try to change things. Also, "acting like a teenager," in rural Floridian underclass terms, means that you drink and heavily and get arrested all of the time. I'm crying in RL right now and getting incoherent, so I'll say
one more thing. Go away. Please go away. Stop seagulling us, by which I mean swooping down periodically, shitting on everything, and leaving. You are as bad as Dom ever was.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Sunday, 21 February 2021 16:29 (three years ago) link

I apologise when I have done something wrong. The idea that I should have to apologise for the absurd fantasies that people build up around their intensely negative interpretations of what I say?

Nah, mate. Not on.

mysterious nonbinary sea creature (Branwell with an N), Sunday, 21 February 2021 17:00 (three years ago) link

Can we go back to the conversation we were having?

Because it’s not me that shits up threads at the moment - it’s people’s bizarre inability to ignore me or mute me rather than carry on feuding like this.

mysterious nonbinary sea creature (Branwell with an N), Sunday, 21 February 2021 17:02 (three years ago) link

Dom used to go around saying things like “sometimes I fantasise about punching women in the face”.

I say things like “cisheteropatriarvhy oppresses ‘men’ and ‘not men’ in different and unequal ways’.

These are 100% exactly the same thing!!!!! Are you kidding me?

mysterious nonbinary sea creature (Branwell with an N), Sunday, 21 February 2021 17:27 (three years ago) link

are you now Whitney G Weingarten?

sarahell, Monday, 22 February 2021 03:05 (three years ago) link

omgggggggg!!! lol

sarahell, Monday, 22 February 2021 03:50 (three years ago) link

two months pass...

So I sometimes get a one or two big hormonal zits around my period but I just got my period midway between my two vax shots and JESUS CHRIST my chin/jaw are an absolute mess, like, just the worst acne I’ve ever had. Anyone else having hormonal issues after their vax?

just1n3, Thursday, 6 May 2021 02:39 (two years ago) link

now that you mention it, i did break out after my first vaccine and i usually don't

here 1st (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 12 May 2021 17:42 (two years ago) link

Interesting you say so, because I’ve had the same. I also missed a period but that could have been stress related.. but that’s usually a delay, not a complete skip.

Scamp Granada (gyac), Wednesday, 12 May 2021 17:50 (two years ago) link

i had an unusual forehead breakout after my first dose that i thought was due to increased peanut butter consumption since i discovered you can add powdered peanut butter to anything. also really weird small, painful zits on the end of my nose. i thought it was getting better, and it mostly has, but i got a few new pimples on my forehead during period, plus a huge cyst near my upper lip, though i usually get hormonal cysts. i'm not ready to say it was caused by the vaccine but it's possible. either peanuts or vaccine could have increased inflammation in my body. good news is i can try eating peanuts again?

superdeep borehole (harbl), Friday, 14 May 2021 00:30 (two years ago) link

Which vax did you all get? Mine was moderna

just1n3, Friday, 14 May 2021 08:19 (two years ago) link

moderna

superdeep borehole (harbl), Friday, 14 May 2021 12:29 (two years ago) link

Pfizer. Didn't have any discernable breakouts and my periods were already deranged.

Infanta Terrible (j.lu), Friday, 14 May 2021 13:58 (two years ago) link

Sorry yall, I got the Pfizer and I experienced no side effects, I haven't had a period in ages and I didn't have one then, and my skin is excellent right now especially considering my personal habits which are not the healthiest. But I did pick up a new cleanser and moisturizer from TJ Maxx's sale section so I credit cosmetic science.

Ima Gardener (in orbit), Friday, 14 May 2021 14:21 (two years ago) link

I got moderna and my period was same as always, maybe the mood symptoms were a little worse? Hard to say why but I doubt it was related to vaccine tbh. Prob just good old me.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 14 May 2021 14:33 (two years ago) link

i also got moderna

here 1st (roxymuzak), Monday, 17 May 2021 16:08 (two years ago) link

two months pass...

fucking period fairy brings me my menses 2 weeks ahead of schedule today wee
it’s the turd in the punchbowl that has been this week

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 24 July 2021 04:38 (two years ago) link

but explains the terrifying/crazy mood swing i had on monday, like fully at my desk crying at 10am for no reason, SOBBING watching bobs burgers at lunchtime, knowing there was no reason just thinking “ok THIS now!?!”

i have had a couple really bad ones usually a week or so post-period too

old lady hormones are just gonna be semi regularly one on now i guess yay

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 24 July 2021 04:43 (two years ago) link

I had the first full period I've had in 3 or 4 months last month. And it was a heavy but painless one, like I always had. I'm 50. This should be over by now.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Saturday, 24 July 2021 04:45 (two years ago) link

i apologize for the fact that the period fairy was trash

also apologize for acknowledging "it's the turd in the punchbowl" can be sung to the tune of "It's the eye of the tiger"

sarahell, Saturday, 24 July 2021 04:45 (two years ago) link

lmao that just cheered me up infinitely

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 24 July 2021 05:27 (two years ago) link

one month passes...

I AM TOO GODDAMN OLD TO BE FEELING LIKE AN INSECURE ADOLESCENT.

Infanta Terrible (j.lu), Saturday, 4 September 2021 02:31 (two years ago) link

It looks like I'm going to be treated as an adorable lost child for the rest of my life. I feel like one always.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Saturday, 4 September 2021 03:25 (two years ago) link

nine months pass...

So there are, what, half a dozen of us left on ILX?

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Tuesday, 28 June 2022 04:45 (one year ago) link

i think so, yeah

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 28 June 2022 05:01 (one year ago) link

o we doing a non-boy roll call? i now formally announce that i am not a boy

bule bulak oying (cat), Tuesday, 28 June 2022 05:17 (one year ago) link

it is actually a scientific fact that cats are not boys and dogs are not girls 🌠 ~the more u kno~

bule bulak oying (cat), Tuesday, 28 June 2022 05:21 (one year ago) link

So there are, what, half a dozen of us left on ILX?


Interesting isn’t it

commonly known by his nickname, "MadBum" (gyac), Tuesday, 28 June 2022 07:36 (one year ago) link

xp - uh, no offense, but we know you're not actually a cat. If you're a non-cis male human IRL, then welcome here.

sarahell, Tuesday, 28 June 2022 08:43 (one year ago) link

Plenty of dogs are girls, to say otherwise is nonsense!
I guess I’m still here.

Piggy Lepton (La Lechera), Tuesday, 28 June 2022 13:06 (one year ago) link

"I am not a cat."
(I'm bigender, male and female. So I guess I still belong here.)

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Tuesday, 28 June 2022 13:38 (one year ago) link

every so often I seriously re-consider my life choices ... it used to be in a "what a waste of time" way, but now it's more like, "if I had done x, then it would be easier today to do y, but if I wanted to do y now, could I?"

sarahell, Tuesday, 28 June 2022 15:57 (one year ago) link

So there are, what, half a dozen of us left on ILX?

― mom tossed in kimchee (quincie)

2020 was fucking _rough_

Kate (rushomancy), Tuesday, 28 June 2022 16:37 (one year ago) link

I'm still here. But yeah.

Infanta Terrible (j.lu), Tuesday, 28 June 2022 17:29 (one year ago) link

I'm here too, but mostly lurk anyways.

Look closely, that is all. (doo dah), Tuesday, 28 June 2022 17:32 (one year ago) link

i was horribly forming a "joek" abt how felis catus & canis familiaris ≠ homo sapiens and this joek has landed, not on all fours, but on its big dumb face

but ye, +1 cisgirl

if i'd had the vocab during my teen years i might have gone with non-binary bcuz of not identifying with any of the standard """woman""" archetypes, but now it's whatever

there was a time there when i'd shaved half my head and kept my hair long on the other side and the panic/confusion/dismay on the faces of occasional squares who couldn't immediately categorize me was v. gratifying

here's hoping the girlxors of yesteryear have found more fulfilling timewasters

bule bulak oying (cat), Tuesday, 28 June 2022 22:51 (one year ago) link

Sometimes I read a thread here and there. But they are always disappointing. I just don't have the patience to sift through inane one-liners about serious topics or to read some thought dump that isn't actually engaging with anyone else. It's super aggravating.

Yerac, Wednesday, 29 June 2022 20:54 (one year ago) link

feelin so called out right now, lol

bule bulak oying (cat), Wednesday, 29 June 2022 21:02 (one year ago) link

This was totally about the rest of the board, I honestly just skimmed your posts and thought you were making a random gme-related joke not really seeing your name in ().

Yerac, Wednesday, 29 June 2022 21:10 (one year ago) link

Sometimes I read a thread here and there. But they are always disappointing. I just don't have the patience to sift through inane one-liners about serious topics or to read some thought dump that isn't actually engaging with anyone else. It's super aggravating.

― Yerac

i try but some of the cis guys here can be... challenging to engage with

go to the gay thread and see a bunch of guys talking about how much they love balls

i mean don't get me wrong i'm happy for them i just can't really relate?

Kate (rushomancy), Wednesday, 29 June 2022 21:33 (one year ago) link

xp I don’t remember writing this post

Osama bin Chinese (gyac), Wednesday, 29 June 2022 21:36 (one year ago) link

(This is also not a dig at poster cat)

Osama bin Chinese (gyac), Wednesday, 29 June 2022 21:56 (one year ago) link

I just don't have the patience to sift through inane one-liners about serious topics or to read some thought dump that isn't actually engaging with anyone else. It's super aggravating.

preach

flamenco drop (BradNelson), Thursday, 30 June 2022 06:47 (one year ago) link

But that's all that I post.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Thursday, 30 June 2022 12:46 (one year ago) link

I'm here but also only a lurker on a handful of threads

colette, Thursday, 30 June 2022 13:07 (one year ago) link

I took a brief look at the Roe thread, did not see any people-who-can-become-pregnant posting on it, and was like uh nevermind i am tired of bloviating dudes

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Thursday, 30 June 2022 16:34 (one year ago) link

woke feminist dudes of ilx posting everything EXCEPT any interest in where the sixish women of ilx are in all of this

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Thursday, 30 June 2022 16:38 (one year ago) link

so fucking otm

still lurking here but mostly for updates on things I’m interested in, rather than the conversations

Roz, Thursday, 30 June 2022 17:49 (one year ago) link

cis men are authorities on everything, they can speak on everything, speak for everyone. it's their _responsibility_, their _burden_ if you will.

i wanted to write something about it my perspective when one of my friends got beat down by terfs on twitter for talking about how the ruling is also being weaponized against trans people, to talk about understanding how medical gatekeeping works, that abortion was already de facto illegal a lot of places. i don't think that talking about these aspects of it erases or invalidates the ways people who can become pregnant are hurt by it. kind of ties in with an essay i'm sort of maybe writing involving the question of whether anne frank was a lesbian.

but really i just need to run these reports and find a new place to live. this... i'm tired of performative outrage by, you know, particularly by cis men that isn't backed up by anything. they draw a line in the sand it gets erased and they draw a new one a little farther back and they can do that, they have _plenty of room_. we're the ones drowning 50 feet behind them. if i don't want to drown, _they're_ the ones i have to fight, not the people they say they're _protecting_ me from.

when i was at pride i got a pin from the satanist booth that said "bodily autonomy is the right of every human". it was printed over the trans flag but trans people aren't the only people whose bodily autonomy is under attack.

Kate (rushomancy), Thursday, 30 June 2022 18:23 (one year ago) link

whoooo yes to that last point -- the idea that some people believed that i had no worth apart from my reproductive system has haunted me since i was 15 or so.

AFAICT there is a lot of latent just-below-surface hostility on top of the aggravating posting styles mentioned by quincie and yerac so far. i am fully aware that these are challenging times to be alive; i don't think it's ok to externalize despair and anger on a message board. that is my personal belief and i understand not everyone agrees.

wait a second where is VG?!!

Piggy Lepton (La Lechera), Thursday, 30 June 2022 18:34 (one year ago) link

woke feminist dudes of ilx posting everything EXCEPT any interest in where the sixish women of ilx are in all of this


I nearly posted this yesterday but I posted about this when the decision leaked and yeah, see the response for yourself.

Osama bin Chinese (gyac), Thursday, 30 June 2022 18:36 (one year ago) link

And I probably shouldn’t talk about this, but I won’t forget how I had people queuing up to call me a liar at the behest of someone making a claim about something I never fucking said. I am interested in how acceptable it was to call me a liar and how automatically people believed me.

Osama bin Chinese (gyac), Thursday, 30 June 2022 18:39 (one year ago) link

oh yeah i do remember your post because i was looking for discussion about it too and the derail into an abstract discussion turned me right around.

it was really frustrating and even worse to see looking back. your initial post was really thoughtful gyac <3

Piggy Lepton (La Lechera), Thursday, 30 June 2022 18:41 (one year ago) link

AFAICT there is a lot of latent just-below-surface hostility on top of the aggravating posting styles mentioned by quincie and yerac so far. i am fully aware that these are challenging times to be alive; i don't think it's ok to externalize despair and anger on a message board. that is my personal belief and i understand not everyone agrees.

― Piggy Lepton (La Lechera)

honestly it's something i struggle with a lot, coming from a place where i was a heavily discourse/irony poisoned troll and shitposter. i also think it's... embedded in a lot of the history in this board. people here used to be pretty overtly cruel and nasty to each other, in the same way that i used to be overtly cruel and nasty to other people, the same way that i acted to perpetuate the cycle of abuse.

at the same time this is a fucking loss, a serious fucking loss. people in the community i admin are perpetually on the edge of despair. i set up a channel for discussion current events and i don't look at it myself, i have the other mods do it because doing that leads me to spiral. (same reason i haven't looked at the roe thread, at any of the direct politics threads).

i don't engage with politics as _discourse_, i engage with politics as _trauma_. this is a serious fucking traumatic event to, first and foremost, anybody at risk of pregnancy, but beyond that to _anybody not normatively gendered_, which is to say, anybody who is not a cisgender male. on some level i feel... i feel very not alone, _very_ not alone, that this is an attack on every woman and every trans person. they believe they own us. they believe we are chattel. they believe they have the _right_ to _control our bodies_.

so, yeah, grief, despair, and not anger but... well, for me it's what susan stryker described as "transgender rage". it is scary but it is... i mean it's not an act of fragility and resentment, it's something _else_.

i had a really good friend and he was really into radical politics, collected old weather underground pamphlets and ranted like, i don't know, all those comedians in the '90s used to, like bill hicks or somebody used to, and i transitioned and he didn't _get_ it, it was very important that he _get_ it, and he needed me to _explain_ it to him, and this was early enough on that i did, and he still didn't _get_ it but he provisionally accepted my explanation.

but then later, there was me and there was another queer woman in the channel, in 2020, and he got really _upset_ at _us_ because he didn't like the way we were talking. and he demanded that we stop doing that. it was, like, our fault. our fault that we were _angry_. before transition, anger was the only emotion i was allowed, and now, since transition, it's really clear to me that anger is an emotion that i am _now_ allowed.

and honestly, you know, i wouldn't do it this way these days, but i made a real effort to accommodate him. and he left anyway, and i'm so fucking grateful. i'm so fucking grateful that i don't have to talk to that miserable fucking piece of shit anymore. i'm really sorry for his daughter and his wife, but i'm glad that none of us at least have to deal with his shit anymore.

anyway. i think there... historically have been some people in ilx that reminded me a lot of this old friend of mine.

i apologize if i'm bringing too much of my own shit in here.

Kate (rushomancy), Thursday, 30 June 2022 18:52 (one year ago) link

sorry i wasn't clear, grief _not_ despair, grief as an alternative to despair.

Kate (rushomancy), Thursday, 30 June 2022 18:53 (one year ago) link

"but then later, there was me and there was another queer woman in the channel, in 2020, and he got really _upset_ at _us_ because he didn't like the way we were talking. and he demanded that we stop doing that. it was, like, our fault. our fault that we were _angry_. before transition, anger was the only emotion i was allowed, and now, since transition, it's really clear to me that anger is an emotion that i am _now_ allowed."

fuck. sorry, i make these typos and it makes the meaning the opposite of what i meant, _not_ allowed

Kate (rushomancy), Thursday, 30 June 2022 18:53 (one year ago) link

I look at this board maybe once a week as habit. There are what, 20-40 active users at a time it seems and I no longer actively participate so I have no reason to say how people should try to behave or make it a better place since I tuned out. If I want to talk in-depth about a topic I go to a subreddit or discord or slack. I don't think ilx is set up for that but people obviously still prefer it here to other places. Probably due to no reactions to your posts and not needing to see notifications of your name. It's like a passive aggressive place to be.

Yerac, Thursday, 30 June 2022 19:35 (one year ago) link

many xposts LL i am still here, alive & well

i engage in the threads i like to engage in, talk to the ppl i like to talk to, and try not to take too much of anything else itt on board. (i have to do this for my own health)

if ppl respond or don’t respond to me i dont take it personally. there’s plenty of times that i read a post & have nothing to add, doesnt mean ppl dont engage w it in their own way.

sorry if that’s too charitable pvmic i guess idk

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 30 June 2022 21:19 (one year ago) link

oh there are definitely still people i like here, but I also see them other places. Part of this I think is just the culmination of a lot of stuff eroding and final frustrations after so many years. Since it's the same people posting here you already know their schtick and their repetitions and maybe politics just finally broke ilx. Like, I really don't need to know what the dude that plays with his genitals at work thinks about Ruth Bader Ginsburg in context of abortion bans.

Yerac, Thursday, 30 June 2022 22:33 (one year ago) link

Truth

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 1 July 2022 00:30 (one year ago) link

Yay VG
Your presence makes me happy 😃

Piggy Lepton (La Lechera), Friday, 1 July 2022 01:07 (one year ago) link

Yay VG
Your presence makes me happy 😃

Piggy Lepton (La Lechera), Friday, 1 July 2022 01:07 (one year ago) link

+1 to the girl count, and +1 to the yay VG! count. Reading here pretty much daily but only a handful of threads. I've also avoided the SCOTUS and politics threads for years.

Jaq, Friday, 1 July 2022 01:40 (one year ago) link

can't think of a greasier slide straight down to the pits of despair than talking politics w/ cishetdudes, if others wanna take up that burden i wish them strength but i ain't throwing myself on that trashfire

bule bulak oying (cat), Friday, 1 July 2022 03:05 (one year ago) link

no offense to the allies, i just feel my oxygen mask slipping off any time conversation turns that way

bule bulak oying (cat), Friday, 1 July 2022 03:07 (one year ago) link

you know what i think? you know what i really think?

_there is something wrong with cis men_

i don't think it's just that manhood wasn't right for _me_. i look at cisnormative masculinity and i think this is something that doesn't work for _anybody_. us most of all. their patriarchy hurts us most of all and that's what's most important, but it doesn't work for _them_ either. so many of them are even worse at being men than _i_ was. they are so broken, so fragile, so _hurt_, but you can't tell them that. you can't tell them that because if you tell them that they will get _angry_ and they will _hurt us_.

i love men so much, but it's not _safe_ for me to be around cis men. i can't help them. i have to walk away.

really happy for nd stevenson though. i'm so happy for nate, it's so so awesome.

Kate (rushomancy), Friday, 1 July 2022 04:23 (one year ago) link

seems 2 me like all the gender straitjackets are designed to drive their inhabitants bonkers, ideally in ways which reinforce the patriarchal paradigm

bule bulak oying (cat), Friday, 1 July 2022 06:54 (one year ago) link

I really don't need to know what the dude that plays with his genitals at work thinks about Ruth Bader Ginsburg in context of abortion bans

omg ... this is so great ... i am laughing and laughing ...

sarahell, Saturday, 2 July 2022 21:38 (one year ago) link

Hi bbs!

Ima Gardener (in orbit), Saturday, 2 July 2022 23:53 (one year ago) link

I'm kinda still here but mostly can't be arsed. The same ol stuff in threads doesn't appeal.

Ima Gardener (in orbit), Saturday, 2 July 2022 23:58 (one year ago) link

hey you! every so often i think about this post you made in response to some ilx woman's shitty boyfriend issues that was something like "there is no laurel buffet" like, you are not obligated to be accommodating to the dude, if you aren't getting what you want from the relationship. ... i think?

sarahell, Sunday, 3 July 2022 05:51 (one year ago) link

Wow, I had forgotten that quip but I like it! I hope I said it about one of my own shitty ex-boyfriends tbh.

Ima Gardener (in orbit), Sunday, 3 July 2022 13:14 (one year ago) link

i think it was inspired by one of your own iirc

sarahell, Sunday, 3 July 2022 15:58 (one year ago) link

It's a long list.

I'm personally in a space of wondering whether it's worth trying to have relationships w men because I'm just so tired of having *that* conversation over and over again. I think this is driven by my having basically moved in with my bf of many years during the pandemic. We're not great for each other 24/7, we need some space between us. I've been gone for about 2 weeks traveling and stuff, and tbh it sounds like he has a really healthy routine set up for himself and I feel the same.

Ima Gardener (in orbit), Sunday, 3 July 2022 16:10 (one year ago) link

It's more expensive for me to live in the city so staying w him was something of a cost-saving measure while I'm trying to get employed again. Not ideal.

Ima Gardener (in orbit), Sunday, 3 July 2022 16:11 (one year ago) link

Is it that the two week break made you realize you don't want to return to how the relationship was? or that you can only see the relationship growing/ continuing if you have preplanned time apart.

Yerac, Sunday, 3 July 2022 16:17 (one year ago) link

Let's just say for now that the reason it was possible for us to make the 8 year mark was that we weren't together all the time and, speaking for myself, I had time to nourish myself with my other friendships and wasn't trying to get so much of my socialization from one person.

Ima Gardener (in orbit), Sunday, 3 July 2022 16:24 (one year ago) link

yeah, and I guess it is also a difficult thing to gauge because of the extremes of the last two years.

Yerac, Sunday, 3 July 2022 16:35 (one year ago) link

if i'd had the vocab during my teen years i might have gone with non-binary bcuz of not identifying with any of the standard """woman""" archetypes, but now it's whatever

totally, I was the same (I probably posted about this a bit way upthread)! and welcome cat!

sarahell, Sunday, 3 July 2022 17:37 (one year ago) link

ay! (☞゚ヮ゚)☞

i remember that laurel post too! i took it as, like, prospective s.o.’s don’t get to pick and choose which parts of you to take on, it’s the whole enchilada o nada, and i thought that was very cool

bule bulak oying (cat), Sunday, 3 July 2022 18:35 (one year ago) link

yes! your memory is probably more accurate.

sarahell, Sunday, 3 July 2022 18:48 (one year ago) link

I also remember! Such an apt expression, love it.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Sunday, 3 July 2022 18:49 (one year ago) link

I take anti-anxiety meds (which also help with some low-level OCD stuff) and I don't remember things as well as I used to ... for the most part, this is a very good thing.

sarahell, Sunday, 3 July 2022 18:49 (one year ago) link

the meds also enable me to scroll past and/or ignore annoying and potentially enraging ilx content without having to figure out how to use killfile. It's kinda like my approach to alcohol consumption -- try to do it in moderation with "cold turkey" being the last resort if I can't do moderation.

sarahell, Sunday, 3 July 2022 18:52 (one year ago) link

yeah, and I guess it is also a difficult thing to gauge because of the extremes of the last two years.

― Yerac

yeah COVID deffo played a big part in tanking my marriage. as far as meds i've started shit-tons over the past couple years. finally acknowledged that yeah i'm bipolar, started taking a mood stabilizer. got diagnosed with adhd, taking adderall for that. the stuff that's helped most is the HRT, honestly. it's changed the way i process anger _so much_. like, being angry makes me physically weak now.

Kate (rushomancy), Sunday, 3 July 2022 20:00 (one year ago) link

what mood stabilizer?

sarahell, Sunday, 3 July 2022 20:02 (one year ago) link

lamictal

Kate (rushomancy), Sunday, 3 July 2022 20:35 (one year ago) link

hi! still intermittently here, mostly just lurking. hello everyone! hope you're well! hope absent former regulars are well too! hi & welcome cat!

if i'd had the vocab during my teen years i might have gone with non-binary bcuz of not identifying with any of the standard """woman""" archetypes, but now it's whatever

Yeah, add me to this list. Might conceivably have gone further than "non-binary"; when I was a v small kid I really wanted to be a boy, or even thought I was a boy and there was just some mystifying cosmic clerical error resulting in everyone else pretending otherwise. Loved when old ladies mistook me for a boy and hated when my mum corrected them. As a teenager I heard the words "is that a boy or a girl" bellowed down the street or across a party at me pretty frequently and cursed my fat hamstery freckled cheeks and ginger hair for not being gamine and gothic enough to pull off the cool kind of androgynous.

And now I'm content to be a straight cis middle-aged woman, or at least if I'm not content it's not due to the gender part. But when I was younger I had some proto-terfy ideas because I thought "I've never felt like a woman but nobody gave me any choice about it, so anyone who thinks they do feel like a woman is making some kind of category error", and you know what? I was wrong, the category error was on my part, and I'm sorry.

(esp sorry bcz I think I posted some dumb offensive shit on ILX along those lines which I apologise for and hope nobody ever reads again, including me, so I'm not going to go looking so I can apologise in the right place tbh)

So yes, I fell for some early terfy "what about the tomboys?" articles/sentiment, and then noticed a lot of the people who said that were apparently very cool with harrassing trans people & unsure kids & insufficiently feminine-presenting women alike, and now apparently they're having horrible ideas about checking teenage girls' underpants before sporting events - so really fuck those people, and good for the tomboys and the unsure kids if they have more options open to them to explore and hopefully a more accepting world to explore them in (or not, I mean OK, some signs aren't good, maybe even a lot of them, but there's still been a lot of progress in this respect since I was a teenager). All for it. Good luck to 'em.

Sorry, went off on one there. Just babbling away to myself, same as it ever was.

a passing spacecadet, Tuesday, 5 July 2022 19:04 (one year ago) link

Yeah, add me to this list. Might conceivably have gone further than "non-binary"; when I was a v small kid I really wanted to be a boy, or even thought I was a boy and there was just some mystifying cosmic clerical error resulting in everyone else pretending otherwise. Loved when old ladies mistook me for a boy and hated when my mum corrected them. As a teenager I heard the words "is that a boy or a girl" bellowed down the street or across a party at me pretty frequently and cursed my fat hamstery freckled cheeks and ginger hair for not being gamine and gothic enough to pull off the cool kind of androgynous.

― a passing spacecadet, Tuesday, July 5, 2022 12:04 PM (yesterday)

So this is the thing, this is the difficult thing for me to talk about.

It took me 43 years, give or take, to figure out something which is in retrospect blindingly obvious: I'm a woman. Why did it take me 43 years? Because I was misinformed about gender, misinformed about what determines it, what it _is_. Specifically, I was _not_ ever told that gender and genital anatomy are not the same thing. It took me a _very long time_ to understand, accept, and internalize this basic fact. The idea that gender and genital anatomy were the same thing was a fundamental, axiomatic part of my worldview. The truth of the matter is that I was, myself, transphobic, that I still struggle with what is termed "internalized transphobia". The false beliefs I internalized are _persistent_, persistent in myself most of all.

The difficult thing is knowing that the deck was not just stacked against me, but against fucking _everybody_. I never really got to ask the question, consider the possibility. And by the time I could, well, I had a lot to lose from it. It was, really, desperation that led me to exploring my gender. I'd been miserable, fucked up, for a very long time, for no reason I could figure out, and I'd tried pretty much everything else. CW: self-harm I figured it'd kill me, but fuck it, I figured I didn't have long to live anyway.

And this is in some ways the worse lie, the lie that being trans is _bad_. That we're _cursed_ and _miserable_ and that gender exploration is, for a lot of us, a last resort.

That's painful for me to watch. People have the absolute right to self-determination, but something like gender? That should be a _first_ resort, not a _last_ resort. The bias was so pervasive, so universal, where I think... Honestly? I think _every single cis person_ should re-evaluate their gender identity. Ask the hard questions. People ask us over and over again "But what _makes_ you trans?", and the snappy answer is "OK, but what _makes_ you cis?". Both those questions are stupid questions. They're not answerable, and we don't need to have answers.

Even the _labels_ get in the way, a lot of times. Gender is experimental, but there's this huge bias against experiment. Right now most of the people who question come to the same conclusion, and I think that's a _systemic problem_. I am really in favor of genderfuck, not just for "trans people" or people with "gender dysphoria" but for ANYBODY AND EVERYBODY. Get a new haircut. Take a new name, new pronouns, different clothes, different approaches to body care, not _because_ of anything but just for the hell of it. Because we were told it was the worst thing on earth, but in fact it doesn't do anybody any real harm, and it can do us a _hell of a lot of good_.

When I see someone say something like what you say above, spacecadet... I know this is dangerous, I know this might be taken the wrong way, but I would _encourage_ you to see what happens if you rephrase that "might have gone" to "might go". I'm not _diagnosing_ or offering any _opinion_ in any way on these things, but the things you list off are... pretty common experiences a lot of trans and gender diverse people have.

Because here's lie #3, to the extent that any of us were taught about "gender dysphoria", what we were taught about it was... grossly _inadequate_ and _misleading_. I think it would particularly be of benefit for everyone, cis, trans, everyone, to understand gender dysphoria more accurately. The Gender Dysphoria Bible at genderdysphoria.fyi is a great resource. Again, this is _not_ something _anybody else_ can diagnose in someone else, any more than someone else can diagnose me with The Gay, but most of us didn't have the tools at our disposal for healthy understanding of our gender, and nowadays these tools are available.

Not trying to get into your shit here. This is just stuff everyone... ought to know, but most people don't.

Kate (rushomancy), Wednesday, 6 July 2022 18:15 (one year ago) link

idk for me, a lot of it was "why would I want to be the gender category that is marginalized and oppressed? why would anyone want to be this if they could choose?" I think the reason I had gender dysphoria growing up and periodically as an adult, is less about wanting to be male, and to have male anatomy, but because men had power, had more opportunities, and that's what I wanted. I wanted to be able to drive a forklift and play drums, I didn't want to be able to grow a beard or have a dick.

I am seeing a lot more people in my community get gender affirming surgery (and doing crowdfunding if its something they can't afford to pay for), which makes me think this is something that is way more accessible now than in decades prior ... which I think is great. I feel like that shouldn't be a barrier, if it allows someone to be more comfortable in their own body.

sarahell, Wednesday, 6 July 2022 18:56 (one year ago) link

idk for me, a lot of it was "why would I want to be the gender category that is marginalized and oppressed? why would anyone want to be this if they could choose?" I think the reason I had gender dysphoria growing up and periodically as an adult, is less about wanting to be male, and to have male anatomy, but because men had power, had more opportunities, and that's what I wanted. I wanted to be able to drive a forklift and play drums, I didn't want to be able to grow a beard or have a dick.

I am seeing a lot more people in my community get gender affirming surgery (and doing crowdfunding if its something they can't afford to pay for), which makes me think this is something that is way more accessible now than in decades prior ... which I think is great. I feel like that shouldn't be a barrier, if it allows someone to be more comfortable in their own body.

― sarahell

Right. I mean, this is also what makes it difficult to talk about because of, my favorite phrase as a data analyst is "confounding variables". Just because someone has had experiences that a lot of people who have gender dysphoria have doesn't make them gender dysphoric. It's more that... if there's any possible _other_ explanation for something besides gender dysphoria, trans people will just _immediately_ gravitate to that, just because trans people are so fucking marginalized and hated.

Patriarchy and misogyny make being a woman really difficult and it's eminently reasonable to hate being a woman because we have to deal with this bullshit for, well, basically no fucking reason. Cis men have it a lot easier. It's kind of a weird thing for _me_ of all people to talk about because yes, patriarchy and misogyny suck, I hate them, and I am... pretty vehement about opposing them, but at the same time being a woman is still really important to me.

But there's also this overhang of... I mean, being a man isn't about driving a forklift or playing drums, there's no reason women can't do either of those things, but it's also not about growing a beard or having a dick! Most trans guys don't have bottom surgery. A lot lot lot of transmasc people don't take hormones.

I will note also that what a trans person wants - hell, what _any_ person wants - can and often does change over time! For a long time I thought I couldn't be _really_ trans because I didn't want bottom surgery, and here I am having actually had bottom surgery. I was talking to a transmasc friend a couple weeks ago and he talked about the pressure he faced to go on hormones as a trans man in the '90s. It was shitty that he faced that sort of pressure to do something he didn't want to do, and a TERF will look at that and say "see? IRREVERSIBLE DAMAGE" but it's more complicated than that in practice. Hormones weren't right for him then, but he's taking T now. He's older, wiser, and he's making an informed decision about what's right for him. The trans community is, as well, has grown wiser over the years, and that sort of pressure to start taking hormones just isn't something I've observed in practice since starting transition myself a couple years ago.

It gets really difficult because the way transmasc erasure works is different from transfem erasure, there's this idea that it's a _betrayal_ of a _sisterhood_ to not simply, straightforwardly, and uncomplicatedly be a woman. Your TERFs of the world will say, correctly enough, that you can drive a forklift and play drums and still be a woman, but if someone just doesn't _want_ to think of themselves as a woman or be seen as a woman by others, why the fuck should they have to?

(The way we are seen by others is a _really important_ component of gender that gets a little thrown under the bus by "born this way" narratives. I benefit greatly not only from understanding myself as a woman, but by being _recognized_ as a woman by other people - this is a big source of what is often termed "gender euphoria".)

There's this sort of implicit question of _motive_ underlying gender stuff, and to me it's just... irrelevant. I'm not out to destroy gender or anything like that. Womanhood _works_ for me. I function better and am happier as a woman than I was when everybody thought of me as a man, and in that sense, I do think there is some value to the idea of gender. The _norms_ of gender, though? Obliterate them. Smash them into a million billion pieces. Terrible, awful little things.

Kate (rushomancy), Wednesday, 6 July 2022 21:59 (one year ago) link

i picked up this concept from some feminist author æons ago, to which i strongly related & which i will now awkwardly paraphrase:

when people who were raised as girls start being treated like women (i.e. when men start sexually objectifying you to your face) they feel this horror of becoming alien to themselves. they had been kids, but apparently now the outside world is classifying them as Woman, and Woman is a scary gross weird intimidating thing to be: the vamp who makes the wolf's eyes pop out of his skull, the nagging harridan wife, the bitter dried-up spinster, the gauzy angelic impossible girl-next-door ideal, etc.

these had all been The Other but now suddenly it's supposed to be you. but you still feel like you, so that can't be right, but then what are you? so a lot of girls try to hold on to their identity with variations of "I'm a person, not a woman" to forestall their personhood being subsumed by these female cultural totems.

but then if you're lucky/privileged you can get old and stop caring, except insofar as government & employers & family & doctors & dangerous randos on the street are concerned

similar nightmare stuff for people raised as boys, maybe

fucking gender norms imo

i REFUSE to pay for my own cbd (cat), Sunday, 10 July 2022 21:45 (one year ago) link

these had all been The Other but now suddenly it's supposed to be you. but you still feel like you, so that can't be right, but then what are you? so a lot of girls try to hold on to their identity with variations of "I'm a person, not a woman" to forestall their personhood being subsumed by these female cultural totems.

similar nightmare stuff for people raised as boys, maybe

fucking gender norms imo

― i REFUSE to pay for my own cbd (cat)

not ime, this is like what male privilege means to me, that they are always fundamentally viewed as _people_ in a way that women aren't. that's been one of the weirdest experiences of my transition, at age 43 suddenly all these guys see me as a fetish object and it's just like _why_? that's the aspect of dealing with misogyny i didn't really get pre-transition, the aspect of "dude what even is _wrong_ with you, can you just like not be weird and creepy?" i was talking about it with a friend yesterday, like i never really got along with guys in a social setting but you come out to guys and even if they're not transphobes they get really awkward, like you can see the gears in their brain churning going like "wait, am i supposed to want to fuck her now?" todd, it doesn't _matter_, i'm not going to have sex with you, there's nothing to think about here.

Kate (rushomancy), Monday, 11 July 2022 15:57 (one year ago) link

oh hai I just wanted to say that I really appreciated everyone's posts which gave me a lot to think about and a lot I agreed with! and I was full of enthusiasm for replying to various points once I worked out where to start

and then my mood/energy crashed again and I didn't post anything, but I didn't want anyone to think I'd been scared off/upset by/just plain ignoring their very good posts. I'd really just have been posting 3 pages of quotes interspersed with "yes, this" anyway tbh, so I'll just put "yes, all of this!" here and hope it will suffice (for now, or maybe in general)

fucking gender norms imo indeed

a passing spacecadet, Monday, 11 July 2022 22:22 (one year ago) link

todd, it doesn't _matter_, i'm not going to have sex with you

irl lol ... and otm re the male privilege. ... women (at least in my vague recollection of Lacanian theory related to film) are always the imaginary (the fantasy, the object of projection) ... as opposed to men, who "get to be" the symbolic and can construct identity through language and narrative (in that they control such things)

sarahell, Tuesday, 12 July 2022 00:34 (one year ago) link

one month passes...

Every time I come back here it’s a mistake. Male discomfort will always be prioritised over female pain here.

Osama bin Chinese (gyac), Tuesday, 16 August 2022 20:43 (one year ago) link

A reflection of the world we live in :(
Sucks. I’m finally at the point where I don’t think the benefit of casual jib jab outweighs the vom factor.

Piggy Lepton (La Lechera), Tuesday, 16 August 2022 22:19 (one year ago) link

I don't know if it's getting worse, I'm noticing it more, or if I'm getting more and more outraged at essentially the same thing as I get older. (In general, not just here)

kinder, Tuesday, 16 August 2022 22:40 (one year ago) link

My ability to call out bullshit has improved — my detection has always been strong but when it came to calling it out I would often find myself too vulnerable/upset to say anything. I don’t care why (probably age) but idgaf anymore.

Piggy Lepton (La Lechera), Tuesday, 16 August 2022 23:59 (one year ago) link

Obviously I don't have much of a personal perspective on whether or not it's getting worse. It's one of the things that keeps me coming back here, honestly, knowing that I used to be like that myself. So guys behaving like that, I don't think it's a gender thing at all, I just think it's pure uncut ignorance. It fascinated me enough, what went down Sunday, that I wrote a 3,000 word essay about it Monday morning.

I don't know. I want to believe it is better. I want to believe that the men who do take us seriously - and a lot of men don't - take us more seriously.

Probably the first time I understood this aspect of being a woman... I don't remember when exactly it was, but it was before my egg cracked, before I even came out to myself. I made some entirely innocuous, milquetoast statement looking at things from... just looking at things from a woman's perspective, seeing things how a woman might see it, over on Reddit. Jesus I got downvoted so fucking hard on that one. Like we're talking Kelvin levels of karma on that post. That was about the time I quit posting to Reddit.

What surprised me most about the response on Sunday was that it was only about one or two people, only one guy really, and someone actually angrily pointed out to him how egregiously, ludicrously awful what he'd said was. Yeah, it was "That's my sister you're talking about, asshole", the thing where you have to basically _personally attack a guy's sister_ for him to take offense, but I mean, a lot of guys, they won't even stand up for their own sister that way.

I like that ILX is a small board, these days. I think on a larger board I would've been dogpiled for saying the stuff I said. My feeling is less "I can't believe people can be that awful" and more "I can't believe I got away with saying the shit I said". Maybe I'm too pessimistic about men, but I spent 40 years listening to what they said about us behind our backs, when they thought we weren't listening. Compared with what I heard there, the stuff on this board is... encouraging.

That's why I'm here, mostly. I don't really spend a lot of time around cis men. It's sort of... a controlled, safe environment, for me. No transphobia, not enough people left for a dogpile. It's as close as I get to feeling safe on the public Internet.

Kate (rushomancy), Wednesday, 17 August 2022 00:32 (one year ago) link

For me, June really brought it home just how much they fucking _hate_ women. I mean, I knew they hated _me_, but it's not just me, it's not just women _like_ me, it's _all of us_. That's what I took from June. Even though June wasn't, by and large, anything to do with me, it still changed me.

Kate (rushomancy), Wednesday, 17 August 2022 00:35 (one year ago) link

oh shit you were talking about a _different thread_ i see now

Kate (rushomancy), Wednesday, 17 August 2022 01:17 (one year ago) link

My ability to call out bullshit has improved — my detection has always been strong but when it came to calling it out I would often find myself too vulnerable/upset to say anything. I don’t care why (probably age) but idgaf anymore.

fwiw i really appreciate all of you on here who are still calling it out. my default response these days is eye roll, "close tab".

Roz, Wednesday, 17 August 2022 02:28 (one year ago) link

Apparently I missed something? Ah well, probably for the best.

I have lost a lot of tolerance for bloviating, which makes some posters just too much for me.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Wednesday, 17 August 2022 04:30 (one year ago) link

two months pass...

woke feminist dudes of ilx posting everything EXCEPT any interest in where the sixish women of ilx are in all of this


Ah quincie, why do you have to drop truth bombs like this

after several days on “the milk,” (gyac), Wednesday, 9 November 2022 14:24 (one year ago) link

what was that even about?

kinder, Wednesday, 9 November 2022 16:27 (one year ago) link

This was when Roe v Wade was repealed.

after several days on “the milk,” (gyac), Wednesday, 9 November 2022 16:31 (one year ago) link

figures

kinder, Wednesday, 9 November 2022 16:35 (one year ago) link

I think stuff like that is related to the way that marginalized groups have used social media to self-segregate ... as in, this thread, being an example ... and I feel like there is also a connection to factionalization of the Left, in that, when you have the benefit of a self-segregated group away from the dominant identity, going back to the larger group of "comrades" and having to often fight to be heard / seen / taken seriously is less appealing.

sarahell, Wednesday, 9 November 2022 17:03 (one year ago) link

* should probably just be "the internet" and not just "social media" ... you can probably trace it back to usenet era

sarahell, Wednesday, 9 November 2022 17:09 (one year ago) link

I am a fan of many ilxbros but man, as a collective their feminism feels quite performative.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Wednesday, 9 November 2022 19:12 (one year ago) link

also sarahell otm

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Wednesday, 9 November 2022 19:13 (one year ago) link

I am a fan of many ilxbros but man, as a collective their feminism feels quite performative.

― mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Wednesday, November 9, 2022 11:12 AM (thirty-five minutes ago)

yeah! ... I think I tend to just "ignore and avoid" because the conversations/arguments are mainly for each other / with each other ... with non-bros as potential audience, as opposed to, uh, equal participants? idk. I guess I admire their confidence in a way.

sarahell, Wednesday, 9 November 2022 19:51 (one year ago) link

I forget where we (and/or ILX in general) were discussing this, but it's like there's a default identity in threads.

There is a "subject position" (sorry for academic) that it is assumed the majority holds in a thread, and it will vary from thread to thread (e.g. regional threads will assume that the poster/reader lives in that area or is "from" there, though some assume that way more intensively than others). If you don't have that "default identity," it is common for people just not to post. Those that do, again depending on the thread, will either be welcomed and/or deferred to, or shot down/dismissed. But, it's a risk on the part of the poster, right? Is it worth taking?

sarahell, Wednesday, 9 November 2022 20:01 (one year ago) link

two months pass...

Sorry Roz.

can you still hit dinngers (gyac), Monday, 23 January 2023 18:00 (one year ago) link

not at all, i knew it was going to get some folks riled up and that I prob wasn’t going to able to respond adequately as I’m on a whole different time zone to the rest of ilx

thank you though, I really appreciated your posts

Roz, Monday, 23 January 2023 18:07 (one year ago) link

It’s not even that, it’s like, I don’t think I even knew your background and I immediately got where you were coming from because I read your fucking post. But, you know. I was just really annoyed reading all that. So much bloviating.

can you still hit dinngers (gyac), Monday, 23 January 2023 18:09 (one year ago) link

lol yeah this is why I generally don’t post on film threads

I just couldn’t ignore it today because people were saying careless things about a film with a very careless ending

Roz, Monday, 23 January 2023 18:31 (one year ago) link

two weeks pass...

bracing myself for the response to me saying its not chill for a band to write only violently misogynistic rape anthems on the metal thread, but i know it, having been posted by me, is more likely to just be ignored :)

i do remember the last time i brought this up being condescended to by jd for not understanding trauma or whatever

here 1st (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 17:06 (one year ago) link

Hey!

I am not in that thread but yeah. I totally feel you. It is bad, right? It’s not just me?

here you go, muttonchops Yaz (gyac), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 17:08 (one year ago) link

it is bad

here 1st (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 17:09 (one year ago) link

Ps on an entirely different note, I need to know, do you still like classic Tim Lincecum?

here you go, muttonchops Yaz (gyac), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 17:10 (one year ago) link

about 10 years ago i brought up the fact that folks didn't respond to the things i said in there, that then someone else would say the same things and get a response, and someone said it (my sentiment) "felt like high school"

here 1st (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 17:10 (one year ago) link

YES i still live for The Franchise lol

here 1st (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 17:11 (one year ago) link

Yeah. I know most of the replies are probably not gendered per se but fuck me if the tendency to bloviate and talk over people isn’t so very male.

It didn’t even happen to me and I’m still angry a load of American men queued up to tell Roz the racism in Tár was explainable through increasingly convoluted explanations.

here you go, muttonchops Yaz (gyac), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 17:11 (one year ago) link

xp ok I am into him like a million years late, I have a thread in baseball that is about me getting into baseball and is strongly likely to be relevant to your interests

PS did you know he attended the women’s march????

PPS
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/11573497/D4rn4kA.gif

(Suggest we take this part of the convo to my thread? Or email? Idk!)

here you go, muttonchops Yaz (gyac), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 17:14 (one year ago) link

about 10 years ago i brought up the fact that folks didn't respond to the things i said in there, that then someone else would say the same things and get a response, and someone said it (my sentiment) "felt like high school"


I had to laugh when I made a relatively long post about something recently and someone co-signed it like they’d understood anything about the point (this is not subtle lol) and it was so bad I had someone not even in the conversation message me and go “lol, that’s glaring af”

here you go, muttonchops Yaz (gyac), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 17:16 (one year ago) link

i did not know he attended the women's march but i love that!!

i know what you mean with the responses not being specifically gendered...but also its like, the context is heavily gendered, we live in a society!!! lol. to not consider that makes your message fucked up. you cant opt out

here 1st (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 17:17 (one year ago) link

It’s also Quite The Thing for people to be like, oh you complain too much, like

do you want things to get worse? Clearly you would prefer my silence

Idk idk ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

here you go, muttonchops Yaz (gyac), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 17:18 (one year ago) link

lol y'all talking about my "homeboy" ... Tim L is like Steph Curry ... he not only plays/played for the Bay, but reps the values the area is known for.

sarahell, Wednesday, 8 February 2023 18:19 (one year ago) link

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Let’s just say I understand those of you who stopped bothering a lot more today!

here you go, muttonchops Yaz (gyac), Sunday, 19 February 2023 21:09 (one year ago) link

"young pussy" ...

sarahell, Sunday, 19 February 2023 21:31 (one year ago) link

one month passes...

i remember people making fun of momus (+ occasionally actually criticizing him) for fetishizing asian women, but did ILX ever come at momus for being a rapist / "dating" a 14 year old child when he was in his 30s

here 1st (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 11 April 2023 16:11 (one year ago) link

ew.

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Wednesday, 12 April 2023 02:11 (one year ago) link

The old thread where this is discussed has some incredibly eyebrow-rasing defending going on in it too.

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Wednesday, 12 April 2023 02:16 (one year ago) link

So yeah I guess some ppl did? (JW in particular)

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Wednesday, 12 April 2023 02:17 (one year ago) link

I don’t remember that thread!

here 1st (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 12 April 2023 02:23 (one year ago) link

gross.

werewolves of laudanum (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 12 April 2023 02:33 (one year ago) link

I didnt either, I googled Momus dating 14 yr old and an old ILX thread is one of the first hits lol

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Wednesday, 12 April 2023 03:55 (one year ago) link

I didn’t encounter much first-hand momus back in the day (was he mostly on ilm?), and definitely wasn’t aware of this but i dunno, very much in character maybe? Fucking ugh just NO

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Wednesday, 12 April 2023 05:21 (one year ago) link

Is this the thread where it’s discussed?

Britain's youngest mother

limb tins & cum (gyac), Wednesday, 12 April 2023 06:18 (one year ago) link

oof that whole thread :/

had no idea about this either. and he married her when she was 17? fucking hell

Roz, Wednesday, 12 April 2023 07:29 (one year ago) link

Shazna said: "I was only 14 and I had a crush on a boy who was a fan of Nick's music.

"But the relationship never got off the ground and I wrote a letter to Nick telling him. It was a kind of agony aunt letter.

"He wrote a very nice letter back to me and said that we should meet some time and talk.

"Months later we met and got on really well."

Sounds like….. grooming. I’m never ever going to believe there’s any reason a mid-30s man would be friends with a 14yr old girl.

just1n3, Wednesday, 12 April 2023 08:55 (one year ago) link

Jesus this is horrible. I agree that there is no valid reason for a grown adult to “”””befriend””””” a 14 year old. I watched the final portion of Surviving R Kelly a few days ago and have no tolerance for enablers. I didn’t before watching it either but it’s so clear people had to create the space for him to do the revolting things he did. 🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮

Piggy Lepton (La Lechera), Wednesday, 12 April 2023 12:59 (one year ago) link

I've actually thought about the lack of pushback on this a fair bit over the years, and it's definitely horrible. The narrative was that he married her to save her from forced marriage, and it was all very noble and honourable. It was all nicely packaged to not just be acceptable but to play into a white saviour complex. It's one of the many things that makes me question just how easy I find it to believe people when they confidently state that they have done nothing wrong - why did I, personally, not push back on this narrative harder? How often am I still accepting things that I should not, or making excuses for people who I should not be?

emil.y, Wednesday, 12 April 2023 13:26 (one year ago) link

yah, 16 yrs ago i'm sure i'd've said stuff on that thread that would now sound horrifying as hell, and in the 90s? lord, teen me would have thought momus was a freaking hero & wld prob have tried to wrangle an underaged marriage for my own fool self. "woah how rebellious & romantic & glam & subversive! how do i shot matrimony w/ louche indie darling"

can't wait to look back in another 20-30 yrs and be aghast at all my current bad opinions (does that sound flippant? i mean it, actually, tho. i want to perpetually become a more kind & conscious cat)

bloompsadaisy (cat), Wednesday, 12 April 2023 14:33 (one year ago) link

i was always vaguely confused by the whole momus thing, but i remember thinking he sucked and was wildly offensive constantly when i encountered his posts. it was...bewildering how many otherwise smart and decent-seeming dudes on ilx had his back.

horseshoe, Saturday, 15 April 2023 19:21 (one year ago) link

and i know what you mean, emil.y. particularly when i was first on ilx in my 20s there was so much ambient objectification and thoughtless sexism that confused me, and i was so ready to be like, but so many of these people are smart, so i must be missing something.

horseshoe, Saturday, 15 April 2023 19:22 (one year ago) link

xp very much before my time but literally every time I read an old post in some old thread I’m like, seriously?

Everybody's gonna get what they got coming (gyac), Saturday, 15 April 2023 19:25 (one year ago) link

Yes — I remember trying to understand that thread that was about “girls on bikes in skirts with beers” or whatever it was. I remember thinking that in order to be attractive one must also be carefree & easygoing, which I was not bc I felt inflamed by the monolithic “girls”
I realize it’s not chill or cool to feel this but it always strikes me as informative at the very least when “girls” are invoked.

Piggy Lepton (La Lechera), Saturday, 15 April 2023 19:29 (one year ago) link

I can’t speak to that but I found it illuminating to look into that male antihero thread and find someone trying to hijack the discussion with “what about female antiheroes”.

Everybody's gonna get what they got coming (gyac), Saturday, 15 April 2023 19:35 (one year ago) link

That was also a fairly mild thread comparatively, light and breezy objectification

Piggy Lepton (La Lechera), Saturday, 15 April 2023 19:36 (one year ago) link

fuck being carefree & easygoing is how i break it down to an extent

horseshoe, Saturday, 15 April 2023 19:40 (one year ago) link

I can’t speak to that but I found it illuminating to look into that male antihero thread and find someone trying to hijack the discussion with “what about female antiheroes”.

― Everybody's gonna get what they got coming (gyac)

not just trying but succeeding! i did try do my own thread hijacking but nobody bit, which is probably just as well because i feel like i phrased it really poorly and if someone did bite it'd just turn into a huge clusterfuck

i'm much happier with people saying "well, what about cersei lannister?"

Kate (rushomancy), Saturday, 15 April 2023 22:23 (one year ago) link

there's this short story by casey plett (she writes stories about trans women) where the protagonist is going through her old stuff and sees a tucker max book she used to own, and that's just, like... a whole mood.

Kate (rushomancy), Saturday, 15 April 2023 22:26 (one year ago) link

emil.y and cat otm - i was very young and thought some pretty dumb shit when I first started posting on ilx, and it wasn't until much later that I learned to push back or question certain assumptions. and even now there are times where I see things being said that feel... off but can't find the right way to phrase my discomfort.

but re the male antiheroes thread - i thought about posting there but i can't be bothered, such a boring discussion imo. there are so, so many female antiheroes on TV - Villanelle on Killing Eve, Cookie Lyon on Empire, Claire Underwood on House of Cards, heck even OG Gossip Girl's Blair Waldorf. And never mind Cersei - House of the Dragon is led by two women who arguably both fit the anti-heroine bill.

The only reason men struggle to identify them is because they don't actually give a shit. Also women-led "prestige dramas" so often get seen instead as "prestige soaps".

Roz, Sunday, 16 April 2023 03:52 (one year ago) link

xps it was this post actually

m0stly clean (Slowsquatch)
Posted: 15 April 2023 at 19:10:48
Are there any despicable female antiheros?

And it’s like, literally had to see male filmbros shit up the Tár thread and behave disgracefully towards Roz of this thread not that long ago?

Besides that, the thread is not interesting per se except that that question is like, who is this for?

Anyway, Roz, Blair is an all time favourite of mine, the time she preemptively cuts Jenny off in the school corridor with “wasn’t me, wish it was!” is all time.

Everybody's gonna get what they got coming (gyac), Sunday, 16 April 2023 13:35 (one year ago) link

I think the thread is interesting… it’s kinda weird complaining about an ilx thread not being interesting when you aren’t obligated to read it?

sarahell, Monday, 17 April 2023 06:12 (eleven months ago) link

one month passes...

I was going to post this in the No Way NYT thread but decided to post about this here because my "no way" response is mostly due to feminist stuff. This is the first paragraph. I got angry and stopped reading. I then thought, why is this so aggravating, and is my anger problematic? Is it coming from a place of privilege?

One afternoon in 2020, early in the pandemic, I met Syl’violet and Matthew for a virtual session. Young, idealistic, deeply in love, they were also prone to dramatic fights. In this session Syl’violet, a vivacious essayist and spoken-word poet, was trying to describe the ways she felt Matthew, a measured medical student, was trying to control her, in this case by trying to dissuade her from buying a slushy. He thought they should keep to a tight budget until after he became a doctor and achieved financial stability. Then she could have “all the slushies you want later.” Syl’violet found his reasoning maddening, especially since he seemed to imply she was reckless.

Number one, this is so fucking petty. I hear about arguments like this and I feel like yelling at both people to grow the fuck up. It's not like I'm affluent, but, if I were in her position, (and I have been on occasion), I would just politely say, "It's my money, this is what I want, and I'm getting it, and it will work out." Maybe it becomes a topic of light bickering in the future, but going to couples therapy and focusing on something like this? ... idgi

Number two, if it isn't her money then it pisses me off (in this day and age) that a woman is expecting a man to financially provide for her. (Except in the case where she is disabled or dealing with an infant.) Or ... maybe she isn't expecting him to provide, but she doesn't keep her own money under her own control. But still, this is a bad power dynamic. I see women who are otherwise radical feminists engaging in it ... the dependence on a male partner for income and the comingling of money in inequitable ways. I know I have personal baggage on this topic, and some of the anger is coming from that place.

Number three, the paragraph itself ... it is lowkey infantilizing the woman (or at least positioning her as childish) ... "vivacious" "wants a slushy" ... the article is supposedly about how recent feminism and racial equity movements have changed relationship dynamics, and the first paragraph is positioning the woman as childlike ... maybe not a good thing to start with? Unless, the article wants to argue that these things are "not good" ... which uh, ouch. Not that.

sarahell, Sunday, 21 May 2023 13:17 (ten months ago) link

one month passes...

apologies if any of the following is out of line, i know that as a trans woman i don't have the same experiences with reproductive health that (i hate this term but i can't think of a better one here) "afabs" do, but this morning this asshole cis dude was trying to mansplain women's healthcare to me and i kind of wrote this up, just to talk about the way my experience with healthcare has changed since my transition

---

if it's ok, i want to say something respectfully about my experience, again, as a trans woman and the way my experience with medical care has changed since my transition. there are a lot of things medical care providers benefit from knowing, and sometimes i get asked them and sometimes i don't. one question they _always_ ask me since my transition, though, is if i'm pregnant or there's a chance i become pregnant. what's interesting is that if i have a uterus, my answer to the question doesn't matter. if someone has a uterus, they have to take a pregnancy test, even for a procedure (for example, a nasal septoplasty) that has no relation at all to reproductive health.

quite honestly, the way doctors treat me is pretty shocking. in my experience, the overweening interest in my reproductive capacity is _qualitatively different_ from any other questions people ask about my body. honestly, i sometimes get the impression that providers are interested in the question of whether or not i am pregnant more than they are interested in _my own body and well-being_. and i _particularly_ have had this experience with (redacted), which, as i'm sure everyone here is aware, is a catholic organization, is affiliated with a church which seeks to restrict women's reproductive rights as a matter of religious doctrine.

and i think that, speaking from my experience as someone who formerly _didn't_ have those experiences and now _does_, it is extremely important to me that cisgender men listen and take women (and gender expansive individuals who find home in women’s spaces) seriously when we talk about these experiences. and it is important to me that they acknowledge that our lived experiences give us knowledge and expertise on this subject that they simply _do not possess_, knowledge and expertise that _i_ did not possess before people started treating me as a woman.

Kate (rushomancy), Saturday, 15 July 2023 18:54 (nine months ago) link

My experience with medical care as someone who has a uterus is when they ask if I'm pregnant or could be pregnant, and I say no, they have just taken my word for it and dealt with the non-babby stuff that I was there to see them about. So, it sounds like it varies depending on provider.

sarahell, Saturday, 15 July 2023 20:04 (nine months ago) link

However, I have a friend who is a trans-man who had the most traumatic experience with the US medical system regarding the female parts he was born with when he was around 50. He did not want to go into detail and I respected that but .... that is a whole other thing that I know you, Kate, have probably also experienced as a trans person.

sarahell, Saturday, 15 July 2023 20:07 (nine months ago) link

However, I have a friend who is a trans-man who had the most traumatic experience with the US medical system regarding the female parts he was born with when he was around 50. He did not want to go into detail and I respected that but .... that is a whole other thing that I know you, Kate, have probably also experienced as a trans person.

― sarahell, Saturday, July 15, 2023 1:07 PM (eleven minutes ago)

i haven't experienced that sort of thing firsthand, honestly! i don't have any horror stories. no massive trauma. no wanton cruelty. it's one of those things... i think of myself as lucky, but then i have a friend who _has_ experienced massive trauma and she considers herself lucky because it's something she can't deny, dismiss, diminish. i've just had an endless series of what they used to call "microaggressions". i never liked that term, that phrasing, because it implies both intent and sort of minimizes the impact of this stuff at the same time. it's the kind of stuff, honestly, i figure most women will know the sort of thing i'm talking about - the assumptions, the careless comments, those little tells that just reinforce the underlying message women have gotten since birth - the idea that women are inferior, women are flawed versions of men, women have a _role_ and that role is and always will be _defined_ by men. transphobia just adds on top of that the message that i'm "not a real woman".

it's a difficult needle to thread... marginalized groups, everybody's experience is different. i'm talking with a friend, she's processing the abuse she suffered in her marriage and through that lens i'm kind of trying to process and come to grips with the way i was abused, and the framing she's looking at it through is the lens of transmisogyny. it's a term i have reservations about, mostly because i'm a descriptivist and "transmisogyny" to me evokes a decade of tumblr arguments, mostly between transfems and transmascs.

so in some ways yeah, as a cis woman you're not going to understand a lot of what i experience because that's not part of your lived experience, but at the same time it's important to me that we _do_ have a lot of things in common. "transmisogyny" implies a categorically different form of misogyny and i don't experience it like that. i experience certain _forms_ of misogyny that cis women don't face, but mostly it's kind of the same misogyny that cis women face, there's just more of it.

cis women, or AFABs if i wanna generalize it more, i believe that they categorically do experience forms of misogyny that i as a trans woman don't, and i think there's sometimes some resentment about that. like AFABs get consistently beaten down with the whole "women are inferior" message in _so_ many different ways from _birth_ and for me, i only started getting that message at age 43. (structurally i had privilege and a certain amount of ignorance but i never viewed women as being inferior in any way to men. my view of women was mostly, i mean, envy and imposter syndrome.) and probably there are certain advantages to not having gone my whole life being told i was inferior _because of my gender_. (i have a long history of abuse and of being told i was inferior, that's an idea i deeply internalized and am still trying to heal from, but _most_ of it wasn't because of my gender.)

that said, in practice it's just _not_ the advantage people who talk about me having "male privilege" or being "socialized male" think i have. in some ways it's a real _disadvantage_, even though i was raised to be a feminist, to be aware of patriarchy and the ways it oppresses women, the sudden, actual experience of that, and more than that, of knowing how _completely arbitrary, stupid, and pointless_ misogyny is... that does hit me pretty hard, and me trying to express that sometimes gets interpreted as me trying to talk over the experiences of cis women who have experienced this all their lives.

plus, a lot of normative masculinity is stupid and i was kind of conditioned to do and think a lot of stuff that became actively dangerous to me the second i started transition. any "male privilege" i'd been socialized with is shit i had to unlearn real fucking quick. going for a walk alone on the streets at night? not anymore you're not! most women my age have decades of experience learning how to keep themselves safe in a world that's systemically hostile to women. i don't have that experience. i don't envy anybody who's spent decades being systemically beaten down by misogyny, but someone like that _is_ going to have survival skills, honestly, that i just don't.

basically i think women, and even more broadly _all_ marginalized groups, _do_ have a lot of things in common, and while it's important to acknowledge our differences, seeing those differences as absolute, as us as being alien to each other, it frustrates me because what i really want is for us to be able to stand together to oppose the oppression we all face in differing ways. sometimes it is appropriate for me to step aside, for cis women's experiences to be centered. criminalizing abortion, that affects me as a trans woman, it's not just about "reproductive rights" but about actively asserting control over the bodies of women and gender minorities. in practical terms i don't have reproductive freedom and never have. most of the time i choose not to assert that, a ban on abortion affects trans people but it isn't a Trans Thing.

the same way, transphobia _does_ affect cis women, the way transphobia gets justified just seems to keep coming back to defining women as baby factories, which, maybe some people call that "feminist" but it isn't. these aren't different things, our experiences of oppression aren't alien to each other, we do have a common interest.

i'm talking a lot because i'm putting off taking a shower and going to pride. it's fucking _hot_. really fucking hot.

anyway. it varies, but i really do think this stuff affects all women and gender minorities in some form or another. even if we're not overtly aware of it.

Kate (rushomancy), Saturday, 15 July 2023 21:32 (nine months ago) link

Oh it definitely is a thing ... I should have phrased it as "I must be extremely lucky because I haven't had that experience!"

sarahell, Saturday, 15 July 2023 21:42 (nine months ago) link

A lot of the oppression aimed at cis women isn’t even universal - restrictions on reproductive rights only affect women of reproductive age with that ability, not every cis woman is capable of pregnancy or wants to. I grew up with family close who have difficulties with some of these matters, so due to this I maybe have a little less essentialist view of the subject than I might otherwise have.

I don’t think that this is a difficult ask of any cis woman.

The point about these oppressions often crossing between different groups is a good one. In the UK anti-trans groups targeting various measures are open about their desire to eliminate Gillick competency (the right of a child to opt for their own medical treatment in certain circumstances, the case that this hinges on was a young girl who wanted to take the pill against the wishes of her highly religious mother). I think also growing up in Ireland where the groups keeping abortion illegal are the same as the group pushing against trans rights makes things clearer.

Kate I want to think about your other points which touch on some difficult territory and I think have been exploited successfully by anti-trans groups. I’ll come back to this.

(who is an amazing ice cream maker by the way) (gyac), Saturday, 15 July 2023 21:54 (nine months ago) link

Kate I am a cis woman who finds your space-sucking on this thread and elsewhere off-putting because I associate it with crap dude behavior. Honest Q: does this put me into TERF territory?

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Sunday, 16 July 2023 02:56 (nine months ago) link

Quincie: Short answer is no, but it _is_, to my mind, indicative of internalized transphobia. Oh, also, _thank you_ for saying that.

Long, space-sucking answer follows.

One of the biggest challenges I have as a trans woman is that things get essentialized and reduced to my gender. So for instance, I'm really acutely aware that my logorrhea is off-putting, that I'm taking up space and making people, particularly people who are for gendered reasons _encouraged to be discreet, silent, not to speak_, feel uncomfortable speaking. And maybe part of that is that I was encouraged, as a "man", for most of my life, to be loud, to take up space. There's a lot more to it than that but I don't want to get off-track here.

And on top of that, since I'm a trans woman, there's this sense that you express, this _absolute concern_, that one is being "transphobic" if one criticizes a trans woman at all. So just as your question was sincere, I want to sincerely thank you for speaking up. Speaking as someone whose trauma manifests in BPD-like behavior, one of the things I struggle with most is maintaining healthy boundaries. I'm bad at it, and I rely a lot on external feedback, both positive and critical. I don't know how many people have left silently because I never shut up. I can't know that.

And that's the reason for a lot of my inappropriate behavior, honestly. I bounce all over the place between spaces because I don't want to overwhelm any one space, I don't want to make other people feel uncomfortable (and then I do anyway). I'll overengage with a place, like I've been doing here, and then ghost because I feel ashamed of my behavior.

My behavior is, I'd say, informed by my experience and history with gender. Where the internalized transphobia comes in is the tendency to reduce my gendered behavior to "that's just like a man". You're not alone in feeling that. My impression, honestly, is that most people feel that way, and that's not indicative of _individual prejudice_ against trans people. To me, though, it _is_ a sign that we were raised with transphobic norms. Using my name and pronouns doesn't erase or negative the bigotry we were all implicitly raised with.

That's the hardest thing for me to deal with. The things people think and don't say, and I know people think it, because it's what I was raised to believe, because I think it too. Someone says they're a trans woman and _logically_ one can be trans-affirming, one can think "oh, yes, trans women are women just like anybody else", but there's some connection buried deep down in the brain that says "trans women are men". No matter what we look like, no matter what we sound like.

It's the accidental misgenderings that hurt the worst. If somebody intentionally calls me a "man", they're just being an asshole. Their opinion doesn't count. If someone slips up without thinking and refers to me as "he", that hurts more. And I know how difficult it is, because four years and I still do that, with transmascs in particular. That's transphobic of me. My brain has this persistent belief that transmasculine people are women. I know, rationally, that's not true, but rewiring that internal connection... it's a lot of work.

So that, to me, is the important thing. We are all biased. We were all taught to be biased. When people are like "Oh I'm not transphobic", like it's a matter of individual virtue? Fuck that! We're all transphobic. Which is one of the reasons I never fucking shut up about being trans. It exhausts people, I know it does, like Kate we know you're trans, not everything is about you being trans, shut the fuck up already. It's possible, and probably common, to both _value_ my _perspective_ and still be like, Kate, girl, you've been talking for twenty minutes straight without taking a breath. Could you just, like. Breathe for a minute?

It's a tough balance to strike - a lot of this shit _is_ really important for me to talk about and my lived experience gives me the ability to talk about it that a lot of other people don't have, a perspective a lot of people don't have. I really want to push back against these assumptions and stereotypes that all of us have, that everyone here has spent decades being taught, to be _nuanced_ about this stuff. But also I never fucking shut up. And the BPD, the BPD sure as hell doesn't make it any easier.

Kate (rushomancy), Sunday, 16 July 2023 15:21 (nine months ago) link

I think there's also a spectrum though ... like, one of the positive things about "they" and people identifying as non-binary, is that it calls attention to that. There are a lot of differences in terms of "taking up space" and how much we were taught we could take up within the category of "cis-women" ... I get that a lot as a white woman interacting with BIPOC people.

And Kate, for me, I sometimes feel uncomfortable with the length of your posts, esp. with regards to fraught topics, because I often don't have time to read them all the way through, and I feel like I should do so in order to give a respectful response, and then I don't respond, and then I feel awkward? Because it's clear you're going through some heavy shit and you've been having some serious problems! And I want to be a compassionate person and show you that you are cared for and valued.

sarahell, Sunday, 16 July 2023 21:17 (nine months ago) link

I am gonna do a long-ass response to it but I'm gonna do it in the "Uncorrected Personality Traits" thread, it doesn't have anything to do with this thread particularly. :)

Kate (rushomancy), Tuesday, 18 July 2023 03:19 (eight months ago) link

Kate, you have been way more kind to quincie on this than I feel. I get why she might not like your long posts, fuck, I even get why she might feel like they're space-sucking. But to add that gendered element to it - yes, I think that's transphobic as fuck and awful. Incredibly fucking awful.

emil.y, Tuesday, 18 July 2023 12:56 (eight months ago) link

Kate, you have been way more kind to quincie on this than I feel. I get why she might not like your long posts, fuck, I even get why she might feel like they're space-sucking. But to add that gendered element to it - yes, I think that's transphobic as fuck and awful. Incredibly fucking awful.

― emil.y

i think that's a really good perspective as well and i'm glad you were able to say that! (i know that's therapy-speak, i just don't know how to express my feelings _without_ lapsing into therapy-speak haha).

that's kind of what makes it difficult to talk about this stuff in a public forum, what makes twitter such a hellsite (or made twitter such a hellsite, i guess, now apparently it's elon musk who's making twitter a hellsite. i appreciate the concept. like why do people always want to remake _good_ movies? why remake _all the king's men_, that's already a perfectly fucking good movie. why not make _escape from the bronx_? that's the way to do it. except that for all its hellishness twitter did occasionally have, ahem, _redeeming social value_. by which i mean communism.)

sorry. haven't had coffee yet. the point is, you say something and one person will be ok with it, more than ok with it, and somebody else will think it's incredibly fucking awful, and even if the question is directed at _me_ personally other people's experiences in a public forum are important! that's what i struggle with sometimes when i make myself vulnerable and choose to say things that reflect on me poorly, but are true.

well anyway i can only speak for myself and i do think i'm gonna double-down. getting that feedback _was_ emotionally difficult and made my day more challenging in the short-term, but in the long term it gave me the opportunity to say some things i'd wanted to say for a long time. like it's a paradox but transphobia actually _has_ helped me a lot. and i'm gonna start out by phrasing this in the extreme form, so i want to say up front that this _isn't_ how i feel about quincie.

all of the worst, shittiest things transphobes say about me were things that i internalized, that i believed about myself. hearing _them_ say it helped me examine those beliefs more critically. because i looked at the people saying these things and i was like, "wow, all the people who believe these things about me are incredibly terrible people. i'm not an incredibly terrible person. the people i look up to and admire don't think these things about me, in fact, they think the opposite. maybe i should listen to the people i like and not the people who are awful."

that's not the point of similarity here, the relatable thing is that i had a _whole lot_ of internalized transphobia. it was a tremendous weight i was carrying. i hated myself a lot for being trans. when other people started hating me for being trans... i know personally the weight of that hatred. i'm really happy that other people are, of their own volition, willing to carry that weight, particularly given that it's their fucking weight to begin with, not mine.

the stuff quincie said, that's stuff i've thought about myself for a long time. that's a really strong concern i've had, that i'm "acting like a man" by talking and explaining incessantly. quincie expressing that, externalizing my internal transphobia, taking on the _weight_ of it, is something i'm really grateful for. unlike with the radical transphobes, i don't think that makes her a bad person. i don't get the sense that she's "just asking questions", either. this is a space that _is_ affirming and welcoming to trans people. by asking the question she asked within that context, it really made me feel safe to address it in detail. to, uh, respond to accusations that i'm "space-sucking" by "space-sucking" some more.

---

so ok, i'm gonna get really controversial here. there's this sort of implicit assumption that trans women's goal should be to be as much like cis women as possible. and cis women are amazing, i love, respect, and admire cis women. and lust after cis women too, because, yeah, i'm very lesbian. the thing is, a lot of the shit cis women are raised with is fucking misogynist patriarchal bullshit, decades upon decades of that, and i don't view not having been directly beaten down and taught to think of myself as categorically inferior to men for decades as being a deficiency i need to remediate.

i don't think the solution here is that i need to be quieter - i think cis women need to be louder, angrier, god since last june i've _felt_ the fucking rage so many women have, and we're not supposed to feel that, only _men_ are supposed to be enraged. my favorite aunt gave me a book a couple years ago called "Burn It Down: Women Writing About Anger". this is fucking bullshit and the fucking fragile-ass _men_ are trying to say that _they're_ the ones who get to be enraged, _they're_ the ones who are being done wrong, and FUCK. THAT. one of the things that really connected with me hard last year, i talk a lot about it, is a 1994 essay by susan stryker called "My Words to Victor Frankenstein Above the Village of Chamounix: Performing Transgender Rage".

it's more complicated for me than that, as it turns out. see, the thing about my behavior being categorized as "male behavior" is that i didn't get this from men. i got it from my mom. she's a cis woman but she's also Not Like Other Women. she's one of those libfems who believes in "equality" and took that to mean "i can do anything a man can do" and put that into practice and suffered a lot for that, for being outspoken the way a man is. and also suffered because, well, she's an awful, abusive person. she's also where i got my rage. she taught me that, by abusing me. my rage _isn't_ clean. it's _justified_, we _all_ have a right to it. i have to be very, very careful with it. it's addictive to me, addictive like alcohol is to my youngest sibling. but it's something we all fucking _need_ and _deserve_ right now.

and that's another thing i admire about quincie! as much as she's calling me out for space-sucking, she's being loud, she's being outspoken, she's not conforming to how women are _supposed_ to behave, we're all supposed to get together and watch "the sisterhood of the traveling pants" and honestly i'm more of a thelma and louise kind of girl. refusing to call each other out in the name of "solidarity", that's the kind of game i played for a long time and it's not good. if we got differences, if we got distrust, i think it is both _possible_ and _important_ to name them, to name them honestly and with kindness.

and to me, that's what quincie did. to me, that's preferable to me swiping right on cis women on Her and just wondering why none of them ever seem to swipe back. i mean cis women all live with that, that fear of being _A TERF_, and that's what I really wanted to say, that for quincie to say what she said _doesn't_ make her a TERF, that these are misconceptions, prejudices even, that a lot of cis women have and are under a lot of pressure to pretend they don't have. I get that, I was raised with a lot of prejudices, and I _know_ I have prejudices, and I struggle to not be ashamed of them. Because I'm not a bad person, I was just raised with some stupid bullshit, and I don't know how to get rid of or challenge that bullshit without naming it and taking accountability for it. Which, again, is what I feel like quincie is doing here.

And by the way that's one of the reasons for my space-sucking. I do a lot of explaining things, and it _looks_ a lot like mansplaining (just like BPD _looks_ a lot like narcissism sometimes). I'm not interested in that. You can't change somebody else's mind by lecturing them. I explain things because that's how I _learn_. It's, like, _the_ most single effective method of learning. I do see it as a positive good, I want there to be more of it. Womansplaining. Not explaining as _discourse_, explaining as a form of _learning_, of challenging ourselves.

Anyway I know all that is just gonna piss more people off, with them I'm in a hole and I won't stop digging, but there is _something else_, something else I'm really wanting to get at. And I don't know how to do that without digging myself further into a hole when it comes to how they think of me.

Kate (rushomancy), Tuesday, 18 July 2023 15:04 (eight months ago) link

I explain things because that's how I _learn_. It's, like, _the_ most single effective method of learning.

I totally get this. As in, it's something I do, and it's something a number of my friends do as well. And, being on the receiving end, does make me more self-aware of how I am, and how I can be annoying, maybe?

One of my friends that does this a lot to me, I will sometimes get frustrated because he is very loquacious. And I will ask him, "Does it matter that I am here listening to you?" As in, I am present for this conversation, but it is mostly his monologue and I'm supposedly the audience, but, am I really? Or ... as the audience, do I get some agency here? Can I like, fast forward through some of it?

sarahell, Tuesday, 18 July 2023 16:21 (eight months ago) link

Need to catch up but I am glad to have been called out because I didn’t see that my comment could be interpreted as non-affirming of Kate’s gender identity. I sincerely did not mean that and really apologize for angst I caused

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Tuesday, 18 July 2023 19:27 (eight months ago) link

One of my friends that does this a lot to me, I will sometimes get frustrated because he is very loquacious. And I will ask him, "Does it matter that I am here listening to you?" As in, I am present for this conversation, but it is mostly his monologue and I'm supposedly the audience, but, am I really? Or ... as the audience, do I get some agency here? Can I like, fast forward through some of it?

― sarahell

i mean as long as the other person is clear that they don't actually need me to listen or respond i'm fine with it. my primary calls it "rubber-ducking". i guess it's something programmers do, they try to explain their code to like a rubber duck on their desk and that's how they manage. nobody actually listens with rapt attention to every single thing their partner says, right?

Kate (rushomancy), Tuesday, 18 July 2023 20:04 (eight months ago) link

three weeks pass...

What’s up with Lume deodorant … I feel like I am missing something?

sarahell, Friday, 11 August 2023 17:18 (eight months ago) link

Or am I the only one here who gets lots of ads for this product?

sarahell, Friday, 11 August 2023 17:19 (eight months ago) link

i get them too and i totally dont get it

here 1st (roxymuzak), Friday, 11 August 2023 17:56 (eight months ago) link

It’s apparently great at preventing swamp crotch

just1n3, Friday, 11 August 2023 18:09 (eight months ago) link

*sad lols*

https://imgur.com/a/P7cTAlP

Hopefully that link works

just1n3, Monday, 14 August 2023 08:33 (eight months ago) link

six months pass...

My period AND period shits AND chest congestion? Did I inadvertently offend an old Romany woman? And just as the Oscar bait started trickling into my local theaters!

Infanta Terrible (j.lu), Friday, 23 February 2024 18:37 (one month ago) link

ugh that sucks j.lu

for me the hilarity that i have been grumpy about for a while now is that oh hey guess what my fasting blood sugar jumps 20 points when i get my period because that is apparently “just a common thing that happens”

but how the fuck am i supposed to adjust for it when i’m perimenopausal and have zero chance of predicting when i’ll start anymore. 2 weeks? 4? 8? who knows weee

werewolves of laudanum (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 23 February 2024 20:08 (one month ago) link

Maybe I am late to the party so to speak but apparently there is a trendy phrase “girl math” that makes me livid when I am reminded of it

sarahell, Friday, 23 February 2024 23:45 (one month ago) link

yes hate it

werewolves of laudanum (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 23 February 2024 23:54 (one month ago) link

oh my god yes, I get infuriated

kinder, Saturday, 24 February 2024 12:21 (one month ago) link

I have to google that but I've been putting it off because I am sure it will give me the rage

Is it like "girl dinner" which is also awful unless you are referring to like a 5 year old's chicken tenders

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Saturday, 24 February 2024 17:11 (one month ago) link

pretty much

werewolves of laudanum (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 24 February 2024 17:30 (one month ago) link

Relieved to not come across most of these trendy words unless my students bring it up. Or I see it on Ilx.

Piggy Lepton (La Lechera), Saturday, 24 February 2024 17:59 (one month ago) link

Lol … chicken tenders with a place setting for a stuffed toy and the family pet … otherwise ughhh

sarahell, Saturday, 24 February 2024 23:01 (one month ago) link


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