Grant Morrison S/D

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Well, so many threads seem to circle back to him anyway...

Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Friday, 12 March 2004 19:22 (sixteen years ago) link

S: Doom Patrol, the De Sade issues of The Invisibles
D: the rest of The Invisibles, Sebastian O

Chris F. (servoret), Saturday, 13 March 2004 09:35 (sixteen years ago) link

he is not uniformly brilliant, but lots of people think he is.

Zenith is really good, probably my favourite thing of his. What I read of "The New Adventures of Adolf Hitler" was great too.

DV (dirtyvicar), Sunday, 14 March 2004 15:09 (sixteen years ago) link

Is Adolf still available anywhere?

Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Sunday, 14 March 2004 19:48 (sixteen years ago) link

Zenith was a disappointment to me after hearing from so many people that it was their favorite work of his. It was interesting to see how much it presaged the action in The Invisibles, though.

Chuck, I have Adolf as a PDF file on slsk if you want to download it; my user name is "servoret".

Chris F. (servoret), Monday, 15 March 2004 03:20 (sixteen years ago) link

DV's first sentence seems reversed - I don't think that many people think that everything he does is brilliant (though it is).

The rest of the discussion is here:

Grant Morrison: S&D

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 15 March 2004 10:41 (sixteen years ago) link

S: Most of the Invisibles until the end, Flex Mentallo, Mystery Play, Kill Your Boyfriend

More 'meh' but still enjoyable: The Filth, Arkham Asylum, his Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight miniseries, his Fantastic Four mini

Jordan (Jordan), Monday, 15 March 2004 14:59 (sixteen years ago) link

Oh well, but anyway:

S: Doom Patrol (except around issues 40-50); the Hellblazer two-shot; Gothic; Animal Man; Recent New X-Men
D: Invisibles, "Disco Dad" tendencies

Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Monday, 15 March 2004 21:07 (sixteen years ago) link

Oh, duh, the whole New X-Men run is classic with the possible except of the last few issues (we'll see how the final one turns out this week I guess).

Jordan (Jordan), Monday, 15 March 2004 21:22 (sixteen years ago) link

You don't like the last few?

Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 01:18 (sixteen years ago) link

They bear the criticism that they're not about the X-Men, they're about this bunch of people 150 years from now. They're more Grant Morrison, Fount of Ideas than anything else. I'd compare them (favourably) to 1602.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 11:18 (sixteen years ago) link

"Kill Your Boyfriend" is rather good.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 11:44 (sixteen years ago) link

It just seems like not much actually HAPPENED for the first three issues of the arc, just some action in a sort of generic post-apocalyptic world. They could totally be justified by the reveal in the last issue, if it's good, but aren't that interesting on their own.

Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 14:59 (sixteen years ago) link

Don't really disagree with much said above. I'm quite enjoying the 'final' New X-Men thread, but still am puzzling why since it has nothing to do with 'proper' continuity. Maybe he's just trying to outdo himself after the Xorn/Magneto plot, which was brilliant apart from Wolverine surviving crashing into the sun...

S: Kill Your Boyfriend, Flex Mentallo, Doom Patrol, Animal Man, Zenith, New Adventures Of Adolf Hitler
Only Worth Buying For The Artwork: The Filth, Arkham Asylum, Mystery Play
D: Marvel Boy

The Invisibles, much as I like bits of it, is too patchy to fall into any of the categories.

aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 16:48 (sixteen years ago) link

oh god, Arkham Asylum, thanks for reminding me of that stinker.

DV (dirtyvicar), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 17:48 (sixteen years ago) link

Arkham Asylum can't be complete dud with McKean doing the art.

O.Leee.B. (Leee), Wednesday, 17 March 2004 01:54 (sixteen years ago) link

Maybe so, but it isn't worth buying new, that's for sure. I liked JLA: Earth 2 a lot, but that's another one not really worth buying in hardback, I think. Did they ever come out with a TPB for that one?

Chris F. (servoret), Wednesday, 17 March 2004 04:03 (sixteen years ago) link

Yeah, I've got the TPB of JLA: Earth 2 . Nice, but skirts close to "worth it for the art" territory.

There's a handful on ebay at the moment in the US at around $5, plus a Frank Quitely signed Dynamic Forces hardback for 10 Euros...

aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Wednesday, 17 March 2004 09:25 (sixteen years ago) link

Doom Patrol, JLA, Flex Mentallo, Zenith Bk 3, Hitler, Animal Man = all grebt.

Other Zenith Bks, New X-Men, Invisibles = definitely worth reading.

The rest of his stuff is patchy, still good compared to most people.

Did anything ever 'come' of Bizarre Boys?

And did he do Bible John? Or was that John Smith?

Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Thursday, 18 March 2004 12:03 (sixteen years ago) link

one year passes...
I read the first two Doom Patrol trades over the weekend, they're great!

His character work here is really fantastic and heartfelt, it seems to me. The liberal arts drop-out "-ism" dropping gets a little tiresome, but who am I to complain if it brings with it monkeys vs. robots and brain-in-a-jar vs. brain-in-a-jar?!

Jordan (Jordan), Monday, 4 April 2005 15:14 (fifteen years ago) link

one month passes...
I *loved* his Doom Patrol when it first started coming out, and I still have a deep and abiding affection for the series and, for that matter, his work as a whole. DP was a big big formative influence on me as a child (I think I would have been 11 when I started reading it, pastors being flattened by falling refrigerators and all), and it was all for the better, I think.

I have to take back what I said about The Invisibles and Sebastian O up top. Andrew is right, I think, in his claim re: uniform brilliance. Everything makes sense, seen in the context of Grant's work as a whole. I think the system of "magick" that he's worked out through his books is both valid and totally genius as a method of working out and disseminating a deeply personal mythology. It's amazingly lucky for us as readers that he's been able to popularize his work through the medium of mainstream comics.

Chris F. (servoret), Sunday, 8 May 2005 07:20 (fifteen years ago) link

if he were a novelist would we like him?

tom west (thomp), Sunday, 8 May 2005 22:22 (fifteen years ago) link

I almost certainly wouldnt read him.

Tom (Groke), Sunday, 8 May 2005 22:35 (fifteen years ago) link

If he were to become one now, you mean? I dunno what would be the point of that. I think he's adapted his approach to fit comics. His "Pop Magick" article was a pretty good read, though-- illuminating as to his approach to and intent of his work, for me at least.

Chris F. (servoret), Monday, 9 May 2005 05:27 (fifteen years ago) link

I have Strange Biscuits, his collection of .. stuff. It's not very good, the short stories have interesting ideas, but obviously spend too much time getting them onto the page. The plays are complete rub.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 9 May 2005 09:53 (fifteen years ago) link

He has a novel in the works y'know

(he's been saying so for ten years but apparently has written some of it now)

kit brash (kit brash), Monday, 9 May 2005 10:55 (fifteen years ago) link

I finished reading the last Animal Man trade over the weekend so I have giant warm feelings toward Grant.

I am secretly glad he has never come out with this novel because I do not want to hate him for it.

Jordan (Jordan), Monday, 9 May 2005 14:43 (fifteen years ago) link

Anyone ever read Alan Moore's book?

Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Monday, 9 May 2005 16:52 (fifteen years ago) link

Voices in the Fire? Yes, it's GREAT. The first story is intentionally very hard going.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 9 May 2005 21:32 (fifteen years ago) link

So the problem with Grant writing a novel is that maybe it would be too self-indulgent of him? (You could make a case that a tendency for self-indulgence shows up in his comics work, beyond the merely personal aspect of it and the sheer ballsiness of constructing/disseminating a personal mythology in front of an audience of many thousands.) Also because it would be too much of an immature effort on his part? I.e., his influences who *have* written novels-- Burroughs, Anton Wilson, et al.-- would show up too much on the page? He's really free to share his influences directly on the page in comics-- look at Doom Patrol for great examples of that, where it seems like every story title is taken from a lyric or title of a song by one of his favorite musicians, and lots of direct quoting happens otherwise in dialogue and so forth. I suppose in a novel he wouldn't be as free to do that, and that would combine with the above tendency to really hurt his prose. Was his Cthulhu story any good?

Chris F. (servoret), Tuesday, 10 May 2005 05:36 (fifteen years ago) link

Hey did Vimanarama issue #3 ever come out? WTF?

Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 16:33 (fifteen years ago) link

I don't think so! But I thought someone here (Douglas? Andrew?) was talking about it like it had!

David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 16:47 (fifteen years ago) link

It's out this week or next, I think. Yay.

Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 16:51 (fifteen years ago) link

By which i mean JUNE 15TH

Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 16:57 (fifteen years ago) link

Chuck, that wasn't very nice.

David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 17:00 (fifteen years ago) link

I can't flat-out call anything he's done a dud, since I've been interested in at least some aspect of all of it. Still..

Classic(ish): Doom Patrol, Flex Mentallo, The Invisibles (I'm the only volume 3 fan). Half the ideas in New X-Men, when it didn't get bogged down by rushed art or half-assed ideas with the Shiar. The Filth is good as a collection of ideas and reads better the second time through. It's part of Grant's "feel sorry for my dead cat" genre. We3 is necessary, when collected I hope it sells a bajillion copies. Marvel Boy is carried on half story, half art and is practically a blueprint for the style of Marvel's Ultimate line of comics.

Close to dud: Arkham Asylum, Mystery Play
Ambivalent: St. Swithin's Day, Seaguy.

I still haven't read any of his mainstream DC superhero stuff! Animal Man is the closest I've been. Any suggestions on anything that's particularly outstanding?

mike h. (mike h.), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 17:24 (fifteen years ago) link

I don't think you're the only volume 3 fan. Unless you mean that you think it's the best one.

DC Superheroes: No point in pissing about, go directly to JLA. The first collection is called 'Brave New World', I think.

Or JLA Earth2, the graphic novel drawn by Frank Quitely.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 17:45 (fifteen years ago) link

It was May when I last looked! And then I looked again. And it wasn't. Boo.

Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 21:21 (fifteen years ago) link

I love "feel sorry for my dead cat genre".

If only Seaguy #3 wasn't so horribly dark, I would have given in to everyone in the world. My partner now refuses to read any Grant Morrison after she read that. If I do end up interviewing Cam3ron St3wart, I'm going to dictaphone record him saying, "Hey Sheila, Chubby is really still alive."

Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 21:25 (fifteen years ago) link

"given it", sorry

Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 21:26 (fifteen years ago) link

SLAPPER

The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 21:44 (fifteen years ago) link

Animal Man is totally "feel sorry for my dead cat", but at least he personally admits that it's exactly that in the comic.

Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 22:09 (fifteen years ago) link

It seems like he's always working on the same themes and ideas, and of course out of his own personal history, so to reject any of his stuff out of hand as a dud is to make a mistake, I think, if you want to understand where he's coming from. Even so, of course, some stuff doesn't read as well as it might, and some of the lesser works are probably redundant if you've read the major ones (i.e., Animal Man (maybe), DP, Invisibles, and The Filth, I'm thinking, but I could be wrong). And his stuff is deep, like, so deep I sometimes wonder whether I'm just making up interpretations that fit the text or if it's all intended to be there, subconsciously or not. And I'm not just talking about semi-obvious stuff like the tripartite mind thing in Doom Patrol (Rebis="male" and "female" intelligences combined with a third "vital" force that act as one unit, while also being the left brained partner in a trio consisting also of right brained Jane (also fractured mentally into discrete and initially competing modules) and corpus callosium pragmatic Cliff (who's literally only a brain, aliennated from the mechanism that forms his body)... all balanced against the opposing trio of lefty arrogant Chief, righty compassionate Josh, and primal conduit Dorothy). There's stuff like the "Their number is always 5" comment from DP, the necessity of which (5 = the number symbolizing "Man" numerologically, but why, really?)I had always wondered about until I realized that it would of course be the Hand's number also (and by implication it's the Invisibles' as well). And the importance of 5 equalling the hand of "Man" works both with the Invisibles with their blank badge and their "Which side are you on?" question as well as with the decision made by Feely/Slade at the end of The Filth (which equates to the decisions that Dane/Jack makes as well, and also Dorothy in regards to her "friends" and the Candlemaker). And that decision is of course to take responsibility and agency over one's actions for oneself, and not play the pawn in a game between two opposing sides that don't have one's best interests in heart (back to the whole tripartite thing again, and the moving beyond dualism thing from the aliens story in DP). Was that the "secret of the universe" that was supposed to be revealed at the end of The Invisibles, or not? You be the judge.

OK, that's enough rambling on like a mad nutter. But anyway, I don't think that anything he does is bollocks at all, even though some parts of his work (like feeling sorry for dead cats) are perhaps less symbolically significant than others. There's a doctoral thesis in there somewhere for whoever wants to be the first Grant Morrison scholar in Cultural Studies, I tell you.

Chris F. (servoret), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:30 (fifteen years ago) link

OK, one more thing about GM and then I'll stop hogging this thread.

"All I want is the answer to one simple question before I run screaming back to the BUGHOUSE: Is this REAL or isn't it?"

I think there's a tension about Grant's use of "magick" that shows up in his work repeatedly. Not just in the statement quoted above, but in characters like the rock star in Flex Mentallo, and of course Feely/Slade in The Filth as well as the convergence that Grant claims happened between writing The Invisibles (and writing himself into it as an idealized character) and the events that happened in his real life at the same time. The question is whether "magick" is real or whether it's shite, and I'm willing to bet that, using the tripartite thing, it's neither-- it's really a use of A. Moore's "idea space" from Promethea, i.e., memetics, i.e. as the Chief puts it when confronted with The Book with No Title, "It might help to consider the Zen KOAN, 'First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is.'" So of course, it's both real as well as unreal, as Jane puts it to Cliff two pages before the page in DP #21 with the quotes given above- it works functionally, but to think it works because of some "magickal" power or essence is dumb essentialism, so no, it's not real also. Stuff like this plus the "Buddhismo" bad interpretation of Buddhism from The Filth and the similarly wrong one-toothed masturbating Buddha of pleasure thing from The Invisibles makes me think that Grant is on to something deep and he knows it, too.

OK, sorry to bother you guys with all this, but I thought it and felt like I had to write it out for someone to read if they cared. And now I'm late for my movie, so I've got to go. If anyone else here has thoughts on all this, I'd like to read them.

Chris F. (servoret), Thursday, 12 May 2005 22:52 (fifteen years ago) link

GM is probably one of my favorite writers, in or outside of comics. Like a lot of people on this board (I'm guessing) I'm one of those people who think that everything of his is worth reading (his badly executed interesting ideas are still interesting), but recognize that a lot of his early stuff (animal man and DP) are pretty sophomoric in a "hey look, I just heard about postmodernism" sort of way. (I say this still owning a lot of those issues and the trades; the end of animal man has got to be the best "ending" of a series ever).

okay some questions:

(1) I don't have flex mentallo. is this really his best thing ever? Same with Zenith.

(2) are they going to collect the remaining doom patrol issues?

(3) what do you guys think of this whole magic thing? Although it's interesting (like that interview where GM says he could beat up Alan Moore in a magic war), I can't always take its BSy, DISINFO tone that seriously. But for a lot of people, that's what they seem to like best.

(4) People who hate GM--why? I had an hr long discussion (i.e. "argument") with my comic shop owner about this and it seemed like the exact things he hated about GM (discursiveness, wackiness, fucking around with conventions) were the things I liked. My impression is that people who don't like GM are precisely the people who are "real" comic book fans--conservative continuity hounds who rightly note that GM is screwing up his continuity facts and doing his best not to repeat the satisfyingly boring old Darkseid-takes-over-earth story. I told my sister (who read the Kubert/Lobdell X-men out of a crush on Gambit) about Morrisson's Xmen (Beast as Beast from Beauty in the Beast; Beast as gay; etc.) and she said "Those people who loved X-Men before must hate this." Am I wrong?

(5) GM seems like he's in this intermediate tier--famous and obscure in all the wrong places. Fanboys like X men and JLA (I think Rock of the Ages is the best paced superhero comic I've ever read) but don't really know about the Invisibles, but neither the snobby I-only-read-comics-I've-heard-about-in-the-new-yorker crowd or the Sandman franchise Gaiman fanclub really know about his work either. Gaiman once said in an interview that GM would be as famous as him (and invisibles as well read as Sandman) if only the invisibles had been collected earlier. He predicted that once it was in book form, there'd be a Sandman-like GM worshipping. But this hasn't happened, as far as I know. Is it because Sandman caters to pre-existing niche crowds (like goths)? Or because Sandman has sweet life-affirming stories, fairy tales about love and death, and Invisibles has the giant floating afterlife head of John Lennon, Archon conquerors in 2012, and Russian anarchist buddhas? And The Filth isn't exactly the kind of comic you take home to your mom. It's possible that Sandman is a richer, more flawless work, but Invisibles is way more relentlessly interesting, intense, and challenging. what do you think?

kenchen, Saturday, 14 May 2005 18:00 (fifteen years ago) link

(1) I have Flex, and I've read bootleg CBR copies of Zenith a couple of times, which isn't exactly ideal. I think Zenith probably read a lot better when it came out and all the material was stuff that was being explored by Morrison for the first time. It presages the Elder Gods stuff from The Invisibles in a way that's more clearly a takeoff on Lovecraft, delves into some utopian superhero stuff, and the character of Zenith himself is a fun anti-hero, who keeps getting out of scraps because he's not as dumb as he pretends to be and has no pretensions toward any cause other than having a good time. If I had grown up on that series instead of Doom Patrol like some of the British posters here evidently have I'd probably think it was the bee's knees too. I still think it's pretty good, and I'd like to get my hands on the originals someday.

Flex is interesting in that it presages JLA and The Filth with the final issue with the invisible superheroes that have gone fictional/memetic in order to protect humanity. I guess it's also a loving tribute to reading superhero comics during the Silver Age when one could feel that superheroes were a force that existed to protect normal folks and the peaceful mundanity of their everyday lives. That's a theme that comes up in Morrison just as much as the radical utopian stuff does, it seems (maybe part and parcel of the whole superhero concept, but not necessarily--look at the earliest Superman stuff for radical superheroism in action): The Doom Patrol, The Invisibles (arguably?), The Hand all have this function of protecting the prosaic from incursions of the irrational (it took me a while to get the pun of "anti-person"-- anti-persons are always megalomaniacs trying to rock the boat 44r0nHz-style, they're anti-people-in-general). I dunno, I guess if you go through the personal transformation advocated in the end of Flex, you've done what Morrison's trying to prompt you to do through The Invisibles, so maybe Flex is the best thing he's ever done 'cause he gets where he's going in only 4 issues?

(2)Dunno, since all the subsequent issues have Flex Mentallo in them I thought it had the same problem with DC wimping out over the Charles Atlas plagarism that collecting the mini-series does.

(3)I dunno how seriously Grant takes it! Look at the end of The Filth, which is really ambiguous over how seriously we're supposed to take Greg/Ned's adventures into magick-shiteland a la the ending of Videodrome. Then there's the "Pop Magick" thing, where he goes on about how being a magician is all about pretending to be the person that you really want to be, and how picking fictional characters as your personal deities is probably the best choice (like Alan Moore worshipping whatever Roman fraud he claims to worship). And his "I got abducted by aliens who told me the secret of the universe because I went off to get abducted by aliens" thing. I guess, to the extent that I'm not agnostic about it, that I just see it as memes/Joseph Campbell-style symbollogy, and I don't sweat the fact that I'm not up on the hidden meanings of all the Crowley-derived magick stuff that Morrison and Moore are up on. I don't think that literal "magic powers" are what Morrison's aiming for his readership to attain, that rather it's really a rejection of dogmatism and rigid belief structures that he's after. The pretensions of the "magickal workings" crowd actually annoy me-- I think that stuff's outdated and can be too much like wish-fulfillment fantasies. I don't really think that the universe is so cuddly that you can get anything you want from it if you just ask for it hard enough-- I think that way lies madness, and that Morrison explores this somewhat in The Filth, with its potentially psychotic protagonist. (And hey, look at the last issue of Doom Patrol, where Grant seems to argue that, yes, literal belief in this stuff is crackers, but that letting "reality" kill your soul isn't a viable option either.)

(4)No, I agree. I think they hate him because he's got his own personality and he's working on his own themes all the time. He's not into producing soap-opera product to feed these people's addictions-- he's trying to subvert those very habits in them by introducing his material to these people, and they pick up on that and hate him for it. They don't want to be challenged by this shit-- they treat comic books as comfort food, and find some sort of solace in the way that they can master the "facts" of the material and construct order out of comic-book flotsam in a way that they can't do in their real lives. Polar opposite of Morrison's intentions-- he seems to want to use this fictional material to inform his (and others') real lives, not try to make the fictional into some sort of reality that can be lived in as an escape (although he shows nostalgia for this type of escapism in Flex among other places, the point of that series is to move beyond this as a person).

(5) Yeah, I think The Sandman is way more middlebrow and unchallenging, comfort food style, than The Invisibles. The personification of death is the cuddliest character in the series, for crying out loud. And at the same time, it's a lot less slapdash than Invisibles, reads better, has better production values and better art. The Invisibles reads like somewhere along the way Morrison ripped up the original plan that he'd made for the series and just started cramming that material in where he could, meanwhile recycling good bits of dialogue from his earlier series (the "stop a conversation stone dead" thing, among others), and getting very seat-of-the-pants in his writing style, which started annoying me in a serious way during Volume 2 and led me to literally throw away the last two series worth of comics after I'd bought them (sort of a mistake-- I should look at the last series again sometime). I think that Sandman was built to last as a literary enterprise, whereas The Invisibles was just written to explore and disseminate some of the material Morrison was working on/up to at that point (the "secret of the universe" shaman thing that I alluded to in an earlier post and that is also found in Flex) and is ultimately disposable in a way that Sandman is not (supposedly touching on great truths in a mythopoetic way also, but in a more classical fashion). The Invisibles is also more of a explicitly personal work than The Sandman (at least I think it is-- as far as I know Gaiman didn't write himself into his comic directly as a character, etc.) so it's harder for it to find a mass audience, sort of like Burroughs compared to Kerouac (who, yeah, writes semi-autobiographically in On the Road, but writes about the mythology of the open road, etc., easy stuff for Americans to sympathize with compared to Burroughs's personal issues with homosexuality, drug addiction metaphors, paranoid fantasies about social control, con men, etc.)

Chris F. (servoret), Monday, 16 May 2005 22:55 (fifteen years ago) link

Re. Zenith: it's written as i) a wham-bam action story in classic 2000AD style, every episode 5-6 pages with a socking great cliffhanger. ii) an answer to the question "What would British superheroes be like?". Second to Pat Mills' stuff before he went loopy it's probably the best example of i) and it's definitely the best ever treatment of ii). But it's not deep or nuffink.

People don't like Grant Morrison because while he takes comics as seriously as they do he doesn't take the characters as seriously. A lot of his stuff is as openly sentimental as the biggest superhero soap but the sentiment comes from his and your relationship to the material, not from the character interactions themselves. GM's characters tend to be *very* broad, New X-Men is probably the time he's tried hardest to 'do' characterisation and even then it basically falls to bits halfway through the run.

He doesn't have the serious following of a Gaiman because he can tell superhero stories very well indeed and loves doing it: people who distrust superheroes don't like that. Maybe an Iain Banks/Iain M Banks rebranding would have helped, who knows.

Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 17 May 2005 08:55 (fifteen years ago) link

Tom OTM at start and end, but I'm not sure about

A lot of his stuff is as openly sentimental as the biggest superhero soap but the sentiment comes from his and your relationship to the material, not from the character interactions themselves.

Do you mean that it's broader 'heroes are brilliant stuff' rather than overly emotional characters? JLA seemed like a collection of superhero firefighters at times (Green Lantern excepted)

New X-Men is probably the time he's tried hardest to 'do' characterisation and even then it basically falls to bits halfway through the run.

Doom Patrol is down this end of his range as well, and I think it work brilliantly (or I think that I think this - hurry up with the reprints, Vertigo!). Cliff and Jane anyway, if falls away a bit after from that (mostly for plot reasons).

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 17 May 2005 09:18 (fifteen years ago) link

Cliff and Jane works because it's two completely fucked-up people who get closer slowly and obliquely, and yes it's good characterisation but the characters are so far out that it still lacks the 'identification' thing that Marvel brought to comics.

The JLA thing - the big sentimental moments in that are huge saves-the-day widescreen stuff, which yes is a third category of sentimentality but still isn't really much to do with character interaction.

Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 17 May 2005 09:26 (fifteen years ago) link

nearest thing Zenith has to a subtext is something like "look-where-the-idealism-of-the-60s-got-us" but this mostly gets pushed aside so that morrison can play superheroes

morrison's 'position': does he cultivate it? can you ever imagine him actually escaping it?

i don't really read for characterisation (or at least i certainly don't read comics for characterisation) so when i actually find a character interesting often as not it is a broad type (e.g. i find morrison's version of the beast GRATE but anna karenina a bore)

tom west (thomp), Tuesday, 17 May 2005 11:16 (fifteen years ago) link

i can't find the new x-men thread i was going to go on about characterisation in! oh well

tom west (thomp), Tuesday, 17 May 2005 11:27 (fifteen years ago) link

Which supehero writers can do characterisation, though?

I can think of maybe Peter David, DeMatteis, BK Vaughn, Bendis, Alan Grant...

Okay, that's quite a few, but still...

Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Tuesday, 17 May 2005 13:22 (fifteen years ago) link

Well, Alan Moore writes superhero comics. Is he different? Is it a matter of intellectual street cred? Though come to think about, he's not exactly a cottage industry in the same way...

I don't think GM is bad at characterization, I just think that (1) it doesn't interest him and (2) comics are a serial medium so characterization doesn't work the same way as in a film or novel. So (1) his interest is clearly in creating action movies of ideas and probably plots and thinks this way too. (Are there enough ideas-per-page, etc.?) If ideas = intellectual, then there is a way that characterization is anti-intellectual, in that it requires plodding plot construction. In this way, GM is similar to Kafka, Borges, and Murakami, in that he's less interested in the literary homework and more in just getting right to the metaphysical candy. (2) The problem with serial comics (I might be plagiarizing this from a hellblazer forum) is that the protagonist is really a shared convention, so you can't really change him that much w/o abandoning the conventions of the series. In this sense, GM does great characterization, but it's a serial (or comics) specific form of characterization, where charactization means people being always themselves: the people are all unchangeable icons. In that sense, his Batman, Lex Luthor, Jean, Cyclops, Wolverine, white queen, etc., for example, seem to perfectly embody their archetypal selves. But they never change and we never really know their interior life. Since superheroes are so uncomplicated in the first place, I'm pretty happy with this Silver Age version of charactization; I think when people don't do this (like some of the people you mentioned, such as peter david) characterization just ends up meaning mundane stories filled with unfunny jokes. GM's way seems more like mythology: we don't know the characters aside from what they do in the story, but we have a pretty good idea of what kinds of things they would and wouldn't do.

That said, there's usually the obligatory "John Constantine goes to the bar or confronts his dead father" issue and GM hasn't written anything like that as far as I know. I think the problem is that his emphasis on ideas makes him a sort of shallow writer, in the sense that he doesn't ever give his characters texture or subtext. Usually, I love that, b/c the stories end up sleek and graceful. But it can make his characters too generic (king mob and fantomex).


(Thanks for the great posts--especially chris!)

kenchen, Tuesday, 17 May 2005 15:02 (fifteen years ago) link

I dunno about this NXM talk about "archetypal" revisiting - GM did a LOT of work re: Beast & Cyclops & White Queen, 3 characters that (to my knowledge) were mostly treated as stereotypes of themselves - Cyclops = "he's lantern-jawed and a leader!"; Beast = "he's smart and furry!"; White Queen = "she's wicked and wears a bustiere as regular clothing!" Even w/ Jean Grey, turning her from a super-powered dud into a sympathetic and caring megalomaniac.

If I'm restating something from before, forgive me (esp. Ken, as this might be what he's getting at), but GM's knack for characterization seems to be his ability to get at charcter details while (or by) painting in these broad archetypal strokes. cf. those moments in JLA when the universe is going to shit and Batman has this one line that embodies his Batmanness (as GM sees it) so perfectly while at the same time not distracting from the grandeur of the moment happening around Batman's one line. Or, hell, that line from Emma Frost near the start of his NXM run - something like "The whole world is watching; we must be nothing less than fabulous." That's her right there.

As for continuity-related boggins, I think some of it (the unintentional stuff) has been publically classified by GM as communication breakdowns between Marvel editors and him, like the bit in "Return to Weapon X" where Sebastian Shaw talks about reading minds.

David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 17 May 2005 15:16 (fifteen years ago) link

In this sense, GM does great characterization, but it's a serial (or comics) specific form of characterization, where charactization means people being always themselves.

Otm

Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Tuesday, 17 May 2005 16:54 (fifteen years ago) link

three months pass...
Pay my telephone bills
Pay my automobills
Pay my head wax bills

David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 6 September 2005 14:10 (fourteen years ago) link

not short of cash though is he, our boy grant?

Slumpman (Slump Man), Tuesday, 6 September 2005 14:47 (fourteen years ago) link

So, uh, what was GM's contribution to this?

Huk-L (Huk-L), Tuesday, 6 September 2005 14:49 (fourteen years ago) link

Writing a treatment for a series of interlocking storylines involving Angel Robbie, Devil Robbie, Naked Robbie, and Gorilla Grodd?

Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 6 September 2005 15:00 (fourteen years ago) link

Gorilla Grodd is revealed to be Gary Barlow in disguise.

O'so Krispie (Ex Leon), Tuesday, 6 September 2005 15:11 (fourteen years ago) link

I seem to remember RW crashing a GM signing in LA.

Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Tuesday, 6 September 2005 16:50 (fourteen years ago) link

"crashing"

kit brash (kit brash), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 02:14 (fourteen years ago) link

so i've never read any morrison - should i start with one of the doom patrol books?

J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 05:05 (fourteen years ago) link

you could do much worse!

(but make it the first one)

kit brash (kit brash), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 08:14 (fourteen years ago) link

I'd say start with Invisibles. The first volume (collected in the first three trades, I think) is ace, but be prepared for a decline in quality halfway through the second.

chap who would dare to thwart the revolution (chap), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 11:40 (fourteen years ago) link

i recently finally read the invisibles in full (having read bits & pieces earlier, years ago)... i mostly liked it but boy does it ever spiral into wtfness.

s1ocki (slutsky), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 12:23 (fourteen years ago) link

I am one of those rare people who thinks that the first couple of books of The Invisibles are pretty weak (if necessary to understand the later stuff) but that it keeps getting better and better as it goes along, and that the end is unbelievably brilliant.

Douglas (Douglas), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 14:25 (fourteen years ago) link

I'd like to read it, but the main character (King Mobius?) has such a nerd's-wet-dream-of-cool-look, it's always put me off.

Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 15:35 (fourteen years ago) link

haha

s1ocki (slutsky), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 21:49 (fourteen years ago) link

Williams was indeed at that signing/talk/thingy. I didn't recognize him at first. He looks so much taller on TV...

re: INVISIBLES, I thought the beginning was great, got a little flabby in the middle and shaped up nicely at the end. And Chuck, the whole point of King Mob was to be a wet dream of cool. But it's okay, he gets better at the end.

Matt Maxwell (Matt M.), Thursday, 8 September 2005 14:25 (fourteen years ago) link

I loved the Invisibles, though I read the whole of it before I turned 20 years old, and I did all of my re-readings before I turned 21; now I'm 25 and the trouble is I loved it so much that I'm afraid of going back to it and finding it dissappointing. But it's a great mind-opener, to say the least.

I'd say Doom Patrol or Animal Man are the best starting points, but I might be biased because that's where I started.

iodine (iodine), Thursday, 8 September 2005 16:09 (fourteen years ago) link

I read all of INVISIBLES when I was far older than that, mostly for the first time, too. Held up in spite of that. Now, SCOTT PILGRIM, on the other hand...

I'd agree that DOOM PATROL is the best place to start with Morrison. It stats out as a semi-traditional superhero work, but doesn't stay there for very long at all. Morrison's kinda tough to sell to non-superhero readers, as a lot of his best work has been firmly set in that genre/trope/whatever.

Matt Maxwell (Matt M.), Thursday, 8 September 2005 16:26 (fourteen years ago) link

I would de-recommend The Invisibles, JD - some of my least-favourite Morrison ever.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 10 September 2005 11:09 (fourteen years ago) link

I'll re-recommend it then:) It's basically the main Grant Morrison story, that all the others are chipped off.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Saturday, 10 September 2005 15:51 (fourteen years ago) link

Can I rederecommend it then? Or dererecommend or something...? (Andrew is right - I'm sure it's the one Grant would most wish anyone to read - but I still don't like it all that much.)

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 10 September 2005 16:05 (fourteen years ago) link

SO MANY better places to start than Invisibles

kit brash (kit brash), Saturday, 10 September 2005 21:06 (fourteen years ago) link

Is his full run on doom patrol fully collected by now?? i have money coming my way and i want to sort of go nuts on a whole series

dave k, Saturday, 10 September 2005 21:32 (fourteen years ago) link

I don't think so, but they are bringing them out. I think they're only a few volumes in, but I might be out of touch.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 10 September 2005 21:49 (fourteen years ago) link

I think they are in the middle of the whole thing. Next volume should be the trickiest one: Flex Mentallo, My Greenest Adventure, etc.

I read all of INVISIBLES when I was far older than that, mostly for the first time, too. Held up in spite of that.

Sooooo glad to read that! Someday I might gather the courage to go back to it...

iodine (iodine), Saturday, 10 September 2005 22:53 (fourteen years ago) link

Destroy: I wouldn't really destroy anything by Grant because I agree with Chris F., for better or worse, all of his works have something to add to the big picture.

But if I was forced to say at least one thing I could do without, that would most probaby be his Spawn mini.

And, yeah, Arkham Asylum hasn't aged well either.

iodine (iodine), Saturday, 10 September 2005 23:17 (fourteen years ago) link

so should i just start at the beginning of his run on doompatrol then? his three-issue run on spawn was the first stuff of his i read - well before i had heard of him; i thought of him as just a fillin - and it was pretty rub, but the art was pretty good,

dave k, Saturday, 10 September 2005 23:40 (fourteen years ago) link

This is the first I've heard of the Spawn thing!

I'm reading Doom Patrol now as the trades come out, and loving it.

Jordan (Jordan), Sunday, 11 September 2005 01:34 (fourteen years ago) link

He just did an unheralded fill-in run with Capullo on the regular title, within a year of the four "guest star" issues (maybe 16-18, to the others' 8-11?). As unmemorable as most of Moore's multifarous Spawn series.

kit brash (kit brash), Sunday, 11 September 2005 05:21 (fourteen years ago) link

I remember him telling me about it - they paid him an absolute fucking fortune, over £100,000 I believe he said, and he did the work in one day.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, 11 September 2005 09:08 (fourteen years ago) link

I don't agree completely with Arkham Asylum, I read it recently and I think it's pretty good. It's something weird for Morrison, because it's him doing all the "grim n gritty Batman" that followed the DKR but it's okey. I agree that is far from his best work, but even middle of the road Morrison is better than most anything else.

And I have to re-read Invisibles complete someday.

Amadeo (Amadeo G.), Monday, 12 September 2005 04:43 (fourteen years ago) link

sigh, i wish i had lots of spending money, so i could buy something like the complete invisibles, which i don't think i'll love based on the first tpb but am certainly curious about how it all turns out

dave k, Monday, 12 September 2005 05:13 (fourteen years ago) link

I'm surprised no one has mentioned We3 on this thread yet. I'm a big Morrison fan, but I was very pleased to see him cut back on his wordiness and stick to a tight story arc, as opposed to the babbling sprawl of the Invisibles.

elmo (allocryptic), Monday, 12 September 2005 20:22 (fourteen years ago) link

Well that's because everybody loves We3 by default (me included)

iodine (iodine), Tuesday, 13 September 2005 15:14 (fourteen years ago) link

http://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/3amcontent/tm_objectid=16150717%26method=full%26siteid=94762-name_page.html

ROB'S ON ANOTHER PLANET
Jessica Callan, Eva Simpson And Caroline Hedley

ROBBIE Williams is expecting a Close Encounter of the Third Kind.

The 31-year-old singer reckons an extra-terrestrial invasion is inevitable, saying: "I've been dreaming every night about UFOs, every night. I can't wait to go to sleep because my dreams have been so brilliant.

"I think they are definitely on their way, seriously. Mark my words. From now until 2012 - watch out, kids."

Haven't we already seen this somewhere?

iodine (iodine), Tuesday, 20 September 2005 13:04 (fourteen years ago) link

Grant you bad man.

Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 20 September 2005 13:09 (fourteen years ago) link

I've just finished re-reading The Filth, and I still don't know quite what to make of it. There's some stunning imagery (the giant sperm, the desert of dead skin) and memorable characters (Slade/Feely, that space monkey), but it quite often veers into prog rock album cover territory, and everyone talks in post-modern slogans.

chap who would dare to thwart the revolution (chap), Tuesday, 20 September 2005 14:42 (fourteen years ago) link

If only Seaguy #3 wasn't so horribly dark, I would have given in to everyone in the world. My partner now refuses to read any Grant Morrison after she read that.

We killed Chubby by not buying enough of issues of Seaguy to ensure the whole story gets told.

DV (dirtyvicar), Tuesday, 20 September 2005 16:19 (fourteen years ago) link

Leave me out of that "we", maestro-- I bought the series in singles AND the trade. I sure wish it wasn't true, though, as I'd much rather have had six more issues of Seaguy than the forty issues of Seven Soldiers we'll be getting, judging from the way things've been going so far. Shining Knight was utterly useless, Guardian was really only good for Stewart's art, Zatanna's been pointless, and Klarion's been pretty good, except I keep forgetting what I read in the last issue by the time the next one comes out. Come to think of it, Vimanarama was utterly shit, too. I think GM's been overextending himself in his effort to be a one man Stan Lee/Jack Kirby idea factory or whatever it is he's trying to be (other than employed) with all this production. Not that I'm not used to him overreaching himself by this point anyway, but it's still been utterly depressing to have spent all this money on new GM stuff only to realize that I don't really care about ANY of it. Plus, I've read lots of Weisinger Superman and I've read Flex Mentallo already, so I dunno what the point of my reading All-Star Superman will be either. It seems like The Filth was the last thing GM did that was really worth reading, cat/dog/rabbit interactions from We3 aside. As the halcyon days of Animal Man and Doom Patrol get farther away, I'm starting to relate less to his writing as a fan, and ironically enough it's since he's entered the "mature" phase of his career and his personality foibles and Weltanschauung have become most prominent in his writing. I'll be interested to see what his next "serious" project is, but I guess I'm no longer enchanted with him as a writer. Dunno if I've just outgrown that attitude, or if I've outgrown giving a shit about what he does at all, or what. Nevertheless, the day I sell/throw out/give away my fricking GM Doom Patrol collection will still be the last day I ever read a comic book.

it quite often veers into prog rock album cover territory, and everyone talks in post-modern slogans

Was this your first time reading a Morrison series, Joe? (Sorry, I just found this amusing.)

Chris F. (servoret), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 03:14 (fourteen years ago) link

Vimanarama was great!

Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 03:18 (fourteen years ago) link

The Filth was completely over-the-top bizarre anti-narrative stuff. But the chapter on Satan's jizz is all sorts of awesome.

Leeeeeeeee (Leee), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 03:19 (fourteen years ago) link

Vimanarama was bomb fuckin' awesome.

kit brash (kit brash), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 03:30 (fourteen years ago) link

it quite often veers into prog rock album cover territory, and everyone talks in post-modern slogans

Was this your first time reading a Morrison series, Joe? (Sorry, I just found this amusing.)

-- Chris F. (nieman...), September 21st, 2005.

Ha ha, that could actually be an unkind summary of his entire career, couldn't it? I've actually read quite a bit of Morrison, and I do prefer his less self-indulgent, more narratively traditional work (Zenith, Invisibles Vol 1, Seaguy), staid old square that I am.

chap who would dare to thwart the revolution (chap), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 13:46 (fourteen years ago) link

Kit & Chuck OTM, Vimanarama was hot Bollywood sci-fi. I've been meaning to re-read it all at once.

Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 16:37 (fourteen years ago) link

Ah, I just felt like he was phoning it in way too much on Vimanarama, one of those cases where his need for bombass artifice and up-to-date poppiness leads him too directly toward stylistic effect, so the book wound up being about GM thinking he was writing hot Bollywood rom-com sci-fi instead of being a living example of said hot Bollywood rom-com sci-fi, just too slight and genre-conscious and "cool dad" relevant for me to give a shit, playacting at an imagined result instead of delivering the goods. The same problem really tainted my enjoyment of We3 (way too intentionally "cinematic"), and I thought it infected Guardian as well even though there it's a device that fits with the themes of the storyline so maybe I'm more cool with it then I first believed. I dunno, I guess he's still experimenting with form, but it feels like things have gotten too self-reflexive at this point. He's always been up his own arse, so maybe I'm just finding it less fun these days. Still, he managed to have Mister Miracle meet no-mind (or nihilism, or adulthood, depending) in this week's installment, so I'm a little less peeved about the series as it stands. And I'm sure I'll wind up giving ASS a try, all bitching about retread "stealth" projects and pointless nostalgia aside.

Chris F. (servoret), Thursday, 22 September 2005 09:04 (fourteen years ago) link

We3 cinematic?! you are smoking rocks, it's the most comics-formalist thing he's ever done!

kit brash (kit brash), Thursday, 22 September 2005 12:09 (fourteen years ago) link

Am I? I meant "cinematic" in terms of narrative feel, due to aping specific formal effects. Similarly, I suppose I shouldn't have said "up his arse" when I meant "talking out of his arse", as he's only "up his arse" occasionally (like half the time on The Invisibles), but his right to be expressively self-indulgent is one of the major themes of his work (like in the last issue of DP, for instance). Is it just me, or does he really owe a lot to the influence of the KLF, self-promotional bullshit and utopian vision (I don't think it's a coincidence that Mr. Nobody finds himself in the white room) both?

Chris F. (servoret), Friday, 23 September 2005 05:15 (fourteen years ago) link

Er, that should be "NOT due to aping specific formal effects"! I dunno, this "hypercondensed" storytelling just rubs me the wrong way. It feels too forced and aware of itself-- really, it's the comics-formalism that's become the problem!

Chris F. (servoret), Friday, 23 September 2005 05:33 (fourteen years ago) link

Vinamarama seemed the least forced thing he's done lately, just a simple story without Grant Morrison's Themes, but still loved by Grant Morrison's brain. As opposed to Mister Miracle, which really does seem like an Invisibles retread.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 23 September 2005 10:47 (fourteen years ago) link

!? I thought that it was full of Themes, especially in the last issue. Plus the bad guys are sort of proto-Sheeda, aren't they? Hmm. I'm looking at the issues now, and I think I was probably being too harsh with the thing anyway, like I kind of gulped it down without really reading it. Maybe Seven Soldiers will make more aesthetic sense on reread also. Not that I want to do a total Lesterbangsian flip-flop here or anything-- I still am not convinced that it's that great.

Plus, I think it's time for me to do a reread on the last issues of Doom Patrol. The issues after that last Mr. Nobody story arc never sat well with me, but I was flipping through them today and found that I liked them better in the context of thinking about this stuff as of late. The Case/Woch art team maybe wasn't the best, but it still kinda works. Also, I think I'm over resenting GM for the less savory ways that his stance on mental illness in DP #63 can be interpreted ("a world where everything is alive and significant" is not always better than the alternative), especially in light of The Filth.

Chris F. (servoret), Saturday, 24 September 2005 06:24 (fourteen years ago) link

The ones after Mr Nobody are where the comic regains the plot, no? There's that irritating Rebis one-shot about the moon, and then it's all I Luv Cliffhangerz till issue 63, right?

Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Saturday, 24 September 2005 14:41 (fourteen years ago) link

And "Asleep"!

Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Saturday, 24 September 2005 14:56 (fourteen years ago) link

there's the five-issue space snoozefest that starts at a circus

kit brash (kit brash), Saturday, 24 September 2005 22:32 (fourteen years ago) link

Yeah, but there's not just the Rebis issue (that really was irritating at the time, wasn't it?), but the Jane two-parter, and the series is getting all decompressed storytelling-wise and it's all a bit too prosaic. When the double-sized issue came out, I thought that the cliffhanger for that was FANTASTIC, but the issues after that just felt like things were winding down, and that sense of strangeness, "everything alive and significant", was gone, replaced by straight-up plot and superheroing and Willoughby Kipling being annoying. The last issue redeemed it all, but at the time it was a bit of a disappointment. In retrospect it's very proto-Invisibles, though, isn't it?

Chris F. (servoret), Sunday, 25 September 2005 07:04 (fourteen years ago) link

Re: "snoozefest", well, yeah. I went off the book when it went "mature readers" (I wasn't one at the time), and I didn't stop stupidly self-policing myself in that regard until the end of the Flex Mentallo arc. So when I got back into the book, I read the space story all in one go, which made it work better than it might have otherwise. But yeah, things start going haywire in the book actually when Flex enters the picture, don't they? All of a sudden you get his plotline which takes forever to resolve, and this outer space thing comes in on top of that and doesn't really go anywhere particularly quickly either. The rhythm of stories that had been established gets blown in favor of this more freeform thing, and things never really get back together after that. It becomes a different book, more Grant Morrison-y but not as consistently good as it had been in the "Painting That Ate Paris" period.

Chris F. (servoret), Sunday, 25 September 2005 07:20 (fourteen years ago) link

I really enjoyed the space story and the Flex Mentallo arc, especially the Pentagon/ant farm issues, but that's partly because the Steve Yeowell story was my first issue - I'd been out of comics for a few years and so had missed GM's start on the title. The space war was an issue or so too long but it fits together nicely, and I thought the comic needed a change of pace.

The actual worst part of the Grant DP run was the Happy Harbor sex men story just after the Pentagon stuff (& the TOTALLY CLASSIC Beard Hunter one-off), that was dreadful and really felt like wheels spinning. Then the second brotherhood stuff was OK, the silver age issue was meh, I LIKED the Rebis moon issue though have never convincingly understood it, and after that it was plot plot plot and fite fite fite but those issues do read better now than at the time.

I read a GM thing last night - his "World Shapers" story for Doctor Who Monthly! Not exactly vintage stuff and John Ridgway was having a serious off-day but there were a couple of moments that were immediately Morrison, that thing he does where the reader and character 1 see something big and weird, and then character 2 treats it really matter-of-factly (which of course just increases the sense of wonder for the reader)

Tom (Groke), Sunday, 25 September 2005 09:07 (fourteen years ago) link

that was his best Dr Who story Tom, don't make me cry

kit brash (kit brash), Sunday, 25 September 2005 20:56 (fourteen years ago) link

The actual worst part of the Grant DP run was the Happy Harbor sex men story just after the Pentagon stuff (& the TOTALLY CLASSIC Beard Hunter one-off), that was dreadful and really felt like wheels spinning.

Yeah, agree and agree (the Beard Hunter was the issue that I started back up with!). The Shadowy Mr. Evans was supposed to be Red Jack pt. 2 or something but just came off as a boring manic asshole, Gnostic Christ or not. I guess you're right that the series needed a change of pace anyway, since when GM got back to the Weird Menace thing with those issues, it didn't work anymore (because he was bored with it? There's that Weird Menace red herring/autocritique bit that I think happens right before the Sex Men issues).

Chris F. (servoret), Monday, 26 September 2005 06:09 (fourteen years ago) link

Newsarama has All-Star Superman preview. I don't like Quitely's art. It's like a cross between Michael Turner and MY ASS.

Huk-L (Huk-L), Friday, 30 September 2005 13:47 (fourteen years ago) link

Oh, and here's the link:
http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/allstarsuperman/issue1_preview.htm

Huk-L (Huk-L), Friday, 30 September 2005 13:47 (fourteen years ago) link

Newsarama has All-Star Superman preview. I don't like Quitely's art. It's like a cross between Michael Turner and MY ASS.

1) Your ass must be a beautiful place.
2) IT'S ON SON!

David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 30 September 2005 14:05 (fourteen years ago) link

Ha, that looks awesome. Lex Luthor = Grant Morrison's latest balding-god-figure.

Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Friday, 30 September 2005 14:11 (fourteen years ago) link

I thought of this when I saw Superman, though: http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/rpe0008l.jpg

Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Friday, 30 September 2005 14:12 (fourteen years ago) link

Yes, I don't like how he draws the jaw. "It's a bird, it's a plane, it's nice to see you, to see you nice!"

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Friday, 30 September 2005 15:15 (fourteen years ago) link

IT IS NOW MORE ON THAN EVER CHIN HATERS

David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 30 September 2005 15:16 (fourteen years ago) link

For me, it's mostly the lips that displease.

Huk-L (Huk-L), Friday, 30 September 2005 15:18 (fourteen years ago) link

Hmm. I thought that the art accentuated the absurdity of Superman's supersuit. It looks very Mego-action-figure-esque in that two-page splash panel. The S seems less like an inspiring "sigil" in such a context, and more like dumb corporate branding. I like GM's Luciferian conception of Lex Luthor though-- it's a nice carryover from the Luthor of "Rock of Ages".

Chris F. (servoret), Friday, 30 September 2005 19:51 (fourteen years ago) link

A bit alexrossy to my taste; never been a fan of the hulky Superman, Ed McGuinness being one of the few exceptions to that rule. And the origin recap is a bit underwhelming when compared to the one seen in Birthright. Nevertheless, I still have expectations for this, and that double page opening is very likely to end up as a wallpaper...

iodine (iodine), Friday, 30 September 2005 20:34 (fourteen years ago) link

URgh.

I am very mad at Quitely for the super package.

The Ghost of Black Elegance (Dan Perry), Friday, 30 September 2005 20:46 (fourteen years ago) link

You're afraid his super-cock is going to burst out of the page and strike you in the face?

kit brash (kit brash), Friday, 30 September 2005 22:29 (fourteen years ago) link

It looks very Mego-action-figure-esque in that two-page splash panel. The S seems less like an inspiring "sigil" in such a context, and more like dumb corporate branding.

I just looked at this, and you're beyond right: some chimp has copy-and-pasted an on-model S-shield over the redesigned one that Morrison and Quitely designed! It's Kirby's Superman-faces all over again.

kit brash (kit brash), Friday, 30 September 2005 22:44 (fourteen years ago) link

this looks fantastic! i'm really excited!

dave k, Saturday, 1 October 2005 13:59 (fourteen years ago) link

three weeks pass...
I just finished The Invisibles, but I didn't get volume 3. Then I realized, because I was reading it in cbr, that it was numbered backwards. Huh.

Leeeeeeeeee (Leee), Sunday, 23 October 2005 06:21 (fourteen years ago) link

five months pass...
So, remember the bit I mentioned somewhere here about Grant's speech on the Disinformation DVD, where he talks about an experience he had getting abducted by aliens in the Southern Hemisphere, because he had set it up so that he went there to be abducted by aliens? I've just had an experience like that tonight-- it ended with me actually rediscovering my magic "sh m n" word (which only has meaning to me, of course), physically seeing fucking Barbelith in Milwaukee (Jordan and Maddie, it's on the end of the break water by the marina if you ever want to take a look-- go at night so you can see the lighthouses with their red and green blinking lights), and then catching a midnight showing of The Matrix, which I could finally see really was the exact same thing as The Invisibles, in movie form! Kids, don't try this at home-- Moore, Gaiman, and Sim (yes, Sim-- why else do you think Moore was buddies with him?) all have good mojo, but Grant was the one who hooked me in at the right age with his Doom Patrol and he's the one who gets the credit from me for saving my life at all the times when I've needed it the most. Magic sometimes works-- you just have to (not) know what you're doing with it! What a dork I am to get my religion from comic books, of all things-- but who cares! Search, search, search-- search all of it!

(And then, destroy, destroy, destroy...)

Chris Freiberg (Chris F.), Saturday, 15 April 2006 08:43 (fourteen years ago) link

Not to ground this thread in more earthly matters, but what's the general consensus on Rock of Ages? Amazon dopes seems to hate it!

c(''c) (Leee), Saturday, 15 April 2006 17:14 (fourteen years ago) link

I like it, on the whole. The climax is pretty muddled, but the Darkseid section makes up for that (The Atom riding lightwaves into his brain! Brilliant).

chap who would dare to be a stone cold thug (chap), Saturday, 15 April 2006 18:10 (fourteen years ago) link

Rock of Ages is great!

I'm glad you were able to find some good drugs in Mke, Chris. :>

Jordan (Jordan), Saturday, 15 April 2006 18:41 (fourteen years ago) link

rock of ages is ok but i can't deal with the art. leee i'm willing to trade you for it if you have anything i like!!

s1ocki (slutsky), Saturday, 15 April 2006 19:30 (fourteen years ago) link

I don't actually have ROA! I read a library copy, actually.

c(''c) (Leee), Saturday, 15 April 2006 19:44 (fourteen years ago) link

Best mainstream comic ever! (Or at least most thrillpowered...)

Amazon dopes hate it b/c it violates narrative conventions: the story interrupts itself halfway through and goes in a completely different direction and it's the most Morrisony JLA trade, in terms of the density, Invisibles references (Darkseid invades in 2012, the same year of the end of earth in Invisibles and Terrence McKenna, etc.) and lyrical weirdness (GL is on the grail quest and, standing in a forest of dead superheroes made out of stone, and he tells the new Hourman that he dreamt he was in a field where all his desires have come true, but then notices that everything is green).

kenchen, Saturday, 15 April 2006 20:08 (fourteen years ago) link

I'm glad you were able to find some good drugs in Mke, Chris. :>

Yah, this city is great-- I'm so glad that it's my home town! (I'm a Cancer, BTW-- and yes, reading your horoscope in the weekly paper for shits and giggles sometimes is a part of dopey Morrisonmania.) Pt. 2 of My Greatest Adventure today has been even more exciting so far-- I just got back from hiking through the labyrinth at Grant Park down on the South Side. It happens to be the case that one of the Seven Bridges there is down for repairs, so I decided to hack my own way out on the hike back...

Chris Freiberg (Chris F.), Saturday, 15 April 2006 21:18 (fourteen years ago) link

no lee i got it if you want to trade FOR it.

personally i think the art is awful and the story is terribly paced (no tension, all release) but there's some neat stuff in it for sure.

s1ocki (slutsky), Saturday, 15 April 2006 21:32 (fourteen years ago) link

I'm virtually blind, so I beg your pardon s1ocki! I'll hit up your email.

c(''c) (Leee), Saturday, 15 April 2006 21:52 (fourteen years ago) link

It's probably my favourite of the JLA storylines, the balance of re-using old ideas and great new ones and campy enjoyment (one of the covers has Batman yelling "Superman, stop! Luthor must escape or the Earth is doomed!") is perfect. It's certainly a excellent one to give people to see whether they'd like the whole series. The only other one that comes close (though they're all great) is World War III, because he does such fantastic endings.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Saturday, 15 April 2006 23:43 (fourteen years ago) link

I remember someone here once complaining that some comic just felt like kids playing with action figures - "and then they FITE and he's dead but NOT REALLY HA HA and then they ride DRAGONS!" and such - and that made me instantly think of "Rock Of Ages". It's good, but I'd be wary of over-hyping it, especially with the *wrong* kind of hype (i.e. emphasizing the Grant Morrison as Comic's Greatest Living Storyteller idea and minimizing the camp aspect.)

Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Sunday, 16 April 2006 10:01 (fourteen years ago) link

I started my rereading of DP last night-- made it halfway through the first storyline before it was time to go to bed. I was thinking of doing an "exegesis" of DP as a writing project last summer and now I'm rather glad I didn't, as it would have been a little bit premature! Reading "Crawling From the Wreckage" with the Scissormen as the baddies right after seeing The Matrix with the Agents as same makes me think that The Invisibles isn't the only GM comic that got borrowed from in its making. It's really amazing when you think about it-- not only do the DP have to defend reality from incursions by the notional world, but they have to defend real life from mechanization, all while sorting through their own issues and discovering the real possibilities and potentials of human life: Rebis, with hir unification of dualities through an application of spirit, discovering eternal life and a world of infinite possibilities for discovery and amusement as a result; Jane, with her 64 real possibilities of human action/character unified behind one purpose, discovering that "what normal people have" isn't necessarily so great; and Cliff, overcoming the mind/body divide by becoming one integrated mechanism, discovering that what it means to be really human has everything to do with humane action and nothing to do with clinging to preconceptions and idealizations.

Chris Freiberg (Chris F.), Sunday, 16 April 2006 16:28 (fourteen years ago) link

the *wrong* kind of hype (i.e. emphasizing the Grant Morrison as Comic's Greatest Living Storyteller idea and minimizing the camp aspect

Yeah, the camp aspect is part of the fun of Grant Morrison, storyteller. I'm reminded of something Morrissey said in interview on the New York Doll DVD-- everybody has one artist that hit them at the right time growing up and who can never disappoint them. GM is certainly it for me, but that doesn't mean that I'd make his comics mandatory reading for everybody on the planet, or even everybody on ILC (though I don't know if there's anyone here who doesn't read his stuff at this point).

Chris Freiberg (Chris F.), Sunday, 16 April 2006 16:41 (fourteen years ago) link

I read some of Morrison's projects, but I'm not reading Seven Soldiers, and I doubt I'll be reading his Batman.

The Yellow Kid, Monday, 17 April 2006 04:36 (fourteen years ago) link

I read some of Morrison's projects

Which ones? I wanna read his Batman just because I'm thinking that his take on it is going to avoid the sort of "fascist" exclusion-from-the-human-race thing that Tuomas seems to be so worried about in regards to superheroes. I bet it's going to be fun-- hopefully they're'll be more "Batman thinks of everything" hijinx as well as science closet goodness.

Chris Freiberg (Chris F.), Monday, 17 April 2006 08:25 (fourteen years ago) link

"They're'll be"? Definitely time to stop for the night...

Chris Freiberg (Chris F.), Monday, 17 April 2006 08:26 (fourteen years ago) link

Off the top of my head:

Animal Man
Seaguy
We3
most of New X-Men
one trade of Doom Patrol
one or two trades of JLA
the first half of the Filth
one trade of the Invisibles
Arkham Asylum

The Yellow Kid, Monday, 17 April 2006 18:56 (fourteen years ago) link

Hmm. So what were your favorites and why, and what made you not want to read Seven Soldiers? Initially, I wasn't going to buy it either-- I was being a cheapskate though.

In other news, it feels like I'm embarking on a mature reading of DP finally as I wade through this stuff. "Exegesis" is stupid though-- it's better when it's unpacked but still not made explicit. Mum's the word from me on this shite from here on out, except to say that I'm cool with the ending of #63 again.

Chris Freiberg (Chris F.), Monday, 17 April 2006 22:34 (fourteen years ago) link

Really Liked: Animal Man, We3.
Kinda Liked: New X-Men, Doom Patrol.
Didn't Really Like: The rest.

Morrison's hit-and-miss for me, so I tend to pick up his comics only if it sounds like an interesting idea. I liked the idea of Seven Soldiers' structure, the 7 interlocking mini-series, but I never heard much about what it was actually about. I tend to only buy comics that I'm definitely interested in - I'm also a cheapskate. I picked up the first issue of Shining Knight after hearing good things, but I didn't think it was all that good, so I stopped there. I'll probably read Seven Soldiers if the library gets the trades, but I'm not going to buy them.

The Yellow Kid, Tuesday, 18 April 2006 03:49 (fourteen years ago) link

I think Shining Knight is the worst part of Seven Soldiers so far. I've read the first two trades and like Klarion and Manhattan Guardian a lot, Zatanna pretty good, and Shining Knight not so much.

sheep sheet (serious sheet), Tuesday, 18 April 2006 15:56 (fourteen years ago) link

Spot on there, Sheep.

chap who would dare to be a stone cold thug (chap), Tuesday, 18 April 2006 16:58 (fourteen years ago) link

Mr Miracle was far worse than Shining Knight (the art in SK was completely incoherent but pretty, whereas MM is merely incoherent, combined with being inconsistent thanks to DC [also censored])

kit brash (kit brash), Tuesday, 18 April 2006 22:53 (fourteen years ago) link

I thought MM was incoherent the first time I read it too. Then I went back and re-read the whole thing, with some help from the discussion on Barbelith. A friend of mine asked me what the hell was going on in #4, and I sent him this:

Cover: Note that, as with the other #4 issues in 7S, MM is escaping. ("Free at last": talk about polyvalent.) Note also that the perspective is really wonky: what we are seeing is not an angle shot, but an _angle shot of_ an angle shot--that is, a 2-D look at a 2-D image that has been rotated away from us. The picture plane is really important here, as it is in e.g. Zatanna.

Pg. 1: Young Shilo, before his brother's death, practicing escapism. Hmm. Escapism.

Pg. 2: Crippled, castrated Fisher-King Shilo, ODing on pills.

Pg. 3: Following Shilo's death, Omega shows him another life path (in which Aaron never died and he never became an escape artist).

Pg. 4: This life is zooming toward its conclusion (the kids are older)...

Pg. 5: And faster. Rabbi Dezard is of course Desaad; Shilo's granddaughter is Ms. Miracle... and of course the menorah is a commemoration of a miracle, & of something that lasted much longer than it should have... but Shilo realizes this isn't his life. Death, again, is the escape from the Life Trap.

Pg. 6: Back to Pg. 1 scenario. Several years later, Shilo sees Aaron killed (this is shortly before Shilo was introduced in Jack Kirby's Mister Miracle #15). That _is_ Shilo's real life.

Pg. 7: Sort of Shilo's real life: he and Dina worked on the Slab. But not his real life: he wasn't the warden.

Pg. 8: Oracle is the all-seeing one who appeared in Justice League of America #100-102 (the original Silver Age Seven Soldiers story, also alluded to in Bulleteer #2 etc.). "The spear" may be "the spear that never was thrown" (see Guardian #4 and Bulleteer #4). The chained god was also talked about in Klarion #4 and Guardian #2.

Pg. 9: The God Exterminators are Darkseid and Desaad, of course.

Pg. 10: "Aurakles": cf. Shining Knight 3, and the bit about the Sword of Aurakles.

Pg. 11: Shilo gives his life to free Oracle.

Pg. 12: Mother Box's soul escaped into Shilo, who is still going through "the life trap": one life after another...

Pg. 13: ...like this one: Infinite Crisis, and dead superheroes everywhere. Then a flashback to the Pg. 1/6 scene, then back to the aftermath of IC: Shilo's dead. Then another life trap, in which Shilo's been shot in the head. Back to the Shilo-as-kid scene.

Pg. 14: Much speculation on Barbelith to the effect that "the fundamental force that is restriction" is the comic book page...

Pg. 15:... and the printed page's picture plane is "the prison you can never escape." (Check out the Metron scene in #1 again: lots of freaky picture-plane stuff going on there, of the same kind we see in Zatanna #1 and 4.)

Pg. 16: More "continuities," more deaths for Shilo: drowning in a car; dying as an infant; a heart attack; throwing himself in front of the bullets that killed Aaron; old age... but as he says "you're right here with me," he's in precisely the same pose he was in in MM #1, pg. 3, panel 2.

Pg. 17: "Representing something that's in all of us": superhero comics characters are about escape!

Pg. 18: One more life: Shilo _younger_ than he was when Aaron died, completing his initiation at the hands of Metron. Guilt, as we learned in Shining Knight, is a Sheeda mind destroyer; overcome it and you escape the trap.

Pg. 19: Same dialogue in Panel 1 as in #1 pg. 6. So yes, in the final "continuity" he has been in the black hole for the seven days 7S takes place over, but he's ALSO been having all of these lives during his initiation--which is how e.g. he encountered the cab from Klarion and Jake Jordan making his marriage proposal in MM #3. (Note that he didn't _affect_ any of that stuff, but it was happening; as of now, he was no longer present during those events.) And now his "true life" begins.

Pg. 20: The "big storm" is Hurricane Gloria/Gloriana.

Pg. 21: Back to the pg. 1/6/13 thing: looks like he got out, and his brother bought him that chocolate sundae he promised him. Note that this is the first page of the ENTIRE SERIES that isn't dark and/or dark-bordered, and how this compares to the final pages of previous chapters, all full-page splashes: #1 is in a rotated picture plane (w/ same weird perspective trick as this issue's cover), surrounded by darkness, even!

Douglas (Douglas), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 00:18 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah I know what *happens* in it (though that's way more detailed than I'd bothered to pick up on a single bimonth-by-bimonth reading), it's just that the art's rubbish, making it painful to try and parse! (and all that about the restriction of the page etc SO UNDERLINES the stupidity of DC censorship)

kit brash (kit brash), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 02:34 (fourteen years ago) link

Wait, the "censorship" you're talking about is the Metron double-page spread that was originally going to have hands holding it visible at the bottom? Do we know that that was a DC corporate decision and not a late-in-the-game Morrison decision, or have any idea why DC would do that?

Douglas (Douglas), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 04:01 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah, I'm attributing it to DC because I have no idea why Morrison would do that, especially given the thought-balloon-reading and panel-tearing that happened in the next two SS issues that came out (I probably go on about this upthread somewhere!)

kit brash (kit brash), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 06:43 (fourteen years ago) link

no I don't, but I bet I'm grumbling away on some Seven Soldiers thread

kit brash (kit brash), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 07:17 (fourteen years ago) link

Which is probably where you'll find me pointing out that people who hate the art don't deserve eyes.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 07:53 (fourteen years ago) link

The first filler art guy was pretty wretched, but the one after him was fine. I'm not sure if I get the "picture plane" stuff on the cover of MM #4 that Douglas mentions, but I'll go back and have a look.

Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 08:22 (fourteen years ago) link

Can we talk more about "The New Adventures of Adolf Hitler"? I never saw it all, but it has some of my favourite ever bits in comics, like AH being followed by a bus, or him imagining that his cup of tea is the Holy Grail (and then wishing that Jesus had been born in Bavaria because he would have looked good in Lederhosen).

DV (dirtyvicar), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 10:10 (fourteen years ago) link

Can I ask a question or two about Mr Miracle? What happened to Scott Free? And what was the situation of the New Gods before this GM comic?

I just reread all but the last two Seven Soldiers comics, and loved them far more on a reread than first time - the intricacy of the interlinking is breathtaking, and I hope the ending does the job.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 12:29 (fourteen years ago) link

(x-post insert: SS is post-Finite Crisis, so who knows about Scott Free and New Gods and history of Shilo.)

NAOAH is in the Top Three Grant Morrison Comics Ever, and possibly the best-coloured comic I have ever read (even more amazing because IIRC it was originally going to be in b&w in Cut! though I guess that's why the Crisis colourist felt free to go wild and paint shit through the entire background of a panel or fill things with wallpaper patterns or whatever)

kit brash (kit brash), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 12:33 (fourteen years ago) link

kit, two of my friends did the colouring on NAOAH and afaik you're the first person to EVER notice or remark on the incredible job that they did - my fave page is the one w/ a gigantic pic of manson in the b/g, swastika carved into his forehead - colouring as commentary!

Ward Fowler (Ward Fowler), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 12:46 (fourteen years ago) link

kiss them for me! I've been adoring that since I was 13 or whatever (were they even credited?)

kit brash (kit brash), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 13:14 (fourteen years ago) link

i think so - st*ve whitak*r and n*ck abadz*s, plus another pal of n's helping 'em out, tho maybe they all took a joint psuedo-credit - all done pre-computer, obv, i remember them spending hours on fiddly hand cutouts and whatnot - sadly the fuss w/ Cut and that knob Pat Kane kind've overshadowed everything else abt NAOAH (which I agree is one of Morrison's best strips)

Ward Fowler (Ward Fowler), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 13:30 (fourteen years ago) link

Hey, how does one get a copy of this?

kenchen, Wednesday, 19 April 2006 15:08 (fourteen years ago) link

The guy who did Hugo Tate? Coool.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 15:19 (fourteen years ago) link

New Adventures of Hitler? Need to find a digital copy, likely. Never seen it in the states.

Which is to say, if anyone has it and wants to mail it to little old me, please get in touch. Ta.

Matt Maxwell (Matt M.), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 16:09 (fourteen years ago) link

This is my real email address. I'm just saying.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 16:26 (fourteen years ago) link

Same here. Except for the, uh, "uh."

Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 16:38 (fourteen years ago) link

Me3

s1ocki (slutsky), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 16:57 (fourteen years ago) link

I dare say it was a pseudo-credit, I probably would have noticed Ab@dzis' name when I re-read it in the '90s sometime.

kit brash (kit brash), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 20:12 (fourteen years ago) link

I fucking had this, I know I did. And when I went looking for it to forward it, where is it?

aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 20:51 (fourteen years ago) link

I too am interested in this New Adventures of Adolph Hitler. I'm a casual Morrison geek and hadn't heard of it until this thread.

Telephonething (Telephonething), Thursday, 20 April 2006 00:05 (fourteen years ago) link

I've got it, I can sort something out tonight if people are still HUNGRY FOR HITLER.

Tom (Groke), Thursday, 20 April 2006 08:22 (fourteen years ago) link

I only read bits of it in "Cut" (in colour, I think), and then was in my skint phase when it appeared in "Crisis", so I've never read it all.

The controversy around it was half the fun. It's always great watching po-faced twunts get excited about things.

DV (dirtyvicar), Thursday, 20 April 2006 08:28 (fourteen years ago) link

hi tom, I am hungry for hitler!!

dave k, Thursday, 20 April 2006 12:51 (fourteen years ago) link

I'm craving Adolph myself.

Austin Still (Austin, Still), Thursday, 20 April 2006 13:39 (fourteen years ago) link

I think I might put him in a hidden bunker webpage.

Tom (Groke), Thursday, 20 April 2006 13:43 (fourteen years ago) link

Ditto. (xp!)

pixel farmer (Rock Hardy), Thursday, 20 April 2006 13:44 (fourteen years ago) link

I'm on antibiotics (root canal) and the prescription clearly reads "Take With Food (Hitler, pref.)"

Huk-L (Huk-L), Thursday, 20 April 2006 13:49 (fourteen years ago) link

If you don't let me in on the secret Hitler site, MAGGOT WILL DIE!

Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Thursday, 20 April 2006 15:46 (fourteen years ago) link

i remember the hitler thing fondly if only for the stencil-buffer effect they used for the colouring (ie the patterns remained static despite the character moving, if you see what i mean) (oh, xpost kit brash 2 days ago...)

koogs (koogs), Thursday, 20 April 2006 17:04 (fourteen years ago) link

Can I please put in a Hitler request too?
Also, while I'm here, as this is my first post, I'd just like to say that I've been lurking for a couple of weeks, and some of the discussions here are the funniest things I've read in ages. My first encounter with ILC was the 'My CBR Shame' thread, and lordy do I know that feeling.

Nice to know there are plenty of other people out there who keep reading some of these damn series despite the lack of rewards.

James Morrison, Thursday, 20 April 2006 21:59 (fourteen years ago) link

Hi James! Don't forget...
Welcome and introduce your geeky self, you nerd!

Huk-L (Huk-L), Friday, 21 April 2006 13:53 (fourteen years ago) link

er, actually:
All New Introduce Yourselves thread!

Huk-L (Huk-L), Friday, 21 April 2006 13:59 (fourteen years ago) link

I know of no Hitler.

(This post will be deleted at some point this weekend by the way).

Tom (Groke), Friday, 21 April 2006 13:59 (fourteen years ago) link

Achtung! Donkey Shane!

Austin Still (Austin, Still), Friday, 21 April 2006 14:15 (fourteen years ago) link

Ach! Probably wouldn't be prudent to do this at work.

Huk-L (Huk-L), Friday, 21 April 2006 14:16 (fourteen years ago) link

Making a note of the URL might be advisable. Also renaming to .cbz

Tom (Groke), Friday, 21 April 2006 14:18 (fourteen years ago) link

Tom, yer a star.

aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Friday, 21 April 2006 14:45 (fourteen years ago) link

"Alois has hairy ears. I covet them."

Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Friday, 21 April 2006 14:53 (fourteen years ago) link

Tom, you are indeed a star. I thank you much.

James Morrison (JRSM), Monday, 24 April 2006 01:43 (fourteen years ago) link

Well, that was rather good. Though I'm worried by the amount that he seems to have pinched from Beryl Bainbridge's great novel, 'Young Adolf'. Though I'm probably far from the first person to notice that connection.

James Morrison (JRSM), Monday, 24 April 2006 02:49 (fourteen years ago) link

eight months pass...
I accidentally posted this over on the old ILE Morrison thread, but I found all four issues of Flex Mentallo for eight bucks at a store down in Georgia. Which is about as exciting as the time I found a still shrinkwrapped copy of the Monks album for a buck. Haven't read it yet, but no matter how good it is it'll be hard to resist the temptation to flip it for fifty or so bucks over on eBay.

barefoot manthing (Garrett Martin), Friday, 5 January 2007 18:48 (thirteen years ago) link

Wow, I'm starting to think I should take better care of my copy of Flex Mentallo after looking at ebay! That's one hell of a find for $8, though, congrats.

mh. (mike h.), Friday, 5 January 2007 19:53 (thirteen years ago) link

I think the Monks album's a LITTLE more exciting!

808 the Bassking (Andrew Thames), Saturday, 6 January 2007 01:36 (thirteen years ago) link

So...I guess I've come around to liking Quitely.

Huk-L (Huk-L), Sunday, 7 January 2007 18:10 (thirteen years ago) link

Welcome to the cool table, Huk. Now go kick your nerd friends in the crotch.

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 8 January 2007 03:11 (thirteen years ago) link

I still think the lips in Earth-2 were too much, though. Should I kick my own crotch?

Huk-L (Huk-L), Monday, 8 January 2007 03:36 (thirteen years ago) link

Start w/ Angelina Jolie, then do yourself.

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 8 January 2007 05:07 (thirteen years ago) link

NOOOOO Huk! Don't leave me alone in this!

J (Jay), Monday, 8 January 2007 13:45 (thirteen years ago) link

ten months pass...

Does this guy have any kind of game in comic collector circles? I ask because while tidying up the attic last week, I found a copy of "near myths", a brit comic anthology zine from the late '70's. As well as an episode of Bryan Talbot's "Luther Arkwright", it contains an episode of Morrison's "Gideon Stargrave". I believe Morrison resurrected the character in recent years. It is really, really bad. But kind of entertainingly so.

Should I haul it up on ebay, or just stick it back on the shelf, dear ILC-ers?

Pashmina, Wednesday, 28 November 2007 16:08 (twelve years ago) link

OH YEAH

Dr. Superman, Wednesday, 28 November 2007 16:19 (twelve years ago) link

perhaps you may even get offers from ILComickers

Dr. Superman, Wednesday, 28 November 2007 16:33 (twelve years ago) link

Oh man!

Douglas, Wednesday, 28 November 2007 17:08 (twelve years ago) link

I have just discovered that they retconned out of existence the big twist from GM's New X-Men.

The Real Dirty Vicar, Wednesday, 28 November 2007 18:56 (twelve years ago) link

Which one... the everybody-will-be-mutants one? Or another one?

James Morrison, Wednesday, 28 November 2007 22:57 (twelve years ago) link

I thought they'd retconned the lot. Presumably because it left a bunch of X geeks and casual readers who'd just seen the movie all going "WTF? We don't want actual ideas in our comics."

Stone Monkey, Thursday, 29 November 2007 16:53 (twelve years ago) link

Most of them. Although they retconned Xorn within, like, days after GM's run ended. Evidently they didn't understand the entire concept.

Douglas, Thursday, 29 November 2007 17:03 (twelve years ago) link

eleven months pass...

"The Filth is good as a collection of ideas and reads better the second time through. It's part of Grant's "feel sorry for my dead cat" genre."

Can anyone explain this to me?

MaresNest, Friday, 28 November 2008 12:28 (eleven years ago) link

Which bit?

The Filth is good as a collection of ideas - it's certainly a collection of ideas, and I really like the ideas in the collection.

reads better the second time through - this is self-explanatory, though I haven't given it the second read.

It's part of Grant's "feel sorry for my dead cat" genre." - as seen in Animal Man, he's not above using the projection that humans place on lower lifeforms to get an emotional response, as part of the effect he's trying to generate with his stories.

Andrew Farrell, Friday, 28 November 2008 14:48 (eleven years ago) link

I actually think that The Filth's insistence that sympathy for non-humans is an essential aspect of humanity is pretty interesting. It's Feely's love for his cat that keeps him from returning to his old life. It's certainly heavy-handed, and something GM's perhaps done a little too much (both in Animal Man, and at least once in The Invisibles), but it is a pretty effective near-universal experience to tap into.

Also, yes, The Filth is certainly better second time through.

arango, Saturday, 29 November 2008 20:02 (eleven years ago) link

...he's not above using the projection that humans place on lower lifeforms to get an emotional response...

-- Andrew Farrell

Perhaps it's exactly as cynical as you suggest, but based on Animal Man, The Filth, We3, Seaguy, I get the impression that the issue is a bit more personal for Mr. Morrison. I.e., he's not coldly exploiting a projection so much as sympathetically exploring the emotional consequences of loss -- using personal experience as a tool. Loved The Filth the first time through, and no more (no less) the second.

Suggest Ban Permalink (contenderizer), Sunday, 7 December 2008 19:38 (eleven years ago) link

Servoret posts from way upthread are so damn great.

Suggest Ban Permalink (contenderizer), Sunday, 7 December 2008 19:39 (eleven years ago) link

Maybe it's not a big issue in The Filth, but I thought Animal Man and WE3 made it clear Morrison cares about animals and animal rights as such, so it's not always just about projection. WE3 is all about not seeing animals as mere intruments to satisfy human needs.

Tuomas, Sunday, 7 December 2008 22:17 (eleven years ago) link

wHAT tUOMAS AND sUGGEST bAN pERMALINK SAID. Sorry, typed without looking with caps lock on.

James Morrison, Sunday, 7 December 2008 22:40 (eleven years ago) link

three months pass...

question - somewhere in volume two of the invisibles, they all draw straws to decide what their role in the group is in terms of elemental symbolism. sadly this comes across as an excuse for the artists to start drawing ragged robin in leather, but the idea is still sort of interesting: does anyone know where morrison got it from?

thomp, Tuesday, 24 March 2009 00:18 (eleven years ago) link

Maybe he just came up with it himself? The idea of switching roles/responsibilities from time to time to avoid internal hierarchies from developing is quite common in anarchist-oriented grassroot politics, something which Morrison no doubt is familiar with. And combining that with elemental symbolism seems like a typically Morrisonian idea.

Tuomas, Thursday, 26 March 2009 21:10 (eleven years ago) link

hey tuomas is back!

I am Robertson Speedo (Drugs A. Money), Thursday, 26 March 2009 21:28 (eleven years ago) link

i heard a thing on npr the other day about how during harold washington's (1st black mayor of chicago) campaign, racist supporters of his opponent would sometimes wear blank white badges.

meat of beef (Jordan), Thursday, 26 March 2009 21:32 (eleven years ago) link

didnt read the thread but marvel boy is his best thing

the most brazen explosion of clitoral lust in folk-metal history (cankles), Thursday, 26 March 2009 21:36 (eleven years ago) link

Has anyone ever checked out that Invisibles' guidebook "Anarchy For The Masses?"

Chris Barrus (Elvis Telecom), Thursday, 26 March 2009 21:50 (eleven years ago) link

Yeah, I have it. Well, it's actually in LA, along with my run of THE INVISIBLES, with a friend of mine who's had them for too long. I recall it illuminating a few points here and there but not quite as meaty as I'd wanted it to be. Maybe I'm already steeped in esoterica, so some of it was old news.

Matt M., Thursday, 26 March 2009 23:13 (eleven years ago) link

Despite his reputation for including various esoteric matters into his comics, I think Morrison is actually quite good at making them into an organic part of his stories and explaining them within the story, so I've never felt I'd need the help of some external reference guide. I've read some texts where various Morrison stories are interpreted via spiral dynamics, but I don't think knowledge of that theory is in any way necessary to understand what he's writing about.

The only thing in The Invisibles that was quite strange to me was The Hand of Glory (at first I thought it was something Morrison came up with himself), and even with that one, knowing it's an ages-old concept isn't really necessary for understanding what it does in the story. Of course there are some subtle in-jokes and references in his comics that require some outside knowledge to decipher (like Miss Rimbaud in the Miracle Man miniseries), but mostly they're just small details that make the whole richer, not something you need to get in order to understand the story.

Tuomas, Friday, 27 March 2009 12:54 (eleven years ago) link

one year passes...

Great News!

Flex Mentallo hardcover coming this fall!

http://vertigo.blog.dccomics.com/2011/01/04/flex-mentallo-is-back/

EZ Snappin, Tuesday, 4 January 2011 17:49 (nine years ago) link

"Beautiful deluxe edition" = time to start calling in all the debts yer owed.

I hope they kept the essays.

"They did it with computers!" (R Baez), Tuesday, 4 January 2011 17:59 (nine years ago) link

Still have the singles. Which I got for less than twenty bucks (piecemeal).

I'm waiting for DC to decide to release THE COMPLEAT GRANT MORRISON LIBRARY editions of everything after THE INVISIBLES gets the Absolute treatment.

Matt M., Tuesday, 4 January 2011 19:24 (nine years ago) link

ahhhhhhh

assorted curses (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 4 January 2011 20:07 (nine years ago) link

xp -- could def. see that happening by mid-decade, assuming no Alan Moore-style falling out w/DC

earnest goes to camp, ironic goes to ilm (pixel farmer), Tuesday, 4 January 2011 20:18 (nine years ago) link

Oh wow, this is the best news in ages! Now I don't have to squint at those cbr files ever again.

Tuomas, Wednesday, 5 January 2011 07:16 (nine years ago) link

Great!

Now Zenith too, please

Chuck_Tatum, Wednesday, 5 January 2011 09:13 (nine years ago) link

Is his new(ish) batman run any good? Pretty much the only time I'm not all abt morrison is his batman stuff - really couldn't get into arkham asylum at all fr example.

toastmodernist, Wednesday, 5 January 2011 11:50 (nine years ago) link

It's probably the least cohesive (and my least favourite) of GM's mainstream superhero projects, but it's still pretty good. I'd try Batman #700, which is a fairly accessible done-in-one, and should give you an idea -- tonally, at least -- of what the rest of his run is like.

Chuck_Tatum, Wednesday, 5 January 2011 12:40 (nine years ago) link

It starts pretty weak, but some parts of it are very good, especially Batman RIP and the Final Crisis related material. Basically, I don't think Morrison is at his best when trying to write "street vigilante" or "dark knight detective" stuff, but the more mind screwy bits of his run are quite fine. Actually, it's kinda odd that Morrison has stayed so long with Batman, as Batman is seemingly the character least suited for him among DC's major superheroes.

Tuomas, Wednesday, 5 January 2011 13:17 (nine years ago) link

thankfully it's just a "deluxe hardcover", not ABSOLUTE (so far as I can tell) so hopefully not more than $25 retail

really enjoyed the Batman Morrison run; maybe it's because he's so unlikely to be a good Batman writer that it was so fun, especially as Tuomas says, the RIP/FC material. I loved the whole tone of the Black Glove arc, and even the constantly changing art teams still managed to work with the material, though I wish they could've kept Kubert or Williams on the whole thing

Nhex, Wednesday, 5 January 2011 13:26 (nine years ago) link

most of the artists who aren't Williams do a lot of damage to anything in the "Batman" title (bar some bits of #700, and did John Van Fleet do that painted Joker one early on?), but Final Crisis is all good, and there are only three issues of Batman & Robin with shitty art, and even that's nowhere near as shitty as Tony Daniel. (Slightly shittier than Kubert.)

Urban Coochie Collective (sic), Wednesday, 5 January 2011 22:48 (nine years ago) link

I think Batman Inc. is a lot of fun, and I like Yanick Paquette's (Kevin Nowlan-esque) art. Morrison seems to come up with a lot of ideas that seem nonsensical or out of character (like having Bat-partners around the world), but work anyway just from sheer energy level and the fact that he doesn't let the pace lag long enough to give them much thought.

earnest goes to camp, ironic goes to ilm (pixel farmer), Wednesday, 5 January 2011 23:06 (nine years ago) link

Paquette's biting Nowlan's shading on faces, don't see too much else Nowlanesque in his layouts or spotting. The grotesquely OTT T&A in #1 almost put me off the series completely, but a combination of him reining it in a bit and me being braced for it helped #2 go down easier.

Urban Coochie Collective (sic), Thursday, 6 January 2011 00:01 (nine years ago) link

Morrison seems to come up with a lot of ideas that seem nonsensical or out of character (like having Bat-partners around the world), but work anyway just from sheer energy level and the fact that he doesn't let the pace lag long enough to give them much thought.

― earnest goes to camp, ironic goes to ilm (pixel farmer), Wednesday, January 5, 2011 3:06 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

love the bat-partners around the world bit, but largely because it's so unexpected. i'm completely sick of the "one dark & driven borderline bat-psycho going it alone against a fiendish web of crime (and his own inner demons!)" shtick. nice to see someone take the character in a new direction without sacrificing his basic essence.

carles marx (contenderizer), Thursday, 6 January 2011 13:44 (nine years ago) link

Did love final crisis an awful lot. P. much agree with tuomas that batman isn't particularly well suited for him. Strange though because i generally do like morrison even more when he's reined in a little bit. His x-men run is probably my favourite thing in all of comics.

toastmodernist, Thursday, 6 January 2011 14:01 (nine years ago) link

The Talking with Gods documentary was a bit amateurish, but it's well worth a watch if you're interested in where Morrison's ideas come from. His father seems to have been quite an interesting person (a WWII veteran who became a peace and anti-nuclear activist), and a dapper fellow too. No wonder Flex was based on him.

It was also interesting to see and hear so many Morrison collaborators talk onscreen, I hadn't seen any footage of most of them. Never would've imagined J. H. Williams III looks like that.

Tuomas, Friday, 7 January 2011 07:19 (nine years ago) link

Is this worth watching? I'm concerned that if GM's on-camera persona is too embarrassing, it might plague me while I'm reading the comics. I mean, I've seen him on two-minute Newsarama videos, but a whole movie?

Chuck_Tatum, Friday, 7 January 2011 13:35 (nine years ago) link

GM comes off as a pretty affable and straightforward chap, so there's not much embarrassing stuff there. There's a few of occasions when he starts talking mumbo jumbo about magic and cosmic stuff, but if you've read The Invisibles none if should come as a surprise. Mostly it's just Grant and his colleagues talking about his work, which seems like a good form for a documentary like this.

Tuomas, Friday, 7 January 2011 14:43 (nine years ago) link

Also, the movie has the Official Origin Story (or at least Grant's version of it) of the beef between him and Alan Moore, which was totally new info to me. Seems like the feud dates back to mid-80s when Moore vetoed a Marvelman script by Grant which would've otherwise been published in Warrior.

Tuomas, Friday, 7 January 2011 14:48 (nine years ago) link

yeah that was summarized upthread, I'd never heard that before.

does seem like a bit of a dick move by Moore.

there was a bit on Dr. Casino's Animal Man recap/blog thing about how Moore and Morrison have fundamentally different ideas about superheroes (Moore = BAD! Morrison = Great!) which seems to speak to a major difference in their approaches and worldviews - Moore seems much darker/cynical/nihilistic and Morrison is sorta the opposite

assorted curses (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 7 January 2011 16:54 (nine years ago) link

There's a pretty long bit of Morrison speaking on one of those disinfo dvds that's pretty decent.

I was reading a roundup of things that happened in 1981/1991/2001 as a retrospective, and I was kind of shocked to realize that Grant's New X-Men run started back in 2001. It doesn't seem nearly that long ago!

mh, Friday, 7 January 2011 17:13 (nine years ago) link

I was reading a roundup of things that happened in 1981/1991/2001 as a retrospective, and I was kind of shocked to realize that Grant's New X-Men run started back in 2001. It doesn't seem nearly that long ago!

― mh, Friday, January 7, 2011 12:13 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

i was saying this on another thread! it's shocking to me imo

Princess TamTam, Friday, 7 January 2011 17:15 (nine years ago) link

fundamentally different ideas about superheroes (Moore = BAD! Morrison = Great!)

Moore LOVES superheroes!

basically just a 2/47 freak out (sic), Saturday, 8 January 2011 02:43 (nine years ago) link

I think he used to, but hasn't in a long time.

earnest goes to camp, ironic goes to ilm (pixel farmer), Saturday, 8 January 2011 03:48 (nine years ago) link

Tom Strong, Top Ten?

basically just a 2/47 freak out (sic), Saturday, 8 January 2011 04:02 (nine years ago) link

ok, sub "five or six years" for "a long time"

earnest goes to camp, ironic goes to ilm (pixel farmer), Saturday, 8 January 2011 04:13 (nine years ago) link

moore is crap if that helps.

toastmodernist, Saturday, 8 January 2011 04:46 (nine years ago) link

love from hell and watchmen but it's still a pretty good challops.

toastmodernist, Saturday, 8 January 2011 04:48 (nine years ago) link

I believe Moore's position, which he summed up in his MR. MONSTER intro, was "Superheroes are fine, but they should know their place. And that place is off my lawn, dammit!"

Dream impossible dreams (R Baez), Saturday, 8 January 2011 04:56 (nine years ago) link

i wouldn't want superheroes on my lawn either.

toastmodernist, Saturday, 8 January 2011 04:59 (nine years ago) link

two months pass...

I just finished reading GM's entire Batman run from "Batman and Son" to "Batman Inc" (via Final Crisis) on and it's somehow revealed itself as one of my favourite Morrison things ever -- makes so much more sense (and is so much more fun for making more sense) read in one big swoop rather than month-by-month.

Complaint (because this is the internet, and there must be one): Paquette's art is pretty hideous.

Chuck_Tatum, Monday, 4 April 2011 11:09 (nine years ago) link

so very far from the worst art on the run though! grrroosss T&A but at least it reads

despite not doin a tweet for five weeks (sic), Monday, 4 April 2011 12:16 (nine years ago) link

I still have no fucking idea what happened in the last issue of ROBW, but I rolled with it. Maybe on the re-read.

Chuck_Tatum, Monday, 4 April 2011 12:26 (nine years ago) link

The Dis-Info video is also available off a Google video search, at least that's where I saw it (Mr. Morrison drinking sloppily and all, in stunning TECHNICOLOR!) Have TALKING WITH GODS on my list to watch sometime, but since I'm writing and not lettering, I can't have movies on in the background while pounding on the keyboard.

Unfortunately, reading his more recent (say, after ALL-STAR SUPERMAN) monthly comics in the monthly form is often frustrating. I've been reading BATMAN AND ROBIN in chunks when say six or more months have backed up. Much more satisfying. Didn't care for INC until the last issue flipped my lid.

I have this theory about the fundamental differences between messrs Moore and Morrison being explicated through their view of magic (which is nothing more than another way to interact with the outside world.) Mr. Moore is heavily steeped in obscure arcana and Mr. Morrison says "Well, just find something that works."

Matt M., Monday, 4 April 2011 15:50 (nine years ago) link

comics in the monthly form is often frustrating. I've been reading BATMAN AND ROBIN in chunks when say six or more months have backed up.

this is crazy, his previous run was a frustrating mess chapter by chapter but B&R is supercharged thrillpower. the cliffhangers in those Frazer Irving issues!

despite not doin a tweet for five weeks (sic), Monday, 4 April 2011 21:51 (nine years ago) link

PS BTW B&R finished over six months ago! You should have read it all by now!

despite not doin a tweet for five weeks (sic), Monday, 4 April 2011 21:54 (nine years ago) link

I read it awhile ago. I get it pulled but still don't read it month-to-month. Hell, I don't read most things month-to-month. No patience for it.

Matt M., Monday, 4 April 2011 22:38 (nine years ago) link

also you missed out on reading Return Of Bruce Wayne and Batman & Robin concurrently, where each issue of each series was dropping hints for the next issue of the other series. so much fun!

also lol you are buying six months of a Fabian Nicieza comic that you are not even reading

despite not doin a tweet for five weeks (sic), Monday, 4 April 2011 23:18 (nine years ago) link

I still have no fucking idea what happened in the last issue of ROBW, but I rolled with it. Maybe on the re-read.

Similar sentiments - that double page spread made my corporate comic month, though. Oh, and I liked how I began that ish in a state of desultory disillusion w/ GM and ended thinking "Man, he should write Wonder Woman next!"

Ramen Noodles & Ketchup (R Baez), Tuesday, 5 April 2011 03:06 (nine years ago) link

It is interesting how common a reaction to GM comics is "I had no idea what happened there". Sometimes this is in a good way, but sometimes I get the idea that he ought to work a bit more on his plots. This may mark me out as a GM agnostic.

The New Dirty Vicar, Tuesday, 5 April 2011 09:21 (nine years ago) link

I think I accidentally picked up one B&R issue post-GM. Remember, Batman Inc. is the one to buy, now!

Anyone have a good recommended reading order for the B&R/ROBW issues? I want to have a friend read them, either in collected form or as cbr files, and think going through each individually wouldn't work as well.

sarcasdick (mh), Tuesday, 5 April 2011 16:03 (nine years ago) link

DV, my impression has always been that GM comics are always tightly and impeccably plotted, but that plot elements are often revealed in the tiniest and easiest-to-miss ways. A sideways glance or a gesture made by a character in the background of a panel might reveal something hugely important; blink and you'll miss it. I usually miss it.

The Louvin Spoonful (WmC), Tuesday, 5 April 2011 16:09 (nine years ago) link

sometimes though he just writes some nonsense that is incumbent upon having some knowledge of his subject's history in order to get it (yes I am looking at you, Mister Miracle portions of Seven Soldiers)

fat fat fat fat Usher (DJP), Tuesday, 5 April 2011 16:12 (nine years ago) link

haha yeah my drummer complained about that and then I loaned him my Fourth World Omnibus volumes

in my world of loose geirs (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 5 April 2011 21:56 (nine years ago) link

been keeping away from post RIP Batman stories as I was all event'ed out and wanted a break. Now it seems we are coming to the end of Morrisons batman run.

Now I've snapped and bought a load of TPBs online, looking forward to them coming.

I've accepted there will be no uber-compendium of this stuff, so just going to get stuck in.

will let you know how I get on. Should I go for ROBW first?

my opinionation (Hamildan), Monday, 18 April 2011 21:19 (nine years ago) link

Wait until the last collection of the B&R material is out, then alternate reading the two.

mh, Monday, 18 April 2011 23:12 (nine years ago) link

Now it seems we are coming to the end of Morrisons batman run.

wha?

and yes, alternate ROBW and B&R issues

Hypermotard: (sic), Tuesday, 19 April 2011 00:18 (nine years ago) link

read the first ROBW last night. he needs to say "oh boy" after every time jump...

that's my only criticism.

and I think I remember reading that Batman Inc. had taken the character to where Morrison wanted to leave him, and Morrison was off to pastures new. but I think there are probably some golden handcuffs going on where he can do what he wants in DC as long as he brings in the interest & sales in Batman.

my opinionation (Hamildan), Tuesday, 19 April 2011 09:40 (nine years ago) link

Batman Inc is Morrison's own ongoing, he's said he thinks he's got a year or two of stories left in him. (And that everytime he thinks he's getting near the end of Batman, he gets more ideas.)

(Also, Matt Seneca on the gayness of the opening issues.)

Hypermotard: (sic), Tuesday, 19 April 2011 10:26 (nine years ago) link

Big agnostic on Batman Inc after all that -- especially re: Bruce's new playboy character styling -- but that fourth issue was v. v. excellent. I like that Grant's been on Batman for almost five years, but hasn't done a "traditional" Batman story since Gothic.

Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, 19 April 2011 13:47 (nine years ago) link

I normally quite enjoy reading Matt Seneca, but (with respect!) I think he's confusing "queer" with "kinky". At any rate, that comment from "Automatic" is somewhat OTM.

Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, 19 April 2011 13:57 (nine years ago) link

I don't think he is... As he points out, there's is a long tradition of queer readings of books/movies/comics/etc to highlight queer subtexts in texts that appear heteronormative on the surface level. And (whether or not you agree with his intepretation) that's exactly what he's doing there. The way he interprets those panels, they're not just "kinky" (what does that word even mean?), but definitely queer.

Tuomas, Wednesday, 20 April 2011 07:13 (nine years ago) link

Eh, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with reading against the grain, just that Seneca's "Hmm, that kind of looks like a cock!"-level analysis wasn't very deep, and I sort of expected better from him.

Besides, I think Grant puts the queer/kinky/sexy stuff front-and-centre anyway -- I mean, he's just re-outfitted with a giant codpiece. That's not very subtext-y.

Chuck_Tatum, Wednesday, 20 April 2011 14:22 (nine years ago) link

Outside of the fact all the characters portrayed are costume fetishists, I don't think there's any "kink" to be had there, it's all pretty gay.

mh, Wednesday, 20 April 2011 14:24 (nine years ago) link

Besides, I think Grant puts the queer/kinky/sexy stuff front-and-centre anyway

He does - with the characters he himself created, or characters which are minor enough to be (re)made queer without DC objecting to it. But as Seneca points out in his article, Batman and Robin are way too big to be queered on the level of the actual text, DC would never allow it. Hence the subtext.

Tuomas, Wednesday, 20 April 2011 14:31 (nine years ago) link

how is grant morrison's subtextual 'queering' any diff from the subtextual queerness of every other batman comic ever (cf fredric wertham)?

Ward Fowler, Wednesday, 20 April 2011 14:37 (nine years ago) link

Morrison is know to be pro-queer, unlike many/most other Batman writers. Hence details like those mentioned in the article can more easily be interpreted as intentional, not accidental.

Tuomas, Wednesday, 20 April 2011 14:40 (nine years ago) link

how do you know 'most other' batman writers are not 'pro-queer'?

Ward Fowler, Wednesday, 20 April 2011 14:43 (nine years ago) link

I'm not saying they're absolutely not, but Morrison is one of the few who's publically known to be one.

Historically, queer readings of subtexts in "straight" texts have often been informed by the knowledge that one or more of the persons behind the text are queer themselves.

Tuomas, Wednesday, 20 April 2011 14:46 (nine years ago) link

dunno, just seems like a contradiction to me - that 'queerness' can be deduced from a 'close reading' that relies so heavily on extratextual knowledge about an author's private life and feelings and intentions (and of course, what's said in public discourse isn't ALWAYS 100% honest, accurate or reliable.)

Ward Fowler, Wednesday, 20 April 2011 14:54 (nine years ago) link

dunno, just seems like a contradiction to me - that 'queerness' can be deduced from a 'close reading' that relies so heavily on extratextual knowledge about an author's private life and feelings and intentions

Why do you think this is a contradiction? Seems pretty obvious to me that a person's private life affects his art, and authors are known to put all sorts of subtexts into their work.

Tuomas, Wednesday, 20 April 2011 15:10 (nine years ago) link

He does - with the characters he himself created, or characters which are minor enough to be (re)made queer without DC objecting to it. But as Seneca points out in his article, Batman and Robin are way too big to be queered on the level of the actual text, DC would never allow it. Hence the subtext.

no way. Batman and Robin are the most queered characters (and the recipients of queer readings) of any comic book figures. Their entire dynamic (that way precedes Morrison taking them on) is their homoerotic relationship. It's totally silly to say that somehow only Morrison has the courage to queer them.

http://indiana.bilerico.com/2008/07/BatmanRobin.gif

Mordy, Wednesday, 20 April 2011 15:25 (nine years ago) link

x-post

it's not v subtextual if you're depending on the word of the author to validate the supposition that these 'hidden' meanings are there, or are intentional

i don't think this is good criticism because it automatically confers the status of 'truth' on an author's words, and assumes 'intention' is always clear, knowable, speakable. If another Batman writer doesn't publicly declare their 'pro-queer' values, then it seems to negate the possibility that their work is as 'interesting' or subtextually rich as the author who TELLS us so.

Ward Fowler, Wednesday, 20 April 2011 15:26 (nine years ago) link

has anyone seen the cartoon adaptation of All Star Superman...?

The Everybody Buys 1000 Aerosmith Albums A Month Club (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 20 April 2011 17:36 (nine years ago) link

Yeah, it's good. McDuffie (RIP) did a great job with the adaptation.

the wages of sin is about tree fiddy (WmC), Wednesday, 20 April 2011 17:38 (nine years ago) link

He does - with the characters he himself created, or characters which are minor enough to be (re)made queer without DC objecting to it. But as Seneca points out in his article, Batman and Robin are way too big to be queered on the level of the actual text, DC would never allow it. Hence the subtext.

no way. Batman and Robin are the most queered characters (and the recipients of queer readings) of any comic book figures. Their entire dynamic (that way precedes Morrison taking them on) is their homoerotic relationship. It's totally silly to say that somehow only Morrison has the courage to queer them.

I said DC wouldn't allow them to be queer "on the level of the actual text". Sure, there are plenty of queer readings of B&R comics, but they're always about the subtext. Or can you name a single official DC comic where Batman and Robin are explicitly queer? (The panel you posted is not such an example, because back in the day it was not uncommon to portray wholesome male heroes sleeping in the same bed in boys' adventure books and comics.)

Also, I didn't say "only Morrison has the courage to queer" Batman and Robin, I just said that "details like those mentioned in the article can more easily be interpreted as intentional" because of Morrison's previous queer-oriented work. Sure, there might've been other queer Batman writers who've done similar things, but Morrison is the only one I'm aware of.

it's not v subtextual if you're depending on the word of the author to validate the supposition that these 'hidden' meanings are there, or are intentional

i don't think this is good criticism because it automatically confers the status of 'truth' on an author's words, and assumes 'intention' is always clear, knowable, speakable. If another Batman writer doesn't publicly declare their 'pro-queer' values, then it seems to negate the possibility that their work is as 'interesting' or subtextually rich as the author who TELLS us so.

AFAIK know Morrison hasn't told anywhere that his Batman has a queer subtext - Seneca's reading is simply based on the knowledge that Morrison favours queerness in his works, not on any actual admission by Morrison. IMO taking into account the artist's former work and his background is a perfectly valid way of reading texts. If you remove the author and his intentions completely from the equation, you could read any text pretty much any way you want to, which would render any subtext meaningless. Taking the author into account has always been the most popular way of reading texts, and I'm sure most authors are well aware of that. (For example, the various Morrison avatars that appear in his comics are a subtext that would be pointless if we didn't know about Grant Morrison the person outside his comics.) To me it seems perfectly natural to be more attuned to queer subtexts in the works of Oscar Wilde or Tennessee Williams (to use Seneca's two examples) than, say, in the works of Ian Fleming, since you're more likely to find them in the former than in the latter.

Tuomas, Wednesday, 20 April 2011 17:47 (nine years ago) link

Yeah, it's good. McDuffie (RIP) did a great job with the adaptation.

It was okay, but if you've read the comics it doesn't really add anything new to them, as it follows them almost verbatim, except for dropping a few subplots (such as the Bizarro planet one). Also, it doesn't include anything from "Neverending" (issue #10), which is kinda understandable, as that issue doesn't have to do with the main plot, but it's also sad because #10 is perhaps the best single Superman story ever.

That said, I think the movie actually improved upon the ending of the comic by changing Luthor's role in it in a small but significant way. I won't spoil it by saying anything more.

Tuomas, Wednesday, 20 April 2011 17:54 (nine years ago) link

I want the Blu-ray just to hear Grant and Bruce Timm's commentary track.

EZ Snappin, Wednesday, 20 April 2011 17:59 (nine years ago) link

Tuomas, I think we might (in part) be having a linguistic difference here, because I would never use the word 'subtext' to describe, say, the Morrison 'avatar' in Animal Man (and I think that character functions perfectly well without the reader needing to known anything about the 'real' Grant Morrison.) I still believe you're seriously overestimating the 'daring' or whatever of Morrison's 'queer Batman' - and you picked a very poor example in Ian Fleming, whose work is FULL of queer subtext (and foretext), more than almost any other 20th Century popular writer.

Also, 'reading any text pretty much any way you want to' is to my mind the whole pleasure and point of reading/writing abt other texts. Death to the tyranny of the author, here's to the reader's liberation movement etc etc

Ward Fowler, Wednesday, 20 April 2011 22:36 (nine years ago) link

IMO those early Morrison issues are so lightweight that if he wasn't playing with some subtextual themes, they're borderline mediocre.

mh, Wednesday, 20 April 2011 23:13 (nine years ago) link

because I would never use the word 'subtext' to describe, say, the Morrison 'avatar' in Animal Man (and I think that character functions perfectly well without the reader needing to known anything about the 'real' Grant Morrison.)

The AM avatar is the only exception, IMO, because in that comic it is flat out spelled that he is Morrison, so he is an author avatar on the level of the text, not subtext. All his other avatar characters certainly function well enough on their own as unique characters (that's the surface level of the text), but the subtext is that they are also Morrison's avatars, and knowing that subtext makes many of those characters, as well as Morrison's whole body of work, more interesting. And my point was that it's hard to see that subtext unless you're at least somewhat familiar with Morrison outside his comics. Sure, you can say "death to the author!", but cases like this one prove that taking the author into account can provide for a deeper reading experience.

Anyway, I guess you're right that picking up Fleming as an counter-example was bad choice, because I've only read one of his books, and that was years ago. But my point still holds: it makes more sense to look for queer subtexts in the works of artists who are known to be queer, since you're more likely to find them there, and said subtexts are often more obvious too. I'm not saying you can't find such subtexts in the works of "straight" artists, my point was just that knowing Morrison's background makes it easier to interpret things like the panels Seneca pointed out as an intentional subtext.

Tuomas, Thursday, 21 April 2011 06:33 (nine years ago) link

one month passes...

read a galley copy of his new book over the weekend - mostly a very entertaining history/overview of American and British superhero comics. Some choice barbs for Alan Moore and the Image guys. I started to skip some stuff towards the end when it got into more auto-bio territory, but his take on the various periods are generally great, insightful, and really funny.

metally ill (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 31 May 2011 17:55 (nine years ago) link

Didn't know about this. Any idea when it's coming out?

Number None, Tuesday, 31 May 2011 17:57 (nine years ago) link

Yeah, I want this as soon as I can get it.

:: checks amazon ::

Supergods? July 19th?

what made my hamburger disappear (WmC), Tuesday, 31 May 2011 18:08 (nine years ago) link

Cool. Will anticipate

Number None, Tuesday, 31 May 2011 18:13 (nine years ago) link

Amazon has this to say about the upcoming Flex Mentallo

Collected for the first time, an early classic from the ALL-STAR SUPERMAN team of Grant Morrison and Frank Quitely, newly recolored.

What's up with that? IIRC the colours in the original comic are perfectly fine.

Tuomas, Wednesday, 1 June 2011 07:29 (nine years ago) link

different paper stock to blame maybe?

metally ill (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 1 June 2011 15:57 (nine years ago) link

Pretty sure that they're recoloring it for the stock and to update it. I seem to recall that the same person who is recoloring WE3 is doing it, but might be misremembering. I'll be happy to have it all in one place but will treasure the single issues (and I can't say that about many books now.)

Matt M., Wednesday, 1 June 2011 21:48 (nine years ago) link

I currently treasure my .cbr's so i'll be happy to get a physical copy

Number None, Wednesday, 1 June 2011 21:49 (nine years ago) link

That's how I read it first, actually. Also the first files I loaded onto my digital reading device thingy.

Matt M., Wednesday, 1 June 2011 23:17 (nine years ago) link

So has anyone been able to work out whether Batmoz is going to be completely fucked up by the new DC plans? It seems as though it can't help but be, despite various assurances otherwise.

Apparently Batman Inc will take a hiatus once it gets to the point of the reboot, and will then return in 2012 as a mini-series. It's unclear at the moment if Morrison can set the story in the continuity he established, or if the reboot changes will be in effect.

Duane Barry, Wednesday, 8 June 2011 00:11 (nine years ago) link

Apparently Dick is going to be Nightwing again? I don't know, it sounds to me like DC is fucking over Batmoz and he'll leave all the titles soon.

mh, Wednesday, 8 June 2011 00:14 (nine years ago) link

would rather have Inc continue than a new-continuity Superman title tbh

all cats are gay (sic), Wednesday, 8 June 2011 01:33 (nine years ago) link

Bruce Wayne will be the only Batmang. I can't say that any of the Bat-teams really inspired confidence, aside from LEVIATHAN eventually happening.

Matt M., Wednesday, 8 June 2011 04:40 (nine years ago) link

I've liked most of Morrison's Batman run, but I'm still hella excited about his new Superman gig. IMO Supes, much more than Batman, is a character he was born to write. Have they confirmed the artist(s) for his Superman, though? (Obviously it can't be Quitely, since it's a montly title.)

Tuomas, Wednesday, 8 June 2011 10:58 (nine years ago) link

This whole leviathan thing is going to be able to happen before DC fucks with the books, right?

mh, Wednesday, 8 June 2011 14:46 (nine years ago) link

After. DC reboot is September, Leviathan is next year.

EZ Snappin, Wednesday, 8 June 2011 15:08 (nine years ago) link

:(

mh, Wednesday, 8 June 2011 15:08 (nine years ago) link

I have no problems with a reboot, but (viz. Wildstorm) just that they're wildly inept at them. Just need better creators and editorial direction.

Chuck_Tatum, Wednesday, 8 June 2011 15:40 (nine years ago) link

two months pass...

from the intro to Big Perp's section of the chunky, clunky three-part Rolling Stone feature on Morrison:

This is a guide to the highlights of his career, with the exception of his fantastically strange Flex Mentallo series with artist Frank Quitely, which has not yet been collected in paperback due to complicated legal issues.

so he genuinely thinks Joe The Barbarian is better than Big Dave and New Adventures Of Hitler and St Swithins Day and Zenith and A Glass Of Water and The World Shapers and New Toys? pffffffffft.

Ellen Allien ... in my urethra? (sic), Wednesday, 24 August 2011 10:16 (eight years ago) link

Plus Flex will be back in print in a few months, right?

EZ Snappin, Wednesday, 24 August 2011 10:33 (eight years ago) link

it's actually been in print in paperback in Europe for years, so that caveat doesn't even strictly hold. but I wouldn't believe anything about a DC collection until I hold one in my hands.

Ellen Allien ... in my urethra? (sic), Wednesday, 24 August 2011 10:52 (eight years ago) link

Is New Adventures of Hitler or Zenith collected in Europe? I've only ever had the chance to read bad scans.

EZ Snappin, Wednesday, 24 August 2011 10:53 (eight years ago) link

Nope. I think there was a collection of NAOAH at one stage, but it is now out of print. There were several volumes of Zenith (but not the resolution of the long running story about The Plan) brought out by Titan, but they are out of print too.

Around the time he was setting up his FA website, Martin Skidmore mentioned that there was some talk of a new Zenith collection coming into print, but that does not seem to have happened.

Thanks to my local British Isles copyright library, I re-read all the Zenith collections they had last summer (for an article for FA I never got round to writing). I ended up thinking that it starts off well but that the loads of superheroes from alternate worlds get together to fight the Lloigor was not quite all that. It seemed a bit of a mess, plotwise, seeming to be an early case of the Grant Morrison problem (his writing stories that are very hard to follow for people like me of only sub-average intelligence).

I was a bit ambivalent about all the "oh there is that obscure British comic character" cameos in it... on the one hand, this is the kind of thing that annoys me about LOEG, but on the other, it was great to see some of those crazy characters get an outing again.

That said, I really hope that someone does bring out a complete Zenith collection. When it is good, it is amazing, and Steve Yeowell is a great artist on it.

The New Dirty Vicar, Wednesday, 24 August 2011 11:38 (eight years ago) link

Hitler's never been collected.

The first volume of a new to-be-complete round of Zenith collections was printed around ten years ago, sat in a warehouse for about eight years, then supposedly got pulped*. The Titan ones covered the first three "Phase"s of Zenith in five paperbacks; Phases 1 and 2 were also reprinted in 2000AD Super Specials or suchlike after the paperbacks went OOP; the colour stuff has never been reprinted.

*Morrison pointed out to Rebellion that Fleetway didn't actually own Zenith.

Ellen Allien ... in my urethra? (sic), Wednesday, 24 August 2011 12:25 (eight years ago) link

A shame that neither is readily available. I really enjoyed what I read and would gladly pay for nice editions of both.

EZ Snappin, Wednesday, 24 August 2011 13:07 (eight years ago) link

This new deluxe version of We3 is really nice. I didn't really notice the additions, but the print quality and extras are great.

unwarranted display names of ilx (mh), Wednesday, 24 August 2011 14:14 (eight years ago) link

I do hope that movie gets made.

L.P. Hovercraft (WmC), Wednesday, 24 August 2011 14:32 (eight years ago) link

Reading that RS article--there's no way, on that evidence, that I'll be reading Supergods... and I LOVED Animal Man, Doom Patrol, Flex, Invisibles, AS Superman, etc etc

not bulimic, just a cat (James Morrison), Thursday, 25 August 2011 05:39 (eight years ago) link

I'm planning to read the autobio stuff and barely skim his disingenuously inaccurate early-decades-of-superheroes stuff.

rude ragga beats from the F. U. Schnickens (sic), Thursday, 25 August 2011 14:09 (eight years ago) link

I haven't read the RS article but I liked Supergods!

unwarranted display names of ilx (mh), Thursday, 25 August 2011 14:34 (eight years ago) link

his disingenuously inaccurate early-decades-of-superheroes stuff.

this was the part I preferred, tbh

wow

This review actually guarantees I'll be making my purchase of issue #8 (and soon - like after work) a priority.

Flaca (R Baez), Thursday, 25 August 2011 16:44 (eight years ago) link

haha that looks awesome!

RT @jollybaez: A glimpse at some of the new artwork from the expanded deluxe WE3!

Flaca (R Baez), Thursday, 25 August 2011 22:36 (eight years ago) link

this was the part I preferred, tbh

lying about Siegel & Shuster to shill for his employers during the lawsuit is gross to me, so

rude ragga beats from the F. U. Schnickens (sic), Friday, 26 August 2011 01:03 (eight years ago) link

Wtf is that new WE3 panel? It doesn't even look like Quitely's art. And how does it fit into the story?

Tuomas, Friday, 26 August 2011 08:34 (eight years ago) link

that's a joke, it's from the new issue of Inc

rude ragga beats from the F. U. Schnickens (sic), Friday, 26 August 2011 10:39 (eight years ago) link

Ah, okay.

Tuomas, Friday, 26 August 2011 11:03 (eight years ago) link

lying about Siegel & Shuster to shill for his employers during the lawsuit is gross to me, so

What did he say? I don't recall this at all, so I'm thinking I must have missed something potentially interesting.

EZ Snappin, Friday, 26 August 2011 12:00 (eight years ago) link

yeah I don't recall that either...?

That's the dick move? I read that interview and it seemed pretty damn innocuous.

Whatever.

EZ Snappin, Friday, 26 August 2011 16:48 (eight years ago) link

Even that quote doesn't seem like he's being a dick, only that he doesn't delve into the reasons why Bob Kane got a good deal at that point. Kane was the outlier, not S&S! I thought that was pretty clear when I read it.

I think he also mentions that Bill Finger was rather screwed over by history and finances.

unwarranted display names of ilx (mh), Friday, 26 August 2011 20:05 (eight years ago) link

it's the context of totally glossing over them being fucked, 1) while a lawsuit is going on that DC are paying lawyers more to file paper on every month than they ever paid S&S while they were alive, and 2) Grant is actively redesigning Superman's costume and origin to be potentially legally distinct from the S&S creation, while being 3) ickily disingenuous about their situation, that I find unpleasant.

rude ragga beats from the F. U. Schnickens (sic), Saturday, 27 August 2011 04:09 (eight years ago) link

So he's supposed to just avoid the franchise right now due to a lawsuit, or forever?

unwarranted display names of ilx (mh), Saturday, 27 August 2011 04:37 (eight years ago) link

he can make whatever employment decisions he chooses, I'm not talking about that. I'm saying I personally find it distasteful to lie about the situation of creators of said franchise in this context, and thusly find his position on the backstage history of early superhero comics untenably compromised and proven inaccurate, so I'm unlikely to even read those aspects of the book.

rude ragga beats from the F. U. Schnickens (sic), Saturday, 27 August 2011 06:56 (eight years ago) link

So you're saying you haven't read those parts of the book, or what he actually said? I think he's a little vague, but I think people are stirring the bucket and reading more into it than is there.

unwarranted display names of ilx (mh), Saturday, 27 August 2011 17:47 (eight years ago) link

I have really enjoyed Supergords, it's got everything you love about Morrison comics: big ideas, lots of heart inconsistently spread out, misdirected spite, and glossing over of elements he finds boring or inconvenient. Not surprised that he has little sympathy/empathy for S&S considering the jackpot he scored with Arkham Asylum, which succeeded more because it was published at the absolute height of Keaton/Burton Bat-Mania than on its own merits. As humble as his writing/cartooning beginnings may be, the ordeal of Siegel & Shuster beyond his imagination. Which is a pity, considering his fascinations.

like working at a jewelry store and not knowing about bracelets (Dr. Superman), Saturday, 27 August 2011 18:45 (eight years ago) link

one month passes...

Caleb Mozzocco stirs the bucket.

robocop last year was a 'shop (sic), Wednesday, 5 October 2011 08:39 (eight years ago) link

I wasn't super-impressed with that, actually

boxorox (Drugs A. Money), Friday, 14 October 2011 06:05 (eight years ago) link

Morrison to put the sex back into Wonder Woman comics --

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/10/13/grant-morrisons-wonder-woman-series-planned-for-2012-or-thereabouts/

Antonio Carlos Broheem (WmC), Friday, 14 October 2011 14:31 (eight years ago) link

Just finished Supergods. Overall, I thought it was entirely inessential. It seemed to me like two books rather poorly integrated; his life through and in comics, and an overview of superheroes. I enjoyed reading the sections where he talked about what inspired him along the way, but thought he gave little insight into his own work (except for his admitted chickening out on pushing Final Crisis as far as he had initially planned), and his overall "history of the superhero" is, um, unique.

EZ Snappin, Friday, 14 October 2011 17:04 (eight years ago) link

eight months pass...

Grant just got an MBE.

EZ Snappin, Saturday, 16 June 2012 01:48 (eight years ago) link

I wonder if he's gonna give the Queen the issues of Inivisibles where he honours the royal family...

On a more serious note, is he the first superhero comic writer to get one of those? Do Gaiman or Moore have one?

Tuomas, Saturday, 16 June 2012 08:06 (eight years ago) link

Moore would turn it down, surely. (but that then raises the question of whether he'd say publically he'd turned it down, which is bad form iirc.)

woof, Saturday, 16 June 2012 09:30 (eight years ago) link

five years pass...

I've read it twice now, very slowly and carefully the second time, and I think Nameless is up there with his best stuff. Which is nice, given I thought he wouldn't produce anything that good again. A fair bit of the credit definitely goes to Chris Burnham, though.

albvivertine, Monday, 5 March 2018 18:55 (two years ago) link

one year passes...

ok lol
http://i.imgur.com/cmzDlhV.png

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Wednesday, 5 June 2019 21:20 (one year ago) link

Wow! Is Morrison writing GL now, or is that just a one-off gig?

Tuomas, Friday, 7 June 2019 06:43 (one year ago) link

No, GM is writing one of the GL books. IMO it's not really lived up to the hype, some neat ideas but really doesn't hold together - it's more like a handful of 2000ad ideas in search of a character.

Elitist cheese photos (aldo), Friday, 7 June 2019 08:54 (one year ago) link

It's pretty silly but I like it! It's like Batman Incorporated In Space (although not quite as good as that sounds). It's the first thing he's done since Batman that I've enjoyed. although Liam Sharp doesn't really do anything for me - it's a bit sub-Gene Ha.

Chuck_Tatum, Friday, 7 June 2019 18:42 (one year ago) link

This cover sums it up really

https://files1.comics.org//img/gcd/covers_by_id/1237/w400/1237279.jpg

Chuck_Tatum, Friday, 7 June 2019 18:46 (one year ago) link

ASTOUNDING Sci-Fi style Green Lantern as dopey police procedural sums it up pretty well; I'm having a great time with it! The art is maybe overly florid in a Bart Sears way but it gets the job done.

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Friday, 7 June 2019 19:35 (one year ago) link

would it be possible to execute the good and funny idea for a superhero cover any worse than they have done there?

quelle sprocket damage (sic), Friday, 7 June 2019 20:30 (one year ago) link

(like, there are many ways that you could make it just as bad. but from art to trade dress to layout to lettering, every element collaborates to render the dynamism and joke utterly inert

quelle sprocket damage (sic), Friday, 7 June 2019 20:32 (one year ago) link

not sure what the "'joke" is exactly but the covers seem like (occasionally witless) stabs at pulp homage more than anything. computer coloring certainly doesn't help.

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Friday, 7 June 2019 20:37 (one year ago) link

the junkie cover is clearly a terrible defenestration of something that could have been much funnier

the god one tickles me, ugly fonts and all

Chuck_Tatum, Friday, 7 June 2019 21:05 (one year ago) link

It's Liam Sharp, guys, govern yr expectations.

Fiat Earther (Old Lunch), Friday, 7 June 2019 23:25 (one year ago) link

Not that we saw this contextless cover itt with any expectations, but a) Sharp isn’t responsible for the rigid trade dress, right-to-left layout, bad balloon, awkward speech lettering, mixed fonts or font choices, and b) why do DC keep lumbering Morrison with primary artists who draw lumbering steroid cases & have no sense of humour or wit?

Case was a good match on Doom Patrol and Burnham was a gift from the heavens, perhaps the most “gets it” artist Morrison has ever had on any ongoing project, but apart from that the chasm between artists he brings himself and ones that DC assign to him is yawping.

quelle sprocket damage (sic), Saturday, 8 June 2019 00:28 (one year ago) link

See also: Quitely (obvs), Cameron Stewart

Fiat Earther (Old Lunch), Saturday, 8 June 2019 01:22 (one year ago) link

Quitely he brought himself; Stewart campaigned to get his Invisibles fill-in.

quelle sprocket damage (sic), Saturday, 8 June 2019 09:05 (one year ago) link

Just checked, and Morrison invited Burnham to do his first 7-page fill-in after seeing Officer Downe; DC signed Burnham to a 2-year contract after his first full issue. Shoulda figured.

quelle sprocket damage (sic), Saturday, 8 June 2019 09:12 (one year ago) link


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