Prince Albert Pujols, he reigneth

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...despite Steve Shasta's insinuations.

Jonah Keri from Prospectus:


If you’re looking for a counting stat to measure the first five years of a player’s career, BP’s Wins Above Replacement Player (WARP) stat does the trick. The WARP-3 stat allows us to further adjust performance so that all players are measured on the same level of per-162 games played. WARP takes into account defensive performance, something EqA does not. It can also be used to measure pitchers’ performance, thus opening up the list of possible Top-10 candidates. The leaders:

WARP3 in their first 5 years:

1. Ted Williams 61.7 (1939-42, 46)
2. Arky Vaughan 58.0
3. ALBERT PUJOLS 54.9
4. Joe DiMaggio 53.5
5. Jackie Robinson 53.3
6. Pete Alexander 52.6
7. Amos Rusie 49.9
8. Wade Boggs 49.6
9. Tom Seaver 49.3
10. Jeff Bagwell 48.8

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 5 May 2006 19:06 (thirteen years ago) link

Colour me ignorant, but I've never heard of Arky Vaughan!

Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Friday, 5 May 2006 19:19 (thirteen years ago) link

My insinuation:

Nobody came close to Maris' record until McGwire, Sosa and Bonds... all of whom have been publically tried and sentenced for alleged PED abuse.

Pujols is currently on pace to demolish all of their marks, so why should he be free of any rumors/accusations?

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Friday, 5 May 2006 19:26 (thirteen years ago) link

1. Because unlike the triumvirate you mentioned, all of whom were formerly skinny before bulking up quite suddenly, Pujols has always just been a huge muscled person. (If I am wrong, please correct me.)

2. Because two of these people fell out of baseball very quickly (one to injuries, one to falling the eff off and being blackballed) and the third has had an entire book published detailing court transcripts about his (ALLEGED I KNOW) steroid usage. Pujols is still in the game, still strong, and hasn't tested positive for anything.

Haikunym (Haikunym), Friday, 5 May 2006 19:40 (thirteen years ago) link

Arky Vaughan was a Pittsburgh SS, named by Richard Nixon to his personal All-Time team in 1969.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 5 May 2006 20:02 (thirteen years ago) link

"Pujols is currently on pace to demolish all of their marks, so why should he be free of any rumors/accusations?"

Cuz he hasn't done it yet for one thing. Plenty of people have gotten off to ridiculously hot starts and cooled. And everyone suspects that at least part of this hot start is aided by juiced balls and a rather easy opening schedule for the Cards. Plus there is the added fact that Pujols is 26 and has always been pretty close to this ridiculously good unlike "I turn 38 and become absurdly better than I ever have been before" Bonds and "We don't look much like our rookie baseball cards no more" McMark and SaSosa. Just saying.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 5 May 2006 20:38 (thirteen years ago) link

Alex dont you know
that Pujols IS thirty-eight!
come on man catch up

Haikunym (Haikunym), Friday, 5 May 2006 20:42 (thirteen years ago) link

No offense to Steve Shasters but I trust Dayne Perry more than I trust him.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 5 May 2006 20:44 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah no problem dude
trust FOX SPORTS over fair
and balanced shasta

Haikunym (Haikunym), Friday, 5 May 2006 20:51 (thirteen years ago) link

I'd like to see someone run those age comparisons (I guess PECOTA would be best for this, really) with his stated age and his rumored age (28) and see how much difference actually exists. If his body type and skill set lend themself to a long career into his 40s, those two years might be irrelevant no matter what the truth is. If his comparables are a bunch of big sluggers who dropped rapidly after age 32 (or 34, etc.), then two years is a big deal.

milo z (mlp), Friday, 5 May 2006 20:53 (thirteen years ago) link

Colour me ignorant, but I've never heard of Arky Vaughan!

After Honus Wagner (clearly the greatest shortstop ever), he's routinely cited as one of the top two or three shortstops ever, even though he isn't nearly as famous as a host of other guys. But I wouldn't have pegged Arky Vaughn for 2nd on that list.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/v/vaughar01.shtml

Keep in mind that WARP3 measures performance relative to others at the same position. In that respect, Vaughn hit out of his mind for a shortstop (check out those Ruth/Williams-worthy OBPs), and the 30's were a weak decade for shortstops.

Pujols is currently on pace to demolish all of their marks, so why should he be free of any rumors/accusations?

I know that this question is somewhat rhetorical, and it feels like everyone is recycling their comments from other threads ... but anyway:

-- 20-year male athletes are skinny. All of you were probably skinny when you were 20. Athletes bulk up as they get older. This is normal. Athletes' bodies fill out throughout their 20's and 30's. This is normal. Looking like a beast when you're only 21 (Pujols' supposed age in his rookie year) is not normal.

-- In light of the above comment, improvements in medicine and training, not to mention the tremendous amount of money to be made in pro sports now (compared to 10-20 years ago, even) have led to more athletes (in many sports) getting bigger at an earlier age. Lifting weights was strongly frowned upon by baseball players throughout the history of the game. It only started gaining acceptance in the 1990's. It doesn't matter who you believe was on the juice -- you still gotta lift weights when you're on steroids, and that wasn't part of the culture until very recently. So it's pointless to say that Bonds/Mac/Sosa/etc. looked different at the start of their careers because bulking up just wasn't done when they were coming up through the system. You can't argue "Bonds put on lots of weight and Pujols hasn't, therefore this 'proves' that Bonds juiced but Pujols didn't because it must be his natural body type." No, they grew up in different times.

So why isn't Pujols surrounded by steroid rumours? Like I've said before -- cleaning up the game is a distant priority for MLB. Their main concern is cleaning up the game's image. You can accomplish the latter by scapegoating a few big stars. The former task is a lot more difficult because you have to do a thorough investigation into the role that steroids played in the game, how widespread the problem was (or is), and what effect steroids had on what we saw happening on the field. Selig doesn't have the patience for that. The Bonds Witchunt is supposed to convince people that MLB is "dealing" with the problem (which they aren't -- they're only "dealing" with Bonds). Once enough people believe that, they can proclaim that the game is clean and return to wilful ignorance (and therefore Pujols couldn't possibly be using drugs, and if he was, Selig doesn't need to know about it).

NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Saturday, 6 May 2006 01:00 (thirteen years ago) link

The craziest thing about that Arky Vaughn B-R page is the fact that he didn't get inducted into the HOF until 1985!?!?!

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Saturday, 6 May 2006 01:47 (thirteen years ago) link

I know this is going to come off as very controversial but I am of the opinion that weight training, with or without the benefit of PEDs, gives you *gulp* muscles. I may be a pariah for believing this, knowing all of you have achieved your svelte buffed figures via mere stagnation and well wishing, so feel free to mock me.

I'm also glad that all those strappingly cut "look nothing like their rookie card" minor league middle relievers that are getting busted every week for PEDs are built they way they are, otherwise how else would we know they were "obviously juicing"?

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Saturday, 6 May 2006 02:15 (thirteen years ago) link

well, Arky Vaughan dint play in NY (or for pennant winners).

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 6 May 2006 16:55 (thirteen years ago) link

(aside from the swan song in Brooklyn obv)

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 6 May 2006 17:12 (thirteen years ago) link

I'm pretty much suspicious of everyone these days, Steve Shasta! Steroids policy is still a joke, considering all the things it cannot test for, so I am of the opinion that PEDs are still running rampant. Whole era is tainted to me, and I'll never be able to take any records from it seriously, pretty much.

ALLAH FROG (Mingus Dew), Saturday, 6 May 2006 22:41 (thirteen years ago) link

Arky Pwn. Also: ^ OTM ^

Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 6 May 2006 23:56 (thirteen years ago) link

So either PujLOLZ was abnormally large as a rookie and therefore on the juice or he was skinny as a rookie and then got on the juice.

bnw (bnw), Sunday, 7 May 2006 06:45 (thirteen years ago) link

So it's pointless to say that Bonds/Mac/Sosa/etc. looked different at the start of their careers because bulking up just wasn't done when they were coming up through the system.

Problem is, aside from Roger Clemens, I can't think of many players who's bodies changed so dramatically during the "bulking up" craze.

bnw (bnw), Sunday, 7 May 2006 06:56 (thirteen years ago) link

Lots of athletes are
big and strong at 20 here
IN THE USA

Albert Pujols did
not look like a "beast" back then;
a large human, yes.

ALLAHFROG, if you
do not trust baseball at all,
then why do you care?

Haikunym (Haikunym), Sunday, 7 May 2006 12:39 (thirteen years ago) link

If PEDs are running rampant, then everyone's on a level playing field and the records would be legit, no?

milo z (mlp), Sunday, 7 May 2006 15:10 (thirteen years ago) link

Problems (among many) with dismissing all records from this era:

Why should I not dismiss all pitching records before 1969 (before they lowered the mound)?

Why should I not dismiss the balk records set in 1988 (when it was widely known that the umps were going to call a lot of them, the rules were relaxed the very next season)?

Why should I not dismiss every home run record set after (or before, depending on your viewpoint) 1920, when the ball was known to be juiced? Or what about home runs hit in 1987 -- one of several years in which the ball was reportedly re-juiced?

Why should I not dismiss the HOF resumes of every hitter who reached his prime in the 1930's (a hitting era that puts the late 90's to shame)?

NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Sunday, 7 May 2006 16:48 (thirteen years ago) link

Because despite it all, I still love the game, Haiku. Milo, running rampant would not = 100%. Even a number like 10-20% I would consider a huge problem, and who knows what it really is? The only people who will be caught by the current testing are either those foolish enough to continue using those substances it can detect, or players unable to afford the designer stuff but willing to take the risk anyways. Vast majority of those that have been caught are minor leaguers that would fall into that second category. No surprise to me.

ALLAH FROG (Mingus Dew), Sunday, 7 May 2006 17:03 (thirteen years ago) link

i'm surprised no one's mentioned (or maybe they have and i haven't seen it) mlb's big cocaine crackdown in the 80s. i remember seeing dale berra, dave parker and keith hernandez on the news when they testified in fed court.

we tend to remember only doc gooden, the straw man and steve howe...maybe lamar hoyt, but the investigations and suspensions were pretty wide ranging. and i also remember a lot of guys being accused of using coke, though nothing was ever proven (eric davis is the biggest name i can think of).

jonathan quayle higgins (j.q. higgins), Sunday, 7 May 2006 17:07 (thirteen years ago) link

Why should I not dismiss every home run record set after (or before, depending on your viewpoint) 1920, when the ball was known to be juiced
I don't know if you're referring specifically to 1920 here or not, but it's actually a myth that the ball changed between the deadball era and the live-ball era.

I'd have to look through my books for the citation, but I read that with some interest just a couple of weeks ago. They did analyses of balls from both eras and found no real differences to account for the HR discrepancies. It comes down to hitting styles, park changes, the loss of specialty pitches (shineball, spitball, etc. being phased out as players retired) and on down the line.

milo z (mlp), Sunday, 7 May 2006 18:19 (thirteen years ago) link

Interesting ... I thought that c.1920 was the only *admitted* change in the ball in the game's history (despite several other rumoured changes), but I'm definitely intrigued by this article you read. To add to your list: after 1920 or so, they stopped using only 3-4 balls/game.

But my main point still stands -- comparing post-1920 offense (particularly 1920-1940) with 1900-1920 offense is nearly impossible. There was an offensive explosion after 1920, but we don't view the live ball era as "tainted" in any way. It was just a different style of play.

NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Sunday, 7 May 2006 19:15 (thirteen years ago) link

I found more information stating that the new cork center (the live ball) was introduced in 1910 and there were attendant jumps in offense, though not HRs in 1911 before pitchers learned gimmick deliveries/pitches and brought offense back down until after the Great War.

But, yeah, your point is certainly correct - and that leaves out the biggest trump card of all time - Babe Ruth never had to play against Martin Dihigo or John Donaldson and without the color line we could very well be talking about Josh Gibson as the greatest hitter in baseball history.

milo z (mlp), Sunday, 7 May 2006 19:25 (thirteen years ago) link

17/34*162 = 81

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 15:21 (thirteen years ago) link

without the color line we could very well be talking about Josh Gibson as the greatest hitter in baseball history.

Couldn't it just as easily have been someone from Japan or Cuba or wherever else? Babe Ruth is the greatest hitter in the history of Major League Baseball, whether you compare him to his era OR whether you take his stats alone. Josh Gibson never played Major League Baseball, and neither did, say, Saduhara Oh. Saduhara Oh played against allegedly watered down players, but so did Josh Gibson. If Gibson played in the major leagues, there's no way to know whether he would have hit 400 home runs for his career or 800.

polyphonic (polyphonic), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 15:36 (thirteen years ago) link

omg you forgetting black playas >>>> white players!!

c(''c) (Leee), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 16:27 (thirteen years ago) link

"Saduhara Oh played against allegedly watered down players, but so did Josh Gibson. If Gibson played in the major leagues, there's no way to know whether he would have hit 400 home runs for his career or 800."

The point is that Ruth PLAYED against watered-down players too though! And I find the argument that Gibson would have hit only 400 home runs in the ML pretty suspect esp. considering how a lot of the Negro Leaguers stars performed in the ML when they finally got there. Would Gibson have been as good as Babe Ruth in an integrated ML? Probably not. But would Ruth have been as good as Ruth in an integrated ML? Also probably not.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 16:43 (thirteen years ago) link

In what year did the ground rule double stop being counted as a homerun?

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 16:48 (thirteen years ago) link

Would Gibson have been as good as Babe Ruth in an integrated ML? Probably not. But would Ruth have been as good as Ruth in an integrated ML? Also probably not.

I don't know about that. I mean, to this day, there are very few good African American pitchers. I mean, who is to say that Barry Bonds would have 700+ hr if he had to hit against great pitchers such as, say, Donovan McNabb, Michael Jordan, or Jarome Iginla? While there were a core of excellent pitchers in the Negro Leagues, there were also a ton of guys who wouldn't have made a roster, and Ruth, Bonds, Gibson, et al. have always done most of their work against the worst pitchers in the league, not against the Satchel Paiges and Bob Gibsons of the world.

In fact, you could probably make the case that an integrated league would equate to lowered offensive production across the board.

(Yes, I know that I'm rambling and not really making a cohesive argument. I'm sick, give me a break.)

polyphonic (polyphonic), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 16:51 (thirteen years ago) link

Herr Shasta, it was 1930 or so. However, of Ruth's 714 HRs, exactly 0 of them were of the bounced-over-the-fence variety. [From last night's post-game Giants wrap.]

c(''c) (Leee), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 17:02 (thirteen years ago) link

Another titbit: back then, if the winning run was on base in the ninth and you homered, you would only get credit for a single. This happened to Ruth exactly 1 time(s).

c(''c) (Leee), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 17:05 (thirteen years ago) link

Okay I don't know how many quality pitchers there were in the Negro Leagues, but even it just amounted to each team being able to replace their weakest starter with an average or above average starter (and I think that's pretty conservative estimate since there were only 16 or so teams) that's still 100 or so at bats not against the weakest pitchers in the league. I have to believe that would suppress Ruth's offense some.

I think league wide the offense would probably have gone up though. Most of the most famous Negro Leaguers were hitters and I imagine the difference in their value over the players they were replacing would be higher than the pitchers (although who knows once you calculate defense blah blah.)

Also the reasons why there are so few African-American pitchers (and PLAYERS) now has a lot to do with a number of recent changes in the way youth talent is developed (and how that relates to race/economics) and most (if not all) of those changes are relatively recent.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 17:09 (thirteen years ago) link

I thought it was the other way around, i.e. runner on 2nd in the bottom of the ninth of a tie game, batter hits the ball over the fence but it only counts as a double and the home team wins by one run. I think Ruth lost two or three home runs this way.

xpost

The spread in ability between the best and worst players in baseball has decreased significantly since the days of Ruth and Cobb. In other words, the best players don't dominate the competition to the same degree that they did in the 1920's (Barry Bonds is a freakish exception, as you all know). I'm sure that the segregation of the game was a big reason for this ... larger pool of talent -> pitching AND hitting ability both increase -> less room for stragglers on the lower extreme of the talent distribution curve.

NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 17:09 (thirteen years ago) link

Ruth never hit a ground-rule double in his entire career????

Tracey Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 17:31 (thirteen years ago) link

Lee, I'd like to see that data you've got!

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 17:34 (thirteen years ago) link

Meanwhile back on topic:

18/34.5*162 = 85

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 17:41 (thirteen years ago) link

I got all this from last night's Giants post-game! So if you don't believe the word of a couple ex-jocks, then I don't see any hope for this world anymore. (I think Jon Miller referred to a booky book last night with these sorts of stats about Ruth, don't remember the title, though.)

Krukow surmised that Ruth's lack of automatic doubles was because stadiums had not warning tracks; instead, the balls had to bounce off of grass. Then the play-by-play guy who went to Stanford (STATHEAD OMG) deep-sixed this theory, because plenty of other chumps were hitting ground-rule homers.

c(''c) (Leee), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 17:48 (thirteen years ago) link

Ruth's lack of ground rule doubles probably had a lot to do with his being a left-handed hitter in a stadium with a ridiculously short LF porch and an even more ridiculously expansive CF with virtually no fence for a ball to bounce over.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 17:51 (thirteen years ago) link

RF porch, ahem.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 17:52 (thirteen years ago) link

Keith Olbermann said yesterday that Ruth lost one home-run with the walk-off triple rule, but could have lost upwards of 80 from the way foul balls used to be called - if it left the fences fair but wound up fall, it was called foul by the umpire (deadly for a pull hitter like Ruth, who was taking advantage of that RF porch). He got that from one of the SABR researchers.

Couldn't it just as easily have been someone from Japan or Cuba or wherever else? Babe Ruth is the greatest hitter in the history of Major League Baseball, whether you compare him to his era OR whether you take his stats alone.
Yes, it was rhetorical. Martin Dihigo was a Cuban player who played all eight field positions at a high rate and was a slightly-below-great pitcher as well. Pop Lloyd, Oscar Charleston, etc. etc. etc. - there

Josh Gibson never played Major League Baseball, and neither did, say, Saduhara Oh. Saduhara Oh played against allegedly watered down players, but so did Josh Gibson. If Gibson played in the major leagues, there's no way to know whether he would have hit 400 home runs for his career or 800.
That's why I said we 'could be'. What we do know is that the talent pool for both players was more questionable than the one facing Pujols or Bonds (and, I mean, there are questions about whether the stars of the 1920s could even get on the field with modern athletes).

Another thing to remember is that Negro League players were often playing in leftover deadball era parks, and none of them played in parks that were tailor-made to their abilities (ala Ruth's porch in Yankee Stadium, the Red Sox pulling in left field 10-15 feet to benefit Ted Williams).

Japanese records are significantly more detailed than Negro League (or even older MLB) records, so we do have a fairly competent way to translate Sadahuru Oh and other players' stats. From what I've read, Oh would certainly be a Hall of Fame hitter, but nowhere near the greatest ever. Shigeo Nagashima is less famous but equally respected by Japanese players/fans/historians.

milo z (mlp), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 19:22 (thirteen years ago) link

Nagashima is more respected because he's Japanese!!! (unlike Oh, which is a sad, sad story).

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 19:36 (thirteen years ago) link

is the talent pool THAT suspect?

i mean sports are serious business now and conditioning is superior and just general societal lifestyle things make a difference, but wasn't baseball pretty much the only true major league sport in the days of the babe?

look at at all the competition baseball faces now from football, hoops, soccer and to some extent, hockey and lax (to the extent that there are thousands of kids who may never play baseball b/c lax season conflicts).

i'm not saying that the talent pool is weak now, but baseball had pretty free range over things for a while.

jonathan quayle higgins (j.q. higgins), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 19:52 (thirteen years ago) link

I think the talent level in all those sports has increased, in part because of desegregation, but also because of globalization, industrialization and the rise of television/superstar athlete (far more people grow up wanting to be a star baseball player now--even with the rise of those other sports--than did a hundred or even seventy-five years ago.) Anyway I am pretty sure if you look at the statistics the range between the best players and the weakest (and even the median) players between then and now is much greater.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 20:03 (thirteen years ago) link

re: Negro Leagues -- stats from all games, even exhibition games, were also included in career totals.

c(''c) (Leee), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 22:34 (thirteen years ago) link

Polyp and others,

I will enthrall and delight all of you with my fascinating observations in a week or so. I am leaving the keys to the ILB office with Barry and Felicity. Be easy on them!

Steve Shasta
East Coast Wakeboarding Representative

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 23:52 (thirteen years ago) link

Catch a wave and you're sittin' on top of the world!

NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 11 May 2006 00:18 (thirteen years ago) link

Why must I be called "polyp". How unfortunate.

polyphonic (polyphonic), Thursday, 11 May 2006 06:51 (thirteen years ago) link

Top Five NL First Basemen, by VORP

1. Albert Pujols STL .362 35.2
2. Nick Johnson WAS .326 17.7
3. Lance Berkman HOU .316 17.4
4. Nomar Garciaparra LAN .337 16.7
5. Carlos Delgado NYN .305 15.7

NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Monday, 22 May 2006 14:29 (thirteen years ago) link

The first number is EqA, the second is VORP.

NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Monday, 22 May 2006 14:30 (thirteen years ago) link

NOMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 22 May 2006 14:36 (thirteen years ago) link

I had the same reaction!

NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Monday, 22 May 2006 14:58 (thirteen years ago) link

Besides the "holy shit, Pujols is twice as good as all these other star first basemen" reaction, of course.

NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Monday, 22 May 2006 14:59 (thirteen years ago) link

That's only because Derrek Lee broke his wrist though (batting .318/.448/.614 at the time of his injury).

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Monday, 22 May 2006 15:58 (thirteen years ago) link

steve shasta = david wells, gimme my $5.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 22 May 2006 15:59 (thirteen years ago) link

There's a great chart in the new Sport Illustrated... actually, it's in my trashcan let me dig it out:

Okay, the title of the chart is "Projected All-time HR Leaders using Baseball Prospectus' PECOTA Forecasting Tool":

1. Barry Bonds - 765
2. Hank Aaron - 755
3. Babe Ruth - 714
4. Alex Rodriguez - 678
5. Willie Mays - 660
6. Adam Dunn - 638
7. Ken Griffey Jr. - 637
8. Albert Pujols - 620
9. Manny Ramirez - 589
10. Sammy Sosa - 588

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Monday, 22 May 2006 16:21 (thirteen years ago) link

#1 Evil, cheating steroid abuser: ON DA JUICE!!!111
#2 Godlike baseball immortal
#3 Godlike baseball immortal
#4 One of the Good guys: Pure talent, this guy has what it takes to win
#5 Godlike baseball immortal
#6 One of the Good guys: Pure talent, this guy has what it takes to win
#7 One of the Good guys: Pure talent, this guy has what it takes to win
#8 One of the Good guys: Pure talent, this guy has what it takes to win
#9 One of the Good guys: Pure talent, this guy has what it takes to win
#10 Evil, cheating steroid abuser: ON DA JUICE!!!111

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Monday, 22 May 2006 16:28 (thirteen years ago) link

Also in that edition:

Albert Pujols article: Albert is the new, clean face of baseball heroes. Albert upset about any steroid allegations, upset at his disputed age allegations. Meanwhile, he's on pace to shatter a record that only Evil, cheating steroid abusers (Bonds, McGwire, Sosa) have been able to accomplish!

Barry Bonds: Increasingly poor production (.971 OPS?), agonizing march to overtake Ruth (3 HRs in 4 weeks of April vs. 3 HRs in 3 weeks of May to date!?!?!?), more of Verducci's declining and agonizing analysis.

Justin Gaitlin: FASTEST MAN ON THE PLANET!!! Meet the brand new 100m world record holder!!! Never mind that he tested positive for PEDs 3 years ago and received and served a year suspension!!!! Nevermind that his trainer and coach is the man who first was caught with an HGH/BALCO affiliated designer steroid syringe, setting off a wave of baseball-centric federal drug investigation... Nevermind all that, boy is this guy fast!!!

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Monday, 22 May 2006 16:42 (thirteen years ago) link

Yawn.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 22 May 2006 17:26 (thirteen years ago) link

xp - I thought everyone still hated A-Rod for being pretty and not clutch.

milo z (mlp), Monday, 22 May 2006 17:26 (thirteen years ago) link

Alex are you going to any of the STL games?

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Monday, 22 May 2006 17:28 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah I've also heard them be down on Manny Ramirez and Adam Dunn too, but hey I don't live in Shasta-land.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 22 May 2006 17:28 (thirteen years ago) link

I'm not actually! I kind of wish I had ticks. I saw 'em last year.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 22 May 2006 17:29 (thirteen years ago) link

a-rod's pretty?

otto midnight (otto midnight), Monday, 22 May 2006 17:34 (thirteen years ago) link

pretty shitty amirite?

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 22 May 2006 17:39 (thirteen years ago) link

he's pretty... pretty clutch.

Also Adam Dunn has got to be one of the greatest power hitters of all time.

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Monday, 22 May 2006 17:39 (thirteen years ago) link

Will Adam Dunn end up being Boog Powell or Harmon Killebrew?

I'm wondering how Teixeira fares, if he signs long-term to play in the AL Coors.

milo z (mlp), Monday, 22 May 2006 17:44 (thirteen years ago) link

i hope adam dunn starts to hit for average, in between whiffing and homering.

gear (gear), Monday, 22 May 2006 18:45 (thirteen years ago) link

You forgot walking, gear. If he can just maintain a .250-.260 BA, his value will still be off the charts.

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 22 May 2006 18:48 (thirteen years ago) link

He's the Rob Deer 5000 -- new and improved model.

NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Monday, 22 May 2006 21:08 (thirteen years ago) link

Nah, Wily Mo is the Nu-Rob Deer.

Dunn is the true three outcomes master: K, BB, HR.

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Monday, 22 May 2006 21:18 (thirteen years ago) link

i wish he'd get up to .260!

gear (gear), Monday, 22 May 2006 21:50 (thirteen years ago) link

Wait PECOTA actually thinks Adam Dunn is going to hit 600 home runs? Isn't Adam Dunn the poster-child for old player skills? Doesn't that usually = pretty short career?

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 22 May 2006 22:06 (thirteen years ago) link

That said his baseball-reference comparables through 25 look pretty good although to be fair I'm not sure anyone other than Killebrew on this list is a particularly good comparison (and I doubt this is the list of comparables PECOTA came up with):

Darryl Strawberry (927)
Reggie Jackson (926) *
Jose Canseco (918)
Troy Glaus (909)
Tom Brunansky (902)
Juan Gonzalez (901)
Boog Powell (901)
Rocky Colavito (891)
Tony Conigliaro (890)
Harmon Killebrew (883) *

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 22 May 2006 22:22 (thirteen years ago) link

I'd compare him to Todd Helton: he plays in a crackerjack box 81 games a year.

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Monday, 22 May 2006 22:27 (thirteen years ago) link

His home road splits are pretty extreme for his career IIRC.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 22 May 2006 22:29 (thirteen years ago) link

Powell, Colavito, Conigliaro are all valid comparison - big, lumbering dudes with a ton of power but not necessarily staying potential.

IIRC, Boog is one of PECOTA's top comparables (as are Killer and Glaus)

milo z (mlp), Monday, 22 May 2006 22:38 (thirteen years ago) link

his three-year home/road splits aren't that bad: .836 away/.902 home

milo z (mlp), Monday, 22 May 2006 22:41 (thirteen years ago) link

what happened to helton? guy's turned into dave magadan.

gear (gear), Monday, 22 May 2006 22:46 (thirteen years ago) link

        /つ_∧
  /つ_,∧ 〈( ゜д゜)
  |( ゜д゜) ヽ ⊂ニ) poohole?!
  ヽ__と/ ̄ ̄ ̄/ |
   ̄\/___/ ̄ ̄

INSANE CLOWN FOSSE (Adrian Langston), Friday, 26 May 2006 17:52 (thirteen years ago) link

Babe Ruth hit his 25th homerun on June 30th in his definitive 1927 60-HR season (*154 games).

Pujols is a month and a day ahead of Babe Ruth's pace.

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Tuesday, 30 May 2006 16:23 (thirteen years ago) link

Ruth's pace is misleading -- didn't he hit 17 homers in September that year?

Comparing to Sosa/McGwire 1998 or Bonds 2001 is more revealing. I think he's ahead of everyone's pace though.

NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 30 May 2006 16:35 (thirteen years ago) link

Nah, he's behind McGwire and Bonds.

polyphonic (polyphonic), Tuesday, 30 May 2006 16:38 (thirteen years ago) link

Straight average:

25/51*162 = 79.41

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Tuesday, 30 May 2006 16:50 (thirteen years ago) link

That would be quite a lot of home runs, but I'm pretty sure the .41 wouldn't count.

polyphonic (polyphonic), Tuesday, 30 May 2006 16:59 (thirteen years ago) link

that would be a double

gear (gear), Tuesday, 30 May 2006 17:19 (thirteen years ago) link

tagged out stretching a single into a double.

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Tuesday, 30 May 2006 17:21 (thirteen years ago) link

albert got greedy

gear (gear), Tuesday, 30 May 2006 17:24 (thirteen years ago) link

BASTARD

Haikunym (Haikunym), Tuesday, 30 May 2006 17:31 (thirteen years ago) link

He did the Willy Mays Hayes spring training slide into 2nd.

polyphonic (polyphonic), Tuesday, 30 May 2006 19:01 (thirteen years ago) link


he straineth his oblique! Shasta don't hafta sell his "73" jewelry now.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 6 June 2006 18:16 (thirteen years ago) link

It's the sign that 36 year old body is breaking down!

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 6 June 2006 20:07 (thirteen years ago) link

yes, it's extremely normal for 25 year old athletes to strain their oblique muscles circling under routine pop-ups.

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 02:38 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah quirky injuries only happen to old guys.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 04:10 (thirteen years ago) link

I strain my back standing up, for fuck's sake! (But I do drink Playa's Coffee.)

David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 10:14 (thirteen years ago) link

I sneezed yesterday and my back hurt for an hour. I felt Sammy Sosa's pain.

milo z (mlp), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 16:29 (thirteen years ago) link

I love Alex In SF (as he knows) but I especially love how he thinks that injuries to middle fielders caused by players hard-sliding into second are freak/quirky injuries! :-D

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 17:09 (thirteen years ago) link

I love Steve Shasta (as he knows) but I especially love how he thinks that oblique strains are something that only happen to old people who are moving furniture and A's starting pitchers! ;D

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 17:24 (thirteen years ago) link

*slurp slurp slurp*

INSANE CLOWN FOSSE (Adrian Langston), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 18:10 (thirteen years ago) link

two months pass...
Jermaine Dye now has more HRs (39) than Albert (38)...

Stormy Davis (diamond), Wednesday, 30 August 2006 02:33 (twelve years ago) link

Sorry, who hits behind Albert Pujols again?

Jimmy Mod: THE HANDLESS ORGANIST (The Famous Jimmy Mod), Wednesday, 30 August 2006 03:18 (twelve years ago) link

you got me!

(btw, I only posted that because I find it "INTERESTING", not out of home team oneupsmanship)(but I've long been a fan of JD generally)

Stormy Davis (diamond), Wednesday, 30 August 2006 03:32 (twelve years ago) link

two weeks pass...
Pujols has equalled his season-high HR tally with 46.

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 02:04 (twelve years ago) link

He is on the juice, plus he's old!

Haikunym (Haikunym), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 02:12 (twelve years ago) link

Haha @ Justin Gaitlin foreshadowing upthread circa 5/22.

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 02:20 (twelve years ago) link

foreshadowing my ass, that story was old already

Haikunym (Haikunym), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 02:23 (twelve years ago) link

no, he broke the record. and then was caught a month or two later. hmmm sort of like that tour de france dude whose name i can't even remember anymore oh yes I can floyd landis.

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 02:25 (twelve years ago) link

Pujols HR:2B ratio:

pre-AS break: 29:10
post-AS break: 17:21

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 02:27 (twelve years ago) link

"In 2001, Gatlin was banned from international competition for two years after testing positive for amphetamines. Gatlin appealed on the grounds that the positive test had been due to medication that he had been taking for a number of years for attention deficit disorder, with which he was diagnosed as a child. The appeal resulted in an early reinstatement by the IAAF."

Haikunym (Haikunym), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 04:50 (twelve years ago) link

what's his ratio pre-oblique strain and post-oblique strain?

Haikunym (Haikunym), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 04:51 (twelve years ago) link

Pujols I mean, not Gatlin

Haikunym (Haikunym), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 04:51 (twelve years ago) link

Oh I see, Haikunym. You didn't know about this which happened last month:

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/sports/060822/s0822114.html

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 11:43 (twelve years ago) link

Oh Shastapaws

David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 11:51 (twelve years ago) link

Yes, Steve Shasta, I did know about that. That's why I said it was old news and then posted a piece from a news story from 2001 that backed up my position. Jesus Christ almighty man.

Haikunym (Haikunym), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 15:00 (twelve years ago) link

WTF? I think you're being thick here, Matt. Follow the timeline:

6.17.2001 = Justin Gatlin suspended 2 years for testing positive to banned substances.
7.30.2002 = IAAF reinstates Gatlin due to the nature of the offense ("unknowing effect of ADD medication")
4.22.2006 = Gatlin is tested after a relay race in Lawrence, KS.
5.12.2006 = Gatlin sets World Record in Qatar.
5.22.2006 = Steve Shasta scans Sports Illustrated
5.22.2006 = Steve Shasta posts doubtful post about Gatlin's legitimacy
7.29.2006 = USADA publishes results of Gatlin's 4.22.2006 test = positive for banned substances.
8.22.2006 = IAAF bans Gatlin for 8 years due to second positive test.
9.18.2006 = Haikunym denies any foreshadowing in Shasta's 5.22 post with regard to the events of 7.29-8.22 as they were "old news already".
9.19.2006 = Message board drama escalates to C-scale level post exchanges, feathers ruffled, will be forgotten in 24 hours.

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 15:22 (twelve years ago) link

9.18.2006 = Pujols has equalled his season-high HR tally with 46.

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 15:24 (twelve years ago) link

C-scale level post exchange: shasta vs haikunym, blount vs the board on the pete rose thread

B-scale: john vs the board on the old yanqui-bashing threads, the "White Sox: great or lucky" debates of 2005

A-scale: the steroid threads

?

NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 15:27 (twelve years ago) link

A-scale = the spammer of 2004, k3rry k3@n3, LEEE being served a restraining order to keep away from Billy Mueller.

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 15:34 (twelve years ago) link

I object on the basis that none of those were "post-exchanges" between ILB regulars.

xpost

NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 15:52 (twelve years ago) link

Steve Shasta I am extremely sorry to have cast any doubt on your amazing prognostical ability. You were the only one in the world who believed that Justin Gatlin's previous positive doping test might not have been entirely legitimate, and you are certainly the only one on this board who knows anything about track and field.

Now that my entirely sincere apology is out of the way, let's get back to the issue at hand: Albert Pujols, unlike Barry Bonds, is an aged steroid cheat who stains the game with his very presence!

Haikunym (Haikunym), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 16:07 (twelve years ago) link

It would be better if you said that Barry Bonds is the only player ever to have used an illegal substance in the history of sports, and then change your name to Tom Verducci and start championing anyone who hits homeruns in this era as THE NEW, CLEAN FACE OF BASEBALL, buttholehead.

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 16:09 (twelve years ago) link

Okay, I'm a buttholehead, I deserve that in a way. But calling me Tom Verducci is uncalled for. THIS, SIR, IS WAR.

Haikunym (Haikunym), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 16:13 (twelve years ago) link

(and I was never part of the Bonds = Satan mafia!)

Haikunym (Haikunym), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 16:14 (twelve years ago) link

Don't ask Steve Shasta to pay attention to little things like who said what and when. He's got a point (a ridiculous point, but a point none-the-less) and he's not going to let a little thing like logic derail him.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 16:18 (twelve years ago) link

But I want to believe in him, I still recall the halcyon days when he had that other name and was more reasonable.

Haikunym (Haikunym), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 16:20 (twelve years ago) link

I'm beginning to suspect that Steve may not be posting clean. His irrational rages. His oversized skull. His bizarre keyboard injuries. All these things look suspect to me.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 16:23 (twelve years ago) link

Shasta's panties have been twisted around the tip of his wakeboard ever since the Giants fell out of first place a few weeks ago*.

* baseless speculation, much like the non-Gatlin drug rumours on this thread

NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 16:23 (twelve years ago) link

Actually I used to be a lot nicer and smarter around here.

Haikunym (Haikunym), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 16:25 (twelve years ago) link

I blame the Brewers' total WTF collapse.

Haikunym (Haikunym), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 16:25 (twelve years ago) link

Let's keep this up so we can elevate this to a B-level exchange.

NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 16:29 (twelve years ago) link

THAT SHIP HAS SAILED. Plus I have better things to do than get into another pointless fight on the Internets, like stapling my dick to a fire engine or sending a job resume to Jeffrey Loria.

Haikunym (Haikunym), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 16:34 (twelve years ago) link

OR WRITING A BEST SELLING BASEBALL BOOK

David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 16:39 (twelve years ago) link

Thank you to Haikunym for not taking my OTT!!!! post seriously, as was intended.

But for the rest of you, I hope you take a sharp grounder to the gonads.

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 17:05 (twelve years ago) link

Been there, done squats, worn the icepack.

David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 17:06 (twelve years ago) link

nine months pass...

Pujols 30.4 VORP, .325 EqAvg

Fielder 29.6 VORP, .316 EqAvg

Dr Morbius, Thursday, 5 July 2007 14:37 (twelve years ago) link

Prince Semien Fielder, he unworthieth.

Andy K, Thursday, 5 July 2007 14:45 (twelve years ago) link

your vendetta against Prince is just precious, Morbs.
keep up the good hatin'!

The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall, Thursday, 5 July 2007 15:14 (twelve years ago) link

uh-oh, don't wake the shasta bias!

bnw, Thursday, 5 July 2007 18:22 (twelve years ago) link

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

The St. Louis Cardinals’ Albert Pujols has agreed to participate in tonight’s Home Run Derby in San Francisco, even though he is mired in a career-worst power slump. Pujols, who has 16 home runs, and Alex Rios of the Toronto Blue Jays were the final participants added.

Pujols’s homerless streak reached 22 games and a career-worst 74 at-bats in the Cardinals’ 7-0 victory over the Giants yesterday.

Rios, Minnesota’s Justin Morneau, Vladimir Guerrero of the Angels and Magglio Ordóñez of the Tigers are the American League’s representatives for the Derby. Pujols, Philadelphia’s Ryan Howard and Prince Fielder of the Brewers are the National League contestants.

Dr Morbius, Monday, 9 July 2007 17:53 (twelve years ago) link

Oh, for a career-worst power drought to mean 16 HRs at the All-Star Break.

David R., Monday, 9 July 2007 17:54 (twelve years ago) link

ha, he sonned Ryan THE CLEAN SLUGGER Howard!

Dr Morbius, Tuesday, 10 July 2007 13:57 (twelve years ago) link

ten months pass...

Albert Pujols
SEASON TEAM IsoP
2001 StL 0.281
2002 StL 0.247
2003 StL 0.308
2004 StL 0.326
2005 StL 0.279
2006 StL 0.340
2007 StL 0.241
2008 StL 0.238

Steve Shasta, Friday, 16 May 2008 16:25 (eleven years ago) link

2007 & 2008 are his lowest IsoPs of his career.

I thought power was supposed to increase through *ahem* age 26-28?

Steve Shasta, Friday, 16 May 2008 16:29 (eleven years ago) link

IsoP is negatively correlated with hair loss, if that's what you're implying.

mattbot, Friday, 16 May 2008 16:40 (eleven years ago) link

Guy has plantar fasciitis! It's amazing he can hit at all. That shit is painful.

Alex in SF, Friday, 16 May 2008 16:43 (eleven years ago) link

OBP is only important in regards to Barry Bonds...

bnw, Friday, 16 May 2008 17:18 (eleven years ago) link

hi dere:

Bonds IsoP:
2006 SF .275
2007 SF .288

Steve Shasta, Friday, 16 May 2008 17:20 (eleven years ago) link

Plantier fascistus?

Andy K, Friday, 16 May 2008 17:21 (eleven years ago) link

are those 'roid adjusted stats on Bonds?

Prince Albert:
Ranks 4th in NL in BA (.357)
Ranks 15th in NL in HR (8)
Ranks 1st in NL in BB (41)
Ranks 1st in NL in OBP (.503)
Ranks 8th in NL in SLG (.594)
Ranks 3rd in NL in OPS (1.097)

bnw, Friday, 16 May 2008 17:44 (eleven years ago) link

hi bnw, i'm talking about POWER. not walks, not batting average, not on-base percentiles.

i am talking about POWER.

And how Albert's POWER seems to be waning as he enters the eversofaint twilight of his mid-twenties.

Steve Shasta, Friday, 16 May 2008 17:48 (eleven years ago) link

how much of the waning is due to the elbow tear?

chicago kevin, Friday, 16 May 2008 17:51 (eleven years ago) link

hi steve! if his power was rising into his "thirties" would you be on here insinuating something else about him? I am guessing YES.

bnw, Friday, 16 May 2008 17:57 (eleven years ago) link

"how much of the waning is due to the elbow tear?"

NONE! IT'S ALL BECAUSE OF HIS FAKE AGE!

Alex in SF, Friday, 16 May 2008 17:59 (eleven years ago) link

The dude is playing through some pretty significant injuries and still hitting very well. I don't think it's very hard to understand how those injuries could reduce his power. I mean, the Cardinals were planning on having him miss the entirety of this season if they fell out of contention early. He's only still playing because they're in the mix for the division.

polyphonic, Friday, 16 May 2008 18:01 (eleven years ago) link

SHUT UP SHUT UP FAKE AGE SHUT UP!

Alex in SF, Friday, 16 May 2008 18:04 (eleven years ago) link

Alex, how many healthy seasons has Pujols had?

Steve Shasta, Friday, 16 May 2008 18:53 (eleven years ago) link

;-)

Steve Shasta, Friday, 16 May 2008 18:53 (eleven years ago) link

http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/8168/apriltemp2sr4.png

bnw, Friday, 16 May 2008 19:06 (eleven years ago) link

According to the Will Carroll, none.

Alex in SF, Friday, 16 May 2008 19:09 (eleven years ago) link

Is Shasta calling all the surge-in-NL-offense articles dumb, I wonder?

Dr Morbius, Friday, 16 May 2008 19:18 (eleven years ago) link

According to the Will Carroll, none.

Well obviously that's because he's been on the juice all along, right.

Leee, Friday, 16 May 2008 21:06 (eleven years ago) link

i really want him to reach base in all 162

J0rdan S., Friday, 16 May 2008 21:07 (eleven years ago) link


        /つ_∧
  /つ_,∧ 〈( ゜д゜)
  |( ゜д゜) ヽ ⊂ニ) poohole?!
  ヽ__と/ ̄ ̄ ̄/ |
   ̄\/___/ ̄ ̄

-- INSANE CLOWN FOSSE (Adrian Langston), Friday, May 26, 2006 5:52 PM (1 year ago) Bookmark Link

lol

my finest post of all time

cankles, Friday, 16 May 2008 22:16 (eleven years ago) link

"Pujols’ first homer was massive. He led off the fifth inning by hitting reliever Justin Germano’s second pitch into the balcony on the fourth floor of the Western Metal Supply Co. building in Petco Park’s left-field corner, 405 feet from home plate."

"He hit another towering shot leading off the eighth, this one into the seats in left-center on a full-count pitch from left-hander Sean Henn."

;-)

bnw, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 19:17 (eleven years ago) link

wow, first Albert lines one off Chris Young's face, then knocks Bard out of the game by sliding into his ankle? DESTROYER OF PADS!

Dr Morbius, Thursday, 22 May 2008 13:21 (eleven years ago) link

ALBERT POOLHALLS

jhøshea, Thursday, 22 May 2008 13:23 (eleven years ago) link

IsoP
career: .288
2008: .283

HANG EM UP YR DUNN

bnw, Sunday, 1 June 2008 15:43 (eleven years ago) link

wow, almost as good as Bonds in 2007.

Steve Shasta, Sunday, 1 June 2008 16:38 (eleven years ago) link

two months pass...

Joe Sheehan:

The way in which Albert Pujols is taken for granted has become something of a joke. He is one of the two best players in baseball—it's him or it's Alex Rodriguez—and has been basically since he walked into the league, and is well on his way to being one of the 20 best players ever. He does everything: hits for average and power, runs the bases well, plays superior defense at his position, first base. He's rarely been at the center of any controversies. He is the second-best player in franchise history behind a guy who has a case for being the best player in the history of the National League. He would have at least three MVP awards had Barry Bonds retired after 1999, and he'd have a top-five finish in every one of his seven completed seasons if last year's vote hadn't been such a disaster. (Pujols was the best or second-best player in the league, but finished ninth in the voting because the Cardinals' pitching wasn't good. That makes sense.) Pujols should be considered the NL MVP at this point; there is simply no argument against him.

Dr Morbius, Thursday, 21 August 2008 17:10 (eleven years ago) link

He's not even the best player on his team.

Steve Shasta, Thursday, 21 August 2008 18:33 (eleven years ago) link

hahaha

Dr Morbius, Thursday, 21 August 2008 18:54 (eleven years ago) link

He's not even the best player on his team.

Skip Schumacher, come on down!

David R., Thursday, 21 August 2008 19:10 (eleven years ago) link

I'm more of a Ryan Ludwick guy.

call all destroyer, Thursday, 21 August 2008 19:22 (eleven years ago) link

3 points from Larry Jones ;)

bnw, Saturday, 23 August 2008 21:31 (eleven years ago) link

I have to ask, Steve, then who is?

Alex in SF, Monday, 25 August 2008 21:38 (eleven years ago) link

i might care about this guy if he was the best player on his own team

deeznuts, Monday, 25 August 2008 21:40 (eleven years ago) link

lol wtf are you talking about deeznuts

J0rdan S., Monday, 25 August 2008 21:42 (eleven years ago) link

do you mean chris carpenter???

J0rdan S., Monday, 25 August 2008 21:42 (eleven years ago) link

I think there must be a joke here that I am missing.

Alex in SF, Monday, 25 August 2008 21:51 (eleven years ago) link

not a good week to pick this fight :/

Albert Pujols of the St. Louis Cardinals has been named Bank of America Presents the National League Player of the Week for August 18-24, 2008. Bank of America, the Official Bank of Major League Baseball, is the presenting sponsor of the National League and American League Player of the Week Awards, which reflect Bank of America's long-standing tradition of promoting and recognizing higher standards of accomplishment.

Pujols led the N.L. with a .579 (11-for-19) batting average, a 1.105 slugging percentage, a .652 on-base percentage and 10 RBI, and was tied for the league-lead with four doubles. In addition, the seven-time All-Star was second in the N.L. with 21 total bases and tied for third with 11 hits and two home runs.

The 28-year-old first baseman posted four straight multi-hit and multi-RBI performances from August 20-24, including consecutive three-hit and three-RBI games on August 22nd and 23rd vs. Atlanta. The 2005 N.L. MVP homered in back-to-back games on August 23rd and 24th vs. Atlanta. Pujols currently has an eight-game hitting streak and is batting .359 (151-for-421) on the season, tied with Atlanta's Chipper Jones for the N.L. lead, with 28 home runs and 87 RBI. This marks the seventh time that Albert has earned N.L weekly honors. He has been named N.L. Player of the Week in each season since 2001 except for 2004.

bnw, Monday, 25 August 2008 21:57 (eleven years ago) link

I just don't even get who else is in this argument. Is there another first ballot HoFer (who is still playing like a first ballot HoFer!) that I'm missing on the Cardinal's roster?

Alex in SF, Monday, 25 August 2008 22:03 (eleven years ago) link

ok i could hear an argument for brian barton

J0rdan S., Monday, 25 August 2008 22:04 (eleven years ago) link

bnw i believe that is what is called a small sample size especially in relation to ryan ludwick's season (note that ludwick has more homers and more rbi than pujols, and rbi is the best indicator of an MVP player as we all know)

omar little, Monday, 25 August 2008 22:06 (eleven years ago) link

you rite. another aberration: those two weeks when Albert was injured and Ludwick ~.180.

bnw, Tuesday, 26 August 2008 02:31 (eleven years ago) link

The 28-year-old first baseman

Stop right there.

Leee, Tuesday, 26 August 2008 03:18 (eleven years ago) link

Proof that Gary Cohen of the Mets crew, admittedly a very good play-by-play man, is overpraised: He too said last night that Ludwick is having a better year than Pujols.

The War Against Counting Stats will take another generation to win.

Dr Morbius, Tuesday, 26 August 2008 13:07 (eleven years ago) link

three weeks pass...

Justin (Chicago): So we really do believe that Pujols was actually born in 1980 still?

Rob Neyer: (12:51 PM ET ) Given that he's showed no real aging pattern at all, I'm beginning to wonder if he's not an immortal, like Thor or Hercules.

Dr Morbius, Tuesday, 16 September 2008 17:11 (ten years ago) link

so is he the best player on his team yet

ciderpress, Tuesday, 16 September 2008 17:25 (ten years ago) link

jeez, even SUTCLIFFE said last night Pujols shd be MVP. (and cited OBP & SLUG; millennium arrives)

Dr Morbius, Thursday, 18 September 2008 14:45 (ten years ago) link

Motherfuckers that give Howard 1st place votes should be banned from life.

THAT'S RIGHT I SAID MOTHERFUCKERS -- THIS TIME IT COUNTS

David R., Thursday, 18 September 2008 15:12 (ten years ago) link

they need to enact a sportswriter pogrom if pujols gets anything less than 100% of the 1st place votes

cankles, Thursday, 18 September 2008 16:15 (ten years ago) link

Walking across the clubhouse to his locker, Manny Ramirez literally went out of his way to say that he didn't deserve to be the NL most valuable player and that Albert Pujols of the St. Louis Cardinals did. "I voted for Pujols," Ramirez said.

ilx: a miracle i helped create (J0rdan S.), Thursday, 18 September 2008 21:25 (ten years ago) link

But not before threatening to eat the heads of all his teammates' children.

Andy K, Thursday, 18 September 2008 21:51 (ten years ago) link

seven months pass...

so the man gets a night off and his team - best record in baseball - proceeds to lose to the Nationals - with the worst record in baseball.

jusayin.

The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall, Sunday, 3 May 2009 00:59 (ten years ago) link

^I started Pinero in vorppedminds. One earned run.

bela fregosi (brownie), Sunday, 3 May 2009 01:34 (ten years ago) link

two weeks pass...

just blew out 'lectric lights a la Redford

Dr Morbius, Friday, 22 May 2009 00:39 (ten years ago) link

Knocking out the "I" in "Big Mac" wasn't quite as cinematic as the Natural, but still impressive!

^ Z S on the internet here (Z S), Friday, 22 May 2009 00:42 (ten years ago) link

MLB Network is not a movie

(The Natural isn't much of one, either)

Dr Morbius, Friday, 22 May 2009 00:45 (ten years ago) link

one month passes...

JESUS CHRIST

ya'll are the ones who don't know things (Z S), Saturday, 27 June 2009 17:56 (ten years ago) link

dont understand why they pitch to him

s1ocked up, they won't let me out (J0rdan S.), Saturday, 27 June 2009 18:25 (ten years ago) link

Me neither, but I'm glad they do.

ya'll are the ones who don't know things (Z S), Saturday, 27 June 2009 18:37 (ten years ago) link

After opening the third inning with a fly out, Pujols returned to the Cardinals clubhouse to review video. There he predicted to assistant hitting coach Mike Aldrete that his next at-bat would ricochet off the yet-to-open Royals Hall of Fame behind the visitors bullpen in left field. “He didn’t say he might hit the Hall of Fame. He said he would hit the Hall of Fame,” Aldrete recalled . . . When Meche finally threw the pitch, Pujols swatted it some 423 feet off a Hall of Fame window.

johnny crunch, Sunday, 28 June 2009 01:16 (ten years ago) link

http://twitter.com/JesseSanchezMLB/status/2367035793

CARDINALS ACQUIRE MARK DeROSA FROM INDIANS; REDBIRDS SEND CHRIS PEREZ & PLAYER-TO-BE-NAMED TO TRIBE...

Stacey Pollen (Andy K), Sunday, 28 June 2009 03:19 (ten years ago) link

cubs fans will love that! would rather have lost Mott over Perez :/

bnw, Sunday, 28 June 2009 03:25 (ten years ago) link

this fucking guy.

spiritual giant Cubby Culbertson (omar little), Thursday, 2 July 2009 03:18 (ten years ago) link

they can give him the mvp already

rembrandt what (J0rdan S.), Thursday, 2 July 2009 03:20 (ten years ago) link

you could rearrange the seasons of this guy's career in any order you'd want and they'd all look the same, this flat pattern of awesome.

spiritual giant Cubby Culbertson (omar little), Thursday, 2 July 2009 03:27 (ten years ago) link

Three singles--that's how close Pujols is to an N.L. Triple Crown this morning. I got really caught up in Delgado's bid in 2000, and in the end the only thing he led the league in was doubles. (He finished with a little more or a little less than 90% of the league-leading total in each of the TC categories.) I was six when McClain won 30--I know that won't happen again unless the game profoundly changes. Dimaggio's streak, all but impossible; .400, maybe. I've always believed there'll be another TC, though. How do people assess Pujols' chances?

clemenza, Thursday, 2 July 2009 12:59 (ten years ago) link

sorta buy in 2 the argument from earlier in the season that theres not enough around him 4 giant RBI #s (tho i guess now w/ derosa [who is hurt?] & a non-pitcher batting 9th maybe im wrong)...idk it'd be interesting to see the stats of his # of ABs w/ RISP vs. say Prince Fielder

~also his IBB #s may start to take off...noticed SF walked him in the 1st inning yesterday

johnny crunch, Thursday, 2 July 2009 14:16 (ten years ago) link

all depends on Wright. Wright is obv off the juice this year, his isoP is about 50% of his career average but he's still hitting for average.

worst troll yet.

btw guys, it's Suggest Ban Shasta Day.

Dr Morbius, Thursday, 2 July 2009 14:23 (ten years ago) link

D Wright, NYM 3B
Miscellaneous Batting
SEASON IsoP
2004 NYM .232
2005 NYM .217
2006 NYM .220
2007 NYM .222
2008 NYM .232
2009 NYM .153
Total -- .217

Albert Pujols
SEASON TEAM IsoP
2001 StL 0.281
2002 StL 0.247
2003 StL 0.308
2004 StL 0.326
2005 StL 0.279
2006 StL 0.340
2007 StL 0.241
2008 StL 0.238

― Steve Shasta, Friday, May 16, 2008 11:25 AM (1 year ago) Bookmark

bnw, Thursday, 2 July 2009 14:46 (ten years ago) link

JUST LOOK AT HIS IhoP, PEOPLE! LOOK AT IT!

The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall, Thursday, 2 July 2009 14:46 (ten years ago) link

bnw there was another post you must have missed that had pujols best isoP season <<< than bonds final season.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2e54c40.gif

bnw, Thursday, 2 July 2009 14:57 (ten years ago) link

get back to me in September, Trollbot. With DW's ROAD numbers.

Dr Morbius, Thursday, 2 July 2009 15:16 (ten years ago) link

WALK HIM

a poppy seed NAGL (J0rdan S.), Saturday, 4 July 2009 01:27 (ten years ago) link

worst troll yet.

btw guys, it's Suggest Ban Shasta Day.

― Dr Morbius, Thursday, July 2, 2009 10:23 AM (Yesterday)

oh the irony ;_;

Nabisco™ (k3vin k.), Saturday, 4 July 2009 02:05 (ten years ago) link

bases loaded, 3 run lead and you pitch to Albert = GO CRY WITH MARK PRIOR DUSTY LOL

bnw, Saturday, 4 July 2009 15:12 (ten years ago) link

one month passes...

O_O

heave imho (J0rdan S.), Wednesday, 5 August 2009 02:30 (ten years ago) link

This just made my night! Is he back in the league lead for RBI's now? *checks*

ARAGORN SON OF ARATHORN (Z S), Wednesday, 5 August 2009 02:31 (ten years ago) link

WELL?

The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall, Wednesday, 5 August 2009 02:52 (ten years ago) link

lol rbis

8080's and internet break (k3vin k.), Wednesday, 5 August 2009 02:54 (ten years ago) link

I got sidetracked by pizza time. It appears that Prince Albert Pujols er reigneth

ARAGORN SON OF ARATHORN (Z S), Wednesday, 5 August 2009 02:55 (ten years ago) link

wau espn just ran a stat...alb w/ bases loaded is 7-9, 5 HR, 2.444 slg this year

8080's and internet break (k3vin k.), Wednesday, 5 August 2009 03:04 (ten years ago) link

still hasn't been walked with the bases loaded...

bnw, Wednesday, 5 August 2009 03:09 (ten years ago) link

rockin' his tongue sneer tonight too :P

bnw, Wednesday, 5 August 2009 03:11 (ten years ago) link

one month passes...

Good lord, even off the bench he's unstoppable.

OLIGARHY (Z S), Sunday, 6 September 2009 01:46 (nine years ago) link

four weeks pass...

He wasn't far off. A few years ago, I tried to come up with a quick and easy method of ranking post-Yastrzemski Triple Crown bids. I'll just link to the piece rather than try to describe it here. By my estimation, Pujols edged ahead of Larry Walker's 1997 season for the seventh-closest run at a Triple Crown since Yaz. The top seven: 1. Dick Allen ('72), 2. George Foster ('77), 3. Jim Rice ('78), 4. Mike Schmidt ('81), 5. Dante Bichette ('95), 6. Willie McCovey ('69), 7. Pujols ('09). He came up 9 hits and 6 RBIs short.

clemenza, Monday, 5 October 2009 02:59 (nine years ago) link

185 assists, a record.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4531189

A Patch on Blazing Saddles (Dr Morbius), Monday, 5 October 2009 03:00 (nine years ago) link

Oops--the link didn't work.

clemenza, Monday, 5 October 2009 03:01 (nine years ago) link

Okay, once more with feeling: http://phildellio.tripod.com/carlos.html. If that doesn't take, I give up.

clemenza, Monday, 5 October 2009 03:03 (nine years ago) link

By my estimation, Pujols edged ahead of Larry Walker's 1997 season for the seventh-closest run at a Triple Crown since Yaz.

― clemenza, Sunday, October 4, 2009 7:59 PM (1 hour ago)

clemenza, let me aid with your research:

Bonds 2002: .370 (1st) / 46 HR (2nd) / 110 RBI (5th) but also SIXTY EIGHT (ie, 68) INTENTIONAL walks, shattering his previous record of 52. Had Bonds been pitched to, he would easily have won the triple crown this year, as well as a few other years.

♪♫(●̲̲̅̅̅̅=̲̲̅̅̅̅●̲̅̅)♪♫ (Steve Shasta), Monday, 5 October 2009 04:48 (nine years ago) link

pujols 185 assists for a first baseman broke a record held by bill buckner

omar little, Monday, 5 October 2009 05:01 (nine years ago) link

Pujols fell short of the 2009 quadruple crown:

#2 in errors by a 1B
13 errors to Ryan Howard's 14.

♪♫(●̲̲̅̅̅̅=̲̲̅̅̅̅●̲̅̅)♪♫ (Steve Shasta), Monday, 5 October 2009 05:56 (nine years ago) link

Ranked dead last in Zone Rating of all qualified MLB 1B.

♪♫(●̲̲̅̅̅̅=̲̲̅̅̅̅●̲̅̅)♪♫ (Steve Shasta), Monday, 5 October 2009 05:57 (nine years ago) link

True enough, except that precisely because Bonds wasn't pitched to, he never had a realistic shot at the Triple Crown. In 2001, he finished 23 RBIs behinds Sosa; 18 behind Berkman in 2002 (probably his closest bid; he won the batting title and was only 3 home runs behind Sosa); and 30 behind Castilla in 2004. In my original piece, I established a cut-off that said you had to have a minimum of 90% of the league-leading total in any one category, and Bonds didn't reach the 90% bar for RBIs in any one of those years. I wasn't trying to figure out who might have won a Triple Crown under ideal conditions, it was just a cold calculation of who actually did come the closest.

clemenza, Monday, 5 October 2009 06:39 (nine years ago) link

And if you start throwing what-ifs into the mix, I'd say that absent the 68 intentional walks (and the other who-knows-how-many intentionally unintentional walks...), there's no way Bonds hits .370 that year.

clemenza, Monday, 5 October 2009 06:44 (nine years ago) link

Also, he's a drug cheat.

Mark C, Monday, 5 October 2009 11:39 (nine years ago) link

"Ranked dead last in Zone Rating of all qualified MLB 1B."

Where are you seeing that? Fangraphs has him at middle of the pack for UZR as does Hardball Times for RZR.

Alex in SF, Monday, 5 October 2009 12:21 (nine years ago) link

lol, Trollie loves batting average and errors.

A Patch on Blazing Saddles (Dr Morbius), Monday, 5 October 2009 13:05 (nine years ago) link

two weeks pass...

bye bye bone spurs
cynical theory - cardinals hold off on new deal until surgery to fix what is causing spurs i.e. tommy john

bnw, Wednesday, 21 October 2009 00:22 (nine years ago) link

Eric (Denver): I know he's not a free agent this offseason, but what do you see happening with Albert Pujols? Can the Cards sign him to an A-Rod-type deal and still have the money to field a perennial contender that can not only capture the NL Central title, but go deep into the playoffs?

Joe Sheehan: The Cardinals' problem isn't going to be money, but talent. They haven't done a real good job of integrating young players into their roster, and they've been drafting so low in the first round that they haven't had the shot at high-impact talent at the top of the draft. They can afford to pay Pujols $25-30MM/year, and still have $80-90 million for everyone else; the question is can they distribute that $80-90 million optimally, with a number of low-paid producers supporting a few other high-dollar players.

Your Favorite Saturday Night Thing (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 21 October 2009 00:51 (nine years ago) link

one month passes...

his reigneth, continueith!

The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall, Tuesday, 24 November 2009 19:39 (nine years ago) link

unanimoso!

lol at pts for Tejada

Feingold/Kaptur 2012 (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 25 November 2009 00:30 (nine years ago) link

i love derrek lee but it's strange that someone gave him a second place vote

jØrdån (omar little), Wednesday, 25 November 2009 00:41 (nine years ago) link

one 3rd place vote for todd helton, one 4th place for holliday, one 5th place apiece for carpenter, wainwright (vote split ;_;), werth, and yunel escobar.

jØrdån (omar little), Wednesday, 25 November 2009 00:43 (nine years ago) link

has he ever played healthy?

♪♫(●̲̲̅̅̅̅=̲̲̅̅̅̅●̲̅̅)♪♫ (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 25 November 2009 00:49 (nine years ago) link

according to the mang, the only day he is 100% healthy is day 1 of spring training.

bnw, Wednesday, 25 November 2009 00:56 (nine years ago) link

seriously, seems like he spends every off season in the hospital. i think alex in SF said (maybe on this thread?): "imagine if he played healthy"

♪♫(●̲̲̅̅̅̅=̲̲̅̅̅̅●̲̅̅)♪♫ (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 25 November 2009 01:01 (nine years ago) link

just remember tony lolrussa didn't want to play him until 300 yr old bobby bonilla got hurt

bnw, Wednesday, 25 November 2009 01:02 (nine years ago) link

one month passes...

He won the league Triple Crown for the decade -- first to do it since Ted Williams in the '40s.

Rage, Resentment, Spleen (Dr Morbius), Monday, 4 January 2010 16:19 (nine years ago) link

three months pass...

I think he won the Triple Crown for today, too. Pujols and Halladay begin their MVP showdown on even footing.

clemenza, Monday, 5 April 2010 21:40 (nine years ago) link

I have this guy on my fantasy team

feel like a total geek saying that but it's true & I'm stoked

Twink Will Ferrell (J0hn D.), Monday, 5 April 2010 21:45 (nine years ago) link

Tell the rest of your lineup to go have a fantasy vacation--Albert will take care of all.

clemenza, Monday, 5 April 2010 21:48 (nine years ago) link

shield your eyes

Astronaut Mike Dexter (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Monday, 12 April 2010 03:05 (nine years ago) link

hoffman's got nuffin

call all destroyer, Monday, 12 April 2010 03:06 (nine years ago) link

nice poke

kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Monday, 12 April 2010 03:06 (nine years ago) link

that was really predictable

call all destroyer, Monday, 12 April 2010 03:07 (nine years ago) link

from Hell's Bells to Tinkerbelle

kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Monday, 12 April 2010 03:08 (nine years ago) link

lol

call all destroyer, Monday, 12 April 2010 03:08 (nine years ago) link

so much reigneth

deejus, get off the whiney weingarten penis (J0rdan S.), Monday, 12 April 2010 03:08 (nine years ago) link

<3 albert

k3vin k., Monday, 12 April 2010 03:15 (nine years ago) link

~fin~

call all destroyer, Monday, 12 April 2010 03:18 (nine years ago) link

casey mcgehee, he reigneth

deejus, get off the whiney weingarten penis (J0rdan S.), Monday, 12 April 2010 03:19 (nine years ago) link

one month passes...

3 hr game for prince albert today

k3vin k., Sunday, 30 May 2010 21:02 (nine years ago) link

single handedly pwning my fantasy team

ok dennis hopper (J0rdan S.), Sunday, 30 May 2010 21:03 (nine years ago) link

two months pass...

I got way ahead of myself last year, but geez:

HR -- 32 (first, leading by one)
RBI -- 88 (first, leading by seven)
BA -- .316 (second, trailing by four points)

The four points translates to two hits; he's two singles shy of a Triple Crown right now.

I know I should be rooting for Votto (not just from Toronto, but the exact part of Toronto--Etobicoke--where I am), but I've been waiting forever for someone to win the Triple Crown, and Albert seems like an infinitely better bet. I especially like that he's got a cushion in RBIs, the one category that you can't really control. If my own team didn't have the third baseman having the fluky year, Cabrera would have a real shot too.

clemenza, Saturday, 21 August 2010 15:05 (nine years ago) link

Sorry--expect updates after a good night (i.e., a good night for Albert):

Pujols -- 33/92/.319
Votto -- 29/86/.323
Some other guy -- 31 HR

I know it's August 24, but I find this is getting almost no attention at all. Is that because 1) it is way too early, 2) a Triple Crown involves three categories at once, and people don't process three things at once, 3) people take Pujols for granted (especially in a year where, compared only to his own established levels, his numbers are down), 4) Joey Votto's still not well known enough, or 5) coming out of the PED era, people simply don't get excited anymore about anything involving a hitter (or, here, two hitters) chasing some benchmark?

clemenza, Tuesday, 24 August 2010 13:41 (nine years ago) link

in my case, it's cuz BA and RBI aren't too important

kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 24 August 2010 14:14 (nine years ago) link

also, you know, there's PRESEASON FOOTBALL, the Ground Zero Mosque of sports.

kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 24 August 2010 14:15 (nine years ago) link

BA and RBI aren't too important

I come from a universe were they were, and I haven't abandoned them yet. They still have their uses. But you'll be glad to know that Albert's up there in the VORP/WAR/OPS+ race too.

clemenza, Tuesday, 24 August 2010 15:51 (nine years ago) link

ha ha. i'm sure the rise of sabermetrics might have something to do with disinterest in the triple crown.

oreo speed wiggum (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 24 August 2010 15:55 (nine years ago) link

Probably--certainly among writers. And I didn't mean to sound snarky. My head knows that BA is overrated, and that RBI are far too context-driven, but the Triple Crown still holds a lot of irrational aura for me. I started watching three years after Yaz's, so it's something I've been waiting forever to see.

clemenza, Tuesday, 24 August 2010 16:05 (nine years ago) link

the MSM is still obsessed w/ trad stats.

it would be funny if Pujols won the TC for his 6th- or 7th-best season (guessing)

kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 24 August 2010 16:09 (nine years ago) link

And also, if Pujols does it--as opposed to, say, a Dante Bichette cosmic illusion, or even a Carlos Delgado having a career year--it will actually feel like something significant. Which is the main reason I'm pulling for him over Votto.

clemenza, Tuesday, 24 August 2010 16:10 (nine years ago) link

It's his 6th- or 7th-best for raw numbers, but is it in the context of the rest of the league? I don't know. This is the year of the pitcher (I made that up myself, just now), so intuition tells me that the mere fact he's so close to a Triple Crown must mean that he's dominating as much as ever in the context of league-wide stats.

clemenza, Tuesday, 24 August 2010 16:14 (nine years ago) link

is offense really down all that much?

kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 24 August 2010 16:15 (nine years ago) link

Like I say, I don't know. But when you've got a guy leading the league with a .323 average, and a few starting pitchers with E.R.A.s in the low 2.00s, I have to believe so, at least in the N.L. Would .323 have even put you in the Top 10 seven or eight years ago?

clemenza, Tuesday, 24 August 2010 16:18 (nine years ago) link

probably - but i think avg leaders are usually roughly 25 points higher.

oreo speed wiggum (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 24 August 2010 16:27 (nine years ago) link

I'm amazed, but you may well be right. Here's a quick comparison of the NL this year to 2002, the year Bonds hit .370, and to '98:

1998: .262/.332/.410, 4.23
2002: .259/.331/.410, 4.11
2010: .257/.325/.401, 4.06

There's been some decline in offense, but not nearly as much as I would have guessed.

clemenza, Tuesday, 24 August 2010 16:29 (nine years ago) link

I seem to recall there are a lot more pitcher friendly parks in the league these days (SF, SD, ?), not that those slowed Bonds down much.

_▂▅▇█▓▒░◕‿‿◕░▒▓█▇▅▂_ (Steve Shasta), Tuesday, 24 August 2010 18:02 (nine years ago) link

SF is a hitter's park according to bbref park factors... not sure where it got its reputation as a pitcher's park, i think it's just because the giants' offense has been so horrible since bonds left.

ciderpress, Tuesday, 24 August 2010 18:39 (nine years ago) link

By the way, I'm pretty partial to "Clemenza," but if I do ever change my handle, I'm claiming ownership of "The Ground Zero Mosque of Sports" right now--thank you, Morbius.

clemenza, Tuesday, 24 August 2010 18:53 (nine years ago) link

Nothing stopping you from being "The Ground Zero Mosque of Sports (clemenza)"

no gut busting joke can change history (polyphonic), Tuesday, 24 August 2010 19:35 (nine years ago) link

EXCEPT THIS!

well that did not work out at all.

ok, it's yours.

got electrolytes (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 24 August 2010 20:26 (nine years ago) link

after tonight's game, pujols is at .322 and joey votto is at .323

('_') (omar little), Wednesday, 25 August 2010 06:11 (nine years ago) link

anyone see anything about what was the latest in a season that anyone's been leading for the triple crown since the last one?

J0rdan S., Wednesday, 25 August 2010 06:20 (nine years ago) link

There's a link somewhere upthread to a piece I wrote about Triple Crowns a few years ago, the year Delgado made a run at one, where I tried to weigh who's come the closest since '67. But I would think it'd be hard to find out who's led all three at the latest date since then, because my guess is that it wouldn't be very late at all; I wouldn't be surprised if no one's led all three after June or July. As opposed to chasing .400, where I know there have been at least a couple who where there in August and beyond (didn't Brett nudge over .400 in early September?).

Anyway, Votto had a big night last night, and Albert was 0-4. Canadians--I hate them.

clemenza, Thursday, 26 August 2010 12:35 (nine years ago) link

Bonds would have won a couple times if he wasn't intentionally walked a zillion times. I think that's when people stopped caring about the triple crown.

_▂▅▇█▓▒░◕‿‿◕░▒▓█▇▅▂_ (Steve Shasta), Thursday, 26 August 2010 13:04 (nine years ago) link

Really? Bonds was so manifestly unpopular, I find it hard to believe he would have affected anybody one way or the other. If you didn't care about the Triple Crown to begin with, you still don't; if you did (like me), you still do. We went through the intentional walks upthread; without them, I don't think he ever would have won that batting title.

clemenza, Thursday, 26 August 2010 13:10 (nine years ago) link

Batting titles, plural. He had 403 AB for the first one, 373 for the next one.

clemenza, Thursday, 26 August 2010 13:13 (nine years ago) link

That's cool dude. Must be refreshing in a rip van winkle stylee to live in a world where AB > PA, BA > OBP, RBI > VORP. Keep on keepin on.

_▂▅▇█▓▒░◕‿‿◕░▒▓█▇▅▂_ (Steve Shasta), Thursday, 26 August 2010 13:22 (nine years ago) link

if you're hitting so well that people are walking you that often, then how do you not deserve a batting title if you manage to qualify for it regardless

ciderpress, Thursday, 26 August 2010 13:27 (nine years ago) link

SS: You're absolutely right--other than the intentional walks, Bonds had every indication that he was primed for a couple of 225-hit seasons in his late '30s. Thanks for setting me straight. (I sometimes get the feeling that Bill James must feel like Dr. Frankenstein when he takes a look around at what he unleashed unto the world.)

(I'm not saying that Bonds didn't deserve the batting titles that he clearly won. What I am saying is that he wouldn't have won them without the IBB--that there was no way he was going to maintain those averages in the normal course of events.)

clemenza, Thursday, 26 August 2010 13:30 (nine years ago) link

Well thanks for your opinion...

I guess you'll always have Carlos Delgado...?

_▂▅▇█▓▒░◕‿‿◕░▒▓█▇▅▂_ (Steve Shasta), Thursday, 26 August 2010 13:35 (nine years ago) link

ironically, if he wasn't going to maintain those averages then the IBBs were probably mostly incorrect moves

ciderpress, Thursday, 26 August 2010 13:37 (nine years ago) link

I don't know the ins and outs of analyzing IBB. Bonds was hitting HR at such a phenomenal rate that, even if his average had dropped, probably there was a net gain for the teams that were walking him. I did feel at the time that a complete panic had overtaken the league with regards to pitching to Bonds that was a little out of proportion.

clemenza, Thursday, 26 August 2010 13:43 (nine years ago) link

i just did some quick math, and if NO ONE had IBBed bonds in 2004 when he got IBBed 120 times, he would have had to hit .308 in those extra 120 PAs to maintain his batting title lead over Helton. and that's making the stupidly conservative assumption he draws 0 unintentional walks in that span, otherwise the number dips down below .300.

ciderpress, Thursday, 26 August 2010 13:48 (nine years ago) link

Now, if we could only determine each instance of an intentional "unintentional" walk...

Andy K, Thursday, 26 August 2010 14:00 (nine years ago) link

in 2002 he was IBBed 68 times, and he would have needed 11 hits in those 68 PAs (.162)

i think it's safe to say he would have won the 2002 one, 2004 is less clear-cut but who cares

ciderpress, Thursday, 26 August 2010 14:02 (nine years ago) link

Good point--maybe he would have won the batting title after all. Here's a slight variation for 2004. Since a whole bunch of his non-intentional walks were, realistically, intentional walks too, I looked at his season in terms of 100 walks period, adding back 132 AB. That would have given him 505 for the season, in which case he would have needed 176 hits to beat Helton; he would have needed to go 41/132, or .310. Yeah, I think you can safely say he would have done that. That would still leave the RBI leg of the Triple Crown, where he finished 30 behind Castilla. So he would have needed 31 RBI in 132 AB--a pretty good clip, but manageable. Home runs, he would have cleaned up. So: in a more normal 100-walk season, he might indeed have won the Triple Crown.

Curiously enough, I'm still excited about Pujols' run.

clemenza, Thursday, 26 August 2010 14:05 (nine years ago) link

I made a silly mistake in my 225-hit comment upthread--that'd be true only if nobody walked him all season. Duh.

clemenza, Thursday, 26 August 2010 14:08 (nine years ago) link

"Bonds would have won a couple times if he wasn't intentionally walked a zillion times. I think that's when people stopped caring about the triple crown."

I thought that BA was based on plate appearances not at bats?

Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Thursday, 26 August 2010 15:11 (nine years ago) link

BA titles that is.

Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Thursday, 26 August 2010 15:11 (nine years ago) link

Eligibility is based on PA--3.1 per game, I think. I seem to recall there's a provision that if you fall short of that, but would have won anyway with the minimum PA, you still get the title. That happened once...Ted Williams?

clemenza, Thursday, 26 August 2010 15:17 (nine years ago) link

"I think that's when people stopped caring about the triple crown."

I think the general rise of sabermetrics had more to do with this than Bonds actually.

Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Thursday, 26 August 2010 15:21 (nine years ago) link

If the Reds win the division, the TC is Albert's best/only hope for being MVP again, assuming Votto stays on track

kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 26 August 2010 15:27 (nine years ago) link

If Pujols and Votto are still really close in three weeks, we'll find out whether people care or not. I say they will. Because so few players ever get close, it's just not on the radar. And because it involves three things instead of just one, it's not as accessible as some guy making a run at .400, or going on a 30-game hitting streak. If people turn out not to care, I seriously doubt whether sabermetrics will have anything to do with it. For some writers, probably; for the average fan, who still does not care or even know anything about VORP, no way. A much simpler explanation would be record fatigue, and the general distrust of offensive numbers that I think still (rightly or wrongly) exists.

clemenza, Thursday, 26 August 2010 15:30 (nine years ago) link

i think it's weird how much people associate steroids with offense, when pitchers were taking them too! throwing a ball really hard to me seems intuitively more closely linked to pure strength than squaring up a baseball. i guess it's because it was hitting records that were broken during the era rather than pitching records.

i mean, people are starting to raise eyebrows at jose bautista, but no one would have suggested that ubaldo was using after his absurd first half, nor was greinke accused at any point last year.

ciderpress, Thursday, 26 August 2010 15:42 (nine years ago) link

Possible explanation: the power of first impressions. Steroids first became a story with McGwire, and from there it just kind of stuck that it was an offensive issue. (Not saying that you're wrong.)

clemenza, Thursday, 26 August 2010 15:46 (nine years ago) link

guess it's because it was hitting records that were broken during the era rather than pitching records.

Pedro broke records and was arguably the greatest pitcher ever during his peak, and Randy Johnson took his game to a new level and was pitching out of his mind in his late 30's. Nobody cared because they didn't look like muscled freaks (just ordinary freaks) and OF COURSE every sportswriter and casual fan can spot a steroid user from a mile away.

NoTimeBeforeTime, Thursday, 26 August 2010 20:43 (nine years ago) link

RJ sort of looks like a freak.

got electrolytes (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Thursday, 26 August 2010 20:44 (nine years ago) link

Yeah I'd def say dude looked like an extraordinary freak.

Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Thursday, 26 August 2010 20:46 (nine years ago) link

Johnson didn't come into the league at 5-10, though; he didn't grow a foot.

clemenza, Thursday, 26 August 2010 20:49 (nine years ago) link

they didn't look like muscled freaks (just ordinary freaks)

NoTimeBeforeTime, Thursday, 26 August 2010 20:56 (nine years ago) link

there was nothing ordinary about RJ. i was thinking more like carnival freak.

got electrolytes (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Thursday, 26 August 2010 21:15 (nine years ago) link

Pedro didn't break any of the Sacred Pitching Records (which are all unbreakable due to changes in pitcher use and the deadball era and nolan ryan's freakish rubber arm)

ciderpress, Thursday, 26 August 2010 21:36 (nine years ago) link

What sacred pitching records? I guess the closest thing would be the single season strikeout records, but no pitching record comes close to being as sacred as 56 or 755 762.

Pedro owns the single season and career records in Adjusted ERA+, which levels the playing field between him and the dead ball guys. Bob Gibson's 1.12 ranks "only" seventh all-time (and behind Greg Maddux's two best seasons).

NoTimeBeforeTime, Thursday, 26 August 2010 22:04 (nine years ago) link

i was thinking single-season and career for the pitching "triple crown" stats of strikeouts, wins, ERA

ciderpress, Thursday, 26 August 2010 22:08 (nine years ago) link

Where did this Joey Votto dude come from.

jaymc, Thursday, 26 August 2010 22:11 (nine years ago) link

he's been around for a couple years

he hit about this well last year but missed a couple months so he didn't have the counting stats to get him noticed

ciderpress, Thursday, 26 August 2010 22:13 (nine years ago) link

Etobicoke.

got electrolytes (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Thursday, 26 August 2010 23:16 (nine years ago) link

Pedro owns the single season and career records in Adjusted ERA+

Well...he was phenomenal during that time frame, but that's what I meant earlier about Sabermetrics not being on the radar of the average fan (not today, and even less so then). If you think interest in Pujols and Votto is minimal, I can guarantee that someone chasing the Adjusted ERA record this year would be greeted by the sound of less than one hand clapping.

clemenza, Thursday, 26 August 2010 23:17 (nine years ago) link

just hit #400.

('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 00:01 (eight years ago) link

Joey Votto has been pretty good hitter since he got his Sept call up in 2007. He was kind of streaky for his power hitting his first couple of years, seeming to hit his homers in bunches. The guy has been a freaking witch going to the opposite field and he hits lefties pretty well. That homer he hit off Kershaw and both yesterday against the Giants were to left field. While I am sure over his career, Great American will help his power numbers, so far his HR splits are actually better on the road (helped by this west coast swing). I'm sure not having Encarnacion playing third has helped, but Votto has really noticably improved at first base this year. One of the questions for next season is whether Votto would perhaps consider being moved to left field, as the Reds top prospect Yonder Alonso might be ready for the bigs, but they say the guy doesn't have the speed or arm to play in the outfield.

Pujols is in another category, the guy has been so good for so long. I'd love it if Votto could end up with a decade like that.

earlnash, Friday, 27 August 2010 02:00 (eight years ago) link

he's the only ball player i can think of from my hometown. if he had a decade like that i would likely become locked in perpetual orgasm.

got electrolytes (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Friday, 27 August 2010 02:29 (eight years ago) link

yonder can't play any position at first, where he is actually pretty decent

the kid can really, really hit, but he's pretty much going to be a worse version of all star -- potential to be a perennial all star but votto is a potential perennial MVP -- i wouldn't jeopardize that by trying to move votto to another position

what they need to do is evaluate a position of weakness (maybe an OF prospect as insurance against stubbs/bruce flaming out) and trade yonder for a player at that position

J0rdan S., Friday, 27 August 2010 02:33 (eight years ago) link

lol at that whole post

can't play any position BUT first

he's pretty much going to be a worse version of VOTTO

J0rdan S., Friday, 27 August 2010 02:33 (eight years ago) link

they are gonna be a potential powerhouse tho -- yasmani grandal is fucking sick

J0rdan S., Friday, 27 August 2010 02:34 (eight years ago) link

I STILL BELIEVE in jay bruce

he's gonna hit 35HR next year (i've said this the past 2 years too but This Time It Counts)

ciderpress, Friday, 27 August 2010 02:35 (eight years ago) link

yeah i mean he's not having a horrible season or anything

stubbs i think is teetering on the brink of major bust

J0rdan S., Friday, 27 August 2010 02:37 (eight years ago) link

or maybe he's just sophomore slumping, idk

J0rdan S., Friday, 27 August 2010 02:37 (eight years ago) link

stubbs is a good defensive CF though, he doesn't have to hit that well to be an average player.

ciderpress, Friday, 27 August 2010 02:43 (eight years ago) link

also true

J0rdan S., Friday, 27 August 2010 02:46 (eight years ago) link

is this actually happening

J0rdan S., Friday, 27 August 2010 02:47 (eight years ago) link

just this whole game

J0rdan S., Friday, 27 August 2010 02:47 (eight years ago) link

this game is a literal nightmare

J0rdan S., Friday, 27 August 2010 02:48 (eight years ago) link

whoops, too many cards threads at once

J0rdan S., Friday, 27 August 2010 02:48 (eight years ago) link

I think Joey Votto could do OK in left, the guy can run quite well and seems to have enough arm to hit a cutoff guy. I think if the Reds prime the pump and come up with a big enough contract, I think JV might consider the move as he seems like a dude that really wants to WIN. I love Gomes as a personality, but left is kind of a black hole for the club. Alot of Reds fans are wanting to give Alonso away on tons of dumbass trade ideas, I just know they let him go they will regret it unless it is tied to bringing back Hanley Ramirez.

Stubbs could do better just by even putting the ball in play, his speed would get him another hit a week. The guy is a K machine, then again so is Chris Heisey and Jay Bruce for that matter.

earlnash, Friday, 27 August 2010 04:13 (eight years ago) link

i would likely become locked in perpetual orgasm

TMI

kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Friday, 27 August 2010 08:58 (eight years ago) link

i was thinking single-season and career for the pitching "triple crown" stats of strikeouts, wins, ERA

I figured that ... I guess it's a bit strange that the people always make a big deal about guys chasing the hitting triple crown, but nobody says anything about the pitcher's triple crown. I think Clemens, Pedro, and Santana have all done it in the past 15 years, and maybe Johnson did too? It should be a big deal even to people who only care about conventional stats. It should be an even bigger deal when somebody does it during a hitter's era.

Adjusted ERA+ is fairly basic stuff, it seems like it wouldn't be too hard to get more people to start using it (even OBP and SLG are standard these days). Unless people really do think that Bob Gibson in 1968 was twice as good as any pitcher in the game today.

NoTimeBeforeTime, Friday, 27 August 2010 13:24 (eight years ago) link

Pitching triple crown winners:

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/awards/pitrip.shtml

(all the guys I mentioned, plus Jake Peavy)

And over the last 30-40 years, it's been just as rare as the hitting TC. Between 1972 and Clemens in 1997, only Dwight Gooden managed it (1985). In the AL, Clemens was the first to win the TC in 52 years! (as a Jays fan, I should have remembered that)

NoTimeBeforeTime, Friday, 27 August 2010 13:28 (eight years ago) link

as a J's fan i've been purging Clemens from my memory.

got electrolytes (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Friday, 27 August 2010 16:12 (eight years ago) link

As a Jays' fan (I think we just completed a Triple Crown), I do remember some coverage of Clemens' two TCs, but you're right, not a whole lot. I have no explanation as to why. There was a wire-service story in one of the Toronto papers this morning about Pujols and Votto chasing the TC, so maybe it's just about to get some attention. The story reminded me that Yaz and the other most recent TC winners were all in the AL; no one's done it in the NL since Medwick in '37.

One thing that jumped out at me when I looked at the Wikipedia list of TCs (they put hitters and pitchers on the same page) is the quality of names on there. The majority of players were first-tier, overwhelming HOF'ers, and the rest, almost without exception, were career stars of one magnitude or another. More than the MVP or Cy Young lists, I'd say (partly, but not wholly, explained by the fact that awards are subject to the whims of voters). The list of AL hitters is especially daunting: Lajoie, Cobb, Foxx, Gehrig, Williams (twice), Mantle, Robinson, Yastrzemski. When Yaz is the worst player on the list, that's some list.

I'm going to pretend I didn't just find out from an ILE thread that Pujols will be at the Glenn Beck rally this weekend.

clemenza, Friday, 27 August 2010 21:07 (eight years ago) link

I STILL BELIEVE in jay bruce

he's gonna hit 35HR next year (i've said this the past 2 years too but This Time It Counts)

― ciderpress, Thursday, August 26, 2010 10:35 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

apparently batting him leadoff was the secret catalyst

ciderpress, Saturday, 28 August 2010 01:47 (eight years ago) link

great timing huh

J0rdan S., Saturday, 28 August 2010 01:48 (eight years ago) link

I'm going to pretend I didn't just find out from an ILE thread that Pujols will be at the Glenn Beck rally this weekend.

― clemenza, Friday, August 27, 2010 2:07 PM (6 hours ago)

wow, just when i was starting to get lukewarm to the guy... lol.

_▂▅▇█▓▒░◕‿‿◕░▒▓█▇▅▂_ (Steve Shasta), Saturday, 28 August 2010 03:12 (eight years ago) link

apparently batting him leadoff was the secret catalyst

i like to call him "Jay the Bruce". that is all.

got electrolytes (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Saturday, 28 August 2010 05:27 (eight years ago) link

JR (Vegas)

Regarding the Triple Crown, I know RBI is a meaningless stat, having said that, I think it would still be fun to see Votto or Pujols win the Triple Crown. What are your thoughts?

Klaw (1:24 PM)

Mixed. On the one hand, it's fun to see someone chase a record or milestone that hasn't been touched in 40 years. On the other, won't it lead to a new emphasis on or love affair with RBI?

kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 28 August 2010 08:51 (eight years ago) link

That's like every bad stereotype about "stats" guys summed up in two lines. That might be the dumbest thing that KLaw's ever said in a chat.

NoTimeBeforeTime, Saturday, 28 August 2010 09:24 (eight years ago) link

B-b-but it WOULD reinforce the notion that RBI is a valuable stat.

kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 28 August 2010 13:25 (eight years ago) link

I like that little exchange; I think it's fine to have mixed feelings about the significance of a TC. (I guess I consider mixed feelings a victory from a sabermetrician.) The one part I find silly is the questioner's blithe description of RBI as meaningless. They're not meaningless! Flawed, sure, like a lot of stats. But if you were to go through everything Bill James has ever written, and I'd be surprised if he ever described RBI as meaningless. (Law's concern that a Triple Crown will lead to mass stupidity is kind of funny, though.)

clemenza, Saturday, 28 August 2010 13:26 (eight years ago) link

RBI make Joe Carter's career look Hall-worthy. They are meaningless in terms of evaluating players comparatively, so I don't know what other meaning they could have.

kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 28 August 2010 13:31 (eight years ago) link

...unless it's "I was attached to them in my youth, just like w/ Laverne & Shirley"

kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 28 August 2010 13:32 (eight years ago) link

I wrote a mammoth thing for my old fanzine on how wildly deceptive Carter's RBI counts were (using mostly situational stats from the old Elias annuals); I'm well aware of that. But again, it's a big leap from flawed to meaningless. An RBI means that someone was on base and you did something to get him (or, with a HR, yourself) home. That's not meaningless. As to whether you got a zillion chances to do so because you had Rickey Henderson and Roberto Alomar and Tony Gwynn batting ahead of you, like Carter did throughout his career, that's another issue, and you take that into account when necessary. But I still think you'll find that Joe Carters are outnumbered by guys who have high RBI counts because they're very good hitters.

clemenza, Saturday, 28 August 2010 13:45 (eight years ago) link

We keep ending up at the same place: you're a true believer, I'm not.

clemenza, Saturday, 28 August 2010 13:46 (eight years ago) link

I'm a true believer that you are trolling this board with stale ideas about 5-7 years after people got tired of talking about them.

RBIs are purely circumstantial, with the exception of the HR.

_▂▅▇█▓▒░◕‿‿◕░▒▓█▇▅▂_ (Steve Shasta), Saturday, 28 August 2010 13:59 (eight years ago) link

Let me go back to the Jennifer Doyle quote I posted on the sabermetric thread: "and know how to hold contradiction in their head without trying to resolve it." I don't think it's that difficult to navigate your way through the idea that RBI are another indicator of value with some players (most, I'd say), and not so much with others. Instead, "RBI are meaningless" seems to me to be grounded in a belief that because you sometimes get a case like Carter's, you better just throw the whole stat out for fear that anybody mistakes Joe Carter for a Hall of Famer. (A mistake the writers rather easily avoided.) That's why I find the Law's "won't it lead to a new emphasis on or love affair with RBI?" so funny. It's like he's afraid that, having internalized the idea that RBI should not be taken at face value, we're going to unlearn that because Albert Pujols wins a Triple Crown.

Shasta: geez, that's really a shame. Someone's questioning some ideas you hold dear, and you don't want to be questioned. Give me a break.

clemenza, Saturday, 28 August 2010 14:05 (eight years ago) link

Trolling? Really? Come on.

My totem animal is a hamburger. (WmC), Saturday, 28 August 2010 14:07 (eight years ago) link

RBIs are purely circumstantial

Well, no--RBI opportunities are purely circumstantial; to get the RBI, you have to do something.

I have no idea what constitutes trolling; I'm sure there's a sabermetric formula that makes that clear. But I've been posting on ILM and ILE for six or seven years (formerly under my real name); just started posting on ILB maybe six months ago. I mean, is there some kind of hazing ritual I was supposed to sign up for beforehand?

clemenza, Saturday, 28 August 2010 14:14 (eight years ago) link

rbi's are a fine descriptive stat. when i read a box score it's cool to know who drove in the runs. i'm not sure that the only value of a stat is that you can use it to compare players.

call all destroyer, Saturday, 28 August 2010 14:16 (eight years ago) link

or do u guys find wpa completely meaningless too

call all destroyer, Saturday, 28 August 2010 14:16 (eight years ago) link

This whole Capt. Save-a-trad-stat is funny, maybe I'm taking you too seriously. What sacred cow are you going to reclaim next Clemenza, perhaps Wins as the absolute measure of a pitching performance? I have no problems with trolling, it's just a bit anachronistic on this board which maybe has a long history of debating trad vs. sabr and IMHO feels a bit played out in 2010, but i think I mentioned on that other thread might be worth revisiting...? Not sure if your arguments are really shifting the paradigm though tbh.

Now I have a hot chick waiting in my bed busy weekend y'all, enjoy your day!

_▂▅▇█▓▒░◕‿‿◕░▒▓█▇▅▂_ (Steve Shasta), Saturday, 28 August 2010 14:23 (eight years ago) link

If some of this stuff has been debated before, fair enough. But it's not like I'm pulling it out a hat--on this thread, the question of whether or not RBI mean anything ties in directly with the question of whether or not the Triple Crown means anything, which ties in directly with the subject's thread, Albert Pujols. It's not a mission; it just kind of evolved.

I do find your irritation at having your worldview questioned highly ironic. I'm trying to remember the Abstract where Bill James wrote, "We should question everything. Until my ideas pass into conventional wisdom, though--we can stop questioning at that point and just start congratulating ourselves about how smart we are. And if anybody doesn't fall into line, we'll just yell 'Troll!'" Maybe I missed that one.

clemenza, Saturday, 28 August 2010 14:34 (eight years ago) link

B-b-but it WOULD reinforce the notion that RBI is a valuable stat.

― kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 28 August 2010 13:25 (2 hours ago)

No it wouldn't ... people already view RBI as a valuable stat, I don't see how someone would argue that it becomes even *more* valuable because somebody leads the league in RBI + a few other categories.

I was really LOLing at the way Klaw framed his response -- as if RBI was some kind of evil political entity that could rise up and destroy the foundations of baseball.

NoTimeBeforeTime, Saturday, 28 August 2010 15:37 (eight years ago) link

Clemenza -- I don't know if anyone is really arguing that RBI are completely meaningless, but it's really difficult to use RBI as a metric for comparing players (never mind comparing across eras, but even for comparing players on the same team in the same year ... Joe Carter is a good example of this). Having numbers as a basis for comparing players is like, 99% of the reason that there are so many stats in baseball. What's the point of relying on data that doesn't help to show why Player A is better than Player B?

RBI is also a fairly arbitrary stat ... as you prob know, it was one of the last major official stats to be instituted (in 1921, I think). When you think about it, the definition of RBI is pretty contrived. There's no obvious reason why it should have the kind of importance that it does.

NoTimeBeforeTime, Saturday, 28 August 2010 15:54 (eight years ago) link

i would argue that stats were developed to describe the events of a game and comparing players is a secondary use.

call all destroyer, Saturday, 28 August 2010 16:02 (eight years ago) link

Stat categories were invented to keep track of what happened in a game, but we use stats for comparing players. You don't really learn anything about players from a single boxscore, but a season's worth of boxscores is meaningful.

NoTimeBeforeTime, Saturday, 28 August 2010 16:11 (eight years ago) link

Thanks to both of you for your sanity.

NoTime: We both seem to find Law's comment funny for the same reason, so we're starting on the same page. I took "meaningless" right from JR in Vegas's question, and it developed from there. I really and truly am cognizant of the inherent flaws in RBI, and have been for quite some time. Even if I hadn't been, I think any Jays fan who experienced the Carter years would quickly arrive at such an understanding. I think my argument with those guys is simply that I don't want to throw RBI out the window altogether, and, if I'm understanding them correctly, they do.

One thing I like about the Triple Crown is that it ensures RBI do not exist in a vacuum--you also have to hit home runs, and you have to hit for a high average. You're not going to see a Joe Carter-like player win a Triple Crown.

clemenza, Saturday, 28 August 2010 16:11 (eight years ago) link

Someone who makes a living evaluating prospects (like Klaw) probably has even fewer reasons to care about RBI ... even old school scouts would probably get laughed at for saying that so-and-so is 2nd on his college team in RBI's, that shows he's a gamer and we should draft him. What do RBI's tell us about a player's raw ability? (answer: probably nothing) So why should we use RBI to gauge ability at the major league level?

NoTimeBeforeTime, Saturday, 28 August 2010 16:17 (eight years ago) link

(sigh)

You're watching a game. Your team has a runner on a second and the next guy gets a hit and knocks him in. You get excited, he gets an RBI. At the end of the year, there's a number that more or less describes how many times that happened. That's all--not how many times as a percentage, not whether or not he's a better or worse player than they guy he knocked in, and not whether or not he has character. Just how many times. If other people read those things into the number--and I will agree with you that they do--that's their problem; I know how to apply some context, so I don't feel there's any great need to get rid of the number.

clemenza, Saturday, 28 August 2010 16:28 (eight years ago) link

ntbt you keep shifting the argument--no one is saying we should use rbi's to evaluate a player's ability.

call all destroyer, Saturday, 28 August 2010 16:39 (eight years ago) link

I wasn't arguing with you guys in my last post, I was trying to make the case for a guy like Klaw (I have no idea if he'd agree with my post or not), at least based on what he implied in his chat comment. Although I think it's a reasonable point -- what happens between amateur and pro baseball where RBI's suddenly matter a lot more to so many people?

I totally agree with clemenza's last post ... if a guy knocks in the winning run in the ninth, he's the hero. If he does it a bunch of times in the season, then that a nice story, and it's worth keeping track of those things.

NoTimeBeforeTime, Saturday, 28 August 2010 16:54 (eight years ago) link

Last post before I head out for some...what's that called again?..."fresh air." One thing I desire in a statistic is that I have the ability to calculate it myself. One of the reasons that WAR and VORP and Win Shares have limited appeal to me is that they involve a series of calculations that are well outside my scope. Conversely, I think James's RC/27 outs is the greatest stat ever invented because a) it avoids most of the blind spots of traditional stats, b) it produces a number that's very easy to get a handle on (a team of this player would be expected to score this may runs), and c) if I have a calculator handy, I can figure it out myself quickly and easily. I'll give WAR and VORP the first two, but not the third. (Actually, I would always use the easier and slightly less accurate RC/25.5 outs.)

clemenza, Saturday, 28 August 2010 17:04 (eight years ago) link

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/116207-albert-pujols-picks-up-award-at-glenn-beck-rally

When will Albert stop winning awards???

Jeff, Saturday, 28 August 2010 17:37 (eight years ago) link

(sigh)

You're watching a game. Your team has a runner on a second and the next guy gets a hit and knocks him in. You get excited, he gets an RBI. At the end of the year, there's a number that more or less describes how many times that happened. That's all--not how many times as a percentage, not whether or not he's a better or worse player than they guy he knocked in, and not whether or not he has character. Just how many times. If other people read those things into the number--and I will agree with you that they do--that's their problem; I know how to apply some context, so I don't feel there's any great need to get rid of the number.

― clemenza, Saturday, August 28, 2010 12:28 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this is pretty otm, i generally think that no stats are completely worthless as long as you understand exactly what they measure and how they correlate with other measures. i think the attitude of a lot of people like Law is "people aren't gonna stop using this number to evaluate players unless we get rid of it completely" which i don't think is the only approach here.

ciderpress, Saturday, 28 August 2010 19:00 (eight years ago) link

Heretic. Apostate. Troll. On behalf of Steve Shasta, I cast thee out!

(Fresh air is good. Sunshine is fine.)

clemenza, Saturday, 28 August 2010 19:08 (eight years ago) link

on the other hand, i'm not quite sure which i find more gross aesthetically - a stat which tells you something that's unhelpful (RBI) or a stat which tells you something incomplete (AVG)

ciderpress, Saturday, 28 August 2010 19:12 (eight years ago) link

Unless you believe in a single, all-encompassing stat like Win Shares or WAR claim to be, then all stats are incomplete. I don't think any stat is inherently unhelpful either. RBI does tell you something about the season a player is having, it just doesn't measure what a lot of people think it measures.

NoTimeBeforeTime, Saturday, 28 August 2010 19:19 (eight years ago) link

An RBI means that someone was on base and you did something to get him (or, with a HR, yourself) home. That's not meaningless.

No; driving in the run during game X is NOT meaningless. Toting em all up and saying Joe Shlabotnik had 12 fewer than Roy Hobbs this year, THAT'S meaningless.

kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 28 August 2010 19:19 (eight years ago) link

How can something that has meaning at the game level not have any meaning at the seasonal level? Provided, once again, you're aware of context. I'm not trying to be difficult; I sincerely don't get that.

clemenza, Saturday, 28 August 2010 19:23 (eight years ago) link

cause over the course of a season the fact that roy had 12 more than joe basically becomes random--a function of the opportunities that they both had etc. etc.

call all destroyer, Saturday, 28 August 2010 19:26 (eight years ago) link

i mean hell if in a single game joe had 5 and roy had none that doesn't say anything about if joe is a better ballplayer--just that he contributed more in that one game.

call all destroyer, Saturday, 28 August 2010 19:27 (eight years ago) link

btw Shlabotnik's still not a deserving All-Star

J0rdan S., Saturday, 28 August 2010 19:27 (eight years ago) link

a function of the opportunities that they both had etc. etc.

Yes; that's the context. I'm not arguing that we lose that--it's crucial. But the fact that Shlabotnik did this great thing to win last night's game, and he went on to do it 99 more times over the course of the season, I don't want to lose that, either.

clemenza, Saturday, 28 August 2010 19:32 (eight years ago) link

This is exhausting. I think I need to go find an argument about racism or abortion or religion, something genial like that.

clemenza, Saturday, 28 August 2010 19:38 (eight years ago) link

except not all RBIs are equally "great things"

xp

well I'm tearing you a new one over on the Scott Pilgrim thread :)

kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 28 August 2010 19:38 (eight years ago) link

yeah clemenza we shouldn't "lose" it but do you see how over the course of 162 games there are so many variables that make it hard to isolate the *meaning* of x rbi's--a problem we don't have in a single game

call all destroyer, Saturday, 28 August 2010 19:43 (eight years ago) link

Acknowledged--six times over!

Thanks for the heads-up, Morbius; answered.

clemenza, Saturday, 28 August 2010 19:49 (eight years ago) link

Since this is now the unofficial Triple Crown thread ... I just realized that Halladay has a chance to win the pitching TC this year (he leads in ERA and K, and is one off the lead in W).

NoTimeBeforeTime, Monday, 30 August 2010 11:34 (eight years ago) link

I'm assuming that's for both leagues, too. Wow.

clemenza, Monday, 30 August 2010 12:30 (eight years ago) link

0-3 for Albert, down to .316; Votto up to .327, with 3 RBI tonight. I'm ready to switch my allegiance. I'm that loyal.

clemenza, Wednesday, 1 September 2010 03:49 (eight years ago) link

i like them both but its pretty likely that they'll kill each other's chances at it

ciderpress, Wednesday, 1 September 2010 03:56 (eight years ago) link

Omar Infante (.341) still has an outside shot at the batting title even if he doesn't hit 502 PA.

Donovan Dagnabbit (WmC), Wednesday, 1 September 2010 04:03 (eight years ago) link

Will he be close? If not, he'll get charged with a lot oh-fers to bring him to 502.

clemenza, Wednesday, 1 September 2010 04:05 (eight years ago) link

He's at 370 with 30 games to go...hits leadoff, so he'll probably manage four PA/game. I'm guessing he'll finish right around 500. He's crazy hot this year, I can see him doing it.

Donovan Dagnabbit (WmC), Wednesday, 1 September 2010 04:14 (eight years ago) link

I think Ciderpress is probably right, but if one of them does break free of the other, that'll be almost funny if Omar Infante gets in there and mucks things up. Poor guy--he was a villain for getting picked for the All-Star Game, now he can be a villain for winning the batting title.

clemenza, Wednesday, 1 September 2010 04:22 (eight years ago) link

Ahem, Carlos Gonzalez is htting .326, let's not rule him out quite yet.

Mark C, Wednesday, 1 September 2010 10:03 (eight years ago) link

That "ahem" was rather prescient--after today's game, Gonzalez is at 31/97/.340. But I guess I'm not as excited by the idea of a Triple Crown per se as I thought I was. I was excited about Pujols winning one. He's out of it now. If Gonzalez were to win, though, it'd be every bit as suspect as most every other great season out of Colorado. He's got a 350-point differential in home/road slugging; he's Ruth at home, Vernon Wells on the road.

This has been some bizarre up-and-down story, though.

clemenza, Tuesday, 7 September 2010 02:28 (eight years ago) link

Yep, there's no two ways about it - the Triple Crown is a title that Coors will always be a big help with. On the other hand, Matt Holliday, Todd Helton, Larry Walker and Dante Bichette never won a triple crown, and you still need sustained excellence to even get close, so I can live with Cargo getting the plaudits.

I discovered earlier that he's not even on the ballot for 5-tool Player of the Year? Now *that* is dumb.

Mark C, Tuesday, 7 September 2010 10:43 (eight years ago) link

"Vernon Wells on the road"

Vernon Wells doesn't have an 8 to 1 SO to BB ratio.

Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 7 September 2010 12:08 (eight years ago) link

75 K, 9 BB--yikes, hadn't noticed that. I just meant that Wells' home run rate and slugging pct. were comparable. And I didn't mean to be dismissive of Gonzalez's season; it'd still be an accomplishment, albeit a compromised one.

clemenza, Tuesday, 7 September 2010 17:06 (eight years ago) link

As has been pointed out, the fact that players like Cargo are SO strong at Coors makes them (and forgive me if this is stating the bleeding obvious) fantastic players for Colorado to sign. Cargo IS in consideration for the triple crown (and, if you believe some of the more ardent Roxkies fans, the MVP), and if he didn't play at Coors, he wouldn't be. So hallelujah, as a Rox fan, that he does!

Mark C, Tuesday, 7 September 2010 22:01 (eight years ago) link

Nothing especially startling here, but it does lay out numerically what's pretty clear: Pujols out, Votto longshot, Gonzalez improbably alive.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/cliff_corcoran/09/08/triple.crown.chances/index.html?eref=sihp

clemenza, Thursday, 9 September 2010 01:55 (eight years ago) link

(This followed an exchange where KLaw said tying LaRussa staying to Pujols' re-signing was absurd)

John (St. Louis)

Pujols' future is not all about money, you're absolutely wrong about that . . . He isn't a greedy person

Klaw (1:15 PM)

Right. That's why, after the Cardinals overpaid him by a factor of 2.5 for his last pre-arbitration year, he cut them absolutely no discount on the long-term deal, and made a stink about how they had to give him that deal or he'd go year-to-year and leave as a free agent. (I'm not criticizing that stance. Just pointing out that he, like just about every other human being in history, has an inherently greedy streak.)

kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 9 September 2010 17:59 (eight years ago) link

via Clem Comly of SABR:

Divisional Triple Crown Winners 1969-2009 (196 divisional races)

Williams 1972 E NL 37 122 .333
Foster 1977 W NL 52 149 .320
Rice 1978 E AL 46 139 .315
Bagwell 1994 C NL 39 116 .368
Belle 1998 C AL 49 152 .328
Ramirez 1999 C AL 44 165 .333
Guerrero 2000 E NL 44 123 .345
Holliday 2007 W NL 36 137 .340
Pujols 2008 C NL 37 116 .357

kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 11 September 2010 06:06 (eight years ago) link

James did something similar a few years ago...I think he may have looked at guys who won or came close to winning their league Triple Crown. I checked Delgado for 2000: he took HR and RBI in the A.L. East, and finished second in BA (almost 30 points behind Garciaparra, though, so he wasn't really close).

It looks like a dead issue now, unless Gonzalez has at least a couple of multi-homer games. Which, if nothing else, shows that whatever you think of RBI or BA, this is a very hard thing to do.

clemenza, Saturday, 11 September 2010 16:31 (eight years ago) link

I cant wait to see the list of assholes who dont vote for Pujols as MVP because the Cardinals dont make the playoffs.

mayor jingleberries, Monday, 13 September 2010 18:34 (eight years ago) link

well, there are other defensible reasons to list him second or third.

kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Monday, 13 September 2010 19:04 (eight years ago) link

like hitting an infield pop up this year.

sanskrit, Monday, 13 September 2010 20:36 (eight years ago) link

i can think of two reasons: Joey. Votto.

got electrolytes (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Monday, 13 September 2010 20:45 (eight years ago) link

Ditto to Thinwall and Morbius. I'd normally agree with you about Pujols, but surely all votes for Votto (vote-o's?) this year are perfectly reasonable. Even a vote for Halladay seems fine, although somewhere along the way they stopped giving MVPs to pitchers.

If you subscribe to James's site, he has a big thing up today in the "Ask Bill" section about why he thinks no one wins the Triple Crown anymore.

clemenza, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 00:14 (eight years ago) link

Only NL players w/ WARP3 of 8+ are Wainwright, Halladay, Hudson.

kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 00:30 (eight years ago) link

is WARP just WAR using BP stats instead of fangraphs/etc ones?

ciderpress, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 00:33 (eight years ago) link

I don't keep track of these things anymore

kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 00:47 (eight years ago) link

That's when I'm no longer a by-the-numbers guy. To me, whether Wainwright's WARP or VORP or whatever is a little higher or a little lower than Pujols', he can't be the league MVP because he's not the MVP of his own team. Absent any drastic fluctuations, Pujols is.

clemenza, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 01:04 (eight years ago) link

i just realized the relevance of the pop-up thing! wow!

got electrolytes (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 01:18 (eight years ago) link

^^^ yeah, this kinda blew my mind too

NoTimeBeforeTime, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 11:11 (eight years ago) link

I STILL BELIEVE in jay bruce

he's gonna hit 35HR next year (i've said this the past 2 years too but This Time It Counts)

― ciderpress, Friday, 27 August 2010 02:35 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

has now hit 7 HR in his last 5 games

ciderpress, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 13:07 (eight years ago) link

anyway, Verducci's emphasis on the "value" of TC stats for "casual fans" means about as much to me as "casual" movie fans who think the Academy Awards are definitive.

kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 17:31 (eight years ago) link

Surely you'd agree that Verducci is much smarter than, say, a hack movie writer who takes the Academy Awards really seriously.

clemenza, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 18:49 (eight years ago) link

I surely can't imagine why anyone would care about that accomplishment.

Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 19:34 (eight years ago) link

let's put it this way: was Ducky Medwick the last great NL hitter?

kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 19:41 (eight years ago) link

Muscles Medwick.

Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 19:54 (eight years ago) link

Again, I didn't want to open this up again, because we reached an impasse last time. All I'm saying: Verducci's a smart guy and a good baseball writer, and in that stuff I mitakenly quoted on the steroids thread, I think he does a really good job of conveying why those of us who have fully absorbed 30-some years of Bill James are interested in, even excited by, the (virtually non-existent at this point) Triple Crown chase. I'll read it again, but I don't think Verducci claimed anywhere that Ducky Medwick was the last great N.L. hitter. Once again, I think you're taking our perhaps nostalgic attachment to the concept of a Triple Crown and inferring all sorts of other stuff into that that simply isn't there. James himself has recently written two or three times about the Triple Crown. Not dismissively, but as an interested fan.

clemenza, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:05 (eight years ago) link

I never knew that smart people could be interested in stuff that I'm not interested in.

Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:21 (eight years ago) link

I'm not saying don't care about it. I'm just saying don't try to convince me that it means anything beyond "this guy had a great season".

no gut busting joke can change history (polyphonic), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 20:34 (eight years ago) link

It means at least one thing more: "this guy had a great season, and he also did something that no one's done since 1967 because it's a really hard thing to do." I don't think I've made any claims beyond that. And for what it's worth: comparing one's response to an Academy Award winner and one's response to a Triple Crown Winner is perfectly valid, and that's all that Morbius said, and hopefully all that he meant. Because to compare the achievment of winning an Academy Award to the achievement of winning a Triple Crown would be a non sequitur. One is based on the votes of a group of people and is wholly opinion-based; the other measures the actual accomplishments of an individual and is wholly factual. You may not like what it measures, or the way that it goes about measuring it, both those are separate issues.

I wanted Pujols to win because I knew that all of your objections would be taken care of by the fact it was Pujols. Pujols wins the Triple Crown, and I'm pretty sure that when I start looking at home/road splits, and RBI opportunities, and all the rest of it, it won't be a case of "God, no--this guy Pujols is a total fraud!" If Gonzalez wins one, great--I can walk and chew gum at the same time. I'll think, "He had a great season, and he did something that no one's done since 1967," and I'll also think, "He wouldn't have done it had he played somewhere other than Colorado, which really inflates his home stats." That's a lot to keep track of at once. I can do it.

clemenza, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 21:48 (eight years ago) link

If Gonzo gets the Triple Crown I won't have any objections whatsoever, but if he gets the MVP that's another story.

no gut busting joke can change history (polyphonic), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 22:16 (eight years ago) link

Comparing MVP winners or Hall of Fame inductees to Academy Award winners, now that would be valid. Baseball writers, for all of the specious picks you can charge them with, are infinitely smarter and more reliable than whoever the hell it is who votes on Academy Awards, especially the past 20-25 years. (I know: "members of the Academy.")

clemenza, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 22:25 (eight years ago) link

There is only a certain degree to which you can ignore greatness in baseball. Baseball writers know that Alex Rodriguez and JD Drew and Manny Ramirez exist and are useful players, even if they don't always appreciate aspects of their efforts. Meanwhile, Oscar voters generally haven't even heard of the best movies of the year, or appreciate what is good about them.

no gut busting joke can change history (polyphonic), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 22:29 (eight years ago) link

it's alot easier to make an obscure movie that's very good than it is to be a very good obscure MLB player.

got electrolytes (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 14 September 2010 22:43 (eight years ago) link

The major difference, undoubtedly, is that Academy Awards are (most of the time) hugely interconnected to box-office and advertising campaigns and lots of other matters that have nothing to do with the films themselves. Even when they appear not to be, they probably are; I figured that "the Academy" was trying to make a statement last year by giving The Hurt Locker best picture over Avatar. (Not saying anything about the films themselves--thought the first was overrated, no interest in the second.) No such economic push-and-pull influences baseball writers, although I suppose that now and again you get a writer tilt towards an underrated/underpaid player in the MVP voting over a 15-million-dollar guy.

clemenza, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 22:53 (eight years ago) link

Having said all that--here I go being a nostalgic dimwit again--when something I love is nominated for an Academy Award (Bill Murray in Lost in Translation, Man on Wire, etc.), I root for it, and if it wins, I'm irrationally happy.

clemenza, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 22:59 (eight years ago) link

four months pass...

Joe (Milwaukee)

Just curious as to how long of a deal you would, were you the Cards GM, offer Pujols. He'll age well won't he?
Rob Neyer (12:05 PM)

Look, I'm going to say this now and maybe never again in this space, but ... There are still some reasonably intelligent people with reasonable doubts about Pujols' age. Just for the sake of argument, if he's actually 33 or 34 would you give him eight years? Nine years? Ten?

SHASTA BAIT

NoTimeBeforeTime, Wednesday, 26 January 2011 12:34 (eight years ago) link

one month passes...

So glad Pearlman doesn't have a big gig anymore.

reggaeton for the painfully alone (polyphonic), Monday, 7 March 2011 01:08 (eight years ago) link

haha tru

mookieproof, Monday, 7 March 2011 01:16 (eight years ago) link

one month passes...

2011 capsule:

.156/.243/.250
MLB leading 6 GIDPs
2-10 w/ RISP (haha, actually better than w/o RISP)
2 Errors (total of 4 in 2010)

City of Jorts (Steve Shasta), Sunday, 10 April 2011 20:52 (eight years ago) link

#arbitraryendpoints

ciderpress, Sunday, 10 April 2011 20:57 (eight years ago) link

#captsaveapoohole

City of Jorts (Steve Shasta), Sunday, 10 April 2011 21:03 (eight years ago) link

#shastasbestweekever

bnw, Sunday, 10 April 2011 22:01 (eight years ago) link

btw what were they jeering in sf? "Get one hit" or something?

bnw, Sunday, 10 April 2011 22:03 (eight years ago) link

Story on 60 Minutes coming up--is this new?

clemenza, Sunday, 10 April 2011 23:14 (eight years ago) link

maybe he reveals something TERRIBLE in the 60 minutes segment...maybe that's why he's been sucking ass all week...just knowing that everyone will know his terrible secret as soon as the segment airs...god what could it be!

Z S, Sunday, 10 April 2011 23:18 (eight years ago) link

It'll be interesting to see him sitting under a high-powered lamp, sweating, getting the third degree from Leslie Stahl.

clemenza, Sunday, 10 April 2011 23:22 (eight years ago) link

Maybe he'll finally admit that he's really 34 years old, right Shasta?

Matt Groening's Cousin (Leee), Sunday, 10 April 2011 23:33 (eight years ago) link

7 GiDPs...

City of Jorts (Steve Shasta), Tuesday, 12 April 2011 02:05 (eight years ago) link

i think he noticed how much the yankees overpaid jeter and is trying to emulate his game at all costs

J0rdan S., Tuesday, 12 April 2011 02:07 (eight years ago) link

man.

Z S, Tuesday, 12 April 2011 03:39 (eight years ago) link

even when the cardinals are winning, it's just not much fun when pujols isn't effortlessly dominating

Z S, Tuesday, 12 April 2011 03:39 (eight years ago) link

sorry, it's just a comment from some random on albert's fangraphs page but:

Fun Fact:

ALBERT Einstein had an IQ of 160. That means he is 60% more intelligent than the average human.

that is wrong on so many levels

Z S, Tuesday, 12 April 2011 03:41 (eight years ago) link

wait, sorry, albert einstein, not pujuls...so the 160 part may be correct. the other part, not so much. i will stop talking to myself on this thread...when albert finally gets a hit.

Z S, Tuesday, 12 April 2011 03:42 (eight years ago) link

didn't he open cold a couple of seasons back and wind up with 40+ HRs?

boots get knocked from here to czechoslovakier (milo z), Tuesday, 12 April 2011 06:29 (eight years ago) link

I think it was 2007, when his final line was .327/.429/.568

boots get knocked from here to czechoslovakier (milo z), Tuesday, 12 April 2011 06:32 (eight years ago) link

One thing that wouldn't surprise me would be if, at 31, Pujols is on the other side of his peak, and that last year's slightly less imposing line is where he settles in for the next couple of years. He starts at a place where he could probably decline 5% a season and still be the best hitter in the game five years from now.

clemenza, Tuesday, 12 April 2011 11:25 (eight years ago) link

he could have entered a decline phase, for sure. i mean beyond the age issue, one only needs to look back to who was arguably the previous "best righthanded hitter in the game", frank thomas. 7 eye-popping offensive seasons, a couple of off years in his 30-31 age seasons, one more MVP-caliber year, and the rest of the way he was dealing with injuries and only had two more seasons which could be considered HOF-caliber or even approaching his peak. i think big hurt had other issues that pujols does not have (body size, nagging injuries, lost seasons) but sometimes these epic hitters just drop off out of nowhere.

omar little, Tuesday, 12 April 2011 17:52 (eight years ago) link

2 AB hitting streak right now

it's time for the fish in the perculator (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 13 April 2011 01:57 (eight years ago) link

xp no doubt big first basemen have an annoying habit of falling completely off a cliff.

Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 13 April 2011 03:10 (eight years ago) link

yep, really falling apart

your generation appalls me (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 16 April 2011 03:43 (eight years ago) link

all the cards needed was to feast on the nl west to get it together

strongly recommend. unless you're a bitch (mayor jingleberries), Saturday, 16 April 2011 03:46 (eight years ago) link

one month passes...

2011 capsule:

.156/.243/.250
MLB leading 6 GIDPs
2-10 w/ RISP (haha, actually better than w/o RISP)
2 Errors (total of 4 in 2010)

― City of Jorts (Steve Shasta), Sunday, April 10, 2011 1:52 PM (1 month ago)

Is it okay to talk about this yet? Free agency looming and all...

.267/.336/.415
MLB leading 13 GIDPs
.327 w/ RiSP (major improvement)
5 Errors (total of 4 in 2010, projecting to 16, a career high)

This is a pretty major statistical depression compared to his career #s for a supposed 31 year old ya? Is he hurt again?

it's a meme i made and i like (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 25 May 2011 05:26 (eight years ago) link

errors are a subjective irrelevancy

the gay bloggers are onto the faggot tweets (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 25 May 2011 11:26 (eight years ago) link

13 XBH, 14 GIDP

A Chuck Person's Guide to Mark Aguirre (Andy K), Wednesday, 25 May 2011 12:37 (eight years ago) link

back to full market value, haters?

the gay bloggers are onto the faggot tweets (Dr Morbius), Monday, 6 June 2011 05:35 (eight years ago) link

I realize he's still only slugging .473, but if you think that's gonna last...

the gay bloggers are onto the faggot tweets (Dr Morbius), Monday, 6 June 2011 05:37 (eight years ago) link

Albert usually takes it upon himself to prove Shasta wrong.

bnw, Monday, 6 June 2011 14:03 (eight years ago) link

i'm a hater, not because I think he sucks or anything, but because he calls out other teams for celebrating too much on the field and untucking their jerseys while constantly admiring his own home runs and doing things like high stepping his way to home plate, it's like fuck you dude, you can't have your cake and eat it too. btw I'm almost always pro-celebration

frogbs, Tuesday, 7 June 2011 13:53 (eight years ago) link

see I pretty much don't pay attention to that stuff (unless it's the Phillies or Braves)

the gay bloggers are onto the faggot tweets (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 7 June 2011 13:57 (eight years ago) link

I think Hinske is the only guy we've got right now who really likes the look of his own HRs, and he's not really egregious about it.

what made my hamburger disappear (WmC), Tuesday, 7 June 2011 14:07 (eight years ago) link

I miss Reggie Jackson: "The only reason I don't like playing in the World Series is I can't watch myself play."

clemenza, Thursday, 9 June 2011 02:25 (eight years ago) link

two months pass...

For that love/hate question that was posted last week, I should have slightly expanded my answer: I love not just stats in general, but also the statistical symmetry of certain careers. Those few players who never have a less than good year--I've loved looking at the career boxes of such players since I first started obsessing over stats as a kid. He'll have to finish strong, but Pujols is still within range of another .300/40/100 year. I expect Morbius or someone else will point out that who cares if he finishes .297/39/98, the difference means nothing. True enough--but .300/40/100 looks nicer.

clemenza, Monday, 15 August 2011 02:56 (eight years ago) link

.300/40/100 would be nice - but .300/30/100 is his gold standard - he's never failed to reach it.

ZIPS projects him for .289/38/100, fwiw

the guy who is too intense about the bean toss game (Z S), Monday, 15 August 2011 03:01 (eight years ago) link

he's been on fire (aka his normal self) ever since his injury, and in fact for the week leading up to his injury. his at bats have that old inevitability of greatness that they always have

the guy who is too intense about the bean toss game (Z S), Monday, 15 August 2011 03:02 (eight years ago) link

hilarious that .289/38/100 is a "down season" for albert. but it's true that he's been noticeably worse this year. particularly with his walk rate (8.5%). normally he's up around 15-16%.

the guy who is too intense about the bean toss game (Z S), Monday, 15 August 2011 03:04 (eight years ago) link

he got another hit as I was typing that. and earlier tonight, he crushed a HR for ~460 ft - longest HR in nu-Busch Stadium history

the guy who is too intense about the bean toss game (Z S), Monday, 15 August 2011 03:05 (eight years ago) link

Yeah, I forgot he's had a few seasons under 40 HR. Seeing as he's almost cleared the HR bar, I hope he singles in and doubles in enough runs the rest of the way to get to .300/30/100 then. He's got the most perfect career box ever, without even the normal blips, gaps, and slow starts you see in with Ruth, Williams, Bonds, etc.

clemenza, Monday, 15 August 2011 03:14 (eight years ago) link

yeah looking at his year-by-year stats is just beautiful, the man is a machine

tine nic (k3vin k.), Monday, 15 August 2011 03:16 (eight years ago) link

my favorite stat about Pujols is that if you take his worst years for BA/OBP/SLG/HR/RBI (not including this season) and assume THAT as his career average, he's still a hall of famer.

frogbs, Monday, 15 August 2011 13:50 (eight years ago) link

okay, that's not really a stat. but still - and I did post this in another thread - but here are the numbers:

.312/.394/.561 with 32 HRs

frogbs, Monday, 15 August 2011 13:51 (eight years ago) link

What happened to his walks?

Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Monday, 15 August 2011 16:47 (eight years ago) link

he's chasing more balls & making contact on more balls out of the zone than he ever has

J0rdan S., Monday, 15 August 2011 16:55 (eight years ago) link

i'm not sure why that is -- maybe he's pressing? his walk rate has actually been worse in the past two months even tho he's boosted his statline considerably. idk what to make of it.

J0rdan S., Monday, 15 August 2011 16:55 (eight years ago) link

Perhaps pitchers are sensing he's more vulnerable this season and pitching more strikes to him? I'm pretty sure there's a way to find out somewhere but I wouldn't know where to start.

Mark C, Tuesday, 16 August 2011 10:48 (eight years ago) link

The games I've seen with him it seems like they're able to get him to chase a lot of high fastballs and good curveballs in the dirt, but he seems to have made some adjustments as of late.

frogbs, Tuesday, 16 August 2011 12:30 (eight years ago) link

two weeks pass...

Huge game last night. .300/40/100 definitely within sight; .400/.600, not going to happen.

clemenza, Friday, 2 September 2011 13:33 (seven years ago) link

16 rbi the harder part now. pretty amazing 11 years.

very public (bnw), Friday, 2 September 2011 14:06 (seven years ago) link

He's a little on the fence there--16 in 25 games works out to almost exactly a 100-RBI rate--but he just needs to maintain his current pace, which is historically below normal.

clemenza, Friday, 2 September 2011 14:16 (seven years ago) link

two weeks pass...

Currently sitting at .303/36 HR/97 RBIs.

gutta gutta island (s. morris), Wednesday, 21 September 2011 03:27 (seven years ago) link

I check the boxscore every night; .300/40/100 still within reach, although 4 HR in 8 games a stretch. He's definitely moved up the MVP ladder the past few weeks--6th or 7th?

clemenza, Wednesday, 21 September 2011 03:53 (seven years ago) link

.300/30/100 is the benchmark that he's hit the last 10 years though, and it looks like he'll come close, pending a few more RBIs.

he'd deserve MVP votes only if he manages to carry the cards to the wildcard. otherwise, i'm just remembering all of those inning-ending ground ball double plays he hit into during the doldrums of April and May.

rebels against newton (Z S), Wednesday, 21 September 2011 03:56 (seven years ago) link

He's up to 29 GDP, a career worst--most years he's been in the 19-23 range. .300/30/100 should be a cinch on the RBI front (3 more); if he misses, it'll be average that does him in. The Ted Williams scenario: he goes into the last game of the season hitting .299573 or something--would he play or sit (assuming the wild card's not at stake)?

clemenza, Wednesday, 21 September 2011 04:02 (seven years ago) link

How did the Cardinals end up 2.5 off the Braves in the Wild Card?

Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 21 September 2011 12:09 (seven years ago) link

They've won 11 of their last 13 while the braves have lost a handful of close games and been kinda mediocre down the stretch

rebels against newton (Z S), Wednesday, 21 September 2011 12:59 (seven years ago) link

jeezus clem, sitting to protect .300, a true dinosaur-era chestnut

incredibly middlebrow (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 21 September 2011 14:03 (seven years ago) link

He'd be protecting the beauty and symmetry of his career box, not the actual (and meaningless) difference between .299 and .300...but I know you don't care about such stuff!

clemenza, Wednesday, 21 September 2011 14:17 (seven years ago) link

plus they finish at Houston, so if he can't light them up...

incredibly middlebrow (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 21 September 2011 14:29 (seven years ago) link

ha ha

Porto for Pyros (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Wednesday, 21 September 2011 15:23 (seven years ago) link

Anyway, he's up to .304--likely won't even be an issue.

clemenza, Wednesday, 21 September 2011 15:26 (seven years ago) link

For my eyes only! 1-2, 1 RBI--he needs one more hit and one more RBI...and he should try to win the game, too.

clemenza, Thursday, 29 September 2011 00:43 (seven years ago) link

.299/99...noooooo!

clemenza, Thursday, 29 September 2011 02:31 (seven years ago) link

^numerologist

incredibly middlebrow (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 29 September 2011 02:35 (seven years ago) link

could still get game 163

very public (bnw), Thursday, 29 September 2011 03:35 (seven years ago) link

eh, not looking likely...

was this his "worst" season to date?

citation needed (Steve Shasta), Thursday, 29 September 2011 03:37 (seven years ago) link

by far

k3vin k., Thursday, 29 September 2011 03:44 (seven years ago) link

embarrassing disaster imo

very public (bnw), Thursday, 29 September 2011 03:49 (seven years ago) link

It's all downhill from here now that he is finally in his late 20s.

citation needed (Steve Shasta), Thursday, 29 September 2011 04:13 (seven years ago) link

two years pass...

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BfFGBb7CMAAF3HL.jpg

mookieproof, Tuesday, 28 January 2014 16:22 (five years ago) link

I'll put this here...Didn't know you could make up and download your own WAR graphs on Fangraphs. Here's one for cumulative WAR showing Pujols' downturn the last two seasons:

http://i1059.photobucket.com/albums/t427/sayhey1/cumulativewar_zps562c47b6.png

clemenza, Sunday, 9 February 2014 17:19 (five years ago) link

i didn't know that either. good thing i got no plans this afternoon!

Porto for Pyros (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Sunday, 9 February 2014 18:20 (five years ago) link

I'm kind of curious to see what Pujols and Hamilton do this year and see if they have some bounce back in them.

I still think both the Angels and Rangers look kind of thin in starting pitching. Joe Blanton is like LA's #4 and he was pretty bad last year. Both clubs got a couple of guys counted on that haven't really had a season putting up some innings.

earlnash, Sunday, 9 February 2014 19:23 (five years ago) link

Angels rotation last year was a dumpster fire. I blame arte for the fixation on declining sluggers..

panettone for the painfully alone (mayor jingleberries), Monday, 10 February 2014 15:07 (five years ago) link

pujols will presumably be at least a bit healthier this year. he was such a mess last season. i bet he'll be better but still off his second half pace from 2012

le goon (J0rdan S.), Monday, 10 February 2014 15:41 (five years ago) link

yeah, if he's truly 100% from his injuries, or even close, i think he's a great bounce-back candidate. after watching him play a ton of games in STL, he was really showing some wear and tear even in 2010 and 2011. noticeably limping, all the time. and he was still playing pretty well in those years! given that he's turning 39 this year, i think that his upside is a repeat of 2011 (4.4 fWAR, .299/.384/.541)

Karl Malone, Tuesday, 11 February 2014 17:12 (five years ago) link

also he dropped his lawsuit against asshole jack clark, because clark issued an apology. the most sincere apologies are issued months after the fact, with a pending lawsuit

Karl Malone, Tuesday, 11 February 2014 17:13 (five years ago) link

"given that he's turning 39 this year"

heh

One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 17:30 (five years ago) link

The ghost of Steve Shasta lives!

eeeLastica (Leee), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 17:34 (five years ago) link

one month passes...

494, getting close. (If it still means anything--it should.)

clemenza, Thursday, 10 April 2014 15:28 (five years ago) link

Obviously too early to tell, but I get the feeling he's going to settle into a Frank Thomas-like second half of his career: the power will come and go, and he'll still have some big home-run years, but BA and OBP markedly down from his prime.

clemenza, Saturday, 19 April 2014 14:25 (five years ago) link

Will be even worse because most of Pujols OBP was driven by IBB. Without those and with the average plummeting he might never get an OPS higher than 900 again.

One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Saturday, 19 April 2014 15:14 (five years ago) link

If he spends a few years hitting behind a decent leadoff hitter and Mike Trout then he'll see loads of pitches with men on base, which will boost his BA and a bunch of other counting stats.

NoTimeBeforeTime, Saturday, 19 April 2014 19:49 (five years ago) link

Hasn't he spent the last two years hitting behind Trout though to little effect?

One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Sunday, 20 April 2014 01:39 (five years ago) link

He has been playing through an injury for the last 3 years. I'm expecting a very good year from in 2014, actually.

Karl Malone, Sunday, 20 April 2014 03:04 (five years ago) link

lol WARP3

linda cardellini (zachlyon), Sunday, 20 April 2014 04:32 (five years ago) link

not sure how accurate it is to say his OBP has been "driven" by IBBs when the guy averaged 130 walks a season

k3vin k., Monday, 21 April 2014 16:22 (five years ago) link

Alex's statement sounded odd to me too, but I checked, and he's right--a high percentage of Pujols' walks have been intentional over his career. Here are the top 26 HR guys (everyone with 500+, plus Pujols) reordered according to their IBB/BB percentages:

Banks -- 0.275 (missing first two seasons)
Bonds -- 0.269
Pujols -- 0.258
Aaron -- 0.213 (missing first season)
McCovey -- 0.193
Griffey -- 0.188
Murray -- 0.167
Sosa -- 0.166
Manny -- 0.163
Ted Williams -- 0.160 (last six seasons only)
Frank Robinson -- 0.154
Mays -- 0.145 (missing first three seasons)
Schmidt -- 0.133
Palmeiro -- 0.127
Reggie Jackson -- 0.119
McGwire -- 0.114
Killebrew -- 0.103 (missing first season)
Frank Thomas -- 0.101
Thome -- 0.099
Mathews -- 0.091
Sheffield -- 0.088
Mantle -- 0.087 (missing first four seasons)
A-Rod -- 0.074
Ruth -- n/a
Foxx -- n/a
Ott -- n/a

(My way of avoiding the drudgery of marking book reports.)

Obviously overall lineup strength plays a part in this (significant, I would guess), and also prevailing managerial strategies through the years, but holy cow, Banks--I would have bet my house on Bonds having the highest percentage. And lineup aside, Mantle's figure is weirdly low. Williams' figure is only for his age 36-41 seasons; bet he was up around 20% in his prime.

Pujols has only drawn 100 walks three times in his career, and never more than 115 in a season. Over a quarter of them have been intentional.

Trivia question I tripped over in a article about his impending 500th: who was slated to play left field for the Cardinals the year he broke in?

clemenza, Monday, 21 April 2014 17:33 (five years ago) link

Cabrera's 0.225 would place him fourth on that list.

clemenza, Monday, 21 April 2014 17:36 (five years ago) link

Trivia question I tripped over in a article about his impending 500th: who was slated to play left field for the Cardinals the year he broke in?

Lou Brock

Andy K, Monday, 21 April 2014 17:37 (five years ago) link

Oh, wait -- you said "broke in," not "born."

Andy K, Monday, 21 April 2014 17:37 (five years ago) link

Brock was slated to play left field for the Jays this year, but no.

clemenza, Monday, 21 April 2014 17:38 (five years ago) link

oh i feel like we've had this conversation before -- on bbref, the BB columnn includes IBBs, right? that's confusing

k3vin k., Monday, 21 April 2014 17:39 (five years ago) link

Yes.

Mario Mendoza -- 0.077 (Mantle/A-Rod territory)...which may or may not say something about how meaningful a stat this is.

clemenza, Monday, 21 April 2014 17:48 (five years ago) link

xposts bobby bonilla, right?

Karl Malone, Monday, 21 April 2014 18:12 (five years ago) link

Well done. Found that a little disorienting.

clemenza, Monday, 21 April 2014 18:24 (five years ago) link

I was going to guess Andy Van Slyke.

Call the Doctorb, the B is for Brownstein (Leee), Monday, 21 April 2014 18:29 (five years ago) link

Banks IBB #s hugely inflated cuz Cubs both stunk and he didn't walk a huge amount otherwise. Unlike Bonds who did.

One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 22 April 2014 00:57 (five years ago) link

hit 499th in 1st in DC

images of war violence and historical smoking (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 22 April 2014 23:27 (five years ago) link

His 500th in the 5th. Congrats!

Van Horn Street, Wednesday, 23 April 2014 00:44 (five years ago) link

PUJOLS BACK

k3vin k., Wednesday, 23 April 2014 00:51 (five years ago) link

weird: looking at pujols' career defensive numbers, bbref has him as a huge plus (not including the positional adjustment), which is how i've always thought of him, while fangraphs has him as a huge minus

k3vin k., Wednesday, 23 April 2014 00:53 (five years ago) link

are you looking at the "DEF" line on fg? that includes position

linda cardellini (zachlyon), Wednesday, 23 April 2014 01:06 (five years ago) link

right, but on bbref he's +25 runs above average in the field (including position) where on FG he's -70

k3vin k., Wednesday, 23 April 2014 01:09 (five years ago) link

i mean i get that they use different methods but that's a huge difference

k3vin k., Wednesday, 23 April 2014 01:09 (five years ago) link

yeah BBRef uses DRS and FG uses UZR, i guess they have some different ideas

fwiw pujols has the highest UZR on record for a 1b. i think it only goes back to 2002 but still.

linda cardellini (zachlyon), Wednesday, 23 April 2014 01:19 (five years ago) link

just read about this, congrats.

"Only 26 of the thousands of men who have played in the major leagues have ever reached that milestone. At 34, he is the third-youngest to do so."

Bee OK, Wednesday, 23 April 2014 01:33 (five years ago) link

not sure about that last part however. :-)

Bee OK, Wednesday, 23 April 2014 01:34 (five years ago) link

i feel like people deal a certain amount of schadenfreude or at least snarkiness about his past two years, or at least LAA's incompetence, but i'm always rooting for him and i still hope he ends up with 700 homers

linda cardellini (zachlyon), Wednesday, 23 April 2014 01:37 (five years ago) link

he's a lot easier to root for now that he's out of the NL Central ;)

frogbs, Wednesday, 23 April 2014 02:00 (five years ago) link

I'd have to figure the HR friendly NL Central Parks probably never hurt Pujols. At least he got to take Minute Maid with him to LA so that every time the Angels go there they can show him hitting that moonshot against Brad Lidge.

earlnash, Wednesday, 23 April 2014 02:21 (five years ago) link

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BmAkwHZCcAEzLUL.jpg

after hitting a walk-off homer to win the 2000 pcl championship

mookieproof, Thursday, 24 April 2014 19:12 (five years ago) link

I met Jered Weaver's father-in-law today.

Immediate Follower (NA), Sunday, 27 April 2014 23:11 (five years ago) link

father of tacos

Porto for Pyros (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Monday, 28 April 2014 00:53 (five years ago) link

did you ask him if he really wanted his daughter to marry jeff

linda cardellini (zachlyon), Monday, 28 April 2014 01:27 (five years ago) link

i ate 10 tacos next to jeff weaver last night

Andy K, Monday, 28 April 2014 01:37 (five years ago) link

four months pass...

2,500th hit, 1,500th run, go-ahead double in the 9th.

clemenza, Sunday, 7 September 2014 05:22 (four years ago) link

four months pass...

35 today

seven years, $189m left on contract

mookieproof, Friday, 16 January 2015 17:47 (four years ago) link

four months pass...

Passed Jimmie Foxx on the HR list today, will pass Mantle soon. In other news, a shadow of his former self.

clemenza, Monday, 8 June 2015 00:26 (four years ago) link

two weeks pass...

23 hr now. He's been a pretty impressive shadow lately, against all odds and prognostication.

nomar, Wednesday, 24 June 2015 00:25 (four years ago) link

Apr 6 to May 16, 2015 34 games 29/130 16 r 6 hr 14 rbis 18k 9bb .223 .277 .392
May 17 to Jun 24, 2015 36 games 43/135 30 r 17 hr 33 rbis 9k 14bb .319 .391 .741

johnny crunch, Saturday, 27 June 2015 00:57 (four years ago) link

I think Thomas without the walks is ending up being a pretty apt analogy offensively although everything I see kinda indicates he's still keeping his strong defensive skills (which obv Thomas never had). As long as you don't look at the contract, he's still got value.

One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Saturday, 27 June 2015 14:18 (four years ago) link

aren't the angels uber rich anyway?

Van Horn Street, Saturday, 27 June 2015 16:53 (four years ago) link

They are, but even so I'm sure they wish they were paying for Pujols 2000-2009 not the current incarnation.

One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Saturday, 27 June 2015 19:31 (four years ago) link

He seems to have turned a bunch of doubles into home runs--his doubles are down from '14 and '12 almost in lockstep with the HR surge. Otherwise, he looks to be the same player he's been since arriving in California. Which is fine. He should be able to bulk up his career numbers at a reasonable level of performance for the next few years--3000/600 again looks very reachable, 2000 RBI probably.

clemenza, Sunday, 28 June 2015 14:53 (four years ago) link

three months pass...

40th hr

johnny crunch, Sunday, 4 October 2015 19:18 (three years ago) link

trout doubles, pujols homers :/ go Rangers!

rip van wanko, Sunday, 4 October 2015 19:20 (three years ago) link

two months pass...

agreed with the angels four years ago today

only six to go

mookieproof, Tuesday, 8 December 2015 17:27 (three years ago) link

He's been worth around 13 WAR over four years with the Angels, so at $7M/win or whatever the going rate is on the open market, he's earned his salary.

He had a .300 OBP last year and probably will be a marginal hitter by the end of his contract, but he's not been terrible. Though he still might have the worst contract in baseball considering the years and $ value still owed.

NoTimeBeforeTime, Wednesday, 9 December 2015 18:19 (three years ago) link

he fell off so badly in the second half of '15 I wonder if he's actually done for real this time tho

nomar, Wednesday, 9 December 2015 19:10 (three years ago) link

seven months pass...

.249/.324/.416, 101 wRC+, 0.1 fWAR

only 5 and a half left to go

I look forward to hearing from you shortly, (Karl Malone), Friday, 15 July 2016 05:17 (three years ago) link

ouch. i didn't realize it had gotten that bad or that there was still 5+ years on that contract

dynamicinterface, Friday, 15 July 2016 17:16 (three years ago) link

Depending upon how much stock you put in the 40 HR last year, he's in his eighth year of almost uniformly straight-line decline. WARs, starting in 2009 (his career high): 9.7, 7.5, 5.3, 4.8, 2.3 (injury year; pro-rated for 155 games), 3.9, 3.1, 0.4 (also pro-rated for 155 games).

clemenza, Friday, 15 July 2016 18:39 (three years ago) link

one month passes...

His worst nightmare turns out to be...R.A. Dickey: including an 0-3 tonight, 13 AB, no hits, no walks, one sacrifice fly. (Kluber, too.)

clemenza, Wednesday, 24 August 2016 03:02 (three years ago) link

so R.A. has that going for him.

Mad Piratical (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Wednesday, 24 August 2016 15:56 (three years ago) link

not too difficult to get albert out these days

have you ever even read The Drudge Report? Have you gone on Stormfron (k3vin k.), Wednesday, 24 August 2016 16:36 (three years ago) link

it was a good run

http://i.imgur.com/Zury8rd.png

I look forward to hearing from you shortly, (Karl Malone), Wednesday, 24 August 2016 17:36 (three years ago) link

his career arc at this point kinda reminds me of griffey jr's

nomar, Wednesday, 24 August 2016 17:40 (three years ago) link

pujols probably more consistently great at his peak, but yeah. doesn't have griffey's injury excuses, either

have you ever even read The Drudge Report? Have you gone on Stormfron (k3vin k.), Wednesday, 24 August 2016 19:38 (three years ago) link

13 seasons with at least 25 homers and 100 RBI

it's a shame (you know, apart from the money) that he's signed to such an absurd contract that he's become a joke

because good lord he hit some baseballs

mookieproof, Saturday, 27 August 2016 01:38 (two years ago) link

eh, he earned that contract, Angels were foolish if they thought they were getting more than 3 decent years out of him

frogbs, Saturday, 27 August 2016 02:51 (two years ago) link

This could be Cabrera's 12th such season if he picks up the pace a bit in RBI. Never thought any contemporary of Pujols' would surpass his basic slash stats, but Cabrera might.

Pujols: .309/.393/.573
Cabrera: .321/.398/.561

(And just so nobody complains)

Trout: .306/.402/.558

Cabrera still has to tack on three extra years of decline, though, so maybe not. And of course, that's two great fielders and one guy with no defensive value.

clemenza, Saturday, 27 August 2016 02:55 (two years ago) link

Pujols hasn't remained otherworldly, but he isn't aging too bad for such a big built guy. I can't see why any of these clubs sign anyone for a 10 year guaranteed contract, but if you are going to do such a deal a guy like Pujols or say Votto are probably the better type of players to invest that much cash and time. Hamilton's long deal was the one that was really stupid, as the guy was an injury risk beyond the off the field issues.

The big thing to me is that the Angels minor league system completely fell apart and they had a couple of tough injuries with their young pitchers. Their pitching has been their weakness the past few years even last year when they won a bunch of games.

earlnash, Saturday, 27 August 2016 04:13 (two years ago) link

This could be Cabrera's 12th such season if he picks up the pace a bit in RBI. Never thought any contemporary of Pujols' would surpass his basic slash stats, but Cabrera might.

Pujols: .309/.393/.573
Cabrera: .321/.398/.561

(And just so nobody complains)

Trout: .306/.402/.558

Cabrera still has to tack on three extra years of decline, though, so maybe not. And of course, that's two great fielders and one guy with no defensive value.

― clemenza, Friday, August 26, 2016 10:55 PM (yesterday)

wow, i just checked and the two have just about identical career wRC+. i figured even with pujols's disastrous last few years he would still have him beat

that said despite cabrera being arguably one of the best...5-7 RH hitters ever, pujols has already attained inner-circle status and cabrera will have to have a bonds-like finish to his career to sniff that

miggy has yet (i think) to single-handedly destroy a pitcher's career the way pujols did with brad lidge

or bartolo did with james shields

mookieproof, Saturday, 27 August 2016 20:52 (two years ago) link

eight months pass...

Albert this season kinda proving how empty the RBI can be, statistically speaking:

.238/.276/.363
5 HR
5 2B
12 runs
30 RBI (2nd in AL)
-0.3 WAR

it takes a lot to go from the best player in MLB to the worst but he's trending well...

nomar, Wednesday, 17 May 2017 22:31 (two years ago) link

only 4 more years left on his contract. after this year.

Karl Malone, Wednesday, 17 May 2017 22:32 (two years ago) link

was he an actual "questionable birthday" guy or was that just good ol'-fashioned racism?

why ruin a good tradition? (Will M.), Wednesday, 17 May 2017 22:33 (two years ago) link

his ISO is .125, woof

looks like he's going to end up generating around +10 WAR over his 10 year contract

Karl Malone, Wednesday, 17 May 2017 22:36 (two years ago) link

ah, 2011:

Well, if you squint hard enough, you might catch a glimpse of early decline in his numbers. His OPS+ has decreased every year since 2008. But I wouldn't want to make too much of that, because he's still playing at a superstar level, and really, who needs statistics when you've got a lot of rumors and hearsay evidence?

Karl Malone, Wednesday, 17 May 2017 22:41 (two years ago) link

proving how empty the RBI can be, statistically speaking

Phrased that way, absolutely agree: "can be," not "is." If you look at the rest of the combined-leagues RBI leaderboard, it's one guy, Travis Shaw, having a good year, and nine other guys having very good to great years, including Zimmerman, Harper, and Goldschmidt (a couple in Colorado, mind you). And there's no mystery to Pujols' bogus total.

clemenza, Wednesday, 17 May 2017 22:44 (two years ago) link

two weeks pass...

Grand slam:

http://m.mlb.com/video/v1462152183

More productive than Thome when he hit his 600th, less productive than Sosa.

clemenza, Sunday, 4 June 2017 04:36 (two years ago) link

thome never sucked as bad as pjuols does now!

k3vin k., Sunday, 4 June 2017 04:56 (two years ago) link

damn he's on pace to score 49 runs

nomar, Sunday, 4 June 2017 05:43 (two years ago) link

$500K per run

Karl Malone, Sunday, 4 June 2017 05:46 (two years ago) link

Thome's last two seasons were split between four teams; I didn't look carefully enough--you're right, he was mostly pretty good except for his Orioles line.

clemenza, Sunday, 4 June 2017 12:52 (two years ago) link

Ben Carsley, BP:

"Thanks to his milestone 600th homer on Saturday, Albert Pujols has now spent more time trotting around the bases than Mike Trout has spent on this earth."

Supercreditor (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 6 June 2017 18:48 (two years ago) link

two months pass...

.230/.275/.382, 74 wRC+, 5.9 BB%, -1.2 fWAR

only a little over 4 seasons to go on his contract

Karl Malone, Monday, 7 August 2017 18:00 (two years ago) link

his career fWAR is back down to exactly 90.0, so he's probably going to end down in the 80s unless he improves

Karl Malone, Monday, 7 August 2017 18:01 (two years ago) link

gonna get real ugly

ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Monday, 7 August 2017 18:19 (two years ago) link

yr alltime GIDP leader

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/albert-pujols-grounded-into-history/

ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 16 August 2017 19:41 (two years ago) link

hey, he's in good company!

1 pujols
2 ripken
3 pudge
4 aaron
5 yaz

Karl Malone, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 22:34 (two years ago) link

a lot fewer PA than most of them; he can get to 600 DP perhaps

ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 17 August 2017 00:51 (two years ago) link

353 GIDP means 706 outs, so 26 games worth of outs by himself.

Van Horn Street, Thursday, 17 August 2017 01:39 (two years ago) link

609th HR ties Sosa

ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 19 August 2017 00:29 (two years ago) link

TJ: Stanton chasing 60 is nice, but can we appreciate Albert getting close to the 100 RBI, < .400 SLG club?

Jeff Sullivan: He’s only seven RBI away!

Jeff Sullivan: Currently slugging .394

ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Friday, 8 September 2017 21:38 (one year ago) link

Jeff Sullivan:

Okay, 1990 Joe Carter wins out. His 115 RBI that year are the most ever by a player who slugged under .400.
There are just 11 seasons on record in which a player has reached triple digits.
Joe Carter has two of them!

ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Friday, 8 September 2017 21:56 (one year ago) link

i wonder how much better the angels would be with anyone else providing protection for trout

Karl Malone, Friday, 8 September 2017 21:57 (one year ago) link

i don't really know the front office dynamics but if scioscia keeps his job after batting pujols in the middle of the order all season i'd be surprised

k3vin k., Friday, 8 September 2017 22:34 (one year ago) link

if scioscia goes it'll be arte moreno's decision, and i doubt that he's concerned with where pujols bats in the order. not winning a playoff game since 2009, however . . .

mookieproof, Friday, 8 September 2017 23:34 (one year ago) link

Pujols has scored 48 runs all season.

looking at Carter, his seasons appear to be a bit better; still terrible, but they came in *relative* deadball periods.

nomar, Friday, 8 September 2017 23:59 (one year ago) link

(xpost) Not disagreeing with you, KM, but I'll just say in passing that of the 10,000 things Bill James has said over the years, one that he's never budged an inch on (he often modifies or even completely upends his opinions) is that the idea of one batter providing protection for another is just a myth.

clemenza, Saturday, 9 September 2017 01:57 (one year ago) link

his bbref war is back below 100 thanks to this season

what a depressing career arc

ciderpress, Saturday, 9 September 2017 16:55 (one year ago) link

sucks for the angels, too, if they end up missing the playoffs by a game or two. if they had a replacement-level player, they might have made it. but you never know, they might turn it around.

Karl Malone, Saturday, 9 September 2017 17:36 (one year ago) link

xpost clemenza

you (and bill james) are probably right! i guess the "protection" idea is kind of an old school piece of wisdom that i've always just assumed was correct because it seems intuitive.

Karl Malone, Saturday, 9 September 2017 19:44 (one year ago) link

If Pujols is the worst player in baseball this year, I'm guessing that Cabrera can't be too far behind.

clemenza, Saturday, 9 September 2017 19:50 (one year ago) link

cabrera's fall-off this year was so dramatic that i have to think he's got enough left to be a well-above average hitter

k3vin k., Saturday, 9 September 2017 21:03 (one year ago) link

three weeks pass...

my BBR search engine isn't cooperating but it appears as though Pujols scored the second-fewest runs in MLB history for a player who had 100+ RBIs. He scored 53 runs.

i know one has little to do with the other but it says something about his inability to get on base or run despite having enough ABs to back his way into 100 ribbies. .

nomar, Thursday, 5 October 2017 16:45 (one year ago) link

i think fangraphs has him as the worst everyday player in MLB (via EWPod)

ein Sexmonster (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Thursday, 5 October 2017 16:46 (one year ago) link

two months pass...

there haven't been any rumors or news or anything, but just thinking: is there a chance pujols might retire early? he seems like one of those guys who would feel kind of bad about absolutely crawling to the finish line while being one of the highest paid players on the team. is there precedent for that, for leaving a contract early? i feel like there is, but i can't remember the specific players.

Karl Malone, Friday, 8 December 2017 02:44 (one year ago) link

steamer is projecting him to be a 99 wRC+ DH next year

Karl Malone, Friday, 8 December 2017 02:45 (one year ago) link

which would be a big improvement

Karl Malone, Friday, 8 December 2017 02:45 (one year ago) link

there was an EW podcast recently where they concluded he will make a graceful exit in mid-2019.

ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Friday, 8 December 2017 02:56 (one year ago) link

even if he continues to be awful, though, i can see him sticking around in an attempt to reach 700 HRs or some other round number counting stat.

Karl Malone, Friday, 8 December 2017 02:58 (one year ago) link

hey, he had an 100 RBI year

k3vin k., Friday, 8 December 2017 03:11 (one year ago) link

one month passes...

happy 38th

only four years and $114m to go

mookieproof, Tuesday, 16 January 2018 16:55 (one year ago) link

three months pass...

if he finishes this season with the same number of ABs and BA as last season, his career BA will go from .304 to .301

that HOF plaque won't look as good with a .290/.361/.520 slash.

omar little, Thursday, 3 May 2018 17:49 (one year ago) link

double in the 2nd puts him at 2999

the ignatius rock of ignorance (Dr Morbius), Friday, 4 May 2018 03:01 (one year ago) link

On the chart in Kevin's link, Beltre probably would've ranked second if not for the injury last year.

clemenza, Friday, 4 May 2018 03:20 (one year ago) link

Just realised Joey Votto is only 3 years younger than Pujols.

Van Horn Street, Saturday, 5 May 2018 02:08 (one year ago) link

well, i guess he finally did it.

obviously DLC (Karl Malone), Saturday, 5 May 2018 06:01 (one year ago) link

Just realised Joey Votto is only 3 years younger than Pujols.

― Van Horn Street, Friday, May 4, 2018 10:08 PM (yesterday)

5 years*

k3vin k., Saturday, 5 May 2018 18:25 (one year ago) link

Seems apropos that 3,000 was a broken-bat single.

clemenza, Sunday, 6 May 2018 17:57 (one year ago) link

on the road, in SEA, who then immediately started booing ohtani

the whole thing was kind of sad

obviously DLC (Karl Malone), Sunday, 6 May 2018 17:59 (one year ago) link

two weeks pass...

Breaking fantasy news: Albert Pujols finally drives in a run.

tbh it seems like a very good time for him to hang it up, if the Angels make the postseason he’ll be an albatross. His WAR continues to creep down.

omar little, Thursday, 24 May 2018 00:30 (one year ago) link

he could suck ass for the rest of the season...or pick up the rest of his $24 million for the year. he'll get to make the same decision every year through 2021

obviously DLC (Karl Malone), Thursday, 24 May 2018 01:40 (one year ago) link

he has some stiff competition for worst player this year, though. He's at -0.4 fWAR, but chris davis is somehow already at -1.4 fWAR! ian desmond and dexter fowler have both been godawful, too, and seem likely to continue getting lots of playing time

obviously DLC (Karl Malone), Thursday, 24 May 2018 01:49 (one year ago) link

wonder if mike scioscia will be able to sit pujols more often, in general, now that he's reached 3000 (unless we're all supposed to care about reaching 700 or 714 home runs, too)

obviously DLC (Karl Malone), Thursday, 24 May 2018 01:51 (one year ago) link

how about not batting him 4th

k3vin k., Thursday, 24 May 2018 02:07 (one year ago) link

two months pass...

Prince Albert Pujols, He Has Obtained positive WAR so far this season!!

0.2 fWAR, 1.0 bWAR.

.257/.293/.437, 17 HRs, 99 wRC+

Karl Malone, Thursday, 2 August 2018 06:02 (one year ago) link

he is hovering just above replacement level, at least

he has the slowest sprint speed of any player this year at 22.3 ft/s, which is faster than he was in 2017 when he was also the slowest player, at 21.8 ft/s. he tied for last with victor martinez in 2016.

Karl Malone, Thursday, 2 August 2018 06:07 (one year ago) link

Was Pujols' 2017 the worst season ever for a player with 100 RBI's?

Dante Bichette had some bad WAR seasons with Coors-inflated numbers, but according to bWAR his defense was the worst part of his game.

NoTimeBeforeTime, Thursday, 2 August 2018 10:59 (one year ago) link

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24270231/mlb-how-shift-ruined-albert-pujols

More hard hit outs than anyone in baseball the past four years, blames the shift, thinks RBIs aren't overrated.

NoTimeBeforeTime, Tuesday, 7 August 2018 20:12 (one year ago) link

Pujols is one of only eight players who have been active over the past 18 seasons

pujols, beltre, utley, bartolo, ...?

k3vin k., Wednesday, 8 August 2018 02:17 (one year ago) link

sabathia

Karl Malone, Wednesday, 8 August 2018 02:27 (one year ago) link

fernando rodney? he pitched a few games in 2002

Karl Malone, Wednesday, 8 August 2018 02:29 (one year ago) link

ichiro

Karl Malone, Wednesday, 8 August 2018 02:31 (one year ago) link

joaquin benoit

Karl Malone, Wednesday, 8 August 2018 02:34 (one year ago) link

that's 8!

k3vin k., Wednesday, 8 August 2018 02:35 (one year ago) link

From 2015 to 2018, Pujols has accumulated a whopping 403 hard-hit outs, putting balls in play that travel at least 95 mph. Nobody has more. His average exit velocity is 90.3 mph, ranked fourth among those with at least 1,700 batted balls during that stretch, according to Statcast. His batting average on balls in play is .245, tied for the lowest in the majors among qualified hitters during that time.

Pujols shrugs.

"What can you do, bro?"

wwjvd

Karl Malone, Wednesday, 8 August 2018 02:40 (one year ago) link

yeah that's a pretty pathetic attitude from someone who is too rich to care lol

k3vin k., Wednesday, 8 August 2018 02:40 (one year ago) link

i like how they paired the article with a sam miller piece explaining how shifts are bullshit

mookieproof, Wednesday, 8 August 2018 02:42 (one year ago) link

espn, something for everyone

Karl Malone, Wednesday, 8 August 2018 02:42 (one year ago) link

Thinking about that makes Pujols think about all the line drives he has lost up the middle -- guaranteed hits in the baseball game he once knew. He is asked what his batting average would look like if second basemen played their position traditionally and didn't shade toward center field.

"Between .290 and .300, for sure," Pujols says, who instead sports a .254/.290/.428 slash line "Look at the balls that I'm hitting up the middle, especially this year. Out of those 30 or 40 or 50 balls, give me 25 hits. Add those 25 hits to my .250 batting average, I'd be hitting like .290."

(narrator voice): "he'd be hitting like. 316."

...

(narrator voice): "if you assume he's actually right about losing 25 hits up the middle this year against the shift"

Karl Malone, Wednesday, 8 August 2018 02:47 (one year ago) link

three weeks pass...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwZJR3x9xwI

Karl Malone, Wednesday, 29 August 2018 00:12 (eleven months ago) link

right after i posted that, he got injured and then underwent season-ending surgery on his left knee. sorry albert.

his line for 2018:

117 G, .245/.289/.411, wRC+ 90, 19 HR, 5.6 BB%, 13.1 K%, -0.2 fWAR, 0.1 bWAR (positive!!)

Karl Malone, Friday, 31 August 2018 01:35 (eleven months ago) link

only 3 years left on his contract, after this season

Karl Malone, Friday, 31 August 2018 01:36 (eleven months ago) link

he actually injured his left knee in the hardware store

Karl Malone, Friday, 31 August 2018 01:36 (eleven months ago) link

four months pass...

happy 39th

mookieproof, Wednesday, 16 January 2019 22:16 (seven months ago) link

sigh... thread:

He’s listed at 38, but I’m pretty sure Albert Pujols is 40. Today @baseballpro, I lay out new evidence (from Pujols’s own mouth), and then dig into why this happens, and why it matters, and what parts of it *don’t* matter much (Free): https://t.co/HGub38otZd

— Matthew Trueblood (@MATrueblood) April 24, 2018

Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Wednesday, 16 January 2019 22:21 (seven months ago) link

or rather link:

https://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/article/39462/rubbing-mud-aging-angel/

Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Wednesday, 16 January 2019 22:21 (seven months ago) link

only 3 years and $72 million left on his contract

Karl Malone, Wednesday, 16 January 2019 22:22 (seven months ago) link

slowest sprint speed in the majors last year (22.2 ft/s, which, when you put it that way, always seem really fast to me)
slowest sprint speed in 2017 (21.8 ft/s)
slowest sprint speed in 2016 (22.6 ft/s)
8th slowest sprint speed in 2015 (23.5 ft/s)

Karl Malone, Thursday, 17 January 2019 03:42 (seven months ago) link

two weeks pass...

this will be close when it's all said and done

Pujols career (18 seasons): .302/.382.554
Cabrera career (16 seasons): .316/.395/.551

(after 16 seasons Pujols was at .309./.392/.573)

omar little, Friday, 1 February 2019 20:26 (six months ago) link

wow that's sad

k3vin k., Friday, 1 February 2019 20:41 (six months ago) link

(cabrera obviously a HOFer, but pujols' fall from the inner circle back to the mere mortals has been a long, slow, sad journey)

k3vin k., Friday, 1 February 2019 20:42 (six months ago) link

pujols still a little more valuable overall, on average, due to his blazing speed and impressive defensive skills compared to miggy, but yeah :(

Karl Malone, Friday, 1 February 2019 20:50 (six months ago) link

Pujols w/the Angels: .260/.315/.453

omar little, Friday, 1 February 2019 20:54 (six months ago) link

to compare to similar "decline phases" from a couple recent HOF guys who fell off a lot from their peak:

Frank Thomas after his MVP runner-up campaign in 2000: .262/.376/.507

Griffey Jr with the Reds/ChiSox/Seattle pt 2: .262/.355/.493

omar little, Friday, 1 February 2019 20:58 (six months ago) link

that's why Peak Value and Career Value are separate considerations

a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Friday, 1 February 2019 21:07 (six months ago) link

prince albert pujols, he broketh free agency

mookieproof, Friday, 1 February 2019 21:10 (six months ago) link

two months pass...

First I've ever heard that Ruth's and Cap Anson's RBI totals are not considered official. I can maybe see that for Anson, but I don't get it for Ruth.

clemenza, Monday, 29 April 2019 04:33 (three months ago) link

Box scores from the teens and '20s are not all absolutely verified/complete.

a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Monday, 29 April 2019 11:53 (three months ago) link

It's strange though that the pre-1920 RBIs aren't included in the official totals at all. Mistakes aren't too uncommon, and the "official" totals can easily be adjusted.

NoTimeBeforeTime, Monday, 29 April 2019 12:45 (three months ago) link

i was trying to think of a solid comparison for Pujols in terms of an all-time great player falling off a cliff. i checked out Frank Thomas, specifically the era after his 2000 MVP runner-up season. During his age 33-39 seasons he accumulated 14.8 bWAR. Albert during that same run (this is his age 39 season, doubt he'll add much to the total and may subtract some, he's at 0.0 bWAR now) has accumulated 8.5 bWAR.

Griffey Jr. put up a 7.1 bWAR during those same seasons.

Beltre, on the other hand, put up 37.6 bWAR. And it's probably not fair to include Barry Bonds but...63.1 bWAR from his age 33-39 seasons.

omar little, Wednesday, 1 May 2019 16:32 (three months ago) link

when i think of falling off a cliff, i think of andruw

mookieproof, Wednesday, 1 May 2019 16:38 (three months ago) link

🙌 Mr. 2,000 RBIs 🙌 @PujolsFive tacked on the two-thousandth RBI of his Hall of Fame career with a solo shot in #Detroit!

He joins Hank Aaron & Alex Rodriguez as the only #MLBPlayers to ever reach the milestone. Congrats to The Machine! 🔥 pic.twitter.com/jgjvwD9Xvz

— MLBPA (@MLB_PLAYERS) May 9, 2019

mookieproof, Thursday, 9 May 2019 19:20 (three months ago) link

1,329 of those RBIs with the Cardinals, 2001-2011

these are not all of the possible side effects (Karl Malone), Thursday, 9 May 2019 19:32 (three months ago) link

he is the Aged Compiler :/

a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 9 May 2019 19:51 (three months ago) link

his fWAR w/LA is a lot lower than his bWAR (6.6 vs 13.3)

even by bWAR's generous standards he's put together a WAR of 3.1 since the beginning of 2015, which is i think equal to what Cody Bellinger did in April.

omar little, Thursday, 9 May 2019 20:14 (three months ago) link

The stories of fans doing right by players and being rewarded with autographs and such are nice. But Pujols has long been a humble fellow who gets to the heart of the matter. https://t.co/256RvmhZCC

— Richard M. Nixon (@dick_nixon) May 9, 2019

a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Friday, 10 May 2019 15:43 (three months ago) link

saw people being really weird about that on twitter -- like 'how selfish!' or 'what an idiot; he didn't get it authenticated so now it's worthless'

mookieproof, Friday, 10 May 2019 16:32 (three months ago) link

one month passes...

Ignore the headlines you'll read about this being Albert Pujols' first time back in St. Louis since 2011. Truth is, he never left at all.

How Pujols' impact on those with Down Syndrome has continued to grow in STL even as he took a new uniform. https://t.co/5zNJNBtTBL

— Jenifer Langosch (@LangoschMLB) June 20, 2019

a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Friday, 21 June 2019 21:00 (two months ago) link

pujols gets a curtain call in STL after homering to deep left

i will never make a typo ever again (Karl Malone), Saturday, 22 June 2019 20:37 (two months ago) link

Ricky Horton speaks for us all when he said “of the 20 great moments he had - we’re gonna have to get another piece of paper”

i will never make a typo ever again (Karl Malone), Saturday, 22 June 2019 20:40 (two months ago) link

scandal: albert pujols' wife diedre says cardinals fans truly are "best in baseball", it's like they never left, and that the HR ranked as the greatest moment in his career.

i will never make a typo ever again (Karl Malone), Saturday, 22 June 2019 20:47 (two months ago) link

he passed pete rose for 8th place all time in total bases with that HR

i will never make a typo ever again (Karl Malone), Saturday, 22 June 2019 21:18 (two months ago) link

just a little guy named steve sax up next on that list

jk, next up is babe ruth

i will never make a typo ever again (Karl Malone), Saturday, 22 June 2019 21:18 (two months ago) link


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