"Baby It's Cold Outside" -- Holiday Song? Rapey?

you know what would really settle this, is a gawker or buzzfeed 'article' about how creepy this song is

this song is a beating

I remember that time I took a Women's Studies 101 class and had no concept of the social mores of mid-century of America.

To His Coy Mistress: Rapey?

it is a standard that is sung by many people and as such can be played both ways

Whether it's a holiday song or not is incidental, but it is wicked rapey.

flirty, morelike.

What if I acknowledge that is probably is a bit rapey, but won't acknowledge "rapey" as being a word?

thought this was easily the highlight of snl the other night - http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/baby-its-cold-outside/n44614/

I love this song, hate the word "rapey."

^ otm

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/7c/aa/e0/7caae0115523c6b3cfc4b9848c24e1f3.jpg

Snowman wants to get cozy
(building around the corner has this on their stoop.)

I love this song, hate the word "rapey."

― Beatrix Kiddo (Raymond Cummings), Tuesday, 24 December 2013 01:22 (14 hours ago) Permalink

^ otm

― Mmm yes hello (crüt), Tuesday, 24 December 2013 01:34 (14 hours ago) Permalink

yes, please let this word die with 2013

I did vote for it as best Xmas song ever. Obviously morally speaking it is one rung below hitler.

Kinda curious as to what prompts the hatred of the word "rapey" but to ask why would probably bring down clusterfuck, right?

My 1st exposure to this song was the tom Jones cerys Matthews version and my instinctive reaction was UGH no means no tom Jones u fucking creep, but that's tom Jones

xp
(1) trivializing to actual rape
(2) implies that there's this middle-ground "rape-ish" category that's not rape but rape-like
(3) just generally smacks of awful blogspeak

I love that this was just a throwaway number for performing to houseguests for about five years, before Loesser thought to record it properly

OK, gotcha. Thanks for the reply, Hurting.

i roofied your driiiiink

Dean Martin version works

really guys, sometimes "Don't go" is not a fucking felony

ty

This song did inspire one of the great album titles - Baby, It's Cold Inside by The Fun Years

Xp well that's the prob with the word "rapey", like I wouldn't draw any equivalence w rape necessarily but persistently not taking no for an answer comes off as fuckin douchey (if its tom jones)

Michael Buble is the litmus test

Bauble is always douchey no

Syria, kinda genocidey

yeah it's true, dude could make jingle bells sound gross

Xp well that's the prob with the word "rapey", like I wouldn't draw any equivalence w rape necessarily but persistently not taking no for an answer comes off as fuckin douchey (if its tom jones)

― sad banta (wins), Tuesday, December 24, 2013 11:46 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Honestly I think whether the person "not taking no for an answer" is being "douchey" or "rapey" or "persistent" is a call for the person saying no to make, not you.

i.e. in each respective situation

It's one of those rare duets, maybe less rare in musicals than pop music, where the two singers are actually arguing or at least opposing each other.

Hurting these are fictional ppl I get to make the call

And maybe it comes down to how its played, I will lol forever at that movie where dude spends the entire running time wheedling to get doris day to put out, because doris day is awesome

'lol baby it's cold outside is rapey' is kinda the xmas carol version of 'lol my fave xmas movie is die hard'

1) It's not a "Holiday Song" by any stretch of the imagination. It's a winter song, and the only holiday in it is the slow cooption of anything and everything wintery by Winter Consumerfest.

2) "Rapey". Although I can understand the problems with this specific word, I do think that there is the need for a non-dismissive, non-cutesy, non-trivialising word for saying "things which are not (yet) rape in a legal or moral sense, but are still: similar to rape; contributing to rape culture; or disregarding consent and agency in a way which indicates rape is a distinct possibility."

With this song, written as words on a page, it is almost impossible to tell whether it is "rapey" or not. So much depends on the context (is this an artefact of 1950s morality, or a modern re-reading of something which was then innocent but is now not innocent, or an entirely modern setting which is completely suspect) and the delivery. I have certainly heard versions where it's almost entirely clear to the listener that both parties are engaging in mutually consensual flirtation. I've heard versions where I pretty much want to call the cops to report a rape in progress. Language has changed since the song was written ("Roofies in the drink" is an almost entirely modern construction) and social mores have changed to the point where I'm not even sure *I* can get into the mindset of the woman ("mouse"?) in the song.

However, the whole process of examining the song, the ambivalent lyrics, pouring over every ambiguous line with a microscope to determine if she really is "totally up for it and just being coy because women in the 1950s are not allowed to express sexual desire" or "being drugged or pressured into sex" due clues in their tone and body language - that *process* makes me feel very uncomfortable, and to me, feels "rapey" in the "sustaining or contributing to rape culture" sense. I am prepared to accept that there may be a totally innocent, flirty 1950s reading of the song, where "what's in this drink?" just means "is this vermouth or gin?" But sorting through the reactions of a woman who says "I said no" one moment and "what is this magic spell..." the next and trying to work out consent from those cues, as opposed to just asking "are you into it?" - that is exactly describing rape culture. So I'm voting "rapey".

yep this is my least favorite christmas controversy for like 6 years running now

intersting

This is the first Christmas anyone has even asked me the question.

I think the fact that the girl at the end cheerfully says "baby it's cold outside," (i.e. "ok, I'll stay,") makes it pretty obvious that the song is not "rapey," not to mention that most of her protests are like "what will the neighbors think" kind of stuff. Even having to read it this closely to make the point makes me die inside a little.

die hard is a fine christmas movie.

Taking an ILX question at face value, and answering it seriously, when everyone else is ~so over~ ever having to think about the issue ever again, what on earth was I thinking.

Just kidding! I missed you guys.

Actually, no, I think reading Godel Escher Bach is starting to look a hell of a lot more appealing right now, yes, I really am bored enough to try and catch up the chapter I missed yesterday.

All winter songs become holiday songs by association xxxxpost

hey i cant help it that i am apparently at the cutting edge of "people finding things to complain about" culture

generally agree with bb above. i don't know this song, don't have a problem with "rapey" unless men are using it (something "the lady doth protest too much" about it) and feel like it's good shorthand for gendered power dynamics because it actually has some leverage in territory that usually doesn't and gets attention, get annoyed when other men get annoyed at "rapey" and huff about "the legal definition of rape" rmde

you know what? dudes getting reactionary and butthurt about this stuff is sooo fucking lame. you all should man up and find something constructive to do with your time.

Oh noes, I am a Cis-Het dude being made to think about rape for the whole sixth time in my life, DEAR GOD MAKE IT STOP. Why don't they ever shut up.

haha exactly

or "this harmless song does not deserve to be destroyed by u politically correct feminists, i'm liberal but we can't go too far this is madness" guess what there's a lot more than your harmless joyful song that can and ought to be talked about i hope you're up for it, if not then just ignore cuz shutting it down with mansputtering is pathetic at best

"man up"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qc_F0zP9usU

i think it's more 'trivializing rape to get standup didja ever notice lulz' is not only disgusting but tiresome but have fun daniel tosh, it's xmas

imo a little humor however tired is a legitimate way to try and make inroads with a topic like "this song is kinda disturbing and indicative of this bad thing" especially when your view is the unpopular disenfranchised one with the bigger burden of proof.

daniel tosh, feminist

matt p you must be a big fan of that mastodon t-shirt

rohypnol didn't really come into use until the 1970s. I don't know if there was some other easily available equivalent date rape drug at the time this song was written, fwiw. I think in context the most obvious reading of "what's in this drink" is a playful one. I really, really think the other reading is a stretch. I am going over and over it to see if there is something I'm missing here.

'lol baby it's cold outside is rapey' is kinda the xmas carol version of 'lol my fave xmas movie is die hard'

― balls, Tuesday, December 24, 2013 5:05 PM (1 hour ago)

ugh so otm

ppl who think this song is creepy will probably drop dead if they ever hear rod stewart's 'tonight's the night.'

rohypnol didn't really come into use until the 1970s. I don't know if there was some other easily available equivalent date rape drug at the time this song was written, fwiw.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mickey_Finn_%28drugs%29

Sharing mostly bcz I coincidentally looked this up last night and thought the origin was surprising: "The Mickey Finn is most likely named for the manager and bartender of a Chicago establishment, the Lone Star Saloon and Palm Garden Restaurant, which operated from 1896 to 1903 in the city's South Loop neighborhood on South State Street.[2][3] In December 1903, several Chicago newspapers document that a Michael "Mickey" Finn managed the Lone Star Saloon and was accused of using knockout drops to incapacitate and rob some of his customers."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_rape_drug#Alcohol

it is funny that the original was edgy just a bit of fun humor (that amps up as the song progresses), precisely the kind of thing you would routinely drag out at the end of parties (w/ the added benefit of it being a way to tell yr guests 'alright, time to leave') which is apparently what it was for years for loesser and his wife. first 'public' performance was mae west and rock hudson, i'm wondering how many ppl fully got the joke there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_rape_drug#Alcohol

― sad banta (wins), Tuesday, December 24, 2013 1:24 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

OIC, the answer to "what's in this drink" is secretly "alcohol" shh

rohypnol didn't really come into use until the 1970s. I don't know if there was some other easily available equivalent date rape drug at the time this song was written, fwiw.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mickey_Finn_%28drugs%29

Sharing mostly bcz I coincidentally looked this up last night and thought the origin was surprising: "The Mickey Finn is most likely named for the manager and bartender of a Chicago establishment, the Lone Star Saloon and Palm Garden Restaurant, which operated from 1896 to 1903 in the city's South Loop neighborhood on South State Street.[2][3] In December 1903, several Chicago newspapers document that a Michael "Mickey" Finn managed the Lone Star Saloon and was accused of using knockout drops to incapacitate and rob some of his customers."

― even the beatles had a coinstar machine in their living room (Crabbits), Tuesday, December 24, 2013 1:23 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I also googled "slip a mickey" fwiw. I don't think it was commonly used the way roofies are, but I could be wrong?

xp plying a woman with mystery cocktail of unknown strength in order to manipulate her into sleeping with you doesn't strike you as a bit

Also even if so, I think the line pretty clearly comes off in context as her being sly, not "I literally think you may have drugged me"

this is my favorite christmas song. is the ella/louis version for sure the best version ever or are there others that are possibly better?

also, this is not one of those threads where matt p is killing it, unfortunately

like "what's in this drink" is a pretty normal thing to want to know mickey or not!

(how have you never heard this song? i'm a jew and i've heard this song a million times in my life?)

totally ignorant of this song, thanks for the background info balls. it sounds like it's kind of a camp thing? xp

My best friend in hs would always say of creepy guys, "he seems like the kind of guy that would slip you a mickey." Was actually thinking about this last night – when did my mind transition from thinking of date rape drugs as "slipping you a mickey" to "getting roofied"? I decided it was definitely this century.

xp to Hurting

uhh i guess i should listen to it. my bad

i just don't get how it's possible to get ignorant of this song. have u ever heard that obscure jingle bells tune? another pretty popular one.

It's kind of weird that Loesser and his wife sang this at the end of their Christmas party to signify that the guests should start getting ready to leave.

haha I still basically mainly know this from the tom jones versh

idk, maybe i have, but i can't stop hearing "winter song" by don armando's second avenue rumba band in its place.

xp plying a woman with mystery cocktail of unknown strength in order to manipulate her into sleeping with you doesn't strike you as a bit

― sad banta (wins), Tuesday, December 24, 2013 1:27 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I feel like all this use of words like "manipulate" assumes that a woman in this situation couldn't possibly WANT a man to be a little bit persistent, and given the nature of her "refusals" in that song I think that seems pretty clear. I mean I get that guys often see "she wants me to be persistent" when it isn't there, and I'm all for playing things on the safe side when it comes to that, but you guys do realize that there is such a thing, a common one even, as a woman wanting to play the game of having a guy convince her, right? I understand that that kind of thinking sometimes does indeed lead to date rape, but at the same time I feel like we're getting to the point of denying that that kind of dynamic could and often does exist in a consensual situation.

would love to hear an "antioch rules" version of this.

Jeez, it's not a rape song, it's a foreplay song.

http://persephonemagazine.com/2010/12/listening-while-feminist-in-defense-of-baby-its-cold-outside/

Thanks, kate

yes, thank you

seems like the same superficial lyric-reading seen with the "blurred lines" controversy is characteristic of the opposition to this song. to me at least it seems like "say, what's in that drink?" (probably the most eyebrow-raising line here) isn't an accusation of drugging but rather a metaphor for the guy's charm. which it must be said, isn't all that strong, because it doesn't seem like in the end she explicitly stays. but if trying to get a girl to change her mind about sleeping with you is rapey then i think we're all in trouble

the most troubling part might be the persistence of the guy, but you know, it's a song -- it has to last a few minutes.

like "blurred lines", someone with certain experiences is well within her/his rights to interpret the song less forgivingly, but it's another thing i think to make assumptions about the writer's intentions

this song is a target commercial for zoey deschanel to sell sweaters
Choir's 'cold outside' is much better, is not a holiday song, and is mopey, not rapey, and stiv bators version is good, too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8uTMVyhPmE

lol at ppl insisting 'it's not a holiday song, it's a winter song', like you routinely hear this and 'jingle bells' and 'winter wonderland' in february. this shit ain't schubert.

Oh noes, I am a Cis-Het dude being made to think about rape for the whole sixth time in my life, DEAR GOD MAKE IT STOP. Why don't they ever shut up.

― The Manics: Very Welsh, Much Working Class, So cialist (Branwell Bell), Tuesday, December 24, 2013 5:47 PM (1 hour ago)

you should try pairing this with your "i suppose now you guys will make this thread turn into a clusterfuck" schtick for full effect pro tip

Anyway, "Santa Baby" is far more ethically grating.

^^^

lol balls

this song is a target commercial for zoey deschanel to sell sweaters

this song existed before zooey deschanel or target

witch doctor wasn't originally an alvin and the chipmunks song, but that's what it is now.

rob delaney ‏@robdelaney 2h

Until it was outlawed in 1986, the “Baby It’s Cold Outside” defense was successfully used in cases involving countless atrocities.

The drink is the excuse. The drink is the shield someone gets to hold up in front of them to protect from criticism. And it’s not just used in these sort of romantic situations. I’ve heard it in many investigation type scenes where the stoolpigeon character is giving up bits of information they’re supposed to be protecting, in screwball comedies where someone is making a fool of themselves, and, yes, in romantic movies where someone is experiencing feelings they are not supposed to have.

I understand the usage that's being described, but I can't think of any examples off the top of my head. Was it actually all that common in old movies?

idk that I would call this song a "carol"

nb i don't actually know what carol means

i don't remember it in any old movies but i vaguely remember it as a trope in old sitcoms that nick + nite played in the 90s.

"Oh my, I guess the champagne bubbles must be going to my head"

"The answer is no."

it's not hard for me to read the woman's lines as ways to get the persistent man to back off without being impolite. the "what will my family/neighbors think" is an appeal for him to protect her honor and his own. i think it's possible to interpret this as "i like you and dont want to offend you, but i really do want to leave tonight." for that and other reasons i have a pretty unforgiving interpretation of this song.

so why does she sing "baby it's cold outside" in harmony with him at the end?

male songwriter wants his happy ending

also:
“I ought to say no, no, no sir, well, at least I’m gonna say that I tried.”

male songwriter wants his happy ending

― rhyme heals all goons (m bison), Tuesday, December 24, 2013 2:46 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

oh come on, if you're just going to trump everything with "well a man wrote it so that's the way the man wants it" then there's no point in close-reading the song at all

that's when she realizes how cold and cruel the world is xxxp

im not saying she's not conflicted, im just not swayed by the "she's playing it coy" line of defense. he's not listening to her at all, so its not even really a back and forth; its two concurrent monologues.

that's the narrative the songwriter is pushing tho! due to currents socials mores she will resist but she really wants to stay with you, dont take no for answer, etc. she will come around eventually if u tell her how horny she makes you.

quintessential ilx thread, kudos everyone

But he's not taking that next step into actually doing something coercive. Like what is actually wrong with him continuing to plead with her? I feel like you're giving the woman in the song way too little credit.

like the last part before she joins him for ~harmony~ is, guess i'll have a smoke, can i borrow your coat? I'm audi 5. during which he's like u could die also i will have blue balls quit holding out BABY ITS COLLLLLLLD OUUUUUUTSIIIIIIE

if someone believes all male-female sexual relationships inevitably are tainted by a quantity of coercion than there's no reason this song would be different + certainly a member of the ruling patriarchy would try to downplay anything that might make explicit said coercion. in that sense this song is much more problematic as it not only attempts to normalize male-female sexuality but normalize a particularly brazen manifestation of it - the coercive alcohol-aided seduction of the female object. in the end her own objections are utterly obliterated as she joins in harmony w/ the male's initial reading of the text - that she really should stay bc it's cold outside.

if it's supposed to be totally consensual the writer does a rly shitty job of establishing that is all im saying

in what context can any piece of culture ever successfully resist the complete + total annihilating vision of the patriarchy? i guess we can locate some pockets of resistance but probably not playing over the soundsystem of department stores over the shopping holiday season. perfect opportunity to drill the values + mores of rape culture into consumer sheep brains.

A+

otoh the female is not even given voice to question that "the night time is the right time to rock the night away" -- her consent is beyond assumed

the fuck yall talking about

Y'all are overlooking the fact that there is nothing in the song that specifies the sex of the protagonists by the way. If it's "rapey" then it's the performances that make it so, not the song.

'rudolph the red-nosed reindeer': excuses bullying, promotes unfair hiring practices

we're finally thru the looking glass: xmas songs are mostly bullshit

Y'all are overlooking the fact that there is nothing in the song that specifies the sex of the protagonists by the way. If it's "rapey" then it's the performances that make it so, not the song.

― everything, Tuesday, December 24, 2013 3:00 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I was actually going to post a blog comment that noted that in the original film in which the song appeared, it is sung twice, once with male pleading with female, and once with female pleading with male

I had to sing this (amongst others, me and one other guy doing the male part and then about eight women doing the female part) at our work fundraising carols (roaming floor to floor, annoying people and collecting money), and apart from being dubious it was very hard to sing if you only have a passing knowledge of it. And an odd song to sing at work although it kinda makes sense as something bosses say to their staff in law firms?

There, that is my contribution to this thread.

really dislike this song for musical reasons. Plus tom jones.

next year let's do "I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus"

slut-shaming, imo.

I was actually going to post a blog comment that noted that in the original film in which the song appeared, it is sung twice, once with male pleading with female, and once with female pleading with male

And, since she was brought up in this thread, Zooey Deschanel and M. Ward do the "female pleading" version on the She & Him Christmas record.

Oh noes, I am a Cis-Het dude being made to think about rape for the whole sixth time in my life, DEAR GOD MAKE IT STOP. Why don't they ever shut up.
― The Manics: Very Welsh, Much Working Class, So cialist (Branwell Bell), Tuesday, December 24, 2013 5:47 PM (1 hour ago)

I know I am going to be annoyed by getting trolled by this bullshit tomorrow, but late + whiskey says that I can't let go of how furious this comment makes me. Your assumption that Cis-Het status makes people somehow immune to rape, esp in relation to the use of drugs/alcohol, just so you can make a dumb point about a song and clown me? Well, you don't know me, and maybe you should hold yourself to the same standard you just tried to hang on me. Not only does it happen, but it happened to me twice. Thanks for making me think about this shit on Christmas Eve you prick.

Side note: no, I don't want to fucking talk about it, no offense to the rest of you, but at least wrt to me and specifics, I'm not talking about this again on ilx.

On a more thread related note, I heard that she and him version today and wow it's awful

gaaaah this thread, holy shit O_o

aaaaanyhoo *steps around flaming turds*

i like the ella/louis version that Mordy mentioned upthread

also don't kill me but the Bette Midler / James Caan version in For the Boys goes a long way with me too

dino's version is rapey-er to me bcz of his whole boozehound persona ... same with buble who just creeps me out generally

kinda depends on delivery for me, i guess?

how do we feel abt sigourney + buster poindexter

http://touch.dailymotion.com/video/xbu0ht_baby-it-s-cold-outside-sigourney-w_fun

*goes back to Dr Who christmas reruns*

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

why was this all twitter talked about this year?

I think you're confusing this song with Blurred Lines.

Mention of tom jones itt: fp

The usual suspects: fp

Ray Charles version best I've heard, live version given me on tape for rehearsal purposes, dunno who other part was, impression given is that ray & partner know whats goin on and counted on it from the start- from her delivery, ray might be in trouble tbh.

The usual suspects: fp'd again, just in case.

Next: coerced ordination of snowman in walkin in a winter wonderland: agency, religion and slush-shaming

lol dmac

google sez ray charles/betty carter give yr ears a present

tom jones ffs

the usuals ffs

first time I ever heard this was on SNL in the 80's with Sigourney Weaver and Buster Poindexter and I found it creepy. But I like it now.

I love that this was just a throwaway number for performing to houseguests for about five years, before Loesser thought to record it properly

― Ismael Klata, Tuesday, December 24, 2013 4:33 PM (6 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, this has colored the way I hear the song ever since I learned the background. Loesser wrote it for him and his wife to sing at parties where everyone was expected to show up with a number prepared. Which I think is sweet, and also mostly makes me wish I could've gone to those parties. (Less sweet I guess is that his wife was mad when he actually published and sold the song, because she thought of it as just their private thing.)

Just learned this, which highlights the coercion that some see in the lyrics. Not just coercion, but a predator/prey, winner/loser scenario.

The lyrics in this duet are designed to be heard as a conversation between two people, marked as "mouse" and "wolf" on the printed score; they have returned to the "wolf's" home after a date, and the "mouse" decides it is time to go home, but the "wolf" flirtatiously invites her to stay as it is late and "it's cold outside."[3] Every line in the song features a statement from the "mouse" followed by a response from the "wolf". Usually the "wolf" part is sung by a male and the "mouse" by a female.

Which led me to find this, which is OTM.

If no means no -- and I think we're all familiar with that concept -- then by refusing to accept her no, the wolf in question is displaying a fundamental disrespect toward the mouse. Sure, maybe it's a disrespect grounded in historical social rules. But it's still disrespect.

This is, I think, illustrative of why "yes means yes" -- the concept of enthusiastic consent -- is actually just as important as no meaning no. There's no confusion with an enthusiastic (rather than a grudging or coerced) yes. An enthusiastic yes means all parties are on board for the party in someone's Christmas pants.

Enthusiastic consent wasn't a thing in the time the song was written, which means that you can see the "mouse" (male or female) as interested but feeling restricted to being coy. But that reading just says to me that the social norms of the 1940s had pitfalls that blurred the line between yes and no.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

Ok well, see y'all next year! *waves bye*

baby, it's cold outside so bundle up

This isn't over. This isn't over by a long shot!

http://mediamikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/nancyallen4.jpg

see what you did with your innocent poll

Its over. Holiday song. Non rapey. stfu for 11 months the usuals. You'll have a shot again next year.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5Rbkcxiibw

maybe not rapey, but definitely Ray C.

xp WRONG! IT'S STILL COLD OUT AND PEOPLE STILL BE RAPING!!

cant deny yr argument tbf

otoh, maybe if that damned fire hadn't been so delightful...

Ugh, not a fan of this new adjective "rapey." Seems like a great way to make anybody else's opinion invalid.

at best, its a lazy attempt at describing a personal distaste. at worst, it's an attempt to demand a defense without having to stand by the accusation.

And demonize anyone who disagrees.

In 2014, I resolve to blame the victim more often.

it makes a big difference how it's sung (the woman could sound like she's damn well fine with what's in the drink, the dude could violently shriek "WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO DO WITH MY PRIDE?"), but it IS a song that tries to suggest something romantic and playful in a dynamic that clearly has a coercive if not predatory element. That's more then enough reason to hate a christmas song - far be it from me to defend ANY holiday song, really.

Well said. I haven't heard the song in ages so I can't really offer an opinion, but I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who enjoy the song without being rapists.

Next thing ya know, you'll be saying Nirvana's Polly is rapey. Oh wait...

Have we done the Beatles "Run For Your Life" yet?

not so much rapey as abusive iirc

as in, rapey implies some kind of grey area whereas there really isn't much grey area in Run For Your Life

ugh why did I say anything i will stop talking now

I would vote rapey. As Je55e mentioned the original score is divided as an interaction between the Wolf and the Mouse so it is meant that the wolf is being agressive and ill intended towards the mouse. There's also the ambiguity in the 'what's in this drink?' line.

as mentioned the original score was written by a husband wife team also so i mean

tumblrspeak/twitterspeak words that end in an 'ie' sound are generally horrible

see also: bestie, selfie

literalie

you guys would hate Australia

i see you've played knifey-spoony before

smithy otm

now let me tell you about all the prezzies I got for Chrissy

The answer is noey.

rape on the barbie

Rapey holidey

Serious question? What would be a correct adjective to use instead of 'rapey'?

Sexual harassmentey?

what does it mean to act rapey? does it mean to do things that rapists do - eg raping? in which case why do you need the term rapey when you can use the term rapist?

Rapist is a noun

I'm more invested in inventing a spurious word for holiday songs that aren't really holiday songs. Holidayey Song?

Festive

Gay

fauxliday songs

also rape-culturey in lieu of rapey

x-posts

noëly

Rapey afaik stands for a person that gives creepy sexual vibes. Not necessarily a rapist.

kringley

ach mordy u brought me back here for this ffs im drinking

but do you know what's in your drink?

U ask me this some hours too late tbph

Happy 2014, darraghmac

how is babby warmed

lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG-VwHHqFKg

hahahaharapeha

rapeish

One youtube vid is worth a thousand posts.

key and peele did it p well tbf

Hilarious!

Its over. Holiday song. Non rapey. stfu for 11 months the usuals. You'll have a shot again next year.

― lorde othering (darraghmac), Tuesday, 31 December 2013 08:08 (1 year ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Due again, the usuals

Forever banished from my xmas playlists in any case.

Thought this revive was going to be about the Bill Murray/Jenny Lewis duet.

yes, please let this word die with 2013

― signed, J.P. Morgan CEO (Hurting 2), Tuesday, December 24, 2013 11:21 AM (1 year ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

https://www.google.com/trends/explore?q=rapey#q=rapey&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT%2B5

sigh.

noël means noël

good song

Queries
Top
Rising
rapey sloth
100
blurred lines rapey
50
rapey meme
35
a bit rapey
35

Rape Sloth | Know Your Meme
knowyourmeme.com/memes/rape-sloth
Know Your Meme
Rape Sloth is an advice animal image macro series featuring a photograph of a sloth that appears to be whispering in a woman’s ear. The captions often contain creepy sexual innuendo, pick up lines and alarming threats that are meant to disturb the reader, in a similar vein to ...

The updated version (now non-rapey!)

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/02/us/baby-its-cold-outside-cover-trnd/index.html

" I really can't stay/Baby I'm fine with that" opens the song,

a) Is it still "rapey" if Rufus Wainwright sings the male lead?

b) Bubl'e doesn't have the definitive version of ANY song.

c) Women who smoke are generally accepted as "loose" so feel free to liquor them up and ply you wares;)

d) Listen to the interplay on the version from Jimmy Smith & Wes Montgomery and call it day, or, shitcan the whole deal and listen to Billie Holiday have a go at it on "I´ve Got My Love To Keep Me Warm".

i really love this song !! but i always feel bad for listening to it for all the lore

the Jimmy Smith & Wes Montgomery version is the only one I've got, it doesn't sound very seasonal but it absolutely smokes.

... i especially love how coming out of the vamp and back into the chorus, Montgomery misses a string and Jimmy comes right back a does the same thing in response on his Hammond.

there's an everydayfeminism thinkpiece just begging to be written about how this song is surprisingly sex-positive by jazz age standards and how it's patronizing to assume that the woman is acting under coercion when she makes the empowering choice to define her sexuality on her own terms by accepting the man's advances in spite of conventional morality and received wisdom advising her to the contrary.

"4 Reasons Why 'Baby It's Cold Outside' Isn't As Rapey As You Think"

I think the fact that the girl at the end cheerfully says "baby it's cold outside," (i.e. "ok, I'll stay,") makes it pretty obvious that the song is not "rapey," not to mention that most of her protests are like "what will the neighbors think" kind of stuff. Even having to read it this closely to make the point makes me die inside a little.

― signed, J.P. Morgan CEO (Hurting 2), Tuesday, December 24, 2013 12:31 PM (two years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ahead of his time

can we drop the use of the word "rapey"? It's annoying as hell.

resolution to ban the word rapey and michael buble

all in favor

https://www.sysoon.com/deceased/theodore-rapey-37

We haven't had that spirit here since 1984.

"rapish" more grammatically correct

there's an everydayfeminism thinkpiece just begging to be written about how this song is surprisingly sex-positive by jazz age standards and how it's patronizing to assume that the woman is acting under coercion when she makes the empowering choice to define her sexuality on her own terms by accepting the man's advances in spite of conventional morality and received wisdom advising her to the contrary.

I think it was linked earlier on the thread: http://persephonemagazine.com/2010/12/listening-while-feminist-in-defense-of-baby-its-cold-outside/

oh, Christ

NPR took notice

gonna do this every year huh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiCstfC9FfM

http://bigbutterandeggman.tumblr.com/post/154013148291/teachingwithcoffee-its-time-to-bring-an-end-to

Still not a Christmas song, tho.

I like that explanation, but what are some other examples of this stock joke? I asked this upthread and nothing specific came up.

I can think of one possible example in The Rules of the Game (Christine: "I drank way too much; I don't know what I'm doing," right before going off with St. Aubin).

In The Rules of the Game is every exception. It is life itself.

trans-era humorlessness is a helluva drug

(i mean "across eras" there, to be clear)

Post flagged.

what're those New Puritan membership dues?

Now I want a Neil Young Trans-era Baby It's Cold Outside.

https://images.eil.com/large_image/NEIL_YOUNG_TRANS%2B-%2BQUIEX%2BII-77882.jpg

This is happening: https://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/canadian-radio-stations-baby-it-s-cold-outside-1.4931867

I'm cool with this being a poll/discussion on a message board; less so with this kind of action. I just don't see how anyone who argues strongly on one side or the other of this issue is going to come out looking good.

I don't think I have ever heard this song

I don't know if the point is raised on this long thread; but I think it's interesting that in the original movie, Neptune's Daughter, the song is performed twice -- first, by Esther Williams and Ricardo Montalbán (with the familiar dynamic); and then again later, in a "role-reversal" twist, in which Betty Garrett is trying to convince Red Skelton to let her stay. Both versions are in this clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MFJ7ie_yGU

I hated this song before it wasn't okay to hate it. Except my hatred is real, because I literally don't care if he's going to take advantage of her. I just fucking hate this heinous piece of aural dreck.

I don't think I have ever heard this song

― Οὖτις, Tuesday, December 4, 2018 2:25 PM (eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i always think this, but i have, it’s just incredibly unmemorable

It's also interesting (to me) that the song was recorded & released eight times in 1949 alone (the year the film came out), producing multiple hit records; including by heavy hitters like Ella Fitzgerald, Dinah Shore, etc.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby,_It%27s_Cold_Outside#1949_recordings

That's what I miss about old pop music: the covers of contemporary songs. Don't like the Beatles version of 'Hey Jude'? More of an r+b fan?

I got you.

I'm being deadly seriously when I say that I'd love to hear Julia Holter's take on something like, I don't know. . . 'Call Me Maybe'. I guess publishing isn't what it used to be, in this regard.

I only ever became conscious of this songs existence via hearing the Wes Montgomery & Jimmy Smith version on a Wes Montgomery compilation in 2006. It just coincidentally happened to be around Christmas time.

How do you avoid this song? I hear it all the time in public this time of year.

Sorry, I'm finding the Wikipedia entry fascinating:

During the 1940s, when Hollywood celebrities attended parties, they were expected to perform. In 1944, Frank Loesser wrote "Baby, It's Cold Outside" for his wife, Lynn Garland, and himself to sing at a housewarming party in New York City at the Navarro Hotel. They sang the song to indicate to guests that it was time to leave. Loesser often introduced himself as the "evil of two Loessers" because of the role he played in the song.

Garland wrote that after the first performance, "We become instant parlor room stars. We got invited to all the best parties for years on the basis of 'Baby.' It was our ticket to caviar and truffles. Parties were built around our being the closing act." In 1948, after years of performing the song, Loesser sold it to MGM for the 1949 romantic comedy Neptune's Daughter. Garland was furious, and wrote, "I felt as betrayed as if I'd caught him in bed with another woman."

I mean I hear it more often now, but it's one of those standards that would have flown by if I was not paying attention.

It's like how it was only a few years ago I was made aware of the Christmas song "Marshmallow World".

xp They actually did divorce! (though not until 1957)

Loesser also wrote, among other things, the songs from Guys and Dolls ("Luck Be a Lady Tonight," "A Bushel and a Peck," etc.).

I likely would've never known this song if it wasnt for the creepy shower scene from elf

I just don't see how anyone who argues strongly on one side or the other of this issue is going to come out looking good.

A conundrum that could've so easily been avoided if people had only realized the whole time that there's nothing remotely holiday-ish about this song.

xp. I've heard it twice in public thus far this "holiday season"

I just don't see how anyone who argues strongly on one side or the other of this issue is going to come out looking good.

A conundrum that could've so easily been avoided if people had only realized the whole time that there's nothing remotely holiday-ish about this song.

― I Never Promised You A Hose Harden (Eric H.), Tuesday, December 4, 2018 2:43 PM (twenty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is a weird horse to flog. jingle bells has nothing to do with christmas but here we are

One side won’t look good bc they’re denying obvious reality and the other bc in 2018 an argument that something isn’t rapey will always be suspect as general rape apologetics.

Another example of a "holiday standard" that has nothing to do w/Xmas, just wintry timez -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27ve_Got_My_Love_to_Keep_Me_Warm

i quite like Jen Kirkman’s thread on this from the other day - which basically reinforces kate78’s post wayyyyy upthread that this song is a foreplay song
(kirkman links to the Persephone piece too)

I’m so tired of this. The song seems odd now not cuz it’s about coercing sex but about a woman who knows her reputation is ruined if she stays. “Say what’s in this drink” is an old movie line from the 30’s that means “I’m telling the truth.” She wanted to get down and stay over. https://t.co/3TaQbUSoB1

— JEN KIRKMAN (@JenKirkman) December 1, 2018

Song may not be rapey, but it's nonetheless an example of that old highly gender-specific trope, whereby man tries to persuade woman to do something she has doubts about, for whatever reasons. The reasons here obviously sound very old fashioned to our ears, but it's still a case of a no could mean a yes if only I can talk her round.

It's probably the Loesser of two evils, anyway

I was in two minds, until GMB played th song from the film, what Piers called "a nice happy Christmas movie".

Basically, bloke invades woman's personal space, chases her around the room only slightly slower than Benny Hill, shuts curtains, crams next to her on a seat she sits on, etc. All this after she's already said "The Answer Is No".

The staging/performance in the movie is (surprisingly) mediocre... even the sets are cheap. This was clearly not a top-shelf MGM production.

That said, the song predated the movie and became popular thanks to dozens of recordings afterward (as discussed above); the movie is by no means the “original/definitive” interpretation. No one knows the film, anyway.

Have come around to think the song is def not rapey, but I think the same cultural context that made the song not rapey (women having to coyly put up a front of not wanting to be "easy") provided cover for a lot of actual rape, so it's good we've moved beyond that.

i continue to take more issue with the word "rapey"

I apologize for using it. I would not object to a mod replacing it with something more appropriate.

“Say what’s in this drink” is an old movie line from the 30’s that means “I’m telling the truth.”

I'd still be curious to hear some backup for this.

I apologize for using it. I would not object to a mod replacing it with something more appropriate.

― I Never Promised You A Hose Harden (Eric H.), Wednesday, December 5, 2018 9:40 AM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it was 2013, it was all anybody was saying about "blurred lines" too. i take more issue with it being used now

or maybe i don't actually care lol, god this song is so boring

Key line — “put some records on while I pour”

swap "rapey" for "engenders a feeling of warm nostalgia for a time when the notion consent was a cutesy little joke"

I'd still be curious to hear some backup for this.

Yeah, I've seen this asserted a few times, without seeing examples of it. Even otherwise, though, I think it's a real stretch to read "what's in this drink?' as implying "her drink was secretly spiked with drugs".

googling "what's in this drink" brought this up first thing: https://medium.com/@jeffreydenny77/say-whats-in-this-drink-9d720f79918b

Doesn't actually clear up the '30s origin story claim, but does slice up the positions the song draws people into circa now.

For the politically woke, the song represents classic white Western patriarchal, phallocratic Weinstein-style sexual dominance and coercion, so the song should be abolished immediately from playlists lest our children grow up gender-insensitive and un-woke like we did.

For the politically tone deaf, the Weinstein Defense suffices; “all the rules about behavior and workplaces were different. That was the culture then.” The guy in the song was just innocently cajoling a gal he liked to possibly achieve sexual congress, just as our fathers did with our mothers to spawn us.

For the politically advanced, the song represents “an anthem for progressive women… and even [a] subversive message about woman’s sexuality in its own time,” a Washington Post guest columnist, a Georgetown University graduate student, explained in 2014. Even if the woman in the song wanted to stay, she worried about slut-shaming by family and neighbors. “In this light, the song could be read as an advocacy for women’s sexual liberation rather than a tune about date rape,” the columnist noted.

To the politically regressive, the oversensitive safe-space snowflakes and PC Police are overreacting deliciously as usual. Noting that Loesser wrote the song to perform with Lynn Garland, his wife and musical partner, at parties, a Daily Caller writer argued, “It was written in an era when seduction was not synonymous with sexual assault, you didn’t need to sign a consent form to hold a girl’s hand, and men weren’t assumed to be vicious predators. In fact, the only vicious one in this song is the woman’s aunt.”

Doesn't the "say, what's in this drink" trope relate more to blurting out something that's probably truthful but you wouldn't ordinarily say in that situation?

But that interpretation doesn't fit in the context of the preceding lines

Interesting. I completely believed that "what's in this drink?" meant something innocuous: if not the meaning given earlier, either something to the effect of "my, you're really sweeping me away" or just "oh, this is a nice drink; what's in it?". However, in both versions of the song in the Neptune's Daughter clips upthread, the 'mouse' does sing the line while reacting as if there is something funny in the drink and putting the drink aside.

god this song is so boring

no, horror films are boring

This song is a horror film.

maybe everybody could just chill about policing the cultural remnants of bygone decades in cases when no one's being hurt

it would free up a lot of time

“say what’s in this drink?”
http://persephonemagazine.com/2010/12/listening-while-feminist-in-defense-of-baby-its-cold-outside/

So let’s talk about that drink. I’ve discussed solely looking at the lyrics of the song and its internal universe so far, but I think that the line “Say, what’s in this drink” needs to be explained in a broader context to refute the idea that he spiked her drink. “Say, what’s in this drink” is a well-used phrase that was common in movies of the time period and isn’t really used in the same manner any longer. The phrase generally referred to someone saying or doing something they thought they wouldn’t in normal circumstances; it’s a nod to the idea that alcohol is “making” them do something unusual. But the joke is almost always that there is nothing in the drink. The drink is the excuse. The drink is the shield someone gets to hold up in front of them to protect from criticism. And it’s not just used in these sort of romantic situations. I’ve heard it in many investigation type scenes where the stoolpigeon character is giving up bits of information they’re supposed to be protecting, in screwball comedies where someone is making a fool of themselves, and, yes, in romantic movies where someone is experiencing feelings they are not supposed to have.

the movie is by no means the “original/definitive” interpretation

Here's a version by Frank Loesser and Lynn though (direct mp3 link)

no, horror films are boring

― a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, December 5, 2018 1:05 PM (fifteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

take it to ile

VG, that explanation has been posted here a couple of times, including that same article, I think. I and jmm are interested in actual examples of the line being used that way in films of that time (or other sources). I'm not convinced that the scenes from Neptune's Daughter do show the line working in that way.

I'm not in favour of banning the song at all, tbc.

maybe everybody could just chill about policing the cultural remnants of bygone decades in cases when no one's being hurt

it would free up a lot of time

― a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, December 5, 2018 3:07 PM (twenty-eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otfm

I'm being deadly seriously when I say that I'd love to hear Julia Holter's take on something like, I don't know. . . 'Call Me Maybe'.

― Totally different head. Totally. (Austin), Tuesday, 4 December 2018 21:42 (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Now here's the real horror

I'm not in favour of banning the song at all, tbc.

I'm not either. I don't appreciate it as a holiday song, but whatever. I try to only listen to church crap during the month if I can manage.

When they came for "Baby, It's Cold Outside", I grimaced. When they came for "Wives and Lovers", I whimpered. When they came for "You're Sixteen", I grinned. When they came for "Seventeen", I helped them load the other Winger cds into the windowless van.

this whole thing cropping up again bugs me not because there are multiple opinions on the matter, but because of how many people have adopted the "it's sexual assault" angle not due to their own close reading, but because of the received wisdom. half the convos I've seen in the last week have boiled down to (and I apologize for bringing up Brad's least fav word)

(song plays)

"Oh, I love that song"
"Huh? don't you know it's rapey!"

and that's where the convo ends because it's treated like this thing you learned in 3rd grade. which is why I actually liked this thread lol

whats in this drink

means

its a strong drink

you are all fucking mental

is "you are all fucking mental" the part the guy sings in response

in the adele version iirc

Very prescient thread...I always liked the Ray Charles/Betty Carter version. I'm pretty close to absolute against banning any song. Close, not absolute--wherever my line is (it's not something I think about a lot, or ever), there are songs that would cross that line. This is far from that line: it requires interpretation that may or may not be valid. Frank Loesser, who wrote the song, has been dead for almost 50 years. You'd have to hook him up to a lie detector test to be sure of his intentions. You can't do that.

If a particular station wants to ban it, they're free to do that. If their listeners don't complain or stop listening, then their decision is cost-free.

Otherwise: attack, criticize, find it creepy, make it a cause, whatever you want.

If a particular station wants to ban it, they're free to do that. If their listeners don't complain or stop listening, then their decision is cost-free.

every radio station that has ever existed has banned 99.99999% of all songs ever written under this definition of banning

True enough. This song doesn't exist for 99% of stations anyway. If a jazz station were to ban the Ray Charles/Betty Carter version, or a station that plays a wide array of Christmas music were to ban all versions--and it's not really a Christmas song, although it seems to have been subsumed into that category--then you'd know. If they announced the ban, that is--even those stations could ban it without you actually knowing. Which all underscores how silly this is.

Under that definition, Ed Sheeran's "Thinking Out Loud" is not banned.

The only two bans I can think of that actually registered were when rock stations that used to play "Walk on the Wild Side" and "Money for Nothing" to death removed them from playlists. I was sick of the first anyway, and they did the world a gigantic favour by banishing the latter. No idea if they're still verboten or back.

it's funny, prior to learning anything about this song (besides this thread title) I had assumed the song was from the point of view of a man who was locked outside in the freezing cold begging to be let in to some lady's place (where he would subsequently ravish her a la the Wolf in lil Red Riding Hood)

”Oh, I love that song"

Do some people think cucumbers taste better pickled?

Everyone thinks that!

Here's a version by Frank Loesser and Lynn though (direct mp3 link)

Cool, thx! Neat to hear

The languorous quality of that performance definitely cuts against the “Ricardo Maltalbán as manic horndog” staging in Neptune’s Daughter.

If a particular station wants to ban it, they're free to do that. If their listeners don't complain or stop listening, then their decision is cost-free.

every radio station that has ever existed has banned 99.99999% of all songs ever written under this definition of banning

― sans lep (sic), Wednesday, December 5, 2018 6:01 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

True enough. This song doesn't exist for 99% of stations anyway. If a jazz station were to ban the Ray Charles/Betty Carter version, or a station that plays a wide array of Christmas music were to ban all versions--and it's not really a Christmas song, although it seems to have been subsumed into that category--then you'd know. If they announced the ban, that is--even those stations could ban it without you actually knowing. Which all underscores how silly this is.

― clemenza, Wednesday, December 5, 2018 6:06 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I assume that CBC had it in their playlists if they are making an announcement about pulling it. And I do think a national public broadcaster should be held to a different standard when it comes to this sort of decision than a local private business: it exists to serve some sort of public interest and it is appropriate to evaluate its decisions in those terms. I will freely admit, though, that I have no real idea how Radio 2 playlists are decided in the first place, although they seem to get a lot of listeners in Ottawa at least.

http://bigbutterandeggman.tumblr.com/post/154013148291/teachingwithcoffee-its-time-to-bring-an-end-to

Still the best response to this fiasco.

Again, though, some examples to support the historical claim would help. If the drink as a means of plausible deniability was such a common trope at the time, then it should be easy to settle the controversy.

I'd also like to see examples, out of historical interest -- but considering that the only alternative reading of those lines ("Say, what's in this drink? / I seem to be in some crazy spell / I ought to say no, no, no, sir / At least I'm gonna say that I tried") would be that he literally spiked her drink (while pouring it in front of her), I think it's fairly safe to accept the "performative show of plausible deniability" interpretation... at least following the "Occam's razor school" of holiday-song lyric interpretation.

Also, keep in mind that the song plays out for another full verse, which mirrors the first -- only this time, it's "maybe just a cigarette more..." (instead of a drink). She clearly didn't pass out from a roofie, and the drink didn't seem to put her into much of a stupor.

All this said, I agree with with Zelda's point above that the interplay of desire and consent in the song, and its arguable "trivialization" of / finding humor in the notion of consent, may not fit well with modern sensibilities ("it's nonetheless an example of that old highly gender-specific trope, whereby man tries to persuade woman to do something she has doubts about, for whatever reasons."). I like the song, anyway!

The song was written to get people leave. Mission accomplished, from my corner.

Doubt this song was on CBC R2 playlist to begin with, since it's not a mid-tempo semi-acoustic rocker.

considering that the only alternative reading of those lines ("Say, what's in this drink? / I seem to be in some crazy spell / I ought to say no, no, no, sir / At least I'm gonna say that I tried") would be that he literally spiked her drink

the reading is "woo this liquor is stronger than I thought, teehee" not "YOU HAVE GIVEN ME CHLORAL HYDRATE YOU MONSTER"

The point is it doesn't need a dubious claim of being some 1940s movie meme because it literally fucking means something that people would still jocularly say tofuckingday

This song is actually feminist and I have a thinkpiece that proves it.

Editors, DM me to negotiate a fee

xp Yeah, that's basically my point... the lines seem fairly easy to "read" on their face.

(Though I think you could dice it where she's pretending to blame the drink not just for being strong, but for being "spiked"... but of course it's just a pretense, she's making a show.)

Doubt this song was on CBC R2 playlist to begin with, since it's not a mid-tempo semi-acoustic rocker.

Ha. A couple of weeks ago, they were doing a 'deep dive' into the entire Goodbye Yellow Brick Road album and it finally registered that they're just trolling at this point.

I just heard the Pentatonix version of "Hallelujah" on the radio for the first time this year, and if this is what it is meant to fill the contemporary void left by "problematic" chestnuts like "Baby It's Cold Outside," then I know what side of the issue I strongly reside on now.

A couple years ago I heard a Pentatonix version of "White Winter Hymnal" by Fleet Foxes on holiday Muzak at Denny's and what world is this?

Ugh

https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/entertainment-news/its-not-a-date-rape-song-baby-its-cold-outside-composers-daughter-speaks-out/63-622183448

Today a friend posted about this and a local playwright who is well-respected (and her husband) barged in to say how rapey it actually is and lambasting how all the people in the thread defending it were male (despite several women, including a local well-knowm actress who is a vocal feminist defending the song above her). And used the usual "what's this in my drink" angle to attack it.

What really set me off is how one of the respondents, who admittedly argued his point poorly, opened up about how he was a sexual assault victim and the response from the husband was basically "I'm sorry you experienced that, but am curious then why you'd want to listen to this song having experienced that".

I lost my shit at the audacity of someone to be so sure that their reading was the only acceptable one that they'd chide an assault victim for tolerating the song. So I pointed out I was sexually assaulted under the exact circumstances that she was accusing the male character of - a man twice my age who picked up on my naive trust and emotional instability, offered me heavy amounts of liquor with the sole purpose of getting me drunk enough to pass out, then unzipped my pants while I was asleep, crawled into bed with me, and did as he wished. And how I still didn't break off our friendship for another two years due to fear, even letting him come to my grandma's funeral and hug my grieving mother and never telling her what he did to me.

I'm not an appeal to authority person and don't presume to suggest this gives me cart blanche to speak for victims but it infuriates me how this debate is going from blog fodder to people suggesting assault victims who don't agree with their reading of the song are audacious because they should "know better". Still fucking angry

✊ to Neanderthal

✊

✊🏻

As a different sort of “appeal to authority”: what do the detractors think of every woman artist who has ever recorded this song; even just those in the “modern era,” from Bette Midler to Dolly Parton to Lady Gaga to Norah Jones to Idina Menzel to Fantasia to Zooey Deschanel (twice)... not to mention all the male artists? Are all these singers taken to be either deluded as to the song’s “true meaning”; or aware of it, and callously willing to perform a vile duet for the $$?

The spiked/not spiked interpretation should be a litmus test... for what I don’t know.

There is no way that drink was spiked. Whether it’s good to treat the practice of plying hesitant women with alcohol as a joke is a separate question.

I do think she is supposed to be “playing along” but you know the trope is not great.

If it's to be interpreted about a woman's sense of self-shame and how society casts morality values on sexual liberation then its still a pretty joyless listen and I dont understand why anyone would want to buy into that

For sure

Why is the listener “buying into” anything, necessarily?

I find most holiday songs to be fairly “joyless listens”; this one at least has a friction that makes it interesting.

I think it’s a joy to listen to.

i can't believe we still have to see these fucking thinkpieces like 5 years after this thread was started

new borad description plz

Twenty years from now, kids listening to "Baby it's cold outside" are gonna find it really, really weird.

We're gonna have to explain that it has to be understood in the context of its time.

You see, it used to get cold outside.

— Zi Teng Wang (@Zi_W) December 10, 2018

Sad lols

<i>i can't believe we still have to see these fucking thinkpieces like 5 years after this thread was started/<i>

because clickbait

That's *their* excuse

Wow: https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4941087

(Ceeb reversed their decision, citing audience reaction.)

I'm just dropping by to reiterate my confusion as to why the word "rapey" needs to exist.

I have no idea if I responded to it way back in 2013, but Hurting's three-item refutation of the word was OTM.

As for the song itself, I've cooled on it - it is certainly creepier to me since it became the subject of an ongoing discussion.

xxp A Bay Area station has done the same: http://www.ktvu.com/news/san-francisco-radio-station-brings-back-controversial-baby-it-s-cold-outside-

listeing to the updated version of the "baby its cold outside" song where the guy's trying to convince the woman to leave so he can jack off

— wint (@dril) December 12, 2018

Lol came here to post that

Baby I ordered you a Lyft

— Ambassador to South Africa Lana Marxist (@andymosk) December 12, 2018

Front page of the NY Times today! quoting Wm Shatner, no less.

i'm waiting to see if this culture can get any more pedantically boring

'Tis the season!

https://pitchfork.com/news/john-legend-rewrites-controversial-lyrics-from-baby-its-cold-outside/

god damn it

halloween hasn't even been yet fuck

Halloween’s kind of rapey too, come to think of it.

my new hot take: this song isn't rapey enough

Is ‘Rape Me’ a holiday song?

It is cold outside tbf

“What will my friends think...” sings Clarkson.
“I think they should rejoice,” Legend responds.
“... if I have one more drink?”
“It’s your body, and your choice.”

Smooth.

thread needs more pharaohe monch.

Telling a woman who's over for a drink "It's your body, and your choice" seems more creepy than "please stay."

it seems like the dumb articles about this song come out earlier & earlier each year

when i was a kid they didnt start putting out the holiday clickbait until the weekend after thanksgiving

I wish Two Sleepy People took over from BICO as Loesser's holiday classic. It's such a better song.

“What will my friends think...” sings Clarkson.
“I think they should rejoice,” Legend responds.
“... if I have one more drink?”
“It’s your body, and your choice.”
Smooth.

― jmm, Tuesday, October 29, 2019 10:25 AM (fifty-four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

god this is like a parody of a millennial PC rewriting of the song that a boomer would come up with

All I Want For Christmas is You: Love, or Codependency?

It's Time to Stop Slut-Shaming Mommy for Kissing Santa Claus

How Deck the Halls Erases People Who Live In Single-Room Dwellings

"Mele Kalikimaka is a culturally appropriative way to say Merry Christmas to you"

fwiw, I always thought Simply Having a Wonderful Christmas Time sounded like a father in denial trying to enforce a fun atmosphere in a dysfunctional family

just something about the frenzied tone and pacing of it

imo all christmas songs are oppressive + offensive as it christmas itself being as how it celebrates the birth of a jewish heretic in whose names millions of jews were murdered + forcibly converted

Up on the housetop, reindeer paws
Here comes castle doctrine law
Down through the chimney, to his surprise
Papa put one between his eyes

you scumbag, you maggot
you old crumbly baguette

I forget, did we discuss the version where "what's in this drink" is answered "pomegranate La Croix"?

Pronounced pah-ma-GRAN-it la-CROY

Dude I respect the intent but there are three words there and two of them are not pronounced in an idiomatic fashion. Go back to the drawing board. Songwriting is not a new art and there are, like, standards.

lacroix, as in the band of sparkling drink, is pronounced la croy

Are there any Jewish anti-Jesus carols?

Like idk

"God rest ye merry gentlemen
Let nothing you dismay
A mediocre Hebrew boy
Was squeezed out yesterday"

Simply Having a Wonderful Christmas Time ... just something about the frenzied tone and pacing of it

... google doesn’t seem to know a song by this title. Are you really taking the extremely chill stoner ditty Wonderful Christmastime as frenzied?

One of my friends already rewrote this song in 2014:

https://www.facebook.com/orinj/videos/10152590373516309/

jim in v: uh ok but why? I see C R O I X and think "kwah" (because I studied French in my otherwise completely inadequate education).

I know that no one says "kroyx." Where does "croy" come from? The Caribbean island of St. Croix? Uh, okay. It makes approximately zero linguistic sense, but ok.

https://amp.insider.com/how-to-pronounce-lacroix-water-2016-9

It's pronounced "la croy" because it came from the upper midwest, where people pronounce "croix" as "croy"

Apparently it's a mashup of La Crosse and the St. Croix river, which is pronounced "Saint Croy"

but Mordy what about all the Xmas songs by Jews

False messiahs roasting on an open fire...

I'm dreaming of a frum Shabbos...

I see C R O I X and think "kwah" (because I studied French in my otherwise completely inadequate education).... It makes approximately zero linguistic sense, but ok.

Tell it to the residents of Des Plaines, IL.

but Mordy what about all the Xmas songs by Jews

quite a few jews involved in the gospels too

Maccabees nipping at your nose...

Silver bells, silver bells, it's bagel time in the deli...

In the stores some gentile's paying retail

I was pleasantly surprised that a discussion of this fuckin song came up at a party in Sept (whyyyy?) and two people started doing the "it's so raaapppeey" kneejerk attack and my friends H@ye5 and C1ndy actually criticized that view and the other two people seemed shocked cos nobody had ever challenged that bit of received wisdom before

still have never heard this song

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5Rbkcxiibw

and if you'd like somewhat less ambiguous but equally catchy ray charles abuse songs, heres one where he ends by threatening to bludgeon his wife to death with an axe handle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUX2E_3uxSY

Pronouncing lingerie as lonzheray makes zero linguistic sense too but that doesn't stop Americans. BTW I live in Atlanta, GA and I've never heard anyone pronounce the drink as anything but La Croy.

can't believe the nation that brought us Friedrich Neechy and Vincent Van Go pronounce "Croix" differently

Friedrich Neechy

Bless you!

This reminds me of the time I inadvertently whitesplained the fact that "There are a lot of hispanic people in Texas who pronounce their last names the anglicized way" to a coworker while somehow completely not remembering that he was Mexican-American himself and his last name was Hur-air-a

moments in white peopling

i have to resist telling people they're not pronouncing their (scottish) last names properly fairly often

completely not remembering that he was Mexican-American himself and his last name was Hur-air-a

lol I bet you his name was't "Hur-air-a", rather "Er-era"

I think you may have completely missed the point/punchline of that post

I did.

Fully on board making that Ray Charles song a new holiday classic, FTR.

Hey, Crystals, be afraid.

Also, I enjoy calling it "La Quoi" to fellow Minnesotans.

once worked with a dude that actually pronounced it with a hard "ex" on the end.

didn't make sense at all, as he was actually fairly well adjusted and an otherwise reasonable person.

TBH Van Go is equally close to the 'correct' Dutch pronunciation than the standard British Van Goff.

Uhm, no... Take it from this Dutch person: it's not. Van Goff - however wrong - is way closer than "Van Go".

Apparently the BBC actually recommends Van Gokh which I think is even closer to the Dutch pronunciation, at least based on dodgy online pronunciation resources I found.

"rhymes with Loch Lomond" is how Scottish writer Grant Morrison taught me to pronounce it in a Doctor Who comic in 1987

The BBC can't even pronounce the Dutch word 'van' right (which should be easy, but they didn't get it right w/ their most famous 'Van' person, Ruud *van* Nistelrooij (and the got the surname pretty ok! Which is so vexing), let alone Gogh. Make of that what you will.

xp That's not bad at all. Van Gogh rhymes w/ Loch.

Like a Arab etc

Anyway, I might take issue with the pronunciation of "La Croix" but I have been exposed to francophone pronunciations of "Pachelbel" and "Pinetrail" (by someone from France) over the past week and I'm not sure whether Americans have anything to worry about.

There’s nothing “wrong” with regional pronunciation changes, btw

OTM, which I think means that I'd be within my rights to pronounce "La Croix" like "la croix" if I ever have a reason to talk about it.

It’s within your rights to use the source-language pronunciation of a loanword, but you may get funny looks in the borrowing-language community.

'O Canada' every morning in school = years of conditioning in how to say 'la croix'.

i've never heard this song once in my entire life

Anyway, I might take issue with the pronunciation of "La Croix" but I have been exposed to francophone pronunciations of "Pachelbel" and "Pinetrail" (by someone from France) over the past week and I'm not sure whether Americans have anything to worry about.

'Tupperware' is my personal favourite:

https://forvo.com/search/Tupperware/fr/

Incidentally (re: 'Pinetrail'), a 'pine' is a dick.

people who ask for a 'Bom-BAR-dee-ey' beer in the pub

This conversation is not a holiday conversation.

if I could snap my fingers and have everything associated with this song erased from the planet I would

sorry John Legend

Sorry straight America, it's not a very charming song.

from here on out, everytime somebody says they've never heard the song I am posting the Ray Charles/Betty Carter YouTube. Their version is a good song! It is absolutely problematic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5Rbkcxiibw

The Times recommends this version with Ms Piggy ad Nureyev which the description calls "Miss Piggy Geting(sic) Lucky in the Steam Room"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EJ1SBAO1HU

also via the NYT story, here's a crazy detail about the song's role in the "inspiration of Al Qaeda":
https://qz.com/1491525/baby-its-cold-outside-and-the-rise-of-islamic-fundamentalism

“The dance hall convulsed to the tunes on the gramophone and was full of bounding feet and seductive legs,” Qutb wrote later. “Arms circled waists, lips met lips, chests met chests, and the atmosphere was full of passion.”

Wow @ "Tupperware"

That Ray Charles/Betty Carter version is actually a good example of the song being performed as a "playful" exchange between two equals, and not at all like she is being coerced or otherwise stuck on the weaker side of a power dynamic.

Love the German: Too-pah-Vaw-ray

that Ray Charles/Betty Carter rendition is wonderful, its a shame to discover that this song did 9/11

https://i.imgur.com/pi8ssLF.jpg

Holiday Song? Killy?

there should be more psychotic Christmas songs

city sidewalks, bloody sidewalks

this is Satan's big day

xxxp That meme would also work well with an iconic Duvall/Nicholson still from The Shining.

there should be more psychotic Christmas songs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz5kHC0g9HQ

Simply... having... a murderous Christmastime

Last Christmas
I cut out your heart

Jingle Hell

All I want for Christmas is your two front teeth

I fell for you last Christmas
When I saw you from afar
I'd like to cut your boobs off
And keep them in a jar.

https://images.genius.com/3b3335e86b69365e407ffae2370c161d.600x600x1.jpg

silent night, deadly night has nothing on that album cover

I saw Mommy disemboweling Santa Claus...

she didn't hear me creep down the stairs to take a peek
and now I'm really fucked up and I can't get back to sleep

I fixed #BabyItsColdOutside.
In this version she ignores his entreaties to stay and heads on out. Turns out there WERE no cabs to be had out there, it WAS up to her knees out there, and her frozen body is found the next day.

Everybody happy now?

— Just Bill (@WilliamAder) November 4, 2019

Ted Bundy possibly

xp No offense, I'm happy now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVz6TCT5Bjs

It's back, sped up and inverted. Feliz Navidad!

^That's from 2012... but I bet we will get a "clever" COVID-themed rewrite from someone this year.

I really can't stay
Please stay six feet away

^That's from 2012... but I bet we will get a "clever" COVID-themed rewrite from someone this year.

My money is on that family that did the pajama rap. I know the husband did his "hilarious" take a few years ago, but surely this is low hanging fruit for them.

D'oh! Saw news of candy cane vinyl with a link to this song, so thought it was a new release. Haven't been following them for years (obv).

Baby it's Cov'd Outside

fucker writes itself

Say what's in this drink?

Hydroxychloroquine

Is it me, or does this thread revive seem to come earlier every year?

Please pull down your mask (Why would you even ask?)
There’s no need to hide (It’s not about pride)
I’ll stay by your side (“...If I got pneumonia and died”?)

I know I won’t see you later
When I’m hooked up to a ventilator
(Both:) So, baby, let’s stay inside

stay two metres awaaay

or six feet (USA)

its not officially the holiday season until my facebook feed is filled with people who ride for Michael Jackson and TI busting out the handclap emojis to post about how THIS-SONG-IS-NOT-OK!

balls has the most otm post itt

eh, silly that this has become such a thing to have such an ardent take on.

Relitigate