Guns n Roses: Critical Rehab

Personally I think GnR were shit then and they're certainly shit now. Axl's self-righteous preening and posturing never appealed to me, and I could always get my fix of rock riffs from much more palatable sources (like say, Roth-era Van Halen....)

Err, no. I've always placed Guns 'n' Roses well above those other contemporaneous L.A. bands. They had so much going on in their sound: Van Halen/Johnny Thunders/Sex Pistols/T.S.O.L./The Damned/Aerosmith/'70s funk and disco/country-rock... and they incorporated all that REALLY well. The only thing that makes me cringe now is the lyrics, which are a little too by-the-numbers "badass" -- but the sound definitely was badass. Nothing on the radio back then sounded half as tough.

and weren't the Use Your Illusions completely forgettable?

No. UYI 1 rocks just as much as Appetite ("Perfect Crime," "Right Next Door to Hell," "Don't Damn Me," "Dead Horse"), even if it's not as consistent. There are a few duds on that album ("November Rain" isn't bad cuz it's a bad song, it's just REALLY POORLY ARRANGED), but overall I think people underrate it.

also i really REALLY want to fuck axl (the body not the person: i am not insane thank you)

Yes

"Wasn't Appetite for Destruction a mediocre Sunset Strip-metal album at best (filler/hit ratio laughably tilting toward the former term)"

No. It's a big, dumb, seedy, cartoonish, sleazy, hedonistic beast of an album. Great tunes lift it to a higher plateau. Admittedly some stand out more than the others, but it's filler-free. Who could fail to be moved by "Think About You"? Who could fail to be thrilled by Mr.Brownstone? I'm not awaiting their return with great interest, but the reason for their critical rehab is contained within this record. Don't see the need for revision, myself, it's always been good

1) Slayer was on the radio?
2) Slayer was tough?

I dunno though: I think context may have had something to do with Axl's appearance going over the way it seems to have done. My Weezer-fan coworker saw GnR at Summershine and though she doesn't like them said they were completely great. And I heard bootleg recordings of their New Year's shows from a year or two ago that were pretty great, even for a band I consider mainly a "this is great because these are mediocre times" band.

Which is to say: Slash's understanding of what made Johnny Thunders interesting is like Johnny Thunders minus Johnny Thunders: ditto his reading of late-seventies/early-eighties punk, ditto Axl's super-forced Manson "interest"/heroin dalliances/"controversial" lyrics.

All of which together makes for a fascinating popular figure though

The two Illusions were, of course, absolutely rubbish, but thankfully so completely and utterly bone-headedly preposterous and grandiose that history will always smile favourably on them. Twin double-albums, The Terminator, grand pianos, Bond themes, Get in the ring motherflipper: They'll always look great on paper however vile they might sound on the stereo.

What you said.

Regarding this "revisionist" thing: I didn't read a lot of rockcrit in the late '80s, aside from metal magazines, but the metal magazines (RIP, Circus) had immense respect for GNR -- much more so than for any other then-popular band (except maybe Metallica).

Now, see, I thought ILM was supposed to be against this kinda loaded-with-assumption, I-think-they-suck-therefore-they-suck-and-everybody-else-must-think-they-suck-too shit. You're getting into Amy Phillips/Pitchfork territory here. (Sorry for all the hyphens.)

sorry I get all evangelical abt. LP

Yeah, blame Patrin for that one.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to piss anyone off/lead folk on a G'n'R suck crusade. What I think I was trying to say was that I thought the two Illusions were rubbish, but so grand in scope that they were unforgettable. (I'll drop that 'of course' bit in future)

I am totally the kind of tart who thought ew, Guns n Roses, how awful when they first hit and now likes them. But then I had some kind of taste when they first hit and now I like anything. By about 1990 I thought "Sweet Child O'Mine" was brilliant and Appetite followed hotly on its heels.

count me out

But I like L.A. Guns better anyway, because they really are more of the druggie-degenerates I usta fear.

Mark I really really hope you only mean Axl c. '89, because otherwise this is about as "err?" as saying you wanna fuck Liz Taylor.

[silence]

that's what I thought

My response was going to be something like "?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?" but I think I'll just stick with what you said: I don't hear it, but if you do, more power to you. (I guess.)

(More PUNK in POISON????)

Axl's junkie-for-the-camera schtick sucks all the fun right out of the junkie-rock-star pose -- all that's less is dull romanticization of a figure that's only romantic in the hands of a really capable actor like Reed, or Thunders, or whoever else. Whereas Skid Row had all their ducks lined up. "Youth Gone Wild" sounds better now than most anything outta the GnR catalogue, and Sebastian Bach is a way funnier stage name than "Axl Rose." To say nothing of "W. Axl Rose," yeesh.

PS what does this "method not implemented" screen that comes up every so often when trying to post?

"Youth Gone Wild" is OK. It's the Steve Forbert of that sorta thing. It doesn't really do much musically; it's loud but kinda flaccid.

In "Talk Dirty To Me" alone, if nothing else. Unless you buy into punk being about a spirit instead of a sound or something like that. And even then, why G'n'R instead of Poison? [OT: What is this spirit that punk is always supposed to be about? Any time I hear it explained it always just sounds like basic principles of self-assertiveness that institutional authority figures prescribe to you when you're 10. Or else petty childish selfishness. Or some hybrid of the two. It's more interesting if it's a specific approach to sound.]

I don't think the Bon Jovi/country, Loverboy/disco, or Hysteria/experimentation connections really need explanation beyond a quick listen to side 2 of New Jersey, "Turn Me Loose", or "Rocket". Most of these bands weren't necessarily worth all that much (I don't intend to sit through a whole Poison album anytime soon) but neither was G'n'R AFAIC.

Welllllllllllllllllllllllllllll, it sorta sounds like it could be a Dictators song, albeit not a very good one. Most of the music historically defined as "punk" was not that sexist, though, unless we're talking about crap like Hatebreed.

"You know I call you, I call you on the telephone
I'm only hopin' that you're home
So I can hear you
When you say those words to me
And whisper so softly
I've gotta hear you
Cause baby we'll be..."

that's the real shit!

"You never act the way you should" -- Bret Michaels likes his girls slutty, but he knows that it's not the way they should act.

If some guy told me I wasn't acting the way I should, I'd fucking smack him. But it's entirely possible I'm not attuned enough.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that I consider fag-bashing a sexist act -- against men not acting the way they should.

Ah, but he doesn't say that!

(I meant no sarcasm with "It's entirely possible I'm not attuned enough" BTW.)

So how come the critical makeover stateside?

I always remember them being somewhat critically acclaimed back in the late-80's, early 90's (positive comparisions to the Stones and Dolls, Slash as a highly praised guitarist, considered to have made a "credible" power ballad, etc.), so I don't see this critical "makeover" yr talking aboot. The only reason they lost their critical backing after UYI was because Nevermind came out the next week. If anything, I think they've fallen out of favour with critics over the last 12 years because of Axl's Hughes-like disappearence for years, and Shields-like inability to create a follow-up album.

What I mean is that even if you can argue for more blatant examples like the Crue's "Girls Girls Girls" as not having explicitly sexist content within the lyrics themselves, mentally it's hard to separate the song from the images of going-to-seed Vince Neil ogling chicks doused in water.

But charges of sexism may be disingenuous coming from a man, so I'll say no more on the subject. Just throwing the idea out there.

More importantly, whatever your feelings about GnR's style/songs/media profile, the problem with comparing them to Bon Jovi, Loverboy and Poison is that those bands didn't/couldn't rock, and Guns 'N' Roses, at least on Appetite, did.

I remember GnR having a near universal appeal in 1988: Jane's Addiction fans, pop heads, Nietzsche-reading hipsters all loved them. As a highschool senior, I remember seeing a GnR tee shirt (on a metal girl in Madison, Wisconsin) that made me shudder: an illustration of a woman who's just been gang-raped (wasn't this the original cover art for Appetite?). But by the time I was a college freshman in D.C. the same year, I was having long drunk argumenents with new friends about which was better: Appetite or It Takes a Nation of Millions. Both were consensus picks in dorm rooms across the country.

I don't know that this is a defense of GnR using that image, but I'm almost completely sure it was a pre-existing work of art by Robert Williams that Axl picked for the album insert. I'm no expert, but a lot of Williams' stuff is similarly ugly in theme. There was contraversy at the time, and the image was pulled from subsequent pressings, I belive.

This may betray some of my cultural prejudices at the time, but the painting just screamed YAY RAPE! to me when I saw it connected to a heavy metal band. Now I don't know what it screams. I do remember being turned on by the metal girl wearing it...

Of the bands I listed BOC's the only one I really care about so I won't press the comparisons. (And Agents Of Fortune blows away Appetite while getting 17% of the press IMO - Does it rock as much? I don't know and don't know that I care.) All I wanted to say was that I don't think Guns'n'Roses was unique for an 80s hard rock band in terms of the breadth of their influences. I don't hear much other than bad Aerosmith.

Read this.

this is even funnier that that recording guy's journals! (except i guess it's not)

Granted, the tide of good press retreated almost as soon as Axl put out an album with bigoted lyrics, though the Use Your Illusion albums got pretty good reviews and sold well.

Again, where's the revisionism? There is definitely interest by the mainstream press to cover a band that sold tens of millions of records ten years ago, but that's a perfectly legitimate story when the context of what has happened publically to the band. Just giving this incarnation of GnR a lot of press is NOT revising the critical assessment of their music. If that's being done, I haven't seen it.

(I live in Montreal, and am from Boston, so I'm not coming at this from a European sensibility). All the coverage I see of them this in this day is how Axl has a band together made up of various odd parts, and he doesn't quite know what he wants to do with it (Industrial? Moby producing?). And before he did those live New Year's shows a few years back, all the talk was "Does he still have it? Is he really fat and bald now?" I don't think this is critical rehab (unless you consider 1993-now critical rehab for Michael Jackson).

I'm saying this from the topic question "So how come the critical makeover stateside?" doesn't make any sense, because they were always held pretty high in the press ("Sure Axl comes to the stage three hours late, but is there a better album intro than 'Welcome To The Jungle'?"), and someone else, since I posted, put up examples showing this.

Point taken, and I wasn't trying to confuse things. My statement just came from the fact that I personally don't see "GnR as genre synthesis" among their main strengths, although others have furthered that argument. I'd agree at best their style is largely a straight Aerosmith rip, maybe bringing in the Stones and Zep (the two bands Aerosmith was a rip of anyway).

I was trying to shift things toward "rock bands are supposed to rock; that's what GnR did and did well." It's fine to like the lite-weights you mentioned better, but there's a category in which they can't even compete with GnR. BOC did rock. I've not heard Agents (perhaps I'll have to pick it up), but as you've admitted you're comparing very different bands from different eras. Not that one can't do that; BOC just seems to be a random choice that doesn't really get to the heart of whatever's at issue here.

Side note: I came down on the side of "It Takes a Nation" in the "Appetite" vs. "It Takes a Nation" debate. Keep in mind, I had all sorts of weird debates in college, especially with the AV guys who listened to Bill Laswell nonstop and filed pot under "p" in the office. They hated L.L. Cool J's "Radio," the first CD I ever bought. Too minimal.

PS I see Steve Perry is coming back to the CP. I always liked him.

While I wasn't too impressed it did have 'Sweet Child of Mine' which in my opinion is classic.

BOC was chosen just because they strike me as a more interesting band in hard rock history who don't get nearly the same level of attention. That it seems like a random choice is part of the point.

I agree with you that GnR probably appealed to people's rock-conservative/ traditionalist instincts.

On the other hand, as much as I honestly don't want to prolong this, and I'm sure I'll be pushing my ILM cred into the negative numbers (oaf! rockist!)...

Genre synthesis has nothing to do with it. In no way are the two things mutually exclusive. Bon Jovi, Loverboy or Poison could not possibly rock. Not even in their dreams.

And country or pretty much any other pre- or non-rock genre, if pitched correctly and played by musicians with any sense of rhythmic interplay and proclivity for the hard stuff, can be integrated and made to, um, rock.

Hold on, examples: How about Fugazi's integration of dub and Gang of Four-derived funk? I'll probably get hanged for this (and their shtick certainly got old/repetitive quick), but how about Rage Against the Machine's integration of hip hop into Sab-style classic rock riffing? Dare I mention Soul Coughing smushing jazz, hip hop and avant material into music that definitely rocked? Can we go back and count Buffalo Springfield and its spinoffs as successful and rocking integration of country?

(I know these examples are all over the place.)

However dreadful you find the music any of the above-mentioned (I don't), in the physical/ rhythmic sense they all tear the roof off the mother.

Later I was on the school bus and a metaller recommended a tape to me - it was a bootleg of the Guns and Roses tape not yet released in New Zealand - with a label printed on orange tape from a labelling gun. Everybody thought they were fantastic - fantastic enough to make and distribute bootlegs of their tapes, which was very rare.

I saw the video for 'Sweet Child O' Mine' on TV yesterday. Axl Rose looked cool - it was before he ever wore bike shorts, obviously - and Izzy Stradlin definitely looked Johnny Thunders. I suppose you could say Keith Richards but that would be giving in to him. He was wearing a black jacket with thin lapels, dark aviator glasses, good cheekbones, and had longish black hair cut in the European style.

Numbers:

1) It just pains my Inner Hesher to hear a Loverboy>GnR formulation.

2) Either praise or attack on GnR based on their ability to combine genres seems beside the point to me.

3) "Genre synthesis," as I clumsily put it, does not preclude physically compelling music.

And with that I shut up. Please hold your applause.

didn't they cover it's so easy ?
can't remember.

"My Michelle" and "Mr Brownstone"...good heavens, those are dreadful songs

I think so, too, but not in the way you mean. They actually cause dread in me. I recoil in horror at the blatant misogyny, the filth. But isn't that what they want me to do? I don't mean to excuse it as morally acceptable, but it's emotionally affecting as hell. Appetite may not be a great record, and I'm not especially interested in the technique of the playing on it, but it's an honest record. It's honestly fucked up, and a little disturbing. It's not just a show. Axl comes off as a real person on that record -- not a pleasant one, but a real one all the same. And it's really something.

everything kenan says here = completely OTM. i don't know if GNR are the best metal band ever, but they're certainly the most INTERESTING one i can think of.

yeah!

I find this an odd concept. there was a brief period when everyone thought that GnR sucked, but that was, coincidentally, the period when everyone thought that Nirvana was good. around the time that knee-jerk reactions against rock stars died down-- around the time that critics stopped giving a free pass for celebrity to any musician who feigned modesty, in some sort of Everyman inversion of the "rock god" trope-- most critics went back to acknowledging GNR as one of the best bands left carrying the blues-based riff rock torch through the '80s.

and the idea of "Appetite" as a "filler" album of any sort is just too weird for me to cognitively process in any way that might yield a response.

oh wait, this thread is three years old. nevermind!

Guns n Roses were such a special band..Fuck all Van Halen and Slayer...
They're lookin' like shits with instruments, their music is too similar to other bands..nuthin' really excitin'...

haha

Haven't read the thread, and somebody has probably already pointed this out, but the assumptions behind it are pretty confused. For whatever it's worth, this is better than Sabbath or Slayer (and probably Zeppelin, and maybe Metallica) ever did in P&J:

The 1988 Pazz & Jop Critics Poll

Albums
26. Guns N' Roses: Appetite for Destruction (Geffen) 190 (14) *

Singles
3. Guns N' Roses: "Sweet Child o' Mine" (Geffen) 30
13. Guns N' Roses: "Welcome to the Jungle"/"Mr. Brownstone" (Geffen) 20

[They were written in about as "just another Sunset Strip hair metal band" for maybe six months in 1987, as I recall -- before the songs wound up on MTV and the radio, and the album started to sell. But to pretend "everybody" -- meaning critics -- disliked them back then is the real revisionism here. And right, metal mags kinda loved them from the git-go.)

Appetite was 26 out of 40. Led Zeppelin IV was 30 out of 30.

yeah my assumptions here were wrong

I have grown to really kinda love them as icons...still think Appetite has maybe three good songs

I'm just the opposite - Appetite (which I thought had three good songs the week it came out -- and "Mr. Brownstone" was one of them! -- though I grew to like most of the rest pretty quickly, and loved all of it within a few years) is my favorite rock album of the past quarter century, and I care about them less and less as human beings as time goes on. Haven't played either Use Your Illusion (which I always thought were pretty spotty) for years, and can't imagine when I will again, though I doubt I'll ever sell my copies. Have exactly ZERO interest in Chinese Democracy -- In fact, I kind of hope it doesn't come out in my lifetime, sincee if it does, somebody will probably want me to write about it, which means I'll have to have an opinion about it. (Still like both Lies and Spaghetti Incident a whole lot, though.)

This cassette didn't leave my walkman for years. I delivered a lot of papers while Axl was screeching about smack and porn.

wait, me and Chuck are looking at things from different angles? Unimaginable! :)

Did you get that new-ish book by their photographer, Chuck? It's fascinating stuff for a whole lot of reasons - the dude saved the setlists from pretty much all their gigs: it seems to be the case that they wrote pretty much all their stuff in one fast blur of activity before the Geffen signing, and, having exhausted that stuff by the end of Use Your Illusion, collapsed/threw in the towel (nb this is my reading, not what the book explicitly contends)

Nah, didn't get that one -- or if I did, it went right into the donation pile (which maybe it shouldn't have, judging from what you're saying, but that's the way I roll with 90% of rock books, and 99% of rock photo books, that the mailman brings.)

appetite is a fantastic record and eclipses by a long margin anything they coughed out afterwards. i don't think the argument that it has only three good songs can really stand up; every track is focused with good old fashioned guitar based hook. arguably one of the most iconic opening riffs in history, and the musical influences behind the record are extremely vital and channeled in ambitious and exciting ways.

I've always believed GnR stop writing top notch material when Izzy left the band, which was during the making of Use Your Illusion, I think.

I don't know if they promo'd out the book or not, I ordered a copy - it's called "Reckless Road" and the url for it is http://www.recklessroad.com/ - worth looking into, not beautifully written or anything but as a documentation of that before-it-went-completely-worldwide moment it's pretty great

but, important caveat probably, I'm not on anybody's book promo list so I don't see a lot of rock books photo or otherwise, and I may be easily impressed

I really, really like the Chinese Democracy tracks (whatever iteration of the "final" versions they may be) I have in my iPod. As I've said before, they sound exactly nothing like any previous Guns N' Roses work and a whole fuckin' lot like particularly hard-rockin' J-pop. If you stripped out Axl's vocals and replaced him with Ayumi Hamasaki, the songs would be just as awesome. I really hope the album comes out someday, and I hope it sounds like these six songs.

http://i27.tinypic.com/160zvuv.jpg

As I've said before, they sound exactly nothing like any previous Guns N' Roses work and a whole fuckin' lot like particularly hard-rockin' J-pop.

yeah this is a great call - they have that by-committee feel. (My friend Tom on Japanese pop in the eighties: "It's like a position paper about what popular music is like.") I happen to kind of like that - I thought "Better" was a wonderful song.

"For whatever it's worth, this is better than Sabbath or Slayer (and probably Zeppelin, and maybe Metallica) ever did in P&J"

Who gives a flying fuck? GnR areen't fit to do those band's laundry. The post above is correct, when Stradlin left the band, they were toast. I got that straight from Slash's autobiog, which I picked up in LAX. Pretty entertaining read.

i certainly wouldnt let slash do my laundry - maybe axl

Er, my post had nothing to do with how "good" those bands were (though I'd personally take GnR over Slayer or Metallica); it had to do with how much critics liked them, which was what the subject of this thread was to begin with. (And to my ears, they started going downhill as soon as Adler left.)

Phil's post makes those Chinese Democracy tracks sound interesting, maybe, though I've never really connected with J-Pop. And I just can't see going out of my way to actually track down the songs and hear them. If they somehow land in lap someday, maybe I'll listen to them and wind up liking them, who knows. (I've "heard" a couple of the supposed CD tracks, usually when somebody was all "you really really really need to listen to this," which just added a no-fun air of "important to have an opinion" obligation to an already dire situation.)

So when is somebody going to start a thread about Motley Crue revisionism? To me, they're the real dime-a-dozen hair-hack band who were widely acknowledged as such at the time, but over the decades have somehow turned "important", thanks to tabloid stuff I'll never have any interest in.

Sorry chuck, your're right, the thread's about their rep. with critics.

Crue did one good album, then really lost it. The same could definitely be said about GnR.

According to Slash, Adler made the rest of the band seem like the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. They had no choice but to let him go.

fuck that lies is great and the use yr illusions are pretty awzom in their own way

Izzy was GnR's tether to vintage Stone boogie.

The illusions blow

xpost

u blow... whores!

1st Crue album is pretty great - Chuck you gotta rep for "Live Wire," don'tcha? that's a terrific track - and I have affection for Shout at the Devil but yeah, I think Crue got big mainly by sticking around and maybe by being good live (I don't know - never saw 'em). But does anybody really say "they were a great band" as people do about GnR?

So when is somebody going to start a thread about Motley Crue revisionism? To me, they're the real dime-a-dozen hair-hack band who were widely acknowledged as such at the time, but over the decades have somehow turned "important", thanks to tabloid stuff I'll never have any interest in.

this is true-ish, yeah, but I think they're more infamous than important -- the tabloid stuff (and the justifiably popular tell-all book) probably helped keep their profile high during the years they were making flop comeback attempts and squabbling and doing horrible side projects. but it's not like anyone more than before is pretending that Dr. Feelgood is as good as Appetite, or that their other albums are by and large worth a shit. I think they just happen to be the one hair metal band with their shit together enough now to capitalize on nu-hair bands like Buckcherry and Hinder and do something like this "Cruefest" nonsense. (xpost, what John said)

omg the dirt is so good

illusion II taken as a separate entity from illusion I isn't a bad record really.
about half of it is obviously pointless but i'll stand up for the first 3 tracks, breakdown, and locomotive at least

the first crue album is indeed pretty good. 'live wire' is probably the purest hard rock statement they ever made. then they had a few more great singles over the years with 'looks that kill' springing specifically to mind. 'primal scream', a latter day number in terms of vince neil's first tenure with the band, was surprisingly excellent live.

but yeah, even the crue's better material doesn't come close to stacking up to GNR in their prime

"u blow... whores!"

You really got me good there, wow

ty ty

The first two Crüe albums are pretty damn good. The respect they're afforded twenty-five years past their (artistic, not commercial) peak, though, baffles me. That Red, White & Crue best-of they put out a few years ago was one of the most starkly bifurcated albums I've ever seen - one disc I'd like to listen to all the way through, and one disc I wouldn't listen to a single song from on a dare.

I bought the two Illusions discs and listened to them all the way through for the first time last year, and there are a hell of a lot of good, ambitious hard rock songs on there. If you go in looking for any trace of the band that made Appetite, you're an idiot. But taken on their own merits, they're some of the best mainstream rock of the early '90s (I would take the Illusions albums over Nevermind without blinking).

"Don't Cry" is tremendous

But much of the Illusions material was in the setlist before Appetite was even tracked! it's very much the same band, just with more money.

...which is why I'm recommending the photobook - that's how I learned that some of the big hits from Illusion I & II were as old as the band

That's true. Don't Cry is like the first song they did together. .

(I would take the Illusions albums over Nevermind without blinking).

Yeah, me too. Like I said above, I think they're really spotty, but that doesn't mean they don't have some good songs. And like I also said above, I still love Lies and Spaghetti Incident. But I still don't think much of that stuff touches Appetite, and the point of my Adler comment is that, when he left, the music turned way clunkier and more stiff -- it really lost its dance quotient, which was the first thing that set it apart for me.

Also, I don't hate Crue (I may actually even prefer their late '80s hits to their early '80s albums, matter of fact), and I'm not suggesting critics think they were on the level of GnR. I just think there were scores of better hair-metal bands out there, and I find it kind of depressing that their admittedly well-timed self-promotion efforts have been so successful with journalists who I can't imagine cared about the band in the first place.

Ron "Bumblefoot" Thal (Born September 25, 1969 in Brooklyn New York City, NY), is an American guitarist, songwriter and producer. He is currently a member of Guns N' Roses, playing co-lead guitar with Robin Finck

He got the name "Bumblefoot" from the bacterial infection, which he learned about while helping his wife review for her veterinary exams. Vigier Guitars later made Ron "The Vigier Bumblefoot Guitar", a custom guitar which is shaped like a foot, painted like a bumblebee and has decorative wings that extend from the body when activated by the tremolo bar. This was presented to Ron in January 1998 at the NAMM convention in Los Angeles.

Bumblefoot joined Guns N' Roses in mid-2006, replacing the departed Buckethead. He made his live debut with the band at the Hammerstein Ballroom in New York City on May 12, 2006. They have since toured Europe, North and Central America,Oceania, and Japan. It has been confirmed that Bumblefoot will also appear on the band's new album, Chinese Democracy, despite the fact that it has been in the process of recording since 1994, long before he joined. The album has no scheduled release date, but it has been confirmed that recording has been completed as of April 03, 2007.

If Use Your Illusion was a 45 minute album it would be great. Don't Damn Me, Civil War, those are some of their best songs.

There's just way too much of it, and some of the most egregious examples of filler ever. Also the fact that Nevermind came out around the same time didn't help.

xp (Adler leaving also corresponds, at least in my mind, with Axl's high register losing its edge. He just doesn't sing as gorgeously on the post-Appetite or at least post-Lies records. This really affects the ballads for me -- including "Don't Cry," which has never blown me away like the earlier ballads do.) (My favorite '90s GnR track, by far, is their cover of UK Subs' "Down on the Farm," on The Spaghetti Incident, fwiw.)

Since I was a little dude I've loved both debut's from the Crue and GnR, respectively. But for diff reasons. Appetite is a very historical album. It was modern and hip, yes, but the band really understood what made classic rock move. They knew their Johnny Thunders, Aerosmith, Stones, Chuck Berry, Eddie Cochran, etc.

TFRL, in contrast, is raw primitivism. Although it's trashy glam/punk, the album's quirks (that production is so buzz-saw cheap) make it feel like a private press record or heavy metal demo tape (which it kind of was, originally). It's one of those records that fans of fucked up music can appreciate. Appetite, was too good to be appreciated that way.

From Buckethead to Bumblefoot. You could have a game thinking of the next name for the slot. Brokendick? Baglady? (Let's get a woman in here!)

I would take the Illusions albums over Nevermind without blinking

that's a feasible enough parallel to draw since i have memories of listening to these records when they were fairly new in heavy rotation around exactly the same time

but nevermind has totally held up better for mine. the illusions seem to be forever tied to the bombast and self-aware rock posturing that characterised the band's shows around the time of the records' releases. axl's lyrics just seemed too intent on ramming home, to the point of overstating, the exclusiveness of his rockstar lifestyle in strangely pseudo-intellectual ways. we weren't dealing with somebody that people could really make a genuine connection with, but rather somebody whose stardom and public profile became a source of expression for the staging of bizarre and convoluted battles with personal and external demons, that no one else, let alone the listener, could get a grip on. i guess i'm thinking specifically of inter-song rants like that 'don't forget to call my lawyer...' spurt on 'you could be mine'. i mean, what the hell was all that about?

i guess, nevermind with its un-self conscious ability to tap into the hearts and souls of disenfranchised youth, made more of a tangible connection with the public, and when i listen to it today, i can still hear a lot of what made it so vital and relevant. i really think it's a timeless classic that is presently taking a temporary extended pause due to having been solidy overplayed throughout the entire 90s. but i still play it pretty regularly and find remnants of the spark that really kicked my ass all those years ago.

Side note: I shifted a lot of my love for both debut albums (Crue and GnR) to Hanoi Rocks' debut a few years back. I had never even heard the first HR album until I was 30! But holy crap. To me, it's the original link between classic rock, glam, heavy metal, bubblegum and punk. The Crue and GnR were obviously listening to Hanoi Rocks a ton.

yeah i bought some hanoi rocks stuff after GnR kept repping them. but it's a "the students have become the teachers" thing for me....appetite murders every hanoi record i've heard (so like three out of whatever HR records)

and, hey, just so you know, hanoi rocks have put out three pretty good albums in the last five years.

xpost

Yeah, considering Neill killed one of the members of Hanoi Rocks.

I just sent in a hair-metal "Essentials" thing (8 albums) to Spin last week, and started it off with Hanoi's Self Destruction Blues. I like all of that band's albums, but yeah, Appetite is way better. (Didn't include any Crue, Bon Jovi, or Skid Row, though I considered all of the above.)

what other bands were on the list?

this shoulda been. lost classik:

http://www.sleazeroxx.com/bands/vain/respect.jpg

Adler leaving also corresponds, at least in my mind, with Axl's high register losing its edge. He just doesn't sing as gorgeously on the post-Appetite or at least post-Lies records.

I'm glad you added the "in my mind" caveat, because I always chalked that difference up to the stories of Axl sitting backstage smoking like a chimney and drinking scotch on the Illusion tour and then cancelling a show at the last minute because he 'lost his voice.' I never woulda guessed that the guy playing drums behind him was a psychological factor.

Well, timewise, I meant. Didn't mean to imply causality. (His voice had already lost a lot by the time Illusion was recorded, though, so I doubt it happened on the tour supporting the album.)

what other bands

Def Lep, Poison, GnR, Cinderella, Kix, Warrant, Bang Tango. (I won't say which LPs -- that's a surprise.)

"what other bands were on the list?"

kix, cinderella, faster pussycat, um, bang tango, enuff znuff, tesla, and poison.

x-post!

Hanoi Rocks -- there was always something they didn't quite have on every album, getting in the way of listening to them repeatedly other than as an acquired taste. The only thing I still have is a double that was published as an anthology of their finest moments. It could have been boiled down to one long record. When they finally wound up with a producer -- Bob Ezrin -- who you think could have done something with them, the album that resulted wasn't very good. Then the guitarist was killed and they disintegrated.

xpost -- Well you should state what albums, at some point. How many people here d'ya think are going to actually buy a copy of Spin for another magful of lists?

was gonna say warrant. and forgot about def lep. and enuff znuff was just a grasping at straws.

xp I came real close to including the second Faster Pussycat album. (8 albums is hard! Wanted to get D.A.D. in there somewhere too, but no dice.)

>I just sent in a hair-metal "Essentials" thing (8 albums) to Spin last week

Good to see they're paying attention...I ran a "25 Essential Hair Metal Albums" feature in Metal Edge two issues ago.

as far as axl's chain-smoking, whiskey drinking, show cancelling tendencies go...

jason newsted confirmed such a story about axl in the behind the music feature on metallica i believe.

also, i've got those use your illusion live videos from a performance in tokyo around 1992 and axl's voice is horrendous throughout. he massacres 'sweet child of mine' with a screechy cat yowl that would make brian johnson cringe.

def leppard and cinderella would definitely make my cut. poison and warrant i am less fond of, but they're certainly quintessential examples. i pretty much missed the boat on kix and bang tango when i used to dig this hair metal stuff, but both bands certainly have/had their legion of followers.

and scott, your list is pretty balanced too

Cinderella kicked serious ass. I saw them on the club-only tour following Long Cold Winter. Man, the Black Crowes have nothing on them.

"25 Essential Hair Metal Albums"

Did you have to put some in there more than once?

Hanoi Rocks -- there was always something they didn't quite have on every album

I agree, save their debut. I've sampled other Hanoi Rocks albums since discovering that first one, and I've been bummed. All of them lack the quirky vibe of the first record. There are some truly twisted guitar solos and licks all over that thing. Plus, the production uses all kinds of reverb and echo in some extraordinary ways.

that second Cinderella album (long cold winter?) was about as solid as they come IIRC. I'm snagging that the next time I see it.

First Hanoi album is the best, I agree, likewise, they were great live the first 2 times I saw them, astonishingly so the first time. But, they lost whatever they had that made them special pretty quickly, it was quite sad to see at the time.

i guess i'm thinking specifically of inter-song rants like that 'don't forget to call my lawyer...' spurt on 'you could be mine'. i mean, what the hell was all that about?

What the hell was that about?

x-postx2

You'll also dig Cinderella's Heartbreak Station.

okay, this thread has done something strange to me. i'm now playing Quiet Riot III. wow, The Wild & The Young is power metal incarnate.

i was always fond of Oriental Beat by Hanoi Rocks. Might have been the first album I heard by them. It's a weird little record. There's all kinds of stuff going on stylistically.

woah QR III. that was a really dark period for quiet riot.

Spageddy Incident is the best GNR album because those pesky songwriting/personality problems don't get as much in the way and they've got less shaggy-dog-ish showcases for their tightness. Appetite has a fair amount of music (little of it boogie-oriented in the Stones sense, so what Izzy's influences have to do with it, IDK) that's exciting for adolescent boys (Paradise City still holds up, ok) and appropriately asbo lyrics to match, but Slash was kinda otm when he said he thought they made a pretty good motorhead record at best, and I'd rather get the musical fireworks from Poison, White Lion (speaking of Scandinavians), LA Guns, Warrant, Living Colour, maybe some Crue, all of whom attach them to actually fun rock 'n roll songs (often best in greatest hits form). Most of them are better-looking too. While I like Cinderella and Tesla a bunch, they're basically Beatles-influenced, hard-hitting southern rock bands.

I hear Sami Yaffa plays in some other band these days.

Meanwhile, Duff's book is about out and here's an excerpt about the early days.

That book is going to be so awesome.

i'd feel kind of ridiculous reading ANOTHER gnr book after the slash memoir and the uyi 33 1/3 but duff is a capable writer and most likely the most sane/trustworthy guy out of the band so i am down for that

I still have no interest in hearing UYI but is the 33.3 well-written and juicy enough about the band dynamics, rather than the songs, to shell out for?

it is a great and very entertaining book but it's very much about the album and that period in the band's history, so i'm not sure why you'd even ask whether you should read a book about an album you don't want to ever listen to (although the author himself amusingly doesn't go back and re-listen to UYI until the last chapter)

i mean there are now memoirs by 3 different ex-members of the band if you're into juicy inside scoops

the UYI book is excellent, especially for (a) context (explaining how it works alongside the before-the-revolution moment of fall '91) (b) debunking the Izzy Stradlin worship.

haha the anti-izzy bent of the book pissed me off so much

btw this thread has one of the worst premises in the history of ILM, fucking shameful

so i'm not sure why you'd even ask whether you should read a book about an album you don't want to ever listen to

'cos a bunch of the ones that I do have are more about the artist in general, or that period of their career, rather than a documentary of the recording, or a critical analysis of the songs. so I was asking if this happened to be one of the former. because I know they exist. based on having bought and read them. (at least two of the series are actually novellas that don't require even knowing that the album exists before reading. and the one of those I've bought [by the shameful OP btw lol] is the second-best 33.3 that I've read.)

I also have the Celine Dion one, and though it's been on the shelf waiting for 18 months, I don't plan to buy and listen to the album before I get around to it.

man I <3 Eric W. to bits but I had major problems with the UYI 33.3

such as? (i'm curious -- like i said i enjoyed it but there were definitely parts that pissed me off too)

a bunch of the ones that I do have are more about the artist in general, or that period of their career, rather than a documentary of the recording, or a critical analysis of the songs. so I was asking if this happened to be one of the former.

it's more the former than the latter. but much more about the band's place in the music industry/pop culture at the time and the axl cult of personality than band dynamics juice.

Is the Slash book any good? Because frankly, between him, Adler and Duff, Duff is the only one that seems to possess a modicum of modesty, a firm grasp of history and a penchant for introspection. He's totally the John Taylor of the group.

you're probably right about duff (which is why i will prob read it) but the Slash one is a pretty good read -- i'm sure the co-writer smoothed it over a lot but he kind of has a good dry sense of humor about some of the crazier stories and of course there are some pretty crazy stories. also slash has a pretty interesting life story beyond just the gnr stuff.

such as? (i'm curious -- like i said i enjoyed it but there were definitely parts that pissed me off too)

I would just have strongly preferred to have been reading about it from the perspective of somebody who loves GnR & will rep for their music. I like Carl's book on Celine even though he's not nuts about her music, but with GnR, the whole "I wouldn't normally listen to this" schtick just rankled me a lot. like, even though GnR were massive, they still to a certain extent represent a subculture, for better or worse. I don't want to hear the take of somebody who has no investment in that culture; the story doesn't have to be told by a fan, but I think for it to be told by a person who doesn't even like that kind of music is invariably going to leave out one of the most important parts of the story.

It's weird I mean I'm kinda defensive of this band even though I think their music is vastly overrated by the exact same people whose voices I'd prefer to hear if we're talking about it

aero, do you think "Appetite" is vastly overrated? Because I'm with you on "UYI" (obv.), but that first album is zeitgeist in the a bottle. Or something.

he's definitely irreverent about GNR in the book but to me it didn't come across as dismissive or superior -- UYI is more fun to talk about if you acknowledge its flaws and ridiculousness from the start, and if you're not constantly saying Appetite was the greatest thing ever and comparing it to that. also i didn't get a "i wouldn't normally listen to this" sense, if anything it was that he'd listened to it so much in the '90s that he could actually write the majority of the book from memory w/o relistening to it.

btw i apologize if my platform itt has become 'i will read any and all books about guns n roses and so should you'

i'll pass on adler's, though, it was depressing enough seeing him on celebrity rehab

wait doesn't he explicitly say he's never listened to the albums before writing the book?

no, he was definitely very familiar w/ the albums beforehand but only listened to them again while writing the last chapter.

if it WAS a total intellectual exercise of "let's see how much i can write 'about' an album without engaging with the album on any level" like the Celine book that would be total bullshit but don't even get me started on that

What's the gist with the UYI book and Izzy or his role in GNR?

mainly he just hates on all the songs w/ Izzy writing credits and thinks his Stones vibe was unwelcome

btw for your edification my 3 favorite things i learned from the Slash book: 1) he was given the nickname Slash by actor Seymour Cassel, 2) he was really disappointed when he met Alice Cooper and found out that Alice just used snakes as stage props and wasn't super into them like he was, 3) he owned a mountain lion named Curtis.

yeah, sorry, aero, I never got the impression that Weisbard was holding his nose.

also i get what you're saying about them being a subcult band to some extent but any sunset strip sleaze metal band that could also be a 10 year old suburban pennsylvania nerd's favorite band has graduated to the arena where a multiplicity of takes is probably not just appropriate but should be encouraged.

fyi I used to buy frogs scorpions etc at the same store in Lakewood where Slash got his snakes

the Frogs, Scorpions Et Cetera on Del Amo Boulevard!?!? get right outta town. do you know if Howard is still the manager over there?

I used to buy frogs scorpions etc at the same store in Lakewood where Slash got his snakes

The first sentence of the third chapter of your memoir.

frogbs, scorpions, etc

looking forward to the "steven tyler's frogpit" solo album btw

definitely wanna read the duff book, and i've stayed away from the other two autobios even though i used to be a diehard gunshead. i haven't read the UYI book but i think i'd like it -- while i have feelings of affection for the music and the group, i'm as critical/mocking of their flaws as anyone.

i watched the live stream of this year's rock in rio (w/ axl + "new" guns). interesting experience. following the hashtags was also a telling experience.

(the hashtaggers were particularly critical about axl's weight gain. i didn't think he looked too bad for a guy about to turn 50.)

The first sentence of the third chapter of your memoir.

actually it's my entire memoir, sorta jumped the gun by posting it here

the Frogs, Scorpions Et Cetera on Del Amo Boulevard!?!? get right outta town. do you know if Howard is still the manager over there?

no loyd's pets and reptiles. now closed evidently but it was the best place if frogs scorpions etc were yr deal

Loyd's are a bunch of fucking bums, Howard just told me to post

At the time Weisbard surprised me by not relating the story of Axl, after sending champagne and roses, showed up backstage at a Pet Shop Boys show in 1991.

He proceeds to rave about the show -- "that was so cool, `My October Symphony,' when tye dont' even sing" -- and say that liking them is becoming a shared secret in the world. "I phone dup the singer of Nine Inch Nails and I said "'What's that you're listening to?" and he said, "'Oh, er, it's the Pet Shop boys.'" He tells me he plays Behaviour in the car and his friends say, 'What are you trying to make me like NOW...?"

Then he tells me that there's something in common between "My October Symphony" and this song he's struggling with in the studio at the moment, a song called "November Rain."

Howard is bummed that Slash didn't recognize him when he came in for feeder mice

is it overreaching to make a "thing" of how many gay artists axl is a huge fan of (psb, freddie mercury, elton john)? i remember an interview where he said his classmates in the '70s made fun of him for liking the stones because they were "considered fags" at that point.

i tend to think that whole "i'm ineruditely homophobic yet deeply enamoured and respectful of gay icons like elton john and freddy mercury" is just a fragment of a broader dichotomy that sums up w. axl rose. i mean, the guy is inscrutable and ridiculous on just about every front.

He's an outsider just like them

Or was when he stepped off the Greyhound

i mean, the guy is inscrutable and ridiculous on just about every front.

well, yes, but.

to me there's always been a sense of axl diffusing his introspecive, thoughtful side ("estranged", "november rain") with a more small-minded, belligerent approach ("one in a million", "back off bitch"). i also sense a bit of a running theme throughout the cavalier illusion records of a "small town white boy" trying to reconcile himself with the opportunistic and complex world that fame and rock stardom brings.

and of course you also hear the byproducts of fame and rock stardom on those albums, ie. a right-of-way to channel inner thoughts and insecurities in a bloated and self-important manner.

i think the mystery of axl stems from his curious ability to offset his predominantly selfish and reckless personality with atypical bouts of tenderness and complex thinking.

my favorite bit of trivia about Axl is that one of his favorite songs to get 'fired up' to was WASP's "I Wanna Be Somebody". But I think that Axl is looooooong gone.

Hmm, where to put this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XUKRZGVW6Q

In which Axl reveals that the original cover of "Appetite" was intended to be a photograph of the Challenger explosion (!!!!!!).

So it went from Challenger explosion -> robot rape scene -> awesome skull cross?

i heart bumblefoot

http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/chi-guns-roses-at-allstate-arena-pg,0,2045814.photogallery

Caption on this one:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/chi-guns-roses-at-allstate-arena-pg,0,2045814.photogallery?index=chi-ct-roses0120111115230310

fuck, Viacom asserted copyright on that Axl interview with a quickness. can someone summarize?

(the Trib fixed the caption, which when I posted had said the band name was "Enough is Enough.")

He said the rant in "Get In The Ring" was Duff's idea because there was a space in the song.

I don't remember the rest.

there was an uncomfortable amount of ass-licking in that interview.

Short form: original idea for the cover was the Challenger explosion; only reason they toured in '92 was because their manager booked them without his consent and there was some concern that leaving the group idle would lead to Slash OD'ing on heroin; Tommy seems to be, maybe, the band- leader, or at least Axl's closest band member?; reason Axl goes on so late often is just because things are going wrong and they need time to work them out, whatever that means. Also, Axl thinks people really like Chinese Democracy and its legacy is a work in progress.

"Sweet Child O' Mine" was written in response to someone "doing donuts."

They were too lame to ask him about One In A Million.

stinson's official title in gnr is 'musical director'

i have a copy of Chinese Democracy on vinyl.

i mostly use it as a tray to serve hors d'oeuvres off of

someday i'm going to talk into a Best Buy that's selling it on vinyl for 50 cents each, and i'm going to buy them all and build a great wall of Chinese Democracy

Is it still a Best Buy exclusive?

Caption on this one:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/chi-guns-roses-at-allstate-arena-pg,0,2045814.photogallery?index=chi-ct-roses0120111115230310

― Love stream of mic checking (Eazy), Wednesday, November 16, 2011 11:06 AM (2 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

^this dude peed in Madonna iirc

in madonna?

Yes.

http://books.google.com/books?id=LTJFsGNJwyYC&lpg=PP1&dq=private%20parts%20stern&pg=PA291#v=onepage&q&f=false

Well:

To: The Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame, Guns N' Roses Fans and Whom It May Concern,

When the nominations for the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame were first announced I had mixed emotions but, in an effort to be positive, wanting to make the most of things for the fans and with their enthusiasm, I was honored, excited and hoped that somehow this would be a good thing. Of course I realized as things stood, if Guns N' Roses were to be inducted it'd be somewhat of a complicated or awkward situation.

Since then we've listened to fans, talked with members of the board of the Hall Of Fame, communicated with and read various public comments and jabs from former members of Guns N' Roses, had discussions with the president of the Hall Of Fame, read various press (some legit, some contrived) and read other artists' comments weighing in publicly on Guns and the Hall with their thoughts.

Under the circumstances I feel we've been polite, courteous, and open to an amicable solution in our efforts to work something out. Taking into consideration the history of Guns N' Roses, those who plan to attend along with those the Hall for reasons of their own, have chosen to include in "our" induction (that for the record are decisions I don't agree with, support or feel the Hall has any right to make), and how (albeit no easy task) those involved with the Hall have handled things... no offense meant to anyone but the Hall Of Fame Induction Ceremony doesn't appear to be somewhere I'm actually wanted or respected.

For the record, I would not begrudge anyone from Guns their accomplishments or recognition for such. Neither I or anyone in my camp has made any requests or demands of the Hall Of Fame. It's their show not mine.

That said, I won't be attending The Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame Induction 2012 Ceremony and I respectfully decline my induction as a member of Guns N' Roses to the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame.

I strongly request that I not be inducted in absentia and please know that no one is authorized nor may anyone be permitted to accept any induction for me or speak on my behalf. Neither former members, label representatives nor the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame should imply whether directly, indirectly or by omission that I am included in any purported induction of "Guns N' Roses".

This decision is personal. This letter is to help clarify things from my and my camp's perspective. Neither is meant to offend, attack or condemn. Though unfortunately I'm sure there will be those who take offense (God knows how long I'll have to contend with the fallout), I certainly don't intend to disappoint anyone, especially the fans, with this decision. Since the announcement of the nomination we've actively sought out a solution to what, with all things considered, appears to be a no win, at least for me, "damned if I do, damned if I don't" scenario all the way around.

In regard to a reunion of any kind of either the Appetite or Illusion lineups, I've publicly made myself more than clear. Nothing's changed.

The only reason, at this point, under the circumstances, in my opinion whether under the guise of "for the fans" or whatever justification of the moment, for anyone to continue to ask, suggest or demand a reunion are misguided attempts to distract from our efforts with our current lineup of myself, Dizzy Reed, Tommy Stinson, Frank Ferrer, Richard Fortus, Chris Pitman, Ron "Bumblefoot" Thal and DJ Ashba.

Izzy came out with us a few times back in '06 and I invited him to join us at our LA Forum show last year. Steven was at our show at the Hard Rock, later in '06 in Las Vegas, where I invited him to our after-party and was rewarded with his subsequent interviews filled with reunion lies. Lesson learned. Duff joined us in 2010 and again in '11 along with his band, Loaded, opening in Seattle and Vancouver. For me, with the exception of Izzy or Duff joining us on stage if they were so inclined somewhere in the future for a song or two, that's enough.

There's a seemingly endless amount of revisionism and fantasies out there for the sake of self-promotion and business opportunities masking the actual realities. Until every single one of those generating from or originating with the earlier lineups has been brought out in the light, there isn't room to consider a conversation let alone a reunion.

Maybe if it were you it'd be different. Maybe you'd do it for this reason or that. Peace, whatever. I love our band now. We're there for each other when the going get's rough. We love our fans and work to give them every ounce of energy and heart we can.

So let sleeping dogs lie or lying dogs sleep or whatever. Time to move on. People get divorced. Life doesn't owe you your own personal happy ending especially at another's, or in this case several others', expense.

But hey if ya gotta then maybe we can get the "no show, grandstanding, publicity stunt, disrespectful, he doesn't care about the fans" crap out of the way as quickly as we can and let's move on. No one's taking the ball and going home. Don't get it twisted. For more than a decade and a half we've endured the double standards, the greed of this industry and the ever present seemingly limitless supply of wannabes and unscrupulous, irresponsible media types. Not to imply anything in this particular circumstance, but from my perspective in regard to both the Hall and a reunion, the ball's never been in our court.

In closing, regardless of this decision and as hard to believe or as ironic as it may seem, I'd like to sincerely thank the board for their nomination and their votes for Guns' induction. More importantly I'd like to thank the fans for being there over the years, making any success we've had possible and for enjoying and supporting Guns N' Roses music.

I wish the Hall a great show, congratulations to all the other artists being inducted and to our fans we look forward to seeing you on tour!!

Sincerely,

Axl Rose

P.S. RIP Armand, Long Live ABC III

when i saw this thread I thought "Critical Rehab" was the name of a new album?

Life doesn't owe you your own personal happy ending
Oh yes it does, Axl Rose!

oh man i'm really torn between Axl being a huge, whining baby and someone actually finally giving something other than lip service to the "fuck the Hall of Fame" thing. not that is a huge snub or w/e, but still an Axl-less GnR exhibit will be really lol.

So basically Axl says he isn't trying to tell the R'n'RHoF what to do, but really he's trying to tell the R'n'RHoF what to do.
Or in other words, passive aggressive Axl is passive aggressive.

xp it's like someone finally took a stand against environmental pollution, but unfortunately it was Hitler.

lol snoball

Axl's camp.

once again, axl makes it all about axl.

xp He's quite twee nowadays as well.

crossing my fingers so hard for the induction of everybody in gnr except axl

please please please please please

I'll be summering at Camp Axl. Let y'all know what the canoeing is like.

So if I'm reading this correctly, he's taking himself out of the HoF discussion because they wanted to include band members that Axl didn't want included.

Is that the implication or am I imagining it?

That's exactly what Axl is saying.

With a side order of...
http://d.awesomemyspacecomments.com/5/4f023b110325d.jpg

ie Slash, no?

yeah, that's exactly the implication. he figures inducting izzy and duff should be "enough" of a nod to the past, if such is required, but he refuses to participate if they're gonna induct slash & steve. fuckhead.

Basically Slash, yes. Although I'm pretty sure Axl doesn't want Buckethead there either.

I hope that Dizzy Reed, Tommy Stinson, Frank Ferrer, Richard Fortus, Chris Pitman, Ron "Bumblefoot" Thal and DJ Ashba all appreciate what axl is doing for them.

They will. Until he fires each one of them.

Bumblefoot can be very appreciative when he wants to be

He's been pulling this shit for long enough for me to just roll my eyes and go, ugh whatever dude.

But it still just irritates the shit out of me. Does he really think that anyone's buying his new albums off the 'awesomeness' of what he's done SINCE Slash and Duff and Izzy and Steve left the band? That everyone who buys his new garbage isn't hoping that he's suddenly not crazy and doesn't suck anymore, LIKE HE USED TO NOT SUCK?

again, I shouldn't even bother but seriously, fuck him in the eye. Douchecanoe.

SAVE TOMMY STINSON

lol 'albums'

would be rad if the post-induction jam was just Steven Adler and DJ Ashba.

judging by his stint on celebrity rehab, not sure adler could even play drums anymore :(

kinda feeling axl on this one

i refuse to accept that

so what is the argument in favor of his stance, out of curiosity? not trolling, genuinely asking.

i'm not really in favor of his reasoning, because i think it would be just as stupid to leave Slash and the other guys out of the induction ceremony, but i'm all for a reasonably big name shrugging off induction in a stupid institution anyway

I predict a similar letter next year from Courtney regarding Nirvana's induction.

oh okay, I wasn't thinking about the whole HoF is nonsense who cares kinda angle. Fair enough.

but it's not an "i don't care about the HOF" stance. it's a "fuck you, slash, i'm bigger than any of this" stance. nothing admirable about it on any level.

I don't think he's saying "induct izzy and duff, fuck slash" at all - he seems to be saying that he'd be happy to be inducted if they included EVERYONE who's been in G'n'R from Live Like A Sucide up until the present day.

The line about Izzy and Duff refers to peoples' wishes for an Appetite-era reunion at the RNRHOF ceremony or whatever - he's saying that's never going to happen, but ppl who actually come out to GnR gigs are welcome to be delighted if any past members ever get up and guest, and he is equally going to be happy if those two ever do, and doesn't really expect anyone else would.

if Axl had actually gone it'd be a zoo -- at least now the other guys can go and have a really fun night together, hopefully get a good guest singer onstage for the jam session.

hopefully get a good guest singer onstage for the jam session.

have you ever considered writing horror stories

oh look it's the guy who started this thread and its stupid premise nobody agrees with

I love that Axl uses the phrase "don't get it twisted."

oh look it's the guy who started this thread and its stupid premise nobody agrees with

great post

Dude, I bought a Black 'n' Blue and a Badlands album based on thinking somehow I could trust your critical opinion about Guns 'n' Roses.

lol I would still rep for the Badlands album over Appetite but I'd be more inclined to say "this is my personal issue" now

I don't think he's saying "induct izzy and duff, fuck slash" at all - he seems to be saying that he'd be happy to be inducted if they included EVERYONE who's been in G'n'R from Live Like A Sucide up until the present day.

― ┗|∵|┓ (sic), Wednesday, April 11, 2012 7:47 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

thats how i read it too

does anyone really want to see Matt Sorum in the hall of fame though

makes u think

call him by his proper name, That Matt Fucker From The Cult

we should def recognize matt for his fine work on the y kant tori read lp

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_8Lk7-UkV9BI/S4GfT6g69pI/AAAAAAAABrw/tOxF8OC0LJ8/s1600/Y_Kant_Tori_Read_Promo_Picture.jpg

What the Jesus

at least now the other guys can go and have a really fun night together, hopefully get a good guest singer onstage for the jam session.

would love to see almost anybody front gnr @ the hall of fame show. scott weiland, alanis morissette, morley safer, anybody. mostly just so i could imagine axl losing his shit about it.

Lil B, Karen O, Jay-Z, Death Grips, anyone.

Get David Lee Roth in there.

would pay to see that. or death grips.

re y kant tori read: loving dee snider's mom in the back

that's matt sorum

yeah

It's like they're one-upping

http://static.rateyourmusic.com/album_images/da9a993d628e93812df2e025d9e2403c/14399.jpg

I can't decide if That Matt Fucker From The Cult* (*copyright Sic) looks better or worse with his non-botoxed face and actual hairline

christ I hate him

I guess I have to say better? Because ugh

http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp201/sharonjoy666/mattfucker.jpg

http://video.news.rin.ru/eng/photos/789.jpg

hey, ladies

nyagggh

Brought a photo of Sting to the clinic.

ha

http://luxedb.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Shrunken-Apple-Heads.jpg

blue shirt matt is starting to look like jocelyn wildenstein.

It looks like he glued chunks of hair to his scalp almost at random.

(*copyright Sic)

copyright bigtime Hollywood movie score dude C1int Manse11, in an NME Christmas issue pub quiz circa 1991. "We give Clint the point, even though "Fucker" isn't strictly his surname."

It's always stuck with me, fondly.

grateful that you could share that gift with us tbh

i thought it was a "baptiss blacktick" grab

uh

http://cdn.mattsorum.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/tank-portrait1.jpg

in case you wanted to, you know, wear me

I think the guys Axl didn't want to see inducted are more likely to be Adler and Sorum than Slash. But this is all about Axl not wanting to deal with the pressure of the situation, not whom they are or aren't inducting.

Basically Slash, yes. Although I'm pretty sure Axl doesn't want Buckethead there either.

― they do do doo doo sandwiches (snoball), Wednesday, April 11, 2012 9:23 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Nah, he loves Buckethead and begged him to come back to the band over and over. He did screw him out of writing credit for a song on Chinese Democracy though.

I guess it just stuck out to me that Axl seemed to not want to name Slash in that letter like he's Voldemort or something...seemed like a lot of fancy footwork to not say his name, yknow?

yeah, that was my read.

nuGNR released an official band photo today

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/5186/57558842565755746080719.jpg

yipes

all we are asking is for our rightfully earned place in the rock and roll hall of fame

and maybe for somebody to launder tommy's ensemble

I'm imagining Alanis Morissette fronting GNR and singing "Live and Let Die" at the RnR HOF ...

nuGNR look eager to talk about fluttershy and rainbow dash.

which one of those clowns is Tommy Stinson?

RRHOF can do without Guns'n'Roses. Overrated band.

^^ Staff photo from new Williamsburg artisanal cheese shop.

Tommy is far left.

That DJ Ashba guitarist, third from left, basically looks like Buckethead naturally.

He looks like both Mick Mars and Mystery.

I mean what the fuck is wrong with people.

From Rocket Queen to hot pocket queens.

When did Tommy Stinson get cast as Wolverine?

I mean what the fuck is wrong with people.

what's wrong with Tommy Stinson. Jesus.

does this band really require 8 people?

The Polyphonic Roses

what does the jacket worn by the poor man's Izzy Stradlin say?

8 seems pretty small for post-Illusion GNR, tbh. no backup singers or horn section!

yeah but backup singers and orchestra were never part of the core band despite the jokes about bloat

yeah, but i'm just saying people are acting like 8 people onstage for a GNR show is a lot. even on the UYI tour the core band was 6 people w/ Dizzy.

I think we all agree that Gilby Clarke should be in the Hall of Fame.

Fuck, I mean, the real crime is that Tracii Guns appears to be getting shafted here.

I'm totally fine with anyone telling the rock'n'roll hall of fame to go fuck themselves, even Axl Rose.

he totally didn't, though! he respectfully declined!

Will there be a moment of silence for Ole Beich and any other human wreckage they have left in their wake?

what does the jacket worn by the poor man's Izzy Stradlin say?

It looks like it says GENERAL AMISH but that can't be right.

He politely told them to go fuck themselves, sd. Strongly demanding his name not come up is totally a fuck you whether it's written diplomatically.

They should ignore the late '80s/early '90s for a while, and focus on adored unheralded '70s acts for a bit (cheap trick, chicago, styx, blah fucking blah) until Green Day is eligible. Once Green Day is in, every conflicted "keepin it real" band of my childhood will feel their nod is overdue.

oh my god I just realized

one day, Limp Bizkit is going to be in the HOF, aren't they

I realize Axl would happily be there singing about Patience if they'd let his merry band of hacks play instead of the old squad, though.

xpost i dunno hard rock has to wait a while. Kiss wasn't an immediate induction and they've actually maintained a high profile since their glory days.

looks like "General Altruism" to me.

This is from lol CRACKED.com, but the dude makes a good case for The Cars, Jethro Tull, Kate Bush, Peter Gabriel and Jeff Lynne/ELO. I think The Cars and ELO certainly should be in there.

one day, Limp Bizkit is going to be in the HOF, aren't they

― an independent online phenomenon (DJP), Thursday, April 12, 2012 11:13 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

oh c'mon, definitely not. i mean Rush isn't in there, sales are not the only barometer, bands w/ a fraction of their sales like the White Stripes will get in first.

Rush, Blue Oyster Cult, Yes, Deep Purple, Kiss

there are some weird omissions. those bands were massive. And except for Kiss, they were awesome.

Alice Cooper only got in last year, as far as hard rock clowns go. Also by the time Limp Bizkit could be in no one will give a fuck about this thing.

lol wait Kiss aren't even yet? For some reason I thought they'd slipped in.

I just can't imagine nu-metal shit getting in there.

Is there a Stairway to Heaven of nu-metal?

HOF wiki has some stuff about Bob Welch not being included in Fleetwood Mac's induction along w/ founding members and Rumors era members that does make me wonder exactly how the HOF decides how to handle bands w/ lots of lineup changes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_n_Roll_hall_of_Fame#Fleetwood_Mac_.26_Bob_Welch

i mean Rush isn't in there, sales are not the only barometer, bands w/ a fraction of their sales like the White Stripes will get in first.

I would argue that Rush deserves to be there more than RHCP. And I don't even like Rush! My feeling is if the Chili Peppers can get in, anyone can.

xpost they figure out who matters and then figure who the people who matter are comfortable spending time on stage with.

re: bizkit, Alice Cooper has been eligible since '94 and got in in 2011 - the guy behind "I'm Eighteen" & "School's Out" who's last gold album was twenty years after his first. Limp has "Nookie" & "Break Stuff" and their last gold record came six years after their first. They won't be eligible until 2022, and unless Cash Money gives them a bonafide comeback, Rock'n'Roll probably has to matter past 2050 for Fred to go "hell yeah" at the event. Plus they'll probably have handed the ceremony to Ryan Schrieber by then and I can't see him letting that happen.

Chili Peppers are huge, though, easily one of the top 5 most inevitable inductions of the 90s/00s alt rock era

pointing out that bands who deserve to be in the HOF aren't actually in it isn't a strong argument against a band that shouldn't be in the HOF making it in

I mean, I do take the point and you're all probably right, and yet I can totally see voters going "you know what, in retrospect Limp Bizkit were IMPORTANT, in they go; fuck you, Rush"

"you know what, in retrospect Limp Bizkit were IMPORTANT, in they go; fuck you, Rush"

this would make sense if the stones were inducted for altamont

GNR is the only hair metal band in the HOF. if Crue were in there, i'd see Bizkit having a shot.

First post on thread aside, g'n'r has always been the exception to the rule. My 1992 rolling stone album guide gives appetite five stars! Granted, Kix has a 4 and a half (Long may you run, JD Considine).

plus these things are run by rock mag people, and G'n'R sold rock mag covers even when they were off the map pre-chinese democracy.

yeah can i just say once again how ridiculously rong the idea behind this thread is

haha scrolling through the acts in the HOF, the first one that made me go "wait, REALLY?" was... The Lovin' Spoonful

yeah. note that Tha Spoonful was inducted about 10 years after eligibility -- i think we're gonna see a lot of marginal 60s/70s acts that hadn't made the cut before get in before any 90s bands lower on the totem pole than, say, Smashing Pumpkins

My only HoF hobby-horse was the Dave Clark Five. Beyond that, idk

Weird if Tommy Stinson went into the HoF as a GNR member. I mean, I dunno if the Mats would ever have a chance at getting in, but still. smdh

Upcoming bands who will probably slide in asap:

Green Day
Nirvana
Pearl Jam
Foo Fighters

after that, i dunno

i don't think the Foos are a given. maybe the Pumpkins, maybe Soundgarden or AIC?

the Velvet Underground and Elvis Costello got in, so maybe some sub-platinum types like Sonic Youth have a shot.

Kid Rock has a much higher likelihood of induction than Bizkit, i will say

Foos are a given for all the classic rock ass Dave kisses. Plus after Nirvana in 2014, Green Day in 2015 and Pearl Jam in 2016, they'll be hungry for another rock headliner, assuming we're not all dead.

The Lovin' Spoonful really is one of the great 60s bands though; I think they would have been even bigger if their name didn't make people so uncomfortable

Dave Marsh sez:

Kiss is not a great band, Kiss was never a great band, Kiss never will be a great band, and I have done my share to keep them off the ballot.

Dave's right, but fuck the HoF anyway.

surprise induction for London After Midnight

clearly Collective Soul has to go in at some point

I really believe that GNR (Appetite lineup) belongs in there just as much as the Replacements. Every other hair metal band (Kix, Trixter, White Lion, Great White, Poison, Drivin'n'Cryin, Extreme, etc,etc.) isn't even in the same league and definitely don't belong. The only possible exception is Def Leppard, who probably shouldn't be lumped in with all that other crap.

One of the few '80s college rock bands I think is an eventual guarantee is dun-duh-DUHHHH The Cure.

somehow i think Depeche would get in before The Cure.

keyboards over guitars, i think not

I see your point, and I don't think Kix would have any reason to get in either, but did you have to put them next to Trixter?

xps

The Cure don't have keyboards?

Depeche Mode are probably more seen as only having keyboards, or at least prominently having them.

sd, are you really going to make me explain to you how depeche can easily be perceived as more of a keyboard band than the cure by the kind of people who decide these things

they should just do a "pander to DJP" year where they induct Bauhaus, Depeche Mode, The Cure, Siouxsie & the Banshees and The Smiths

Dave Marsh sez:

Kiss is not a great band, Kiss was never a great band, Kiss never will be a great band, and I have done my share to keep them off the ballot.

^based on some of the bands they've inducted, I'm not quite sure if being "great" is a prerequisite.

Bauhaus is never getting in, Siouxsie at least has gender tokenism on her side, Depeche after the cure, and The Smiths are kind of an curiosity for me. They've got plenty of subcultural immortality, but unlike the cure never had a pop moment stateside.

I could almost see the Smiths getting in on the basis of How Soon Is Now alone.

obviously "great" is a subjective term. Probably influence is going to be a bigger determining factor.

You're overanalyzing my post. What i really meant to say is that the Hall of Fame sucks balls, as do losers like Dave Marsh

the list of hitless-in-america, nerd cult inductees is pretty short and sets the bar high: Velvets, Ramones, Leonard Cohen, The Stooges, Tom Waits

losers like Dave Marsh

Who's to say he didn't also vote against marginal inductees like RHCP? And being a massive MC5 fan, he obviously doesn't have enough pull to get them into the HoF.

my list should either have laura nyro thrown in or leonard cohen taken out

Laura Nyro is in this year

Who's to say he didn't also vote against marginal inductees like RHCP? And being a massive MC5 fan, he obviously doesn't have enough pull to get them into the HoF.

― Dancing with Mr. T (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Thursday, April 12, 2012 12:03 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

He's a putz

yeah, my point is either Nyro's another hitless-in-america nerd cult inductee or the writer of big hits for others, in which case cohen (and maybe waits) shouldn't be on my list either.

part of the reason I think the cure is a lock is a) they had some top 20 hits, b) they represent a whole wing of critically repsected music and c) they have been a successful arena rock band for decades

there are plenty of bands who've pulled off two of the three and been ignored, but can't think of many who hit all three

dave marsh otm for once

OTM, but still a putz.

you're not wrong about The Cure and if i'd known they were already nominated i would've been less skeptical when you brought them up. i just wonder how really enthusiastic the US rock establishment is about them -- did they ever get 4 stars or even a lead review in Rolling Stone for a new album?

yeah, Wish.

I think even Show got a lead review, split with the Prince best-of.

wish, huh? we'd all agree this is their finest hour, no?

haha god I can't remember shit from my last mid-term but a page from rolling stone in 1993 comes right to the surface

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/albumreviews/show-19931014

the art for this had the two love gods on fluffy clouds or something

do you think in 20 years time, kids will be able to recall lines from pfork's neon indian reviews. probably.

xpost -- yup, specifically remember that. I would though.

The Wish illustration was some kind of dark sunset thing, I think...

Kid Rock has a much higher likelihood of induction than Bizkit, i will say

Fyi this will be the day I finally have a stroke.

age-wise i think we'll all be in the stroke range

oh man actually he'll be eligible for induction the same year as green day

Grits Sandwiches For Breakfast will be 25 years old in three years! get ready!!!!

haha xpost

Though if Bob Seger isn't in the hall of fame yet...

oh wait he got in in 2004

if bob seger is in the HOF than anything's possible.

then

argh

hey

just thinking of the R'n'R Hall of fame in 2025*, though, yeesh

*i refuse to believe kid rock will spend less time twiddling his thumbs than bob seger did

do you think in 20 years time, kids will be able to recall lines from pfork's neon indian reviews. probably.

frankly, with the way the music industry and music audiences have fragmented in general, I'd be surprised if anyone remembers any bands from this era. it kind of seems to me that music simply can't have longevity anymore.

Man, Seger is popular here on ILM. He's one guy the Hall got right.

I'd argue there's lots of guys (and gals) the Hall got right. It's the crazyshits like RHCP that make people forget about the deserving inducteed.

(And looking over said list, RHCP are the worst by a longshot; there's no other inductee that approaches them for sheer "What the fuck are they doing there?!"-ness)

"inducteed" = inductees

Billy Joel is in = the place must burn.

Oh, forgot about him. Yeah, fuck 'em.

switch out the RHCP for The Spinners and you've got yourself a good 2012 crew.

I like the RHCP but no-one's really clamoring for them to be acknowledged for their contribution, surely.

Spinners were nominated for 2012, even.

I would argue that RHCP isn't even that bad a nominee if you ignore everything they did post-BSSM

(well really I'd argue post-UMPP because I really hate Mothers' Milk but I know that removing their commercial breakthroughs would be silly)

Kiedis' horrible facial hair decisions should be enough to disqualify them

I'd go along with that (ignoring post-UMPP).

xp

haha dan do you ever get tired of pretending as if most people have even heard the first three RHCP albums and/or that they would vastly change their opinion of the band if they had

This looks like it might be a couple of years out of date, but here's a list of artists who have been nominated (or "considered") in the past without making it in: http://www.futurerocklegends.com/previously_considered.php

Albert King! Chic! The E-Street Band

why are we even talking abt GNR/RHCP ffs

half that list reads like a HOF list on its own!

I would have thought Carole King would be right up their alley.

She was inducted as a songwriter (with Gerry Goffin), but not as a performer.

Carole King is the definition of Rock and Roll. Fuck the MC5 and Deep Purple, Carole King rocks!

Mother's Milk would have made a great maxisingle.

Taste the Pain
Knock Me Down
Pretty Little Ditty

stop trying to sway me to your opinion on Mother's Milk with seductive haikus

knock me down is such a beautiful song

Carole King is the definition of Rock and Roll. Fuck the MC5 and Deep Purple, Carole King rocks!

Interestingly, the MC5 and Deep Purple are not in the HoF specifically, and explicitly, because Carole King is. It's stipulated in her contract.

("I want Deep Pur-ple under my feet, I want the 5 tumbling down..."

Wait, Frank Zappa's in there. Didn't he have a song where he sings about Deep Purple?

I think it's the other way around

shit

:D

Interestingly, the MC5 and Deep Purple are not in the HoF specifically, and explicitly, because Carole King is. It's stipulated in her contract.

^so stupid

the deep purple snub is kinda weird and MC5 should totally be in, but so should carole king!

i love you all

haha dan do you ever get tired of pretending as if most people have even heard the first three RHCP albums and/or that they would vastly change their opinion of the band if they had

that's an.. interesting piece of selective reading

guys, GNR isn't hair metal

i just think it's funny how you have to talk about their early stuff every time RHCP comes up, to the point of saying that they'd be a good Rock'n'Roll Hall of Fame nominee if they'd stopped after the first 3 albums nobody bought

yeah how bizarre that someone talks about the stuff they like by a band, it really doesn't make any kind of sense

ok if you don't see the humor in "they wouldn't be a bad Hall of Fame nominee if you ignore virtually the entire period in which they've been famous" then nevermind

guys, GNR isn't hair metal

― Matt Armstrong, Thursday, April 12, 2012 1:53 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

they have an interesting relationship to hair metal IMO..they seem to be at once a part of it and outside of it...like Appetite feels like the complete masterpiece of that era of music, but at the same time the end of that era, and GnR kind of put the definitive cap on the era while killing it at the same time (to me at least)

Appetite isn't hair metal at all though; it's total sleaze rock. It's way closer to ACDC than Cinderella.

Paradise City is sort of hair metal in the sense that it was an arena anthem but the song is basically Skynyrd.

yeah it's kind of strange how GNR debuted after almost every other big band of that scene (and 5+ years after Motley Crue) and were able to kind of eclipse them all in a lot of ways and not be looked at as johnny come latelys or anything like that. (xpost)

Guns 'N Roses sound like a gritty version of Winger

matt, no i know what you're saying...i guess i meant more from the perspective of being a fan at the time, like i didn't really cut those distinctions, all metal was good because of the fact that it was metal, and i thought iron maiden was metal and bon jovi was metal and GnR was metal and britney fox was metal etc

making a distinction between "sleaze rock" and "hair metal" is just vanity

It's way closer to ACDC than Cinderella.

But Cinderella were practically AC/DC copyists!

this idea is falling apart as i write it, but don't you think the is-but-isn't relationship of GNR to the rest of hair metal is formal? as in, they had two guitar players, and sound like it? there's just a lot more stonesy mess going on. i'm not the closest student of this music but the other big names of the time seemed to have a single guitarist iirc. plus slash sounded the least van haleny of all the genre's guitarists.

cinderella had plenty of double-guitar stones indenture

i don't know cinderella at all! like i said i'm not real knowledgeable about this music.

i think of AC/DC, Van Halen and Aerosmith as the 3 big transitional hard rock bands that bridged the '70s and '80s, obviously all of them were a little goofy and cartoony in their on way, but less fluffy than the 'hair metal' bands that they influenced, and GNR seems kind of like a throwback to their heyday (maybe in production/playing more than persona) than of a piece with their peers.

yeah esp by the 2nd album cinderella got real stonsey.....

GNR's snare wasn't as gated than the snare on Poison records. Also, they didn't play pointy-headstock guitars with crunchless sustain. And their singer was a scraggy, scuzzy lech. Plus, they were the American answer to the Faces.

the Replacements were the American answer to the Faces

Mmmmaybe...but less because Westerberg ain't Stewart and more because Mars ain't Jones.

g'n'r toned down the glam but jesus it was still an aquanet-drenched band of guys named axl, iggy, slash and duff. and it's not like hair bands weren't already giving a high sheen to '70s signposts.

lol izzy i mean

more because Mars ain't Jones

and Adler is? gtfo

and maybe the drums weren't AS gated as poison's, but they're still fucking late '80s as can be. People are ignoring the commonalities because G'n'R didn't revel in some of the flaws of hair metal. Like saying Children of Men isn't a sci-fi movie because, yeah it's a dystopian movie set in the future based around a scientific fantasy, but they don't call money "spacebucks."

when GNR broke they were definitely teasing up their hair and dressing more glam, then it seemed like once they got big Axl went for the longhair/headband look...cfe: how he looks in welcome to the jungle vs. paradise city videos

maybe it's actually kind of common for the tail end of an era to define it, the way the 2nd half of the Beatles catalog has become way more culturally ubiquitous than the 1st half.

g'n'r was a strong enough band, musically and aesthetically, to influence their peers, but let's not pretend their peers weren't named tracii and bret.

and Adler is? gtfo

I'd definitely say Adler's closer, yeah. He gets the mid-tempo swing/swagger happening in a way that Mars never really could. Also, for the faster stuff, Adler lays back like Jones, whereas Mars is on top of/ahead of the beat -- that's not a bad thing by any means, and it was great for the 'mats, but a solid Jones disciple it does not Mars make.

But Cinderella were practically AC/DC copyists!

― EveningStar (Sund4r), Thursday, April 12, 2012 7:18 PM (15 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah I shouldn't have said Cinderella, they mixed it up a bit. "Shake Me" is definitely hair though.

yeah, i don't get the "sleaze rock" / "hair metal" distinction at all. guns 'n roses kept their sound gritty & raw, made the connections to stuff like skynyrd, aerosmith, the stones, the dolls and hanoi rocks a little bit more explicit, but the basic approach isn't all that different from early motley crue or w/e. m@tt otm.

g'n'r was a strong enough band, musically and aesthetically, to influence their peers, but let's not pretend their peers weren't named tracii and bret.

― da croupier, Thursday, April 12, 2012 3:34 PM (53 seconds ago) Bookmark

GNR was influential on later bands sure but their peers? i mean i guess Dr. Feelgood and Slave To The Grind were in some way responses to the post-Appetite landscape but Guns came along so late in the game that i feel like the other big bands were probably looking at them more like competition than an influence.

early motley crue isn't hair imo

motley crue switched styles 2 or 3 times depending on whom they wanted to rip off

you're making a rather limited definition of "influence" there, sd.

didn't motley crue and GnR pretty much hate each other? i think like somebody pulled somebodies pants down at the troubador or some shit i can't quite remember

yeah dude, GET IN THE RING MOTHERFUCKER

i guess, it was kind of a tangent to the main point of your post anyway so nevermind (xpost)

I definitely think Patience influenced bands-- guys we need an acoustic ballad

early motley crue isn't hair imo

i'd say hair went through stages.

also, i think it's weird to talk about who "should" be in the R&RHOF as a product of what we happen to like (unless, you know, we're members of the voting body). i think that kiss and the red hot chili peppers make sense as inductees because they were hugely popular and influential and are well-remembered. they helped shape and keep alive the general american sense of what "rock and roll" is all about - as embodied by the hard rock cafe, harley ads and dive bar playlists.

The Monkees aren't in the hall of fame either and they have more good songs than KISS

maybe now that one is dead the hall will forgive them for being pre-fab

yeah totally. i look at the HOF and the Grammys and other things like that as, well, of course they're kind of silly and not wholly merit-based, but you can at least pretty easily triangulate what the canon they're trying to form is, and critique or comment on how close or far off the mark they get. (xpost to contenderizer)

didn't motley crue and GnR pretty much hate each other? i think like somebody pulled somebodies pants down at the troubador or some shit i can't quite remember

Did you deliberate quote Axl Rose from "Welcome to the Jungle" there? According to Nick Kent's "the Dark Stuff": "FUCKIN' MOTLEY CRUE GAVE FUCKIN' STEVIE FUCKIN' AJAX TO SNORT! FUCKED HIM UP!!"

Oops, that was a quote from "Paradise City"-- my mistake

This showed up on Longform today:
http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=62

that article paints a charming portrait of Axl Rose, at least at the beginning.

"Who cares?" Ian McLagan of the Faces said when asked about Rose's slight.

i don't care!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-17721376

saying he felt neither "wanted or respected".

So is this Brit grammar, bad BBC grammar, or misquoting Axl's bad grammar? Because if Axl doesn't know it's neither/nor, not neither/or, I'll be very sad.

Bad BBC grammar. Pretty sure that, for all his faults, Axl can speak English proper.

I was just listening to "One in a Million." In my mind, the controversy about the lyrics were totally overblown, but shit, these are still shocking.

yeah, it's pretty hideous. too bad the tune and vocal are so great.

Yeah, it's an acoustic juggernaut, if only the lyrics were different. I read a grip of gnr biographies andeverybody's take onit is different. Duff and slash both purported to accept axl's explanation of a fictional narrator for the song, while being embarassed in their private lives and relationships. I think Adler says he believed that axl's http://kkkorner.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/nbomb5.jpg?w=350&h=259 was onlyon referenceto certain kinds of black people.

Huh. Niceautoreplace.

Also, please note that my opinion of adlers opinion is that he should walk off a fucking cliff.

Backstage at a Rolling Stones show in 1989 that GNR and Living Colour were both opening, Rose supposedly approached a visibly pissed Vernon Reid and said, "Hey, I didn't mean that YOU guys were n*ggers!"

Parts of the song that are unassailable:

1,2,1,2,3,4
(Whistling and modulating rhythm guitar)
Guess I needed sometime to get away
I needed some piece of mind
Some piece of mind that'll stay
So I thumbed it down to Sixth and L.A.
Maybe a Greyhound could be my way

and then it gets completely and totally assailable.

and then it launches into

ou're one in a million
Yeah, that's what you are
You're one in a million, babe
You're a shooting star
Maybe someday we'll see you
Before you make us cry
You know we tried to reach you
But you were much too high

which is just basically fucking awesome.

then the telegraph piano and vamping in the last minute or so of the song.

God, that fucking hillbilly chickenshit.