Steely Dan vs. Fleetwood Mac

not even close

oh god

http://www.alexandgregory.com/images/Luke%20vs%20vader.jpg

not even close

I was tempted to do a Steely Dan vs. ABBA poll - that would be a true battle of the '70s stalwarts.

I'd say it's too close to call: two different kinds of studio perfectionism. I love Rumours, Tusk, and assorted singles more than the SD catalogue combined, and it's a lot tougher, weirder, and warmer than any music of its era; but SD is a band to grow old with.

if Christine McVie had replaced David Palmer you would have had the greatest band of all time.

but the Dan versus ABBA is totally easy: the Dan by a fucking mile.

this one is so hard i can't even wrap my head around it right now.

Hmm... that's not how I would call it. Fleetwood Mac have a few great songs, but not nearly as many as ABBA.

"but the Dan versus ABBA is totally easy: the Dan by a fucking mile."

Can I flip that around please?

I was reading a review for Mamma Mia the other day and every song they mentioned made me play it in my head.

I like Dan, but Fleetwood Mac wins this and ABBA would win the alternate contest with ease, as well.

Fleetwood>ABBA>Fleetwood>>>>>>>>>>>>Dan

Fleetwood Mac are allowed be in it twice.

Yeah for me it's Fleetwood by a good margin.

ABBA vs. Dan is a toss-up. Both easily prevail over Fleetwood Mac.

in spite of "Don't Stop Thinking About Tomorrow" which made me gag twice this wknd xp

You gagged with emotion.

it's kind of sad that we didn't just all post "not even close"

Poor Poem Rocket ;_;

"it's kind of sad that we didn't just all post "not even close""

Damn Soto!

I know, right?

Okay, people need to stop doing that

10 years ago it would have been tough, but the older i get the more i really only care about lindsey's Tusk songs and a handful of tracks from the P. Green era.

Not caring about Stevie Nicks and Christine McVie = eating babies.

i know. i'm kind of ashamed.

I like Fleetwood Mac's songs fine and much respect for Buckingham's vision but a thousand Fleetwood Macs in a thousand studios working for a thousand years would still never write one lyric fit to stand next to even medium-strength Dan

I mean those of you who dig the artifice realize that FM are basically confessional folk with a lot of money behind it, right?

Mac by a mile.

Noted, John.

As far as the Mac songwriters go, during their most popular phase:

Nicks>>>>>McVie>Buckingham

xxp
doesn't really tell us much about their pop songwriting sensibilty

All equal, Lindsey pokes a head out but never wrote Over and Over, Hold Me, Everywhere or even Sarah or Storms

exactly

(though i do dig Hold Me)

No, those are my favourite mcvie and stevie songs

Fleetwood Mac

Approximate number of Mac discs I own, including solos, bootlegs and Walter Egan's "Fundamental Roll": 14

Precise number of Dan discs I own: 0

J0hn OTM Dan all the way you Mac apologists disgust me

(j/k)

No apologies here!

ILX doesn't want heroin and wry wit. ILX wants to dump its husband for the sound guy.

roflz

^^^rockism 101^^^

I mean those of you who dig the artifice realize that FM are basically confessional folk with a lot of money behind it, right?

as if SD didn't have exactly as much money behind it!

lyrically SD are cold motherfuckers, standing at miles and miles' worth of ironic distance from everything they wrote about. FM are warm motherfuckers, lying prone about three inches beneath everything they wrote about. at least i think that's how it works. and i love 'em both.

I dunno – there's plenty of distance on Tusk, especially on the Buckingham tunes.

weird, i hear almost everything he did in FM as emotionally naked and raw and direct. there's lots of anger and hurt and bitterness and jealousy and who knows what else, but i don't hear distance.

Nicks > McVie > Buckingham

"the making of peg." awesome.

as if SD didn't have exactly as much money behind it!

ha dude I'm not demonizing the money, I'm saying "take the money away and what are you left with? confessional folk" - the same isn't true of Steely Dan, there aren't many folk singers fucking around with Gb7b9s & shit

I do think "Gypsy" is a wonder of both composition and execution & that there are several comparable points in the FM catalog, but the only point of comparison here is in-studio perfectionism. Compositionally, nobody in Fleetwood Mac nor the sum of their parts can really stand in the same light as Becker 'n' Fagen.

but that 'confession folk' epithet is woefully inaccurate, or at least woefully inadequate.

sounds more like another band i know...

also, yes, as a band FM equal Backer and Fagan, compositionally

xp lol

I don't know either of these two so well but I strongly suspect that if I did, I'd be firmly in the Dan camp. I have Pretzel Logic and that's a fine record, for starters. I also have Tusk and haven't really given it much of a chance. Hmm.

ha dude I'm not demonizing the money, I'm saying "take the money away and what are you left with? confessional folk" - the same isn't true of Steely Dan, there aren't many folk singers fucking around with Gb7b9s & shit

-- J0hn D.

lolllll

if thats yr bag, whatever, but thats such a narrow argument as to be a pointless one

I really enjoy lyrics, but they're just one aspect of the experience. FM -- and SD, for that matter -- are bands where lyrics aren't that important to me. I suppose you can argue that SD are better and tighter musically, and write more complicated pieces, but they're much colder and more distant than FM. And -- to me -- Lindsey Buckingham wrings a lot of emotion out of his guitar work (e.g. Silver Springs).

Anyway, as I say, FM by a mile.

(Oh, sort of xp, I guess).

you just dont understand the MUSIC, maaan

they were fucking around with gb7b98bs

and that's another thing: steely dan never sound like a band (by the name of steely dan), except on the first two albums, occasionally.
after that they sound like what they are, shit-hot session musos being bent to two guys' creative vision. but you've got to factor this as major plus for FM, a major fact of their goodness.

I think the only time I didn't think SD sounded like a band was on Two Against Nature.

I personally think that ON THE WHOLE the more songwriting variety you have to offer, the better songs you'll be able to write, so the Dan's musical training and knowledge of chords n whatnot put them, I'd say, in a position where they could compose the more interesting, arresting and enjoyable music (to me at least). Whether they did so is another issue.

ie you get to know them and their sound, individually and collectively.
Steely Dan are constantly giving you cold novelty (which is fantastic in its own right, obv)

they were fucking around with gb7b98bs

Oh, look, I know J0hn has a point (and, hell, he would know more about it than me, anyway). SD were pretty great compositionally, and in terms of their musical expertise. I just prefer the warmer feel of FM's songs.

he's got a point, its just that to me its directly comparable to grateful dead fans who are like 'hey look theyre using not one but TWO drums!! insane!!!'

I'm trying but failing to hear "Rattlesnake Shake" as confessional folk with a lot of money behind it.

Am thrilled to see little Poem Rocket remembered. Their way-delayed and totally ignored new-ish album actually has a couple pretty good tracks, including a very nice Throwing Muses homage.

I have voted Poem Rocket.

using two drums = unnecessary showmanship, rarely improves music (unless the music is highly percussive and beat-dominated)

knowing shitloads of chords = what you NEED in order to be able to compose genuinely good pop/rock music (IMO)

ok what

yeah I think "from a compositional standpoint, one of the two is more sophisticated" is hardly muso-musing - I mean, I know "lol chord names" is a nice way to flex pseudo-popist chops, but it's not like you need a degree to dig "Peg." On the other hand, the more you know about close harmony, the more stunning McDonald's work is there, and it's something that (per McDonald) Becker specifically asked him to do. Buckingham kicks ass at layering fox. Becker/Fagen do that plus seem to be able to switch between many different styles of harmony at will, to considerably more varied effect.

also can you fucking geeks resist mentioning my day job for five fucking minutes like one day out the year, for fuck's sake, lookin at you SS

layering vox, sorry, been in Germany for a month now

but I'm sure the learned deeznuts will be along momentarily to equate respect for musicianship & canny use of theory with being dazzled by pyrotechnics

hang on aren't you some black metal reviewer by day

I'm also the singer from Coldplay

wow! what's brian eno like in person?????

sorry, been in Germany for a month now

I admit I lolled

Beyond liking musos more than hippies (if you want to be unfairly reductive of both bands), Steely Dan were one of the main bands played in my house as I was growing up, ergo their music has imprinted itself on me in a deeply profound way that Fleetwood Mac's hasn't.

Yeah, I love both these bands, but I've only really gotten into FM within the last couple of years (and still haven't heard everything), so I voted for Steely Dan (I've heard everything).

but I'm sure the learned deeznuts will be along momentarily to equate respect for musicianship & canny use of theory with being dazzled by pyrotechnics

-- J0hn D.

i wont, because the latter is quite a bit more understandable & less boring than the former

I'm also the singer from Coldplay

! I thought you were the drummer for Gay Dad!

addeeznuts

'admittedly, nothing about this song SOUNDS as good as that song you like better, to your ignorant ears - but if you were learned enough to understand the TECHNIQUE & THEORY behind it, youd be telling a different story'

The point is more "if you like TECHNIQUE & THEORY you will most likely vastly prefer this one band over the other one" but thanks for trying.

Deeznuts makes me wanna go out and buy all the Steely Dan albums and do what Gear did (close laptop, shun TV, devote life to SD for a coupla weeks)

i agree, but the reason most people here & everywhere else prefer FM is because its not fucking rocket science, & music isnt supposed to be (IMO) - only the dregs of it are; music is about immediate immediacy

erm xp to HD

i heard once chevy chase was an OG steely dan member?

only the dregs of it are

*hackles raise*

JGO what are 5 of your favorite bands? just curious

no no no, phil hartman designd the cover of aja.

why does deeznuts have to ruin every thread

Chase did not enter medical school; instead he played drums for a time with the college band The Leather Canary, headed by school friends Walter Becker and Donald Fagen. At the time, Chase called the group "a bad jazz band", but Becker and Fagen went on to success after they changed their band's name to Steely Dan.

lolllllllll

cardiacs
talk talk
oceansize
ulver
xtc

happy?

music is about immediate immediacy

lol really? that's what music is "about," is it?

IOW Shakey Mo OTM

gaze not into the abyss J0hn

man I wish somebody's told me that before I spent like most of my life gazing into the goddamn abyss, it might have made a difference then

OTOH if I weren't so drawn to the abyss, I might not like Steely Dan so much, so it's a wash

you know what i think is really badass? those guys who play guitars, but use jazz or classical formats with them. really incredible stuff. a total upending & deconstruction of classical music theory.

a "deconstruction" you say

of "classical music theory" you say

"deeznuts" you say

a deezconstruction

of another ILX thread

sorry, is that too academic for you?

these guys play mozart tunes on their guitars, & it allows us to pick apart just how & why that kid was so brilliant. fascinating. i hate music that doesnt make us as listeners examine what its trying to do.

are you talking about segovia

I always thought music was about delayed immediacy, personally.

deeznuts, your strawman in no way equates to the subtle and instinctive musical complexity to which we are alluding

dan is on some tantric shit right there

if that was the case, no one would sing xp

or perhaps it differs according to genre? and other factors? and saying music is one thing is not true?

sure, but i think some genres & factors & attitudes are better than others, which is why i disagree w/ people repping for SD over FM

(my last post was x-posted to HI DERE)

if ILX was the Coliseum, Deeznuts would have to fight Geir Hongro, think about that folks

I was not exposed to either band (like, at ALL) when I was a child - while I've become more familiar with the Dan as an adult (and as a musician) that's stemmed mostly from being rewarded with the depth and breadth of their material and beign drawn in by that. Lyrically, compositionally, and performance-wise I just got really drawn into their catalog, its very rich in detail and unique and funny and biting and catchy and sounds near-effortless, which is the real magic of pop. I have had no such experience with FM - the wife has one of the Peter Green albums (I've never listened to it) and Rumours (which just kinda irritates me), I heard CVB do all of Tusk (which was kinda interesting) and beyond a couple hits (Don't Stop Thinking About Tomorrow = vomitriciousness, Gypsy) I don't find anything particularly compelling about them. I don't really care about the interpersonal soap opera aspect that reportedly underpins a lot of their material. They certainly don't strike me as being as versatile and flexible (lol Gbm9 chords or whatever) as SD. I can't think of any lyrics of theirs that are particularly as sharp or witty as Fagen's.

so yeah, the Dan.

if ILX was the Coliseum, Deeznuts would have to fight Geir Hongro, think about that folks

make it so. preferably a death match

Frogman, my post was less about trying to determine what "music" is and more about agreeing with J0hn that the phrase "immediate immediacy" is kind of a stupid thing to say.

boy, this thread got dull quick!

thatd be some kind of spock vs kirk kind of shit cuz i luv geir based on what ive seen of him

shakey, i get that you & j0hn & JGO are musicians. the curious thing about most people is, they arent, & theyre going to regard musicians who make music based largely upon pop sensibility & their own feelings quite a bit higher than they will musicians who make music for musicians.

like i said, if you guys can appreciate what theyre doing, fine. but theyre gonna get swamped in this & any other poll & i hope you guys can at least see why.

fuck deeznuts

Frogman, my post was less about trying to determine what "music" is and more about agreeing with J0hn that the phrase "immediate immediacy" is kind of a stupid thing to say.

-- HI DERE

4 minutes to change the world

mr gay if SD beats FM i will quit ilx

^^^^let's make it happen folks!

i don't think playing a bit of blues-rock bass for a couple of drunken college shows makes me a musician exactly but you take what you receive i guess

oh god speaking of which have we been thrown a bone here

boy, this thread got dull quick!

respectfully disagree. any thread that gives us an idea as worthwhile as this:

I always thought music was about delayed immediacy, personally.

is worth its weight in gold. dust woman. you know? Dan, that's a really beautiful thing to say and I thank you for it.

"Frogman, my post was less about trying to determine what "music" is "and more about agreeing with J0hn that the phrase "immediate immediacy" is kind of a stupid thing to say.

-- HI DERE,"

oh okay. well yeah it is stupid, and er, quite a funny phrase of course, but in so far as one can interpret it as meaning erm 'immediacy', then ultimately some music works by virtue of its immediacy, and other muic doesn't. so there's no point in any of us being dogmatic about that (unless we say, 'as for me, i only like music that does this'). so im still unsure if your post is a mere joke or a claim about music, but whatever.

xp "is worth its weight in gold. dust woman. you know? Dan, that's a really beautiful thing to say and I thank you for it.

-- J0hn D.,"

i completely agree because, frankly, this is the kind of music i like best, and which turns out to be most rewarding to me.

deeznutz, no fewer than five of Steely Dan's albums went gold. your argument that "most people" aren't gonna get them, or that their stuff owing to its complexity is "for" musicians, is moronic.

cue some boneheaded argument like "back in the seventies everything went gold" or something

"deeznutz"

this is another level

I think I accidentally truth-bombed myself because even though that came about as a cheap dig at painful redundancy, if I try to define what "delayed immediacy" actually could be I start thinking of music that sneaks up on you, snatches you up, and holds you in a moment for long after it stops playing, which is kind of my ideal ur-critereon for what I consider to be "great music". Both SD and FM do this to me but I'm both way way way more familiar and predisposed to the SD approach due to being inundated with it as a child.

can we do a separate thread about "delayed immediacy"? or find one already about it?

or, how about like in a Mozart opera where, although the melodic invention may seem diffuse at first, if you allow the music to sink in, its immediacy strikes you even more strongly. Thar's why i like 'delayed immediacy', because it makes me think of music where the 'immediacy' of the music is not on show at first, but comes out through attention or perserverance. but actually i think this applies just as mich to Mahler or Varese.

I missed Dan's remark. Hm...

Well...FM's large appeal to me was how successfully they met Dan's criteria. I must have heard "Dreams" a thousand times as a child, and each time something else stood out: the guitar gremlins, the thunk of the bass, and that chorus, which was impossibly ethereal yet human, especially the way Nicks sings "Women, they will come and they will go."

Voted for SD for obv reasons but I am personally too crudely formed to be able to properly appreciate either band.

for obv reasons

RIP deeznuts

i wish every thread about fm didn't ignore the pre-buckingham nicks era, which had some definite iffy parts but also some amazing music (and also isn't played out like the platinum years)

Yeah, this thread is a little surreal in that sense. I keep seeing the title and thinking "jazz vs. blues" but then nobody actually goes there.

A large part of Nicks' greatness as a performer is the delusion of intimacy she offers listeners. At her best she's the most emotionally opaque of listeners (Kate Bush is Whitney Houston in comparison). Her art consists of convincing us that we share those moments of ineluctable passion that force her to drown in a sea of love; we have to penetrate Buckingham's guitar swells, the solid fortress of a rhythm section, and McVie's harmonies to get to her. She's truly medieval.

"Jazz vs blues" implies "polished vs raw" to me, and while I'm not familiar with early Fleetwood Mac I can't think of a single thing I've heard by them that wasn't every bit as polished as Steely dan.

This will sound bitchy, but you need to listen to more early Fleetwood Mac.

like blues and jazz are separate entities lolz

if anything jazz already has the blues IN it

Kind of like Pizza Hut where you get that pizza with cheese in the crust.

like blues and jazz are separate entities lolz

yeah I wasn't going to go there

'delayed immediacy' has nothing to do w/ the arguments the steely dan defenders are making because it implies a disrespect for the musicians ability in the first place - no such thing can exist if you approach your favored musicians as some kind of scientists

the 'delay' becomes expected & calculated & therefore no more interesting (actually less so) than the work of artists who go straight for the center of the brain

This is no ordinary blues-rock. This is exquisitely-crafted, melodious and yet instinctive blues-rock hewn from the gnostic palpitations of Peter Green's superconductive cerebrum.

if anything jazz already has the blues IN it

-- Shakey Mo Collier

ridiculous & dumb argument - if anything metal has the punk IN it. if anything punk has the metal IN it. if anything the emo has the punk IN it. if anything the pop has the metal IN it.

You don't really understand what makes the blues the blues, do you, these nuts?

thing about early fleetwood is that it changes quite a bit, earliest phase is british blooze (which i usually don't go for but wow @ peter green & danny kirwan), then you get the transitional period with kirwan and then bob welch out front, sorta moving towards the middle-of-the road of the buckingham/nicks years but with a lot of weirdness too (and christine is along for much of that period and it's cool to see her develop)

Yeah deez, you might have more luck advancing your viewpoint if your rhetoric wasn't transparently full of shit.

just to be helpful instead of assaultive: metal/punk/emo are styles
blues is a form

massive, massive difference

deeznuts please don't bother talking to me anymore k thx bye

its the CHORDS, right? how about if those blues artists stopped using those chords as an expression of their feelings but rather as an expression of their technical ability? bing bang boom youve got jazz! its just the same, but better, because instead of being rawly emotional theyre being -technically emotional- play a saxophone or stfu because you wont get it straight

wut

That's possibly the wrongest thing nuts has ever said.

its the CHORDS, right? how about if those blues artists stopped using those chords as an expression of their feelings but rather as an expression of their technical ability? bing bang boom youve got jazz! its just the same, but better, because instead of being rawly emotional theyre being -technically emotional- play a saxophone or stfu because you wont get it straight

-- deeznuts, Monday, July 28, 2008 11:13 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

you are an alcoholic squirrel named Todd

how about if those blues artists stopped using those chords as an expression of their feelings but rather as an expression of their technical ability? bing bang boom youve got jazz!

umm no

This jazz is blues argument seems like an awfully complicated way of saying "I haven't listened to much early Fleetwood Mac."

deeznuts, to be crude:

blues = melancholy

jazz = fucking

This jazz is blues argument seems like an awfully complicated way of saying "I haven't listened to much early Fleetwood Mac."

lol

Louis no offense but that's also wrong

Honestly, no human says anything THAT crackheaded intentionally. This is pretty much conclusive proof that deeznuts is a sockpuppet.

if anything jazz already has the blues IN it

-- Shakey Mo Collier

im totally aware that this argument is fucking ridiculous people

intentionally sincerely

as I understand it, jazz introduces the aspect of improvisation. there is improvisation in blues, but not to the extent that jazz brings it in. of course since the blues does not die as soon as jazz modifies it, there's quite a bit of cross-feedback between the two genres once jazz is born. "feeling" has fuck-all to do with the formal distinctions I'm drawing here. these distinctions are hardly oh noes inaccessible hard theory how we will return THE MUSIC to THE PEOPLE.

Aw, I was only trying to give a simple dictionary translation. I know the musical forms are both doing something more complex than can be dismissed in a one-word equivocation. Where is each definition wrong, though, just so I know?

xpost

ok cheers! :)

play a saxophone or stfu

I miss changeable usernames.

also np J0hn, you gotta end me to offend me

Where is each definition wrong, though, just so I know?

there's is TONS of "fucking" in the blues. Backdoor Man etc. I mean come on it's dance music. likewise there's plenty of melancholy in jazz (and fucking, and dancing too)

btw I'm hardly the most sophisticated crayon in the theory box so if somebody wants to correct my jazz/blues distinctions, more than amenable to correction

one of the things that makes SD's music so interesting from a formal perspective is that when many rock bands wanted to be "jazz-like," they'd largely take "jazz" to mean "license to noodle." SD bring a jazz sensibility to stellar pop songs, and then ice that cake with probably the best lyrics in the whole rock canon. (GG/A.C. excepted of course.) the whole project is predicated on this neat little trick of composition/execution, which, at the listener's level, translates into hummable singable pop songs whose complexities reveal or hide themselves as the listener sees fit.

for me the best point of comparison has always been Stevie Wonder, though I wouldn't have noticed it if I hadn't once tried to play "Signed, Sealed, Delivered" on the piano from the sheet music - OMFG. So much going on there, so much of it squirreled away so you don't have to be bothered by it if all you want to do is dance. Applies, I'd guess, across Stevie's best work, as it does across much of SD's.

I must have heard "Dreams" a thousand times as a child

The day I realized FM was awesome was four years ago, when I was driving around by myself and heard "Dreams" on the radio. I figured that I must've heard the song before (despite my frequent classic-rock myopia, it sounded familiar), but never before had it ever hit me like it did then.

Actually, jazz vs. blues to me means maj-7th chords vs. dom-7th chords. I prefer the former, which is why I've rarely investigated anything Fleetwood Mac did prior to 1975.

the whole project is predicated on this neat little trick of composition/execution

This is important. A lot of recorded music I genuinely like seems to have been constructed with this sort of procedure in mind, with the tune/chord sequence/aural map/whatever worked out long before it's put together. It makes for a more rewarding package, if your music is constructed with consideration, I find. This does not apply to live performance.

pre-75 fm a lot more varied than you think
xpost

Let me return this to first principles:

WHO HAS PRETTIER, MORE MYSTICAL HAIR:

http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=23345&rendTypeId=4

vs

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/149/380189919_e0d5be7526.jpg?v=0

The Ghost from Bare Trees is necessary if people haven't checked out any pre 75 mac.

if we're goin that way alfred "who can get better drugs?" is key - gimme the jazz cats over the Cali cokeheads any day on that one

sorry werent steely dan cali cokeheads too?

Which is the more tastless drug casualty: Nicks almost blowing a hole through her septum in the mid eighties vs Becker's OD girlfriend.

the fact that FM is the less chill of the two groups is their entire appeal

i feel sorry for those of you who identify w/ musicians based on how impressed you are w/ their chops & how much youd like to hang w/ them

all pop stars are cockheads

deez, it isn't how impressed with their chops, it's how impressed with their music. their compositions. their art. i hate on dream theater like any sane man, i mean sure they're probably great live but they're the band you're ragging on, not steely dan

any session player who had to work with the Dan would probably not agree with your assessment of who is less chill

i feel sorry for those of you who identify w/ musicians based on how impressed you are w/ their chops & how much youd like to hang w/ them

NO ONE HAS SAID THIS. Stop projecting this recherche punk ethos.

a recherche deeznuts perdu

recherche punk ethos

sounds like a hell of a techno track

any session player who had to work with the Dan would probably not agree with your assessment of who is less chill

-- El Tomboto

but at least theyd have full respect for their devotion to incredible, precise musicianship, which is surely more fascinating than like, emotions people identify with or something

shut up

If you don't "identify" with the songs, that's your affair.

if we're goin that way alfred "who can get better drugs?" is key - gimme the jazz cats over the Cali cokeheads any day on that one

-- J0hn D., Monday, July 28, 2008 11:51 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Link

sorry werent steely dan cali cokeheads too?

-- max, Monday, July 28, 2008 11:51 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Link

actually, does anyone know what the SD dudes got up to substance-wise (other than weed or drinking, i mean). i've been made to understand that becker had a heroin habit for a while...did fagen get into trouble with stuff as well?

i feel sorry for those of you who identify w/ musicians based on how impressed you are w/ their chops & how much youd like to hang w/ them

wow, it's like you didn't understand anything anybody said! congratulations!

it's really shocking how these nuts thinks that talking about form is like praising yngwie or something

can't say for sure, but i was under the impression that becker developed a major coke problem around the time of Gaucho. i assume they were both casual users anyway, and i suspect becker must have at least dabbled in heroin since his gf (the one that od'd) was reportedly a heavy user.

xxp

oh, ok. i'm not sure i knew about the girlfriend thing, yikes.

dude, it isn't how impressed i am with their chops, it's how impressed i am with their music. their compositions. their art. i love dream theater like any sane man, i mean sure they're great live but they're the band you're ragging on, not steely dan - what's wrong with you?

-- Just got offed

JD & JGO your argument for SD is predicated on their musicianship, as you see it - their understanding of form & their ability to execute it. ok, but if thats the case, WHY IS FLEETWOOD MAC STILL SO MUCH BETTER? maybe because theyre doing 'confessional folk' with superb understanding of form & execution - but that doesnt matter, cuz when you strip that away, there just 'confessional folk' - when you take away steely dan's 'gimmicks', they're still masturbating

John and Dan have merely pointed out that SD's knowledge of sophisticated chord sequences makes their music more interesting FOR THEM.

The only SD album I could accuse of "sophistication for its own sake" is Aja. It's my least favorite after The Royal Scam. But so what? I still love lots of songs on both. They're different from Mirage and Tango in the Night, at any rate.

Yeah, deez, pay attention to the grown men here. I'm a decoy, 'cause I know almost as little about music as you do.

i assume they were both casual users anyway

i meant of coke, but maybe h, too. who knows.

fleetwood mac

j0hn i hope you were serious when you were thinking of getting LB to produce some stuff for you

and i should note that my only basis for that is they were successful musicians in the 70's. the only thing i know for sure is that becker admitted to heavy coke use during the Gaucho sessions, to the point that it could have been the reason it was their last for a while. and the girlfriend thing is of course on the record.

pardon the horrible grammar. i'm multi-tasking. and possibly a little drunk.

John and Dan have merely pointed out that SD's knowledge of sophisticated chord sequences makes their music more interesting FOR THEM.

-- Alfred, Lord Sotosyn

sorry i guess i shouldve just replied with GOOD FOR YOU!

SOPHISTICATED CHORD SEQUENCES!! AMAZING!

ILX 2
You have tried to insert a duplicate message.

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which band do you like better, et?

just curious

I voted the Dan in this one because I already won my battle
BOWIE VS STEELY

el tomboto was being deeznuts for halloween on that thread

there are several FM songs I enjoy but I have never really gotten into mr. buckingham's stripe of genius plus it is a lot of hippy dippy for me

all pop stars are cockheads

NOT THE JONAS BROTHERS.

With their great and mighty wisdom, Judas Priest chose to cover Fleetwood Mac, not Steely Dan. Fleetwood Mac wins.

what song did they do?

"Little Lies," of course.

"The Green Manalishi (With The Two Pronged Crown)." In other late-breaking news, Santana didn't write "Black Magic Woman."

it is a lot of hippy dippy for me

What's "hippy-dippy" about Fleetwood Mac? I hate hippy stuff. FM don't sound hippy-dippy to me. The awful Mamas & The Poppas sound hippy-dippy to me.

Perhaps you are not the ultra-accurate weathervane of hippy-dippy that you think you are.

SD bring a jazz sensibility to stellar pop songs, and then ice that cake with probably the best lyrics in the whole rock canon. (GG/A.C. excepted of course.)

GG Allin/Alice Cooper?

I voted for Steely Dan in this election. But Dan vs. ABBA would be a difficult choice for me. Do not do that poll please.

Prob Anal Cunt.

Perhaps you are not the ultra-accurate weathervane of hippy-dippy that you think you are.

Maybe not. But I am old, which makes me a semi-expert.

i love hippy dippy stuff but fleetwood mac just sound like renaissance cokeheads

Prob Anal Cunt.

Oh duh.

To self: "Girl Group/Adult Contemporary? Wha?"

Once you come to terms with the fact that there are at least a few things you like that have a little hippie in them, then it's a lot easier to turn the dippie-detector off and figure out other, better criteria.

i like both bands lots, but probably listen to SD more. though, i go through similar phases w/both, like listening to 'tusk' non-stop, and then getting burnt out on it...and then re-discovering it a few years later. same w/most of SD's catalog.

i like a buncha fleetwood early stuff, too..."bare trees", anyhow...

not that i don't go through similar stuff w/other artists, but for whatever reason, it mostly seems to happen with bands that concentrate as much on production as both of the subject of this thread do...for whatever reasons. maybe the sonic density of their output overwhelms me after a while, and i need a break from time-to-time.

In honesty, I find both bands to be rather dull. I mean, it's kinda cool that SD have great lyrics and all, but I can't really tell the diff between SD and the Eagles or Christopher Cross. All my pot-smoking getting-into-last-exit-because-of-ornette-because-of-the-dead buddies in the 80s loved SD and espoused them lots, but I just couldn't figure it out, and I still can't. I'm way too punk in my heart (hello, Alex in NYC!) and I think of SD as the absolute antithesis of everything punk was about. Given that the state of punk now is far, far worse than SD ever got, then it's a good thing in a way that SD are in the midst of a revival (along with the Eagles and Christopher Cross). After all, you cannot rebuild punk until you absolutely and totally kill it with a stake thru the heart inserted by its moral enemy.

bob welch was geeky/ugly enough to be in steely dan

I guess it's somewhat ironic, then, that Steely Dan is the barometer by which crotchety old men are separated from the young turks, except in a wholly opposite way that this would have been true in 1979.

deeznuts's version of what he imagined people were going to say about sd vs. what they actually said is like fantasy vs. reality. if you really want to take it down to 'which songs, qua songs, are better?' it's sd in a murderous landslide, not from your strawman 'lol technicalities!' standpoint but just in terms of better melodies, more interesting storylines, much more fun with the narrative voice, etc. I know once we get to terms like "narrative voice" that gives you your "lol technicalities it's all about how you FEEL!" out but seriously if that's your take what the fuck are you doing on a music discussion board?

and now per Alfred's request to me, a few words on Fleetwood Mac's "Sara." For all deeznutz's insistence that feeling is all and technicality is nil, this song, from a production standpoint, couldn't really disagree with him more. Buckingham's in love with layering - not just with the results thereof (which is how I'd describe Brian Wilson's love affair with layers: in the end, it's about the chord, the sound), but with the process. That is kind of his genius. On his excellently-titled solo album, Law and Order, he lost sight of this - I think he needs a band to keep him honest - but on Sara, the process of adding layers - the various stages of reveal, the shrinking away of the chorus (voices in chorus, not "refrain") and their hesitant return - and the placement of Nicks's voice, more in the middle than up-top which is her Dreams position - makes for a song where the storyline submerges itself behind another storyline: that of the song's development. The effect of this - the story fighting for its life against the form within which it lives - is extraordinarily melancholy. I do think that's the effect of the song - this story of longing, of trying to breathe within that longing, reflecting itself against the wax and wane of the song's layers and their eventual full waxing, which reveals the struggle to have been illusory: form and substance are the same thing, after all.

I think this is a lot of what Lindsay Buckingham is often driving at with his production style - a reconciliation of form and content, an eventual perfect meld. this is, I don't need to point out, an intellectual project, and there are many joys to be found in considering the relationship between form and content in Lindsay Buckingham's work. A whole separate story could be told about the rhythm section in this song; Fleetwood does his own storytelling in his phrases, and the bass does a questioning thing against the vocal phrases here and there that's pretty subtle and great. At the end of the day, for me, Steely Dan - who are similarly obsessed with the relationship between form and content - are much more successful, because the stories they tell are darker, and hit me much harder and trouble me more deeply, and because love, in Becker & Fagen's songs, can really ruin your life, not just your day.

I'm shocked SD isn't taking this in a walk...FM has three great albums and a whole lot of dreck, SD is like the poster child of ILM. What gives?

It's not quantity, etc.

I think of SD as the absolute antithesis of everything punk was about.

Was punk that important? Besides, isn't it this kind of rigidity that punk rebelled against?

Thanks, John -- that was lovely. OTM about Law and Order and McVie's bass in "Sara"; he plays these "tugs" around the "drowing in the sea of love" bits that evoke lying at the sea bottom with a cement block tied around your ankles.

Who are the true modern descendants of SD, I ask thee? The children who don't acknowledge their parents without a wink and a nod, that is (and there are a LOT of them).

xp: Perhaps, but on the other hand, you can't say that pronouncing a tin of garbage, "smelly", is rigid. You must draw yr aesthetic lines somewhere.

If you continuously rebel against "rigidity", you wind up in the town dump, 'cause it's no worse than any other place in town, eh?

I thought it was "down there in the sea of love" rather than "drowning in the sea of love".

whatever, i guess.

or is it both?

You can't rebel against rigidity -- that's the point. One doesn't even know that he's frozen.

My point is that finding something "boring" isn't rigid -- it's personal aesthetics. We all make aesthetic judgements, and we all draw the boundaries of taste accordingly.

Buckingham's in love with layering - not just with the results thereof . . . but with the process. That is kind of his genius.

This gets at the heart of it, I think. I love Buckingham's layering production technique; there's a depth and power that he achieves with it. And as much as I love a lot of SD stuff, I lose interest in a lot of their albums (Gaucho, for some reason, is the exception).

What a fantastic post J0hn. It articulates something I've felt but not expressed about Sara, how the production and arrangement gives a shape to the particular feeling(s) in its melody, lyrics, and vocal performance that is sometimes perfectly at one with them, sometimes surpassing them in terms of making the song what it is a peice of art.
It articulates, when the song is unable to do so, perhaps because it is too powerful - "the story fighting for its life against the form within which it lives ". How much of this song's melodic component is down to production and arangement anyway?

More on Sara.

acid mac!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsH7mVmFBec&feature=related

skipping 137 messages? oh you guys

The day I realized FM was awesome was four years ago, when I was driving around by myself and heard "Dreams" on the radio. I figured that I must've heard the song before (despite my frequent classic-rock myopia, it sounded familiar), but never before had it ever hit me like it did then.

I only heard Rumours for the first time last year. I was already familiar with a lot of the songs - The Chain from Grand Prix, Don't Stop from the Clinton years, and Dreams from the Corrs cover, which I thought just standard dreary pop-MOR - and somewhat foolishly I attributed that to the song itself, not just their version, as I figured it must be a fairly straight and unadventurous cover.

So when I heard the album I was amazed at how fresh, and new, and bright, and great the songs sounded - Dreams perhaps most of all.

Ugh, I just checked the Corrs one out again.. that horrid eurobeat! I have to clean my ears out with the original.

Anyway I guess it behooves me now to check out Pretzel Logic and see if I have a similar revelation.

The day I realized FM was awsome was when I saw them playing a song about their drummer wacking off, at the Playboy Club. Top that for ironic distance, Steely Dan.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=JsVmsPv6_Ic

I'll take my FM "Complete Blue Horizon Sessions" and gladly forget that SD and later-day FM ever even existed.

I've just got my first Dan album (Countdown) and I'm already firmly in their camp here.

At the end of the day, for me, Steely Dan - who are similarly obsessed with the relationship between form and content - are much more successful, because the stories they tell are darker, and hit me much harder and trouble me more deeply, and because love, in Becker & Fagen's songs, can really ruin your life, not just your day.

i think this is a strike against SD, in my book. FM, in their drugged-up bubble-world soap opera roadshow way, still allow for more of life's joys. not even "allow for," they actually get joyful, at times! are they just clueless? i mean, people are out there, in the multitude, finding happiness, or fucking up, and not waiting for some asshole to give his comment on it. even FM's ridiculous emotional states seem lived in, even if i don't want to live in them. i don't usually argue for this kind of thing... SD don't read to me as circumspect or knowing, just kind of cowardly, like all misanthropes.

"confessional folk with money behind it" seems like the m.o. of all pop music to me, too, or, stated differently: "how people sing in natural time + technology"

Fleetwood Mac are OK and all, but Steely Dan still deserve to walk this.

SD don't read to me as circumspect or knowing, just kind of cowardly, like all misanthropes.

sorta agree here. i like sd, obv. very talented guys. but i find their disdain for their music contemporaries, their whole "look at all these stupid hippies, they're not smart like us" vibe kinda sad, very much a nerd's revenge kind of thing. and i'm talking about the interviews they've given over the years, but it also comes thru in the music to my ears.

I'd vote for FM because they make me feel something. SD make me feel nothing.

These abbreviations confuse me. FM, no static at all!

SD make me feel nothing.

Not even creeped out? Or totally fucking destitute?

No, nothing

John D's brilliant post has got me thinking about Lindsey Buckingham's production, especially this bit: "and the placement of Nicks's voice, more in the middle than up-top which is her Dreams position"

The revelation that was in this for me, and I've heard variations on the theme articulated elsewhere is that unlike most producers, and this is especially true of his use of mixing, Buckingham's production is essentially sculptural. Each fragment moves about in space, operating in relation to each other instead of receding away from the listener into the tapestry of the mix. Hold me is a perfect example, where the sense of space is cramped with elements suddenly replacing each other, but glimpses into the centre of it reveal a tantalising emptiness. In fact this seems to be the hallmark, to me, of his style. They move around a centre and our position is unmoored instead of allowing us a clear window to look in.

i haven't heard anything close to as magical by the dan as by fm. maybe a few things...

j0hn was pretty otm above about form and content. fm were such a form-conscious, songwriting kind of band, but never afraid to kick you softly with a wtf transition or resolution or whatever that just takes everything to a higher plane. and the vocals. no other band had vocals like those.

and i'm going to agree with the "clever" steely dan criticisms above, though i really think they're sympathetic overall to whoever they're riffing on in the lyrics. but the underlying persona or viewpoint never hit me as hard as something like nicks in "storms," as clumsy as those lyrics can sometimes sound. the dan are a little too.. straight/macho underneath all the sharpness while fm can be out and proud when they want to be.

agh that didn't come out right.. not "out and proud," i didn't want it to be an easy queer thing.. just less obsessed about rules for guys and guys dealing with chicks... those sorts of observations are all so particular sometimes, hard-edged, hard to base something on, or something i like on. heh i give up, i just like fm more (though i do love sd).

i think a lot of the melancholy i get from the Dan comes from this sort of reactionary, look-at-the-stupid-hippies thing; they were surveying the ruins of the 60s when they got started and their preference for 'old' musical forms (jazz, rnb) can be seen as a sort of sad reversion back to old things that while familiar have this layer of dust, this remove from vitality; they saw that the summer of love ended in horror and disillusion and drew back. but this reversion back into 'dated' styles and ironic distance is not cold or heartless; its deeply emotional because they knew what had been lost

yeah maybe noone will know what i mean by this but I KNOW IM NOT WRONG

Each fragment moves about in space, operating in relation to each other instead of receding away from the listener into the tapestry of the mix. Hold me is a perfect example, where the sense of space is cramped with elements suddenly replacing each other, but glimpses into the centre of it reveal a tantalising emptiness.

This nails it. "Little Lies" and "Seven Wonders" use the same dynamics.

fleety stan
mealy flan
steetwood flack
hurting drunk

i like aja more than any fleetwood mac album but the answer here is clearly fleetwood mac, because of "dreams" and "sara" and "gypsy" and "empire state" and etc. etc. etc.

mr gay if SD beats FM i will quit ilx

-- deeznuts, Monday, July 28, 2008 3:39 PM (2 weeks ago) Bookmark Link

libcrypt on the ball!

I've heard both Sara and Tusk on shitty classic radio station at work over the last two days :]

If you really want to split up some ILM readers, make them choose between Steely Dan and The Minutemen.

I saw SD on Saturday and they were great as usual ... really cool setlist this time (better than last year) ... they played fucking "PARKER'S BAND"!!

very hard to choose between these two .. they are both so integral to so many different stages of my life .. with the gun to the head, I suppose I go FM for Lindsey's production genius and certain points in my life where their music meant everything to me. but SD totally fucking rule and only lose the race by about the same margin as the Serbian swimmer

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

SD easily, for consistency not least. I like the high points of Fleetwood but would never bother with their whole discography. btw, this guy must be on ilm

Steely Dan 63
Fleetwood Mac 59
Poem Rocket 8

mr gay if SD beats FM i will quit ilx

-- deeznuts, Monday, July 28, 2008 3:39 PM (1 month ago) Bookmark Link

Bye-bye deeznuts.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

Whoa got in before ILX System.

No mandate

poem rocket split the FM vote

Yes! The Dan rulz, what a shocker upset, I thought from the beginning of this thread that FM would win in a walk...

I love the fact that Poem Rocket have secured a little toehold of immortality via this poll.

They put out one of the best fake Throwing Muses songs I know on their last album.

did Poem Rocket cost Fleetwood Mac deserved victory or deny Steely Dan their rightful blowout? Historians will debate this question for years

I voted for Poem Rocket 4 times. I'm hella disappointed they didn't get more.

John D., so true, it is a philosophical debate for the ages, like colore vs disegno, or Coke Vs. Pepsi

JUSTICE

Poem Rocket 8

XD

Steely Dan 63
Fleetwood Mac 59

ILM is stupid

ILM wanted deeznuts to quit posting! (Also ILM sometimes has great taste)

What am I missing with Steely Dan?
To my (cloth) ears they just sound like the Beta Band with bigger yachts.

And what, precisely, is not awesome about that?

Haha that's great!

summation of thread:

deeznuts: Dude, Steely Dan comes across way too much as self-absorbed, shallow assholes to win this. FM all the way!

J0hn D.: Actually, SD opens up to you in all sorts of unexpected ways if you're into music theory and such...

(villagers said "Huzzah!")

deeznuts: But that's bullshit! Isn't that like gloating that Yngwe is on such another level that losers like Ron Asheton could never even see?

(Villagers said "Booo!")

J0hn D.: You never understood anything in yr entire life!!!

(But then J0hn D. made up for this by saying some nice things about Sara and everyone was like "J0hn D. for President!" Including me.)

and then there was Shakey...

hey Shakey, I like Steely Dan, too. Wanna know why?

I've become more familiar with the Dan as an adult (and as a musician) that's stemmed mostly from being rewarded with the depth and breadth of their material and being drawn in by that. Lyrically, compositionally, and performance-wise I just got really drawn into their catalog, its very rich in detail and unique and funny and biting and catchy and sounds near-effortless, which is the real magic of pop.

ILM rulez!

heard this guy on the radio talking about Steely Dan and couldn't help wondering if he was an ilxor.

Haha, that's the spirit mate! Only ilxors could be insane enough to actually dig Steely Dan. No sane person in the real world would ever choose Steely Dan over Fleetwood Mac. Also, didn't FM sell more records in the US? Ah, but I see I've been trolled now. I kept my mouth shut every time someone mentioned them when the Smiths vs. Cocteau Twins results were out. I knew these posters were only trolling and I was like "no way are we going to go through this goddamn Steely Dan thing again on ILM"

But this time I guess the trolls got me. There is no living reason in all of humankind why Steely Dan should have beat Fleetwood Mac in a poll. It's a grave injustice and I won't stand for it.

Never change Bimble!

Steely Dan have never rocked. Fleetwood Mac have. Fleetwood Mac wins.

aww. thanks guys.

I can live with these results. I listen to Fleetwood Mac more than Steely Dan, but Steely Dan wins because Fagen and Becker are hilarious interviews and brilliant lyricists, and the Mac folks come off as total rock star cartoons whenever they open their mouths off-stage or outside the studio. I mean, I'll rep for "Tusk" as my favorite album of all time, but I was just watching the "Rumours" Classic Albums disc and, jeez - I know the disc's creation was traumatic and all, but get over yourselves, Fleetwood Mac. Every single band big and small was swimming in drugs back then - including Steely Dan! But you don't hear Becker talking about his girlfriend's OD or whatever like it shook the world to its core or anything.

hahahahahhhahhaha

Great thread.

Bimble otm.

One of my favorite threads.