Love - Forever Changes Poll

you set the scene

choose the impossible

"A House Is Not a Motel" for me

Seriously impossible.

Now we're talking! Definitely "The Red Telephone," the absolute pinnacle of psychedelia in its cognitive dislocations, its gazeworthy minutiae, its desire to be all things to all people, to be one with all. But it's also a gutwrenching premonition of Arthur Lee's prison time and the counterculture's general inability to live up to its own ideals. And can we settle this once and for all: the line is "We're all normal WHEN we want our freedom" not "AND we want our freedom." When you get there, ask Arthur; he'll tell you the difference.

Then comes "You Set The Scene." Worst: "Bummer in the Summer"

"Worst: "Bummer in the Summer". i kinda like this little,simpe tune one.

i always skip "live and let live" or "the good humor".

I like this album but I haven't yet had one of those "classic album" moments with it when I realize that I love it more than anything. I guess I need to listen to it more maybe? I see a lot of people calling it their favorite album of the 60s both here and elsewhere.

My favorite song on it is "A House is Not a Motel"

"Alone Again Or" obviously

"Worst: "Bummer in the Summer". i kinda like this little,simpe tune one.

I like it too. But it's easily the worst song on the record, doesn't fit conceptually, all that.

you set the scene without any doubt

"Live and Let Live" cos it deserves at least one vote.

Hey, "The snot has caked against my pants" is itself worth a vote

Old man. As much as I try, I can't get into the second half of this album.

Practically impossible.

I was always sort of put off Arthur Lee for one reason.

He's always been cited as a genius, but his band's most famous song is not written by him (Alone Again or).

This meant that I came to their first three albums late, but exactly when I needed them.

Nowadays, this is one of my favourite albums of all time, without a doubt.

(Bryan ftw)

I voted for You Set The Scene but had to deliberate because Maybe the People Would Be the Times is so good as well.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa OTM
Side One is faultless, Side Two is a bit uneven. 'Red Telephone' is my choice.

Hey, "The snot has caked against my pants" is itself worth a vote

Yes OTM, MVB!!

He's always been cited as a genius, but his band's most famous song is not written by him (Alone Again or).

This meant that I came to their first three albums late, but exactly when I needed them.

I'm confused as to why that would make you come to the first three albums late. But "Alone Again Or" is not their most famous song. That would go to "7 and 7 Is" or "My Little Red Book."

But even if it were their most famous song, how on earth could that possibly dminish Lee's genius?

"It's Complicated"

OK, it's not really. More, at the time, if he was so great, it would be his song that was the most well know, as opposed to Bryan Maclean's or Burt Bacharach's.

I had heard too many rub bands that were influenced by "Forever Changes", to the point where when I heard it properly for the first time, I was all "my gog, they didn't even get close!"

(hey, I'm leaving that typo in there!)

"You Set the Scene" is the only song I really play off this anymore. I think Arthur Lee can be a bit overrated--his songs can sound a bit too much like children's rhymes for me--but I have had a few occasions when I've woken up to "You Set the Scene" vividly playing in my head, which I would consider to be the pivotal sign of greatness.

"I think Arthur Lee can be a bit overrated"

even if its true, his rare vocals talent and beauty is undeniable.
just compare "andmoreagain" with "7 and 7 is" and "signed d.c." (the later version.
it's like 3 different,great singers..

"The Red Telephone" for its exemplification of 1960s LA dread.

Old Man, ever since I saw Love at Glastonbury in 2003. The whole set was a beautiful moment of clarity for me, but when I got home, it was remembering Old Man that caught the essence of it.

And can we settle this once and for all: the line is "We're all normal WHEN we want our freedom" not "AND we want our freedom."

He's quoting Marat/Sade on this one; "We're all normal and we want our freedom" is a line the inmates in the asylum say.

But he quite clearly says WHEN on the recording itself despite what the Arthur Lee tribute album claims.

More, at the time, if he was so great, it would be his song that was the most well know, as opposed to Bryan Maclean's or Burt Bacharach's.

I thought they were teaching rockism in schools now.

I had heard too many rub bands that were influenced by "Forever Changes"

P.S. What's a rub band?

lol the idea I'm in school now.

Funnily enough, we were on a tour round a secondary school for Amber, the library had (amongst other things) NMEs going back ooh 30 issues?...

(not that that's rockism, etc)

rub = rubbish, Kevin.

this is difficult.....

But he quite clearly says WHEN on the recording itself despite what the Arthur Lee tribute album claims.

-- Kevin John Bozelka, Friday, October 5, 2007 2:16 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Link

not THAT clearly! ive never heard it as anything but "and."

'the red telephone'

but really fucking hard poll.

It's "and" on the "FC Concert" right?

You Set The Scene

"Maybe the People Would Be the Times or Between Clark and Hilldale"

I mean this is a hard one, but I love the way that each verse ends with an elipsis and the first word in the next verse inserts the missing word. Is that device called something?

Difficult choice. The only track I've never much liked is "Good Humor Man" - sounds like an "Orange Skies" retread to me - and even that one's got a nice skittering orchestral freakout at the climax.

I'm gonna go with "Daily Planet". Just like "You Set The Scene", it sounds like 2 or 3 little songs joined together, but unlike that album closer, it comes full circle: Begins with "Every morning we arise...", ends with "Look, we're going round & round" and begins again, another day of sirens and accidents on Go/Stop Boulevarde, etc.

"The Red Telephone" by a nose over "You Set the Scene"

OTM Dr Morbius!

I'm gonna go with "Maybe the People..." slightly over "A House Is Not a Motel."

yes, Morbs got it just about right
xpost

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

what?

I missed this. But probably would have gone for "Alone Again Or" anyway.

"old man" is a much better maclean song.
)and where is the love for "daily planet")

I voted for "Daily Planet"!

But I couldn't be unhappy with any set of results

I wanted to stage a rally or protest since my pick A House is Not A Motel didn't win. But I can't really complain since I liked all the candidates and feel that each gave their best effort and to lose to both You Set the Scene and Alone Again Or means that most people who voted probably got to the end of the album and that's very encouraging for all of us as we move into the future together.

Thank You. Now, c'mon, isn't it about time some wiseacre comes along and tells us why Reel to Real or whatever it's called is the REAL masterpiece. I'm game.

So any road: Now there's a "Collectors Edition" due shortly.

Disc 1 = Original stereo mix

Disc 2 = Stereo mix made in 1970 and used ever since, and also some extra tracks:

12. Wonder People (I Do Wonder) [outtake/previously unreleased]
13. Hummingbirds [demo/previously unreleased]
14. House Is Not A Motel [backing track/previously unreleased]
15. Andmoreagain [alt. electric backing track/previously unreleased]
16. Red Telephone
17. Woolly Bully [outtake/previously unreleased]
18. Alone Again Or [mono single mix]
19. Your Mind And We Belong Together [tracking sessions highlights]
20. Your Mind And We Belong Together
21. Laughing Stock

Woolly Bully [outtake/previously unreleased]

I'm thinking I could probably live without this

Well, I have the FC CD with the extra tracks, which are most of those, a Forever Changes Concert CD and DVD also, and I also got the original mono vinyl recently.

I think I'll make do with the downloads.

Woolly Bully [outtake/previously unreleased]

I'm thinking I could probably live without this

-- Tom D., Tuesday, April 1, 2008 3:15 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

hahaha yep. paid for this TWICE now, that's yer lot.

I'd be interesting to hear a mix of "Alone Again Or" with Bryan MacLean's lead vocal intact, before it was wiped, but that probably doesn't even exist anymore. So yeah, this looks pretty damn redundant. They managed to fit most of that stuff on a single disc last time 'round...

I've owned this 3 times but not buying it again.

I'd be interesting to hear a mix of "Alone Again Or" with Bryan MacLean's lead vocal intact, before it was wiped, but that probably doesn't even exist anymore.

Closest you can get is his solo version from 1972

Really? Never even heard of that! Oh, and I meant to say "IT'D be interesting". Or "I'd be interested", that works too.

I've owned it FOUR times since '86! ($0.25 for my first one, which had no cover.)

I've owned it three times - vinyl in 86 (the weird pressing which didn't fade out "A house is not a motel" so it just solo-d and solo-d until it just STOPPED - anyone else have this?), CD in 88 and remastered CD a few years back. My brother had original mono and stereo LPs, both CDs I had, and the "Love Story" double CD which had it in full as well.

On the one hand, my heart is thinking it's a good idea and I'd probably want it. On the other hand, my head (and wallet) are saying "Why bother?"

(the weird pressing which didn't fade out "A house is not a motel" so it just solo-d and solo-d until it just STOPPED - anyone else have this?)

I had this. I thought that's what it did on the original record? I thought it was changed to the fadeout for later reissues (like not fading out the title track on "Marquee Moon" - boo!)

Apparantly not. The real version fades out, but there were pressings made in the 80s which didn't fade out. In fact it makes for a better ending, I think.

Are you sure?

Absolutely. That's why my brother ended up buying the original mono and stereo LPs, to find out. I had my weird pressing first, then bought "Love Masters" which had the faded version, which intrigued me and my brother enough to get the original albums (he found them before I did). I remember reading about the weird pressing a few years back in a Fred Dellar page in Mojo or something like that. The full 'unfaded' version has never been issued on CD.

Strange! I prefer the abrupt ending too!

So, presumably, one of the discs will have this unfaded version.

Presumably two, track 14 (instrumental version) will not fade at the end...

so far on the extra disc--more piano in some cases, vocal mixes different, etc. "Wolly Bully" is cool; and it is only too bad that Love did not do it as a rock n roll tune instead of the folk-rock they play it as. on the other hand, Arthur Lee doing Sam the Sham and being a little embarrassed about it, therefore rendering it as folk-rock singalong, reminds me of his fellow Memphis native Alex Chilton doing the Kinks on Third. concept. FC is a great album.

But is there a version of "A house is not a motel" that doesn't fade out???

who is "Andmoreagain" written about?

one of Arthur Lee's girlfriends wasn't it...?

Really? Never even heard of that! Oh, and I meant to say "IT'D be interesting". Or "I'd be interested", that works too.

It's on the Ifyoubelievein CD that came out a couple years back
http://www.bryanmaclean.com/album/ifyoubelieveinalbum.htm

and the "Love Story" double CD which had it in full as well

Shit, I totally forgot about that one...Alright, I've bought Forever Changes FIVE times! No more, I swear.

This latest version is on Rhapsody, so I finally got to hear it (wasn't going to buy another reissue either).

What's funny is that while the alternate mix definitely isn't "better" or anything, it's different enough from what I'm used to that it's letting me hear the album w/somewhat fresh ears. Kinda wish that alternate mixes like this existed for a lot of other albums that I've played to death.

Wonder if it's on Spotify. I've owned this album at least 4 times and I don't really want to buy it again whether it's my fave album of all time or not.

it's different enough from what I'm used to that it's letting me hear the album w/somewhat fresh ears

so true
i heard the instrumental a house is not a motel and it was one of those things where the slightest variation means you're seeing something anew. so great

urgh, please stop, you are making me want to buy this deluxe edition. maybe i can just d/l from itunes ... like other people on this thread, i already own Forever Changes in multiple formats ...

by the time that I'm through singin'
the bells from the schools of walls will be ringin'
more confusion
blood transfusions
the news today will be the movies of tomorrow
and the waters turn to blood
and if you don't think so
go turn on your tub

down on door-stop boulevard it
never fails to bring me down
the sirens and the accidents and
for a laugh, there's plastic nancy
she's real fancy
with her children
they'll go far, she
buys them toys to
keep in practice
Waiting on the war...

(had I voted, I would've voted ^this)

What is happening and how have you been?

doing...good...?

sorry for the revive, just been listening to this album and wanted to invite others to sing along to choice parts...

(the attention does feel kind of nice though)

Making me want to listen again tbh

life goes on here
day after day
i don't know if i am living
or if i'm supposed to be
sometimes my life is so eerie
and if you think i'm happy
paint me (yellow) white

Disc 1 = Original stereo mix

Disc 2 = Stereo mix made in 1970 and used ever since

― Mark G, Tuesday, 1 April 2008 14:11 (3 years ago)

Is this right? This mix is so different and not preferable in my opinion. What versions of the album used this mix previously?

I guess it would make sense if the mix did come from 1970. The acoustic guitars cannot carry this album, though.

Kind of shocked to find out this is the version a lot of people have been listening to for a long time.

i wonder if the vinyl version my older brother had was the original mix. i remember listening to it for the first time, and the guitars on "live and let live" just leaping out of the speaker, which i don't feel like i've experienced with the rhino reissue from around 2000 or so.

The clips on iTunes will give you a good idea. The acoustic guitars are separated and dominate the stereo field much more on the "alternate mix."

yeah i'll check 'em out.

OK, just reading about it and I don't think the "alternate mix" was actually used before. The story about it is interesting:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/archive/index.php/t-235272.html

The "catch groove" ending on "Andmoreagain" used to bug me, the 'alt'mix has a normal ending.

I don't know which I prefer.

Always overlooked The Daily Planet but it keeps getting stuck in my head now.

I always wondered, is that Neil Young playing electric on that? The breaking-up-feedback bit?

i don't think so (at least I've never heard that he actually played on the record) -- what is it, he's credited with "arranging" the song?

Producing it, I think?

from wiki: "Originally, the album was to be produced by Botnick and Neil Young, but Young bowed out due to his commitments to Buffalo Springfield. However, according to the liner notes of the 1995 compilation Love Story, Young did stick with the album project long enough to arrange the track "The Daily Planet"."

I remember reading an interview with Arthurly years ago and him saying that Neil Young was brought into produce the album and how the rest of the band were all crying because they were too strung out to play - 'cept he didn't say Neil Young, he said "What was the name of that dude who sung "I've been to Redwood, I've been to Inglewood?"

Weird...for some reason, I remember seeing him credited with "lead guitar" on one song, but can't remember where I saw that. Also, wikipedia sez Jim Gordon played drums on "The Daily Planet," but I coulda sworn it was Hal Blaine (sounds more like Blaine anyway).

The sessions began in June 1967, with the group (except for Lee and Maclean) replaced by well-known Los Angeles session musicians Billy Strange (guitar), Don Randi (piano), Hal Blaine (drums) and most likely Carol Kaye (bass). This studio line-up was put in place due to the regular line-up's alleged inability to function. The two tracks recorded during these sessions, "Andmoreagain" and "The Daily Planet", were later given sparing overdubs by the actual members of Love, who felt the tracks otherwise sufficed.
Botnick recalls that the use of session musicians "sparked" the band, and they "realized they had blown it, got their act together and recorded the rest of the album". After much rehearsal, the group resumed work in August and continued through September, quickly laying down the remaining nine tracks, with a total estimated cost at $2,257.

i think i read an interview with carol kaye where someone asked her if she played on forever changes and she just laughed and said "honey i played on a lot of records." she may have also claimed to be the bass player on most of the buffalo springfield records!

Not sure about Blaine or Jim Gordon, I thought the band played on all the tracks after they'd stopped crying and straightened themselves up (for the duration of the recording of the album that is, then it was back to bad habits after it) (xxp)

"Listen Echols, I don’t understand how you can stay in one range through the whole thing. You’re the one who says you can blow in the studio, man."

xxp

Ah, so that's where I read it: further up on the wikipedia page! It's confusingly contradicted by listing Gordon further down, but it definitely sounds like Blaine.

guess both of those guys would be contenders for LA session drummers at the time.

Didn't know about Kaye's claim to have played on the Springfield's records...then again, she also claimed to have been the bassist on all the Motown hits, despite mountains of evidence and documentation to the contrary.

yeah should be taken with a grain of salt. i know she played on some of those records -- "expecting to fly" for sure.

For a laugh there's Plastic Nancy
She's real fancy with her children
They'll go far, she
Buys them toys to
Keep in practice
Waiting on the war

o_O

That Arthurly could sure write a lyric

I FEEL REAL PHONY WHEN MY NAME IS PHIL

or is that bill?

And "Red Telephone" even did the "...count me out (in)" a year before "Revolution 1"

This is such a damn fine album.

One thing I learned in the last year is that "Alone Again Or" is amazingly straightforward to play on guitar. I had thought it would be some fingerpicked jazz chord nightmare but it's really only 4-5 standard chords and arpeggios. So satisfying to sit down with my limited skills and rip it out.

No capo involved?

It's that "EChord" moved up a fret and back again, yeah? The easy "sounds a bit Spanish" strum.

The Phrygian Dominant? To get fancy.

It's a great album, but one I've maybe played too much at this point. There's really only 'Alone Again Or', 'The Daily Planet' and 'The Red Telephone' that I can listen to without wanting to skip it these days.

I've overplayed it too, but don't single out any particular tracks either way.

Sorry, just to complete the guitar nerd arc, it's not a shifting E chord exactly. The opening is picking D, D sus 2, D sus 4 (top E melody line runs 2-3-5-3-2-0-2-3-2-0-3-2), then arpeggio F#m barre chord with, then without the barre. Verse is barre F#, G, F#, open Em, A, D, Bm, barre F#, G, then alternate between open A, all open strings 4 times and back to open D!

love this album. but alone again or is such an obvious choice! second and third place tracks are pretty great

then arpeggio F#m barre chord with, then without the barre
What do you mean by without the barre? I thought I heard an Em9 in there when I just tried to play it seconds ago, i.e. an open E min chord with an F# in the D string.

I mean arpeggio 244222 then 044000, I may be wrong but it sounds convincing to me.

No you are probably right

I mean that is the same chord I was talking about but with a C# on the A string, which makes in even stronger. I guess you could call it in Em13.

"an" not "in"

You're right of course. I was just surprised I could play the thing.

Yeah, I never even bothered to try until last night after you mentioned it.

Do wish somebody would discover some live audio material from this time or earlier. Sounds from reading Michael Stuart Ware that Lee was pretty down on anybody he found recording him though.
Would have been really something if they'd played Monterey and there was footage. Looked for ages as though lee would just pull out of prestige performances without much warning. I think Stuart Ware talks about last minute cancellation of playing in Atlanta or Texas.

There's a fantastic long interview with John Ecchols in an Ugly Things from about 3 years back. In which he places a mixed race band more firmly in its time. Its about as revelatory as the Arthur lee memoir collected as John Einarson's Forever Changes book.

Michael Stuart Ware was the drummer who had also been in Sons of Adam and he wrote a book about a decade back called Behind The Scenes at The Pegasus Carousel which has since been updated. I haven't read the update.

Very interesting thanks.

top E melody line runs 2-3-5-3-2-0-2-3-2-0-3-2

Not to get finger-nit-picky but I hear, and definitely play, 2-3-5-5-5-3-2-3-2-3-2

I think ledge is right. It lingers longer on the A and there is no E melody note played.

I also do more travis picking than simple arpeggios and throw in a couple of hammer-ons in there, I'd like to say it's my interpretation but it's what the guy I learnt from on youtube did.

Yeah mine was just me thinking it out from memory and I fudge that bit anyway I think.

i wonder who'll it be tomorrow, you or me?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXpXw_DUMxg

<3

just passed 50th anniv about a week back

and it still sounds as great as ever

this is the time in life when i am living, and i'll face each day with a smile, for the time that i've been given's such a little while, and the things that i must do consist of more than style

\m/

Undying respect and Love for this album

The very same, as well as undying respect for Love in general... Personally, I spin Love, Da Capo and Four Sail as often as Forever Changes ... particularly Four Sail, which I still think is painfully underrated.

The people of clark and hilldale were robbed

You know, I see a lot of people that like Four Sail, actually. I am certainly one of them!

Out Here has a lot of really good songs comparable to those on Four Sail also.

I've gotta listen to Four Sail right this second.

False Start is another great one, with The Everlasting First belonging in the top rank of their oeuvre. Featuring a killer guitar solo by Jimi Hendrix.

i like robert montgomery off four sail

anyway, happy birthday forever changes xx

is it Johnny Echols who plays the solo on "Live and Let Live"?

No reason not to think it isn't.

... er. No reason to think it isn't. Rather. LOL.

sure, just wanted to be surer, for no important reason. an incredible solo obv !

Maybe the People is the sound of summer, every summer since '67

I don't think I will ever tire of hearing Forever Changes. One of those records, like Odessey and Oracle, that has this incredible ability to retain its freshness for me.

Maybe the People Would Be the Times or Between Clark and Hilldale (what a strange title) is toe-curling-joyous (my translation of the french "jouissif"). So lively, and this lead guitar melody repeated by the one-note repetition of the trumpets is genius. I wasn't familiar with this particular song, for only listening to the more famous ones, but now I have it on repeat. I prefer it to the more elaborate guitar compositions.

The whole album's a killer, man. Every last song is fantastic.

maybe the people is so good, love it when Arthur Lee sings over the trumpets too

my vote would've been a dead heat between that and you set the scene, but yeah this is a front-to-back classic

Was it on this board or somewhere else in my years past internet forum fumblings that there was this completely absurd backlash against this album? It was entirely based upon this really trolltastic revision that Arthur was a late-60s hipster / scenester doofus that was just trying to get chicks or something.

tbf a lot of great albums were made by late 60s hipster scenester doofuses just trying to get chicks

lol otm

70s, 80s, 90s hipster doofuses as well.

Live and Let Live deserved better than one vote here.

I know, but I seem to remember this lot was trying to say the album was trash because of that.

It was extremely try-hard and had nothing to do with the actual music.

“Andmoreagain” always seems to me to be some kind of El Lay take on a British folk thing, like their version of “Fotheringay” or something.

I just got this album in March.

You just got a hold of it or you just “got” it, as in understood it?

One of the many things I love about this record:

- side 1 ends with a repeated i - I progression - stasis
- side 2 ends with a repeated V - I progression - completion

Still have not heard that version of “A House Is Not a Motel” with the sudden stop, predating “I Want You (She’s So Heavy)” by a good two years. That’s how the song originally was supposed to end but they were talked out of it by Elektra. HOWEVER, it did appear on some obscure ‘80s Canadian pressing of the album.

The version I had must have been obscure and Canadian in that case... except I'm pretty sure it wasn't.

When I bought a vinyl reissue of Forever Changes in England in the 1980s , it definitely had the sudden stop version of A House is Not a Motel and for a long time I thought that was the ONLY version.

This fan remix/remaster is pretty awesome

https://www.profstoned.com/2022/08/love-forever-changes-remixed-prof.html