Joy Division: Classic Or Dud?

Gods. As most everyone else did, I'd bet, I came to them through New Order, but thankfully my timing was such that 1) _Substance_ (the JD one) had just come out around the time I got my first CD player and 2) I had learned about the JD/NO connection around that time as well through a quite good article on both of them in _Musician_ in 1988, of all places. So while Ian's voice and the early sound threw me a bit (I mean, you listen to _Brotherhood_ or the NO _Substance_ and then you hear "Warsaw" and it's like, "Huh?"), it didn't take long for me to be quietly enthralled. The rest followed naturally. I still am really * really* jealous of a friend who got to see them in the UK in 1979 on a visit. Lucky bastard.

"Transmission" in particular -- man. That song is a cold blue laser light of power, and I can't put it any other way, really.

CLASSIC CLASSIC CLASSIC. In every imaginable sense of the word. (Although, I will argue that many of the songs are so brilliant in and of themselves that they can be interpreted in alomst any manner imaginable and still be fantastic.)

Wait, I think Tom thinks Joy Division are crap but for a handful of songs. Or maybe that's Fred. Or maybe I made this person up.

but that's the only joy division track i need and i've listened to a lot. they mostly strike me as plodding and entirely uninteresting, largely due to curtis's monotone. i've never "connected" with them, so here's the question: is there anyone here who rates them classic and doesn't relate to the lyrics? or who gets by on them for purely musical reason, i.e. melody and backing music?

I'm normally a big one for lyrics but I think Ian Curtis' were pretty dire - all that Ballard-rip-off stuff and the existential pomp of it all. Salvaged a bit by his voice, which I do like a lot. I don't even think "Atmosphere" has good lyrics. "Love Will Tear Us Apart" has BRILLIANT lyrics which from an artistic p.o.v. is the saddest thing about his death - that it seems like a breakthrough in terms of writing humane but unflinching stuff about relationships. But lyrically, generally, dud.

But the music! Bloody hell - the drive and claustrophobia and dynamics and Martin Hannett's production....it's extraordinary. A lot of it is Hannett and I think it's a shame that AFAIK I'm the first person to mention him in this thread. But that band could motor - "Dead Souls", for example, where the lyrics are pretty much irrelevant next to the huge concrete smack of the music. No, for the music, classic.

I love the sound. I love the feel. I love the way Ian Curtis sings. Simple as that. I don't understand how you can love Atmosphere for its atmosphere but dislike the rest of their songs, which have similar-if-not-better atmosphere.

actually, it seems the qualities i admire in "atmosphere" share similarities with the qualities of the earlier cure tracks that i like, e.g. "all cats are grey," "faith," and "the same deep water as you." all have warm, heavy basslines and occasional shimmering keyboards and thudding drums, beautiful instrumentation clashing with the morosity of the lyrics and singer. make of that what you will!

Perhaps they were conjoined twins, and after the operation everyone involved decided it would be best if one of the little tots were shipped across the ocean, so everyone could get on with their lives and forget about the trauma of the birth. ;-)

Oh, and Joy Division? Classic. But Tanya has had the audacity to steal my Ian Curtis joke from Duel, so she had better watch her step in the future. If I see her, I will be forced to kick her ass and steal her boyfriend.

kris: you might prefer the earlier joy division where curtis used a more expressive vocal style.

IC is gloomy: the band (by then) are anything but gloomy

this only applies to closer and maybe (from memory) "atmosphere" — and of course the jangly OMD-tribute "love will tear us apart", a hugely overrated release that would have been immeasurably improved if Dan Perry had supplied lyrics (cf sexual healing classic or dud)

to me, curtis and the others were growing apart anyway (they were outgrowing HIM — this being an unspoken element in the whatever surrounding his death)

when it first came out, Kumar, percussionist in the band I then played guitar in, who was JD-besotted, explained that it was a great title because it meant two things, depending on how you pronounced it:

closer soft s: i.e. the last LP they would make now Curtis was gone

closer hard s: i.e. closer to what the record they meant to make all along

I saw this new vinyl record yesterday called Warsaw, which would seem to be all early JD recordings. Has anyone heard this ? Is it a for- fanatics-only kind of deal ? I like the early songs on Substance a lot.

ned: i actually got into no via jd. as a rocker, i hated no growing up. i was introduced to jd by a fan of emo and post-rock. i'd been curious for a while because of all the awestruck rock criticism, which often made strange comparisons to the velvet underground, whom i liked. once i heard _closer_ i listened to nothing else for a week. after i got all the jd records i bought the first few no records.

Heard the live version of Transmission off Still where the instrumentation starts to fall off and all you hear is Curtis SCREAMING...

DANCE DANCE DANCE DANCE DANCE TO THE RADIO.

Damn near gave me nightmares. Classic.

I saw them live 4 times in 1979/80, and the Preston gig album kinda sums it up - you never knew if they were going to be either awful and beset with equipment problems or overwhelmingly great. Frequently they would veer from one extreme to the other, and it was always touch and go whether Ian would make it through the set. I still think this is how live music should be though - LIVE!

There will be more live album releases, but I hope not too many. I've heard rumours of cleaned-up radio broadcasts of the Paris and Amsterdam shows, which have been available as bootlegs for ages. I hope one or both is released, and then let's leave it at that.

If anyone was wondering how good JD could be live, then get this and don't bother with the live half of 'Still'/'Preston'/disc 4 of 'Heart and Soul'.

1)The mawkish, morbid 'Cult of Ian' that emerged following his suicide ('he died for you') was more than a Cobain-like outburst of fan mourning. It was openly encouraged by Factory eg the cover of 'Closer', the Anton Corbijn video for 'Atmosphere' (which even Rob Gretton found dubious), and 'Anthony' Wilson's attempts to position Curits alongside the likes of Hendrix and Jones in the pantheon of dead rock geniuses. All highly questionable ("the flogging of a corpse" Paul Morley).

2) The band flirted with neo-fascism, in style if not substance; 'you all forget Rudolf Hess', the choice of name (and then New Order). Curtis, a complex figure, was very right-wing and, according to his widow, possibly racist. In that light the despair of his lyrics, and longing for 'purity' can emerge in a very different, and sometimes sinister light.

3)They were sonic visionaries however. Sumner listened to Chic, Curtis Kraftwerk and Krautrock. Hooks low-bass rumblings allied to Morris's astonishing drumming created a sound that will endure. They shone like diamonds. As a 16 year old I heard 'Love will tear us apart' on the radio and within weeks had left for Manchester by train with my savings to buy as many Joy Division records I could find/afford. They were a life-changing force and I will always revere them.

Mike - sadly, Stevo is correct - it's not possible to ignore the fact that JD used fascist imagery. Look at the cover of the Ideal for Living EP, the content of No Love Lost, Leaders of Men, They Walked in Line...

Maybe you can USE fascist imagery without BEING a fascist. I'd say they were pretty thoughtless, young and stupid, that's all.

This thread pop up on Usenet every now and then, and to give you the answer first: NO!!! This thread, however, did not start on Usenet or Internet. It started in the british music press more than 15 years ago, and since Joy Division gave very few interviews the rumours were allowed to grow in the press. Here's a few points to clear up things: > The version of "At a later date" that appear on the "Short Circuit" compilation opens with Bernard shouting "You all forgot Rudolf Hess!". At that time Rudolf Hess, 83 years old, had been imprisoned at the Spandau prison in East Berlin for more than 30 years. You don't have to be a nazi to feel sympathy for a sick old man that was heavily guarded by some 100 KGB soldiers. > According to Fernando Lopez-de-Victoria: Bernard (and perhaps Ian in some obscure interview) has noted that they like the regalia and art (?) of the Nazi's, but in no way liked their philosophy. This can be seen in some of their artwork, for example: > Bernard made the design for "An Ideal For Living", it included a drawing of a Hitler-jugend-look-alike drummer boy. But on the same fold-out sleeve there's a famous picture from the Warsaw ghetto during 2WW: A young Jewish boy standing with his hands up in the air being guarded by a nazi storm-trooper. Now, is that good nazi propaganda ? > The name Joy Division was associated with nazism, journalists didn't like it (the same thing happened with New Order). As you can read somewhere else in this FAQ "Joy Division" really has a connection to nazism: It was chosen from a book that describes the horrors in a nazi camp during 2WW, not the prosperous future... "Through the wire-screen the eyes, of those standing outside, looked in at her, as into the cage of some rare creature in a zoo. In the hand of one of the assistants she saw the same instrument which they had, that morning, inserted deep into her body. She shuddered instinctively. No life at all in the House of Dolls. No love lost."

This verse from Cetinsky's "The House Of Dolls" was included on the version of "No love lost" from recording session (2).

The weird thing is that many other punk-bands used much more direct nazi symbolism in their relation with the press, and still got away with it!! Though the press never got to interview Joy Division about this topic they could have checked Joy Division's lyrics. If they had they wouldn't have found a shred of nazi propaganda, on the contrary! Take for example "They walked in line": "All dressed in uniforms so fine, they drank and killed to pass the time. Wearing the shame of all their crimes, with measured steps, they walked in line

They carried pictures of their wives and number tags to prove their lives, and made it through the whole machine with dirty hearts and hands washed clean."

And, to really tear down the nazi rumour: Joy Division have participated in a Rock Against Racism benefit concert (at Kelly's in Manchester 12 October 1978) and an Amnesty International benefit concert (at Eric's in Liverpool 3 May 1979). To summarize: I can't find any evidence that JD has shown any sympathy with fascism/nazism, only the contrary. ++++++

so as not to plagarise.

Sure you can.

i always found this argument dubious. given the number of oppressed political prisoners in the world, why feel special sympathy for a nazi? ic might have made the statement to mean "you all forgot what rudolf hess did as a nazi" or something though.

The funny thing about the liner notes is that the kids next door have formed a ska punk band. They sound awful, but I think they're using a riff from a JD song in one of their songs.

Damning with faint praise here, I think.

I am attached to the idea of Unknown Pleasures and Closer being albums, so the thought of having their tracks simply included on a set like Hear & Soul doesn't quite do it for me.

Yup. I haven't been in a JD mood for a while, but when I am I just listen to the box set. I really like the track listing actually (singles, peel sessions and whatnot before and after Unknown Pleasures and Closer on Discs 1 & 2 respectively).

I'm normally a big one for lyrics but I think Ian Curtis' were pretty dire - all that Ballard-rip-off stuff and the existential pomp of it all. Salvaged a bit by his voice, which I do like a lot. I don't even think "Atmosphere" has good lyrics. "Love Will Tear Us Apart" has BRILLIANT lyrics which from an artistic p.o.v. is the saddest thing about his death - that it seems like a breakthrough in terms of writing humane but unflinching stuff about relationships. But lyrically, generally, dud.

But the music! Bloody hell - the drive and claustrophobia and dynamics and Martin Hannett's production....it's extraordinary. A lot of it is Hannett and I think it's a shame that AFAIK I'm the first person to mention him in this thread. But that band could motor - "Dead Souls", for example, where the lyrics are pretty much irrelevant next to the huge concrete smack of the music. No, for the music, classic.

exactly.

Heh. Well I'm already getting used to it, listening to it again.
I'm d/ling the whole box set right now. I only ever had Substance growing up.
That was a little jarring the first time I heard it - a little alarm went off.
It totally sounds like he just fucked up a couple times and never got around to overdubbing it.
But then the song's called "Disorder" so whatever.

ihttp://users.net1plus.com/steff/ian3.jpg

Just downloaded the video of JD playing "Transmission" on a television show in September 1979. Extremely disturbing to watch -- Curtis looks terribly ill in it, and it is edited very obviously so that one sees as little of him as possible.

"Transmission" is the greatest song of all time.

I'm not sure if I could rock an Ian Curtis bookbag, but I at least want the option.

That's a really flattering picture of Ian Curtis. Cool.

And Joy Division = classic classic classic.

I mean, "Transmission" and "Love Will Tear Us Apart" are absolutely essential & classic tunes, but as a whole, I just don't get it. I also agree with Tom's assessment that lyrically they're pretty dire, but would also add that I think Hannet's production on the drums was not up to snuff; they sound more often than not like full jugs of water. I'm basing all of this on Substance, BTW.

ARAGHADFADFGA HDFASDFASD.

(That was my inarticulate expression of jealousy. Please note my comments about "Transmission" at the start of the thread.)

The great thing about Tom's argument is that it's a FINE argument for why lyrics need not be paramount. ;-)

GET UNKNOWN PLEASURES AND CLOSER NOW THEN DAMMIT!!!

Likewise the "Dance, dance, dance, dance, dance to the radio" in Transmission - a lyric so startlingly out of place here, seemingly flown in from a top 10 pop hit. Again the delivery is brutal.

Also "Where have they been? " (Decades)

Tom's point about LWTUA is well-made. Also Ceremony ("All she asks the strength to hold me/then again the same old story"). Actually these are brilliant lines, simply brilliant. Also the first line of the song is fantastic : "This is why events unnerve me".

-- Ned Raggett (ne...), September 16th, 2004.

OTM.

ANyway, Joy Division rocks! I still haven't picked up the box set, what's wrong with me, etc

http://www.easterncoastcostume.com/Pages/crowns/strawman.jpg

i sure hope they're a joke.

staple guns?

actually i suspect a *lot* of writers do something very like this, but morley is the only one i'm aware of who uses such nakedly useless stretches of deliberately(?) tiresome "literary" playfulness to mark the Three Chilling Dots (like [INSERT REALITY HERE] , and not using words which merely divert or move or distort to do so...])

(i didn't "get" this till i read ±nothing, whgere it's unavoidable)

so the tension is something like: clearly very able and literate writer who is also very extremely unusually perceptive abt ppl's motivations and feelings, deliberately choosing a style which contantly occludes and gets in the way of the blunt of expression of same....

-- mark s (mar...) (webmail), August 7th, 2003 1:58 PM. (mark s) (link)

"And so all of this bled fed wed and headed dead or alive into the drastic mind and body of Joy Division (who were outgrowing their mind and body and packing more time into the time they had than they had time for) and all of this, all these coincidences and transmissions and transitions and (r)apt moments and exotic settings and mild distortions, it all added up, and put them into this unique position where they were both the last ever great rock group (after The Velvet Underground, The Stooges, MC5, The Doors, Television, the Sex Pistols) and the first ever great rock band (before The Pixies, My Bloody Valentine, Nine Inch Nails, Nirvana, Smashing Pumpkins, Radiohead) ... they were some twisted turning point some tunnel of light and dark and love and hate that you must journey through from one era to the next if you are to make any new sense... Joy Division summoned up in a rocket shell in their time and place all the great rock - surface and substance, pose and power - that there ever was and ever will be."

haha i like that sentence:

i. it has terrific rhythmic poise, and.
ii. is pitch-perfect in its invocation of mockable faux innocence, as a mask for actual genuinely (silly but knowingly silly) belief

-- mark s (mar...) (webmail), August 7th, 2003 2:41 PM. (mark s) (link)

the sentence in question has been very effective in getting us to disagree and explore more than the merely bald author-transparent journalistic report and/or critical claim being, er, claimed = it is doing the work it intended to do = it is a good sentence not a bad sentence (= the writer is not afraid to use "bad writing" — and thus the trashing of his own reputation as a stylist — as a device to produce lively, autonomous thinking on the part of the writer)*

(*i'm being a bit devil's advocate here in the sense that i think this device quite often fails w.morley, who uses it A LOT, risking catastrophe on a routine basis... i approve of this w/o always being convinced by it...)**

(**it's like football or something: a goal is better if it looked like it was a real mad thing to try but still goes in)***

(***i know fuck all abt sport)

-- mark s (mar...) (webmail), August 7th, 2003 4:01 PM. (mark s) (link)

i like mark s, but like a lot of his posts his reading is--how you say in UK?--too clever by half.

if it's not a parody, then it's truly pathetic.

I think it's a problem Curtis had in general. "24 Hours" starts out great and then he throws in that bastardized Shakespeare "A cloud hangs over me/Marks every move".

With "Dead Souls", I don't think "Imperialistic house of prayer/Conquistadors who took their share" is meaningless. It makes sense, I think, in that he's looking at human history ("Figures from the past stand tall") and seeing nothing but oppression and exploitation. It is rather overblown though - in this and other qualities, he sort of reminds me of Neil Peart as a lyricist sometimes (seem to somehow be fixated with 19th century concerns, overblown 'literary' language, moralistic sense, near-solipsistic macho-geeky perspective). Of course he's very different in others and sometimes wrote some brilliantly introspective lines.

I like "Shadowplay" and "Colony" lyrically.

this is really sweet.

If I find extra, I will steal them and auction them here.

It hasn't.

I love the writing in box set.

did you ignore this bit form that mark s post amt:

''actually i suspect a *lot* of writers do something very like this, but morley is the only one i'm aware of who uses such nakedly useless stretches of deliberately(?) tiresome "literary" playfulness to mark the Three Chilling Dots (like [INSERT REALITY HERE] , and not using words which merely divert or move or distort to do so...])''

To answer yr first q: why shouldn't it be in a box set?

Its so sincere by being insincere. I read the liner notes to the boxset many years ago - got a copy from my record library, taped some of it and gave it back - but I remember being baffled by it, but I didn't mind that. It was prob the first time I read morley.

Ha ha actually now that I think on it, I bought Closer because I read an interview with Thom Yorke saying that Radiohead based "Street Spirit" on a Joy Division template. When I got the album and it was so (to my ears) drudgy and leaden I felt very betrayed. The whole thing sounds a lot more beautiful and shimmering to my ears now though. That two chord guitar riff in "Heart & Soul"!

Re: the synthesisers on the Warsaw demos mentioned upthread - I had heard that they were added by some meddling studio engineer, that the band hated them and that it was part of why they didn't release the album on RCA. Whereas from reading 24 Hour Party People I get the sense that the band just let M.H. dictate to them soundwise.

That live gig is very poorly recorded and I wasn't surprised when another live set wz released separately.

I got far more out of Closer than unknown pleasures, which I always seemed to lose interest in after the first couple of songs. The guitars fade into the background a lot more throughout 'closer', as I recall, which kind of follows onto new order.

They sound (to me) as if they were genuinely despairing as opposed to sounding as if they were just feeling sory for themselves and wanting attention.

"The manic depressive who used to call me at 2am threatening to kill herself certainly wasn't a spotty teenager, but that doesn't make her "better" than one.

I think you're going way beyond / beneath how either band sound now.

Lest there be any misunderstanding though, let me make it absolutely clear that I was a fan of Joy Division while they were going and (to extend your comparison in the direction that it appears to me to be going) I most certainly don't believe that Ian Curtis having hanged himself is in any way "better" than Thom Yorke not having done so!

Mind you, The Cure didn't have much of a "goth" following in those days either as far as I can recall!

Whether or not the reason that the goths subsequently became interested in JD was a direct consequence of Ian Curtis death or the manner thereof I really wouldn't wish to speculate....

The clothes?

I think not!

Goth pin-ups?

I can't see too many goths being over-enamoured of Steven Morris' nice smart striped shirt either.

let's play word association! interpol... acne!

Joy Division are not usually thought of as being goth, despite being referred to as "gothic" at the time, but their influence on goth bands was
considerable. Their sparse, haunting sound was quite unlike anything else around at the time and spawned a host of imitators, especially after
Ian Curtis' death (Bauhaus' first album and the Sisters' first single were both slammed as being the work of poor Joy Division copyists, which
was rather unfair on Bauhaus). Their use of minimalist and gothic art on record covers also had a lasting influence (for instance, the cover to
the March Violets "Grooving in Green", designed by Andrew Eldritch, has definite similarities to the cover of "Closer").

Additionally, they were a major source of the term "gothic" as applied to post-punk music.

However, Joy Division were never a part of the goth scene; the goth scene proper started to emerge around 81/82, by which time Ian Curtis was
long dead.

They were never really regarded as "goth" musically by goths, either, despite the obvious debts owed to them by a lot of goth bands. A lot of
first-era goths viewed them as too "mainstream" owing to their posthumous popularity; also, their image was rather too bleak (from a Batcave
point of view, they were decidedly unsexy). And they had their own following, the "long raincoat brigade".

I completely disagree, Joy Division = Urban Decay, VU = Heroin/S&M, JAMC = Motorcycles/Oral Sex. None of them = vampires/lace/eyeliner. I mean they all wear black, but so do The Raiders (who are actually more goth than those bands).

are you a very very old person?

They're great! Or I should say she's great, one woman band.

Can someone do a friendster search on JD? then we can see what else their fans like.

I think amt's pinefox impression wz worse than when raggett did it on some other thread. Can't blame you tho' - its hard to do.

I completely disagree, Joy Division = Urban Decay, VU = Heroin/S&M, JAMC = Motorcycles/Oral Sex. None of them = vampires/lace/eyeliner. I mean they all wear black, but so do The Raiders (who are actually more goth than those bands).

-- Spencer Chow (spencercho...), September 17th, 2004.

those bands might not be goth but c'mon, the 'goth' aesthetic (in rock music) as we know it wouldn't exist the way it does without those bands.

JOY DIVISION WERE FRANZ FERDINAND!

i guess it prolly differs from goth to goth (heh). all the goths i've known personally were DEFINITELY into Joy Division.

"Good, good..."

blood test, dude.

x-post

The "Futurist" tag appeared in September 1980, as follows:

From George Gimarc's Post-Punk Diary for Monday September 15 1980:

STEVO the DJ at Billy's club and general provider of the soundtrack to the new scene brewing in the electronic underground, has his top 20 current records
list published in Sounds under the heading "Futurist Playlist". Top tracks are Joy Division "Isolation", Gary Numan and "I Die You Die", Bowie's "Ashes to
Ashes", Bauhaus with "Terror Couple Kill Colonel" and Gina X and "Do It Yourself". At #6 is Fad Gadget and "Fireside Favourite", B-Movie with "Soldier
Stood Still", Gary Numan's "Aircrash Bureau" and "Telekon", and a demo from Blancmange of "I've Seen The Word". Other groups present are Modern
English, Pere Ubu, Throbbing Gristle, Human League, YMO, Iggy Pop and Last Dance. Several months from now Stevo will confess to the NME that "...the
tag Futurist is a bunch of crap. I took a chart of the most popular electronic music I was playing as a DJ into Sounds and said to them 'put it in but don't call it
'Eurorock' or anything like that'. I grab hold of the paper a week later and it says 'Futurist'. I hate all this stopid tagging."

Despite Stevo's disclaimer, "Futurist" was seen by some as a useful tag for an emerging movement, and there were actually "Futurist" nights
at some nightclubs. The movement was seen by some as an avant-garde version of/reaction to the "pop" New Romantic scene, with the most
important bands being John Foxx-era Ultravox and Gary Numan. However, the movement seems to have suffered from the lack of a coherent
identity and never became a subculture as such.

The tag, however, became popular for a while- in an interview in Sounds in January 1981, Blancmange denied being Futurist ("I'm not a
Futurist. I hate that word. What we do is more like experimental new music") whilst Depeche Mode laid claim to the term in an attempt to evade a
worse one ("OK, we're Futurists. We've always been Futurists. For me, Futurusts were an extension of punk rock. We never had anything to do with New
Romantics. They all looked the same. Bunch of flaming sissies! But call us what you like. Ultra pop. Fiturist, Disco. Anything so long as it's not New
Romantic").

ha ha ha ha! I assume this was meant in jest, and if so, good one.

Latebloomer, while I sympathise with your point of view in other respects, I believe goth would have existed without JAMC - in fact, it did.

Thanks to Scott Seward for pointing out that when JD were going there WAS no goth scene to speak of. If there was, JD might have dressed differently. MIGHT have. Instead they dressed pretty normally and forced you to concentrate on their music. Another reason why they're ace. I pulled out U.P. last night, spurred by the person here who kept saying he thought the bass line from Disorder was out of tune (on another thread somewhere). He (she?) regretted and retracted it later, but wow. Hooky out of tune is like...he can't be out of tune because more often than not he calls the tune everyone else seems to play around. If he were out of tune the whole thing would fall apart.

I warn you guys, though I tend to get hysterical at goth-related jokes, so try to keep it at a minimum. I'm rather horrified at the way Franz Ferdinand singer has copied Stephen Morris' striped shirt above.

But Radiohead can often be brooding no? They certainly have made some pretty depressing music. When I think of happy music, RH is not the first to come to mind.

Just came across the lyrics for George Harrison's "Only a Northern Song" and realized they were strangely appropriate for this thread:

If you're listening to this song
You may think the chords are going wrong
But they're not
He just wrote it like that

When you're listening late at night
You may feel the bands are not quite right
But they are
They just play it like that

It doesn't really matter what chords I play
What words I say
Or time of day it is
As it's only a Northern Song

It doesn't really matter what clothes I wear
Or how I fare
Or if my hair is brown
When it's only a Northern Song

If you think the harmony
Is a little dark and out of key
You're correct
There's nobody there

And I told you there's no one there

yeah they also did the theme song for 'one day at a time' but the network thought it was too 'peppy'.

The synths that come in on the verses make it.

i'm almost completely musicially illiterate, so i don't think my efforts to explain how "love will tear us apart" works contributed very much to anyone's understanding of the song. so i'm not sure i should posit my own posts as any kind of positive example. but i know that "love will tear us apart" has always struck me as a very involving song (such that i will often listen to it several times in a row). yet most criticism about it tends to adopt very very vague impressionistic, almost mystical language to explain its power and the charms of joy division in general. but i think that's dodging the real "problem." to quote tim on the "formalist criticism" thread, from one of my favorite posts ever made on ilm:

How does a given piece of music "cast a spell" over us? Too much non-formal music resorts to quasi-mythic terminology at that point, but the spell in question is really a piece of elaborate charlatanism, a confluence of sonic tactics which, in the mind or the body of the listener, appears to be something more than a series of discrete sounds. What is it that is allowing to a piece of music to do this to us (both at a "textual" and contextual level)?

to be fair i think your comment falls somewhere a little bit closer on the spectrum to stylistic description than tim's "quasi-mythic terminology." but it doesn't really help me *hear* "transmission." i find a lot of criticism like that. (including my own informal criticism.)

You can't separate the two things. The tightness of the groove in James Brown or whatever is a concrete phenomenon that can be measured and analyzed. The "spell" is not a metaphysical thing; it's made up of real components

That said, there's something about JD's sound that lends itself to being heard as gray or grayish blue (as opposed to, say, purple or pink). I'm not sure why, offhand, one hears the guitar and bass sounds this way. Perhaps the "starkness" of the production makes the listener feel like he or she is in some large, urban space. There's also the robotic character of the music. Ian Curtis' voice is very robotic on that track. And robots, of course, are gray (or silver).

http://www.totalmetal.ru/upload/reviews/pic226.jpg

Check it:

Numbness

Vainly I search the snow
For the footprint she left
When arm in arm with me
She passed along the green meadow

I long to kiss the ground
Pierce both ice and snow
With my burning tears
Until I see the soil beneath

Where shall I find a blossom
Where find green grass?
The flowers are dead
And the turf has a wan look

Is there then no memory
That I may take from here?
When my sorrow is stilled
Who shall tell me of her?

My heart feels dead
Within it her image gazes coldly
When my heart thaws again
Her image too will flow away

I used to follow them around the country and there were various gangs, mainly from Manc/Burnley/Preston/Macclesfield areas + a few of us from the other side of the pennines like me. There were no goths whatsoever, but hang on...were there really goths in 1979/80?? Didn't that all coalesce 3 or 4 years later. All the folks I used to talk to that followed JD were either the long overcoat brigade, football hooligans/beer boys + the odd mad Belgian.

**"Love Will Tear Us Apart" is the one Joy Division song I don't "get" all the hype about because it's a good melody but there's NO HARMONY WHATSOEVER IN THE HOOK WTF WHY ARE THE BASSLINE, SYNTH, AND IAN CURTIS' VOICE ALL FOLLOWING THE SAME MELODY LINE **

Bollocks! Listen to the second synth line (playing 5ths I think)

*Gulp*

Taking Sides: The Mission v. The Sisters of Mercy

Too right. They definitely sold out by then. I like 'Gutz' best. Thx Bye.

There were certainly proto-goths about then - people taking stylistic cues from Siouxsie and Dave Vanian and starting to add make-up and vampire chic to the basic punk look and I'm pretty sure the word goth(ic) was in use to decribe them.

As I recall there were generally a lot of different movements starting to emerge in the wake of punk - the long overcoat brigade, the new brutalists, the futurists, the Blitz kids, the proto-crusty / proto-traveller hippy / anarchist punks.

A lot of these movements split up and merged with eachother in diffrenet combinations and disappeared and Goth was one of the ones that emerged out of these different elements.

Of course The Batcave didn't appear 'til a little later and I'm not sure there were any bands actually describing themselves as goth at the time - although there certainly were some who were subsequently adopted by the goths and some that would later describe themselves as goth.

I was busy flapping around in a long overcoat.

We do go to an awful lot of the same gigs 'though....

The first thing that couyld be fairly be called "Goth" in the uk that I remember was UK Decay and "positive punk". Posipunk!! Stu P Didiot!

Joy Div were great, and I can honestly say that few other bands have meant as much to me over the years (creak, creak)

Let's not also forget The Pack (who morphed into Theatre Of Hate), The Mob, Rudimentary Peni, Zounds....

I was never too sure what these bands were supposed to be so "Positive" about 'cos they all semed quite gloriously pissed off to me!

Interview with Annik Honoré

The Belgian music magazine, Side-Line, has interviewed Annik Honoré for
their 52th Summer issue. Honoré had a relation with Ian Curtis up until the moment he died in 1981. She has always refused talking about the matter in public although Curtis ex-wife was not exactly flattering about her in interviews over the years. She has granted an exception to Side-Line Music Magazine. In the interview Honoré talks about the why she decided to speak openly and what Ian meant to her.

And Yes, very big news. I wonder what language it's in or if there's a translation. I'll try to track it down.

http://www.side-line.com/index.

-- Ally (lilbabynothin...), April 5th, 2001.
i agree - i put it on in the background as i surf ge net but can't whistle or hum or sing anything except "love will tear us apart".i can't hear the verse in that song.

hahahahah, that's superb. i mean, totally wrong and everything, but superb all the same.

sure, sing all you want. but don't make it the meat of the song.

er: but surely that's the listener's choice, to choose what's the "meat of the song"? i can understand curtis's voice grating slightly, but it's no higher in the mix than 99 per cent of other vocalists. christ, i love a whole load of bands with appalling lyrics, but ... i don't get offended by them. (except morrissey, natch.)

as discussed at length elsewhere on ILM, lyrics usually only work in conjunction with the rest of the song, as part of the whole - out of context they can seem jejune. i'm not trying to claim ian curtis is a great poet or seer, but for me he certainly hits a chord of pure disaffection, of worldly horror, that still resonates today as much as it did when i first heard joy division's songs.

[considers mounting a gratuitious attack on bob dylan, just for the fuck of it; decides against it.]

(Dylan is my one -- inexplicable -- exception where lyrics are as much a part of my enjoyment of him as the music.)

i have a deep, deep-rooted loathing of bob dylan. but a lot of it is based not so much on his music as on the way in which he's deified. indeed, i've occasionally found myself listening to his music and enjoying it. for that reason, i now have to avoid him at all costs :)

irrational? me? perish the thought.

Yes, but that is YOUR experience. My experience is otherwise, and thus we move into the wonderful realm of difference.

I understand Corbijn - who has invested his lifesavings in the project

Wait - WHAT'S THIS ???

http://www.amazon.com/Martin-Hannetts-Personal-Mixes-Division/dp/B000OVL766

How have I not heard anything about this?

Discovered by friends of Martin Hannett recently and with input from one of his relatives,these recordings give a rare insight into his production ideas for Joy Division and his relationship with the band.,the strange things/ sound effects they recorded in the studio together etc etc ,.The studio chit chat and interplay between Hannett and Joy Division members is all here as Martin left his own tape machine running throughout studio sessions. On this album we have rare alternative mixes of Joy Division that were Martin's personal favourites and he had the fore thought to get the band members to give him control of these recordings. A must for all Joy Division fans. Includes alternative mixes of Autosuggestion, Heart and soul, 24 hours, Passover, The Eternal (2 mixes), From Safety to where & Decades (3 mixes).

Yeah I saw it in the record store last w-e. I'm a bit suspicious I have to say, but then again I've never been a JD completist.

Hmmm. It's weird. Elevator sounds, silences, synth bits, talking, and then a couple of different mixes of those songs - no drastically different versions. I've now heard the three versions of Decades (called "N4" here) and apart from someone shouting "1, 2, 3" before the bass starts in two of those mixes, I can't really tell what's so different between them all. There are differences, but they're too subtle, I guess.

Yeah, I think they're really scrapping the barrel to have some JD release on the shelves this year.

It would appear that there's no shortage of scrapings to be had from the bottom of that particular barrel, as the three original albums are all scheduled to re-released very shortly:
- on CD (each one containing a "bonus disc" featuring a previously unavailable legitimately live recording - so that's a "bonus disc" which in reality will probably the main reason that >90% of them will be sold);
- on vinyl (£18 each for Unknown Pleasures and Closer, and for Still either £33 if you're prepared to have it in a plain old cardboard sleeve or £45 if you want it in hardboard & hessian with ribbons etc. - and no bonus tracks);
- and in a quite phenomenally expensive vinyl-only boxset at £160 a pop, still with none of that bonus material (which according to my calculations means that you'd be forking out a frankly astonishing 79 quid for "a special Peter Saville designed hard cover box").

i picked up a real mint copy of unknown pleasures on vinyl (orig. pressing) this weekend...i have a fancy new record player and everything...honestly, having only heard this song on the crappy old CDs, it's like a completely different record. there's so much more going on in the mix and so much more low end...

The Killers Set For Joy Division Soundtrack

The Killers, New Order and David Bowie are among a host of acts who are set to appear on the soundtrack to movie 'Control' - a biopic about Joy Division frontman Ian Curtis.

Released on October 1st, the soundtrack will feature the Killers cover of Joy Division's, 'Shadowplay,' which they have been road testing at live shows throughout the summer.

The soundtrack for the movie will also feature three instrumental tracks from New Order. 'Get Out,' 'Exit' and 'Hypnosis' have all been recorded for the film.

Other songs on the soundtrack come courtesy of Iggy Pop, David Bowie and Roxy Music.

All the music features in 'Control,' which has just received critical acclaim at the Edinburgh International Film Festival where it won the Michael Powell award for best new British feature.

'Control' will go on general release across the UK on October 5th.

The full tracklisting for the soundtrack is as follows:

New Order - 'Exit'
The Velvet Underground - 'What Goes On'
The Killers - 'Shadowplay'
Buzzcocks - 'Boredom' (live version)
Joy Division - 'Dead Souls'
Supersister - 'She Was Naked'
Iggy Pop - 'Sister Midnight'
Joy Division - 'Love Will Tear Us Apart'
Sex Pistols - 'Problems' (live version)
New Order - 'Hypnosis'
David Bowie - 'Drive-In Saturday'
John Cooper Clarke - 'Evidently Chickentown'
Roxy Music - '2HB'
Joy Division - 'Transmission' (cast cover)
Kraftwerk - 'Autobahn'
Joy Division - 'Atmosphere'
David Bowie - 'Warszawa'
New Order - 'Get Out'

http://www.musicrooms.net/cm/live/templates/?a=5350&z=5

each one containing a "bonus disc" featuring a previously unavailable legitimately live recording

The Unknown Pleasures 'bonus' live recording is in fact the Russell Club gig from July 79 - all but two or three tracks are also on the 'Heart And Soul' box.

Closer comes with the ULU set (which is ace) and Still is with the High Wycombe gig, including soundcheck. They have not added '24 Hours' to the Birmingham gig on Still, so the only place to get that is on the original vinyl (where it is uncredited on the sleeve IIRC)

The Control soundtrack is pretty boring - don't get excited about the New Order tracks, they're instrumental interludes.

and....mornin' Stewart!

I wonder what happens at 2:06 in the Substance version of "No Love Lost."

Or the "An Ideal For Living" version, I guess.

And that version of Shadowplay by the Killers is horrid. It sounds... wrong. I mean, its not exactly a subtle song, but you need some attitude to pull it off. I guess you could approach that attitude in lots of way, self-disgust, arrogant bombast, quiet resignation - I could see somebody managing that, but the Killers have a 'I'm too cool to care much about anything and my smugness is well justified because if I was chocolate I would eat myself' doesn't really do anything with the song.

http://acuterecords.com/blog/?p=28

I like how you started that with "and."

I just realized Dead Souls sounds like Velvet Underground. This has never before occured to me, though I've known that song for 20 years. ???

Also no one ever raves about the brilliance of "Komakino" or "From Safety To Where?" enough just because they weren't proper album tracks! It's a tragedy I say! I'm going to write a book called "Beyond Closer & Unknown Pleasures". Cheers.

"No Love Lost" and "Novelty" are my favorites, but I love at least 15 others. Truly one of those bands that had plenty of room to grow, and I think would have reached even greater heights, if given the time.

Never got real deep into JD, though I own Substance, UP, and Closer. Upon first hearing them I thought I might get obsessed, but it just never took hold. I love it when it's on but I never seek it out. A shame, really.

Yeah, I finally got the "Heart and Soul" 4CD set, been playing CD3 mostly, havent got to CDs 2 and 4 yet.

bimble, in my blog post I posted above, I discuss the possibility of people of a certain age having a very different view of Joy Division because Substance was our introduction instead of the records, so we're biased towards the early punky stuff and the singles instead of the LPs.

Yeah, I am that young person!

(whistles and walks away)

The forthcoming documentary film by Grant Gee is a good one. Very frank interviews with the surviving members. The antidote to Control.

Didn't know about that film at all, or had forgotten news about it. Looking forward to that!

Anyone read this Morley book?

Closer is a fucking depressing album. I never got why so many people in the early 2000s wore Closer t-shirts

the Gee film will be released theatrically in the UK, but the Weinsteins plan straight-to-DVD in US (fall?).

I saw the Gee doco a couple of weeks ago. It's pretty good, very light-hearted, celebrating rather than eulogizing Curtis.

separated at birth: the bassline of 'novelty' and the bassline of the stones "let's spend the night together"

bimble, in my blog post I posted above, I discuss the possibility of people of a certain age having a very different view of Joy Division because Substance was our introduction instead of the records, so we're biased towards the early punky stuff and the singles instead of the LPs.

Nice blog post, Dan! It's nice to feel I'm not alone in having experienced Joy Division at such a young age - I first heard them when I was about 13 or 14 as well. I love that story about you taping the J-Card for New Order's Substance cassette to your locker! Classic! But I can't agree with you that Joy Division's Substance was actually my first exposure to the band (it appears I'm just a few years older than you fwiw..Substance wasn't yet available at the time). I believe Closer was probably the first thing I owned by them, or perhaps the LWTUA 7', but it wasn't long before I had the Komakino flexi, Transmission 7' etc. and heard the tracks that were later compiled on Substance. Sometimes I could only hear these things through trading bootleg tapes with people. Anyway, I think what I was really reacting to in my post upthread was a strange mental block I have in my OWN mind now to think Joy Division = primarily UP & Closer. It's hard to explain why I have that mental block, but it does explain why it is so terribly thrilling whenever I put on other things. I do think too much weight is given to the proper albums, but perhaps that's to be expected.

I wonder if there is any common thread in how teenagers today are exposed to the band?

The forthcoming documentary film by Grant Gee is a good one. Very frank interviews with the surviving members. The antidote to Control.

-- Dr Morbius, Wednesday, February 20, 2008 10:23 AM (3 days ago) Bookmark Link

I am excited for this.

I watched 20 minutes and thought it was very nice. I'll prob. finish sometime this weekend.

LOVE! LIFE! MAKES YOU FEEL! HIGHER!

Come on Dan! You know what I mean! I just don't know if there is really a better Joy Division song in the world than "Sound of Music". Sigh. But I'm trying to be objective about this. Really, I'm trying.

The Peel session version is really tops, what with the extra guitar part at the end.

what's that thudding noise? why, it's the ghost of ian curtis trying to hang himself all over again.

wonder what wilson would have made of this, too?

wombats lol

The forthcoming documentary film by Grant Gee is a good one. Very frank interviews with the surviving members. The antidote to Control.

I also think it is way much better than Control. Worth watching.

That Zune story boggles.

it is extremely weird to me that joy division are that popular now; it was weird enough that they even the subject of a film

If there's a U2 iPod, and a Joy Division Zune, I can't wait for my Neu! edition Creative Zen player.

Yeah, maybe they'll do a Grateful Dead one next.

Just saw the documentary - excellent, but should just be called Ian Curtis. I guess I'm the only one who wants a Barney doc.

no i'd like that too. i suppose i could always just read his book

I'd definitely want one. Is the book any good?

I'm going to take a wild guess that Saville had nothing to do with the DVD cover art:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51l--x-519L._SS500_.jpg

The design in the doc itself is excellent.

bahahaha re: Saville

The True Story of The Meteoric Rise And Fall Of One Of The Most Influential Bands Of Our Time

Why does this bother me seeing this at the top of this thing? Am I just too old to remember when such a line would never have been written anywhere? (at least not about Joy Division) Or is it just that I have a feeling Wilson wouldn't have approved either?

Ned: Grimly made some comments about the Barney book on one of these threads or other.

I'm going to design my own cover for the DVD. I'll upload a PDF.

Go Spencer! By the way, I'd like to see what Grimly would do for the cover!

"Am I just too old to remember when such a line would never have been written anywhere?"

see, but it just kind of reminds me of this:

Ideal for Living: History of "Joy Division" from Their Mythical Origins as "The Stiff Kittens" to Their Programmed Future as "New Order"

(er, kinda anyway. that's what i thought of when i saw that dvd cover. wish i still had my copy of that book. i used to have a great obsessive xeroxed fan book of press clippings and transcribed lyrics too. i'd like to see that again as well.)

It's just a matter of wording preference, I think. The Ideal for Living one sounds reasonable to me and even interesting (and it's worth noting that those words appeared on the BACK of the book, not the front). It also makes no claims as to how influential the band were. The DVD one just sounds like some fucking generic rock and roll doc you could buy at Wal-Mart about say...Zep or The Doors or whoever. It's not very imaginative, nor is the damn design! :)

But yeah Ideal For Living is the JD/early New Order BIBLE in my opinion. I treasure my copy and still find it useful from time to time. I also know what "xeroxed fan book" you are talking about ("A History In Cuttings"). I still have my copy of that as well, but there were actually two volumes. I only ever had one and I never saw the other one with my own eyes but I came across someone on the Factory mailing list once who had it. I don't pull that book out as much, but it's nice as a historical document of the press they had while they were actually still making music and just after Ian's death. There's even some DIY fanzine type stuff in there, not just NME/MM/Sounds.

I have the History in Cuttings, didn't know there were two. Pretty amazing to read reviews of live Warsaw shows or articles typed up on a manual typewriter.

That's also where I learned about the Futurama festivals.

By the way, I'd like to see what Grimly would do for the cover!

rip off saville (with only the vaguest idea of what he himself was ripping off in the first place)? it's served me well many other times :)

...made some comments about the Barney book on one of these threads or other

fucking hell, that took a long time to find. this one.

anyway: yes, shocking cover but i can't wait to see the film.

also, not-very-well-designed UK trailer site here.

Dear Weinsteins, if it's not too late, you're welcome:

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j53/spencermfi/jddoc1.jpg

When I do a PDF, I'll leave out the Miriam and the dumb marketing blurb.

that is much better!

Yes, much better! Grimly are you going to do one too?

ugh to that guy saying "they had no fucking choice" but to be on stage - annoying nonsense stance

will you please actually send that in to the company?

(xpost)

Yes, much better! Grimly are you going to do one too?

no, because a) i'd end up toiling over it for hours, b) i don't have hours to spare, c) i bet it wouldn't work as well as spencer's anyway!

Also from The Weinsteins, I'm assuming they have a single in-house designer:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519sX-BC1rL._SS500_.jpg

ugh to that guy saying "they had no fucking choice" but to be on stage - annoying nonsense stance

-- J0hn D., Friday, 25 April 2008 02:30 (4 days ago) Bookmark Link

'that guy'?!

Every other band is on stage because they wanted to be rock stars this lot were on stage because they had no...fucking...choice.

I love this quote actually, it's pure Wilson genius. It's not true of course (at the very least I'm sure Hooky always wanted to be a rock star) but it gives a great idea of why we love(d) them so much. We felt that WAS the reason they were onstage.

Oh, I sound like a teenager.

DANCE DANCE DANCE TO THE RADIO

Just been to see the film. Good stuff although I doubt there's anything new for most people here. Lots of good things, reminded me why Dead Souls is my current favourite JD track, Barney, Hook and Morris are all on top form, and it's clear that Anik has aged better than them, some nice footage of Hannett. A few bits, like the hypnosis tape Barney and Curtis did- seemed rather pointless or over laboured, but all in all pretty enjoyable.

I thought the hypnotic regression thing was astonishing. I loved how Barney just casually dropped the "I was reading a book on hypnotic regression therapy at the time"...

I just thought it was a bit silly.
Also, as my friend pointed out, whatever happened to therapist/patient confidentiality?

At the end of the film a guy was having a row with some young hipster dudes who had been rustling sweet wrappers and popping cans occasionally (really no big deal and as we were at an 'arts cinema' much less than you average multiplex showing) and after a bit of verbal argy-bargy a cinema fellow turns up and the aggrieved party is shouting, virtually in tears "I saw them in Manchester when I was 18 and so this film means much more to me than it did to them...". Which is not something you hear at the end of most movies.

xpost
I like how it shows Barney's mad scientist/nerd side.

I've got the DVD of the documentary now and I'm trying to watch it but it's really way too intense for me. I have to stop it after every so often because I feel like I'm tripping on acid. Anyway, that bit where Bernard slags off the likes of "You're No Good For Me" as dreadful made me LOLS.

i managed to miss this at the cinema, which i'm gutted about. it was on for about a week; that was it. i need to get the DVD, but ... it won't be the same as the big-screen experience. tits.

http://www.toggle.co.nz/catalogues_other/DAR0015_20084813125.jpg

Region 2 DVD not out in the UK until the end of August? Why do they still do this? I've ordered a region one one from the states, cheaper anyway. The R2 one has a better cover though.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41cxrP7hAhL._SL500_AA240_.jpg

Is this the director's cut with happy end?

Yeah I got the doc. I tried to watch the doc. It taxed my brain. I had other things on my mind. I couldn't quite make it through all of it. Sensory overload.

i've realised i go through a heavy JD phase about once a year, then don't listen to them for most of the rest of the time (even though i'd still say they're my "favourite band" -- or at least did when my nine-year-old nephew asked who my favourite band was, and i really can't think of a more honest answer, especially if the set "joy division" is allowed to include "the new order stuff i love, which admittedly is most of it, substantial parts of the last two albums aside"). hopefully this year's phase will coincide with the release of the DVD :)

i just watched the doc. not staggering amounts of new information but it's always nice hearing it from the horses' mouths so to speak. actually hearing from bernard for once was an unexpected pleasure (no pun intended) and steven morris continues to be my favourite member..

Cooking from a stovetop
Waiting on the brine...

Stir stir stir
To the radio.

Why is joy division getting so much attention over here lately!? IAN CURTIS SUCKED COCK FOR CAB FARE.

So was Ian into the occult? I've heard conflicting statements from two members of New Order. Ian sure seemed like the kind of guy who owned a copy of "Nazism and the Occult" or something.

I don't remember reading anything about him being particularly into the occult, no, and I've read quite a bit about him/JD.

Soooooooo good:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mm6ycEz2A8

http://www.insound.com/Derek_Erdman_Three_Quarters_of_Joy_Division_Win_Big_at_OTB_Art+Print/productmain/p/INS62377/

http://i45.tinypic.com/bipatu.png

Ok, so instead of clogging up the board with yet another Joy Division thread, I thought I'd just add to this one.

Making a comp for someone who doesnt know a lot about The Joy Divisions - even though they've had fillums made about them and everything.

Having a bit of trouble fitting it all onto an 80 minute cd though.

Tracklisting:

1. Warsaw
2. No Love Lost
3. Digital (Les Bains Douches live versh)
4. Disorder
5. Day Of The Lords
6. Incubation
7. Transmission
8. Insight
9. Shadow Play
10. She's Lost Control (12" 'dancier' versh)
11. Dead Souls
12. Interzone
13. New Dawn Fades
14. Atmosphere
15. These Days
16. Atrocity Exhibition (Les Bains Douches live versh)
17. Isolation
18. Means To An End
19. Heart And Soul
20. Twenty Four Hours
21. Eternal
22. Decades
23. Love Will Tear Us Apart (Permanent mix)

Probably need to take 3 songs off this to make it fit on a cd. Buggered if I can decide which ones though. What says you, ilx?

Would still make sense if you cut the three earliest tracks and started with "Disorder."

...while at the other end of things, you prob don't need the entire side 2 of Closer to make the point.

Want to keep the first two tracks at least for their punky immediacy....the comp is for a young chap who could be put off initially by the doomy baritone and sparse first album production.

Have taken off the live version of 'Digital', 'Interzone' and 'Heart and Soul'.

Still need to lose one longish track.

Down to 'The Eternal' and 'Decades'.

I love em both. They go together!

Which one should I chuck?

"The Eternal"

Have taken off ... 'Heart and Soul'.

WHAT

NO

who could be put off initially by the doomy baritone and sparse first album production

actual lols @ this

ahahaha that steel drum cover is AWESOME

better than the original?

Dud. I mean, classic.

Saw this on someone's tumblr. Don't know if it's a photoshop or not, but it looks real. And, if that's the case, WTF MAN?

http://i56.tinypic.com/f4rbxw.jpg

Actually, I take that back. The edge on the near side kind of betrays its photoshoppedness.

she's lost control...of her joint banking account and visiting rights

looks like a photoshop phriday kind of thing

A bunch of my mates went to that "Peter Hook and friends" thing last night and there was varius "well it was good... but it was like a good cover band". Im like, WTF did you think it was going to be, jesus.

a bad cover band.

Hahha exactly. Apparently they played this 20 min self indulgent wank video before they came on that was all random new order clips and really poorly made? The audience all started to shout abuse, haha.

It's anti-performance theory. Hook's a secret academic.

can someone tell me what's considered the canonical/best joy division biography?

i quite liked mick middles biography on ian curtis called "torn apart". but obviously it centers on the singer. it is an easy and still rather rewarding read.

ty alex, i'll look into it now!

yesterday I turned on the radio and there was some post-punk rock stuff and I got all Man Yells At Clouds in my mind about "fuckin young kids from Brooklyn starting bands, is that all you know how to do is bite Joy Division" and then the singer came in and he was like "Iiiiiii'm living in the ice age" and I was like "oh ahem lol"

hahaha

the one by his widow is decent, markers. though you will finish it and think she's boring and he was a cunt.

I want to listen to that radio station.

WXYC Chapel Hill - probably has an internet stream & is frankly awesome every day

"the one by his widow is decent, markers. though you will finish it and think she's boring and he was a cunt."
it gives a different perspective that's true but it does not shed a lot of light on the music. i don't even remember if she liked it.

Mickey, Mickey will tear us apart. Again.

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/316843_2193118826704_1209155925_31961468_2136553259_n.jpg

"Radiodisney/Goofy transmission"

Epcot City Exhibition

Ice Age

http://blog.silive.com/sinotebook/2009/09/large_BARA1.jpg

When figures from the past stand tall
And mocking voices ring the hall
Imperialistic house of prayer
Conquistadors who took their share

THEY KEEP CALLING ME
THEY KEEP CALLING ME
M-O-U-S-E
KEEP ON CALLING ME

^^^ omfg

looool

fucking horrifying

Also remarkable is that Hook and Sumner first started playing music in 1976 and by 1979 had released Unknown Pleasures.

I would totally rock that shirt. also, thanks for bumping this thread and reminding me that I need to put Closer in my car.

also also:

WXYC Chapel Hill - probably has an internet stream & is frankly awesome every day

PS I'm sure this has been brought up before but: how do y'all say Closer in yr heads/is there an established 'correct' reading?

you know it man xp

it's "closer" in the sense of "nearer to," with the sibilant s, though I'm guessing this is something people have internet arguments about now, which is a good argument in favor of the pre-internet age

Joy Division - Closer

I thought it was "clo-say"

RICK ROSS'S FORTHCOMING NEW ALBUM... CLO-SAY FEAT. 50 TYSON

Clearly it's both at the same time, suggesting convergence at the end. That's how puns work, no?

― Michael Train, Monday, March 22, 2010 1:00 AM (1 year ago) Bookmark

^^^ this, to me. but I still always pronounced "clozer", I guess b/c it came to me thoroughly prepackaged as "Joy Division's final album"?

http://pitchfork-cdn.s3.amazonaws.com/content/7505002523769-1.jpeg

http://shirtsofsatan.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/ola_arabic.jpg

ha!

http://cdn.buzznet.com/media/jjr/2011/02/greene-starbucks//ashley-greene-starbucks-lax-01.jpg

I saw the Mickey Joy Division shirt in the gift shop of the Aerosmith rollercoaster in November. I didn't realize it was Mickey, though, until I looked at my photos later!

Aerosmith rollercoaster

i keep getting stuck on these two words...is there an Aerosmith-themed ride at Disney World? Whoa!!

the aerosmith ride at disney is fucking awesome tbh http://i.imgur.com/zi7hd.gif

you said it, Dave!

Please. I beg of you. STOP.

http://peterhook.co.uk/#/news/peter-hook-and-the-light-perform-still-for-the-first-ever-time-may-18th-19th-the-factory-mcr

Hahahahaha! Oh dear. I mean, I find this funny but I can see why some may not find it a laughing matter!

Oh it's hilarious, trust me. It is also goddamn nuts.

Bit of an understatement there, Ned ;)

I don't think I've listened to Still in its entirety for years... it's easily been well over a decade now.

Via Facebook, a comment on the New Order forums:

"They should re-enact the events of May 1980 on stage, if they are doing it chronologically."

haha you know what I just realized, is the only Joy Division album I've heard front to back is Substance

how the hell did that happen

xpost:

Ouch!!

did someone see one of the "unknown pleasures" concerts? i can't help but i am pretty disgusted by this kind of cashing-in on the legacy of one of the greatest bands. does peter hook really need the money?

is he really going to do all the live tracks as well... Sister Ray?? oh god.....

maybe he can finally get round to doing that version of Louie Louie

maybe he can finally get round to doing that version of Louie Louie

― zappi, Tuesday, February 28, 2012 9:13 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Hahahahahaha!!!

So it seems like some extracts from Peter Hook's Joy Division book have been published in the NME, including a hilarious anecdote about Ian pissing in an ashtray in a hotel room in Brussels (and getting caught and shouted at in French by a caretaker). There's also another anecdote about Rob Gretton, Peter Hook, Steve Morris and several others bursting into a hotel room to find Ian and Bernard in seperate beds with a naked girl for company each, and reacting to this by throwing lit fireworks around the room. Bernard was pissed off, Ian allegedly found it hilarious, and the two naked girls were terrified. "Hardly the erotic feast they might have been hoping for", I quote.

don't know where else to post this, but this is peter hook in NYT magazine today:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/27/magazine/we-were-joy-division.html

It all started with the Sex Pistols. I saw them twice in 1976 — two gigs weeks apart at the Lesser Free Trade Hall in Manchester — Bernard Sumner (our guitarist) and I went together with a couple of friends to the first gig, and at the second gig I bumped into Ian Curtis, who would become our lead singer. They were only on for half an hour, but when they finished, we filed out quietly with our minds blown, absolutely utterly speechless, and it just sort of dawned on me then — that was it. On the way home that night we decided to form a band — Joy Division. The name was Ian’s idea.

By 1979, we hadn’t yet even made an album, but because we were being so productive, talk turned to making one. To be perfectly frank, we weren’t that fussy about whom we made it with. But in the meantime Martin Rushent invited us down to the studio to record some demos, just to see if we were going to jell. He’d produced the Buzzcocks and the Stranglers by this point, so we were very excited by the prospect.

When we got there, we saw that Rushent had a brand-new Jaguar XJS — and as it happened I’d been reading this article about how something like 9 out of 10 Jag owners don’t lock the boot of their car. So I thought, I wonder if that’s true. . . . Tried his boot and, lo and behold, it was unlocked. Inside, it was full of what I’m sure were stolen car radios; you could tell they were stolen by the way the wires were dangling off from where they’d been ripped out. Me and Terry, our roadie, were looking at each other, thinking, Martin’s got a boot full of stolen car radios. And then, Wonder if he’d miss a couple. . . .

All day, whenever there was a break in the recording, we’d be daring one another to go back in his boot and nick one each for our cars — because they were proper high-end stereos — but I was going: “Oh, no, we can’t, because he might be our record company. We can’t nick cassette players off our record company.” We didn’t take any. God knows what he was doing with them, though. We never asked him.

It was a really nice studio, and he worked well with Ian on the vocals, did a few overdubs and stuff, nothing wild, very low key. The tracks were “Glass,” “Transmission,” “Ice Age,” “Insight” and “Digital.” Rushent was a nice guy; we got on well.

That was the thing about Joy Division, though: writing the songs was dead easy because the group was really balanced. We had a great guitarist, a great drummer, a great bass player and a great singer. Ian would listen to us jamming and then direct the song until it was . . . a song. He stood there like a conductor and picked out the best bits. Which was why, when he killed himself a year later, it made everything so difficult. It was like driving a great car that had only three wheels. The loss of Ian opened up a hole in us, and we had to learn to write in a different way. We were so tight, as a group, we didn’t even use a tape recorder half the time. Didn’t need one.

Back then we didn’t know rules or theory. We had our ear, Ian, who listened and picked out the melodies. Then at some point his lyrics would appear. He always had these scraps of paper that he’d written things down on, and he’d go through his plastic bag. “Oh, I’ve got something that might suit that.” And the next thing you knew he’d be standing there with a piece of paper in one hand, wrapped around the microphone stand, with his head down, making the melodies work. We’d never hear what he was singing about in rehearsal because the equipment was so terrible. In his case it didn’t matter because he delivered the vocal with such a huge amount of passion and aggression, as if he really meant it.

I recently got offered the tape of that session with Rushent. Eden Studios was taken over by a firm of solicitors, and left in a storeroom, hidden in the bowels of it, were the Joy Division masters. One of the staff members claimed to have them and offered me the tape through a third party. He wanted £50,000 for it. This was in 2006 or something. Even then there was no way on earth you could make a record and hope to recoup 50 grand. I offered him a finder’s fee, two grand, but he said no, and I’ve never heard from him since; it’s never appeared. Ah, well. It’s a funny thing, people trying to sell you back bits of your own past. But I’m getting used to it, to be honest.

Peter Hook is a co-founder of the bands Joy Division and New Order. This essay is adapted from his memoir, “Unknown Pleasures,” published this month by HarperCollins.

That was the thing about Joy Division, though: writing the songs was dead easy because the group was really balanced. We had a great guitarist, a great drummer, a great bass player and a great singer.

hahahaha. yep, if you had to be specific about what made the group balanced, it really comes down to how great each member was.

reads better than:

On the way home that night we decided to form a band — Warsaw. Stiff Kittens or something.

sounds like Hooky begging for his former job back.

I know he is a figure of fun here these days but I'm about a third of the way through Hooky's JD memoir and am really enjoying it. What am I missing?

I finally get it!
― adam. (nordicskilla), Wednesday, September 15, 2004 9:18 PM (8 years ago)

Looking at it now, I guess my question reads along the lines of something like " if the Velvet Underground are so popular, why are there so many threads making fun of Lou Reed?"

http://adamcap.com/2011/05/19/history-of-joy-division-unknown-pleasures-album-art/

Where is the image of the parody t-shirt which was on another thread recently?

i think that was on Defend the Indefensible: Joy Division, one of my favorite thread titles on this site because of its.. i think the word used here is "challopsy-ness". anyway, does anyone else love the song Interzone? one of my top 5 JD tracks easily

Interzone is great. I've got this cycle going now where I get the N.F. Porter song "Keep On Keepin' On," which has a very similar riff (and according to the JD documentary they were encouraged to cover by a manager, I think) going through my head and then Warsaw's version, then the Joy Division version and back again.

http://www.willlovetearusapart.com/

It's some kind of game inspired by the song, seems very resource-intensive and I didn't have the patience to see it through tbh.

Joy Division tapes 'saved from skip'

I was hoping the Peter Hook memoir would be chock full of cocaine thoughts and it delivers!

I bought it last week but it's already annoyed me so much in the first chapter that I can't imagine i'll ever pick it up again.

I saw Peter Hook a couple months ago playing all of Movement and Power, Corruption, and Lies (+ some other songs such as "Procession"). He's not bad! Really not bad at all.

So Brittany Spanos is reporting on Twitter that Iggy Pop is currently being backed by New Order covering Joy Division songs. Apparently "Transmission" and "Love Will Tear Us Apart" were played at the least.

hah, just posted on facebook about that. A friend of mine reported the same.

http://instagram.com/p/lbJVFWtLKX/

originally read that as "Britney Spears is reporting etc."

not sure what to think about this. it really is bizarre.

Ian Curtis heavily inspired by Iggy so not so bizzare.

http://www.slicingupeyeballs.com/2014/03/11/new-order-iggy-pop-joy-division-love-will-tear-us-apart/

From Brittany's review:

The evening then arrived to the concert "headliners," if that's an appropriate term for a benefit. Bernard Sumner, Phil Cunningham and Tom Chapman of New Order brought on stage Manchester poet Mike Garry and composer Jo Duddell for a special performance of Garry's poem "St. Anthony" set to New Order's "Your Silent Face." Making it even more special is who the poem had been written in honor of -- Factory Records' owner Tony Wilson. Wilson of course, discovered them all when they were Joy Division.

The most excellent and fulfilling of the surprises came from Iggy Pop's entrance on stage to perform a trio of songs with New Order. Dressed in an oversized black blazer, dress pants, and no shirt, Iggy Pop looked particularly buttoned up with only part of his bare chest peeking beneath the suit. He made a very Iggy Pop show of New Order's "California Grass" before the evening's most audience-rousing pair of performances arrived as the collaborators dove into two Joy Division tracks. Pop took over Joy Division's "Transmission" as patrons jumped to their feet to "dance, dance, dance, dance, dance" as the song commands. Pop's voice has aged nicely, even deeper and with more resonance as he perfectly delivered a vocal reminiscent of the late Joy Division singer Ian Curtis' deep tone. Excitement heightened as they transitioned into "Love Will Tear Us Apart" and more people jumped to their feet and ran towards the stage to continue dancing and jumping and taking part in this truly remarkable moment. Sumner took over the majority of vocal duties though Pop did the refrain justice.

Um, wasn't Iggy on Ian's turntable when he hung himself? Something sort of ... unseemly about this.

His album was, yes.

Should have brought Werner Herzog and a chicken on for the encore.

That's actually the one thing about it that doesn't feel dumb to me. There's no way of knowing what anybody's last hour was actually like, of course, but I think of The Idiot on the turntable as signifying "let me hear some music I love one last time" or possibly "maybe playing an album I like will help; it used to help."

Bernard Sumner, Phil Cunningham and Tom Chapman of New Order

who?

Phil has been in New Order for 10yrs longer than Joy Division was active.

Aero, that was a really insightful and humanizing comment. It's easy to be removed from everything Ian was going through, poor bastard.

otm.

Phil has been in New Order for 10yrs longer than Joy Division was active.

holy shit that's a terrifying thought

subtract the years they were split though

@peter_hook1
Very sad to hear the news today about Annik Honore - we'll be playing Atmosphere tonight for her. Hope she's sat up there with Ian. RIP.

She was so much more than Ian's other woman, though - she played a big role bringing attention to some great European bands.

Yeah we talk about her on the Disques du Crepuscule thread