Cecil Taylor S+D

Anything with Jimmy Lyons on (most underrated sax player ever?) is also worth yr time and effort - 'Nefertiti, The Beautiful One Has Come', an awesome live alb recorded in the early 60s, was reissued by Revenant a few years ago, and 'It Is In The Brewing Luminous', an early 80s small club date w/ Lyons, and Alan Silva on bass, was put out on CD by HatArt a year or so ago. 'Unit Structures', a bigger band line-up w/ Lyons, Silva and Henry Grimes amongst others, is a 1966 Blue Note alb that should be fairly easy to get hold of. From roughly the same period, there's a wicked split alb on Impulse! w/ Roswell Rudd called 'Mixed' that includes tracks from Gil Evans' 'Into The Hot', where Taylor plays alongside Lyons and Archie Shepp. And if you can find it, 'The Jazz Composer's Orchestra' dbl alb features both Taylor and Pharoah Sanders on absolutely blistering form.

I'm totally clueless abt most of Taylor's 70s albs - there shld be a comprehensive reissue prog, goddamit! - and I've yet to dabble in any of his spoken word stuff, although the FMP collab alb w/ Derek Bailey - 'Pleistozaen Mit Wasser' - begins w/ CT burbling and gurgling away before he finally reaches the keyboard. That rec is part of a whole series of collaborative concerts that CT gave in Germany in 1988, each with different groupings of Europe's top free players.

Cecil taylor unit: It is in the brewing luminous.

The FMP label released 11 CDs (I think) of concerts that were performed in Berlin in '88. You can't buy the boxset but all (bar CD 001) are available. I have several of them and they are all worth getting. There are duos with Derek Bailey, Gunter Sommer, Tony Oxley, Paul Lovens, a trio with evan parker and a cello player (can't remember name). There is a solo set amongst this.

And I still got to hear the duo with han bennik and the 2CD set where he plays (after several days rehersal) with a 17-piece orchestra. I'm sure someone else will fill in the remanider.

It's just the start. Once you're in just watch the bank account dry up.

re: nefertiti, i picked up a LP for £6 called What's New, on Freedom. As far as I can see it's the same thing. is this true? it's a UK LP. I got the impression that nefertiti was super rare if ever released at all.

tell me about the spoken word stuff

The Leo alb 'Chinampas' is just Cecil reading his poetry, no piano.

Album on Leo called cinampas which is taylor on vocals and percussion. No piano. Never seen this BUT from his 'vocals' on the albums I do have then it must all gibberish instead of actual words. So get hold of it.

're: nefertiti, i picked up a LP for £6 called What's New, on Freedom. As far as I can see it's the same thing. is this true? it's a UK LP. I got the impression that nefertiti was super rare if ever released at all.'

Neferetti, 'the beautiful one has come' is a reissue. If it's the same then DAMN YOU. I pay £28 for my double CD (but i wonder whether your LP has all the material).

cecil possibly my alltime fave "avant gardist"

The Hans Bennik duet is very good (I love the name: "Spots, Circles and Fantasy"), not totally dissimilar to the Lovens but louder, more anarchic.

Yeah, I remeber you wrote an article abt him on the wire (think it had diamanda on the cover).

Since I've just acquired a job that pays me enough (though 'enough' is never enough heh heh) to buy this stuff I'm just going through buying records that are released by 'avant-gardists' so I wouldn't to say who is my favourite but cecil would be near the top.

That's jimmy lyons. I agree but jimmy is also on 'brewing luminous' but here he is much better, it's almost as if he caught up with Cecil. Great stuff.

And I haven't seen the Bennik duo. I must get it. I've heard stuff he's done with brotzmann. It's a riot.

or "Student Studies" aka "The Great Paris Concert" (so called on Black Lion), with a bonus Sam Rivers -- or "Conquistador" on Blue Note, really seductive, its "Unit Structures" less complex but sexy sibling

mid: the two New World Records recordings capture that "..swift" band in the studio before they had toured Europe. Since "..swift" is the last gig for the band that included Jacson, you'll have ideas developed from one extreme to the other by the same band within a year long period, a rare oppurtunity to see how CT material develops over the course of a bands run -- usually his recordings are one-off appearances for each line-up

the Leo albums are the least useful of his albums (except for seeing what Leroy Jenkins does)

a good orchestrated by CT is "Sliding Quadrants" on Soul Note -- a useful entry to smaller scaled compositions and a great band quite different to the Jackson stuff

remember the Jackson stuff is most atypical -- no other CT drummer took anything like that approach, so "..swift" is quite an odd-ball, but very good admittedly

later: Oxley/Taylor is my favourite FMP, and Double Holy House is as cruisy as Taylor will get solo but all the FMPs are good.

the double "Alms/ .." ia a bit obvious, but fun. Olu Iwa with Brotzman is also definitely fun as are the FMP trios and 4tets/6tets with Oxley, Parker, Guy and the Honsinger, Gayle et. al.

get them all, then you have a lifetime of speed of sound ploughing to look forward to

Trolls really should learn to be consistent. Or better still, fuck off.

WHAT SHE SHOULD HAVE DONE OF COURSE was to berate you for being ABLE to string one sentence together in colourful, vowel-free purlieus, bleeding with camouflage-annihilating oxsyteryxie oxleyTtime howdoesitPHeAL aware of cecily's ergoGnomics unreachBBBBBLE for ham method acKToER like archie shepp har har :-)

! i love this !

if i want it bad enough then i'll find the munny. (i'd love to mug someone so i could buy a cecil box set!!) but it seems way overpriced to me, and the prob (or is it?) with cecil is that it's had to get a review where i don't think that it's reflex "well everything he does is genius" one. i know he's a genius godammit!

am i broke? hmm. I've known broke-r supermarket-job student underachievers than me, so i guess i won't complain.

what sound-art box was this then?

''Henri Chopin's Revue OU: 5 x LPs of sound art from the likes of W. Burroughs, byron gysin, bob cobbing (there's abt 20 artists in total). Beautiful picture discs. If you have 65 quid then go and get this becuz its only a limited edition of 300 and it'll prob run out in a month.
the alternative is a 4 CD box set (material on 5 Lps) with a booklet (this didn't come with the LPs).

On the other hand there is a Henri chopin LP (an extra) with the 5. That doesn't come with the CDs.

I chose more music instaed of more info.''

''"hehehe.. i wish i had the money (well, i do)"
! i love this !''

well. that's the situation I'm in. I'd be happy to buy a 5 disc set (50 quid say) but since that isn't avaialble.

the promoters should tell us _now_ whether they're going to do what FMP did and issue them all as singles later anyway -- i figure the artists are above this game show retail business, so hopefully we'll find out the label are as like minded real soon

the i.t. boom, the cd boom, so many improv/azz releases in the last 8 years, have all been a little off-putting -- as were the FMP trio singles like ".. blazons"

i wish there were more CT holy house and totzil/mummers spoken-music albums (and less w.s.burroughs albums)

anyone able to justify 100 quid for the ten album ct/oxley/parker dates ?? (limited edition -- screw that, i've seen 4 or 5 limited editions of the hat/hut items now, except garden, which is deserving too) -- i don't find w.parker very interesting on celebrated/looking fmps

(oh, and i think one too many salty swift pt 2 (5 on disc one) is the best learning curve entry point for ct units)

I have to admit I don't love Cecil Taylor. In theory I do, he's an incredible technician. As far as what he plays, though, I think there are moments of brilliance, but it seems very European to me...no space...I have no idea what you'd call it.

He's one of those people I need to check out more thoroughly, like Braxton, so the above suggestions are very useful. Anyone care to offer an analysis of what he does that might help me appreciate it more, I'm sure I must be missing some key here...

well what he does has no central key heh...atonal jazz me thinks. for more: go to val vilmer's book on the subject (not too technical but it has a bit of it for sure).

fer chrissakes! he's european!!! come on...he's european and american and african etc etc...its a world music project in his hands.

x-post: sirone=> http://www.mindspring.com/~scala/sirone.htm

I really like 'artistry'.

Don't have all the FMPs but I'd say you should get one without a percussionist next. The one with parker and hosinger was really satisfying.

Wow, stence, that is very exciting. I will be there.

I own the 2 Ts For A Lovely T box. It's probably overpriced (especially when exchange rates - which were a lot better when I purchased it than they are now - and shipping to the US are factored in), but I've listened to it a lot, so I feel like I got my money's worth.

Did Cecil come out in his pajamas and bless the piano before he started playing? He did something like that both times I've seen him.

Yeah what was he writing?

http://www.sofamusic.no/musicians/tony_oxley.jpg

I thought the bassplayer would've been much better with a real standup. Even during his arco parts there didn't seem to be as many overtones as would be produced with a larger resonating body (altho some of the arco stuff kinda nicely sounded like the late Jimmy Lyons' sax stuff!).

Dunno what he was writing. I was hoping he'd recite a poem but no dice.

Lately I've been listening to Student Studies a lot.

http://www.kaufman-center.org/tc/mch0607/cj_101206.php

Cecil, Braxton, Parker and Oxley at the RFH last night:

Oh.
My.
Fucking.
God.

All other music please retire now.

Jazz Advance is a great entry point.

That sounds like an incredible show. (William Parker, I assume?)

Are they doing or did they do a record together?

I hope the concert was recorded, and if not, that they do make a record (yes, it was William P - with his immense bass, you understand why they call themselves the Feel Trio).

could someone describe CT's "jazz advance" lp for me, and perhaps mull it's merits as a starting point?

"Conquistador" is pretty classic, though admittedly the only one I've heard.

Springtime is Cecil Taylor time

So little interest in out stuff on ILM that when a new post pops up on a thread like this one I automatically half assume the subject has died.

could someone describe CT's "jazz advance" lp for me, and perhaps mull it's merits as a starting point?

Jazz Advance is, afaik, unlike any other Cecil Taylor records. blues-based jazz and not a "out there" record. it was years ago, but i tried a few others (silent tongues, cecil taylor unit) and JA is the only one i actually enjoy; probably on account of the relative straightforwardness of the music

i like a lot of "out" music, but I find Cecil (or at least most of the Cecil I've heard) to be kind of overwhelming. That's the idea, I know (or at least part of the idea) ... But it's not something I reach for very often. I certainly appreciate what he's doing. Would love to see him live, actually. The clips I've seen are kind of mind-boggling.

i'm hoping that cecil is the first eternal man

have been jamming that live in the black forest alb that's taken from a radio broadcast, amazing gig from the same era as IT IS IN THE BREWING LUMINOUS

JAZZ ADVANCE is a nice enough alb but it is not that far off monk or herbie nichols or even ellington, but cannot compare to most CT things that came after

Jazz Advance is, afaik, unlike any other Cecil Taylor records.

It's definitely more straightforward than everything he's best known for; the next step after Monk, basically. And if you like that side of him, you should check out his quartet with Archie Shepp, Buell Neidlinger and Denis Charles from the early '60s - albums to hear are Air, Cell Walk for Celeste, New York City R&B and The World of Cecil Taylor, all on the Candid label. They drift in and out of print, but they're findable.

amazing footage from youtube, can't think of another piano player who so dances around the keyboard:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U01okZHnIQ&feature=related

tbh, i dont love nerfertiti like i do conquistador! or unit structures or looking ahead. i like air above buildings... a lot, and im warming up to 3 phasis... i think that may be all ive heard so far...

was all :-0 when I came across these paragraphs today in Up Above the World (1966) by Paul Bowles:

"Thorny finished his drink and held out his glass for more.

They listened while a plane flew over; when its roar had become only a reverberation passing farther down the valley, Thorny said, "Put on the new Cecil Taylor.""

Cecil Taylor wins the Kyoto prize.

Hope he doesn't blow it on coke, like (rumor has it) he did with his MacArthur grant money.

Hope he does

lol! Why the hell not.

?

In all seriousness, though, someone is peppering all Cecil's recent press with allegations of hard drug use. Looks odd, I have to say. Lot of nutters out there.

Ahhh - they should let the man be. He's created and played amazing music for so many years. His demons (or angels) are his to handle.

Damn right. It is his business how he spends his last bit of time on this rock and fuck gossip.

I don't care myself - I'm a huge fan. I actually think the idea of spending a massive grant on drugs is hilarious.

i think if you are 84 you should be allowed to use as many drugs as you want to, and supported by the state while doing so (but only while doing so)

Woke up this morning craving a Cecil Taylor Christmas LP

Ha, that would rule.

Cecil Taylor Class at Swing University, part of Jazz at Lincoln Center:
http://academy.jalc.org/swing-university-youngtaylor/
http://ticketing.jalc.org/auxpkg/detail.aspx?pkg=380&flex=N&nfs=N

I highly recommend anyone in the vicinity checking one or more of these classes out. I had the good fortune to hear Ben Young lecture about Cecil Taylor a number of years ago, and his insights continue to resonate with me.

you might have a problem with your eardrums

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTwnwbG9YLE

lol

"The defendant befriended Mr. Taylor and won his trust," Kenneth Thompson, the district attorney, said in a statement, "which later made it easier for him to allegedly swindle this vulnerable, elderly and great jazz musician."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/12/us-usa-crime-taylor-idUSKBN0GC1GA20140812

A Cecil Taylor press conference is not like other press conferences:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/13/nyregion/man-accused-of-stealing-prize-money-from-jazz-genius.html?ref=arts&_r=0

Asked about what receiving the award was like, Mr. Taylor said “it was a thrilling moment,” though he had also received a MacArthur fellowship and a Guggenheim fellowship, and then, suddenly, he was talking about playing a nine-foot Bösendorfer piano in the basement of — here a reporter’s notes got hazy, finishing with the quote, “I had fun.”

That photo of everyone staring at him in total confusion and annoyance is great

Looking good!

great photo

this makes me so sad, but cecil seems to be taking it in stride

Too short, but very affecting piece by an Australian filmmaker doing a documentary on Cecil:
https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2015/april/1427806800/amiel-courtin-wilson/cecil-taylor

AMAZING footage from Paris 1969 with Jimmy Lyons on alto sax, Sam Rivers on tenor sax, and Andrew Cyrille on drums:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4HUWyGTu1I

This was part of a full European tour put together by George Wein and the Newport Jazz Festival, billed as bringing the Festival to Europe - Miles Davis's 1969 band (with Wayne Shorter, Chick Corea, Dave Holland and Jack DeJohnette) was also on the bill. When I interviewed Taylor back in February, he told me he was walking around backstage and overheard Miles telling his (Davis's) band, "Don't listen to him - he's bullshittin'."

The irony of course being that, when Miles' band played in a manner not completely dissimilar to this (for which, see the Rome '69 show), Miles would say to them, "Hey, how come you never play like that when I'm soloing?"

(I imagine they thought, "Goddammit, make up your mind!")

Here's some even more amazing footage from 1974 - including poetry, and Cecil playing bells and the strings of the piano:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkZw7vbcIvY

dude who bilked him got 3 years in prison and returned 200k with a pledge, who knows of what worth, to pay back the rest

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/05/nyregion/man-who-stole-jazz-pianist-cecil-taylors-prize-money-is-sentenced.html

would seriously wish death upon that type of parasite.

C.T. shares your vibe on this q

“Where is he?” Taylor asked reporters of Muir after the proceeding. “Perhaps in the corner, talking to a roach?”

“He’s not a spiritual man. He will get what he deserves,” Taylor added.

Are there any Cecil documentaries (not clips from documentaries) online anywhere? I did run across Imagine the Sound which has a broader free-jazz focus. Would love to see Silent Eye or All the Notes if they're around

I worked on All The Notes in its early stages (editor). Was up on YT for a while. I need to rip my dvd copy. Once I do I'll post here.

Wow, that's excellent - hey, from what I've seen, Vimeo is the place people put their documentaries when they'd rather monetize through rental; there's a huge selection. That might be the place for you to put it up

I'm not sure but I may be the only person on earth who has listened to all of 2 Ts in one go (yesterday). Towards the end I felt like I was on some sort of mystical sweat lodge mushroom trip

Damn, there useta be a cool half-hour doc made for French TV documenting the late 1966 "Student Studies" quartet, but it's apparently taken down from YT in the past few months.

I should've worded that differently. I'll send you a WeTransfer link once ripped. If it's not available on YT or Vimeo that's probably the filmmaker's decision and I'm not gonna ignore that.

Aiet - thanks again

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/25/obituaries/buell-neidlinger-dies.html

Rest In Peace

Happy belated birthday CT

No official confirmation yet but word's going around Cecil's passed

Aw man. I was lucky to see him play up close maybe twelve years ago, an experience that will stay with me forever.

True Fire.

He passed earlier this evening, at home in Fort Greene.

I saw him play five times:

• in trio with Dominic Duval on bass and Jay Rosen on drums at the Village Vanguard in 1997
• leading a two-dozen-strong orchestra at the Knitting Factory on Leonard Street in 2002
• at Avery Fisher Hall, also in 2002 (half solo, half trio with Duval and Rosen again)
• in trio with Henry Grimes on bass and Pheeroan akLaff on drums at the Iridium in 2006
• at the Whitney Museum in 2016 with Okkyung Lee on cello, Harri Sjöström on sax, Jackson Krall on drums, and Tony Oxley on electronics

RIP

just last night picked up a copy of Winged Serpent (Sliding Quadrants) - I will blast it today

(re above release i had no idea he'd crossed paths with Tomasz Stanko)

saw him play in a trio with tony oxley and bill dixon in london maybe 10-15 years ago, it was a weird show but CT's solo section was outstanding

I love the album that Oxley/Dixon trio recorded at the Victoriaville Festival in Canada - I believe it was their debut performance, and it was much more Bill's show than Cecil's. The music was super spacious and drifting. It's the only time I've ever heard Taylor surrender to someone else's aesthetic so completely.

only time i saw cecil taylor was in london at the jazz cafe in about 1991. can't for the life of me remember who he played with, though i guess oxley is a fairly likely candidate

a giant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqNf6OCHn9E

Lots of Cecil coming down on the WFMU Give the Drummer Radio stream right now.

Never got to see him play. But man, what a genius.

RIP - talk about a guy who blazed an entirely new trail.

The following panel discussion occurred 54 years ago today. Cecil was part of a "Jazz Weekend" at Bennington College (this was four years before Bill Dixon's arrival there, and seven or eight years prior to Dixon's establishing of the college's Black Music Division). Panelists include Cecil, arranger Hall Overton, and Bennington composition teacher Lou Calabro. Amiri Baraka (LeRoi Jones) is in the audience, as is Bernard Malamud.

https://bit.ly/2IyGtBu

His playing was so visceral and thrilling, hearing Cecil pounding out a thundering cluster of notes is one of the greatest things in the world.

man cecil

may your free spirit remain in free jazz

A couple of 10 second excerpts of his music on the BBC radio obit doesn't seem adequate, playing the entire side 1 of Air Above Mountains would have been a more fitting for such a star.

*tribute

I think about the first thing I heard about him was an NME article from the start of teh 80s that had a bit talking about I think John Coltrane having picked up a new piano that needed to be worn in or something. From what I remember it was located in his bedroom and he asked Cecil to play it, then sat on the bed dodging piano keys as they flew past him because Cecil played so hard.

I was also knocked out by hearing that he was a chess hustler since being able to think strategically that far ahead etc seems phenomenal.

I like his mid 60s stuff. Need to hear a lot more of his recordings though.

I was blasting out some of his 50's stuff that I hadn't listened to much previously this morning. Jazz Advance is an absolute classic, and with a young Steve Lacy in the band as well.

I think about the first thing I heard about him was an NME article from the start of teh 80s that had a bit talking about I think John Coltrane having picked up a new piano that needed to be worn in or something. From what I remember it was located in his bedroom and he asked Cecil to play it, then sat on the bed dodging piano keys as they flew past him because Cecil played so hard.

This was Sunny Murray, actually; I was just reading this story in Valerie Wilmer's As Serious as Your Life, which is an amazing book and highly recommended.

I was also knocked out by hearing that he was a chess hustler since being able to think strategically that far ahead etc seems phenomenal.

It was Anthony Braxton who was a chess hustler for many years in New York. Cecil had some real crap jobs in the early 60s; he was a dishwasher in jazz clubs that wouldn't hire him to play.

http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2018/04/eagle-god-turned-trickster-gremlin/

Although not a posthumous tribute, I liked this a lot.

"By temperament, Taylor had chosen ‘Out’ before Ayler, Coltrane or even Coleman, playing ‘free’ years before this became the term for the play, his example encouraging each of them to take similar steps."

I wrote something for The Wire.

Fenway organ, 1st inning: I assume that all @MLB organists are paying tribute to #CecilTaylor this weekend. I went with the intro to "Rick Kick Shaw" from his 1956 debut album "Jazz Advance," recorded right here in Boston.

— Josh Kantor (@jtkantor) April 7, 2018

Saw him on the festival circuit in 2002, lotsa heavies in the crowd soaking in the 88 tuned drums.

Nice piece Phil

I love this recording, one of his first (THE first?) collaboration with Sunny Murray...all three of these musicians dead within the last few months...too bad about the amateurish visuals

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jNJYe2tuUu4

yes, nice

I've been playing my boxset of 2 Ts for a Lovely T. what an amazing recording

WMSE had a nice 3 hour show celebrating Taylor. The 4/08/18 show:

https://www.wmse.org/archives/?time=64800

In Cecil Taylor's honor, @EMPACnews is *giving away* copies of 'Solo | Duo | Poetry,' 2008 DVD featuring Cecil performing with the great Pauline Oliveros. DVD also includes 78-minute focus on Taylor's poetry. You pay only 0 shipping. https://t.co/cMREGoGDNO

— Steve Smith (@nightafternight) April 10, 2018

$10 for, should say

I love Cecil as an artist and as a human being. And miss his presence already. This world just gets sadder and duller all the time. But what i mostly came to say is My God, he is expensive to collect! All the really important, "must have" stuff by him is just insanely expensive. I don't know, i guess i'll just have to keep downloading them instead.

I kee[ thinking that artist's deaths lead to reissue campaigns but not sure how true that is. Would be good if it was though.

All the really important, "must have" stuff by him is just insanely expensive.

Some of his career highlights (for me) are still pretty cheap and easy to find: Unit Structures, Conquistador!, the aforementioned trio with Bill Dixon and Tony Oxley on Victo. But yeah, his vast output on FMP is either not-exactly-cheap (around $30), crazy overpriced ($150 for The Hearth, a trio with Evan Parker and Tristan Honsinger), or just impossible to find.

I have really got into the unrelenting brilliance of his Feel Trio album with Oxley and Parker. Fuck, it is amazing.

I can't put my finger on what it is I like about Parker's contribution to this awesome recording, but I love any band with him in it.

The writer knew Cecil a bit so there are some good, reflective quotes from Taylor's past relationships with various people in the artistic Black community he was part of, and fought with.

http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/05/16/the-world-of-cecil-taylor/

Yeah, that's a beautiful piece.

It's funny, Taylor has a habit of viciously (and sometimes hilariously) shit-talking people he'd been friends and/or collaborators with for years, or sometimes decades, but no one's ever said, "Then why did you continue to work with them?" or "Then why did you make four albums and go on tour with that musician who couldn't grasp your music?"

Shatz also did a rather wonderful piece on Mal Waldron in The Nation last year.

My favorite nickname he had for a fellow pianist he wasn't too fond of (this was when I was assisting on a documentary about him) was "Herbulous Hunchback"

lol!

If I ever fully transcribe our "interview"/"conversation" for The Wire, I feel like I should subdivide it into categories:

- Cecil shit-talks his former collaborators (Bill Dixon and Ronald Shannon Jackson were the two who got hit hardest)
- Cecil shit-talks other musicians (Miles Davis was the clear winner here, though Keith Jarrett and the Rolling Stones came up too)
- Cecil praises other musicians, all of whom are dead (Billie Holiday, Horace Silver, Max Roach, Jimmy Lyons)

I just picked up the double of Cecil’s concert with Mary Lou Williams. I’d never heard of it, but now I’m reading it’s regarded as a disaster... but how bad could it be?

One weird thing about that record is the slap-back echo effect on Cecil's channel. Weirdly, for the most part, it works.

I love the record, and it's fascinating to hear each player edge towards each other's approach, however minimally or briefly. For some reason, though, whoever set the thing up did so not realizing that Cecil Taylor is gonna do what Cecil Taylor does. That was apparently a source of tension for Williams and (especially) her rhythm section.

https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/05/16/the-world-of-cecil-taylor/

As we ate, a procession of admirers and hangers-on stopped by our table to pay their respects. One was a tall West Indian man in a homemade white turban who called himself The Captain, and seemed to know Taylor well. I asked him what sort of work he did. “I do a variety of things,” he replied.

nice Shatz piece written shortly after his death. Blasting out Conquistador whilst reading it felt good!

Yeah, definitely one of the better pieces on Cecil. And my friend/collaborator trumpeter Arthur Brooks is in the photo from the Amsterdam Concertgebouw (far left, back to camera). Brooks and Frank Wright (far right, seated at the piano) were chosen by Cecil to be the co-lead soloists on an orchestra piece, and Brooks rehearsed the band. George Lewis and (I think) Anthony Braxton were also part of this group.

whenever I get about 10 mins into part 2 of Is It In The Brewing Luminous - I go into hyperbole mode and start thinking this is the greatest piece of art of the whole 20th century.

what happens later

usually someone walks into the kitchen and destroys my reverie with: turn down this shite i'm watching coronation st!

need to add cecil and acker bilk to the olimpo rock poster imo

did cecil have any opinions on does your chewing gum lose it's flavour..? tbh I've got a genuine affection for that one - with it being part of a load of ex-juke 45's that comprised my mum's record collection in my 70's childhood.

for those who are interested friend and musician alex ward has been creating a place to put his ongoing cecil taylor studies:

https://alexwardmusicblog.wordpress.com/

just happen to be listening to the last one Alex mentions: One Too Many Salty Swift And Not Goodbye. It's a reet set!

one too many salty swift and not goodbye on my stereo again... my goodness!

cecil taylor reads a poem (this is the first time i've seen footage of him reading his poems it is way better than looking at them printed on a page) https://t.co/XyzmTHxDQ1

— roland barfs (@rolandbarfs) May 4, 2020

everything about this is great. he has a lovely voice

is it you who put it on youtube ?

There were a bunch of CT spoken word things on ubuweb bitd

Still there! I actually wasn’t sure if ubuweb was still a thing

The scene in the tweet is from a 1981 documentary called Imagine The Sound. In addition to Cecil, it features interviews with, and performances by, Bill Dixon, Archie Shepp, and Paul Bley -- not with each other, as I don't believe any were on speaking terms with one other at the time. I think the film is on a streaming service (Amazon, maybe), not positive, though.

thanks for the context !

think this was posted upthread but it's gone now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_dfetfG6zA

live in paris 1969

the "student studies" 2xLP is a 1966 recording, but the angle / outfit of cecil at the piano in this video look just like the cover art of that release

JUst grabbed Cecil Taylor Unit cos I saw it online.

wondering what is essential by him.

GOt a couple of lps from the mid 60s and probably should have had more. Offcial stuff at least.

i found her cartoon doppelganger

https://i.imgur.com/AWj8YFB.jpg🕸

JUst grabbed Cecil Taylor Unit cos I saw it online.

wondering what is essential by him.

GOt a couple of lps from the mid 60s and probably should have had more. Offcial stuff at least.

Conquistador! is essential. As the FMPs go, you can’t go wrong with the percussion duos. And the orchestra work, Alms/Tiergarten (Spree), was called “the best thing Cecil’s ever done” by Bill Dixon. The recently-released Birdland, Neuburg 2011 (duo with Oxley) is amazing, both musicians confounding expectations at every turn.

it is in the brewing luminous is just so good, his 50's albums like jazz advance, looking ahead! have aged well ... ah too much essential. Even less celebrated albums like student studies, cell walk for celeste, the world of.. just get try the lot Stevo!

Silent Tongues is perfect

My recommended starting points:

• Everything by the 1978 Unit (Cecil Taylor Unit, 3 Phasis, Live in the Black Forest and One Too Many Salty Swift and Not Goodbye)
• Solo albums: Indent, Silent Tongues, Air Above Mountains, Garden vols. 1 & 2, The Willisau Concert
• The Feel Trio 2 Ts for a Lovely T box (10 live sets by Taylor, William Parker, and Tony Oxley)
• Conquistador! > Unit Structures, but you need both
• Cecil Taylor/Bill Dixon/Tony Oxley

Oh, and check out Momentum Space, a 1999 trio disc by Taylor, Dewey Redman, and Elvin Jones - often overlooked, but great stuff.

he's the greatest, there is no-one like him!

It might be easier to list the sub-par Cecil records:

- The Hearth, a trio with Evan Parker and Tristan Honsiger. Looks good on paper, but goes nowhere fast, and stays there.

- Algonquin, a duo with Mat Maneri. Maneri’s approach always struck me as too slick, and there’s very little tension or genuine excitement here.

- The Owner Of The Riverbank, a collaboration with the Italian Instabile Orchestra. Competent though these musicians may be, it’s 75 minutes of tentative “I don’t want to step on anyone’s toes!” mushiness.

- The Last Dance, a duo with Dominic Duval, one of the more distinguished members of the Unit in latter days. Unfortunately, this was apparently recorded on a phone from the back of the hall. A landline phone.

I remember liking both Algonquin and The Owner of the Riverbank, but I haven't listened to either one in years. There's so little of Taylor's large ensemble work available on CD that every example is valuable, I figure. I wish the 25 piece band I saw him with at the Knitting Factory in 2002 or so had been recorded.

I don’t see it mentioned much but Olu Iwa is maybe my fav - 2 longer live pieces, Peter Brötzmann on the 1st but not obvious most of the time. Winged Serpent also v good & relatively accessible from my POV. What I’ve heard of the 2 T’s box is good but it’s a lot of material

Jazz Advance & Looking Ahead were my way in as a Monk fan who was initially baffled by the later stuff

seconding Momentum Space

not recommended except for curiosity: awkward Coltrane collab floating around under both their names, feat. grumpily straight-ahead Kenny Dorham

I'm intrigued by the early stuff with standards and things being covered.
Guess I probably just need to hear it.
Have heard Fats wallewr being cited either by him or in reference to him. THink he was very aware of the early years of jazz even if it might not be immediately obvious from hearing his stuff initially.

What I’ve heard of the 2 T’s box is good but it’s a lot of material

It's a tremendous set, but for someone just getting into this group (Taylor, William Parker, Tony Oxley), Looking (Berlin Version) The Feel Trio and Celebrated Blazons might be better points of entry.

Also, the entire 2 T's box is, inexplicably, in mono.

yes. I never actually noticed the mono thing but now I’ll always hear it

wrt Taylor’s debt to jazz tradition (ellington another major influence) it’s probably been understated by both supporters & detractors over the years, who’ve tended to attribute his style mostly or entirely to the european avant garde

(therefore a betrayal of tradition to the stanley crouches of jazz - crouch himself repeatedly dismissing taylor as a charlatan/clown whose musical style is entirely a rip off of messiaen, which is so wrongheaded idek- almost certainly motivated by extramusical issues due to crouch’s reactionary sexual politics)

the centrality of dance & poetry to his work is probably also not recognised enough by fans (like me) with little to no understanding of those things

anyone know the origin of the recently released japanese titled albums on spotify

That's an early 70s solo album recorded in Japan. It's a companion piece to a live trio or quartet (I forget which) disc that's good but dense.

cool thx

there’s another one on the cecil taylor unit page which I guess is the trio set

"I'm intrigued by the early stuff with standards and things being covered."

he does some Cole Porter tunes on the fab Love For Sale album, but not in any kind of orthodox manner.

There's a hilarious bit on At Newport, from 1957, where he says, "Since this is a jazz festival, we think it fitting that we include some of the traditional forms — not the longer ones, the shorter ones — so we're going to do now our interpretation of the blues." The piece, "Nona's Blues," is barely recognizable as such. It sounds more like Conlon Nancarrow or something.

" He was always emphasizing his roots in the jazz idiom of Ellington, Monk and Horace Silver. But there’s also some Dave Brubeck in there, and he even took a couple of lessons with Lennie Tristano. The classical influences are obviously there, although you could never think of him as Third Stream. (The one person he really hated was Bill Evans. In fact, after I told him how much I liked Bill Evans, he didn’t talk to me for a few years!)"

I love reading quotes where other musicians are talking about musicians Cecil either hated or dismissed as garbage!

When I interviewed him in 2016 he talked to me about Horace Silver.

oh yeah he loved Horace Silver.

iirc (it's probably in this thread) he had a rude nickname for Herbie Hancock and didn't think much of him!

He hated Keith Jarrett - called him "Keithypoo" - but if he disliked Hancock it may just have been by association, because he haaaaated Miles Davis.

did CT hate miles for musical reasons? i suspect it was more abt behaviour but i don't know

(richard williams and val wilmer did a talk at cafe oto a while back where val was coaxed into hinting at some of the scurrilous stories she certainly knows, tho as usual she was mostly very nobly diplomatic)

(i hope she's written them down to be published after she's gone, i suspect she knows a LOT and she has an uncanny memory)

No, it was very personal - Davis's group and Taylor's group were part of the same touring package in Europe in 1969, and Taylor overheard Davis telling his bandmates, "Don't listen to him - he's bullshittin'". Never forgave him. Also Davis apparently snubbed him on the street in Manhattan once.

What was fascinating to me, talking to Taylor, was that his go-to insult for Davis was colorist - he called him "Inky"!

“Miles Davis plays pretty well for a millionaire.”

another factor, outside of the personal acrimony, and earlier on, i think is that cecil resented the fact the mile's band was seen as an institution, and so players like coltrane and later tony williams who were doing more experimental things were given a pass and getting regular work while cecil was essentially broke and having to practice on an old out-of-tune piano

When I interviewed him in 2016 he talked to me about Horace Silver.

― but also fuck you (unperson), Thursday, August 20, 2020 3:13 PM (thirty-one minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

oh yeah he loved Horace Silver.

― calzino, Thursday, August 20, 2020 3:14 PM (thirty minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

They were friends -- whoever was playing, if the other was in town, they'd go see him.

https://www.pescarajazz.com/upload_area/photos/0/1996_Cecil_Taylor_Horace_Silver.jpg

another factor, outside of the personal acrimony, and earlier on, i think is that cecil resented the fact the mile's band was seen as an institution, and so players like coltrane and later tony williams who were doing more experimental things were given a pass and getting regular work while cecil was essentially broke and having to practice on an old out-of-tune piano

― budo jeru, Thursday, August 20, 2020 3:45 PM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Possibly...but some of Cecil's contemporaries, who were in no better a situation than Cecil, loved Miles' band. Archie Shepp tried to sit in (and was rebuffed); and Bill Dixon was a massive Miles fanatic (and they had been fairly close friends in the late 1940s, at one time studying with the same trumpet teacher). Certainly, though, none of the musicians in the new music were happy with Miles shit-talking Cecil and Eric Dolphy in Down Beat, but that was part of the critical establishment's game: get an anti-new music critic (Leonard Feather) to interview someone known to be hostile towards the new music (Miles), and it bolsters the critics' position against the new music.

Tony Williams used to come to Cecil's and Bill's rehearsals at the Cellar Club in 1964, and asked to join. Bill and Cecil told him, "We're not working; Miles is working. Stick with Miles." And when Miles' band was at the Village Vanguard in early 1965, the Jazz Composers Guild Orchestra was rehearsing and performing two floors above. This irritated Miles, because his whole band spent their set breaks listening to (and sometimes sitting in with) the Orchestra, and Miles hated having to send for them when his sets were about to start.

right, tony williams undoubtedly admired cecil.

cecil himself i think is on record citing miles's influence, i don't think there's any question there.

i was just trying to point out how the loneliness and frustration of having to forge a path on one's own with essentially no infrastructure or financial support might have factored into cecil's resentment of miles as a person / personality (hence the "plays pretty well for a millionaire" quote above).

Yeah, I can definitely see how some personal resentment could stem from Miles simultaneously shitting on the new music in interviews while allowing (a certain degree of) it in his band, and never having to deal with any of the vitriol and lack of opportunities that the new musicians faced.

I've never known many likeable heroin addicts in my life, and that includes old school friends who I've known since I was 4 years old and family. They knick your wallet and then spend all night long slagging you off to anyone to will listen whilst high as fuck! That is probably a gross simplification there of course, sometimes I think Miles was an appalling person, even beyond the levels of appallingness you might gauge from reading books and gossip on him.

miles seemed to be at least as much of a prick after kicking heroin. idk how much sobriety there was between then & his coke habit but his dickheadery seems to be the rule with or without drugs. amazing the musicians he still managed to keep in his orbit

idk if coltrane really was the saint I want to think he was but he def seems to have handled his own addiction in a v different way

As well as heroin, I think the sheer difficulty of trying to lead/run a jazz group has always made for a certain amount of arsehole behaviour - definitely a streak of ruthlessness required just to survive - I'd never heard about Art Blakey deliberately getting various Jazz Messengers hooked on heroin as a way of controlling them, before I watched that recent Lee Morgan documentary

shit that’s sad. I knew that happened but not names

Leading a jazz band as a business back then was probably at least a 1000 times more difficult than being a low level electrical/plumbing contractor, especially when you are surrounded all sorts of competing egos/drug problems (including yr own) and dealing with racist cops and Amerikkka to boot, record companies skullfucking you, it must have been very stressful and some levels of ruthlessness would be normal practise and feel necessary to survive.

https://www.thewire.co.uk/in-writing/essays/cecil-taylor-his-mendota-players-snapshots-by-paul-ruppa

"During lectures, Taylor would sometimes read his highly personalised and often abstract poetry with dramatic pronunciation, clipped sounds and an occasional angry attack at or a hint of haughty disdain for fools in general."

memories and pics of early 70's Cecil when he was teaching a black music history course at Wisconsin uni

https://www.thewire.co.uk/in-writing/essays/cecil-taylor-his-mendota-players-snapshots-by-paul-ruppa🕸

"During lectures, Taylor would sometimes read his highly personalised and often abstract poetry with dramatic pronunciation, clipped sounds and an occasional angry attack at or a hint of haughty disdain for fools in general."

memories and pics of early 70's Cecil when he was teaching a black music history course at Wisconsin uni

Taylor did a trio gig at Jazz at Lincoln Center (w/Henry Grimes and Pheeoran aklaff I think); John Zorn's Masada opened. House was packed for Zorn, then Taylor cleared half the house and he barely started his poetry. I'm like, when did John Zorn become embraced by the mainstream? Masada was dull to me it all sounded like an Ornette Coleman tribute band. And in the 21st century Taylor blew the pseuds away.

NB Zorn's music and persona rubs me the wrong way, and the contrast in crowd reception between him.and Taylor reinforced my dislike but all respect for the stone and Tzadik.

Glad I didn't go to that. I saw Taylor at Avery Fisher Hall once; the set was half solo, half trio, and he started out reading/reciting poetry from backstage, gradually emerging, dancing all around the stage in his socks. He had that famous quote, "You don't simply walk to the piano."

Here's a puzzling quote from Ian Carr in the Cecil Taylor entry in Jazz: The Rough Guide, published 2000:

The whole jazz scene in the late 1950s was ripe for a shake-up, which happened with the advent of free jazz, and Taylor should have played a very prominent role as one of the trailblazers of abstraction, but the arrival in New York of Ornette Coleman, in the autumn of 1959, put Taylor completely in the shade, blighting his career for several years.

I can see how Ornette would be seen as more potentially accessible than Taylor, but surely the "free jazz" scene would have opened the jazz world up to more potential artists, not just expecting a flood of mini-Ornettes? And surely he wasn't well-known enough for an anti-Cecil Taylor backlash to "blight" his career? I'm curious what people here might have to say.

(Incidentally, I did a search on the words "arrival in New york of ornette" and found two very similar quotes in different sources saying similar things about Cecil Taylor being "eclipsed" or "consigned to the outside berth"; either this is common knowledge or someone is cribbing from someone else.)

Yeah, that's bullshit. Taylor released Love For Sale in 1959, which was his fifth album, and he made two more albums after that, The World of Cecil Taylor and New York City R&B. Then he went to Europe, made Live at the Café Montmartre (later expanded as Nefertiti, the Beautiful One Has Come) which was released in 1963, and then a dry spell hit; he didn't record again until 1966. But when he did, he was on Blue Note!

Cecil’s first recordings predated Ornette’s by at least two years, but more to the point, Ornette dug Cecil and Cecil dug Ornette. Ornette had a larger profile, it’s true, but it wasn’t at the expense of Cecil’s visibility. To suggest that that was the case is pretty simplistic and one-dimensional.

Exactly. You know whose career Ornette killed? The Benny Golson-Art Farmer Jazztet. They were on the same bill at the Five Spot, also making their debut, and after Ornette's band hit, the Jazztet might as well have been playing Dixieland.

The most puzzling implication is that it was only the distraction of Ornette that prevented Cecil Taylor from having greater mass appeal!
The book seems to have a grudge against certain elements of the free jazz scene: "it attracted a number of charlatans and inferior players". The writeup on Pharoah Sanders is dismissive of his career arc, and apparently Sonny Sharrock "actually boasted of his musical ignorance". At least it has a lot of detail about UK jazz musicians that wouldn't be in other reference works.

The book seems to have a grudge against certain elements of the free jazz scene: "it attracted a number of charlatans and inferior players".

Critics who fling around shit like this are, for whatever reason, utterly incapable of further articulating their point. What makes a certain player a "charlatan"? "Inferior" to whom/what? If Sharrock "actually boasted of his musical ignorance" why no quote backing this up? The answer to that is likely because what Sharrock has said -- "People used to get mad at me because I’d get hired for a gig and I’d say, ‘I ain’t gonna play chords. That’s guitar. I’m a horn player. I just play a fucked-up horn'" -- was deliberately misinterpreted to bolster that critic's agenda.

You know whose career Ornette killed? The Benny Golson-Art Farmer Jazztet.

I wouldn't say Ornette killed their career. He absolutely got a lot more publicity on that engagement than Golson/Farmer, but they had very long and fruitful careers. They knew they weren't playing the new music. But Farmer toured and recorded right up until his death (including for such prominent labels as CTI and Contemporary), and Golson is still alive and playing at 92 (and was apparently a significant influence on Coltrane, particularly Golson's recordings with Blakey).

And the pianist in the Jazztet, McCoy Tyner, went on to have a pretty decent career.

Here's the full sentence from the book:

Sharrock claimed to be the first guitarist to play free jazz, and so topsy-turvy had values become at the end of the 1960s that he actually boasted of his musical ignorance, saying he could write ‘but not read music. Do not know any standard tunes or any other musicians’ licks’.

Incidentally, Jazz: the Rough Guide has a blurb on the back: "Written by musicians rather than musicologists - and it shows!"

I haven't read a ton of Carr's work -- he wrote a serviceable but largely unnecessary Miles bio some years back -- but he sounds like someone for whom what Cecil and Ornette did was the absolute limit of what he would accept (or accept as "jazz"). And when a movement comes along that appears to dismiss tradition so forcefully, someone like Carr is ultimately going to be lost: his reference points no longer apply.

Can anyone recommend a good Cecil biography?

just to catch up on the ian carr stuff (sorry raymond)

— carr's original version of the miles book came out in 1982: "the definitive" (1999ish) was a later reworking and possibly was by then unecessary but i think the 1982 , and was possibly at that time the first book-length detail study (viz carr was a professional musician himself and dutifully slogs thru the musicology)
— my guess re the snidey stuff on charlatans blah blah is that this is a british critic struggling with the political wing of the new thing (musicians like shepp, even more so critics like baraka and kofsky) and riffing off on the notion (which i certainly recall encountering in the 70s) that some militants considered cecil too academically inclined to be making properly black music? hence that -- despite ornette's approval -- he encountered undeserved resistance? (and i mean the scene was not an uncomplicated love-in… )

it's worth stressing how very *distant* much british jazz commentary was from black US life even in the 70s -- really only val wilmer had good direct contacts and information, everything else was arriving second or third-hand, thru quite biased filters (and as serious as your life was only published in 1977: tho of course some of the interviews that feed into it predate this)

(i shd add that a relative i'm very fond of was close to carr and fond of him so i'm inclined to cut him a little slack just bcz family but he's not a sparkling writer lol)

s/b i think the 1982 , and was possibly

Can anyone recommend a good Cecil biography?

There isn't one. Ben Young has supposedly been working on one for about 15 years but I don't know if it'll ever be published. A.B. Spellman's Four Lives in the Bebop Business has a long and very good section on Cecil, but it's from the 1960s so it's all about his early years.

Also: Clark Coolidge, poet and drummer, has always been v. tuned in to Cecil: https://www.google.com/search?q=Clark+Coolidge+Cecil+Taylor&oq=Clark+Coolidge+Cecil+Taylor&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i299.18708j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Howard Mandel’s book Miles, Ornette, Cecil features about 60 or 70 pages of interview and analysis of Taylor, like a very long magazine article. It’s from 2008, so provides a different view to the Spellman book.

Mandel and I have had beef in the past so I never checked the book out, but I'm idly curious. Is it any good?

It's no Bobby's World.

wondering if anybody here has a .pdf of the liner notes for the "cecil taylor in berlin '88" box set. wouldn't be a bad place to look for info after the spellman and mandel books.

Found a used copy of the Mandel on ebay for $7.50, so I'll check it out when it arrives.

I remember enjoying the Mandel book; as I recall, the best section was on Ornette. The Cecil section was largely an interview, and as I suggested above, reads a little like a gossipy magazine feature: "I met Cecil at dawn on the subway, looking like he's much the worse for wear", "Cecil sweeps the white powdered residue off the coffee table before he answers", etc.

wondering if anybody here has a .pdf of the liner notes for the "cecil taylor in berlin '88" box set.

I think the only way to get that now is by purchasing it on FMP’s Bandcamp. I flipped through that book years ago and it’s mostly about the residency. Which, to be sure, is a significant part of Cecil’s career, but I don’t recall much in the way of biographical/historical detail. There are many, many photos, and recollections from the musicians he collaborated with during his residency. I don’t think any of it is duplicated in the individual CD booklets.

Thanks all.

My question was inspired by this Taylor interview from the early 1990s:

https://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/funkhouser/ceciltaylor.html

woah. i did not know there was (color!) footage of the '69 band with sam rivers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8esrU0T_J5Y

watched that last week there is a different longer one too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxk-mK-uQsU

short one from 69 in Maeght too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKmhOO-0Kyw

i dremt cecil was scheduled to give me a piano lesson but we kept being interrupted before it began (which on waking i feel is for the best)

A doc I helped edit in its early stages is now up on YT. I remember meeting CT a couple of times during the process and he was a gracious, sweet man.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Atu8dab3atc

Sure, it's on YouTube now after I paid like $35 for a DVD of it last month.

I think the ‘Complete Return Concert’ could be my favorite Cecil release period

Can’t believe anyone who likes Taylor wouldn’t like his poetry. It’s an essential part of setting the mood and I always found his poetic introductions led fluidly into the music.

I’m a fan of it, and it’s something he worked very hard at. The original plan for the Bill Dixon/Cecil 1992 duos set was to release a 2CD box (both artists preferred CDs to vinyl) with a large folio containing Cecil’s poetry and Bill’s artwork. Obviously, that set didn’t materialize until decades later, and in a less elaborate presentation. But Cecil’s poetry was something he very much wanted highlighted in that package, something more than the typical liner-notes treatment his poetry had usually been given on his releases.

I know he published some poems in small literary magazines here and there, too. At various points he talked about publishing a book but never did obviously.

Unperson, is that new Taylor/Dixon record available legitimately as a download. All respect to Rob Young but his insistence on making these expensive physical objects is annoying.

Nope. $95 for the vinyl or nothing! I was amazed he was willing to send me MP3s so I could review it for The Wire, and even then they were vinyl rips. He's a fanatic.

what release are you talking about?

Might have to troll the dark web

what release are you talking about?

Sadly, I think this is where things are heading..

Ten years from now you’ll go to watch a movie at one of the few movie theaters left for like $100 a ticket

xp yeah okay i'm scratching my head here thinking ... who tf is rob young lol

actually, i'm still confused. what is the new taylor/dixon release?

OK, to clarify: Triple Point Records is a label run by Ben Young, longtime WKCR employee (no longer there, I don't think) and author of the "bio-discography" book Dixonia (a very valuable resource if you're super into Bill Dixon and his role in the 1960s NYC out jazz scene in particular).

Duets 1992 is a double LP of studio duos between Cecil Taylor and Bill Dixon, recorded in France in 1992 and never released at the time. It came out on Triple Point in 2019 after much delay (I saw the cover art at the Whitney exhibition dedicated to Taylor in 2016) and sells for $95 plus shipping. Vinyl only, no digital (you don't even get a download with your purchase). The music is amazing and deserves to be much more widely available, but whatcha gonna do.

OK, i knew all those things but to be clear the post was referring to a "new" release put out by somebody named rob young so pardon my confusion

i appreciate the breakdown though, since folks may follow the thread and not know and i don't want the free jazz threads here to be cryptic or insular

i appreciate the breakdown though, since folks may follow the thread and not know and i don't want the free jazz threads here to be cryptic or insular

My feeling exactly. And to be clear, the reason this discussion cropped up is because I wrote in my Substack newsletter about a Cecil/Bill concert that I spotted on YouTube this weekend, which was the day before the studio recording session. Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVc3qMW1fSY

There’s pro-shot video of both that and their performance in Verona.

I probably posted this before, and it’s mentioned in the liner notes of the Triple Point set, but the original plan in 1992 was for a 2CD box (Bill and Cecil preferred CDs to vinyl) with a book of Bill’s artwork and Cecil’s poetry. Unsurprisingly, no label wanted to release it at the time, at least not on the artists’ terms. It would’ve been incredible if the eventual release was what was originally intended, with the addition of a DVD of the filmed performances, and maybe contemporary reviews of those shows (Bill and Cecil were on the cover of France’s Jazz Hot that summer, and that photo was used in the artwork unperson saw at the Whitney).

As irritatingly cumbersome, pricey, and gatekeepy as the Triple Point set is, at least it has the full backing and approval of the artists’ estates, and that the direct representatives of those estates are being compensated fairly.

my only musical controp is that Love For Sale is one of his best albums

not controversial in my household

I'll try and make it more controp by stating it his best then! Been reading the Thelonious Monk book and was amused that Cecil was initially barred from the Five Spot for breaking an already fragile and dilapidated piano. I love this guy so much.

RDG Kelley's book? i still need to read it, sadly

yeah, it's a tremendous read. I'm taking it slowly and listening to stuff referenced in it. It has taught me a few things and is so good.

Thought this revive would be for unperson's Cecil Taylor book, when's that out?

Not sure yet. Publisher's working on it. I just sent them back cover copy and an author photo today, in fact! I've seen a preliminary page layout, and I know they're talking to the folks at FMP and the Jazzinstitut Darmstadt about including some photos. They're also designing the cover using a painting I sent them. It'll definitely be out this year, though.

Ooooh

I’ve been bumping “calling it the eighth” lately.

i don't think Love is for Sale is my favorite album of his but it's *definitely* my favorite of his album covers

Recently spent a day at the Met museum with my headphones on, selecting music to pair with each group of painting and I chose Air Above Mountains for the Cezannes. Pretty clear resonance imo with their interest in 'underlying architecture' and constructing forms out of individual units. Wondering if Cecil Taylor has ever spoken about any direct influence from visual art or architecture

Wondering if Cecil Taylor has ever spoken about any direct influence from visual art or architecture

Yeah, he was a huge admirer of architect Santiago Calatrava's bridges and other structures; he talked about it many times.

He was a big art and architecture lover. Dantiago Calatrava gets a shoutout early on in the documentary “All The Notes”.

lol unperson beat me to it!

Nice, i should check out that doc.

If there's a print interview online where he talks about it that you know of please lmk!

Yeah, he was a huge admirer of architect Santiago Calatrava's bridges and other structures; he talked about it many times.

I didn't know that, but it actually makes a lot of sense.

freely available on youtube
it's the opening shot lol

you can check this out if you're looking for a print source rather than video:

http://www.furious.com/perfect/ceciltaylor.html

both Miles and Cecil were poshboys compared to Monk who was an autodidact born into struggle and struggled even when he was famous, and there is a fair bit of needle between Monk and Miles. Probably not all down to class resentment but more pride and the clashing out of control egos. But no surprise that Cecil was an urbane intellectual type, given his background. Not that it made life any easier being black in the US at the time.

But no surprise that Cecil was an urbane intellectual type, given his background. Not that it made life any easier being black in the US at the time.

Yeah, I deal with this a little bit in the book, the fact (often unremarked-upon by critics) that Taylor was absolutely a scion of the early 20th century Black upper middle class, if not the Black aristocracy of the era; he says in an interview I quoted that his father had the only brick house on their block, and his (Cecil's) name appeared in the society columns of local newspapers when he was a kid — the family seems to have come through the Great Depression entirely unscathed, and some relatives on his father's side lived in a gigantic manor house near Boston (part of the reason he wound up at New England Conservatory, I think).

I just realized despite the fact I love him so much I have no idea about Taylor’s background. Looking forward to the book, etc.

most of what i know is from the A.B. Spellman book, which i highly recommend!

https://press.umich.edu/Books/F/Four-Jazz-Lives2

thanks budo jeru! i think his intro in the doc was more interesting, if only because he took me by surprise when he referred to bridges as a time-based form

stumbled onto this a while ago and most of what i know about him is from here:
https://unitstructures.commons.gc.cuny.edu/abstracts/

no problem. i don't get asked every day if i can recommend a print source for Cecil Taylor's thoughts on Calatrava, but when it does happen i'm ready

haha, does the Institute of Jazz Studies need a reference librarian?

Yeah, thanks for that link budo jeru.

of tangential interest: this blog posted an audio recording of an interview with chantal d'arcy from 1963, who started Shandar records in Paris in the early '70s with encouragement from CT, and also issued recordings by Taylor, as well as Sun Ra, Terry Riley, Pran Nath, and others:

https://blogthehum.com/2017/04/02/a-rare-wonderful-and-insightful-interview-with-chantal-darcy-founder-of-shandar-records-from-may-23-1973/

I just got around to reading last month’s issue of Downbeat and saw the excerpt from unperson’s book. Crazy that he didn’t have a will.

There's so much more to that whole sad saga in the actual book. I had to cut it down by a lot to fit what I could into the issue, but I had a long phone call with a surviving relative (a cousin or a niece, I was never 100% clear on their actual relationship) who told me all kinds of wild shit. And then when I talked to people who worked with him at the end of his life (his court-appointed guardian, the guys from the Whitney Museum) and mentioned her, they were like, "Oh, Vanessa..."

unperson, what's the best way to order the book at the moment?

Amazon in the US, direct from the publisher in Europe. (They ship worldwide with DHL, though. Expensive but quick.)