CocoRosie member goes to "Kill Whitey" Ironic dance parties and gets called out by brainwashed.com as racist

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"CocoRacist: You're so Worldly, Hows Mom's Audi",

http://www.brainwashed.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3671&Itemid=9

curmudgeon (Steve K), Saturday, 5 November 2005 05:59 (fourteen years ago) link

WHOA

gear (gear), Saturday, 5 November 2005 06:02 (fourteen years ago) link

ibl :D

caramel voltaire (FE7), Saturday, 5 November 2005 06:06 (fourteen years ago) link

I first saw this 'gotcha' piece when Jessica Hopper linked to it. There were a couple of ILX threads on the Kill Whitey dance parties. While the brainwashed piece makes some good points, it's a tad sanctimonious if you ask me. Plus, brainwashed.com appears to musically only cover white indie-rock. While that's not be racist, it's not like they are exactly multicultural in their own practices.

curmudgeon (Steve K), Saturday, 5 November 2005 06:08 (fourteen years ago) link

maybe they find hip-hop albums really hardcore.

'Twan (miccio), Saturday, 5 November 2005 06:10 (fourteen years ago) link

There's only a few hiphop reviews...

CocoRosie made Uncut magazine's list of top 50 albums for the year.

From the Jonathan Dean, Brainwashed piece:

"While reading the article, I came across this particularly heinous quote from a typical, post-ironic urban hipster trust-fund baby:

'[Bianca] Casady was raised in Santa Barbara, Calif., but quickly notes her worldliness by listing the cities where she has lived along the trail to Brooklyn. A regular Kill Whitie partygoer, she tried the conventional (that is, non-hipster) hip-hop clubs but found the men "really hard-core." In this vastly whiter scene, Casady said that "it's a safe environment to be freaky."'


Who do you think that could be making such horrifyingly non-worldly, ignorant and racist generalizations about black men? Surprise! It's none other than Bianca Casady, one-half of sister duo CocoRosie, whose debut album won them high praise from Pitchforkmedia and The Wire, and whose recent album, Noah's Ark, was called "hypnotic" and "angelic-sounding" by Allmusic.com. My recent review for Brainwashed noted that the album sounded like "a collection of willful, calculated eccentricities clumsily juxtaposed with each other."

curmudgeon (Steve K), Saturday, 5 November 2005 06:21 (fourteen years ago) link

That she wants a safe environment in which to get freaky seems typical, she seems the type of chick who'd have a couple of safely "attempted" suicides in her past

Schwip Schwap (schwip schwap), Saturday, 5 November 2005 06:31 (fourteen years ago) link

aw man, not this again. :(

iDonut B4 x86 (donut), Saturday, 5 November 2005 06:34 (fourteen years ago) link

Seriously, how many times do we have to go over this?

One of the CocoRosie girls goes to a racially insensitive party!!!!! Scandal!!!!! I can't wait for the somethingawful.com take on this!!! whats the blogosphere have to say?

Mickey (modestmickey), Saturday, 5 November 2005 06:35 (fourteen years ago) link

The best part about this is the word "cocoracist," which I sincerely hope catches on.

Whiney G. Weingarten (whineyg), Saturday, 5 November 2005 07:48 (fourteen years ago) link

That she wants a safe environment in which to get freaky seems typical, she seems the type of chick who'd have a couple of safely "attempted" suicides in her past

Get your ass the schwippy the fwap out of here.

Nathalie, the Queen of Frock 'n' Fall (stevie nixed), Saturday, 5 November 2005 08:12 (fourteen years ago) link

Did she bring a bucket of fried chicken with her to get the admission discount?

Stuck to a Seat in the New Beverly (Bent Over at the Arclight), Saturday, 5 November 2005 08:32 (fourteen years ago) link

More than a little misogyny behind the Brainwashed piece, I feel.

They give a lot more leeway to the likes of DIJ and Boyd Rice. But then they're 'serious' industrial artistes dealing with the themes the straight world finds shocking. And big tough guys.

Soukesian, Saturday, 5 November 2005 12:00 (fourteen years ago) link

soukesian OTM.

what a shitty article, also obvs this guy as an axe to grind with the Coco girls, check the link to a previous Coco hate screed (this time about how they rip off Dresden Dolls). I can just picture this guy in his unlit basement apartment pacing around coming up with this stuff

eBay Item number: 7358717916 (mookie wilson), Saturday, 5 November 2005 13:27 (fourteen years ago) link

Yeah, this is tabloid hackjob bullshit.

Now I don't even like CocoRosie, but finding a regular hip-hop club intimidating (I'm presuming it has more to do with sexism than race btw, although it's hardly spelt out as such) but not finding a hipster equivalent the same = non shocker.

You could make the same assumption about Jamaican Dancehall vs. a Hollertronix party and still be TOTALLY missing the point.

Ellen Allien's said in interviews that she used to go to hip-hop clubs before getting into techno because (aside from digging the music) she didn't get strangers grabbing her behind at them. So, does that make her a racist when she's hanging out with Mad Mike and releasing Kero 12"s on her label?

Worst song, played on ugliest guitar (fandango), Saturday, 5 November 2005 13:54 (fourteen years ago) link

I fucked that up, she found less sexism at the techno clubs was the point I mangled there.

This is totally more of a sex/class/musical culture issue than outright racism (although it's certainly a factor, but not the whole story).

Worst song, played on ugliest guitar (fandango), Saturday, 5 November 2005 13:58 (fourteen years ago) link

The whole issue of "Kill Whitey" parties in the first place is still completelu UGH though. But that's a different thread.

Worst song, played on ugliest guitar (fandango), Saturday, 5 November 2005 14:00 (fourteen years ago) link

Oh god... fuck this thread and fuck these fucking fuckwits on all sides here. Retracting any attempts at making this whole thing look good. My comparisons above are way off the mark regarding this Kill Whitey thing vs. a regular Hip Hop club too. This CocoRosie girl seems more plain stupid than (knowingly) racist.

Worst song, played on ugliest guitar (fandango), Saturday, 5 November 2005 14:27 (fourteen years ago) link


I could be wrong, but maybe the reason they're under the "race" microscope is because they used the N-word in their songs. Not exactly cool to begin with.

Cliffy (CliffLevingston), Saturday, 5 November 2005 15:22 (fourteen years ago) link

Somebody call Maury Povich, 'cause that "expose" is pretty fucking trite. Brainwashed = Brainless

nancyboy (nancyboy), Saturday, 5 November 2005 16:30 (fourteen years ago) link

Before you guys respond further, I highly encourage you to visit the original thread:

This sounds like the worst thing

THe thread title is very vague, so newbies to this whole story are not to be blamed for missing it the first time, or not finding it via search..

but please read this, before fortifying another major deja vu thread.

iDonut B4 x86 (donut), Saturday, 5 November 2005 16:43 (fourteen years ago) link

Granted, Brainwash wasn't around to weight in during the original thread, but IMHO their editorial really doesn't say anything new, whether you sympathize with them or not.

iDonut B4 x86 (donut), Saturday, 5 November 2005 16:44 (fourteen years ago) link

I could be wrong, but maybe the reason they're under the "race" microscope is because they used the N-word in their songs. Not exactly cool to begin with.
-- Cliffy (clif...), November 5th, 2005

I see that as a bit different. I haven't heard the song, but I don't know what context the word is in. To outright say any white artist who uses the n word is racist is a bit off.

The Brainwashed article is clearly writen by someone who was waiting for CocoRosie to slip up so he could say "SEE, I GAVE THEM A BAD REVIEW WHEN THE ALBUM CAME OUT! LOOKS LIKE BAD PEOPLE MAKE BAD MUSIC AND I WIN ON ALL COUNTS!"

He also brings up HUGE topics and barely deals with them. Don't bring up something like post modernism being the death knell of culture and only mention that you heard it from some neo-Marxist.

And yes, the "dumb rich white girl doesn't really get it" angle was downright offensive in its own way.

Yes but the salad?, Saturday, 5 November 2005 19:01 (fourteen years ago) link

YBTS? OTM

Whiney G. Weingarten (whineyg), Saturday, 5 November 2005 19:07 (fourteen years ago) link

cocorosie publicist, OTM!

grindingaxes, Saturday, 5 November 2005 19:53 (fourteen years ago) link

uuuuuuuuuuuugh that other thread again. donut????? cocierosie give me a bad feeling, but i have *no other opinions* about the rest of this anymore. hopefully getting freaky being a softcore act is its own punishment.

Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Saturday, 5 November 2005 23:40 (fourteen years ago) link

maybe the reason they're under the "race" microscope is because they used the N-word in their songs. Not exactly cool to begin with...

I'm presuming it has more to do with sexism than race btw...

http://www.rarebeatles.com/sheetmu/solo/ssmjnigg.jpg

rogermexico (rogermexico), Saturday, 5 November 2005 23:46 (fourteen years ago) link

but she likes to dance to the idea above...but not necessarily participate in it. so it's about both sexism and racism.

Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Saturday, 5 November 2005 23:57 (fourteen years ago) link

Gosh i was HOPING we could discuss this some more!
Goodie!

Forksclovetofu (Forksclovetofu), Sunday, 6 November 2005 00:10 (fourteen years ago) link

i know, this is horrible. i don't really want to be involved. just thought for a second its interesting how she says she doesn't want to be treated that way yet is obviously entertained by white boys doing their mock sexual aggressiveness thing on her that they've borrowed from hiphop culture....what does it all mean? there's something retarded from every angle about this, yet i sense no one is really guilty. but still can't stand cocorosie -even their music seems like they're not participating.

Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Sunday, 6 November 2005 00:21 (fourteen years ago) link

Having seen them live, I can corroborate that statement.

Forksclovetofu (Forksclovetofu), Sunday, 6 November 2005 00:22 (fourteen years ago) link

The phenomenon of the KW parties is stupid and kind of insulting, but this piece goes way over the edge. It's quite possible that Cassady is not, in fact, a "trust-fund baby" as alleged by the piece, it's pretty unlikely that the majority of the party-goers will go on to become captains of industry, or whatever, and it's also possible that the hip-hop clubs she checked out were in fact kind of shady (though it's also possible that she just projected her fears onto them). In any case, criticizing these parties doesn't necessitate painting a klan hood on the photos of all their attendees.

Hurting (Hurting), Sunday, 6 November 2005 00:34 (fourteen years ago) link

what do you think happens at hiphop clubs? even in gay clubs you really can't go for long w/o having atleast some guy pull his dick out on you on the dance floor and the groping/grinding etc is a given. indie/hipster clubs are just safer than every other place-no one's ever pulled out his sickly pale indie-dick on me or even made excessive contact. i really don't think her stantement is about privileged white woman's fears of the unknown etc.

Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Sunday, 6 November 2005 00:58 (fourteen years ago) link

i still cant believe that the 'kill whitey' parties are national 'news'. wtf its just a party with a dumb name.

phil-two (phil-two), Sunday, 6 November 2005 01:57 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah, phil-two OTM.

i am sure every city in america has a party like this. the one i used to go to was called "booty bassment". the only difference aside from the name was that they didn't hand out a discount for bringing a fucking bucket of fried chicken (tasteless!) and the DJs didn't act and talk like total asses.

vahid (vahid), Sunday, 6 November 2005 02:12 (fourteen years ago) link

Susan's OTM about the actually benign meaning of the "safe to get freaky" line

curmudgeon high on crack on the subject of whether brainwashed liking or not liking hiphop has fuck-all to do with anything

Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Sunday, 6 November 2005 03:20 (fourteen years ago) link

Some things just aren't meant to be safe, man

Schwip Schwap (schwip schwap), Sunday, 6 November 2005 03:37 (fourteen years ago) link

Michael Bolton: How Black Music Changed My Life

Curt1s St3ph3ns, Sunday, 6 November 2005 04:52 (fourteen years ago) link

curmudgeon high on crack on the subject of whether brainwashed liking or not liking hiphop has fuck-all to do with anything...

Banana Nutrament (straightup@gmail.com), November 6th, 2005.


That's not what I said, Banana.

curmudgeon (Steve K), Sunday, 6 November 2005 16:29 (fourteen years ago) link

what do you think happens at hiphop clubs? even in gay clubs you really can't go for long w/o having atleast some guy pull his dick out on you on the dance floor and the groping/grinding etc is a given.

Wait, is that true?! I've never been the clubbing type (I don't think I've been to a dance club in the last 11 of my 29 years), so forgive me if I seem like a complete naif for being shocked at this. But I am. Men pull their dicks out on the dancefloor? Routinely?

I've been missing out! (kidding). That's fucking awful.

joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Sunday, 6 November 2005 18:15 (fourteen years ago) link

I don't think I ever got a chance to throw this on the other thread, so I'll toss it here: so far as I can tell, CocoRosie as an entity has a sorta complicated relationship with black people. There are the period-piece racial slurs on record; the whole overblown Kill Whitey thing; there's the fact that their "backing band" consists mostly of black people, and the last time I saw them they took the stage in Sean John sweats. I'm not sure it's worth trying to draw big conclusions from any of this stuff, apart from the idea that the sisters are, say, "interested in" or "engaged with" black culture or the idea of blackness. See them live, with all the beats provided by beatboxing black hipsters, and it seems a lot simpler and stranger: we might think of their music as some kind of "freak-folk," but they play it like it's intended to be some mixup of old-time scratchy jazz and modern r&b -- like Billie Holiday produced by Timbaland, or something (which turns out to feel more than a little like Portishead's aesthetic). How race works for them beyond that is a pretty open question, except for the obvious fact that it does something for them, and is at issue; their band includes black people and they're half-Cherokee, aren't they? So all this "trust-fund hipster racists" stuff seems to evade something way more interesting with these two.

Also yes, there is something so gigantically stupid and bizarre about saying the hipsters at Williamsburg parties are going to become "captains of industry." They're in their late twenties -- if they were ever going to do something beyond live in crappy lofts and play in bands, chances are they'd have gotten started on it by now. The bulk of them will get office jobs like everyone else, and the rest will wind up making cabinets or repairing amplifiers or running record stores or becoming publicisists.

nabiscothingy, Sunday, 6 November 2005 20:12 (fourteen years ago) link

Also yes, there is something so gigantically stupid and bizarre about saying the hipsters at Williamsburg parties are going to become "captains of industry." They're in their late twenties -- if they were ever going to do something beyond live in crappy lofts and play in bands, chances are they'd have gotten started on it by now. The bulk of them will get office jobs like everyone else, and the rest will wind up making cabinets or repairing amplifiers or running record stores or becoming publicisists.

shh nabisco you'll get in the way of the incipient class rage, how we gonna have a revolution without the class rage

Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Sunday, 6 November 2005 21:20 (fourteen years ago) link

You have class rage and still distinguish between economic class and social class! (Not that "hipsters" are even that far up the social-class scale; it's just a meaningless little pocket that people who pay attention to youth culture obsess over.)

E.g. I don't think it's coincidence that constant anti-hipster sneering (usually Williamsburg-related) coincided with the explosion of internet culture-talk: suddenly you can have bloggers with no significant experience of a particular hipster spot or place or scene who can look at the pictures and read about it in record reviews and develop some bizarro fantasy of a whole neighborhood of trust-fund racists with Flock of Seagulls haircuts doing coke all night and feeling superior to everyone. All shit that might, in some extreme instances, kinda vaguely trend toward certain realities, but it's still totally bizarre. Weirdest of all: the way "Williamsburg" become shorthand for NYC hipsters has created this class of people elsewhere who actually think it's a full-neighborhood hipster-trash party, despite the reality that Williamsburg looks and feels not that incredibly different from any "hip" younger neighborhood, anywhere, from San Francisco to Chicago to Philadelphia. That "captains of industry" line in particular is just kinda like ... well, this person's understanding of what he/she is talking about is massively divorced from reality.

nabiscothingy, Sunday, 6 November 2005 22:45 (fourteen years ago) link

some bizarro fantasy of a whole neighborhood of trust-fund racists with Flock of Seagulls haircuts doing coke all night and feeling superior to everyone

How dare you say that about Costa Mesa.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 6 November 2005 22:48 (fourteen years ago) link

(NB the last time some random person on ILX unleashed one of those weird Williamsburg fantasies, I found myself actually in Williamsburg later in the day, and I was really really tempted to take a cameraphone picture of the people on every street corner. I can't remember everything I was thinking about taking a picture of, but highlights included an everyday-middleclass black couple, some old Polish women walking a dog, a guy with very-unfashionable long hair and cargo shorts, a couple normal girls who looked like they'd probably work in publishing, and so on.)

nabiscothingy, Sunday, 6 November 2005 22:51 (fourteen years ago) link

a guy with very-unfashionable long hair

I knew I'd be on the cutting edge of hip one day.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 6 November 2005 22:59 (fourteen years ago) link

xpost-i can't say i'm being completely truthful.

Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Sunday, 6 November 2005 23:15 (fourteen years ago) link

I'm glad this thread ended up less vitriolic than past threads dealing with KW parties. I think you have to acknowledge that indie white kids pretending to be black for laffs often find the humor in the fact that its "white kids acting black"! ie, not that the blackness is funny, but that white people are too "awkward and square" to like hip-hop. I'm not trying to excuse these people, I just think its also possible that they are trying to confront the uneasiness of white/black relations. I just am not sure its as mean-spirited as everyone assumes. The fried chicken thing kinda destroys this argument tho.

whatever, Sunday, 6 November 2005 23:30 (fourteen years ago) link

they're not CocoRacist, they even go so far to use beat boxers. They should be called CocoRappers!

eBay Item number: 7358717916 (mookie wilson), Sunday, 6 November 2005 23:43 (fourteen years ago) link

Umm hey "whatever" -- Jesus, can you not see how you're following along these parties' thinking by assuming that there is such a thing as "acting black," and that what "blackness" consists of is dancing to booty-bass and eating fried chicken? Can you not see how that's the bulk of what's problematic about this stuff? Since when are white people too "awkward and square" to like hip-hop -- aren't there loads and loads of (mostly working-class) white people unironically living within hip-hop culture? And so why, if white people want to dance to booty-bass or engage in this kind of stuff, do they have to do it within the rubric of ironic blackness? I mean, this isn't complicated: the problem with shit like this is that it rises from some kind of assumption somewhere that "blackness" and stereotypes of it are the same thing, that there is fundamental and inherent "white" behavior and "black" behavior. And while shit like this pretends like "black" behavior is more fun and interesting and that "white" behavior is square and awkward, well -- as soon as you leave the context of a party, then suddenly that's the same old shitty thinking: that black people are fun and "cool," but white people are the proper rational ones who belong in corner offices and White Houses.

(And umm eBay, I'm not sure whether that's just a joke or whether you think you're making some kind of point; what I'm pointing out is that CocoRosie-as-band is actually about 50% black, and that they seem to think of their music as existing partly within a modern black-music idiom, and that their relationship with the notion of black culture is visibly way more complicated than any of these "I noticed her quoted in WaPo" articles bother examining.)

nabiscothingy, Monday, 7 November 2005 00:24 (fourteen years ago) link

Nabisco is relentlessly OTM in this thread.

Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Monday, 7 November 2005 00:24 (fourteen years ago) link

and guaranteed if the writer of the above article noticed the quote and it was from a band that he liked, he'd conveniently overlook it and he'd have no article.

gear (gear), Monday, 7 November 2005 00:28 (fourteen years ago) link

xpost

I mean, God, I can't fathom how young white people seem to think they're doing anyone any favors by saying they're so "awkard and square" but black people are cool -- all they're doing is switching the same old racist assumptions into some jacked-up compliment. (As if that hasn't been done before: "Black people have rhythm! And soul! Maybe they can come in through the back entrance and tap-dance for us!") All they're doing is reducing the whole notion of blackness to some rap-video caricature, one that still slots black people into a position of powerlessness (Ludacris can be "cool," but are you gonna elect him governor?) -- and, even worse, marginalizes and ignores millions and millions of everday "uncool" non-stereotype-fitting black people.

nabiscothingy, Monday, 7 November 2005 00:34 (fourteen years ago) link

cosigning nitsuh

but also guys, it's "kill whitIE" --

Nick Sylvester, Monday, 7 November 2005 00:35 (fourteen years ago) link

And by the way, CocoRosie-wise: like I said, there's something going on with them and blackness, and I'm not at all sure it's always a good thing. But it's not nearly as simple as writing like this wants to pretend; I can't for the life of me figure out exactly what's going on there, and to be honest I'm not going to spend loads of time trying to sort it out. It's noticeable and unusual and sometimes a little disconcerting; that's as much of a call as I can make.

nabiscothingy, Monday, 7 November 2005 00:38 (fourteen years ago) link

gear totally OTM about the Brainwashed double standard. Just think how many Douglas P quotes could fuel an article like that.

sleeve (sleeve), Monday, 7 November 2005 00:58 (fourteen years ago) link

There are greater injustices to battle than poor taste. Calling out "kill-whitey" (or Coco-whoever) as racist is engaging in a kind of culture-battle akin to blaming Marylin Manson or Murphy Brown for the actual ills of this world. I'm just sayin' there are greater fish to fry if you want to report on the destuctive forces of racism in this country. I agree the "kill-whitey" premise is not very clever or genuine (2 attributes I favor in my evening's entertainment) but nothing to make a federal case over. What I do find bothersome is the righteousness of the Post & Brainwash articles where the statements used are obviosuly framed with editorial bias and subjective slants. I say let the racists party. Fried Chicken or no.

Bobby Peru (Bobby Peru), Monday, 7 November 2005 01:05 (fourteen years ago) link

Nabisco is relentlessly OTM in this thread.
-- Matthew C Perpetua

Yes indeed.

moley (moley), Monday, 7 November 2005 02:21 (fourteen years ago) link

Ok, I think maybe I didn't express what I was trying to. Yeah obviously not every black person likes hip-hop or dancing or whatever but we don't live in a race-less, culture-less world. I don't mean to be racist, but I don't think that means you should deny a common culture around a group of people. Although it becomes less and less so these days, hip-hop was a "black" form of music. I think thats a pretty value-free statement, I mean its not negative or positive. And I don't mean to say that black people are rad and white people suck, I just think thats the popular perception, which it sounds like we agree about. So how do people deal with this, when you watch south park or chapelle show or late tv and all of the jokes are about how black people are great at basketball, white people sound funny when they say "yo what up g", etc, etc? I'm not sure there is an easy way to deal with the predominant stereotypes about the differences between black and white people. "And so why, if white people want to dance to booty-bass or engage in this kind of stuff, do they have to do it within the rubric of ironic blackness?" Should they be sincere? What if they sincerely wear baggy clothes and listen to gangster rap and use black slang? How far can you take appreciation, or appropriation, of a culture you aren't part of? Does it seem like that is really culturally acceptable, especially among white NY hipsters, to fully embrace black culture? I'm just trying to suggest that maybe these people sincerely like hip-hop and dress it up in irony because they are too scared to be honest about it. I'm also not sure that they were trying to make much of a statement outside of their own hipster community so I doubt they really thought through what other people would think of their parties. Again I don't really agree with these people I'm just not sure that we are discussing this rationally.

whatever, Monday, 7 November 2005 02:40 (fourteen years ago) link

and otm bobby peru, too.

Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Monday, 7 November 2005 02:46 (fourteen years ago) link

nitsuh, you should write a book on the subject of race. i would absolutely read it.

as someone who likes cocorosie's music (am i the only one on this thread?) i enjoy the fact that they engage race at all. my reading of them is that they are not racist, and that most/all of the racial content in their music comes from fascinations with certain eras/ideas (of [re]appropriation). i feel that there is no harm in that, and that there's actually a fair amount of good in it, being that it has managed to provoke this kind of dialog. whether or not she goes to these kill whitey parties is kind of a moot point. every couple of years i might want to hear zztop at a bar or something, does that mean in order to be socially conscious that i should go to a biker bar and hear it in its native clime? or is it ok for me to go down to the hipster bar's cock rock night? i don't think there's anything wrong with feeling more comfortable among one's own peer group. i'm not advocating some kind of policy for social segregation/insularity, but i don't want to go to a biker bar. y'know?

firstworldman (firstworldman), Monday, 7 November 2005 02:47 (fourteen years ago) link

but what if in order to listen to zztop you felt you had to wear a fake biker-jacket and paint on a silly looking fake beard?

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 7 November 2005 03:21 (fourteen years ago) link

sterling: you think that some folks don't do that already (re zz top)?

(Ludacris can be "cool," but are you gonna elect him governor?)

well, he hates bill o'reilly -- that's a pretty good start!

Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 7 November 2005 03:33 (fourteen years ago) link

THE GHETTO IS MY HOME

AND HOME IS WHERE THE HEART IS

DEUTSCHBAG, Monday, 7 November 2005 06:44 (fourteen years ago) link

i haven't heard a note of cocorosie's music, and based on what i've read on this thread they seem like a dumber, more pretentious version of gravy train!!! which means that i'll probably never intentionally listen to their music.

Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 7 November 2005 08:18 (fourteen years ago) link

I found myself listening to the first album next to Tom Waits' 'Real Gone', and realised that both mix some hip-hop techniques with a lot of early blues influences. Most of what has been said about their vocal delivery would also apply to Waits.

Soukesian, Monday, 7 November 2005 08:27 (fourteen years ago) link

kill whitey parties are about more than just posing (re: the waits comment). they're actually passively/unintentionally insulting black ppl.

sonore (sonore), Monday, 7 November 2005 08:34 (fourteen years ago) link

Dude, "whatever," you're doing it again -- why on earth would a white person listening to rap and adopting its slang be involved in a culture he's "not a part of?" Inner-city white people -- people of lots of different races -- do these things all the time, perfectly naturally. And it's not a class issue, either; nobody accuses middle-class black people (say, Puffy, or Kanye) of "appropriating" someone else's culture. And even if you aren't going whole-hog on digging into a culture like that, why would you need to indulge in racial caricature to appreciate it? White people don't put on pinstriped fedoras or tattered overalls to listen to blues; they don't usually put on fake dreadlocks to listen to reggae; they don't connect listening to Destiny's Child or Ruben Studdard with any huge significant form of blackness at all. It's only hip-hop -- everyone's standard caricature of what "blackness" is -- that brings this out; and while that's not unusual, since hip-hop is the conduit for the most "unfamiliar" or different notions of blackness our culture gets, it's still really telling: that unfamiliarity gets blown up to represents blackness as a whole, and all its other facets get totally eclipsed by a limited stereotype. In some cases KW-style dress-up needn't be any more malicious than, say, putting on a grass skirt for your Hawaiian theme party -- but in others its a clear indicator that some white people just can't disconnect the idea of blackness from a really limited, caricatured part of it, and can't disconnect the music from the race, and just generally can't grow up and be rational adults about this stuff.

I am absolutely the last person that would ever argue that we live in a race-less, culture-less world; I've spent ages on other threads arguing exactly the opposite. But it's ridiculous and annoying for anyone to perceive black culture as being primarily about booty-bass, fried chicken, spilled 40s, and whatever else our culture gets from a steady diet of mostly engaging with blackness in the form of rap videos (and not, say, gospel videos). And for the record, apart from just-funny-on-their-own guys like Chapelle or Eugene Levy, I'm not a big fan of "white guy drives like this, black guy drives like this" humor, no matter who it's coming from; mostly it's just tacky and banal, but it also has some of these much-deeper problems up inside it.

And I don't get your last point: you seem to be implying that these people love hip-hop but are just embarrassed to admit it? Why the hell would that be anything other than kinda-stupid? (And for the record, while I'm sure the people at KW parties like hip-hop as much as anyone else, the point of these things isn't exactly earnest appreciation of the music -- it's about a racial-caricature dress-up, which I'm sure is innocently fun in a Halloweeny kinda way, but problematic nevertheless.)

nabiscothingy, Monday, 7 November 2005 08:49 (fourteen years ago) link

And yeah, let's please note that black people indulge in these same caricatures of themselves just as much as white people do -- and I think some of the organizers of KW are black. This isn't some legalistic matter of what white people are or aren't allowed to say or do about black people; this is just a problematic free-floating habit that kinda sits around on everyone and just isn't really the best idea.

nabiscothingy, Monday, 7 November 2005 08:57 (fourteen years ago) link

nabisco - thank you for helping me to understand much better my own instinctive response to this discussion. i really appreciate the time you're putting into these responses.

i think it's interesting that a lot of the people who are attracted to the KW parties are gonna have arts degrees and read Fanon while listening to the Shins or whatever... and that they don't realise the problems the discourse of race that they are engaging with. no matter how "ironically" it's treated, these are real distortions - and you'd think they'd pick up on it.

sean gramophone (Sean M), Monday, 7 November 2005 09:24 (fourteen years ago) link

(cocorosie esp.)

sean gramophone (Sean M), Monday, 7 November 2005 09:24 (fourteen years ago) link

(NB Eisbar I haven't heard Gravy Train!!!, but from what I've read they're pretty far from CocoRosie; they're basically doing your usual semi-ironic comedy-"rap" raunchy/campy kind of thing, right? Whereas humor and camp don't really play any role in CocoRosie. Their music seems to strike most people as having something in common with "freak-folk," with the wax cylinder / faux-old-timey / faux-Billie Holiday vocals we used to get from Devendra, whom one of these girls dates -- it's very loose and rickety and "antique" scratchy, which is sometimes a decent effect and sometimes just a fucking mess, and their vocals have the same indie-version-of-"old and soulful" quality you've probably kinda-heard with Cat Power. One of them actually has an amazing voice, kinda like a theremin doing opera; the other one is mostly just doing nasal fake-Holiday. But in that Holiday way, the melodies can be sleepy-sensual and melismatic, and when you add a slow tick-tock beatboxer, that comes out a pretty r&b, the same way throwing Timbaland beats behind an actual Holiday vocal would. Which wouldn't be a bad idea, if only their albums and shows didn't tend to be just a self-indulgent mess of "interesting" tape noise or lazy performances. You hear them and it's like you're hearing some early jacking-around figuring-out-our-sound artifacts from a band that later became pretty okay -- except oops, this is their sound, and there's like zero indication that they'll ever get beyond that.)

nabiscothingy, Monday, 7 November 2005 09:53 (fourteen years ago) link

Nabisco-
Ok first, I'm not addressing other forms of black culture because I didn't really think thats what we were discussing, not because I actually think that hip-hop represents the entirety of black culture. I agree that it is a problem that a lot of people have that as the sole source of what is "black". But I'm also not sure that you can completely "disconnect the music from the race" like you suggest. I think that its especially difficult to discuss the issue of white appropriation of hip-hop as its extremely widespread and a pretty sensitive issue. "why on earth would a white person listening to rap and adopting its slang be involved in a culture he's "not a part of?" Well I think that there are a lot of cultural and political ideas addressed in hip-hop that white people, especially middle-class white people can't really ever be a part of. So yeah I mean I guess you can be part of hip-hop culture by appreciating the music and, if you want to, dress and act in ways that are stereotypically associated with hip-hop (whether or not they are correct), but do any of these kids "own" hip-hop in the way that black hip-hop fans do? I mean I feel like a lot of hip-hop, certainly not all of it, but probably most of it deals with inner-city life. Can you really ever claim to appreciate it on the same level of people living in the inner-city if you grew up in the suburbs? And if not, where is the line between appropriate appreciation, and charicature? This obviously isn't limited to hip-hop, it applies to any form of art associated with a specific group of people, that outsiders try and buy into. But are you arguing that there shouldn't ever be any boundaries, and that you should, so long as it is sincere, be able to opt in to any culture you want? PS, I pretty much agree with most of what you are saying, I think that the whole concept of Kill Whitey is pretty awful, but I think it brings up some interesting issues. What I'm more interested in, is how can you determine what respectable appropriation of culture is?

whatever, Monday, 7 November 2005 10:08 (fourteen years ago) link

Appreciation isn't appropriation, and even Vanilla Ice spent his teenage years getting out and genuinely engaging with hip-hop. Lots of white people participate in this stuff, earnestly and normally, whether it's because they have the same "inner-city" background or whether it's because they just like the stuff; and lots of white people appreciate it with an earnest-and-normal awareness of the spots where their experience won't match up with the world being described -- the same way people non-neurotically appreciate blues, or Afro-funk, or any of the countless other musical forms containing a "cultural and political" that the listener isn't necessarily a part of. You don't see people freaking out about liking salsa music.

What's funny to me, "whatever," is that the paranoia and neurosis being dealt with here comes largely from the white side of the issue: it's not as if black people, by and large, are gonna have some massive problem with a white person who sincerely tries to get involved in this music! It seems more like white people are just scared over the idea of having to enter a black context, and to have their whiteness suddenly be an issue -- to have it suddenly make them stand out, to be "out of place" in the game of racial expectations, and for there to be the chance that they'll be negatively singled out for it. But hey, congratulations, white people: welcome to being black in America!

Yeah, welcome to being "the black guy" at your office, or a black student at an Ivy League college. And this, right here, is the nasty undercurrent kinda tainting the flipside of what you're saying up above. If these problems of "appropriation" attach to everything, and not just hip-hop, isn't the implication that it's wrong and strange for a black woman to learn classical cello? Isn't the implication that Condoleezza Rice is play-acting a "whiteness" she doesn't belong in? Isn't the implication that white people "belong" in the dominant culture, and black people "belong" strictly in some booty-packed video, and not in the dominant culture around them? You're working on the assumption that the dominant culture of board room and governorships is common and open to everyone -- that there is no culture of whiteness -- and that the only issue is crossing into a culture of "blackness." But as soon as you construct this culture of "blackness," you're acknowledging something outside of it, and in the process doing something unfortunate -- unless you imagine a president who says "what up, g."

nabiscothingy, Monday, 7 November 2005 16:36 (fourteen years ago) link

Have I misread something, or do CocoRosie use the word "nigger" in a lyric somewhere? I'm unclear about how they address race in their music (I have only heard their song on the Believer comp., but I thought it was pretty unique).

Caught Red Handed at Sam's Hofbrau (Bent Over at the Arclight), Monday, 7 November 2005 16:59 (fourteen years ago) link

Nixon!

http://www.watergate.com/image/liddy3.jpg

x-post

And oh what a pity the world's not white
Oh what a shame i don't have blue eyes
God must have been a color blind
If i made the world it would be all white...


Jesus loves me
But not my wife
Not my nigger friends
Or their nigger lives
But jesus loves me
That's for sure
'Cause the bible tells me so ...

'Twan (miccio), Monday, 7 November 2005 17:04 (fourteen years ago) link

>How far can you take appreciation, or appropriation, of a culture you aren't part of?

Ask Charley Pride.

>I mean I feel like a lot of hip-hop, certainly not all of it, but probably most of it deals with inner-city life. Can you really ever claim to appreciate it on the same level of people living in the inner-city if you grew up in the suburbs?

What about rappers from the suburbs like De La Soul, Public Enemy and Ice Cube?

pdf (Phil Freeman), Monday, 7 November 2005 17:04 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah they do. contextually it's used in a period piece-y way. it always seemed find to me because it's used artistically. i'm not saying that it's not contrived, but it's dangerous to impose too many restrictions on what can and/or should be said by an artist (hello, my name is obvious).

firstworldman (firstworldman), Monday, 7 November 2005 17:05 (fourteen years ago) link

find = fine

firstworldman (firstworldman), Monday, 7 November 2005 17:11 (fourteen years ago) link

Paul Wall to thread

curmudgeon, Monday, 7 November 2005 17:15 (fourteen years ago) link

And it's not a class issue, either; nobody accuses middle-class black people (say, Puffy, or Kanye) of "appropriating" someone else's culture.

nitsuh do you actually know anyone who listens to rap music?

_, Monday, 7 November 2005 17:19 (fourteen years ago) link

that's REAL rap music, mind you

'Twan (miccio), Monday, 7 November 2005 17:25 (fourteen years ago) link

im just sayin

_, Monday, 7 November 2005 17:26 (fourteen years ago) link

(Grr yeah I know, Ethan, but I'm talking about the perspective of white people who freak out about this stuff. There's plenty of class shit at work from the other direction, but because some white people think of it as a black/white issue, someone like Puffy makes sense to them -- whereas within hip-hop and among black people it's more of a "real" / "not-real" issue.)

(I was actually wanting to add on the way to work something kinda about that -- about how even among hip-hop's black audience, I'd venture that like less than 5% are actually living the lives described in some of the music, and less than 25% are even much brushing up on it. What's weird, though, is that the bulk of the hip-hop white people know is primarily about partying and women and making money, an experience that's in no way limited to blackness or the "inner city." White people get hot in here and take off all their clothes, too.)

nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 7 November 2005 17:28 (fourteen years ago) link

well yeah i think whats often not discussed in hiphop racial issues is that most black people see rap music as ridiculous and over-the-top and disconnected from their normal lives as the supposedly clueless white people do

_, Monday, 7 November 2005 17:31 (fourteen years ago) link

White people get hot in here and take off all their clothes, too.

-- nabisco (--...), November 7th, 2005.

TMI dude

_, Monday, 7 November 2005 17:31 (fourteen years ago) link

I don't have anything constructive to add so I'll just say that while issues of race and class are complex and merit intensive discussion, sometimes it comes down to a simple dictum: "Don't be retarded." The KW parties seem to violate this dictum. I wouldn't go to one for much the same reason I wouldn't go to a midtown ibanker bar or one of those meatpacking district clubs with a "table fee"--they're retarded environments filled with retards. (That this is the best thing I have to say about all this is partially why I avoided the other thread. Sorry for being a latey McLaterson.)

Cocorosie violates a sort of corollary, like "don't be retarded unless it works." White girls dropping the n-bomb isn't always a bad thing but the way they do it is soooo clunky it really kills the song which is actually a fairly good song. (More here if you care.)

Eppy (Eppy), Monday, 7 November 2005 17:33 (fourteen years ago) link

xpost

I mean nobody's calling Kanye a wigger or accusing him of "acting black"! That's kinda my point here, that neurotic-about-hip-hop white people make it this huge connection about race, even when they know (check whatever's posts) that it's about a cultural experience or whatever (as described by "real"). And for the record I find it just as annoying when black people construct the same linked notions of "real" and "blackness," cause it does the same vaguely dangerous stuff.

100% right, Ethan, except I think the difference that's messing with people is that if you're like a black kid in Indiana listening to hip-hop you still have some kind of imaginary "in" to identify with the stuff that white people somehow build themselves up into lacking. And in both cases that's just weirdo race-linking stuff, more or less.

nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 7 November 2005 17:35 (fourteen years ago) link

(Also, Ethan, I don't get the TMI: did you forget I'm not white? Have you forgotten your ILX roots?)

nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 7 November 2005 17:43 (fourteen years ago) link

i dunno in enviroments with conservative or middle class black people its never felt weird or uncommon that im connected to lots of trap/hood/gangsta music as a white kid, like you said most of the racial horror at white folks not being accepted to black culture is just made-up and has lots more to do with white guilt for oppression and republican/religious right-style "persecuted majority" fantasies than any real cultural segregation. ive been the only white person in so many clubs ive lost count and every time an older white person learns what i do for a living i get the old 'why would THEY want to be down with a WHITE person!?!?!' bullshit, its just an excuse whites use to not to engage with parts of black culture they dont like, sour grapes 'they wouldnt want me there anyway' bullshit. i do think the average black person is more likely to have a connection to the content or, well, meaning of hiphop just through appropriation of a a shared black community and ancestry, whether its the goody two shoes with a cousin dealing in bankhead or the 55 yr old who appreciates that t.i. samples donnie hathaway theres just more of a shared cultural context even though rappers are a vastly overrepresented percentage of the black population and as shorthand for "blackness", something white folks have plenty of self-serving reasons to perpetuate

_, Monday, 7 November 2005 17:51 (fourteen years ago) link

haha xpost it was a joke about you fucking white indie girls

_, Monday, 7 November 2005 17:51 (fourteen years ago) link

jesus christ who the fuck cares about any of this shit

die horrible deaths, Monday, 7 November 2005 17:52 (fourteen years ago) link

GASP, they say "nigger!"

Meanwhile, three posts in this thread have used the word "retarded" with far less artistic motive.

Whiney G. Weingarten (whineyg), Monday, 7 November 2005 17:52 (fourteen years ago) link

i cant believe ive been accused as using you as a racially convenient prop for my own opinions and as thinking youre white in the same week!

_, Monday, 7 November 2005 17:53 (fourteen years ago) link

xpost it seems like every race thread always brings out the ilxers desperately fiending to post the n-word with the excuse of making a lame point

_, Monday, 7 November 2005 17:54 (fourteen years ago) link

Yeah, but retarded people are funny.

Eppy (Eppy), Monday, 7 November 2005 18:17 (fourteen years ago) link

Eppy OTM.

sean gramophone (Sean M), Monday, 7 November 2005 20:01 (fourteen years ago) link

I dont think you even need to be a white dude who's connected to lots of trap/hood/gangsta music to see what Nitsuh's saying, just being a white dude liking rap music without setting it up against 'the bad stuff' or saying 'because its so silly!' will bring out that kind of 'what do you think you're not white or something?' But that reaction is always from white people. I mean not that there aren't race landmines a well-meaning whiteboy isn't dancing around all the time when he's partying with non-white folks, but if yr not being condescending or whatever no one is going to get mad at you for taking black music seriously.

deej.. (deej..), Monday, 7 November 2005 20:25 (fourteen years ago) link

x-post-a-lot
um, I guess I don't really have much to say. I think theres a pretty big difference between buying into a minority culture and buying into the "dominant" culture though. Culture and identity are important tools for any repressed people. And I don't really buy that theres a white culture so much, because its so everywhere and in your face that it has no meaning to white people. At least not to me anyway, I don't really feel like being white and american gives me any cultural pride or anything. Plus all of that mainstream/white culture is created by (white-owned) corporations and so has no cultural value anyway. And in response to "--"'s comment, "white guilt for oppression...bullshit, its just an excuse whites use to not to engage with parts of black culture they dont like, sour grapes 'they wouldnt want me there anyway' bullshit." I dunno, I like rap a lot but I basically assume that black people would (rightfully) resent me for being too into it. I think white people should feel guilty. Maybe I am really wrong about this stuff though.

whatever, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 02:15 (fourteen years ago) link

i think white people should feel guilty for the priveleges gained from 400+ years of ongoing racism, theft, and oppression, not for hanging out w/ black people and listening to rap music

_, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 03:32 (fourteen years ago) link

There are more posts in this thread than people worried about or even aware of the subject matter.

Chris Ott (Chris Ott), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 03:43 (fourteen years ago) link

ott i cant say i really trust your statistical capabilities after you claimed pfork has 30 million unique readers or whatever

_, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 03:57 (fourteen years ago) link

I thought that (the whole oppression thing) was what white kids felt guilty about, which was preventing them from hanging out with black kids and listening to rap music.

whatever, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 04:06 (fourteen years ago) link

how does that make sense?

_, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 04:17 (fourteen years ago) link

"the young lady said she's afraid of violence. and isnt it sad that we, who have been the victims of so much violence- now, whites fear violence from us. we do not have a history of killing white people. white people have a history of killing us. and what you fear- may i say this sir? what you fear- and its a deep guilt thing that white folks suffer- you are afraid that if we ever come to power, we will do to you and your fathers what you and your people have done to us. and i think you are judging us by the state of your own mind, and that is not necessarily the mind of black people" - louis farrakhan on donahue in 1990

_, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 04:19 (fourteen years ago) link

I don't want to be around people who should by all rights think I'm an asshole? I can't really do anything about being an asshole though. "you are afraid that if we ever come to power, we will do to you and your fathers what you and your people have done to us". That sort of thing wouldn't be justifiable, but it certainly would be understandable. What am I supposed to say to something like that? "I know that my people are responsible for slavery, and following that, regulating your people to the underclass. Hey, did you hear the new Dead Prez? It wasn't really as good as their first album."

whatever, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 04:45 (fourteen years ago) link

maybe black people think youre an asshole because youre terrified of them

_, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 04:49 (fourteen years ago) link

really what the fuck is wrong with you, do you think these black racist savage fantasies are ok just because you dress them up with white liberal guilt? "the negroes would kill me in a second if they got the chance.... which is understandable!"

_, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 04:52 (fourteen years ago) link

'bisco: the problem I have with Cocorosie is their tremendous level of pretention. It wasn't an issue on record, but live... with their fractalized care-bear backdrops and their harlequin masks and their gaudy gold marijuana leaf necklaces and neck tattoos... it's inescapable. Issues of race aside (and incidentally, I'm not sure I've ever noticed any of those in coco's music), it's the sheer posturing of the band that takes me away from being able to dig it. Conflating that posturing with racism because they perform in a "black idiom"... with beatboxers (from France, even!) and sorta kinda almost RAP... is, of course, DUDLEY.

Forksclovetofu (Forksclovetofu), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 05:30 (fourteen years ago) link

x-post
Ok, I'd really like to understand your point of view, and it would make it easier to talk with you if you would avoid outright calling me racist and instead focused on making rational arguments. Seriously though, I'm willing to be convinced. I mean I'm not sure I've said anything that indicates I have "black racist savage fantasies". Maybe it would help if you knew that I think that Middle Eastern people would resent me for being American, women would resent me for being male...? I mean I'm not saying that of course this is the only way people will ever react to me but all the same time I do feel guilty and I feel like people have a right to be angry about these kinds of things. I don't think I'm the same as black people no more than I think I'm the same as hispanic people or asian people or whatever. That isn't meant to be a value judgement. But what do you think is the way to relate to people that are different from you? Just pretend like the differences don't exist? Honestly I'm trying really hard here to be honest and reasonable and I feel like I'm only succeeding in angering people, which I'm really not trying to do. I mean I really am sorry if I am offending you or anyone else.

whatever, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 05:32 (fourteen years ago) link

btw I do appreciate you taking the time to respond to the things I've written. I just want to understand how it is that I'm taking a racist point of view.

whatever, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 05:39 (fourteen years ago) link

sorry i was just being a dick! i dont really think you hate non whites or whatever, you just seem really provincial and withdrawn about knowing your "place" with other liberal white folks (a position which is afforded by white privlege - black people dont get to decide whether or not theyre comfortable in white american culture) even though i would imagine like every white american you participate in black culture (lit, food, art, song) and come in contact with black folks on the daily (friends, work, school, bank), so it becomes a matter of guiltily presupposing how youll be treated by a minority which continues to be rightfully bitter over how they got fucked and continue to be fucked over by white america. does this translate into blanket hatred for whites? well overwhelmingly not in most anybody i know, even militant panthers preaching about the impossibility of negotiations with the white man still give me a pound and say whats up, and 99.999% of black americans are much less separatist than that- shit. look at the farrakhan quote! i mean dont act like a cocky jackass who thinks they own black culture, but dont act like youre being persecuted either. this will amaze you but most people are friendly regardless of ethnicity! and non-whites have been behaving diplomatically towards other races for much longer than white folks have! i assume when you talk about being white and engaging in black culture you mean a specific, presumed black majority part of it, not watching ice cube in friday or reading nikki giovanni or whatever. you probably mean gangsta rap music or radical politics, or black barbershops and community stuff. there is a long tradition of white participation in black culture, from abolitionism to the civil rights era to booker t & the mgs. i dont think you have to "pretend the differences dont exist". i make jokes about my white country south carolina redneck ass all day. im not ashamed of being white for the sake of it. i am ashamed of benefiting from a racist system of oppression and jim crow and all that. i am ashamed of subconscious racial attitudes i see in myself. every white person needs to be aware of that, to understand how much blood is on their hands and predjudice built in your heart, but to let it cripple you with fear & cause you to segregate yourself into an all-white society just because youre frightened of some fury of justified black rage, that isnt just wrong, its harmful. i dont think we live in a post racial society, and i dont believe we should. but when you ask me how to "relate to people that are different from you", i think this says a lot more about you than anyone else in the world.

_, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 06:23 (fourteen years ago) link

sorry thats long as hell, its way too late!!! really that quote (thx to darius james transcribing it - like i watched donahue when i was 7) sums up what im tryna get to, when you got dude like farrakhan going 'look white folks just calm down its cool' re: race mixing you know hes for real on that, to me the whole idea for guilty whites to opt out of any actual dialogue and just talk to other white folks about how bad slavery was is some of the most racist bullshit going nowadays. and despite probly sounding like an asshole i really do understand what youre talking about here, growing up w/ my mom i was the typical colorblind upn sitcom white kid but when i got around jr high/high school age there was times at friends houses or restaurants or clubs where i felt really awkward being the only white person and i imagined that sort of racial unwelcomeness - all eyez on me- but really it was just my own bullshit, and i wish other whites would get the fuck over themselves and their special racial status and crying tears for their string of victims long enough to realize thats what its like for them too

_, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 06:37 (fourteen years ago) link

Yeah, honestly, that is a pretty accurate description of what I am like. I grew up in an incredibly segregated town, which is horrible, especially given that I grew up in a supposedly "liberal" town south of San Francisco. The segregation was based on wealth more than racism, I suppose, but that doesn't make it much better. "most people are friendly regardless of ethnicity", I'm not really comfortable around other white people or really people in general, which maybe I'm right or maybe I have social anxiety or something. I mean you say "black people dont get to decide whether or not theyre comfortable in white american culture", I don't really feel comfortable in that culture either. I mean obviously, people don't act racist towards me, I don't have to worry about being denied a job because of my ethnicity, etc, so I don't have to face the problems that so many people have to face. But I'm still not sure how to address the fact that I have obviously enjoyed privilage by being white. I guess, to try and get back to the topic of this thread, that was what I was trying to say about the people that attend Kill Whitie parties. Not that they are necessarily racist (at least in intention, it seems they are in action), but that they simply are misguided and don't really understand how to confront issues of racial identity. "i wish other whites would get the fuck over themselves", yeah I pretty much have that problem in all relations and not ones with racial aspects. I dunno, I really have to figure this out for myself I suppose, but thanks for sharing your views with me.

whatever, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 06:47 (fourteen years ago) link

PS sorry everyone else for hijacking the thread. I'm done now. Please continue with the racial discussion as it pertains to CocoRosie.

whatever, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 06:52 (fourteen years ago) link

haha wikipedia:
"During this period, Bianca studied linguistics and sociology, and pursued her passion of visual arts and writing. She also managed to collect a variety of tattoos, and was known to attend "Kill Whitey" parties in Williamsburg, Brooklyn."

noizem duke (noize duke), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 08:45 (fourteen years ago) link

With any luck, CocoRosie's album will tank as ethically-savvy music fans refuse to buy it and educate their friends; "Cool" record shops will refuse to stock or sell their records, and tell their customers why. After disappointing sales, their label will dump them and they'll be exiled as pariahs, with as much chance of selling records as Gary Glitter. Then anybody else who thinks it's "cool" to be ironically racist will have the burnt-out wreckage of CocoRosie's career and credibility to behold as proof otherwise.

Alternatively, they'll take the hint, become even more hipsterishly abrasive and sell lots of records to the skull-attired coke-snorting nihilists who think that giving a fuck about issues is gay.

acb (acb), Friday, 11 November 2005 20:54 (fourteen years ago) link

Despite all this talk I don't see how Cocorosie's fan base is any more NYC-hipsterish than, say, Cat Power's -- slightly more, I guess, but the mainstream on both seems to be just sleepy college kids.

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 11 November 2005 21:45 (fourteen years ago) link


Yeah, honestly, that is a pretty accurate description of what I am like. I grew up in an incredibly segregated town, which is horrible, especially given that I grew up in a supposedly "liberal" town south of San Francisco. The segregation was based on wealth more than racism, I suppose, but that doesn't make it much better. "most people are friendly regardless of ethnicity", I'm not really comfortable around other white people or really people in general, which maybe I'm right or maybe I have social anxiety or something. I mean you say "black people dont get to decide whether or not theyre comfortable in white american culture", I don't really feel comfortable in that culture either. I mean obviously, people don't act racist towards me, I don't have to worry about being denied a job because of my ethnicity, etc, so I don't have to face the problems that so many people have to face. But I'm still not sure how to address the fact that I have obviously enjoyed privilage by being white. I guess, to try and get back to the topic of this thread, that was what I was trying to say about the people that attend Kill Whitie parties. Not that they are necessarily racist (at least in intention, it seems they are in action), but that they simply are misguided and don't really understand how to confront issues of racial identity. "i wish other whites would get the fuck over themselves", yeah I pretty much have that problem in all relations and not ones with racial aspects. I dunno, I really have to figure this out for myself I suppose, but thanks for sharing your views with me.

Wow, whatever - your life story could be mine.

Except for the whole 'getting a job and not being discriminated for my ethnicity' part.

But I really, truly identify, man.

WTF, Friday, 11 November 2005 21:48 (fourteen years ago) link

Coke-o-racist?

acb (acb), Friday, 11 November 2005 22:06 (fourteen years ago) link

has anyone besides me actually been to one of the kill whitie parties?

phil-two (phil-two), Friday, 11 November 2005 22:39 (fourteen years ago) link

They wouldn't let me in.

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 11 November 2005 22:46 (fourteen years ago) link

has anyone besides me actually been to one of the kill whitie parties?
-- phil-two (philtw...), November 11th, 2005. (phil-two)

was it like how it's described in the article?

M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 11 November 2005 22:48 (fourteen years ago) link

i mean whatever, its a party where people are drinking and dancing to hiphop.. in like williamsburg. how is this different than some corny club on west 27th street where everyone is white, and drinking and dancing to hiphop? well ok, the name, but the only people who took that seriously was the washington post. the quotes in the article are pretty stupid, but i mean, the kids were probabably really drunk.

its kinda like that ny times article a few years ago about the trucker hat, where the nytimes lady interviewed some drunk hipster at the pussycat lounge and he told her that there's a code to the trucker hat. if you wear it cocked to the left, youre from the east village. to the right, williamsburg. up and left, means youre a gay man from chelsea. down and right means west village, etc. then they printed that in the ny times sunday style section and we all had an enormous laugh.

anyways, the party is pretty fun. jeremy (mr. pumpsta) is kinda insane though.

phil-two (phil-two), Friday, 11 November 2005 23:14 (fourteen years ago) link

They wouldn't let me in.

youre joking, right?

phil-two (phil-two), Friday, 11 November 2005 23:16 (fourteen years ago) link

So the stuff about the buckets of fried chicken and privileged white kids acting out stereotypes of black people as violent, sex-crazed animals was just bullshit that someone fed the reporter?

acb (acb), Friday, 11 November 2005 23:31 (fourteen years ago) link

how the fuck is dancing to hiphop = acting out stereotypes of black people as violent sex-crazed animals?

and why is this getting more attention when you can go to ANY club in america and you'll find white people grinding or doing the toosie roll or whatever?

there honestly isn't anything different about this party than most any other party ive ever been to.

i never saw a bucket of fried chicken either.

also, i do not have a trust fund.

phil-two (phil-two), Friday, 11 November 2005 23:48 (fourteen years ago) link

Oh so this isn't problematic at all? phew.

deej.. (deej..), Saturday, 12 November 2005 00:06 (fourteen years ago) link

i wonder what buckethead thinks about this.

phil-two, i kinda maybe believe you that this wasn't as bad as portrayed in the article, but i dunno there's some problematic stuff going on there that's not just our imaginations, i'd bet.

M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Saturday, 12 November 2005 00:08 (fourteen years ago) link

i mean if the reporter's usual beat was nightlife/culture/style or something like that, then maybe - but her other articles were about the NJ governorship race, counter terrorism, tom delay, etc.

phil-two (phil-two), Saturday, 12 November 2005 00:59 (fourteen years ago) link

its kinda like that ny times article a few years ago about the trucker hat, where the nytimes lady interviewed some drunk hipster at the pussycat lounge and he told her that there's a code to the trucker hat. if you wear it cocked to the left, youre from the east village. to the right, williamsburg. up and left, means youre a gay man from chelsea. down and right means west village, etc. then they printed that in the ny times sunday style section and we all had an enormous laugh.

or like that time in the 1990's when NYT ask sub pop employees about grungespeak.

maria tessa sciarrino (theoreticalgirl), Saturday, 12 November 2005 01:18 (fourteen years ago) link

hahaha yeah! "cob-nobbler"

latebloomer (latebloomer), Saturday, 12 November 2005 02:59 (fourteen years ago) link

Oh dude I hope nobody imagines these parties are like actual racist hotbeds, or something -- they're just parties with a problematic and annoying theme. Nobody actually thinks these kids have issues, right? They're just problematically indifferent to the theme of a party they like being kinda fucked.

nabombo, Saturday, 12 November 2005 04:11 (fourteen years ago) link

Though doesn't the very fact that the kids are getting into the parties and remaining indifferent to their being problematic prove that the casual racism and race/class privilege go so deep that they are unaware of them whilst being profoundly affected by them in their everyday interactions and assumptions?

Racism isn't just the province of Klansmen and white-supremacists.

acb (acb), Saturday, 12 November 2005 11:27 (fourteen years ago) link

actually phil, i was really wondering if there was any integration at these parties at all, and if you thought it would be more awkward than usual if any group of five black folks from any particular social/class demographic at all just wandered in?

also, i had a party that was ironically ny-hipster circa 2002. nobody else got it tho and they all asked me to change out the electroclash for other music. :-(

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Saturday, 12 November 2005 13:31 (fourteen years ago) link

So if a hipster in 2005 wears a trucker hat, are they referring ironically to (a) working-class/white-trash culture, or (b) trendies who started wearing trucker hats unironically as a fashion statement in 2003 or so?

acb (acb), Saturday, 12 November 2005 17:57 (fourteen years ago) link

depends on which borough he's from.

amon (eman), Saturday, 12 November 2005 18:01 (fourteen years ago) link

actually phil, i was really wondering if there was any integration at these parties at all, and if you thought it would be more awkward than usual if any group of five black folks from any particular social/class demographic at all just wandered in?

probably not any more or less awkward than any other party where most people are white, and a group of five black folks from any particular social/class demographic just wandered in.

phil-two (phil-two), Saturday, 12 November 2005 18:48 (fourteen years ago) link

I just wanna say that unlearning racism (and other isms, for that matter) is a life long process. As a white guy I recognize that I'll always have work to do and new things to learn. And it's a lot more about listening to people that you can learn from than trying to defend your current point of view. White people who say "I'm not racist" annoy me for this reason - it's like saying "I know everything and don't need to know any more".

Also, it isn't non-white's job to teach us about this stuff, just like it isn't women's job to teach men about sexism. Asking people to "teach" or enlighten you is IMO putting them into the same "other with specialized knowledge" position that got us into this mess. Also note that this is different than just listening to what people have to say, or going out and reading, say a book on white privilege and asking folks for their take on what you've learned.

It's early for me and my brain is slow, but try some of Bell Hooks' stuff for starters. I hope I made a little sense, a lot of the white responses I've read here make me sad and frustrated.

sleeve (sleeve), Saturday, 12 November 2005 19:30 (fourteen years ago) link

99% of these responses, regardless of the race of the poster, makes me sad and frustrated. This discussion is missing the input of the type of black folks who are being caricatured at these functions.

kevin says relax (daddy warbuxx), Saturday, 12 November 2005 19:42 (fourteen years ago) link

Kevin while your point is 5% taken I think you're staring right past the whole point of this thread, which has largely revolved around precisely the way you're using the phrase "type of black folks" in your post.

nabiscothingy, Saturday, 12 November 2005 19:45 (fourteen years ago) link

As always, though, it's a pleasure to see how people's high-minded sadness and frustration over the idea of race can work as an excellent way to seem very sophisticated about the whole thing without ever having to actually muck in and deal with it.

nabiscothingy, Saturday, 12 November 2005 19:47 (fourteen years ago) link

it's a pleasure to see how people's high-minded sadness and frustration over the idea of race can work as an excellent way to seem very sophisticated about the whole thing without ever having to actually muck in and deal with it.

OTM, but since I usually only talk about crap on the Internet all day, that's basically how I deal with EVERYTHING, not just race. haha

M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Saturday, 12 November 2005 21:06 (fourteen years ago) link

so are you saying that there aren't various types of black people, cause from my experiences we all seem to vary individual to individual, city to city, and state to state, etc. I don't identify with the kind of modern day Sambo that these parties seem to be emulating, so it's more than easy for me to bring up the fact that yes, black people don't all share the same brain and there are variations just like in all other racial groups for that matter. I hope that you totally misunderstood what I said earlier cause it would be a shame if you don't want to acknowledge that there are variations within black culture. That's just crazy.

I don't choose to 'muck in and deal with it' because arguing on ILM is futile to me. Not because I'm trying to put myself above the whole arguement, but because often you guys' opinions are so far from my reality that it would be pointless to engage with you on this whole Cocoracist issue. I just cut out the middle man and agree that we disagree. It saves time and a helluva lot of frustration.

kevin says relax (daddy warbuxx), Saturday, 12 November 2005 21:32 (fourteen years ago) link

yr gonna get PWND.

M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Saturday, 12 November 2005 21:54 (fourteen years ago) link

one year passes...
...eventually

deej, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:13 (thirteen years ago) link

three weeks pass...
LOL thos are some hardcore hos

moonship journey to baja, Monday, 7 May 2007 21:20 (thirteen years ago) link

prob drugs, right?

babedad, Monday, 7 May 2007 21:22 (thirteen years ago) link

http://www.citypaper.com/sb/87365/topten_news.jpg

moonship journey to baja, Monday, 7 May 2007 21:22 (thirteen years ago) link

prob murder

moonship journey to baja, Monday, 7 May 2007 21:23 (thirteen years ago) link

Style

StanM, Monday, 7 May 2007 21:25 (thirteen years ago) link

border crossing gong rong

sexyDancer, Monday, 7 May 2007 21:27 (thirteen years ago) link

At least they probably won't whine about it and blame their publicist, like a certain spoiled wannabe pop star...

o. nate, Monday, 7 May 2007 21:28 (thirteen years ago) link

RIP

Dom Passantino, Monday, 7 May 2007 21:29 (thirteen years ago) link

COCAINE AND CHICKS WITH MUSTACHES

god they're terrible. fucking TERRIBLE.

GOTT PUNCH II HAWKWINDZ, Monday, 7 May 2007 21:36 (thirteen years ago) link

The Myspace msg definitely implies the sisters are at large and it's their band who are in jail...

Jon Lewis, Monday, 7 May 2007 22:33 (thirteen years ago) link

well someone rectify that then!

lex pretend, Monday, 7 May 2007 22:36 (thirteen years ago) link

The Myspace msg definitely implies the sisters are at large, armed and dangerous

moonship journey to baja, Monday, 7 May 2007 22:46 (thirteen years ago) link

My favorite group. It doesn't sound like they got arrested, just their band.

mercurialblonde, Monday, 7 May 2007 22:56 (thirteen years ago) link

Fashion Police?

danbunny, Monday, 7 May 2007 23:48 (thirteen years ago) link

Art and Magic

gabbneb, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 00:10 (thirteen years ago) link

The Myspace msg definitely implies the sisters are at large, armed and dangerous

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/2674/jsmic.gif

GOTT PUNCH II HAWKWINDZ, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 01:50 (thirteen years ago) link

"Um, some girls are here trying to pay for your bail in 'rainbows?'"

Whiney G. Weingarten, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 04:45 (thirteen years ago) link

CocoRosie was one of three shows I've ever walked out in the middle of.

Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 04:55 (thirteen years ago) link

one year passes...

characturing?

Kill Michael Whitey?

The People's Republic of Padgettstan (some dude), Tuesday, 30 December 2008 17:53 (eleven years ago) link

Take a number. Get in line.

they're half-Cherokee, aren't they?

just to respond to this, it seems like whenver a white person wants to claim some ethnicity, their grandmother or great grandmother was conveniently a Cherokee princess. So unless they have certificates issued by the BIA, or are tribal members, I'd ignore it.

akm, Tuesday, 30 December 2008 18:54 (eleven years ago) link

or course, they might and I could be wrong

akm, Tuesday, 30 December 2008 18:57 (eleven years ago) link

Have CocoRosie succeeded in becoming twin Sandra Bernhardts yet?

soyrizo headache (Mackro Mackro), Tuesday, 30 December 2008 19:01 (eleven years ago) link

/morbz

soyrizo headache (Mackro Mackro), Tuesday, 30 December 2008 19:01 (eleven years ago) link

What a painful thread. I hate needless provocation.

u s steel, Tuesday, 30 December 2008 19:20 (eleven years ago) link

ha

❤¯\㋡/¯❤ (ice cr?m), Tuesday, 30 December 2008 19:21 (eleven years ago) link

I have learned that I guess you shouldn't tell someone Coco Rosie is racist at a Halloween party because apparently you will make them cry very hard.

Abbott of the Trapezoid Monks (Abbott), Tuesday, 30 December 2008 20:27 (eleven years ago) link

i love nabisco on this thread! i want to make print outs and hand them to ppl

i like to fart and i am crazy (gbx), Tuesday, 30 December 2008 20:35 (eleven years ago) link

Seconded. Super grate nabiscos up above. Except when I lived in NY, 5th and Bedford really did give me the hives.

served by boot-face (contenderizer), Tuesday, 30 December 2008 21:14 (eleven years ago) link

With any luck, CocoRosie's album will tank as ethically-savvy music fans refuse to buy it and educate their friends; "Cool" record shops will refuse to stock or sell their records, and tell their customers why. After disappointing sales, their label will dump them and they'll be exiled as pariahs, with as much chance of selling records as Gary Glitter. Then anybody else who thinks it's "cool" to be ironically racist will have the burnt-out wreckage of CocoRosie's career and credibility to behold as proof otherwise.

Alternatively, they'll take the hint, become even more hipsterishly abrasive and sell lots of records to the skull-attired coke-snorting nihilists who think that giving a fuck about issues is gay.

― acb (acb), Friday, November 11, 2005 8:54 PM (3 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

da cryypiä (DJ Mencap), Tuesday, 30 December 2008 22:02 (eleven years ago) link

Heady times, man

da cryypiä (DJ Mencap), Tuesday, 30 December 2008 22:02 (eleven years ago) link

one year passes...

Grey Oceans by CocoRosie shows us a sliver of a secret ocean of high waves we wish to be part of in our dreams. CocoRosie is the shower we need now in the musical desert. - Yoko Ono

They seemed to deal with race as just that, an issue. not like fake Ivy League Afropop ri- off assholes who are, as their wealthy grandparents before them, plundering race without any consideration for the implications. Coco race dives into race in a way that — as I said — scares me. Scares me because it is so insane and so bold and it is also respectful and feels true. - Jamie Stewart, Xiu Xiu

etc.

http://stereogum.com/414512/op-ed-an-artists-dialogue-on-cocorosies-grey-oceans/franchises/op-ed/#

Becky Facelift, Monday, 21 June 2010 16:01 (ten years ago) link

yoko ono's n-bomb >>>>>>> cocorosie's

like a musical album. made by a band. (fucking in the streets), Monday, 21 June 2010 16:07 (ten years ago) link

I'm not gonna trust the judgment of the dude photographed sucking on a horse's dick on anything, tbh.

HI DERE, Monday, 21 June 2010 16:09 (ten years ago) link

^^^

Johnny Fever, Monday, 21 June 2010 16:11 (ten years ago) link

i just listened to cocorosie for the first time, just the first couple things that came up on youtube. i thought this was supposed to be some kind of fake rap outfit?

kenny logins (goole), Monday, 21 June 2010 16:13 (ten years ago) link

I'm not gonna trust the judgment of anyone that speaks favourably of cocorosie

Tonight I Dine on Turtle Soup (EDB), Monday, 21 June 2010 16:38 (ten years ago) link

^^^ also

Johnny Fever, Monday, 21 June 2010 16:38 (ten years ago) link

after listening to another 10 songs or so, i have to say i'm a little surprised this band has taken up anyone's attention much at all

kenny logins (goole), Monday, 21 June 2010 16:44 (ten years ago) link

you're forgetting that the inferior Dirty Projectors took up even more attention last year

mdskltr (blueski), Monday, 21 June 2010 16:45 (ten years ago) link

I only know one Dirty Projectors song, and based on that song I find it categorically impossible to believe that there exists a person who would like CocoRosie more

HI DERE, Monday, 21 June 2010 16:46 (ten years ago) link

which song HI DERE?

dont forget B.Manning's shout-out to Dock Ellis (Drugs A. Money), Monday, 21 June 2010 16:51 (ten years ago) link

"Stillness Is The Move"

HI DERE, Monday, 21 June 2010 16:51 (ten years ago) link

(waiting for jjjusten to show up and go "actually I have the entirety of CocoRosie's discography, they are wonderful")

HI DERE, Monday, 21 June 2010 16:52 (ten years ago) link

is it really just the idea of it that's supposed to be so compelling? old-timey singing over old-timey samply type music, that's... it?

because i can definitely see that being something potent, whether there's racially creepy content thrown in or not. but it isn't, there's hardly one good musical idea at work here and every song i've heard is that same idea.

kenny logins (goole), Monday, 21 June 2010 16:52 (ten years ago) link

as they were described itt lo these many years ago, the sound i imagined was basically like what sleigh bells turned out like, or lol tonetta

kenny logins (goole), Monday, 21 June 2010 16:54 (ten years ago) link

ugh Jamie Stewart please never talk, I actually like some of yr records

Simon H., Monday, 21 June 2010 17:02 (ten years ago) link

I'm not gonna trust the judgment of the dude photographed sucking on a horse's dick on anything, tbh.

― HI DERE, Monday, June 21, 2010 12:09 PM (54 minutes ago) Bookmark

I almost don't want to ask...

dont forget B.Manning's shout-out to Dock Ellis (Drugs A. Money), Monday, 21 June 2010 17:04 (ten years ago) link

Ten In The Swear Jar is still better than any Xiu Xiu record. He should've never broken up that band. xp

Johnny Fever, Monday, 21 June 2010 17:04 (ten years ago) link

I almost don't want to ask...

Xiu Xiu fans: Evaluate this (profoundly NWS) picture of Jamie Stewart.

HI DERE, Monday, 21 June 2010 17:13 (ten years ago) link

Good Friday is a CocoRosie song worth having.

Xiu Xiu guy sounds like a prick.

Haunted Clocks For Sale (Dorianlynskey), Monday, 21 June 2010 17:20 (ten years ago) link

Very glad to read Brandon and the contributors of that article going to bat for CocoRosie
I like Jamie's contribution
Antony's thing is OTM although he didn't have to point all his fingers all at once

The Bartered Bride (Ówen P.), Monday, 21 June 2010 17:42 (ten years ago) link

"I have concluded that the reception of CocoRosie in the US reflects the denial of a greater feminist issue, an ecological issue, a racial issue, a spiritual issue."

Yeah, that must be it.

Haunted Clocks For Sale (Dorianlynskey), Monday, 21 June 2010 17:51 (ten years ago) link

Haha, remember when every ILM thread was like the above?

admrl, Monday, 21 June 2010 17:56 (ten years ago) link

xp I feel the same way, tho.
That statement isn't talking about "I don't like CocoRosie"
but rather the way that that band gets taken down so often and with so much vitriol

I think the running thread with all the contributors of the Stereogum piece
is that it's easy for people to write off a couple of ostensibly privileged women
who do experiment, and do reveal so much of themselves
CocoRosie have put themselves in a vulnerable position
and the majority of music publications have turned it into bear-baiting
most of which is unenjoyable, unfunny pollution

I wouldn't go so far as to express that this is a result of "music journalism misogyny"
as is intimated

The Bartered Bride (Ówen P.), Monday, 21 June 2010 18:03 (ten years ago) link

never heard a note and judging by their photos/sleeves I don't think I want to

Thanks for stopping by.

The Bartered Bride (Ówen P.), Monday, 21 June 2010 18:06 (ten years ago) link

Anyway kudos to j0hn and Brandon for being a couple of straight guys who're willing to rep for some crazy bitches
Lightening the load off us faggots

The Bartered Bride (Ówen P.), Monday, 21 June 2010 18:07 (ten years ago) link

I wish I hadn't asked...

dont forget B.Manning's shout-out to Dock Ellis (Drugs A. Money), Monday, 21 June 2010 18:07 (ten years ago) link

I don't think bands get ripped apart just for being female/experimental/revealing. Look on Metacritic - the mainstream rock mags have all been fairly polite - "a step back in the right direction" (Q), "hard going, but one can only applaud their ambition" (Uncut). I don't see any bear-baiting going on.

Haunted Clocks For Sale (Dorianlynskey), Monday, 21 June 2010 18:11 (ten years ago) link

I thought bears were big fat hairy gay guys

Sorry, gays don't read Q or Uncut

but in seriousness I did notice that that with Grey Oceans people have replaced "pretentious" and "insufferable" with "over-ambitious"

The Bartered Bride (Ówen P.), Monday, 21 June 2010 18:24 (ten years ago) link

In all honesty, the only reason CocoRosie was ever on my radar in the first place was because of this thread, which was not going to paint them in a very positive light.

HI DERE, Monday, 21 June 2010 18:25 (ten years ago) link

xp re: bears, yes, and apparently in the 17th century people used to tie dogs to them and things

The Bartered Bride (Ówen P.), Monday, 21 June 2010 18:26 (ten years ago) link

what Q or uncut say about 'weirdo' or women artists (and who cares) is a whole other question apart from whether CR are any good or not

kenny logins (goole), Monday, 21 June 2010 18:30 (ten years ago) link

I was just using them as egs of titles who might be expected to recoil from Coco Rosie. I went on Metacritic looking for egs of the "vitriol" Owen P is talking about and came up empty.

Haunted Clocks For Sale (Dorianlynskey), Monday, 21 June 2010 18:32 (ten years ago) link

I would have thought Jamie Stewart was too old and experienced to make such juvenile comments (and I don't even think that really is him blowing that horse in that pic).

Becky Facelift, Monday, 21 June 2010 18:45 (ten years ago) link

Though I don't know why I would think old & experienced necessarily = thoughtful & smart

Becky Facelift, Monday, 21 June 2010 18:46 (ten years ago) link

My dislike of the CocoRosie sisters and their albums and their whole thing has nothing to do with me being male and hetero. It's all about my finely tuned bullshit detector, and those girls fucking stink like bullshit.

Johnny Fever, Monday, 21 June 2010 18:57 (ten years ago) link

But, you see, they have put themselves in a vulnerable position by stinking like bullshit.

Haunted Clocks For Sale (Dorianlynskey), Monday, 21 June 2010 19:03 (ten years ago) link

My dislike of the CocoRosie sisters and their albums and their whole thing has nothing to do with me being male and hetero. It's all about my finely tuned bullshit detector, and those girls fucking stink like bullshit.

This.

And that since their debut, little of their music has struck me as particularly... good.

sean gramophone, Monday, 21 June 2010 19:03 (ten years ago) link

Like, I get that people who like Grey Oceans are bummed that not everyone agrees. But to write essays explaining how it's because we're sexist buffoons is pretty fucking enraging. I wish these contributors did a better job describing the pleasures they find in the music. (Some do try to do this, but largely it isn't precise enough.)

Given that Cocorosie are a band that, to outside eyes, stink of scenesterism, the NY-loft-microcosm vibe of many of those Stereogum contributors also doesn't help. I'm surprised Sean Lennon didn't chime in.

sean gramophone, Monday, 21 June 2010 19:10 (ten years ago) link

Meanwhile, here are two Cocorosie songs I like a lot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A57DFvq8zcE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRQZMreM5Qs

sean gramophone, Monday, 21 June 2010 19:12 (ten years ago) link

Nobody is accusing anybody of being misogynist

The Bartered Bride (Ówen P.), Monday, 21 June 2010 19:26 (ten years ago) link

Listening to "Jesus Loves Me" for the first time was a deeply upsetting experience, particularly in the wake of the Kill Whitey thing.

HI DERE, Monday, 21 June 2010 19:27 (ten years ago) link

Anyway, this isn't really my fight. See you over in the Scout Niblett thread.

The Bartered Bride (Ówen P.), Monday, 21 June 2010 19:28 (ten years ago) link

not digging their aesthetic at all. broken old-timey folk with crappy loops/noise/digital effects = no thank you. sonic ugliness prevents me from caring about what any of their lyrics are actually about.

actively seeking out the one where they talk about how Jesus doesn't love their nigger friends or their nigger wives is a mistake, don't do it

HI DERE, Monday, 21 June 2010 19:31 (ten years ago) link

Nobody is accusing anybody of being misogynist

No?

as women Cocorosie are dismissed because their visual presentation frustrates many male writers’ abilities to sexualize them ... don’t be Aryan muscle-boys...

I do apologise for tarring all the writers with a single brush. Rereading, there are many for whom my criticisms don't apply at all. I was blinded by the other bullshit.

sean gramophone, Monday, 21 June 2010 19:31 (ten years ago) link

don't really get where racism angle figures into this either - re: the original article is it really so surprising some pretentious twee indie folkie girl would feel out of place/threatened/uncomfortable in yr average hip hop club...?

actively seeking out the one where they talk about how Jesus doesn't love their nigger friends or their nigger wives is a mistake, don't do it

hahaha um oh okay NOW I get it

actively seeking out the one where they talk about how Jesus doesn't love their nigger friends or their nigger wives is a mistake, don't do it

o_O daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaang

The Black Keys - white boys can still throw down (crüt), Monday, 21 June 2010 19:33 (ten years ago) link

aside from the shitty music and racism this makes me sad because I love yoko ono

The Black Keys - white boys can still throw down (crüt), Monday, 21 June 2010 19:34 (ten years ago) link

yeah i like a lot of the people giving approving quotes there! whaddyagonnado

kenny logins (goole), Monday, 21 June 2010 19:37 (ten years ago) link

this reminds me a little of the time I had to ignore the many awesome directors backing up Polanski (though obv the offenses are not in any way comparable)

Simon H., Monday, 21 June 2010 19:42 (ten years ago) link

lol nice caveat there

kenny logins (goole), Monday, 21 June 2010 19:42 (ten years ago) link

the full lyrics to that song:

Jesus loves me
But not my wife
Not my nigger friends
Or their nigger lives
But jesus loves me
Dat for sure
'Cause the bible tell me so

Read your bible good and well
Don't forget about that apple spell
Don't fall in the wishing well
Wishing for heaven and gettin' hell
Wash behind your ears don't smell
Cover them freckles don't ask don't tell
Kiss your papa but not too long
Hold his hand
Don't do no wrong

Jesus loves me
But not my wife
Not my nigger friends
Or their nigger lives
But jesus loves me
Dat for sure
'Cause the bible tell me so

Hush don't cry
Dry them tears
Time'll wash away all them years
Scar or a bruise
Pick and choose
When you're all grown up
You'll have the blues
Life'll give you that wedding ring
Fancy cars and diamond things
You best believe in Jesus' way
And never fall asleep forgetting to pray

Jesus loves me
But not my wife
Not my nigger friends
Or their nigger lives
But jesus loves me
Dat for sure
'Cause the bible tell me so

'Cause the bible tell me so

what it's supposed to be: A satirical take on the contradictory nature of religious values

why it fails: Because it uses the word "nigger" for no reason other than a hateful evocation of black people, yet uses much more restrained/sensitive verbiage to talk about issues surrounding the arbitrariness of some bible rules as well as the sexism and homophobia, it explicitly singles out black people for disdain and derision in a manner wholly out of keeping with the rest of the song, completely undercutting any meaningful message it's supposed to have with a very strong, palpable undercurrent of "btw if you are black, fuck off; we don't want you listening to our music".

This is the type of hamfisted, unthinking point-making you do when you are either a sheltered kid who has heard of racism but have never actually experienced it or a self-absorbed person who lacks the empathy necessary to translate your experience into terms that make the experience relatable rather than repellent and offensive to others who have gone through similar experiences. Had there been parity in language with references to "faggots" and "bitches", the point of view would have been better defined and the narrative less confused; as it stands, you have a song by some people who hate religion and black people but only realize that they hate religion.

HI DERE, Monday, 21 June 2010 19:45 (ten years ago) link

holy shit @ lyrics

call all destroyer, Monday, 21 June 2010 19:49 (ten years ago) link

just reading it (not listening to it) the use of "nigger" reads like a poor trolling attempt. Like ho-hum here's a song about that wacky Jesus, oh by the way, RACISM!

*yawn*

it seems to me like this: like a bunch of kids at a nice college who are so moved and disgusted by the history of racial violence in this country, and outraged that the rest of the student body doesn't really think about it, that they do up one of them in blackface and stage a mock lynching in the quad. and then they don't even get why everyone would be mad at them for pulling a stunt like that, and can barely explain why they did it.

now, set it to music (no beats tho)

kenny logins (goole), Monday, 21 June 2010 19:51 (ten years ago) link

(For similar examples, see also: The The - "The Violence of Truth" and Christian Death - "Romeo's Distress")

HI DERE, Monday, 21 June 2010 19:51 (ten years ago) link

I like their music a lot, generally (first two albums a lot less than the second two), am really bummed out by their "provocative" race stuff but I listen to a lot of heavy metal bands who hold noxious beliefs & express them (albeit in more heavily coded language) & have sorta been doing the disconnect-from-shit-that-offends-me dance with music all my life -- I'm a pretty easily offended guy, actually, but I mean...I listen to goregrind. I don't think goregrind is making any kind of critical commentary on the behavior it details. I think it's pretty offensive, if I really think about it, but I also enjoy it.

basically CR is a band I like but with some big reservations & I can 100% imagine myself hating them, if I didn't respond so heavily to the last two albums - if I were building a case for them, I'd say listen to "Rainbowarriors," "Raphael," "Werewolf," "Smokey Taboo," "Undertaker," and "The Moon Asked the Crow" -- but I wouldn't build a case for them, because the sounds they make & especially Bianca's vocal persona/delivery are either going to register with you or not.

xpost yeah ha basically the first time I had to go "hey, fuck you, band making music I like, what the fuck is wrong with your juvenile ass" was "Romeo's Distress"

I can't work out who's worse; CocoRosie, Two Gallants or Country Teasers :-(

Jamie_ATP, Monday, 21 June 2010 19:56 (ten years ago) link

While googling, the first song of theirs I encountered was "Rainbowarriors" and I was like "why are people objecting so heavily to these girls, this is kind of pretty if not entirely my thing"

Then I googled "cocorosie racism" and discovered "Jesus Loves Me" and really at this point I need to stop writing before I just lose it.

HI DERE, Monday, 21 June 2010 19:57 (ten years ago) link

aero i have a hard time believing you hated joanna newsom so much, if you like CR! it's like the same thing only the songs are a third as long and have a quarter as much going on

kenny logins (goole), Monday, 21 June 2010 19:57 (ten years ago) link

country teasers are pretty awesome

m@tt h (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 21 June 2010 19:57 (ten years ago) link

Just to get a sense of where I'm coming from, if ever I encounter Robert Smith doing some shit like "Jesus Loves Me", I will be throwing away and deleting a lot of music I've built up over the past 23 years.

HI DERE, Monday, 21 June 2010 19:58 (ten years ago) link

i can believe this thread has me digging up christian death youtubes

kenny logins (goole), Monday, 21 June 2010 19:59 (ten years ago) link

it's like the same thing only the songs are a third as long and have a quarter as much going on

yeah this is def of a piece with Newsom, no?

lol "can't", ah well the jig is up i guess

kenny logins (goole), Monday, 21 June 2010 20:00 (ten years ago) link

They "explained" Jesus Loves Me in this interview: http://www.splendidezine.com/features/cocorosie/

De que estas hablando? (Tannenbaum Schmidt), Monday, 21 June 2010 20:00 (ten years ago) link

i really want to listen to this band but i lent someone my headphones so they could do online training :(

call all destroyer, Monday, 21 June 2010 20:00 (ten years ago) link

These are some good analyses, HI DERE, free wings.

The Bartered Bride (Ówen P.), Monday, 21 June 2010 20:00 (ten years ago) link

Just to get a sense of where I'm coming from, if ever I encounter Robert Smith doing some shit like "Jesus Loves Me", I will be throwing away and deleting a lot of music I've built up over the past 23 years.

fortunately I don't think they'll get any worse than lol tolhurst in blackface

The Black Keys - white boys can still throw down (crüt), Monday, 21 June 2010 20:01 (ten years ago) link


aero i have a hard time believing you hated joanna newsom so much, if you like CR! it's like the same thing only the songs are a third as long and have a quarter as much going on

"a third as long and have a quarter as much going on" is a big plus in my book - I do not want to hear any singer-songwriter's 10-minute indulgence

I liked JN's first album a lot but nobody pays attention when I say that, I cannot be bothered with any super-long "song suites" or whatever, I attribute this to my godawful lawlessness

well a third as long i can get with, yeah

kenny logins (goole), Monday, 21 June 2010 20:04 (ten years ago) link

lol

Jamie_ATP, Monday, 21 June 2010 20:05 (ten years ago) link

argh, I'm trying to write something coherent about this elsewhere, but HI DERE is going to remain OTM about this, and I enjoy Jamie Stewart but his commentary on Cocorosie is absolutely moronic, on multiple levels

oɔsıqɐu (nabisco), Monday, 21 June 2010 20:05 (ten years ago) link

the beginning of that linked interview is hilarious

xp: about the only reason The Cure got away with Lol in blackface in that video with me is because I'm totally inconsistent and because the entire thing is incompetent from head to toe (also that's the video where they were calling Lol a cunt IIRC so it seemed like him being in blackface was more band inside cruelty than an overt statement on race)

HI DERE, Monday, 21 June 2010 20:06 (ten years ago) link

I borrowed a couple of you guys' posts for this: http://chainofknives.tumblr.com/ / http://chainofknives.tumblr.com/post/722859553/op-ed-an-artists-dialogue-on-cocorosies-grey-oceans

Johnny Fever, Monday, 21 June 2010 20:12 (ten years ago) link

Really? Well... "Jesus Loves Me", I don't know if you recognize it, but it's a children's song, and it's really popular. I don't know if it's really popular in Canada as well. Anyway, kids learn it really early, and it's really stripping down Christianity to its most basic, to a child's perspective. There's such a large population of African-Americans for whom Christianity is a huge thing, but Christianity still remains to be exclusive, and is very segregated, and it's very intricately connected to an old-fashioned mentality that's still very racist. To me, it's a huge contradiction with Christ's message.

*sigh*

this person is stupid

like if anything there's some really fundamental misreading of black culture/Xtianity going on there, among other things

yeah. it is sooooooooooooo not the Christian church's fault that Christian churches are largely segregated

The Black Keys - white boys can still throw down (crüt), Monday, 21 June 2010 20:22 (ten years ago) link

like if anything there's some really fundamental misreading of black culture/Xtianity going on there, among other things

not to mention a fundamental ignorance of history

HI DERE, Monday, 21 June 2010 20:24 (ten years ago) link

Really? Well... "Jesus Loves Me", I don't know if you recognize it, but it's a Cocorosie song, and it's really popular. I don't know if it's really popular in Canada as well. Anyway, kids learn it really early, and it's really stripping down Christianity to its most basic, to a child's perspective. There's such a large population of African-Americans for whom indie rock is a huge thing, but indie rock still remains to be exclusive, and is very segregated, and it's very intricately connected to an old-fashioned mentality that's still very racist. To me, it's a huge contradiction with Cocorosie's message.

The Black Keys - white boys can still throw down (crüt), Monday, 21 June 2010 20:25 (ten years ago) link

I like the country teasers but really can't listen to cocorosie

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Monday, 21 June 2010 20:25 (ten years ago) link

my favorite part of that is "it's really popular. I don't know if it's really popular in Canada as well."

The Black Keys - white boys can still throw down (crüt), Monday, 21 June 2010 20:26 (ten years ago) link

xpost re country teasers

i also don't really get why they were mentioned on this thread

m@tt h (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 21 June 2010 20:27 (ten years ago) link

I mean I understand why someone would mention them, but they are like leagues ahead in many ways

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Monday, 21 June 2010 20:29 (ten years ago) link

Splendid: Yeah. What was the statement behind "Jesus Loves Me"?

Bianca Casady: You really don't know? Or you just want to hear it out of my mouth?

you are being interviewed. for a publication. do you really expect their entire readership to already have an opinion on that song?

WEB SHERIFF (LOLK), Monday, 21 June 2010 20:30 (ten years ago) link

i want to hear it out of your eyes

tylerw, Monday, 21 June 2010 20:31 (ten years ago) link

btw if someone comes in this thread now talking about the male nurse I'm gonna get mad

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Monday, 21 June 2010 20:32 (ten years ago) link

is "the male nurse" the new legal name of genesis p-orridge?

The Black Keys - white boys can still throw down (crüt), Monday, 21 June 2010 20:33 (ten years ago) link

xpost re country teasers

i also don't really get why they were mentioned on this thread

Uh... really? Given the turn the conversation has taken, you don't understand why someone would mention a band who released an album like The Empire Strikes Back? (which I have not heard, but based on its description and blatant lyrical cribbing from The Wall seems at least to be a more coherent, thought out exercise in satire than "Jesus Loves Me")

HI DERE, Monday, 21 June 2010 20:41 (ten years ago) link

ah ok, never heard that one, not super familiar other than hearing them and being like "these guys are like the only decent fall rip off band"

m@tt h (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 21 June 2010 20:43 (ten years ago) link

yeah a bunch of their tracks have super racist lyrics, I'm sure there should be some quotes around the word racist or something but wtvr.

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Monday, 21 June 2010 20:47 (ten years ago) link

the country teasers ref was a joke really; sort of funny to imagine the people offended by the controversial parts of two gallants/coco rosie listening to them (although there's obviously a huge difference in the way they use racial issues)

Jamie_ATP, Monday, 21 June 2010 20:47 (ten years ago) link

I left my itunes at work open once and when I came back in the room this track was playing really loud

Pedal steel flourishes nail it squarely in a country tradition, but the lyrics are completely mad. Wallers cruises through every negative stereotype in the racist handbook, ending with a triumphant, “If I had my way/ I’d have all of you shot.”

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Monday, 21 June 2010 20:50 (ten years ago) link

lol :[

The Black Keys - white boys can still throw down (crüt), Monday, 21 June 2010 20:51 (ten years ago) link

oh man here are a couple of awesome lines from a Pitchfork review of Two Gallants:

I want to believe that Two Gallants had good intentions in covering this song. But intention is fleeting; if it ever becomes known to the public, it's quickly dispatched to the mists of time. Only the artifact remains. And this artifact scans to me as deeply insensitive and offensive. Spin.com brushed it off as an account of racism; occasional Pitchfork contributor Jonathan Zwickel hailed it as "nothing short of revelatory" in New Times. But what value is there in an account of racism from people who've never stared down its barrel? What could it possibly reveal? If these myopic responses reveal anything, it's that the topic is much easier to gloss over than to actually discuss. Such an inflammatory project needs a complex intellectual purpose to make it more than a cheap provocation. This rigor doesn't come through in the cover, and when a Drowned in Sound interviewer pressed Stephens on the topic of "Long Summer Day", he equivocated. "I don't think it comes as something strategic," he said, and the interviewer demurred, because he was "in no mood" to really broach the topic.

full review (SPOILER: 4.8): http://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/8262-what-the-toll-tells/

last paragraph is also killer

HI DERE, Monday, 21 June 2010 20:52 (ten years ago) link

lol @ staring down the barrel of racism

The Black Keys - white boys can still throw down (crüt), Monday, 21 June 2010 20:54 (ten years ago) link

not so lol when you've actually done so; it does feel kind of like being in the scope of an invisible sniper rifle 24/7

HI DERE, Monday, 21 June 2010 20:58 (ten years ago) link

i guess, i don't know, it always comes back for me to deciding who has the right to use certain words.

plax (ico), Monday, 21 June 2010 21:00 (ten years ago) link

tbh I've never had any idea what to think of the country teasers, I do like their music a lot tho

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Monday, 21 June 2010 21:02 (ten years ago) link

great opening line: Nostalgic indie bands treat history like a playground, and one need not convey an understanding of the monkey bars' provenance in order to swing on them.

The Black Keys - white boys can still throw down (crüt), Monday, 21 June 2010 21:04 (ten years ago) link

i guess, i don't know, it always comes back for me to deciding who has the right to use certain words.

For me, it's more a responsibility/consequences thing than anything else.

You can use whatever words you want however you want to use them; you should also be ready for whatever reaction will come back your way, intended or not, and make sure you can explain why you chose to communicate the way you did if someone takes your words in a manner you don't intend. In this case, CocoRosie recorded a song they wanted to be taken a particular way, but didn't use enough care in crafting their message to support their intent (IMO). Therefore, they are evoking an unintended reaction in me where I want them to die in a fire and their explanation, which is incoherent in its construction and very light on an understanding of the situation they wanted to criticize, does not assuage or mollify that reaction in me.

HI DERE, Monday, 21 June 2010 21:10 (ten years ago) link

careful, plax, about confusing rights with reactions. people have the right to use all sorts of words. other people have the right to figure they used them badly or stupidly.

ha, xpost

oɔsıqɐu (nabisco), Monday, 21 June 2010 21:13 (ten years ago) link

did we switch bodies today or something

HI DERE, Monday, 21 June 2010 21:15 (ten years ago) link

what if nabisco and Hi Dere switched bodies with the cocorosie sisters?

i don't know whether it's really popular in Canada as well (sarahel), Monday, 21 June 2010 21:16 (ten years ago) link

okay, but that doesnt happen with EVERY word, the same would go with like, I dunno faggot or something. A certain position in society gives you a right to use it in a way that will demand less justification for using it.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing btw, I think its good. I mean I think the partic. context I bring to the word faggot, is in a way a type of justification and I wouldnt feel comfortable with somebody who doesnt bring that automatic context using that word without establishing, implicitly or not, how and why they are using it, y'know?

plax (ico), Monday, 21 June 2010 21:19 (ten years ago) link

besides being a plot for a potentially horrible indie version of a Wayans-esque comedy

i don't know whether it's really popular in Canada as well (sarahel), Monday, 21 June 2010 21:19 (ten years ago) link

i dunno, i think those rights and those reactions are kind of bound up somehow

plax (ico), Monday, 21 June 2010 21:20 (ten years ago) link

I mean, this is kind of cheap, but I think it's telling:

In the States, we've had very few, but some occasions, where people have gotten confused by the message, and wonder if we were being offensive, and maybe if we were ourselves racist, which was really shocking. There was one gig we had where we weren't allowed to sing that song. ... It was shocking to us.

She is shocked -- SHOCKED, I tell you -- that if you use a racial slur a dozen or so times in a song, some people might wonder if you're being offensive and/or racist. That is the absolute LAST reaction they would ever have expected to come from repeated use of a racial slur. They were straight-up FLABBERGASTED that a venue might prefer them not to repeatedly deploy a racial slur in a performance. I mean, who would EVER think, while putting a racial slur in your song lyrics, that anyone would react that way? It is shocking.

^^ I say this not to be a snarky jerk, but like ... wow, if that outcome is honestly shocking to you, can we agree that you do not have nearly enough awareness of American race issues to address them in quite this way? Maybe that's just me.

oɔsıqɐu (nabisco), Monday, 21 June 2010 21:22 (ten years ago) link

I don't think we are disagreeing here plax, rather describing the same/similar phenomena in different ways.

I completely agree with you re: the context of slurs, which is the main reason why I think "Jesus Loves You" is a painful failure that actually upset me when I listened to it.

xp: lol nabisco, rest assured that it is not just you

HI DERE, Monday, 21 June 2010 21:24 (ten years ago) link

yeah that line is definitely "thou doth protest o'ermuch" material

altho it makes me wonder who physically stopped them from singing that song (a black security guard?)

xp

"where people have gotten confused by the message, and wonder if we were being offensive" = poorly crafted message

i don't know whether it's really popular in Canada as well (sarahel), Monday, 21 June 2010 21:24 (ten years ago) link

man indie bands who say how much better Europe "gets" them really annoy me, too

I have a whole rant about this but as usual must be plied with drink to unleash it

well i saw these guys play in belgium and they really did have a massive following and the atmosphere was insanely volatile btw. My ex was way into them at the time.

plax (ico), Monday, 21 June 2010 21:31 (ten years ago) link

CocoRosie - Big In Belgium (Aug 2011)

HI DERE, Monday, 21 June 2010 21:32 (ten years ago) link

the atmosphere was insanely volatile

again, what??? so hard to understand, given what i've just listened to. kudos if it was a cool experience tho!

kenny logins (goole), Monday, 21 June 2010 21:34 (ten years ago) link

yeah i know, im not even pretending to understand it but they did put on a really elaborate and atmospheric show, and they were having a real or staged fight i wasn't sure, and the crowd were like really involved in the drama of it, and shouting things out. It was actually really, uh, intense. I agree that you would never think that from hearing their records.

plax (ico), Monday, 21 June 2010 21:36 (ten years ago) link

(well, as J. Stewart's idiotic comment suggests, the line running from race stuff to reasons other artists might admire them is that it's all messy, volatile, difficult, weird, and intense. at least sometimes. it's natural that other musicians might admire that and a lot of listeners would be repelled by it.)

oɔsıqɐu (nabisco), Monday, 21 June 2010 21:42 (ten years ago) link

i don't own and haven't to my knowledge heard The Empire Strikes Back, but man i love the country teasers. that would suck if Waller is a racist. and tbh it sucks that even if he isn't, he's decided to play so fast and loose with his lyrics.

proof-texting my way into state legislature (will), Monday, 21 June 2010 21:44 (ten years ago) link

from what i've read i'd say he's not; he's just a huge and decidedly unprejudiced misanthrope.

Jamie_ATP, Monday, 21 June 2010 21:49 (ten years ago) link

generally the country teasers use of racist/sexist/prejudiced language seems to me to be half an attempt to provoke and half an attempt to examine how ridiculous those views are by examining them in a really up close and unforgiving way; and very often that means he speaks in character.

Jamie_ATP, Monday, 21 June 2010 21:50 (ten years ago) link

^^^ Not having heard the album, this is how all of the discourse surrounding it comes across, which is decidedly different than discourse around "Jesus Loves Me".

HI DERE, Monday, 21 June 2010 21:51 (ten years ago) link

yes; you have to deal with what they're saying head on rather than claiming 'oh i was shocked when someone was offended'.
not always comfortable, as intended, but usually interesting.

Jamie_ATP, Monday, 21 June 2010 21:54 (ten years ago) link

country teasers cover of short people is p crazy

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Monday, 21 June 2010 21:58 (ten years ago) link

generally the country teasers use of racist/sexist/prejudiced language seems to me to be half an attempt to provoke and half an attempt to examine how ridiculous those views are by examining them in a really up close and unforgiving way; and very often that means he speaks in character.

yeah, a lot of the over-the-top sexism in the lyrics i've read this way. he was very confrontational when i saw them live, but in a sort of superficial, shtick-y way. i would assume the same for his writing.

proof-texting my way into state legislature (will), Monday, 21 June 2010 21:59 (ten years ago) link

generally the country teasers use of racist/sexist/prejudiced language seems to me to be half an attempt to provoke and half an attempt to examine how ridiculous those views are by examining them in a really up close and unforgiving way;

in my opinion the people who were born with all the privileges in the power/class dynamics (white people; men) need to stop fancying that they have a right to "expose noxious views to light" or w/e via caricature: such a stance presumes more than you can probably actually deal with in your work -- Randy Newman is sui generis, manages to get his point across so smartly imo that it would be difficult to miss, but pretty much nobody else should really imagine that they're anywhere near his level

like I can cope with an honest goregrind band a lot better than I can stand some guy flexing a lot of misogynist garbage and trying to claim some degrees-of-remove theoretical ground -- shut up, person of privilege, it's not for you to say whether your use of the language that was used to marginalize an entire population is "really" hurtful or not

well i saw these guys play in belgium and they really did have a massive following

I was at a small festival in Angoulême in 2007 or so, and the front page article of the local newspaper on the Friday was pretty much "ZOMG! International superstars Muse and CocoRosie to play our small town!". There were loads of gorgeous French girls in CocoRosie t-shirts milling around. Crowd at both bands was mental, while crowd for Arcade Fire and LCD Soundsystem was quite a bit thinner (you could walk right up to the front row no problem). Animal Collective played on the small stage in front of about 100 people drinking wine around the same time CocoRosie were on the big stage. The guy from Klaxons broke his leg. Good times!

Veðrafjǫrðr heimamaður (ecuador_with_a_c), Monday, 21 June 2010 22:20 (ten years ago) link

CoCoRosie's having more appeal to European audiences than Animal Collective, LCD Soundsystem or Arcade Fire makes total sense. folk and avant-garde and fetishizing twee girls all run pretty deep in European culture and combined all those elements make for an easier sell.

also Europeans not gonna have the same kinda racial politics-related reactions obvy

well, and, not to open up a whole can of worms, but when you are an English-speaking band playing in Europe, you sometimes find that while some people do in fact listen to you for the lyrics, some of those same people think you're saying "fire in the storm" when you're actually saying "furniture store"

i'm a native english speaker and i regularly think bands are saying "furniture store" when they're saying "fire in the storm"

i don't know whether it's really popular in Canada as well (sarahel), Monday, 21 June 2010 23:06 (ten years ago) link

But intention is fleeting; if it ever becomes known to the public, it's quickly dispatched to the mists of time. Only the artifact remains.

As a general point, I really like this line from the P4K review.

Haunted Clocks For Sale (Dorianlynskey), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 09:28 (ten years ago) link

hi dere otm, eff these broads

LOS CATIOS (latebloomer), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 10:02 (ten years ago) link

weird to hear people defend the country teasers in the same breath that they begrudge cocorosie. the cocorosie song is much more compassionate and straightforward in its criticism of racism than wallers tends to be. and then there's this (from the 2 gallants review linked upthread, but relevant here):

In the same interview, Two Gallants repeatedly complain about critics not "getting them." But a persistent failure of interpretation usually signals an initial failure of expression. The critic's job isn't to explore what an artist was trying to do, but what they've actually done.

i strongly disagree that we should necessarily blame artists for poor communication when audiences or critics fail to understand them. artists aren't journalists - not exactly. their job is communication, but they can just as legitimately trade in confusion, ambiguity, and contradiction as clarity. and certain subjects are so difficult & loaded that explosive reactions and profound misinterpretations are all but guaranteed. i mean, i completely understand why people object to the "jesus loves me" song, but at the same time, i respect cocorosie's artistic intentions and execution. it's unpleasant & uncomfortable to listen to, and i don't think it quite works (i find it embarrassingly overstated and obvious), but i don't see anything fundamentally wrong with it. i'm not inclined to condemn them for a failed though basically noble experiment.

honestly, i think the objection is less that the song is unclear in its intentions than that people have a strongly visceral negative reaction to hearing privileged young white people say "nigger" repeatedly in the chorus of an otherwise pleasant-seeming pop tune. which is fine. i feel the same: it's jarring and even repulsive. it smacks of naive entitlement, makes me wonder why they decided to go that way, why they thought those sorts of shock tactics were necessary or justified, just what they hell they were thinking in general. but it also makes me think about the power of language and indoctrination, the relationship between the hopeful and the oppressive aspects of faith, and the way our confused and blurry childhood (mis)understandings of these things continue to echo around inside us despite the wisdom we accumulate with years. all of which i respect on an artistic level.

contenderizer, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 11:21 (ten years ago) link

yeah except i think your ending at the exact point where intention comes into the eqation i think. If somebody yells "faggot" at me in the street, its a more effective deployment of that word in me examining my relationship between language and power, because its gonna make me feel shitty and see how language is a tool of marginalisation etc. When some chick uses it in a song in order to make me cofront this same relationship its less effective because it works outside of this power dynamic, that is neither used as a fag-basher to put me down, or reclaimed by myself as somebody who can use it and therefore claim marginality as the source of authority in some way.

Also, existing outside of this power dynamic, there is no context and the power of the word itself is meaningless which either makes it pointless as a rhetoric device to me (I mean, who is learning anything from this) or I will naturally read the speaker into the dynamic and as priveliged white chicks, its a lot easier to see them as the oppressor. Obv, this is not the only way this can go down, but to avoid these traps I think there needs to be a more nuanced stating of positions and you can't just get pissed off that everybody knows you're being ironic for one thing, because "historically", you are the "bad guy" here.

plax (ico), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 11:45 (ten years ago) link

plax OTM

HI DERE, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 12:15 (ten years ago) link

i dunno that i'm prepared to grant great artistic legitimacy to the taunts of assholes in the street, but i get your point. still, i think that "jesus loves me" is being mischaracterized to some extent. it isn't primarily about the power dynamic between the oppressor and the oppressed (with and "i" and a "you" clearly placed on either side of that equation), but rather about how we all internalize the bigotries of our society -- as filtered through the relationship of folk blues to christianity and christianity to racism, done up in a ghastly sort of musical blackface. and that's a tough, strange thing to try to address in song, perhaps especially for a couple of middle-class white girls. i mean, i could see some objecting to the way the song constructs its "we all", either presuming a universality of white privileged us-ness, or pretending an entitled sort of color blindness. but i actually think it handles those issues reasonably well.

i'd agree that there isn't much to learn from it, but the same might be said of most art, confrontational or not. i don't think that a work of art really has to justify itself in that sense though. mostly i just want art to be intelligent, interesting and aesthetically coherent. i find cocorosie satisfying on those levels (well, for the duration of that first album anyway). if anything, i wish that "jesus loves me" were a bit more subtle, conflicted, genuinely confused about its statement, because i find its crude didacticism at least as off-putting as its insensitivity.

contenderizer, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 12:29 (ten years ago) link

i guess it just seems to me that the only people who are like "hey these are words, the needn't exert such power" are ppl who have no primary stake in the struggle of marginalisation, ie those that have never (and cannot) feel the ACTUAL effects, and conversely do not intend to wield them as weapons. The reason I brought up the asshole on the street is bc its an example of somebody actually owning and exerting the power that language maintains, I don't know that from an outside position you can just decide that you are going to negate that power whose effects you dont feel, and who are you to tell the people who have had to deal with it that it is meaningless, it seems really arrogant.

plax (ico), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 12:49 (ten years ago) link

I mean, there is such a massive plurality of contexts that racial/mysoginistic language exists in in the first place.

plax (ico), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 12:51 (ten years ago) link

As a kind of generalisation, I would have a strongly visceral negative reaction to hearing privileged young white people say "nigger" in pretty much any context, or in fact, any white person use the n-word in any context, beyond maybe reporting someone else using it* I read the lyrics of that cocorosie song and they seemed to me to be pretty idiotically using the shock value of the n-word to make a fairly dumb/obvious point. Also, in the interview their defence of it seemd a little disingenuous to say the least. I was glad i didn't like the msuic in the youtube clips I watched, it was really ordinary and lame. it would have been very dissapointing had they been awesome.

*as an aside, when i saw patti smith, she encored with a medley of "rock and roll nigger", and I kind of got the impression that some of the audience dug shouting it out, it made me feel a bit uncomfortable to hear i must admit.

some excellent points from Dan and plax, I thought.

dead flower :( (Pashmina), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 12:56 (ten years ago) link

i guess it just seems to me that the only people who are like "hey these are words, the needn't exert such power" are ppl who have no primary stake in the struggle of marginalisation, ie those that have never (and cannot) feel the ACTUAL effects, and conversely do not intend to wield them as weapons.

massively otm - when michael richards had his meltdown, remember that he tried to paddle back from the abyss by saying "so we have these WORDS" or something like that - but it's not for the dominant class to be suddenly distancing itself from how those words are used

I don't want to start a big fight about anything but I wish when people used the words "faggot" and "bitch" in their songs they would also get hated on for being assholes because it is hurtful and offensive for people to use those words, too, even if the privilege isn't as thrown-into-relief as it is in this case

I don't want to start a big fight about anything but I wish when people used the words "faggot" and "bitch" in their songs they would also get hated on for being assholes because it is hurtful and offensive for people to use those words, too, even if the privilege isn't as thrown-into-relief as it is in this case

they don't? i mean, i agree with you, i didn't know most people didn't.

HOME OF CHALLENGE PISSING (stevie), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 13:16 (ten years ago) link

rap music

proof-texting my way into state legislature (will), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 13:17 (ten years ago) link

Just for the record, I think the Casady sisters are white, Native American, and Syrian. (I imagine they scan to people, day to day, as just "white," but would not think of themselves that way.) I'm not sure we have any information about whether or not they are "middle-class."

I understand that art can be used to play out ideas in messy, volatile, and risky ways. But you can't just cordon that off as an anything-goes sandbox -- that is exactly what makes it "risky." If you choose to messily play out ideas that are not just "ideas" to other people, and get them wrong, you will have a problem. A lot of the people contributing to that Stereogum piece want to praise Cocorosie for taking risks and yet excuse them from the consequences of those risks (e.g., some people will find your voices annoying!).

oɔsıqɐu (nabisco), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 13:23 (ten years ago) link

rap music

because no rock 'n roll person has ever used the word "bitch" in a song or conversation

HI DERE, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 13:25 (ten years ago) link

^^^ just want to point out that when I whine about this stuff I do not mean 'rap music'

because no rock 'n roll person has ever used the word "bitch" in a song or conversation

yeah, I meant to follow that up with a clarification and I got pelted w/ work emails. I personally find that for some reason I turn a blind eye to a lot offensive content in hip hop I probably not tolerate in other genres ..? not sure why that is. so it's not so much an indictment of rap as it is of my weird double standards. or something.

proof-texting my way into state legislature (will), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 13:32 (ten years ago) link

e.g. i was listening Back For the First Time and (especially) Project Pat's Mista Don't Play this weekend for the first time in a looong time while my gf (who is a hueg nerd and basically only listens to NPR and Paul Simon) and I were cooking and I have to tell you, it was weirdly embarrassing. i mean, she's a grown up and can handle it/ whatever, but it certainly sparked some conflicting feelings that a 22 year old me probably would not have experienced. but maybe this is for another thread.

proof-texting my way into state legislature (will), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 13:44 (ten years ago) link

"what you want your girlfriend and her sister listening to/can you escape bad/questionable language in modern pop?"

proof-texting my way into state legislature (will), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 13:53 (ten years ago) link

Wives or servants, surely?

emil.y, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 13:54 (ten years ago) link

yeah lots of otm responses...I don't necessarily think that CR are racist, or that they had anything less than the best intentions, but as HI DERE pointed out, the n-word sticks out like a sore thumb...it feels very exploitative; it sounds like the girls basically decided to borrow the horror and hatefulness of the word to make their song, and the underlying point behind it, sound more urgent and meaningful than it really was. Which is really shit.

dont forget B.Manning's shout-out to Dock Ellis (Drugs A. Money), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 14:54 (ten years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5lMxWWK218

Beach Pomade (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 14:58 (ten years ago) link

^^^great song btw

I don't think that Lennon is being exploitative, or at least as exploitative as CocoRosie is being. The hatred he is evoking by using that word is being used towards a very real end; he's saying "If you think it's bad for a black person in America, that's how it is for women everywhere." I mean, I don't think you can say that Lennon is dropping the N-word to make his point seem more urgent and meaningful than it really is.

Whereas, with CocoRosie, they use the word right off the bat to paint Christianity as this malevolent force in American society, but when it comes to develop this theme, it's like "Christianity is bad bcz now we can't kiss our fathers very long...?" They use racism to prop up their song and pretend to be ironic with it, but really it's just treating something very serious as if it was something very frivolous.

dont forget B.Manning's shout-out to Dock Ellis (Drugs A. Money), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 18:05 (ten years ago) link

you know actually:

seriously, black people don't need to hear me talking out of my ass about cocorosie!

― m@tt h (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, June 22, 2010 1:00 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

dont forget B.Manning's shout-out to Dock Ellis (Drugs A. Money), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 18:38 (ten years ago) link

That attitude bugs me for an entirely different set of reasons.

Basically, by saying it isn't your place to object to this shit (even though the objection you raise is similar, if not identical, to mine), you are implicitly saying it is MY RESPONSIBILITY to object to this shit; furthermore, you are saying that these objections are only credible when coming from black people, who by raising these objections often find themselves placed in the "you're just being sensitive" pile by the people who did the objectionable thing, and by not getting corroborating objections from others regardless of race, the seriousness/breadth of the objection is undercut.

Or, to put it more simply/confrontationally, it's fucking bullshit that people who feel the same way I do have this easy way of ducking out of the fight and not causing controversy, leaving me out to dry.

HI DERE, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 18:45 (ten years ago) link

i agree with a lot of what's being said here, but i'm still somewhat uncomfortable with the intensity of condemnation attached to cocorosie over this song. when compared to something like patti smith's rock n roll nigger (a song i love, btw), the use of the word in jesus loves me seems more careful and substantial - more well justified. pashmina talks about reading the lyrics of the song and finding them rather dumb/obvious, but the words alone don't get even half the message across. you have to hear the delivery and music to really get the whole picture. again, the song tries to link the blues to religiosity and religion to racism, washing it all down with a horrifying parody of "negro dialect". at the same time, it pretends this naive childishness about the horrors contained in the language it uses and the ideas it raises. in that sense, it's also about how children hear and learn things, how words like "nigger" can be inextricable from ideas like "blues music" or "salvation", both in adult society and through a child's eyes. on a more basic level, of course, it's an unsubtle attack on the racism that religion often disguises - that's the sense in which i'm bummed by the song's didacticism.

i disagree that it tries to pretend its language consists of "mere words", devoid of real power. perhaps CR have defended it in those terms somewhere, but if so, i missed it and am more concerned with the song itself, anyway. it seems to me that the song is fully cognizant of the horror evoked by its language, and is trying not merely to exploit certain words for their shock value, but to address something profoundly tragic and difficult. i've read pretty much the entire thread so far and strongly disagree with shakey mo's "this person is stupid" assessment of bianca's defense of the song. she doesn't sound brilliant to me, but nor does she sound terribly stupid. mostly she sounds as though she's speaking off the cuff to someone she's at least slightly uncomfortable with - there's an awkward hesitancy present throughout the interview, a quality of nearly paranoid reticence. moreover, the basic concept she's trying to get across (that the song is likewise trying to get across) strikes me as both valid and interesting.

finally, i get where hi dere is coming from with the "song by some people who hate religion and black people" criticism, but respectfully disagree. i can see as how CR's use of the word might strike some as insulting or hurtful, and might agree that the song is insensitive on that level. but imputing racist hate to the band on the basis of a single, perhaps thoughtless, lyrical experiment seems excessively and narrowly condemnatory. cocorosie are attempting to address something painful in this song, and they've chosen a painful way to go about it, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they were motivated by hate. by that measure, any artist who's ever built a song around the world "bitch" is a misogynist who deserves comparable condemnation. and many (many) songs built around the word "bitch" are far less compassionate and morally responsible in their examination of the issues involved. i mean, i can't claim to know what CR were thinking or feeling. perhaps they really are racists on some level or another. but i strongly reject the idea that we can assume that based on their use of the word "nigger" in this one song.

finally, nabisco otm about their whiteness and perceived middle-classness. i described them in those terms since that's they way they'd been framed in recent discussion (and cuz i drew certain conclusions based on other stuff i'd read about them). but it's unfair to pigeonhole them so neatly.

contenderizer, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 18:50 (ten years ago) link

but imputing racist hate to the band on the basis of a single, perhaps thoughtless, lyrical experiment seems excessively and narrowly condemnatory. cocorosie are attempting to address something painful in this song, and they've chosen a painful way to go about it, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they were motivated by hate.

they make some of my favorite music around but this song is not the only instance of them copping some bullshit "provocative" racial stuff (feel free to check "japan" off of ghosthorse & stillborn for "no, seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you people" stuff)

I'd like to point out that cutting out the "but only realize that they hate religion" from my quote removes 90% of the argument I'm making.

HI DERE, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 18:53 (ten years ago) link

eriously, black people don't need to hear me talking out of my ass about cocorosie!

― m@tt h (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, June 22, 2010 1:00 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

this was supposed to be a joke

m@tt h (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 18:54 (ten years ago) link

yeah I got that, but it got reappropriated in a seemingly earnest manner to shut down a line of thinking I strongly agree with and I was responding to that

HI DERE, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 18:56 (ten years ago) link

i have heard the song--it's awful

call all destroyer, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 18:57 (ten years ago) link

i don't think the song deepens the lyrics, at all

call all destroyer, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 18:58 (ten years ago) link

It most certainly doesn't; if anything, it makes the lyrics stick out even more.

Like, my main takeaway from it was "thanks for ruining a harmless church song"

HI DERE, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:01 (ten years ago) link

mostly i just want art to be intelligent, interesting and aesthetically coherent... if anything, i wish that "jesus loves me" were a bit more subtle, conflicted, genuinely confused about its statement, because i find its crude didacticism at least as off-putting as its insensitivity.

See, I'd say that the crude didacticism and the inconsistency in the lyrics w/r/t characterizations of minorities makes the song aesthetically incoherent. It seems like a number of us in this thread would have less of a problem with them and the song if it was more aesthetically coherent, with people citing country teasers as an example of something that is.

I was listening to that Patti Smith song recently, and I really did cringe when she used that word.

i don't know whether it's really popular in Canada as well (sarahel), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:10 (ten years ago) link

^^^ completely OTM re: "Jesus Loves Me" and aesthetic incoherency

HI DERE, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:12 (ten years ago) link

but when it comes to develop this theme, it's like "Christianity is bad bcz now we can't kiss our fathers very long...?" They use racism to prop up their song and pretend to be ironic with it, but really it's just treating something very serious as if it was something very frivolous.

― dont forget B.Manning's shout-out to Dock Ellis (Drugs A. Money), Tuesday, June 22, 2010 11:05 AM (44 minutes ago) Bookmark

i've said more than enough, but wanted to touch on this. it seems to me that the song presents a series of textbook lessons. "jesus loves me" is the first lesson - a gentle, almost crushingly saccharine affirmation of childlike faith. this is followed up by instructions like "wash behind your ears," "cover them freckles," "don't ask don't tell," and eventually "kiss your papa but not too long." so we move from that first gentle blessing into superficial body/dirt shame and then to deeper and more troubling sorts of sexual shame, all within the framework of childhood's simple life lessons. the song is reminiscent of little red riding hood, in terms of how it calls attention to the adult horrors hidden within the gentle, coded nudges we give our children. worth noting that "don't forget that apple spell" is one of the first lessons mentioned - important because the song consistently attempts to link an awful word to the oppression of women in manner that's very similar to lennon's woman is the nigger of the world (if a good deal more oblique).

i find it a very sad song, much more sad than shocking. the sadness arises from the tension between the protected innocence it describes, the idealized state of a child we wish to shield from the world, and the tragic adult realities that it admits, with its talk of choosing between scars or bruises on the road to the wedding rings that will supposedly make everything better for us when we grow up. i can't ultimately endorse or even condone it because i don't think it ultimately justifies its decision to hammer the n-word home over and over again at every chorus, but its conflation of racism and religion isn't as simpleminded as it might initially seem.

contenderizer, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:16 (ten years ago) link

it's a sloppily written poorly constructed lyric. There's nothing inherently racist in Christianity, Jesus didn't say anything preposterous on the level of "I hate niggers" and the song draws this line clumsily by just associating the one with the other in the crudest manner possible. It doesn't give any consideration to how black people and Christianity actually intersect, no nuance or actual understanding of history is evident. If I want to think about how racism and Christianity have been intertwined in America, there are any number of Ice Cube lines that are more informative and interesting than this garbage.

xp

"go to church but they tease us/with a picture of a blue eyed jesus"

The conflation of racism and religion is actually as simple-minded as it seems if you know one iota of American history.

HI DERE, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:22 (ten years ago) link

I prefer the Vaselines version of "Jesus Wants Me for a Sunbeam" to this song

i don't know whether it's really popular in Canada as well (sarahel), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:23 (ten years ago) link

sorry HI DERE I didn't mean to duck out...I was just getting second thoughts about whether I was actually contributing to the discussion rather than 1) parroting other people's opinions, or 2) spouting off about stuff that I don't have a lot of firsthand knowledge about.*

*This is probably just a euphemistic way of restating what it was that pissed you off.

dont forget B.Manning's shout-out to Dock Ellis (Drugs A. Money), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:26 (ten years ago) link

I'd like to point out that cutting out the "but only realize that they hate religion" from my quote removes 90% of the argument I'm making.

― HI DERE, Tuesday, June 22, 2010 11:53 AM (22 minutes ago) Bookmark

accept that i'm alone in even half-defending this song. but i meant no offense, hi dere, in cutting out the closing line of your argument about CR's racism. i understand that your point was that they are not aware of their own racism, but in responding, i wasn't primarily concerned with what we might assume about their self-awareness. i was simply talking about what we might fairly assume about their basic motives. frankly, i think it's less fair to assume that they're racist and blind to their own racism than simply to assume that they're racist. but unfair in either case.

i don't think the song deepens the lyrics, at all

― call all destroyer, Tuesday, June 22, 2010 11:58 AM (17 minutes ago) Bookmark

this makes no sense to me. without the music and the delivery, you lose the constant connection of the blues to religiosity, and you lose the weird, soul-sick minstrel show vibe. the sadness, the forced naïveté and the painfully fake black dialect are a huge part of the song's point - for better or worse.

contenderizer, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:27 (ten years ago) link

I suppose it's a question of which is unfairer, thinking someone is unintentionally racist (my take) or intentionally stupid (your take).

HI DERE, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:30 (ten years ago) link

Because every word you write in defense of them highlights more of their terrible artistic choices (the dialect, the fake blues styling, the minstrel show vibe) and the idea that anyone with even half a brain in modern America could look at this song as it was shaping up and think "Wow! This captures my point perfectly!" and then be shocked and amazed when people think you are a narcissistic racist, particularly when you also attend racist, ironic Kill Whitey parties, it is amazing that your brain functions well enough to keep your subconscious processes going.

HI DERE, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:34 (ten years ago) link

There's nothing inherently racist in Christianity, Jesus didn't say anything preposterous on the level of "I hate niggers" and the song draws this line clumsily by just associating the one with the other in the crudest manner possible. It doesn't give any consideration to how black people and Christianity actually intersect, no nuance or actual understanding of history is evident. If I want to think about how racism and Christianity have been intertwined in America, there are any number of Ice Cube lines that are more informative and interesting than this garbage.

xp

― in my day we had to walk 10 miles in the snow for VU bootleg (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, June 22, 2010 12:17 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark

agree in part. especially agree that the song "doesn't give any consideration to how black people and Christianity actually intersect, no nuance or actual understanding of history is evident." i'm not sure that it has to, as it seems to me that the song describes an outsider's view of that intersection, and moreover a deliberately childish version of an outsider's view. but i'd agree that this is the song's biggest weakness: it "daringly" goes somewhere very complicated and dangerous but doesn't equip itself with much real insight to justify its provocations.

that said, i think you could easily make the case that christianity has a complicated relationship with racism in america, and that the song's argument makes a certain amount of sense in light of that.

contenderizer, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:34 (ten years ago) link

"complicated relationship" in implied scare-quotes there...

contenderizer, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:36 (ten years ago) link

i'm generally in favor of artists taking risks, and ambiguity and messiness, and works that "problematize" issues - but there are certain subjects, and certain language that are extremely volatile and potent that require greater sensitivity and care taken with their use.

i don't know whether it's really popular in Canada as well (sarahel), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:37 (ten years ago) link

The conflation of racism and religion is actually as simple-minded as it seems if you know one iota of American history.

I really don't think this can be stressed enough - sure you can point out that white racists used Christianity to justify their way of life, and that they forced the religion onto the black slave population, but that's only a part of the picture, and is a ridiculously narrow view that ignores the role of Christianity in the abolitionist movement, or the way black slaves managed to take Christianity and subvert it to their own ends, using it to preserve other cultural and musical traditions, with it eventually becoming one of the pillars/driving forces behind the civil rights movement. there are a LOT of nuances. I don't think MLK would be too down with this "Jesus hates black people" nonsense. And taking the tack that because you put the words "Jesus" and "nigger" in the same song makes you some kind of incisive social provacateur just makes you look stupid.

xp

he song describes an outsider's view of that intersection, and moreover a deliberately childish version of an outsider's view.

who is this hypothetical "oustider"? someone who is neither white nor black nor Christian or American presumably...? that makes no sense.

is this the classic Native American/Syrian take on American racial relations and Xtianity, is that what you're getting at...? they're deliberately hiding behind a character? one that doesn't understand how provocative/inciteful the language being used is? wtf

yeah, that gets at the main problem with reception for an American audience - and might explain why they're better received in Belgium - here in America (with a few exceptions) no one is really an outsider with regards to this.

i don't know whether it's really popular in Canada as well (sarahel), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:43 (ten years ago) link

i'm generally in favor of artists taking risks, and ambiguity and messiness, and works that "problematize" issues - but there are certain subjects, and certain language that are extremely volatile and potent that require greater sensitivity and care taken with their use.

― i don't know whether it's really popular in Canada as well (sarahel), Tuesday, June 22, 2010 12:37 PM (52 seconds ago) Bookmark

yeah, i know. i want to defend CR cuz i like most of the record and respect the risks they took on "jesus loves me", but there's a horrible train-wreck quality to the final product. and i try to excuse the song by saying, "well, it HAD to be horrible, didn't it? to be less than wrenchingly awful would be dishonest." but i can't quite get myself to buy that. i won't condemn them, but i can't get behind this song. almost, but not quite.

contenderizer, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:46 (ten years ago) link

contenderizer - have you seen the movie "Farewell Uncle Tom"? (title might be Goodbye Uncle Tom) made by the Italians that did Mondo Cane?

i don't know whether it's really popular in Canada as well (sarahel), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:47 (ten years ago) link

David Allan Coe IS playing a character you ninnies

Fox Force Five Punchline (sexyDancer), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:48 (ten years ago) link

who is this hypothetical "oustider"? someone who is neither white nor black nor Christian or American presumably...? that makes no sense.

― in my day we had to walk 10 miles in the snow for VU bootleg (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, June 22, 2010 12:40 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark

i was unclear. it was suggested that CR were speaking in generalized, ignorant terms of the relationship of black american culture to christianity. my point was that the character in the song is not necessarily someone who knows much about that relationship, and thus can perhaps be forgiven for a lack of deep understanding. the character might, for instance, be a non-black child. thus an "outsider" to that issue, on a certain level. (i grant the larger "no one is an outsider" argument but i'm talking about simple awareness, not about the complexities of involvement.)

contenderizer, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:51 (ten years ago) link

i think you're making an admirable effort to try and unpack the motives and structure and ideas in the song, but for a number of us, it's cringeworthy enough to make us have no desire to go to that effort.

i don't know whether it's really popular in Canada as well (sarahel), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:54 (ten years ago) link

have you seen the movie "Farewell Uncle Tom"? (title might be Goodbye Uncle Tom) made by the Italians that did Mondo Cane?

― i don't know whether it's really popular in Canada as well (sarahel), Tuesday, June 22, 2010 12:47 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

no. based on what i've read about africa addio, i forswore the jacopetti/prosperi films. is farewell uncle tom worth a look?

contenderizer, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:57 (ten years ago) link

yeah i think this thread would be pretty awful if it was just everybody sagely agreeing abt what massive assholes CR are

plax (ico), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:59 (ten years ago) link

farewell uncle tom is probably the most uncomfortable movie watching experience i have ever had that was not a horror movie of the "torture porn" subgenre.

i don't know whether it's really popular in Canada as well (sarahel), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:59 (ten years ago) link

yeah, i've heard good and bad things said about it. it sounds uncomfortable and ill-advised. like the song?

contenderizer, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 20:06 (ten years ago) link

it's basically the problem people have with the song magnified 1000x - except the music is better than cocorosie's.

i don't know whether it's really popular in Canada as well (sarahel), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 20:10 (ten years ago) link

a ridiculously narrow view that ignores the role of Christianity in the abolitionist movement, or the way black slaves managed to take Christianity and subvert it to their own ends, using it to preserve other cultural and musical traditions, with it eventually becoming one of the pillars/driving forces behind the civil rights movement

This is very important to remember. It's something completely ignored by this song.

Beach Pomade (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 23 June 2010 03:38 (ten years ago) link

With their Native American background, perhaps they substituted a personally appropriate slur for something more sensationalist .

Beach Pomade (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 23 June 2010 03:48 (ten years ago) link

jamie stewart didn't really suck a horse's dick, sorry about that guys

A B C, Wednesday, 23 June 2010 04:44 (ten years ago) link

i've said more than enough, but wanted to touch on this. it seems to me that the song presents a series of textbook lessons. "jesus loves me" is the first lesson - a gentle, almost crushingly saccharine affirmation of childlike faith. this is followed up by instructions like "wash behind your ears," "cover them freckles," "don't ask don't tell," and eventually "kiss your papa but not too long."

indie kids seem pretty hung up on their early childhoods tbh

The Black Keys - white boys can still throw down (crüt), Wednesday, 23 June 2010 05:05 (ten years ago) link

just doin some quick ctrl-f's ... of course contenderizer is a cocofan/apologizer

its like why GROCERY BAG and not saddam? (deej), Wednesday, 23 June 2010 05:54 (ten years ago) link

on being f'd...

contenderizer, Wednesday, 23 June 2010 06:24 (ten years ago) link

why it fails: Because it uses the word "nigger" for no reason other than a hateful evocation of black people, yet uses much more restrained/sensitive verbiage to talk about issues surrounding the arbitrariness of some bible rules as well as the sexism and homophobia, it explicitly singles out black people for disdain and derision in a manner wholly out of keeping with the rest of the song, completely undercutting any meaningful message it's supposed to have with a very strong, palpable undercurrent of "btw if you are black, fuck off; we don't want you listening to our music".

...

Had there been parity in language with references to "faggots" and "bitches", the point of view would have been better defined and the narrative less confused; as it stands, you have a song by some people who hate religion and black people but only realize that they hate religion.

I don't think the inclusion of other slurs would've made it better or less offensive. What I don't like is making the infamous slur the artistic equivalent of a 'SHIT JUST GOT REAL' device, an inexpensive and effortless way to let people know you're a Serious Artist with Something to Say.

Cunga, Wednesday, 23 June 2010 07:19 (ten years ago) link

This is very important to remember. It's something completely ignored by this song.

― Beach Pomade (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, June 22, 2010 10:38 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

fwiw its perfectly fine to 'ignore' things like this -- theres nothing per se bad abt observing religious hypocrisy -- but this is such a lazy way to do it that u start siding 'with' religion

its like why GROCERY BAG and not saddam? (deej), Wednesday, 23 June 2010 08:24 (ten years ago) link

It's totally fine to ignore, even contradict established history if you know enough about it to make intelligent choices (or if you get lucky; I consider "sufficiently compelling wordplay" to be an intelligent choice).

I don't think the inclusion of other slurs would've made it better or less offensive. What I don't like is making the infamous slur the artistic equivalent of a 'SHIT JUST GOT REAL' device, an inexpensive and effortless way to let people know you're a Serious Artist with Something to Say.

I just wanted to point out that I did not say that adding in more slurs would make the song less offensive. I said it would make it more thematically coherent, which would allow the listener to get its point better. (Given the "explanation" for the song given in the incredibly lolsome interview linked upthread, I concede that adding in more slurs would actually divert the song completely away from what they were trying to say, but since what they were trying to say was a misconceived crock of shit in the first place I don't really think that's a bad idea.)

"holiday season u shrimps!" (HI DERE), Wednesday, 23 June 2010 12:33 (ten years ago) link

did they ever find out whether it was popular in Canada as well?

sarahel, Wednesday, 23 June 2010 19:30 (ten years ago) link

popular everywhere ppl dont get the big deal with a ronaldinho bottle opener basically

its like why GROCERY BAG and not saddam? (deej), Thursday, 24 June 2010 00:44 (ten years ago) link

eight months pass...

so a guy at work just heard cocorosie and now he's challenged me to find something he would hate more than cocorosie...but i can't do it!

it's driving me nuts, any ideas?

gr8080 sings the blues (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, 12 March 2011 00:41 (nine years ago) link

has he heard Joanna Newsom?

five gone cats from Boston (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Saturday, 12 March 2011 00:43 (nine years ago) link

if your friend hates cocorosie, i can bet she'd really hate Gabby La La

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcQOXCLB_6Q

Whiney On The Goon (Whiney G. Weingarten), Saturday, 12 March 2011 00:59 (nine years ago) link

probably won't like Diane Cluck much either

five gone cats from Boston (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Saturday, 12 March 2011 01:01 (nine years ago) link

Cool thanks for the ideas. Tried newsome which he didn't like but her sincerity sat better with him than coco rosie. Did not hate devandra as much as I suspected. He's mid twenties listens to only classic rock dislikes most new bands.

gr8080 sings the blues (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, 12 March 2011 16:47 (nine years ago) link

bROKENCYDE?

ancient, but very sexy (DJP), Saturday, 12 March 2011 19:58 (nine years ago) link

Xiu Xiu?

ancient, but very sexy (DJP), Saturday, 12 March 2011 19:59 (nine years ago) link

Insane Clown Posse?

really -- brokencyde vs. ICP

sarahel, Saturday, 12 March 2011 20:01 (nine years ago) link

Maher Shallal Hash Baz

Run Westy Run Megatorrent (MaresNest), Saturday, 12 March 2011 20:14 (nine years ago) link

Why to hate MSHB?

:(

emil.y, Saturday, 12 March 2011 20:15 (nine years ago) link

Oh I didn't say I didn't like them :)

Run Westy Run Megatorrent (MaresNest), Saturday, 12 March 2011 20:17 (nine years ago) link

nah i mean he's heard ICP obv from them just being funny and ridiculous....brokencyde he would probably really hate, that's a good one.

kimya might fit the bill, but i'm not sure if he'll hate it as much, i think cocorosie are hitting some sort of snobbish "cool" white hipster girls thing that bugs him more. like i said, he didn't really seem to hate newsome at all, really suprised me. i think he hates irony and shit.

gr8080 sings the blues (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, 12 March 2011 21:23 (nine years ago) link

Xiu Xiu is a good idea.

gr8080 sings the blues (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, 12 March 2011 21:24 (nine years ago) link

ten months pass...

so i just showed this guy the video for "bizness" by tune-yards...definitely the closest i've come to something he hated more than cocorosie

the 500 gats of bartholomew thuggins (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 26 January 2012 00:48 (eight years ago) link

This might be my favourite thread title after "yo is it true vordul got sonned by a wite kid after a aol beef??????"

DavidM, Thursday, 26 January 2012 01:48 (eight years ago) link

has the guy at yr work heard this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUz75nc_JRw

piscesx, Thursday, 26 January 2012 02:00 (eight years ago) link

Kill Whitey parties aren't still a thing are they?

Neanderthal, Thursday, 26 January 2012 02:01 (eight years ago) link

Was just musing that the Kill Whitey parities where when "hipster" moved from sixty years as a neutral term, to one of derision.

C'mon, how can you hate on this guy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8Swpw9yZ5w

bendy, Thursday, 26 January 2012 12:03 (eight years ago) link

four months pass...

Lets all gather at time square
And lets all say a prayer
To Walter Disney and Mike Tyson
At Madison Square Garden

And then the lights came on
In the middle of the night
What I should do with my life
How I should spend my time

I'll be a stock broker and get me a wife
Have the diamonds cut
Have the diamonds

And Jesus said there a girl's best friend
And hell they'll last forever
And Jesus said now take her hand
And raise this harlot's bastard sun

And then the lights....

And afterwards we'll all go to hell
When the money's all spent
When the money's all gone
There'll be a place for us in heaven's gate
Waiting for us on lay away

And then the lights....

And oh what a pity the world's not white
And oh what a shame I don't have blue eyes
God must have been a color blind
If I made the world it would be all white

what the hell is wrong with these people

WHEY AHR MAH DREGUNS? (DJP), Tuesday, 5 June 2012 18:42 (eight years ago) link

also I just read the lyrics to "Japan" u_u

WHEY AHR MAH DREGUNS? (DJP), Tuesday, 5 June 2012 18:54 (eight years ago) link

They're full of shit and try to hide it by being provocative and edgy. But, really, shit. Full of it.

Johnny Fever, Tuesday, 5 June 2012 18:58 (eight years ago) link

eh time was you could do some dumb blunt satire and not be an object of hatred and disgust for it. (they're not 'white' themselves, are they? part-native american at least?)

Merdeyeux, Tuesday, 5 June 2012 19:08 (eight years ago) link

First time I've ever heard being part native American invoked as a get out of asshole pass.

Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 5 June 2012 19:15 (eight years ago) link

lol

Johnny Fever, Tuesday, 5 June 2012 19:17 (eight years ago) link

im part part-native (south) american, this doesn't mean i can't be racist about black people.

zverotic discourse (jim in glasgow), Tuesday, 5 June 2012 19:17 (eight years ago) link

or that im not "white".

zverotic discourse (jim in glasgow), Tuesday, 5 June 2012 19:17 (eight years ago) link

I'm part dumb satirist

retro-shittified (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 5 June 2012 19:19 (eight years ago) link

the more oppressed your group has historically been, the more the public lets you slide for your horrible beliefs. kind of like how music fans give rappers a pass for being sexist, like all the time.

Poliopolice, Tuesday, 5 June 2012 19:19 (eight years ago) link

xp No, I get that it's a character song. That doesn't make it any less stoopid.

These girls have all the depth of a petri dish.

Johnny Fever, Tuesday, 5 June 2012 19:19 (eight years ago) link

hello Poliopolice

(is there a "threads I regret reviving" thread around somewhere)

WHEY AHR MAH DREGUNS? (DJP), Tuesday, 5 June 2012 19:22 (eight years ago) link

lol

heated debate over derpy hooves (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Tuesday, 5 June 2012 19:25 (eight years ago) link

the more oppressed your group has historically been, the more the public lets you slide for your horrible beliefs. kind of like how music fans give rappers a pass for being sexist, like all the time.

― Poliopolice, Tuesday, June 5, 2012 2:19 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4tgjzQ7q71r8j1jb.gif

goole, Tuesday, 5 June 2012 19:28 (eight years ago) link

I'm not saying that's the way it should be, but unfortunately, it's pretty hard to dispute that that's the way it often works. also, i understand that you might disagree, but the use of dismissive animated images is a fairly juvenile way to respond to an argument.

Poliopolice, Tuesday, 5 June 2012 19:33 (eight years ago) link

i wuz only being contrarian for kicks, save myself from working, don't blame me.

Merdeyeux, Tuesday, 5 June 2012 19:34 (eight years ago) link

just saying, i think you'll find a lot more people here willing to call Gene Simmons a sexist jerk than to call Jay-Z one.

Poliopolice, Tuesday, 5 June 2012 19:34 (eight years ago) link

I was looking for a "threads I regret reviving" thread (there must be one, right?) and rediscovered this so I'm in a much better mood now:

I Regret Eating My Placenta

WHEY AHR MAH DREGUNS? (DJP), Tuesday, 5 June 2012 19:35 (eight years ago) link

a lot more people here willing to call Gene Simmons a sexist jerk than to call Jay-Z one.

poll

retro-shittified (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 5 June 2012 19:37 (eight years ago) link

Jay-Z was much more respectful and less disgusting to Terry Gross than Gene Simmons was.

Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 5 June 2012 19:38 (eight years ago) link

(altho fwiw Jay-Z's apologized/issued mea culpas for past comments/behavior/material. Simmons has not, and never will)

retro-shittified (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 5 June 2012 19:38 (eight years ago) link

xp

retro-shittified (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 5 June 2012 19:38 (eight years ago) link

Is it buried in the code somewhere that we have to get a new Poliopolice every year or so>

heated debate over derpy hooves (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Tuesday, 5 June 2012 19:40 (eight years ago) link

fyi everybody "the use of dismissive animated images is a fairly juvenile way to respond to an argument" is too long for a dn :(

cissémanwhore (DJ Mencap), Tuesday, 5 June 2012 19:41 (eight years ago) link

fwiw, i think the the gif was deployed as more of "i'm so not even going to get into it iit" than as a "response"

heated debate over derpy hooves (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Tuesday, 5 June 2012 19:43 (eight years ago) link

itt

heated debate over derpy hooves (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Tuesday, 5 June 2012 19:43 (eight years ago) link

the use of dismissive animated images is a fairly juvenile way to respond to an argument.

http://gifs.imgdumpr.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/wait-what.gif

decrepit but free (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 5 June 2012 19:48 (eight years ago) link

songmeanings.net a little confused about who wrote the cocorosie tune these lyrics are from however

"Armageddon" as written by Prince Far I
Lyrics © EMI Music Publishing

decrepit but free (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 5 June 2012 19:51 (eight years ago) link

hey look, i have opinions. hey look, i'm not stating them.

spextor vs bextor (contenderizer), Tuesday, 5 June 2012 20:11 (eight years ago) link

each generation gets the randy newman it deserves

congratulations (n/a), Tuesday, 5 June 2012 21:24 (eight years ago) link

holy shit, lol

WHEY AHR MAH DREGUNS? (DJP), Tuesday, 5 June 2012 21:24 (eight years ago) link

fyi I <3 contenderizer but that fruit hung low

diamanda ram dass (Edward III), Tuesday, 5 June 2012 21:26 (eight years ago) link

no worries, lolled

spextor vs bextor (contenderizer), Tuesday, 5 June 2012 21:29 (eight years ago) link

and i do

spextor vs bextor (contenderizer), Tuesday, 5 June 2012 21:32 (eight years ago) link

just saying, i think you'll find a lot more people here willing to call Gene Simmons a sexist jerk than to call Jay-Z one.

― Poliopolice, Tuesday, June 5, 2012 3:34 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol

lol

lol

lol

(lol)

That's sexist.

Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 5 June 2012 21:50 (eight years ago) link

Oh, wait, I misread that as (o)(o).

Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 5 June 2012 21:51 (eight years ago) link

to be clear, what i meant to say was

lol

poliopolice has got it backwards

the use of dismissive animated images is not a fairly juvenile way to respond to an argument

it's actually a fair way to dismiss a totally juvenile argument

the late great, Tuesday, 5 June 2012 21:58 (eight years ago) link

I Regret Eating My Placenta

― WHEY AHR MAH DREGUNS? (DJP), Tuesday, June 5, 2012 12:35 PM Bookmark

I am so glad I never contributed to that thread past the OP.

The Reverend, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 05:50 (eight years ago) link

who is that bitch saying "oh ye" with the thumbs up

dylannn, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 09:06 (eight years ago) link

the pumpsta

dylannn, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 09:09 (eight years ago) link

hey dylann guess what "bitch" as substitute for "woman/girl" is gross whether you're super-edgy or not

decrepit but free (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Wednesday, 6 June 2012 13:36 (eight years ago) link

do we have a thread about "bitch"

crüt, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 13:42 (eight years ago) link

the word, not that unlistenable meredith brooks song

crüt, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 13:42 (eight years ago) link

I would rather talk about the Meredith Brooks song, seeing as this is ILM

WHEY AHR MAH DREGUNS? (DJP), Wednesday, 6 June 2012 13:43 (eight years ago) link

that sounds like I'm mad at crut or something, oops

that was not my intent, sorry

so anyway, Meredith Brooks: I never actually minded that song

WHEY AHR MAH DREGUNS? (DJP), Wednesday, 6 June 2012 13:44 (eight years ago) link

oh dude. dude.

goole, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 13:45 (eight years ago) link

so did they ever kill whitey, havent been reading the thread, thx

lag∞n, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 13:48 (eight years ago) link

yes

max, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 13:50 (eight years ago) link

do we have a thread about "bitch"

if we get one, can we ensure that most of the people posting to it aren't dudes?

@DJP man you are p. forgiving of that Gwen S./Alanis M./Meredith B. sort of alt.Ethyl.Merman style of singing, you have more receptive ears than me & I salute you

decrepit but free (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Wednesday, 6 June 2012 13:50 (eight years ago) link

i hadn't heard one way or another tbh

xp

goole, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 13:51 (eight years ago) link

if we get one, can we ensure that most of the people posting to it aren't dudes?

ans: no

goole, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 13:51 (eight years ago) link

max is wrong they found whitey in santa monica he's back in prison now

diamanda ram dass (Edward III), Wednesday, 6 June 2012 13:52 (eight years ago) link

starting dudes only bitch thread brb our voices will not be silenced

lag∞n, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 13:53 (eight years ago) link

omg "alt.Ethyl.Merman" I am stealing this and using it from here on out

WHEY AHR MAH DREGUNS? (DJP), Wednesday, 6 June 2012 13:53 (eight years ago) link

whitey died

max, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 13:54 (eight years ago) link

Damn, just read DJP's lyric posting. Sounds like some 7th grader writing bad poetry and trying to be really serious and really subversive with it.

Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 6 June 2012 14:07 (eight years ago) link

hey who killed whitey?
there should be a trial, yeah?
think its only fair

he bit me (it felt like a diss) (m bison), Wednesday, 6 June 2012 14:11 (eight years ago) link

omg "alt.Ethyl.Merman" I am stealing this and using it from here on out

I so totally grinned and went "DJP is gonna love this" as I was typing it

Sounds like some 7th grader writing bad poetry and trying to be really serious and really subversive with it.

^^^ this is basically exactly what's going on w/CR's racist stuff, tho sidenote I encourage all 7th graders to write a lot of poetry & take it really seriously & do all they can to annoy adults who frown on their efforts

decrepit but free (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Wednesday, 6 June 2012 14:11 (eight years ago) link

NEW RULE any white person who goes to a "kill whitey" party but does not commit suicide by the end of the evening is expelled from the white race, and must henceforth identify on all forms as 'other: poseur'

Despite all my cheek, I am still just a freak on a leash (bernard snowy), Wednesday, 6 June 2012 14:15 (eight years ago) link

How has nobody ever used "Whitey G. Whitegarden" as a dn yet?

Julie Derpy (Phil D.), Wednesday, 6 June 2012 14:17 (eight years ago) link

xp (I call it the "one dope" rule)

Despite all my cheek, I am still just a freak on a leash (bernard snowy), Wednesday, 6 June 2012 14:18 (eight years ago) link

How has nobody ever used "Whitey G. Whitegarden" as a dn yet?

key q here guys

decrepit but free (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Wednesday, 6 June 2012 14:20 (eight years ago) link

kill whiney

lag∞n, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 14:29 (eight years ago) link

gets called out by brainwashed.com as racist

^^^ this is the best part of the thread title

max, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 14:30 (eight years ago) link

hey dylann guess what "bitch" as substitute for "woman/girl" is gross whether you're super-edgy or not

― decrepit but free (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Wednesday, June 6, 2012 9:36 AM (52 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

wasn't he referring to the person in the gif edward iii posted who is clearly male?

shipl.de.al (some dude), Wednesday, 6 June 2012 14:32 (eight years ago) link

no, scroll up

Trip Maker, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 14:33 (eight years ago) link

oh nvm i was confused, cause jennifer lawrence is definitely saying "ok" so i assumed he was referring to the "yay" gif

shipl.de.al (some dude), Wednesday, 6 June 2012 14:35 (eight years ago) link

also following his post up with "the pumpsta," who is a guy

shipl.de.al (some dude), Wednesday, 6 June 2012 14:43 (eight years ago) link

it's like dylannn said, don't criticize what you can't understand, my pumpstas and bitches are beyond your command

diamanda ram dass (Edward III), Wednesday, 6 June 2012 17:05 (eight years ago) link

calling a dude a bitch isn't really any better

of family bonds and individual triumph. Narrated by Tim Allen, (zachlyon), Wednesday, 6 June 2012 18:12 (eight years ago) link

EIII wouldn't have it any other way

WHEY AHR MAH DREGUNS? (DJP), Wednesday, 6 June 2012 18:17 (eight years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8cHxydDb7o

diamanda ram dass (Edward III), Wednesday, 6 June 2012 18:20 (eight years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBAiZcNWecw

the late great, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 18:23 (eight years ago) link

latifah otm

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 21:41 (eight years ago) link

I think "Kill Whitey" parties are an awful, self-indulgent idea. But when someone has a mixed race parent I won't assume things about them.

I assume coco rosie are talentless race baiting shitheads

wack nerd zinging in the dead of night (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 7 June 2012 13:03 (eight years ago) link

I think "Kill Whitey" parties are an awful, self-indulgent idea. But when someone has a mixed race parent I won't assume things about them.

― โตเกียวเหมียวเหมียว akaBulgarian Tourist Chamber (Mount Cleaners), Thursday, June 7, 2012 7:52 AM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The ”one drop” rule of indie race politics

wack nerd zinging in the dead of night (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 7 June 2012 13:04 (eight years ago) link

I'm not indie, that's not my music background.

didn't remember making that post until i saw it referenced on excelsior thread. drunk.

apologies to jennifer lawrence, tha pumpsta and cocorosie.

dylannn, Tuesday, 12 June 2012 12:39 (eight years ago) link

lock thread!

Victory Chainsaw! (DJP), Tuesday, 12 June 2012 13:33 (eight years ago) link

two years pass...

press release for new Coco Rosie mentions song titles.

"Hairnet Paradise" and "Big and Black"

curmudgeon, Thursday, 11 June 2015 17:38 (five years ago) link

God, they're never going to stop are they?

Johnny Fever, Thursday, 11 June 2015 17:41 (five years ago) link

lol

DJP, Thursday, 11 June 2015 17:42 (five years ago) link

could you imagine how many internet articles there would be about this if this happened today

lil dork (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, 11 June 2015 19:32 (five years ago) link

57

Οὖτις, Thursday, 11 June 2015 19:34 (five years ago) link

could you imagine how many internet articles there would be about this if this happened today

lol

remarkable they've managed to stay together for a decade

Allen (etaeoe), Thursday, 11 June 2015 21:48 (five years ago) link

I just watched that entire Latifah video

I think the dude that grabs her butt is played by Vinny from Naughty By Nature

Never caught that before

Also as long as this is ostensibly a thread about appropriation and whatnot, remember when 90s rappers like QL would sometimes affect a Jamaican accent just for the hell of it?

Wimmels, Friday, 12 June 2015 01:20 (five years ago) link

It's very likely Latifah's family has Caribbean roots.

DJP, Friday, 12 June 2015 01:56 (five years ago) link

During this time KRS-One also gained acclaim as one of the first MCs to incorporate Jamaican style into hip-hop, using the Zung gu zung melody, originally made famous by Yellowman in Jamaican dance halls earlier in the decade.[3] While KRS-One used Zunguzung styles in a more powerful and controversial manner, especially in his song titled "Remix for P is Free", he can still be credited as one of the more influential figures to bridge the gap between Jamaican music and American Hip-Hop.

p interesting imo

Joan Crawford Loves Chachi, Friday, 12 June 2015 02:21 (five years ago) link

Um hip hop and dancehall and reggae have been intertwined since, say, Jamaican DJ Kool Herc started hip hop in the Bronx

kurt kobaïan (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 12 June 2015 04:07 (five years ago) link

Not to mention how much dancehall by the 90s was already influenced by American hip hop, it's a complex process of years of cross pollinization that's really unfair and simplistic to characterize as appropriation

kurt kobaïan (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 12 June 2015 04:11 (five years ago) link

Cross pollination is fine, fake patois probably isn't if you have no direct link to the Caribbean - though this is getting away from the entirely noble thread purpose of clowning CocoRosie.

Petite Lamela (ShariVari), Friday, 12 June 2015 07:18 (five years ago) link

that's really unfair and simplistic to characterize as appropriation

tbf he characterised it as "appropriation and whatnot"

appropriation and whatnot (stevie), Friday, 12 June 2015 09:02 (five years ago) link

Cross pollination is fine, fake patois probably isn't if you have no direct link to the Caribbean - though this is getting away from the entirely noble thread purpose of clowning CocoRosie.

so nobody can do accents anymore, b/c they are "appropriation," and that's always bad? i'm sure there's a smarter response to that kind of idiocy, but all i've got at the moment is "fuck you."

he quipped with heat (amateurist), Friday, 12 June 2015 09:12 (five years ago) link

sry for fighting humorlessness with humorlessness but sometimes a man's got to step up

he quipped with heat (amateurist), Friday, 12 June 2015 09:13 (five years ago) link

how badly do you really want to do jamaican patois?

appropriation and whatnot (stevie), Friday, 12 June 2015 09:13 (five years ago) link

/want/ to do? i'm doing it right now, bwoy.

he quipped with heat (amateurist), Friday, 12 June 2015 09:16 (five years ago) link

"Probably isn't fine" = "always bad"?

How exactly is what he said incorrect? That shit is often disrespectful.

tsrobodo, Friday, 12 June 2015 09:20 (five years ago) link

Adopting the persona of someone from a different culture whose lived experience is not yours is rarely a good look - particularly, as if often the case, that persona is a reductive 'weed and guns' one that reinforces stereotypes about people from the Caribbean. It is appropriation by definition though whether that is always bad is open to debate.

Petite Lamela (ShariVari), Friday, 12 June 2015 09:23 (five years ago) link

/want/ to do? i'm doing it right now, bwoy.

well, that is certainly doing it badly. sharivari otm.

appropriation and whatnot (stevie), Friday, 12 June 2015 09:24 (five years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4XD5MTMACg

♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Friday, 12 June 2015 10:03 (five years ago) link

persona is a reductive 'weed and guns' one that reinforces stereotypes about people from the Caribbean

this has it 'twisted' (am i doing it right??!)

j., Friday, 12 June 2015 13:47 (five years ago) link

this is getting away from the entirely noble thread purpose of clowning CocoRosie.

― Petite Lamela (ShariVari), Friday, June 12, 2015 7:18 AM (6 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Wimmels, Friday, 12 June 2015 13:51 (five years ago) link

Some weird ideas about hip hop itt

Οὖτις, Friday, 12 June 2015 14:04 (five years ago) link

I always thought KRS1 sounded like a dick on his faux Caribbean style chatting tracks. I can recall some member of London Posse saying as much in a 90's edition of HHC, he said something like "you come from London or The Yard and you can "chat", American rappers sound like wankers when they attempt it" or words to that effect.

xelab, Friday, 12 June 2015 14:24 (five years ago) link

i always thought he sounded cool. idk...

hongro strulkington (dog latin), Friday, 12 June 2015 14:25 (five years ago) link

Just Ice pulled it off better imo

xelab, Friday, 12 June 2015 14:27 (five years ago) link

persona is a reductive 'weed and guns' one that reinforces stereotypes about people from the Caribbean

this has it 'twisted' (am i doing it right??!)

idk, i don't listen to as much hip-hop as a lot of ilxors but the prism US pop culture, including but not limited to a fair amount of rap, sees the Caribbean has always struck me as #problematic. It's all too often a binary between tourist-key-chain-rasta-hat-weed-vibez positivity and mock-Yardie doggerel. Even where it isn't, to me, performing 'as a West Indian' rather than performing music influenced by the West Indies often has the effect of reducing a culture to a set of badly-imitated vocal tics.

I'm fairly relaxed about appropriation in general - it's often a healthy and good thing to borrow / imitate and music would be much less interesting without it. This has always annoyed me, though.

Petite Lamela (ShariVari), Friday, 12 June 2015 14:30 (five years ago) link

The 90s stuff I was thinking about, beyond the QL clip upthread, was Black Moon, who iirc had a lot of 'bloodclaat / botzi bwoy' type lyrics. Also didn't intend for this to become a "thing," was just reminiscing after watching that Latifah video.

BTW, is Latifah dissing Boss in that third verse? Sure sounds like it.

Wimmels, Friday, 12 June 2015 14:46 (five years ago) link

xp i think it's more about showing flashes of afrocentricity, from within the home (american) culture? and the binary (unity and violence, say) is present in that one too. so the salient thing about patois or whatever is not that it constitutes an attempt to appropriate or imitate (or give accurate representation), but that it momentarily decenters or translates a primary experience with which it shares something.

j., Friday, 12 June 2015 14:48 (five years ago) link

Also there were Jamaican communities within NYC and even artists like say Super Cat who moved to the US and collaborated with hip hop guys and I'm sure there was a lot of crossover in the club scene between hip hop and dancehall audiences, this isn't exactly like Mick and the Stones doing cod reggae

kurt kobaïan (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 12 June 2015 14:53 (five years ago) link

xp That can be true in some cases. Rastafarianism is a unifying movement and referring back to pan-African themes that are more heavily developed in the Caribbean than a lot of other places can be very positive. I don't see that being the primary motivating factor in a lot of cases and, even where it is, it requires a level of engagement beyond surface cliches to not simply reinforce those surface cliches for the primary audience.

Petite Lamela (ShariVari), Friday, 12 June 2015 15:02 (five years ago) link

shit dude i ain't over here studying up on haile selassie, i think it's pretty plain?

but i think this goes for the less harmonious cultural transfer too.

j., Friday, 12 June 2015 15:06 (five years ago) link

a licky boom boom down

example (crüt), Friday, 12 June 2015 15:07 (five years ago) link

all bets are off when canada

j., Friday, 12 June 2015 15:10 (five years ago) link

Toronto had a huge/significant Jamaican community and reggae scene fyi

Οὖτις, Friday, 12 June 2015 15:25 (five years ago) link

think it's weird to take rappers to task (esp 80s/90s rappers) for quoting dancehall/adopting patois when rap was all about quotations and repurposing cultural signifiers AND the links between rap culture and Jamaican music culture go so very, very deep - right back to the beginning - with huge overlaps in audience, technological approaches, politics etc.

Οὖτις, Friday, 12 June 2015 15:27 (five years ago) link

haha i know they do it's just… who can say what anything means in canada

j., Friday, 12 June 2015 15:29 (five years ago) link

the 70's was kind of the peak of bad faux-caribbean accents. you could easily make a 10-disc box set out of bad fake/cod reggae/calypso tunes by white artists. it was an unstoppable force and i'll never understand why nobody even gave it a second thought.

scott seward, Friday, 12 June 2015 15:34 (five years ago) link

and lyrically, the vast majority of them were just as offensive as the accents.

scott seward, Friday, 12 June 2015 15:35 (five years ago) link

that's not what's at issue tho

Οὖτις, Friday, 12 June 2015 15:39 (five years ago) link

maybe it's thanks to having grown up with parents who played lots of ub40 and the police, but i kinda like cod reggae. i love real reggae too of course, but there's something about bad white reggae i can't help sort of loving for quite different reasons.

hongro strulkington (dog latin), Friday, 12 June 2015 15:43 (five years ago) link

ace of base were nazis

goole, Friday, 12 June 2015 15:47 (five years ago) link

eager to propagate the aryan race iirc

Οὖτις, Friday, 12 June 2015 15:49 (five years ago) link

All that she wants
Is another baby
And to heil Hitler

I Am Curious (Dolezal) (DJP), Friday, 12 June 2015 16:32 (five years ago) link

tbf only one member of Ace of Base was a neo-Nazi.

The guy seemed genuinely mortified that he'd had any involvement with far-right politics afterwards.

Petite Lamela (ShariVari), Friday, 12 June 2015 16:42 (five years ago) link

das racist is one of the worst rap acts ever

Οὖτις, Friday, 12 June 2015 16:42 (five years ago) link

tbf only one member of Ace of Base was a neo-Nazi.

wait really???????????????

I Am Curious (Dolezal) (DJP), Friday, 12 June 2015 16:43 (five years ago) link

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulf_Ekberg

how's life, Friday, 12 June 2015 16:44 (five years ago) link

In 1998 some of his old songs were released on the compilation album Uffe was a Nazi!.

I Am Curious (Dolezal) (DJP), Friday, 12 June 2015 16:45 (five years ago) link

how did I never hear about this

I Am Curious (Dolezal) (DJP), Friday, 12 June 2015 16:45 (five years ago) link

ok wow

Οὖτις, Friday, 12 June 2015 16:45 (five years ago) link

maybe people knew how much you love them

goole, Friday, 12 June 2015 16:46 (five years ago) link

I am mentally singing "Uffe was a Nazi!" to the tune of "Mary Had a Baby"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPK29mexIi0

I Am Curious (Dolezal) (DJP), Friday, 12 June 2015 16:48 (five years ago) link

Learned about it from some Mountain Goats stage patter.

how's life, Friday, 12 June 2015 16:52 (five years ago) link

I thought this was one of those well-known facts!

put a skronk ornette (wins), Friday, 12 June 2015 16:52 (five years ago) link

tbf I've aggressively ignored any and all biographical information about Ace of Base and just bumped those original singles

I Am Curious (Dolezal) (DJP), Friday, 12 June 2015 16:55 (five years ago) link

i just put on the the tom tom club at the store and i totally forgot about the song "bamboo town".

scott seward, Friday, 12 June 2015 17:43 (five years ago) link

xp often the best strategy

Heroic melancholy continues to have a forceful grip on (bernard snowy), Friday, 12 June 2015 17:47 (five years ago) link

Ace of Base (feat. Boyd Rice & Death in June) - "All that She Wants (Is Another Nazi)"

kurt kobaïan (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 12 June 2015 18:30 (five years ago) link

LOL

flopson, Friday, 12 June 2015 18:30 (five years ago) link

memories

This sounds like the worst thing

maura, Friday, 12 June 2015 18:43 (five years ago) link

"What . . . gonna . . . do dance . . ." he raps to the beat. "What . . . gonna . . . do dance . . ." he raps to the beat. "What . . . gonna . . . do dance . . ." he raps to the beat. "What . . . gonna . . . do dance . . ." he raps to the beat. "What . . . gonna . . . do dance . . ." he raps to the beat. "What . . . gonna . . . do dance . . ." he raps to the beat. "What . . . gonna . . . do dance . . ." he raps to the beat. "What . . . gonna . . . do dance . . ." he raps to the beat. "What . . . gonna . . . do dance . . ." he raps to the beat. "What . . . gonna . . . do dance . . ." he raps to the beat. "What . . . gonna . . . do dance . . ." he raps to the beat. "What . . . gonna . . . do dance . . ." he raps to the beat. "What . . . gonna . . . do dance . . ." he raps to the beat. "What . . . gonna . . . do dance . . ." he raps to the beat. "What . . . gonna . . . do dance . . ." he raps to the beat. "What . . . gonna . . . do dance . . ." he raps to the beat. "What . . . gonna . . . do dance . . ." he raps to the beat.

how's life, Friday, 12 June 2015 18:48 (five years ago) link

Uffie was a nazi

The Reverend, Saturday, 13 June 2015 00:17 (five years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0SuIMUoShI

how's life, Saturday, 13 June 2015 00:49 (five years ago) link

four months pass...

CocoRosie: As charming as ever.

The loft used to belong to Bianca, and it is still filled with her art work, including a photograph of a brown dildo encased in purple quartz. (“I’m interested in exploring black-male sexual stereotypes,” she said, laconically.)

the top man in the language department (誤訳侮辱), Monday, 19 October 2015 12:32 (four years ago) link

this is self-parody at this point

I Am Curious (Dolezal) (DJP), Monday, 19 October 2015 13:09 (four years ago) link

haha it's like she's seen the classic nabisco post
Why does Europe love CocoRosie so much?

some dude, Monday, 19 October 2015 13:23 (four years ago) link

"Bianca, who had concluded that the ancestry of her and her sister is part Cherokee, “but more Syrian than anything else,” said that she was going to wing it. “I really like to surprise myself.” "

of COURSE she is Cherokee

akm, Monday, 19 October 2015 13:47 (four years ago) link

“The Camargue’s a landscape with just the right amount of darkness and death,” Bianca said. “Pale-wheat land and gray skies, the migration of storks in December, this Gypsy fête where they take the black Madonna into the sea. But it’s also harsh and ugly, trashed with lying-around junk. I’m in love with West Texas, and this part of France is completely Texan, ancient cowboys with leathery skin and light-blue eyes.” She went on, “We’ve started this thing called white-trash Sundays, where we burn wooden palettes, have our way with tractors. At night, the baby screech owls scream for food—it’s the most demonic sound I’ve ever heard.”

“We record in our courtyard at dusk,” Sierra added. “The birds are leaking into every song.”

Objectum-sexuals

I Am Curious (Dolezal) (DJP), Monday, 19 October 2015 14:07 (four years ago) link

seriously why is Cherokee the default tribe that white people claim is in their blood

marcos, Monday, 19 October 2015 14:20 (four years ago) link

I blame Europe:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRP8e47x55o

I Am Curious (Dolezal) (DJP), Monday, 19 October 2015 14:22 (four years ago) link

i blame don fardon. or paul revere & the raiders.

scott seward, Monday, 19 October 2015 15:01 (four years ago) link

i'm trying to think of the worst-case scenario with these guys. maybe starring in a netflix mini-series about the antebellum south that is directed by miranda july. that oughta do it.

i only read about them here though. who is their audience in 2015? french people?

scott seward, Monday, 19 October 2015 15:03 (four years ago) link

Was at a gig over the weekend - one of the acts was 'rejected and unheard of in his home country (UK) but had gained popularity in France'

this monstrous red flag did not dissuade me from hearing his set, which was some self-indulgent misogynist loathsome ageing-singer-songwriter flathat-wearing bullshit of the most irksome order

twunty fifteen (imago), Monday, 19 October 2015 15:07 (four years ago) link

I liked their first record, or maybe it was the second one. It had some charm. but they personally sound like loathsome narcissistic art school people with little to no actual experience with actual human beings.

akm, Monday, 19 October 2015 22:48 (four years ago) link

of COURSE she is Cherokee

every southern white person claims cherokee ancestry, it's a thing (science proves most of 'em wrong btw)

wizzz! (amateurist), Tuesday, 20 October 2015 00:45 (four years ago) link

Most of what I've read from them in interviews seems so problematic and "provocative" in all the wrong ways that I remained surprised that I *do* really like about 4-5 songs on each album they release.

Michael F Gill, Tuesday, 20 October 2015 02:06 (four years ago) link

I like DJP's explanation, but not as much as I like Rock the Night.

My sister-in-law apparently did some kinda of ancestry.com family tree that supposedly uncovered native-american ancestry. NOT Cherokee; a lesser-known group of people who would have been more appropriate for the area. But I don't know how much stock to place in that website, ya know? My dad was a super-genealogist. Spent his weekends at the National Archives and perusing Mormon microfilm collections. I really hope that in his retirement he'll offer to do some work on my wife's side of the family, so that my kids don't run around spouting any awkward fairy tales about their heritage.

how's life, Tuesday, 20 October 2015 12:22 (four years ago) link

actually every southern person full stop; whites and blacks.

wizzz! (amateurist), Tuesday, 20 October 2015 15:13 (four years ago) link

my paternal grandmother sent me a birthday card this year, and the first line of it was "i don't know if you know this, but my great-grandma was part cherokee indian." the message didn't even reference the fact that it was my birthday, actually

1999 ball boy (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 20 October 2015 15:20 (four years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZEZPs06Sgw

wizzz! (amateurist), Tuesday, 20 October 2015 20:13 (four years ago) link

apparently even most actual cherokees don't have a lot of genetic markers common to native americans. make of that what you will.

wizzz! (amateurist), Tuesday, 20 October 2015 20:27 (four years ago) link

meanwhile

“JEREMY PARKER is an actor, comedian, musician, and writer.

Under the monikers Jamstation, Next Nikki, Durty Nanas and Tha Pumpsta, he’s released five albums, and he’s worked with both well-known and underground personalities, including opening for legendary entertainer Slick Rick.”

maura, Tuesday, 20 October 2015 22:34 (four years ago) link

three years pass...

Uffie was a Nazi!

brigadier pudding (DJP), Wednesday, 31 July 2019 09:45 (one year ago) link

All that she wants
Is another baby
And to heil Hitler

loooooool

she carries a torch. two torches, actually (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Wednesday, 31 July 2019 10:25 (one year ago) link

back in 2019 thanks to Chance the rapper

Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 31 July 2019 11:58 (one year ago) link

Yeah that's why I bumped this; I was going to give Chance a chance and then I saw CocoRosie listed among the guest artists and was like ☮️

brigadier pudding (DJP), Wednesday, 31 July 2019 19:27 (one year ago) link

lol, give Chance a peace

fits, Wednesday, 31 July 2019 21:14 (one year ago) link

ahahahahahahahahaha

Hannah GAPDY (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, 31 July 2019 21:20 (one year ago) link

two months pass...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFD9juCW4AAWBxC?format=jpg

This seems like a bad idea

L'assie (Euler), Sunday, 6 October 2019 10:43 (ten months ago) link

Maybe they should invite Cocorosie to the Collège de France

L'assie (Euler), Sunday, 6 October 2019 13:04 (ten months ago) link

i never understood this band

treeship., Sunday, 6 October 2019 15:21 (ten months ago) link

xp your point is that fauvelle is white ?

budo jeru, Sunday, 6 October 2019 15:47 (ten months ago) link

thought it was :

Un professeur dans une université américaine s’étonne de constater cette majorité de « mâles blancs et âgés », inconcevable dans le milieu universitaire anglo-saxon, où enseignent certains des plus grands intellectuels du continent.

L'assie (Euler), Sunday, 6 October 2019 15:55 (ten months ago) link

Yep.

pomenitul, Sunday, 6 October 2019 15:55 (ten months ago) link

ah okay. will actually read article next time

budo jeru, Sunday, 6 October 2019 16:18 (ten months ago) link

"i never understood this band"

their first album has always been pretty good. I've not actually paid attention to anything since.

akm, Sunday, 6 October 2019 16:29 (ten months ago) link

three weeks pass...

Is it...possible that CocoRosie are unaware of the racial connotations of the term "shine"?

New album, new song/video.

https://static.stereogum.com/uploads/2019/10/Cocorosie-Put-The-Shine-On-1572439333-640x640.jpg

shared unit of analysis (unperson), Wednesday, 30 October 2019 13:02 (nine months ago) link

hasta la vista, rosie

☮ (peace, man), Wednesday, 30 October 2019 14:04 (nine months ago) link

lol phil

Whiney G. Weingarten, Wednesday, 30 October 2019 15:40 (nine months ago) link


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