TS: Madonna's "Like A Prayer" vs "Erotica"

Which is a pity if you think about good lap songs and their contexts.

Suffice to say you are so perfectly *right* about "Like a Prayer" (the song, as I'm less familiar with the album) that it almost ends all debate. In retrospect, the whole 89 to 92 time period intrigues me in that it seems almost out of time rather than of it.

And it's the time when so many impossible, hopeless claims were made about Madonna (Paglia, et al) that "Like A Prayer" stands as a jump-the-shark moment. She would go on to make several great singles and some very good albums, but her Relevance As Cultural Force vanished, anan artist/multimedia phenom like Madonna (like Bowie) requires the projections of fans and crtics in order to keep her engines stoked.

As for the larger questions here, Tim Finney, O'so/Nicole and Ally to thread!

that's kind of the story of her career, isn't it? she had a decade-plus run in which she seemed to release albums and singles nearly nonstop (she was way more prolific than the average superstar), and the quality almost never flagged. she managed this with a revolving door of collaborators, and just about the only thing that connects the dots through her catalog is her own credit. i don't recall patrick leonard doing anything with any other artist. i don't recall shep pettibone continuing to write, or co-write, great songs after he and madge split. and yet the men get all the credit.

sexism blah blah blah. anti-popism blah blah blah. i've always assumed there was something more to it than easy answers like that, but i could never put my finger on it. though maybe it has something to do with my own reaction to the way she's always presented herself in public, to her almost pathologically cold, stiff persona. i can't stand her. love her records, though. and admire the hell out of her work ethic and consistency. and think she's a hell of a songwriter.

fave song on like a prayer: "dear jessie."

Madonna = not rock.

Still astounded "Love Song" hasn't been revived as the Great Lost Single of Madonna's career. It's leagues weirder than anything Prince attempted in 1988-1989, and collaborating with Madonnna tickled his instinct for a good hook. It's just so dense and minimalist at the same time; so many things happening in the percussion, guitar licks, and vocals than the song can support. "Arch" doesn't even begin to describe it. THIS was on a multiplatinum album by the world's biggest pop star?

It's also got my favorite exchange ever:

Madonna: Embrasse moi

Prince: Whut?

It was never a single though. But sure, it's a great song. Possibly the best thing Prince did in 1989.

Ahh... this is most soitenly not the discussion I thought it would be when I saw thread title. I believe there was an exact antecedent to this thread back in Ancient Ilx somewhere, and I thought that was the thread that had been revived (maybe it had a differing name)..

"Love Song," was particularly panned disappointing at the time of LAP's release for not living upto an imagined "potential" duet between the decade's reigning superstars: how mellow, low-key! All tension, no release, etc. But I always thought it was this very quality that made it interesting: it's not trying to set the world on fire or even make you dance, but genuinely sounds like a SOTT-inspired dialogue between the two (yet I would say it's more Side B than A with reference to that album)

On the whole - and as a cohesive album - Erotica is still superior to the LAP by miles...I mean common rockist critical line championed out of the whole "ooh, substance!" discovery when LAP came out, but Erotica still made almost exactly the same position in the P&J (a few spots down) DESPITE the massive negative publicity of the book & Body of Evidence. And I was fairly certain that crit opinion had reverted y the beginning of this decade when Rockist-of-Rockists, Jim DeRockgatis, upgraded his rating of E and called it the best work of her career during a retrospective (Xgau had always held that position and it was the first studio album he had unreservedly given an A to, putting it in his top 10). Now that I'm being scarrry with statistics...

A simple way to answer this question: which album doesn't sound really dated? The entire production of LAP screams 1989, but I know that's part of its now-nostalgic appeal. Yet it still seems so desperately trying-too-hard, plz-to-find-me-SERIOUS ARTISTE- k-thx-bye. Erotica is effortless by contrast and demonstrates her immense growth in only three years - less trying to impress than provoke, it has large sections that sound utterly contemporary - and even her "artiste" moments are so far removed from LAP's schlock, I mean she's throwing fucking Gershwin in there. Its proto-trip-hop and synth-ambient mood stylings as prescient as Neneh Cherry's Homebrew which came out the same year - and I was amused to see *this* aspect being referenced in a discussion of her own canon in a new review of "Hard Candy" ->

From the Observer:
http://music.guardian.co.uk/pop/reviews/story/0,,2273969,00.html
>>Hidden away at the end of Madonna's oft-derided 1992 album Erotica is a song called 'Secret Garden'. Recorded before she'd popped out Lourdes, at a time when the wolves of artistic exhaustion and media overkill seemed to be snapping at her heels, it's a strikingly introspective and personal piece of work, which now has a prophetic lustre. While its lyrics map out previously uncharted emotional terrain, the musical backdrop prefigures the extent to which the best records Madonna was going to make in the coming decade and a half - 'Ray of Light', 'Music' and 'Hung Up', to name but three - would exceed the expectations anyone (even pop's iron lady herself) had a right to have of them.<<

Haha - of ALL songs to notice, finally, I'm glad that one is getting its due. It's so much better than any of the garbage she's written this decade! (I am almost thoroughly anti-Madonna post "Beautiful Stranger," with a handful of exceptions; this album could change that but it's unlikely). I mean I can go back and get astonished at listening to what she was slyly alluding to on that last song on Erotica - about childbirth and disillusionment - 15 years ago, but the closer on "Confessions," whatever its called, is such preachy self-important and unsubtle shit by comparison. "I'll be the garden you be the snake," - WHAT? - also mentioning a garden, that's why it makes me remember SG, but so cringe-worthy. No that she finally had the kids and used her vagina for something other than fucking and B-celebrity manipulation...what the hell happened to her *mind* ? It's as if becoming a wife and mother made her think she can coast on autopilot: she even recycles EXACT song names - "Forbidden Love, - but not Pt. II" - sans any wit, intelligence or irony - all of which initially made her memorable/fun to start with.

Mr Soto I liked your "On Second Thoughts" column on Erotica in Stylus a few years ago when I saw it, but you'll need to send me a link again since I'd a re-read. >>And some of the songwriting doesn't settle right with me, like Bad Girl? I just don't know about that. I mean it's funny at least. << Are you serious? It's her best written song (not just ballad) this side of "Live to Tell" (and more confessional to boot)

That last bit was directed at Surmounter fwiw; I like how ILX knows exactly when to revive threads that would just be of interest to me - Erotica here, cosmic retribution over there - during my bi-annual visits, just to hook me into sticking around....humbug!

From the other thread: "What I've heard strikes me as a successor to Music, another tour through the latest dance trends, except she's so busy dancing and staring at Justin's ass that she farms out the songwriting more often than usual."

Much more along the lines of what I predicted then, alas - but that's been her mojo now...after Ray of Light, when she finally felt grammy-minted and critically "made it," she's let go of any aspirations towards songwriting at all (and her best songwriters as well) - for what is there left to prove? The one trainwreck of the only "serious album," American Life, was co-written by a French guy who apparently isn't great at English. She's beyond care.

Here ya go, Vichi.

You are mostly OTM too, except LAP was so overrated for a while that now it's her most underrated album (still inferior to Erotica though).

i'm always blown away by Love Song

I didn't actually realize that Erotica had such a significant critical backing even in the day, but I am heartened by it. It remains pretty much the only Madonna album that does anything for me as an album.

yeah it's like that, you don't think ppl responded to it well but after the fact that doesnt seem to be so

The entire production of LAP screams 1989

The faster and more "poppy" tracks, maybe, but LAP is mainly about those wonderful melodic ballads, and they sound as timeless now as they did in 1989.

On the other hand, "Erotica" sounds extremely 1992. Those "thumping" dance beats are extremely outdated by now and will never again get back in fashion.

LAP is mainly about Act of Contrition

The faster and more "poppy" tracks, maybe, but LAP is mainly about those wonderful melodic ballads, and they sound as timeless now as they did in 1989.

Yes – I hate "Spanish Eyes" as much as I did in 1989.

"Spanish Eyes" is in my Top 10 of all time favourite Madonna tracks. Absolutely beautiful. "Oh Father" and "Dear Jessie" are even better though, and "Promise To Try" is almost up there. Those four songs are the main reasons why I love "Like a Prayer" so much. Madonna shows there's more to her than those annoying and stupid dance tracks. She shows she can also do classy and timeless music with great tunes, appealing to all generations, not just the kids.

only just realised 'Love Song' has the "time goes by so slowly for those who wait/those who run seem to have all the fun" lines later cribbed for Hung Up...but also the 'were you just being kind, or am i losing my mind" line from Liza Minelli/PSBs 'Losing My Mind? who stole from who here?

"Losing My Mind" is a Sondheim number predating both songs by several years.

aha thx

Erotica is a lot of people's favorite Maddie studio album

??? the mind boggles as to who the "a lot of people" in this statment are...i.e. like the vast majority of people in the world that don't even remember erotica at all?

The vast majority of us who have better ears and believe in freedom.

Also better butts.

wouldn't a lot of ppl's favorite be like a virgin?

(don't want to see your butt kevin, no offense)

What people? I've never heard anyone rep for it. In order of frequency of mention: Like a Prayer, The Immaculate Collection, Erotica.

http://www.the-top-tens.com/lists/best-madonna-albums.asp
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=10584534401&topic=7853
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x2555983
http://www.rankopedia.com/ZoneID=3/2566/Best-Madonna-album/Step1/1016.htm

None, Madonna sucks (8 votes, 50%)

the 21 million ppl that bought like a virgin as opposed to 5 mil that bought erotica?

also, i looked at erotica's tracklist and can't even recognize or think of one song on it besides the title track.

"Deeper and Deeper"?

honestly doesn't ring a bell.

but according to yr polls maybe it's actually "ray of light"

"It can't be this popular! I haven't heard it!"

"deeper and deeper"? "bad girl"? those were both biggish, both great too. i could have sworn "justify my love" is on it too, but i guess not.

anyway, erotica looks to be the muso choice but no it is not the global consensus pick by any means

xps

ok so we're really gonna sit her and pretend that "deeper and deeper" and "erotic" are as well known as "like a virgin" "express yourself" "cherish" "material girl" "like a prayer" etc etc?

You seriously don't know this song?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc_42BbKqU4&feature=player_embedded

I actually was going to say Ray of Light but was wondering if Google would turn up enough data points to back me up; funnily enough, the other album that gets mentioned a lot is... Confessions of a Dancefloor.

(xpost, justify my love is on "it takes a nation of millions to hold us back" actually)

(xxpost) ah yeah okay i remember it now

critics /= "people," btw

I mean seriously, it's not like ppl are going "WTF you've never heard 'Rain' before?????????"

i'm not talking about rock critics, i'm talking about actual human beings!

i was about to say, what about "rain"? :-/

i bet when those songs aren't in the big karaoke catalog.

haha I should have gone with "Fever" since that was a big club hit but didn't do anything on the pop chart

LAP, too easily.

(also "Erotica" hit #3 so I'm betting a ton of ppl do actually remember it)

Can we call Erotica a critical fave (perhaps noting that Madonna signifies most as a singles artist [if even that, really]) and then get back to dancing/our better butts?

Kevin John Bozelka's butt is NOT canon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madonna_singles_discography

wau Canada

Kevin John Bozelka's butt is NOT canon

Uh oh. Is that Hi Dere's new login name (or whatever those things are called)?

haha no, I only pick on Mondays

I don't think any of Madonna's albums are particularly well-remembered by people generally, outside of the singles - Matt do "the people" whose opinion you want to put forward here remember any tracks from Like A Virgin outside its two big hits (and "Angel" at a stretch)? Like A Virgin is possibly Madonna's least talked-about album-qua-album.

Like A Prayer probably would rate best in terms of "songs people remember" but only because, like, over half the tracks were released as singles and all had reasonably strong promo push.

But in general what "the people" remember is The Immaculate Collection.

Anyway you should go and listen to Erotica, it's fantastic. A bit sad though: a friend pointed out to me recently that "Words" has really good lyrics, and I immediately thought to myself "yeah I like it too, but isn't that supposed to be the worst song on the album lyrically?", and then I realised she was comparing it to recent Madonna lyrics.

But in general what "the people" remember is The Immaculate Collection.

i would absolutely agree w/this and it's the only madonna i will ever need

but there's nothing from erotica on it. :(

surely people remember true blue as an album, given how many of its songs were singles? and standards, at that.

always got the impression that like a prayer was the consensus ::canon:: favourite, with a smaller but significant minority of critics/fans (most of whom are pretty hardcore madonna fans) repping for erotica.

(the erotica backers are, of course, correct.)

Singles to album track ratio of True Blue: 5/0
Like a Prayer: 6/11

er, 5/9

haha i was gonna say true blue is like rift in the space time continuum!

Then Play Long writes a little letter to Madonna: http://nobilliards.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/madonna-like-prayer.html

til death do us part is my favorite madonna song at this point. It's just utterly irresistible. That dry-ass chicken clucking against the liquid guitar splashes and that melllooodyyyy, oh heavens help me.

Every time I play LAP all the way through I like it more and more as an album too. Might be my favorite Madonna album as a whole now.

SHE'S NOT IN LOVE WITH HIM ANYMORE

i listened to this album yesterday and 1. i don't think i voted for "cherish" in the madonna poll 2. i think it's my favorite madonna song now? 3. it's at least the closest she came to recording a scritti politti song. that instrumentation!

Why did we both listen to this album yesterday? ~mysteries~

'Till Death Do Us Part' is perfection, one of my Top 4 tracks on the LP along with the title track, 'Dear Jessie' and 'Oh Father' ... I've been listening to Like a Prayer a lot recently. Excellently produced, almost every song is fantastic and it has Prince on it!

WHAT DO YOU MEAN IT'S NOT IN THE COMPUTER!?

Wait, how come Erotica has been polled twice and Like a Prayer hasn't been polled at all?

(Not counting the artist poll, of course)

"Keep It Together" rules

going to guess DJP went apoplectic when he read this in the Pitchfork review re: Express Yourself:

Though it’s worth noting that the version on Like a Prayer sounds anemic compared to the utterly superior Shep Pettibone single remix, which foregrounds the cowbell and makes the bouncing-ball bassline a go-on-girl counterpoint to Madonna’s message.

Re: "Express Yourself," I got confused by which mix is which - fortunately I found this handy post from another forum:

There is always so much confusion over the different mixes of the "Express Yourself" single and video. I'll try to explain...

First I'll start with the US promo CD. It has four tracks on it:

1. (7" Remix) 4:30
2. (Remix/Edit) 4:50
3. (Non-Stop Express Mix) 7:54
4. (Local Mix) 6:20

7" Remix is the version that was released on 7" vinyl and cassette single in the US. It sounds similar to the Like A Prayer album version, but was remixed by Shep Pettibone and includes more overdubs of synths, horns and string sections.

Remix/Edit is Shep Pettibone's dance remix of the song which is a totally reworked house version (some of the same synth & string parts that were added to his 7" Remix are also included in this mix.

Non-Stop Express Mix is Shep Pettibone's extended dance version of his (Remix/Edit).

and Local Mix is Shep's extended remix version of his 7" Remix.

A dub version of his dance remix version was also released on the "Express Yourself" 12" single, Stop & Go Dubs 10:50, but it wasn't included on the promo CD.

As for the video, there were two mixes released. Version 1 uses (Remix/Edit) as the soundtrack, but the intro is replaced with the intro from the Local Mix but with additional echo added to the line "do you believe love." Version 2 uses 7" Remix as the soundtrack, and the intro is also replaced with the intro from the Local Mix, but this time they left the audio as it appears on the Local Mix, without additional echo on the line "do you believe in love," and since the 7" Remix is shorter and fades out, the second video ends earlier with the soundtrack cutting to the ending from the Local Mix of the song.

Version 1 was officially released on the Celebration DVD and Version 2 was officially released on The Immaculate Collection VHS and DVD.

In 1990, Shep Pettibone remixed the song again (based off of his dance remix version) for The Immaculate Collection album. The new 4:02 Q-Sound version appears on the album and also on the B-side of the "Justify My Love" single. He also made an extended 9:30 Q-Sound version called "Express Yourself (Shep's 'Spressin' Himself Re-Remix)" which appears on the "Justify My Love" maxi-single.

Then in 2009, another version was released on her Celebration compilation album. This 4:00 version is basically an attempt to recreate the 1990 Immaculate Collection length edit, but using the (Local Mix) intro and the Remix/Edit. It's missing the additional echo on "do you believe in love" so it does not include the same audio as the Version 1 video which means you can only get that intro on the Celebration DVD.

And I called it an "attempt" to recreate The Immaculate Collection edit, cuz after the 3rd chorus they end up cutting further than they should to the wrong part of the song (they cut to the second time she sings "and when you're gone he might regret it," instead of the first time she sings it) and then they give up editing the rest of the song cuz it ends up being 4:00 after their strange edit.

I never ever heard the album version when it became a radio hit. And the single version rules.

...of "Keep It Together," that is.