What was the first Goth record you liked?

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Mine would probably be the Sisters of Mercy's "When You Don't See Me", which was all over alterna-rock radio in L.A in 1990.

― The Emancipation of Baaderonixx (KERERU 4 LIFE!) (Fabfunk), Monday, 23 May 2005 12:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Bela Lugosi's Dead (NB I am old)

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Monday, 23 May 2005 12:45 (twenty-one years ago)

I still like it as well!!

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Monday, 23 May 2005 12:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah me too. (both things) and xpost

Advert, now?

― mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 23 May 2005 12:47 (twenty-one years ago)

advert, now?

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Monday, 23 May 2005 12:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Does The Walk by The Cure count as Goth (or perhaps as slightly gothed-out Blue Monday rewrite)?
I remember hearing that on the radio when I was 10 (NB I am also old), but I certainly had no awareness of what a goth was at that point in time!

― M Carty (mj_c), Monday, 23 May 2005 12:53 (twenty-one years ago)

The Banshees' 'Happy House'

― NickB (NickB), Monday, 23 May 2005 12:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah if I counted The Cure than I'd have to say 'Just Like Heaven'. I also remember hearing 'Bela Lugosi' as a youngster, in The Hunger, and quite liking it.

― The Emancipation of Baaderonixx (KERERU 4 LIFE!) (Fabfunk), Monday, 23 May 2005 12:55 (twenty-one years ago)

It'll End In Tears, probably.

― Roz (Roz), Monday, 23 May 2005 13:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Sisters Of Mercy 'Dominion'

― $V£N! (blueski), Monday, 23 May 2005 13:17 (twenty-one years ago)

christian death only theatre of pain

― el sabor de gene (yournullfame), Monday, 23 May 2005 13:19 (twenty-one years ago)

What was the first Goth record?

Probably that one anyway.

NB. I am also old.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Monday, 23 May 2005 13:21 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm certain there was something that my brother listened to that I picked up on as a much younger youth, but right now the answer that's coming up for me is "Smothered Hope" by Skinny Puppy.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 23 May 2005 13:27 (twenty-one years ago)

never been too much into goth bands, still i like early christian death for their funny moments ("reficul!") and some banshees' singles.
btw, i'm not able to consider the cure a goth band (to me, they're more like a paranoid, 80's version of the kinks).

― Marco Damiani (Marco D.), Monday, 23 May 2005 13:32 (twenty-one years ago)

"Spellbound" by Siouxsie & the Banshees or "Do You Believe in the Westworld" by Theatre of Hate.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 23 May 2005 13:37 (twenty-one years ago)

I'd heard and bought several of the early Siouxsie, Damned and Cure records, filing them under "punk", but the first guy I ever met who identified the oncoming goth scene and sported the look was a black guy from Detroit that I met in the Marines. Traded him a lot of British records for hardcore stuff -- he may have come out ahead on that one.

Later that year (81-82?) I encountered kids in France and Italy rocking the Batcave look, and they were referred to as "darks".

― brianiac (briania), Monday, 23 May 2005 13:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, yeah, "Do You Believe in the Westworld" -- you could definitely feel the onset of gothic twilight when that came out.

― brianiac (briania), Monday, 23 May 2005 13:58 (twenty-one years ago)

I was into metal first, so probably Paradise Lost 'Gothic' and 'Draconian Times' if that counts.

― Jordan (Jordan), Monday, 23 May 2005 13:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Later that year (81-82?) I encountered kids in France and Italy rocking the Batcave look, and they were referred to as "darks"

yes, here they're called darks: probably because to latin ears "goths" has a slightly funny sound...

― Marco Damiani (Marco D.), Monday, 23 May 2005 13:59 (twenty-one years ago)

First heard and liked: Cocteau Twins "Wax And Wane" on the radio in 1982 or 3.

First bought: Bauhaus "The Sky's Gone Out", unless you count Pink Floyd's "The Wall" as a goth album, which I am tempted to do but ultimately cannot.

― sleeve (sleeve), Monday, 23 May 2005 14:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Heya Marco! I keep forgetting to write you an e-mail about JG, shall do that.

The first self-consciously goth song I heard? Er, I'm not sure.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 23 May 2005 14:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Or "Corbeaux" (ravens), as they're also often referred to in France...

― The Emancipation of Baaderonixx (KERERU 4 LIFE!) (Fabfunk), Monday, 23 May 2005 14:03 (twenty-one years ago)

xpost - Haha, I still think "darks" is a better term, and use it to this day, eliciting WTFs from my daughter and her nouveau glam-goth friends.

― brianiac (briania), Monday, 23 May 2005 14:03 (twenty-one years ago)

SoM, "This Corrosion."

― Guayaquil, Monday, 23 May 2005 14:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Ned, just waiting for you here...the guys were really glad to finally meet you and we're planning some large, italian-style communal dinner!

― Marco Damiani (Marco D.), Monday, 23 May 2005 14:14 (twenty-one years ago)

IIRC, proto-goths in the UK were part of this scene that was known as "posi-punk" - UK Decay & Charge possibly the main bands?

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Monday, 23 May 2005 14:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Jeez, some of you are so damn young!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 23 May 2005 14:30 (twenty-one years ago)

IIRC, proto-goths in the UK were part of this scene that was known as "posi-punk" - UK Decay & Charge possibly the main bands?

Aye, I was going to say UK Decay's "Werewolf".

― Si Carter (Si Carter), Monday, 23 May 2005 14:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Shock Therapy's "Hate is a 4 letter word," not as much Lost Boys goth as rusty warehouse goth.

― scrimshaw (scrimshaw1837), Monday, 23 May 2005 15:49 (twenty-one years ago)

it's much harder to remember the first goth record i didn't like. probably the mission's "carved in sand."

― fortunate hazel (f. hazel), Monday, 23 May 2005 16:03 (twenty-one years ago)

I gotta go with the Cure Head On The Door LP, and yes, I think they are still Goth, even though they have way better pop sensibilities than most of that ilk. It's all the black eyeliner and hairspray and sullen looks I think...

― Hutlock (Hutlock), Monday, 23 May 2005 16:14 (twenty-one years ago)

cure "lovecats"

― elise, Monday, 23 May 2005 16:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Probably Killing Joke doing "Follow The Leaders" on Top Of The Pops.

― aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Monday, 23 May 2005 18:05 (twenty-one years ago)

My brother got First and Last and Always when it came out, but we didn't know they were Goths. Kerrang had recommended it.

― TV's Mr Noodle Vague (noodle vague), Monday, 23 May 2005 18:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Probably Killing Joke doing "Follow The Leaders" on Top Of The Pops.

Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 23 May 2005 18:11 (twenty-one years ago)

we sold our souls for rock and roll, black sabbath

"real" goth? -- the cure, pornography

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 23 May 2005 18:13 (twenty-one years ago)

favorite "non-goth" goth rekkids -- (a) everything by black sabbath; (b) wu-tang clan, enter the 36 chambers; (c) gza, liquid swords; (d) echo and the bunnymen, heaven up here and porcupine!

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 23 May 2005 18:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Probably Faith or Pornography.

― M. White (Miguelito), Monday, 23 May 2005 18:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Fuck, I don't know. I was exposed to Siouxsie, The Cure, Bauhaus, The Sisters of Mercy, et al. before I could even remember it and it was already there and I was accustommed to them by the time I could recall anything I remembered being exposed to at an early age.

― Ian Riese-Moraine is on toffuti break! (Eastern Mantra), Monday, 23 May 2005 18:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Probably Siouxsie (quite possibly "Spellbound") or something off the Cure's Pornography (which I liked at one time).

Oh yeah, maybe also "Do You Believe in the Western World" (is that goth?). So whatever Alex in NYC said, basically.

― RS, Monday, 23 May 2005 18:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Except he made me get the title wrong because I did think it was "Westworld."

― Rs, Monday, 23 May 2005 18:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Bauhaus, "Double Dare"

― daria g (daria g), Monday, 23 May 2005 18:54 (twenty-one years ago)

KJ aren't goth but that first album toes an awful fine line - I know that it was well-liked by all my goth friends, and that the perceived gothiness of it was what attracted me to it

(nb What's THIS for...! was not perceived as being very goth at all, and the next album even less so. But to call the first album goth isn't any more wrong than calling Bauhaus goth, I think.)

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Monday, 23 May 2005 18:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Except he made me get the title wrong because I did think it was "Westworld."

The album was Westworld, the song was "Do You Believe in the Westworld".

http://www.a-cd.de/images/articles/2004-09-30_222502_theatre_of_hate_westworld.jpg

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 23 May 2005 19:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Oops. Actually I somehow misread you as having written "Do you believe in the western world," so I need to get my new glasses prescription filled.

― RS, Monday, 23 May 2005 19:05 (twenty-one years ago)

& it's weird, because I wouldn't have been expecting you to make that mistake, and yet I somehow imagined you made it even though you didn't.

― RS, Monday, 23 May 2005 19:06 (twenty-one years ago)

I know it's hard to imagine, RS, but I do make mistakes. Just not this time. Hahahaha.

I still remember the first time I saw/heard the Sisters of Mercy was via the gloriously low-budget video for "Walk Away," which featured the boys in block frugging around in the dark around some lazers (Frankie GTH put out a virtually identical video for "Relax"). I remember thinking it sounded like David Bowie being played at the wrong speed (and reading a review that said the very same thing short after). And I was hooked, of course.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 23 May 2005 19:08 (twenty-one years ago)

boys in block

err.....boys in black, altough "boys in block" does sound appropriately, gothically Teutonic.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 23 May 2005 19:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Some song by The Grinch when I saw the original animated movie.

― donut debonair (donut), Monday, 23 May 2005 19:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Probably Killing Joke doing "Follow The Leaders" on Top Of The Pops.
Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.Not goth.

-- Alex in NYC (vassifer...), May 23rd, 2005. (later)

Au contraire. In 1981, in Britain, defiantly Goth - or at least proto-Goth. I mean, sheets of flanged guitar?

Of course, what with you being a fan of the Goth cash-in period, you're probably right. Follow The Leaders isn't nearly Goth compared to Eighties or Love Like Blood.

― aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Monday, 23 May 2005 19:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Considering further, checking on release dates, it was probably something from Juju (maybe Halloween or Monitor rather than Spellbound).

― RS, Monday, 23 May 2005 19:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Follow The Leaders isn't nearly Goth compared to Eighties or Love Like Blood.

I'd concede that "Eighties" and "Love Like Blood" are closer to what some might consider "Goth," but "Follow the Leaders" is post-punk, baby.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 23 May 2005 19:31 (twenty-one years ago)

and the entirety of revelations?!?

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 23 May 2005 19:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, Alex has a point in that, if Killing Joke is goth, then Section 25 are certainly goth, too... and nobody calls them that.

― donut debonair (donut), Monday, 23 May 2005 19:38 (twenty-one years ago)

As are pretty much all the Sisters records prior to signing to WEA. Or Cure records prior to Seventeen Seconds. Or the early Banshees records. Or, arguably (and Bela Lugosi's Dead excepted) early Bauhaus material.

DO YOU SEE?

You're making a distinction that isn't there. There's no way Cocteau Twins are Goth, except for being liked by Goths, but they get named on this thread without comment (in fact, I thought of naming them at one point). Theatre Of Hate are absolutely 100% post-punk, but you name them Goth in an instant.

DO YOU SEE?

― aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Monday, 23 May 2005 19:40 (twenty-one years ago)

(The Cocteau Twins' early "Paper Chase" sounded just like Siouxsie.)

― RS, Monday, 23 May 2005 19:43 (twenty-one years ago)

nikki sixx looked like metalhead goth. you've never seen him and robert smith in the same room at the same time, no?!?

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 23 May 2005 19:44 (twenty-one years ago)

:bellydancer:

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 23 May 2005 19:49 (twenty-one years ago)

(The Cocteau Twins' early "Paper Chase" sounded just like Siouxsie.)
"Persephone" you mean?

Even so, Cocteau Twins were initally massively inspired by The Birthday Party. Garlands counts if anything.

― Ian Riese-Moraine is on toffuti break! (Eastern Mantra), Monday, 23 May 2005 21:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Look, if you makes you people happy to consider Killing Joke a bunch of goths, then fine....think that. But know that you're wallowing in a big, putrid septic tank of WRONG!

When I first heard Theatre of Hate, I don't believe they were bandying the word "goth" around (I heard "Gloom" a lot in its place). By definition, all Goth is post-punk, isn't it? But the term itself (Goth) is one I still consider a pejorative (being that it was coined by dismissive journalists, was it not?). While they deny it to the death, the Sisters of Mercy at their prime pretty much EMBODIED everything that is largely associated with Goth. There's no escaping the tag in their case, but Killing Joke came from an entirely differnt perspective. Yes, there's a general aura of doom, but there's also a dub influence, a krautrock influence, a metal influence, a disco influence. Like them or not, you must concede that there's more to Killing Joke than the casual trappings of Goth. (Morover, they didn't all wear black all the time.) And if that's the criteria of Goth, big deal. The Stranglers wore black. Were they Goth? I think not.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 23 May 2005 21:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Is there anything more odd than inadvertantly being goth?

Do enough drugs, turn a 45 of Go Go Girls 'Our Lips Are Sealed' to 33 and revel in the mournfulness of it all.

― M. White (Miguelito), Monday, 23 May 2005 21:36 (twenty-one years ago)

i was only teasing you wr2 my revelations comment, alex!

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 23 May 2005 21:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Probably some early The Cure. Already the first time I heard "Staring At The Sea", I liked "Other Voices" a lot.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, 23 May 2005 21:52 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, if you really want to parse terms....what on earth makes "The Lovecats" a 'goth' tune? It's a simple pop song through and through without the slightest shred of a Goth trapping. That it's sung by a band renowned for wallowing in the doomy and gloomy (I don't think anyone would debate the fact that Pornography is a goth staple) is the only thing that qualifies it, but had it been performed by, say, Swing Out Sister, no one would call it a goth tune.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 23 May 2005 22:04 (twenty-one years ago)

that swing out sister singer-chick looked kinda-gothy.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 23 May 2005 22:04 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.asterion.se/sos.jpeg http://corie.acoustic-dream.com/art/siouxsie.jpg

There is a resemblance, it's true.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 23 May 2005 22:08 (twenty-one years ago)

http://members.optushome.com.au/evilpundit/blog/images/american-goth.jpg

― PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie), Monday, 23 May 2005 22:09 (twenty-one years ago)

alex's gloom comment above makes me think of the misfits.

my answer: "everyday is halloween" by ministry

*runs*

― tricky (disco stu), Monday, 23 May 2005 22:29 (twenty-one years ago)

*runs back*

non-facetious answer, probably the sky's gone out

― tricky (disco stu), Monday, 23 May 2005 22:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Fwiw I don't think Theatre Of Hate were any more (or, less) "Goth" than Killing Joke.

http://www.lexiconmagazine.com/NWC/img/new_theatre.jpg

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 01:53 (twenty-one years ago)

this guy right here is a goth no matter who says otherwise, I mean honestly:

http://www.rockobrobje.com/kjok_c1.jpg

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 01:57 (twenty-one years ago)

I would humbly suggest that, although there were certainly bands about prior to this who would later either be adopted by the "Goth" movement (can we call them "proto Goth"?); and inevitably other bands who would later jump on the "Goth" bandwagon once it started rolling; the movement really began to develop a separet distinct identity with the opening of The Batcave in 1982.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 02:04 (twenty-one years ago)

"this guy right here is a goth no matter who says otherwise, I mean honestly"

On the contrary, as the picture you've posted quite clearly demonstrates, none of the members of Killing Joke ever had enough hair or spent long enough back-combing it, to ever be proper "Goths".

That their music is enjoyed by a lot of Goths is not in dispute: but to suggest that every musician with a penchant for wearing too much black; or who ever attracted a substantial "Goth" following; is therefore by definition a "Goth" themselves, has to be arrant nonsense.

Otherwise we'll have to start calling Johnny Cash and David Bowie "Goth" too.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 02:10 (twenty-one years ago)

I think we covered a lot of this ground before on this thread 'ere.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 02:14 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.versaillesrecords.com/images/asf.jpg

― tricky (disco stu), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 02:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Certainly a good example of a band who jumped on the "Goth" bandwagon very early on (Nik Fiend had previously been in a punk band called Demon Preacher who were playing at The Roxy back in '77).

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 02:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Siouxsie and the Banshees "Kaleidoscope" album. But there was no such label as Goth at the time, and they were associated with punk/new wave. The context was altogether different than it is today. The Damned's "Black Album" in particular the track "Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde", and Dave Vanian's whole persona at that time are another example of a punk band who were later adopted into the Goth genre.

Similarly, Christian Death (RIP Rozz, who used to hang out in my suburban OC garage with friends and roomies, barely outta high school) wasn't "Goth" at the time, they were just labelled as a punk band.

It's interesting that "punk" as a label, when punk was happening as a fairly mainstream teenage thing (my era 1977-1984), was a very inclusive label among fans (except for the MRR-type infighting about what is punk and what is not) and anyone who wasn't part of the corporate 70s dinosaur scene was associated with "punk".

As far as most teenagers in 1980 were concerned, the B52s were just as punk as The Clash. When Jimmy Carter failed in squishing the punk bug in the US, parts of it were genred into safedom. That's when New Wave started to separate out the more radio accessible stuff for the program managers who wanted to know what they could play without getting fired.

Oddly, at the time, in Southern California radio, Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, and Billy Joel were both labelled "New Wave" which looking back makes about zero sense. Or all the sense in the world, from the Top 40 radio station's point of view, I suppose.

Anyway I'm rambling now, sorry for derail.

― Orbit (Orbit), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 02:44 (twenty-one years ago)

multiple xpost

Stewart is right, we can argue about what things are goth and what aren't forever, but much of it depends on the hairstyles of the band members in question.

That said, my knee-jerk answer to the title of this thread is Bela Lugosi's Dead. I am old (but only sort of).

Do enough drugs, turn a 45 of Go Go Girls 'Our Lips Are Sealed' to 33 and revel in the mournfulness of it all.

That's the best damn idea I've heard all year.

― The Silent Disco of Glastonbury (Bimble...), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 02:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Great post, Orbit!

― The Silent Disco of Glastonbury (Bimble...), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 02:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Stewart is OTM on that other thread, and that's the point I was trying to bring out here. The Batcave is well and good as an example but (and only really being able to speak about Scotland) Goth (in terms of people being dressed like Goths) only really appeared towards the very end of the first wave - there were next to none on the Sisters 'Black October' tour in 84, but a fair few the following March... and the people who were going to shows like this were just as likely to listen to Joy Division, The Damned or Killing Joke as the SoM. The explosion in clothig came with the second wave of bands like The Mission, but then petered out as the people became interested in other things - I was aware of a huge migration (mainly by girls) to the Wonder Stuff/PWEI/MC4/Senseless Things scene, and a large chunk of the males moved into New Beat and then on to the US Industrial scene.

I fail to see what's Goth about, for example, Play Dead, but I'm sure few here would join me.

So in terms of 'Batcave' bands, probably either Alien Sex Fiend, Sex Gang Children or The Specimen. Which track, no idea and I didn't really like any of them much.

― aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 05:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Would Belfegore be considered gothic? Alex? If so, then their LP's my choice. And if they weren't...

― Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 06:16 (twenty-one years ago)

early dead or alive eg: "misty circles " on Razzmatazz 1983

― bete purns, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 07:33 (twenty-one years ago)

The first and second wave thing aldo mentions occurring around 84 was very distinct: before that, there were lots of people dressing entirely in black and back-combing their hair into tumbleweed(including me), but this was just a strand within punk. Similarly, there was a covergence of styles and themes going on in music. After 84, the press got a handle on it and it became a category.

For me - Bauhaus 'in the Flat Field', though definitely not just 'Bela'. The Banshees 'JuJu'is also a key record.

― Soukesian, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 08:04 (twenty-one years ago)

On the contrary, as the picture you've posted quite clearly demonstrates, none of the members of Killing Joke ever had enough hair or spent long enough back-combing it, to ever be proper "Goths"

Ummm....wrong.

http://www.anirrationaldomain.net/images/geordie/geordie16.JPG

They're still not Goths, though.

Regarding Theatre of Hate, I don't think I've ever read anything about them that didn't include the word Goth. That said, They didn't wear all black nor backcomb anything either (they look more like Havana 3am...or vice versa, actually), and their debut album was produced by very-decidedly-not-at-all-Goth Mick Jones. Still, they're called Goths (or 'gloomy'). Plus, they had a sax player. How goth is that?

Still....Killing Joke...not goths. Thanks.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 10:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Err, Fields of the Neph had a sax player...

― The Emancipation of Baaderonixx (KERERU 4 LIFE!) (Fabfunk), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 10:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Did they?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 11:00 (twenty-one years ago)

That was Theatre of Hate

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 11:03 (twenty-one years ago)

... oops, stating the bleedin' obvious!

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 11:06 (twenty-one years ago)

AMG:
Fields of the Nephilim formed in 1984, in Stevenage, Hertfordshire, with an original lineup of McCoy, guitarist Paul Wright, his brother Nod on drums, saxophonist Gary Whisker and bassist Tony Pettit. The quintet played many live shows and released the EP Burning the Fields in late 1984. Whisker then left the band, just as Peter Yates was added as a second guitarist.

― The Emancipation of Baaderonixx (KERERU 4 LIFE!) (Fabfunk), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 11:09 (twenty-one years ago)

well blow me down.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 11:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Nephs in "not goth" SHOCKAH!!

― The Emancipation of Baaderonixx (KERERU 4 LIFE!) (Fabfunk), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 11:56 (twenty-one years ago)

"I fail to see what's Goth about, for example, Play Dead, but I'm sure few here would join me."

Fwiw I don't think PLay Dead were any more (or, less) "Goth" than Theatre Of Hate or Killing Joke.

Speaking of which....

"Ummm....wrong."

Bugger!

Which bleedin' side are you on Alex?

"It's interesting that "punk" as a label, when punk was happening as a fairly mainstream teenage thing (my era 1977-1984), was a very inclusive label among fans (except for the MRR-type infighting about what is punk and what is not) and anyone who wasn't part of the corporate 70s dinosaur scene was associated with "punk"."

Please can we have this carved prominently in tablets of stone; preferably incorpoarting some sort of handles or hand-grips so that in future I can use them beat everyone who seems unable to grasp this simple fact about the head with?

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 12:04 (twenty-one years ago)

That's part of my point Stewart - punk was inclusive, Goth was exclusive. None of the bands (probably up until about mid 85) wanted to associate with Goth as a concept, except the Batcave mob. Even later, people like Eldritch have always tried to keep their distance from the 'movement'.

Yes, there's a general aura of doom, but there's also a dub influence, a krautrock influence, a metal influence, a disco influence.

Step forward Alien Sex Fiend.

― aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 12:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Stewart & aldo largely OTM

(you & i must have a conversation about these matters one day, Stewart)

cultural back-annotation = largely dud

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 12:23 (twenty-one years ago)

My (not so) secret Goth Shame: the saxophone player from Ver Neffs is now my brother-in-law!

And it's spelt "Wisker", Mr AMG.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 12:29 (twenty-one years ago)

"None of the bands (probably up until about mid 85) wanted to associate with Goth as a concept"

Without wishing to appear overly sneery and patronising about the entire "Goth" "movement", I've never been entirely sure that "Goth" ever actually had that much of a "concept" at the time - which is probably why (as you quite correctly observe) few if any bands were overly keen to asociate themselves with it.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 12:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Well you're right, it didn't have a concept outside of the media (who were very shy on elaborating what the concept was).

So, in effect, this question is unanswerable for records before about '85?

― aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 12:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Goth in "non existing" SHOCKAH!!

― The Emancipation of Baaderonixx (KERERU 4 LIFE!) (Fabfunk), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 12:38 (twenty-one years ago)

".... it didn't have a concept outside of the media (who were very shy on elaborating what the concept was)."

Would it not be fair to say that in this respect it was rather like "New Wave", "Post-Punk" or possibly even "Indie"?

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 13:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, quite.

The Scene That Didn't Celebrate Itself.

― aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 13:26 (twenty-one years ago)

I dunno....I mean, if Killing Joke are goths, then I suppose Public Image Ltd., Gang of Four, Joy Division, the Pop Group and XTC are too then. See what I mean?

Other Goff `choons with Sax's in'em:

- "Street of Dreams" by the Damned
- "A Night Like This" by the Cure (izzit Goth?)

...and there's some Sisters instrumental with one, if memory serves.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 13:29 (twenty-one years ago)

There's potentially a case for Joy Division out of that lot (in terms of being a band almost all early 80s goths agree on) but none of them made an album as goth-friendly as Night Time.

Love Like Blood is on most "The Best Goff Album In The World... Ever" things, isn't it? For a concept we're beginning to question ever was really appropriate that must be about as accurate a yardstick as there is.

― aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 13:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Alex, would you mind terribly if I were to appropriate, adopt and adapt a stance that you may be familiar with, but in this instance wrt The Damned?

Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth". Not "Goth".

Just because the bleedin' Goths decided to try to copy the way Dave Vanian had been dressing since 1976, The Damned are not now, nor have they ever been, even as "Goth" as Play Dead, Theatre Of Hate, or Killing Joke; all of whom (lest there be any misunderstanding of this vital point at this crucual juncture) were not fuckin' Goth!

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 13:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Dave Vanian and Play Dead both featured proeminently on a Cleopatra comp entitled "The Whip", which was as goth as they came

― The Emancipation of Baaderonixx (KERERU 4 LIFE!) (Fabfunk), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 13:44 (twenty-one years ago)

It's interesting that "punk" as a label, when punk was happening as a fairly mainstream teenage thing (my era 1977-1984), was a very inclusive label among fans

This is OTM as I remember it. I certainly would have considered Siouxsie and the Banshees punk at the time, along with a lot of bands now labeled postpunk. I don't think I even heard the "goth" label until I was in college, or maybe after that.

and anyone who wasn't part of the corporate 70s dinosaur scene was associated with "punk".

I don't think I'd go that far (think for example of some more underground prog. rock bands), but it may be close to the truth.

― RS (Catalino) LaRue (RSLaRue), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 13:49 (twenty-one years ago)

"Dave Vanian and Play Dead both featured proeminently on a Cleopatra comp entitled "The Whip", which was as goth as they came"

They do? Oh no! And here I've been, following The Damned for the last 28 years, in the mistaken belief that they were a Punk band. How can I have been so stupid?

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 14:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah well, the Sisters started out covering the Stooges and sounding rather punk, but at some point you have to consider the evidences, no?

― The Emancipation of Baaderonixx (KERERU 4 LIFE!) (Fabfunk), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 14:21 (twenty-one years ago)

When did you last see The Damned?

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 14:23 (twenty-one years ago)

How can there be talk about goth (or 'labelled as goth') bands with sax and no mention of *Bauhaus* (and what came after) ya crazy folks? Daniel Ash has always played sax!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 14:25 (twenty-one years ago)

I haven't. And I'm not really arguing that The Damned were goth. Same with the Cocteaus or the Cure. Forget about it, honestly.
But then we don't have much to talk about, do we?

― The Emancipation of Baaderonixx (KERERU 4 LIFE!) (Fabfunk), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 14:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Nico - Chelsea Girls

If that doesn't count as Goth, then it was probably some Bauhaus record.

― diedre mousedropping and a quarter (Dave225), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 14:33 (twenty-one years ago)

I'd say the Damned went through a goth phase. (circa Phantasmagoria, obv.) That doesn't make them a goth band, tho'.

This is really silly and pointless at the end of the day, isn't it.

Still...Killing Joke.....

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 15:49 (twenty-one years ago)

NOT GOTHS!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 15:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Alex in "I will have the last word on Killing Joke" shockah! :-)

― aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 18:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh I missed a fun thread.

To answer the original question - "Temple Of Love" 12" single was the first Goth record I liked. My definition of Goth for the purposes of answering that question was "What Gerry decides is Goth".

There certainly was a 'movement' of sorts around the Batcave types in London. It wasn't called Goth at the time but that's what they were moving towards. Andi Sex Gang once approaced Nick Cave with a proposition to join "The Movement" and was promptly told to fuck off, and rightly so.

As aldo says, bands like Joy Division and The Cocteaus were lumped in with Goths because they were bands that Goths liked. Goths liked Killing Joke.

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 08:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Goths are funny.

― The Emancipation of Baaderonixx (KERERU 4 LIFE!) (Fabfunk), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 08:45 (twenty-one years ago)

And they usually like Marc Almond and Dead Can Dance

― The Emancipation of Baaderonixx (KERERU 4 LIFE!) (Fabfunk), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 08:46 (twenty-one years ago)

"Dark Entries"

― Nic de Teardrop (Nicholas), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 09:03 (twenty-one years ago)

No love for the Cult?

― flowersdie (flowersdie), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 11:41 (twenty-one years ago)

I used to love The (Southern (Death)) Cult; but imo they got progresively worse as their name got progressively shorter and by about 1986 they were complete pants.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 11:48 (twenty-one years ago)

In fact, the Cult are a great example of a band that got progressively worse with every record, from Day One.
-- aldo_cowpat (aldo.cowpa...), September 10th, 2004 11:52 AM. (aldo_cowpat)
and that's saying something because they were fucking rubbish to begin with
-- stelfox (...), September 10th, 2004 11:55 AM.
IIRC "She Sells Sanctuary" actually represents the precise moment after which everything The Cult released suddenly stopped being fantastic and became shit (my memory's telling me that it came out after "Go West", "Spiritwalker", The Dreamtime and Dreamtime Live At The Lyceum albums (I was at the gig when they recorded that!) and "Resurrection Joe" but before "Rain").
-- Stewart Osborne (stewart.osborn...), September 10th, 2004 12:20 PM. (Stewart Osborne)
Stuart, your timeline is correct.

-- aldo_cowpat (aldo.cowpa...), September 10th, 2004 12:22 PM. (aldo_cowpat)

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 12:15 (twenty-one years ago)

See? I've said almost exactly the same thing on two separate occasions more than 8 months apart - so I must be right.... mustn't I?

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 12:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Well I still agree with us.

― aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 12:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh what a tangled web we weave...

― The Silent Disco of Glastonbury (Bimble...), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 14:15 (twenty-one years ago)

were new order goths who "saw the light" and changed their goth-y ways?!?

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 14:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Good lord no.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 14:29 (twenty-one years ago)

While it's true that the Cult did sorta peak with the Love album, I do love their faux-metal stuff, specifically Electric (where it was obvious that it was all a big joke) and Sonic Temple (where it absolutely wasn't). Ceremony was flatly indefensible. "The Witch" from the Cool World soundtrack (which originally sampled Killing Joke's "Requiem"....by the way, Killing Joke are not Goths) was FUCKING BRILLIANT. There were a couple of decent tracks on the eponymous album (with the goat on the cover...notably "Star"), but ultimatley it was al over. That last album....I can't even remember the title....was entirely forgettable.

Ian Astbury is making Cult-appreciation EXCEPTIONALLY difficult with his latest Doors shenanigans.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 21:55 (twenty-one years ago)

does goth actually exist as a genre, then?

― latebloomer: B Minus Time Traveler (latebloomer), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 22:15 (twenty-one years ago)

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