What's the best Genesis album?

It's called Abacab.

But my favorite is probably Selling England...

I like "Seconds Out" quite a bit as well.

I don't mind Trick of the Tail or Wind and Wuthering, but...anyway, "Battle of Epping Forest" and "Firth of Fifth" are the two best Genesis tracks, I'd say. I guess maybe I'll get a CD of Lamb Lies Down and give it a whirl

That's the prob with most of the Genesis albums IMO, tracks that are alright, but just somehow spoil the shape. On Trespass it's "The Knife" - good as it is, it really belongs on its own, cos it's closer to Nursery Cryme than the sound on the rest of that album. On Nursery Cryme itself, it's Fountain of Salmacis - bad idea to finish a Victorian Gothic ghost story of an album with an overlong Greek myth. Even The Lamb seems to lose impetus on Side 4.

Maybe the folks arguing for the poppier albums are onto something, tho in that case I'd have Duke any day.

I could be wrong though

I am dating myself a little bit, but in my recollection, Phl solo got huge (in the US) when "In the Air" tonight was used on Miami Vice. And that gave momentum to Genesis (the yellow album). They may have had hits, even big ones, before that but -- as Alfred notes -- that's what made them huge.

I don't think "Me And Sarah Jane" was a single, but I agree its a great tune. "Like It Or Not" was another good one from Abacab. I also remember digging one of the studio tunes from 3 Sides Live - "You Might Recall" it was.

I think I have to give the album nod to the Lamb. It has the best collection of tunes for me - title track, Back in NYC, In the Cage, Grand Parade, etc. I would love to have seen that tour!

I find it sounds more distinct, with better stereo separation and more treble, than their earlier work.

Musically, I prefer the best of the Gabriel era work, but I still think "Trick..." and "Wind...." are the ones that sound best.

I've never heard a whole album by the quintet, but I have a hard time accepting that anything they did could be as thrilling as Queen II. Jesus, the intro to "Ogre Battle" !!

"Misunderstanding" hit top 20 before that, so the later success wasn't completely by surprise.

perhaps one should not presume that anyone that doesn't do backflips for the era one likes the most has not heard a particular comp. one would seem condescending if one was to do so.

perhaps one should not presume that anyone that doesn't do backflips for the artist iteration one likes the most has not heard a particular comp. one would seem condescending if one was to do so.

"The Musical Box"?

his worst is his crap Keef pantomime on "I Can't Dance."

not one person on this Earth would rather hear "Calling All Stations" from '97 than those aforementioned orphaned tunes.

or are you going to defend that tune, GH?

Couple that with Hogweed and Seven Stones, and The Musical Box without the self-conscious middle bit, and you've got a magic run of songs.

Foxtrot hurts my brain. Apocalypse 9/8 sounds like primary school kids learning how to play their instruments.

The Lamb, for me. Although I should give the other albums a chance.

So, all of the post Gabriel shit: DEFEND IT! Wind & Wuthering, Trick of the Tale... I asked Genesis fans about them, and they all say they are not bad but pale in comparison to everything The Lamb and before... and one friend said that Duke was the last Genesis album he didn't want to throw against the wall.

I think it is so good, with the fluid running synth lead etc, how it sets up the really tender "play me my song" return, which in turn sets up the huge, monolithic closing. Probably my favorite Genesis song.

(That's a joke, son.)

This sounds like praise!

W&W and Trick of the Tail are both pretty badass albums with few weak spots and are more 'economic' with regards to having none of Gabriel's penchant for running amuck lyrically (at the time), no impenetrable concepts and over-elaborate costumes...just solid writing and performances. Also, dare I say, Collins does a fantastic job as both drummer and vocalist.

He usually does. And Genesis would have been a lasting quality band had he stuck to that, and kept himself away from involving too much in the songwriting.

Ambition and indulgence should never be edited. Anyway, Tony Banks was always there, and was just as much of the musical genius Gabriel was. He sadly has lost it more than Gabriel has though.

Can't...quite...find...joke...

Uh, Geir...pretty much anything would have been a huge leap in the right direction from "We Can't Dance".

And honestly, Ray "Stiltskin" Wilson was a better singer than Phil Collins. Then again, you could select anyone off the street and nine times out of ten, they'd be better than Phil Collins.

Can I just get a gut check here - do you people like Wind and Wuthering, and if so, why? Why do so many progheads love this incredibly boring album? Or am I just not listening close enough?

spent like a month last year getting acquainted with duke, abacab and the self-titled record all of which are AWESOME

Foxtrot.

wind & wuthering is (a) mostly great (b) the perfect album to play on a cold dry windy morning

Foxtrot

trespass was killer when i heard it first, selling england by the pound was even greater especially that part in teh battle of epping forest where the music takes off, where it reaches this metaphysical plateau. this moment of bliss, which should last forever. but in the end nursery cryme is the one, i think. the lyric sheet with all those drawings. so english, so strange, so cruel.

Selling England by the Pound. Before that I only really love one song per album ("Stagnation," "The Musical Box," "Supper's Ready").

spent like a month last year getting acquainted with duke, abacab and the self-titled record all of which are AWESOME

cosign, this was a month well-spent

I think I was very wrong about Wind & Wuthering, which is IMO not as good as Trick of the Tail but I don't find it boring or aimless any more.

duke btw

Your Own Special Way is beyond pukey and the irredeemable ruination of that album imo

W&W i mean. Still have a soft spot for Duke though, first Genesis record I bought

That was Genesis in the era when they would regularly appear in lists of footballers' favourite music alongside the Police and jazz funk.

Foxtrot > A Trick of the Tail > Duke > Selling England by the Pound > Nursery Cryme > Invisible Touch > And Then There Were Three > Wind & Wuthering > The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway > Abacab > Trespass > Genesis > We Can't Dance > Calling All Stations > From Genesis to Revelation

*cracks knuckles* ok here we go

abacab
wind & wuthering
the lamb lies down on broadway
duke
a trick of the tail
foxtrot
nursery cryme
genesis
selling england by the pound
and then there were three
invisible touch
trespass
we can't dance

i feel like i'm underrating selling/attwt/invisible touch at the end there but i basically love all of those records except trespass (which is fine) and we can't dance (which is half great half horrible)

wau @ Foxtrot so high.

man this would be so difficult, though I'm pretty sure Selling England is #1 and Calling all Stations is at the end of the list

The first live one. Docked one point for leaving off Supper's Ready.

wau @ Foxtrot so high.

― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, July 7, 2017 1:23 PM (thirty-three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it's all great. ppl who think "time table" is weak need to get right

'Time Table' is one of my favourites.

ecstatic you two have kissed and made up

Man, the first part of 'Mad Man Moon' is so beautiful.

first side of trick is the best shit on earth

and then side two has the title track and the percussion-tastic 'Los Endos' ...

Hi, Brad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AtL_Ko2KNQ

Of the ones I listen to:
Lamb >> Selling England By the Pound > Nursery Cryme = Foxtrot

"home by the sea" is the fuckin best

The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway
Selling England by the Pound
Foxtrot
Wind & Wuthering
A Trick of the Tail
Nursery Cryme
Abacab
and my familiarity with the albums gets hazy after that. I will listen to everything if there's a poll coming up.

The Gabriel albums captured my heart at a formative age so I can't really be objective about them.

The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway is often cited as the pinnacle of early Genesis, but I'm not really convinced that it is. While it certainly contains more music than any other Genesis studio album, there's portions of The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway that strike me as being a bit dull, and the band seem to be lacking in energy throughout - consequently, the whole thing ends up being a bit of a slog for me, even though the album has several highlights. I find the plot of the record to be a bit silly, too. A Trick of the Tail, although it captures a band in crisis due to their lead vocalist leaving, also captures a band that are re-energised and are into what they're doing.

First half of Lamb is great, second half more ... nebulous.

i love basically every part of the lamb

i'll acknowledge that the first half is basically perfect and that the second half is maybe a little more unsolid but that's as far as i'll go

The plot's no sillier than Supper's Ready, Battle of Epping Forest, other tracks where Peter is the main lyricist. I love the music and so embrace the goofiness.

I do think including the prose version of the story was a bad idea though.

I can ignore the lyrics on 'Supper's Ready' completely, but 'The Battle of Epping Forest', which has some nice musical parts, is far from my favourite Genesis epic.

The relative lack of energy (the title track, for example, has always felt like it needs to be a touch faster and more aggressive) and a little too much meandering padding are bigger issues for me on The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway than the lyrics, fwiw.

i love basically every part of the lamb

^^^^

Will admit to not even knowing what the plot is, despite having listened to this many times. A road trip favourite for me.

invisible touch is the best genesis album. not a single bad song on it.

It's about Peter Gabriel wishing Bob Fosse had directed him on stage singing "On Broadway."

xpost

alfred otm

essentially the wall of death falls over new york city and rael meets some wacky characters and then a bird steals his penis iirc

I only really listen to Nursery Cryme and Trespass, think that caught them at a great juncture. & the live sets from around teh time.
& then disown the rest of their catalogue.
Just got a lotof their early BBC stuff from a Demonoid torrent.
But picked up the 2008 remasters when they happened, also Foxtrot which I didn't get into much.

2008 remasters are controversial. Some vocals/instruments mixed down, some mixed way up, iirc.

Sometimes the first half of "Lamb" is my favorite, sometimes "Abacab," sometimes sometimes "Trick of the Tail," sometimes even "Invisible Touch," but never s/t and rarely "Duke" or "And then ..." (for some reason). Usually "Selling England" is my favorite. At the very least, I think "Dancing with the Moonlit Knight" is the band's playing apex, and Peter's lyrical peak (in Genesis) as well. Sort of ... proto Morrissey?

the remasters are also remixes which is why they're controversial beyond the "steve hoffman forum" sense

duke
a trick of the tail
invisible touch
genesis
and then there were three
foxtrot
abacab
three sides live
selling england by the pound
the lamb lies down on broadway
nursery cryme
wind & wuthering

I think you could guess which Genesis era I grew up in from that list. their prog back catalogue was my first deep dive into an artist, but the gabriel albums never spoke to me as much.
I admit to never listening to anything after invisible touch, and I'm not really familiar with anything before Nursery Cryme, so my list is truncated on each side.

On "Selling" and "Lamb" in particular, even "Trick" and "Wind," I find it remarkable how well Phil's drums in particular are recorded. They just sound great. They always do, too, especially ironic for a guy who helped invent the sound of '80s drums.

Until I read his book I never knew much about his pre-Genesis stuff. Like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzBYib_Pko8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwG2lvssEzo

Or

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPOqAHN4T9c
^written and sung by Phil c. 1968

Like a few others here on ILM, i've been running up-and-down their catalog -- seems like i've been listening to nothing else for the last week. Lots of treats buoyed on the back of both decades of reflection and fresh ears. Side note; why "Squonk" wasn't a single, i'll never understand; the title alone?

Faves in two camps:

Trespass from Gabriel-era
Duke from Collins-era

This is lovely. Adore the ToTT and WaW period Genesis. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5Y1L2aFt8M&t=0s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wraejmyAK5w

Let's try that again: https://youtu.be/x5Y1L2aFt8M

is it weird of me to say that i don't think of genesis as an album band? they sounded great when everything came together, but a lot of the time it didn't.

i recall reading a story from the first half of the 20th century that reminded me of the pre-"supper's ready" story printed on the inside of "live". it was only a couple weeks ago but i don't remember what it was exactly. sometimes i think peter gabriel's song introductions were the best part of his era of genesis. few things are more painful than listening to phil collins trying to replicate that style on the '76 tour.

I saw The Musical Box a couple of years ago, and not only were they awesome (at the time they had a balding left-handed drummer who even sang like Phil!), but their singer nailed replicating the weird Pete intros.

This one has the Phil ringer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmLLs4EtMAA

Here's a more recent lineup doing all of "Lamb." Apparently Genesis are fans, and lent them their old slides and props:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlX4moDYEmA

Here's a bit of Phil sitting in. He said it was a struggle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWZT0EHKjCk

wind and wuthering
a trick of the tail
and then there were three
selling england by the pound
the lamb...
foxtrot
nursery cryme
duke

no time for the rest...

The only track I'd take off of The Lamb is Ravine, which does feel like a pointless meander at that point in the album. The other instrumentals are solid.

There's a bunch of live Waiting Rooms on Youtube. Genesis would have made a killer krautrock band.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lmeyb8bX4Uo

there's a great 12-minute rehearsal jam on "fly on a windshield" floating around out there (not on youtube that i can find or i'd link it). kind of reminds me of embryo for whatever reason.

I don't really know their discography very well, but I don't anything is going to top Foxtrot for me, so that's probably why. Supper's Ready has the cutest lyrics of all time.

human bacon

tangent - you used to write on epinions?

actually love Ravine. got fond memories of getting the double Lamb CD and skipping to try and hear The Light Dies Down the second time I played it and getting Ravine by mistake and it scaring the crap out of me. The one album they did where there's this actual undeniable undercurrent of menace to it, simliar to The White Album

yeah i love "ravine" too. lot of harrowing empty space in the second half of the lamb

as much as I enjoy the post-Gabriel era(s), the creepy nastiness which peaked on the Lamb all but disappeared

Ravine gives Peter time to change out of the Slipperman costume I guess.

The menace made it onto Gabriel's first few solo albums. Moribund the Burgermeister is pretty Lamb-like, and there's scary shit on Melt and Security — especially in the German, which gives something like Not One of Us a vaguely fascist undertone. It was all gone, though, by So, and I don't think he's ever recaptured it. Most of Up is just kind of lamely overwrought.

Will have to give the german versions a listen but had never previously felt the need to. Always found the first two solo albums a bit lacking

"This is the Picture" (and "We Do What We're Told" - originally intended for PG3?) is sort of menacing, "Mercy Street" is definitely spooky.

On "Selling" and "Lamb" in particular, even "Trick" and "Wind," I find it remarkable how well Phil's drums in particular are recorded. They just sound great.

The drums on A Trick of the Tail sound incredible - in fact of all the Genesis records, that's my favourite sounding of them all - particularly the remaster. Duke comes very close, though.

I don't really like the way The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway sounds... it's a bit muffled and monochromatic, I think.

Trying to give And Then There Were Three a serious shot, but I can't really get into the songwriting on that album. Follow You Follow Me has a simplicity and freshness.

invisible touch is the best genesis album. not a single bad song on it.

― Mr. Snrub, Saturday, July 8, 2017 1:31 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I agree that there's not a single bad song on it!

First Response Hall of Fame: This is the POLL We Live In: Genesis - Invisible Touch

Some dude's "bald Thriller" comment re: Invisible Touch couldn't have been more otm, imo!

The title track, 'Land of Confusion', 'Domino' and 'Throwing It All Away' ... superb.

When it comes to a sense of menace Genesis stuff, no moment on Lamb compares to the first time I saw the video to 'Mama' ...

"back in nyc" is menacing af

Give the dude credit, he had good taste in covers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubYDPqi6ht4

I always forget how much I enjoy the glassy monumentalism of Duke and (to a lesser extent) And Then There Were Three.

With 'Duke' in particular it might in part be that it reminds me (in a reverse-influence sense) of Marillion's 'Clutching At Straws'.

But tonight it occurred to me that ATTWT's 'Down And Out' reminds me of my beloved first Shy Child album!

Most of my listening this week has been Genesis albums. I've known the Gabriel era albums for years but A Trick Of The Tail is the only Collins one I've checked out before now. I'm surprised how much I've enjoyed these albums. Abacab and the self titled are the two that are standing out. Abacab is good all the way through apart from that obnoxious synth at the end of Dodo/Lurker. As others have said, the self titled is badly let down by Illegal Alien. It's actually quite a good tune but obviously so misguided in every other way. I think I'd still pick that album up if I saw it cheap as the rest of it is so good. It would just be like Iggy Pop's New Values where I pretend African Man doesn't exist. Interested to hear And Then There Were Three and Wind & Wuthering next. It's been really interesting following this thread as I get to know the albums.

Abacab is a patchy follow-up to Duke, IMO. I like the title track a lot, even though it probably doesn't deserve to be that long - and 'No Reply At All' would benefit by having the obnoxious horns removed from it. I generally love horn sections, but not on Genesis and Phil Collins records where they generally sound tacky. 'Who Dunnit?' is crap, and the epics aren't particularly memorable.

I love how Abacab sounds like Genesis running into Simple Minds and The Teardrop Explodes in a crowded thoroughfare.

(Specifically referencing those bands' contemporaneous material there)

Abacab is a patchy follow-up to Duke, IMO

it's not

and 'No Reply At All' would benefit by having the obnoxious horns removed from it

god the next sentence was even worse

imo the fenix horns pretty much never sound tacky, they act as sharp punctuation wherever they're employed?

I love how Abacab sounds like Genesis running into Simple Minds and The Teardrop Explodes in a crowded thoroughfare.

― Tim F, Wednesday, July 12, 2017 9:20 PM (eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This is indeed what it sounds like, but the end result isn't as great as that description sounds because the material isn't quite there, whereas on Duke not only did they manage to incorporate elements of New Wave into their sound successfully, but they managed to balance it with their progressive tendencies and they managed to write a set of wall-to-wall very good to great material, powerfully played and impeccably produced.

It has its highlights, but it's definitely a weaker Genesis record.

Relistened to "Invisible Touch" today after reading all the reappraisals on the IT thread and...yikes. Outside of "Tonight..." I can'tt get with its über-mid-80s digi-production at all. I remembered that's when I had stopped caring.

The "uber-mid '80s digi-production" is part of the reason I like the album so much - another reason is that there's not a dud track on it!

Now that the connection has occurred to me I am very curious to know what a Brab thinks of Sons and Fascination.

sympathetic to capitaine jay vee's experience of invisible touch; the other day i was listening to it and was kinda annoyed at the digital space in which the songs unfold bc it made the more atmospheric sections of songs sound thin and distant. weirdly this was most pronounced during "tonight..." could've just been my mood at the time as obv i love ultra-synthetic production, unreal crystalline approximations of "real" instruments revolving coldly in an artificial environment 4ever, that's the stuff

i have never heard a simple minds record tim

xpost:

A connection between Genesis and Simple Minds occurred to me before, but weirdly the other way around - the bassline to 'In Trance As Mission' has always reminded me of the riff of the 'Apocalypse' section of 'Supper's Ready' ... I wonder if the early Minds were Gabriel-era Genesis fans?

but that'll change soon! xp

OMG Brad it must!

Given SM got Steve Hillage to produce S&F I wouldn't be surprised if they were British prog fans more generally.

I look forward to Brad being the only person on ILM to like 'Belfast Child' ...

I am a huge fan of slick '80s production in many cases ("Cupid & Psyche 85", Brian Ferry's solo stuff of the decade, anything ZTT/ Trevor Horn, etc). but I'm with ToddBonzalez re: the airless digital space the songs exist in here. Plus there's a pronounced nasal shrillness to Phil's voice on this album that grates.

I don't really notice any big difference in Phil's voice on this album, except that he was a far more accomplished singer by that point and had better control over his voice!

The endless plain of digispace + Collins' decision to shout = an often grating experience. It ruins "Tonight, Tonight Tonight" and "Anything She Does" for me.

lol "plane"

'Tonight, Tonight, Tonight' is perfect, IMO. Can't fault Collins' passionate vocal performance on that at all.

"the endless plane of digispace" is my favorite john cale song

that's what I had in mind

Tonight x 3's rain of pain falls on an endless plain

I recall being profoundly disappointed with abacab upon its release and I still tend to value the post-Duke material much less than what came earlier. But wow, I wasn't aware of the resistance they faced on their 1981 tour:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8d3-CKPupM

I wonder if the early Minds were Gabriel-era Genesis fans

they were never shy about it either
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n760wQHFVOo&t=2m14s
2m14s

that may have not worked: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n760wQHFVOo

is there a reason why The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway is not on Spotify but everything else is?

Yeah, it's a bit strange how Genesis fans reacted badly to the band trying different things, whereas Rush had no problem bringing their audience with them. But then from '81-'85 Rush were putting out far better material.

whereas Rush had no problem bringing their audience with them

idk, it's been a while since i watched the rush doc but this is not my impression of how it went down

They might have lost a few fans who disliked their move from hard rock to progressive rock, or disliked the shorter songs and New Wave elements or disliked stuff like Hold Your Fire, but generally Rush were always perceived as a band that, no matter what they did, they did it with their integrity fully intact and cultivated a very dedicated fanbase who would follow them no matter what.

With Genesis, the audience is far more divided.

Genesis lost their original lead singer/songwriter and lead guitarist. Those are pretty drastic changes.

If anything, I feel like there is more continuity between Gabriel-era Genesis and the early solo Gabriel albums than between the Gabriel era and the Collins era. Rush always sounded like Lee, Lifeson, and Peart.

I've tried so hard to love let alone like Simple Minds beyond "New Gold Dream" and "Glittering Prize." Jim Kerr is the wrong kind of pompous, with colleagues to match.

Peter Gabriel was never the "lead" songwriter or driving force at any point... this is one of the reasons why he left! The only LP where all the lyrics are his is on Lamb ... before that, he would mostly sing what he was given by Mike and Tony, and it was similar for Collins on the post-Gabriel albums. Even later on when Phil started writing more it was a couple of tracks at best.

Rush sales remained steady (they were automatic platinum for much of the eighties) but you should see the band's faces in recent years as they've learned that millions of fans love if not prefer New World Man Rush. I'm not sure even the band loved the synths.

It's worth noting also that Hackett also left because Genesis was the Banks'n'Rutherford show... always was!

Rush sales remained steady (they were automatic platinum for much of the eighties) but you should see the band's faces in recent years as they've learned that millions of fans love if not prefer New World Man Rush. I'm not sure even the band loved the synths.

― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, July 13, 2017 6:33 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I'm sure they did, or they wouldn't have done it.

seeing Rush twice in the 2000s felt like, whatever happened at the time, any old divides have long since healed, and everything as new wavey as "Time Stand Still" as proggy as "Cygnus X-1" or as meat and potatoes 70s hard rock as "Fly by Night" or "Working Man" all go down great with the multi-generational crowd

was my impression that Lifeson was a bit of a holdout on the synths and that direction was more Geddy and Peart, but I think that's just he felt like his role was being marginalized

I'm sure they did, or they wouldn't have done it.

― The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican),

Not necessarily. Market accommodations. I'm not saying it was the only reason, and if it were the only reason the music is nevertheless terrific.

Admittedly, I listen to Lamb the most but you have to acknowledge that a lead singer and lead guitarist are pretty important in defining a rock band's sound.xps

Rush went deeper into synths than they would have needed to in order to accommodate the early 80s rock market, surely. I got the impression that Lee was really intense and passionate about synths?

xxpost:

It wasn't market accomodations - they were listening to The Police, Ultravox etc., liked what they heard and made music influenced by what they were hearing - y'know, like musicians do.

Alfred I think you are wrong, Geddy was super into the Taurus pedals...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8uWrP1uD9U

But it's not a binary. Musicians have complex motives. Synthesizers and short songs were popular, and The Police were making music they like. Of course Rush would say, "Hmm, let's give it a go."

But I give up.

Admittedly, I listen to Lamb the most but you have to acknowledge that a lead singer and lead guitarist are pretty important in defining a rock band's sound.xps
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Thursday, July 13, 2017 6:41 PM (three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Gabriel has an immediately identifiable voice, but Collins is as close as you can get to Gabriel vocally without actually being Gabriel that it's not much of an issue, really. Gabriel blossomed creatively in his solo career, but in Genesis he wasn't the driving force at all - 'Watcher of the Skies' would have turned out near enough the same if Phil had sung it.

In Genesis's case, the departure of key members at least provides a symbolic basis for drawing battle lines. It gives an easy shorthand for naming the different eras and stating one's preferences. That might account for the appearance of a rift, though it's hard to estimate actual numbers here, i.e. how much of the early fanbase dropped off. I know my mom and uncle kept buying the albums.

The hilarious thing about Soto's comments, re: Rush and synths is that... well, he does realise Rush were using 'em as far back as 2112, right? And they feature heavily on A Farewell to Kings and Hemispheres, too. Bizarre for a band that "don't like synths" and are only using 'em to sell records...

I actually think the first glimmers of new wave/post punk in Rush musically begins really prior to their embrace of synths with Hemispheres, like the chiming guitar figure around the minute mark in La Villa Strangiato, the chorus of Circumstances, quite a bit of the early section of Cygnus X-1: Book II: Hemispheres...

Lifeson is switching to a more chorus, Roland-y type guitar tone and there's an angularity (don't shoot me for using that word) to some of the riffs that seems influenced by new music coming out. Though they are still working primarily in "70s Rush" mode, it feels transitional.

Which is to say this is prior to the first Police album, not to say the Police didn't end up being a big influence but they were moving out of the 70s mode already

The hilarious thing about Soto's comments, re: Rush and synths is that... well, he does realise Rush were using 'em as far back as 2112, right? And they feature heavily on A Farewell to Kings and Hemispheres, too. Bizarre for a band that "don't like synths" and are only using 'em to sell records...

Oh I'm aware. Rush were like Queen that way circa The Game. And I hear things on Hemipsheres that presage what was to come.

Well, to be clear, if you watch the documentary from 2010 or 2011 the band still looks as if they have to mind that they eschewed the prog starting in 1981 (I don't think they did, as any casual listen to "Middletown Dreams" shows). Call it a signal to the older fans (whom I know) who went along with the synths because it was Rush and the eighties but sure weren't happy about it.

xpost:

Yeah, I absolutely agree with that, and it goes a long way towards explaining why it's my go-to Rush album!

Rush gave up on 20 minute sides after Hemispheres but the prog elements in their sound didn't end there, or after 1981 for that matter...

Tbf, I think I'm fairly unusual in only listening to Gabriel-era Genesis (although I like a couple of Collins-led singles) and I do know people who only listen to certain eras of Rush.

I find it very difficult to believe you don't listen to A Trick of the Tail or Wind & Wuthering, both of which prove that Genesis was the Banks'n'Rutherford Show as much as Duke proves that Hackett wasn't really that essential either.

Well, they certainly become less of a guitar band. Literally zero notable guitar leads after Hackett leaves, for better or for worse (often for better!)

Lifeson had been moving toward that Andy Summers style pretty early on the '80s, and certainly with "Permanent Waves" a simplicity (for lack of a better word) and general Police-iness has entered the scene. Lifeson's more atmospheric chords sat well with the infusion of synths. With "Grace Under Pressure," though, Geddy and Neil pushed the electronics much farther, with synths, Simmons pads, etc., and Lifeson's playing got a little simpler as well, by necessity. By "Power Windows," my understanding is that a lot of that album was sequenced (in the synth sense) before Alex really got involved, and he had to struggle to find places for his guitar (which I find funny, since I love the guitar on that record). "Hold Your Fire" is more of that, and while "Presto" pares down the electronics, it pares down everything else, too; it's a pretty spare record. By "Roll the Bones" I think Alex was bristling at being locked in to all the synths and programming, and I remember "Counterparts" being hyped as a return to guitars, and reading Alex interviews where he expressed his excitement at being album to play riffs again. Of course, as always that isn't totally the case, but it's not a coincidence that the last couple of albums are probably the band's hardest, and most guitar-centric, since the '70s.

I found this, though:

Geddy Lee: My love of keyboards – I guess you could call it an obsession – reached its peak on Power Windows.

Alex Lifeson: Keyboards were the new thing, so there was this attitude: ‘Let’s just push them up, they sound big and they sound cool.’

Geddy Lee: We would get caught up in the making of an album, and then maybe after it was done Alex would hear it with fresh ears, he’d be like, ‘Hmm, maybe that was too much keyboards.’ Every so often it would come up in conversation between us.

Alex Lifeson: I did see the bigger picture: I knew we were going in a new direction and this was part of it. I don’t have anything against keyboards.

Geddy Lee: Power Windows was very much an album that was out of that whole Trevor Horn school. We brought in this synthesiser guy, Andy Richards, who really brought it up a notch in terms of quality and technology. This was very attractive to me, because it was new and fresh and exciting.

Alex Lifeson: For me, that record was a challenge. But I thought: go with it and it will all work out in the end. So I did that. I just saw that there was a shift in my role.

Geddy Lee: When you’re using that many keyboards, you’re taking up so much space on the record. Then the guitar has to fit around that. With a lot of the songs on Power Windows – songs like Grand Designs and Marathon – we had so many parts already done on keyboards that on previous records the guitar would have filled. So Alex had to figure out a way in. That’s really what it required of him.

Alex Lifeson: The guitar suffered in a lot of the mixes. That’s what bothered me more than anything. The bottom line was, I just thought that we needed to preserve the core of what the band is. It’s a three-piece.

Geddy Lee: Alex did play some great stuff on that record. Like on Mystic Rhythms. Without the guitar riff, that song doesn’t work. And I really like the sound of that album. I thought it was a really strong production. There are some great songs on that record. I like Middletown Dreams a lot – you know, every once in a while we write a good melody! Overall, I thought Power Windows was a great accomplishment for us. But maybe not so much on the couple of albums after that – Hold Your Fire and Presto. On those records the keyboards were still present, but not in so positive a way. That was making the case, once again, for realigning the sound…

I find it very difficult to believe you don't listen to A Trick of the Tail or Wind & Wuthering, both of which prove that Genesis was the Banks'n'Rutherford Show as much as Duke proves that Hackett wasn't really that essential either.

Lol that this is a difficult thing to believe.:)

I'll give them another try some time, though.

I've tried so hard to love let alone like Simple Minds beyond "New Gold Dream" and "Glittering Prize." Jim Kerr is the wrong kind of pompous, with colleagues to match.

― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 13 July 2017 18:31 (two hours ago) Permalink

I'm not sure I'd describe the early albums as remotely pompous!

Ha yeah, I'd say the pomposity happens after New Gold Dream, not before.

Once Upon a Time is one if the grosser arena sellouts.

(I'm aware that it's the consensus pick for the rot-setting-in album.

It's also stylistically about as far away from Reel to Real Cacophony as you can get!

Yeah the transformation of Simple Minds across its first seven albums is almost as extreme as from A Trick of the Tail to Invisible Touch.

I want to host a listening party where I take Alfred and Brad through the first six in chronological order. As with Genesis and Talk Talk the overall progression is fascinating.

It's probably even more extreme when you consider the first two albums - only released six months apart but it feels like there should have been three or four albums in between the two, such is the leap between the two!

this section of the wikipedia article on Once Upon a Time is kind of bathetic

Legacy[edit]

In 2008, Once Upon a Time was listed as the 864th greatest album of all time by the French retail chain Fnac.[8]

In 2013, "All the Things She Said" was featured on a radio station in Grand Theft Auto V, the fourth best-selling video game of all time (as of February 2017).

I'm listening to A Trick of the Tail again now, and fucking hell 'Squonk' is just so good.

There's a good anecdote on the Life in a Day Wikipedia about Kerr hearing Unknown Pleasures shortly after the first album came out and immediately realising they'd fucked up.

It's probably the one that generally gets rated the lowest of the first five records, but I really like Life in a Day! Sparkle in the Rain is the last one I'll go anywhere near, but it's far more tolerable than what came after.

Sparkle is alright, but that's when the vocals go a little bit Bono for the first time. Can tolerate the singles from Once Upon A Time but otherwise the quality just plummets to this sub-U2 wasteland.. I forget the name of that 'I Travel' rehash but it's absolutely putrid. And then came Street Fighting Years.

Genesis lost their original lead singer/songwriter and lead guitarist. Those are pretty drastic changes.

― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r)

way to piss off the "trespass" thread

Ha, well, you got me there. Really, as my list above shows, I just listen to the albums with Gabriel and Hackett.

Oh, i'm pissed; but not for that --it's this talk of Rush that makes me ill.

Never the twain.

Rush were the superior band, though, in terms of energy (no longer-than-they-need-to-be meandering 12 string guitar detours), playing/instrumental proficiency (Peart > Collins, obviously), production (even the early Rush LP's sound better than Trespass and Nursery Cryme), songwriting ('Turn it on Again' is excellent, but not as excellent as 'The Spirit of Radio' ... also '2112' and 'Cygnus X-1: Book II' are superior compositions to 'Supper's Ready'), lyricism ('Subdivisions' alone crushes anything Genesis came up with), adaptability (Rush absorbed new wave elements far more successfully) etc. I could go on and on...

I think I'd disagree on the songwriting, plus both Collins and Gabriel are better vocalists than Geddy Lee. I'd struggle to choose although I'm not a huge fan of either band - though I do really like both in places.

Yeah, Gabriel and Collins are both better singers and have better voices that are easier to listen to and Genesis probably sold more records, but overall Rush crush Genesis in every way.

(and I like Genesis)

but overall Rush crush Genesis in every way.

These kind of statements...

I mean - come on.

Both bands have made their share of good to great albums. What are you basing the crushing power of Rush on lol?

Ok - just saw your post upthread. Wow.

I think Genesis absorbed the New Wave ( and US r&b) influences so well they appeared like almost natural fits when it happened. Rush sounded awkward at times when incorporating New Wave elements.

I disagree, I think that the run of albums from Permanent Waves to Power Windows sound very natural and unforced in their adoption of New Wave styles.

Duke sounds natural and unforced too, but I can't say the same for Abacab and Genesis, particularly the former.

Rush blow after Signals; only drooling fan-boys would fail to see that Genesis have at least a half-dozen classic records where Rush have maybe two.

...and i like Rush

Genesis have 6 classics, whereas Rush have 8 - so there y'go, yet another level on which Rush annihilate Genesis.

i don't think any of the rush albums that absorb new wave are as consistent as duke, abacab, or even shapes

also peart is a terrible lyricist

xpost Not Moving Pictures or Permanent Waves or Signals? I disagree.

Peart > Collins, obviously

No way. They are very different drummers, but Peart is not "clearly" superior, unless you subscribe to the Peart-is-the-greatest-drummer-of-all-time stance. Collins and Peart are equally creative and talented, and for a time equally busy/chops-heavy. Still, not to bash on Peart at all (because he's awesome and I like Rush better than Genesis, too), but I couldn't imagine him filling all the stylistic roles Collins has, from Zep to Motown to fusion to ... I mean, it just goes on. Collins is like one of those great session drummers able to impart his own personality with each performance. And he grooves and swings, which Peart, for all his awesomeness, just doesn't do much of. Or need to do!

80-82 is my favourite era of Rush so I do think they win on the new wave front. That said I've never thought of Genesis as being particularly new wavy anyway bar a handful of songs - their '80s albums are quite eclectic but to me they lean more towards just straight MOR/rock. I guess there was a lot of overlap at that time.

Duke and Invisible Touch are the only two albums that could remotely compete with anything that Rush released 1980-1985. In terms of Rush's discography from the beginning up to 1985 and Genesis' discography in the same period, the Rush albums are relatively filler and fat-free.

@josh oh i was talking mostly about signals, grace under pressure, and power windows. signals is my fav rush record but even then i don't like it as much as duke. idk, maybe it's time to spend more time with the rush catalog lol

...and here i thought we could be friends. Eight classic Rush records... you're high (and Invisible Touch sux).

Josh; you are wise -- my arguments would be better expressed if filtered through your pen.

I find the idea that Peart doesn't "groove" or "swing" really funny and pretty much demonstrates a lack of knowledge about the guy's drumming. Of course, naturally, from a purely technical perspective alone Peart > Collins, but there's more to Peart's drumming than that. He was at his peak for longer too.

oy vey. Can there be a Genesis Vs Rush poll so we can go back to matters at hand? lol

xpost You are totally wrong about Peart. His parts are totally precise, totally arranged, totally deliberate and totally not spontaneous. And totally awesome. That's their brilliance! Even his solos are totally composed! Not a dig on him, just a very different style that does not demand groove or swing or whatever. Anyway, let's go to the tape:

Neil Peart does Buddy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT9333XiR4U

Phil Collins big band:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT5UslpgPUA

I mean, neither is playing the Village Vanguard.

Peart did stay at his peak longer, I'll give you that. But he worked really hard at that, too - taking lessons, reassessing/changing his technique - and it played a big role in his retirement.

Don't get me wrong, they're both great! But Neil Peart is perfect for Rush and only for Rush. Collins is far more versatile.

I mean, Collins doing his best Jaki here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXDrTZMVINo

Through-composing and arranging ones parts has nothing to do with ones ability to "swing" ...

Sure. But it does discredit an occasional looseness and spontaneity as an attribute. Peart is like a machine, which is what I love about him. Not a time-keeping machine, just a total wind-up do his thing machine.

It's a different discussion, but I've often wondered about certain rarified virtuosos, if they're so into their thing that that's all they can do. Again, that's not a dig at Peart at all. But I was really impressed several months ago coming across some video of Mike Portnoy playing the Beatles. Not that I like Portnoy's playing - I hate Dream Theatre - but I was just impressed he could set aside ego and do his best Ringo. Could a guitarist as prima facia virtuoso as, say, Steve Vai, even play a sloppy version of "Wild Thing?" Without doing his weedle-weedle? I saw a clip of Adrian Belew once - he's another guitarist who just does his thing - and he was talking about influences, and it was a bit like pulling teeth. The interviewer finally got him to concede Hendrix, and then it took another round of coaxing to get Belew to even minimally demonstrate some Hendrix-like licks.

Anyway, Peart's, yeah, through-composed approach to drums is (or was) essentially unique. That's what makes him special. But it's also what makes it so hard for me to compare him to other drummers.

Josh has it right -- Peart is a technician; adept, yes, but still a craftsman.

Sure. But it does discredit an occasional looseness and spontaneity as an attribute.

Rush were never about jamming/improvising and neither really were Genesis, but that doesn't mean they couldn't do it and of course being musicians of their calibre I'm sure they could. Basically, your argument boils down to "Collins is a better drummer because he's done more session work", and I disagree.

Peart > Bruford > Palmer > Collins > White

i might as well add to this clusterfuck by asserting that genesis vs. rush is not a great debate to me because i do not feel that Rush is prog qua prog anyway, they are a hard rock band with prog tendencies.

I can't articulate why but trust me I am absolutely right.

..and sh@kedown has it right as well

Yep, they were very much that from 1975-1977 ... but it highlights another strength Rush have over Genesis: they rocked more. Like I said earlier, no far-too-long meandering 12 string guitar detours.

Rush were never about jamming/improvising and neither really were Genesis

the majority of genesis songs were born out of collective jamming

they talk about this all the time

xxpost:

I mean, it's called progressive rock, so too right the rocking is important.

I see the bands as having different goals.

Rush also had a musical sense of humor that Genesis lacked.

I firmly come down on the Rush side of the debate. And I agree Rush isn't really a prog band. I just won't say Peart is a better drummer than Collins. The latter is (was) a virtuoso, but was so much more versatile. Peart is the best Rush drummer we will ever see, which is enough, but not everything. Each one of the most creative drummers ever, regardless.

Rush also had a musical sense of humor that Genesis lacked.

Which is also to say, Rush may or may not be prog, but they most certainly were never art-rock.

xxxpost:

It doesn't matter how the songs were born - I'm perfectly sure several Rush songs were written and arranged that way and I know for a fact that the majority of Genesis songs weren't born out of collective jamming - maybe after Duke, certainly not before. Genesis' finished songs were mostly as set in stone as Rush's were.

I'd argue that Rush in the '80s were art rock.

the new Gier

I know for a fact that the majority of Genesis songs weren't born out of collective jamming

the lamb was born out of jamming! they talk about it in the freakin' doc!

i mean improvisation is just fast composition blah blah blah

The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway =/= "the majority of Genesis songs"

phil also made the v labored point in the lamb reissue doc that the lamb and "hold on my heart" were the product of people playing in a room together and that that's the thing tying the whole genesis discography together but ok pls enjoy yourself turrican

LOL @ "the new Geir" ... Wasn't Gabriel-era Genesis Geir's favourite band? Doubt he would have stood for them being compared unfavourably to Rush. He woulda been wrong, but no surprises there.

Wow, Genesis played in a room together, fucking hell...

Anyway, I'm gonna give A Trick of the Tail another spin, I'm in the mood to listen to the not-at-all-arranged-or-composed-and-totally-improvised likes of 'Dance on a Volcano' and 'Los Endos', not to mention 'Mad Man Moon' and the title track, which I hear Banks improvised from beginning to end and then brought to the band...

For what it's worth, Gabriel-era Genesis had mystique. Rush never did. Not a criticism, and Genesis never rocked as hard.

More importantly, who wore the better '80s hair? Was it Phil's never ending mullet or Geddy's raccoon hat?

Josh has it right -- Peart is a technician; adept, yes, but still a craftsman.

Unless I misunderstand what you mean by "technician" and "craftsman", this is not at all what I get from Josh's posts. If anything, he seems to be arguing that Collins is superior as a technician while Peart is so idiosyncratic that he only really works with Rush.

I don't think Collins is a superior technician, but I do think they are equally good drummers. Just that Peart's playing is pretty much only suited to Rush, whereas Collins can and does play well in numerous situations. Like, I have no doubt Vinnie Colaiuta could play anything Peart could, and then some, but Peart could not play "Nightshift" by the Commodores. And I have no doubt that Jeff Porcaro could play Rush songs, too, but Peart could not play "Billie Jean." Or Steely Dan, for that matter. Not that he needs to! Peart is perfect for Rush, and exceptional. But it's sort of like a conversation I had with a friend about the Edge. I don't rate the Edge as a guitar player, but if I was forming a U2 tribute band he would absolutely be my first pick. (Except Peart is awesome, of course.)

Porcaro was a great drummer and everything, but... no!

Y'see, Peart has very rarely done any work outside of Rush, but this has little to do with how well Peart would cope outside of Rush, and more to do with... well, if you're in a band with musicians of the calibre as the three members of Rush, then anything else is going to feel like a step down.

and y'know, it's turned into a TS: Collins vs. Peart, but Lee also knocks Rutherford into a cocked hat bass-wise and Lifeson is superior to Hackett. Rush didn't have a keyboard player per se., but they could always be relied on to provide tasteful synthesiser sounds on their records. Some of the synth sounds on Abacab and Genesis are a bit obnoxious.

Lee also knocks Rutherford into a cocked hat bass-wise and Lifeson is superior to Hackett.

No argument on this front.

musicians of the calibre as the three members of Rush, then anything else is going to feel like a step down.

Ha, this is no doubt how someone like, say, John McLaughlin might think of a band like Rush! (No offense to Rush intended.)

yeah i mean i like Rush but like I don't know like there's like several thousand jazz dudes that would knock them on their butts

or like Rik Emmitt from Triumph just to site another Canadian 70s/80s power trio, I'd say he's on par with Lifeson

Seriously? Rik Emmett?

I like Triumph fine on the radio (and own Thunder Seven) but they seem like pretty straightforward AOR to me. I can't recall anything where they've done the ambitious things Rush did with rhythm and harmony; nor do I think Emmett showed a command of a couple of different rock guitar styles like Lifeson did.

Also, you had Banks/Collins/Rutherford as the three-piece Genesis line-up, but they required extra musicians in order to play live - not so with Rush, who could replicate everything with only the three of them. Geddy multitasking with synths, bass, pedals and vocals. That's talent.

Seriously? Rik Emmett?

― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Friday, July 14, 2017 2:14 PM (twenty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

haha ok i'm trolling but i find this whole conversation really bad IMO

Question: is Rush better or worse musicians than Booker T & the MGs?

Ha

Actually, come to think of it, Tony Banks is no Keith Emerson, Rick Wakeman or Patrick Moraz either. Far from that level, I'd say.

Turrican - wanna buy you a beer now; you're taste is yours alone. You can't really like Genesis if you don't appreciate Banks.

Josh/Sund4r -- Peart is like a cabinet maker, in the best sense.

...try Webb or Tate if you like drums

it is i think p widely accepted that beyond collins genesis were kinda not as qualified as other prog bands chops-wise but they had a unusually great pop sensibility

"tony banks is no rick wakeman" wow you're blowing my mind

Thank God

What happened to this thread.

xxpost:

Well, it's true - I'm unsure about them having an "unusally great" pop sensibility too, at least not until later on.

However, despite Genesis' limitations I think they made some great music together - and when it's great, it's really great.

Remember, I never once said that I hated Genesis, just that Rush were the superior band.

I'm unsure about them having an "unusally great" pop sensibility too

supper's ready is catchy as shit

anyway tim f otm

This thread is a prog epic. So many parts!

The message board version of "Gates Of Delirium "!

"X band is clearly superior to Y band on the following Z criteria" is the part of ILM that deservedly gets written out of official history.

X, the band, is clearly superior to Yes on the following Zomg! criteria.

^^^^ allowable

*cranks Moving Pictures*

One thing I was wondering last night was "who was heavily influenced by the post-prog Genesis albums?"

Duke is too prog I think to sound too much like stuff that isn't also at least partially steeped in prog traditions. As I said upthread it reminds me a lot of Marillion's Clutching at Straws, which I guess was an example of a band who had effectively been histrionic early-Genesis understudies grappling with the same question of how to transition to "proper" songwriting (rather than just "pop" per se), and is also the only Marillion album I listen to very much.

But surely there must have been many artists influenced by Abacab / Genesis / Invisible Touch? And I don't mean in a generic "no one got out of the 80s alive" sense, but as in, these particular albums (or maybe just one of them!) were a specific stylistic touchstone??

In some ways these three albums sound very, erm, "Canadian" to me? I wonder if Jane Siberry was a fan of this era of Genesis?

That's an interesting question and one that I've been pondering myself over the last couple of days - the most obvious answer I could come up with was Marillion, who you've mentioned as being heavily influenced by Gabriel-era Genesis, although I'm sure they continued to follow Genesis into the '80s. Ultimately, though, I don't know - a lot of what I'm thinking of that happened after Invisible Touch could be considered to be a reaction against it in some way.

I've always thought that Tears for Fears "Songs from the Big Chair" was very influenced by post prog Genesis. Especially at its, well, proggiest - Broken, Mother's Talk - but also how the drums, Strats and synthesizers sound.

God, "You Might Recall" from the Abacab sessions is insanely good. I don't know why I hadn't heard it before.

xpost oooh yes that's a good answer. Also just the general glassy grandeur of the songs is kind of positioned halfway between Duke and the rest of new pop.

Prog coincidence or no, credits on that TfF album include Jerry Marotta (Peter Gabriel's drummer) and Mel Collins (from King Crimson). Phil himself plays drums on the next album, on "Woman in Chains."

In some ways these three albums sound very, erm, "Canadian" to me? I wonder if Jane Siberry was a fan of this era of Genesis?

Ha, when you put it that way, I bet Gowan was into pop Genesis.

Indio's Big Harvest (also Canadian) has always reminded me of post-So Peter Gabriel. ha, I see that David Rhodes played with both.

But really, Tim, speaking as a Canadian, I have no idea WTF you mean

Songs from the Big Chair doesn't remind me of Genesis at all.

It's basically a mid '80s synthpop record with a bicycle pump shoved up its arse.

Vinnie Colaiuta could play anything Peart could, and then some, but Peart could not play "Nightshift" by the Commodores. And I have no doubt that Jeff Porcaro could play Rush songs, too, but Peart could not play "Billie Jean."

Josh, you complete me.

the "who had better chops" thing is always pretty silly but particularly silly in this case. I mean by any measure both these bands had a buttload of chops, more chops than any band would reasonably need and both used them to make some of the most ludicrous and awesome rock music, by no reasonable standard would you say well the problem with Rush or Genesis? just didn't have the chops, shoulda taken more lessons

Of course not, but Rush do have the superior chops.

Also the idea that Neil Peart couldn't play 'Billie Jean' is hilarious - of course he could, but it probably wouldn't interest him to do so.

Stop now

Of course not, but Rush do have the superior chops.

― The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, July 14, 2017 4:58 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

someone get me out of this loop

lol ok man like I just listen to Supper's Ready and all I can't think is man too bad Banks isn't even more of a wanker cuz this really could use Rick Wakeman jizzing Canterbury Tales analog synth all over the track like a frickin firehose

off this topic I think it's interesting, Abacab is 81 and Signals is 82, which at that point the two bands are as stylistically similar as they ever got, like there's not a million miles between Abacab's title track and Subdivisions.

one thing we never considered is a band that was influenced by post Gabriel Genesis might have been Rush themselves

Geddy picked Nursery Chryme as of his favorite albums of all time in The Quietus:

Genesis - Nursery Crime
Well I was a big fan of Genesis and Peter Gabriel. That was when I first discovered the notion of a 'concept' and that it could be an adventurous and lively place and not dull at all. It is a very playful and compelling record. I fell in love with the sound of it. I was totally entranced by it and wanted to know how they had done it. This is part of the roots of Rush. The creation of a flexible concept. The parallels are obvious.

Nah, Signals is just basically natural evolution from Moving Pictures... they were headed in that direction anyway.

It's well known they were influenced by Gabriel-era Genesis, though... Lifeson claims one of the lead guitar parts on 'The Fountain of Lamneth' is influenced by Hackett. It doesn't matter though, the took those influences and improved on them colossally.

Cosigning Tim's request to stop as I'm getting flashbacks to Grade 10

This discussion would have been over again if the Genesis hardcore hadn't protested so much... but I agree, let's suck it up and move on.

*again=ages ago.

Yes Turrucan it was definitely the.... Genesis faithful...that were belaboring the point

we're just like the stevie nicks coven that keeps ruining he fleetwood mac threads

Haha

To be fair Brad, suggesting that music doesn't necessarily resolve into a rigid hierarchy of objective greatness is pretty ruinous.

Ok, the moment that none of you have been waiting for..

The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway
Abacab
Genesis
Foxtrot
Duke
Selling England By The Pound
Trick Of The Trail
Wind & Wuthering

(bit of a drop in quality here)

Trespass
Nursery Crime
Then There Were Three
Invisible Touch
We Can't Dance

I haven't heard the first and last albums yet but nothing I've read has convinced me I should give them a shot.

A big thank you to the posters on here who've made me listen to the Collins era with an open mind. I was missing out on some really great music (especially Abacab).

I haven't heard the first and last albums yet but nothing I've read has convinced me I should give them a shot.

― kitchen person

the first album is really good if you're into '60s-era bee gees!

Stopped reading that list after the third entry, tbh.

Glad you found some new titles to enjoy. Turrican is toxic; pay him no mind -- i called him the new "Gier" but that's too good for his foul, over-bloated ego. Call him Turdican, or just Turd for short.

Ha!

this is so the most metal non-metal song evah

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTuJQL8GBqY

Yeah, I fucking love that track - both musically and lyrically. In fact, if we were to poll this band, all three of the Nursery Cryme epics would make it onto my ballot without hesitation.

I haven't heard it in many years but there are so many great parts I forgot about, listening to it now.

The swelling mellotron on the intro to 'The Fountain of Salmacis' is one of my favourite moments in a Genesis song ever, as well as the rocking out sections in 'The Musical Box' etc. etc. As much as I find Nursery Cryme, in a way, to be a bit of a dry run for Foxtrot, it's got some stunning moments on it. With a better production job it could have even been one of their best ever.

The early epics rock hardest on Genesis Live. Plus that album cover is one of my favourite rock images.

The shredding guitar solo bits on "Musical Box" feel a bit proto-Maiden to me.

Are Iron Maiden the Ramones of prog?

something something two-handed tapping something