Let's figure out Dream Theater.

Is there a big prog-metal following among goths? What else do they listen to? Are they into Queensryche and Rush as well?

- Nitsuh

To quote Carlton Banks: "Why don't we not and say we did?"

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000DD27.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Which means they should be a tribute band rather than HAVING tribute bands. ;-)

And I must say you are showing remarkable restraint, Eve! ;-)

Rush::Dream Theater as ????::Mars Volta

Kansas, maybe?

Rush: Dream Theater :: Mars Volta: something really sucktastic

Then again I like Rush and the Mars Volta.

Good lord.

For a second I thought you meant they covered a Chameleons tune and I almost died

if you think that they are ridiculous you must hear their copycats...like them:

http://www.mightyrhapsody.com/index.php

b-b-but what do you REALLY think of them Phil? Don't hold back now...

THANK YOU.

BTW how are McLaughlin's collaborations with U. Srinivas (whom I like a lot)?

He *really* bugs me, and not just in the context of Yes. I'm glad he left the Strawbs when he did.

Ned - you can hate me now.

While there are definite moments of cheeze, there are some parts that were better than expected. The keyboard player doing all that wack Danny Elfman knicked stuff and the prissy vocalist bring the whole thing really down. All they need is Jon Lord and Ronnie James Dio and this could be a OK band.

Shakti is freaking insane, especially those high speed unison lines they get going.

A few weeks back, I picked up RTF's Romantic Warrior out of a used bin. I never had that one and boy there some cheeze on that one, especially on the second side. I don't know if it is because of punk rock or whatever, but it definitely seems true that all of those fusion bands lost it after 74-75 (excepting some of the ECM stuff, which really isn't that much like the rawk fusion made by all of those guys that played in Miles band but still gets labeled as 'fusion').

THESE GUYS ARE SICK!!!

is that tony levin on STICK??

Yeah it is. Only the modified bass stick can handle Tony Levin's breathtaking virtuosity.

Best comment on there:

jhon6674u238 (5 days ago)
Not bad. Try CAMZHOME DOT COM for wild webcam girls

the stick bass just makes me mad when i see it....

anyway yeah dream theater. i grew up on guitar magz so you know it's all good.

the real underground shit is shrapnel records shit though, that's tru wank. david t chastain and tony macapline and paul gilbert and blues saraceno and all those dudez.

stu hamm

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8f/Portnoy.jpg

I'm assuming there's a giant gong where the photographer is standing, but until I see it, Portnoy gets no respect from me.

the SS Bozzio

http://grm.martin.free.fr/photosgraym/terrybozzio1.jpg

While, uh, 'researching' Dream Theater on wikipedia, I've discovered that half the band is married to half the chick-metal band Meanstreak. That strikes me as even more fucked up than the drumsets.

It is not clear to me whether all three couples were married at once, or if it's like some six-way open marriage or what.

Maybe they were just annoyed with their husbands making love to their instruments rather than to them and decided to get even.

There are many musicians whose styles may be legitimately compared to making love to their instruments. I'm reasonable certain that no member of Dream Theater fits this category.

they fingerbang their instruments

There are many ways to make love, oilyrags.

I'm not counting all that ridiculous "chili trombone" "rusty sanchez" stuff.

From WFMU: http://blog.wfmu.org/freeform/2007/08/you-better-not-.html

I think he signs off with the word "n00b"

Lord. (I was compelled to post a comment linking to the review of the Rock Discipline DVD on here.)

Kind of embarrassing to revive a Dream Theater for the second time but here goes.

This is DREAM THEATER:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Jordan_Rudess_%28H.I.%29.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/John_Myung2_%28H.I.%29.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/James_LaBrie_%28H.I.%29.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Mike_Portnoy.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/John_Petrucci_%28H.I.%29.jpg

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

This was the turning-the-clock-around album for Dream Theater. Mike Portnoy said that this album nearly killed Dream Theater because the record company wanted them to make a commercial album. I despise it when a record company tells you what to do, but Dream Theater compromised. Part of it you would expect to hear on Images and Words or Awake, and some you would go "HUH?"

1.New Millenium-Very techno-ish intro. This is not a great album-opener, but it's a great song. 4.5/5

2.You Not Me-This is the very commercial "huh?" song. Although it tried to be mainstream, I still liked it. Very short solo, however. 4/5

3.Peruvian Skies-The classics begin. This is a very nice soothing ballad turns rocker song. Intresting lyrics about someone named Vanessa. I think it's about child rebellion. Very good instrumental part. 5/5

4.Hollow Years-One of the best Dream Theater songs recorded. This is a regular pop ballad with Spanish influences. It may sound like every other pop ballad, but at least this one has a solo, and good lyrics. Very nice. 5/5

5.Burning My Soul-Did Dream Theater write that? NO WAY! This is an ultra heavy song. It's like Dream Theater taking a stab at Metallica, and they succeed. Great riff. Also, one of the best solos from Derek Sherenian. It sounds like a guitar! I guess the record swines wanted it to be a single. To the record industry: WAKE UP! No offense or anything to the fans, but do you realize who was popular in 1997? HANSON! Do you really think Burning My Soul would get anywhere? Nope, it sounds good! Can't let that happen! See my point? 5/5

6.Hell's Kitchen-It's ok, they could've done better than this. This sounds like a instrumental climax that should've been left in a 14-minute song. Actually, it was the instrumental part in Burning my Soul, but I guess that they let it out so that Burning My Soul could try to be a single. 3.5/5

7.Lines In The Sand-Pure Dream Theater. This is another 12 minute masterpiece. It has a great intro, probably one of the longest for Dream Theater, and the singer from King's X is in it (I forgot his name). Not a great instrumental part, but it still rocks! 4.5/5

8.Take Away My Pain-Great ballad. The guitar has a Police-vibe to it. Good lyrics. Also, a very soothing chorus. I like the bass in this one. No one gives John Myung credit. He's probably one of the greatest bassisits out there. 4.5/5

9.Just Let Me Breathe-A little dissapointing, but good lyrics. 3/5

10.Anna Lee-Nice ballad about child abuse. Very good piano line. 4.5/5

11.Trail of Tears-The geatest epic on this. Let's do this part by part:

I-It's Raining-Very nice intro, and a good jazz like verse. Intresting lyrics about wasted years. I like the chorus. It's got a good hook to it. 5/5

II-Deep In Heaven-Great solos by John and Derek. John's is more crazy, Derek's is more planned. Very nice. 5/5

III-The Wasteland-Great ending. Where is this Wasteland, might I add? Good guitar riff from John. The ending is very soothing, and it's a great ending to a great album. 5/5

YESSSSS

Well, we obviously know that John Petrucci, John Myung, and Mike Portnoy are incredible musicians. John Petrucci's guitar work here is, IMO, his most tasteful, and easily his least flashy, but possibly his best. John Myung is a talented and humble bass player. On "New Millenium" he uses a Chapman Stick, which shows how diverse and talented he is. Mike's drumming definitely did not stand out here as much as previous albums, or as much as later albums, but it's still obviouse that he's an incredible drummer. James LaBrie has an amazing voice, not much else can be said on that. So, what about the new keyboardist, Derek Sherinian? Well, he's pretty good. Not quite the songwriter Kevin was, and not quite the technical player Jordan is, but hey, if he was hired by Dream Theater, don't you think he must be good? Well, he is.

this shit a fuckin goldmine

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t214/ZachRScott/JAMESLABRIE.gif

Where IS this wasteland??!

(This thread was all worth it for Aaron's demolition of that Petrucci DVD.)

amazon review threads Ned, pretty sure you can just pick any album and go to town

^ James LaBrie action figure ^

OK. OK. It's over.

unitard

'nice ballad about child abuse' sounds so wrong

My 18-year-old cousin linked me the 23-minute "A Change of Seasons". I imagine that this what people who hate prog hear when they hear Yes or Rush?

OK, this guitar solo after the 17:30 mark is pretty good so far. There have been some decent sections but I don't see how they fit together.

(which is emphatically not how I feel about "Close to the Edge" or "Xanadu")

although I could see how someone might feel that way about Ruins or Naked City, whom I also like. So I'm not sure why this turns me off so much.

wow did we seriously not do the Dream Theater drummer auditions on this thread?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L609JsPFmmI

oh man, I watched all of that one night a couple years ago to avoid packing

ended up having to scramble last minute like a madman but that would've happened anyway and at least I got to watch the spirit carries on

after the 17:30 mark

Yep.

you're gonna have to pay me in bitcoins to watch that fyi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VApk-vvhp8

In which our heroes, former DT drummer Mike Portnoy, Mr. Big's Paul Gilbert, Neal Morse and Mike Bissonette play the Beatles, with fewer strings on their guitars and 1/6 of his Portnoy's usual drum set:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlwMmFZV1XE

Vox ain't bad at least!

Loved the glimpse, in the audition video, of the band's bandanna roadie.
To think that if I'd only practiced a bit harder, all this might have been mine.

That dude's guitar lesson actually seemed pretty chill. I mean, I hate his playing, but he seems like he would be a really good teacher.

Petrucci is a really, really nice guy. All of them are (that I've met - I've never had any interactions with Mike Portnoy, though I heard he was kind of a prick; my dealings have been with Petrucci, Jordan Rudess, Mike Mangini and John Myung).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/55ee1d0ebc933b3e1e320fd05d06b544.png

i love those wiki charts

One time in high school, I was in a music store and they were playing something really bitchin, and I walked up to the counter and saw Dream Theater's Images and Words on the 'Now Playing' stand, and so I bought it and took it out to the car and popped it in the cassette deck and realized very quickly that Dream Theater's Images and Words was most assuredly not the album that was 'Now Playing'.

lol! did you go back and figure out what it actually was?

No, this was at a point when my family lived forever away from stuff and before I was driving on my own, and going into town was like a once-a-month thing. I kept listening just to be sure, but by the time my error was confirmed there was no turning back. I tried to pretend that I liked it for a long time.

This was just after I'd discovered the first Pearl Jam album (pre-MTV) in the same way, so I thought I was really onto something.

Damn. The olden days of music-buying were such a gamble.

This band plays too well too much.

their songs are absolute garbage

It's like virtuoso garbage, as if they know how garbage they are but are so good at what they do that they've tried to figure out tricker or more technical ways to be garbage. It's almost academic.

and yet when you add it all up, they've made so many more thousands of people ecstatically happy than most of us ever will

Yeah, can't hate on that. Some people watch car commercials for the music.

no i mean hate on it

but them's the facts

That's why popularity is the worst gauge of quality.

new double album coming in January

these guys are far from my favorite prog-metal stuff but it's weird to me how hard people hate on them. they're like the designate hate-recipients

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdPn1mCmqoE

Just got a good lol from that thread title. Of course nabisco was responsible (missin u boo).

I'm pretty sure I told the story in some other thread where I heard an awesome album playing in a music store when I was maybe a freshman in high school and saw a copy of Images And Words in the 'Now Playing' display on the counter and bought the album straight away and discovered fairly quickly that it was most decidedly not the album that was 'Then Playing' and, because I only had the resources to buy maybe one album a month back then, I gave it multiple listens and really did try for a long time to like it but it just didn't take.

Ever since leaving Roadrunner Records I've found myself saying, almost every time they announce a new release, "Wow - glad I don't have to work on that." I actually liked the last Dream Theater album; the songs were, with one exception, short and melodic and relatively radio-friendly. There was one that was basically (by the band's own admission) a tribute to early '80s Rush, and another where Jordan Rudess's synth sounded like something straight off a Kansas album from 1975. Even the 20-minute epic was kinda good, in its own way. (They had to be almost forcibly talked out of opening the album with it, though.) But a double disc concept album, with the singer playing all different characters in every song? (Check out the special website they've built for it; look at the paintings of the characters.) Seriously, you couldn't get me within a mile of this thing.

I hate music
It's got too many notes

Which is the '80s Rush tribute?

When they get all "emotional" it's like the worst music ever. The crazy pyrotechnic stuff is fun and they seem like cool guys, tho

"but the theory lesson is on the Jordan Rudess online conservatory, and that's a whole different thing. so yeah let's turn on the other planets and see what's going on with this patch!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=F_N87hncAsw#t=295

"this one is called JR AWARENESS."

Which is the '80s Rush tribute?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Looking_Glass_(song)

Love the youtube comments, as always:

Michael Lyle 1 year ago
When did Rush get so hairy? 
Reply · 1


Mircea Filip 1 year ago
Ne-mai-po-me-nit ! Mai ai multe ?
Reply ·


Asoka Ginting 1 year ago
i cant got the goodness here..
Reply ·


Antonia Yankova 1 year ago
i can't wait to see them live at the end of the month!
Reply ·


Jeff Corcoran 1 year ago
DT have never been known for stunning music videos. However, this song is amazing, so I'm completely cool with that :D
Reply · 1


Vitor Boldrin 1 year ago
it sounds like rush's limelight dream theater sucks
Reply · 1


James Rockford 1 year ago
It's like Toto meets Rush
Reply · 1

Dream Theater To Perform Entire The Astonishing Album On North American Tour

The Astonishing: The Performining

feel like watching the drummer auditions video again.. Is there an edited version with just the actual auditions (sand interview)

Lol 'sans interviews'

What a herculean display of abject jackassery.

This is a spectacular sentence.

I like lots of wank but I just can't get with this

Apparently I have gone insane because I enjoyed a lot of the new album when I listened to it just now.

This is pretty hilarious: http://www.dreamtheater.net/theastonishing

that owns imo

the last time i listened to dream theater was METROPOLIS PART II: SCENES FROM A MEMORY which i was into when i was like 15. i've been afraid to relisten to it since

I heard a Dream Theater song on the radio yesterday and thought, OK, I'll hear this out, since I'm not sure I've ever really made it more than a minute or two before. I think it was called "Enemy Inside," and it totally encapsulated everything wrong with this band, which is a lot of things all at once, each individual component wrong in the wrongest way. First was that I heard it on sat. radio's "liquid metal" station, which tends toward extreme metal in all its permutations, from Testament to Gojira. Dream Theater is not metal, let alone extreme metal, it's like they read a book about metal and threw in some signifiers to make themselves seem metal, but then fucked it up by trying too hard. The clean sounding everything, the vocals ... just lame. Second, DT thinks it's some sort of intellectual pop-rock crossover a la Rush, but the lyrics are super stupid, the vocalist super lame, and the playing like guys raised on Rush who thought, you know what Rush was missing? Even more overplaying! And then they just lay on the ultra-technical drums and guitars so thick it sounds like a bunch of guys at Guitar Center showing off at once. Third , they think they're a prog band and not just a bunch of techy guys backing Joe Satriani or whatever. Or, I dunno, butt-stupid flash-rock like Racer X. So just as they throw in some metal stuff, or some poppy hooks, they throw in jarring weird time signature instrumental breakdowns with keyboard solos and shit like that sounds like a parody of prog, minus any sort of vision short number of notes per measure.

Basically, they're just trying too hard, all the time, which is a disaster for players so proficient that nothing is hard.

main crime = boooooooring. there's plenty of prog metal that isn't so....I listen to that.

tho tbh the only prog metal I listen to is Symphony X and Pain of Salvation and the latter have been dull for a decade

But see, I like prog and I like metal and I like prog-metal, and I even like boring, but this ... isn't really any of that. It's more like total cheese a la Trans-Siberian Orchestra crossed with crossover Queensryche crossed with Berklee College jam session or some shit like that. Like if someone came up with an AI script that generated prog-metal and them some other snotty programmer threw in some code for Bon Jovi or something, just to fuck with the results.

what they really need is to get mutt lange to produce them. they'd sound better that way.

Well they couldn't sound worse!

They should get Mutt to write and produce, then get other people to play. And then shelve the album anyway.

I try with them sometimes. I don't hate them but nothing really sticks.

they're just trying too hard, all the time

I tend to feel the same way but a lot of non-moronic people obv really love them. So how do we figure them out? I usually just put it down to not being the right mix of things for my taste, in the way that ELP usually is not, even though I love KC/Yes/Genesis. Kris probably somewhat OTM way upthread.

the object of dream theater is not to write good music. the object of dream theater is for each individual musician to come up with parts that impress those that play the same instrument so that they can sell instructional tapes and make the cover of Modern Drummer/Modern Goatee Keyboardist/Modern 9-string Bass Player/etc. they represent a different ethos of making and listening to music, a technical path with goals that only occasionally align with the traditional taste spectrum. magazines like modern drummer steer people toward this alternate world early on, when they're learning to play instruments. it's possible to get sucked in early and never return. it's kind of like an aspiring young writer who picks up "how to write magazine", and the first article is all about a writer who can cram more syllables into each sentence then ever thought possible. the second article is about how to write the most complicated sentence that technically still includes a subject and predicate, but disguised so that all but the most advanced readers of How to Write Magazine would never be able to identify them. the third article is just about superlong German words. the feature cover article is about someone who converts major works of literature to ascii art and then "speedreads" the ascii art, flipping through images rapidly to finish moby dick even more quickly than ever thought possible. if you sink yourself into this world for a few years at a formative time, these novelties become the main act, and the practitioners become the gurus who point to new (bad) directions because they're the only ones who care enough about the subject to talk about it.

there's a lot of overlap with all of this and marching band, too

every huge fan of dream theater should know that they would also be a huge fan of the Cavaliers Drum and Bugle Corps. i know this because i was a huge fan of both! they straddle the same view of music

Lol I was a subscriber to Guitar magazine when I learned guitar. Petrucci had a column that bored me to tears.

I remember reading the superlative statements made about the G3 tour crowd and being naive and impressionable, thinking "wow, why does nobody talk about these guys?"

And then went for my first voice lesson at a studio that also had guitar teachers and they had one of these things on loop and that (and when I heard Vai's "Bad Horsie") was when I realized it was guitar MUZAK.

It sucks because then people see technique as a bad word since it could lead to that but largely the reason i gave up guitar was cos i felt my enjoyment of it was stunted because of the things i couldn't do that i wanted to be able to do.

My best friend growing up surpassed me fast and he became one of these guys. Listened to Vai, Bela Fleck, boring shit, and it was all he played. He was a brilliant guitarist though.

Lost touch with him at 16. Five years ago, ran into his mother. He's living in CA making beats for rappers.

This is more like athletics than music. The most irritating thing about it all is the contempt that fans of this shit show for any musician who doesn't aspire to the same level of fretboard velocity. Makes me want to play Loiue Louie at them. I mean, the DT guys aren't even very good musicians! No way could any of them play anything funky to save their lives. Then again, they wouldn't want to. They'd see it as 'simplistic'.
Ugh.

the object of dream theater is not to write good music. the object of dream theater is for each individual musician to come up with parts that impress those that play the same instrument so that they can sell instructional tapes and make the cover of Modern Drummer/Modern Goatee Keyboardist/Modern 9-string Bass Player/etc.

I mean I know it's linked upthread somewhere but just to single out this post in particular (one of the best individual posts in all the history of ILX)

John Petrucci brings you...ROCK DISCIPLINE (a picture thread if the pictures can fit)

Based on this review, I can see DT no other way than as described.

Makes me want to play Loiue Louie at them

It's a question I've asked my guitar teacher a few times: do you think Vai, Satriani, et al. could even play "Wild Thing" or Louie Louie" or whatever all the way through? Or would they just kind of start and then put down the guitar, asking "why would I want to do that?" Obviously EVH could, but he was a garage rocker virtuoso, not some clinical tech shred dude. I also wonder if someone like, I dunno, Dream Theater dude ever picks up one of these Most Influential Guitarists lists, sees, I dunno, Johnny Ramone ahead of him, puts on a Ramones album, and is all, huh, don't get it. Then goes back to shredding.

Yeah, groove is totally beyond these guys' capacity. They recorded a medley of Led Zeppelin covers years ago - listen to the way Mike Portnoy (their drummer back then) speeds up "The Rover" and just lets all the heaviness seep out of it:

https://open.spotify.com/track/2QoV9s70tc0XkddoovqiUB

I mean I know it's linked upthread somewhere but just to single out this post in particular (one of the best individual posts in all the history of ILX)

John Petrucci brings you...ROCK DISCIPLINE (a picture thread if the pictures can fit)

Based on this review, I can see DT no other way than as described.

― Ned Raggett, Saturday, February 25, 2017 10:56 AM (thirty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

BOOOOOORING! COME ON PETRUCCI, MAKE ME A PROG MONSTER!!!

thank u for this gift ned

nah marching band music is way better than dream theater. here are a bunch of shirtless teenage boys playing univers zero's "dense" on marimba.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX3MfIlld8Y

as for "wild thing", _hendrix_ couldn't play it all the way through without lighting his guitar on fire, and i'm not going to give him shit for that.

Fair enough. Maybe he realized there was no way to better the original short of lighting his guitar on fire.

It would be cool if Dream Theater lit all their instruments on fire.

it would be cool if dream theater lit themselves on fire

One Night Only!

Matt #2 OTM.

I remember Mike Portnoy being interviewed and he was asked "how do you define progressive rock?" and his answer was something like "concepts, long songs and definitely an emphasis on technical musicianship" ... I mean, sure, if your sole exposure to prog is Emerson, Lake and Palmer.

Not even King Crimson, Yes and Rush went full tilt on the technical playing all the time, as fine musicians as they were.

I mean, Rush did 'Fly by Night', which is as straight ahead '70s rock as you could get. King Crimson did things like 'Red' and even Yes knew when to chill the fuck out.

I think it's fairly common to associate prog with technical proficiency, the standard rock history narrative (problematic ofc) abt prog v. punk makes a big point of this

Except a lot of the best prog was punk as fuck. I was thinking more recently how punk was, handmade I Hate Pink Floyd t-shirts aside, less a rebellion against prog and more against boring singer-songwriters. Or even against Led Zeppelin for that matter. Just anti show-offery in general.

Never properly listened to Dream Theatre but I've always been cautious of these type of dismissals because I've heard so many great bands described like this by people who probably never gave them a fair shot but maybe Dream Theatre, Vai, Malmsteem etc are actually like you guys and most people say? Not many of us here have a pathological aversion to solos and highly technical stuff. There's a lot of similar unfair dismissals among cartoonists and illustrators that is often coming from insecurity.

I know someone who really likes a few Dream Theatre albums so I've always wanted to give them a shot someday. I heard a little bit a few years ago and it sounded okay but not alluring.

xp yeah was not so much offering support for the standard narrative as suggesting that the guy from DT perhaps shouldn't be faulted too much for thinking prog = technical chops, and I do think a lot of prog acts like DT attract audiences that are _very_ into perfection and technical complexity

but it's not my main idea of prog either, remember talking with a literature professor, he told me he was attending a Steven Wilson concert, I was like, cool, what kinda music is it? He asked me if I was into prog, I said, definitely! He said: it is prog _manna_

and so I was quite surprised when later he sent me some (p cool) live videos of Steven Wilson playing unbeliavably perfect versions of 22 minute long songs, cause I had more thought of Iron Butterfly or maybe Neu! but no, this Pynchon-expert, great guy, was totally into that type of prog

fortunately steven wilson is not dream theater

I've always been cautious of these type of dismissals because I've heard so many great bands described like this by people who probably never gave them a fair shot

This + I don't think they would do concept albums if all they cared about was displaying their instrumental technique + I do trust that some of the people I know who like them are getting more than this out of it.

yeah, I like that the objective of the thread is to figure how to get Dream Theater since a lot of music fans get a great kick out of them

It's the arrogance of precision and prowess that bugs me, the idea that because they can play better than others it somehow makes the music better as well. Obviously there are all sorts of cool bands that can play well - you can't get fussier or more precise than, say, XTC - but technique for technique's sake just sucks. At its most indulgent I think Yes falls into this trap, but that band at least had vision and its playing fed into that vision. DT's vision is just to play well, afaict, which serves nothing but itself, which is the worst kind of indulgent.

I like awesome technique, too, I should say, but DT is just so patronizing about it. That is, the playing in Mahavishnu Orchestra (for example) is awe-inspiring, but DT is at once self-conscious about its virtuosity - we're going to one-up Mahavisnhnu, or Rush, or Maiden, or whomever, because we are even better trained! - or self-defeating, like, we can do whatever we want, but we're going to dumb ourselves down with silly vocals or nods to metal, because that puts butts in seats.

Makes me want to play Loiue Louie at them.

When I was 16 I was in a summer music program where my roommate was this super-proficient guitarist. He was a super nice guy, but he put pictures of Yngwie and Tony MacAlpine and Steve Vai all over the walls. We didn't get in each others' way when we listened to music; I let him play his Yngwie or whatever and he allowed me my Velvets. But one day while I was listening to 1969 Live he cracked. He basically said the only reason the Velvets played that way was because they were physically incapable of playing fast. There could not possibly be any other reason, and certainly no reason for anyone to waste time listening to it. He was basically making Yngwie's "More is more!" argument a couple decades early. But I'm reminded of the tone of utter bafflement in his argument whenever someone brings up Dream Theater or a similar band.

This is more like athletics than music. The most irritating thing about it all is the contempt that fans of this shit show for any musician who doesn't aspire to the same level of fretboard velocity. Makes me want to play Loiue Louie at them. I mean, the DT guys aren't even very good musicians! No way could any of them play anything funky to save their lives. Then again, they wouldn't want to. They'd see it as 'simplistic'.
Ugh.

even Yes knew when to chill the fuck out.

I was listening to "South Side of the Sky" this morning, and Bruford's riding the backbeat the whole way. I don't think he plays even so much as a grouping of 16th notes in the whole song.

the idea that because they can play better than others it somehow makes the music better as well.

As well as the idea that because it has a concept, it immediately has some kind of artistic merit.

Both Yes and Rush could def groove!

Josh- When would you say Yes fell into this because I haven't heard anything by them that made me think of that? Steve Howe said he regretted parts of his playing in Going For The One as being needlessly complex but I don't think he went overboard to the extent of ruining the songs.

I grew up on the NME/Uncut approved lineage and I still love most of that stuff but I have to say that after getting into prog in a big way, a lot of alternative rock really does sound too simple and maybe even more prone to having filler tracks.

It's really never that bad, honestly, I was just thinking of some of the really complex vocals, I think. Like in ... Close to the Edge, maybe? Stuff on that album is just generally complex and busy, though not ruined or that objectionably awful or anything compared to DT.

If I were to change anything about the album it definitely wouldn't be those overlapping vocals, they're amazing! But I could only make minor quibbling suggestions, like maybe "Siberian Khatru" doesn't need the short tangent near the end.

yeah, I like that the objective of the thread is to figure how to get Dream Theater since a lot of music fans get a great kick out of them

― niels

dream theater have the dubious honour of being the only band i've ever stopped liking. i was into them for six months when i first got into prog and i just eventually moved on.

for me, and i therefore assume for most dream theater fans, they're dazzled by dream theater's flash, the trans-siberien orchestra thing. it's lack of style over lack of substance. i don't assume they're hearing something i'm not, as i do for most music i dislike. i assume they're hearing the same shit i am but they actually enjoy that sort of shit.

If I were to change anything about the album it definitely wouldn't be those overlapping vocals, they're amazing! But I could only make minor quibbling suggestions, like maybe "Siberian Khatru" doesn't need the short tangent near the end.

― Robert Adam Gilmour

what, the vocal/drum unison thing? nah, i wouldn't do without a second of it. the thing about that album is it's filled with shit that would otherwise be gimmicky, church organ and sitar and all the shit like that, but it's so tightly compositionally integrated that it works regardless. without the vocal/drum unison break i don't think squire's bass solo would have the impact it does. i don't even _like_ yes, but i can't help but be impressed by the maturity of their composition on that record.

Why do I specifically enjoy this music so much? As the son of two music teachers who had classically refined musical tastes, I was exposed to a lot of opera and symphonic music while growing up. Oversaturation of the classics set in at an early age, yet through so much exposure I developed a mature appreciation for the fundamentals of musical technique. After experimenting with the Styx-Chicago-Journey-Supertramp-Kansas-Triumph genre and some hair metal in high school, my favorite bands emerged as Rush and Queensryche. These bands of course balance melodic hooks and technically difficult accompaniment very well, and bring meaningful lyrics into the mix. I enjoyed some harder rock in brief moments, but the likes of Pantera and pre-"Sandman" Metallica were a little too heavy for me at the time.

When I was first introduced to Dream Theater through my college roommate's Images & Words CD, I instantly knew it was the perfect unique mix of my life's worth of musical tastes. I must have spun this CD literally thousands of times over the last 10 years--for the first year I played it 3 to 5 times a day, back to back, sometimes skipping class to master the lyrics or reverse engineer the time changes and syncopation. Impossible! Hypnotic! ADDICTIVE.

If this were almost any other band, I would say that the almost-too-self-indulgent vocals of James LaBrie are supported by some of the world's best chops on instruments. But Mike Portnoy on drums, John Petrucci on guitar, and Kevin Moore on keyboards all have lead roles in the musicality of the CD. While individualistic, these parts combine with a tour-de-force of power that somehow works extremely well together. John Myung's bass part usually lends a supportive role rather than a leading presence, but his musicianship and technical mastery of the instrument are phenomenal as well.

LaBrie is an exceptionally strong vocalist, and his part-time bravado / part-time pussycat approach probably would not have matched as well with the style of any other band I can think of. Each band member deserves a significant bio, but rather than having me take apart each of his tendencies in this meaningless text, one truly must experience the blend of talent in person to understand. SO BUY THE CD! After you've become hooked, check out some of DT's other work. They are a band who have achieved a significant hard-core international fan base by doing things THEIR way, maintaining their dignity by avoiding the common and sticking to what makes them unique. No sellouts in this group!

The bottom line? After spinning the CD a few times to get through the technical facade, the listener finds himself interactively engaged with the music, craving a deeper understanding of the lyrics, wanting to decipher the difficult musical passages, and trying to imagine himself as a character in the dramatic scenes that are playing out. Yes, the "images and words" brought forth by this music transports the imaginative listener to a "dream theater." Like the near-perfect details in these songs, the names of the CD and the band were not chosen by accident.

from Fun With Amazon Reviews

Part-time pussycat.

I don't strongly object to any of that Yes stuff, like I said, they have vision, which helps it cohere. But some of it gets a little too busy for my tastes, sort of busy for its own sake, like a lot of cool ideas strung together because nobody was going to cut their own cool idea. Which if I recall correctly is one of the main sources of conflict that sometimes bogged down Yes to begin with.

Rushomancy- no, the short harpsichord bit. I really love harpsichord but it feels a bit unnecessary.

[Instrumental Intro]

[Guitar Theme]

[Drums rolling]

[Keyboard theme]

[Bass guitar theme]

[Ensemble together]

[Hard theme]

[Hard theme variation]

[Drums]

[Verse 1]
Lost in the sky
Clouds roll by and I roll with them
Arrows fly
Seas increase and then fall again

[Pre-Chorus 1]
This world is spinning around me
This world is spinning without me and
Every day send future to past
Every breath leaves me one less to my last

[Instrumental Bridge 1]

[Verse 2]
Watch the sparrow falling
Gives new meaning to it all
If not today nor yet tomorrow
Then some other day
I'll take seven lives for one
And then my only father's son
As sure as I did ever love him
I am not afraid

[Pre-Chorus 2]
This world is spinning around me
The whole world keeps
Spinning around me
All life is future to past
Every breath leaves me one less
To my last

[Instrumental Bridge 2]

[Guitar Solo 1]

[Chorus 1]
Pull me under, pull me under
Pull me under, I'm not afraid
All that I feel is honor and spite
All I can do is set it right

[Instrumental Bridge 3]

[Verse 3]
Dust fills my eyes
Clouds roll by and I roll with them
Centuries cry
Orders fly and I fall again

[Pre-Chorus 3]
This world is spinning inside me
The whole world is spinning inside of me
Every day sends future to past
Every step brings me closer to my last

[Instrumental Bridge 4]

[Guitar Solo 1]

[Chorus 2]
Pull me under, pull me under
Pull me under, I'm not afraid
Living my life too much in the sun
Only until your will is done

[Instrumental Bridge 5]

[Keyboard Solo 1]

[Guitar Solo 2]

[Chorus 1]

[Chorus 2]

[Instrumental Bridge 6]

[Hard theme alternate]

[Hard theme alternate variation]

[Outro]
Oh that this too
Too solid flesh
Would melt

i crave a deeper understanding of these lyrics

http://i.imgur.com/O54K40Z.jpg

Living my life too much in the sun
Only until your will is done

What the fuck did I just read?

When I read a thread about Dream Theater, I always think we're talking about Tangerine Dream until I read a few sentences.

http://i.imgur.com/ZGZSMnJ.jpg

This world is spinning around me
The whole world keeps
Spinning around me
All life is future to past
Every breath leaves me one less
To my last

[Instrumental Bridge 2]

[Guitar Solo 1]

but THEN, later,

This world is spinning inside me
The whole world is spinning inside of me
Every day sends future to past
Every step brings me closer to my last

this whole world is spinning either way, but earlier in the song it is around him. but later on, it is inside of him. you might think that means he is getting larger, since at the beginning the world is spinning around him and later it is inside of him. but no, there is another way. what if he is the sun (the son!?!?!?!??!), and THAT's why the world is spinning around him, but then the world moves inside of him (the son1?!!?!?) but still somehow it spins. there is a bunch to look into here, these are early days

James TheCheese

Dream Theater fans , like....I don't even know if I've encountered one in real life, mostly cos if anybody started talking about that kind of music I'd make up an excuse to talk to someone else.

I've always been cautious of these type of dismissals because I've heard so many great bands described like this by people who probably never gave them a fair shot

Believe me, I tried. THAT was a mistake.

As I mentioned upthread, I worked for their label for three years, so I was forced to listen to their music in marketing meetings and nod appreciatively and talk about what I would do to promote it online. The self-titled album from a couple of years ago is the closest thing they've ever come to something I could listen to all the way through, and even that has a 20-minute multi-part song that'll just sap your will to live. (And they had to be argued out of opening the album with it.)

Dream Theater may not have sold many records, but everyone who bought one started to shred.

Karl's post with "Modern Goatee Keyboardist" is my favorite thing on the internet right now.

Like if there were a magazine called "Modern ILX Post0r" and there was an issue with Karl on the cover, I would buy that issue and carefully study the tablature.

I remember in the mid '90s there was an issue of one of the guitar magazines (forgot which one) that had a cover-mounted CD with Guthrie Govan talking through a Dream Theater solo... if I recall it went a bit like this:

"So, here's the first four bars at half-tempo..."

*incomprehensible widdling for a few seconds*

"Now at full speed..."

*incomprehensible widdling for a second or so*

FWIW: I interviewed Petrucci and Portnoy for the bio for …was it Systematic chaos? yeah that one, with such a deep title, maaannn. Don't like the band, but I had a lot of experience and interest in guys immersed in that kind of mindset…like "in the 1980s, rock music at its baseline was played like sports: elite ability was the name of the game, and that's the way it should be. I work hard to be as good a player as I am, and it is an indignity and injustice that hiphop and Nirvana ruined everything." To be fair, Portnoy felt at the time that Petrucci and Myung were inflexible in that regard. He said he thought My Chemical Romance was good and that those guys would be dismissive of anything past 1991 that was not from Chops-ville. That isn't to say that Portnoy would say "oh yeah, I really like Usher too." But he seemed to think that he was more open-minded than the rest of the band.

On that one, the singer insisted that they do his anti-Iraq war song, which the fairly conservative Petrucci disagreed with (a few years before, they recorded JP's song re: Bush suppressing stem cell research). that record also included installments of Portnoy's 12 steps epic which stretches across a few albums, a la Rush's Fear trilogy.

also, if you want to figure out Dream Theatre, understanding that those two come from deep Long Island is relevant.

conservatives in progressive rock, doesn't surprise me I guess

i remember being disappointed as a kid cos the artwork on Awake made me think it would be some kind of trippy, dream-like trance metal or futuristic sounding shit and I took it to the listening station and was like wtf IS this

yet as far as proggy type stuff goes, there IS much worse

If I had to change one thing about Close to the Edge, I might get slightly better singers to do the backup vocals. (I don't think they're horrible but they have some rough edges on an album that is not about rough edges otherwise.) It's pretty close to a perfect album for me, though.

also, if you want to figure out Dream Theatre, understanding that those two come from deep Long Island is relevant.

Ha, I had assumed they were from Boston. I don't know why this seems to make more sense, but it does, somehow.

Mike Portnoy came into #metal on DALnet once. he was predictably boring and got raked over the coals by the regulars.

those guys went to Berklee and formed the band there, but P and P are from Long Beach & King's Park. They told me that when they went to berklee in the 80s, it was very unusual to be into rock, metal et al: everyone was all about jazz. Not the case now.

Portnoy being skeptical about chops-centric music is a little like Jane Roe being antiabortion, or neoconservatives second-guessing the Iraq invasion.

Yeah cool story bro but the damage is kinda done.

I think it's possible Portnoy, Paul Gilbert et al. were trying to make some point with these shows:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEtmHhD7xQ0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZamTrI1680

i'm going to listen to "Caught in a Web" for shits and giggles.

0:00 - cool riff underneath cheesy as fuck synths
0:07 - well that was nice while it lasted
0:21 - LaBrie sounds like a precursor to Chester Bennington by way of Rob Halford
1:14 - Queensryche-ian chorus, too AOR for my tastes
2:43 - breakdown serving the only real dose of heavy in the song, then gives way to pointless octave noodling
3:13 - solo with a really boring bassline underneath
3:36 - cowbell. ok.
3:49 - ok the shitty synths are back

ok that's all I can stand

I think you figured out Dream Theater.

I don't think deciding against an anti-Bush song is necessarily conservative. There was a lot of shit protest songs from that time.

I wouldn't call it full-on shit but IQ's anti-Bush song from Dark Matter is one of the weakest things on the album and even sounds like patriotic Christian Rock at points, for a satirical purpose but it still sounds like patriotic Christian Rock all the same.

I think it's possible Portnoy, Paul Gilbert et al. were trying to make some point with these shows:

That point apparently was, "We didn't learn a fucking thing from listening to the Who."

the only thing of Portnoy's I've ever enjoyed is that video where he played the Hello Kitty drumkit

Xpost they probably learned that Pete Townsend would have sounded better if he used active pickups.

Hmm I'm a little surprised there is almost zero support for these guys on this board. I like them, though I think their music is pretty soulless a lot of the time. Especially their singer - I never hear any emotion from him, everything is just signifiers of emotion. But just on a technical playing and writing construction standpoint, I like many of their songs. "Panic Attack" from Octavarium is what I usually tell people to start with - I think some people know that one from one of the Guitar Hero games anyway

I admit when I was getting into prog in my late teens I bout a DT album (I forget which one, maybe Metropolis?) that's quietly mouldering back in my parents's house. It was one of those times where you have a friend who's really into something and you buy into the hype... didn't last long. This is also why I have a couple of Porcupine Tree records, which, if anything, I regret more. From what I remember of this and hearing DT occasionally over the years is that the riffs/choruses etc. are just so perfunctory and obvious it feels like they're saying "don't worry kids, we have to get this pleb shit out the way so we can get to the REAL good stuff in a sec." I feel like good prog, jazz or whatever can use technicality to actually say something if they're any good. "Soulless"/"signifiers of emotion" really sums them up I think.

That said I'm not going to rag on anyone who likes them, people listen to music for all kinds of reasons, though I could only laugh if/when one of them tried to educate me on what "real music" is.

Anyway I thought up the phrase "virtuoso signalling" this morning which sums up this kind of empty musicianship nerd shit but I'm too tired and apathetic to fit it into a coherent joke

When I moved into my first student house we found a copy of Metropolis in one of the bedroom drawers, along with Countdown to Extinction by Megadeth and £3 in Marks and Spencer vouchers, I don't think we listened to either of them.

Countdown is a good album. One of Megadeth's best, IMO.

And definitely underscores why Dream Theater sucks. You could be technical and virtuoso and complicated and even tuneful and not suck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF75xTzMuXw

i feel like this belongs on this thread

My head is exploding at the contrast between that guy's excellent footwork and his extremely sloppy snare fills. Also what is up with the weirdly clicky, high kick drum sound?

Also what is up with the weirdly clicky, high kick drum sound?

That's what modern metal kick drums sound like, so they can cut through the downtuned guitars and bass.

and they sound awful like typewriters from hell

Triggering.

Seen a bit in a magazine from Barney Greenway who is a fan and has collaborated with them. He said they were massively underrated as songwriters.

I still haven't tried them yet but that's a long way off yet. Too much classics to get to first.

"YOU NOODLE!"

just an absolute banger headline, thank you Ultimate Guitar pic.twitter.com/fItjWuK6Io

— domvan (@domvanford) December 13, 2021

lmao

from upthread

[Instrumental Bridge 5]

[Keyboard Solo 1]

[Guitar Solo 2]

[Chorus 1]

[Chorus 2]

[Instrumental Bridge 6]

[Hard theme alternate]

[Hard theme alternate variation]

2022 will go down as the year when Dream Theater released a song that I like unambiguously (even if it is a straight-up pastiche of Rush): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbzrxFRCyAk

Oh I guess it was released in 2021.

haha such a silly song

joyful

There's an even more Rush-alike song from their 2013 self-titled album. I worked for their label at the time and I remember laughing out loud the first time I heard it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Cf1CF6Avvc

The other day someone I follow on twitter responded to a Joe Bonamassa tweet that was in turn responding to a Guitar mag prompt asking for the best guitar album of the '90s. (I don't know anything about Bonamassa, never heard a note; iirc he picked an album by The Hellecasters.) Anyway, I made the mistake of scrolling down to see what others picked, and it was the usual 16th note sci-fi flurry shit: Steve Vai, Satch (iirc someone even picked "Surfing with the Alien," and stuck to their guns when reminded it was from the '80s). But, inevitably, someone picked Dream Theater, and I realized, you know, I've never really spent much more than a couple of minutes with them. Because this person also picked a specific track which (paraphrasing) had it all, I listened to that one, and woof - why would anyone want to listen to this? Why would anyone want to *play* this? The guitar was so precise, so technical and clinical, and so souless that it might as well have been an intricately programmed synth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEKTNtmKZEw

First comment: "The solo is just perfect, I think it has almost every imaginable technique on guitar"
Second comment: "It's not a solo, it's a clinic on how to make shred guitar tasteful."
Third comment: "whatever"

This song is what happens when everyone in a band thinks they're the most talented member of the band, including the singer.

This song is what happens when everyone in a band thinks they're the most talented member of the band, including the singer.

If I’m not mistaken, I think every member of dream theater has been on the cover of a very bad magazine associated with their instrument (ie modern drummer) multiple times. Plus, they have tons of fans who say things like “you are the greatest guitar player of all time, man!” on a daily basis.

Their lives are incredibly messed up

I do like this style of drumming in other contexts (metal, Greg Fox projects).

Their lives are incredibly messed up

Offstage they're some of the nicest people in the world. John Petrucci is just a dad from Long Island who spends most of his day practicing guitar and doing bicep curls, keyboardist Jordan Rudess is a giant dork and gearhead/inventor, bassist John Myung is incredibly chilled-out and one of the least fame-oriented artists I've ever met, and drummer Mike Mangini is, like, giddy when you talk to him. The singer, James LaBrie, I've never had any interaction with, but he's Canadian, so how bad could he be?

Sounds like having "tons of fans who say things like 'you are the greatest guitar player of all time, man!' on a daily basis" is a sound recipe for mental health!

xp that doesn’t surprise me! I still tbey they must be completely messed up. There’s no way you play a 19-string bass and then do yard work

Somehow I always forget that portnoy left dream theater in 2010.

Also somehow I missed that portnoy was with avenged sevenfold for a minute?

Look let's just be thankful that the surviving members of Rush haven't formed a supergroup with the guy

Portnoy is so insanely busy, amazing this guy has time to sleep, considering how many long ass songs he plays on. I mean, just in the last five years he has recorded albums with:

Liquid Tension Experiment
Transatlantic
Neal Morse solo
Neal Morse Band (x2)
Flying Colors
John Petrucci solo
Sons of Apollo

not to mention associated touring with all of these acts

I think he is just always in a room playing a solo, and every once in a while somebody walks into the room and presses record for 8 minutes.

Hahaha

lol