DJ Shadow: classic or dud?

On the tolerable side of classic because he's a total fucking goth -- and like me doesn't immediately demonstrate it on first appearance. There's a reason why the UNKLE album turned out that way and had Thom Yorke on it -- I prefer to think of the hip-hop image he projects as covering up his doomy moodiness. Which may not sound very goth, but if Tricky can like Gary Numan and Danzig, anything's possible. ;-)

another point against him is that he falls into the 'only-thing-with-a-beat-at-an- indie-kids-house' camp that tom put the beastie boys in, and he's become the default torch-bearer of the dj element in 'real hiphop' beloved by jurassic 5 fan. mention grandmixer d.st and you'll get a blank stare, but mention shadow and you're sure to find someone to let you in on the secret that 'all the good rap is underground'. blech.

of course i can't blame shadow for that, and taken for what it is, his output is mostly fantastic. if this was a search and destroy, my verdict would be to search 'endtroducing' and early singles (and i still maintain that the unkle album is asorely underrated pop album, but i wouldn't advise one to 'search' for it) and to destroy his stereotypical indie production on solesides cuts. but this is classic or dud, so i have to say he's classic.

oh and ned, re: the goth connection, i think there's a good bit of truth to that, although the 'wasn't he famous once' comment is a bit harsh considering there hasn't been a new album with the man's name on it in five years. wait and see.

'Holy Calamity' still fucking rules.

Yeah, but the rapper couldn't rap without vocal cords, lips, tongue, and the English Language!

Girls! Boys! Start screaming and tearing off the clothes of world- famous icon Hua Hsu!

ha ha!

Please deconstruct this comment.

Okay: it's true.

Why can I get a copy of influx - like - to-day?
(i've just been outbid on ebay and am very sad).

And I'm not proud to beg.

http://www.discogs.com/sell/list?release_id=17256&ev=rp <-- that one?

it's on one of the compilations.

xp
Yes that one. I've got it on Headz but I specifically want the one that starts with some guy talking which I believe is the single version. I have it but when I loaded it up yesterday I discovered it was cracked. Indestructable cds, pah!

Hey, I just found another copy. I have so much shit I don't even know I have. Sorry to have taken up your time. Anyway, while I'm here can i just say I am very much enjoying the DJ Shadow's early records what I am listening to presently. So, classic!

Entroducing was without doubt an absolute classic. In my head.

Maybe it was good timing - it was unlike anything to me at that time,me being a guitar indie fucker.

It had depth and was moving.

Why were his successive releases so shit?

it's on preemptive strike dude

right???

I really liked The Private Press, but I haven't had the stomach to try The Outside yet...

er, Outsider.

High School Band Plays DJ Shadow !

http://ia300108.us.archive.org/2/items/BrianUdelhofenTheShadowPercussionProject/spp.wmv

classic up to and including entroducing, patchy after.

i also liked Private Press. not 100% classic, but damn good.

The Outsider was a mess.

last time I saw him play he got huge boos for anything from the outsider. Eventually he stopped and spent a while explaining to the crowd that he wasn't going to apologise for experimenting, and he'd never make the same record twice, and he had to keep on trying new things.

Really nasty mood in the crowd that night.

maybe he should just apologize for making a shitty record

and selling it to us

making a hyphy track when hyphy is at its peak is not 'experimenting'. more like trying to capitalize lol.

last time I saw him play he got huge boos for anything from the outsider. Eventually he stopped and spent a while explaining to the crowd that he wasn't going to apologise for experimenting, and he'd never make the same record twice, and he had to keep on trying new things.

this sounds really awkward and weird. given a boring, predictable lecture by a dude you paid to see rock the decks???

I saw him support radiohead some years ago and the crowd ignored him so at least he got a reaction. Which is better, maybe?

paying dj shadow to 'rock the decks' -- ya got burned.

Yeh, I think he was also trying to say "you ain't from the Bay, so you aren't gonna get hyphy aw fuck it here's Organ Donor"

I hate all that backpacker, old-school "jiggy hip hop sucks, it was better in the olden days" shit.

those backpack rappers, always talking about jiggy hiphop

Yeah, always moaning about it. Back in the 90s, anyway.

I hate all that jiggy, old-school "backpacker-baiting sucks, it was much more fun in the olden days" shit.

"i also liked Private Press. not 100% classic, but damn good.

-- one time"

yeah, i think that record is pretty underrated.

I can't take anything he does that features non-sampled vocals. Classic otherwise.

Also true he is prone to delivering boring lectures mid-show, but so is Robert Fripp and he rates classic as well.

Private Press is ruddy excellent and I'll fight anyone who claims otherwise.

private press is a great coming-down album

last time I saw him play he got huge boos for anything from the outsider. Eventually he stopped and spent a while explaining to the crowd that he wasn't going to apologise for experimenting, and he'd never make the same record twice, and he had to keep on trying new things.

this sounds really awkward and weird. given a boring, predictable lecture by a dude you paid to see rock the decks???

huge boos vs. big hoos

i have defeated huge boos fyi

those backpack rappers, always talking about jiggy hiphop

-- and what, Saturday, March 8, 2008 10:48 AM (2 days ago) Bookmark Link

with the hippin and the hoppin and the bippin and the boppin

man i still love endtroducing

yes

still love preemptive strike too

i never got private press i should

I downloaded the 4-track era comp the other day. Have not listened yet tho

xpost. that's where i got off the bus. There's no standout tracks that I can remember and an awful use of a sample of "El condor pasa".

Off 'You Can't Go Home Again'? That's one of his all-time best tracks!

private press is so underrated

great tempo:

private press >>> endtroducing imo

u crazy

i listen to private press way more

i just feel like that condor pasa sample doesn't at all fit in with that bit of music at all.

i have fond memories of driving around milwaukee and hearing some tracks on college radio before it came out and just knowing it was new dj shadow.

xp it does seem kind of out of place/tempo but it works for me, it balances it out the electro stuff.

cute:

Anyone going to pretend the Outsider was his best thing.

*crickets*

private press >>> endtroducing imo

Yep. The highlights of Endtroducing are better, but PP is a far more consistent and coherent album.

The school band version reminded me of this:

The El Condor Pasa sample in You Can't Go Home Again is in that sweet area right on the edge of sounding wrong.

that sweet area right on the edge of sounding wrong.

Haha, I love that area. Perceptive comment.

private press is so underrated

― Tracy Michael Jordan Catalano (Jordan), Friday, January 23, 2009 4:00 PM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i agree with this but hoos is wrong about it being better than introducing

i saw him live once and during that 'now approaching MIDNIIIGHT' joint i forget the name of this guy near me goes "oh thats butter." for some reason that really annoyed me, to the point that i feel the need to repeat the anecdote now

so, yeah; dud.

always dud

(although, dude is a miami bass fan...)

always will rep for shadow from hayward Ca, not the greatest place in the world but whatever. ENdtroducing is classic, private press is good but not as personal, the outsider is fucking terrible come on, seriously, why man?
Shit I'm drunk, apologies. Shadow classic on balance tho.

https://www.djshadow.com/news/shadows-st...try-here?page=1

Shadow's starting the New Year off with a bang, check out his latest journal entry here!
Posted Jan 4, 2010
WARNING: RAMBLING TIRADE FROM A 37-YEAR OLD TECHNOPHOBE BELOW

Well, here we are again, another year, another decade. Optimism about the future is tempered with a nagging sense that underlying factors causing most of the misery in the world still exist. Lucky, then, that I’m a musician and not a politician.

Specifically, when it comes to the wallet, everyone’s suffering…of that there can be no doubt. And what of the financial prospects for musicians and recording artists in the years to come? Shaky, at best. Unless you’re one of the grotesque ‘Idol’-type pop disasters in the top 5, you’re looking at getting a day job or finding other sources of income. Conventional wisdom amongst my peers has been remarkably short-sided over the last decade: “Yeah, CD sales are down, but all the money is in licensing.” Not anymore. “Yeah, licensing money is down, but the video game industry is killing it.” Less so these days, according to recent data. “Well, the real money is in touring.” Really? When was the last time you saw a ‘new,’ post-record company artist headline a major music festival? At this rate, we’ll be stuck with Coldplay for decades (no offense intended).

Time for a little straight talk, from one reasonably intelligent human being to YOU, the reasonably intelligent reader. As distasteful as it may sound, the fact is that so many of our heroes: Jimi Hendrix, John Coltrane, The Beatles, whoever you care to name; generated much of their best art in return for financial compensation. If you take away the compensation, guess what…the art stops. For example, how many young rap artists are grinding away these days in New York, trying to get a deal? Not too many, certainly compared to the ‘80s and ‘90s. There’s no allure, no pot at the end of the rainbow. People have been asking for years now, “Where’s the next Nas, the next Jay-Z?” Be prepared to keep waiting…and for music, overall, to keep sucking. Why? Because only bottom-of-the-barrel, embarrassing pop tripe generates enough income to feed the machine. Anything unproven or risky? Nobody’s going to bankroll that kind of ‘experiment.’

Let me be clear: I love music. I love the culture of music, making music, playing music, geeking out over music from the past and present. I love old record company stories, and the characters that inhabited it. In other words, I have learned to appreciate the merchants of commerce as well as the art. If you love movies or cars, chances are you can relate to what I’m describing. What would Hollywood be without the larger-than-life, audacious personalities behind the scenes? What would cars be like if there had never been Detroit?

Gone are the recording studios (including the historically important Plant down the road from me in Sausalito), the record shops, and the music magazines. Replaced by the oh-so-cynical, oh-so-corrosive AM talk radio of the new millennium, the Internet. But I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know. Chances are, you may have even been one of those majority who danced on the grave of the falling record companies, pointed to Radiohead giving their album away for free and said, “See, look, if they can do it, why can’t everyone else?” Slowly, I turn…

Every artist is entitled to their own price point, just as every consumer has a choice in what they purchase. Nobody puts a gun to someone’s head and says, “Hey, buy this Picasso for 20 million.” Likewise, if $9.99 is too much to spend for one of my albums, so be it, your choice. But if you’re holding your breath, waiting for me to boost my cool-quotient by giving my music away for free, it’s not going to happen. The fact is that I feel my music has value. You may disagree, and that’s fine. But I know how much energy I put into what I do, and how long it takes me to make something I’m satisfied with. Giving that away just feels wrong to me. It’s not about money per se; I can donate a large sum of money to charity and not think twice, but I won’t give my art away. I’d rather sell it to 100 people who value it as I do than give it away to 1000 who could care less. That’s MY choice.

I realize these are all unpopular subjects. Artists are never supposed to address their flock about such icky subjects as business and commerce. (By the way, and I hope it doesn’t sound disingenuous, but now would be a REALLY good time to express my undying THANKS for your support, which matters IMMENSELY in my ability to retain music as my primary endeavor. As a fan of others, I always used to wonder, “does this artist or group really care about whether I buy their stuff or not? Do they care that I go to their show?” YES, WE CARE!!!!! Now, more than ever). Most think that I should stop whining, grow up and embrace the Internet, become more active, tweet more, hype more, give more stuff away, etc, etc. Honestly, I’ve tried…and will keep trying. But the bottom line is that not every paradigm or system is right for everyone. We’ve all been told for years that the Internet is our Savior; it’s cool, youthful, hip, the solution to every problem, and if you aren’t joining a new networking site on a weekly basis, you’re a social pariah. Sorry…I just don’t feel that way. I’m old enough to know that when 99% of the population is marching lockstep in one direction, sometimes it’s wise to break rank and go the other way. Plus, I simply don’t like sitting in front of a computer screen all day.

I’m not saying that I don’t use the Internet on a regular basis; I do. And obviously I’m very proud of this site and its ability to support itself through the store. Honestly, I just think a large portion of the dialogue and content available online is an utter shit fest: a Pandora’s box of violence, neurosis, bad impulses, and bad intentions. It has become the “Super Horror Show” the Last Poets could never have dreamed of, like bad television on steroids and angel dust simultaneously. CL Smooth memorably called television “a schism…negative realism.” And much like the TV of the ‘60s and ‘70s, you will NEVER hear or read anything negative about the Internet ON the Internet. There’s too much money to be made, by someone somewhere (and hey, why ruffle the feathers of the goose that’s laying the golden egg, right?). 20 years from now, it will be interesting to see what hindsight reveals. I predict a flag on the time-line: when we moved closer to becoming a passionless, listless, hollowed-out society, one in which art and nature could no longer provide the psychological shock to the system required to endure another harrowing day of terror alerts and super-bugs. Music can only suggest sex and violence…the Internet provides both, full frontal and full strength, 24/7. Maximum dose.

Whatever…what will be will be. As long as I breathe, I’ll make music, love music, support music. I used to get in fights at school to defend my right to listen to rap, and I’ll fight on against any institution or prevailing thinking that seeks to dictate to me how and when the music I make is to be disseminated. If there’s 50 of you, or 100, or more out there willing to accept my right to choose, as I accept yours, then welcome aboard…you are my fan base. The rest of you that don’t, and want me to play someone else’s game…I wish you well. Let’s just leave the subject at that and call it what it is: a mutual misunderstanding.

Regardless, it’s going to be a hell of a year. I am working hard on new music, and hope to share some of it with you in the coming months (really!). I’m fully aware that there are many former fans that insist my best work is behind me. Well, respectfully, I disagree. It’s not easy walking the tightrope between artistic validity and financial solvency, but I stand behind all of the decisions I have made to date. What matters to me is that EVERYONE reading this knows that I take my career, my music, and my fans EXTREMELY SERIOUSLY. When I started in music 25 years ago, my mission was to provide an alternative, to expand the scope of choice available to music lovers like myself; and above all to demonstrate a willingness to go the extra mile and put the MAXIMUM EFFORT in EVERYTHING I DO, so that the bar continues to be raised, not lowered. Whether that manifests itself on stage, on record, or as a character in a video game, I honestly feel that I have given it my best, win or lose, and I’m proud of that. I have to believe that your continued support is a vote of confidence, which I take great comfort in as I strive to create some of my best work to date.

I may not be the best looking dude out there…I may not be the most linked-in, the most prolific, the most successful…but I’ll be god-damned if I’m not up there with the most passionate. If you agree with what I’m saying, that so much music we’re fed is utter GARBAGE that insults the intelligence, then no matter where you’re at…the States, the UK, France, Japan, Canada, Australia, wherever…we’re ALL outsiders, and we owe it to each other to band together and fight for something better. Personally, I’m loving the challenge, and when the time is right, I look forward to reconnecting with all of you.

Until then…

DJ Shadow

DJ Shadow is gone off of the net because of you.

I basically think he's right though - a large part of the music-listening world has been engaging in magical thinking for the past decade.

The internet backlash is gonna be big this year

would prob be good for me

too long.. didnt read

Brainfreeze is outstanding.

Oh, and both sides of the "In/Flux" single.. Classic x 999999999999999

it may be... his FINEST hour!

https://www.djshadow.com/news/shadows-starting-new-year-bang-check-out-his-latest-journal-entry-here

WARNING: RAMBLING TIRADE FROM A 37-YEAR OLD TECHNOPHOBE BELOW

Well, here we are again, another year, another decade. Optimism about the future is tempered with a nagging sense that underlying factors causing most of the misery in the world still exist. Lucky, then, that I’m a musician and not a politician.

Specifically, when it comes to the wallet, everyone’s suffering…of that there can be no doubt. And what of the financial prospects for musicians and recording artists in the years to come? Shaky, at best. Unless you’re one of the grotesque ‘Idol’-type pop disasters in the top 5, you’re looking at getting a day job or finding other sources of income. Conventional wisdom amongst my peers has been remarkably short-sided over the last decade: “Yeah, CD sales are down, but all the money is in licensing.” Not anymore. “Yeah, licensing money is down, but the video game industry is killing it.” Less so these days, according to recent data. “Well, the real money is in touring.” Really? When was the last time you saw a ‘new,’ post-record company artist headline a major music festival? At this rate, we’ll be stuck with Coldplay for decades (no offense intended).

Time for a little straight talk, from one reasonably intelligent human being to YOU, the reasonably intelligent reader. As distasteful as it may sound, the fact is that so many of our heroes: Jimi Hendrix, John Coltrane, The Beatles, whoever you care to name; generated much of their best art in return for financial compensation. If you take away the compensation, guess what…the art stops. For example, how many young rap artists are grinding away these days in New York, trying to get a deal? Not too many, certainly compared to the ‘80s and ‘90s. There’s no allure, no pot at the end of the rainbow. People have been asking for years now, “Where’s the next Nas, the next Jay-Z?” Be prepared to keep waiting…and for music, overall, to keep sucking. Why? Because only bottom-of-the-barrel, embarrassing pop tripe generates enough income to feed the machine. Anything unproven or risky? Nobody’s going to bankroll that kind of ‘experiment.’

Let me be clear: I love music. I love the culture of music, making music, playing music, geeking out over music from the past and present. I love old record company stories, and the characters that inhabited it. In other words, I have learned to appreciate the merchants of commerce as well as the art. If you love movies or cars, chances are you can relate to what I’m describing. What would Hollywood be without the larger-than-life, audacious personalities behind the scenes? What would cars be like if there had never been Detroit?

Gone are the recording studios (including the historically important Plant down the road from me in Sausalito), the record shops, and the music magazines. Replaced by the oh-so-cynical, oh-so-corrosive AM talk radio of the new millennium, the Internet. But I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know. Chances are, you may have even been one of those majority who danced on the grave of the falling record companies, pointed to Radiohead giving their album away for free and said, “See, look, if they can do it, why can’t everyone else?” Slowly, I turn…

Every artist is entitled to their own price point, just as every consumer has a choice in what they purchase. Nobody puts a gun to someone’s head and says, “Hey, buy this Picasso for 20 million.” Likewise, if $9.99 is too much to spend for one of my albums, so be it, your choice. But if you’re holding your breath, waiting for me to boost my cool-quotient by giving my music away for free, it’s not going to happen. The fact is that I feel my music has value. You may disagree, and that’s fine. But I know how much energy I put into what I do, and how long it takes me to make something I’m satisfied with. Giving that away just feels wrong to me. It’s not about money per se; I can donate a large sum of money to charity and not think twice, but I won’t give my art away. I’d rather sell it to 100 people who value it as I do than give it away to 1000 who could care less. That’s MY choice.

I realize these are all unpopular subjects. Artists are never supposed to address their flock about such icky subjects as business and commerce. (By the way, and I hope it doesn’t sound disingenuous, but now would be a REALLY good time to express my undying THANKS for your support, which matters IMMENSELY in my ability to retain music as my primary endeavor. As a fan of others, I always used to wonder, “does this artist or group really care about whether I buy their stuff or not? Do they care that I go to their show?” YES, WE CARE!!!!! Now, more than ever). Most think that I should stop whining, grow up and embrace the Internet, become more active, tweet more, hype more, give more stuff away, etc, etc. Honestly, I’ve tried…and will keep trying. But the bottom line is that not every paradigm or system is right for everyone. We’ve all been told for years that the Internet is our Savior; it’s cool, youthful, hip, the solution to every problem, and if you aren’t joining a new networking site on a weekly basis, you’re a social pariah. Sorry…I just don’t feel that way. I’m old enough to know that when 99% of the population is marching lockstep in one direction, sometimes it’s wise to break rank and go the other way. Plus, I simply don’t like sitting in front of a computer screen all day.

I’m not saying that I don’t use the Internet on a regular basis; I do. And obviously I’m very proud of this site and its ability to support itself through the store. Honestly, I just think a large portion of the dialogue and content available online is an utter shit fest: a Pandora’s box of violence, neurosis, bad impulses, and bad intentions. It has become the “Super Horror Show” the Last Poets could never have dreamed of, like bad television on steroids and angel dust simultaneously. CL Smooth memorably called television “a schism…negative realism.” And much like the TV of the ‘60s and ‘70s, you will NEVER hear or read anything negative about the Internet ON the Internet. There’s too much money to be made, by someone somewhere (and hey, why ruffle the feathers of the goose that’s laying the golden egg, right?). 20 years from now, it will be interesting to see what hindsight reveals. I predict a flag on the time-line: when we moved closer to becoming a passionless, listless, hollowed-out society, one in which art and nature could no longer provide the psychological shock to the system required to endure another harrowing day of terror alerts and super-bugs. Music can only suggest sex and violence…the Internet provides both, full frontal and full strength, 24/7. Maximum dose.

Whatever…what will be will be. As long as I breathe, I’ll make music, love music, support music. I used to get in fights at school to defend my right to listen to rap, and I’ll fight on against any institution or prevailing thinking that seeks to dictate to me how and when the music I make is to be disseminated. If there’s 50 of you, or 100, or more out there willing to accept my right to choose, as I accept yours, then welcome aboard…you are my fan base. The rest of you that don’t, and want me to play someone else’s game…I wish you well. Let’s just leave the subject at that and call it what it is: a mutual misunderstanding.

Regardless, it’s going to be a hell of a year. I am working hard on new music, and hope to share some of it with you in the coming months (really!). I’m fully aware that there are many former fans that insist my best work is behind me. Well, respectfully, I disagree. It’s not easy walking the tightrope between artistic validity and financial solvency, but I stand behind all of the decisions I have made to date. What matters to me is that EVERYONE reading this knows that I take my career, my music, and my fans EXTREMELY SERIOUSLY. When I started in music 25 years ago, my mission was to provide an alternative, to expand the scope of choice available to music lovers like myself; and above all to demonstrate a willingness to go the extra mile and put the MAXIMUM EFFORT in EVERYTHING I DO, so that the bar continues to be raised, not lowered. Whether that manifests itself on stage, on record, or as a character in a video game, I honestly feel that I have given it my best, win or lose, and I’m proud of that. I have to believe that your continued support is a vote of confidence, which I take great comfort in as I strive to create some of my best work to date.

I may not be the best looking dude out there…I may not be the most linked-in, the most prolific, the most successful…but I’ll be god-damned if I’m not up there with the most passionate. If you agree with what I’m saying, that so much music we’re fed is utter GARBAGE that insults the intelligence, then no matter where you’re at…the States, the UK, France, Japan, Canada, Australia, wherever…we’re ALL outsiders, and we owe it to each other to band together and fight for something better. Personally, I’m loving the challenge, and when the time is right, I look forward to reconnecting with all of you.

Until then…

DJ Shadow

what's the boldface summary of that?

ie i cannae be fucked to read it.

"Fuck you I won't do what you tell me" iirc

IF YOU DONT BUY MUSIC WITH MONEY PEOPLE WILL STOP MAKING MUSIC EXCEPT SIMON COWELL.

WARNING: RAMBLING TIRADE FROM A 37-YEAR OLD TECHNOPHOBE BELOW

Well, here we are again, another year, another decade. Optimism about the future is tempered with a nagging sense that underlying factors causing most of the misery in the world still exist. Lucky, then, that I’m a musician and not a politician.

Specifically, when it comes to the wallet, everyone’s suffering…of that there can be no doubt. And what of the financial prospects for musicians and recording artists in the years to come? Shaky, at best. Unless you’re one of the grotesque ‘Idol’-type pop disasters in the top 5, you’re looking at getting a day job or finding other sources of income. Conventional wisdom amongst my peers has been remarkably short-sided over the last decade: “Yeah, CD sales are down, but all the money is in licensing.” Not anymore. “Yeah, licensing money is down, but the video game industry is killing it.” Less so these days, according to recent data. “Well, the real money is in touring.” Really? When was the last time you saw a ‘new,’ post-record company artist headline a major music festival? At this rate, we’ll be stuck with Coldplay for decades (no offense intended).

Time for a little straight talk, from one reasonably intelligent human being to YOU, the reasonably intelligent reader. As distasteful as it may sound, the fact is that so many of our heroes: Jimi Hendrix, John Coltrane, The Beatles, whoever you care to name; generated much of their best art in return for financial compensation. If you take away the compensation, guess what…the art stops. For example, how many young rap artists are grinding away these days in New York, trying to get a deal? Not too many, certainly compared to the ‘80s and ‘90s. There’s no allure, no pot at the end of the rainbow. People have been asking for years now, “Where’s the next Nas, the next Jay-Z?” Be prepared to keep waiting…and for music, overall, to keep sucking. Why? Because only bottom-of-the-barrel, embarrassing pop tripe generates enough income to feed the machine. Anything unproven or risky? Nobody’s going to bankroll that kind of ‘experiment.’

Let me be clear: I love music. I love the culture of music, making music, playing music, geeking out over music from the past and present. I love old record company stories, and the characters that inhabited it. In other words, I have learned to appreciate the merchants of commerce as well as the art. If you love movies or cars, chances are you can relate to what I’m describing. What would Hollywood be without the larger-than-life, audacious personalities behind the scenes? What would cars be like if there had never been Detroit?

Gone are the recording studios (including the historically important Plant down the road from me in Sausalito), the record shops, and the music magazines. Replaced by the oh-so-cynical, oh-so-corrosive AM talk radio of the new millennium, the Internet. But I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know. Chances are, you may have even been one of those majority who danced on the grave of the falling record companies, pointed to Radiohead giving their album away for free and said, “See, look, if they can do it, why can’t everyone else?” Slowly, I turn…

Every artist is entitled to their own price point, just as every consumer has a choice in what they purchase. Nobody puts a gun to someone’s head and says, “Hey, buy this Picasso for 20 million.” Likewise, if $9.99 is too much to spend for one of my albums, so be it, your choice. But if you’re holding your breath, waiting for me to boost my cool-quotient by giving my music away for free, it’s not going to happen. The fact is that I feel my music has value. You may disagree, and that’s fine. But I know how much energy I put into what I do, and how long it takes me to make something I’m satisfied with. Giving that away just feels wrong to me. It’s not about money per se; I can donate a large sum of money to charity and not think twice, but I won’t give my art away. I’d rather sell it to 100 people who value it as I do than give it away to 1000 who could care less. That’s MY choice.

I realize these are all unpopular subjects. Artists are never supposed to address their flock about such icky subjects as business and commerce. (By the way, and I hope it doesn’t sound disingenuous, but now would be a REALLY good time to express my undying THANKS for your support, which matters IMMENSELY in my ability to retain music as my primary endeavor. As a fan of others, I always used to wonder, “does this artist or group really care about whether I buy their stuff or not? Do they care that I go to their show?” YES, WE CARE!!!!! Now, more than ever). Most think that I should stop whining, grow up and embrace the Internet, become more active, tweet more, hype more, give more stuff away, etc, etc. Honestly, I’ve tried…and will keep trying. But the bottom line is that not every paradigm or system is right for everyone. We’ve all been told for years that the Internet is our Savior; it’s cool, youthful, hip, the solution to every problem, and if you aren’t joining a new networking site on a weekly basis, you’re a social pariah. Sorry…I just don’t feel that way. I’m old enough to know that when 99% of the population is marching lockstep in one direction, sometimes it’s wise to break rank and go the other way. Plus, I simply don’t like sitting in front of a computer screen all day.

I’m not saying that I don’t use the Internet on a regular basis; I do. And obviously I’m very proud of this site and its ability to support itself through the store. Honestly, I just think a large portion of the dialogue and content available online is an utter shit fest: a Pandora’s box of violence, neurosis, bad impulses, and bad intentions. It has become the “Super Horror Show” the Last Poets could never have dreamed of, like bad television on steroids and angel dust simultaneously. CL Smooth memorably called television “a schism…negative realism.” And much like the TV of the ‘60s and ‘70s, you will NEVER hear or read anything negative about the Internet ON the Internet. There’s too much money to be made, by someone somewhere (and hey, why ruffle the feathers of the goose that’s laying the golden egg, right?). 20 years from now, it will be interesting to see what hindsight reveals. I predict a flag on the time-line: when we moved closer to becoming a passionless, listless, hollowed-out society, one in which art and nature could no longer provide the psychological shock to the system required to endure another harrowing day of terror alerts and super-bugs. Music can only suggest sex and violence…the Internet provides both, full frontal and full strength, 24/7. Maximum dose.

Whatever…what will be will be. As long as I breathe, I’ll make music, love music, support music. I used to get in fights at school to defend my right to listen to rap, and I’ll fight on against any institution or prevailing thinking that seeks to dictate to me how and when the music I make is to be disseminated. If there’s 50 of you, or 100, or more out there willing to accept my right to choose, as I accept yours, then welcome aboard…you are my fan base. The rest of you that don’t, and want me to play someone else’s game…I wish you well. Let’s just leave the subject at that and call it what it is: a mutual misunderstanding.

Regardless, it’s going to be a hell of a year. I am working hard on new music, and hope to share some of it with you in the coming months (really!). I’m fully aware that there are many former fans that insist my best work is behind me. Well, respectfully, I disagree. It’s not easy walking the tightrope between artistic validity and financial solvency, but I stand behind all of the decisions I have made to date. What matters to me is that EVERYONE reading this knows that I take my career, my music, and my fans EXTREMELY SERIOUSLY. When I started in music 25 years ago, my mission was to provide an alternative, to expand the scope of choice available to music lovers like myself; and above all to demonstrate a willingness to go the extra mile and put the MAXIMUM EFFORT in EVERYTHING I DO, so that the bar continues to be raised, not lowered. Whether that manifests itself on stage, on record, or as a character in a video game, I honestly feel that I have given it my best, win or lose, and I’m proud of that. I have to believe that your continued support is a vote of confidence, which I take great comfort in as I strive to create some of my best work to date.

I may not be the best looking dude out there…I may not be the most linked-in, the most prolific, the most successful…but I’ll be god-damned if I’m not up there with the most passionate. If you agree with what I’m saying, that so much music we’re fed is utter GARBAGE that insults the intelligence, then no matter where you’re at…the States, the UK, France, Japan, Canada, Australia, wherever…we’re ALL outsiders, and we owe it to each other to band together and fight for something better. Personally, I’m loving the challenge, and when the time is right, I look forward to reconnecting with all of you.

Until then…

DJ Shadow

That's kind of how I break it down to an extent

its a good read.

IF YOU DONT BUY MUSIC WITH MONEY PEOPLE WILL STOP MAKING MUSIC

i think he's mostly right, and you're kidding yourself if you think toherwise.

old josh really starting to sound like archetypical ilm semi-newbie about to go postal there ^^^^^^^^^^

poor lad we should invite him along

I think he's right but y'know blacksmiths and coalminers also crushed by the wheels of progress.

I think he's mostly right, too. I see no future for creativity if creativity is not rewarded.

Hang on I don't really think he's right at all. Death to the lol Free Market.

nah hes mostly OTM

it reminds me of the rants by the guy from that film network but more rational and sane

And much like the TV of the ‘60s and ‘70s, you will NEVER hear or read anything negative about the Internet ON the Internet.

this is a headscratcher for sure

Don't have any real bone to pick with his assessment of the music industry tho, I mean I guess most of us are rolling our eyes at lines like "so much music we’re fed is utter GARBAGE that insults the intelligence" at this point but eh it's DJ Shadow, what d'you expect him to say

yeah i mean we could pull apart the odd details of what he's saying quite easily, but the central thrust is still pretty true: if people don't pay for music then a lot less music is going to get made.

I mean I guess most of us are rolling our eyes at lines like "so much music we’re fed is utter GARBAGE that insults the intelligence" at this point

same as it ever was but i reckon its the other stuff that'll dry up first tbh

"the central thrust is still pretty true: if people don't pay for music then a lot less music is going to get made"

Yes, and his description of the Internet hell is pretty faithful too.

i haven't read it but the dude fucking made 'endtroducing' aged 25 or something so cut him some slack.

Cut him a ton of slack for his music but I am intrigued by this "music relies on market forces waaah market forces are killing music" argument.

It's not market forces that are killing music, it's a sudden, rapid, and radical change in distribution methods that labels and artists, for the most part, haven't been able to keep up with. Market forces haven't quite adapted yet either.

Em's just read the Alex James autobio and there's a bit towards the end where Alex meets the drummer or bassist or guitarist from Coldplay, one of the ones who looks like a potato, in a bar or at an aftershow or something, and says that he seems like a nice guy but very earnest and all he can offer conversation-wise is talk about how they've just developed a new strategy for expanding North American markets blah blah business speak. And my inference is that Alex James thought he was an alien for not leaving that side of things for someone else to worry about and concentrating on playing music / hanging out in The Groucho / making cheese / etc etc etc.

Not sure why I posted that, tbh.

Also this morning there was something on the radio about album covers being made into stamps and they played clips from a song off each album that's been stampified, and it was, like, You can't Always Get What You Want, and London Calling, and Starman, and they all sounded like great, classic, well-written pop songs for the ages, and then they played a big of the instrumental piano line from Clocks and it sounded like incidental BBC music rather than like a pop song for the ages.

Not sure why I posted that, tbh.

big = bit

funny that shadow wrote that bit about coldplay though as the outsider had quite a few mock-chris martin sounding songs on it.

Why hop-hop sucks in 2010; it's the lack of money.

"It's not market forces that are killing music, it's a sudden, rapid, and radical change in distribution methods that labels and artists, for the most part, haven't been able to keep up with. Market forces haven't quite adapted yet either"

This, and the fact that (for several reasons) music isn't at the moment perceived as something with an inherent economic value. With some interesting consequences, like bands giving away their music for free while sell through their site t-shirts and mugs.

eternal respect to The Shad, but that was a pretty boring rant I've read a thousand times before

"At this rate, we’ll be stuck with Coldplay for decades (no offense intended)."

Really, no offense intended? None?

Overall, I'm with Blueski - this article could have been posted 5 years ago. Or, replace 'internet' with 'tv' and just post it anytime in the past 50 years.

"20 years from now, it will be interesting to see what hindsight reveals. I predict a flag on the time-line: when we moved closer to becoming a passionless, listless, hollowed-out society, one in which art and nature could no longer provide the psychological shock to the system required to endure another harrowing day of terror alerts and super-bugs."

Yep, 20 years from now they're going to put a flag on 2010 to say 'this is when we became listless, and disinterested in art'. Because right up until that point, everyone was on board. They were giddy, exciting times the 00's, or 90's, anon

Why hop-hop sucks in 2010; it's the lack of money.

― exploding angel vagina (Scik Mouthy), Thursday, January 7, 2010 4:01 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark

!

What utter nonsense.

"the central thrust is still pretty true: if people don't pay for music then a lot less music is going to get made"

There seems be a real lack of music being made in the last decade, doesn't there. . . oh wait there is still a lot of music out there isn't there.

Sorry your old business model is fucked, Shadow, but it was a pretty fucked model for the most part anyway so whatever.

I don't really understand what people mean by "the old business model" - as though every label followed the same business model. Not every label is some sleazeball conglomerate - in fact in the years just before the internet we were seeing plenty of alternate business models springing up and doing quite well. The way things are going now hurt those too. But whatever helps you feel morally sanctified in getting everything for free.

"“When I started getting in touch with people who’d made the records it gave me a bit of a conscience,” he admits. “As a result I have no problem clearing big uses. But I feel that I’m a collage artist and if I use 60 songs on a record I can’t have 60 different lawyers claiming 75 per cent...... They can chuck me in jail if they want"

Shadown on sample clearance.

Now, I don't usually care two jots about sample clearance, but I also don't write 2 page long diatribes about the crumbling music industry all being the consumers fault. I do find it a little odd that a man who makes music from other peoples music, and doesn't think it would be at all realistic to pay everyone for their music, doesn't consider that this might make him look a little foolish as he's typing up his little blog post.

There seems be a real lack of music being made in the last decade, doesn't there. . . oh wait there is still a lot of music out there isn't there.

haha yeah, and how can there be climate shange if it still snowing in winter amirite

how about "an activity that human beings have always engaged in isn't going to disappear because 1 mode of production/distribution disappears" lol death to the music industry

"haha yeah, and how can there be climate shange if it still snowing in winter amirite"

I'm sure when all music ceases to be produced we'll all look back and regret not listening more to Al Gore.

Sorry your old business model is fucked, Shadow, but it was a pretty fucked model for the most part anyway so whatever.

― Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Saturday, January 9, 2010 3:43 AM (11 hours ago) Bookmark

yeah, it sucked! all that terrible, terrible music put out over the last 60 years, god.

Too bad that terrible music didn't stopped getting produced in 1999.

Anyway I'm sure there will be a clever solution at some point to this conundrum of the 00s and we'll all look back on these diatribes and laugh. Or maybe not and music will just 'oh the horror' cease to exist.

Conventional wisdom amongst my peers has been remarkably short-sided over the last decade: “Yeah, CD sales are down, but all the money is in licensing.” Not anymore. “Yeah, licensing money is down, but the video game industry is killing it.” Less so these days, according to recent data. “Well, the real money is in touring.” Really? When was the last time you saw a ‘new,’ post-record company artist headline a major music festival?

I think this bit is true. There's still tons of "new model" "gurus" a line that folks will make all their money form merch/touring/ads that ignores all sense.

Not every label is some sleazeball conglomerate - in fact in the years just before the internet we were seeing plenty of alternate business models springing up and doing quite well. The way things are going now hurt those too.

this.

But whatever helps you feel morally sanctified in getting everything for free.

this too.

"if I use 60 songs on a record I can’t have 60 different lawyers claiming 75 per cent...... They can chuck me in jail if they want"

this too?

Boo hoo. Life sucks for lots of people. Musicians don't have a monopoly on that (hello newspaper reporters and autoworkers!) and frankly the out-sized sense of entitlement of a dude like DJ Shadow has doesn't make me remotely inclined to want to spend money on his music any more than the equivalent hand-wringing makes me want to buy a newspaper (which I occasionally "steal" by reading online OH NOES or a Chevy which you couldn't pay me to drive). Hey but if it stokes the righteous indignation of you dudes who only ever buy new albums or pay for your downloads then hey good on you.

reading online isn't stealing because its offered for free, downloading stuff that isn't free *is "stealing" sorry if you can't figure that one out

but yeah life sucks for a lot of people so fuck musicians, why should i pay to hear their music rite? this is just like when coal miners were all put out of work by market forces but we still expected them to deliver us coal regardless.

and other analogies that don't fit

I'm trying to work out if that means Bono is either Arthur Scargill or Margaret Thatcher.

Ned I think you have something of a point on sample clearance, but at the same time I think the law on sampling could be a lot more nuanced and do more to differentiate uses - some of Shadow's sample uses are so transformative that they are kind of beyond recognition and at that point I agree it's ridiculous to make him pay each rights holder as though he were P. Diddy doing "I'll Be Missing You". Maybe the solution to that is just some kind of mandatory licensing scheme with much much lower rates. But I don't think it precludes him from thinking that people ought to pay for the music he makes.

Anyway, yeah of course music is still going to be made. It's just going to get made on lower budgets and probably with fewer acts that stick around for the long haul, and probably also with less national touring, that is unless some new model comes along, which I still don't think it has.

I know firsthand and from friends that money DOES affect people's drive to make music and get it to people. I'm not claiming that I or any of my friends are entitled to that money or entitled to get our music out there. I'm just saying that the less money is available from music, the more you have to work, the more you have to reconsider whether you can tour, the less energy and time you have to work on your album, etc. That's to say nothing of label resources - so many albums were made on large advances that let bands take time off to focus creatively, gave them a budget for equipment, production, etc.

Of course you can make albums in your bedroom on a small budget, and a handful of people can even make great albums doing that, but they're not going to be the same kinds of albums, and not every great artist is cut out for that. And then of course you can release your little bedroom album over the internet and market it yourself, but it's most likely not going to reach as many people.

this tired argument depends on what's pretty clearly an empty threat - mp3s have been around for a decade and there hasn't been some universal musician strike. rather, today there's more music being recorded than ever before in history. combine that with distribution costs going down to zero and we have a glut. if billions of oranges were suddenly available everywhere and anywhere and there were oranges on every corner of the street...the price would drop down to zero...and I wouldn't have pity for anyone who then decided to go plant an orange orchard w/ the intention of making money.

if the government could suddenly start effectively policing illegal music downloads, I doubt that people would actually buy that much more music. there's too much (legally) free music out there on myspace etc. and hundreds of thousands of radio stations to listen to.

And then of course you can release your little bedroom album over the internet and market it yourself, but it's most likely not going to reach as many people.

if people like it, it's gonna reach a whole lot more people than it would have 20 years ago.

I know firsthand and from friends that money DOES affect people's drive to make music and get it to people. I'm not claiming that I or any of my friends are entitled to that money or entitled to get our music out there. I'm just saying that the less money is available from music, the more you have to work, the more you have to reconsider whether you can tour, the less energy and time you have to work on your album, etc.

i think this is very true. i mean of course music will still be made if artists aren't making money, but, you know... its an investment of time and effort from the artist, and besides the fact of whether or not that DESERVES renumeration (hint: it does), after a while doing this stuff for little or no money gets wearing. i'm nostalgic for people like blast first's paul smith, for example, who pressed up the Walls HAve Ears Sonic Youth 'bootleg' because he believed that Thurston Moore shouldn't have to work a day job between making music, that he should be able to make a living from music.

scout, the samples question is an interesting one, and the holes in shadow's logic are pretty obvious, but i don't think its completely analogous and i don't think it invalidates shadow's point on this specific issue.

music is kind of boring anyway

not as boring as comedy

if only there was some way of stopping stand-ups from getting paid

its an investment of time and effort from the artist, and besides the fact of whether or not that DESERVES renumeration (hint: it does)

does every investment of time and effort from every artist in the world deserve remuneration? does every garage band deserve to earn money? where does this 'deserve' come from?

if i invest time and money in making a cake, and you consume that cake then i deserve remuneration, don't really see why it should be different with a song?

better question - why do people 'deserve' to be able to download peoples' music for free?

* music that hasn't already been offered by the artist for free, obvs

And then of course you can release your little bedroom album over the internet and market it yourself, but it's most likely not going to reach as many people.

if people like it, it's gonna reach a whole lot more people than it would have 20 years ago.

― iatee, Saturday, January 9, 2010 12:35 PM Bookmark

Is there any evidence of this? Every wildfire internet phenomenon seems to turn out to have paid publicity people behind it.

Stevie, no, agreed, it doesn't make his points invalid, just slightly hypocritical. "I want to be paid for my music, but I've decided by my own reasoning that it's ok not to pay others for theirs.". Further on in that interview he talks about the birth of sample clearance, and clearly enjoys the "fuck the man" mentality of it, the fact that it shook things up. He now just looks a little like your Dad telling you that this is just noise, not like back when he listened to Elvis. It's ok to rail against the man when the man's making you, a poor aspiring dj, pay to use someone elses work. But it's totally NOT ok to rail against the man when the man wants you, some poor kid who can't afford $20 per cd you want, to stop downloading music. I now he has a fair point somewhere in there, but he just sounds very much like the wrong man to be (added to the list of millionaire musicians) making it.

"I’ve been keeping up with the whole sample legalities, and I’ve always been very pro-sampling. You know, back when it was really cool for all the rook fixtures and the pillars of the of the industry to diss it…I’ll never forget this MTV report on sampling in, like, ’89, when all the things were going down with De La Soul and the Turtles. It was just so hip-hop. They were the underdogs going up against these bloated rock and roll mindstates. And as a result, I got really rebellious, and just sort of took the stance of, "Fuck it. I’m just gonna use it.""

Is there any evidence of this? Every wildfire internet phenomenon seems to turn out to have paid publicity people behind it.

I dunno I'm sure you can find plenty of ilx/pitchfork favorites that didn't

Even so, attacking his own hypocrisy is kind of an easy way out of the issue. (xpost)

I dunno I'm sure you can find plenty of ilx/pitchfork favorites that didn't

― iatee, Saturday, January 9, 2010 12:51 PM Bookmark

I'll bet you can't. Pitchfork isn't just going to listen to everything that comes across their desk, and they're certainly not going to say "Wow, here's some dude in his bedroom with no label and no distribution. Let's put it on "best new music" even though he doesn't tour and the only way you can get it is from his myspace page."

better question - why do people 'deserve' to be able to download peoples' music for free?

because there are a lot of 010101010s out there and author of a certain portion of those 010101010s would only be harmed by download X if you come in with the assumption that somebody would otherwise be giving them money - which I think is a pretty naive assumption in 2010.

today there's more music being recorded than ever before in history. combine that with distribution costs going down to zero and we have a glut. if billions of oranges were suddenly available everywhere and anywhere and there were oranges on every corner of the street...the price would drop down to zero...and I wouldn't have pity for anyone who then decided to go plant an orange orchard w/ the intention of making money.

an orange is pretty much like other oranges. if/when newspapers all die out, we'll still have bloggers. just almost all of them will be shit, or otherwise won't have the resources to do the job.

but hey it's a "new business model" granddad.

does every investment of time and effort from every artist in the world deserve remuneration? does every garage band deserve to earn money? where does this 'deserve' come from?

― iatee, Saturday, January 9, 2010 5:43 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark

um, well, yes, if people are listening to their music.

cf your other post:

if people like it, it's gonna reach a whole lot more people than it would have 20 years ago.

this "deserve" comes from a pretty well-established custom that you shouldn't get something for nothing.

I'll bet you can't. Pitchfork isn't just going to listen to everything that comes across their desk, and they're certainly not going to say "Wow, here's some dude in his bedroom with no label and no distribution. Let's put it on "best new music" even though he doesn't tour and the only way you can get it is from his myspace page."

a quick google suggests 'clap you hands say yeah' as a pretty clear example of this.

because there are a lot of 010101010s out there and author of a certain portion of those 010101010s would only be harmed by download X if you come in with the assumption that somebody would otherwise be giving them money - which I think is a pretty naive assumption in 2010.

so your argument is, because you wouldn't be willing to pay for the physical item anyway, you should be allowed to download the 0101010s for free because the artist can't lose a sale that wouldn't have happened in the first place??

yeah that sums it up pretty well actually

would rather be naive than quite so shockingly 'entitled'

welcome to america

no, you're welcome to america

i mean jesus when did ilx become a load of douches saying "yeah we take shit for free but what you going to do its capitalism/america/the internet what you going to do"

i know i know, since day 1

have you paid for every single song, movie and tv show you've watched on your computer?

/listened to

to be quite honest, not *every, no - i get send review copies of a lot of stuff, because peeps wants me to write abt it.

so yeah i'm part of the big bad machine i guess

but you know if someone said 'hey, i wasn't going to buy a copy of that black flag book you slaved over for 18 months anyway, so its alright if i steal a copy right?' i would be pretty fucked off tbh

how about movies and tv shows?

that's not logic that's larceny

xp

have not downloaded movies and tv shows, though i have watched youtubes that probably weren't uploaded by the copyright holders

did you pay for photoshop and every single program on your computer? are you that one person out there who really did pay for every single thing on your computer?

i don't have photoshop, and yeah i paid for my copy of word.

"don't sweat it man everybody does it"

yes: i usually wait to pay full-price for the boxed-set dvd of tv shows that are shown for free.

i've downloaded some music for free (esp during ilx's great ysi phase) but it's intellectually hard to defend. now i don't. i think the one movie i've downloaded was michael moore's 'roger and me', not on dvd. so with the odd exception i don't feel too bad -- but, as i say, it's intellectually hard to defend and im a terrible hypocrite whose views should not be heeded.

did you pay for photoshop and every single program on your computer? are you that one person out there who really did pay for every single thing on your computer?

― iatee, Saturday, January 9, 2010 6:12 PM (21 seconds ago) Bookmark

i stole the whole computer.

they were a rich family and bad things happen to people all the time.

but you know if i was savvy enough to swipe computer programmes off the net, etc, i'd at least admit i was being a cheap cunt, not come up with some bullshit justification for how i "deserved" to have it for free because bill gates is rich and hey fuck it man i wasn't going to give him my money in the first place

I'll bet you can't. Pitchfork isn't just going to listen to everything that comes across their desk, and they're certainly not going to say "Wow, here's some dude in his bedroom with no label and no distribution. Let's put it on "best new music" even though he doesn't tour and the only way you can get it is from his myspace page."

a quick google suggests 'clap you hands say yeah' as a pretty clear example of this.

― iatee, Saturday, January 9, 2010 1:02 PM Bookmark

Clap Your Hands Say Yeah had the same publicist as David Bowie, which might also have something to do with how David Bowie just happened to show up at their shows, which in turn was pretty much the thing that broke them

did they have the publicist from the start?

What does "from the start" mean? They had the publicist when they got big.

i'd at least admit i was being a cheap cunt, not come up with some bullshit justification for how i "deserved" to have it for free because bill gates is rich and hey fuck it man i wasn't going to give him my money in the first place

i mean correct me if i'm wrong but this arguyment wouldn't stand up in court, not even in this place you call 'america'

so the publicist wasn't what made them big

i mean correct me if i'm wrong but this arguyment wouldn't stand up in court, not even in this place you call 'america'

well we're not having a legal argument right now. if we were, I would say yes, you are right, it is illegal to download things.

No, I mean they had the publicist already before they got big.

I mean sorry but you're really fucking naive to buy into this "a million hands across the internets" stuff. It's just a publicity line.

perhaps you should campaign to have the laws changed, your argument is clearly water-tight i don't see how anyone could reasonably object
xp

they were the first thing that came up w/ google search for an example. I don't know anything about them beyond that and I don't think this strain of the argument really matters cause publicists cost money and if the money is disappearing we won't have to worry about them anymore.

perhaps you should campaign to have the laws changed, your argument is clearly water-tight i don't see how anyone could reasonably object

when more people disobey a law than obey it, yeah, maybe it's a law that is gonna have to be changed one day.

But that's exactly the fucking point - it costs money to get people to notice your music.

so when the money disappears people just won't notice music anymore?

when more people disobey a law than obey it, yeah, maybe it's a law that is gonna have to be changed one day.

they say you're a dreamer, but you're not the only one...

when the money disappears the entire infrastructure will disappear. who will found pitchfork, etc?

but i'm sure you've already thought it through this far.

who will found pitchfork?

googlers?

found

When the money disappears I would guess you have more bands that make cheaper albums, have smaller audiences and last for less time.

o brave new world that has such things in it

RIP

a. publicists
b. pitchfork

yeah! fuck the man!

don't you have a free copy of an album to be reviewing?

oh ZING

we may not have money but we can still LAUGH

I would also guess that the exceptions will be bands that are amazingly good at doing their own publicity. I don't think there's anything wrong with that but I don't think it's a good thing to require of every band.

why is that worse than a world where the bands who buy the best publicists get big?

what about a world where bands are post-apocalyptic biker gangs who roam the wastelands of what used to be California fighting each other for precious record contracts?

When the money disappears I would guess you have more bands that make cheaper albums, have smaller audiences and last for less time.

― pithfork (Hurting 2), Saturday, January 9, 2010 6:24 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

otm.

basically "no man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money."

"basically "no man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.""

Lot of blockhead writers out there, I guess.

"When the money disappears I would guess you have more bands that make cheaper albums, have smaller audiences and last for less time."

Poor U2.

yes it is only bands you hate who will be fucked over

that's what makes it alright

It's not "poor U2" it's "There isn't going to be a next U2" except there also isn't going to be a next Talking Heads or a next Nirvanna or a next Steely Dan or a next Michael Jackson or a next Sonic Youth even.

And whatever, maybe that's just the way it is. There was no Sonic Youth of the 1920s, why should there be one of the 2010s? Just saying that you can't expect to keep getting all music for free and not see any impact of any kind on the music.

I'm not saying there isn't going to be any impact. I am just saying that music will a) still be produced and b) I don't really give a shit.

About the plight of musicians that is.

Even bands I like.

Like U2.

oh hey you totally won the battle of who could care less, well done

Woo hoo! I'm off to go buy some used records and paperbacks. Sucks for you, DJ Shadow!

don't buy them all, dj shadow needs to use some to make things to sell us

Again, I don't think it's really about the "plight" of U2 so much as whether the conditions exist for another band like U2 to ever come about again. I mean if all you want to listen to is homemade glitch-hop and cheaply recorded garage bands then it doesn't really matter I guess, but it takes resources to create outsized "artists" of the kind that we're used to from the last four or five decades of music.

forget it, hurting. he doesn't care.

he probably hasn't even bookmarked this thread.

black people don't listen to 'turntablism' anyway

I forgot c) actually which is that this is a done deal so basically any time DJ Shadow spends complaining about for "free" on the internet is time that DJ Shadow should really spend either making more music or searching for a day job.

Admittedly, I'm sure a lot of Shadow's particular bitterness is his own fault for not ever really being able to top his debut and for his last album completely sucking balls.

Yes fans of "outsized artists" should definitely be spending more money on trying to create more "outsized artists". Can't expect the internet to do that for free. Not when there are YouTube videos of Boise State cowbell girl to watch anyway.

I know you're being sarcastic, but that's basically OTM.

I'm not a fan of many new "outsized artists" though so I am more than willing to wait to see how the smarter "outsized artists" figure out this little conundrum.

Well I mean, there aren't as many new "outsized artists", and I can't help but think that might have to do with how much record sales and other revenues are down.

I think all the reunion tours aren't helping out either.

I actually assumed the reunion tours were more a matter of the industry finding it harder to make money off new artists and relying instead on the baby boomer generation. Admittedly, this is really the outer limits of what I give a shit about.

I think the lack of new "outsized artists" (and I think there are a lot of reasons for this lack and free downloads are only one of them, the market has really fractured in ways that prevent all but the biggest blockbuster thing--a la Susan Boyle or Avatar--from taking hold) has helped created a nostalgia market for reunions for older acts w/ respectable (but not huge) audiences. I don't think it's particularly boomer driven either (unless you think the Pixies or Mission of Burma or MBV are boomer acts.)

Anyway now I really am leaving to record shop.

"basically "no man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.""

Lot of blockhead writers out there, I guess.

― Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Saturday, January 9, 2010 7:02 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

pretty much yes, it's called the blogosphere.

I am just saying that music will a) still be produced and b) I don't really give a shit.

― Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Saturday, January 9, 2010 7:26 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

About the plight of musicians that is.

― Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Saturday, January 9, 2010 7:27 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

nice.

Lots of used DJ Shadow records @ Amoeba btw.

DJ Shadow, one of the most ground-breaking, forward-thinking and influential artists in modern music, has delivered two new tunes, “Def Surrounds Us” and “I’ve Been Trying”, directly to a number of record shops across Eastern Europe where he is currently on tour. A limited number of the 12inch only releases, featuring original artwork hand-drawn by the artist, have been given to selected stores in the UK and US. Shadow, who has been working for the last year on his new album which is pencilled for release in May 2011, will be releasing new music as he completes it via limited runs of vinyl and downloads.

The two new tracks will be available for free from www.djshadow.com

on 13th September, and will then be available to buy from iTunes et al from 20th September.

Speaking about this novel way of making his music available DJ Shadow had this to say :

"The idea is 'shop-placing;' it's the opposite of shoplifting. You go into a store, and leave your record in the racks to be discovered later. It's not about being cute, it's about passing the music along in the most unobtrusive way possible. No hype, no shouting, no shot-in-the-void online campaign. Just, 'here you go...I'm glad you found it, and I hope you enjoy it.'"

"All of the covers are different. Some are intricate, some are simple, but the theme is 'don't think, just draw.' Almost like a stream-of-conscious, ongoing series of cartoon doodles."

"I'd rather give away free vinyl than a download, because to me, downloads are so impersonal and soulless. In 2010, it has become akin to sending your Dad an e-card on his birthday; no personality, no class. And from an artistic point of view, I think it sends a negative message about the worth of the music."

"Still, there are plans to eventually offer the music on download...at least for a while. I realize that many people don't use vinyl anymore, and I don't want to be intentionally obscure."
"Then after the dust has settled, I'll see what worked and what didn't. It's all about trying as many different methods as possible, so that when the album comes out next Spring, I'll be informed and hopefully be able to offer an experience that resonates with people beyond the realms of what they're used to."

You go into a store, and leave your record in the racks to be discovered later. It's not about being cute, it's about passing the music along in the most unobtrusive way possible. No hype, no shouting, no shot-in-the-void online campaign. Just, 'here you go...I'm glad you found it, and I hope you enjoy it.'"

THEN YOU DO A BUNCH OF INTERVIEWS ABOUT IT

one of the most ground-breaking, forward-thinking and influential artists in modern music

lol

such a joke, this guy

lol cos hes putting them up for DL anyway but hey i like this guy, even if i dont much care for his music, at least not entroducing, which i still dont really get the appeal of

love most of Shadow's music, he's just one of those guys that shd never do interviews ever

find this sort of thing endearing
obvs i don't agree with him

no, he should do lots of interviews. thats one of the things he does best.

^^^ Praise from Caesar

one of the most ground-breaking, forward-thinking and influential artists in modern music

lol

such a joke, this guy

He was plenty groundbreaking in 1996 and this press release would make a LOT more sense if it was written nearly 15 years ago, but...

setting aside uh 'shop-placing', i don't think there's anything that controversial or dumb about being dissatisfied with releasing music via digital download.

That soul patch is dud.

The last LP was so misguided. Let's hope he can return to form on the next one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suoQtW9UxBI

new one leaked

Anyone hearing this? Drunk in AC right now and its sounding good

It's amaaaaazing! Such a relief after the wtf misstep of The Outsider. Welcome back!

dj shadow is an angry -- and sometimes funny -- fellow (e.g., 10th worst thing about the music industry is "Too much Shakira, not enough Charo. At least Charo was in on the joke.")
.

Just threw on In Tune And On Time. Really solid live dj record. Too bad he fell off so hard -- any standout tracks from his last couple? I can barely listen to them.

He and Cut Chemist are now touring and spinning vinyl from Afrika Baambaata's large vinyl archive. I dunno, kinda would rather hear Baambaata behind the wheels of steel.

can't front on "what does your soul look like", "in/flux / hindsight", "lost & found / s.f.l." EPs imo ... destroy everything else, i think.

i still have the "brain freeze" and "product placement" mixes. very much less than the sum of their parts. it's great music, if sometimes kinda hokey, and the dj'ing is technically great but somehow underwhelming. maybe should listen again.

i also have a thing where q-bert cuts up and scratches over a bunch of dj shadow tracks. really gotta wonder how that's held up to the test of time ...

i think the "brain freeze" / "product placement" issue boils down to they don't know when to stop, they keep piling shit on.

i still like psyence fiction too.

Endtroducing is awesome! Fuck all the revisionist critic shit like "so many fools pretended to like that album when it came out"

have never been convinced by endtroducing. plodding compared to the earlier EPs.

'the private press' is super underrated

by who?!?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Private_Press

^ check the ratings

if anything i would say those tracks are overrated over lots of other "big beat" tracks

i just feel like no one mentions it nowadays when talking about DJ Shadow.

btw there's something a little sad about him becoming just another electronic producer making bangers, even if the tracks are pretty decent (mostly for some fun drum programming, which still sounds like him). not that he could have stuck to samples-only, there's no good solution really.

this dude is the definition of overrated

eugh qbert, goofy turntablism is the worst.
endtroducing in great. Nothing on it as plodding as WDYSLL part two.
private press is not good, he lost the magic.

maybe plodding is the wrong word, i don't really mean slow

parts of endtroducing are great but i lose patience with tracks like "stem / long stem" and "napalm brain / scatter brain"

on the the latter, i agree. i didn't really mean slow either, i guess i just meant "dull"

i treat "what do you look like" as an ambient album

endtroducing and preemptive strike (which i think compiles pre-entroducing EPs and other releases) are fucking tremendous. the rest is garbage

'the private press' is super underrated

― festival culture (Jordan)

Yeah, solid album. Maybe more consistent than Endtroducing, though the highs not as high.

Listened to his latest a few months back, left literally no impression.

I wonder what tunes out of Bambaata's collection he spun last night in Maryland (outside DC) and elsewhere on this tour. I haven't googled it (and didn't go obv).

i still have the "brain freeze" and "product placement" mixes.

I hadn't thought of these in years, but for the last few days I've been having some moderate g.i. issues and during one of these episodes I heard a voice in my head saying "Hey. Martial Arts fan. Are you ready to have your GUTS kicked out?"

his tracks on the first headz comp have aged v well too (a different version of the cut on pre-emptive strike). as a dj/producer his stuff w/latyrx and that first quannum LP are pretty underrated imho.

would be interesting to see of the headz comps still hold up, i remember really like them when they came out but i haven't listened in years

I hadn't thought of these in years, but for the last few days I've been having some moderate g.i. issues and during one of these episodes I heard a voice in my head saying "Hey. Martial Arts fan. Are you ready to have your GUTS kicked out?"

― how's life, Tuesday, September 9, 2014 12:19 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol yes!

I think that if you don't like Endtroducing you pretty much just don't like shoegazey instrumental hip-hop as a concept, because it really doesn't get any better than that record, or even close to it.

As for Preemptive Strike, I still love this track a lot, which is EXTREMELY plodding and shoegazey.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6dD3OMiWO0

love that track so much

One of the rare groove drum samples in that track:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFHkVXt47fI

The Private Press is also pretty solid. Speaking of samples I still hear in my head all the time -- "ECOUTEZ-TEZ SIT-A-VOUS-VOUS POUR LE DANCE-DANCE-DANCE"

Somehow he really lost it after that though. I feel like he increasingly tried to demonstrate "versatility" or something instead of continuing to refine and develop the style he was good at.

yea i remember some bullshit about "imitators" and how everybody tried to steal his style and that he wanted to put out music that no one could imitate

could would want to

Just stumbled onto this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ArSb3lCc28

he's still inspired as fuck when it comes to mixing (or was 2 years ago)

Made me want to give The Less You Know the Better another chance, it's not as bad as I remembered so far.

Entroducing resonated with me at the time of its release. It broke my mould

Until then, I listened to almost 100% 'punk' guitar and all its forerunners and derivatives.

I bought a new turntable last week and gave this a spin, expecting to be underwhelmed. I have since continued to devour 'guitar' , but in tandem a lot of that other 'electronic' stuff. Loads of music.

Perhaps it was my)non specific) life events that coincided in 1996 (mainly drunk and out having a 'great' time) that left a huge scar I cannot fathom?

I'm totally comfortable ,sat in on a saturday nigh - not wanting to go out- waiting for England to lose at football My wife and kid are playing lego in the front room and I have little inclination to join them . I'm listening to this and it remains fucking gorgeous. Especially side 4. But, not a dud on there. It still really moves me.

I don't care about the semantics. So, why the fuck did I post this red rag...

This is the first promising thing I've heard from him in a number of years:

https://soundcloud.com/massappealrecs/dj-shadow-the-mountain-will-fall?utm_source=soundcloud&utm_campaign=wtshare&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_content=https%3A%2F%2Fsoundcloud.com%2Fmassappealrecs%2Fdj-shadow-the-mountain-will-fall

?utm_source=soundcloud&utm_campaign=wtshare&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_content=https%3A%2F%2Fsoundcloud.com%2Fmassappealrecs%2Fdj-shadow-the-mountain-will-fall

*barf* trap beats + sidechain compression. he needs to stop trying to be hip with the kids.

Yeah, this is totally boring.

he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. either he repeats his samples & breaks records for diminishing returns or he's just another Low End Theory-ish Soundcloud producer. i feel bad for him.

He should just produce for Bay Area rappers and not worry about his brand. And maybe release more often so it's not some big buzz worthy thing when he does idk

Enh, I dunno. Maybe I'm being too harsh. I do think he's a talented guy with a great ear for developing interesting ideas. He just seems to have imposed upon himself a set of "rules" that he follows too closely.

I do wish that I liked him post-Private Press, but nothing has ever really clicked for me since then.

i liked that one song with david banner

i think of the Gaslamp Killer as one ideal version of what DJS could have evolved into, blending obscure samples and live breaks + synths + turntablism in a way that sounds fresh and personal.

I liked this until the beat came in, then I was out. And the stuff that I liked, I can get from other people. Endtroducing is amazing enough that I can happily let it stand alone as an amazing achievement and not bother with the rest of his catalog (though I do like the early stuff gathered up on Pre-Emptive Strike).

i think of the Gaslamp Killer as one ideal version of what DJS could have evolved into, blending obscure samples and live breaks + synths + turntablism in a way that sounds fresh and personal.

― sam jax sax jam (Jordan), Saturday, April 9, 2016 12:48 PM (41 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah i thought his recent live album (featuring live musicians, iirc) was really interesting, it really goes all over the place and hangs together pretty nicely.

Taking in photographs and articles from/in regards to Charlottesville while listening to Preemptive Strike. Eerily soothing.

in/flux is his best track

I might agree... it's a masterful lovely garden of samples

I saw him a couple weeks ago, it was a pretty good show. Pretty spectacular digital effects, played lots of oldie-goodies. He was a little grumpy as a stage presence, but that seemed in keeping with his overall persona. He wore a T-shirt from a local record store that he'd been shopping at that afternoon, which was cool.

yes but which version of in/flux is the better version?

Headz version is my favourite

is Endtroducing... the best album to start with?

it's the best one to start and end with

P much OTM. Incredibly aptly named now that I think about it.

There are a bunch of other tracks from his catalogue that I like but that’s the only essential album.

you could start with the "Preemptive Strike" compilation of early singles, then go to Entroducing, then stop.

Private Press has a few really good tracks, and it's worth hearing at least one of his live things (Brainfreeze, Product Placement etc.)

sic otm

here is how i would rank the essential material

what does your soul look like EP > zimbabwe legit - doing damage in my native language (shadow's legitimate mix) (track) > in/flux (track) > > lost and found (track) > endtroducing

such a good album cover

https://img.discogs.com/elXT78Q80EgbVCaJRUjWdtLnYXM=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-3467-1253735604.jpeg.jpg

Private Press still my favorite in 2018

Private Press has some jams man I love the joint that flips Paul Simon

'lost and found' was my introduction to shadow, still think it's one of his best songs and it sucks that's it's not on pre-emptive strike iirc. maybe bono blocked it?

Private Press still my favorite in 2018

agreed

his recent rap collabs have been pretty listenable imo

this remix of 6 days is a soundtrack classic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUlqk1F3wn0

this one was kinda ~balaeric~

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7rZGZLbsLs

'high noon' and 'organ doner' are also classic non-endtroducing cuts. tbh i think every album of his is inconsistent or has boring parts, but there's peaks across the whole catalog (until he started making hyphy music)

I've been trying to figure out where the hell I put my signed Private Press tour poster. Hope I didn't lose it in a move.

I'd say something about how it seems like forever ago that I was hanging around listening to Endtroducing and all the random remixes and singles a friend had hoarded, but it really has been twenty years!

the headz version of influx is the best one btw

organ donor was on endtroducing, just not the "(extended overhaul)" version which is essential

oh yeah i'm thinking of that one

I still feel like the kool g rap feature from unkle goes extremely hard

Pre emptive is as essential as endtrouducing. Private press has blood on the motorway which is classic

unkle is similar to shadow in that they started strong and dropped off with quickness

I still feel like the kool g rap feature from unkle goes extremely hard

― Vapor waif (uptown churl), Monday, March 12, 2018 1:05 PM (twenty-three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

agree

Pre emptive is as essential as endtrouducing. Private press has blood on the motorway which is classic

― kolakube (Ross), Monday, March 12, 2018 1:16 PM (twelve minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this was the other one i was gonna mention from that album. three high points miminimum

Fixed Income, Walkie Talkie, Six Days are my favs from that one. Also still think a lot about "ECOUTEZ/COUTEZ/COUTEZ SIT A VOUS/AVOUS/AVOUS POUR LE DANCE/DANCE/DANCE"

I can’t recall exactly what tracks I liked off private press, I just remember the drums being sick as fuck

some of the longer tracks on preemptive strike are so good

in/flux

prefer the Headz version to the Pre Emptive Strike one

i like both!

Everybody otm. I also like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RFtLELeXVU

This is v good fun too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dfmpeo85IMs

http://www.waxpoetics.com/blog/features/gallery/dj-shadow-begins/

I'll defend the Private Press and its surrounding b-sides/remixes.

Ultimately it was disappointing, but how could he have possibly improved on Endtroducing? That being said, I've always thought 'Six Days' and 'Blood on the Motorway' are as good as anything from Endtroducing.

I’m not brimming with confidence that this is a broadly applicable opinion and it probably wouldn’t have been possible anyway, but: I feel like if Shadow had been able to put out Psyence Fiction as his sophomore album (instead of a friendly jumpstart for James Lavelle’s solo project that Lavelle would largely fail to build on) then The Private Press would’ve been a perfectly acceptable third record. His audience would have gotten the Endtroducing sound but bigger, more lavish, and with special guests, and they’d be looking for the kind of differences that Private Press offered instead of clamoring for the former thing from a record that didn’t have it. I’m not saying it would’ve necessarily prevented the panic spiral that constituted the next decade or so of his career, but he’d at least have been in a better headspace to avoid it.

All of this of course being predicated upon my (admittedly not universal) opinion that Psyence Fiction lives up to the weighty reputation of Endtroducing, but even given the less charitable takes on that record I think it’d survive the sophomore-record scrutiny better than The Private Press did.

That's a good point, psyence was definitely a transitional record

does he still do a quick break in the middle of organ donor to do it "live" by having the different organ notes on different sampler pads? it's one of those ideas that is so goofy that it worked

This remix is also pretty essential

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYE2x3gVMuM

Private Press still my favorite in 2018

― change display name (Jordan), Monday, March 12, 2018 4:22 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

100% agree ... it's the only DJ Shadow album that I still listen to.

Shadow also deserves a lot of credit for his work as a funk/breaks DJ imo, and as far as I can tell he was kind of on the leading edge of the whole rare funk thing that blew up later.

i mean, rap producers were, lol but yeah

man alive otm

dj shadow / cut chemist - freeze dvd is an essential document as well

I highly recommend listening to his "Gourmet Dog Shit" ep of the Dogpatch podcast!

https://imgur.com/gallery/ZsH1UM2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpVpUb78YzA

excited for this! i like the single.

https://i.imgur.com/2CHgQA0.jpg

couldn't make it through more than 10 seconds of any track on new album. really unpleasant music.

whoa jesus that bad???! Like The Outsider bad? his last was fairly decent given its submission towards current trends rather than attempting to redefine his sound on top of it.

more unlistenable than Jesus is King?

lol Kanye + gospel could not be more repellant to me, haven't heard it
this sounds like a shitty mowax album from 2002 you'd find in discount bins 2 months after it was released. No idea what he was going for, it's all over the place. Either tuneless techno workouts or boring aimless triphop.

the 2nd half is with rappers huh. Not as bad as 1st but I just don't have the energy now to dig thru it for possible gems.

his songs with rappers are almost never good, at least post-Solesides

mo'wax went under in 2002 and only released a couple of things that year, but they stand out among the best in the mo'wax catalog

1. jordan fields' luminous deep house album "moments in dub"

2. parsley sound's elephant-six-alike s/t album

3. dj shadow's "the private press"

also released a couple of mostly forgettable but otherwise acceptable singles by skelf (howie b doing progressive breaks) and malcolm catto that year

but no aimless trip hop or tuneless techno in 2002

Lol wtf

just sayin

Mo wax didn't seem exactly right to me but I couldn't think of another label from around then plus shadow was involved with them and good god it's a simile I didn't expect the music nerd police

i didn't expect the music nerd police

on ILM?

ha. Private Press is great and heartfelt.

his songs with rappers are almost never good, at least post-Solesides

I liked the De La track that came out a few months ago, could have taken an EP of them teaming up

mo'wax went under in 2002 and only ...

I love this place sometimes.

this is a terrible album tho

ha i listened to that Parsley Sounds album 100 times. That's what Elephant 6 sounds like? I should check those guy out

i just got that mixed up in my head with "Cage the Elephant" who is someone i saw Beck was touring with

pay me no mind

I have that Parsley Sound album, need to listen to it again.

Picked up the new DJ Shadow because I’d been listening to ‘Endtroducing’ and ‘Private Press’ recently and...it’s not either of those.

Read an interview with him recently where he talks about having learned more studio skills recently, and I think there’s sometimes a relationship between “later career enthusiasm for learning technical aspects of craft” and “making duller music”.

Listening to Endtroducing recently I was thinking that part of what I love about the record is the way Shadow acts as a drum/percussion soloist on the MPC. Maybe that had been done before, but it was what made the record feel so fresh to me when I first heard it as a teenager and so different from other sample-based records that were mainly about loops. Also the oddly pleasing dissonances created by the samples brushing against one another, which I wonder if it was partly accidental. Like it's actually a harmonically and melodically interesting album too, and it's not just individual loops by jazz fusion dudes that make it so.

The beat on the Run The Jewels track is horrible, the De La Soul song is way better

I remember the first thing previewed off of Private Press was "Monosylabik" and he was talking about how it's based on a one second thing chopped a thousand different ways and it took months to do... and hearing it and just thinking.. ok good for you...... Thankfully there was plenty more going on with that album.

I loved that song and its expression of craft. That album is as good as Endtroducing to me - while not as "fresh" the songs felt far more polished and established the pinnacle of his sound, which he quickly and forever abandoned afterwards, almost as if to intentionally tell his audience to fuck off.

Only heard the first disc so far - pretty dull and even less original than the last one, which was marginally decent but a shadow *pun intended* of his first two. Ugh. RIP DJ Shadow.

yeah man alive, well put about how the interesting harmonic/melodic roughness

I put on the first 20 mins or so of the instrumental suite this morning and it's sort of a mess. The first track I thought was just bad. Second was sort of interesting but maybe didn't quite hit the mark it was going for. What was maybe either the third or fourth track (I was in the car and didn't notice) sounded like a really shitty jam session involving a real jazz drummer and a complete novice keyboard player (like when the guitar player who doesn't know keys jumps on the keys for fun during a break). I made it as far as Ju-ju-juju-juggernaut and I felt like I didn't get what he was even going for.

Listening to the instrumental side and it sounds like he's fully absorbed the influence of the beat scene (that was originally influenced by him, at least in part) and become a self-sufficient digital producer who doesn't need to sample records when he doesn't want to. Unfortunately it sounds like shitty future bass half the time.

He still has a pretty idiosyncratic approach to rhythm and I like that a lot of it is pretty wonky. But a lot of the sound design just sounds like presets or software demos, but with a weirder approach to rhythm & structure.

Got to the last few tracks and it's amazing how much more 'DJ Shadow' it sounds when he throws a breakbeat in there.

There are a few good songs on side 2 (Wiki, Pusha T, the fake Future Islands track), but it's so all over the place. Maybe it's just supposed to function as a "hey maybe hire DJ Shadow as a producer" resume.

i don't see anyone but the most ardent Shadow stans giving this much play at all

I tried but I won't be going back to this really.

The Outsider killed any interest I had in hearing his new material. Except for 3 Freaks which I think is the weirdest song I've ever heard played on commercial hip hop radio.

The Private Press showed that he had been expanding his listening in contemporary music beyond just backpacker hip hop/trip hop and the sources of those samples. That was an explosive time in music there, a lot of disparate factions mingling styles.

Everyone should be allowed a bad album. But yeah I can't really see listening to this a second time.

he seems genuinely restless and always searching which I think is bound to result in another good album at some point, but yeah on first pass this ain't it

That's optimistic considering what others pointed out that his interests are moving increasingly in the navel gazing technical production aspects.

What I meant by 'disparate styles' on The Private Press was mostly drum & bass and affiliated styles that were booming in the Bay Area around that time. You can hear also the echo of James Lavelle in that polished sheen over some of it, and I'd guess Lavelle was probably a guy vacuuming up influences from up and coming styles.

Still, Psyence Fiction has held up decently, but my favorite Shadow release is In Tune & On Time. The transition from Fixed Income/What Does Your Soul Look Like Pt 2. Great tour too.

the De La joint live on Kimmel with Babu & Melo-D from Beat Junkies, and a horn section:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_I_CDJTyfs

man is gonna get checks from nobody speaks for decades, i swear it’s been used in dozens of ads and trailers

That album is as good as Endtroducing to me

I rank his first two albums roughly equally as well - Entroducing is superior in terms of depth and texture, but Private Press is much catchier and more playful.

This is obviously all my opinion but Endtroducing is one of those classic debuts where it’s obviously the result of years and years of honing a “long”term artistic vision and sorting wheat from chaff (there’s probably an actual term for this sort of thing). It just has a such a deep deep mood and it’s obvious that he went all in and threw down all his favorite magical samples... Private Press to me sounds like it was made by someone else who was really into Endtroducing but also maybe Moby’s Play and other electronica things.. with significantly less love for electric pianos. it’s like the old yarn about a band using up all its good songs on the debut... it’s not even remotely in the same wheelhouse to me, he fell to earth with a thud. endtroducing evokes a lot of heavy Bay Area atmosphere to me.. downtown SF at sunset, foggy mornings at the Ashby BART station flea market... Private Press doesn’t have a feel to me. Just my 8 million cents, sorry to go all turrican

I made similar point re: The Avalanches. Sample-based-collage producers blow their wad on 1st album and struggle thereafter.

imo shadow's real debut was "what does your soul look like"

i like entroducing and brimstead's post a lot tho

Yeah, brimstead otm. I should probably revisit The Private Press tho, I haven't heard it in 18 years.

I made similar point re: The Avalanches. Sample-based-collage producers blow their wad on 1st album and struggle thereafter

they only became sample-based collage producers on that album though, whereas Shadow's 1993-94 stuff is very much in the vein of Endtroducing - and the Avs had the problems of having albums that weren't in the vein of SILY rejected by Pav, and then the two who did the collage stuff becoming unable to work together, possibly related to various health issues of the one who didn't quit, which then further slowed down his process.

Shadow just seems to have wanted to make all his albums have a different sound, and to change his working methods

brimstead makes a very valid point for sample based music. when you think about it, dj shadow was probably destined to fall into that mode. he literally built his early eps and endtroducing on his favorite records. and everyone's list eventually ends, so it only figures that he started to just look for similar records to build similar sounds on with the private press. i still think private press is really good, but ultimately disappointing coming after endtroducing.

Dilla didn't seem to have that problem

Read Nate's new book about sampling and hip hop, which is excellent.

^Didn't know about that book, looks great, thanks!

https://www.upress.umn.edu/book-division/books/bring-that-beat-back/ btw

for those that would prefer The Private Press to be a little more compact :

https://soundcloud.com/strictly/press-cuttings-the-private-press-compacted

(totally forgot i had this until this thread bump)

Dilla didn't seem to have that problem

― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, August 31, 2020 4:43 PM

and superman didn't have any problem flying. bit difficult for the rest of us tho.

i like endtroducing and brimstead's post a lot tho

― the late great, Monday, August 31, 2020 6:03 PM (yesterday)

yep. and yeah, like many others, private press did nothing for me.

He's doing a show at Webster Hall in February. Not expensive if you get tickets at the box office (online fees add 50%). Is he still worth seeing? I love Endtroducing and The Private Press but I noticed on setlist.fm that lately he typically does only one track from each, maybe two.

it feels to me like he did not cross over to zoomers the way similarly lauded 90s albums (my bloody valentine or radiohead's for example) did

I saw him about 10 years ago doing a DJ set with his own (octapad) drumming, it was great tbh.

He was amazing at Portola last year, but who knows how much it's changed given he's dropped a new LP

I've actually never seen him before so maybe I'll go for that reason alone. My only reluctance would be if he's been less-than-good, in which case I would hold out for (hopefully) a better tour.

The new album mostly reminded me of the Stranger Things soundtrack.

There were occasional nice moments on the new album but it was definitely not my thing. I like when an artist follows their muse but he's moved away from anything I found interesting about him in the first place, which like, good for him, do your thing man.

In that sense I feel like his muse has taken him further and further from anything I originally found interesting about him over the years.

Something I think about a fair amount with musicians and artists is that an artist is a kind of character or persona, and that's true musically too. I don't think it should just be "musically whatever I feel like doing, whether or not it has continuity with my prior work." Like that's what side projects/alternate names are for. Or some artists with very long careers have "periods" like Dylan or Bowie. But Shadow's career just feels like it kind of zigs and zags all over the place without clear purpose. Oh well, Endtroducing remains one of my all-time favorite records, and there is at least a compilation's worth of good to great material from the rest.

my buddy is trying to get me to go to that show with him but idk maybe

I feel bad for him though, there's basically no way he could have continued in the same vein. You know what they say, you have your whole life to find samples for your first album, and...

(also sampling laws)

I probably said this upthread but he's clearly made an effort to become a producer using modern tech that doesn't rely on sampling, but there are millions of those and it doesn't show off his most distinctive gifts (his ear and his digging).

RJD2 went the route of learning to play all the instruments and record them to sound like vintage samples...it still doesn't have the magic of his sample work, but it's way better than DJ Shadow's synth-based beats.

I've never seen him, so if it's cheap I guess I'd probably go just to see what it was like, although the new record is pretty weak. Just generic, tired beats.

I don't get sampling laws. Wouldn't rights holders want to price sample usage so that they can make money off them? I know it's complicated for a collage like Endtroducing but you'd think they'd have an incentive to figure out a scheme for assigning percentage of revenue so those works can be made and sold.

I don't think it's very codified, if you're doing it by the book you need to reach out to all the publishers and come to an agreement with each one. At the very least it's a big hassle that might end up with having to lose/replace/redo some samples, and then the artist probably isn't making much money from the record if it's entirely sample-based. But since no one makes money off records anymore, maybe he should just say fuck it and making Endtroducing 2?

The Private Press is still my favorite one btw (and maybe that was his interim solution, mostly sampling records not associated with major labels?).

Some interesting bits here: https://thequietus.com/articles/31624-dj-shadow-private-press-review-anniversary

He'd already set a few rules here: while, working on U.N.K.L.E.'s Psyence Fiction, he had allowed himself the leeway of using musicians to play things when sampling wasn't going to work, for The Private Press he refused to use any musical ingredients that didn't come from previously released records. The hugely influential Brainfreeze mix, made with Cut Chemist in 1999, found the pair only allowing themselves to use 7" 45rpm singles. Its all-45 follow-up, Product Placement, incorporated numerous 7"s released to promote some product or other, and recreated a fans' favourite sequence from Brainfreeze using different versions of the same tracks in a kind of "cover version" of part of the earlier mix.

The delight in accomplishing such absurdly, arbitrarily and unnecessarily difficult tasks was clear: so it was little surprise that there would be challenge he would set for himself here, and that it would be of another order of magnitude altogether. With the notable exception of its introductory cry of "What you gon' do now?", which comes from a 1977 United Artists release by The Whitney Family, on 'Monosyllabik' Shadow forced himself to make an entire track using only sounds he could make out of the first two bars of that privately pressed late-period funk 45. He began by cutting the two bars into 32 pieces, then set about attacking them in the studio, using only outboard gear and analogue equipment - no plug-ins or computers. Microphones were set up to record the sound being played in different ways from different speakers, then fed back through the system and spat out in new shapes, each to be reforged, sifted, rearranged and reconstructed in a process he compared to stop-motion animation.

He's never seemed interested in trying to do an Endtroducing 2. Which is okay because there were a bunch of other producers who tried to do it.

And that's the right attitude I think, it's just too bad he's not left with a fruitful alternative, apparently.

FWIW, re: ticket prices, the Webster Hall show is $35. If you purchase it online (via axs) they add $17 in fees. Webster Hall still runs a box office, but it's only open during evenings when they have a show going on (which thankfully is most evenings in general) - if go there when doors open (typically 6 or 7pm), you can get tickets for upcoming shows without paying those additional fees.

I only started doing this in the past year or two, and the savings really add up. The only indoor venue I've gone to that doesn't do this is City Winery (only members get fees waived). Anyway, the show's four months away, so I doubt it'll sell out imminently.

The delight in accomplishing such absurdly, arbitrarily and unnecessarily difficult tasks

I feel like this is a good description of the energy that comes through in his best material.

The Private Press still has it. I like that record overall, I should probably revisit. A few of the tracks are up there with Endtroducing material for me, but it starts to feel sort of scattered in the second half of the album, like an awkward back and forth between slow moody beats and fast, frenetic beats, at least that's my memory of it.

The More You Know is also a bit of a "return to form" if not on the same level. I should probably revisit that one too.

there are some sample heavy albums I look at as “endtroducing-adjacent” but with different vibes

since i left you = endtroducing on ecstasy
ptaki przelot = endtroducing in 80s poland

I consider Since I Left You my "Endtroducing 2".

Also DJ Frane's records help scratch that itch too.

Wish someone would drop an all sample based album that's blatantly illegal to show how beautiful the artform can be without legal limitations and just release it to the public domain as an act of protest or something

Oh nice timing there brimstead

Maybe I need to give Since I Left You another spin - the few times I heard it I thought it sounded a little too perfect. I don't know the other one.

Com Truise sometimes scratches an Endtroducing sort of itch even though it's synthy and not samply.

Four Tet 'Rounds' is definitely Endtroducing-adjacent/entirely samples.

I wonder what the post-Ableton warping Endtroducing is. Or maybe we only got mashups/edits/Girl Talk once sampling became easy and user-friendly. Thinking through all the L.A. beat scene stuff there were definitely samples, but it leaned much harder on original production.

Maybe I need to give Since I Left You another spin - the few times I heard it I thought it sounded a little too perfect. I don't know the other one.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, November 10, 2023 12:22 PM

thought it was just me all these years! listening again for the first time since it was new and i still get absolutely nothing out of this music.

anyway yeah, endtroducing was lightning in a bottle and our friend mr davis just happened to be the one to catch it.

DJ Frane's Journey to the Planet of Birds is a legit masterpiece imho. Vibes more with Private Press era DJ Shadow. But I love all of Frane's albums. They're made with a lot of love and cannabis

did dj shadow sample anything from herbie mann’s stone flute? some serious gothtempo vibes there