Search And Destroy: Belle And Sebastian

1. Sleep the Clock Around 2. String Bean Jean 3. Put the Book Back on the Shelf 4. Expectations 5. Slow Graffiti

worst record, Fold Your Arms...(duh), worst track, 'Before the Sun' by a long margin (why God, why?!)

century of elvis & we rule the school still retain a semblance of the waifish charm that made them appear fleetingly special all those years ago. had they split up after if you're feeling sinister things might have been different.

B & S register at about the same level as Korn on my Loath-o-meter.

DESTROY: 'Beyond The Sunrise', 'The Chalet Lines', 'Chickfactor', 'Legal Man', 'The Gate', 'Dirty Dream Number Two' (sorry, sounds like trying-to-hard pastiche to me), and, probably, 'Family Tree' even though I have a soft spot for its sheer idiocy.

Dr C's comments leave me in the dark, as do most slag-offs of the band. Sexless? What does this mean? Whatever. I presume you can have sex and still be sexless then. Apologetic? Is this intrinsically bad? And anyway, thinking about it Stuart Murdoch is probably one of the most bloody-minded figures in music today.

Maybe you just can't stand his mimsy voice. Which is fair enough.

DESTROY: The ones about how independent and cool it is to be B & S or a member thereof. "Seymour Stein", "Chickfactor", "Family Tree" etc. etc. "Beyond The Sunrise" is a natural D-Side but as Hazlewood knockoffs go it's not an awful one.

Destroy: "Legal Man" is too easy an answer, as is "Nice Day for A Sulk" and, I guess, there's no really objectionable music to be had, just forgettable music, which is okay by me.

damnation: "Family Tree", "Seymour Stein", "Chickfactor", "Legal Man", "Nice Day For A Sulk", "Beyond The Sunrise".

agreed 100% with Nick on which are the worthwhile tracks from the last album.

DESTROY: everything that's come afterward. the inner circles of hell belong to those who own anything by looper.

The songwriting and lyrics make it hard to believe this was a debut record. My favorite songs are "i could be dreaming" and "electronic renaissance". yes, they are.

destroy: the movie clippings on the soundtrack album they did and 'a century of elvis'

belle and sebastian are easily one of my favorite groups ever... their first two albums in particular always get a lot of play time...

great live show, also... although the atmosphere was strangely affected as i saw them on 9/11/2001...

But I do take some strange pleasure in "Legal Man" and I like "La Pastie de la Bourgeoisie"

?!? At least you didn't say it was "Jonathan David," but still...

i thought it was a great show but it took me a while to remember that... a couple months actually.

And I'm ready to say that recent B & S (Dear Catastrophe Waitress and the Books and Cuckoo EPs) are the best things they've done yet.

B&S are damned by the (not 100% inaccurate) received opinion that all their fans are cardigan/hairslide/pop-socks/tortoise-shell specs/etc - it seems the band quietly allowed this perception to flourish, since they realised pretty early on that becoming the figureheads of a subculture - however derided that subculture may be by "mainstream" society - can only be good for sales and reach.

But the band themselves? They may *look* twee in a Bunty 70s teen fashion kinda way, but they seldom *sound* twee. As stated above, they're way more Northern Soul than Sarah.

This might actually be the problem.

Hmmm, I guess I just outed myself . . . I hope we can still be friends, Ned. : )

DESTROY: all their boring slow songs, "Lord Anthony", "Asleep on a Sunbeam", "Lazy Line Painter Jane", "You Made Me Forget My Dreams", every single one of their album titles but especially Fold Your Hands Child, You Walk Like a Peasant

In short, I would love to hear some of their songs tackled by voices that don't inspire playground-bully fantasies.

And now, of course, an obligatory dig at the fans: people who like B&S strike me as a more self-conscious subset of people who like RENT.

i gotta say they were never the same after isobel left. (this may just be a coincidence)

I don't get all this anti-twee stuff. If I think about it, I think that the twee connection is something I like about B&S, on the whole.

But these things are contingent, and personal.

Am I alone in thinking that Dear Catastrophe Waitress just towers over every other album they've yet made?

(xpost)

hahaha! this is my default shower song!

also I'd like to defend Fox In The Snow and Lord Anthony.

There isn't really a bad song on IYFS. Well, maybe The Boy Done Wrong Again, but it's not a BAD song.

Destroy: Everything else, the smug fuckwits.

xpost to myself.

the original question is a chilling one, brrr.

Seriously, what else is there?

It rather reminds me of all the black-clad, multiply-pierced clove-smokers who'll swear on a stack of Bauhaus records that they're not g*ths. Denial's not just a river in Egypt, it would seem.

Search 'The State That I Am In'
Destroy 'Beyond The Sunrise'.

But also destroy 'Storytelling' while you're there.

Listening again to DEAR CATASTROPHE WAITRESS - some of it is probably the kind of thing that's improved by a decent hi-fi (which I now have), seems to have more point this way. But 'Asleep On A Sunbeam', my goodness, that is BAD and lame by any lights.

DCW IIRC is OK but has two songs that suck beyond belief - namely the title-track and "If You Find Yourself Caught In Love"

"Seeing Other People" is a fkn brilliant song, on the other hand.

I like 'Caught In Love', and don't find anything wrong with the title track

We disagree. Hurrah!

No bad tracks on DCW. Oh, apart from "Lord Anthony" of course.

I liked that one!

I quite like it too. This LP seems oddly divisive.

Actually I don't of course like the religious hectoring of 'caught in love', but I do still like the wilfully-naive (?) verse about foreign wars.

I also think the *arrangement* of 'Lord Anthony' is pretty marvellous.

Having just heard the end of the LP I am struck by sense of B&S as *performers*. On stage: they went from shambolic-could-hardly-play band (so I'm told) to astonishingly competent instrument-swappers. But also on record: they seem more and more to have become imitators (easy to say that), a band *performing* making music somehow, trying out guises and succeeding, putting on a show. The impression is very different from the early work (though maybe lots of that - 'You're Just A Baby', 'Electronic Renaissance' - was actually genre-essaying 'performance' too?), as most know. It's impressive, and can be enjoyable, but still an odd pop experience. But some of the oddity does testify to their abilities and ambition, not just to decline.

Then again, look at the time: 5 years already since DCW; DCW was only, what, 7 years after Sinister. Time always speeds up, or slows down, that way.

http://a615.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/48/l_886be3a1938bb32a3508ffc2ca534246.jpg

Disc 1 – Radio Sessions: The State I Am In, Like Dylan In The Movies, Judy and the Dream of Horses, The Stars of Track and Field, I Could Be Dreaming, Seymour Stein, Lazy Jane, Sleep The Clock Around, Slow Graffiti, Wrong Love, Shoot The Sexual Athlete, The Magic of a Kind Word, (My Girls Got) Miraculous Technique

Disc 2 – Live in Belfast: Here Comes The Sun, Theres Too Much Love, The Magic of a Kind Word, Me and the Major, Wandering Alone, The Model, Im Waiting For The Man, The Boy With the Arab Strap, The Wrong Girl, Dirty Dream 2, Boys Are Back in Town, Legal Man

INTERESTING though wait a miute not all the Peel session tracks are on here - even I can tell that.

minute

Trying to make a mix for a male friend who I think needs some B&S in my life. Anything missing?

My Wandering Days are Over
Expectations
She’s Losing It
Lazy Line Painter Jane
Dog on Wheels
Seeing Other People
Me & the Major
Get Me Away from Here, I’m Dying
If You’re Feeling Sinister
Le Pastie de la Bourgeoisie
Mayfly
Is It Wicked Not To Care?
Dirty Dream Number Two
The Boy With the Arab Strap
Legal Man
Family Tree
Step into My Office, Baby
If She Wants Me
Piazza, New York Catcher
White Collar Boy
The Blues are Still Blue
Take Your Carriage Clock and Shove It

NB I didn't put things like The Boy Done Wrong Again because he's got this idea that they are a sappy folk band, I'm trying to show him they know how to have fun.

well my favorites include:

The State That I Am In, Electronic Renaissance, String Bean Jean, A Summer Wasting, Ease Your Feet In The Sea, Beautiful, Simple Things, Sleep The Clock Around, I'm a Cuckoo, Big John Shaft, Jonathan David, Storytelling, Photo Jenny, This Is Just a Modern Rock Song, Slow Graffiti, Pocketbook Angel

I don't like these ones as much: Dog on Wheels, Mayfly, Legal Man (I know it's harder rock), White Collar Boy (I know it's harder rock), Family Tree, The Blues are Still Blue, Take Your Carriage Clock and Shove It

But Finefinemusic, their lyrics are mostly sappy. If I cared at all about the lyrics being sappy though I wouldn't be listening to Belle and Sebastian in the first place. I don't care. The only time the lyrics bother me is when something awkwardly stand out like in The Model when he sings "it was the best sex she ever had". If it wasn't for that line it would be a great song.

btw, 'God Help The Girl' soundtrack by Stuart has leaked

If you're trying to prove that they're not a sappy folk band, "Stay Loose" or "Your Cover's Blown" would be ideal, I think.

God Help The Girl

After the success of the most recent Belle And Sebastian album, "The Life Pursuit", band leader/singer/songwriter Stuart Murdoch decided to pursue his dream of writing a rock musical scored for female singers. After auditioning vocalists via Internet contests, he made his choices and, with all members of Belle And Sebastian backing him up, recorded this breathtaking record. It combines the strengths and feel of early Belle And Sebastian records in a broader musical palette, which draws equally on musicals, 60s girl groups, 80s indie, and most of all, classic pop.

of the ones I mentioned the least folky are: Simple Things, Sleep The Clock Around, Electronic Renaissance, Slow Graffiti

xxxp I respectively disagree, I think they tread a nice line of sinful and repentant.. "A sharp suit and a clip-on tie, a big arrow pointing to my fly," "She said you ain't ugly, you can kiss me if you like.." "Saint Theresa's calling her, the church up on the hill is looking lovely," etc. I like their sappy stuff but I don't think it's nearly as infectious and easy to approach as the poppier stuff... I've never really given Storytelling a listen and I see you've mentioned a few songs from there, will check them out -t hanks!

jaymc I forgot about YCB, that's a great one but maybe too disco-y for this dude (likes include: Public Enemy, Propoghandi, Gwar) - might stick it in anyway. Never heard Stay Loose! Now I am intrigued.. as well as this God Help the Girl compilation I never heard of, wow!

I feel that you aren't going to impress him by playing the hardest or most electronic Belle and Sebastian songs. I would stick with the best ones that aren't annoying or boring (Legal Man is annoying. And this guy probably won't like Belle and Sebastian anyways.. so it really doesn't matter.

We were cottaging this weekend and he was into The Blues are Still Blue, which is one you don't seem to like. Legal Man annoying? Or fantastic? I seem to love the stuff that you don't.. but I wouldn't consider any of it hard rock! :)

I'd limit the length of the mix to about 30 or 40 minutes. 74 minutes of B&S is just too much.

Do you love the ones on the list I made? (maybe you can download them and play em all back to back) Btw, all the songs that I didn't mention on your mix are really good.

what would you trim? I can't bear to edit it down.. this is just going to be a .zip file that I email to him, I am too lazy to make him a mix CD, my computer sucks balls.

I can cut Piazza since that's on the Juno sdtrk and his fiancee plays that frequently. Just wanted to give him a good retrospective than taking my chances and saying "just go get If You're Feeling Sinister"

oh yeah, for sure I love those songs! I am pretty much in love with B&S' entire 1990s output, gave up around Fold Your Hands and have been recently convinced to listen to their newer stuff, hence not knowing any of Storytelling.. never heard Pocketbook Angel, though, is that on ST?

Pocketbook Angel is a rare demo track. Storytelling isn't so good but the title track and Big John Shaft are pretty excellent (and a couple other songs are pretty good).

I already told you what I would trim though

Pocketbook Angel was a pre-Tigermilk one that turns up on various sharing sites and that, I don't think it's ever been released. From that era, I like Hurley's Having Dreams, but it wouldn't win you any "they're not twee" arguments.

xpost

I would add Dress Up In You, just because it's lovely. And lose Family Tree, it's awful. It's the one everyone I knew used to use as the excuse to go to the bar during gigs.

LOL fair enough ailsa, I stuck it in as an afterthought because I keep getting that "My family tree goes back to the romans" line stuck in my head lately and I think it's kind of cute. I'm much more Stuart than Isobel any day of the week though. I wish B&S were touring so I could just take him to a concert with me, he's a great dancer and I know it'd win anyone over. SO GOOD live.

Sorry Mulvaney the trim q was an xp to f hazel!

Wandering Alone and Storytelling are the hits from that album. Cover (version) is one of my personal faves that isn't sappy. God Help The Girl is a real winner I think. There's an ILM thread on it already.

Cover (version)?

nevermind, it's a song off of Books that I don't remember

It's a filthy, funky, almost instrumental version of Your Cover's Blown.

Lazy Line Painter Jane: indie rock's "Don't Stop Believing"?

Could you elaborate? I'm not sure what you mean.

Another song about a small town girl living in a lonely world, taking the mid-night trainbus going anyywwhere, but for the scarves and majored-in-English set. The genre's own fists in the air, stadium anthem.

monica queen needs to release something new already. one day the world will discover how amazing her last record was.

i was unaware she'd done anything other than 77x

i finally got all my B&S things on the computer and was actually shocked as to how much some of the early tracks make me cringe

LLPJ still sounds good tho

To finish our yearlong celebrations of 10 Years of ATP, we are thrilled to bring back the event that started it all. In 1999 Belle & Sebastian curated The Bowlie Weekender, the event that became All Tomorrow's Parties, and this December they will return to headline and curate Bowlie 2.

The festival weekend will run from the 10th - 12th December at Butlins Holiday Centre, Minehead featuring around 40 bands picked by Belle & Sebastian. The first exciting set of line-up additions will be confirmed on Monday at the general on-sale.

info here: http://www.atpfestival.com/events/bowlie2.php

Cécile Aubry, author of the television show 'Belle et Sébastien', has died

What Stuart Murdoch was trying to do with God Help The Girl, Nick Krygovch has done better with his GIGI project. That is all.

http://forum.bcdb.com/forum/Belle_and_Sebastian_author_Cecile_Aubry_dies_at_81_P109189/

(Not that I am sure what they were respectively trying to do, but I agree that GIGI is somehow spectacularly successful, and more so to me than GHTG.)

saw their north american tour opener tonight and it was so <3

http://athousandflowers.net/2015/03/30/weekly-wanker-049-stuart-murdoch/

Article itself is kind of weirdly intent on proving a single point, but I never thought I'd read about rape and death threats from B&S fans.

I decree these albums my favorites!

definitely understand the argument for Dear Catastrophe Waitress at #1, it's the best arranged and best produced at the very least

i agree on the top 5 but for me it goes Tigermilk (classsikkk), Barman (has Lazy Line Painter Jane so), DCW (good), Sinister (big statement, slight songs), Strap (an album by a band).

The Books EP has a special place in my heart and would crack my top 5 releases

What Stuart Murdoch was trying to do with God Help The Girl, Nick Krygovch has done better with his GIGI project. That is all.

Won't comment on what Murdoch was trying to do with God Help the Girl because potential libel suits

far be it from me to assume that the libel you had in mind would extend both to ghtg the musical project and ghtg the movie

Didn't even realise there was a musical project but let's assume yeah

that Gigi album does indeed rule, I still listen to it a lot. I do like the string arrangement on the title track of GHtG a lot, though.

was unaware of this movie, looks like torture

i've had that queued up to watch for two years

i think Fold Your Hands Child is pretty fantastic if you cut out most of the songs that Stuart doesn't sing lead

I Fought in a War
The Model
Don't Leave the Light on Baby (one of their best songs)
Nice Day for a Sulk
Women's Realm
There's Too Much Love

(i actually quite like some of the others as well. 'beyond the sunrise' is a good song but it sounds like it's from a different album/band altogether. but overall they're not quite the same caliber as the Stuart songs)

our rankings are exactly the same alfred! though i think v highly of girls in peacetime and would prob put it at no. 5

The Life Pursuit is also worth a mention. Would probably drop Arab Strap for that or Girls in Peacetime. Sinister is still my favorite.

karl malone otm

i listen to fold your hands, child all the time

Do they have a better song that is slower than “don’t leave the light on baby”? It’s their best ballad imo

it's a great song, and the album cover great, and the title is great, and imo "there's too much love" is their best song

“women’s realm” >>>>>>>>

I got off the wagon, sort of, at Fold Your Hands, but it's hard to remember why when actually listening to it. "The Chalet Lines" and "The Wrong Girl" are also quite respectable.

Letting the other members do songs diluted the power of their albums, but there were still plenty of tunes.

recently put some B&S songs on and they're a much, much better band than they were when I was 14, and I liked them when I was 14

Nobody’s Empire is incredible; possibly their best song IMO. The fact that it’s autobiographical helps I suppose.

"This Is Just A Modern Rock Song" forever

it's seeing other people and i don't love anyone obv

They're a great band, but at a certain point I just couldn't be bothered. Probably more me than them, or likely so. I'm sure having taken so much time away from them will make me appreciate them more. I think "The Life Pursuit" was the last one I heard, and looking at the track listing I liked it. Last two ... definitely haven't heard them.

I'll say this much about them. They might have been the last band, or at least one of the last, whose albums of the nascent internet era were passed around like samizdat. Tigermilk's reputation loomed as large as its elusiveness, and I remember getting an advance of Sinister that made me the envy of many. Or at least, you know, a few.

It's Electronic Renaissance you cretins

ease yr feet tho

step into my office, tho

this band has the most best songs

i want to make it clear that i don't think don't leave the light on baby is their best song, only their best slow song. and that i threw down the challenge of someone naming a better slower song than that by them, which went completely unanswered. as i understand it, this makes it the consensus ballad champion.

you're just a baby, tho

if i make a compilation of songs that end with the word "baby", those two have to be on it

prob not a popular favorite but i think my fav slow belle and sebastian song is “dress up in you”

I fondly remember certain slow songs from the early EPs. "Slow Graffiti" and "You Made Me Forget My Dreams", etc. (Though nowadays I probably pluck Push Barman... off the shelf most often, just generally, for all categories of B&S songs, so...)

Won't comment on what Murdoch was trying to do with God Help the Girl because potential libel suits

For the first time ever I'm interested in Belle & Sebastian.

BradNelson - Dress Up In You is one of my faves of the Life Pursuit

I'm guessing Stuart was trying to combine the "whiter than translucent" extreme indie-twee aesthetic with some Riefenstahl influences, and maybe try and creep on some young actor?

Certainly he latter I'm assuming, dish the dirt someone.

I looked at a trailer and it appears to be the worst film in the history of cinema. Also Glasgow appears to have no Scottish people (a bit like Edinburgh) and no ugly or old people (whither Belle & Sebastian?)

I wasn't joking about the Riefenstahl influences!

“We Rule the School” is the best slow song. It’s their mission statement!

lol that movie also has Radcliffe + Maconie acting in it, proof that some of these ten-a-penny euro movie festivals will put their garlands on any old shit!

There’s a little bit of a creeper vibe to me when an artist over the age of (say) 30 is super into romanticizing/identifying with misfit teens.

Alfred’s album rankings are mine exactly.

prob not a popular favorite but i think my fav slow belle and sebastian song is “dress up in you”

One of his best songs. Life Pursuit is top 3 for sure.

i think the life pursuit is kinda exhausting as an album but on an individual song basis it’s still p great. only b&s album i’ve never really warmed to is write about love, which has some jams anyway

dress up in you is incredible. i agree with brad about the life pursuit--it's a harder album to "settle into" than the others

Is there a best-of album? They could have a doozy. I’d be happy to assemble one for them.

Alfred’s album rankings are mine exactly.

― Mr. Snrub

thanks!

i agree on the top 5 but for me it goes Tigermilk (classsikkk), Barman (has Lazy Line Painter Jane so), DCW (good), Sinister (big statement, slight songs), Strap (an album by a band).

― rip van wanko, Friday, November 23, 2018 6:44 AM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This, but FYHCYWLAP before or after Sinister

strap is the best

dirty dream no. 2 is one of my top 5 songs by them

i somehow agree with everything people are saying in this thread. where's turrican?

I've probably told this story before, but the first time they ever played Chicago they sold-out a moderately sized club. When my friend who worked there showed up to say hi, he thought the show had been canceled because it was dead quiet, the audience was so enraptured. This was right when Arab Strap came out. The same friend gave me a copy of that night's concert poster signed by everybody in the band, which I have hanging up in the basement. Somewhere around that time we ended up with a girly Belle and Sebastian shirt so tiny no adult human could possibly fit it. Both my kids took turns wearing it as they got bigger, though I don't think either knows who the band is or what they sound like.

i love the stories about how much mystique there was around them in the early days. i wonder if it's possible for something like that to happen again. i imagine not, as a lot of it was driven by scarcity.

this was my favorite shirt in high school, and then someone STOLE it!

https://i.imgur.com/g1jH79k.jpg

either that or i barfed in someone's front lawn and they took it from me as payment, who knows

I wish I could love B&S like I used to. Absolute my favourite band from 96 onwards, but moved to Glasgow etc.

I got off the wagon at Life Pursuit which I still don't like very much and it seemed such a let down and I still don't care for it for whatever reason. I've liked the subsequent post-reunion (kind of) albums to varying degrees; certainly more than LIfe Pursuit but TBH nothing after CAtastrophe Waitress ever seemed very memorable to me. They were incredible life this year though, it'd been some years since I'd seen them and I'd forgotten how good they can be.

They good.

I saw the film, its OK. I liked it a lot but its certainly not for everyone.

always thought Ever Had A Little Faith off the 2015 album really stood out among the recent albums—wistful, small, well crafted, with that classic strumming guitar touch that they mostly abandoned after Life Pursuit. Ghost Of Rockschool also comes to mind for the same reasons.

This is Just A Modern Rock Song all the way. Women's Realm is up there, Too Much Love, Sinister, Stars of Track and Field, The Model, Fox in the Snow.

I could go on and on, which has surprised me as I've not really listened to them in two years.

i really love the "push barman to open old wounds" collection. marx & engels, a century of fakers, the state i am in, so many great songs.

yeah, that's a great set of songs. similar to the stereolab ep collection, Oscillons from the Anti-Sun, in the pleasing way it offers well-known songs alongside relative obscurities, and yet it all flows well

barman was the first b&s record i bought, in high school, mainly off the enthusiastic pfork review. probably the best introduction to them i could've gotten, disc 1 has all the mystery and sweetness of the early records and disc 2 has many of the best examples of their playfully-arranged full-of-personality later sound

they're almost my vote for best band to listen to when you're sick

they're also*

My only gripe with Push Barman is the inferior version of The State I Am In

oh lord that's a great call xp

i actually think barman has the superior "state i am in," but it's the first one i heard

this is my fear, that people will hear that version and get used to it, for some reason this seems terribly wrong

arab strap was the first one i heard and all i've needed despite attempts to connect w/ the others, even if some of them are p good

xp at the time that's how most people would've heard it (as I did) because Dog On Wheels came out before Tigermilk was reissued. tbh I can't remember what the difference is

I didn't much like The Boy With The Arab Strap when it came out and I never listened to anything they did after that, did I miss anything? Oh, actually I did buy the Legal Man single. But that's it.

i think the life pursuit is kinda exhausting as an album but on an individual song basis it’s still p great

this is very otm, and i love that album

this was my favorite shirt in high school, and then someone STOLE it!

I still have that one! Didn't even make my top 3 B&S shirts tho, which is probably why it has remained in remarkably good nick.

1. Study At Stow with Belle & Sebastian (still got, faded)
2. BELLE & SEBASTIAN SUPPORT THE WORK OF THE CLYDESIDE HUNT SABOTEURS (still got, faded)
3. A Legal Man era skinnyfit ringer (STOLEN! by someone who was prolly only in it for the shirt, but I'd be too old and fat for that now anyway).

Whilst looking for those just now I also found the Bowlie Weekender one with Julie Driscoll, and "Rod And Emu: Welcome To Cambersands", presumably acquired at the same festival which, whilst maybe peripheral at best, still take me down memory lane to when this band was MY LIFE...

Going to rep for the Richard X remix of ‘I didn’t see it coming’, which turns something charming and messy into a neon lit eurodisco stomper.

Favorite band ever. I stayed with the all the way through Girls in Peacetime, but I've got a special place in my heart for all the stuff they released while they were still mysterious and wouldn't do photo shoots or interviews.
Sinister > Arab Strap > All the early EP's > Tigermilk > The Life Pursuit > Storytelling > Dear Catastrophe Waitress > Girls in Peacetime > Fold Your Hands > Write About Love

In Pitchfork doc on If You're Feeling Sinister, Stuart says that he knew, at the time he was writing them, that this was going to be his best batch of songs ever.

Storytelling is a great listen! And Arab Strap is underrated imo

I didn't realize anybody listened to the Gigi record, that's nice!

I forgot they did that Storytelling stuff. Fuck that director, I don't know who I like less, him or Neil LaBute.

I have not and will never get the love for Sinister, a weaker album than both Tigermilk and the first three EPs IMO.

it's because of all the incredible songs

Seeing Other People is good, Me & The Major too, the end of Like Dylan and the end of a few others too, actually the instrumentals at the end of the tracks are usually the best bits, but the songs themselves, I do not find to be incredible, sorry.

i prefer tigermilk slightly but it and sinister are about even imo. i didn’t get sinister for a very long time though, the songs took a while for some reason

the title track of sinister is maybe the best b&s song

B&S was the first band I learned about on the internet <3

Does not get better than the first side of Tigermilk for me, second side is good too except I don't care for the last two tracks.

To answer something from way upthread, The State I Am In was played almost every night by Mark & Lard on Radio 1 in 1995, between that and Sinister it was the only song of theirs I knew.

second side is good too except I don't care for the last two tracks.

*quietly moves “i don’t love anyone” to first place on tentative ballot*

it's great that so many people love them but nobody can agree on which tracks

We can probably agree that they are one of the few bands, like Led Zeppelin, who wrote a bunch of good songs but could still probably be well captured or defined by the first song on their first album.

*quietly moves “i don’t love anyone” to first place on tentative ballot*

― princess of hell (BradNelson), Monday, 26 November 2018 23:25 (twenty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otm

Tigermilk = an album culled from the first few EPs > Sinister >>> Arab Strap = Dear Catastrophe Waitress >>>>>>>

poll: which is better right now, this thread or POLLercoaster Ride - ILM Artist Poll #94 - Belle and Sebastian - Discussion/Campaigning Thread

Kind of insane how many ILXors love this band - are they the ultimate ILX band?

(They're a mystery to me, tbh)

i actually think barman has the superior "state i am in," but it's the first one i heard

same

xxp Are you, or have you ever been, a member of sinister?

I have not and will never get the love for Sinister, a weaker album than both Tigermilk and the first three EPs IMO.

I personally (PERSONALLY) think “Sinister” is an awful album, just the pits, and embodies some of the worst aspects of this band, as well as “twee-ness”/deliberate amateurism in general — just as surely as “Tigermilk” displays this band at its best, and embodies “twee-ness” / amateurism at its most charming and effective.

The naive drum crescendos and ducking French Horn solo on the opening track alone make me wish I could lash the album to a Wes Anderson Criterion Collection box set and launch the whole stinking package into the gnarliest tar pit on earth.

i bought Sinister on day of release due to hype having never heard a note the band ever recorded. It's one of the last things I remember buying that way (the other being the first Strokes album). can't imagine anyone thinking it's awful.

Kind of insane how many ILXors love this band - are they the ultimate ILX band?

― Monica Kindle (Tom D.), Tuesday, November 27, 2018 1:23 AM (six hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

When ILX first started, a lot of the first 'members' came from a B&S fan board which closed down.

(That right? A simplified version of what happened?)

the few bands, like Led Zeppelin, who wrote a bunch of good songs but could still probably be well captured or defined by the first song on their first album.
I feel a thread comin' on...

When ILX first started, a lot of the first 'members' came from a B&S fan board which closed down.

My memory of it is that someone on the Sinister mailing list referenced a (typically fine) bit of pop writing by T0m 3w1ng, and a few of us sought out his website, got in touch and started contributing to articles and discussions (and hanging out socially) and out of that came ILM. ILM probably would've happened without the Sinister contingent but they were in at the birth.

So, yeah, I'm not here without B&S. I met my future partner at a B&S gig in '97 and most of my social circle was drawn from the Sinister list when I moved to London in spring '98. It's quite hard to separate anything that's happened in my life in the last two decades from the moment I heard the Radcliffe session in '96. It set the ball rolling.

One day I might try and listen to those early records again (I've not heard anything since Pursuit) and see if I can get anything out of them. It's been a long time.

I think it was me who referenced Tom's essay but maybe I'm building up my own part.

Yes! I think it was you.

Wow that's awesome! Interesting to hear how it all began. Is Tom's essay available online anywhere?

Don't worry in 10 years time someone will make a documentary on ILX and all will be revealed.

Was it maybe this?
http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2000/07/belleseb/

(TBH, I don't know even recall whether Tom was writing about B&S in the article Alba linked).

I think it was a best of the 90s thing

Ah, ok.

Still, the above article does have this priceless line:
"Stuart Murdoch, in fact, knows the insides of a track better than anyone this side of Pan Sonic, and is house music’s greatest loss in our generation."

It was Stevie T -- he, characteristically, knew about Ewing's writing before anyone else, and he took me to meet Ewing in Notting Hill in, I think, May 2000. The Sinister / FT crossover started there.

In fact even before that, Stevie had written in praise of Ewing's writing in PAPERCUTS.

Now that does make it feel a long time ago.

I happened to be looking at ILX and on seeing that one of the Newest Answers was Michael Jones on a Belle & Sebastian thread, thought I might have fallen back in time by about 17 years.

Which would have been good.

Come on, Tim Roger!

I have a cold

I'm curious. B&S were the instigators (in my musical landscape, at any rate) of so many songwriting/production tropes that have just become lexiconical in the intervening 20 years-- most notably, the "Neu! beats played with brushes" thing, I guess. What inspired them? People said (on the other thread) "they sounded like Love" but there's more to it than that. I can't really think of what would be the conversation that would arrive at creating this music except "The Velvet Underground s/t, but fun"

Or maybe "Tindersticks, but cute"

Nick Drake, but useless

imagine how terrible ilx wd be if a nick drake message board had helped set it up

Indiepop, + other things to make it more diverse and surprising.

Murdoch seemed to mention Felt an awful lot for a while there.

Nick Drake, but useless

Ha, this is funny. Where did I just see/read either an interview or hypothesis that one thing driving Drake's depression was that he was writing songs too difficult or complicated to play live?

Anyway, obviously B&S's wimpyness has always been part of its appeal, and what distinguishes it from other sad sacks like Drake but also, sure, Tindersticks or Elliott Smith or whomever. That's where the Smiths come on. B&S never really sounded like the Smiths, not at all - for one, the Smiths were a muscular rock band - but the Smiths were often funny about its innate woe-is-meisms, and B&S glommed on to that sort of irony. Even early on Murdoch et al. were pretty goofy, esp. live, taking the piss out of themselves, which countered the sort of pretensions that many ascribed, imo.

FWIW, American Analog Set aced the Neu!-with-brushes trope.

quick mix for anyone who's only familiar with the early stuff to help get caught up with some obvious highlights:

Stay Loose
If She Wants Me
I'm a Cuckoo
Wrapped Up In Books
Your Cover's Blown
Another Sunny Day
White Collar Boy
Dress Up In You
Mornington Crescent
I Want the World to Stop
Sunday's Pretty Icons
I Didn't See It Coming
The Cat With the Cream
Nobody's Empire
Play for Today
The Same Star

https://open.spotify.com/user/suckerblues/playlist/22MZ6qdAASHRVZq4R90mwr?si=lHBGxTBtRwa_9yyagD3jgw

I just realized I posted thi to the wrong B$S thread. oh well

So many cameos in this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvqhSMAlkhQ

I guess it was made by Lance Bangs in Athens, which explains the presence of so many E6 folks but also Corin Tucker.

As Hoffman board has Beatles, so ILX has B&S

Xps Have followed, thanks,

The other parts of the puzzle for me - Smiths, VU, Motown, Love, S&G accepted - are the Left Banke, the Zombies and Colin Blunstone.

And I wonder about that 'crutches' lyric. It might just be an unintentional echo but it's always made me think of Kentucky Ave.

We can probably agree that they are one of the few bands, like Led Zeppelin, who wrote a bunch of good songs but could still probably be well captured or defined by the first song on their first album.

― Josh in Chicago, Monday, November 26, 2018 3:33 PM (yesterday)

This feels like a criticism to me and I'm not sure what that criticism is. Is it that they don't quite have, say, the normal stylistic range that a comparable, well-loved group with a similar size discography would have?

Yes Zombies of course I should've thought that

Go-Betweens?

Yes Zombies of course I should've thought that

― fgti is for (flamboyant goon tie included), Tuesday, November 27, 2018 10:32 AM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

listening to boy with the arab strap right now, and the intro to "simple things" is "she's not there"

I think that criticism is true of the first few albums, but there's a lot more sonic diversity and disparate genre exercises on the last few records (for good and ill). It's all filtered through their fey lens, sure, but it's a more diverse set of influences and sonics nonetheless.

xpost Hmm, I don't think it's a criticism. Or didn't mean it as such. Just that the band had almost miraculously figured what it did best pretty early on and how to do it. Very much like, say, the Cars. Or even the Smiths, I suppose; "This Charming Man" is about as good as it gets, but it doesn't mean the band doesn't get that good again. Same with LZ. Imo. Like, LZ and Smiths can be captured pretty well by those introductory early tracks, This Charming Man and Good Times, Bad Times, but the band remained good for its duration. The Cars ... less so. There was clearly a case of diminishing returns. But back to B&S, I'd argue that the bulk of the things the band has been criticized for over the years has been deviation from that initial template. Letting others sing and write, stylistic detours, etc, which even this far down the line feels kind of precarious or tentative or ad hoc, despite a long-stable line-up. Since those first couple of records it's seemingly been a constant case of "now this is the band I fell in love with!" or "finally B&S is back on track!" and stuff like that. In fact, I'd argue the band has been eliciting those reactions for longer than it hasn't.

Dunno, just thinking out loud here. It's admittedly my personal bias that for all the high points not a single album after the first couple has felt essential to me.

I watched the ...Sinister P4K documentary today and it really brought home how good Murdoch is at creating simple images of travel (he's only lucid when he's riding buses); how so many of his lyrical images are seen through windows or are of people going from here to there. It's the poetry of exile and it's got some of that pressed up against the window quality of Larkin, albeit Murdoch arguably found a way in where Larkin never did (at least not in his poetry).

Poetry of exile is a nice way to put it. It's hard to know how much weight to give his origin story, but stuck in bed with chronic fatigue seems as good a source of inspiration as any.

This thread made me go and reread the A.V. Club Random Rules piece with Fran Healy where he talks about seeing B&S' first show. Long post, but well worth checking out.

https://music.avclub.com/random-rules-fran-healy-of-travis-1798215586

Belle And Sebastian, "We Rule The School"

FH: This is turning out good. Stuart (Murdoch) is an old friend of mine from Glasgow. He and I were best friends with two sisters. His friend was called Kiera, and my friend was called Jude. His dad was a really famous Irish writer; it was a big eye-opening moment in my life to get to hang out at their place, because they were so cultured. His dad would listen to classical music in his front room and stand and conduct it. He would have loads of really cool arty-fartsy people over at the house. I was just a kid, like 16 or 17. Stuart was a really nice guy, but slightly annoying. He always pulled his cardigan cuffs over his hands and twiddled with the wool at the corner. He always looked down at his feet, and I was like, "For fuck's sake!"

I remember I was just starting out in a band, and he wasn't in a band or anything, one day he wrote a review of our show. It was like our second show, and he absolutely pasted us. He was just so horrible about it. I sat down and confronted him on the stairs at the front of Jude's house in Glasgow. I was like, "Stuart, what the fuck? Give us a chance, man." He was like, "Oh, I just thought, um, I just didn't really enjoy it." I'm like, "Fuck you, come on! It was our second show." He totally gave us a pasting, and I never forgave him.

Then one day in Glasgow at the art school—I think Stuart was at university—I think we were in second year, and it was evening. We were at the art-school bar, and there were people setting up musical equipment. I saw Stuart and I said, "Say, man. What are you doing?" He was like, "We are going to play a gig." I'm thinking, "Oh yes! This is going to be rubbish. Fucking brilliant!" So all of our mates, we all got pints, and we are sitting waiting for this horrible gig to happen, while we sit and gloat in the front row.

They were setting up and we had a few drinks. Then it all goes quiet. Stuart steps up, still playing with the wool at the end of his cardigan, and he's like, (Whispers) "Hi. We're Belle And Sebastian." "Oh God, this is going to be rubbish. He's not even projecting." He went up to the mic, and everyone is so quiet, because we couldn't bloody hear the guy talk. You could hear a pin drop and he went, (Sings.) "I was surprised / I was happy for a day" and started playing ["The State That I Am In"]. Everyone's jaws hit the floor. To this day, it was one of the best gigs I've ever been to. I was like, "Fuck! Not only are you kind of smug, but you are amazing as well." I went up to him after and was like, "I so wanted that to be shit." He was so sweet. He was like, "Thanks. Thanks a lot." That was the first gig they ever played. It was the Glasgow Arts School at the Vic Bar. They are just amazing.

I love that even the guy from Travis thinks Stuart Murdoch can be a bit much.

Mulling over what I was babbling about earlier, I think the band has always made good stuff, but it's those first couple collections of songs that earn them the reverence.

That is an awesome story.

This from John McKeown of The Yummy Fur is good too

Yeah, cos even Belle and Sebastian struggle. I heard that when they go to America they have to book a separate seat for their cello, and they don't even get the complimentary food!

No way man!!! I can just see Stuart going up to the pilot and saying "don't you know who I am?" Stuart's like the person I've known longest in Glasgow - since '86 or something. He was always like the least likely to succeed, and least likely to do a band. Stuart tried to form a Kraut-rock band with me and Lawrence once, do this, do that, and it was always" aye, aye Stuart, Another one of Stuart's mad ideas" in fact they used to be, before they did Belle and Sebastian, they were called Le Pastie De la Bourgeoisie. Me and my sister and Jamie, we lived across from Greggs, (bakery) and we spray-painted that. We wanted to do a Jean-Luc Godard meets '68 slogan, but totally empty, really empty, empty statement. But Stuart must've seen it written on the side of Greggs' wall, and took it or whatever, which I thought was quite nice.

FH: This is turning out good. Stuart (Murdoch) is an old friend of mine from Glasgow. He and I were best friends with two sisters. His friend was called Kiera, and my friend was called Jude. His dad was a really famous Irish writer; it was a big eye-opening moment in my life to get to hang out at their place, because they were so cultured. His dad would listen to classical music in his front room and stand and conduct it. He would have loads of really cool arty-fartsy people over at the house. I was just a kid, like 16 or 17. Stuart was a really nice guy, but slightly annoying. He always pulled his cardigan cuffs over his hands and twiddled with the wool at the corner. He always looked down at his feet, and I was like, "For fuck's sake!"

I think "His dad" should read "Their dad" (ie the sisters). And she's Ciara, not Kiera!

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15033795.former-belle-and-sebastian-album-model-among-ten-aspiring-writers-given-grants-to-launch-careers/

His dad was a really famous Irish writer;

Not sure if I parsed this correctly, but this is a very different picture than SM paints of his father!

XP, ah that's it.

Yes, I was thinking is his Dad really Irish because Stuart Murdoch is like the most Scottish name imaginable.

Also wasn't Stuart Murdoch like 27 or 28 when they played their first gig?

ahaha, yeah, that makes more sense if it was the friend's dad. i also watched the pitchfork doc on Sinister (which is pretty good) and stevie jackson recounts listening to Tigermilk for the first time and telling Stuart "we're going to be rich!". and after reading the travis guy's story, i was thinking "...but wasn't Stuart already rich?"

I like this:

http://www.freewilliamsburg.com/may_2001/arab_strap_interview.html

AL: How do you feel about Belle & Sebastian calling their record The Boy With The Arab Strap?

Aidan: They have a sense of humor.

Malcolm: Because Arab Strap is quite an interesting name. The words go well together. That's why we chose it as a band name. We're friends with them, but there's a limit to putting someone else's name on a album. They’re taking away something from us.

AL: Did people think it was an Arab Strap album?

Malcolm: Uh. yeah.

Aidan: Helena Christensen did.

Malcolm: Many people bought it because they thought it was a collaboration between both bands. We still see them around in Glasgow.

Btw, revisiting that album now (it's been a while)... pleased to find that the songs I used to really like (about half of them) still sound great. The title track is super...

were they pissed off about space boy dream? cause that's a parody of an arab strap song in everything but name (cool outro though)

I love Tigermilk and If You're Feeling Sinister, thought The Boy With the Arab Strap was patchy, then pretty much got off the bus until Dear Catastrophe Waitress drew me back in.

the smiths comparisons to me were mostly around the album/single art.

yeah, for sure. 90% sepia tone album art, 10% willingness to express emotional vulnerability

Looking forward to Murdoch's embracing of fascism and white supremacy.

"gather up your wings and fly" by Felt is soooo proto-B&S

I'm curious as to what general consensus is wrt "EP version" of "The State I Am In" vs. "album version" of same

I listened to the EP version approx 100x more often than the album version, has a more naked and effective vocal performance but the arrangement on the album version is just deluxe loveliness

you said it imo, the "deluxe loveliness" of the album version seals the deal for me, though I do love the ep version too

were they pissed off about space boy dream? cause that's a parody of an arab strap song in everything but name (cool outro though)

― galaxy brian (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 27 November 2018 20:00 (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

B&S had a competition to "do a window display for the "Boy with .." album, and it got won by someone who got aidan Moffatt to sit in the window etc. So, I guess it was a mixed blessing, or something.

And that's nothing compared to putting a photo of a different band entirely on the front of "Fold yr deckchair"

The State I Am In is all about the guitar coming in at 0.46, the EP version doesn't have that and I cannot forgive it

I like the addition of the rising bassline going into the choruses too, a bit of musical fellwalking

Cal Wiggum
1 month ago
This should have been played during the credits of Black Panther

[enjoyed this yt comment on "i'm a cuckoo (avalanches remix)"]

worst record, Fold Your Arms...(duh), worst track, 'Before the Sun' by a long margin (why God, why?!)

― Michael, Sunday, February 4, 2001 8:00 PM bookmarkflaglink

At their show last night, they played a neo-psych version of "Before the Sunrise" which was part Age of Aquarius and part Stone Roses, and went a long was towards rehabilitating the song.

Their setlist was heavy on tracks from Fold Your Hands, for some reason -- they're pretty self-aware about which songs/albums are fan favorites, so maybe they're making a concerted effort to improve that album's legacy?

In a recent interview about the Boaty Weekender, Stuart Murdoch said that he wants to play the entire "Fold Your Hands" album during those concert dates because the 20th anniversary of that album is coming up.

xp

Did it improve any of it for you? I did wonder when i saw the recent Manchester show setlist; SEVEN tracks from a non-classic old album.. wtf.

Also it's Stevie Jackson's 2nd least-liked album!
https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/kzgqj9/rank-your-records-belle-and-sebastian-guitarist-stevie-jackson

The new arrangement of "Before The Sunrise" was definitely a huge improvement, making me the think the primary problem with the original was that ponderous Leonard Cohen style arrangement.

They also played "Family Tree" and "The Wrong Girl", which I don't know if I'll ever come around on, and "Nice Day for a Sulk", which I've always enjoyed.

I was at the Manchester show and bloody love Fold Your Hands (#3 in the recent poll but probably #2 atm over DCW) so I was rather delighted. Especially "Women's Realm" and "There's Too Much Love" which are just absolute bangers and keep climbing on the list of my favs. Stevie's vocals really impressed me in general but maybe a little less so on "The Wrong Girl". The string arrangements throughout were just so on point though. Joyous evening.

Fold Your Hands totally deserves to be revisited/reappraised. It's B&S at their most baroque, plus "The Model" is their best song ever, imo.

i was just going to post, "The Model" is probably in my top 3 B&S songs of all time. incredible arrangement, incredible lyrics. i remember when the record came out and i was so shocked that many of my friends didn't like it!

There are a couple of good songs on it, sure, but no, please, FYHCYWLAP is really not a good album. The moment The Wrong Girl starts is their all-time nadir.

It beats the shit out of Dear Catastrophe Waitress.

Which was when I stopped paying attention. What a garbage record.

Nah, it's good. The Life Pursuit is good too. Even Storytelling is better than Fold Your Hands.

I will say my sister has exactly the same opinion as you. But she is also wrong.

DCW is totally unlistenable, it's all good.

Nah, it's good. The Life Pursuit is good too. Even Storytelling is better than Fold Your Hands.

eh, it's fine that y'all are wrong.

41,889 ILX posts can’t be wrong

DCW is just front-loaded with what seemed, in the recent poll here, to be a couple of their most divisive tracks. It's unfashionable to say it out loud, but the world is still waiting for a truly garbage B&S LP!

Surprisingly, for a forum that grew in large part from B&S fandom, there has been no mention yet of the band’s new song and video "Sister Buddha", part of a film soundtrack that will be released in September.

I must admit disappoint with the song, and it is also crazy that Stuart Murdoch chooses again to use the phrase "coffee bean" (in the singular) to complete a rhyme. It was already bad enough on "We were Beautiful". Inspiration seems to be running low.

Perhaps that is a reason that Fold Your Hands has risen in some fans’ rankings. At the time of its release, it was decried as an experiment in forced democracy, handing responsibilities over to the bandmates when people just wanted to hear Stuart Murdoch. But over time, Stevie and Sarah’s contributions have become rather more welcome, and indeed on the last couple of B&S albums a lot of the least inspired tunes IMHO were Murdoch ones.

The neo-psych version on Beyond the Sunrise might be the lengthy, mostly instrumental track I lost from my mp3 library a long time ago (vocals took a back seat). I’m still not convinced it was just some mislabeled audio galaxy download. It was realllly good.

FYHC has like 5 songs that are excellent on it ('Fought', 'Model', 'Realm', 'Family', 'Too Much Love') and the rest is straight up hard to enjoy.

That said, weirdly I feel similar about Boy With The Arab Strap, and I tend to go back to Fold Your Hands more than that album.

DCW is one of their best albums.

i agree with you for the most part, Dog Latin, though i really love "Waiting for the Moon to Rise," too, and would include it among those you mention.

would add don't leave the light on baby as well

^yup

With the exception of the last couple of albums, which I can't remember listening to, Fold Your Hands remains the Belle and Sebastian album whose entire track list scans as unrecognizable to me. Like, not ringing the slightest of bells.

it's got some of their best songs on it. Women's Realm and Too Much Love definitely so.

Is there a thread for albums like Fold Your Hands which are basically 50/50 brilliant/terrible?

chalet lines is a real nadir

Fold Your Hands is great though still, at best, their fourth or fifth best album. It's really good but the first three albums set a high bar. And those of you bagging on Dear Catastrophe Waitress are nuts.

And I was disappointed by Fold Your Hands when it first came out, which was compounded by the much worse Storytelling. I was ready to write them off but DCW and Life Pursuit resuscitated them for me, and when I eventually went back to FYH I realized it was much better than I'd originally thought. The comment about fans reacting to the democratization of the band is OTM.

Dear Catastrophe Waitress is their best album.

DCW is totally unlistenable, it's all good.

― blue light or electric light (the table is the table), Monday, July 15, 2019 12:01 AM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

This must be in jest; otherwise, this is blatant insanity. DCW isn't the best B&S album by far, but it sure as hell is the smoothest ride and most "listenable" (if we're trying to measure that in the first place) album they have to offer.

You sure picked an unlikely record to deeply dislike, Table. As much as that doesn't make sense to me, at all, I do admire that. It just leaves me wondering why you hate this album so much? Soooo many great tunes!

Can't imagine hating "If She Wants Me" or "Stay Loose" or "Wrapped up in Books" or "Lord Anthony" or...

Dear Catastrophe Waitress is their best album.

― EZ Snappin, Monday, July 15, 2019 2:34 PM (fifty minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

i've read a lot of wrong things on this board. i'd almost consider suggest banning for this wrong of a statement.

Do "Wrapped Up in Books" and "Piazza" and "Roy Walker" leave you completely cold, Table? Because damn that is some harsh shit man!

Christ DCW has a good 3 or 4 of my faves, i remain baffled by the hate.

And "Lord Anthony"? Better than anything they've done after that. xp

STAY LOOSE

- lock thread -

lol I'd love an explanation of how the album with If She Wants Me and I'm A Cuckoo on it is "totally unlistenable"

I just re-listened to it.

The production is too bright— vocals much too high in the mix, for one. It's very brassy.

I think the reason why I like FYH is because it seemed (and seems) like a sort of culmination of ideas that had been explored thus far taken to their logical and baroque extreme. DCW sounds like they decided to return to exploration, but kept the heightened production values of FYH, and it just doesn't sound right to me. It didn't when it came out, and it doesn't now.

Also, "Stay Loose" is probably the song i hate the *most* on DCW.

my favorite B&S is 'IYFS' btw

i've often thought that i just don't like anything after Stuart David left, and sort of left it at that.

Has anyone else listened to the new "Sister Buddha" track? Thoughts?

Yep. Sounded a little bland, after 1.5 listens. I keep meaning to listen to it isolated from the distraction of the video...

The Dolly Mixture, Life Without Buildings and Sacred Paws (etc) content in said video is interesting.

Double live album out tomorrow, I think

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/belle-sebastian-live-album-stuart-murdoch-interview-1097170/

Listened to the first few tracks, not digging the sound of it that much.

New one sounds like the theme song to a sitcom that's set at a boarding school:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9P7EBj8LgU

So weak. They should do another soundtrack or a collaboration with someone creative/talented.

Surprisingly, for a forum that grew in large part from B&S fandom

Touching and true.

I still listen a lot to late B&S, and today I realise something:

A difference between early and late B&S is that with early B&S, I usually know what they are singing about (sometimes obstructed by unfamiliar local reference) where with late B&S I don't (not much specific reference, just generality).

If I work at it, I can see that some songs like 'reclaim the night' are about something (stalking?). 'young and stupid' does say something though it's marred by the dire spoken word ending. But I am still not really sure what 'if they're shooting at you' or 'prophets on hold' (hope that's what it's called) are about.

I think if you can't really tell or feel what a song is about, it will be harder to 'identify with it' and the song will feel less important to you.

There's also that gazing-through-a-rain-streaked-window melancholy that is mostly absent after about 2003.

Both posts otm. I also just don’t care for the production that much. Seems to lack a certain kind of energy I wanted from them. I miss the “Neu! beats played with brushes” that fgti mentions upthread.

I like more late period B&S than most, but for me they went wrong when they moved out of the church and into the studio.

re lyric content the obvious point of comparison is with Morrissey, in that he, like B&S, started out very vivid and specific, and sometimes local, in a way that thousands of people could understand and identify with.

As far as I can tell he has latterly gone down a road of solipsism, anger, self-pity, etc, which is one way of leaving that mode (but I haven't followed his music).

B&S haven't much done that, if anything have been rather jolly and bouncy and earnest, but have, again, gone into obscure *generality* in a way that has blunted them.

There is a sub-class of late B&S which does seem very self-referential and self-reflective - 'read the blessed pages' the most obvious example, but think there are others.

I meant to add that B&S's turn to generalised jollity would slightly corroborate Tom Ewing's longago claims about B&S as 'community music' unlike Morrissey's individualism.

I remember to add this because it was Ewing who started the thread, at the time I joined ILM.

https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/belle-and-sebastian/
#onethread

I like more late period B&S than most, but for me they went wrong when they moved out of the church and into the studio.

A lot of the early sessions - including Lazy Line Painter Jane iirc - were recorded in a church hall that stewpot was janitor of, I seem to remember.

The book IN THE ALL NIGHT CAFÉ talks about early recordings. I don't seem to remember it talking about recording in a church, but it's been 6 years (since reading). I thought that for TIGERMILK, Stow College (which I see closed in 2013) was the key place.

xp Exactly, yes, and even when they were recording in the studio they (don't know how consciously) reproduced the sound of that rehearsal space, until around TBWTAS/FYHCYWLAP they kind of gradually stopped. I like what Trevor Horn did with them later but the lack of that echo is one of the many reasons I don't care for FYHCYWLAP, I'm Waking Up To Us, Jonathan David, etc.

Do I need to read IN THE ALL NIGHT CAFÉ?

I don't know if you like B&S.

People who like B&S might like to read it.

Oh I definitely liked that first run of records and still do. Saw them once in NYC way back when and then some of the members a few days later downtown in the audience at a Matador showcase I think. Maybe I even used to frequent a certain now-defunct record store whose number one best seller of all time was If You’re Feeling Sinister.

I may even remember reading Alasdair Gray’s Lanark: A Life in Four Books whilst sitting listening to B&S in the day café. No Irn-Bru was present though.

Is the implication that you don’t want to vouch for the overall quality of the book but there is still some information of interest to fans?

If go a little further than that: it was well-written and fun, and I can still remember a bunch of the anecdotes even though I read it 7 years ago.
But if you're not already invested in the first incarnation of the band, it might not resonate too much.

Would I be here if I wasn’t invested in that?

I think poster enochroot is correct to say that it's a book for people interested in B&S history, not other people.

I don't suppose it's a very well written book. I don't think the author is particularly talented.

If you do like B&S, then yes, the book is of interest for historical facts and stories.

Oddly I *can't* remember the anecdotes, though I did write about the book at the time.

(xp)
But let me listen to Tigermilk again to be sure. (Just listened to Sinister and the first half of Push Barman.)

How does it compare to that one Pogues memoir, Here Comes Everybody?

Woah, Stuart David has published five novels?

The first was when he was in the group. I like his writing style, can understand why it would rub some people up the wrong way though.

I wonder how long it will be before he appears on a certain thread of mine.

Okay, I see. Stuart M needed a place to live and fortuitiously the caretaker’s apartment and job became available at his church.

Not only did they rehearse in that church, the studio where they recorded, CaVa, had been built in the basement of a converted church. But the rehearsal church seems to be the defining factor.

Heh, our old friend Momus and his marital issues makes an appearance.

Okay, seems like this book is for me after all.

When it came my own turn to meet Vanessa, I found out she had worked with Momus in the past. Before moving to Jeepster, she’d been working for the publisher of Momus’ songs, and she said she knew him quite well. I tried to keep her on that subject, but Mark was only interested in talking about Belle and Sebastian – and while Vanessa enthused about what an exceptional talent Stuart was, Mark explained to me how everything would be fine when the band were making Stuart’s songs sound more like Radiohead.
‘Make sure this album sounds like The Bends,’ he told me – then one of the bar staff mercifully shouted to us to start moving out of the venue. I tried to shift the conversation back onto Momus, and somehow, before Vanessa disappeared, she had given me a phone number and an address where I could contact Momus if I wanted.

One thing I noticed listening through the discography for the poll last year was that all the opaque religious references which I had thought were about sexuality are actually just opaque religious references, Stuart didn't want to be thought of as a Christian rock musician but it's important to him. "The Ghost of Rockschool" on Write About Love is the first time he's non-coy about this. So the Church Hall Caretaker thing isn't just a coincidence.

Interesting. I got off the bus before that, so I never heard it. Right before that, in fact, with The Life Pursuit. Which I liked but somehow felt or knew that I really didn’t want to hear anymore.

Hmm, The BBC Sessions seem to be in my sweet spot.

BBC Sessions version of “Lazy Line Painter Jane” okay but lacks something without the vocal of Marcy MaysMonica Queen. And hey, it seems like the original version of that was recorded in the church.

So Piedie Gimbel otm about everything.

BBC Sessions version of I Could Be Dreaming fades out before the best bit.

Now having a dim memory of when Xgau mistyped Stuart M’s last name.

Heh, no mention of Stuart MUSGROVE on his page for them but still persists in a few other places.
https://www.villagevoice.com/1998/04/21/consumer-guide-4/
https://www.robertchristgau.com/get_artist.php?id=897

Thin Lizzy cover seems promising.

I'm certainly not an expert on the latter stuff, but I'm still struggling to parse the argument that B&S, the band who wrote Lazy Line Painter Jane and Stars of Track and Field and Dirty Dream No.2, and latterly wrote Nobody's Empire and Play for Today, moved from obvious realism to abstraction. Hasn't Murdoch always played with place and character, dream and fantasy?

I've probably caricatured poster pinefox's point there a bit, but I think the point stands?

The early stuff was grounded in reality, in time and place. Even if there was some element of fantasy or invention, you felt like it was someone in that time and place doing the inventing. Whereas with later stuff it just became unmoored.

Interesting. I got off the bus before that, so I never heard it. Right before that, in fact, with The Life Pursuit. Which I liked but somehow felt or knew that I really didn’t want to hear anymore.

Up until about 2010 they evolved and changed a lot. Band members came and went, increased budgets, growing success, access to different studios and producers etc. It's probably not a very popular opinion but mid period is the best - Storytelling, Dear Catastrophe Waitress and The Life Pursuit are three really good albums. After that the line-up remained absolutely static and there's nothing fresh on any of the new albums.

I don't understand 'the ghost of rockschool'.

I know they went to a 'school of rock' but the song doesn't seem to be about that.

(xp)
I can see that, although I never really got into Storytelling myself.

Chinaski:

I'm certainly not an expert on the latter stuff, but I'm still struggling to parse the argument that B&S, the band who wrote Lazy Line Painter Jane and Stars of Track and Field and Dirty Dream No.2, and latterly wrote Nobody's Empire and Play for Today, moved from obvious realism to abstraction. Hasn't Murdoch always played with place and character, dream and fantasy?

I'm afraid I can't follow your logic here. The first 2-3 songs you mention seem to be very clear, specific, concrete, whereas the last 2 seem to be obscure and more abstract. And as I say, even if they weren't, lots of other later songs do seem to be. So from my POV you rather confirm my original thought.

At the risk of being challopsy, those earlier tunes were kind of a refreshing update of 50s/60s Angry Young Man/Kitchen Sink drama filtered through The Smiths and applied to 90s Glasgow in a way that felt both familiar and new whereas the later songs, well I can’t comment on those particular ones since I never heard them but the ones I did hear didn’t sound like anything much at all.

The decline came later than people thought at the time. “Fold Your Hands Child” includes some of their best songs.

Genuinely think FYHCYWLAP might be their worst LP, it has 2-3 genuinely great songs, but also some of their worst (know we had this discussion before in the poll of course) - their last 3 LPs are a mixture of a few great songs ("I Didn't See It Coming" / "Play for Today") and the rest is pretty mediocre, which I can live with a bit more.

Dear Catastrophe Waitress / The Life Pursuit still stand up though imo

LP1 of The Life Pursuit is so fucking ace. Those glam stompers! “Another Sunny Day” murdered me every time.

You're probably right, pinefox, though I do think the point is overstated. Early Murdoch songs use local detail to make universal points; the latter songs have just removed the scaffolding a bit. I suspect it's because he exhausted his subject matter and outgrew his surroundings with success.

Taking 'Play for Today' as an example of the latter Murdoch, this could be from any album, no?

I read a play written today about a boy
Who hides in attics when the sun is up
Everyone is at work
What will I do? Where will I go?
Show me the way
The truth, the anger, show me rules of thumb
Show the way to grow old

I'm puzzled by the admiration being expressed for 'play for today' - a song that sadly does very little for me.

I think I prefer the much older Cure song of that name.

I think it's a masterpiece, fwiw.

First 4.5 minutes are solid 7/10, last three minutes are absolute masterpiece

B&S started out as music specifically about young-people things: the uncertainty of fitting in, being bohemian and somewhat carefree (except for the pain of social awkwardness), etc. My hipster acquaintances in Glasgow say that Stuart Murdoch managed to be deeply connected to and accepted by young people there into his late thirties, which I think was quite a feat, but it obviously couldn’t last forever.

My personal dividing line is God Help the Girl: suddenly these songs were less poignant observations by a peer, and more a now-old man writing about what he merely thinks young people are like. Subsequent songs about his kids (ugh) and marital contentment only widened the breach.

God forbid someone write about what's meaningful to them.

Melomane 🎯

Don’t think it’s that per se, it’s just- what is it?- a different subject might require a different approach, and vice versa. Some people are good at one thing but not the other.

If I want somebody writing about their kids, my go to one man guy is Loudon Wainwright III, and vice versa.

Is there a thread about how martial bliss / parenthood / sobriety is bad for songwriting, but B&S are far from unique here.

Even though he didn’t actually write the song entitled “Daughter,” but that fact only makes him even more the go-to one man guy.

“There is no more sombre enemy of good art than the pram in the hall.” Cyril Connolly, 19fucking55.

Is there a thread about how martial bliss / parenthood / sobriety is bad for songwriting, but B&S are far from unique here.

I don't mind the lyrics but I've found their records really ugly-sounding since "Life Pursuit" even when the songs have been alright. It's a shame they never reconnected with Trevon Horn. But I find their late period wall-of-sound approach over-fussy and the musicianship has lost a certain swing to carry it off. A bit pub rock, maybe.

Still some great tunes here and there (I Want The World to Stop, I Didn't See It Coming) and some enjoyable fluff (Party Line) and I really need to check out Peacetime again. Last time I saw live (2010ish) they were still a surprisingly fantastic live band.

Relevant new tweet from Stuart:

In January 1996, just as the band was forming, the first lp could have been so different. A double lp.. featuring such forgotten tracks as

When The Cynics Stare Back From The Wall
Girls In Peace Time Want To Dance
and, The Disenchanted Pony 😄 pic.twitter.com/Lab9YlgZEZ

— stuart murdoch (@nee_massey) November 4, 2022

Didn’t realize “Girls In Peacetime Want To Dance” as a title had been bouncing around for so long. Also sign me up for the “‘Play For Today’ is a masterpiece” club—their best song since Life Pursuit era for me, tho “I Want the World To Stop” comes close

Amazing to see multiple posters call the song 'play for today' a masterpiece when I think most B&S fans or former fans I know (a lot) couldn't even identify it.

I do know it, having made myself listen to that LP repeatedly, but don't think I could name a good thing about the track.

I do not think that Murdoch has written many songs about his children. Only one, 'I'll be your pilot', strongly comes to mind.

So I think that is a bit of a red herring re: any downturn in the content of his songs.

I don't really think he writes much about marital contentment either - maybe as much about marital struggle or doubt. The song 'calculating bimbo', which I quite like, comes to mind as possibly relevant.

I still listen to the last LP every day, and I am convinced of poster Gimbel's view that 'working boy in NYC' is the high point. It has a kind of authority that could put it on DCW.

I don't like Sarah Martin's voice but was thinking that nevertheless one could make a good enough ep from a few of her songs:

I didn't see it coming
waiting for the moon to rise
the power of three
storytelling

Fickle Season is the only B&S song that sticks in my mind from recent years and that’s a Sarah Martin song

I've never heard of it!

"I'll Be Your Pilot" isn't the only song where Stuart Murdoch mentions his kids; there is also "Nobody's Empire", and the latter song definitely gives an impression of being all settled down in life now. C'est le train du monde and I don't want to knock it too much, but such focus on family and domestic stability just feels like a sort of antithesis of early B&S.

I didn't want to give the impression that I think the band was finished after the turning point – at least not until A Bit of Previous where I decided to give up, at least for now. I always skip over "I'll Be Your Pilot", it's so cringe, but e.g. "Sunday's Pretty Icons" and (yes) "Play for Today" figure among my own B&S favourites.

Amazing to see multiple posters call the song 'play for today' a masterpiece when I think most B&S fans or former fans I know (a lot) couldn't even identify it.

lol I'm OG enough that my copy of Tigermilk literally was a cassette taped from the vinyl by Pam at Chickfactor (#losingmyedge) and I had no idea what this song was. So I googled it and ... still didn't remember it. But I did see that it's on "Girls in Peacetime...", and even though I don't remember a single thing about that album I do remember finally giving it several listens maybe just last year, possibly for the first time, and thinking, man, I can't believe I slept on this album, it's pretty good! But then I haven't listened to it since and have apparently forgotten everything about it except, ironically, that I was surprised how good it was.

everyone has their jumping off point it seems though no one seems to utterly hate that B&S still exist and put out increasingly dull LPs; they are dull, but not offensively bad. I hated the Life Pursuit myself, wasn't a big fan of Fold Your Hands either, and I really assumed I was totally done with them and then they did Dear Catastrophe Waitress which I think is their second best album.

oh wait, pursuit came after waitress, no wonder. I guess I was done with them at that point. I still go see them live when they come around though.

Ftr, I jumped off after The Life Pursuit. I came upon 'Play for Today' during the poll and it rapidly became one of my favourite B&S tracks.

my copy of Tigermilk literally was a cassette taped from the vinyl by Pam at Chickfactor

It may have been!

""I'll Be Your Pilot" isn't the only song where Stuart Murdoch mentions his kids; there is also "Nobody's Empire""

Where does that song mention his children?

girls in peacetime is my favorite post-sinister lp. the songs are just so good

"Nobody's Empire" has the line "Now I look at you, you’re a mother of two / You’re a quiet revolution". I had assumed this was a reference to Murdoch's own wife and kids, but Genius says it concerns an acquaintance. Same difference, though.

Once you’ve seen one kid you’ve seen ‘em all.

OTM

Now we're old with creaking bones
Some with partners, some alone
Some with kids and some with dogs
Getting through the nightly slog

We've come a long way from making life-size models of the Velvet Underground in clay

I don’t know that song, but those lines are pretty good, IMO

(if he can no longer credibly write about young people, this seems like what he should be writing about?)

It’s time for songs from the point of view of Doris, the supervisor

_Now we're old with creaking bones
Some with partners, some alone
Some with kids and some with dogs
Getting through the nightly slog
_


We've come a long way from making life-size models of the Velvet Underground in clay

And still nobody has explained to me how Lazy Line Painter Jane got her name.

She had a lazy eye but they didn’t let her go blind like Lisa?

"Nobody's Empire" has the line "Now I look at you, you’re a mother of two / You’re a quiet revolution". I had assumed this was a reference to Murdoch's own wife and kids, but Genius says it concerns an acquaintance. Same difference, though.

This post seems to say: not only should people not write about their children, also no-one should write a song about someone else who has had children.

I don't think that's reasonable.

I agree with poster morrisp: the lines from 'young and stupid' are OK. They refer to reality and they say something quite comprehensible. They're somewhat better, I think, than the more vapid and elusive generalities I was referring to way above with the thread revive.

'Dogs' takes us back somewhat to 'I love my car' and the dogs on the cover of that ep.

BTW my first copy of TIGERMILK was the same sort of tape of a tape, from vinyl I believe - I suspect that the same record was at the root of all these recordings - in I think 1997. I played it a lot but it made too little impression till one day on a bus I played it again and finally it sounded important and exciting. As it happened that was just when TIGERMILK was also released on CD (July 1999).

DESTROY: The ones about how independent and cool it is to be B & S or a member thereof. "Seymour Stein", "Chickfactor", "Family Tree" etc. etc. "Beyond The Sunrise" is a natural D-Side but as Hazlewood knockoffs go it's not an awful one.

― Tom, Monday, February 5, 2001

Possibly underrated post.

"This post seems to say: not only should people not write about their children, also no-one should write a song about someone else who has had children."

"Nobody’s Empire" exists in a context: it’s a looking-back-decades song about an acquaintance settled down with children, when the songwriter himself is also long since settled down. It just underscores how this band is now far removed from the scene and concerns that got them their fan base and recognition, because you can't imagine any of the bohemian or angsty protagonists of the early records' songs expressing domestic contentedness.

B&S have maintained the same band name, still play those classic songs, and have new songs and album photography that still center young people, but they are clearly old people now. I just suggested this is one reason why people might feel the records after year X are less magical or convincing than the early ones.

They're not old people - they're middle-aged.

You don't get a state pension here till about 67!

I mostly agree with that description of that song, though it's notable that the song is in fact, as far as I recall, very 'angsty' indeed - talking about doubt, despair, whatever, which the singer has, perhaps, come through. I don't think it's a serene and smug song.

I agree that 'marital contentment' etc is potentially less interesting than other topics or moods, but this is still, surely, only a minority of late B&S songs. Most of them are about something else?

Just tried to listen to the latest one and I gotta say I can barely even stand Stuart’s voice. It’s like his early voice stood still and backslid a bit while it lost the supportive context that made it work. It’s as if Elvis sang “Suspicious Minds” (or “Clambake” even tbh) in his “Baby, Let’s Play House” voice except, well…

the world needs a good "40 years of brutal, diminishing, codependence, ending with horrible illness and loss" songwriter. but also sometimes twee. i think he'll get there.

And still nobody has explained to me how Lazy Line Painter Jane got her name.

She painted the yellow lines that followed the roads she had traveled on a canvas? If she was lazy about painting or traveling (or attributed to laziness something else) maybe the canvas would not have to be so large.

https://www.heartachewithhardwork.com/2009/08/please-stop-me-there-im-even-boring-myself.html

^Title is a lie though

> I’m gonna say that was a tape of a tape...

vinyl -> minidisk (with added session tracks, demos) -> tape -> pam, i think, depending on when it was done

a different lifetime

(one without mp3s)

I think that's what I had, Koogs: the extra tracks included 'London has let me down again', 'Hurley's having dreams', 'Pocketbook Angel' ?

Is there a way to hear those now? Surprised they’ve never done an expanded reissue…

I had the same tape, from someone on s******r, long forgotten who it was.
tigermilk + demos + bbc radio scotland interview where they chose these songs:

Tom Waits - The Earth Dies Screaming
Glen Campbell & Bobby Gentry - Little Green Apples
Queen - Don't Stop Me Now

Never heard the interview, wasn't part of the package for me.

It's odd that those earliest songs have never been formally released. Some of them were at least as good as most of B&S's later work.

I’m gonna say that was a tape of a tape

I think Pocketbook Angel etc were pretty much Stuart Murdoch solo demos, pre-band, so maybe that explains why they’ve never been released, at least under the B&S name.

well there was Rhode Island before there was B&S. played before the pastels at a neil street rough trade shop in-store the once.

Re: the name "Lazy Line Painter Jane," the best explanation I read was this: https://songmeanings.com/songs/view/3530822107858525114/?&specific_com=73015023512#comments
As for the whole song, this explains a lot: https://songmeanings.com/songs/view/3530822107858525114/?&specific_com=73015735651#comments

For those who got off the B&S bus after, say, DCW or TLP, I would suggest trying the first five songs of "Girls in Peacetime Want to Dance"; the whole album is solid (definitely my favorite since TLP), but I put those five songs on repeat regularly.
I also really loved "God Help the Girl" and Catherine Ireton's singing especially - "Come Monday Night" is absolutely perfect, and "A Down and Dusky Blonde" goes through my head all the time (I love those biting lyrical tidbits..."forgive yourself and eat," "trick photography on speed," "the truth is crushing like a heel" etc.) Don't bother with the soundtrack album, though.

That’s a good reading of the song, but I think think "And you hope that she/they will see" refers to the girl/boy that she will have tonight.

(I’m also not sure about the “kit for games” verse, but it’s pretty opaque)

tbh, most of that explanation doesn't ring accurate to me.

The 'kit for games' verse, she's forgotten her proper kit but games is compulsory. So, she borrows a boys jumper (doubtless he's got his own proper kit) and still is a better runner than the rest of 'em.

Licking railings, I don't know so I can't say it's wrong as such. Anyone else heard similar?

I also thought “licking railings” was literal (like the jumper); that write-up makes a good case that’s it not… but is that, like, a known euphemism(?)

I thought she was so weird/unstable that she literally went around licking railings.

Rhode Island must have played ... 'Rhoda'?

I shouldn't have clicked on the LLPJ analysis page. Unpleasant.

I do think that many of the songs on GOD HELP THE GIRL are surprisingly excellent. I don't know who the singers are, and always had trouble with them. I haven't heard the other LP of it and don't know why there are two LPs.

Rishi Sunak will make a speech to Cop making the cause for ‘clean growth’. Wealth creation without wrecking the planet. I don’t care which party he speaks for, I support this statement and believe it is possible, and a way to sell planet saving to the rest of the world.

— stuart murdoch (@nee_massey) November 7, 2022

he is a bit of a melt, though he also lays into the tories sometimes in a way melts rarely do, on balance would say he's come out of the social media era better than most of his generation

There are quite strong arguments that all growth is bad and we need degrowth.

Though there are also quite strong arguments that green growth is possible and necessary.

I don't feel sure that Murdoch has really looked into the nuances of these detailed positions.

I think in his tweet what is more notable is the banality - as if no-one has ever talked about clean growth or green growth as a rhetorical approach before. I am quite an ignorant person, but even to me Murdoch can seem naive.

yeah his political philosophy is basically "well-meaning but ill-informed and lacking in insight" and I wish he would either learn about these things or shut up about them.

He was on QT recently and by all accounts didn't really say anything. odd he went on. also odd (imo) are people on twitter who follow 0 other people.

I agree with both those points. It is odd that he follows no-one.

He said very little on QT, made very little of the opportunity to talk in public - so why put himself through it? Was really hard to understand.

I won’t pretend I can unravel the entire lyrics to lazy line painter jane but I’m 100% sure that “running miles in some boys jumper” does not refer to having standing-up sex in the middle of the street while wearing the same shirt, that’s an extremely bizarre reading.

Yes, that would be wrong. I'm glad I didn't read that far.

"Don't bother with the soundtrack album, though."

Or the film itself. After reviews that were either merely polite or scathing (and the social-media critique of Murdoch for not including non-white characters), God Helps the Girl seems to have been rather forgotten even among B&S fans.

I like some aspects of the film, just can't stand the lead male actor.

HI DERE!

She runs alot in the short story in the liner notes to the single:

https://i.discogs.com/_xfZOalsljXGpxrmJ1X9on6etnGgK5d98SAGx09jypo/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTM2ODk2/NS0xMjg4Njk4MTk1/LmpwZWc.jpeg

Forgot to note that I saw a Belle and Sebastian Illustrated Lyrics book on a table at the front of The Strand yesterday.

Alice and I watched "God help the girl", and liked it a lot

It helped that Alice was basically on the way to 'modern music uni' at the time, so it was pretty much what she was doing right then!

The wife and I both enjoyed the movie and the albums. After that is when I stopped paying them much attention.

How many B&S songs mention Lisa, I wonder.

Y'all made my curious about QT, which I'd not seen before. That episode is on Youtube. A more generous assessment might be that the moderator didn't give Murdoch all that many opportunities?

ok, i literally could not understand the first questioner's question. at second listen i caught "liz truss," "common market," and "too far." skeered, yup, but i'll try.

Come off better than most of his generation on social media? Perhaps - to his credit, he hasn't gone down the TERF route like certain Glasgow indie popsters - but his meltdown over the P4K article about systemic racism in indie was a pure riddy. In fairness, I think there's been some reflection on this. I think naivety is the word.

https://athousandflowers.net/2015/03/30/weekly-wanker-049-stuart-murdoch/

I’m sorry to have my attention drawn to Murdoch’s Twitter feed. It’s put me off him a bit, honestly. This thread is Adrian Chiles-level discourse.

It makes me think that fundamentally the banks aren’t so bad after all. They keep our money for us, but they look upon it like a loan, and they pay us interest. Just like when they lend us money to buy a house, but they charge us interest. It’s the same rules.😎

— stuart murdoch (@nee_massey) November 5, 2022

She runs a lot in the short story in the liner notes to the single

The liner notes on Belle and Sebastian releases put me off listening to them for ages. This reminds me why.

I met someone who was working for the band on their cruise who referred to the film as 'God Help Us All'

Haha, I had to give up on the film. Just so badly conceived and executed, and its twee bohemian fantasy Glasgow with no working class or POC in it (apart from the brief appearance of some drug dealing "hooligans") is ghastly. A pal who went to a screening of a rough cut said there was a scene where the lead makes a comment about neds and cockroaches being the only things to survive the apocalypse. Thankfully somebody had a word and it was cut...

yeah the reaction to the pitchfork article was bad, though to be fair he did reflect on it a bit at least and did seem to learn something. his melty "let's be reasonable" stuff has me rolling my eyes, and is why I muted him a while back.

I would put musicians on social media into four camps:

* Never post or only post about new releases, etc. (this is 50%+ and is probably the best option)
* Post reasonable moderate centrist both-sides stuff which is frustratingly nieve, ill-informed and completely maladaptive to an environment like Twitter (Stew and quite a lot of others fit in here, maybe 20%)
* Understand the discourse, are politically sound and know that Twitter is for shitposting and dunking (You can count these people on your fingers, they are so few)
* Have disappeared down a rabbit hole of TERFism, antivaxxers, covidiots, MAGAs, freeze peach, etc. most likely sparked by someone daring to disagree with them once (this is unfortunately something like 20% too)

So all I would say is, better in group 2 than group 4.

Perhaps - to his credit, he hasn't gone down the TERF route like certain Glasgow indie popsters

Naming names is a must here.

Albini is my favorite twitter music person.

Alan from Low is very good as well.

Just so badly conceived and executed, and its twee bohemian fantasy Glasgow with no working class or POC in it

... or Glaswegians.

the band on their cruise

Francis MacDonald from TFC has shared plenty of GC stuff, although he's been quieter on that front of late. He's the most prominent, but others have dabbled, defended their TERFy pals, or made winding up woke lefties part of their tired contrarian schtick. I've also seen people radicalised by some nasty arts/media TERFS. Pretty clear this nonsense is one of the reasons Katrina from the Pastels set up a trans solidarity campaign.

There's a lot of privileged 90s liberalism going round the old Glasgow indie scene. As a result this stuff gets a free pass, as if it's just an "opinion", or people don't say anything cos they don't want to upset the applecart. It's depressing to see the likes of Norman Blake and Mogwai working with or remixing the atrocious Fat Cops - surely they can't be unaware of McColm and Deerin's numerous transphobic columns and tweets, or the fact their keyboard player is married to JKR.

So with all that in mind, good on Murdoch for endorsing Graham Norton's "accountability" comments and saying nice things about Eddie Izzard.

*helped set up* that should say.

Bunch of smug self-satisfied cliquey cunts anyway, always have been

the atrocious Fat Cops

i had never heard of them. had a listen. atrocious seems too kind.

Just checked them out, full agreement. Articles say it's Al Murray the comedian singing, but it's surely another Al Murray.

As if one Al Murray isn't bad enough.

To me Al Murray is Al Molinaro who played Murray the Cop on The Odd Couple and owned Al's Diner on Happy Days.

Ha, atrocious is indeed too kind.

Al Murray the Pub Landlord (for non-UK readers, a shit one joke comedian) is indeed in the band. Don't think he's the singer though, although he may well sing some of their numbers from behind the drum kit. The frontman is Chris Deerin, the New Statesman's clueless Scotland editor. Two sneering centre-right hacks, a crap comedian, a Glasgow indie veteran and JK Rowling's husband: the house band of the worst bits of British Twitter. Their only fans appear to be JK Rowling and (UK media failson) Alex Massie. They're on Last Night From Glasgow, who mostly sell fancy vinyl reissues of 90s Glasgow indie to Bearsden dads. It's widely speculated that at least one of the band is behind misogynist Twitter account Brian Spanner, who has now reinvented himself as a gender critical champion of women having deleted all his posts calling a female politicians "torn faced c*nt"

Worst band line up ever?

I used to have fun innocently sharing with Al Murray far-right racists using his catchphrases ("beautiful British name" etc.) on Twitter, asking if he supported them, until eventually he blocked me. his joke is "pretending to be a racist to make fun of racists, but if you're a racist you can also enjoy it because I'm never going to call you out on it" which is kind of the worst of all worlds.

Privately educated Oxbridge wanker pretending to be a working class racist because working class people are racist aren't they?

How is it that so many threads on ILM in 2022 eventually end up complaining about "TERFs"? I don’t see this on other extent music fora, often discussing the same bands.

Not a fair description of Last Night in Glasgow label imo. They've released a few new albums from veteran Scottish acts and four or five reissues but otherwise it's mostly new stuff.

xp to be fair we've also covered racists, Oxbridge wankers and sneering centre-right hacks, though guess it has to be admitted that we've gone a bit off topic. call it the spirit of Sinister maybe.

it's because terfism is britain's main cultural export these days it's far more relevant than old twindie acts who may or may not be hitching their wagons to it

why the scare quotes is it because the acronym doesn't accurately describe what the movement has become or is it for a worse reason

JKR's husband is some doctor, isn't he?

he's definitely some wanker

lol

I mean, I do not believe JKR's husband is in some scottish band unless I've missed something

Seeing is believing.

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/4606389/jk-rowling-fat-cops-admiral-bar-glasgow/

fukcing weird

most likeable person in that article is the PA who stole her money

It's just a dad band that no-one would pay any attention to if it didn't have a couple of media people and aging rocker Bobby Bluebell in it.

use of the word "hubby" there is yet more evidence for the convergence of tweeness with fascism

"why the scare quotes is it because the acronym doesn't accurately describe what the movement has become or is it for a worse reason"

Not scare quotes but quotes to emphasize the foreignness of that acronym to me. I live in a country where B&S, for instance, is a longtime favourite of the local hipster scene, but trans issues aren't even really on the radar here. Even directly in the English-speaking world, I question how readily that acronym would be used by the majority of B&S fans – after all, a lot of fans are aging and have not necessarily taken an interest in social issues whose prominence is more recent than the band’s twee heyday.

(And yes, from my distance, the acronym seems inaccurate. I often see it applied to people who wouldn't necessarily identify as RF or even F, or whose views might be part of a particular larger dogma that expressly opposes RF or even F.)

It's mostly people in the B+S age range who seemed most exercised about this particular issue.

TERF acronym is only accurate for a minority faction within the gender fascist coalition the rest are mostly TELFs or TEs but TERF is what stuck to describe this movement and it seems to upset the right people

the presumed apathy about social issues feels similar to the pitchfork thing about normative whiteness in indie the reaction to which demonstrated its point and revealed the deep investment in white supremacy from these putatively apolitical aging indie kids

I don't know where you are but the terf war is uniquely dominant in britain/scotland- repressive forces elsewhere are only just picking up on its effectiveness as a rhetorical and political strategy

I might be out of the age range so I'm more interested in terfism and the spaces that reproduce it than in B&S or indie in general but I'm hardly surprised that the cultural milieu that took 40 years to cancel morrissey is a fertile breeding ground for this stuff

Morrisey's playing a 10,000 seat venue here this weekend. It's close to sold out and the cheapest tickets are $100. I think he's doing just fine.

I overestimate britain sometimes

wait where's here. I overestimated whatever place that is

Toronto.

still the british empire then