When Santana was great!

I like Abraxas (not all of it). I even liked some stuff from Supernatural, actually, but I tend to like anything that puts cha cha cha on mainstream radio. There are probably other Santana recordings I would like, but I don't feel inspired to sift through all the other stuff.

Depends what you liked and/or didn't like about the original. The remastering apparently brings Larry Young's organ much higher in the mix, which, for anyone who's ever heard Lawrence Of Newark, is a very good thing indeed.

There's also a live album that Santana did with Buddy Miles from the crater of an active volcano in Hawaii that is fucking phenomenal, but I can't remember the title of it for the life of me.

(I'm a little worked up over this, obv.)

>On this 're-master,' one can hear Young's real contribution to the sessions for the first time: he is mixed much higher here allowing all of his otherworldly chords, syncopations, and harmonic inventions to be heard at their proper weights.

'Love Devotion Surrender' is pretty much a studio jam and tribute to Coltrane between Carlos Santana with most of Mahavishnu and other jazz players. It was a different kind of thing and wasn't recorded by 'the band' that was known as Santana.

Is it my imagination, or is there a bit of influence of the Grupo de Experimentación Sonora and Leo Brouwer in one or two of the tracks on Step Forward?

I haven’t noticed it, but it’s very likely. The two things which pushed me to abandon rock as a form of expression were the Grupo de Experimentaciòn with Brouwer, Silvio Rodríguez, etc and the albums of Carlos Santana which fused Cuban elements with sixties and seventies rock. The Grupo de Experimentaciòn established a very innovative way of interpreting the Cuban music of its time. Leo Brouwer, in particular, is a Mozart of this era.--http://www.fly.co.uk/fly/archives/2005/06/juan_de_marcos_gonzalez_-_stepping_forward_and_setting_the_record_straight.html

No home is complete without a Lotus triple lp.

Enchanting and blissed-out, but not in a cheesy way. Laswell subtly intensifies the cosmicness of the original material.

The recent deluxe reissue of the first Santana album includes a second disc with the entire Woodstock live set. If you don't have the first one on CD, it is worth the extra couple of bucks to get this one. The remasters of the Santana albums sound excellent.

Sony has done this with a few other releases putting a second disc of archieve live material on Johnny Winter's Second Winter, Muddy Water's Mississippi Muddy Waters Live and Who's Next. In fact, all of the Sony reissues of the Blue Sky Muddy Waters records are doubled in length with outtakes and live tracks. All of those are worth checking out. Sony does a nice job with their reissues, other labels should take note.

Call me crazy, but I actually want to hear this:

http://www.santana.com/Content/News/SANTANA_GUITAR_HEAVEN_Cover_art1.jpg

1. Whole Lotta Love (featuring Chris Cornell)
2. Can t You Hear Me Knocking (featuring Scott Weiland)
3. Sunshine Of Your Love (featuring Rob Thomas)
4. While My Guitar Gently Weeps (featuring India.Arie & Yo-Yo Ma)
5. Dance The Night Away (featuring Pat Monahan)
6. Back In Black (featuring Nas and Janelle Monáe)
7. Riders On The Storm (featuring Chester Bennington & Ray Manzarek)
8. Smoke On The Water (featuring Jacoby Shaddix)
9. Photograph (featuring Chris Daughtry)
10. Bang A Gong (featuring Gavin Rossdale)
11. Little Wing (featuring Joe Cocker)
12. I Ain t Superstitious (featuring Jonny Lang)
13. Fortunate Son (featuring Scott Stapp)
14. Under The Bridge (featuring Andy Vargas)

When Santana wasn't great:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOlInOTWl_w

Been enjoying the Laswell record a lot. Swing of Delight is pretty good as well. My Spotify mix of When Devadip was great:

http://open.spotify.com/user/124420673/playlist/0WisRpkEiY7pMKtMbNGnr0

Digging into the Carlos Santana & Buddy Miles Live! album now. It opens with an absolutely blistering version of John McLaughlin's "Marbles" (from the awesome Devotion) that features Carlos and Neil Schon doing some impressive duetting.

Onto the 25-minute "Free Form Funkafide Filth" now, which, a few minutes in, does not appear to be as noteworthy as its title.

^^^ listening to this now, for the first time in 30 years. Totally transporting me to my teenhood. I was fascinated by side-long jams as a kid, but I pretty much skipped "FFFF" even back then.

There's a great essay to be written (perhaps it has been in the liners to the LD&S reissue, which I don't have, or the Stump book which is on its way to me) on the relationship between Santana and McLaughlin. On the surface, you'd think these guys might not be compatible -- it sounds like Santana was kind of in awe of McLaughlin's technical prowess. But they shared a lot in common: a guru, a love of Coltrane, affection for each other's compositions (Santana played "Marbles" from Devotion on the Buddy Miles record and "Meditation" from LD&S is on Lotus). Here's a good quote from the Mahavishnu book:

Carlos Santana:I felt really comfortable being next to John. I looked at John as a brother who, like B.B. King or Buddy Guy, was someone that was there before me in that arena with Miles. I had loved what he had done onIn A Silent WayandBitches Brew. I was coming from the mentality of thinking that jazz was an ocean and that there were also lakes, swimming pools and bathtubs. I knew I couldn’t go to the ocean where Charlie Parker, Coltrane, Miles and Wayne hung out. That was a whole other thing for me and I respect that. But, I can hang out in the deep end of the lake! Once I got the confidence I needed, that even with John McLaughlin, I could hold my own...

I'm pretty sure there's some stuff about McLaughlin (and that whole era of Santana) in Carlos's autobiography from a couple of years ago. I remember flipping through it specifically looking for the chapters on the early '70s.

Actually, it came out last year, and was co-written with Ashley Kahn, who's done some decent jazz books.

I love LDS, some scorching guitar stuff on there. Quite transcendental in places.
There's a tour for the lp that has something like 10 shows shared which somebody talks about 1 date from somewhere earlier in the thread I think. Dates were shared on at least Dime and Trader;'s Den, I'm not sure if they're up there still but what I heard was great.
I meant to pick up the most recent remaster of the LDS cd but haven't got around to it.

I think Santana was interesting live up through 1973, possibly a little later. I do love that Bitches Brew like fusion stuff he was playing with the Lotus era band anyway.
I do also really like the Fillmore '68 set, but is it the 1st lp line up or one previous to that. Not sure where mine is at the moment.

Got to say I am pretty curious about the Santana IV record coming out next week which is a reunion of the Santana III lineup with Neal Schon, Greg Rollie, Michael Shrieve and Michael Carabello with Ronald Isley guesting on three songs on vocals.

the abraxas pool album (schon/rollie/shrive) from the 90s is terrible.

carabello's on it too

Sony put out that 2 CD version of Santana III that has a bonus live show of that version of the band and it is excellent.

man it's a hot one

I've heard a little bit of Santana IV; it's a lot slicker than they sounded in 1971, obviously, but there's some very cool instrumental stuff, too.

I gave my copy of Abraxas (think it was an original pressing) to a friend who loves Santana just recently and now I'm starting to regret it.

this is great -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8dGh1iEmCY

am curious about the new album with the original lineup.

New album is pretty good. Slicker and more commercial hard rock than previous albums by this lineup, obviously - there's one song that's blatantly trying to be another "Smooth," and it's not even one of the two that Ronald Isley sings - but there's still plenty of hot instrumental stuff in between the radio-friendly tracks.

I'm quite fond of early Santana, but to be honest I'd sooner listen to a Mandrill record.

"Jazz-rock supergroup" Mega Nova: Carlos, Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, Marcus Miller, Cindy Blackman Santana, apparently just for one-off at Hollywood Bowl--bet there will be an album, legit or not: http://www.rollingstone.com/music/features/inside-carlos-santanas-new-jazz-rock-supergroup-w434803

New album sucks

Better than Abraxas Pool, though

Honestly surprised Turrican fucks with Santana!

that supergroup has got my number

Marcus Miller would not have been my choice of bassist for that group. Better options, in order:

- Michael Henderson ('70s Miles band)
- Buster Williams (Mwandishi)
- Stanley Clarke
- Tony Levin (saw him with Santana in the late '80s)
- Bill Laswell

man marcus miller plays bass on cupid & psyche he can be in any supergroup he wants

curious what Brad thinks of "Say It Again."

i haven't before now but i feel extremely positive about the first thirty seconds

lol

Marcus Miller shreds! Fuiud

I liked him a lot with Miles, especially We Want Miles and Tutu, but would prefer someone with more of a '70s jamming mindset with Santana. I've never heard Cupid & Psyche and that's unlikely to change.

He seems fluid and versatile enough to succeed with that sound, idk. We'll see I guess.

- Michael Henderson ('70s Miles band)
- Buster Williams (Mwandishi)
- Stanley Clarke
- Tony Levin (saw him with Santana in the late '80s)
- Bill Laswell

that band has a big bottom

Just heard "Open Invitation" from Inner Secrets (https://youtu.be/cQP_05hTYWg) on Pandora--Santana biting Zep or Whitesnake or something for one of the most "1978" Rock records you can imagine.

Wasn't Inner secrets the album they recorded down the hall from Prince when he was tracking For You (and where he met Sheila E)?

"santana supergroup" just brings back bad memories of that mclaughlin thing he did in '73.

But Love Devotion Surrender is a fantastic lp with a great bunch of live sets from a supporting tour.

& it's got Larry Young onboard and everything

^^^^ otm

^^^^ otm

― who is extremely unqualified to review this pop album (BradNelson),

hancock/shorter jazz fest set was one of my favorite musical experiences of 2016

honestly it was the best thing i've ever seen prob

someone uploaded a longer video of it finally

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3agp0ejoGs

i think it was essentially 3-4 improvised pieces over 45 minutes

herbie handcock, the porn version of herbie hancock

ugh carlos is the bono of lead guitarists

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Iel_DGhklw

https://youtu.be/1Iel_DGhklw

or, the jordan crawford or something.. total disregard for feel and integration, just "here i go shredding away, look out everyone"

oh man. Excerpts:

[u]It certainly was a very hot one!

Cast of characters:

Carlos Santana
Rob Thomas
Itaal Shur (co-author)
Matt Serletic (producer)
Brian Yale (Matchbox Twenty bass player)
Bono (Bono)
Marcus Raboy (Music Video Director)
Marisol Maldonado (Thomas’ wife, the Spanish Harlem Mona Lisa)

The year was 1999. Carlos Santana and Rob Thomas recorded “Smooth” and it quickly became one of the most ubiquitous and successful singles of all time. Whether you love it or hate it, “Smooth” remains a career defining moment for both Santana and Thomas, and continues to evoke strong and passionate reactions seventeen years later. Here now is the untold and often harrowing story of how “Smooth” came to be, in the words of those who lived through the life-changing experience.
Chapter I: A Hot Day

Carlos Santana: It is difficult to remember much about the song “Smooth” featuring Rob Thomas because I do not care and it does not really matter. But I believe it all started when Jamiroquai rang me on the telephone to tell me about his boring day.

This may or may not be 100% real.

Matt Serletic (producer): It’s been confirmed again and again that Jamiroquai made no such call. Everyone knows Jamiroquai has no phone. And if he did, he wouldn’t know how to use it. [laughs uncontrollably]

Itaal Shur (co-writer): Santana’s people reached out to me to see if I had a song up my big sleeves that would close out their concept album. The only direction they gave me is that it should make the listener visualize sexual-intercourse.[/i]

Thomas: I didn’t even know who Carlos Santana was at this point. I actually thought he was the guy that who was in charge of Libya

and

Thomas: “Room 17” was a great song. Maybe the best I’ve ever heard. It made me super horny. I loved it. But something was missing. So I changed the lyrics, the melody, and everything else about it. When I sat down to re-write my intention was not only to write a song that makes the listener want to bone another human being, but to write a song that could [here, Thomas closes his eyes] kill God.

Maldonado: Mr. Santana was not pleased with the line about the Spanish Harlem Mona Lisa. I don’t blame him. That line means nothing to Rob, and it makes me throw up every time I think about it.

Santana: I said, “What the hell is this Spanish Harlem Mona Lisa crap all about, white boy?” Rob said nothing for a moment. Finally, he smiled like a murderer and told me nothing means anything until the Kingdom of Heaven burns. I have to admit, the kid had guts. [laughs]

http://www.gq.com/story/santana-rob-thomas-smooth-oral-history?mbid=social_facebook

Just got my copy of the super deluxe Japanese reissue of Lotus in the mail. It was triple vinyl originally, and a double CD when it was reissued in the 90s, but now it's a triple CD, fully remastered in surround sound (it's a hybrid SACD) to replicate the original quadrophonic mix, plus it's got 7 previously unreleased tracks adding 35 minutes of music. It's in a 5"x5" package that folds out like the vinyl edition used to, has two thick-ass booklets, a poster, and a whole bunch of other shit. It's crazy. No plans for a US release as far as I know.

Shit that sounds awesome. Lotus is such a great record. SACD is the one surround format I still don't have – otherwise I would be all over that.

I had my eye on that, importcds had it for $6x, now it's $72, too much.

If you saw the physical package, you wouldn't hesitate. It's seriously one of the most beautiful things ever. And the music sounds fantastic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Hs2SjSqJjw

I wrote a big piece about Santana's "white suit" years for VinylMePlease, because I've always wanted to write about this whole era, and they accepted the pitch.

digging that article phil and ALSO digging these santana albums that i haven't revisited since i was 14 prob

There are some pretty dope tracks on those '70s records, especially when he's not soloing. I like the ones that are basically Rhodes, bass, and a blizzard of thinly-recorded percussion.

Been on a run listening to the first three Santana albums. That original band was something else. I really am impressed on how those records sound as the way they pan it out with the percussion gives it a real deep stereo sense of space.

The Santana records, the main kit is panned a bit to the right with one of the percussionists and then they have the other panned usually to the left. Then the deep congas are right in the middle of the mix with the bass. I'm sure some of those big old style CBS studios they used probably helped too, as all of those Columbia records usually always sounded great.

You listen to some of the Dead's studio recording with their two drummers, it's like the band loses a bit of the low end out of the percussion. It would have definitely been cool to have a studio version of That's It for the Other Ones with that kind of production quality of the first three Santana records.

Best music.

If you had asked me previously if had heard Lotus I would have said yes, but I'm listening to it today and I have no recollection of Leon Thomas' yodelling on it. I saw Santana around the time it was recorded (1973? 1974?) but he must have been replaced by then. Anyway, cool record.

Leon Thomas also sang on "Welcome" which was the studio record before Lotus. I don't think Lotus was released in the US until the CD age. "Borboletta" is also a fusion record too and worth hearing too.

I just started into the next group of Santana groups hearing Amigos, Festival and Moonflower for the first time this year. Only heard them once though so far...

Man, Caravanserai is a very satisfying listen. Easily one of his best.

yea it is really good!

I heard Abraxas for the first time in ages over the weekend and it prompted me to listen to some more. I don't think I'd heard Caravanserai for 20+ years.

Man, Caravanserai is a very satisfying listen. Easily one of his best.

early sunday evening with sunshine colours filling the house.
glass of wine poured.
food on the go in the oven.
this album is the absolutely perfect soundtrack.

Huh I don’t think I’ve heard Caravanserai at all. I guess I need to listen to it today.

My copy is whipped... I'm due for an upgrade. Shouldn't be hard to find but I never see it clean, whereas I have probably 5 copies of Abraxas I've picked up on the cheap or free

On unperson's recommendation, I listened to "Africa Speaks" and found it to be quite good on the whole. A little overlong- I guess he cut 40 tunes and edited down to 11 running 66 minutes. Anyway, it's really a good listen and happily is recorded well. As usual for a Santana record, the percussion sounds fantastic.

I was surprised in poking around how much music he's put out in recent years. I only just found out earlier this year that he'd done an album with the mostly-original Santana band, and hadn't been aware of his album with the Isleys at all. Anyway, I'm pretty impressed that he's out there still making new music.

was also pleasantly surprised by Africa Speaks, almost bailed at the corny spoken word at the beginning, glad I didn't

SHIT GODDAMN

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKprh6mejgg

Also want to report that through the Emitt rhodes thread of all places I discovered that Jose "Chepito" Areas put out a solo album in '74 that's on Spotify and is quite dope. A lot like early Santana, but with less guitar and more horns, plus the keyboard player utilizes an Arp from time to time.

“Yours Is the Light” from Welcome sounds like Carlos enlisted The Free Design to front the band.

Count me in the Lotus brigade. There's this great moment on it where he busts out momentarily with the melody from "My Favorite Things", ending it with a climb up to a high-pitched wail. If you need only one moment to grasp the man's essential greatness (and I pretty much did)...

FWIW, I believe the moment in question happens during "Incident At Neshabur." Count me in too - as good as those first three albums are, I think Lotus is THE Santana masterpiece, easily Carlos's greatest album, not to mention the greatest configuration of the band.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiYBWwE0EvI

Somebody points out in the comments on that video that Carlos Santana was only 26 in 1973.

In my high school art class, one of my fellow students seemed to paint nothing but portraits of Miles Davis and Carlos Santana. On our outing to the art gallery, he kept encouraging us and the teacher to take turns listening to Lotus on his Walkman.
I still haven't heard it, though, partly because I found Welcome pretty dull and so wasn't that interested in exploring his jazz phase any further.

Lotus is closer to Agharta than any kind of jazz. It'll take your head off.

Goddammit:

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/carlos-santana-anti-trans-comments-concert-1234811691/

he old. the crowd seems to be fine with it...

i tell you what, sometimes it seems like i ain't got nobody that i can depend on.

it's actually pretty fucking wild, carlos santana feels the need to get up and stage and announce his beliefs about my gender identity. carlos, i put half a sliced up chicken sausage in my leftover gluten-free spaghetti for lunch. what are your feelings about that? is it right? wrong? please, carlos, the world is waiting to hear your opinion about this pressing issue!

shutting up is so utterly free and these dudes still gotta say "I'm weighing in!" fuckin', awful.

I've noticed this thing with many boomers who are generally/generically progressive is do not get them started on Trans issues or pronouns.

The free love generation

this guy has always been a pseudo spiritual nitwit

like what is this horseshit supposed to mean?

“Here is my personal goal that I strive to achieve every day. I want to honor and respect all person’s ideals and beliefs whether they are LGBTQ or not,” he wrote. “This is the planet of free will and we have all been given this gift. I will now pursue this goal to be happy and have fun, and for everyone to believe what they want and follow in your hearts without fear. It takes courage to grow and glow in the light that you are and to be true, genuine, and authentic. We grow and learn to shine our light with Love and compliments. Have a glorious existence. Peace.”

"please remember me for how much my triple live album _lotus_ shreds and not for the colossally dumb shit i said towards the end of my life. thank you."

Devadipshit Carlos Santana

okay lol

On the big 1999 album he wrote shit like "Dave Matthews! My soul brother! May our souls dance through the cosmos!" or some shit -- the sort of thing that Woody Allen would make fun of in 1977. These hippies are more dangerous than the GOP because they support a kind of inclusion that looks and talks like them

"please remember me for how much my triple live album _lotus_ shreds and not for the colossally dumb shit i said towards the end of my life. thank you."

I'm trying very hard to do exactly this.

I actually did like Santana and Lotus is a great live album, but I'm not sure he ever made a truly great studio album - I have reservations about even the best of them, and after 1975, I'm not sure he ever put out another track that I'd want to listen to again, let alone a whole album. He could still be a great guitarist - in late 1980, on three consecutive nights, Bob Dylan had three different guitarists sit in on "The Groom’s Still Waiting at the Altar" and Santana came out on top - but it also means he's no longer anything more than a good show on the nostalgia circuit. And now that's been ruined by his transphobia.

I'm not sure he ever made a truly great studio album - I have reservations about even the best of them, and after 1975, I'm not sure he ever put out another track that I'd want to listen to again, let alone a whole album.

I don't want to have the conversation in any more depth than this, I really don't, but I'll rep for everything from the debut through Borboletta, which was 1974, and then it was pretty much 45 years of pandering swill until Africa Speaks, which came out in 2019. (That was when I interviewed him.)

So I guess he’s not great anymore.

people live too long now.

if he had choked on his own vomit and died when he was 30 we would all have santana tattoos. well, i wouldn't but more people would. you gotta think of these things when you are young. remembering to die that is.

(i will always love pretty much everything he did in the 70s - like, ALL of it - but that plane crash in january of 1981 - so soon after brother lennon - i'll never forget where i was. hardees. waterbury, connecticut.)

people live too long now.

This is really going to interfere with my enjoyment of The Grammy-Award Winning 1999 Hit Smooth By Santana Feat. Rob Thomas of Matchbox Twenty Off The Multi-Platinum Album Supernatural

I've noticed this thing with many boomers who are generally/generically progressive is do not get them started on Trans issues or pronouns.

― an icon of a worried-looking, long-haired, bespectacled man (C. Grisso/McCain), Thursday, 24 August 2023 22:32 (yesterday) link

makes me glad Jerry Garcia isn't around because i always have this fear he would've said some stupid shit like this as well.

otm

ALL of them will say stupid shit if you ask them!

i dunno, i say stupid shit too. not in front of a packed concert crowd though. if i were rich i would shut up so hard!

yah idk. Garcia didn't really volunteer a lot of opinions. Weir does interviews all the time, I think he's like 80, he doesn't pull this shit.

true, neither does Fogerty, Neil, etc

or Dylan, Joni, Mick or Keith (afaik...)

#notallboomers

Also possible to be progressive on these issues and still a Boomer, for ex Deborah Harry and Chris Stein of Blondie (Harry being older than Santana or Alice Cooper).

I think Neil Young learned his lesson after coming out for Reagan in the early 80s.

xp or vocally hostile to trans folks and not a Boomer (like several prominent names that immediately come to mind)

santana's a boomer but none of the others are

I know but the term Boomer is regularly used as a catchall when generalizing about older ppl (including on here) and without slicing & dicing exactly when they were born in relation to 1946 (so I take the term in that spirit).

i am also a boomer and i appreciate a more meticulous precision (including on here)

Well that's certainly fair (I'd prefer fewer age-based generalizations at all...)

yoo no boomah yoo a sinkah

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8pRL2ot2J58/UmjlfwfGFFI/AAAAAAAAOd8/do0NRAr-hmY/s1600/both.gif

okay sorry i don't want to be anti-boomer in honor of my good friend sang froid he doesn't like it when i boomerbait. i think lots of people say dumb stuff about sex and gender all the time. no age is immune really. its a hard subject for a lot of people to wrap their heads around. especially if they grew up with religion. it can be hard for me! but i keep reading and learning and i talk to my kids about it all the time because they are experts. and i read the ilx.

and jesus yeah i just can't imagine saying the shit that carlos said. in public. to people! so damaging. just let people enjoy the show, stupido!

The one time I saw Santana in concert, in 1988, I feel like they only played two or three songs that even had vocals. The rest of the time they shut the fuck up and jammed. He should go back to that.

Yeah it's (not)funny this week at least three big terfy bs bombs from music icons (iswis) but all offered up in v different ways (Roisin on social media somewhat uncoaxed, Alice Cooper in an interview response where he just started digging a hole out of practically nothing and Santana on stage).

look i have no interest in trying to defend any boomers out there that will probably end up disappointing me far too soon, but i was heartened to see Dead & Co. including trans flags and imagery in some of their screen projections over the past two summers. small beans, to be sure, but given what we heard from Santana and Cooper this week, i'll take some small solace in knowing there are other boomers that aren't terrible.

or Dylan, Joni, Mick or Keith (afaik...)

― ROSE, W. AXL UNITED STATES INDIVIDUAL (morrisp)

roger waters supports trans rights but he also supports putin so, uh.

to me boomer is a state of mind, maaaaan. i've known boomers who were like 20, you'd tell a joke and they'd say "i don't get it" like you were supposed to explain it to them. that's peak boomer imo!

That's just people, IMO

(I don't think it's great to use a generation name as a put-down, but this is probably a discussion for a different place)

if he had choked on his own vomit and died when he was 30 we would all have santana tattoos. well, i wouldn't but more people would. you gotta think of these things when you are young. remembering to die that is.

"When Jim Morrison died, his record sales just took a dramatic rise! Now conversely Peter Frampton, by NOT dying..." (sketch begins at 10:00)

look i have no interest in trying to defend any boomers out there that will probably end up disappointing me far too soon, but i was heartened to see Dead & Co. including trans flags and imagery in some of their screen projections over the past two summers. small beans, to be sure, but given what we heard from Santana and Cooper this week, i'll take some small solace in knowing there are other boomers that aren't terrible.

― Maxmillion D. Boosted (jon /via/ chi 2.0)

ok fwiw some celebrity who doesn't really have a stake in things either way coming out publicly in support of trans people means way more to me than someone coming out publicly in opposition to trans people. i'm not sure why i feel that way. maybe it's like... i feel like the threat to trans people comes from institutions of power. i mean what am i gonna say, oh shit carlos santana has spoken, i guess that settles The Trans Debate, time for me to detransition, hey carlos wanna help me sew this thing back on?

whereas support of trans people... i see that as an act of solidarity, of people power, though if the person supporting trans rights is also supporting vladimir putin i might perhaps have less than full confidence as to the depth of their commitment.

i also do think that i see trans rights as being a fundamentally feminist issue... men don't face threats to their bodily autonomy the way cis women and all trans people do. the opinions of radicals and feminists mean more to me than the opinions of cis dudes, no matter how much they supported radical politics in the 70s (i don't have any reason to believe that santana's support of angela davis _wasn't_ genuine).

of the three, the ones i think is the... most disappointing is roisin, even though i honestly have no fucking clue who she is. women's rights and trans rights are inextricably linked, imo.

i also do think that i see trans rights as being a fundamentally feminist issue... me

interestingly enough, someone in the Dead camp seems to think along these lines. i saw them live on June 24, 2022, the same day as the Roe decision and they opened with "Man Smart, Woman Smarter" (i know, a terrible song) with a lot of imagery of pro-choice protests, the women's march and, iirc, that's the song where they started incorporating the trans flag as well.

in honor of my good friend sang froid he doesn't like it when i boomerbait

thanks scott!! (as i stare down 65 which happens at the stroke of midnight.) yeah, i dunno. i think people can even say what santana said and still be good, decent, moral people. not everybody gets it at the same time. i find the kneejerk invective harder to deal with than what he said. being an old person i sort of preferred old liberalism where commonalities were emphasized. like putting down "human" for race, har har. now it's all about differences, which i'm not sure is a turn for the better. tear down the fences. maaaan.

whoops i can't even do italics right at my advanced age.

or Dylan, Joni, Mick or Keith (afaik...)

Joni “I went to Halloween party in blackface and then put it on an album cover” Mitchell? That Joni?

And then did a whole interview babbling about how she really felt like a Black man and started shucking and jiving Joni? Do you mean her?

lmao

Re; Alice Cooper, is that really a surprise? Guy was a thoroughly conservative Republican even before the '80s happened. He was always a George W. Bush supporter and blasted Springsteen, R.E.M., Fogerty, Mellencamp, Raitt, etc for openly opposing him, claiming that was treasonous and even (get this) a betrayal of rock n' roll. There's like a dozen and a half classic Alice Cooper cuts from the early '70s that I'll always love, but the guy himself has always been a complete tool.

OTM. Guy is classic white-knuckle cleaned-up addict who saw the light and is now just kind of a hater.

It's sad because I used to see him on e.g. Room 101, Never Mind on the Buzzcocks, probably other panel show type things here in the UK and always thought he was affable and quite charming as a person (unlike, say, Zappa or Rundgren or other oddball peers of his). Ah well.

Yeah, I've said this before, but he created a great character in the '60s called Alice Cooper, but it's as if ever since Alice's success he's been trying to backtrack and diminish everything Alice ever stood for.

And he's an extreme Christian and that colors EVERYTHING

He took the name from an accused witch, iirc.

xp Oh yeah. It's like a fungus.

Doesn't sarahell or somebody else have a whole thing about male bands names after women? Alice likely one of the first

thanks scott!! (as i stare down 65 which happens at the stroke of midnight.) yeah, i dunno. i think people can even say what santana said and still be good, decent, moral people. not everybody gets it at the same time. i find the kneejerk invective harder to deal with than what he said. being an old person i sort of preferred old liberalism where commonalities were emphasized. like putting down "human" for race, har har. now it's all about differences, which i'm not sure is a turn for the better. tear down the fences. maaaan.

― Thus Sang Freud

i think focusing on commonalities is good... we all have a lot in common for sure... me, i feel like i don't have that much different from a lot of the old hippies... i grew up listening to a lot of that kind of music, sometimes it's about getting together but sometimes it's about tuning in, turning on, and dropping out, about finding your own road in life... i'm 47 years old and at 43 i found that the world had changed, that what was possible for me had changed, and i took a different path in life. lost my wife, lost my home, lost my community, but i found myself... now if a hippie can't relate to that, well, i don't know what to say.

people call us names because of how we dress, the way we wear our hair... back in the day people used to make fun of the hippies, ask them "are you a boy or are you a girl?"... i feel like folks who grew up in that generation, playing the fillmore or whatever, got reason to understand what it feels like to be on the outside.

tear down the fences? sure... tear down the wall, motherfucker, like the airplane said back in the day... but a lot of kids today, they got walls blocking keeping them out, people spit on them, call them names, because they dress how they want, live how they want, and it's their trip, man, it's their trip, and i don't get being down on their trip. santana or alice cooper or whoever comes out after these trans kids, they're not tearing down any walls, they're building them.

he later said: “I am sorry for my insensitive comments. They don’t reflect that I want to honor and respect all person’s (sic) ideals and beliefs. I realize that what I said hurt people and that was not my intent. I sincerely apologize to the transgender community and everyone I offended,” his statement continued.

people are people and they make mistakes.

that's even a decent apology -- people these days tend to say i'm sorry *if* i offended you, which isn't really an apology.

you gotta change your evil ways, baby

When Santana was less bigoted!

“You read me wrong, my hating was not coming from a place of hate. Au contraire, Pierre!”

people can be conflicted about this -- it is totally understandable. calling them haters and bigots is *one* way of resolving their conflict.

people can be conflicted about this -- it is totally understandable. calling them haters and bigots is *one* way of resolving their conflict.

― Thus Sang Freud

well that's the thing, right? there are a lot of people out there who think that saying trans women are men _isn't_ hatred and bigotry, that there's this whole "transgender debate". and to me, that's where the real problem comes from...

see, most people don't know this, but trans people are facing a lot of bigotry and prejudice, it's really hard for trans folks right now. i know this because i'm trans myself, but most people don't know, and when they find out how bad it is they're pretty horrified by how bad what trans people are going through actually is. it's really frustrating, i wish there were more media outlets telling people what it's really like instead of pushing this "transgender debate" stuff.

one of the reasons i don't really have anything against santana for saying what he said is because i don't think he even knew that what he said was bigoted and hateful. i mean when people say bigoted and hateful things they're still responsible for the consequences of that, like people thinking they're haters and bigots, but to me, the problem isn't santana saying bigoted things, it's people not even _knowing_ that saying stuff like that is not just bigoted and hateful.

it's pretty frustrating... i've been seeing this go on for years and years now, and it just keeps getting worse and worse. and on top of that the people who really hate us - and there aren't that many of them, really - they say the same stuff as the people who just don't know. which sucks because most people asking those questions, they _don't_ know, but it's hard, sometimes, to not fall into that invective, because we've all heard those questions asked so many times by people who are just pretending, who are just looking for an excuse to hurt us.

it's not your fault if you don't know, but at the same time, you need to know what's going on here, everyone needs to know what's really going on here, for our sake and yours.

you're very forgiving and I'm not sure how the problem has now become people being too mean/hasty/judgmental towards the santanas of this world but I don't like it at all

how is being this christian about it really working right now?

i'm forgiving because i can be... it's a form of privilege i have. you're not in a position to do that... other people may expect you to be forgiving but i don't think that's a fair burden to put on you. i wrote a long thing in the roisin murphy thread that kind of goes into how i look at things... doesn't mean i'm right or anything, just how i look at things. your take carries just as much weight as mine imo.

I agree with everything in your other post and you have a much better handle on the UK situation than most (non-terf) UK progressives

I am doubtful about the claim that being this nice - or having to be this nice - is a product of privilege though

the main reason I'm doubtful is that I've seen the nicest people ever turn the other cheek towards their abusers over and over and it looks more like a survival strategy (not necessarily a healthy or successful or sustainable one) than a luxury to me

and given as you noted how much of a generational marker this has become in britain the dynamics of familial abuse are central to this movement and how it operates

Alice Cooper and the assholes from Aerosmith have been open about being Republicans for many years. They’re really in the same camp as Ted Nugent

I agree with everything in your other post and you have a much better handle on the UK situation than most (non-terf) UK progressives

I am doubtful about the claim that being this nice - or having to be this nice - is a product of privilege though

― your original display name is still visible (Left)

i don't have to post in as kind and conciliatory manner as i have tried to do in responding to thus sang froid! i made a conscious decision to do so. i'm in a position to assume good faith! that's where the privilege comes in. in the uk, quite honestly, i don't think i could do that. in the uk, i think that the most effective means y'all have to oppose entrenched transphobia is through radical direct action, stuff that draws from things like Zaps, ACT UP, that part of queer history.

for most of my life, for decades, my life was about survival. that's the most important thing, being trans, you have to survive, you have to keep yourself safe, by any means necessary. that's still the situation for most trans people today. that's another way the privilege manifests itself. transphobia affects all of us, is a threat to all of us, but it doesn't present an imminent threat to me. i can focus on other things.

i do _need_ allies, we all _need_ allies, and i guess not having to seek out allies is a privilege i don't have, but goddamn, i like the work. i really fucking enjoy doing it. i wish i could do this kind of thing full time, do outreach full time, instead of running these stupid useless reports at the bullshit job i'm paid to do. i fucking love this. i love talking to other people about my life, about my experiences. my career goal is to one day get to be gay for pay.

wait. what. there's another meaning to that term?

as far as being "christian", i consider this to be a very serious allegation. :) in my defense i would like to point out that immediately upon waking up yesterday, i posted "hail satan. baphomet is goals." to ilx... i would like to give you my personal assurance that i have not been born again since that time!

having to choose between satan and jesus is just another cis imposition as far as i'm concerned

more seriously thank you forever for being you and doing what you do - in this bubble it can be too easy to forget that being trans is actually possible in practice and having living examples to the contrary is so so important right now

awwww, my pleasure... seriously, that i am a positive role model to so many people just by, like, existing has been consistently pretty mind-blowing and awesome.