Pretenders: Classic or Dud?

Classic up through Learning to Crawl, mediocre through the lean years of Get Close, Packed, Isle of View and Last of the Independents, and slightly recharged with Viva el Amor and Loose Screw.

Never dud, though. Never.

S/D: Pretenders
POX - Pretenders?

Chrissie Hynde's hair hanging over narrowed eyes look, cruelly tensed mouth, and overall rock chick look - Dud. Send in Trinny & Susannah.

Whatabout Siouxsie? The Plasmatics?

And yet - listen to those early 45s in a row, and how lightly they seem to demolish obstacles, breeze past any doubts. Pastiche is a big element - the bass-strings guitar riffs of 'Kid' feel like George Harrison or the axeman of any neat beat group; it's meta-pop, intelligence is at work somewhere, hard to pin down. But instinct too, the sound they found and didn't muck about with too much, at least at the start, and the grace of how it moves.

TS: the exhilarating key-change burst into the solo of 'Kid' vs the exhilarating same-key, same-melody burst into the solo of 'Don't Get Me Wrong'.

On the taking sides, I'm a sap--"Don't Get Me Wrong"

"Whatabout Siouxsie? The Plasmatics?"

The Pretenders were about before The Plasmatics, weren't they?

In any case, what about Big Brother & The Holding Company (Janis Joplin), Jefferson Airplane (Grace Slick)...?

Pretenders? First album was classic, most of the singles were pretty good and (on the handful of occasions I saw them at least) they were always pretty good live.

'Private Life', 'Millionaires', 'Downtown (Akron)'. 'Criminal' is a good song. I like the tremolo on 'Never Do That'.

There is one song that's a lot like the Banshees! It's on the 45s compilation.

Great line: '2000 miles / ... it's very far!'

love the pretenders, scott's description upthread of the first album as 'exhiliarating' applies to much of their stuff for me.

"Now I see you/All impressed and half undressed/ You got paint stick/ All over the scars and lumps and bumps/ Tattooed love boys/ Have got you where I used to lay/ Well ha ha, too bad/ But you know what they say/ Stop snivelin', you're gonna make some plastic surgeon a rich man/ Oh, but the prestige and the glory/ Another human interest story/ You are that."

Two total classics.

I always thought it was "The beggars just come with the scenery.." ya know, 3rd world .. beggars... I guess I gotta look it up now.

I still like The Pretenders (who played the first and ONLY stadium-sized concert I've ever attended, Detroit's Joe Louis Arena '87, and Chrissie was totally outgoing and charismatic and made an "I'm-not-worthy" wisecrack about sharing the stage with Iggy Pop, who was the opening act, and the main reason I attended) and I still like "Middle Of The Road", but now it leaves a bit of a bad aftertaste, so tell me: Am I misunderstanding or overreacting? And why should it only now bother me 20 years after the fact?

Comments?

are any of their post get close albums worth the time beyond the singles? I remember not liking Packed that much when it came out, and then I don't think I bought anything else. I did get hooked on the VH1Classics Pretenders marathon hour a few weekends ago.

Ray Davies and Chrissie Hynde are a power-mullet couple if I've ever seen one.

I never thought of that lyric as complaining about a fan. I guess you could take it that way if you look at it as a specific piece of autobiography, but "I can't get from the car to the curb without some little jerk on my back" seems a pretty universal sentiment somewhat hyperbolically stated.

i made another pretenders thread somewhere, i like them (her?) a whole lot.

indeed!

scott seward, I love you.

saw them opening for the Who about a year and a half ago. their set was full of surprises: they opened with "the wait" and closed with "precious"; the shitty songs ("i'll stand by you") somehow worked; and hynde's voice has not changed one iota since 1980. so many bands have to play songs in different keys to accommodate the singer's time-ravaged voice. the pretenders had to make no such adjustments.

Love the first record.

packed! is quite a good little album, readily available at any used CD store.

They remind me of The Police, in that they were a bunch of lags who'd been around the fringes of the British music scene forever, and then were roped together to back up a hit-sniffing singer/songwriter on a major label.

Which is not to say they weren't an excellent band, as they obviously were - at least for the first LP.

They were very good to excellent on a couple of other albums too.

did nick lowe produce "kid"? it uses the same latin-by-way-of-brill-building syncopation as his "cruel to be kind"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyKp0iia6MM

not an altogether terrible video. young chrissie hynde looks like parker posey here.

'kid' is a chris thomas production

aha.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko5czpuRnQw

for some reason i cannot begin to explain, watching this video makes me nostalgic for a time when the record industry was making shitloads of money off songs like this

i like the way hynde uses her limited voice. she unapologetically goes flat all over the place, but anticipates and modulates it to sound desirable and cool.

"Kid" = one of my favorite guitar solos of all timez.

for some reason i cannot begin to explain, watching this video makes me nostalgic for a time when the record industry was making shitloads of money off songs like this

yeah - I think there's a real nice mix of chaos & incredible optimism in the now-hilarious concept of guys with enough money and power to make some happen putting the Pretenders on their high-priority list -altho the song itself is aiming squarely at the "nostalgia" button from note one, aggressively, so there's that, too.

Simpler times.

I'm finding it difficult to accept the notion that Hynde has a limited voice.

Alfred she sings flat about half the time. It's a charming flat, but it's flat.

total classic, the first album is awesome

I didn't like them at the time (but I never hate them), for music-as-identity reasons (they were too mainstream for me), but now I think some of these songs are great. I still find the songs a bit depressing, like a lot of popular music from the time, for reminding me of the idealized high school years I definitely did not experience. (Never be born to a Christian clergyman.)

this is the coolest thing on youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LO265eITJ0

her flatness works because it's hipster flat, downtown flat, by way of lou reed/patti smith/etc. she's too cool to hit those notes. ric ocasek pulled the same trick, obviously. really a lot of american new-wave singing drew on that kind of self-conscious remove. the good ones (and i definitely count chrissie as a good one) made it work by always letting you hear the vulnerability under the pose.

that "Brass in Pocket" vid is great ... love Chrissie taking a drag of her cig midway through

how effin awesome is this tho:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeTsSD18BBc

I will never not be a fan.

Break Up the Concrete was pretty good, if anyone but me cares anymore. Search: the title song ("Cuban Slide" beat plus her best bit of vocal nonsense since "Brrrrr, nyyowww!") and "Boots of Chinese Plastic":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDZrzd4yA-8

Joining the lovefest. Dig the rhythm section.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq7TyAjje0Y

the first album is brilliant... criminally underrated. RIP JHS

It's in my top ten; it's the rest of their catalog through 1999 that's criminally underrated.

given how the first album has been treated in '80s album polls on ilx (and elsewhere), i'm considering the U-word increasingly justifiable

xpost

yes! Packed is the only one from the Pretenders-->Viva el Amor run that has never clicked with me after two decades of fandom.

Curious about turnout now, abysmal then:

Best Pretenders Album

Damn, I would've thrown Get Close a vote. Feels like the time is right for someone to cover "Don't Get Me Wrong".

I mean, some country artist should do it.

Packed! has one of my favorite Hynde tracks, though...a co-write with Johnny Marr called "When Will I See You".

xpost

don't give Sugarland any ideas.

I went with Singles as well (although I wish it would've come out one album later so that "When Will I See You?" could've been included.

― Johnny Fever, Wednesday, May 30, 2007 4:19 PM (5 years ago)

I'm as timeless as the sun, moon and stars.

Packed also boasts "Let's Make a Pact" and "Sense of Purpose," the latter of which got a lot of airplay down here when she covered it for Isle of View.

I really wish I could have seen what happened with the Pretenders had Honeyman-Scott and Farndon not died - they are a 'classic line up' sort of band, and it's not fair really but I do think of Pretenders after about 1982 as the Chrissie Hynde show (selling Chambers short as well I know)

They do have great songs throughout those years though

"Sense of Purpose" def my fav Packed song, but that might have a lot to do with my falling for the Isle of View version before I had ever even heard that album.

First three albums are all classic. Back on the Chain Gang, Kid, English Roses, Lovers of Today, I go to Sleep, Jealous Dogs and Mystery Achievement are just incredible songs. I haven't ever heard Packed, might give it a go.

Other than Packed, I'd argue that the 90s Pretenders were quite underrated. Last of the Independents and Viva el Amor are both solid, and Isle of View is the very rare live album that I'd count as being almost every bit as essential as a band's studio records.

"Night In My Veins" def one of my fav singles

^^ the single that led to my investigating them. It's still sexy as fuck ("he's got me up against the back of a pickup truck").

Last of the Independents and VEA got terrific reviews at the time but have now faded -- a pity, cuz their only real dud is Get Close, which despite splendid Hynde vocals sounds like ace eighties producers doctoring crass songwriting.

I gotta check out the other albums. "Dance" is the only straight dud on Get Close, imo, so awful. Love their cover of "room full of mirrors". I sort of agree with you, Alfred, in that the production outshines the songs for the most part.

hmm what about "How Much Did You Get For Your Soul"?

Listening to "The Phone Call" off the first Pretenders record now it always sounds like a lost 90s album track by the Pixies with the garbled vocals and that dark lurching 7/8 guitar riff.

I am generally in favour of Get Close, but not of "How Much Did You Get For Your Soul" (their worst 80s track?)

GC keepers: the one-two punch of "Chill Factor" and "Hymn to Her" (two of her best vocals), "My Baby," and a B-side titled "World Within Worlds."

Remember her second-tier Bond theme?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUgy7fpUR2A

and, yes, "Don't Get Me Wrong"

"Tattooed Love Boys" is tight as hell. Running a 7/8 (I think?) over that Motown beat is a total virtuoso punk move -- punk because it makes it seem even faster, virtuoso for being able to count it. They were a hot band.

one of the coolest sounding records, ever

A top ten record for me.

Damn, I would've thrown Get Close a vote. Feels like the time is right for someone to cover "Don't Get Me Wrong".

― brimstead, Wednesday, 3 April 2013 22:17 (7 months ago) Permalink

so is this gonna happen soon or what?

Get Close is a triumph of voice and personality. On her worst imperial phase record, Hynde gives the performance of her life. "Chill Factor" kills me: a peak of her talk-singing. She doesn't go soft, hugging the organ and stressing unexpected syllables.

Unusual (but lovely) Chrissie vocal on this cover of Tim Buckley's "Morning Glory"; it's kinda Joan Baez down an octave or so:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWAKX_mmHNk

On a more upbeat tip, "Break Up the Concrete":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TfF9I3-zJ0

Oh wow, Chrissie has a solo record out this week.

Saw a video of the song "House of Cards," featuring Chrissie and a band. Eh, it was ok.

The album, entitled Stockholm will feature notable guests such as Neil Young, Björn Yttling of swedish indie pop band Peter Bjorn and John, and even fretwork from tennis legend John McEnroe.

Stockholm will be the follow up to the Pretenders 2008 album Break Up The Concrete

only a 5.8 from Pitchfork and review includes this :

In Stockholm’s press materials, Hynde says, “I wanted to make a power pop album you could dance to—Abba meets John Lennon.” It’s frustrating that the results don't match the aims; here, she’s made a mostly fine, overly polished adult contemporary record that feels oddly generic, especially coming from her.

the writer likes the closing track though

I just listened to it as well and, well, I liked the closing track too.

Didn't mean that to sound like a diss. The record sounds fine but hardly extraordinary. The closing track was the first (and last, I guess) time I stopped paying attention to whatever else I was doing long enough to just listen to it.

OK, this I'd actually read:

http://www.avclub.com/article/chrissie-hynde-writing-tell-all-book-her-own-216080

Dr. Rumak • 20 hours ago

How do we trust that anything in this book is real, since she's already admitted to being a Pretender?

She's lived a heck of a life.

She made these remarks. I'm not surprised.

I suppose that I feel charitable and defensive enough of Chrissie as a person to get on board with these remarks (cited in the linked article):

"People criticising Chrissie Hynde for her comments are overlooking that she is a victim and this is self blame. I feel v sorry for her tbh", tweeted Stephanie.

While the Guardian's Hadley Freeman echoed her thoughts: "Many people seem furious with Chrissie Hynde, and I get why, but I feel pity for her. Imagine blaming y/self for sthg so awful for so long."

yeah i saw people calling her some pretty nasty things today and it's like hmmmm is that really the right response here.

no idea what alfred's remark is supposed to mean.

i.e. I'm not surprised that Hynde, who despite her punk roots draws from a traditional well of rock and roll discourse about men and women, would make those remarks.

Yeah, I think she's coming from a very different place than most contemporary music criticism when it comes to gender discourse

http://www.pretenders.org/adviceto.gif

#10 OTM

New album "Alone" coming out that is produced by Dan Auerbach of Black Keys in Nashville. Duane Eddy is on one song and some Nashville studio guys are on others, per the press release.

They're gonna tour as the opening act for a Stevie Nicks US arena tour

would love to hear Stevie + Chrissie sing "Back on the Chain Gang" or "Hymn to Her."

That would be nice. November 4th gig in your part of the country.

Been digging into their first four albums (prompted by Alfred tweeting about the debut) and man there is a real steep drop with "Get Close". Understandable given the shifting line-ups and changing times, but man Hynde was really not served well by the late 80s frills of fretless bass, shitty synth pads, etc. Big singles and maybe Chill Factor aside it's a bummer to listen to.

Also just generally struck by how much her phrasing reminds me of Dylan. Those first three albums are an incredible run.

Wikipedia, perhaps appropriately, lists it as both "New Wave" and "soft rock."

I'm not at all baffled by someone not liking it, and I can certainly imagine it shedding some fans of the first three albums at the time, but a few duds aside ("How Much Did You Get For Your Soul" being the yuckiest), I still love it. "My Baby," "Don't Get Me Wrong" and "Hymn To Her" are all great, shimmery pop.

The big singles are wonderful though - Hymn To Her, Don't Get Me Wrong and My Baby are great boomer pop xpost

Her singing and breath control in "Chill Factor" kills me.

I'm usually a defender of expensive '80s albus, but Shakey OTM about the vacuousenss of Get Close.

The first four Pretenders albums are a lot like the proper Clash album discography (minus Give 'Em Enough Rope, which for some reason I never owned until I was older) in that they were so formative for me, and I've lived with them for so long now, that I'm pretty much blind to their flaws.

(don't trust my opinions on 'em, in other words)

I'm usually a defender of expensive '80s albus, but Shakey OTM about the vacuousenss of Get Close.

I just don't think those touches play to her strengths, and they don't reveal anything or challenge her in interesting ways they just feel like half-assed window-dressing. Was kinda surprised to read Alomar was involved tbh, I can't identify his contributions.

you know what I really love on re-listening to these is "Pack it Up"

also can anyone explain why they did a song called "Louie Louie" that is not THE "Louie Louie"? idgi

Don't sleep on packed!. It's got some of her loveliest material ("When Will I See You," "Never Do That," "Let's Make a Pact").

I posted this in the other thread.

"Thumbelina", off Learning To Crawl, sets a bar for female-led Americana that I wish was reached for more.

Hidden gem on Get Close: "Tradition of Love"

I still can't stand her biggest revenue stream.

Chrissie's performance half-saves this song for me. Imagine it in the hands of Celine Dion or some other nuance-adverse bleater and you might see what I mean.

if there were any justice in this fallen world, "show me" would have earned her a billion dollars

the s/t debut is one of the best rock records ever. pretenders II is good. they are CLASSIC
p much everything after the deaths of JHS & PF = DUD

Bar maybe a half dozen or so songs, maybe. Though Hynde remains classic, which kind of keeps the goodwill flowing. Last couple of albums did not even feature Chambers, so wonder why her sole solo album was the only one designated as such.

agreed that Hynde is eternally classic

I'll go as far as the third album and quite enjoy the occasional single after that.

agreed that Hynde is eternally classic

sometime in the last decade she chose a friend's band to open for part of a tour. he told me that when they went in for their first meeting, she said "yeah I had this huge pile of CDs to look through, and you guys were the UGLIEST motherfuckers out of all the bands. I figured that you were in it for the music and not the chicks, so I wanted to check you out."

hahaha

that rules lol

has she written a memoir?

yes, and i read it

It disappointed me. She's such a vivid talker and songwriter and was once a critic that I expected something felicitous.

yeah it was alright, but disappointing

she has some antiquated views about some stuff (and i understand where they come from but they are not sentiments currently in cultural vogue -- she's more caitlin flanagan than people might want her to be), and i don't really identify with her characterization of our hometown, partially because when she lived there was before i was born.
her descriptions of her life in london were pretty interesting, but not dishy.

she's very cool, as you would expect. cool = not into dishing or revealing too much
i don't remember a whole lot about it tbh, not really one of my top memoirs even though as a person she is indeed classic.

"yeah I had this huge pile of CDs to look through, and you guys were the UGLIEST motherfuckers out of all the bands. I figured that you were in it for the music and not the chicks

tbh I'm not really following Hynde's reasoning here

Like, they're clearly in it for the music. Face for radio, etc.

p much everything after the deaths of JHS & PF = DUD

nah, a lot of the 3rd album and get close is great.

The transition from the middle 8 to the verse in Back on the Chain Gang is one of the best things I have ever heard

tbh I'm not really following Hynde's reasoning here

I didn't know until Spotify told me that there's a version of 'Let's get lost' with Neil Tennant. I like it.

I didn't like I'll Stand By You that much, but my dislike of it is based on the fact that it paved the way for Love Can Build A Bridge, the worst thing in the discography of three different artists.

Think Clapton has probably done worse

Pretenders influence can be felt in some newer bands like dum dum girls, alvvays, Laura marling and especially stories from the city

The most enjoyment I've gotten out of Arcade Fire in over a decade:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqFvqYcYD3Y

Stop your sobbing is one of the best approximations of the spirit of doo-wop. Man does that guitarist rip too, lovers of today melts my face off

Classic!

"Birds of Paradise" came up on random shuffle for me today. A minor Pretenders song, sure, but man is it gorgeous.

^ yeah!

Gonna sample brass in pockets intro, down pitch it and loop it into a hip hop beat. Think it would sound dope

Gonna use MAH MAH MAH.

You listed the correct post-80s record.

I'm finding it difficult to accept the notion that Hynde has a limited voice.

― lihaperäpukamat (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, October 24, 2009 8:09 AM (nine years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Alfred she sings flat about half the time. It's a charming flat, but it's flat.

― a full circle lol (J0hn D.), Saturday, October 24, 2009 8:26 AM (nine years ago)

lol someone added this to her wikipedia page:

Artistry
This section needs expansion. You can help by adding to it. (January 2015)
Hynde has a contralto vocal range.[ 50 ] Until 1978, shortly before the advent of The Pretenders, Hynde had little idea what she sounded like.[ 51 ] Attributing her distinctive time signatures to an inability to count, and her distinctive amusia to an inability to hear, she eschews formal voice training saying that, "distinctive voices in rock are trained through years of many things: frustration, fear, loneliness, anger, insecurity, arrogance, narcissism, or just sheer perseverance – anything but a teacher."[ 51 ]

did Hynde and Petty ever cross paths? Was thinking about how they are kinda similar, both part of the last wave of "classic rock", shading into new wave. shag haircuts, idiosyncratic voices, classicists but also p odd.

In which our hero, Chrissie Hynde, kisses Trump's ass in order to encourage him to ... help Julian Assange.

ew! no! what are you talking about?

An open Letter to @realDonaldTrump, President of the United States.

Dear Mr. President,

I often think of how much my father, Melville “Bud” Hynde, who proudly served his country as a Marine on Guadalcanal, would have enjoyed your Presidency. [p1.]

— Chrissie Hynde (@ChrissieHynde) February 17, 2020

Melville "Bud" Hynde would probably have voted for Trump, listened to Rush, bopped to "My City is Gone."

ugh

first pj harvey now CH

assange sucks

what did PJ do?!?! my god
what is happening

Assange is a cause celebre. Kissing Trump's ass is a different thing (even if Hynde is clever for recognizing how President Mike Teavee works.)

You may be right.

more like kissy hind amirite

Oh in 2017 PJ participated in pro Assange event

https://consequenceofsound.net/2017/04/patti-smith-pj-harvey-brian-eno-participated-in-free-julian-assange-conference/

eh that's stupid but whatever
kissing trump's ass in any way is the offense

lol kissy hinde

Has plenty of potential for this thread: Band names that are parodies of other bands' names.

But certainly not for this one: Worst band/musician with a name that is pun based on other bands/musicians

Kiss B. Hynde

Still haven't gotten around to the new album yet, but this, from her ongoing "Dylan Lockdown Series", is lovely:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBUhaj76B_U

It didn't need the last shot, but I found that video unexpectedly moving. Beautiful cover too.

Anyone else heard the Dylan covers album that Chrissie put out today? Kudos to her for selecting some less obvious song choices, I guess, but I don't know if she always went with his strongest material (two songs each from Shot of Love and Infidels!). At the very least, I am grateful to finally have a version of that "Love Minus Zero/No Limit" cover that I liked so much from last year on record.

yeah wow that seems like a natural for her to cover!

I would have loved to hear her salvage "Caribbean Wind." The one on Biograph sucks but on the old bootlegged outtake (which wasn't included on Trouble No More), it sounded like Dylan's phrasing could have been inspired by Chrissie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=audUHTtPi1I

The awkward arrangement needs to be re-done, but I could see the original Pretenders fixing this and making something great out of it.

Greil loves the "Blind Willie McTell" cover (and really hates Dylan's Infidels FWIW).

Anyone read/have anything to say about this?: https://utpress.utexas.edu/books/adam-sobsey-chrissie-hynde

Excerpt from a recorded 1981 phone interview with James Honeyman-Scott

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-blEXEO4qSY

played the 7th street entry (capacity 250) in mpls last night and apparently everyone was blown away

Happy birthday, girl. One of my favorites:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9T0_MZEVCE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeWVAj0akkU

New Pitchfork Sunday Review of Learning to Crawl is a good read: https://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/the-pretenders-learning-to-crawl/

That's a pretty good encapsulation of Hynde and album alike.

September 23 was always the biggest birthday among music legends to me as it's shared by Ray Charles, John Coltrane and Bruce Springsteen, but I didn't realize today was pretty impressive as well: Chrissie Hynde turns 74, Sonny Rollins turns 95, and Buddy Holly would've been 89. (Crazy to think Buddy could feasibly be alive today if he hadn't taken that plane.)

So many talented Virgo babies!!