SHISTY - "I Luv U"

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it's the dizzee rascal answer record!

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 26 June 2003 15:20 (twenty-two years ago)

the garage rap "no pigeons"!

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 26 June 2003 15:20 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm not sure if a.) it's the girl from the original "i luv u" or b.) it's actually any good, but this record is hella exciting to me for some reason this morning

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 26 June 2003 15:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Same beat/music?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 26 June 2003 15:34 (twenty-two years ago)

mm hmm

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 26 June 2003 15:36 (twenty-two years ago)

I be intrigued.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 26 June 2003 16:03 (twenty-two years ago)

D to the itto

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 26 June 2003 16:05 (twenty-two years ago)

it's on slsk

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 26 June 2003 16:06 (twenty-two years ago)

is it good

― robin (robin), Friday, 27 June 2003 00:06 (twenty-two years ago)

yes

― nick.K (nick.K), Friday, 27 June 2003 15:35 (twenty-two years ago)

shystie has done stuff w/entice & from what limited amount i know of her rap style--which is generally on the faster, cutting staccato and high-toned side--she's def. not the lady on the original. She's kinda young and had some maje labes in her grille in britain earlier this year and apparently she's worked w/mike skinner?, but don't know who she signed with. if you're still operating within the vinyl idiom, you can order the white label of this from puregroove.

― truant (truant), Sunday, 29 June 2003 09:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes. It good.

Shisty will make the word 'prat' hip.

― jadrenos (jadrenos), Sunday, 29 June 2003 09:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Lady on the original was a girl from Dizzee's neighbourhood called Janene or sumting. I don't think she's releasing singles.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Monday, 30 June 2003 00:07 (twenty-two years ago)

it is good and its quite mad how they've got a new girl and guy with mostly completely new lyrics over the same track but using the same hey hooks and patterns from the original vocal...this isn't even that common in hip hop or dancehall is it? i mean doing it in the same way as this cover version/karaoke/remix/response style does it.

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 30 June 2003 02:08 (twenty-two years ago)

see: debreca - 21 questions

― minna (minna), Monday, 30 June 2003 03:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Haven't heard this yet Steve but what you describe doesn't sound that different from Lady Saw's "Son of a Bitch" (her brilliant answer record to Shaggy's "It Wasn't Me").

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Monday, 30 June 2003 05:59 (twenty-two years ago)

the lyrics on Shisty are arguably as good as the ones on the Dizzee track and its arguably as strong a record, thats the exciting thing.

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 30 June 2003 11:48 (twenty-two years ago)

better quality mp3, smaller in size than the one on soulseek

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 30 June 2003 17:33 (twenty-two years ago)

she's not the girl from I Luv U...

check for her as part of a female MC feature in the new issue of Deuce magazine.

― martin (martin), Monday, 30 June 2003 20:25 (twenty-two years ago)

two weeks pass...

er....it srruck me that shisty isnt really that good.
although i like the men in the answer bit, laughing.

― ambrose (ambrose), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 08:16 (twenty-two years ago)

this record still makes me very happy.

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 08:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Shisty sounds fine - but the men's voices almost rival the girl from the Dizzee track for excellence

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 10:31 (twenty-two years ago)

dunno, i just think she sounds a bit crpa, and kinda...clumsy.
on a totally different note, it sounds like shes asian; dont know why i think this but...are there any asian mcs in garage that are getting any props/being played on pirates?

― ambrose (ambrose), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 10:37 (twenty-two years ago)

pff, dizzie's original was more feminist. by the by ambrose is right, she clatters all over the beat but it coulda still been good

― Chip Morningstar (bob), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 11:34 (twenty-two years ago)

like what is she answering anyway?

― Chip Morningstar (bob), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 11:37 (twenty-two years ago)

this record is a real dud...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 11:38 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah it's not feminist enough for my tastes

― sean g, Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:05 (twenty-two years ago)

fucking english

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:10 (twenty-two years ago)

come on lets slap their sunburnt shoulders

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:16 (twenty-two years ago)

let's argue about how feminist their hip-hop is

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:17 (twenty-two years ago)

it's not hip hop... you americans miss the point at every turn w/ this stuff...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:24 (twenty-two years ago)

been reading too many dizzee interviews I guess (or paying attention to his wardrobe)

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:28 (twenty-two years ago)

it's feminist emo

― sean g, Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:28 (twenty-two years ago)

...(or listening to the music)(or watching the videos)(or reading daft comparisons to tupac)...

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:29 (twenty-two years ago)

whats your problem with Shisty then Dave?

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:29 (twenty-two years ago)

his problem = it's not dizzee rascal?

― sean g, Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:30 (twenty-two years ago)

i just think it's a duff record - the mcing grates on me something rotten

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Dave that "it's not hiphop" line is ridiculous

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:39 (twenty-two years ago)

how is it ridiculous?

― sean g, Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:45 (twenty-two years ago)

IT IS NOT HIP HOP
what's more i have been involved with this music for a v long time and can catergorically say it is not. if you say it is, then you leave the door open for someone else to say it's techno, which it plainly isn't either.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:45 (twenty-two years ago)

next someone will say it's pop music

― sean g, Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:46 (twenty-two years ago)

i think the problem is that a lot of people have heard dizzee rascal in isolation from the rest of the garage/grime scene and lump, in the same way indie kids would call the streets garage

― sean g, Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:48 (twenty-two years ago)

exactly, americans particularly...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:51 (twenty-two years ago)

haah - so comparison's between this and the roxanne sagas is apples and oranges?

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:52 (twenty-two years ago)

meanwhile, one of you should really tell dizzee he ain't making hip-hop before he does another interview

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:53 (twenty-two years ago)

actually i quite like listening to it in a sort of masochistic way, but mainly just for that laugh.

― ambrose (ambrose), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:01 (twenty-two years ago)

"if we say it's this or that, then that settles it"

Awesome! Hey you guys: The White Stripes are gabba

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Jesse Colin Young is NYHC

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:03 (twenty-two years ago)

i reckon americans might well believe that last statement john...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:03 (twenty-two years ago)

But in your original post you were pretty much doing the same thing bludd

― sean g, Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:04 (twenty-two years ago)

the point being Dave that Dizzee may be a new direction in hiphop or a new mixture of elements but it's still hiphop, and saying so doesn't justify your hauling out the tired old "Americans will never understand!" bit

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:05 (twenty-two years ago)

haha - "Americans will never understand our version of their music!"

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:07 (twenty-two years ago)

the thing is i haven't heard an argument for it being hip hop apart from "he wears american clothes" and "he raps".

― sean g, Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:07 (twenty-two years ago)

"Those yanks! They wouldn't know hiphop if it came 'round for tea!"

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:08 (twenty-two years ago)

hiphop and roxanne comparisons are valid but useless. unless you have a uh, personal interest in asserting US primacy over everything? otherwise like sterling said: you are dragging. everything. down

yeah sean you are so fucking REAL nigga! suck a dick, toy. obv feminism is not my #1 criteria in liking records but this is an answer record, a reinterpretation and ok 'feminism' is a huge maybe misleading reduction of what shisty's doing but i just dont think this enlightens dizzie's complicit angry original any further. as an 'isolated' track like dave sez i think it's a A BIT DUFF. ok!

― Chip Morningstar (bob), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:10 (twenty-two years ago)

one d in 'bludd', blud

― Chip Morningstar (bob), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Sean does one really have to make the case for thirty trumpets, ten cornets, ten trombones and three tubas being a brass band? Dizzee's rapping over beats, that they're skittery beats doesn't make it So Completely Revolutionary That We Cannot Call It Hiphop! Hiphop's a HUGE culture, room for all manner of stuff. I think the issue is that English Diz fans would prefer to think of him of wholly "ours" and not part of an essentially American tradition.

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:11 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean, I'm not saying uk gutter grime guh-guh-garage garridge gay-raj is "just hip-hop": I agree it's 'something new/something exciting', I'm partially convinced it's the 'something new/something exciting' (I'd blame jess and simon r., but really I blame dem lott and whoever I've downloaded garage comps off of soulseek from)(er, spencer then), but to pretend it isn't, in any way whatsoever, nuh-uh. nuh. uh., no siree bob england's hip-hop is absurd.

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:12 (twenty-two years ago)

What Blount said.

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:13 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean, I love american hip-hop (love african hip-hop, which sounds alot more different than american hip-hop to my ears than garage)(hit or miss on italian hip-hop), but one of the thing's that draws me to uk garage, and didn't draw me to, er, earlier english hip-hop (ie. betty boo) is that it is it's own thing, isn't "just" hip-hop made by english people. it's something new, but let's not refuse to connect dots for the sake of her majesty the queen.

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:15 (twenty-two years ago)

"Dizzee's rapping over beats, that they're skittery beats doesn't make it So Completely Revolutionary That We Cannot Call It Hiphop"

mc top buzz is hip hop?

sizzla?

what is 'rapping'?

― ambrose (ambrose), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:18 (twenty-two years ago)

and agreed this record doesn't touch the original (answer records either fall way short or blow the original away - not alot of middle ground), but I'm such a huge fan of answer records (I put "Shorty Swings Both Ways" on a "whose ten is this?") that this record was spotted many points before I even heard the thing.

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:20 (twenty-two years ago)

what are beats?
what is music?
what is sound?

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean if someone release a record called "Right Hurr" right now I can guarantee you I'd download it stat

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:21 (twenty-two years ago)

all dancehall/garage/hardcore = hip hop ambrose coz america = fount of all musical innovation donchaknow...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:27 (twenty-two years ago)

right, that's what anyone on this thread said

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:29 (twenty-two years ago)

unless you wanna argue the diff between uk garage and us hip-hop is uk garage is "more" influenced by dancehall (in which case read more billboard)

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:30 (twenty-two years ago)

just like anyone said english people won't call garage music hip hop due to nationalistic fervour?

― sean g, Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:31 (twenty-two years ago)

seriously j blount, is someone mumbling 'oh my gosh, orange squash' over some hyper pitched vocals and piano lines hiphop?

shurely john's definition is a wee bit all-encompassing?

― ambrose (ambrose), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:32 (twenty-two years ago)

anyhow, go ahead, the brits invented everything, america's had no impact on world pop culture, when analysing dizzee rascal it's important to ignore his music, his interviews, his wardrobe, his videos, him him him

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:33 (twenty-two years ago)

" 'oh my gosh, orange squash' over some hyper pitched vocals and piano lines hiphop?" - is the new outkast hip-hop?

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:34 (twenty-two years ago)

"part of an essentially american tradition" = wrong. he's part of a british movement the draws on hip hop, dancehall reggae (to a far greater degree) and a variety of club-based dance music. this pervasive idea that all british music is beholden to older US versions just winds me up. it also horrifies me that dizzee will be pushed in the states as hip-hop when there is so much more to his work, plus evaluating him in terms of hip hop only gives people who don't and can't understand his music a stick to beat him with (it doesn't sound like Luidacris = it's shit).
a small afterthought: roots manuva, rodney p, estelle, wildflower et al = hip hop
dizzee = not

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:35 (twenty-two years ago)

"part of an essentially american tradition" = wrong. he's part of a british movement the draws on hip hop, dancehall reggae (to a far greater degree) and a variety of club-based dance music. this pervasive idea that all british music is beholden to older US versions just winds me up. it also horrifies me that dizzee will be pushed in the states as hip-hop when there is so much more to his work, plus evaluating him in terms of hip hop only gives people who don't and can't understand his music a stick to beat him with (it doesn't sound like Ludacris = it's shit).
a small afterthought: roots manuva, rodney p, estelle, wildflower et al = hip hop
dizzee = not

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:35 (twenty-two years ago)

james i am totally in agreement about hiphop's influence but it's a really facile point and anyway to backpedal and say that you've been gently merely reminding blinkered englishmen rabidly in denial 'pretending it isn't', without any personal dismissive reductive pleasure is taking the piss

― Chip Morningstar (bob), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:37 (twenty-two years ago)

how is there so much more to boy in da corner than there was to stankonia?

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:38 (twenty-two years ago)

u tell him chip bludd

― sean g, Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:38 (twenty-two years ago)

it doesn't sound like Ludacris = it's shit???

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:39 (twenty-two years ago)

but of course i wouldn't know, i've only been part of this whole thing for over a decade...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:41 (twenty-two years ago)

i mean you admit "it's not just hiphop" so why not talk about that instead rather than impotently sniping away

furthermore if the english here have been exaggerating ukg's newness it'll be in reaction to you more than anything i hope... if stelfox really believes hiphop has absolutely nothing to do with it then i wash my hands of him

― Chip Morningstar (bob), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Chip - I've yet to post a reductive thing bout Dizzee (nothing but bigups here) but I do hafta laff at a Britishpress that's all "he's our Tupac" one minute but cries foul if you say "he's your hip-hop". it's just more "we haddem first/you won't understand/you can't understand" indieisms.

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:43 (twenty-two years ago)

haha xpost with "listen junior"!!!

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:43 (twenty-two years ago)

blount's English rap = Betty Boo hurt me in my head/heart. Dizzee Rascal strikes me as having a clear connection to the likes of Gunshot, London Posse and the Ragga Twins - the whole point is its no longer JUST hip hop, JUST ragga, JUST garage. usually i am cool with arguing about genre definitions but its getting ridiculous with this shit - hey i've got a new one that just rolls off the tongue - raprage

same songs, same rhymes - new beats tho

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:43 (twenty-two years ago)

that said, my original post had more to do with whether analysing/judging an answer record by its feminist intent/content might - might - be missing the point.

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Is that the dude from Digital Underground as one of the male voices on the Sheisty track? I sure wish it were.

I don't see why Dizzee has to be hip hop, unless he starts saying that he's explicitly working within hip hop. Of course, he's fucked everyone off by saying he's not garage, while he comes out of a UKG tradition, so maybe it all is up for grabs. But for hip hop to automatically have some claim on what he's doing, with no attempt to account for the regional specificity of it, seems a bit like rock journalists starting to subsume hip hop as a part of the rock canon (which is indeed happening).

While hip hop is no longer wedded to the the rather mono-stylistic boom-bip template that it was for much of the 90s, it seems to me that the rhythmic specificity of Dizzee et al would keep it within the UKG genre, at least until it mutates further. When jungle MCs rap over beats, does that make it hip hop?

― philip sherburne (philip sherburne), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:46 (twenty-two years ago)

is it ok to call "return of the mack" r&b?

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:47 (twenty-two years ago)

why do i like Shisty's 'I Luv U'? - because of the DIY ethic, because of the 'response' record concept, because she seems cool, because the guys voices are funny and the lyrics sound - its a fun messy slanger of a tune. Dizzee still wins tho.

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:48 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm not saying there's more to dizzee than there is to hip hop as a genre. i'm saying there is more to be taken into account of when evaluating his music that than a such a blinkered viewpoint ("without the good old us of a those poor backward brits would never have anything of worth") allows. hell, we got no culture here that exists outside of that which you see fit to magnanimously give us have we? i give up - james you obviously know far more about this than me

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:48 (twenty-two years ago)

and it kinda does a disservice to a musical culture that has been rapidly progressing for 12 or so years now

― sean g, Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:50 (twenty-two years ago)

dave are you even reading my posts?

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:51 (twenty-two years ago)

and i've never said it's got nothing to do with hip hop... look at the posts above (you can still was your hands of me if you like chip - i'll sleep at night) but that doesn't mean it is hip hop.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:52 (twenty-two years ago)

hip hop was invented by Europeans anyway (Moroder, Kraftwerk, The Clash...haha)

the thing is nobody should ever be offended to be labelled as either hip hop or garage. calling Dizzee or Mike Skinner either one never does seem quite right though just because while it may be the dominant styling it negates other elements of their music - nods to other genres, attitudes, ideas, even if they did all come out the same thing.

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:53 (twenty-two years ago)

"it's something new, but let's not refuse to connect dots for the sake of her majesty the queen."

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:54 (twenty-two years ago)

the thing i kept thinking the most when listening to 'Boy In Da Corner' was how PUNK it seemed - the mess, the filth, the violence, the shrieking and bizarre accents and noises he makes as he spits...

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I do hope boy in da corner is the record that actually introduces the term garage (uk def) to US rockcrit press, since the overwhelming majority found a way to skirt it completely when writing up craig david or mike skinner.

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:57 (twenty-two years ago)

just for the record, i love hip hop and americans... and yes james io am reading yr posts... dizzee = part of hip hop but to evaluate him solely in hip hop terms sells a whole cultural movement (UKG) short.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Does calling it hip-hop mean hip-hop has some claim on it? I don't see why. It's just pointing out the obvious--the thing is that, as "Chip" says, it may be a facile point, but it wasn't one that anyone was making until recently. Reynolds, for one, managed to write thousands of words about the roots of garage rap without mentioning hip-hop once.

It sort of reminds me of an argument I had on ILM once over hip-hop's roots in Jamaica, which would up being an either-or thing. I don't see why you can't talk about the origins of hip-hop in the context of both Jamaica and New York, or garage rap in the context of both America and Britain. Or why calling it hip-hop, or connecting it to it, can't mean giving it a window onto a much wider tradition, rather than closing it down.

Aside from all that, the reason why I would make the hip-hop connection here, far more than in jungle or 2-step, is that the beats aren't so different. I don't really see garage rap as a big change or innovation in rhythm. A lot of it doesn't sound very far removed from say Roots Manuva to me (the dub metal bass)--it's just a lot better than him.

(PS I am British and have been listening to British dance music for over a decade. So limit yourself to "jaded" stock responses only please!)

(PPS What really makes me jaded is not garage rap; it's the familiar way it's being written about.)

― Ben Williams, Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Um, why can't some tracks Dizzee makes be hip-hop and some not?

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 14:01 (twenty-two years ago)

"without the good old us of a those poor backward brits would never have anything of worth"

Dave, while you may take "Dizzee is hiphop" to mean this or something like this, that's you being defensive, not anybody actually saying what you're accusing them of saying

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 14:01 (twenty-two years ago)

calling it hip-hop, or connecting it to it, can't mean giving it a window onto a much wider tradition, rather than closing it down.

connecting to it = fine
calling it hip hop = not

Dave, while you may take "Dizzee is hiphop" to mean this or something like this, that's you being defensive, not anybody actually saying what you're accusing them of saying

i'd just like to see this music being judged on its own terms rather than forced to fit a box that it doesn't

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 14:03 (twenty-two years ago)

most of the original pirate material reviews were either "holy smokes - not merely a white rapper but a white english (ie really white) rapper"(still) or "finally an english rapper" or some variation on "english rap english rap english rap" and JUST that, no context, from what it sprung, nothing, which is Amercentric, provincial, whatevah, yeah but mainly just incompetent and particularly unforgiveable with opm - that album's all context. so I can understand some defensiveness since so many American critics gave no clue of actually getting the record (and not even in the way of "getting it = relating" just "getting it = actually listening to the lyrics of 'let's push things forward'")(and the record cleaned up in the pazz & jopp [er, hi matos!] so clearly it was liked. you'd just think maybe there'd be a bit more curiosity/interest/respect/feeling the need to get it.)

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 14:07 (twenty-two years ago)

that said, the music must be judged on it's own terms argument is rubbish also

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 14:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean "Fix Up Look Sharp" isn't anything but hip-hop, surely. In fact its (to paraphrase Tim H on NYLPM) the holy grail of UK hip-hop, an undeniable club banger which keeps a totally British sensibility. Great! Rejoice! Thumbs up! I think it's my favourite record this year! But "I Luv You" sounds much less like hip-hop to me.

Though maybe it still is of course! But I think - sorry to go all ILM and use rock as a comparison - there comes a point where a genre superword stops being useful and where a track is forceful/odd enough to demand you use something else to describe it. Like Metallica or ELP or Black Flag or MBV were rock, yes, but calling them just 'rock' wasn't always useful. This kind of thing already happens in hip-hop which is why words like "miami bass" get used - yeah it's hip-hop but at the same time it's different enough that it's misleading not to qualify it. Some - not all - of Dizzee's stuff and other 'garage rap' is like this I think.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 14:09 (twenty-two years ago)

also much respect to Dave for being a true believer but don't go hurling charges of "blasphemer!" at dilletantes and expect them to be received as indictments instead of complements

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 14:11 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree--"I Luv You" does sound much less like hip-hop, it's more coming out of rave. But it turns out to be an anomaly on the album. I wish there were more tracks like that.

Anyway, really calling it hip-hop=just a way to wind people up. Would be a lot less easy to do if Brit dance culture didn't insist on coming up with a new name for something and calling it a revolution every time the bassline gets tweaked incrementally. (Sorry!)

― Ben Williams, Wednesday, 16 July 2003 14:13 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean my sister loves "I Luv You (Sharkey Remix)" cuz it reminds her of Cam'ron's "Oh Boy"! am I supposed to tell her she's not to allowed to love it that way?

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 14:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah but that should be called "I Luv You (Hip-Hop Remix)" ;)

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 14:19 (twenty-two years ago)

that said, the music must be judged on it's own terms argument is rubbish also

why? its own terms include hip hop but don't conform solely to that aesthetic, that's all i'm saying... it's not hip hop, it's not garage, it's something pretty new that a good bunch of us, who've spent a shitload of time trying to work it out, still haven't quite got nailed yet (as tico said)! that's the only point i'm trying to make and being told that my idea that it is not hip hop is "ridiculous" is somewhat irksome when this is something i've got quite an investment in.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 14:20 (twenty-two years ago)

cuz it = puritanism

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 14:22 (twenty-two years ago)

key word in "the music must be judged on it's own terms argument is rubbish also": must

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 14:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Dave that's not what I was saying exactly - I'm saying it probably is hip-hop but that's not the most interesting thing about it ("I Luv You" that is, not DR in general).

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 14:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Meanwhile back (more) on topic I've not heard Shisty either but the reason I'm not that excited (beyond thinking answer records are cool in general) is that the remix of "I Luv You" seemed to me the perfect answer record to the original anyway.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 14:25 (twenty-two years ago)

trudat!

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 14:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Dave that's not what I was saying exactly - I'm saying it probably is hip-hop but that's not the most interesting thing about it ("I Luv You" that is, not DR in general).

i was referring to your points about specific terms not being that useful cf the MBV stuff...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 14:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh OK yeah but that's not the same as saying "it's not hip-hop"!

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 14:33 (twenty-two years ago)

i didn't say it was! damn this thread is a big ol' web of misunderstandings so far! ;-)

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 14:36 (twenty-two years ago)

everyone is going to hate my fucking review of this record - if it ever even gets published, certainly not in the state it is now - and i can't express how pleased that makes me

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:15 (twenty-two years ago)

good thing the only people reading it are going to be a bunch of gay seattle hipsters, i guess

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:15 (twenty-two years ago)

haha - and every seattle weekly wannabe ilxor!

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:16 (twenty-two years ago)

i lead off with: "Boy In Da Corner is a very East London album. (Dizzee: “MCs better start chatting about what’s really happening. Because if you ain’t chattin about what’s happening and where you’re living, what are you talking about?”) I’ve never been there (so, I’m guessing…the Weekly turned down my field research request.)" but then i go on to talk about great hip-hop locations-of-the-mind. oh well!

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Boy In Da Corner could just as easily be a 'South or North London album' i think, whatever that even means, heh

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:29 (twenty-two years ago)

oh man, my sympathies mato!

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:35 (twenty-two years ago)

haha

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:35 (twenty-two years ago)

i said i was guessing! jesus, can't you limeys read.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:36 (twenty-two years ago)

it's like some mass cultural myopia since they finally got an mc who can actually ride a beat! go on, kill us with your big dicks!

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:38 (twenty-two years ago)

SHUT UP FASS DONT U KNO STEVIE HYPER D

― sean g, Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:41 (twenty-two years ago)

i also call him a cross between ghostface and paddington bear

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Boy In Da Corner could just as easily be a 'South or North London album' i think, whatever that even means, heh

apart from the bit where he's yelling about being from bow e3 and bigging up the hackney massive (of which i am one)...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:45 (twenty-two years ago)

you won't understand! you can't understand!

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Boy In Da Corner could just as easily be a 'South or North London album' i think, whatever that even means, heh

apart from the bit where he's yelling about being from bow e3 and bigging up the hackney massive (of which i am one)...

i also call him a cross between ghostface and paddington bear

that's fair enough, but he's still not hip hop...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:46 (twenty-two years ago)

would it have been better if i had called him a cross between the ragga twins and the gay one out of "are you being served?"

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:48 (twenty-two years ago)

THE GAY ONE?!?!?

― sean g, Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:48 (twenty-two years ago)

john inman's the name yr looking for and yes, yes, bloody hell yes it would have been!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:50 (twenty-two years ago)

newsflash to dave: no one in america knows who the ragga twins are

hell, i don't even know if the ghostface reference will pass the "american-readers-are-idiots" alarm

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:52 (twenty-two years ago)

i realise that and was kidding as much as you, it's just a great juxtaposition and made me laugh

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:53 (twenty-two years ago)

i will probably have to settle for "benny hill and mc hammer"

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:56 (twenty-two years ago)

haha just4ulondon: But this isn’t a hip-hop record either, despite the fact that it foregrounds beats and rhymes. (Big deal, so a does a Celine Dion record.)

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:57 (twenty-two years ago)

eminem and quentin crisp

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:58 (twenty-two years ago)

frank spencer and method man

― sean g, Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:58 (twenty-two years ago)

(Big deal, so a does a Celine Dion record.)

spesh when she's doing dancehall - my spine still crawls w/ horror at the memory of listening to this...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 16:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Ol' Dirty Bastard and The Wombles

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 16:01 (twenty-two years ago)

don't forget to mention how it's really dark, humourless, is made by a teenager, he's the voice of a generation (a bit like kurt cobain), 2pac was also a rapper and a black man

― sean g, Wednesday, 16 July 2003 16:01 (twenty-two years ago)

John Lydon and Alf Garnett's black tenant in In Sickness And In Health

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 16:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Steve is the winner!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 16:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Despite being Australian, I'm sympathetic to Dave's line of argument, not because I think that conceptualising Dizzee as hip hop is wrong but because it's just right enough to have a big influence on how garage sees itself. I think that the connections b/w garage and rap are great and healthy, but I equally think that garage needs to retain a level of distance that will allow it to also be open to dancehall, rave, etc. and continue to fulfil its role as the great intersection/market-hall of different black dance music ideas that it has been to date.

Of course US hip hop is actually a lot more like this cross-section now than it has been in a while, but it's been around for long enough that its image of itself is watertight and a couple of bhangra beats aren't going to damage that too much. Garage is too young though to be tied comprehensively to another genre with all its baggage in tow - if garage rap becomes "UK hip hop" I can see it easily drifting towards DJ Premier style hip hop claccisism.

One of the values of the current "riddim" style arrangement is that it helps to remind us that this music is developing on a dual tract - on one hand there's changes to MC-ing, and on the other hand the music is constantly developing and mutating. The sense of the music and the MC being equally valued and emphasised reminds me of dancehall, and like dancehall the scene is caught halfway in development from a former style (let's call this style "rave", but obv. I'm meaning the hardcore continuum up to and including 2-step; in Jamaica's case it's reggae) and hip hop.

I think dancehall has managed to find a really healthy position where it can continue to constantly accrete and accumulate hip hop ideas and influences, while working that successfully into a framework that is firmly tied to the roots of its own culture (I can imagine garage being like dancehall as well in that, despite being MC dominated, the scene will continually produce "throwbacks" to earlier stages of the hardcore continuum in the same way that Sizzla will record lots of "traditional" dancehall/reggae songs). If dancehall hadn't been able to retain this independence, its relationship to US hip hop wouldn't be nearly so interesting or productive, because beyond the Diwali riddim and bhangra beats, the real lure of dancehall from a US Hip Hop perspective is its essential alienness - an alienness that must be stronger than the novelty of regional hip hop stylings (eg. Dirty South), for why else does dancehall sound so utterly fresh every time it makes a periodic assault on the national consciousness?

I think this is the basis for a lot of the anxiety that many feel over garage rap becoming "UK Hip Hop" - the sense that this music taken in context of its historical development has always been sufficiently connected-but-detached that it acts as a continual wellspring for new ideas and new approaches, in a way that actual UK Hip Hop, however meritorious, has not been able to do so. Some may argue that this is because actual UK Hip Hop has not been up to the task, but I think the truth is more fundamental: having defined itself as standing in the shadows of Hip Hop Proper, how can it possibly do anything else?

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Thursday, 17 July 2003 01:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually Tim the problem with 'actual' UK Hip-Hop is that for ages it defined itself as the UK version of US Hip-Hop but wasn't very good, then it realised it needed to stop trying to be American but that also meant stopping trying to be successful, so now it's more like (ahem) 'undie' than anything else with associated suspicion of success. I still like it though!

I finally found a copy of the Dizzee album meanwhile and I'm a bit underwhelmed.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Thursday, 17 July 2003 07:25 (twenty-two years ago)

thanks Tim. right, let me set out my stall one final time: re garage rap, I think connecting the dots to hip hop, dancehall, drum'n'bass and the rest of hardcore vitally important, necessary and unequivocally correct. the only thing i don't like is the sense of co-option i get from garage rap being simply assessed in terms of us hip-hop without recognition of its independence, sense of self and very specific, complex lineage.
i'm sorry, but james is still wrong because dizzee would be equally unhappy to be seen as pure hip hop as he would straight-up UK garage (cf Vexed on this point). he sees his work as "new british urban music" and this is about right, but not exactly catchy for the neologists among us.
if you stumble across another thread (i can't remember the name of it, otherwise I'd link) you'll see me quite forcefully assert the centrality of hip-hop to the whole hardcore continuum, so i'm not disagreeing about recognising this, particularly in the US where this link will be vital in even getting people to listen to Dizzee et al - but don't let this be your sole interpretive filter, otherwise you're missing many other crucial points.
it's not a matter of me claiming ownership of this music and i have never said people outside its very specific regional strongholds won't understand and can't understand it. all i am doing is bringing a little context to the discussion. after all, it's a fact that i am lucky enough to live where this music is made and have some considerable record of involvement with it. quite simply it's a lot more than a soulseek download to me, it's an entire culture that's right on my doorstep.
i'm overjoyed that dizzee is getting so much support all over the world but i have seen an awful of misguided interpretations and absurd conjecture associated with him on ilm. considering some of the outlandish things that have been stated (my fave being that he is quite probably a fan of gene pitney - solely due to someone mishearing a certain lyric... dare i say a prime case of not understanding?), i think it's important to lend some objectivity to proceedings.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 17 July 2003 09:36 (twenty-two years ago)

and if i've been defensive abt it, it's only coz this stuff matters to me...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 17 July 2003 09:41 (twenty-two years ago)

'actual' UK Hip-Hop is that for ages it defined itself as the UK version of US Hip-Hop but wasn't very good

but any hip hop from a country outside the US would've been seen that way i think, unless you just mean how British rappers sounded on record - but fake American accents? i dont think this was actually that common - and if you listen to late 80s/early 90s hip hop from London, Manchester or Bristol that doesnt seem to be the case at all. the dismissive assumption that British hip hop has always been crap for whatever reason is a view i do not share (it was at least mediocre dammit)

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 17 July 2003 10:39 (twenty-two years ago)

I like it a lot now Stevem but the earlier stuff I've heard doesn't do much for me (except Betty Boo of course - Blount WONT AND CANT understand her etc etc). But I'm no expert.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Thursday, 17 July 2003 10:42 (twenty-two years ago)

UK Hip Hop

C90: UK hip hop - the definitive retrospective

i just keep thinking about that Ruthless Rap Assassins/London Posse/Gunshot period around 10-13 years ago and some good tracks came out of it...they probably wouldn't impress anyone now of course but whatever. i think Roots Manuva may be a tad over-rated just because he's not too versatile, but 'Witness' is still one of the best hip hop (whatever that is) tracks of the last 5 years imo.

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 17 July 2003 10:45 (twenty-two years ago)

i would say the problem is 'British rap acts can't sell like American ones can' rather than 'British rap acts just aren't as good as American ones' which i don't accept. accept that there are fundamental (if narrow) cultural differences between the two nations when it comes to this sort of thing, but you could just as easily say the U.S. has better rock acts, better pop acts etc. (and you'd be right, except the UK throws up all kinds of gems every year in all these genres - the pop and rock ones sell okay, the hip hop ones don't i guess - but Dizzee's sales figures will be quite encouraging i think)

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 17 July 2003 10:50 (twenty-two years ago)

You like Betty Boo Tico? I do a lot! dizzee's not hip hop!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 17 July 2003 10:53 (twenty-two years ago)

;-)

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 17 July 2003 10:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Greatest female rapper ever now writing songs for Girls Alahd shockah...

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 17 July 2003 10:54 (twenty-two years ago)

i fancied her quite a bit though not a great fan at the time...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 17 July 2003 11:04 (twenty-two years ago)

i've used up all my tissues, cos there's more serious of issues

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 17 July 2003 11:11 (twenty-two years ago)

she was the UK roxanne f'real

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 17 July 2003 11:11 (twenty-two years ago)

i would like to declare here my everlasting love for roots manuva

― Chip Morningstar (bob), Thursday, 17 July 2003 11:21 (twenty-two years ago)

i also had quite a thing for cathy dennis (not hip hop either)

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 17 July 2003 11:37 (twenty-two years ago)

i hereby renounce my anglophilia on the charge that you are all fuckin nuts

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 17 July 2003 15:03 (twenty-two years ago)

also tom, the album is a "grower"...i was distinctly underwhelmed the first few times too...i listened to it this past sunday, however, and it sounded fucking great (and this is after i wrote 2500 words about it [which i somehow managed to cut down to 900 for print.])

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 17 July 2003 15:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah I have to admit sitting on a tube train in London is DESPITE BEING ITS PROPER CONTEXT YOU YANK KNOW-NOTHINGS perhaps not the best circs for a first listen.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Thursday, 17 July 2003 15:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe you're supposed to listen to it drunk? (I liked it well enough on my one listen, haven't been compelled to relisten.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 17 July 2003 16:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I think I meant re: UK hip hop that whether it's great or not or whether its chart or undie, it's still never going to have the same *impact* that dancehall (or potentially garage rap) will - it's still hip hop. It's doing better to assert itself as a force these days, but only in much the same way that any regional variant of hip hop might.

The value of a semantic separation from hip hop is the chance to form or retain separate core musical values - see for example Miami Bass, which couldn't really have developed the way it did if it had come under the umbrella of hip hop. Of course, its development filtered back into hip hop via dirty south/bounce, but would that shift have seemed as exciting as it had if there wasn't that level of distance and separation beforehand?

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Friday, 18 July 2003 04:02 (twenty-two years ago)

i hereby renounce my anglophilia

this coming from a man that thinks, and i quote, that we're "a funny little island"!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 18 July 2003 08:12 (twenty-two years ago)

and if you think having a thing for cathy dennis is nuts, well, you're gonna love this one. for a while i lived in a town called norwich. it's a bit like the english version of poughkeepsie (not that i've ever been there but it sounds like a dud place to live). this is where cathy dennis is from. my friend was also a big fan. it was his 21st birthday and there was a huge display of cathy dennis stuff in the local hmv including a life-size cardboard cutout of her. i went to the shop, explained the situation and they lat me take cardboard cathy home. i gave her to rob on the day of his birthday. he proceeded to fold her into a sitting position and drove around town with her in the front seat of his car for about a month...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 18 July 2003 09:33 (twenty-two years ago)

and then, he ditched her, like all the others...Cardboard Cathy hit the bottle pretty bad but now works in the Lowestoft branch of Aldi.

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 18 July 2003 09:40 (twenty-two years ago)

three weeks pass...

Shisty's still good.

― jadrenos (jadrenos), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 15:16 (twenty-two years ago)

one month passes...

SHYSTIE
http://www.rwdmag.com/gallery/images/120x120/shys1197rwd.jpg

did anyone buy the 12 of i luv u?

"A whole album is in the pipeline. The b-side to ‘I Love You’ was produced by the Streets and I’m working with him again, as well as going on tour supporting him, I’m really looking forward to that."

― sean., Friday, 3 October 2003 19:01 (twenty-two years ago)

hey, wow!

(also: maybe this has been mentioned before, but i was reading an interview w dizzee somewhere and he said he almost titled the album "dizzee new heights" - maybe just an obvious pun but maybe an explicit streets reference?)

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Friday, 3 October 2003 19:08 (twenty-two years ago)

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