The Associates: Have the years been kind?

I reckon their best work is on the early singles compliation 'Fourth Drawer Down'. Amazingly each track is completely different from the rest ('White Car in Germany' ' Message Oblique Speech' 'Tell me Easter's on Friday', 'Kitchen Person' - each sounds like nothing else you've ever heard, yet after the first ten seconds could ONLY be by The Associates. I'm not all that fond of Sulk, mainly because they've ditched some of the experimentation. I don't really like the glacial, brittle production that they've used across the whole album. I respect the fact that they've gone for an extreme sound, It just doesn't work for me.

The Associates required you to enter their world to enjoy their music, not always easy, but worth the effort.

Dr. C

I'd go against the grain of the good Doctor - I find the first two CDs much harder going than "Sulk" - rewarding to be sure but still tough ("White Car In Germany" though is tremendous with no equivocation). "Sulk" though sparkles - I love the 'glacial' production and the hysteria of it all. And "Party Fears Two" is one of those handful of singles I occasionally get worked up about and pronounce "THIS IS THE GREATEST SINGLE OF ALL TIME" which means in that instant it least, it is.

Also in 1999, Uncut, Simon Reynolds reviewed the reissues and highly praised the ambition of Associates music. These reissues made album of the month feature in Uncut.

Associates along with Cabaret Voltaire will be remembered for many years to come.

Also I think their should be a national curriculum for kids in Secondary schools to sample the more creative pop and rock acts of the past years, then they would have a greater understanding of the context of interesting music.

The Associates would be on this curriculum.

Oh, and "Party Fears Two" *is* the greatest single of all time. One of the five, anyway.

The Associates WILL be remembered long after some of today's POPSTARS are long forgotten.

But, like most of us i suspect, for all the genuine affection I have for 'Sulk' I have nothing else by the Associates or the late Billy Mackenzie. Any recommendations?

DG: I have seen this record you mention, I'm sure: in Tower or Virgin... Check Amazon (or somewhere...)

"Club Country" on TOTP2 just now *unbelievably* awesome: the sort of thing that justifies these mostly tedious clip shows in one transcendent moment.

I was wrong...boy was I EVER wrong.

I think The Associates did 4 albums in total, the last was after Rankine left. In fact they did a complete re-mix of their first LP and re-released it, anyone remeber that, it wasn't a patch on the original though.

Of course, Rankine-era Associates are one of the all-time GRATES.

Am I a fhoul for feeling that "Club Country" looms large over "Party Fears Two"?

http://www.btinternet.com/~cateran/edinburgh/sinatra1x1.gif

I was pestering people in the office by humming the tune to see if anybody knew what it was but nobody knew. Then just the other day they played it on advert for the CD "Alternative Eighties" so I had to buy it. Now my mind is at rest! Strange CD, mind.

It's probably a better album than "Wild & Lonely", but probably less than essential if you've already got the Rankine-era albums.

I seem to remember that there is still supposed to be another album's worth of unreleased Boris Blank collaborations. That must be the last of the releasable stuff in the vaults.

With regard to the posthumous releases, I would have prefered "Smile"-esque compilations of the Winter Academy and Outerpol albums, as opposed to the scattershot approach of "Beyond The Sun" et al.

BTW, I've still got a sealed copy of the deleted "Eurocentric" if anyone is after it.

Didn't realise it was already worth £130. At this rate it's going to overtake my other two 'nest egg' records (Radiohead's "Drill" EP (vinyl) and XTC's "Wrapped in Grey" CD single).

Ned, you might be confusing "Eurocentric" with "Outernational" - Billy's only 'proper' solo album, released in 1992. I've got one of those as well, but it's far too good to sell...

it still sounds fresh as hell to my ears btw.

all remastered in the last three years.

ned any help on the lyrics?

You are to please tell her that my estimation of her has grown even stronger.

"Mona Property Girl" (and its superior incarnation "A Girl Named Property") should be pretty obvious...it's a rambling about females being looked upon as Earth-mothers/all-giving goddesses and having tribute paid to them by naming things after them as a sort of worship or as a means of comfort or company (like the song says) taken to silly proportions... ("Mona property girl...Mona property world...Mona office blocks...") I think it's a funny song, probably my favourite by Associates.

(Though at this second I listen me to "Mona Property Girl.")

Michael Dempsey gave a cryptic reference to further tracks for release at the end of his brief liner notes for Double Hipness, though I wonder if he was more referring to the still unreleased state of Affectionate at that point. Still though, hmm.

(i love sulk, yes i do)

It's absolutely astounding. Björk being a massive fan of Mackenzie's makes sense but in the Sugarcubes or solo I've never sensed her work to be quite as...*searches for the word*...careening, shall we say.

It's also a case where all the stories about the recording and the run up to it, what went into it, what they tried, etc. all make sense. You read PR guff all the time about how some band's third album (which Sulk sorta was if you count Fourth Drawer Down's singles comp as the second) is going to be the Experimental Shift in Style What Is Different or soundbites about 'there were no rules in the studio, we decided to come in fresh' or whatever and they create something with a boring drum loop and keyboard part. Then there's this.

There's a double CD of singles WEA released last year with that and "Kites" on it.

Almost picked that up yesterday at Amoeba but it's a bit much for two songs, even with credit -- I did, however, quite happily find the first of the two BBC session discs used, which made me astoundingly happy. Also found one of the three archival rereleases of Billy's late solo stuff that One Little Indian put out -- the organization of it all is unclear, but the three discs are apparently an overview of everything that surfaced on Beyond the Sun, Memory Palace (the Haig collaborative disc) and Eurocentric, plus/minus some songs. Memory Palace has been rereleased with some extra remixes, so I'll skip that, but Transmission Impossible is what I snagged yesterday -- the more 'torchy' songs he did with Steve Aungle and others, I gather. The remaining disc is Auchtermatic, which I believe covers the more electronic/dance stuff with Aungle.

Fucking hell, they just seem more and more amazing, and I only have Fourth Drawer Down and Sulk! I'm going to obtain the rest once The Affectionate Punch comes out -- it'll be a good time for a Billy Mac buying binge.

It's better than that, though. We should really do a late period Billy Mackenzie S/D...

I'd love to snag Transmission Impossible and Auchtermatic both — I don't know Outernational or Beyond the Sun, but Memory Palace was decent, not terrific. Eurocentric sounded great and got glowing reviews, but went out of print so quickly I wouldn't know. I actually really enjoyed some of the '93 Rankine reunion stuff on Double Hipness quite a bit — nothing like the original magic, but shame they couldn't hold it together.

Maybe someone will recommend a nice convenient accessible song which will change my mind about them completely.

Speaking of production though, was listened to these 2 this weekend and came to wonder about the sounds in Sulk. I read something about the production once but can't remember where. Anyone have any details, specifically regarding the sounds? There's all these bell like sounds that just don't sound like analog synths, but it's too early for FM synths. Were they using a PPG Wave? Any other thoughts?

As do I. But the one thing The Affectionate Punch lacks Sulk's intersection with pop, which of course, is what makes the latter so thrilling.

I think I prefer the songs on the Affectionate Punch as well. A bit less...melodramatic.

Mmmm, maybe — they're both pretty histrionic. But whatever they've retitled "Janice" is def. among their best songs.

Also, Dan, I've read what they used there too, and can't remember. But based on the pads alone, the PPG Wave is a good guess.

Affectionate Punch is one of the great lost post-punk records, along with the first three Sound LPs and the first three Comsat Angels LPs. I hope the reissue rectifies that, much like the Sound reissues did. The Comsats need a proper reissue (even though that 3 disc bootleg set was awesome, the band deserves some money, proper distribution, proper press.)

Sulk is otherworldly. It sits nicely along side Climate Of Hunter as a shining example of 80s avant pop.

you can listen to any of those singles that were compiled on Fourth Drawer Down and think, shit, were these produced yesterday, and why are they still so much better than most of what is "cutting edge" today?

they will always remain a cult band, but one who's influence will probably never be measured in the degree of what it should be sadly... I think it is due to the fact that people still have a hard time dealing with music that has exceedingly dynamic vocals.

i miss them, i really do.

And I bet Sulk informed Walker's songwriting on Climate.

I would venture to say that b/c while Billy and Alan listened to torch songs and the like for inspiration, people today listen to Fourth Drawer Down...

I have my own copy on order and await with anticipation. It's been an Associates/Mackenzie couple of weeks for me -- in the UK I picked up the Mackenzie Auchtermatic comp, which is seriously great, as well as the double-disc Singles comp from last year, while I ordered and received the second Radio 1 sessions disc. Time to drown in it all all over again.

"I preferred the US version of the Sulk to the UK one - the version of 'it's better this way' in particular, alot more manic...I prefer the track selection and running order too. I find Sulk to be just a bit scrappy (Bap De La Bap, Nude Spoons) or clumpy (Gloomy Sunday)in places, but perhaps that's just by comparison with the glittering singles popdrama or haunting melancholy of most of the rest of it.

Although its weaker tracks are worse than anything on Sulk, I think 'Perhaps' also has certain tracks which are better than anything on Sulk - eg cabaret glam emotiveness teetering on the edge of hysterical madness in the amazing 'Thirteen Feelings'....then fighting its way back from it with the astonishing 'The Stranger In Your Voice' (find it hard to imagine any voice other than MacKenzie's being able to soar through that amazing, skirling, swirling blast of synthetic/orchestral sound - though I'd like to hear Peter Hammill try!).
The instrumental versions of both these tracks on the extended cassette release show just how in-credible the music is.

-- Snowy Mann, February 3rd, 2003."

Despite wanting to replace my fading cassette - the only CD I can ever find of 'Sulk' is the UK version :(

Ned - I know what you mean wrt 'Wild & Lonely', but i think you should stick with it:
I had a copy of this on tape for ages, having also felt 'meh' after my initial listens - then after 6-8 months or so i tried it again one summer morning in the car while doing a motorway schlep...

To my amazement, it suddenly worked - I found much of it had a kind of poppy optimism suited to motorway cruising in hot/bright weather, sunroof open...(all the more surprising to me as I generally *hate* summer and all that associated yeeha stuff)

I also found via high volume in that enclosed space that i noticed lots of details in the sounds/instruments/production that i really liked - i think there is a real 'deftness' to the production: the instruments/sounds are all given enough room spatially/timbrally, there is a crystalline beauty/intricacy in how it's all arranged.

(You can pick out *every* layered element really clearly from the mix once you have noticed it or decided to pay attention to it, in a way that seems clearer and easier than most other albums i have, and as clearly as on any.
eg try listening on headphones, loud as is comfortable, and focus on all the little sonic thwackery and snaps and pops going on in the offbeats on, say, 'Fever')

No, the material's not anything like the freedom and intensity and half-madness of much of the earlier stuff (but then 'Breakfast' isn't either, and you like that?), but it has it's own appeal - as a work i place it more towards Fagen/Steely Dan type of stuff (ok not *like* them but y'know more like that than 4th Drawer Down !)

Examples of Particulars i like:

good string arrangements throughout

'Calling All Around the World' - like some great 1960's pop song, brimming with optimism, complete with harpsichordy stabs during first verse, the BBC Radio2 'tijuana brass' type feel throughout, the vocal from refrain 2:48 to 3:07...

That 13-second ascending vocal line from about 3:41 to 3:54 of 'Where There's Love'

The subtle triple-echo added just to the 2nd snare hit of each bar during the verses of 'Ever Since That Day'

'Something's Got to Give' - the sonic edges: the little bubbling/gurgling sounds of synth & hyperfast gtr picking popping up; the *sharpest* of pizzicato strings; the processed tablas/congas that appear for about 15 seconds at 2:16, and from 4:15 to 4:30; and the way those seem to be further stretched and warped into providing another rhythmic element from 3:28 to 3:57

'Strasbourg Square' - the first of 2 lovely melancholy tracks to finish - the bit from 2:00 to 2:44 reaches Propaganda-like levels of epic beauty to me, but without the teutonic weightiness - the way that 3-note cello-like bass phrase gradually becomes more prominent, and I'm always left aching for it to keep going or EXPLODE into something; the 15-16 second vocal stretch from 3:24 to 3:39

'Wild And Lonely' - come on, tell me that these piano chords aren't just gorgeous... and that final plaintive vocal of 'god it's only me...'
(there is a plausible case to be made that the rhythm sounds are over-processed throughout this track, but i find they don't distract enough to spoil the melancholy mood)

hope this helps Ned...

That voice is still annoying as fuck though.

Listening to this now and indeed, I keep forgetting how enjoyable this is -- the later demos from the aborted reunion are too stiff by half but otherwise all the earliest demos (Mackenize, Rankine and hired backing band) plus a dozen or so from the 'classic' lineup with Dempsey on bass are total treats. The earliest ones are great for being such obvious Sparks knockoffs, but fantastic nonetheless.

After a brief interview, Billy M. and Paul Haig perform "Amazing Grace" on STV's Hogmanay show in 1986. The opening of the song doesn't accurately convey what happens next.

A lovely performance of "Kites," the Simon Dupree song that he first did under the 39 Lyon Street guise with Christine Beveridge singing -- this is from French TV around the time of the Perhaps promo tours.

Billy gets interviewed by Leslie Ash for The Tube pre-Perhaps and merrily takes her for a ride.

The tragically awful B. A. Robertson interviews Billy and Alan for Friday Night, Saturday Morning following a mimed performance of "Party Fears Two"

I haven't heard anything after Sulk, though Waiting For The Love Boat is alright. I think. I can't really remember it very well, to be honest. Should I look into it?

"Skipping" from that Friday Night Saturday Morning show

The Creatures did a similar tribute with "Say" -- and knowing Siouxsie, she probably complained about how Robert ripped her off again. ;-)

We owe a debt of gratitude to Nigel Reeve at EMI (who, as it turns
out, also looks after Bowie's reissues), who, once he'd made his mind
up to go with the reissues, spared no expense and cut no corners.
Remastered on the very Abbey Road desk that was built by Mike
Batchelor for the original "Dark Side of the Moon" sessions... it was
quite an experience... No one was in this for anything other than
love. Becky, who has done the artwork "remastering" even dug out some
old Associates magazine articles that she'd kept since the early 80s,
proving that she was anything but a mere hired hand.

For myself, the real triumph is that I honestly believe that the
original CD masters never even came close to reproducing the sound of
the mix tapes, basically meaning that other than Billy, Julian
Mendelson, and very few others (probably including Blair), none of us
were actually hearing these albums in their full glory. This has now
been rectified with bells on.

It is unlikely that any of Billy's work will ever be reissued in any
physical format ever again, the future of music archiving is almost
certainly downloading. This made it all the more important to get
these albums out there in the sound quality that will henceforth
always be available in. Anything less would have been less than they
deserve.

I've said it before, but I cannot wait for you guys to hear Wild &
Lonely. At the moment you only think you know it. It'll knock your
socks off... I'm getting goosebumps just thinking about it...

Thank you all. Again.

Jude

TOTP performance of "Club Country"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEWkNoKxTUg&search=Associates

Meantime, I finally picked up Holger Hiller's Oben Im Eck, which I know Momus praised as containing Billy M.'s best thing ever, "Whippets," IIRC (though I can't seem to find the comment on this thread). It really *is* something bizarrely wonderful, and for the first time the idea of him as a proto-Bjork makes total sense in terms of sheer 'WTF.' And the fact that he named it after/wrote it about his 'spirit animal,' as the bio put it, makes it even better!

also - just picked up the "club country" 12" - fuck, had no idea there was an extended version! though, just looking now, it was mentioned upthread. if if if only the latin rascals had been around!

Meantime another YouTube treat -- "White Car in Germany" on Dutch TV in 1982.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI9lqh0Dwho

tell me easter's on friday, and i'll bend my hips

Tell me Easter's a draaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggg!

Was thinking about Billy this morning on the way into work, especially the stuff he did with Yello.

"Give me your gooooold..."

ah, someone else was thinking of it:

http://thep5.blogspot.com/2008/03/associates-tell-me-easters-on-friday.html

7 years, 2 months :(

Attention all -- Blair Booth, who worked with Billy for a long stretch, has put the Wild and Lonely demos tape up on eBay. He's on the Associates list and had discussed this with folks before doing it -- opinions differed but anyway:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280210968898

A bit of a rarity, this hadn't surfaced on YouTube yet -- "Those First Impressions" and "Waiting on the Loveboat" from 1984 on the TV show No. 73. Great stuff, of course:

They sound like the Pale Fountains or something.

(in that youtube clip, at least for the first few seconds)

Wait until he starts singing.

Speaking of which, how come I can't find no Pale Fountains threads on this thing? Geez louise.

Strange thing, but I found myself thinking about the Associates in the bath one day in 1997, not having listened to them for years. I got out, dried myself, turned on the radio and heard about billy's suicide.

So, when was "Party Fears One" released?

i was about to revive this thread last night, weird.

i always thought it was "tell me easters adjourned"? was always one of my favourite billy lyrics that way

i think it is adjourned

i want some live associates. any top boots available on blogs or soulseek?

There is or was a page with a bunch of shows for downloading, I recall.

Oh yeah, posted just upthread a bit:

http://associatestracks.blogspot.com/

thanks so much Mr. Ned
you just made my day

Glad to help!

Ned, with that posted link, I can finally forgive you for that YouTube vid about the cape. You are indeed a gentleman.

There's a new play on at Dundee Rep Theatre, "Balgay Hill", in June that is kind of Billy Mackenzie related. It's not purely autobiographical. I'm not going to explain it well, but here's the link: http://www.dundeereptheatre.co.uk/p2s22.html

Will be going along to see it, the Rep is usually good.

One tries, KBP.

And I kept forgetting to mention Balgay Hill! The Associates list has been talking about it for a bit -- and someone on there just posted a link to this thread so hello all who are seeing it for the first time! (I have to apologize as upthread I say Blair Brown is male, which is obv not the case!)

After the first half of this thread talked exclusively about Sulk, I'm glad The Affectionate Punch got some love after it was reissued in 2005. It's my favorite of theirs. AMG said "Two years later -- a year after the genius run of bizarre singles collected on Fourth Drawer Down and the same year as the high-drama overdrive of Sulk -- Rankine and Mackenzie partially re-recorded and completely remixed this album to spectacularly layered and glossy effect." Too bad the reissue didn't include that version, it might have won over some of the Sulk fans.

That version was already on CD for years, so it was quite exciting to get the original version back in print. I think it's like the Slapp Happy thing (Casablanca Moon/Acnalbasac Noom) some people prefer one, some the other, some like to pick from each!

Having fun on Dutch TV in 1982

Another Dundee-centric event coming up: a screening of the documentary "The Glamour Chase", introduced by Alan Rankine. The page says it's still TBC, but if it's on it's on June 2nd. Probably not much use for many of you, I know.

http://www.dca.org.uk/whats-on/films/the-glamour-chase-special-screening-and-talk.html

tell me easter's on friday, and i'll bend my hips

― cutty, Wednesday, March 19, 2008 10:25 AM (1 year ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

^^^

And to repeat myself in turn given the weekend:

"Tell me Easter's a draaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggg!"

http://www.songmeanings.net/songs/view/3530822107858589265/

says "splint my hips" hmmm

Ned, did you ever come around on Wild & Lonely? I enjoy the older CD I have. But esp. now that it's been remastered and reissued--and given how dramatically different Sulk sounded after its reissue (compare the old Popera master of "Party Fears Two" for a taste)--my guess is that this could be a pretty remarkable difference.

I haven't listened as much to the remaster as I could/should have but I do have it around, and while I still think it's a prisoner of its particular time and place there's a better album in there struggling to get out than I first thought. A couple of TV clips from the time helped to bring that home to me more.

Yeah -- listening to Wild and Lonely now, I feel like this record has aged very, very well. To begin with, the comparison to which this era of Billy is most regularly drawn--post-Avalon Bryan Ferry--is superficial at best and wrong at worst. Yes, it's "glossy" and "high tech" and both have marvelous voices -- but the similarities end there.

For one, there's much more weirdness going on here -- from the production touches (the varispeeded high keyboard melody of "Something's Got to Give") to the lyrics ("It all begins/With Santa Claus/And brilliant men/With brilliant flaws" is but one of the amazing couplets to be found throughout this).

And honestly, I think the production has dated quite well, really. There's this assumption that's been extrapolated from Ferry to every artist that became "slick" in the 1980's that this Xanadu-ification of studio technology naturally covered for a lack of ideas or inspiration.

That may be true for Ferry, Bowie and whoever else, but it just doesn't apply for Billy's post-Rankine work. Don't get me wrong: Sulk is desert island pick-worthy for me -- I love it as much as any record I own, probably. But in some ways, I think what Billy did from Perhaps-onward is riskier and bolder because he was pushing those limits wearing an MOR straitjacket. And while it's not "consistent," well...that was never Billy's strength anyway.

The full 40 minute edit of the documentary "The Glamour Chase" was given only it's second public airing at the DCA in Dundee tonight. It was originally made in 1999 for Grampian and STV. It's good, fairly zips through the life and times, I never saw the original 23 minute version when it was broadcast, but it must have battered through at a fair pace! Most of the detail is familiar from Tom Doyle's book of the same name, unsurprising as he was involved in the making of the documentary and the fact that the book itself was fairly exhaustive. There's talking-head contributions from the likes of Michael Dempsey, Max Hole, Chris Parry (a "Kiwi c-nt", according to Rankine...), Billy's father and sister, Boris Blank, Martin Fry, Glen Gregory, Marc Almond, Siouxie Sioux, Noko from Apollo440 and others. There's a few clips of the Ronnie Scotts performance in 1984 in a kind of jazz trio arrangement, not sure how widely available that has been but it looked great - the sound quality was good and clear, it would be great to have the audio of that.

Afterwards we got "Billy Sloan in Conversation With Alan Rankine", which was quite enjoyable. Sloan was knowledgeable and understated and not at all playing up to his reputation. Sloan basically asked him about his time in the band from beginning to end, his memories of Billy, that sort of thing. A few questions from the audience at one point but I couldn't think of anything to ask. On the subject of "William It Was Really Nothing", Rankine said that he doesn't know if anything ever happened between Billy and Morrissey, but if he knew Billy as well as he thought he did then he probably shagged Morrissey ragged... By the sound of it, they had fun at the time. He also mentioned that they got their rights back for recordings a month ago, I assume he meant "Fourth Drawer Down" and "Sulk" and the "Double Hipness" material which was previously licenced to V2, and that they'll probably be doing something with it. On the subject of watching Billy carry on as Associates after his departure, he did say that other than some of the songs on "Perhaps", he didn't really rate the post-"Sulk" output, and that it was clear by the "Wild and Lonely"-era videos that Billy's heart wasn't in it.

The Q+A was finished off with the playback of a recently made recording of the lost Associates song "The Twins of Gemini". Rankine said that they'd worked on it at the time, but never recorded it, finished the lyrics or properly performed it other than maybe accapella at parties. Apparently this version was only finished the night before, and features Steven Lindsay on vocals, Craig Armstrong on piano and Rankine on bass. Someone asked him later if it was getting a release, he said they'd maybe be doing some more work on it but that it was a possibility.

Got the chance to shake Rankine's hand on my way out, didn't really have much to say. He had a few signed, unplayed 12"s of "White Car in Germany" that he was handing out, got one of those.

There's a few clips of the Ronnie Scotts performance in 1984 in a kind of jazz trio arrangement, not sure how widely available that has been but it looked great - the sound quality was good and clear, it would be great to have the audio of that.

Both video and audio of the full show have circulated pretty widely at this point -- that blog link I put should have it.

Great report, glad you had a good time!

Ned, I suspected that the Ronnie Scotts stuff was out there, will have a look for that link.

The "Balgay Hill" play starts its run next week at Dundee Rep, work permitting I'll try and check that out. Don't expect much insightful critique of it though!

Odd news but hey -- two late period rarities featuring Billy have surfaced on YouTube courtesy of some bunch called Binary Music.

"Put This Right":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmjsDCaP6IM

"Deamanda":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxlWaM196ZQ

The first one apparently appeared on a cassette a while back but this is a far cleaner version -- it might be a track he did with Balcony -- while the second is more of a mystery. An Associates listmember who provided the earlier info also got a hold of Steve Aungle, his last regular collaborator, and he said he remembers the lyric -- apparently it's a tribute to Ms. Galas! -- but not working on the song. He also figures that the date is wrong since Billy died in January 1997, so maybe this was 1996.

Billy's last regular collaborator Steve Aungle has started a blog which will be dedicated to a series of posts about his life and times with the good man.

http://steveaungle.wordpress.com/billy-mackenzie/

This looks pretty promising thanks for the heads up. I just never get bored of finding out more about Billy. There seems to be an endless list of people who have great stories about him.

I think it's probably time to read The Glamour Chase again.

Really enjoying the blog. As much as I love the guy, he must have been a total nightmare to work with.

who couldn't love "party fears two"?

also "dogs in the wild".

I once read that the last 3 tracks on the second Radio One Sessions are, in fact, identical to the studio versions and not from the Phil Kennedy show as indicated. Can anyone confirm or deny? And if it's true, are the proper session versions floating around in the interwebs?

I'm looking for a few alternate version of tracks (as listed in a nice discography I've found). Can anyone help me out?

Straw Towels 5.24 (full length)
39, Lyon Street: Kites 4.46 (full length 12" version)
A Girl Named Property 5.25 (full length 12" version)
Q Quarters (original demo version) 5.04

Hmm, you should be able to find a clutch of them here:

http://whippetatthewheel.blogspot.com/

Thus, for instance:

On a more mundane note… and just before we all get over-excited… the version of “A Girl Named Property” on the original vinyl of “Fourth Drawer Down” (which claims to be 5.25 on the Sit 2 record label) is exactly the same length as the version which appears on the V2 re-issue (which comes in at 4.56). It is a 1981 labelling error so we can all calm down.

That site is a godsend for obsessives - thanks!! Finally, the TRUE version of "Club Country"!

It is pretty great -- I'd had a slew of these songs already (IIRC Sid's on the Associates list or just the general source of a lot of things over the years) but by ripping so many them at a lot higher quality than before = A+ approach.

And don't know if you noticed but the 39 Lyon Street "Kites" 12" version went up -- unless you were the one who prompted him to do that in the first place!

Enjoying a slew of live recordings today -- hearing "No" from a 1980 Marquee show makes for quite a different beast than it turned out to be, even with the lyrics pretty much unchanged.

i want to read more of this thread but listening to the group for the first time -- the album "fourth drawer down"

o_O

woah these guys are something...

i think i love it?

maybe?

A very good start there. And there's much more to discover.

this is intriguing, they don't really fit nicely into any sort of post-punk/new wave "box"...like too uh fancy to be in with the real post-punkers (elements remind me of ABC or stuff like that) but way too weird and arty to be New Pop or whatever

aside from i guess a vague roxy music vibe but even that's not quite right

You don't have the full story. The first LP, The Affectionate Punch, is more conventionally post-punk. It's a great album and it's arty and weird and baroque, but it sounds like a BAND and makes sense. The following album Sulk is more clearly new wave/new pop, though darker and gloomier. Fourth Drawer Down compiles a bunch of singles that came out inbetween. They're more experimental than either album, and I think more electronic. Not too far off from Sulk though.

But by the time of Sulk and them having "hits" with those singles, they were definitely grouped with new pop. Funny though if you compare the UK and US versions of Sulk, as the US version has the 18 Carrot Love Affair Single on instead of some of the darker stuff.

Oh, funny, I was just thinking of reviving this wonderful thread. Welcome to the land of The Associates! Some of us have been here from the start, others wandered in blindly over the years but know this - no one leaves. And my appreciation of the sheer uniqueness (and overused word when it comes to music but it really applies here) just deepens as time goes on. I was just listening to "Double Hipness" yesterday and shaking my head, both at what's there and what could have been had the reunion continued full-on.

yeah def very interested now, esp to check out stuff dan just posted about, i guess i'm kinda coming in at the end of the band it sounds like

Not at all -- very early on! The bandname essentially petered out much later in Mackenzie's career when he finally decided to let it go in favor of trading under his own name; the key partnership with Rankine did dissolve only after a few years together, though, so in terms of that you can say Fourth Drawer was essentially square in the middle.

No, you're near the middle of the beginning! After Sulk Alan Rankine left and Billy kept on for years with different producers and not as good results. Some people love that stuff, I certainly think there are some gems in there, but I definitely prefer the Rankine era.

ie what ned said

There is so much space for discovery in their songs and albums. They are all like majestic alien halls you can wander down forever. I have been on an Associates kick for months and it'll keep going because their songs are so expansive. I still haven't listened to any of the post-Rakine stuff.

Abbott, that is one of the best descriptions of them I've ever read. :-)

why have I not posted itt? jeeez

Thought I ought to mention that Tom Doyle's excellent Billy MacKenzie biog The Glamour Chase is due for reissue at the beginning of next month: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Glamour-Chase-Tom-Doyle/dp/1846972094/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1313487770&sr=8-1

Very cool indeed (and Bjork over Bono as the forward writer any day so hurrah for that; is that the only revision, though?).

I think there are some other revisions to the text but not major ones.

The bit at the end about the songs only now found in dusty second hand shops can now be thankfully updated, at least.

I still vividly remember the fist time I heard "White Car in Germany" in college. I'd checked out the LP from my college radio station's library, and I was listening on headphones in my dingy dorm room since my roommate was sleeping. It was definitely due to them being talked about on ILM, too. Those first few totally alien synth sludgenotes, that cough syrup tempo ("is this the wrong speed?"), the way it kind of zombily jerks into that stately melody, and then Mackenzie's unreal voice rising up out of it. It was a complete and total shock to the system, and unlike anything I'd ever encountered. Still gives me chills to think of that initial experience...

That's great that The Glamour Chase is being reissued, it's such a great read that totally made me fall in love with their music and Billy as a person.

Please forgive this long-winded post but Billy is my favourite singer ever and one of the few artists I get really carried away about.

I would say The Affectionate Punch, Sulk and Fourth Drawer Down are the absolute essentials. After that things get a little more tricky as there are plenty of amazing songs spread out over some really average albums.

Perhaps is mostly great, it's very polished and a lot more straight forward than the first three albums. Helicopter Helicopter and Schampout are the first songs he did that are just really bad. The second side is a lot stronger as it has Breakfast which is an incredible ballad with one of his best vocals. The Stranger In Your Voice has one of the best and most ridiculous string arrangements in a song I can think of. The Best of You might be my favourite track, would love to hear the version they did with Annie Lennox.

The Glamour Chase is mainly bland late 80's pop but it does contain Empires of the Heart which sounds like it should have been a Bond theme. The reissue with Perhaps on the other disc is worth having for some of the extra tracks, mainly Take Me To The Girl and The Rythm Divine which he did with Yello.

Wild & Lonely is his worst album, terrible production ruins some fairly good songs especially on Just Can't Say Goodbye, Fire to Ice and the title track. Some of the songs are just so half-baked, good production couldn't help them.

Outernational from 92 is a lot better but hardly essential. It was released as his first solo album but is really just the same as the previous three albums, Billy working with various session musicians. He was really obsessed with the dance music at the time so he tried to make an album in that style but of course the best song is the ballad, Baby. His vocal on that song is really stunning, it should have been a huge hit.

Beyond The Sun is an album of songs he had been working on in the last years of his life. This is easily his best album after the first three Associates albums. He was mainly into dance music again at this point but this is mainly full of beautiful ballads especially Nocturne VII which is a heartbreaking song. Give Me Time is yet another song that would have made a great Bond theme. Three Gypsies In a Restaurant is the only dud on the album, sadly that was the stuff Billy was into making at that time but he was never one to go for the safe choices with his material.

Eurocentric is another posthumous release. It's a good collection, a mix of dance songs and some more really moving ballads. The ballads are much more enjoyable. His version of Wild is the Wind is the highlight, but Liberty Lounge is a great 70's glam influenced gem.

The Radio One Sessions albums are both excellent. Party Fears 2 is my favourite song ever but the track A Severe Bout Of Career Insecurity is probably the song that sums up everything that was amazing about Billy as a performer. It sounds like he made the lyrics up as he went along and the way he says, "And It Goes To Show All You Want Is Above The Knee" is just Godlike. A lot of the other versions on here are really great to hear, the slow version of Take Me To The Girl in particular is very charming.

The Double Hipness coompilation is such an interesting mix of their material. The early demos are so odd and full of sax and bizarre lyrics. I still think The Cardiacs must have been taking notes from those songs. The slightly later demos are really good, showing how quickly they started writing great material. A lot of these ended up fleshed out on The Affectionate Punch but my personal favourite is Geese which is one of the simples and most catchy tunes they ever wrote. The second disc is also very mixed, there's some good stuff on there that he did with Alan Rankine but it sounds quite dated.

A few other tracks that are worth mentioning would be Pain In Any Language that he made with Apollo 440 in 1996, which is an epic electronic ballad. Ice Cream Factory released in 1982 as Ice Cream Factory Mackenzie Sings Orbidoig is another one-off single he did which is a really thrilling single. This is available on the Singles compilation put out a few years ago.

So as I said at the beginning of this rambling post: The essentials are The Affectionate Punch, Fourth Drawer Down, Sulk, both the BBC Radio One Sessions, Beyond The Sun, most of Perhaps and probably Double Hipness too. I would totally agree with the previous posts that there is so much to discover, buying their albums and singles was one of the most exciting periods of my life.

I have to disagree with Kitchen Person. I feel VERY strongly that , first: all of the songs on the ablum are top notch material. It's totally solid from a songwriting sense. While i feel the album was most definitely mis-produced overall I think Fire to Ice is on the best pop singles I"ve ever heard by any producer. Just a few listens on headphones and it becomes a relentless infection. Also the dissing of "Wild and Lonely" is unjust as well because it was the song i most immediately connected to on an emotional level. If one listens past the cheesy sequencing that seems to sit out front on most of the tracks, one hears Billy's exotic taste in soundscapes and also Billy's singing is sultry and very story-focused on this album . I would say it was the greatest album what I would say a little patience has rewarded me a lot on that album.

Lovely T-shirt for Billy MacKenzie devotees everywhere: http://www.redbubble.com/people/andrewnimmo/works/4189594-billy-mackenzie

They use American Apparel gear so nice cuts and feel. Mine got here (across the pond... in fact across a couple of ponds) in a matter of days.

Apparently based on a picture the photographer took of Billy in Dundee in 1985.

The Glamour Chase, a movie about Billy's life, is on youtube. So good!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI-LhDW9LzU&feature=relmfu

Yeah, great documentary. The book it's based on is excellent.

what's with the dog statues? didn't notice til the end. i didn't know much about mackenzie, but that was quite good. too bad about him and rakine. and him and his mom... it's unnerving that her death could destroy him that completely...

They're whippets, and as the doc shows, he loved them dogs.

Never seen the documentary before. Just watching it reminds me all the reasons why he's my favourite ever popstar. Some great footage and the use of Nocturne VII at the end is truly heartbreaking.

I need to sit down one of these days to watch that Glamour Chase doco.

Anyway, have been on a bit of an Associates Youtube binge lately and came across this vid of Billy performing "You Only Live Twice". Had no idea he covered this - so great!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhx9_rTsqk4

amusing bit at the end with Billy flirting outrageously with a very young, very smug-looking, obviously uncomfortable Jonathan Ross lol

I'll back up all the repping for the 'Glamour Chase' book upthread. I first read it 10 years ago just after first moving through to Dundee, was odd but nice reading a book that mentioned places I walked by every day - I lived a couple of streets from the Lyon Street flat, for example, and worked alongside people who'd known Billy to some extent.

Haven't seen if I still have my copy of the book. Not seen it in ages, and it may have been among a load of books stolen as I moved out of a place 10 years ago. Which means I should know one way or the other by now.
WAs interesting anyway, the beginning where he's wound up involved in the Howard Hughes case while travelling in the US. through the events surrounding the recording of the singles compiled on 4th Drawer Down etc etc very very good bio.

I think the lps have drifted out of print on cd again which is a major shame, the 00s reissues of Sulk, 4th Drawer Down & Affectionate Punch are all very worth getting hold of. I never got Double Hipness which i had meant to remedy but I don't think you can get it any more.

There was a compi video made of the band's tv appearances on the Yahoo list somewhere about 10 years ago that I wound up with a faulty copy of but should be good if you find a decent copy. I think bits of what's on it may be up on youtube anyway. Would like taht stuff in goood quality though. Wish somebody would release an official dvd compi with taht material on though.

& ALan Rankine is one half of the creative part of the band during the period that really counts. I think he's teaching at a Scottish university now.

Double Hipness is amazing.

Rankine teaches at Stow College, or did the last time I checked.

There was a showing of "The Glamour Chase" at the DCA in Dundee a couple of years back with a Q+A with Rankine (mentioned upthread), who mentioned that they'd just got the rights back to the recordings, not sure if all or just the early ones. No sign of anything happening with that though.

And just in case anyone is in the general vicinity of Dundee on Fri 10th May, a showing of The Glamour Chase to accompany the exhibition 'What Presence! The Rock Photography of Harry Papadopoulous' which will be running at the McMannus Galleries.

http://www.dundeecity.gov.uk/event/12937

I'm not one to believe in family curses or anything but what's happened to the Mackenzie family over the last fifteen years has been nothing short of wretched. After Billy's mother's death and then his suicide, his father passed on, I believe due to natural causes, but now three of his siblings have died due to accidents or other circumstances, the latest being a younger sister:

http://news.stv.tv/tayside/228944-associates-star-billy-mackenzies-sister-dies-in-flat-plunge/

I mean this is just awful.

That is terrible.

I found a cheap copy of the Glamour Chase recently in a charity shop. Glad I got it since I wasn't sure if I still had the other copy. & now reading this thread I already wasn't sure if I still had it whenever that was. & don't remember seeing it since.

Think this copy has a different sleeve too. Though I can't recall what the other one was like exactly.

For some reason 'Bap De La Bap' appeared in my head this morning and hasn't left it all day!

Just seeing the words Bap De La Bap on a screen make me want to put on that album right this second.

HOW DOES AN ANTELOPE FEEL WHEN IT'S GETTING CHASED!? THE SAME AS A MAN WITH A GEIGER POINTING IN HIS FACE!!

I've been bingeing so hard on Sulk over the last couple of days, that voice mixed with those songs and that production. Sublime, man.

Z IS THE BLACK SHEEP OF THE ALPHABET! Z IS THE MASCULIIIIIINE LETTEEEEEEER!

Why didn't MacKenzie and Martha Ladly have money thrown at them for the sake of hosting a variety program? Cripes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtHEYW23f6Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTXquAe25vI

Ladly is even more badass now than she was then:

http://womenandtech.com/interview/martha-ladly/

Wow, thanks for that interview link!

I could watch those performances all day.

18 years since Billy died today.

You'd think someone in the middle of The Glamour Chase and a major Associates binge would be aware of that date! Coincidental bump.

Is "Voluntary Wishes, Swap It Production" a throwaway? It would have fit on the Sulk reissue.

Been going around in the context of the other groups he played with/for but John Murphy, who drummed for the band on the Fourth Drawer Down singles and the Sulk sessions, recently passed on. Almost a secret weapon of the band during that time, at once frenetic and capable of a focused discipline:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGQkmIYLmsA

Sad news :( RIP.

The drumming has always been one of my favourite things about Sulk. I've always loved the way that the drum parts, particularly when he comes in for a fill, seem to teeter on the brink of falling apart entirely only for it to pull back at precisely the right moment.

He was fired during the sessions but I can't say I've been able to tell any difference -- possibly they just kept all his tracks and ran with it. And that's a great description of his work -- "Kitchen Person" also being a prime example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRZKUDXngqw

Deluxe reissues of the first three albums coming on May 6th.

does that mean a complete edition of the uk/usa mix-n-match versions of Sulk ?

Fantastic, you got any idea of tracklisting. & how deluxe these are going to be? The early 00ies cds were about dopuble in length with bonus tracks. But I keep thinking of Deluxe as 2cd possibly because the cds labelled Deluxe over teh last decade have been that.
& is 1st 3 Affectionate Punch, Sulk and 4th Drawer Down last of which is also a singles compilation.
DO hope other material follows including a comprehensive Rankine era Peel/BBC sessions set.
& a dvd would be welcome too.

I haven't seen the track listing yet so I'm not sure. I hope there's enough stuff on there so I can justify buying them. I've just offered to review them on the site I write for. I've only just got over the emotion of doing the Earl Brutus ones, this may all be too much for me.

Tracklistings here: http://www.superdeluxeedition.com/news/associates-two-cd-deluxe-editions/

As far as I can tell, here's what's new to CD if you already have the 2000 CD reissues:
The Affectionate Punch: Schmoltz / Would I Bounce Back (remix) / A (remix) - unless this is the single version / Amused As Always (remix) / The Affectionate Punch (remix)
Fourth Drawer Down: The Tree That Never Sang / Straw Towels (demo) / Q Quarters (demo)
Sulk: Club Country - if it's the original LP version / Club Country 12" / Party Fears Two (inst) / Skipping (alt) / Me, Myself And The Tragic Story - if it's a studio take and not the Peel session
Very Best Of: Eloise / Jukebox Bucharest

Couldn't they have put both versions of the 1st album together on one release? I've never heard the 2nd version.

Did they remix "The Affectionate Punch" entirely, or just some tracks? Is it possible the 4 remixes I noted above were the only changes?

I thought it was the entire album, and a lot more than remixed too. But I've never heard it, so I don't actually know.

They remixed the whole album. I tried to listen to it again last year and couldn't make it through the whole album. It's so bad.

I was hoping that 'The Affectionate Punch' would contain both versions, for completeness. I have the 2005 re-issue of the original on CD, which is my preferred one. I have the remix on vinyl but haven't listened to it in ages.

I recall the mixes being quite different but it's been a long time. Blown away by a borrowed cassette version first, then disappointed and underwhelmed by the CD reissue several years.

I did end up veyy much enjoying the CD, though

I got 'Even Dogs In The Wild' stuck in my head while reading all this talk about The Affectionate Punch and now I'm going to have to listen to that album immediately. Sulk is the one that always seems to get talked about, and deservedly so as it's a phenomenal record, but The Affectionate Punch is such a great collection of songs.

May you forever rest in peace, Billy, you wonderful bastard.

The remixes took a lot of the guitars out and replaced them with keyboards, not very good ones. I probably hadn't heard the remix version in over 10 years when I put it on last year. I was shocked by how much I disliked it. When I really got into them in 2000, I could only find the remix version so that's the one I knew for at least a year. I enjoyed it but then I found the original version at a record fair for 50p (my best find ever) which blew the remixes away. The guitars on the record sounded amazing and suited the songs so much better. I think it was A and Would I.. Bounce Back that sounded the most different.

Agree with you there Turrican, Sulk is their masterpiece but The Affectionate Punch is an incredible album too. Both 10/10 records for me.

I have a real soft spot for 'Perhaps'..."Breakfast" is just a lovely thing...

I think the Rankine years are the apex.
& his guitar is really krautrocky.
I wonder what reason was given at the time for the extensive AP remix?

Buying that daft remix version put me off getting into Associates properly for many years.

Wonder if that remixed version of Tell Me Easter's On Sunday will be going on the best of. Somehow I suspect it won't.

First album is my favourite fwiw.

I think the success of the Sulk singles made someone think it was a good idea to turn AP into a synthpop "new pop" album instead of a "post-punk" album.

They didn't like the production on the 1st album, and basically just didn't like the album in general, I think that's what it was really about.

They had that weird anti-cymbals thing going on which was briefly popular and seemingly applied that to the remix version

I think the success of the Sulk singles made someone think it was a good idea to turn AP into a synthpop "new pop" album instead of a "post-punk" album.
― dan selzer,

Yeah, this is about right. Billy and Alan disowned it pretty quickly. It's sad to think it was the only version available on CD until the CD reissue in 2004.

I have a real soft spot for 'Perhaps'..."Breakfast" is just a lovely thing...

― X-Prince Protégé (sonnyboy)

Breakfast is so gorgeous with one of my favourite Billy vocals ever. Perhaps is a step down from Sulk but still a really great album. The second in particular is very strong. Always loved The Best Of You. It's a shame Helicopter Helicopter spoils that first half.

Perhaps is my favourite Associates album. I find it quite weird it is considered to be a flawed effort

Perhaps benefits greatly from having Martin Rushent behind the desk.

Watching that performance of "You Only Live Twice" upthread, and being a fan of "The Rhythm Divine," I am thinking how amazing a record of Billy singing Bond songs would've been. I mean, man.

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOP!

I have to say that song has been driving me NUTS. My car's connection to my iPhone can be buggy. Firstly, whenever I plug the phone in, it immediately starts playing the first song on my phone, which used to be some unlistenable Aphex Twin thing, but is now "A" by the Associates. Then the bugginess causes it to start, play the first verse, then start again, over and over again. It drives us crazy.

I liked the song before that though.

I love 'A', it demonstrates that Billy can sing something as mundane as the alphabet in that golden voice of his and have it come out amazingly, but even my patience would be tested by having to listen to it like that!

Watching that performance of "You Only Live Twice" upthread, and being a fan of "The Rhythm Divine," I am thinking how amazing a record of Billy singing Bond songs would've been. I mean, man.

― Naive Teen Idol,

Always thought Give Me Time from Beyond The Sun was his best attempt at a Bond theme.

Listening to The Affectionate Punch last night I fell in love all over again with the way the guitar just comes bursting in on 'Paper House', such a great bit of playing.

I've just put it on. Paper House could well be my favourite song on here. Always loved how pretty the guitars are on Logan Time too.

One of my favourite memories of this album is from Jonathan Ross' radio show back in 2006. He had Yeah Yeah Yeahs in to promote Show Your Bones. He somehow got on to the topic of Billy Mackenzie/Associates when interviewing them and couldn't believe they'd never heard of them. He sounded really excited to play an Associates track for them. He then went and played Transport To Central. It was such an awesome and bizarre moment hearing such a bleak song like that on Radio 2 on a Saturday morning. I don't remember Yeah Yeah Yeahs reactions now, I don't think they were that excited by it. Probably the coolest thing I've ever heard Jonathan Ross do.

i don't know if anyone but billy could sing the phrase "i don't know whether to over or underestimate you", let alone make it catchy. seems like an insanely hard thing to sing.. to fit all the syllables in and still have it be soulful, let alone intelligible.

Hahaha, I didn't know about that! I love those jagged guitar chords in 'Transport To Central'... there's some great guitar work throughout the whole album, actually. I've got 'Deeply Concerned' lodged in my head now, think it may be time for yet another listen. I'm glad that we're not talking about Sulk for once, even though I love that record!

(x-post to KP)

Oh god, yeah, that chorus from 'A Matter of Gender' is such an earworm!

Always been a really big fan of of the B-side, You Were Young. It's as good as anything on The Affectionate Punch.

Agree about A Matter of Gender. Another AP highlight. There isn't a weak song on there really.

Hello.

In May 1982 the French TV presenter Alain Maneval came to London to film The Associates for his show Megahertz. The band performed ‘Party Fears Two’ and ‘Club Country’ at the Kensington Roof Gardens, London. The show was broadcast and the tapes disappeared into a French film archive. They are now available for the first time in 34 years

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ww2AYxrPqkk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i38fCDsrKIg

Nice!

<3 Billy

Just wonderful. I could spend ages watching Billy performances like that. What a man!

20 years since Billy died today. Definitely going to be playing some of his/their stuff loud today.

Me too. Not that I need any excuse to listen to this band!

Will line 'Sulk' up next. Twenty years!

I'm on a bit of Nude Spoons right now.

The closing massed choir vocal on "Party Fears Two" is one of the most spine tingling moments in music ever

Indeed. The song is already incredible but that last minute takes it up to another level. My favourite song of all time.

Speaking of spine tingling moments, I got a nice surprise when I went into one of my local record shops on Friday and found they'd reissued Beyond The Sun on vinyl. I had no idea it was coming out again. I was so happy to see his handsome face on the new releases stand. It was only $14 too which is an absolute bargain. I played it yesterday and it still sounded so great. The last minute of Nocturne VII rivals that last part of Party Fears Two for the most moving end to a song ever.

Incredible song kitchen person, never heard it. He's truly a singular talent

4th Drawer Down is all good though innit? Or is that an alternative version or rerecording.

'Arrogance Gave Him Up' into 'No' is such a bizarre track ordering decision if you think about it, opening the album with this peppy instrumental and then directly into possibly the darkest song on the LP, but it really works. Everything on Sulk sounds so well recorded and sparkly while the playing - particularly the drumming - is often idiosyncratic, with those always unique vocals taking it over the top. It's a great musical brew. Great band. The drums on 'Bap De La Bap' remains one of those "how the hell did they think of that?" moments.

Per the Doyle bio of Billy, "Arrogance" acts as a curtain raiser for the album -- you're getting a full show, compere and all.

Does anyone on this site dislike this band

Incredible song kitchen person, never heard it. He's truly a singular talent

― Unchanging Window (Ross)

Glad you enjoyed it. Beyond The Sun is a gorgeous record.

xxp yeah "arrogance" and the "Nothinginsomethingparticular" are the intro/exit themes

i can't imagine where else i'd put "no", might kill the momentum to have it in the midst of the other tracks that are so much faster

"If you weren't into Led Zeppelin and... what's that other horrible band? Genesis!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAqYmTH6REE

Billy's voice on 'No' is just pure ear candy.

21 years ago today.

Don't think I'd mentioned it here before -- could be wrong -- but I'll be presenting on Billy at the Pop Con this year. Here's a quick description:

http://nedraggett.tumblr.com/post/168682900002/so-my-proposal-for-the-2018-pop-conference-has

The clip above set me off on a minor YouTube crawl and a documentary in which his dad suggests he should have been a vet not a pop-star. I have to confess to having had a chuckle.

That must be _The Glamour Chase_ doc -- essential viewing, still.

Yup.

So here's my presentation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oR4vXvcSUQ

Really looking forward to this.

So there's a reissue of Perhaps due late January on Cherry Red -- an expansion of what ended up as that somewhat barebones two-fer CD release with The Glamour Chase, but this time strictly Perhaps-era material itself. Nothing unreleased, but pretty much every last variant and B-side and the like finally in one place:

--

Disc One: Perhaps + Bonus Tracks
1. Those First Impressions
2. Waiting For The Loveboat
3. Perhaps (Dave Allen Remix)
4. Schampout
5. Helicopter Helicopter
6. Breakfast
7. Thirteen Feelings
8. The Stranger In Your Voice
9. The Best Of You
(Billy Mackenzie & Dave Allan Remix)
10. Don’t Give Me That I Told You So Look
11. Perhaps (Instrumental) (Bonus Track) *
12. Breakfast Alone (Instrumental) (Bonus Track) *
13. Thirteen Feelings (Instrumental) (Bonus Track) *
14. The Stranger In Your Voice (Instrumental) (Bonus Track) *

Disc Two: Bonus Tracks
1. Those First Impressions (Extended Version) *
2. Waiting For The Loveboat (Single Version)
3. Waiting For The Loveboat (Extended Version) *
4. Waiting For The Loveboat (Slight Return)
5. Perhaps Perhaps *
6. Schampout (Edit) *
7. Breakfast (Single Version)
8. Breakfast (Edit)
9. Kites
10. Take Me To The Girl (Single Version)
11. Take Me To The Girl (12” Mix) *
12. Take Me To The Girl (Instrumental) *
13. The Girl That Took Me *

(Asterisk means first time on CD.)

What's missing if we're talking this time frame is the Ronnie Scott gig, which at least is readily floating around on YouTube etc., but it would be nice to finally get a formal release of that (audio and video of course).

So anyway, here's my review of said reissue:

https://thequietus.com/articles/27807-associates-perhaps-review-reissue

Great review, Ned.

I picked up the new reissue and one of the things that struck me was how long the core album is - nearly an hour for ten songs! Previously only had it on vinyl and hadn’t realised.

It’s a good record, but sometimes I think the story of ‘Perhaps’ is maybe the most interesting thing about it.

Yeah, agreed; there's tracks I'll always love but the backstory really says it all. If the album were more famous I think the making of it would be more known, but it's almost like Billy was just not-quite-famous enough for that backstory to truly get attention; at least we have the Doyle book and these liner notes. I've got a slew of tracks from the sessions floating around, including the original take on "The Best of You" with Gina X, which is miles better than Eddi Reader's.

I read about the seemingly farcical Perhaps in The Glamour Chase book about 15 years before hearing the album, full expecting it to be something of a car crash yet it is hands down the album I love the most

I'd have to agree, Paul. Read 'The Glamour Chase' around the time of that 'Perhaps/Glamour Chase' double but never bought it (skint student), assumed both would be very patchy. Only finally heard 'Perhaps' a few years ago and was surprised that it actually holds together pretty well. Reading the story of its fractured and protracted creation before hearing it maybe puts a bit too much baggage on it.

On the other hand I remember The Glamour Chase (album) as being a horribly dated and bland Curiosity Killed The Cat/Brother Beyond-esque affair. Might have to reinvestigate to see if that was a harsh analysis

I've always felt the Perhaps songs found on "The Radio One Sessions" (Helicopter Helicopter, Theme From Perhaps, Perhaps (Schizophrenic Version), Don't Give Me That I Told You So Look, Breakfast, Take Me To The Girl) are the best versions.

Yeah I think there's a good album in the Perhaps material, I just don't think Perhaps itself is that album. Also if Billy had just gone solo in name earlier I think it would stand out a little more in immediate comparison to Sulk, but I understand why he held onto it for a long while.

As for the version of Glamour Chase that eventually surfaced, it does have an advantage by adding on the Yello collaboration "Snowball" as well as "Take Me To the Girl" and "Heaven's Blue," none of which were on the original promo tape that circulated, but yeah a good chunk of it just doesn't work -- and to a degree that afflicts Wild and Lonely as well. It's just kinda weird to me to a degree because all the work with Yello pretty readily showed *how* he could have taken a pop-friendly version of their work as a throughline during the late 80s (especially since they all had a hit as songwriters with "The Rhythm Divine" for Shirley Bassey), and the album still also has "Country Boy," which is easily one of his most inspired collaborations and is truly strange and unique, yet still recorded some dreck. Maybe he just figured it would keep WEA happy.

Helicopter Helicopter and Schampout are the songs I'd happily lose on Perhaps. I still love the album despite those flaws. When I first got the album, I was obsessed with the second half and would often just play that side of my vinyl copy. I'm still in awe of that ridiculous string arrangement on The Stranger In Your Voice and Breakfast should have been a number one single.

I mostly agree on the assessment of The Glamour Chase. Despite Billy obviously playing it safe on those last few Associates albums, I love that he still did things like Country Boy. As you say Ned, it's a truly bizarre choice that seems like a rare flash of inspiration from Billy at that point. Empires Of Your Heart is the standout on there. I still think it's one of Billy's most stunning moments.

Funnily enough, I just played Outernational the other day probably for the first time in 10 years. I was surprised how much I enjoyed it. Definitely a step up from Wild & Lonely -- an album I try not to think about too much. Baby should have been a hit.

If Adele recorded Baby it would probably end up being her biggest and most inescapable hit

Sharing a tweet of mine to share a screenshot:

Learned today that Cherry Red's getting out a reissue/recompilation of Billy Mackenzie's later solo material in the offing. Works for me! pic.twitter.com/HzOS9bE1lF

— Ned Raggett (@NedRaggett) December 29, 2021

Awesome, I’ve wanted to hear those in full for a while.

And here's the preorder link for it

https://www.cherryred.co.uk/product/billy-mackenzie-satellite-life-satellite-life-recordings-1995-1996-3cd

Woah, that looks fantastic! I've wanted to hear McArthur’s Son ever since I read The Glamour Chase 20 plus years ago. He makes it sound great.

sund4r being very extremely wrong abt the associates has an upside: i have been listening to them all day

my theory which is mine: they slid a little out of institutional memory bcz they didn't generate much good writing (morley's is mostly the fizz of his high enthusiasm and plus no great music writer is patchier anyway lol) and they didn't generate much good writing bcz they're very hard to write about -- and *that's a mark of how good they are*

i don't think musicality is ineffable but i do think it's highly evasive and that we often write abt anything but (even when it looks like we're doing striahgt-up musicology) and musicians that slip this leash are worth paying attention to precisely bcz of the challenge they present

thread that garnered few non-baffled responses lol:
Can a music matter if its fans don't especially want to read about it?

i'll have a drink and then not phone my brother up

bap de la bap!

The first two records are a good example of how baffling experiencing them in real time must have been. Can’t think of a stylistic evolution quite like going from The Affectionate Punch to the Fourth Drawer Down singles to Sulk in only two years. And they are all magnificent!

I love Perhaps but McKenzie and Rankine were a real team.

Paperhouse haunts me, such a beautiful tune. Love Billy’s scat breakdown at the end, lest it get too majestic.

sund4r being very extremely wrong abt the associates has an upside: i have been listening to them all day

Excellent approach. And yeah, very hard to write about. I've done my best over time but it's hard to approach the ineffable, really.

"my theory which is mine: they slid a little out of institutional memory bcz they didn't generate much good writing (morley's is mostly the fizz of his high enthusiasm and plus no great music writer is patchier anyway lol) and they didn't generate much good writing bcz they're very hard to write about -- and *that's a mark of how good they are*"

The second part is a very good point. I grew up listening to a lot of music that simply wasn't written about, because what was there to say about it? How could the typical NME / Melody Maker writer cover Lifeforms or 76:14? What would they say? "It sounds good and I like the noises". A bit of Googling suggests that Melody Maker really liked 76:13, but my hunch is that whatever coverage it had was dwarfed, utterly dwarfed - that's not offensive, by the way - dwarfed by the same newspaper's coverage of Martin Rossiter, because he was good for a quote and his lyrics could be unpicked. He worked on the page.

But I disagree with the first point, because I don't think pop music writing really translates into a legacy. Viz Martin Rossiter, who isn't written about nowadays. There has to be at least a couple of crowd-pleasing hits. Bands develop a legacy because their music catches the ear of people on the radio and before long "Weather With You" and "Somewhere in My Heart" are radio staples, because they're crowd-pleasing hits. Or alternatively they develop a following on YouTube.

The Associates' problem is that they had a particular style. Their songs have a swoopy, almost jazzy feel. They don't have punchy, simple melodies, they feel tailored for McKenzie's voice, so they swoop. That's the best word I can think of. Their singles (I'm not familiar with the albums) have swoopy, meandering melodies, which is great because it's unexpected but doesn't lend itself to penetrating people's skulls.

Alan Rankine did a really good C86 show interview a few months back

Can I point out here that the Associates did actually have hit singles. And "Sulk" was a Top 10 album.

Despite everything that's ever been written, Perhaps is a blindingly good album

I started listening to The Associates because of sreynolds' Rip It Up and Start Again, but I don't remember what he wrote there that made them sound so compelling.

Lol, glad to inspire a revive. Tbf I only heard one song once in the context of a thread about a different band.

Go & Listen to the first 3 lps . Especially the 2nd 2 I think.
Sulk is so great, 4th Drawer Down hangs together pretty well for a compilation of singles tracks.
& the first one is pretty fantastic too. Just difficult to rival Sulk cos that is something else.
& everything got expanded a couple of years ago.

But there are Van der Graaf records.

I always flick between Sulk and Fourth Drawer Down as favourite. And seemingly so does everyone I know.

I prefer the first album but, then, you don't know me.

arent you tom d of ilx?

That's just a nasty rumour.

First album is amazing, it arouses emotions in me that I didn’t know I had.

Associates are not so far from a glam/post-punk Peter Hammill/VDGG - complex melodies, dramatic vocals, harsh textures, creating a "sound-world" as much as a band performance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0Hccc3xqeA

What I said in another thread about Killing Joke combining sardonic attitude with hysteria applies to this band too, with an extra dash of camp.

I think my favorite moment of theirs may be the close to Skipping where Rankine is playing that glacial roller rink synthesizer line and Billy just starts belting out “SKIP SKIP/SKIP SKIP SKIP /SKIP SKIP/SKIP SKIP SKIP /SKIPPING!?!?” It literally gives me chills.

The four chords they repeat at the end of the song are like a stairway rising up into nowhere.

Cleaning house to The Affectionate Punch🧼🕺

cleaning Paper House?

Don't forget to clean the mattress downstairs full of brown peppered holes.

Cleaning house to _The Affectionate Punch_🧼🕺

wrong album obv, and also just an affectionate punch

Don't forget to tidy up the fourth drawer down.

Amused as always by y'all ❤️

After all the cleaning, you'll be sweaty and dirty so you'll have a shower...

zed is the black sheep of the alphabet.

wait am I doing this right?

Are you cleaning your property girl?

Just read that Alan Rankine died yesterday.

Yeah, news spreading rapidly. A damn shame, too young and he was such a vocal supporter of the band’s legacy and Billy’s genius. So strange to think that the remaining core musicians that created _Sullk_ are Michael Dempsey and Martha Ladly.

On FB a few years ago, there were some whisperings that he and Dempsey were considering a tour with another singer, possibly David McAlmont. Clearly nothing came of it, but I would have been OK with checking it out.

It would have made a lovely tribute show, and McAlmont did work with Mackenzie in the years before the latter's passing. Ah well.

Oh fuck no! RIP Alan, thanks for the beautiful music

RIP Alan Rankine, creator of amongst the most joyous magnificent pop music of all time.

No Associates = No Ladytron.

💔https://t.co/lLujdh3ucf

— Ladytron (@LadytronMusic) January 3, 2023

very, very sad news. lots of people i know locally were taught by him and all, without exception, found him an incredibly inspiring human being. he'd really go above and beyond to help people out.

I heard a couple of pretty great podcast interviews with Rankine a few months ago. I think this was one of them, think there was at least one other
https://open.spotify.com/episode/2NHxKyjHbAevQBWjFpy1Y6?si=1f287889b2e54345

would have been great to get a memoir from him.

Did love his instrument playing on the Associates material. Wish there was more elsewhere, not sure if his solo material was anywhere near as good. He seemed to touch on Krautrock among a number of other things in the textures on that Associates stuff anyway

would have been great to get a memoir from him.

he was quite often a 'talking head' on scottish televsion music programmes and always had the best stories.

he was also such a phenomenal producer and i wonder if he was the first person in the world ever to distort an 808 kick drum?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnHaXrjjWEQ

as much as i loved billy's voice, their eponymous instrumental was always a favourite of mine. what a great chuggy groove:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtC8zVAsJa8

yes! so great! one of my fave 12"s ever.

Having only discovered the Associates and Billy McKenzie a few years ago (one of those, why didn’t I discover them sooner things) this is sad. Rankine and McKenzie were such a great team.

Hey, never too late to realize how great they were.

I only discovered them a few years ago on a documentary about 80s scottish music. Sulk is by far my favorite thing by them and I really wish it could have kept going with that lineup. Will watch the Glamour Chase documentary soon and hope I can track down his solo albums someday.

Do they appear in the recent book Hungry Beat oral history thing on Scottish independent music. Presumably must do. I think the Pop Group do but had a very short look at the book.

Very briefly.

BA Robertson is so fucking weird.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhM-nO4Yjjw