2019 Rock & Roll Hall of Fame Nominees

Here's the list:

Pat Benatar
Dave Matthews Band
Depeche Mode
The Doobie Brothers
Whitney Houston
Judas Priest
Kraftwerk
Motörhead
Nine Inch Nails
The Notorious B.I.G.
Rufus featuring Chaka Khan
Todd Rundgren
Soundgarden
T. Rex
Thin Lizzy

I've already voted for Depeche Mode, Judas Priest, Kraftwerk and Nine Inch Nails in previous years, so I'll probably vote for all of them again, and then Motörhead, obviously. If I wind up not voting for any of those first four, my runners-up are the Doobie Brothers and Soundgarden.

idk how you can have something called the rock and roll hall of fame and not include thin lizzy, t. rex, and judas priest

Subjectively, Todd Rundgren, and, to a degree, T. Rex (though they make more sense in a British Rock and Roll HOF--they weren't nearly as iconic over here).

Objectively: probably Kraftwerk for sure, Rundgren, and I can see reasonable arguments--usually around either commercial success or influence--for Whitney Houston, Motorhead, and maybe even the Notorious B.I.G. (although he wasn't around very long). I'm not that big on Rufus/Chaka Khan, although most people think they should be in. At least one or two or three of those strike me as silly; no need saying which ones, because someone will take offense.

One third of those nominees aren't even rock music.

True of a few inductees (Leonard Cohen, James Taylor, etc.). I've always said it should more properly be named The Musical-Artists-Embraced-by-the-Rock-and-Roll-Audience (Whether or Not They Actually Play Rock and Roll) Hall of Fame. But that's too many words, and people will think Alanis Morissette was in charge of naming it.

think it's now "rock" as in "rock & pop" as in "not classical or jazz" at this point.

They’ve always included blues and R&B artists. Now they’re including rap.

As I've said many times, they mean "rock 'n' roll" in the marketing-concept-meeting sense - "This new line of sneakers has that rock 'n' roll attitude our customer base has expressed a preference for in every survey." So rap, certain "edgy" country, electronic music within reason, Miles Davis, etc., etc.

It was never callled the "Rock Hall of Fame" tbf. Based on the artists who were inducted in the first year, it's not at all clear to me that Judas Priest is a more obvious descendent of those than Whitney Houston or maybe even Notorious B.I.G. xps

As I've said many times, they mean "rock 'n' roll" in the marketing-concept-meeting sense - "This new line of sneakers has that rock 'n' roll attitude our customer base has expressed a preference for in every survey." So rap, certain "edgy" country, electronic music within reason, Miles Davis, etc., etc.

They’ve always included blues and R&B artists. Now they’re including rap.

"The Postwar English-Language Popular Music Hall of Fame"?

Before we get into further discussions, can I just add that the rock & roll hall of fame was, is and always will be an irredeemably shit idea, and it should be bulldozed and never spoken of again?

Dave Matthews Band : Name Your Reasons Why They Are So Halled & Famed.

I don't know, I think they're less into honoring genocide denial than the Nobel committee.

Dave Matthews Band is gonna sail in tbh.

[xp] Yes but that won't stop me and others from being pissed when bands who deserve it are repeatedly rebuffed.

I don't think you can define it in a way that would satisfy anyone, Tuomas. Madonna is not rock and roll for some, for others she's the very definition.

Instead of announcing the nominees, they should just put out a press release that says, "We dipshittedly did not nominate Link Wray again this year."

Also, this may finally be Rufus's year.

And electronic music, apparently.

― Tuomas, Tuesday, 15 October 2019 13:52 (twenty-five minutes ago) link

i'll believe it when i see an electronic act actually get in

LOL @ DMB

I’m pretty catholic when it comes to RRHOF noms, but c’mon

Missing from the list in the first post: the MC5, who were actually nominated (again) this year.

https://www.npr.org/2019/10/15/770246693/whitney-houston-notorious-b-i-g-among-16-nominees-for-rock-roll-hall-of-fame

I'm right on the fence with them both subjectively and objectively: love Back in the USA, not the other two albums; I think they're important on the punk timeline, but not as important as the Velvet Underground or the Stooges (or the New York Dolls, for that matter).

If Bon Jovi, Journey, and Def Leppard are in, Pat Benatar should join them this year. People forget how many big hits she had in the 80s, and they still sound great.

Wtf is this shit.

I'm right on the fence with them both subjectively and objectively: love Back in the USA, not the other two albums; I think they're important on the punk timeline, but not as important as the Velvet Underground or the Stooges (or the New York Dolls, for that matter).

― clemenza, Tuesday, October 15, 2019 11:51 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

I'm honestly surprised -- even given how long and how rapidly the crapulence of the HoF has been on the rise -- that the 5 didn't get in earlier. They're easily as influential and important as the Velvets and Stooges, and were a big influence on the Dolls (and the Stooges, for that matter).

I agree, the exclusion of the MC5 does seem really weird. They mostly sucked, but they were inarguably influential. (Just like the Velvet Underground!) I'd like to see Grand Funk Railroad get in before them, but that's never happening.

I don't agree with the others but wouldn't put up too energetic an argument; the Velvet Underground, though, I don't think that's even close. You can't exactly quantify influence, but except for the Beatles and Dylan and James Brown, I'd say the VU stand alone.

The desire for more genre inclusion may be laudable, even well-intentioned. But as time goes by, I suspect hof noms will increasingly mine the same fairly limited pool of old material until insignificance.

People keep making music, of course, but there is no way to magically cause more music to have been made in 1964 or 1978 or 1985. Music history is a deep well but it is not inexhaustible.

So I will darkly enjoy watching this thread deteriorate as ppl discuss the relative merits of Fastball and Tiffany and Third Eye Blind

Foo Fighters are eligible next year?

They seem to be doing a fairly good job of keeping up with the times, not sure why they'd confine themselves to old material?

morrisp they don't confine themselves, no, but to me it looks like they try to pull something from Bucket A, something from Bucket B, something from Bucket C.

"O wait we need a neglected influential person who died in poverty and deserves long-overdue recognition"

"O wait we need a 70s metal act to make up for the years we snubbed metal"

"O wait we need an OG rap act to make up for the years we snubbed rap"

"O wait we need to recognize a disco diva to make up for rock's appalling history of misogyny and racism and homophobia"

"O wait we need a jam band or else we'll lose that audience segment"

"O wait we haven't gotten any synthpop in there yet"

Eventually it will all have to either (a) compress into only a very narrow range of eligibility, or (b) run out of good choices for every possible bucket.

I was very sad when the Doobie Brothers died in poverty. (I think your analysis is pretty accurate, YMP.)

T. Rex! Didn't think anyone so purely British would get in (only four Top 100 singles in the States, only one Top 10)--good job.

(Nine Inch Nails and the Doobie Brothers--kind of ridiculous.)

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/nine-inch-nails-notorious-big-whitney-houston-rock-hall-of-fame-937737/?fbclid=IwAR29TD0nirK884REeAlrGbmuvUlC35XZzwusQo62g43-spq5Z-L0bPoZGIE

Doobie Brothers give me a break

Pretty sure the HOF reasoned "If Soundgarden can't even beat Pavement in an ILM, we sure as hell can't let 'em in here."

*ILM poll

Nine Inch Nails making it over Kraftwerk is sort of incredible peak HoF cluelessness

better NIN than scraping even further down the 70s-80s barrel (the doobies at least have a couple of jams)

NIN totally deserve it, and them making it in before Kraftwerk, while wrong, is no worse than Depeche Mode doing the same this year.

idk how you can have something called the rock and roll hall of fame and not include thin lizzy, t. rex, and judas priest

― flopsy bird (voodoo chili), Tuesday, October 15, 2019 8:27 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink

1/3 ain't great, but ain;t bad

NIN totally deserve it, and them making it in before Kraftwerk, while wrong, is no worse than Depeche Mode doing the same this year.

Agree, also have a hard time getting worked up about the more famous band making it into a Hall of Fame.

Doobie Brothers are more than deserving. Pete Townshend put it best...

“I’ll tell you who gets a good sound in the studio,” Pete Townshend of the Who once told a reporter, “The Doobie Brothers. Their songs seem to just pop out of the radio speakers and grab at you.”

Now they need to get Pat Benetar in. People do not remember just how many hits she had. Far more than Stevie Nicks.

Still very surprised Motorhead aren't in - they're pretty much the definition of a rock & roll band.

(along with AC/DC and the Ramones)

xpost I think there was some pushback because she didn't write or play on any of those hits, and she is not that great of a singer.

I'm sorry, what

imo. I like her fine, but I don't think she's as distinctive as Joan Jett or Stevie Nicks, for example.

If there’s a surprise in this year’s group of inductees it is that just one of the artists chosen — the Doobie Brothers — reached the top five of the hall’s fan voting. The other most popular nominees were the Dave Matthews Band, which logged just over 1 million fan votes followed by Pat Benatar (882,000 votes), the Doobies (nearly 785,000), Soundgarden (just under 723,000) and Judas Priest (675,000).

xpost I'm not worked up I'm just complaining about the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame on a thread that consists of nothing but

I mean, there's a big caveat with all this bullshit that apparently everyone will eventually get in. Someone much smarter than me can probably write a mathematical formula determining with some degree of accuracy at what point literally every act will be in the Rock Hall. Like, if x=y+ time divided by r, then Nickelback will be in by 2051 or something.

I concede I understand why Motorhead might not make it in any time soon. Lemmy (and by extension the band) is absolutely iconic, but unlike a band like AC/DC or the Ramones or even Judas Priest, I don't think many people know much more than "Ace of Spades" (tbh I know I don't, and I've saw the band live a few times!). Motorhead might be more like the MC5, where the *idea* of the band is greater than the sum of its parts?

I think a big problem with the MC5 is they didn't spin off an Iggy or Lou Reed to keep the legend going.

one would think that Dave Marsh would have thrown his weight around for the Five, but he is no longer on the nominating committee. And one cannot stress enough that having management with juice is of enormous import; the Doobies are managed by Azoff. It means something for Doobies bottom line to be in the Hall, as it does for say, Chicago; whereas I don't think that the estates of Whitney or Christopher Wallace could be that concerned.

this website is very useful for tea leaf reading… https://futurerocklegends.com/

im not mad at them ignoring the fan vote tbh, there needs to be at least a little bit of critical judgment here, or else you might as well turn the museum into a printed-out compilation of every Billboard Top Rock Albums chart.

also, Jon landau, alongside Azoff, will join other Hall Poobahs like Wenner and Ertegun in non-performing categories this year…

xp I don’t think there should even be a fan vote!

the fans should start their own hall of fame. with blackjack. and hookers.

one would think that Dave Marsh would have thrown his weight around for the Five, but he is no longer on the nominating committee.

I'm sure he did -- the 5 were nominated a few times while Marsh was still on the committee -- but I think he only had so much weight to throw around. After all, he said he would do everything possible to keep Kiss out of the HOF, and they managed to get in.

It means something for Doobies bottom line to be in the Hall, as it does for say, Chicago; whereas I don't think that the estates of Whitney or Christopher Wallace could be that concerned.

Interesting, and something I understand well in terms of the Baseball HOF but not as it relates to this one. When a baseball player goes in, that player immediately is able to charge more for autographs at card shows--much, much more. (Happy to say I've never paid for an autograph in my life.) I'm guessing the Doobie Brothers or whoever can now attach "Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Inductee" whenever they play a show at Casino Rama or wherever they're playing, and that that helps sell tickets?

xpost I think there was some pushback because she didn't write or play on any of those hits, and she is not that great of a singer.

― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, January 15, 2020 9:45 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

lol ok half the people in the RRHOF didn't write or play any of their hits so that's not even a factor. (Nobody is making this complaint about e.g. Tina Turner or, uh, Elvis.) And if you're going to bring up Joan Jett as a point of comparison, the vast majority of music listeners know her not only for songs she didn't write, but for actual cover songs.

But the idea that Benatar is not a great singer is absolutely preposterous. She had years of opera training as a kid, has a phenomenal range, and brings an incredible amount of feel.

I think a big problem with the MC5 is they didn't spin off an Iggy or Lou Reed to keep the legend going.

― a bevy of supermodels, musicians and Lena Dunham (C. Grisso/McCain), Wednesday, January 15, 2020 9:13 AM (fifty-one minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I love this so much

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyrcUlX7sPg

Plus I don't care what someone did and didn't write -- 6 platinum and 3 gold albums, and 15 top 40 singles is, as Kevin Costner says in "Bull Durham," a career.

I'm guessing the Doobie Brothers or whoever can now attach "Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Inductee" whenever they play a show at Casino Rama or wherever they're playing, and that that helps sell tickets?

― clemenza, Wednesday, January 15, 2020 10:59 AM (nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I would be pretty surprised if that tipped the scales for anyone on the fence about whether or not to go see the Doobies in 2020.

xpost

how many of the classic R&B performers in the hall fail the "didn't write or play on the songs" test? probably 90% at least

I was going to say that Fred Berry should induct the Doobies, but unfortunately he passed away in 2003.

xp pretty much anyone inducted on the Motown label not named Marvin Gaye or Smokey Robinson

or Stevie obvs

Many of the Motown performers were exceptional singers, imo. I don't care about Pat Benatar one way or the other, the whole Rock Hall thing is stupid, but in no way would I consider her an exceptional singer. I don't know what she has going for her except a handful of big hits to her name, and by that standard just about anybody who charts more than a couple of times is going to get in.

I don't care about Pat Benatar one way or the other, the whole Rock Hall thing is stupid, but in no way would I consider her an exceptional singer. I don't know what she has going for her except a handful of big hits to her name, and by that standard just about anybody who charts more than a couple of times is going to get in.

Benatar has five platinum albums (Crimes Of Passion and Precious time were quadruple and double platinum, respectively), three gold albums, and 15 Top 40 hits, including four Top Ten hits. By any measure she is a major artist. And as mentioned above, she has a massive voice and extensive formal training.

great singer obv

she is not that great of a singer.

― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, January 15, 2020 7:45 AM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

amazing

I don't think she's a bad singer!

I mean, by all of the above standards Bon Jovi belongs in there too, but I think Bon Jovi sucks. I like Pat Benatar a lot more than I like Bon Jovi.

I dunno, I think in my brain I apply the vague standard of impact and influence.

Again, whole system is stupid and silly! But there has to be some standard, right? Otherwise everyone gets in. Should Rick Springfield be in there? Sure! How about Orleans? Sure! Pablo Cruise? Sure! And so on.

What standard does Joan Jett meet that Pat Benatar doesn't?

joan jett rocks

how is this hard

Yeah, there's that. I think she's a more distinctive singer, I think her history is more important, I think she was a pioneering independent artist with Blackheart records, etc.

I think there are people influenced by Joan Jett, and no one influenced by Pat Benatar. Maybe Patty Smyth?

Benatar was an incredible singer. She trained in opera first growing up which probably helped. Always loved her dirtier vocals too

pat benatar is both an excellent singer and someone who doesn't belong in the rock hall. not sure why she's become such a cause celebre.

but the floodgates are open now, might as well let her in. she's much better than the other jamokes jic mentioned upthread.

Give them time!

letting Benatar in would not flood the gates with fuckin Go West type groups

Give them time, too!

Until Judas Priest gets in, the HoF could be flooded with manure for all i care

That would be ... breaking the law.

I think in my brain I apply the vague standard of impact and influence.

OK, so define these vague terms in a way that excludes a multiplatinum artist who broke significant ground for other female singers in hard rock music.

Also, Benatar and her husband/lead guitarist wrote a significant number of her singles; most if not all of Joan Jett's hits were covers ("I Love Rock & Roll," "Crimson and Clover," "Do You Wanna Touch Me").

I think there are people influenced by Joan Jett, and no one influenced by Pat Benatar. Maybe Patty Smyth?

― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, January 15, 2020 12:29 PM (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

lolwut

You don't think that, just off the cuff, Amy Lee was a Pat Benatar fan?

I would be pretty surprised if that tipped the scales for anyone on the fence about whether or not to go see the Doobies in 2020.

Veronica Moser suggested induction meant something tangible to the Doobie Brothers--I'm just trying to figure out what that is. VM also mentioned "bottom line," so I assume that means a financial advantage of some kind.

i dig Joan Jett a ton but i don't find her *more* distinctive than Pat Benatar, nor a better singer.

i do not understand why benetar doesn't belong in the rock hall given that i don't even fucking understand why a lot of people are/are not in the rock hall in the first place

like do y’all care about this long-incoherent institution so much

I mean, influence and relevance is tough...like I would totally put MC5 in

I can also hardly think of a rock band that seems less relevant to music today

I mean if that dickhole Bongiovi got in...

Xpost otm

Let's all agree that DMB not getting in rules and we should troll their fans

I've got to say again that I come at this from the perspective of a baseball fan. The Baseball HOF inductions are cause for much sniping every year, both for who goes in and who doesn't. As objectively as possible, I've got to say that the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame bar is much, much lower. (The first few years, when it was Chuck Berry and the Beatles and such going in, the two were on about even footing.) When Harold Baines went into Cooperstown last year, there was (warranted) apoplexy--it was a a terrible choice, the worst in years. But the musical equivalent of Harold Baines, whoever it is, would be a far more legitimate Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductee than the Doobie Brothers and Pat Benatars and Nine Inch Nails of the world. I'm sure of this.

it would and will be Foo Fighters, so less legitimate imo

ok, music isn't sports xp

Is Bongiovi a dickhole? I thought he was supposed to be an ok guy (anyway, his band is in, but not him personally).

jon bong jovi

Now, John Mellencamp is (notoriously) a major dickhole -- and when he didn't get into the HoF in his first year of eligibility, he smashed up his patio with a sledgehammer in a fit of anger!

haha Mellencamp is such a greaser

Very unchill, Johnny Cougar.

DMB will get in soon enough.

https://www.vulture.com/2019/10/2020-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees-ranked.html

a decent worst music writing candidate from awhile back, if it wasn't already submitted

oooh classic bill wyman trash

I hate to compare female nominees with other female nominees; that is itself a sexist construct. But for the record,

The case for hall inclusion is that Depeche Mode was a fairly popular synth-rock band in the ’80s and ’90s, a plain cut above the Thompson Twins and the like; the case against is that Gahan has a tedious, stentorian voice and Gore was nothing other than a serviceable songwriter. New Order’s work was dark and complex during this period; Gore’s, by contrast, felt a bit sophomoric, in the literal sense — like the work of a talented college sophomore who liked New Order. Beyond that, New Order has close to half a dozen timeless top-tier dance-rock classics. Depeche Mode doesn’t have one. The nomination feels like the product of an organization that doesn’t quite understand the music it thinks it’s honoring.

this guy is a fucking moron!

Lol at the bullshit he wrote about Biggie

it's amazing how full of shit he is, every time, no matter what he's writing about

Let's all agree that DMB not getting in rules and we should troll their fans

I would like to reiterate this excellent point

He is unquestionably a heralded rapper from a certain time, but this has to be seen in the context of that time — which is that the music became highly commercialized and ever more crudely articulated psychotic tropes about sex and violence, and Smalls bought into it big-time. All sorts of arguments can be made in support of such material, although it should be noted that they change; they’re a joke one minute, real-life missives from the streets the next (and yes, I know Johnny Cash once shot a man in Reno just to watch him die). Of course, gangsta rap is a valid form and, again of course, Smalls is a master, but he’s still a guy who wrote an awful lot of songs about getting blow jobs from “bitches.”

... no one tell him what "Afternoon Delight" is about or what The Loving Spoonful are named after

"how dare you talk crudely about sex, this is rock and roll" *puts on Little Richard* "ah yes, that's the stuff"

This is the left-field choice for this year. Much beloved by fans of tough ’70s rock, the band is known in the U.S. for a couple of semi-novelty hits from the middle part of that decade: “Jailbreak” and “The Boys Are Back in Town,” the latter a pop-rock confection for the ages. Leader Phil Lynott, who played bass, also wrote a goofy thing called “The Cowboy Song,” which on a good night makes you think it might be the greatest rock song ever written. He produced some interesting stuff as a solo act after disbanding Thin Lizzy but died a few years later after becoming debilitated from heroin addiction. Like most critics, I like Lynott’s stuff and carefully collected his more obscure work back in the day, but now it feels like another pet act whose nomination was brokered by someone in the nomination room, like the Zombies’ last year, rather than part of an effort to capture the history of the music fairly. I don’t really think Thin Lizzy is Hall of Fame material.

this guy has never heard a Thin Lizzy song in his life has he

Eh, Thin Lizzy does nothing for me. I don't viscerally hate them the way I hate T. Rex, I just think they're massively overpraised.

the album cuts and not the singles is where the greatness lies imo but i don't doubt you've dug deep.

Wait, viscerally hate T. Rex!?

Xpost Whereas Bill Wyman... hasn't.

I love Lizzy

Depeche Mode doesn’t have one

They have a song that became so popular it has a fucking line dance you choad.

The irony of a metal guru hating T Rex!

Veronica Moser suggested induction meant something tangible to the Doobie Brothers--I'm just trying to figure out what that is. VM also mentioned "bottom line," so I assume that means a financial advantage of some kind.

― clemenza, Wednesday, January 15, 2020 12:38 PM (forty-five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I mean, I suppose it's possible. I know that whenever I hear ads for shows by bands like Chicago or Journey, the fact that they're in the HoF is always mentioned.

The hall seems to have given up on Rage Against the Machine following two nominations immediately after its eligibility, which was nuts. Tom Morello is a talented guitarist, but the band’s corner of the music world wasn’t all that interesting and felt like more of a niche than an innovation.

ok interesting train of thought

ftr I love Pat Benatar inordinately. Her songs still fucking move me in totally unironic ways. If, by some cosmic misunderstanding, I ran an institution that sought to honor kickass musical performers she would be in it. Near the top.

But I am a little o_O about why "had years of opera training" or "formal training" or "classically trained" should be among the ways we praise rock acts.

All the mousefuckers in Mannheim Steamroller are "classically trained" and their music still blows dead bears.

Maxims that I hope are uncontroversial:

1. You can be extremely well-trained and not rock.
2. You can be completely untutored and rock quite a bit.

Isn't this kinda central to "rock" as a cultural construct? The Pistols quite famously could not play their instrumentzzzzz blah blah blah I am already boring myself adskasljkqhgq3;oh

Just found out that, while Carole King is in the HoF as a writer (a joint award with Gerry Goffin), she's not in as a performer.

xpost who was using it to praise her music? the discussion was around the quality of her singing, not the music itself.

I used to praise Chester Bennington's singing too and I hated Linkin Park and had he had a relevant background that was germane to the topic of his singing....i'd bring it up!

After a few albums of insane folk rock under the name Tyrannosaurus Rex (one of the least appropriate rock names ever, given the music), he finally went electric, changed his band’s name to T. Rex, and ascended with a deranged rant called “Bang a Gong.”

not the worst offender in this piece, but christ this is some seriously bad writing. "insane"! "deranged"! in what universe does t. rex (who i love) sound like that?

Somehow very Trent to just casually mention this:

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/trent-reznor-rock-roll-hall-fame-937871/

It’ll be interesting to see who inducts you. Any idea who you want to see do that?

No. Like I said, this is still fresh information. And I just had a new baby over the weekend.

Whitney Houston in before her cousin, Dionne Warwick.

Someone much smarter than me can probably write a mathematical formula determining with some degree of accuracy at what point literally every act will be in the Rock Hall. Like, if x=y+ time divided by r, then Nickelback will be in by 2051 or something.
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, January 15, 2020 9:59 AM

I may have mentioned this on another HOF thread--I do tend to repeat myself--but there's a few of them, and I'm too lazy to check.

I had an idea few years ago for a book, based on Bill James's Baseball HOF book, that would try to do exactly that--quantify who gets into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. That's what James's book tried to do; figure out how it was that the players who were in there got in, as opposed to arguing that x should be in but y shouldn't. He came up with an elaborate point system that very accurately set a benchmark for who was in and who wasn't: under 70 points was no, over 100 was yes, 70-100 was the gray area. (Not nearly so accurate for the PED era, which came later.)

The problem--partly why I abandoned the idea--is that you can only objectively quantify so much when it comes to music. Chart positions, record sales, and awards, yes. But when you try to do that with influence, fame, aesthetic worth, you can only be so objective. It's easy to say Chuck Berry and the Velvet Underground get 10 for influence, that Elvis gets 10 for fame, and that the Shoes get 10 for aesthetic worth...okay, change the Shoes to Bob Dylan. And that Europe get zeros for influence and aesthetic worth. (Fame, I don't know--I still remember them.) The gray area between, often very difficult.

Europe gets 10 points for aerobics.

I know you could make make an alternate Hall of Fame out of snubs that would rival the existing one BUT

The notion that neither Jane's Addiction or the Pixies aren't in while the likes of lameass contemporaries Pearl Jam, NIN, RHCP and Green Day (!) all are—is truly laughable

I'ma go ahead and take Pearl Jam and NiN right back out of that pile, thank you.

I get that Pearl Jam has to be in because "industry" but there are a bunch of industrial acts that predate and better NIN...but I know, hall of FAME

even NiN doesn't identify as "industrial", unless you think Downward Spiral was the only album they released

yeah, obviously they drew from that well even before and after then, but Reznor is a pop artist first and foremost and draws from a much larger well than just Jim Thirlwell

The irony of a metal guru hating T Rex!

― papa stank (Neanderthal), Wednesday, January 15, 2020 12:28 PM (three hours ago)

i loled!

xp I just think back to that first Lollapalooza with a bunch of great bands—Siouxsie, Buttholes, Rollins (NiN too!) and how every night they all stuck around in the wings to watch Jane's just absolutely wipe the floor with them. Have they even been nominated?

yes, and they've been a finalist as recently as two years ago

I drove through Cleveland a few weeks ago w/ my daughters hoping to see the Zeppelin rig that was on display on the Met last year only to find that the vast majority of stuff from that exhibit didn't make it to Cleveland

When I asked why not this woman (also disapppointed) explained that while the building looks cool from the outside, making it a pyramid means the floors are too small to exhibit a lot of the things they'd like to :-/

We did however get to make logos and stickers for our imaginary bands and take turns thumping away in a drum closet

I love Jane’s Addiction for 2 albums (spread across three albums) but the idea that they are de facto better than the Banshees makes me lol really hard

Also, I’m a goth

i would say nin had a much profounder impact on rock and pop music than jane's addiction but also that assumes that any such criterion exists for the rock hall, which it doesn't, so it doesn't matter

"Influence" is supposed to be one of the criteria...

"supposed to be" being the operative phrase there

xo I didn’t say they were better or more deserving than the Banshees!

For a few short years Jane’s were just devastating live, on that tour in particular. Just a really intense, strange energy that I’ve never seen matched on stage.

I was curious about when exactly the RRHOF went off the rails (beyond “having a hall of fame for rock and roll”) and in YEAR 2, they managed to vote in Ricky Nelson before the Drifters or the Platters.

Why do we still have these arguments?

^^^^^^^ otm

xo I didn’t say they were better or more deserving than the Banshees!

For a few short years Jane’s were just devastating live, on that tour in particular. Just a really intense, strange energy that I’ve never seen matched on stage.

jesus christ

do we count Lollapalooza as part of Jane's influence? because then you could make a strong case they were as influential as any on the 90s...

https://external-preview.redd.it/iVGdNr7UjYsHE6u3VbLjLfnx2RVyKab96TqI_eYa5-I.jpg

How have the Banshees (and Joy Division, and The B-52's, and DOLLY f'in PARTON) NEVER even been nominated before ???

How many Country artists are in though?

Nine Inch Nails leaves me cold and I don’t care about this Hall of Fame, but I know this much:

In 2019, Reznor and Ross received songwriting and production credits for the number-one single "Old Town Road" by Lil Nas X, which sampled their track "34 Ghosts IV" from Ghosts I-IV.[274] "Old Town Road" broke the record for most consecutive weeks at number one on the Billboard Hot 100.[275] As producers for the song, Reznor and Ross garnered a CMA Award nomination for the 'Musical Event Of The Year' award, along with Lil Nas X, featured artist Billy Ray Cyrus and producer YoungKio.[276]

goddamnit every year i remember Blue Oyster Cult isn't in, what a bunch of bullshit

rt

It’s really bizarre that Depeche Mode and NIN (the aggro Depeche Mode) - both deserving - get in before Kraftwerk, but I guess that’s just sales figures. What I really wanna know is why Whitney gets in when Mariah Carey, a way more rock and roll artist at the end of the day and also objectively more popular, has never even been nominated. I mean, I know it’s because Mariah is still alive. But it’s still bullshit. And how was Outkast not even nominated? They’re a shoo-in, and they were eligible as of last fall.

Actually I’m pretty sure Outkast were eligible in 2018- “Player’s Ball” was a Christmas single. In 1993.

How is Mariah “objectively more popular” than Whitney? At a glance, looks like they’ve both sold between 200-250mm albums worldwide; can each claim impressive-sounding chart records; and have each won a ton of awards (though Whitney seems to have the edge there, as she apparently holds the Guinness Record for “most awarded female artist of all time”).

Having grown up with both, I feel like Whitney was always on a higher plane than Mariah in terms of status and perceived artistry. (Which is not to say that you are wrong about Whitney’s HoF honor owing largely to the fact that she is deceased; maybe that’s true, I have no idea.)

Also not sure I agree about OutKast being an immediate “shoo-in” upon eligibility, but whatever.

Postmortem, Whitney is bigger than Mariah if Spotify is the metric - which surprised me. I’m just talking about raw numbers with regard to hit singles and album sales. So I’m probably fudging the numbers a little bit. My read is that Whitney Houston had massive sales and basically no respect from critics before she died in 2012. Mariah Carey had equally massive numbers, equal critical disdain giving way to grudging respect in the late 90s and thereafter once she aligned herself with the hip hop nation. And once she went hip hop she never let go, never went back, never played it off like it was just a phase. She knew which way the wind was blowing.

To be fair I don’t think Whitney Houston ever had that luxury, whether due to colorism or any number of other circumstances beyond her control. But even if we’re limiting ourselves to the first 10 years of each singer’s career, Carey just flat-out had more good records.

Whitney still not getting a whole lot of respect, I see.

How is Todd Rundgren not in there? As a producer alone ... !

i want him to get inducted and then for the HOF concert, an all-star band plays a 23 minute version of "Bang the Drum All Day"

That sounds like work, which is anathema to the song's ethos.

it's not anathema if they're just banging drums

"Just" banging drums, gtfo with that. *You* bang on a drum for 23-minutes, it's hard work! There's a reason Ringo's All-Star Band tours with another drummer, and it's because Ringo doesn't want to work, because work is hard. Besides, imagine the drum union overtime fees alone!

Hmm. Maybe if they switched off drummers, and limited the amount of banging each could do? There are a lot of drummers in the Hall of Fame. That could circumvent union policy *and* prevent anyone from doing too much work.

*You* bang on a drum for 23-minutes, it's hard work!

he doesn't wanna work, he just wants to bang on the drum 'all day.' banging on a drum 'all day' is necessarily more work than banging on a drum for '23 minutes.' but that just what he wants to do.

You ever heard anyone bang on a drum for 23 minutes? It might as well be all day. There's a reason I love Led Zeppelin but never listen to Zeppelin bootlegs.

I played the role of the pulse for a performance of In C and I just played quarter notes like a robot for way over 23 minutes
it was quite relaxing tbh

yeah banging a drum for 23 minutes is actually quite meditative

that's pretty much my daily practice regime

xxpost But did you bang out those quarter notes, or just sort of gently tap them out?

i varied in intensity to create some dynamics, of course

that's pretty much my daily practice regime
i play drums for 23 min straight all the time honestly, it's not that big of a deal! brad otm

Lol at any of you taking this seriously. Love you all.

You dorks.

Todd Rundgren is annoying af

^must be an EMPLOYER

Proud of my nerdery!!
Regarding Todd Rundgren I had a teacher in hs who was a superfan and decorated her room w photos of him, which was no small thing in the early 90s. I never understood it but appreciated her enthusiasm.

Like I said before, he deserves to be in for his production alone! New York Dolls, Badfinger, XTC, Psychedelic Furs, Grand Funk Railroad, Meat Loaf, many of whom had huge or unlikely hits with him behind the boards.

As a solo artist ... "Something/Anything" is pretty cool, not that familiar with everything else.

I don't have the list in front of me or anything but I'm guessing if I looked at great rock producers who should be in the hall of fame who aren't Rundgren wouldn't be top 20

Yeah, but I bet many of them are in the hall already!

Though just looking now it seems that Eno isn't in, and has been eligible since 1999. So yeah, stupid rock hall is stupid, it's a no-win.

The Shawn Cassidy album he produced is tight!!

Rundgren