Interesting piece here:
https://www.vulture.com/2019/04/how-indie-artists-actually-make-money-in-2019.html#comments
― Paul Ponzi, Tuesday, 9 April 2019 17:50 (four years ago) link
How far we've fallen since the '90s. You wouldn't see Justine Frischmann working at Burger King, would you?
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Tuesday, 9 April 2019 18:00 (four years ago) link
since she was born into an extremely wealthy family and went to St Pauls then architectural school, no, you probably wouldn't
― Neil S, Tuesday, 9 April 2019 18:07 (four years ago) link
Missing from the piece, of course, is any mention of the circumstances that led to these dire predicaments
― Paul Ponzi, Tuesday, 9 April 2019 18:37 (four years ago) link
We all know what happened. The idiots that accused Metallica of being rich, greedy bastards circa 2001 finally got their wish and the music industry died on its arse, and now anyone wanting to make a career out of being a full-tie musician is fucked. It's also caused a decline in the amount of music of real quality because no one can be arsed, but that's a whole 'nother conversation.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Tuesday, 9 April 2019 19:09 (four years ago) link
*full-time.
I was gonna just say "Spotify," but I like your answer better
― Paul Ponzi, Tuesday, 9 April 2019 19:14 (four years ago) link
The music industry discovered a host of ways to hoard even more profits and pay artists even less, is mainly what happened.
― Simon H., Tuesday, 9 April 2019 19:22 (four years ago) link
I don't buy nearly the number of CDs I used to so I blame myself for the industry downturn.
― Gerald McBoing-Boing, Tuesday, 9 April 2019 19:43 (four years ago) link
The big bad record companies share the blame but to let file sharing consumers off the hook is disingenuous.
― kornrulez6969, Tuesday, 9 April 2019 19:49 (four years ago) link
I'm not letting them off the hook, I'm just affixing a significantly bigger one to the labels.
― Simon H., Tuesday, 9 April 2019 19:51 (four years ago) link
I'd swap 'em around.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Tuesday, 9 April 2019 19:54 (four years ago) link
The same process is happening with Netflix and TV actors. (Not sure if film actors have seen the same shift.) Studios and labels are using new delivery methods to vastly improve their bottom line. This is not controversial.
― Simon H., Tuesday, 9 April 2019 20:01 (four years ago) link
If the labels had cared about compensating artists to the extent that they can make a living when they were adjusting to the digitization of music we wouldn't have ended up with Spotify paying out .0007USD per stream or whatever. Instead they saw an opening to pay less and they ran with it.
― Simon H., Tuesday, 9 April 2019 20:06 (four years ago) link
I would guess that the record companies are also making less compared to what they were making in the 20th century. That it's a shit royalty rate goes without saying. It sure beats the £0.00 that anyone would have made from filesharing, though, which is the actual real reason it's all ended up in this sorry mess to begin with.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 00:58 (four years ago) link
I've no trouble believing that it might be worse now but are we working from the premise that second-tier indie musicians did not need day jobs in the pre-Napster days?
Also lol @ "Side hustle: college professor"
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 02:13 (four years ago) link
lol i was gonna say some of these are front and center hustles
― you know who deserves sitewide mod privileges? (m bison), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 02:15 (four years ago) link
Precisely. Sometimes there's money to be made and sometimes there isn't. Blaming the current situation on filesharing is ludicrous.
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 06:59 (four years ago) link
Holmes: “I’m a senior director of operations at ADP,
hahahahahahHAHAAHAHAHAHA -- most of these "side hustles" aren't all that odd, seriously, "senior director of operations at ADP is an unusual one, most of the rest are fairly typical for musicians who make enough to uh, have articles written about them.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 07:08 (four years ago) link
what is ADP
― blokes you can't rust (sic), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 07:25 (four years ago) link
lisa germano used to work at Whole Foods in WeHo like 10 years ago maybe i saw her there but not being really a fan i wouldn't know. but it would be nice to think she sliced my bread or packaged up my scallops or something
― velko, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 07:29 (four years ago) link
rock stars who went back work.
― velko, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 07:36 (four years ago) link
this article is v American or at least non-British in its candidness about money. as much as my instincts go against it I find it weirdly kneejerk jarring knowing the income of members of the band Charly Bliss
― Terry Major-Ball Will Tell You (DJ Mencap), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 07:42 (four years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIvSxA56HP0
― velko, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 07:47 (four years ago) link
I'm not sure how much I imagined the members of Charly Bliss earned, but I guess I figured they had part-time jobs at the very least.
― Sam Weller, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 08:04 (four years ago) link
"The idiots that accused Metallica of being rich, greedy bastards circa 2001 finally got their wish and the music industry died on its arse"
by gad this must be the most astonishingly incisive thesis on the rise and fall of the music industry I've ever seen on ilm - gr8 post - glad we got it sorted etc..
― calzino, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 08:07 (four years ago) link
reports of music industry's death seem greatly exaggerated:
https://i.imgur.com/NukUX5s.png
― what if bod was one of us (ledge), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 09:28 (four years ago) link
idk guys if some lumpen mid-tier indie band that sounds like a hundred other lumpen mid-tier indie bands can't make a good living for life off of sales of lumpen mid-tier indie records then i think we can safely say that capitalism has failed
― Boles to the Wolds (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 10:00 (four years ago) link
plenty of lumpen mid-tier indie bands were given big advances by pseudo-indie labels in the 1990s before being unceremoniously dumped a couple of years later, this is still what some people expect to happen in 2019
― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 10:05 (four years ago) link
well quite, mistaking a bubble for the natural order of things
fortunately most working class people have easy access to a range of non-precarious jobs with great terms and conditions so the parlous state of popular music as a career in 2019 is obv some sort of anomaly
― Boles to the Wolds (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 10:08 (four years ago) link
It's also caused a decline in the amount of music of real quality because no one can be arsed, but that's a whole 'nother conversation.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Tuesday, April 9, 2019 12:09 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
this isn’t true
― jolene club remix (BradNelson), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 11:15 (four years ago) link
simon otm
turrican a huge dumbass in this thread as always
― jolene club remix (BradNelson), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 11:18 (four years ago) link
― jolene club remix (BradNelson)
i think that's just textbook trolling... that statement is so cliche that I find it impossible that he didn't make that comment with some degree of self-awareness.
― enochroot, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 11:25 (four years ago) link
who are we talking about here
― jolene club remix (BradNelson), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 11:26 (four years ago) link
David Arditi's iTake-Over: The Recording Industry in the Digital Era takes exactly this position, and argues it fairly convincingly: that the industry's owners haven't suffered much at all by virtually eliminating their overhead and distributing music through platforms that pay royalties to labels instead of songwriters, unlike radio, and are compensating artists even less than before. In his view, the narrative of the 'crash of the music industry' has been used to push for even more regulatory protection to favour capital over labour in this industry.
This article doesn't necessarily make a compelling case for the troubles of artists, though.
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 11:35 (four years ago) link
An interesting enough article, but – and I'm not having a go at any of them – I've never heard of any of those people in my life apart from Cass McCombs. So while it's possible I just don't have my ear pressed to the ground hard enough, it s equally possible that most of them are obscure types who are never going to sell enough records to e.g. buy a house.
McCombs himself: "This is a shitty thing to say, but maybe musicians don’t deserve to make a living. Maybe it should be a hobby. But if that’s true, I don’t want to see some talentless pop stars making what they make, while quality living museums of folk-music knowledge get paid nothing. That’s not cool."
― does it look like i'm here (jon123), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 11:40 (four years ago) link
In the UK the dole and the art college grant are to thank for a huge chunk of the arts & culture we produced between the 60s and the 80s, some would say our only real success as a nation at that time, or since.Can't imagine trying to persuade Americans that that's the way to go, though, and hard disagree with McCombs, hobbies are only for the already comfortably off.
― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 11:49 (four years ago) link
I might be able to agree with McCombs in situations where no one is making a profit from the music.
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 12:09 (four years ago) link
(Emphasis on "might" btw. I'm not even sure I'd agree in those cases, esp when waiting to hear back about a grant application.)
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 12:12 (four years ago) link
what
― Sam Weller, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 12:19 (four years ago) link
Cass McCombs (born 1977 in Concord, California) is an American musician, best known for releasing 9 albums since 2002.
i don't know who wrote this wiki lede but it made me lol and i tip my hat to them
― Boles to the Wolds (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 12:48 (four years ago) link
Oh yeah, that's the guy who put out 9 albums since 2002.
― jmm, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 13:02 (four years ago) link
a pub quiz classic
― Boles to the Wolds (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 13:08 (four years ago) link
not to be confused with gaz mccoombes
― kolarov spring (NickB), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 13:15 (four years ago) link
Gaz McCoombes also has strong opinions about talentless pop stars
― Boles to the Wolds (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 13:17 (four years ago) link
Hold on, Cass McCombs is a man? Who was I confusing him with then?
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 13:22 (four years ago) link
Mamma Cass ?
― calzino, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 13:22 (four years ago) link
mama cass, obv
― he once took my hand and poked Neil Armstrong in the butt (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 13:23 (four years ago) link
fuck, beaten to it
No, Mama Cass never put out 9 albums.
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 13:23 (four years ago) link
ahem
The Big 3 1963: The Big 3 1964: Live at the Recording StudioThe Mugwumps 1965: The MugwumpsThe Mamas and the Papas 1966: If You Can Believe Your Eyes and Ears 1966: The Mamas & the Papas 1967: The Mamas and the Papas Deliver 1968: The Papas & The Mamas 1970: Monterey Pop Festival (Live)[43] (recorded in 1967) 1971: People Like Us
1963: The Big 3 1964: Live at the Recording Studio
The Mugwumps
1965: The Mugwumps
The Mamas and the Papas
1966: If You Can Believe Your Eyes and Ears 1966: The Mamas & the Papas 1967: The Mamas and the Papas Deliver 1968: The Papas & The Mamas 1970: Monterey Pop Festival (Live)[43] (recorded in 1967) 1971: People Like Us
― he once took my hand and poked Neil Armstrong in the butt (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 13:25 (four years ago) link
being the flamekeeper of "real music" and doing a job to pay for your neaps + tatties is a tough bloody gig, but those McCoombes boys are Made oot o' pure tough stuff!
― calzino, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 13:30 (four years ago) link
neaps
it's 'neeps' u savage
― he once took my hand and poked Neil Armstrong in the butt (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 13:31 (four years ago) link
lol soz!
― calzino, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 13:32 (four years ago) link
Solo albums u savage.
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 13:33 (four years ago) link
too soon for Neepsy Hussle arguments, please
― Boles to the Wolds (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 13:34 (four years ago) link
Everybody's gettin' fat 'cept McCombs, Cass
― Sam Weller, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 13:42 (four years ago) link
no neepsy hussle hassle, counsels noodle
― he once took my hand and poked Neil Armstrong in the butt (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 13:44 (four years ago) link
I don't want to nitpick the folks in this article bc they all seem fine and some of them I am even fans of, but I lol'd at this bit in one of the blurbs:
I moved back home with my family just to take off the added stress of making rent [...]I don’t have a rich dad funding my career.
I mean... you literally do have a parent funding your career?
― One Eye Open, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 14:17 (four years ago) link
the Algiers blurb made me sad as they're one of the best bands currently going. glad I picked up both LPs when they came through but it's time to find a hoodie of theirs or something.
― Simon H., Wednesday, 10 April 2019 14:21 (four years ago) link
I was mildly surprised to see the guy from Budos Band on there, I would have figured that they do ok, but then I remembered that there are like 9 people in that band so touring is probably murder.
― One Eye Open, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 14:24 (four years ago) link
"Art teacher in a NYC high school for 17 years" is another one that seems like a stretch as a "side hustle".
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 14:32 (four years ago) link
btw, being a living museum of folk-music knowledge is it's own reward, right?
― Mark G, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 14:46 (four years ago) link
I like the guy who notes that being a webmaster for a group of old-school Seattle socialists doesn’t pay very well.
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 14:49 (four years ago) link
hmmm, sounds as if it’s a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll
― pippin drives a lambo through the gates of isengard (Sparkle Motion), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 14:51 (four years ago) link
I've no trouble believing that it might be worse now but are we working from the premise that second-tier indie musicians did not need day jobs in the pre-Napster days?― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Wednesday, April 10, 2019 2:13 AM (twelve hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Wednesday, April 10, 2019 2:13 AM (twelve hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Well, yes, mediocre indie bands making mediocre indie music for a cupboard full of their friends may well have found it difficult to get the necessary break that would enable them to quit their day jobs and move into a full-time career recording and touring their music. I'm more talking about the wider picture.
And as much as Brad protests, it has had an effect. It's all well and good for people to spout hippyish nonsense like "well, people who feel the drive to make music will always want to make music", but if there's no money in your chosen profession then the idea of chasing after a career in music becomes less and less attractive. It's led to more people becoming totally apathetic about a career in music or even wanting to make any music of real quality. The artists currently making the big/blockbuster releases are either already fully established or are moneyed enough to do it. There's far too much music being made with a "this'll do" quality to it, because they can't be arsed, and because Spotify places any new release by Mr. Joe Experimentalbollocks-from-Coventry on the same pedestal as something of real quality, they don't feel any great need to be arsed. The amount of shit music I've heard this decade has been utterly embarrassing.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 14:57 (four years ago) link
boy, "permalance" sure is a depressing term
― Simon H., Wednesday, 10 April 2019 14:58 (four years ago) link
maybe stop listening to shit music idk
― Boles to the Wolds (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 14:59 (four years ago) link
man I remember the Napster days and how everyone on it was like "this is awesome, I'd gladly pay for this if I could"...like, this was the era of the $17.99 CD with one or two good songs on it, massive amounts of re-issues and greatest hits, etc etc. tempting to blame the consumer but you can't really fault us for feeling ripped off. like you can't really blame people too much for streaming a boxing match when you're charging $99.99 for pay-per-view. I used to think that the industry punting the digital side for a decade-plus was the big culprit, but now that we have Spotify where an artist gets paid a quarter per 100,000 plays, I'm starting to think capitalism might be the real problem here
― frogbs, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 15:08 (four years ago) link
what is ADP― blokes you can't rust (sic), Wednesday, April 10, 2019 12:25 AM (seven hours ago)
― blokes you can't rust (sic), Wednesday, April 10, 2019 12:25 AM (seven hours ago)
probably about 30% - 40% of workers in the US have their payroll or (at least w-2s) processed by ADP -- in the company's own words:
"We are a comprehensive global provider of cloud-based human capital management (HCM) solutions that unite HR, payroll, talent, time, tax and benefits administration, and a leader in business outsourcing services, analytics and compliance expertise."
― sarahell, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 15:09 (four years ago) link
lisa germano used to work at Whole Foods in WeHo like 10 years ago maybe i saw her there but not being really a fan i wouldn't know. but it would be nice to think she sliced my bread or packaged up my scallops or something― velko, Wednesday, April 10, 2019 12:29 AM (seven hours ago)
― velko, Wednesday, April 10, 2019 12:29 AM (seven hours ago)
I think my ex's brother worked at that Whole Foods around that time???! (not that you would have confused him for Lisa Germano ... like, maybe they were co-workers)
― sarahell, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 15:11 (four years ago) link
How far we've fallen since the '90s.
speaking of the 90s, the thing that's most "odd" to me about the jobs listed here, is that none of them are strippers / sex workers -- that was way more common in the 90s.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 15:25 (four years ago) link
man I remember the Napster days and how everyone on it was like "this is awesome, I'd gladly pay for this if I could"...like, this was the era of the $17.99 CD with one or two good songs on it
I dunno, I kinda blame the consumer. I remember having that debate and hearing that line back in the day from friends who were students, working shit jobs, etc. And now 15 years later many of them have houses and good jobs and can afford a $17.99 CD or ten, yet they seem to have changed their tune on this point.
― One Eye Open, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 15:29 (four years ago) link
"Whole Foods is the he best dead end job in the world" is a joke I've heard among musicians.
― bendy, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 15:34 (four years ago) link
The artists currently making the big/blockbuster releases are either already fully established or are moneyed enough to do it.
otm. It's actually become frustratingly difficult to find exceptions to this.
― Paul Ponzi, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 16:04 (four years ago) link
I remember an old interview about Interpol where Paul Banks talked about how he would take dead, deader, dead-i-er end office jobs so that he would be forced to make his band successful. I don't recall if he was a rich kid where that action plan actually had no consequences.
― Yerac, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 16:08 (four years ago) link
Interesting to see Cass McCombs here. He averages 1.2 million Spotify listeners a month. I was under the impression that the payout for that was around $7000 or $8000; not enough to be rich obviously, but would seem to support some kind of middle class lifestyle when combined with other revenue streams that come from being a musician (merchandise/physical record sales, syncs, money from touring if any).
Honestly, if so many artists are making nothing from 1 million g'damn streams a month, then I wish it were possible to organize some kind of recording strike like in the early 1940s:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1942%E2%80%9344_musicians%27_strike
― klonman, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 17:01 (four years ago) link
I was under the impression that the payout for that was around $7000 or $8000
*I should clarify that I meant monthly payout for the streaming number, as obviously 7 or 8 thousand a year would be woeful.
― klonman, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 17:03 (four years ago) link
― klonman, Wednesday, April 10, 2019 1:01 PM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
If this happened now, you would never see more strikebreakers in all your life
― Paul Ponzi, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 17:11 (four years ago) link
FYI
https://thetrichordist.com/2014/11/12/the-streaming-price-bible-spotify-youtube-and-what-1-million-plays-means-to-you/
― Paul Ponzi, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 17:13 (four years ago) link
Omg @ the rates for songwriters
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 18:03 (four years ago) link
Has anybody written a good book about the 1942/47 Petrillo strikes? I would love to read more about them. It is amazing that all musicians went on strike for over two years and you really couldn’t hear any new music (apart from reissues and acappellas). That would NEVER happen nowadays.
― Mr. Snrub, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 20:48 (four years ago) link
errr... ‘48, not ‘47.
― Mr. Snrub, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 20:50 (four years ago) link
none of them are strippers / sex workers -- that was way more common in the 90s
even if ppl would have publicly declared this, FOSTA/SESTA? also indie strip clubs are dead in Seattle and decimated in SF compared to the '90s aiui
$7000 or $8000; not enough to be rich obviously, but would seem to support some kind of middle class lifestyle when combined with other revenue streams that come from being a musician (merchandise/physical record sales, syncs, money from touring if any)
the $6,252/mo is not Cass McCombs the individual's income, it's the rights holder's gross. A quick squiz at Discogs suggests he only owns the publishing outright on one, maybe two of those nine records (so $625/mo if all the 1.2 million streams came from that one album), and the masters on none. with a four-piece backing band he'ss paying at least six people's wages on the road, plus all tour expenses, before he sees any touring income himself.
― blokes you can't rust (sic), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 21:03 (four years ago) link
music industry's death seem greatly exaggerated
to put that chart in perspective, the 50% haircut roughly mirrors landline ownership.
― campreverb, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 21:06 (four years ago) link
How are you reading a 50% haircut? I'm looking at it on a phone but the 2017 figures look above 50% even relative to the 2000 peak, comparable to 1992 levels, and higher than 70s and 80s figures. Unless it's not inflation-adjusted? 90s was a bubble for the music industry.
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 22:52 (four years ago) link
It's led to more people becoming totally apathetic about a career in music or even wanting to make any music of real quality
he was serious
paul ponzi otm'ing any part of that post is truly water finding its level
― jolene club remix (BradNelson), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:01 (four years ago) link
"when there's no financial incentive artists just put out any garbage" is both historically untrue and capitalist bullshit
There's far too much music being made with a "this'll do" quality to it, because they can't be arsed, and because Spotify places any new release by Mr. Joe Experimentalbollocks-from-Coventry on the same pedestal as something of real quality, they don't feel any great need to be arsed
this is not a real or observable dynamic, everything you say is bullshit, please stop taking up so much space on this board with your fucking bullshit
― jolene club remix (BradNelson), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:09 (four years ago) link
Oh look, Brad's throwing their toys out of their pram because they don't like what they're reading. Tough shit.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:13 (four years ago) link
You've be on your best behaviour for a while now, but you're coming out with some utter tosh itt.
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:15 (four years ago) link
Or, to put it another way, Lars Ulrich circa 2000 OTM.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:15 (four years ago) link
... with all due respect, lol.
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:16 (four years ago) link
... ah you see, this is why people think you're a troll.
I'm in favour of people saying unsupportable nonsense on this board, but appropriate responses to being called on it include "oh rly? thanks for pointing that out" or "lol fair enough" or "you may be right but I'm going to continue thinking things I've made up based on no longer being a teenager but wishing nothing else in the world had changed, it comforts me" rather than "everyone else is the problem, not me"
― blokes you can't rust (sic), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:22 (four years ago) link
no worries i expect to see some mathematical proof for the argument that popular music reached its apex in 1996 before the thread finishes
― Boles to the Wolds (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:25 (four years ago) link
man I remember the Napster days and how everyone on it was like "this is awesome, I'd gladly pay for this if I could"...like, this was the era of the $17.99 CD with one or two good songs on it, massive amounts of re-issues and greatest hits, etc etc. tempting to blame the consumer but you can't really fault us for feeling ripped off.
Oh, I've no doubt some of the consumers on Napster adopted a "try before you buy" approach. Perhaps some did honestly wish they could compensate the artist if they came across something awesome, but couldn't afford to. C'mon, though, let's face it, most just wanted something for nothing. When the likes of YSI/Megaupload/Mediafire etc. appeared and Bittorrent became a thing it was game over.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:28 (four years ago) link
gen z doesn't know what file-sharing is
― findom haddie (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:29 (four years ago) link
so it's weird blaming something that is no longer relevant wrt the main consumer demo of popular music for its current state
― findom haddie (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:30 (four years ago) link
gen z doesn't know what file-sharing is― findom haddie (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, April 10, 2019 11:29 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag PostPermalink
― findom haddie (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, April 10, 2019 11:29 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag PostPermalink
Irrelevant.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:34 (four years ago) link
The point is that it was (historically) the beginning of this whole mess, not that it's the current way people "consume" music.
I wouldn't be surprised if Gen Z were unaware as to what an expensive sounding, well recorded album sounded like either.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:36 (four years ago) link
there was a brief window of opportunity when bands like Metallica probably could have monitized downloading by interacting better with their fans, but the end result likely would have been the same. movie downloading does not seem to have made much of a dent on the bottom line, when superhero movies break a billion. I suppose if albums or new music felt like more of an event they might get similar results? The big names, Taylor Swift, Beyonce, Ariana Grande, that sort of act, seem to have really savvy teams that know how to balance conventional marketing with internet marketing and whatnot. The result though is kind of like hybrid, giant superstars hustling like grassroots acts.
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:38 (four years ago) link
fwiw my kids largely listen to music on YouTube.
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:39 (four years ago) link
When the likes of YSI/Megaupload/Mediafire etc. appeared and Bittorrent became a thing it was game over.
i doubt the vast majority of music consumers have ever used any of these.
― visiting, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:53 (four years ago) link
Um
I align myself far closer to Turrican’s viewpoint than not, although for far different reasons and like it’s more complicated etc., and I’m surprised at your responses, Brad!
To say that “music these days is shit because nobody’s getting paid” is wrong; music is The Way It Is These Days because nobody’s getting paid.
This means: US or UK will not produce another Mark Hollis or Scott Walker with this current model
This means: we thankfully we be spared the vast amounts of coked-out-for-months-label-is-obligated-to-release-it-anyway releases that Too Much Money creates
This means: musicians will find new and ingenuous ways of creating capital-amassing product
This means: we may be forced to reconcile ourselves to the fact that “the current sound of nihilism” is reflective of the current economic model— XXXTentacion and his resultant success is fully a product of the nihilism that “no money and no privilege” creates and music to reflect that
The fact is that most of the music you love, Brad, relies upon capital investment and/or a particular level of privilege to get it to a level that you’d find digestible— unless, like me, you still have a 90s kid hangover and a taste for DIY and thus listen pretty-much exclusively to Tinashe’s self-produced material over her subsequent material
Music has changed (not for better, not for worse, it’s just changed) to reflect the fact that those of us who aren’t surviving largely on Arctic Monkeys Arcade Fire trickle-down and/or government-assisted grants, we just can’t actually make a living at this any more.
And as a result there is an incredible skepticism toward, and commodification of, musicians/technicians/engineers who actually do know what the fuck they’re doing— it’s like if tweecore became 100% aggressively politicized, and any semblance of “agency” is taken as a signifier of wealth
Unless you’re like Amen Dunes and hide your scion status or whatever
Me, I’m firmly in Camp Cass, kind of: recorded music as a saleable asset is a mistake, and culturally a net negative, and created a false economy in place of something that is inherently meant to be social and hobbyist. (I’m also 100% Team Fund-The-Arts, too)
― flamboyant goon tie included, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 23:54 (four years ago) link
historically the introduction of 33⅓ was the beginning of this whole mess
― blokes you can't rust (sic), Thursday, 11 April 2019 00:13 (four years ago) link
player piano music iirc
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 11 April 2019 00:20 (four years ago) link
the error in turrican's theory is that we are saying that it equates file sharing with streaming because they are both digital distribution.... when file sharing is really the end of then not the beginning of now.in file sharing there's still the idea that music has a monetary value, that it's something that you possess... either by buying it or stealing it. so yeah it is relevant that gen z doesn't know file sharing because they don't even have the idea of any media ownership, it's just as Bowie said, a utility... like turning on a faucet
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 11 April 2019 00:31 (four years ago) link
It's both the end of then and the beginning of now - you cannot have an effect without a cause! The reason Gen Z wouldn't know file sharing is because of the changes to the industry brought on by... file sharing.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Thursday, 11 April 2019 00:36 (four years ago) link
Brought on by technological change
― findom haddie (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 11 April 2019 00:38 (four years ago) link
this is totally otm and infuriating
I was going to post something like this but decided against it because I assumed the response would largely be snark. You were smart to use two examples that are beloved by ILX; I was going to point out that under the current model we'll never see another Dark Side of the Moon, Rumours,, or any of the other coke-addled gajillion dollar records many of us still hold very dear
― Paul Ponzi, Thursday, 11 April 2019 00:40 (four years ago) link
we won't see something like them but we will see something equally amazing
― Dan S, Thursday, 11 April 2019 00:45 (four years ago) link
Yup. I mean, Daft Punk did the opposite of what many assumed they would on Random Access Memories. Rather than go for the kind of "in the box" production that already is sounding stagnant, they made an expensive, rich sounding blockbuster production.
Sadly, this is kinda an anomaly because - being a long-running act - Daft Punk had the money to be able to do it.
(x-post)
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Thursday, 11 April 2019 00:46 (four years ago) link
I'm worried we'll never see another Rigoletto
― Boles to the Wolds (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 11 April 2019 00:46 (four years ago) link
I know Josh is joking but it make u think
player piano music is a really weird artefact not replicated in history (as far as the top of my head is offering now):- consumption was still social (as with the innovation of cheap sheet music enabling popular songs to be heard at home and in the pub)- the "some musical ability" barrier of entry was removed- but while some homes and many pubs already had a regular piano, possibly handed down over generations, the player piano was a wildly expensive & worse-sounding upgrade/replacement to a piece of hardware that was already extremely expensive when new
kind of like if Pono had been the next step after the CD player, without an ipod in between, but it only played 96kbps mp3s
― blokes you can't rust (sic), Thursday, 11 April 2019 00:48 (four years ago) link
not replicated in history - except for Conlon Nancarrow
― Dan S, Thursday, 11 April 2019 00:50 (four years ago) link
― Dan S, Wednesday, April 10, 2019 8:45 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I have grave doubts
― Paul Ponzi, Thursday, 11 April 2019 00:51 (four years ago) link
Wasn't Sousa up in arms about sheet music being made widely available? It was Sousa, wasn't it?
― Paul Ponzi, Thursday, 11 April 2019 00:52 (four years ago) link
I bet he hated the fuck out of the player piano
― Paul Ponzi, Thursday, 11 April 2019 00:54 (four years ago) link
― Mr. Snrub
and harmonicas because the harmonica wasn't a musical instrument
also there were v-discs
i do wonder what bebop would have been like if not for the recording ban
― Jaki Liebowitz (rushomancy), Thursday, 11 April 2019 00:54 (four years ago) link
― Paul Ponzi, Wednesday, April 10, 2019 5:54 PM (two minutes ago)
<3
― Dan S, Thursday, 11 April 2019 00:58 (four years ago) link
the player piano was the 78, LP, cassette tape, cd, file sharing, streaming
― Dan S, Thursday, 11 April 2019 01:02 (four years ago) link
kurt vonnegut's first novel
― Jaki Liebowitz (rushomancy), Thursday, 11 April 2019 01:05 (four years ago) link
fgti i think you're totally otm and agree with you, the kinds of artists that receive support and the kinds of music that come from that support changes as the industry changes and revenues shrink and etc. i think about this all the time! i just don't think any of that is what turrican was or is saying. "for far different reasons and like it's more complicated" is pretty much the key difference to me
― jolene club remix (BradNelson), Thursday, 11 April 2019 01:33 (four years ago) link
Part of the reason I laud Mica Levi as much as I do is not just that her music is amazing but that it’s amazing “in this economy”— she’s found ways of working within tiny budgetary requirements (expensive hiring of Herbert on Jewellery included; she was a kid and it was her debut and clearly money well spent), and can also turn out magic when given the larger budget of a funded orchestra or a movie score with a budget for orchestra; she can also make the best album of the year (Feeling...) with just a computer and little else; see also other perennial fgti favourite Total Freedom
― flamboyant goon tie included, Thursday, 11 April 2019 01:41 (four years ago) link
i just don't think any of that is what turrican was or is saying.
Actually, fgti elaborated quite well on a lot of what I was/am saying.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Thursday, 11 April 2019 01:43 (four years ago) link
oh my god just shut up
― jolene club remix (BradNelson), Thursday, 11 April 2019 01:44 (four years ago) link
Hey, it's not my fault that that actually warranted clarification!
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Thursday, 11 April 2019 01:46 (four years ago) link
I loved Mica Levi's score to Under the Skin
― Dan S, Thursday, 11 April 2019 01:47 (four years ago) link
This is a shitty thing to say, but maybe musicians don’t deserve to make a living. Maybe it should be a hobby. But if that’s true, I don’t want to see some talentless pop stars making what they make, while quality living museums of folk-music knowledge get paid nothing. That’s not cool. But I’m not the one to decide. It’s good for people to know that, when they come out to see a show, these people are putting their whole life on the line to give their heart and soul. It means something more than money.”
But it's not like this is a new thing unique to this streaming era. Let's be real: "quality living museums of folk-music knowledge" have been broke since the invention of music, in the recording era there were a few who broke the rule and made bank but for every huge singer/songwriter that didn't need to worry about rent like say, Bob Dylan or Cat Stevens or Paul Simon there were thousands of musicians like say Jackson C. Frank, Ed Askew or Nick Drake that were on the other side of the dime.
It's not that musicians don't deserve to make a living, it's just that there's way too many of them and not everyone gets to be a star. You'll find this trend in virtually every entertainment branch since the beginning of time and I've never understood the attitude of acting all bitter and blame it on these damn kids and their pop interests.
― ✖✖✖ (Moka), Thursday, 11 April 2019 01:52 (four years ago) link
"Quality living museums of folk-music knowledge" do exist right now, except they are Club Mate-soused computer geeks who churn out hits for "talentless" pop stars, and are "museums" of the modern folk-music canon-- i.e., the pop charts.
Cass is himself an instrumentalist and he is lamenting a perceived economic decline of instrumental music, and rightfully so: he's the best songwriter, everybody knows it, and cherishes his albums, and yet still he underperforms at the ticket wicket, and it's a mystery as to why this is the case
― flamboyant goon tie included, Thursday, 11 April 2019 02:21 (four years ago) link
Lol can you imagine if back in 2004 or whatever, Cass McCombs started making the same decisions that M.Ward has been making for the past 15 years? And vice versa? Wow that'd be really interesting. Cass sells out and forms a chart-topping kinda-twee duo with like Michelle Williams and M.Ward keeps on chugging out various versions of Vincent and wondering in thinkpieces why people don't respect the folk canon? I don't own a single M.Ward or She & Him album but that dude surely owns property by now
― flamboyant goon tie included, Thursday, 11 April 2019 02:26 (four years ago) link
I should clarify, I really love Vincent and could probably sing every word of that album. I do like M. Ward and I'm glad he did good
― flamboyant goon tie included, Thursday, 11 April 2019 02:30 (four years ago) link
This is all, btw, weirdly kind of apropos, since a couple of weeks ago in New York I had dinner with a musician friend of mine who was lamenting the state of things (for non-financial reasons, tbf). But I asked him, figuring he would know, if he knew many indie people making a living from making music, and iirc the person he eventually came up with was ... Cass McCombs. He didn't say he was making *tons* of cash, and he still had to tour all the time, but my friend said said he apparently did make enough to at least pay his band OK, and while I don't know if *they* are necessarily making a particularly good living, it ... beats working?
We did talk about a couple of other bands we knew, and their biggest issue was getting older, having families etc., and generally being unable to keep up whatever momentum they once had, at least not enough to attract new (which is to say, younger) fans who could replace their peers, who were going through similar stages of getting older, hailing families and not going to shows or buying music as much.
I honestly don't know if there are necessarily any fewer bands able to sell out relatively big clubs or venues than there were one the getting was good (if it ever was), but the paradox is that you have to keep touring non-stop while simultaneously working on new stuff. Which is a pretty tricky position to be in. But yeah, at least when it comes to performance, there doesn't seem to be a particular dearth of acts able to sell out shows, at least in this city.
I kind of wish that article was about some acts I actually recognized. Like, I dunno, a band like Best Coast. They haven't put out an album in three or four years, and while modestly popular they weren't huge or anything. What has she been doing in the meantime? Was she successful enough not to need a day job?
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 11 April 2019 02:37 (four years ago) link
I like Best Coast - Bethany Cosentino
wonder what they're up to
― Dan S, Thursday, 11 April 2019 03:18 (four years ago) link
It’s like this
Bands that exist within public consciousness— like Best Coast— can and will pull in 20-30k a year, passively. It’s like a zeitgeist thing? A playlist thing? Best Coast had SONGS and they’re still being played and licensed and the shit they’ve been sync’d for is still being syndicated. She’s ok.
Cass doesn’t have that. I don’t have that— my passive income is in film scores. Basically if you can make hay in “music industry” for a couple years you might be able to surf the aftermath. You know who I’m always wondering about? Marnie Stern. How is her income?
Cass’s “problem” if you could call it that is that he seems to have ingrained “don’t sell out” architecture and it appeals to me (I paid for that shit on vinyl) but until he licenses “The Executioner’s Song” to Grey’s Anatomy he will continue to sell half as many tickets as he should
― flamboyant goon tie included, Thursday, 11 April 2019 03:27 (four years ago) link
<3 <3 ftgi, I hope you will have every success, your music is amazing, it's been a part of my life and of the lives of people I love
― Dan S, Thursday, 11 April 2019 03:37 (four years ago) link
*fgti*
― Dan S, Thursday, 11 April 2019 03:41 (four years ago) link
Xpost: isn’t Marnie Stern part of a late night show band? I remember seeing her like 4 years ago.
― ✖✖✖ (Moka), Thursday, 11 April 2019 04:58 (four years ago) link
Yeah just checked, apparently she’s been on the Seth Meyer’s 8G band since 2013 so I guess playing music does pay for her bills.
― ✖✖✖ (Moka), Thursday, 11 April 2019 04:59 (four years ago) link
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_8G_Band
― ✖✖✖ (Moka), Thursday, 11 April 2019 05:02 (four years ago) link
Musicians having to tour - oh, the humanity! Surely Ms. McCombs would be all in favour of touring, toiling at the coalface, getting his hands dirty, unlike a pampered talentless pop star? Apparently Cass McCombs is 41, I wonder what Edgar Broughton was doing when he was 41, or the bass player from Piblokto or whoever, I wonder how they were making ends meet.
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Thursday, 11 April 2019 07:07 (four years ago) link
player piano music is a really weird artefact not replicated in history (as far as the top of my head is offering now):
not on the consumer side but it's the basic principle behind MIDI
― Get Me Bodied (Extended Mix), Thursday, 11 April 2019 07:25 (four years ago) link
ha ha yes but player piano was almost entirely a consumer medium (bcz the rigged-up western-movie saloon bar pianos that played themselves, vs ppl gathering around & singing while one person worked the pedals, was even more expensive?)
― blokes you can't rust (sic), Thursday, 11 April 2019 07:33 (four years ago) link
the idealistic principle of the piano operator working the pedals while playing basic bass counterpoints,or melodic embellishments, over the top is SO close to shitty members’ club or corporate-dinner duos with one midi-kbd player dude and a singer in a cocktail dress though, 💗 the comparison
― blokes you can't rust (sic), Thursday, 11 April 2019 07:38 (four years ago) link
Didn't they used to pirate player piano rolls?
― koogs, Thursday, 11 April 2019 07:45 (four years ago) link
Apparently there was a big law suit because the player piano people didn't pay anything for the music. The rolls were deemed a mechanical device, not a copy as such.
But I had in mind people punching their own rolls, copies of an original.
― koogs, Thursday, 11 April 2019 07:52 (four years ago) link
music writers: indie musicians are struggling to make ends meet wow so sadalso music writers: this album sucks 3.1/10 better luck next time lol— Dent May (@dentmay) April 9, 2019
talking of timeless standards
― Terry Major-Ball Will Tell You (DJ Mencap), Thursday, 11 April 2019 13:01 (four years ago) link
Gaddis to thread Musicians deserve to make a living in that they are a subset of “everyone” obv
― mumsnet blvd (wins), Thursday, 11 April 2019 13:16 (four years ago) link
more like
music writers: indie musicians are struggling to make ends meet wow so sad
also music writers: please enjoy another 5000 word thinkpiece about Carly Rae Jepsen
― Paul Ponzi, Thursday, 11 April 2019 13:35 (four years ago) link
do the teens of today know what "file sharing" is? do they use "bittorrents"? are there any teens on this board?
― frogbs, Thursday, 11 April 2019 13:40 (four years ago) link
I actually do wonder about that - whether there's be actual cash-money benefit to musicians whose records don't sell much if they got more of the ink/bits that the big-ticket names get - if the notion of "importance" hadn't reached a point of being strictly correlated with success (or, very occasionally, "influence") - ultimately I don't think it's reasonable to say "musicians are poor because critics don't write about them," but I think the way the money gets spread around is not unrelated to whose stuff is seen as "counting"
xp to Paul P
― she carries a torch. two torches, actually (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Thursday, 11 April 2019 14:12 (four years ago) link
are there any teens on this board?
youngest person still posting turned 56 last month iirc
― she carries a torch. two torches, actually (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Thursday, 11 April 2019 14:13 (four years ago) link
music writers: indie musicians are struggling to make ends meet wow so sadalso music writers: please enjoy another 5000 word thinkpiece about Carly Rae Jepsenname them
― blokes you can't rust (sic), Thursday, 11 April 2019 14:15 (four years ago) link
Thread would have been much better if it had actually just been a poll of the jobs, tbh
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Thursday, 11 April 2019 14:18 (four years ago) link
The Magic Band were living on a cup of lentils a day when they were working on "Trout Mask Replica" but that's apropos of nothing as this thread is a nostalgiac look back to the days when Razorlight were given half a million and six months to hone their important second album.
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Thursday, 11 April 2019 14:19 (four years ago) link
name them
How much do you pay per word?
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 11 April 2019 14:19 (four years ago) link
name them― blokes you can't rust (sic)
― blokes you can't rust (sic)
buckle up old friend
https://medium.com/@embirdened/everything-critical-on-carly-rae-jepsen-5b0f13b6be62https://www.theverge.com/2015/8/18/9173525/carly-rae-jepsen-emotion-albumhttps://newrepublic.com/article/136360/case-carly-rae-jepsenhttps://themuse.jezebel.com/this-is-why-carly-rae-jepsen-isnt-more-famous-1826070349https://www.npr.org/2018/10/05/646424840/carly-rae-jepsen-is-the-21st-centurys-queen-of-a-million-kingdomshttps://www.theawl.com/2015/08/notes-on-21st-century-mystic-carly-rae-jepsen/
― she carries a torch. two torches, actually (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Thursday, 11 April 2019 14:30 (four years ago) link
ouch, I bet that hurts, sic
― Paul Ponzi, Thursday, 11 April 2019 14:38 (four years ago) link
but for every huge singer/songwriter that didn't need to worry about rent like say, Bob Dylan or Cat Stevens or Paul Simon there were thousands of musicians like say Jackson C. Frank, Ed Askew or Nick Drake that were on the other side of the dime.
And yet I have a difficult time imagining any of those people bagging my groceries at Trader Joe’s.
I don’t play music but I have many friends that do, and I don’t think any of them are under any allusions about being rock stars or about “making it.” I think they’d merely like to be spared the indignity of requiring a side hustle. The artists you name, afaik, had contracts, were paid advances, generally sustained themselves as musicians. Jackson C Frank wrote for other artists; Nick Drake made three records for a major label. Ed Askew is maybe the odd man out here (and ESP were obviously notorious for ripping off artists) but even he was probably paid more per show than whoever is opening for Lambchop or the Mountain Goats right now
― Paul Ponzi, Thursday, 11 April 2019 14:43 (four years ago) link
NPR is the only link there that qualifies as music press though? but even if they were, what is this meant to prove? That "music writers" are ignoring indie musicians in favor of [whatever category CJR falls into] and thereby consigning indie musicians to poverty?
fwiw, in Ponzi's remixed meme, the first party is Pitchfork but afaict they have never written a 5000-word thinkpiece about Jepsen
― rob, Thursday, 11 April 2019 14:45 (four years ago) link
Credits per the liner notes of Emotion.Music:Noonie Bao – backing vocals (track 1)CJ Baran – all instruments (tracks 2, 9, 17)Rostam Batmanglij – keyboards, piano (track 11)Ajay Bhattacharyya – synths (track 10)Peter Carlsson – solina (track 3)Samuel Dixon – electric guitar, acoustic guitar, bass guitar, synths (track 7)Carl Falk – instruments, guitars (track 8)Ethan Farmer – bass (tracks 5, 12)Wojtek Goral – saxophone (track 1)Oscar Görres – backing vocals (track 1)Zachary Gray – bass, synths (track 10)Jeff Halatrax – drums, synths, keyboards, bass (track 3)Svante Halldin – violin (track 4)Oscar Holter – backing vocals (track 1)Devonté Hynes – guitars (track 5)Wouter Janssen – all instruments (track 14)Carly Rae Jepsen – lead vocals (all tracks); backing vocals (track 1)Jakob Jerlström – backing vocals (track 1)Tommy King – keyboards (track 12)Daniel Farrugia - keyboards, piano (track 5)Greg Kurstin – bass, drums, guitar, keyboards (track 6)Katerina Loules – backing vocals (track 14)Lukas "Lulou" Loules – all instruments (track 14)Roger Manning, Jr. – synthesizers (track 5)Mattman & Robin – backing vocals, bass, drums, percussion (tracks 1, 4, 15); guitars (tracks 1, 4); vocoder, synths (track 15)Missy Modell – backing vocals (track 3)Daniel Nigro – guitar (track 12)Emre Ramazanoglu – synths, percussion, drums (track 7)Rami – instruments, bass (track 8)Ariel Rechtshaid – synthesizers, percussion (track 5)Sibel Redžep – backing vocals (track 1)Ben Romans – all instruments (tracks 2, 9)Ludvig Söderberg – backing vocals (track 1)Marlene Strand – backing vocals (track 8)Peter Svensson – drums, synths, keyboards, bass, guitar (track 3)Greg Wells – drums, synths (track 13)Production:Henrique Andrade – engineering assistance (track 7)CJ Baran – production, programming (tracks 2, 9, 17)Rostam Batmanglij – production, engineering, drum and synth programming (track 11)Ajay Bhattacharyya – production, recording, drum programming (track 10)Mikaelin 'Blue' Bluespruce – recording (track 5)Mario Borgatta – mixing assistance (track 10)Julian Burg – engineering (track 6)Martin Cooke – engineering assistance (track 10)Rich Costey – mixing (track 10)Tom Coyne – mastering (tracks 1–4, 8)John DeBold – engineering assistance (tracks 5, 12)Samuel Dixon – programming (track 7)Micky Evelyn – engineering assistance (track 5)Eric Eylands – engineering assistance (track 3)Carl Falk – production, programming (track 8)Nicholas Fournier – engineering assistance (track 10)Kyle Gaffney – engineering assistance (track 14)Chris Galland – mixing assistance (tracks 6, 12)Serban Ghenea – mixing (tracks 1–4, 8)Zachary Gray – production, recording (track 10)Gene Grimaldi – mastering (tracks 6–7, 9–17)Josh Gudwin – vocal production, vocal recording (track 7)Jeff Halatrax – production, engineering, programming (track 3)John Hanes – mix engineering (tracks 1–4, 8)The High Street – production (track 7)Devonté Hynes – production, programming (track 5)Chris Kasych – engineering (tracks 11–12)Greg Kurstin – production, engineering (track 6)Lukas "Lulou" Loules – production, engineering, mixing (track 14)Eric Madrid – mixing (tracks 7, 13, 15)Manny Marroquin – mixing (tracks 6, 12)Mattman & Robin – production (tracks 1, 4, 15); programming (tracks 1, 15)Mitch McCarthy – mixing (tracks 16–17)Scott Moore – engineering (track 4)Daniel Nigro – additional production, programming (track 12)Robert Orton – mixing (tracks 5, 11)Alex Pasco – engineering (track 6)Noah Passovoy – additional vocal recording (track 15)Emre Ramazanoglu – programming (track 7)Rami – production, programming (track 8)Ariel Rechtshaid – production, programming (tracks 5, 12); recording (track 5); engineering, drum programming (track 12)Ben Romans – production, programming (tracks 2, 9)Will Sandalls – engineering (track 16)Matt Schaeffer – engineering assistance (tracks 14, 16)Ike Schultz – mixing assistance (tracks 6, 12)Wesley Seidman – recording (track 5)Kyle Shearer – production (track 16)Shellback – production (track 1)Laura Sisk – additional engineering (track 12)Stint – production (track 10)Shane Stoneback – engineering (track 11)Peter Svensson – production, engineering, programming (track 3)Juan Carlos Torrado – engineering assistance (tracks 3, 17)Randy Urbanski – engineering (track 4)Jaime Velez – engineering assistance (track 3)Robert Vosgien – mastering (track 5)Vincent Vu – mixing assistance (tracks 7, 13, 15)Greg Wells – production, programming (track 13)Wired Masters – mastering (track 14)Business:Scott "Scooter" Braun – executive production, A&R, managementGreg Carr – marketing coordinationLisa DiAngelo – publicityJohn Ehmann – A&RDavid Gray – A&RPamela Gurley – legal representationBrad Haugen – marketing, creative directionLaura Hess – management, marketingDyana Kass – marketingAllison Kaye – managementSteve Kopec – managementEvan Lamberg – A&RKenny Meiselas – legal representationKatherine Neiss – A&R coordinationOlivia Zaro – A&RPackaging:Jessica Severn – art direction and designKarla Welch – stylingMatthew Welch – photography
Music:Noonie Bao – backing vocals (track 1)CJ Baran – all instruments (tracks 2, 9, 17)Rostam Batmanglij – keyboards, piano (track 11)Ajay Bhattacharyya – synths (track 10)Peter Carlsson – solina (track 3)Samuel Dixon – electric guitar, acoustic guitar, bass guitar, synths (track 7)Carl Falk – instruments, guitars (track 8)Ethan Farmer – bass (tracks 5, 12)Wojtek Goral – saxophone (track 1)Oscar Görres – backing vocals (track 1)Zachary Gray – bass, synths (track 10)Jeff Halatrax – drums, synths, keyboards, bass (track 3)Svante Halldin – violin (track 4)Oscar Holter – backing vocals (track 1)Devonté Hynes – guitars (track 5)Wouter Janssen – all instruments (track 14)Carly Rae Jepsen – lead vocals (all tracks); backing vocals (track 1)Jakob Jerlström – backing vocals (track 1)Tommy King – keyboards (track 12)Daniel Farrugia - keyboards, piano (track 5)Greg Kurstin – bass, drums, guitar, keyboards (track 6)Katerina Loules – backing vocals (track 14)Lukas "Lulou" Loules – all instruments (track 14)Roger Manning, Jr. – synthesizers (track 5)Mattman & Robin – backing vocals, bass, drums, percussion (tracks 1, 4, 15); guitars (tracks 1, 4); vocoder, synths (track 15)Missy Modell – backing vocals (track 3)Daniel Nigro – guitar (track 12)Emre Ramazanoglu – synths, percussion, drums (track 7)Rami – instruments, bass (track 8)Ariel Rechtshaid – synthesizers, percussion (track 5)Sibel Redžep – backing vocals (track 1)Ben Romans – all instruments (tracks 2, 9)Ludvig Söderberg – backing vocals (track 1)Marlene Strand – backing vocals (track 8)Peter Svensson – drums, synths, keyboards, bass, guitar (track 3)Greg Wells – drums, synths (track 13)Production:Henrique Andrade – engineering assistance (track 7)CJ Baran – production, programming (tracks 2, 9, 17)Rostam Batmanglij – production, engineering, drum and synth programming (track 11)Ajay Bhattacharyya – production, recording, drum programming (track 10)Mikaelin 'Blue' Bluespruce – recording (track 5)Mario Borgatta – mixing assistance (track 10)Julian Burg – engineering (track 6)Martin Cooke – engineering assistance (track 10)Rich Costey – mixing (track 10)Tom Coyne – mastering (tracks 1–4, 8)John DeBold – engineering assistance (tracks 5, 12)Samuel Dixon – programming (track 7)Micky Evelyn – engineering assistance (track 5)Eric Eylands – engineering assistance (track 3)Carl Falk – production, programming (track 8)Nicholas Fournier – engineering assistance (track 10)Kyle Gaffney – engineering assistance (track 14)Chris Galland – mixing assistance (tracks 6, 12)Serban Ghenea – mixing (tracks 1–4, 8)Zachary Gray – production, recording (track 10)Gene Grimaldi – mastering (tracks 6–7, 9–17)Josh Gudwin – vocal production, vocal recording (track 7)Jeff Halatrax – production, engineering, programming (track 3)John Hanes – mix engineering (tracks 1–4, 8)The High Street – production (track 7)Devonté Hynes – production, programming (track 5)Chris Kasych – engineering (tracks 11–12)Greg Kurstin – production, engineering (track 6)Lukas "Lulou" Loules – production, engineering, mixing (track 14)Eric Madrid – mixing (tracks 7, 13, 15)Manny Marroquin – mixing (tracks 6, 12)Mattman & Robin – production (tracks 1, 4, 15); programming (tracks 1, 15)Mitch McCarthy – mixing (tracks 16–17)Scott Moore – engineering (track 4)Daniel Nigro – additional production, programming (track 12)Robert Orton – mixing (tracks 5, 11)Alex Pasco – engineering (track 6)Noah Passovoy – additional vocal recording (track 15)Emre Ramazanoglu – programming (track 7)Rami – production, programming (track 8)Ariel Rechtshaid – production, programming (tracks 5, 12); recording (track 5); engineering, drum programming (track 12)Ben Romans – production, programming (tracks 2, 9)Will Sandalls – engineering (track 16)Matt Schaeffer – engineering assistance (tracks 14, 16)Ike Schultz – mixing assistance (tracks 6, 12)Wesley Seidman – recording (track 5)Kyle Shearer – production (track 16)Shellback – production (track 1)Laura Sisk – additional engineering (track 12)Stint – production (track 10)Shane Stoneback – engineering (track 11)Peter Svensson – production, engineering, programming (track 3)Juan Carlos Torrado – engineering assistance (tracks 3, 17)Randy Urbanski – engineering (track 4)Jaime Velez – engineering assistance (track 3)Robert Vosgien – mastering (track 5)Vincent Vu – mixing assistance (tracks 7, 13, 15)Greg Wells – production, programming (track 13)Wired Masters – mastering (track 14)Business:Scott "Scooter" Braun – executive production, A&R, managementGreg Carr – marketing coordinationLisa DiAngelo – publicityJohn Ehmann – A&RDavid Gray – A&RPamela Gurley – legal representationBrad Haugen – marketing, creative directionLaura Hess – management, marketingDyana Kass – marketingAllison Kaye – managementSteve Kopec – managementEvan Lamberg – A&RKenny Meiselas – legal representationKatherine Neiss – A&R coordinationOlivia Zaro – A&RPackaging:Jessica Severn – art direction and designKarla Welch – stylingMatthew Welch – photography
This is not including her touring crew for the album, so if you think about it, CRJ is making way more musicians and music-related employees make ends meet and pay rent than any of those indie musicians.
― ✖✖✖ (Moka), Thursday, 11 April 2019 14:45 (four years ago) link
Or capitalism, for that matter. If anything, the exponential swell of recorded music in the internet era has not been accompanied by an analogous increase in audience. There's a human limit to the amount of acts one can follow, even within a given sub-genre, even for crazed obsessives who revel in the glut such as ourselves. This is equally true for other art forms, which in some sense means that the notion of 'audience' is simultaneously more and less precious than ever. Most of today's artworks exist in a quasi vacuum, and it's not going to change any time soon. Much is and will be consigned to oblivion even prior to its inception, regardless of quality (there's no such thing as a bottomless archive).
― pomenitul, Thursday, 11 April 2019 14:47 (four years ago) link
― ✖✖✖ (Moka), Thursday, April 11, 2019 10:45 AM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
yes, because otherwise the "artists" that make up that legal department and four people handing "management" would surely be destitute
― Paul Ponzi, Thursday, 11 April 2019 14:52 (four years ago) link
The Magic Band were living on a cup of lentils a day when they were working on "Trout Mask Replica" but that's apropos of nothing
I think this was more a manipulative cult leader head-trip tactic on the part of the good Captain than an actual economic reality but if it prevented them becoming Razorlight it was worth it
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 11 April 2019 14:53 (four years ago) link
Sometimes I think about Freedy Johnston selling that farm to feed the band...that land would be worth so much money now
as a carly rae jepsen thinkpiece writer who somehow also manages to write about indie musicians struggling to make ends meet, i fucking hate this conversation
― american bradass (BradNelson), Thursday, 11 April 2019 14:57 (four years ago) link
Maybe somebody could organize a benefit project for struggling pop musicians, call it "Band Aid" or something
― Boles to the Wolds (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 11 April 2019 14:59 (four years ago) link
irl lol
― flamboyant goon tie included, Thursday, 11 April 2019 15:04 (four years ago) link
How many Christmases have bands missed because they were on the road? Did they even know?
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 11 April 2019 15:05 (four years ago) link
Tonight thank god it's them instead of U2
― Boles to the Wolds (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 11 April 2019 15:06 (four years ago) link
U2 should give out grants, otherwise the next Pete Yorn could fall through the cracks.
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 11 April 2019 15:08 (four years ago) link
Possibly, though Beefheart himsekf was still relying on food parcels from his granny!
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Thursday, 11 April 2019 15:08 (four years ago) link
Making a living in the sense we are discussing is also related to the lack of affordable housing in big cities.
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 11 April 2019 15:10 (four years ago) link
u2 should pay their taxes moreike
― arli$$ and bible black (bizarro gazzara), Thursday, 11 April 2019 15:10 (four years ago) link
ouch, I bet that hurts, sicwhere is Jia Tolentino’s piece about indie musicians struggling to make money, and when did she quit writing about Trump committing sexual assault and about youth vaping and Brett Kavanaugh and Miss America and novels and abortion law?where is Ryan Bird’s piece about indie musicians struggling to make money, and where does he get paid to write about music?I only checked the first and last btw, perhaps all the other pieces contained links to paid writers’ sad thoughts about indie musicians
― blokes you can't rust (sic), Thursday, 11 April 2019 15:10 (four years ago) link
Credits per the liner notes of Emotion.
two different people are credited with "all instruments" for track 14... seems fishy to me... CRJ needs to tighten up her oversight of the payroll.
― One Eye Open, Thursday, 11 April 2019 15:12 (four years ago) link
carly rae jepsen is a tax-avoidance scheme CONFIRMED
― arli$$ and bible black (bizarro gazzara), Thursday, 11 April 2019 15:14 (four years ago) link
I think some of capitalism's best work is ruthlessly exploiting middle class indie kids and making them miserable!
― calzino, Thursday, 11 April 2019 15:14 (four years ago) link
the Beefheart side-quest in this thread is delightful
― she carries a torch. two torches, actually (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Thursday, 11 April 2019 15:24 (four years ago) link
expecting a tweet with the "[x]: statement / [also x]: contradictory statement" construct to accurately refer to the same people is as futile in this instance as it always is
― Terry Major-Ball Will Tell You (DJ Mencap), Thursday, 11 April 2019 15:24 (four years ago) link
at any rate, sic, the point isn't at all that the same writers are doing exactly this dual thing. that's not how the "___:. also ____:" trope works. the point is that there are many, many more long pieces about e.g. carly rae jepsen et al than there are about e.g. cass mccombs, but when the mccombs piece runs, people lament the state of the biz. part of the state of the biz is it supports the already-successful & devotes whole pieces to their sales, the nature of their popularity, etc., and doesn't leave a lot of room for "look, you've never heard of cass mccombs, but his music's tremendous, here's a long piece about his new one, we're giving it as much ink as we gave carly rae because it's at least as good"
the core complaint here is, I think, that the broadly-considered "music press" (meaningless concept almost in 2019) is more the entertainment business press, and its priorities involve the maintenance of a sort of hierarchy, though I don't like the word "hierarchy" in this context. an order, anyway. that order involves more attention to the people whose merit has already been demonstrated by their having become famous. this isn't really a new complaint, but I think it is one that's been hand-waved a lot since the 80s or so
xp right!
― she carries a torch. two torches, actually (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Thursday, 11 April 2019 15:31 (four years ago) link
“some people say one thing, but a completely different group of people say an entirely unrelated thing” is a pretty pointless call-out
― blokes you can't rust (sic), Thursday, 11 April 2019 15:44 (four years ago) link
WOW this is an excellent take would buy a t-shirt
― flamboyant goon tie included, Thursday, 11 April 2019 15:45 (four years ago) link
it's cool man, we've all gotta eat
― Paul Ponzi, Thursday, 11 April 2019 15:59 (four years ago) link
glad someone other than me brought this up. I know people who would be making a comfortable middle-class living from music ... if they lived places that weren't the SF Bay Area/NYC/LA ... but, if they lived places other than where they do, they would be way less likely to have the income/opportunities that they currently do.
Re: Carly Rae This is not including her touring crew for the album, so if you think about it, CRJ is making way more musicians and music-related employees make ends meet and pay rent than any of those indie musicians.
This is verging on the logic for giving tax breaks to large corporations -- it's definitely "trickle down theory" for sure
― sarahell, Thursday, 11 April 2019 16:21 (four years ago) link
I feel like one of the key factors in "being able to devote enough time to one's musical career: y or n" is rent control -- granted, I probably spend way more time asking way more people about how much they pay in rent (or for mortgage/taxes/etc) than most people do -- so maybe I'm "too close" ?
― sarahell, Thursday, 11 April 2019 16:25 (four years ago) link
weird how no one ever mentions that one of the major factors driving down the value of musician labor is the fact that so many people are willing, even enthusiastic, enough about doing it that they will do it for free. capital exploits this. They don't need to increase anyone's wages because there is literally a vast labor pool that will volunteer to exploit themselves and (perhaps after a little conniving/false promises/duplicitous business practices) give away their goods for free. this is not true of any other kind of labor I can think of.
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 11 April 2019 16:34 (four years ago) link
that's why there will never be a strike or a meaningful union - because the creation of music historically has always been a communal/hobbyist practice that is open to pretty much anyone and that people do for the sheer enjoyment of it. the only real analogy is sports - where pro athletes are the equivalent of major label superstars.
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 11 April 2019 16:36 (four years ago) link
all creative fields which contain unpaid internships
― findom haddie (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 11 April 2019 16:38 (four years ago) link
superhero IP contractors
― blokes you can't rust (sic), Thursday, 11 April 2019 16:38 (four years ago) link
pro athletes have unions that collectively bargain and they strike all the time.
― to halve and half not (voodoo chili), Thursday, 11 April 2019 16:45 (four years ago) link
well, more often, the owners lock them out all the time, but there have been strikes in all major sports
now I'm remembering why I stopped posting
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 11 April 2019 16:47 (four years ago) link
so many people are willing, even enthusiastic, enough about doing it that they will do it for free ... this is not true of any other kind of labor I can think of.
visual artistswritersfilmmakersfashion designpolitical activismactorscomediansmodels...
― sarahell, Thursday, 11 April 2019 16:57 (four years ago) link
oh wait -- I thought of another one -- parents
― sarahell, Thursday, 11 April 2019 16:58 (four years ago) link
the thing is, this gets into the issue of what constitutes labor and whether all labor should be "monetized" or "transactional"
― sarahell, Thursday, 11 April 2019 16:59 (four years ago) link
also I realized I forgot to post "lol @ Cass being from Concord" upthread
― sarahell, Thursday, 11 April 2019 17:01 (four years ago) link
the fact that people incubate fetuses for 9 months without getting paid a living wage just blows my mind sometimes ...
― sarahell, Thursday, 11 April 2019 17:12 (four years ago) link
in their own bodies? then they deal with having to handle these helpless creatures' filth and clean up after them, and listen to them make painful high-pitched noises .... idk, like, being a musician and not getting paid makes way more sense to me, at least.
― sarahell, Thursday, 11 April 2019 17:14 (four years ago) link
― Οὖτις, Thursday, April 11, 2019 12:34 PM (forty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
this is otm, see my 'strikebreaker' comment upthread
can you explain what this means to us non-west coast people? Is it a wealthy suburb or something, or...?
― Paul Ponzi, Thursday, 11 April 2019 17:18 (four years ago) link
it's a really boring middle-class suburb -- prob when Cass was growing up it was pretty white and Republican (though it has gotten more liberal in recent years) -- it was immortalized in a Negativland song from one of their earliest albums
― sarahell, Thursday, 11 April 2019 17:25 (four years ago) link
the "chorus" was "very stupid, very stupid, very stupid and dumb"
― sarahell, Thursday, 11 April 2019 17:26 (four years ago) link
That sums it up, I guess! Now I wanna hear that Negativand song.
― Paul Ponzi, Thursday, 11 April 2019 18:00 (four years ago) link
It's available for free
― sarahell, Thursday, 11 April 2019 18:01 (four years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLQ293VZzRc
― sarahell, Thursday, 11 April 2019 18:03 (four years ago) link
They are stealing the very food out of the mouths of indie musicians.
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Thursday, 11 April 2019 18:03 (four years ago) link
wait - are you talking about Negativland or babies?
― sarahell, Thursday, 11 April 2019 18:05 (four years ago) link
Both.
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Thursday, 11 April 2019 18:08 (four years ago) link
ok i will let them know
― sarahell, Thursday, 11 April 2019 18:10 (four years ago) link
1. I'm pretty sure that The Magic Band would rather they hadn't been living on a cup of lentils a day, although I'm quite sure a lot of the stories surrounding that album is just bullshit in the name of good old rock mythology.
2. Where did you get that figure from? Loveless cost £250,000 - for some reason I doubt the second Razorlight album cost that much.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Thursday, 11 April 2019 18:17 (four years ago) link
she can also make the best album of the year (Feeling...) with just a computer and little else; see also other perennial fgti favourite Total Freedom
I love Total Freedom and think he's a legend. I believe he also works at Chipotle.
― change display name (Jordan), Thursday, 11 April 2019 18:21 (four years ago) link
1. I'm sure but, you know, there wasn't that much money around, not like the 1990s.2. You think I know how much the second Razorlight album cost to record?
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Thursday, 11 April 2019 18:21 (four years ago) link
(xp)
I'm pretty sure that The Magic Band would rather they hadn't been living on a cup of lentils a day
uh, that's kinda the point of the post as I read it?
― sarahell, Thursday, 11 April 2019 18:22 (four years ago) link
I've just realized Razorlight weren't around in the 1990s!
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Thursday, 11 April 2019 18:22 (four years ago) link
i didn't know razorlight from a fleshlight -- so I googled them, and it said they formed in 2002
― sarahell, Thursday, 11 April 2019 18:23 (four years ago) link
I thought I'd get that in before I'm schooled on the exact date they were formed and the recording costs on their sophomore album.
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Thursday, 11 April 2019 18:24 (four years ago) link
i think it's also really important for someone to inform us exactly what type of lentils the Trout Mask musicians were eating ... probably more interesting than razorslight
― sarahell, Thursday, 11 April 2019 18:25 (four years ago) link
*second album.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Thursday, 11 April 2019 18:27 (four years ago) link
can't believe no one has made a Razorlight vs. A Cup of Lentils (T/S) thread yet
― sarahell, Thursday, 11 April 2019 18:27 (four years ago) link
(xp) That's what I said.
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Thursday, 11 April 2019 18:28 (four years ago) link
Oh, Razorlight were absolute garbage - but an absolute garbage band who somehow managed to have three Top 5 albums and 5 Top 10 hits in their very short lifespan, so I guess they did alright for themselves. I don't believe for one second that any of their albums cost half a million to make, though.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Thursday, 11 April 2019 18:31 (four years ago) link
pretty sure they ran on beans tbh xps
― kolarov spring (NickB), Thursday, 11 April 2019 18:32 (four years ago) link
Actually it might have been a cup of rice, rather than a cup of lentils.
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Thursday, 11 April 2019 18:32 (four years ago) link
... nah, definitely (maybe) lentils.
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Thursday, 11 April 2019 18:34 (four years ago) link
rice vs. beans
― sarahell, Thursday, 11 April 2019 18:36 (four years ago) link
mitigating factor: Trout Mask Replica was recorded over the month of Lent.
― bendy, Thursday, 11 April 2019 18:52 (four years ago) link
"Where did you get that figure from? Loveless cost £250,000 - for some reason I doubt the second Razorlight album cost that much."
Perhaps, but a quarter of a million pounds in 1990-91 and a quarter of a million in 2006 are two different things.
― does it look like i'm here (jon123), Friday, 12 April 2019 16:55 (four years ago) link
Also, Razorlight were on the very huge Vertigo and MBV were on Creation Records, which hadn't been sold to Sony yet (as a direct result of the final bill for the Loveless sessions).
― does it look like i'm here (jon123), Friday, 12 April 2019 16:56 (four years ago) link
Second Razorlight LP was recorded at British Grove Studios by Chris Thomas, neither of those things are cheap.
― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Friday, 12 April 2019 17:16 (four years ago) link
well tbf, the inflation rate between 1991 and 2006 wasn't all that much, £250k in 1991 was £370k in 2006. e.g. compare to 1971 and 1986 (£1.2m!)
― Colonel Poo, Friday, 12 April 2019 17:17 (four years ago) link
― sarahell, Thursday, April 11, 2019 1:23 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
this could be a painful mixup
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 12 April 2019 17:30 (four years ago) link
Even accounting for the inflation differences, choice of producer and choice of studio, I'm utterly unconvinced the second Razorlight album cost that much.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Friday, 12 April 2019 17:48 (four years ago) link
It didn't, so can we stop talking about the cost of the second Razorlight album?
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Friday, 12 April 2019 17:50 (four years ago) link
facts aside i would like to point out that i was otm in this thread
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 12 April 2019 17:52 (four years ago) link
Young musicians without a rich family should expect their unheard music to remain unheard regardless of its quality. Otherwise, expect the time/cost/effort/thought/creativity/travel/etc invested into the work to be a complete waste.
― billstevejim, Friday, 12 April 2019 18:05 (four years ago) link
sad but true
― Paul Ponzi, Friday, 12 April 2019 18:27 (four years ago) link
expect the time/cost/effort/thought/creativity/travel/etc invested into the work to be a complete waste.
yr a complete waste
― Οὖτις, Friday, 12 April 2019 19:22 (four years ago) link
making music is fun!
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 12 April 2019 19:31 (four years ago) link
Beats working for a living, er....
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Friday, 12 April 2019 19:32 (four years ago) link
I would estimate that the vast majority of musicians that do manage to make money use PR, or have a label that does. This is another expensive stumbling block that you probably need to get wide coverage in the age of musical saturation.
― mirostones, Friday, 12 April 2019 19:48 (four years ago) link
https://www.ludwig-van.com/toronto/2019/04/09/liszts-ten-composers-who-had-day-jobs/
Classical version. The John Cage one is kind of interesting I think.
― mirostones, Saturday, 13 April 2019 12:25 (four years ago) link
Indeed, especially as Cornelius Cardew also worked as a graphic designer.
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Saturday, 13 April 2019 12:33 (four years ago) link
the idea that making music is a "waste" if it doesn't make money or even if it's never heard is so wrong to me, playing music with people is a joy, especially playing with people and improvising, moments that aren't documented or meant to be....it's such a sad, joyless way to view life, if you spent an afternoon painting and it was never sold was that a waste?
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, 13 April 2019 12:44 (four years ago) link
I don’t work much with rock acts as there isn’t that much to pick from in my city and travelling costs for bands always send the budgets to the moon but I do work with djs and electronic producers and I can tell you it’s very profitable at least on those music genres over here. I don’t know about the culture in the US but at least in Europe and Latinamerica almost every decent dj I know is constantly touring, even the lesser known ones have a fee of 1k + flights and acommodation per night and they don’t split the money with anyone else. I’ve paid 25k for djs (at those levels they do split money with their booking agency) that are booked for practically every weekend of the year and they even charge more on bigger venues.
Since they’re constantly touring they don’t waste much money and there’s no need to be paying rent in a stupidly expensive city like New York. It’s better to just buy an apartment or a house in a less expensive city to go relax to on your downtime.
― ✖✖✖ (Moka), Saturday, 13 April 2019 13:48 (four years ago) link
The Eric Whitacre one is perfect.
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Saturday, 13 April 2019 13:53 (four years ago) link
it's such a sad, joyless way to view life, if you spent an afternoon painting and it was never sold was that a waste?
No. But what if no one ever looks at it? Is that a waste? I guess it depends on why you're painting.
― Paul Ponzi, Saturday, 13 April 2019 14:12 (four years ago) link
Indeed. If a painting is commissioned and not sold or even looked at, then it has been a waste in the long term, no matter how enjoyable the process of creating the work was in the first place. If the work wasn't commissioned, then I suppose the artist gets the self-indulgent thrill of creating something, but only in the short term. Of course, lack of recognition and lack of financial success can be demoralising and lead to apathy and a "what's the point?" attitude.
Fwiw, when a band/artist is under a recording contract, all albums can be considered commissioned regardless of how much or how little creative freedom the artist has. They are commissioned as products to be sold and to be heard. If they are not heard and not sold, then it has all been a waste of time, regardless of how much or how little the artist has enjoyed making the record.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Saturday, 13 April 2019 14:28 (four years ago) link
Don't even know where to start with that pile of garbage tbh.
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Saturday, 13 April 2019 14:34 (four years ago) link
? arli$$ and bible black (bizarro gazzara)
michael nesmith's first solo album was a tax avoidance scheme, it's pretty good though i do like magnetic south better
don joyce isn't stealing any food from anybody's mouths, he's been dead since 2015
the captain beefheart poverty stories i know are the ones from "the real frank zappa book" were zappa talks about him and don living on giant jars of peanut butter, and also going to a local diner for chili and spending more money on the jukebox than on the chili
bob dylan, of course, got his start as a folk-singer by stealing the record collection of everybody in the village, maybe that's a romantic myth too, i don't know. avoiding that simple truth probably had a lot to do with dylan becoming such a good storyteller, at least.
that website didn't want me to read about how classical composers made money because they aren't making money from my reading that
has anybody come right out and said that capitalism is bad and we should get rid of it? because that's what this thread seems to mostly be dancing around
― Jaki Liebowitz (rushomancy), Saturday, 13 April 2019 14:35 (four years ago) link
'Politician' is the ultimate side hustle.
― pomenitul, Saturday, 13 April 2019 14:36 (four years ago) link
I just typed about 1000 words but I decided against posting it. Summarized:
- most countries aside from the US and UK offer subsidies for their musicians, either directly or in the form of employment opportunities (funding venues and festivals)- 3% of musicians don't need any help and they're just Grimes or Robyn and it just works, they roll up and people will pay anything to see them do anything, it's not hype, it's just talent and star-power- 22% of musicians do need the help and the hype, you have to tell people that Lucky Dragons are coming to town and that it's really important and worthwhile to go see them, etc- it totally fucking sucks to be part of that 22% and to be out on tour and find that the promoter has just opted not to invest the time and take a loss on the show, and you drove three hours to play to six people, the show just isn't listed in the papers or even at the venue, this happens to people all the time- 75% of musicians simply do not have a long-term viable career available to them- 75% of musicians make music that is fine but is also inessential; it doesn't fulfill a baseline requirement of being worth the listener's investment of time and/or money- 75% of musicians, when faced with this reality, try and find other ways of making their music work. Sometimes this means developing a magnetic Twitter presence which attracts more listeners than the music itself justifies. Sometimes this means revamping your sound over and over again until you figure out the right way to do it (Dev Hynes, i.e.) Sometimes this means going online and shit-talking other musicians bitterly, tweeting shit like "Porches is a pedophile" because the US is still Kissinger Country, creating chaos in the lives of your "competitors" is surely profitable (or at least pleasurable to American brains). Sometimes people in this 75% bracket will do interviews with Vulture and blame falling revenues as a result for why they simply can't turn a profit anymore (and they're right, but lamenting this fact doesn't turn you a profit.) Sometimes people just decide to go whole-hog and embrace Patreon and Kickstarter-- in many ways, I have to respect Amanda Palmer for being the most quintessentially American musician for, somehow, turning a monstrous profit with such little talent or personal magnetism.- Or sometimes this just means embracing the fact that your music is your hobby, or a part-time job-- just because you don't have a career-in-music available to you does not mean that your music isn't valuable and worthwhile and necessary. I've stated here and likely elsewhere that all my favourite musicians in my city have day-jobs. My favourite songwriter is a stonemason. My favourite pianist works in telecom. My favourite guitarist.. is a guitarist, but he primarily does side-man work.- lastly, I don't know how it is for other people, but I write songs to impress my boyfriend, to express anger about a shitty thing that happened, to respond to something, like, to correct an error, and for other reasons, but at the heart of this creative impulse is an endgame fantasy: I will get paid, and I will be applauded. Might be $10 and "an appreciative thing spoken by a friend", or it might be $10k and a standing O from a packed house, but the endgame is always part of the creative impulse.
― flamboyant goon tie included, Saturday, 13 April 2019 14:41 (four years ago) link
If they are not heard and not sold, then it has all been a waste of time, regardless of how much or how little the artist has enjoyed making the record.
this is objectively wrong btw
ums otm in this thread, permaban Turrican
― Emperor Tonetta Ketchup (sleeve), Saturday, 13 April 2019 14:46 (four years ago) link
These days it's almost impossible to remain completely unheard. At least one advantage with the current way is that you can always get a couple of hundred of people to hear your music anyway even with minimal promotion.
Selling records is more of a challenge though. T think the trick is you have to be a regular presence on social media, which is a shame in some ways but necessary if you want to sell records in 2019, unless you can enlist someone else to do this stuff.
― mirostones, Saturday, 13 April 2019 14:50 (four years ago) link
These 'Ban Turrican' posts are getting tiresome tbh. I don't agree with his points either but nothing he's said itt is even remotely beyond the pale so far.
― pomenitul, Saturday, 13 April 2019 14:54 (four years ago) link
It's entirely possible to be completely unheard, particularly now where everything is available all at once on the same platform. In that sort of climate of oversaturation, the bigger and more established artists will always have the edge. I get what you're saying, though. However, while you may be able to promote your fare to a couple of hundred of your mates, most artists would prefer for their music to gain traction beyond that. In a pedantic way, your close family and friends hearing you record counts as "heard", but in the big wide world it doesn't.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Saturday, 13 April 2019 15:00 (four years ago) link
*your
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Saturday, 13 April 2019 15:01 (four years ago) link
I had that thought too.
Also no call centres. I did telephone surveys or telemarketing for a while, including the whole year I was in Montreal 01-02, when the centre was packed with musicians and artists. It was a 'good' gig in that the hours were extremely flexible. A longtime friend who's a mid-sized noise-rock name has been doing it for about 20 years now. (We met doing another telemarketing gig, actually.)
Enjoying the idea that "music teacher" is a crazy day job for an indie musician.
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Saturday, 13 April 2019 15:03 (four years ago) link
Not beyond the pale, just the usual blowhard nonsense coming from a place of abject ignorance.
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Saturday, 13 April 2019 15:06 (four years ago) link
fgti otm
― be the 2 chainz you want 2 see in the world (m bison), Saturday, 13 April 2019 15:06 (four years ago) link
(xp) Not a banning offence tbf.
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Saturday, 13 April 2019 15:07 (four years ago) link
(xp) Lost me in the middle section there tbh.
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Saturday, 13 April 2019 15:09 (four years ago) link
― mirostones
man there are whole programs written simply to play music that has never been heard, show videos that have never been seen. there are a lot of them.
― Jaki Liebowitz (rushomancy), Saturday, 13 April 2019 15:09 (four years ago) link
permaban capitalism
― Jaki Liebowitz (rushomancy), Saturday, 13 April 2019 15:12 (four years ago) link
The likes of Tusk, The Dark Side of the Moon, Abbey Road, Low, Avalon or any impeccably produced album you could care to name would not have been anywhere near the same without the financial backing of the band/artists record company.
Likewise, a lot of the smaller acts on - say, Mute - would not have had money invested in them - recording/touring/promotional budgets - without the revenue generated by the bigger selling acts on the roster.
So no, I disagree.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Saturday, 13 April 2019 15:18 (four years ago) link
*sigh*
People clunking on Turrican is really annoying, I don't agree with exactly what he's saying but I don't think he's entirely wrong either-- there is a black-and-white discussion here about something that is more complicated
Clunking on "capitalism" is missing the point, also. 75% of music will still be not-worth-the-investment-of-your-time even if capitalism is eliminated, and the musicians creating that music will still be out here lamenting the fact that nobody wants to listen to their music
― flamboyant goon tie included, Saturday, 13 April 2019 15:20 (four years ago) link
These 'Ban Turrican' posts are getting tiresome tbh. I don't agree with his points either but nothing he's said itt is even remotely beyond the pale so far.― pomenitul, Saturday, April 13, 2019 2:54 PM (twenty-four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― pomenitul, Saturday, April 13, 2019 2:54 PM (twenty-four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Thank you :)
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Saturday, 13 April 2019 15:22 (four years ago) link
I forget some of you can't grasp the concept of enjoying doing something
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, 13 April 2019 15:23 (four years ago) link
― flamboyant goon tie included
ok but that 75% is a completely made up number, first off
i also agree with you that abolishing capitalism will not keep people from complaining that nobody wants to listen to their music, if that's the crux of the issue to you then yes, no answers there
i'm more concerned with people like maggie roche, who isn't one of the made-up 75% nobody will listen to, who literally died due to the failures of american capitalism
― Jaki Liebowitz (rushomancy), Saturday, 13 April 2019 15:25 (four years ago) link
― Jaki Liebowitz (rushomancy), Saturday, 13 April 2019 16:09 (six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
True actually, now that you mention it I remember http://www.forgotify.com
Some of the stuff on there is pretty good.
I will amend what I said slightly, I think it is easy to have at least a couple of hundred people listen as long as you do some promotion. I think the big mistake is to just put stuff up there and hope that's enough.
But that is a long way from making a career out of it of course.
― mirostones, Saturday, 13 April 2019 15:27 (four years ago) link
I do agree with Turrican in that I definitely miss the grand money pit records that were made possible by classic rock's imperial periodwe'll definitely not see those again, but in the scheme of things it was more a 15 year blip than the norm
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, 13 April 2019 15:28 (four years ago) link
@ rush, respectfully I am literally the best person in the room to guesstimate a percentage of musicians who exist who make work that is saleable enough to provide them with an living wage, so, yes it's a made-up number, but it's the best made-up number
I don't know the circumstances of Maggie Roche's death, but if we're talking about Why Americans Die then any conversation with me will always come back to "y'all don't have single payer health care" and "y'all have CCWs" so it is a pretty boring convo the 20th or so go-around
― flamboyant goon tie included, Saturday, 13 April 2019 15:30 (four years ago) link
I do agree with Turrican in that I definitely miss the grand money pit records that were made possible by classic rock's imperial period
we'll definitely not see those again, but in the scheme of things it was more a 15 year blip than the norm
The entire record industry as we know it was a blip (or, more accurately, a bubble).
― grawlix (unperson), Saturday, 13 April 2019 15:33 (four years ago) link
I don't think rushomancy can solely blame the recording industry for the lack of success of The Roches. Some things take off, and some things don't. This was the case back when there was less competition and a lot of money in the industry, and it's even harder now that there's more competition and fuck all money in the industry.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Saturday, 13 April 2019 15:33 (four years ago) link
I think not having single payer health care falls under the "failures of American capitalism"
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, 13 April 2019 15:38 (four years ago) link
Then you’re using “capitalism” pretty darn loosely.
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Saturday, 13 April 2019 15:39 (four years ago) link
Key word is 'American'.
― pomenitul, Saturday, 13 April 2019 15:39 (four years ago) link
As usual.
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Saturday, 13 April 2019 15:39 (four years ago) link
xp @ ums, oh for sure, I just felt as if rush was attributing Maggie Roche's death as being specifically an issue with the music industry, which I see he wasn't, but I read it as such
― flamboyant goon tie included, Saturday, 13 April 2019 15:41 (four years ago) link
Key word is 'American'.Doesn’t contradict my point, but ok
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Saturday, 13 April 2019 15:52 (four years ago) link
fgti, oh, certainly, if anybody is going to know what that percentage is it's going to be you - i'm just not sure that number is something that's knowable right now!
and yes, discussing the failures of the us healthcare system is tedious and redundant, but to me it's a significant enough ongoing failure that it makes discussing macro-level political, social, or economic issues an exercise in futility
which i guess explains my avoidance of the political threads and my tendency to, whenever a thread does turn political, to respond with "lol abolish capitalism". it's as much a distraction as shifting the thread to be about one particular strongly disliked long-term poster, but i try not to channel my negative feelings into personal animosity, deserved or no.
mirostones: to me i feel like anybody can make a "success" of themselves if their goals are modest enough and they're comfortable with self-salesmanship, and i guess it's also true that the herbie nicholses of the world will never be truly well-known. it's this absolute requirement, in today's world, that the artist self-promote that i find odious. i sympathize more, in principle, the people who have zero pageviews to the people who constantly promote their music to everyone they know and have 342 pageviews.
― Jaki Liebowitz (rushomancy), Saturday, 13 April 2019 15:57 (four years ago) link
honestly, i see the "music industry" and the way it works now as the future of capitalism
― Jaki Liebowitz (rushomancy), Saturday, 13 April 2019 15:58 (four years ago) link
The self-promoter formerly known as the artist is indeed a vile phenomenon.
― pomenitul, Saturday, 13 April 2019 15:59 (four years ago) link
no, i don't hate the artist themselves. i hate the system that rewards unhealthy behavior and punishes failure to behave in that manner.
― Jaki Liebowitz (rushomancy), Saturday, 13 April 2019 16:02 (four years ago) link
Sorry, that wasn't entirely clear. The phenomenon is vile, I don't hate the artists themselves either.
― pomenitul, Saturday, 13 April 2019 16:03 (four years ago) link
yeah i got that after i posted, i'm gonna try to slow down and read more :)
― Jaki Liebowitz (rushomancy), Saturday, 13 April 2019 16:14 (four years ago) link
Sometimes what you think you want isn't the same as what you actually want. For instance, you might think you want to play to lots of new people who haven't heard your music, but then when you actually do a couple of those gigs you realise that playing in a basement to 20 friends can be more fun and rewarding in some ways.
― mirostones, Saturday, 13 April 2019 16:20 (four years ago) link
I think many of the “indie” artists I’ve liked in the past 10 years or so haven’t necessarily had to do a lot of “self-promotion,” though. Parquet Courts (to choose a random example) make a point of not even being “online” (or at least they used to, I haven’t checked lately, not so into them anymore). I guess those guys have passed the threshold where they don’t need day jobs, don’t need to hustle because the label does it for them, etc.?
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Saturday, 13 April 2019 16:21 (four years ago) link
That's the thing though, even if they're not doing it themselves, someone else is probably doing it for them, so they're still benefiting from that sort of promotion.
― mirostones, Saturday, 13 April 2019 16:25 (four years ago) link
But that isn’t new(?) Artists have usually had to hustle themselves (flyers, social media, handmade demos, etc.) when they’re young & hungry; and then maybe be lucky/talented/whatever enough to get signed and have professional PR? Maybe I’m missing the finer point here tho
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Saturday, 13 April 2019 16:29 (four years ago) link
There really isn't much correlation between being cool-and-online and actual ticket/record sales; certain examples definitely exist, but it's not really the case anymore. If anything I would argue that it's proven to be a better business model for a musician to mind one's business. I only post here still because the Canadian government subsidizes me $10 per otm
― flamboyant goon tie included, Saturday, 13 April 2019 16:31 (four years ago) link
Why didn't you say so earlier?
fgti otm x10
― pomenitul, Saturday, 13 April 2019 16:35 (four years ago) link
otm, and there is a mental health aspect to this that I think is too often overlooked: the history of recorded music is full of brilliant but awkward, shy, and in many cases mentally ill people who could never have been expected to utilize / exploit social media the way, err, famous artists do now. I mean, a ton of those people were scared to death to even perform live, much less have to engage in what is basically a daily virtual meet-and-greet with every stranger who imposes themselves on you
― Paul Ponzi, Saturday, 13 April 2019 16:43 (four years ago) link
Yeah but folks from Skip Spence to Cat Power to Jandek still “made it” in their way
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Saturday, 13 April 2019 16:49 (four years ago) link
I guess your point is they wouldn’t “make it” now b/c they wouldn’t do social media and that’s become de rigeur?
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Saturday, 13 April 2019 16:50 (four years ago) link
yes, that was my point.
― Paul Ponzi, Saturday, 13 April 2019 17:07 (four years ago) link
But I guess that just doesn’t ring true to me. I think those particular artists could have just as much success if they emerged now — maybe even more — without doing anything different.
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Saturday, 13 April 2019 17:14 (four years ago) link
It also goes the other way — Will Seat Headrest would have been just an unknown kid with a bunch of home tapes if he were born 20 yrs. earlier, but the Internet existed and so he built up a big following just by putting his stuff online.
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Saturday, 13 April 2019 17:16 (four years ago) link
A big difference to me, though, is the loss of the “music press” as a central source of promotion/info about small artists. I bought the first Cat Power album, which was on a small Italian label (IIRC), because I read a review of it in CMJ. I don’t where I would hear of such a thing today (or I guess where a 19-y.o. equivalent of me hears about it today).
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Saturday, 13 April 2019 17:19 (four years ago) link
Sure, but the technology has changed so much that now you can make Low with a near-zero budget, if you have the time and creativity. A Four Tet or an Arca can make a relatively popular record with a laptop and Ableton, same for most radio rap (sure, expensive mix and mastering engineers are usually involved in that stuff, but don't necessary have to be if you have a producer who knows what they're doing).
Another thing that feels really different today is how important it is for an artist to have a strong visual aesthetic to go along with their music. If they happen to be a graphic or video designer along with being a musician, or have amazing personal style, great. If not, then that's where it takes money to work with people who will do that for them.
I guess that's not a new thing, but when you combine it with the new DIY social media approach, it often gets overlooked I think.
― change display name (Jordan), Saturday, 13 April 2019 18:07 (four years ago) link
if your intention was to suggest that the new model has been a boon to savvy but dull people making mediocre-at-best music at the expense of shy and awkward geniuses who might be creating the next Tusk, Dark Side of the Moon, Abbey Road, Low, or Avalon, then we are definitely on the same page
― Paul Ponzi, Saturday, 13 April 2019 18:16 (four years ago) link
Also, wasn't indie superstar Lou Barlow "just an unknown kid with a bunch of home tapes?" Wasn't the exalted Bob Pollard "just an unknown Midwestern middle aged jock with a bunch of home tapes?" They did alright thanks to the patronage of labels with dough!
― Paul Ponzi, Saturday, 13 April 2019 18:18 (four years ago) link
I suppose the artist gets the self-indulgent thrill of creating something, but only in the short term. Of course, lack of recognition and lack of financial success can be demoralising and lead to apathy and a "what's the point?" attitude.
for some reason this is making me laugh ...
― sarahell, Saturday, 13 April 2019 18:23 (four years ago) link
I forget some of you can't grasp the concept of enjoying doing something― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, April 13, 2019 8:23 AM (three hours ago)
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, April 13, 2019 8:23 AM (three hours ago)
otm x 10,000 -- being American, I know that matt does not get otm government subsidies
― sarahell, Saturday, 13 April 2019 18:25 (four years ago) link
I Don't Enjoy Making Music
― pomenitul, Saturday, 13 April 2019 18:33 (four years ago) link
Paul, you’re making my point for me... Bedroom artists had ways of “succeeding” in the past, and they still do today (your pointless snark around CSH notwithstanding)
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Saturday, 13 April 2019 18:35 (four years ago) link
Also, FWIW, Barlow already had a rep from Dino Jr., he didn’t come out of nowhere
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Saturday, 13 April 2019 18:37 (four years ago) link
Sure, but the technology has changed so much that now you can make Low with a near-zero budget, if you have the time and creativity.
I would argue that you couldn't, and that one might try and set out to make Low with a near-zero budget, but what you'd end up with is the kind of characterless "in the box" sterility which characterises the music of this decade which already sounds stagnant and, dare I say it, cheap. The fact that you then go on to list artists using the laptop-and-Ableton combo says it all. I personally think there's a world of difference between music made "in the box" vs. what Daft Punk did on Random Access Memories.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Saturday, 13 April 2019 19:11 (four years ago) link
Please feel free to GTFO. Painting, speaking from the perspective of a completely unsuccessful painter in terms of sales or even exhibitions, is something that is a lifelong pursuit and the means by which I come to terms with what consciousness is, how I organize thoughts and in fact the very act of perception and cognition. It is not a self-indulgent thrill, it's hard fucking work that sometimes pays off in unexpected ways but just as often is completely demoralizing strictly on its own terms, to say nothing of showing them or selling them. Yet somehow, for some reason, I continue to pursue it because it is a way for me to engage creatively with being a person. It's sad that you can't understand it but it's clear you have no idea what you're talking about.
many xposts
― pippin drives a lambo through the gates of isengard (Sparkle Motion), Saturday, 13 April 2019 19:19 (four years ago) link
As for the notion that Skip Spence "made it", I would argue that he didn't. The small fame that he has in music critic circles is all based on the fact that he didn't "make it", and the small fame surrounding Oar is entirely based on natrative ("hey dudes, listen to this recording made by someone who was totally mental!") rather than the music itself.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Saturday, 13 April 2019 19:21 (four years ago) link
*narrative
Jesus.
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Saturday, 13 April 2019 19:22 (four years ago) link
xxxpost:
Yet, you actually - whether you're aware of it or not - agreed with exactly what I was getting at!
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Saturday, 13 April 2019 19:26 (four years ago) link
at the expense of shy and awkward geniuses who might be creating the next Tusk, Dark Side of the Moon, Abbey Road, Low, or AvalonCircling back quickly — Paul, were you suggesting that the artists who recorded (say) Low and Avalon were awkward introverts who never would have made it in today’s Instagram-focused times?
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Saturday, 13 April 2019 19:36 (four years ago) link
I certainly don't agree with a single thing you've said on this thread. Your opinions are garbage and I regret even letting your nonsense enter my consciousness.
― pippin drives a lambo through the gates of isengard (Sparkle Motion), Saturday, 13 April 2019 19:46 (four years ago) link
That's not how it read, but fair enough - you now have a reason to paint a watercolour and feel demoralised about it afterwards.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Saturday, 13 April 2019 19:57 (four years ago) link
Getting a wee bit too cocky these days, son. Remember what happened last time?
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Saturday, 13 April 2019 20:00 (four years ago) link
Turrican is being a total cock but the FPs will fall as they may
- it totally fucking sucks to be part of that 22% and to be out on tour and find that the promoter has just opted not to invest the time and take a loss on the show, and you drove three hours to play to six people, the show just isn't listed in the papers or even at the venue, this happens to people all the time
I started not knowing about gigs being on when 3/4 of the papers went away (including the dance music one) and also people started listing gigs exclusively on Facebook
Sometimes people just decide to go whole-hog and embrace Patreon and Kickstarter-- in many ways, I have to respect Amanda Palmer for being the most quintessentially American musician for, somehow, turning a monstrous profit with such little talent or personal magnetism.
she absolutely has personal magnetism: lots of people are repelled by her, a sufficient amount are strongly attracted.
― blokes you can't rust (sic), Saturday, 13 April 2019 20:10 (four years ago) link
Well, this is not a case of opposites attract. I am repelled by her but I oddly admire how extreme she has been in riding her learjet of virtue all the way to Australia.
And yes, I have NO IDEA what's going on in the city any more, aside from Facebook events, and we still have a free weekly here. Personally I miss local message boards and wish they'd never went away
― flamboyant goon tie included, Saturday, 13 April 2019 20:21 (four years ago) link
Circling back quickly — Paul, were you suggesting that the artists who recorded (say) Low and Avalon were awkward introverts who never would have made it in today’s Instagram-focused times?
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Saturday, April 13, 2019 3:36 PM (fifty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
No - I would not call Bowie or Ferry introverted at all. I was merely suggesting that the person who today might make records as great as Low or Avalon may also be a weirdo person who is afraid of social media, leery of anything with a whiff of networking, and maybe doesn't enjoy playing live
― Paul Ponzi, Saturday, 13 April 2019 20:32 (four years ago) link
And I’m having trouble thing of many artists fitting that bill who achieved great popularity (and $$$) in the past; at least the “didn’t enjoy playing live” part. But there have always been Jandek types who achieved their own kind of success.
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Saturday, 13 April 2019 20:41 (four years ago) link
Steely Dan, Kate Bush, XTC...
― Paul Ponzi, Saturday, 13 April 2019 20:43 (four years ago) link
...The Beatles after 1966
― Paul Ponzi, Saturday, 13 April 2019 20:44 (four years ago) link
literally almost every big rapper today doesn't really play live until after they are big, they might enjoy it though
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, 13 April 2019 20:46 (four years ago) link
The Beatles didn’t have to tour anymore, they were established super-mega-stars. As for the other artists you listed, I could probably list rough equivalents today (keeping in mind that styles and “the industry” have changed, but not in a “it’s all Instagram’s fault” way).xp
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Saturday, 13 April 2019 20:48 (four years ago) link
...and UMS makes my point that there are a whole other set of avenues for artists to “make it” today who might not have before, which is why I don’t follow Paul’s “it’s a net loss” argument.
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Saturday, 13 April 2019 20:50 (four years ago) link
Can you elucidate? Explain how you think a budding Kate Bush living in a small town is going to "make it" in 2019?
― Paul Ponzi, Saturday, 13 April 2019 20:57 (four years ago) link
the new model has been a boon to savvy but dull people making mediocre-at-best music at the expense of shy and awkward geniusesLike if you’re such a crippling shy & awkward genius that you’re not even interested or able to get your music heard today (of all eras), how would you have done in the ‘70s? Sent a demo to Virgin Records and hoped for the best?
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Saturday, 13 April 2019 20:58 (four years ago) link
xp that is, with no industry contacts and no rich and / or famous mom or dad
― Paul Ponzi, Saturday, 13 April 2019 20:58 (four years ago) link
by adventuring on a riverboat or something iirc
― lumen (esby), Saturday, 13 April 2019 20:58 (four years ago) link
How was Kate Bush “discovered”? I honestly don’t know
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Saturday, 13 April 2019 20:59 (four years ago) link
Like if you’re such a crippling shy & awkward genius that you’re not even interested or able to get your music heard today (of all eras), how would you have done in the ‘70s? Sent a demo to Virgin Records and hoped for the best?
umm...yes?
― Paul Ponzi, Saturday, 13 April 2019 21:00 (four years ago) link
Kate Bush is maybe a bad example because iirc from her biography her family was pretty wealthy, which would have made a life in art a lot easier than it would be for, say, a single mom working at a Rite Aid in Pittsburgh
― Paul Ponzi, Saturday, 13 April 2019 21:03 (four years ago) link
xp — And that’s better than today, when an actual small-town kid like Will Toledo was able to gather an initial following by putting his shit online? The fact that you think he sucks is irrelevant, your “Kate Bush equivalent” could do it too.
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Saturday, 13 April 2019 21:05 (four years ago) link
Who is Matador not signing b/c (in your opinion) they’re wasting their money on Will? Your point is, “We’ll never know, but that person wile at least have had a fighting chance in an era where they would have been hopelessly obscure rather than have avenues to get attention!”
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Saturday, 13 April 2019 21:06 (four years ago) link
For one thing, Car Seat Headrest afaict do not make the kind of music that would necessitate a budget like the one given to, let's say for example, Portishead (more shy people who did alright under the old model). For another thing, I acknowledge that Will Toledo, as much as I dislike his music, might have been a bonafide star if he'd released the same records in 1996. He might also be a millionaire. At the very least he'd be doing better than he is now.
― Paul Ponzi, Saturday, 13 April 2019 21:11 (four years ago) link
Not only was her family well-off but they shared a mutual friend with David Gilmour, who thus heard her demo when she was 16. You can still make it with those kinds of connections.
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Saturday, 13 April 2019 21:13 (four years ago) link
xp Which I guess circles back to the original post. Does Car Seat Headrest pay the bills? If it does now, will it always?
(these are rhetorical questions, obviously, because a) I recognize that it's tacky to speculate about the finances of a perfect stranger and b) I have no idea what CSH makes)
― Paul Ponzi, Saturday, 13 April 2019 21:14 (four years ago) link
What, are we comparing the relative shyness(es) of different artists now?
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Saturday, 13 April 2019 21:30 (four years ago) link
I assume Will T. doesn’t need a day job, don’t know about the other guys he plays with. Once they’re in their 30s & 40s? Guess the hope is to become a band like Spoon which makes indie rock into a sustainable grown-up lifestyle, there’s never been many like that though.
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Saturday, 13 April 2019 21:31 (four years ago) link
My point is that there are (and will be) fewer and fewer like that under the current model
― Paul Ponzi, Saturday, 13 April 2019 21:33 (four years ago) link
oh no there will only be 2150468741857139850 indie bands
― lumen (esby), Saturday, 13 April 2019 21:41 (four years ago) link
we're friends with a legitimately great singer/songwriter who went back to work recently, partially because she's been a single mom with two kids. she doesn't really fit in a particular easy hip niche except being amazing at what she does, and despite being enough of a name to have a c/d thread on here and maybe 10-12 albums released along with several others in a group, she's likely never going to make a living at that alone unless there's an unexpected breakthrough, but if she was releasing albums 30-40 years ago she'd likely be doing pretty well for herself. as it is, i'm proud of her for just having a positive attitude and holding down a music career and a day gig and having kids.
― omar little, Saturday, 13 April 2019 21:47 (four years ago) link
I've narrowed it down to three possible candidates and I love all three artists
― flamboyant goon tie included, Saturday, 13 April 2019 22:14 (four years ago) link
yes there are 2150468741857139850 indie bands making a living playing music in 2019. Why, I cant even order a latte these days without being served by one of them
― Paul Ponzi, Saturday, 13 April 2019 22:35 (four years ago) link
if she was releasing albums 30-40 years ago she'd likely be doing pretty well for herself
she almost definitely would not be going back to work
― Paul Ponzi, Saturday, 13 April 2019 22:36 (four years ago) link
xp ok? i'm sure ppl who sell fidget spinners probably have to do more than solely that btwn now + eternity to make a living too. who cares.
― lumen (esby), Saturday, 13 April 2019 22:48 (four years ago) link
(xp) Would she have had 10-12 albums out? There were a lot of singer songwriters back then who were pretty talented who never got beyond one album and guess what they did next? They went back to work.
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Saturday, 13 April 2019 22:53 (four years ago) link
There's re-writing the history books and then there's re-writing the history books and turning them into fairy tales.
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Saturday, 13 April 2019 22:56 (four years ago) link
Yeah, the catalogs of the week in the ‘70s & ‘80s are littered with obscure bands and solo artists who had one or two albums, maybe a few, and then were dropped and that was that. I have a hard time believing that it’s somehow “more difficult than ever before” now to make a long-term career as a rock ‘n roll artist.
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Saturday, 13 April 2019 23:01 (four years ago) link
(Somehow the phrase “major labels” got changed to the word “week”(!) in the first line of my post above)
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Saturday, 13 April 2019 23:02 (four years ago) link
And saying “well Steely Dan did it” is coming it at from the wrong end.... Open that “Terrible ‘70s album titles” thread and tell me how many of those people never had to go back to work. Maybe they didn’t need side jobs in the few years they were under contract, but what does that amount to? If indie labels had existed then like today, they maybe could have kept releasing albums, but still would have needed day jobs.
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Saturday, 13 April 2019 23:05 (four years ago) link
paul i don't get this assumption you have where not using social media is evidence of some crippling mental condition
the problem with social media to me is not that some people are too shy or whatever to use it - i haven't found social anxiety any kind of impedance to using social media, which is probably one of the reasons it's so popular!
― Jaki Liebowitz (rushomancy), Sunday, 14 April 2019 07:50 (four years ago) link
Guess the hope is to become a band like Spoon which makes indie rock into a sustainable grown-up lifestyle, there’s never been many like that though.
depends on how you define sustainable ... I think one of the things going on here is that America has such wildly varied costs of living that what can mean a "sustainable grown-up lifestyle" in Asheville, NC equals living with 3 roommates and having the equivalent of a post-college / barely scraping by lifestyle in a major city. This is just for a person who is single, or partnered without kids
― sarahell, Sunday, 14 April 2019 09:28 (four years ago) link
Oh, for sure... Spoon lives in Austin, yeah?Who are some other indie-rock “lifers” — at it for decades, maybe with kids, families, etc., and no side jobs needed? Malkmus (Portland), YLT (Hoboken still?), Built to Spill (dude lives in Boise), Will Oldham (Louisville)... this is just off top of head, I can think of others who have been in game for decades but don’t know for sure if any of them solely “make it” from their rock earnings.
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Sunday, 14 April 2019 14:09 (four years ago) link
Again, it feels a little weird speculating about the personal finances of these people, but you raise a good point about most f those artists living in relatively inexpensive cities. I always thought it was cool that Wayne Coyne has, as far as I know, remained in Norman, OK.
xp Asheville is not what I would call an inexpensive American city, exactly. Less expensive that New York or LA, sure, but definitely not cheap by southeastern (or midwestern) standards.
― Paul Ponzi, Sunday, 14 April 2019 15:47 (four years ago) link
Brett from Spoon I thought lived in or around Portland. Yo La Tengo ... I could have sworn they have a place in Manhattan now? (And no kids). Built to Spill ... yeah, Idaho is pretty cheap, much cheaper than Portland/Austin/Hoboken for sure.
Low has it figured out, it seems, and they have kids.
― Josh in Chicago, Sunday, 14 April 2019 15:53 (four years ago) link
Frankly surprised that the "lesser" cities of the Midwest aren't more sought-out as "liveable places for musicians". Madison, Milwaukee, Minneapolis and Iowa City all seem like lovely places!!
― flamboyant goon tie included, Sunday, 14 April 2019 15:57 (four years ago) link
Oh, for sure... Spoon lives in Austin, yeah?
I don't think all the members of the band do? I could be wrong ... but I think at least one lives in SF bay area
― sarahell, Sunday, 14 April 2019 15:57 (four years ago) link
let's say you're a musician who earns $4000 a year from ASCAP royalties -- how many months of expenses at a "middle class adult lifestyle" would that pay in Asheville, or a similar city?
― sarahell, Sunday, 14 April 2019 16:03 (four years ago) link
lotta weird assumptions in this thread, the main one being that there is a direct relationship between quality of music and amount of time and money spent on it, which, uh ...
but it also doesn't follow that most musicians do it only for the love, but to me recognition is more important than money for my music (but, i am lucky to not hate my day job)
also in the box is indistinguishable from hardware/hybrid mostly these days; listen to teflon dawn and tell me it sounds tinny (completely digitally mixed)
i think most pop music sounds bad not due to lack of funds or expertise, but producing and making music designed to be listened to streamed into earbuds (voice way up in the mix and hyper compressed/EQ'd, everything else a rhythmic and harmonic slurry supporting the 'personality' that is really what animates the song)
― Vapor waif (uptown churl), Sunday, 14 April 2019 17:38 (four years ago) link
sure, but there's more to livability than affordability. i can't speak to iowa city specifically not having been there but it's still in iowa, which is not necessarily a great place to be non-conforming. and in the midwest, "non-conforming" encompasses fairly broad categories like "non-white" and "female".
― Jaki Liebowitz (rushomancy), Sunday, 14 April 2019 18:00 (four years ago) link
(voice way up in the mix and hyper compressed/EQ'd, everything else a rhythmic and harmonic slurry supporting the 'personality' that is really what animates the song)What are some examples of this? I think recent pop hits sound well-produced (even if I don’t always dig the songs).
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Sunday, 14 April 2019 18:08 (four years ago) link
I also recall the ‘80s, with those booming gated drums over everything; that didn’t necessarily sound “good” (etc.)
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Sunday, 14 April 2019 18:10 (four years ago) link
LOL @ this 'Boohoo, there may never be an "Abbey Road" or "Dark Side of the Moon" again' nonsense tbh.
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Sunday, 14 April 2019 18:12 (four years ago) link
most pop music sounds bad not due to lack of funds or expertise
I mean, there are pop artists pulling in 8-9 figures in a year. Surely, they could afford good studios and producers if they wanted. I also do think that Jordan is right that technological changes have drastically reduced the bar to entry when it comes to making good-sounding recordings (which is not the same as saying that making something entirely in a DAW is equal to recording and producing Dark Side of the Moon).
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Sunday, 14 April 2019 18:16 (four years ago) link
The artists named in that link do use good studios & producers, though
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Sunday, 14 April 2019 18:21 (four years ago) link
Oh, I don't deny that. Even when I dislike some of their sounds, I don't think it's because they're making recordings in their basement with an SM57 and a laptop. I'm a little sceptical of some of the claims being made.
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Sunday, 14 April 2019 18:24 (four years ago) link
A number of ambitious contemporary recordings get discussed in Sound on Sound and Tape Op, not just Daft Punk - mostly from established artists but that had to be true in the past too?
https://www.soundonsound.com/people/ben-foldshttps://www.soundonsound.com/people/inside-track-muses-drones
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Sunday, 14 April 2019 18:39 (four years ago) link
I feel like pop music has never sounded better in my lifetime (even though I pay less attention to it as I get older).Take a few random tracks like “Bad Liar” and “Fetish,” by Selena Gomez... I feel like I’ve waited my whole life for pop songs to sound like that!
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Sunday, 14 April 2019 18:51 (four years ago) link
(And I know “trap beats in pop songs” will sound really dated soon, but I’m still a sucker for them)
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Sunday, 14 April 2019 18:52 (four years ago) link
in the box is indistinguishable from hardware/hybrid mostly these days
Hmm. I can't agree with this - I think recordings done "in the box" have a specific sterility, even airless and artificial feel to them, like the sonic equivalent of those square cheese slices.
I agree that all of that is a conttibuting factor to recent recordings sounding terrible. Pop music has always been mixed as a compromise between higher-end setups and the lowest common denominator (i.e. radio) ... Unfortunately, as you've pointed out, the increasing trend is to mix/master with earbuds in mind these days, and it shows in a lot of remasters. Combined with the way that records are generally made at the moment, the end result becomes sonically unappealing.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Sunday, 14 April 2019 19:25 (four years ago) link
A number of ambitious contemporary recordings get discussed in Sound on Sound and Tape Op, not just Daft Punk - mostly from established artists but that had to be true in the past too?https://www.soundonsound.com/people/ben-foldshttps://www.soundonsound.com/people/inside-track-muses-drones― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Sunday, April 14, 2019 6:39 PM (forty-five minutes ago) BookmarkFlag Post Permalink
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Sunday, April 14, 2019 6:39 PM (forty-five minutes ago) BookmarkFlag Post Permalink
Both from established acts rather than a relatively new act that the record company have thrown the chequebook at/invested money in etc.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Sunday, 14 April 2019 19:27 (four years ago) link
Isn't that also true of Abbey Road and DSotM?
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Sunday, 14 April 2019 19:30 (four years ago) link
I also recall the ‘80s, with those booming gated drums over everything; that didn’t necessarily sound “good” (etc.)― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Sunday, April 14, 2019 6:10 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag PostPermalink
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Sunday, April 14, 2019 6:10 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag PostPermalink
Say what you like about "gated drums" (you're wrong, btw) but at least the way that '80s recordings were mixed and mastered felt fuller, richer and easier to listen to as a consequence of being EQ'd reasonably and not being compressed to an insane degree of ear fatiguing level.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Sunday, 14 April 2019 19:35 (four years ago) link
Mods, please delete ilm
― findom haddie (jim in vancouver), Sunday, 14 April 2019 19:37 (four years ago) link
Isn't that also true of Abbey Road and DSotM?― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Sunday, April 14, 2019 7:30 PM (five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Sunday, April 14, 2019 7:30 PM (five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
In that context, it would be better to refer to Sgt. Pepper's, which was one of the most expensive records made to that point. If that hadn't been a success, they wouldn't have got to make Abbey Road. Even with The Beatles' popularity, I would suspect that EMI would still have considered throwing that much money at a pop record to have been a gamble.
It's true that Pink Floyd had been around a while when they made The Dark Side of the Moon, but given that they'd spent four years since the departure of Syd Barrett essentially pissing about for the benefit of a small, cultish fanbase, I'd say that The Dark Side of the Moon was a risk, too.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Sunday, 14 April 2019 19:43 (four years ago) link
I don't know how expensive "Dark Side of the Moon" (aka Pink Floyd's most boring album) was to make tbh - I'm not sure how it would compare to Razorlight's 2nd album (joke).
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Sunday, 14 April 2019 19:53 (four years ago) link
yall are using so many records as shorthand for expensive sounding when barry white's catalog is just sitting right there
― be the 2 chainz you want 2 see in the world (m bison), Sunday, 14 April 2019 19:55 (four years ago) link
they'd spent four years since the departure of Syd Barrett essentially pissing about for the benefit of a small, cultish fanbase
I mean, from a quick scan of the history on their website, Atom Heart Mother reached #1 in the UK, Meddle #3, and Obscured by Clouds #6. They played to 15K in 1971. Not the level of international success they reached after DSotM (although their Billboard placements were respectable) but seems like they were more than a minor cult band by 1973.
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Sunday, 14 April 2019 20:07 (four years ago) link
Remember everything turrican says is ill-informed and wrong
― findom haddie (jim in vancouver), Sunday, 14 April 2019 20:09 (four years ago) link
Circling back to the original thread topic: Eleanor Friedberger has talked pretty openly in interviews about the difficulties involved with making a sustainable living in indie rock; having to move away from NYC, because it became too expensive; wishing the FFs had started their career 10 years earlier, so they could have built up a bigger following and garnered more momentum/success; etc.
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Sunday, 14 April 2019 20:53 (four years ago) link
i was a big furnacehead (that's what us ff fans call ourselves) and i mean... they put out at least 6-7 widely distributed albums, got music press coverage and accolades, toured extensively for years, and must have grossed at least a couple hundred thousand if not more over the course of a relatively short stretch of time, all on the back of music that, had it never existed, might have less of an effect on the world than a flap of a butterfly's wing?
― lumen (esby), Sunday, 14 April 2019 21:12 (four years ago) link
I mean, from a quick scan of the history on their website, Atom Heart Mother reached #1 in the UK, Meddle #3, and Obscured by Clouds #6. They played to 15K in 1971. Not the level of international success they reached after DSotM (although their Billboard placements were respectable) but seems like they were more than a minor cult band by 1973.― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Sunday, 14 April 2019 20:07 (one hour ago) Permalink
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Sunday, 14 April 2019 20:07 (one hour ago) Permalink
I was talking relatively. Still sufficently small enough at that point to be considered a gamble.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Sunday, 14 April 2019 21:21 (four years ago) link
What gamble are you talking about?
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Sunday, 14 April 2019 21:23 (four years ago) link
I was curious so I looked up known budgets of a few "classic" albums. "Pet Sounds" (which was a "Tusk"-like indulgence) reportedly cost $75,000 at the time and took 10 months. For comparison, "Sgt. Pepper" cost 25,000 pounds (not that the Beatles had a budget, per se), but I mention it since "Odyssey and Oracle" (recorded right after "Sgt. Pepper" at Abbey Road, some with Beatles equipment left behind) reportedly cost only ("only") 1000 pounds to record, but the band was tightly budgeted on time as well and had the songs totally rehearsed and worked-out (which of course has its own costs in terms of time, etc.). But it's an example of an ambitious classic album that cost a fraction of its peers' similarly ambitious output. So I think that what tons of money and studio time seems to truly afford is the luxury of spending months in the studio fiddling around, but if you have your shit together you can record something pretty awesome given limited time and money. And that's probably always been the case.
First Ramones something cost something like $6000 to record, which was cheap for the time but still nuts, because that's thousands of dollars on an album that imo doesn't really sound it. But that's an example of a classic that a lot of people could probably record today for a fraction of that budget and get a similar (or superior) sound. But of course those bands are not the Ramones.
Somewhat related, I read a piece in TapeOp about an engineer who got his start assisting (in the most boring of ways) Flood in the studio. So it was Flood producing 30 Seconds to Mars, in the band's home studio, for something like a year and a half. Now that is an indulgence.
― Josh in Chicago, Sunday, 14 April 2019 21:28 (four years ago) link
He's saying that investing a lot into DSotM would have been a commercial gamble for the label, compared to the present-day risk involved with investing into ambitious recordings by Ben Folds or Muse, I think? If that's true, I think it would be because the cost of recording and production has gone down thanks to technological advances. Folds in 2015 was surely not more bankable than Pink Floyd in 1973.
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Sunday, 14 April 2019 21:38 (four years ago) link
"Hysteria" reportedly cost $5 million and took 4 years to make. (Which is inconceivable to me.)
― Josh in Chicago, Sunday, 14 April 2019 21:45 (four years ago) link
That's p incredible, although there were some famous, uh, complications that occurred during those four years, which probably drew out the process a little.
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Sunday, 14 April 2019 21:53 (four years ago) link
I suppose I've never thought of "Dark Side of the Moon" as being a famously expensive or extravagant recording.
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Sunday, 14 April 2019 22:37 (four years ago) link
Lorde took 18 months to record her second album, and worked in 4 studios between NYC and L.A. (according to Wikipedia); during which time she lived in Manhattan (I don’t know on whose dime). Anyway, all that can’t have been cheap, and it was a luxury afforded recently to a young and still relatively untested artist. If I’m following the “debate” here...
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Sunday, 14 April 2019 22:42 (four years ago) link
For comparison, "Sgt. Pepper" cost 25,000 pounds (not that the Beatles had a budget, per se), but I mention it since "Odyssey and Oracle" (recorded right after "Sgt. Pepper" at Abbey Road, some with Beatles equipment left behind) reportedly cost only ("only") 1000 pounds to record
I assume that £1000 figure is in old money (£/s/d - don't forget, our coinage system was different in the '60s) and not adjusted for inflation, but it works out at £18,000 in new money (£/p) plus inflation adjustment. Not a cheap record at all. Has that Sgt. Pepper's figure been adjusted?
Odessey & Oracle is nowhere near as ambitious in the production department vs. Sgt. Pepper's, even if I do think it's the superior record.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Sunday, 14 April 2019 22:44 (four years ago) link
Pounds were the same in old money btw, but, yes, £1000 would not have been cheap in 1967.
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Sunday, 14 April 2019 22:50 (four years ago) link
Odyssey & Oracle is a better sounding record than Sgt. Pepper by any measure except "this one's the best because it's Sgt Pepper" & also this discussion is ridiculous
― she carries a torch. two torches, actually (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Sunday, 14 April 2019 22:52 (four years ago) link
Jesus fucking christ he thinks pounds were different in old money
― findom haddie (jim in vancouver), Sunday, 14 April 2019 23:06 (four years ago) link
They technically were. The only similarity between the pre-decimalisation pound and the post-decimalisation pound is the word pound.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Monday, 15 April 2019 01:28 (four years ago) link
Remember everything turrican says is ill-informed and wrong― findom haddie (jim in vancouver), Sunday, April 14, 2019 8:09 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― findom haddie (jim in vancouver), Sunday, April 14, 2019 8:09 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
You're a great guy with a lot of worthwhile things to say and not at all a waste of time.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Monday, 15 April 2019 01:31 (four years ago) link
Wait, did the value of a pound change from the 14th to the 15th of February 1971? Otherwise, inflation is the only factor that needs to be considered when comparing GBP costs from the 60s vs the present day. xp
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Monday, 15 April 2019 01:34 (four years ago) link
As stated, £1000 in 1967 would have been close to £18,000. A lot has been made of how much less Please Please Me cost in comparison to Sgt. Pepper's, but the £400 reported cost of Please Please Me would be about £8,300 today.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Monday, 15 April 2019 01:43 (four years ago) link
XP That's correct. Millions of people were gutted to discover on the 15th Feb 1971 that the money they'd left in their wallets over the weekend had suddenly turned into pixie dust. jfc my head hurts
― The Gapes of Wrath (Noodle Vague), Monday, 15 April 2019 01:49 (four years ago) link
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Monday, 15 April 2019 06:44 (four years ago) link
“Am I out of touch?...No, it’s the pounds that are wrong.”
― blokes you can't rust (sic), Monday, 15 April 2019 07:31 (four years ago) link
I'm sorry I've been away and missed the last week or more of this thread
― Neil S, Monday, 15 April 2019 08:52 (four years ago) link
there has been some coin-clipping going on, call the sheriff!
― calzino, Monday, 15 April 2019 09:00 (four years ago) link
There's been inteense discussion of how many bawbeees and groats it cost to record Screamadelica.
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Monday, 15 April 2019 09:18 (four years ago) link
A lot of double e's there, like I'm posting in an Ayrshire accent or sumthin'
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Monday, 15 April 2019 09:23 (four years ago) link
fuckin' shillings, how do they work?
― Neil S, Monday, 15 April 2019 09:34 (four years ago) link
Indie musicians these days haven't got a brass farthing to their name, let alone shillings.
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Monday, 15 April 2019 09:46 (four years ago) link
no worries, there are more than enough posh hobbyists about to make up the indie quotas :p
― calzino, Monday, 15 April 2019 09:51 (four years ago) link
go to keep pace with other leading EU zones with our output of indifferent mediocre rock music if global britain is going to be a success.
― calzino, Monday, 15 April 2019 09:59 (four years ago) link
The (Innovative) Jam.
― koogs, Monday, 15 April 2019 11:23 (four years ago) link
Did we ever figure out why hip-hop sucked in '96?
― pomenitul, Monday, 15 April 2019 11:24 (four years ago) link
it's the shillings IIRC
― Neil S, Monday, 15 April 2019 11:24 (four years ago) link
We are the dollars and cents and the pounds and penceAnd the mark and the yen, and yeah We're gonna crack your little souls
― pomenitul, Monday, 15 April 2019 11:27 (four years ago) link
We are the dollars and cents and the *pounds and pence
(*the post decimalization pound, of course)
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Monday, 15 April 2019 11:29 (four years ago) link
this discussion actually felt pretty constructive before all the snark
more Simpsons references please, my sides are seriously splitting
― Paul Ponzi, Monday, 15 April 2019 13:55 (four years ago) link
I agree, but y'know what this place is like, some folks just can't help themselves.
Odyssey & Oracle is a better sounding record than Sgt. Pepper
I agree that it sounds better, even if the production isn't as ambitious. Of course, Geoff Emerick engineered both records, and having literally just come off the Sgt. Pepper's sessions then he would have been the best person to dial up a great sound quickly having already done the painstaking experimental work with The Beatles.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Monday, 15 April 2019 14:05 (four years ago) link
some folks just can't help themselves.
We noticed.
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Monday, 15 April 2019 14:14 (four years ago) link
^ See what I mean?
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Monday, 15 April 2019 14:14 (four years ago) link
Not been 51'd yet?
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Monday, 15 April 2019 14:15 (four years ago) link
this thread has taken some weird fuckin turns since the last time i checked in
― arli$$ and bible black (bizarro gazzara), Monday, 15 April 2019 14:17 (four years ago) link
I've learned a lot.
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Monday, 15 April 2019 14:20 (four years ago) link
a sterling example of ilx at its best
― sarahell, Monday, 15 April 2019 14:29 (four years ago) link
Like solar eclipses, such threads only occur once every 18 months on average.
― pomenitul, Monday, 15 April 2019 14:45 (four years ago) link
All I’m reading is divergent opinions being discussed, interrupted by people being shitty to Turrican for having different opinions
― flamboyant goon tie included, Monday, 15 April 2019 15:01 (four years ago) link
It seems like people are primarily responding to his past transgressions, of which I'm not really aware, as we tend not to haunt the same threads.
― pomenitul, Monday, 15 April 2019 15:04 (four years ago) link
he has a really obnoxious way of expressing himself, however, i must be the problem
― american bradass (BradNelson), Monday, 15 April 2019 15:05 (four years ago) link
he also tends to derail discussions into their most awful forms possible, which is guess is also a case of divergent opinions being discussed so fine
glad turrican is here he's bringing so much to the table
― american bradass (BradNelson), Monday, 15 April 2019 15:06 (four years ago) link
"different opinions" meaning "alternative facts", or maybe just "talking bullshit"
some things are either true or false, whether the British pound changed value on decimalisation is not really up for debate
― Colonel Poo, Monday, 15 April 2019 15:07 (four years ago) link
i am really tired of making this case so i will stop if y'all think he's fine or whatever
― american bradass (BradNelson), Monday, 15 April 2019 15:08 (four years ago) link
No I'm pretty sure most of us think he's a turrible cant
― like him hate us? Sure you are. Its in the cool aid. (ultros ultros-ghali), Monday, 15 April 2019 15:10 (four years ago) link
I used to not quite get why he bugged ppl so much — then I “snapped” and lost my cool recently, so now I just ignore him.
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Monday, 15 April 2019 15:11 (four years ago) link
17 Indie Artists on Their Oddest Odd Jobs That Pay the Bills When Music Doesn’t (yet another poll about noted ILM user Turrican)
― pomenitul, Monday, 15 April 2019 15:14 (four years ago) link
trying to decide which of these tedious topics are the worst: production cost of "classic" albums, the importance and quality of "classic albums," Turrican's posting
― sarahell, Monday, 15 April 2019 15:25 (four years ago) link
so, for all the other countries where musicians get government money for being musicians, are there rules and/or a process whereby one gets to call themselves a musician?
― sarahell, Monday, 15 April 2019 15:26 (four years ago) link
There'd be no problen with Turrican if he could handle the fact that people might not agree with everything he says and that they are going to pull him up on things he gets wrong - and if he dropped the obnoxious attitude when they do.
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Monday, 15 April 2019 15:30 (four years ago) link
he has a really obnoxious way of expressing himself, however, i must be the problem― american bradass (BradNelson), Monday, April 15, 2019 3:05 PM (twenty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag PostPermalink
― american bradass (BradNelson), Monday, April 15, 2019 3:05 PM (twenty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag PostPermalink
While we're on the subject of expressing oneself obnoxiously, it's worth pointing out this point that only one of the two of us has called the other a "shithead" or "huge dumbass" over the last few months, and it certainly wasn't me to you.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Monday, 15 April 2019 15:30 (four years ago) link
There'd be no problen with Turrican if he could handle the fact that people might not agree with everything he says and that they are going to pull him up on things he gets wrong - and if he dropped the obnoxious attitude when they do.― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.),Monday, April 15, 2019 3:30 PM (twenty-five seconds ago)Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.),Monday, April 15, 2019 3:30 PM (twenty-five seconds ago)Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
In the case of this particular thread - and others - I'd say it was the other way 'round.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Monday, 15 April 2019 15:32 (four years ago) link
The first two seem like reasonable topics for a music message board imo?
I tend to agree with fgti/pomenitul that, while I disagree with some of Turrican's opinions itt, and think some of what he's saying is wrong, he doesn't really deserve to be piled on.
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Monday, 15 April 2019 15:35 (four years ago) link
All I’m reading is divergent opinions being discussed, interrupted by people being shitty to Turrican for having different opinions― flamboyant goon tie included, Monday, April 15, 2019 3:01 PM (thirty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― flamboyant goon tie included, Monday, April 15, 2019 3:01 PM (thirty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Yes, this is pretty much OTM, really. Also, my patience only runs so far so when people are being shitty to me for this reason, they shouldn't then find themselves surprised when I eventually snap and be shitty back. Of course, naturally I'd rather not do this and would rather stay on topic, but here we are!
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Monday, 15 April 2019 15:36 (four years ago) link
Thanks Sund4r :)
Have you never wondered why otherwise mild mannered posters get into shouting matches with the guy?
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Monday, 15 April 2019 15:37 (four years ago) link
I've no idea who you're referring to there, but if that's the case then perhaps they're not actually that mild-mannered.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Monday, 15 April 2019 15:38 (four years ago) link
And can we get back on topic?
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Monday, 15 April 2019 15:39 (four years ago) link
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Monday, April 15, 2019 8:30 AM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
all right, i'm out, enjoy turrican everyone
― american bradass (BradNelson), Monday, 15 April 2019 15:39 (four years ago) link
Maybe not, but then I don't see them butting heads with too many other people. (xxp)
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Monday, 15 April 2019 15:40 (four years ago) link
At least in Canada, you submit applications for grants for projects and a committee decides whether you get the grant. (You can apply to get your living costs covered at a subsistence level while you are working on these projects.) I think this happens in the US too, just less often. Idk if there are countries where you can get paid just for calling yourself a musician.
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Monday, 15 April 2019 15:48 (four years ago) link
reasonable, yes. Boring and discussed to death in countless other threads, also yes.
― sarahell, Monday, 15 April 2019 15:50 (four years ago) link
you submit applications for grants for projects and a committee decides whether you get the grant. (You can apply to get your living costs covered at a subsistence level while you are working on these projects.) I think this happens in the US too, just less often
this does happen in the US, at federal, state, and local levels. ... i used to write grants for a living.
― sarahell, Monday, 15 April 2019 15:52 (four years ago) link
It is a well-known fact that every music forum eventually turns into Steve Hoffman.
― pomenitul, Monday, 15 April 2019 15:52 (four years ago) link
Permaban ILM.
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Monday, 15 April 2019 15:55 (four years ago) link
I'd be really interested in finding out how US granting systems work... I kind of just assumed there weren't any? beyond grants for institutions? In Canada there are several different bodies, both regional and national, that assist for different things. It's not quite as generous as it was 2000-2010 but most musicians I know depend upon it. Certain bodies are about supporting emerging artists/under-privileged artists, and other bodies are about stimulating a music-oriented economy-- Starmaker in particular is geared toward stimulating artists who've already got their fanbase and so on, to try and take a band at Alvvays's level and get them up to Metric's level or what-have-you
I was listening to Weyes Blood this morning and that's a very classic sounding album! I don't think it's a classic album by any means but it sounds amazing, regardless of how much it cost to make
― flamboyant goon tie included, Monday, 15 April 2019 16:13 (four years ago) link
xp I didn't say creating art is a waste?
I'm only speaking for people who expect some form of return on the investments I listed, in hopes that their hard work will reach people outside of their immediate network.
Creating for self-satisfaction or for the journey and experience of creation is its own separate reward. I should have clarified I wasn't referring to that.
― billstevejim, Monday, 15 April 2019 16:55 (four years ago) link
I'm curious if you mean as a home base for someone who already has a recording/touring career, or as a place to actively make a living?
Madison is getting increasingly expensive unfortunately, but Milwaukee can still be very cheap. I do know musicians who only do music here and in Minneapolis, but it's a constant hustle of course (and everyone has some combination of teaching/gigging/touring and recording revenue in some rare cases).
― change display name (Jordan), Monday, 15 April 2019 17:49 (four years ago) link
Milwaukee is gorgeous. I don't know anything about music scenes in those cities, I have a friend who lives and works in Madison and I've read that Iowa City has a good noise scene
Currently in Canada, Toronto is just becoming entirely unliveable from a rent-to-income perspective and musicians are deserting in droves. Montreal remains the best option for musicians, but you can't really work there unless you have perfect Quebecois French. Lots of small towns 1- to 2-hours outside of Toronto are becoming popular places to move to-- Hamilton especially. I found a tenable living situation in Toronto but if I'll likely be leaving the city in five years or so for like Paris (Ontario) or Bancroft or something like that
― flamboyant goon tie included, Monday, 15 April 2019 18:17 (four years ago) link
perfect Quebecois French
Eh, I wouldn't say 'perfect'. Nor 'Quebecois' for that matter… But yeah, you need to be able to get by in French if you want a decent job in Montreal.
― pomenitul, Monday, 15 April 2019 18:20 (four years ago) link
In Madison there's been an unexpected upswing in jazz & DIY venues, which is nice, because it was bleak for awhile. It's still pretty bleak for rap/dance/most other scenes imo. Milwaukee has a lot more going on for rap/dance/indie, but it's not exactly a wonderland.
I think the midwestern winter is a real deterrent to more artists moving/staying here.
― change display name (Jordan), Monday, 15 April 2019 18:31 (four years ago) link
didn't expect to see a bancroft, ontario reference itt.
i was there once a couple of winters back, my ex's cousin was a school teacher there.
― findom haddie (jim in vancouver), Monday, 15 April 2019 20:13 (four years ago) link
I’m sorry that people don’t find discussion of how music is made interesting. Please enjoy this video of people brawling to a self playing piano, which reminded me of this thread in at least four ways
Aye so my mom witnessed a fight at Costco today... commotion was crazy... but I’m dying at this self-playing piano scoring the whole moment 😂😂😂😂😂 pic.twitter.com/LYNGWBAqEQ— Allen Golden Jr. (@allengoldenjr) April 14, 2019
― Vapor waif (uptown churl), Monday, 15 April 2019 22:24 (four years ago) link
LOL, where is that?
― Do you like 70s hard rock with a guitar hero? (Tom D.), Monday, 15 April 2019 23:03 (four years ago) link
Impartial observation from a guy who occasionally reads ILM but very seldom posts: I have no idea of the back-story here but I've enjoyed Turrican's posts ITT, even where I don't wholeheartedly agree.
The snarky criticisms seem weirdly misplaced (and a real bore to scroll through).
― Birds in Hell, Monday, 15 April 2019 23:11 (four years ago) link
yeah i don't agree with falsehoods often as well.
scroll through my ass, lurker
― findom haddie (jim in vancouver), Monday, 15 April 2019 23:17 (four years ago) link
don't do it lurker
― lumen (esby), Monday, 15 April 2019 23:26 (four years ago) link
I like that this thread has circled back to the player piano
― Dan S, Monday, 15 April 2019 23:36 (four years ago) link
I witnessed a brawl on ILX today, scored by a self-playing piano..
― beard papa, Tuesday, 16 April 2019 01:26 (four years ago) link
Regarding the odd present of the player piano:
I was curious a while back if Yamaha still had the self-playing (or guided playing) stuff in their newer keyboards that they were touting circa the early 1990s
It turns out they have exclusive concert experiences — you can have a live or prerecorded concert playing on video, and the piano part being played comes from your keyboard, which is being played at a spooky distance by the artist.
I’m morbidly curious about who actually pays for this outside of music stores hawking Yamaha product
― mh, Tuesday, 16 April 2019 03:47 (four years ago) link
i was watching The Great Egg Race the other day and one of their episodes was an automatic piano. he demonstrated it using a modern* piano that ran off data written on a standard cassette.
* modern for 1985
― koogs, Tuesday, 16 April 2019 08:29 (four years ago) link
I'd be really interested in finding out how US granting systems work... I kind of just assumed there weren't any? beyond grants for institutions?
Like a lot of American things, a significant amount of arts granting is done by the private sector: mostly private foundations and some public community foundations. When it comes to government granting, this happens at the national, state, and local levels -- the latter two often end up working as incentives for artists to remain or come or leave certain areas.
Federal grants go through the NEA - National Endowment for the Arts (there is some that go through other departments like the NEH -- National Endowment for the Humanities, or other agencies to create "innovative" programs -- I think there is one arts grant program that gets funding from HUD -- Housing & Urban Development?). The vast majority of NEA money goes to organizations and institutions now -- after the brouhaha with the "NEA 4" -- but a lot of the grants are project based and are for individual artists working with organizations with a significant amount of the money being earmarked for artist fees. There are also contractual ways of funding an individual artist project through an organization, with the organization acting in a way like the "guarantor" of the artist.
At the state level, New York is one of the most generous states. At one point, California cut almost all of its state arts granting, but in the last 5-10 years has increased and expanded its arts grants, and definitely is marketing the fuck out of that fact. California does most of its arts funding through a bunch of different programs, and they change from year to year. I'm definitely showing my stripes as a "coastal elite" by not knowing much of anything about the generosity/funding of Southern and Midwestern states ... I'm definitely not implying that California and NY are the only games in town.
There's also local level government funding -- another reason for artists to live in cities. I can rant extensively about how this impacts local arts ecology/economies in terms of "rich city/poor city" issues, where the rich city gives the bigger grants, so the artists present their work in the rich city, and meet residency criteria often on technicalities, but because the rich city is rich, they move to the poor city, which does not have the money to do such generous granting ... anyway ...
― sarahell, Tuesday, 16 April 2019 17:46 (four years ago) link
Self-playing/midi acoustic pianos rule, it's how Drukqs was made
― change display name (Jordan), Tuesday, 16 April 2019 17:53 (four years ago) link
The Kyle Gann album too
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Tuesday, 16 April 2019 17:55 (four years ago) link
Seth Horvitz's "Eight Studies for Automatic Piano" too
― mh, Tuesday, 16 April 2019 18:40 (four years ago) link
thanks to everyone helping to contribute to my thread tangent I pushed to get away from a more irritating thread tangent
on the good on-topic material: good post, sarahell!
― mh, Tuesday, 16 April 2019 18:42 (four years ago) link
^ Agreed!
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Tuesday, 16 April 2019 18:57 (four years ago) link
Yes that was very informative, thank you!
― flamboyant goon tie included, Tuesday, 16 April 2019 21:16 (four years ago) link
Are there any examples of American bands paying for recording or other costs with grants?
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 16 April 2019 21:24 (four years ago) link
There are several organizations - the Robert Bielecki Foundation and Giant Step Arts, among others - that give jazz artists money specifically to make albums. (Giant Step also pays for manufacturing.)
― shared unit of analysis (unperson), Tuesday, 16 April 2019 21:29 (four years ago) link
it's been a while since I read the original piece, so sorry if this has been mentioned, but one common side stream of income I hear about is wedding and/or corporate gigs
― like, I’m eating an elephant head (katherine), Wednesday, 17 April 2019 00:35 (four years ago) link
IME musicians who get grants seem to be more aligned with experimental or otherwise artworld adjacent music scenes. Feel like stateside it’s more normal for visual artists to get grants
― Vapor waif (uptown churl), Wednesday, 17 April 2019 13:52 (four years ago) link
one common side stream of income I hear about is wedding and/or corporate gigs
Almost as odd as teaching music
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Wednesday, 17 April 2019 14:31 (four years ago) link
Weddings did wonders for Omar Souleyman.
― pomenitul, Wednesday, 17 April 2019 14:36 (four years ago) link
Jazz is an institutionalized form though.
Also most of the musicians I know who play wedding gigs and teach lessons are jazz musicians (because they can read, play any style, etc).
― change display name (Jordan), Wednesday, 17 April 2019 14:46 (four years ago) link
Classical musicians = chopped liver, clearly :P
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Wednesday, 17 April 2019 14:52 (four years ago) link
its always amusing to see Echolyn videos on YouTube because there's always a comment like "that's my music teacher's band!!"
― frogbs, Wednesday, 17 April 2019 15:03 (four years ago) link
I thought it was interesting that the band who did "Cool Kids" were music teachers for a second.
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Wednesday, 17 April 2019 15:12 (four years ago) link
I have several music teacher friends who play in proggy bands.
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Wednesday, 17 April 2019 15:17 (four years ago) link
I'm not sure I really think of rock as less institutionalized than jazz, although I'm not really clear on what is meant by "institutionalized". Certainly not when it comes to Suicidal Tendencies.
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Wednesday, 17 April 2019 15:44 (four years ago) link
I mean taught in schools & universities, accepted on a mainstream level as a cultural good, available support from grants, organizations, local government, etc.
Suicidal Tendencies??? :)
― change display name (Jordan), Wednesday, 17 April 2019 15:51 (four years ago) link
Sorry, just a weak joke about a song titled "Institutionalized".
I spent a lot of the last three years supervising college-level rock and EDM recording/production projects and currently make a living mostly teaching kids stuff like AC/DC, Green Day, and Weezer songs (sometimes in Catholic schools) so I'm less convinced wrt what is being taught. Wrt grants, it seems like a tautology since that was the topic of discussion: pop/rock artists get loads of grants and public support in this country.
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Wednesday, 17 April 2019 15:57 (four years ago) link
That's Canada though, right? In the U.S. only energy drinks give EDM scholarships.
― change display name (Jordan), Wednesday, 17 April 2019 16:02 (four years ago) link
I was teaching at a US college the last three years but a coastal elite one tbf. Obv jazz has had a few more decades of academic institutionalization than rock so yeah if we're talking strictly about academic institutionalization. I guess I was thinking of "institutionalization" as something that could also refer to the institutions of major record labels, the broadcast industry, etc.
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Wednesday, 17 April 2019 16:04 (four years ago) link
playlists of mainstream politicians
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Wednesday, 17 April 2019 16:05 (four years ago) link
I regret to inform that energy drinks will no longer be giving EDM scholarships soon :(
― mh, Wednesday, 17 April 2019 16:20 (four years ago) link
I’m finally watching “The Good Place”; an ep. in S1 has one of the best EDM jokes evah
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Wednesday, 17 April 2019 16:33 (four years ago) link
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Wednesday, April 17, 2019 8:17 AM (one hour ago)
i know a lot of musicians who teach, and they are either strictly classical people (including traditional folk genres), or they play in proggy bands
― sarahell, Wednesday, 17 April 2019 16:57 (four years ago) link
― Vapor waif (uptown churl), Wednesday, April 17, 2019 6:52 AM (three hours ago)
Not really. There is more grant money available to the performing arts vs. visual art in the U.S. ... and it is often built on the following ideas/assumptions: visual art is more commercial -- in that the work is more easily saleable for significant sums of music; and performing arts are more public, in that they provide more of a "service" to the public, that is, audiences. It depends on the genre/sub-genre of both disciplines however.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 17 April 2019 17:02 (four years ago) link
I'm not sure I really think of rock as less institutionalized than jazz, although I'm not really clear on what is meant by "institutionalized". Certainly not when it comes to Suicidal Tendencies.― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Wednesday, April 17, 2019 8:44 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post PermalinkI mean taught in schools & universities, accepted on a mainstream level as a cultural good, available support from grants, organizations, local government, etc.Suicidal Tendencies??? :)― change display name (Jordan), Wednesday, April 17, 2019 8:51 AM (one hour ago)
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Wednesday, April 17, 2019 8:44 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― change display name (Jordan), Wednesday, April 17, 2019 8:51 AM (one hour ago)
There are also political issues involved in the institutionalization of jazz, in that it stands in for "artistic accomplishment by African-Americans" at a socially-acceptable "high culture" level. ... which has led to a lot of problematic arguments and discussions re the evolution of jazz and the role of white ppl in it, and class differences among African-Americans, and whether jazz is still "radical" because it has a presence at lincoln center as opposed to rap ... and way too many thinkpieces involving Wynton Marsalis and Kamasi Washington
― sarahell, Wednesday, 17 April 2019 17:07 (four years ago) link
but then Rat Bastard got a huge ass Knight Foundation grant for like putting on the International Noise Conference, but that's an outlier in terms of the conventions of music/arts funding
― sarahell, Wednesday, 17 April 2019 17:08 (four years ago) link
also i would like to thank ilx for expressing interest in the generally boring rarefied things I know/deal with as part of my job (or rather, many past jobs). ... feeling lots of <3 rn
― sarahell, Wednesday, 17 April 2019 17:12 (four years ago) link
This is honestly so interesting!
― flamboyant goon tie included, Wednesday, 17 April 2019 19:49 (four years ago) link
I have some imaginary comedy sketch in my head where a group of musicians from different parts of north america are talking about funding and grants and one ends up pointing a finger and exclaiming "but you're subsidized.. BY CANCON!!"
― mh, Wednesday, 17 April 2019 20:51 (four years ago) link
Sarahell, def otm about the jazz stuff.
At one point I got really sick of doing jazz gigs because it felt irrelevant, was often musical wallpaper, etc. Now I love doing them because you get paid and it doesn't matter if anyone comes or if they listen, and the free food and drinks are way better than playing original music in a diy space.
― change display name (Jordan), Wednesday, 17 April 2019 22:03 (four years ago) link
I can see the transition from the paying for a copy business model to the paying for usage business model reaching a climaxwhen they finally get the chips planted in our heads. Music lovers, who have songs floating in and out of their consciousnessall day, will have a hefty bill to pay at the end of the month.
― nicky lo-fi, Thursday, 18 April 2019 13:57 (four years ago) link
a chilling vision of the future
― After Cease to Brexist (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 18 April 2019 14:23 (four years ago) link
https://www.riaa.com/u-s-sales-database/
this is through 2018. Adjusted for inflation, the 1999 peak is $21+ Bil., with 2018 revenues at $9.5 Bil.
― campreverb, Thursday, 18 April 2019 14:51 (four years ago) link
people must've been downloading like crazy in the 1970s
― After Cease to Brexist (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 18 April 2019 14:52 (four years ago) link
i think it was due to the changes in British currency?
― sarahell, Thursday, 18 April 2019 14:54 (four years ago) link
lmao
― Boris Bronfentrinker of Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan (bizarro gazzara), Thursday, 18 April 2019 14:55 (four years ago) link
lol
― pomenitul, Thursday, 18 April 2019 14:58 (four years ago) link
the real winter of discontent: huge threepenny-bitBerg of '71 causes greatest threat to sterling since some numpt bought too many tulips and ended up eating them.
― calzino, Thursday, 18 April 2019 15:40 (four years ago) link
https://www.riaa.com/u-s-sales-database/this is through 2018. Adjusted for inflation, the 1999 peak is $21+ Bil., with 2018 revenues at $9.5 Bil.
That's helpful, thanks. It seems that the industry is back to about inflation-adjusted 1985 profit levels, which is not disastrous by any stretch, and if artists are being compensated or treated worse than they were at that time, that would be a shame. The CD boom of the 90s was something of a bubble.
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Friday, 19 April 2019 13:29 (four years ago) link
Ringtones still raking in a cool 25 mil.
― bendy, Friday, 19 April 2019 14:35 (four years ago) link
Karlheinz Stockhausen working as an *accompanist to a stage magician has to be up there in the oddest odd jobs department.
(*not assistant, sadly)
― Freddie Starr (Hitler in shorts) (Tom D.), Saturday, 27 April 2019 19:32 (four years ago) link
When I heard that Philip Glass and Steve Reich both worked as movers before they were able to make a living off their music, I invented a "joke". I pictured them moving a heavy wardrobe up a flight of stairs. Philip says, "Steve, you're always moving slightly faster than me and we're getting out of sync." Steve said, "Phil, that's the twentieth time you've said that and it's getting tiresome."
― flamboyant goon tie included, Saturday, 27 April 2019 20:17 (four years ago) link
wow lol !
― budo jeru, Saturday, 27 April 2019 20:32 (four years ago) link
yeah, that's a really good joke! I may steal that one
― Paul Ponzi, Saturday, 27 April 2019 20:35 (four years ago) link
i laughed irl
― maura, Saturday, 27 April 2019 20:39 (four years ago) link
spectacularpectacularsectacularspctacularspetacularspecacularspectcularspectaularspectaclarspectacuarspectaculrspectacula
― be the 2 chainz you want 2 see in the world (m bison), Saturday, 27 April 2019 21:13 (four years ago) link
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Saturday, 27 April 2019 23:43 (four years ago) link
LOL!!!
― Elvis Telecom, Sunday, 28 April 2019 21:59 (four years ago) link
:)
― flamboyant goon tie included, Sunday, 28 April 2019 22:33 (four years ago) link