Nirvana: ENOUGH already!

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For lack of anything better to read over a sincerely dubious plate of scrambled eggs this morning, I picked up the latest (i think) issue of NME at my local newsstand, featuring still-quite-dead Kurt Cobain on the cover. Vainly hoping to see some tiny news nugget about "Killing Joke back in the studio with a new lease on life after death" or even something about a genuinely *NEW* band that might pique my curiosity, I was instead inundated with page after page after page of "the legacy of Nirvana" and whatnot. Witness this completely idiotic quote from Alex White of some band called The Electric Soft Parade:

"Kurt Cobain was the king of teenage angst, and when he committed
suicide, he was instantly a legend. His death added to the romance and
mystique of his lifestyle. He's up there now having a jam with Morrison and Hendrix, with Keith Moon on drums!"


Now, for a start, I've never heard of the Electric Soft Parade (but I can tell already they're not big on originality based on their name), so maybe I should know better, but c'mon......"the romance and mystique of his lifestyle"?!?!?!?!? He was a loser from Aberdeen, Washington who wore flannel, did smack, bitched about stomach pains and played in a garage band that basically appropriated the work of several other bands.....WHERE'S THE ROMANCE & MYSTIQUE IN THAT? And don't even get me started on that claptrap about "jamming with Morrison, Hendrix and Moon"....what a load of shit. Fuckin' graveside groupies!

Moreover, for all this talk about how the two other thirds of Nirvana were battling with Courtney about "cashing-in" and "exploitation" and "properly serving Kurt's memory," between the media blitz over the
frankly-not-wildy-impressive "new" track ("You Know You're Right," appended to a best-of that contains no other surprises but tracks that even passive fans probably already have a couple of times over) and the glossily published tome of Kurt's diaries (and.....really.....what the fuck is that about? Do you really think the sad little man himself would have wanted that shit published?) I'm left with just a sickening aftertaste of hypocrisy and opportunism.

The only justice will be if the album (let alone the forthcoming box set) fails to chart as spectacularly as expected and slidesjustifiably into for-fans-only obscurity.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 15 November 2002 18:28 (twenty-one years ago) link

what's your question? (you're kidding about the killing joke, right?)

dan (dan), Friday, 15 November 2002 18:36 (twenty-one years ago) link

I'm sure the shy Mr. Kobain would be mortified at the release of his diaries. And I doubt he'd want to jam with flashy rock stars either, but who knows. Anyway, I don't think the Nirvana catalog has been milked in a spectacularly tasteless or overdone way; really, I'm actually surprised at DGC's restraint. That quote you read in the NME was stupid, Alex, but you shouldn't let it spoil your breakfast.

Sean (Sean), Friday, 15 November 2002 18:38 (twenty-one years ago) link

er, Cobain with a "C", Kurt with a "K"...

Sean (Sean), Friday, 15 November 2002 18:38 (twenty-one years ago) link

you're kidding about the killing joke, right?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 15 November 2002 18:39 (twenty-one years ago) link

Way back when Nirvana first hit, I totally ignored them. The more hype I heard, the more I tuned out. By about last year I was convinced they were the most overrated band in history.

Finally, the new single came out, they started playing live footage of Nirvana, etc, etc. And I have come to realize, of all the grunge bands who "hit it big," they were probably the best. Granted, sometimes their distortion out-breaks were too much "GOD WE WANT TO BE SONIC YOUTH", but they had their merits and were a great pop band.

Also, "mystique", weren't they invented to be the anti-mystique?

David Allen, Friday, 15 November 2002 18:43 (twenty-one years ago) link

"He's up there now having a jam with Morrison and Hendrix, with Keith Moon on drums!"

When Cobain killed himself the NME published a fan's tribute almost exactly like this and verbally ripped it to shreds.

Gen (Gen), Friday, 15 November 2002 18:57 (twenty-one years ago) link

especially since what the hell do they think Morrison would be DOING in said "jam"? reciting his goddam poetry? playing the musical zipper?

Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 15 November 2002 19:01 (twenty-one years ago) link

Whipping out his ghost dong!

Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Friday, 15 November 2002 19:18 (twenty-one years ago) link

Andtrying on various leather pants. Which gives the better whipping out action.

Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Friday, 15 November 2002 19:31 (twenty-one years ago) link

Hendrix isn't playing with them. He's playing air hockey with Ben Franklin. Getting his ass kicked too.

dave225 (Dave225), Friday, 15 November 2002 19:46 (twenty-one years ago) link

Wasn't "Ghost Dong" a Jim Jarmusch movie?

TMFTML (TMFTML), Friday, 15 November 2002 19:47 (twenty-one years ago) link

Kurt Cobain's gone to hell because he committed suicide, though. Don't these fuxxors know anything about theology?

Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Friday, 15 November 2002 19:49 (twenty-one years ago) link

He's jamming with Rudolph Hess, Ghengis Khan, and Lucky Luciano.

Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Friday, 15 November 2002 19:50 (twenty-one years ago) link

Wonderful OTM intro essay, Alex.

I'd peek into Jaz Coleman's diaries any day over those from the Seattle crown prince of frat rock.

Count me in with the crowd of people who think Nirvana were just an average band. Maybe slightly above average, but who's counting?

Tim D, Friday, 15 November 2002 20:24 (twenty-one years ago) link

calum to thread!

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 15 November 2002 20:25 (twenty-one years ago) link

''what's your question? (you're kidding about the killing joke, right?)''

the frightening is that he isn't. its quite funny when DJ martian rants abt NME and then says that there's no news abt the new killing joke. you know, a whole rant abt them not coverring new music and then he spoils it by talking abt killing joke.

actually those two should get married. i think that would be appropriate.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 15 November 2002 20:29 (twenty-one years ago) link

Well, for what it's worth, Julio, Killing Joke *DO* have a *NEW* album about to come out (slated February `03), produced by Andy Gill. So it wasn't that unrealistic a hope to spot some semblance of a Joke reference in a new music periodical. But, it's true -- NME have a long-standing fatwa against all things Killing Joke, possibly due to some incident involving a valentine's box filled with maggots and a cow's heart being dumped on a journalist's desk at one point.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 15 November 2002 20:46 (twenty-one years ago) link

that woz Melody Maker, Alex.

the facts, Julio:

It woz me that alerted Alex to ILM last year.

first website to report the name of Killing Joke's new album and full tracklisting - my weblog. Tuesday 5th November - breaking news relayed from The Gathering Killing Joke mailing list. Still no news from the NME, they ignore bands such as The Chameleons and Killing Joke.

slagging off of no mark NME approved trad britpoppers Electric Soft Parade - earlier this year - my weblog.

Nirvana are an average band - I have always acknowledged this year, and again stated this last week on my weblog.

providing Info on (reissue) and new albums released this year by Derek Bailey, and many other improvised/avant garde types e.g Tony Conrad, Sun Ra, Iannis Xenakis - i.e rated by Julio - read my weblog !

...the only place on the web to cover all these things,

DJ Martian's Page essential music info on the web in one place.

DJ Martian (djmartian), Friday, 15 November 2002 21:08 (twenty-one years ago) link

that was a joke BTW (only because I've recently read the killing joke thread otherwise I didn't know that you (martian) thought they were 'the most improtant band for 20 years' or what not).

The thing is if Killing joke had packed it in and NME did a special on them you two wouldn't be complaining, I reckon.

''...the only place on the web to cover all these things''

all these 'weird' and 'wonderful' things eh martian. its all good.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 15 November 2002 21:28 (twenty-one years ago) link

Julio, but why don't you read my weblog anymore? As you indicated the other day. It's not just new music - I provide info on reissues as well.

DJ Martian (djmartian), Friday, 15 November 2002 21:40 (twenty-one years ago) link

Julio, NME is more of a music now magazine - except for their big historical approved bands that they cover in a retro style.

I hope that Uncut - would do a Killing Joke special - e.g a front cover to tie in with the new album and retro feature, why not? would make a change from the same boring 60s types.

DJ Martian (djmartian), Friday, 15 November 2002 21:47 (twenty-one years ago) link

Martian- sorry, i think it is informative and you provide useful links.

its just that a lot of the music you're into i don't like really (but that's not so important). However, I think there's too much list making and too many anti-NME rants (I did stop reading yr blog a while ago so I don't know if its changed). the thing is yr rants are OTM but for me the NME doesn't exist. its the whole i wish NME were dead tomorrow thing that gets tiresome after a while.

but also i only pick up what i see on the shops here in london. i don't feel the need to keep up with what's happening in music this year etc. I don't think the date on the back of a record is of any importance whatsoever.

so the way i'm thinking abt things has changed.

but also I do put all my internet time on both ILM AND ILE now but anyway keep it up martian. your blog is a fantastic source of info and i might return to it someday.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 15 November 2002 22:02 (twenty-one years ago) link

''I hope that Uncut - would do a Killing Joke special - e.g a front cover to tie in with the new album and retro feature, why not? would make a change from the same boring 60s types.''

x starts buying recs in the 80s, rants at mags doing covers on 60s types.

y starts buying recs in the 00s, rants at mags doing covers on 80s types.

and on it goes...

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 15 November 2002 22:07 (twenty-one years ago) link

Didn't NME and Melody Maker merge a while back, though? Thus, wouldn't any long-standing grudge between Melody Maker and the Joke carry over?

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 15 November 2002 22:28 (twenty-one years ago) link

No Alex, for about two weeks after the demise of Melody Maker - NME mentioned the MM on the cover - then nowt. Sadly the legacy of MM - has long gone, the NME soon focused on the single brand.

I don't think you can say something that happened back in 1986, would carry over to 2002. The only bloke at the NME now that would remember the incident would be Steve "I made a career out of music journalism" Sutherland. Sutherland is now the editorial director of the NME.

Killing Joke have never been a NME approved band.

DJ Martian (djmartian), Friday, 15 November 2002 22:42 (twenty-one years ago) link

Julio, some sidetracked thoughts

Generation Y - don't read Uncut ! they more likely to read Kerrang and/or NME.

Anyway - when Q was launched in 1986 it covered the boring 60s stuff, then Mojo was launched early 90s - and covered more retro stuff than Q - and still in 2002 - Mojo covers the same 60s stuff again and again. Uncut has been boring of late re front covers choice in 2001 and 2002, too many of the same names recycled again and again.

Killing Joke for front cover of Uncut.

Blog in 2002 - actually there are less long lists - I have managed info better in 2002 re archives and better presentation of info/ less duplication compared with the blog in 2001/ 2000, also less anti NME rants - only when something particularly annoys me that I mention it, I don't do anti NME rants every week !

As I have said before if NME had some weekly competition that covered music that was closer in scope/coverage to my weblog - then I would not focus on my opposition to the NME, however I don't approve of NME's weekly monopoly position - and their bullshit generated worldview that goes unchallenged elsewhere in print, due to a lack of a weekly competitor. e.g Back in the late 80s I couldn't give a stuff about the NME's agenda - I had Melody Maker ans Sounds each week.

Re my weblog, In 2002 there is more of a focus on providing quality info re forthcoming releases so I/ the readers can explore things further - take from it whatever takes your interest. Sure I don't expect everyone to agree / or find everything of interest re: the scope of music i cover.

The blog is just a starting point (unlike a personal reviews site - that are after consumption oriented), I provide upfront information first..primarily focused on breaking news and forthcoming releases.

Yes I know you don't like the style of my rants, Julio and I can see why - there not rigorous or indepth serious, there often more in a Mr Abusing/ TTT olde Melody Maker styleee. There needs to be balance of coverage, between the serious and lighthearted coverage - something that i enjoyed back in the heyday of Melody Maker.

Re: but also i only pick up what i see on the shops here in london. i don't feel the need to keep up with what's happening in music this year etc. I don't think the date on the back of a record is of any importance whatsoever.

But this year's music 2002 - will be in few years time - music from the near past. By have a better understanding of the now, for me means i continually improve my ongoing personal perception/ appreciation/ enjoyment/ understanding of music. Music is constantly evolving.

Julio, surely we all live in the NOW - you can still mix the past and the present. Anyway if your approach works for you, then all the best. But I still can't see why the enforced disinterest in music of the NOW i.e this year?

Re: but also I do put all my internet time on both ILM AND ILE now but anyway keep it up martian. your blog is a fantastic source of info and i might return to it someday.

Julio, go on try to allocate some time each day. Also one weekend catch up with 2002 in the monthly Archives.

DJ Martian (djmartian), Friday, 15 November 2002 23:46 (twenty-one years ago) link

more david sylvian, please....

bahtology, Saturday, 16 November 2002 13:07 (twenty-one years ago) link

u may b sick of nirvana, understandably, but jst cos people have died is no reason to forget them and not still love their music. and by the way, jimi hendrix is god, so he's up there teachin the angels what it's like to live.

cathii (cathii), Saturday, 16 November 2002 16:03 (twenty-one years ago) link

Sorry, but you're an idiot.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 16 November 2002 17:48 (twenty-one years ago) link

stick it the 16 yr old girls big man!!

jess (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 16 November 2002 17:53 (twenty-one years ago) link

Smallness of years does not excuse idiocy.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 16 November 2002 17:58 (twenty-one years ago) link

Jimi Hendrix teaching the angels how to live = best post ever.

Ally (mlescaut), Saturday, 16 November 2002 18:22 (twenty-one years ago) link

Just be happy that there was only song to be released. It looks like Cobain will be spared the fate of Tupac who's had every demo he ever did released. Soon they'll just start releasing material with Tupac's name on it L. Ron Hubbard style.

Dave Beckhouse (Dave Beckhouse), Saturday, 16 November 2002 20:06 (twenty-one years ago) link

were the eggs runny? sorry if they were runny hun.

kephm, Saturday, 16 November 2002 22:04 (twenty-one years ago) link

i think he must be sharing needles with duane goettel.

kephm, Saturday, 16 November 2002 22:07 (twenty-one years ago) link

Jimi hendrix is teaching angels how to live. I'm 23 years young.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 16 November 2002 22:10 (twenty-one years ago) link

I can't wait to get to heaven now!!

Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Sunday, 17 November 2002 03:49 (twenty-one years ago) link

Soon they'll just start releasing material with Tupac's name on it L. Ron Hubbard style.

In anticipation of this I have recorded a new song entitled "My Thugz They Don't Sweat Me." Acoustic guitar, 808 emulator and voice. I eager await releasing it under the Tupac imprimatur.

J0hn Darn13ll3 (J0hn Darn13ll3), Sunday, 17 November 2002 19:36 (twenty-one years ago) link

sixteen years pass...

D Growl so technically proficient and exact like a robot. Like every fill on “in bloom” is exactly the same as every other. Where’s the swing, where’s the improvisation? Ultimately boring

calstars, Monday, 7 January 2019 20:36 (five years ago) link

Hot take!

kornrulez6969, Monday, 7 January 2019 20:45 (five years ago) link

revive of the century

macropuente (map), Monday, 7 January 2019 21:01 (five years ago) link

Imagine if in 1994 Cobain stayed in rehab and Grohl choked to death on a microwave burrito.

Infidels, Like Dylan In The Eighties (C. Grisso/McCain), Monday, 7 January 2019 21:05 (five years ago) link

Grohl could hold his own in improvisations though, especially 'Gallons of Rubbing Alcohol...' and 'The Other Improv'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44uSksPOHtg

flappy bird, Monday, 7 January 2019 21:09 (five years ago) link

as far as being a more adventurous player, from what I've read Grohl was on his toes the entire time he was in the band, expecting to be fired eventually given their history with drummers. Kurt is pretty testy with him in Unplugged.

flappy bird, Monday, 7 January 2019 21:10 (five years ago) link

On a Lou Reed scale of 1 to 10..

How testy was Kurt to Dave?

Mark G, Tuesday, 8 January 2019 08:31 (five years ago) link

sixteen years pass...

Ouch.

Or, put it another way (and since this thread mentions the Chameleons), around the era of this thread ILM had got all Chameleonsed out and I read somewhere on here about how there was this old forgotten classic "Strange Times", seemed like p. much ancient history really but it was new to me. That record was 16 years old at the time, which was 16 years ago now...

a passing spacecadet, Tuesday, 8 January 2019 10:57 (five years ago) link

The craziest Grohl Machine story I saw was the QOTSA recording of "No One Knows." I just Grohl played it first on maybe drum pads and live cymbals then again the exact same way with real drums and no cymbals, and then they blended the takes? Let me look it up. Hard to do, for sure, especially since the track is pretty busy.

Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 8 January 2019 12:33 (five years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nncw_T6MKg8

Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 8 January 2019 12:43 (five years ago) link

D Growl so technically proficient and exact like a robot. Like every fill on “in bloom” is exactly the same as every other. Where’s the swing, where’s the improvisation? Ultimately boring

― calstars, Monday, January 7, 2019 12:36 PM (yesterday)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmtbsFW0tCw

Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Tuesday, 8 January 2019 18:05 (five years ago) link

Grohl was great as a drummer for Nirvana imo, better that than as a constantly posturing human meme bacon rock star.

omar little, Tuesday, 8 January 2019 18:08 (five years ago) link

On 'In Bloom' he's pretty much copying Chad Channing's drum part anyway.

Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Tuesday, 8 January 2019 18:18 (five years ago) link

god this band was awful. listening to their music beyond singles for the first time a cpl years ago was like a skeleton key unlocking the secret to why all rock bands have sucked for the entire duration of my life. https://i.ibb.co/v10wrc4/x2.gif

(ADVANCE) (320k vbr) (--V2) (aps) (diVX) (2CD) OST - SB (2019) (esby), Tuesday, 8 January 2019 18:18 (five years ago) link

sb

j., Tuesday, 8 January 2019 18:22 (five years ago) link

I've never listened to nirvana and thought "this rhythm section isn't good"

( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 8 January 2019 18:23 (five years ago) link

also rock bands don't sound like nirvana in the 21st century

( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 8 January 2019 18:23 (five years ago) link

i read somewhere during recordings they would try strobe lights to simulate a click track for grohl to play along to, but that didn't pan out -- he's apparently not as precise and robotic as you'd think!

Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 8 January 2019 18:33 (five years ago) link

nah they only tried that on Lithium, the only song Grohl couldn't get without a click track. and of course a failed take of Lithium led to Endless, Nameless

calstars- his drumming is less contained on In Utero (obv bc of the songs)

flappy bird, Tuesday, 8 January 2019 18:49 (five years ago) link

I've never listened to nirvana and thought "this rhythm section isn't good"

― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, January 8, 2019 11:23 AM (twenty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

a really otm post

jolene club remix (BradNelson), Tuesday, 8 January 2019 18:50 (five years ago) link

the strobe light was an albini gimmick i thought. that would be interesting to hear an albini-recorded nevermind

Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 8 January 2019 18:54 (five years ago) link

xp I'm not into Chad's drumming at all but yeah they were never terrible

flappy bird, Tuesday, 8 January 2019 18:58 (five years ago) link

Nirvana was cool, though they never were really completely my thing. i think what's pretty accurate is how they did help kill hair metal but what's less stated is how The Black Album likely laid the foundation where radio was ready for the singles from Nevermind. That coupled w/some incredibly bad releases from a lot of mainstream pop metal giants, and the lack of lasting excitement over the Use Your Illusions. It wasn't overnight though, Adrenalize and that Slaughter album got some desperate "please make these albums happen" airplay in '92.

omar little, Tuesday, 8 January 2019 18:59 (five years ago) link

never thought about that, I always thought The Black Album came out the same day as Nevermind, but it came out a month before (with "Enter Sandman" released in late July)

flappy bird, Tuesday, 8 January 2019 19:19 (five years ago) link

ENOUGH Already! is still my favorite Nirvana album.

Hootie and the Banshees (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 8 January 2019 19:28 (five years ago) link

FUIUD

Hootie and the Banshees (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 8 January 2019 19:28 (five years ago) link

is my second favorite Nirvana album.

Hootie and the Banshees (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 8 January 2019 19:29 (five years ago) link

As someone who has thought all along that Nirvana is possibly the single most overrated band in history, I'll take anything as close to backlash as I can get.

Allow me to bask in this gloriousness.

(basking)

Totally different head. Totally. (Austin), Tuesday, 8 January 2019 19:30 (five years ago) link

I cannot think of him without immediately thinking of THE BEST! THE BEST! THE BEST! THE BEST!!!!

frogbs, Tuesday, 8 January 2019 19:32 (five years ago) link

I was told by a studio engineer many years ago that "In Bloom" sounded that way because it was a Butch Vig copy and paste job. Have no idea if that is true or not, but I could believe it.

Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Tuesday, 8 January 2019 19:34 (five years ago) link

that makes sense.

calstars, Tuesday, 8 January 2019 19:43 (five years ago) link

This is a great sounding album, take a listen to the MFSL disc.... actually don't do that y'all probably will say it sounds like numetal

brimstead, Tuesday, 8 January 2019 19:51 (five years ago) link

As someone who was much more drawn to rap & “rhythmic format” dance / house as a kid, and who hated the bands that drew directly on their sound, most of my life (And well into adulthood) I had a kind of respectful disinterest in this band ... they’d also been so fully canonized that it was hard to see through the thick layers of hyperbole and rockist discourse ... never thought they were “overrated” as much as “impossible to rate” without feeling the burdensome weight of 100000 previous conversations and just as many musical tropes and cliches

I revisited the whole catalog though recently, feeling like it was finally time, and I completely love them and, trite as it may seem, their music really has aged incredibly well. They may have introduced a tide of terrible imitators but they all do *such* a bad job of the imitation; it’s very clear to me there are things nirvana could do and did that were inimitable and that they also did more efficiently than their influences ... idk I feel like I’m speaking the obvious here but their ability to speak to certain uglier emotions in a pop structure without trivializing those emotions or making them feel like juvenile entitled bullshit... idk I think it’s aged abt as well as something can

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Tuesday, 8 January 2019 20:09 (five years ago) link

hilarious (over)analysis itt

ask someone who was there if Nirvana was good or not

alpine static, Tuesday, 8 January 2019 20:35 (five years ago) link

In anticipation of this I have recorded a new song entitled "My Thugz They Don't Sweat Me." Acoustic guitar, 808 emulator and voice. I eager await releasing it under the Tupac imprimatur.

― J0hn Darn13ll3 (J0hn Darn13ll3), Sunday, November 17, 2002 2:36 PM

Your sweetie-pie-coo-coo I love ya (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 8 January 2019 21:30 (five years ago) link

deej otm

jolene club remix (BradNelson), Tuesday, 8 January 2019 21:30 (five years ago) link

Oooh yea the "In Bloom" drums are cool. Some Ringo-esq simplicity, or if Ringo was a hard hitter I guess.

billstevejim, Tuesday, 8 January 2019 22:01 (five years ago) link

i think the main thing that's helped nirvana stand the test of time is the sheer strength of the songwriting--familiar chords played in unfamiliar order, modes and substitutions straight out of tin pan alley, and that's before you get to the lyrics, which were always memorable even at their worst (looking at you, polly)

bros before HOOS (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 8 January 2019 22:08 (five years ago) link

Can you go on about the unusual chord sequences and melodies? I remember reading a really interesting post on Cobain’s “modal tendencies” here on ILX but I can’t find it in the infinity of Nirvana/KC threads.

flappy bird, Tuesday, 8 January 2019 23:27 (five years ago) link

ask someone who was there if Nirvana was good or not

I was. They weren't.

Totally different head. Totally. (Austin), Tuesday, 8 January 2019 23:37 (five years ago) link

I was, they were, but at the same time I never need to hear another note of their music for the rest of my life

Οὖτις, Tuesday, 8 January 2019 23:38 (five years ago) link

I was pretty early (Jabberjaw & Iguana shows) and they were pretty good! But honestly... I liked Tad more.

https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/nirvana/1991/iguanas-tijuana-mexico-43d67f03.html
https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/nirvana/1991/jabberjaw-los-angeles-ca-7bd6caa4.html

Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Tuesday, 8 January 2019 23:42 (five years ago) link

(...and still do!)

Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Tuesday, 8 January 2019 23:43 (five years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0-QESafo50

flappy bird, Tuesday, 8 January 2019 23:51 (five years ago) link

I was, they were, but at the same time I never need to hear another note of their music for the rest of my life

ditto

A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Wednesday, 9 January 2019 00:01 (five years ago) link

xp: ^^^^At 52:24 you can feast your ears on the very first performance of "Come As You Are"

Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Wednesday, 9 January 2019 00:04 (five years ago) link

Can you go on about the unusual chord sequences and melodies?

My favorite example is probably Lithium--the first half of the chord progression is fairly common (D F#m Bm G), but the second half of the progression seems to modulate with every chord change (Bb C A C). Someone with more theory expertise can explain exactly what's going on, but that kind of progression is more common in, say, show tunes than rock music. It's surprisingly jaunty when you play it on the piano.

In a lot of other songs, he'll do a little major/minor substitution that adds a bit of comedy, or a bit of tension. Like in Heart-Shaped Box, going to the major IV instead of the minor iv on the "real complaint" chord. Or in Teen Spirit, which throws in that Db chord instead of the much more common C or C minor.

bros before HOOS (voodoo chili), Wednesday, 9 January 2019 00:54 (five years ago) link

Yeah, I remember that analysis. Like, the pixies would also do that major substitution for a minor chord to give a sort of manic feel, but unlike frank black Kurt would fit his vocal melodies around the chord substitution, modulating with them, rather than against them

Vapor waif (uptown churl), Wednesday, 9 January 2019 00:57 (five years ago) link

i think what's pretty accurate is how they did help kill hair metal

This is one of those rock history truisms that's gotten a whole lot fuzzier the more I've read, and also given what I remember from that era firsthand. There's some truth there but it's usually overstated or embellished (not by you, but in so many other accounts) to the point that it distorts what was actually happening at that moment in popular culture.

On the one hand, as someone who started paying attention to rock as a preteen around 1994, the whole hair-band era felt indescribably ancient and foreign. But what felt foreign about it was mainly the image and the production style, both of which were already going out of fashion before Nevermind came out. So the landscape certainly changed but things were already going that way with or without Nirvana. Lots of post-Nirvana hard rock (Candlebox etc.) was just pop-metal in disguise anyway; the first rock album I ever bought, in the spring of '94 - Aerosmith's Get a Grip - was just regular old pop-metal, no disguise necessary, and it was fucking huge - that album came out in 1993 and sold clean through the next year, probably the peak of the grunge era. When the band followed up with a greatest hits at the end of 1994, it sold 4 million copies - almost as much as Vitalogy or Nirvana's Unplugged. And Guns N' Roses was very much still a big deal, including the Illusions records - my local hard rock station had at least 4 cuts from UYI II in regular rotation through 1995 or 1996. I mean, GNR has never really experienced a lull in popularity, but in the mid-nineties the Illusions records still felt pretty current and relevant even to a young listener who missed their supernova phase.

Def Leppard's popularity must have cratered just months before I started listening - they kept putting singles on the charts through mid-1994 but I never heard any of them; except maybe for a couple stray spins of "Photograph" or "Rock of Ages" I don't think I heard a thing they did until later in the decade. I might've heard a couple of Motley Crue tunes around that same time. The lesser hair bands were pretty much nonentities on radio at that point. But even before the nineties were out a hair band revival had started to take shape - driven mostly by VH1, whose turn-of-the-millenium programming was maybe the first major iteration of mass Eighties nostalgia.

I don't really have a point with all this but it's just interesting to reflect on. Did grunge sound like a foreign country to someone who was 12 years old in 2001?

the F word, the N word, raunchy sex, your name it (thewufs), Wednesday, 9 January 2019 01:05 (five years ago) link

i think w/GNR the albums felt mature and interesting in a way that was maybe a little unexpected and not exactly what was desired; the singles from the albums were played a lot but tbh i don't recall much culture-wide interest in UYI past the albums' releases and what at the time was a longer period of excitement for new albums. Maybe on the hard rock stations, as you said. They didn't experience the same type of plunge that Def Lep did, i mean after all the UYIs were actually good while Adrenalize just felt like it came from a band bereft of ideas and maybe completely wiped out after everything they went through.

Aerosmith benefited from the pop-metal phase but they always felt outside of it, they were to some of these metal dudes like Neil Young was to some grunge bands. They never really adapted to the times artificially, they just adapted slightly.

i don't think Nirvana killed these bands at all, it was more that their sudden ascendence and the success of other less clownish acts made the more low-hanging fruit bands (that were strictly that late '80s pop metal style) seem all the more absurd. But at the same time, it probably was less an actual death blow and more of Cobain and co rising up to fill the vacuum and grab the fan base these bands were beginning to leave behind. It didn't hurt that they (and Soundgarden and Pearl Jam and AiC) were all pretty interesting both sound wise and personality wise. They got huge pretty swiftly and everyone loved them and no one cared about those other bands, many of whom tried to adapt to the grunge sound and none of whom looked like anything but pathetic when doing so.

omar little, Wednesday, 9 January 2019 01:44 (five years ago) link

Aerosmith were exceptions to the rule: they were still riding the wave of a massive comeback that, while indebted partially to being Hair Metal forefathers, they managed to keep a foot outside of it as well. They were also able to reap the rewards of Classic Rock nostalgia that rose concurrent to Grunge (Dazed & Confused soundtrack, mid-90s CD remasters etc.). They were legacy artists that it was still okay to like.

XP Or what omar said...

Infidels, Like Dylan In The Eighties (C. Grisso/McCain), Wednesday, 9 January 2019 01:54 (five years ago) link

Def Leppard's popularity must have cratered just months before I started listening - they kept putting singles on the charts through mid-1994 but I never heard any of them; except maybe for a couple stray spins of "Photograph" or "Rock of Ages" I don't think I heard a thing they did until later in the decade.

Adrenalize is a classic New Jersey, but "Two Steps Behind" got massive airplay in summer '93, a hair metal ballad in name only.

Also: holdovers like Ugly Kid Joe and Mr. Big.

Your sweetie-pie-coo-coo I love ya (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 9 January 2019 01:57 (five years ago) link

This whole narrative is ahistorical bullshit. Skid Row's second album went double platinum three months before Nevermind came out. "Hair metal" bands continued to make records, and sell records, well into the 1990s. Yes, a few bands like Warrant saw their promotional budgets go down, and a few others just naturally fell off, and labels tried to find alt/grunge bands of their own once Nirvana was a hit, but nothing swept anything else away en masse. Soundgarden was sold as a metal act - their biggest tour before they "broke" was with Faith No More and Voivod. Alice In Chains was sold as a metal act - they opened the Monsters of Rock tour (Van Halen, Anthrax, Dokken IIRC) before they "broke."

grawlix (unperson), Wednesday, 9 January 2019 02:02 (five years ago) link

i think the main thing that's helped nirvana stand the test of time is the sheer strength of the songwriting--familiar chords played in unfamiliar order, modes and substitutions straight out of tin pan alley, and that's before you get to the lyrics, which were always memorable even at their worst (looking at you, polly)

― bros before HOOS (voodoo chili), Tuesday, January 8, 2019 4:08 PM (three hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otm.

i don’t often feel the need to stick up for nirvana because who cares but this is my opinion: KC wrote fantastic pop music. he had a preternatural sense of melody and song structure. his lyrics were unusual and delightful (brad N also otm). the songs are so fucking good.

the songs are also ruined by the worst production, too much compession, and KC’s affected vocals. the performances too are hampered by over-playing and a belabored faux heaviness — in other words, just kinda heavy handed.

rarely does the band approach the material, excellent as it is, with finesse, with any real attention to timbre or dynamics (and i don’t mean LOUD soft LOUD soft). it’s a shame and, imo, one of the more disappointing lost opportunities in pop music.

budo jeru, Wednesday, 9 January 2019 02:04 (five years ago) link

Michael Azzerrad had a good point about Nevermind's 'fluke' ascension in Come As You Are, saying something along the lines of how the album arrived against Michael Jackson's gradual decline w/Dangerous*, GnR putting out two albums at once, and U2 putting out an Art album, all of which worked in Nirvana's favor.

*And there's the long circulated anecdote about how Nevermind hit #1 after Xmas based on returns/exchanges for Dangerous.

Infidels, Like Dylan In The Eighties (C. Grisso/McCain), Wednesday, 9 January 2019 02:05 (five years ago) link

I think the glammiest, poppiest end of hair metal was already basically dead by 1990-91. It was probably bands like GNR and Metallica as much as anyone who drove the stake into its poodle-coiffed, coke-engorged heart. After that, even hair metal had to be a bit harder or smarter. Skid Row came across as darker and edgier than the glam bands of a few years earlier. This was also the era of progressive and technical hair metal like Queensryche, Tesla, Extreme, Winger, etc. Sure they had long hair, but these guys were serious musicians, man. It was kind of a late-mannerist phase, at least in retrospect. When Nirvana came along, it wasn't thirst for "authenticity" so much as for the hooks and hummable melodies that had slowly drained out of the increasingly grown-up pop metal scene.

o. nate, Wednesday, 9 January 2019 02:32 (five years ago) link

i think it was creative exhaustion w/a lot of those bands and also just a general sense that the next wave that was coming along was diminishing returns. it's not something specific to that genre at all, and like unperson said a lot of those bands continued to sell. their sales decline was less precipitous than their mainstream cultural one.

omar little, Wednesday, 9 January 2019 02:37 (five years ago) link

The Jackson vs. Nevermind battle was way overplayed. No one's mentioned the quietest, subtlest reason why Nirvana did so well: Soundscan. Garth Brooks was the season's other surprise hit. Turns out we'd been underestimating country sales for twenty years!

Also, the '92 pop chart gives no impression that indie won.

Your sweetie-pie-coo-coo I love ya (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 9 January 2019 02:42 (five years ago) link

Hip Hop too! NWA @ #1

Infidels, Like Dylan In The Eighties (C. Grisso/McCain), Wednesday, 9 January 2019 02:45 (five years ago) link

yep!

Your sweetie-pie-coo-coo I love ya (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 9 January 2019 02:45 (five years ago) link

NWA's #1 was a result of billboard shifting to soundscan rather than traditional label payola.

Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Wednesday, 9 January 2019 02:48 (five years ago) link

That millisecond rest that growl puts before the downbeats of the chorus of teen spirit is pretty great. You can hear it on the studio recording but it’s even more pronounced on the live set that flappy posted above

calstars, Wednesday, 9 January 2019 02:54 (five years ago) link

Bleach is a fantastic album imo

zwei dunkel jungen (crüt), Wednesday, 9 January 2019 02:59 (five years ago) link

xp tho the sheer magnitude of country music's success was a surprise post-soundscan, there was abundant evidence for like a year leading up to its introduction that the country format was growing rapidly. country music was not quietly doing garth brooks-level business for decades undetected.

dyl, Wednesday, 9 January 2019 03:41 (five years ago) link

No, of course, but Billboard had seriously underestimated the sales of Randy Travis, Yoakam, Clint Black, Rosanne Cash, etc

Your sweetie-pie-coo-coo I love ya (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 9 January 2019 03:43 (five years ago) link

Did grunge sound like a foreign country to someone who was 12 years old in 2001?

― the F word, the N word, raunchy sex, your name it (thewufs), Tuesday, January 8, 2019 8:05 PM (three hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I was 9 in 2001, I got Nevermind for Xmas that year. By the time the greatest hits came out a year later I was completely obsessed, had all the Outcesticides & many other bootlegs, remember waiting months to hear "You Know You're Right." At the time, third/fourth? wave grunge bands were all over MTV: Staind, Puddle of Mudd, Creed, 3 Doors Down... it was obvious to me at the time that this was runoff, and even though I loved Limp Bizkit, Korn, and Linkin Park (who are all more distinct than the other bands I mentioned that were straight carbon copies), they didn't have the depth or artistry that Nirvana did, and they never would. I was young but Nirvana's era seemed a million miles away to me, Kurt had already attained sainthood. at the same time, the pop punk bands like Green Day, blink-182, Sum 41, Jimmy Eat World, et al. were all doing their own thing but there was still a reverence and respect for Kurt (cf. the "Come As You Are" reference in blink's suicide song). He loomed over everything.

So that golden era - Nirvana, Pumpkins, Hole - didn't feel foreign, just a brilliant era that we were living in the shadow of, putting up with a worse, diluted version, with no one rising to their heights artistically.

flappy bird, Wednesday, 9 January 2019 04:46 (five years ago) link

System of a Down were a bracing one-off. "Chop Suey!" is the only song I remember hearing in that era and just being completely floored, perplexed, confused, overwhelmed - just WTF is this?? (in the best way)

flappy bird, Wednesday, 9 January 2019 04:48 (five years ago) link

when i was 11 in 2001 i heard nirvana mostly in the context of "smells like teen spirit" getting played by my classmates at the middle school talent show and hearing my brother tell my dad in the car that he heard it was supposed to the one of the best songs ever according to some magazine. i was like, okay, it's fine if you're into that kinda thing... but honestly it did feel very distantly removed from other music that just felt more vital and urgent to me. on some level i suspected the received wisdom was part of why so many my age seemed to like it, in the same way they liked beatles music that i didn't give a fuck about. i never *felt* it the way i did "chop suey"

dyl, Wednesday, 9 January 2019 05:14 (five years ago) link

pearl jam/eddie vedder was far more influential to the sound of mainstream rock music in the late '90s/early '00s than nirvana

bros before HOOS (voodoo chili), Wednesday, 9 January 2019 05:40 (five years ago) link

True... now that is some music I could never connect to

flappy bird, Wednesday, 9 January 2019 05:43 (five years ago) link

I wonder if any prom theme went for a nirvana song over pearl jam’s Black or even some Red Hot Chili Peppers song.

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 9 January 2019 05:46 (five years ago) link

i was actually there and have told this story elsewhere on ILM.

it was August 17, 1990 and i was going to see a band called Sonic Youth at the Hollywood Palladium on Sunset Boulevard. in these days we were typically late for shows, still kicking myself for being late for a Pale Saints show but i regress. if you notice the above date, it was 13 months before Vevermind came out. Nirvana were the opening band of three bands this night. i knew when i was watching the show i was experiencing something special and might have a story for the rest of my life. the performance that night blew my mind, i had no idea who the fuck Nirvana was but they put on a show for the ages. i remember Kurt climbing speakers and then threw himself off. i really thought he was going to hurt himself. i also remember thinking there is no way any band can follow what i just witnessed. i was right for the next band as they sucked or really could not come on after Nirvana. Sonic Youth were on point that night and had a great show. it was almost like they knew they had to do something special because of the Nirvana buzz that was in the Palladium that night.

flash forward about a year and a half later. a bunch of us were actually going to another show, i want to say it was the Blur/Pulp show but i could be wrong. we turned on KROQ and was listening to whatever they were playing. it happened to be request night and so they played "Smells Like" first, next request was "In Bloom and then "Come As You Are" which was all fine because they were singles, but why i'm telling this story is because the next request, which they were doing live on the air, was "Breed." anyways all the request were for Nevermind straight through. we could not turn off the radio as it felt like history, when did this band take over KROQ? they even played "Endless, Nameless" as the last caller said we have to finish with the hidden track don't we? i have never heard a whole album requested like that before, it just felt like a moment, yes "Smells Like" was starting to get big but it was a movement that i had never experienced before.

i also saw like the third to last US show they ever played but that is another story...

Bee OK, Wednesday, 9 January 2019 06:42 (five years ago) link

> Nirvana were the opening band of three bands this night.

early STP was the other band lol

Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Wednesday, 9 January 2019 07:11 (five years ago) link

pearl jam/eddie vedder was far more influential to the sound of mainstream rock music in the late '90s/early '00s than nirvana

― bros before HOOS (voodoo chili), Tuesday, January 8, 2019 11:40 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i dunno if i agree w this actually. or maybe i think the influence is just more obvious when someone is 'sounding like pearl jam' than when nirvana flows through their music, like nirvana created a blueprint (harmonic/melodic) that ppl could attach different sounds to whereas pearl jam was more like an overall feel and so you *know* when someone is biting pearl jam but (give or take a puddle of mudd) most of nirvana's influence became such a part of the fabric ... idk maybe i'm tripping.

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Wednesday, 9 January 2019 09:40 (five years ago) link

Thing is that Nirvana are still a very unique sounding band, like loads of can approximate the thrashy punk energy and the pop choruses but there are very few bands who can get anywhere near Kurt's sudden register shift, let alone the distinctive zombie lurch that a lot of their songs have. And yeah Grohl's drums are central to songs like In Bloom and Scentless Apprentice.

Matt DC, Wednesday, 9 January 2019 09:51 (five years ago) link

I was in full hipster mode as Nirvana emerged, college radio dj'ing and hearing a dozen new records and going to two gigs every week, and playing in hopeless bands. From this perspective, the shock was that Nirvana ended up being the anointed ones, singing to Geffin for tons of money and hitting big with noise intact.

By the late-80s there was a clear pipeline for "alternative" bands to get a sizable profile, and there was a lot of commercial niches one could occupy between, say, Stickmen with Rayguns and R.E.M.

SPIN was on every newsstand, and Rolling Stone had a college radio chart made up of mostly major label acts. It took a few album/tour/fanzine cycles for any given band to raise a profile. So the thing was, once a band had major-label promotion behind them, there were already in their second phase. To someone getting all their tips from fanzines, opening acts and word of mouth, this felt like selling out. There was excitement when Husker Du signed with full creative control, like they might put out something as harsh as "Plans I Make" on Warner Bros. But that side of them had burnt off.

Stickmen sounds pretty close to early Sub Pop, now that I re-listen. Throb, sarcasm, and the skidding feedback. I think the term "grunge" may have even been tossed around.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iiK0963YU8

"Grungy" was an adjective I recall us all using at the radio station to describe records coming through starting around '87, especially as Sabbath and Stooges became ascendant influences on bands moving out of their hardcore roots. You didn't want to say "metallic", even if Metallica and Celtic Frost were in rotation. 'Cause saying the word "metal" connoted pop metal for the most part. Green River were definately grungy, and were definately rising through the zine network with their Sabbath/Stooges sound. Summer of 88, Nirvana came through town when I was out of town, and made a big impression. I knew I'd missed something. I'd seen the U-Men a few years before. Soundgarden's early records went through the playlist bin and got enough attention that putting out an album on SST was a logical step, as did singing and getting marketed as a metal band. When I first heard Mudhoney's "You Got It", I thought it was gonna be huge. But like "Love Removal Machine" huge. That seemed like the upper limit for a band like that.

Bleach took off among my friends over the course of 1990. A friend sent me "Negative Creep" on a mixtape and it blew me away - Sonic Youth and Motorhead mashed together! In the context of the time and scene, Bleach was a record that ticked a lot of boxes. They might have put out the best Sub Pop record yet. But there was a feeling that some other Washington band might quickly surpass them. I was shocked when SPIN reported that they'd signed for a huge sum of money. As much as loved Bleach, I didn't think it was leading anywhere. Nevermind sounded slick in comparison on first listen. It took me a few plays to adapt to the glossier sound, but as it climbed the charts there was a sense of delight that a track like "Territorial Pissings" was headed into millions of teen bedrooms. Nirvana were the first band that moved through the system quickly enough that their spikes stayed sharp.

eva logorrhea (bendy), Wednesday, 9 January 2019 12:58 (five years ago) link

Can you go on about the unusual chord sequences and melodies?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMUkMGNX0Uk

My only Nirvana memories are that I had heard "Bleach" more or less when it came out and wasn't that impressed by it or much anything from Seattle at that point. My friends went to see them play at tiny JC Dobbs in Philly, but I blew it off. I assume it was this show?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDDLhq3Rpmo

I didn't really think about the band much again until I several months later actually got a phone call from a friend in Texas who was raving about "Smells Like Teen Spirit." I remember checking it out on MTV and thinking, yeah, that's pretty cool! If I'm being honest, though, I liked the first Pearl Jam album (which came out a couple of months before Nevermind?) more, but none of my hip friends wanted to see them at the Troc six months or so after that Nirvana show. And you might be thinking, Pearl Jam bleh, classic rock, etc., and you might be right. But my memory of the two bands is that I never heard "Ten" blasting out of cars in the school parking lot, but within a few months every jackass was blasting Nirvana. (I want to say, from memory, that blasting Pearl Jam became more of a thing with the next album, but who knows.)

Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 9 January 2019 13:32 (five years ago) link

> Nirvana were the opening band of three bands this night.

early STP was the other band lol

― Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli),

The name of that in between band was STP but wasn't Stone Temple Pilots. I remember them being all female or had a female lead singer.

Bee OK, Wednesday, 9 January 2019 17:16 (five years ago) link

ah yeah that was Julie Cafritz's band after Pussy Galore

Colonel Poo, Wednesday, 9 January 2019 17:20 (five years ago) link

I'm gonna politely disagree with you, here's the horse's mouth:

https://www.reviewjournal.com/uncategorized/scott-weiland-recalls-that-1990-vegas-concert-with-nirvana-and-sonic-youth/

Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Wednesday, 9 January 2019 17:38 (five years ago) link

counterpoint:

http://www.grungeforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=17050

Colonel Poo, Wednesday, 9 January 2019 17:43 (five years ago) link

...or do you think Weiland was so jacked up he imagined he was there? I see that there was this band with Julie & I recognize Jackie (from Dustdevils):

https://i.imgur.com/fzPt3VF.jpg

Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Wednesday, 9 January 2019 17:45 (five years ago) link

I could not convince any of the jerks in my high school social circle to drive into LA for that show, so I missed it. (I did not have a car at the time and my parents wouldn't let me drive one of theirs that far)

Οὖτις, Wednesday, 9 January 2019 17:46 (five years ago) link

It wasn't 1990, but I did see early Stone Temple Pilots shortly after with one-time Sonic Youth labelmates fIREHOSE & The Butthole Surfers so it's not like they weren't ever openers on unusual lineups.

Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Wednesday, 9 January 2019 17:52 (five years ago) link

unplugged remains the thing i listen to the most from nirvana

marcos, Wednesday, 9 January 2019 17:52 (five years ago) link

I'm almost positive that Colonel Poo link is correct. I'm pretty sure I saw a Riot Girl band that night. I'm also positive it was a girl lead singer. I know Scott can be feminine but it was a all girl STP band that night.

Bee OK, Wednesday, 9 January 2019 22:20 (five years ago) link

Yeah, seems like Scott Weiland was in a fever-dream moment and probably didn't remember much of the 90s so he just inserted himself in to history naively.

Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Wednesday, 9 January 2019 22:29 (five years ago) link

sincerely dubious plate of scrambled eggs

from OP, alex always had such great turns of phrase

Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 9 January 2019 22:40 (five years ago) link

https://i.imgur.com/9gdMoKk.jpg

Setlist that night:

1. Love Buzz (Shocking Blue cover)
2. Floyd the Barber
3. Scoff
4. Dive
5. About a Girl
6. Spank Thru
7. Breed
8. In Bloom
9. School
10. Been a Son
11. Negative Creep
12. Blew

Bee OK, Thursday, 10 January 2019 01:50 (five years ago) link

plus two hot bands

flappy bird, Thursday, 10 January 2019 02:06 (five years ago) link

Weiland doesn’t say anything at all in the quotes about playing those shows; the reporter has obviously made a mistaken assumption, asked Weiland ~something or other~, and he has given a response about the two bands, without ever saying he remembers or played the gig.

sans lep (sic), Thursday, 10 January 2019 03:14 (five years ago) link

in context, it seems more like someone asked him a question regarding his feelings for Sonic Youth and their influence

fuck the NRA (Neanderthal), Thursday, 10 January 2019 04:12 (five years ago) link

Man, Dustdevils. I haven't thought about them in a looooong while. Even when the major labels starting signing stuff they had no business signing, that era of early '90s noise never really escaped the margins, with the weird exception of Sonic Youth. That early Drag City/Matador stuff, AmRep, Sub Pop, Touch & Go ... just a total axis of guitar grind/grit.

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 10 January 2019 04:48 (five years ago) link

There is def. an axis of 1980s/early-‘90s underground bands that didn’t “bubble up” (though many had members who found more success in other ‘90s bands) — Live Skull, Skunk, Death of Samantha, etc, etc.

i stan corrected (morrisp), Thursday, 10 January 2019 05:03 (five years ago) link

Jesus, i was a disagreeable bastard, wasn't I.

Alex in NYC, Thursday, 10 January 2019 22:14 (five years ago) link

HONOUR THE FIRE

j., Thursday, 10 January 2019 22:20 (five years ago) link

Disarming thing about ILX is that it never goes away. I can age, grow, mature and start the natural process of mental erosion, but still....my frothy-mouthed opinions scream on in perpetuity here.

Alex in NYC, Thursday, 10 January 2019 22:21 (five years ago) link

Dustdevils, great album cover

brimstead, Thursday, 10 January 2019 22:29 (five years ago) link

<3 alex u one of the greats

Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 10 January 2019 22:30 (five years ago) link

Cheers, but reading some of the stuff I scribbled here over the years is sobering with a severity no "Dry January" could ever hope to touch.

Alex in NYC, Thursday, 10 January 2019 22:32 (five years ago) link

Don't look back, you can never look back.

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 10 January 2019 22:56 (five years ago) link

He's an Artist..

Mark G, Friday, 11 January 2019 16:29 (five years ago) link

I found the About a Son documentary to be lovely and compelling though also inevitably kind of sad.

o. nate, Tuesday, 15 January 2019 01:14 (five years ago) link

My favorite example is probably Lithium--the first half of the chord progression is fairly common (D F#m Bm G), but the second half of the progression seems to modulate with every chord change (Bb C A C). Someone with more theory expertise can explain exactly what's going on, but that kind of progression is more common in, say, show tunes than rock music. It's surprisingly jaunty when you play it on the piano.

This is a good example. Bb works as bVI, which is a common chromatic substitutition for vi (Bm), borrowed from the parallel minor key; plenty of examples of this in Romantic music, e.g. Schubert's "Du bist die Ruh", m. 57. Interesting that it comes soon after the diatonic vi. ("Blackbird" puts them right after each other, btw.) C could suggest mixture from the Mixolydian mode (or maybe borrowing a dominant-functioning chord from the parallel minor key) but it's interesting that they use it before and after the diatonic A chord (V), which, of course, contains a C#, so the chromaticism is clear. Chris McDonald's "Exploring Modal Subversions in Alternative Music" (Popular Music, Vol. 9, No. 3 (Oct 2000), pp. 355-363) is pretty good on this broader subject. I could pass on a copy if anyone's interested in it and can't get their hands on one.

Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Tuesday, 15 January 2019 02:43 (five years ago) link

I think the glammiest, poppiest end of hair metal was already basically dead by 1990-91. It was probably bands like GNR and Metallica as much as anyone who drove the stake into its poodle-coiffed, coke-engorged heart. After that, even hair metal had to be a bit harder or smarter. Skid Row came across as darker and edgier than the glam bands of a few years earlier. This was also the era of progressive and technical hair metal like Queensryche, Tesla, Extreme, Winger, etc. Sure they had long hair, but these guys were serious musicians, man. It was kind of a late-mannerist phase, at least in retrospect. When Nirvana came along, it wasn't thirst for "authenticity" so much as for the hooks and hummable melodies that had slowly drained out of the increasingly grown-up pop metal scene.

― o. nate, Tuesday, January 8, 2019 9:32 PM (six days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Also 'alternative metal' stuff like Living Colour, Faith No More, and King's X was getting played on the rock stations I listened to at 10-11 in 89-90. Even at that age, I could tell that 'hair metal' had run its course by 1990; it wasn't even necessarily that shocking that the next thing in rock might become something more like the 'alternative' music MuchMusic was playing on CityLimits. I wouldn't have suspected how big it would be, though. It was still spine-tingling to hear "Teen Spirit" for the first time.

Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Tuesday, 15 January 2019 02:56 (five years ago) link

I know it's slowed down a full step on the record, but isn't the chord progression of Lithium (as played live / on a guitar)

Em Ab Db A C D B D

flappy bird, Tuesday, 15 January 2019 03:41 (five years ago) link

that's the same progression a step higher

zwei dunkel jungen (crüt), Tuesday, 15 January 2019 03:46 (five years ago) link

except it should be E Abm Dbm

zwei dunkel jungen (crüt), Tuesday, 15 January 2019 03:47 (five years ago) link

Yeah, the intervals are the same.

Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Tuesday, 15 January 2019 03:49 (five years ago) link

i guess it's all power chords so in terms of what you play major/minor doesn't matter

zwei dunkel jungen (crüt), Tuesday, 15 January 2019 03:49 (five years ago) link

E-G#m would be v different from Em-G#. I'd be surprised if it were the latter but tbh I was taking voodoo chilli's word. Will go double check right now.xp And power chords would be different too.

Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Tuesday, 15 January 2019 03:51 (five years ago) link

Tbh, there's probably Nirvana bootlegs where various songs are played in different keys to the album versions. Not on purpose, but because the bands of the bands attitude to tuning.

Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Tuesday, 15 January 2019 03:54 (five years ago) link

Like, I'm quite sure I've seen footage where the guitar has gone out of tune, and Kurt is trying to tune to Krist, who is probably out of tune himself from thrashing his bass too hard and jumping around, or the other way around. The Nirvana live experience was never a polished affair.

Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Tuesday, 15 January 2019 03:57 (five years ago) link

The way Kurt would fret his power chords would accidentally generate a sus4 sometimes, e.g. the intro to 'Smells Like Teen Spirit'

Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Tuesday, 15 January 2019 03:59 (five years ago) link

oh wait I mixed up where the Bb was

flappy bird, Tuesday, 15 January 2019 04:00 (five years ago) link

If the chord progression starts on E, which is a "sharp" key rather than a "flat" one, and it's all power chords, then I'd write it: E5 G#5 C#5 A5 C5 D5 B5 D5, and in that progression only the C5 really sticks out to me.

Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Tuesday, 15 January 2019 04:08 (five years ago) link

Reviewed it. Guitar is def playing power chords. The vocal melody does put F#s over the D5, B over the G5, and D over the Bb5, making triadic analyses of those (as I, IV, and bVI) reasonable, as well as a Bb over the first C5, which could give it a 7th chord feel. The vocal melody sticks to diatonic major material over the first, diatonic part of the progression, but you get C natural and Bb over the second half ("today I found my friends").

xps (Wasn't going to comment on the sharp key thing but yeah)

Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Tuesday, 15 January 2019 04:13 (five years ago) link

Bb over the first C5, which could give it a 7th chord feel.

(As bVII7 is even more common of a dominant substitution in jazz harmony, this could support voodoo chilli's Tin Pan Alley comparison perhaps?)

Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Tuesday, 15 January 2019 04:15 (five years ago) link

Lol yeah, should be written as A#, but for whatever reason, when I’m playing the piano, my mind always thinks “Bb” when I play that triad. And I always think of the Gb/F# triad as F#.

harvey wall/barrier (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 15 January 2019 04:16 (five years ago) link

No, Bb is the correct notation for bVI in D! Reading Ab and Db in the key of D was hurting my head a little, though.

Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Tuesday, 15 January 2019 04:17 (five years ago) link

Reading Ab and Db in the key of D

*key of E

Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Tuesday, 15 January 2019 04:17 (five years ago) link

Good to know!

harvey wall/barrier (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 15 January 2019 04:19 (five years ago) link

Also I'm listening to Live Through This again, and I'm fairly confident that Kurt had close to fuck all to do with the songwriting on it, contrary to the rumours that were circling for years. The chord progressions don't really display many of his hallmarks, and Courtney's melodic sense is quite distinct from Kurt's. The closest it gets to Nirvana is the riff on 'She Walks on Me' and even then there's something not-quite-Kurt about it.

Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Tuesday, 15 January 2019 04:24 (five years ago) link

those rumors were largely fueled by sexism, there was never any "there" there.

fuck the NRA (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 15 January 2019 04:28 (five years ago) link

Guitar magazine was one of the many shitty publications that, while not endorsing the rumors, gave way too much credence to it as a possibility

fuck the NRA (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 15 January 2019 04:29 (five years ago) link

in that progression only the C5 [Bb5 in the recorded D] really sticks out to me.

I might agree if e.g. he were just singing pentatonic or blues material over all of it but the melody (which started out completely diatonic in D) goes B-C#-D-C natural -Bb-Cnatural-A when the chords go G5-Bb5-C5, which does suggest a change, or at least mixture of mode

Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Tuesday, 15 January 2019 04:30 (five years ago) link

Yeah, I was talking about it more in terms of just looking at that particular series of chords coldly as a sequence off paper/a screen, but yeah, of course any vocal melody is going to add colour, particularly as (like you say) a sung major/minor 3rd over a power chord is going to create a triad. It's the same with the bass, and there's an interesting bass part on 'Lithium' which adds further colour - it's not a "follow the root" bass part.

Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Tuesday, 15 January 2019 04:56 (five years ago) link

Guitar magazine was one of the many shitty publications that, while not endorsing the rumors, gave way too much credence to it as a possibility

― fuck the NRA (Neanderthal), Tuesday, January 15, 2019 4:29 AM (twenty-seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Wait, seriously? In what way? Through musical analysis or just being dicks in general?

Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Tuesday, 15 January 2019 05:00 (five years ago) link

It was in one of the opening sections of the mag, where they just dumped every bit of industry gossip into a two page spread. They talked about the "Live Through This" rumor, I guess there was a claim that a tape had been unearthed of Kurt playing a demo/guide track for one of the songs, and Guitar was running with it like this was the truth, and hypothesizing that a longer recording of him demoing the entire rest of the album might exist as well.

Of course said 'demo' tape never really existed but Guitar was, as I said, a shitty magazine, so....

fuck the NRA (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 15 January 2019 05:08 (five years ago) link

it smacked of 'aww how cute, this pretty young woman thinks she wrote da whole widdle album all by herself" patronizing bullshit

fuck the NRA (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 15 January 2019 05:09 (five years ago) link

Christ. I mean, there is a recording of Kurt singing a backing vocal on a demo of 'Asking For It' alongside Courtney (I've heard it) but that's not the same thing as "Kurt wrote the song and demoed it" ... I would say Kurt's input on the writing of that song was zero - it sounds nothing like a Kurt song.

Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Tuesday, 15 January 2019 05:20 (five years ago) link

yeah, they were framing it like it was a solo demo, which even then wouldn't have proven anything other than "he thought it was a good song and played it"

fuck the NRA (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 15 January 2019 05:26 (five years ago) link

xpost I don't understand all this music jargon but this guy loves deconstructing songs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMUkMGNX0Uk

that's not my post, Tuesday, 15 January 2019 05:39 (five years ago) link

yeah the Live Through This bs doesn't even withstand the timeline, Courtney wrote Doll Parts & some others before they ever hooked up... agree that her melodic sensibility & her and Eric's guitar playing are pretty distinct from Kurt's. the riff & beginning of verse melody in "She Walks On Me" = "Tourettes"

flappy bird, Tuesday, 15 January 2019 06:20 (five years ago) link

It sounded more like Kurt singing along to a track in his kitchen

Mark G, Tuesday, 15 January 2019 07:38 (five years ago) link

I've got mega-cable where I'm living now, so I usually wrap up my Sunday nights with 120 Minutes on MTV Classic. They played an edit of the '92 VMA "Lithium" last night, and just...damn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9cxMsGFgQ8

The whole thing is something that feels like a lot of rules were quickly created so it won't happen again.

a large tuna called “Justice” (C. Grisso/McCain), Tuesday, 29 January 2019 02:08 (five years ago) link

LOL @ how nervous Dana Carvey looks when he reads that Nirvana is the winner

i stan corrected (morrisp), Tuesday, 29 January 2019 02:17 (five years ago) link

Who's playing "Michael Jackson"? I don't remember any of this...

i stan corrected (morrisp), Tuesday, 29 January 2019 02:19 (five years ago) link

IIRC, it was a professional MJ impersonator they hired.

a large tuna called “Justice” (C. Grisso/McCain), Tuesday, 29 January 2019 02:21 (five years ago) link

tab soren, true professional, doesn't even flinch or get weird about it when 1993's Dumbest Man in Rock acts upon his impulse to immediately 'dip' the lady interviewer interviewing him

this is a guy who - on national television! - tossed his electric bass guitar 20 feet in the air only to have it draw blood when connecting with his face on the way back down

and she just laughs and it off and smiles cause she knows her hair was more perfect than his career will ever be, and she was right

good stuff, and fuck you dad for trying to tell me over dinner last week that 1963-1973 was the objectively "greatest" decade in popular music

del griffith, Tuesday, 29 January 2019 02:23 (five years ago) link

remember joseph goebbels

del griffith, Tuesday, 29 January 2019 02:37 (five years ago) link

that performance of Lithium is the peak of the band imo - at least the rock side

flappy bird, Tuesday, 29 January 2019 03:50 (five years ago) link

What does he sing after "I'm so r---"? "I can't take the salads out"??

Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Tuesday, 29 January 2019 06:21 (five years ago) link

Casting a vote for this live clip (never got to see them myself, sadly):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zagAeZ5eH94

Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Tuesday, 29 January 2019 06:26 (five years ago) link

xpost Sund4r: "I can't take a sedative"

alpine static, Tuesday, 29 January 2019 07:54 (five years ago) link

Boyz II Men and Wilson Phillips.

Sam Weller, Tuesday, 29 January 2019 08:42 (five years ago) link

Ah

Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Tuesday, 29 January 2019 15:05 (five years ago) link

god krist is so annoying

my tweet portal is whack (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 29 January 2019 15:32 (five years ago) link

he was the worst in that infamous nardwuar interview too

my tweet portal is whack (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 29 January 2019 15:32 (five years ago) link


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