thraed of DOJA CAT

where are all those R&B poptimists at anyway? new album 'Amala' is all that & bag of chips

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLiGA_wrNp0

or as jordan called it, 'complexcon ariana grande'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRHHOttkM1A

if anything might bring R|t|C back to us surely its this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_D-DWOrefpM

What happened to this stupid website

sorry i just remembered to check this out hi

I feel like i woke up on christmas to news Santa was arrested

Lol thanks brad

i hope lex is going nuts over this on some parallel universe ilx

piano and the swell of backing vocals in "roll with us" are exquisite

i think i love "candy" the most though, wow that is great

oh shit the album is *out*, brb

this is like a maybe more fully realized version of iconika (but less capital-i Interesting)

there are definitely fewer velvet curtains parting at the opening of these songs than on the iconika record

jesus christ there's a "canon in d" sample on "fancy"

She's been pretty popular for awhile now, right (at least in L.A., but her videos have millions of views)? And she produces her own stuff? I remember liking her older stuff with hazier beats much better, but sure, good for her.

this is kind of a weird soup of a bunch of different sounds and trends, kiiara trash electro w a sza R&B patina-pop channeled through industry songwriter school that really all sounds like "Motivation" imo

i am really loving this record huh

also i'm having a hard time describing it to other people but that kinda nails it deej

Loving this. 'Game' stood out to me the most on first listen.

lol "down low"'s production is so restless

down low is maxed out. the bass is pretty punishing throughout this whole alb.

this is kind of a weird soup of a bunch of different sounds and trends, kiiara trash electro w a sza R&B patina-pop channeled through industry songwriter school that really all sounds like "Motivation" imo

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), mardi 3 avril 2018 12:30 (fifty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

only listened to a few songs so far, but Anti seems like a big influence...or at least "go to town" sounds to me like someone heard "consideration" and didn't realize it was two different singers. excited to check out the one with Konshens

yeah rihanna was the first thing i thought when i fired this up but didnt want to say it lol

ha for sure it's probably more notable for someone in this lane to not be influenced by Rihanna

Yes anti is such a part of the dna now (tho of course that is a pastiche itself cf “needed me” being even better than the real thing Kehlani)

... such a part of the dna now I don’t even notice it, it’s like the air we breathe

(And Kehlani is of course post Rihanna af)

the songwriting on this is self-evidently very strong but on my first listen i thought the production was a little too generic in a way that is in line w/ how it's being described here but viewed less positively. some of this stuff reminded me of like... rita ora's early singles.

Pretty sure it's self-produced...from what I remember, her beats used to be more of a focal point than the songs, maybe it's flipped on this?

theres a generic-ness sure

i like that about it though, kinda what i mean by trash electro

Well this is a lot of fun

i find myself wishing this was more lush in places... there's something thin and plastic about like "wild beach" or "morning light" or "game" that doesn't quite sell the songs the way they deserve imo (this is a personal prejudice tho)

the first 3 songs are really strong tho

Whole album is strong!

Rita ora comparison offtm

feeling her pg-13 raps, flow on them is kinda nicki but without the OTT nasty punchlines

jeremih vibes on 'roll with us'

wish the whole thing had more rapping, first 2 tracks kinda stand out for that. really solid songwriting throughout tho

fav songs are:

Casual
Roll With Us
Candy
Wine Pon You
All Nighter
Go To Town

i wouldnt be mad at all if Go To Town ended up as song of the summer

oh wow this is amazing.
sometimes her rapping style remembers me dej loaf? not sure.

bitch i'm a cow https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXnJqYwebF8

this fucking rules

lmao that owns

my actual late breaking song of the summer

awesome

instant goon canon

get out of my hay

this is the rightful heir to "lemme smang it" we've always deserved

lol yup

got me listening to the album again too. Roll With Us is my new fav.

not sure this is comparable to lemme smang it feels like apples and oranges to me

Me https://t.co/kOSCAHl7bY

— WATCH "MOOO!" ON YT (@DojaCat) August 13, 2018

"mooo" is not parody but there's a mix of ridiculousness and songcraft as well as a toying w/ rap's slang and conventions in a way that signals a deep immersion and appreciation that reminds me a lot of why i loved "lemme smang it" so much

More art should be hilarious is what I’m always saying and this really delivers without being like “a joke” which must be really hard to do because rarely does anyone achieve that.

I'm not amoooosed

Xpost to silby - Zappa ruined it for us all but I appreciate your pov

Mooooo

lol this is a straight-up beautiful song. gotta check out the album again.

v smitten with this album, v bright & solid, the most fun of any of the post-rihannaish stuff I've heard. go to town has a breezy lilt to it that reminds me of shawty is da shit, obv mooo! is delightful

always fun when someone u don't get, but everyone else seems to get, gets cancelled

why would you ever say that

pure cheek tbh, this is obv upsetting and i don't rly mean to crow

Her twitter works fine for me? Anyway it's nagl all around

informal sense of 'cancelled'

What happened?

https://bossip.com/1664557/grand-opening-grand-closing-doja-cats-homophobic-tweet-gets-her-dragged-and-put-out-to-pasture/

let's make sure and not overlook the fact that she got called out on Twitter by Debra Messing, of all random people.

without being an apologist for whatever she's done, Go To Town and the album pretty much rules.

does anyone seriously think doja cat has issues with homosexuals

that's not really the issue is it?

when ur ws becomes ur ws of shame

I have no opinion on this but lmao @ this overshadowing Nicki Minaj's blockbuster album, it rules

everything about her music and aesthetic is repellent to me so the shame twist is 100% not a surprise

"I’ve used horrible derogatory and hateful words towards people out of ignorance. I just want you guys to know that you’re incredibly special and I hold you dearly to my heart. I’m sorry for anyone I’ve offended or hurt deeply. You all are worth love and support,” she wrote in one now-deleted Notes app apology on Tuesday night (Aug. 28).

seriously what is this shit, she called tyler the creator and earl sweatshirt faggots in 2015 and that somehow justifies "cancelling" her (such a stupid term) or that vile kind of backlash only the internet can deliver?

Obviously, what she said is indefensible and her apology was tone-deaf, a fact that was quickly pointed out on social media.

chrissakes I know a lot of good people who use bad words

everything about her music and aesthetic is repellent to me so the shame twist is 100% not a surprise

― imago, Thursday, August 30, 2018 11:08 AM (fifteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

again, why would you say this

anyway i mostly just wanted an apology so thanks for that niels

admittedly this is based entirely off 'moo' but idk I'm hardly gonna give her another chance now am I, right

It's just weird that she seems *extremely online* and yet apparently handled this so poorly

it's not weird, ppl get defensive online

admittedly this is based entirely off 'moo' but idk I'm hardly gonna give her another chance now am I, right

― imago, Thursday, August 30, 2018 11:27 AM (thirty-three seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

"everything about her music [read: one song i listened to] and aesthetic [read: one video i watched] is repellent to me so i'm totally unsurprised she said homophobic shit bc i don't like her music [song]" is like... repellent to me as a sentiment, sorry dude

"i was so right to dislike this person's music"

yeah imago you seem to be implying that your quickfire aesthetic judgements are somehow morally/politically insightful

that's all fair and I should stay out of this, sorry

yeah imago you seem to be implying that your quickfire aesthetic judgements are somehow morally/politically insightful

― rob, Thursday, August 30, 2018 2:32 PM (fifteen minutes ago) Bookmark

and how out of character, too

just as a reminder, imago hating something means its probably good

standard

moo is fun enough if a little thin. album owns tho

the new cleaned up version of “mooo” is really nice

missus just said Cookie Jar was playing in the background in Ian Beale's Cafe in Eastenders, that is what you call The Big Time!

this is the rightful heir to "lemme smang it" we've always deserved

hold on if you're gonna do that you gotta at least mention "Naughty Farmer"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYfGx1b58Qo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9DG40_9ZiE

https://soundcloud.com/amalaofficial/u-w-u

this sounds like hearing a kehlani single from an adjacent room

This is endearing though

https://youtu.be/gcT252UiZ-k

oh my post was a compliment lol... i love the song

the horse goes moooo pic.twitter.com/mEk4o01ysY

— nope (@LilNasX) May 26, 2019

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r52KqG4G678

i totally missed this song that got added onto the re-release of amala w/ tia tamera & mooo ... she's such a good writer

if you can see it from the front
wait till you see it from the back back back back back

broke a fingernail and then some
trying to squeeze into my true religion denim
celibate i don't wanna sell you light
i don't buy it, where the cellulite?
he said the body unbelievable
can't trust a big butt and a gemini-i-i-i

he like it plump, he need that
need the rump and need the thighs, he eat that
eat that up, and the night he see that

in the night* -_-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDr9hRJqPX4

this song is brilliant & the album is really good

video is sort of a manifestation of the PBF comic where the lady baker makes the hunky gingerbread man

I find her schtick & songs repellant. Truly dislike this artist

someone's in a bad MOOd

lol

(it’s true, I am)

she's a str8 up genius, awesome rapper and songwriter w/ a unique POV

she's a total lolrandom basic who is bad at music and worse at cultural positioning

so you've only heard "moo"

j0rd otm

dr. luke involvement unfortunate but then i listen to kim petras

no just saw the new video. why do any of us need this cutesy soft-trap sexy sex ringtone nonsense

prepared to go full heel over this, repellent is precisely the word

oh and an abuser is involved making it? figures

i guess i should be thankful she isn't on any year-end lists

why do any of us need this cutesy soft-trap sexy sex ringtone nonsense

― imago, Thursday, November 7, 2019 12:52 PM (five minutes ago)

plz leave the gays alone and go listen to something else lol

"cyber sex" is indeed great

imago just one of the most consistent "negative indicators" in all ilx history

shes bad at 'cultural positioning'?? what kind of american psycho shit is that

Lol

I am really going to have to resist the temptation to make comments along the lines of "but how about the cultural positioning?" in other threads.

as a person who used to use the phrase "cultural positioning" a lot (to describe affective critical stances OR PROBABLY MORE ACCURATELY what I personally would describe as affective critical stances) I still don't know what being good or bad at it would entail

i have no idea what the substance of peoples objections in here is beyond "it's terrible she's working with dr luke" which fair

she said "faggot" on twitter one time

admittedly this is based entirely off 'moo' but idk I'm hardly gonna give her another chance now am I, right

― imago, Thursday, August 30, 2018 11:27 AM (one year ago) bookmarkflaglink

you gave her another chance, imago!

man this new record is hella horny, probably wind up as one of my favorites for this year

lol i mean because it's a good record, not just because it's a horny record

lmao blink-182 co-wrote "bottom bitch"

it's a "what's my age" again sample!

it's slowed down so much i couldn't tell

the new album is wild, loving it so far.

plz leave the gays alone and go listen to something else lol

― J0rdan S., Thursday, November 7, 2019 12:58 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

this could use a song or two like "cyber sex" and "more bite" in the back half... it starts to drag a bit. "better than me" is really dope tho. the way she goes from singing to rapping in some of these songs is amazing. "so sick" is like kyline minogue ft nicki minaj done by one person

Omg just heard her for the first time. Love "Juicy"

everything about "bottom bitch" is wonderful

this is soooo good

why do any of us need this cutesy soft-trap sexy sex ringtone nonsense

― imago, Thursday, November 7, 2019 12:52 PM (three days ago) bookmarkflaglink

prepared to go full heel over this, repellent is precisely the word

― imago, Thursday, November 7, 2019 12:52 PM (three days ago) bookmarkflaglink

oh and an abuser is involved making it? figures

― imago, Thursday, November 7, 2019 12:53 PM (three days ago) bookmarkflaglink

just me or i could see the lickspittle on my screen as i read these?

if deej consents we can threadban lj right?

The three-track run of rules, bottom bitch and say so is *chef's kiss*

"rules" is really great

A few of these songs are pretty good. Her aesthetic tho :(

…what about her aesthetic, are you old or something

Ok boomer!

That's on point; she's the embodiment of a Twitter meme.

which one?

That's on point; she's the embodiment of a Twitter meme.

― quinn morgendorffer stan account (morrisp), Tuesday, November 12, 2019 12:50 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

What does this even mean as a criticism? I can’t believe this is the place where poptimism ruled, meme just means thing that is popular

I'm joking, mostly. Tho I don't get "pop" in the context of this artist; every pop and R&B artist around seems better to me. If she's meant to be more of a rapper, then maybe I'm making a category error.

owns

I taught a class today and built a test account named "Doja Cat".

Hip class but only two ppl knew who she was :(

explain what you like about the aesthetic

i said the songs were fine lol

This is so weird. I kept seeing this thread. Didn’t realize DC is the artist my 12 yo is obsessing over.

your child has good taste

I know. Not my doing.

"juicy" is a remarkably stupid song. currently undecided as to whether i actually like it.

only other song i heard by her is "moo" which i didn't find charming but perhaps i'll dig deeper sometime

omg that and four other songs on her album are cowritten by dr. luke

i guess that didn't stop me from liking that kim petras song

for being a song w/ tyga about asses i find "juicy" to be (like much of her music) very witty

it is! a number of lines are quite clever, certainly not dimwitted in the slightest. i guess "stupid" isn't quite the right word... more silly, i guess?

it's also been in my head all day so safe to say i like it now

she's very viral on tiktok now, i think a lizzo-esque blowup is imminent

which host do u think she’ll be paired with on SNL?

she's very viral on tiktok now, i think a lizzo-esque blowup is imminent

― dyl, Monday, January 6, 2020 4:18 PM (four hours ago)

it's really weird and random too... at least "good as hell" and "truth hurts" are like big pop songs. the doja stuff that is blowing up seems really random, i don't really understand it at all. but good for her.

"say so" is pretty good i should note, but i like the similar song w/ gucci mane from the album much better

the guy who used to record as Saint Pepsi thinks he was ripped off

dr luke ripped off my biggest song for doja cat's biggest song and did it to the exact point where it would hold up in court

— Skylar Spence (@skylar__spence) February 26, 2020

I mean...yeah

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bw_7UrqzNUg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er9xGRolrT4

like Doja Cat's is very clearly a sample of Good Time so does St Pepsi believe Chic retroactively ripped him off too?

idk if "say so" is a sample of "good times" as much as it's just a very similar-sounding record. i'd say the same for "fiona coyne." imo dr. luke just is a very unimaginitive producer, he's done this reheated disco/french house thing several times now (cf. kim petras "sweet spot")

I pointed out the Good Time connection on my burner Twitter account and uhhh St Pepsi is angry at me lol.

def don't wanna be Capn' Save a Luke but I don't think Pepsi would win in court.

i think he knows that

I thought by 'hold up in court' he meant a legal copyright challenge to Luke would hold up in court

it's confusingly worded but i think he meant the opposite

no I think it means the opposite, it's juuuust different enough that he wouldn't have a case. tbh I think it's possible that this is a coincidence but "Fiona Coyne" is a relatively well-known tune & knowing how these songwriters work it's definitely plausible he heard it and ripped it off

I remember an article a few years ago where Google did this, they offered an artist some token amount (like, less than a grand) to use one of his songs in a commercial, he told them to piss off, and then the ad folks at Google just re-wrote the song themselves but changed enough so they couldn't be sued. And he went into exactly what that entailed.

It's funny to hear stories from the other side of that, like from friends who do spec work making beats & music for ads. Like this one client had an Anderson Paak beat as a reference, and said "but give it your own spin", of course. A few revisions later, it turns out what they meant was "literally replay this beat, with the same rhythms and details, without the license fee".

this is going to be the first really big hit for dr luke after the kesha lawsuit, right? i wonder how doja cat is intending to answer questions about him in interviews as i'm sure that'll happen if the song keeps climbing the charts (and everything atm indicates it will)

imo "say so" and "fiona coyne" are closer than either is to "good times" and they're just different enough for there to be plausible deniability. i can understand why skylar spence is annoyed but apart from the riff there's nothing similar going on and it's the sort of generic disco riff that i could easily believe dr. luke came up with it either on his own or after listening to "fiona coyne" or "good times" and trying to deliberately come up with a plausibly deniable rip.

this is going to be the first really big hit for dr luke after the kesha lawsuit, right? i wonder how doja cat is intending to answer questions about him in interviews as i'm sure that'll happen if the song keeps climbing the charts (and everything atm indicates it will)

― monotony, Monday, March 2, 2020 2:09 AM (thirty-two minutes ago)

i can tell you from personal experience that they have a very strict "no dr. luke questions during this interview" policy, but it's more easily enforced when the stakes are lower (fashion magazines and such). if bigger/more powerful media places start taking an interest in her it will be harder to maintain. i think part of her hesitance comes from a legitimate place, in that she signed w/ kemosabe when she was a teenager and can't do anything to untangle herself from luke in terms of business, so on that front there isn't much to discuss. but the extent to which she is working with him creatively is a different question and one she'll prob eventually have to answer. i do wonder to what extent their creative relationship is also contractual but that's something we'll prob never know.

i'd be a little surprised if their creative relationship was contractual since he wasn't involved at all in amala, and i thought luke wasn't supposed to be involved at kemosabe as of 2017? or did sony just remove him as ceo of kemosabe and insist he lays low for a bit, with him now being still involved there more than just as a producer for hire?

opened doja cats live to her reciting roddy ricch the box lyrics like she's reciting hamlet in fucking chainmail armour I- pic.twitter.com/j0Fpejeuw8

— yaz💛 (@flowerhunni) April 9, 2020

What a week we're all having!

What’s the story? I saw she was trending, but couldn’t figure out why.

I saw something that said she's a white supremacists l or something hut isn't she half Black?

I remember when people were cancelled for obvious reasons.

https://www.ccn.com/doja-cat-joe-biden-canceled-on-same-day-maybe-they-should-run-together/

Also imago did you come here to dunk on people for liking her music

So she's being cancelled for third party's vague recollections of things she supposedly did in a chat room and no screenshot or anything approximating evidence?

Yeah, sounds about right for Twitter.

It's 2020, yo.

I thought she was already #problematic for working with Dr Luke and #cancelled for her teenage homophobic slurs

Yeah, and something else last week.

Wouldn't be surprised if it's an incel campaign

Or a Lana Del Rey stan campaign. Possibly both.

Online is so fucking tiring sometimes.

Wait let me get this straight Imago. So when a comedian you like gets called out for some antisemitic bantz in a national newspaper it's crybullying that must be faced down at all costs, but when a black artist was supposedly laughing along in a white supremacist chat room, despite there being no actual record of this, it's an occasion to rub your hands together with glee? I mean at least be consistent.

i didn't pass judgement! threadbump at least as much about the phenomenon as the crime (if there even was one). didn't you see how i said the KAS 'cancellation' was nonsense? the LDR drama was some crass, crass self-promotion bs - this one isn't artist-driven

stewart lee thing wasn't intentionally (or possibly even accidentally) antisemitic though obviously and it's not a great comparison

online drama wrought by toxic fan culture has in the last 2 days killed a star of a reality tv show (and wrestling) that i watch, and ended the career of one of my favourite bands (black dresses) - i am not here to likewise stick the knife into DC (although i'm obviously no fan)

maybe wasn't worth bumping this thread, but i thought we had a collective duty to stay on top of the Discourse or something idk

also it is disingenuous for you to equate the extremely bad-faith crybullying (yes) of the fucking hard-right pundit circle - people who claim that jeremy corbyn is a racist - with stan drama lol

i should have known better than to click a doja cat thread thinking it would be a suitable alternative to the hillary clinton thread

but seriously

joe biden just got "cancelled" _this fucking week_?

christ. look i'm off to play match three games all fucking weekend.

Partly my fault for linking to that trash website but at least it does justice to the spirit of Twitter quite well.

if we capture the spirit of twitter can we banish it to the land of wind and ghosts?

Gladly!

shame about black dresses

what happened with black dresses?

I did try to search for it but all I got was a lot of posts about cancelled orders from clothes shops

same question ^ i couldn't figure it out either

This thread is more of an explanation than anything else I can find. Which is, not much of one.

Black Dresses breaking up bc they asked tiktok cosplayers to stop doing cutesy edgy lipsync to a song about child sexual assault and got harassed for it, i truly will be burying myself alive

— esther miri rose (@EstherOnFilm) May 23, 2020

FWIW I’ve heard the “Doja doesnt like black guys” rumors a few times before this

it's funny when you stop and think about the total 180 the world did on tyler the creator once he started making aesthetically pleasant music and hanging out w/ solange, & then consider the idea that an artist like doja cat could/should be cancelled over whatever her teenage trolling was

otm

hope black dresses comes back ;_;

I clicked to read more of that thread but occurs to me actually I don't want to know more about that. Fandom: not even once.

I hate the cow song but if someone’s being unfairly cancelled I’m here to defend her, just what I do

Going to look up what happened though. If she did something egregious she’s on her own

Ok this one is actually extremely depressing..... seems she has some self loathing issues that led her to seek out the company of racists and do compromising things on video chats with them.

And the song from 2015?

Yeah, it’s a racist song that picks up on an alt right term. Apparently she was conversant in this type of culture. So that is pretty strong evidence that at least a version of this narrative is true—it’s not all third-hand accounts and blurry screenshots.

Good work, gumshoes

https://www.papermag.com/doja-cat-break-the-internet-interview-2641564531.html she talks about that a little in this interview from last year and it's clearly what people have dug up

she was 19 or 20 in 2015 so while that's old enough for her to really have known better it's pretty easy to forgive her for being real self-loathing about being mixed race

She still frequents the chat room to this day?

The article doesn’t mention the song...

oh i missed that detail that's really bleak if she's still hanging out with those types

that article is from last year before people actually dug up all this stuff this week including the racist song

the stuff has been out there and not really hidden at all for a while it’s just that not enough ppl cared about her until now. that song’s lyrics have been on genius for ages

don't let children get raised by the internet

i didnt realize she was still doing this stuff. thought it was like, i was 14 and too online type thing.

this is p sad

I try not to be political... I'm more like, 'I don't give a fuck,'" Doja pushes back, before reminding me that an artist's intention is just as important as external interpretation. "I never think about what I write. I just write whatever the first thing that comes to my mind is."

ppl who "aren't political" almost always have shitty political beliefs

this is another classic dodge (sub "ism" sometimes)

A beat passes before Doja shrugs. "Like, I just love romance and sex," she says. "It's not a very '-ist' album, because there's nothing '-ist' about what I do."

Her self-hatred runs deep. I'm finding this more depressing than anger-inducing.

yeah perhaps the more apposite tyler comparison is how self-loathing from a complicated identity in a fucked society can sadly have toxic things that come out of it? not sure that insulates anyone from criticism though

willing to bet the vast majority of "problematic" entertainers hate themselves at least a little

There is something vaguely masochistic about exposing oneself so thoroughly to the outside world, especially when you risk becoming a dehumanized object of worship. Incidentally, I empathize with Black Dresses for backing out before it’s too late (although perhaps ‘before’ is a bit of misnomer here).

I mean, they're not dead. They can unbreak up whenever they feel like it.

yeah perhaps the more apposite tyler comparison is how self-loathing from a complicated identity in a fucked society can sadly have toxic things that come out of it? not sure that insulates anyone from criticism though

― Vapor waif (uptown churl), Sunday, May 24, 2020 3:50 PM (three hours ago)

yeah. btw i don't think she should be insulated from criticism, all criticism of her is warranted. i'm just talking about the idea of her career being over. it's interesting how these things play out -- outside of kpop/BTS, male artists don't really have to deal w/ stan army wars and the sort of attendant social media (and then media) attention/scrutiny that comes out of that culture? don't think doja has a stan army but as a woman in pop she is squarely in the arena where fan bases/social media armies mine any/everything you've ever said/done for #[artist]isover parties. the only one i can think of is shawn mendes and the way his affectations have been pored over and memed ad nauseam in relation to speculation over his sexuality. but like, there's a weeknd song that is basically a celebration of gang rape. i have no idea if it's "better or worse" than doja's offensive song but the amount of scrutiny between those two (just as an example) is not comparable. now doja has the real world element of hanging out in these discord chats or whatever, but one of the central figures in the ovo/xo circle was a human trafficker. maybe both should be cancelled idk but it just feels like what is happening to her rn is not a standard applied to many/any male artists. certainly no rappers to speak of. video surfaced of post malone saying the n-word on camera and the world didn't even stop for a second. it's just not consistent.

or think about drake's blackface photo. doja's crimes as it were appear more extensive than drake's but because one came out in the context of a rap beef it's not treated as a piece of offensive material that reflects poorly on the subject -- if anything, it reflected most poorly on the person who revealed it. if doja was in a rap beef & her opponent leaked her offensive song would the world not consider it when weighing her potential cancellation? the standards applied to this stuff are pretty ad hoc

Well, Tyler (mentioned earlier) faced significant mainstream pushback/consequences for his lyrics (UK travel ban, etc.). I understand you’re interested in the specific social media dynamic and why certain artists are targeted — but DC’s career doesn’t seem anywhere on its way to being “over” in an actual sense, this is barely even getting mainstream music press. It was trending on Twitter over the weekend for whatever reason, and a few lines addressing it have been added to her Wikipedia page. I guess we’ll see if that escalates or fades.

i feel a lil weird minimizing her actively hanging w white supremacists tho, thats kind of a beyond the pale sort of situation

the-dream is a multiple time physical abuser, just wrote beyonce's verse for megan the stallion remix. nelly is a multiple time alleged rapist, was just given one of the biggest platforms in music to celebrate his legacy. this stuff pops up on twitter now and again so i'm not saying nobody is talking about it... and doja will probably be fine and have a nice career after this. she doesn't have to go but to her own studio sessions to see a prime example of how forgiving the music industry can be. but i'm willing to bet this will follow her in a way those accusations don't follow those other ppl; and yes hanging out in a 4chan chat is bad, but go read christina milian's interview about what it was like to be married to the-dream. maybe he's on your personal cancel list too i have no idea, but that's not rly my point either.

doja should do a lot of soul searching and come out w/ some better thoughts on the matter than what she posted on instagram, i just look around at what a whole lot of other artists (men) are allowed to get away with (not saying i'm not complicit, i don't boycott the-dream) and find phrases like "beyond the pale" a little ridiculous. roddy ricch was arrested for hitting his gf and there was no grand reckoning w/ his past when he hit number 1 like three months ago. is roddy ricch beyond the pale? again doja can answer for her actions but the way this stuff plays out is just not equal.

Her self-hatred runs deep. I'm finding this more depressing than anger-inducing.

― pomenitul, Sunday, May 24, 2020 1:02 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

Yeah this seems to have been primarily a self-destructive, compulsive pattern of behavior, or at least it’s been characterized that way. I think that is why she is coming under scorn; it makes people profoundly uncomfortable, the idea of someone seeking out degredation. It’s harder to categorize than other kinds of “bad” behavior that are aimed at hurting others.

I've been a wee bit concerned at the number of people in the Twittersphere saying she's "not really black" because she's mixed and can pass for white.

I mean, that’s horrifying, but the reason they’re doing that is they want to make an uncomfortable scenario fit a familiar schema. If she is not black, she can just be a racist, and cancelled. If she is, then you have to start thinking about what actually motivated the benavior, and it’s some bleak psychological territory.

I really feel like “cancelling” is secondary here. I hope this woman finds peace with herself and this is what I hope for everyone.

Anger toward her is understandable, though, obviously. I’m sure many feel betrayed by this kind of thing. Idk. It’s a minefield.

otm

yes

so let's go talk about other stuff now

The Tyler comparison is pretty interesting. Her transgression is primarily formed through the prism of extremely online activity and the loneliness and vulnerability that leads people to such spaces. (Spaces which tragically, can only ever serve to augment loneliness and vulnerability.)

Tyler was never isolated in that way. There of course was vulnerability but the whole odd future thing not only insulated him from pressure to personally inhabit an image (being male also helps with that), but also made it so he never felt compelled to deny the existence of a trauma/argument that he was already in the middle of. Everything he did or said was in the context of his "tribe".

Fair or foul, she and she alone has to own what she put out there. But missing from the broader cultural narrative of diabolical hackers, crass memes and vulgar trolls is how the majority that inhabit chan spaces and are probably lost in the same way that she was. Trying to be a part of something that purports to accept them without forcing them to reckon with their insecurities. Something that allows them to feel "among" and seen without having to countenance the extremely shitty tools and frameworks we expect people to use to figure out who they are.

As for the Dindu song? It doesn't say much of anything. She borrows a fraught signifier but lacked the conviction, will or wit to do anything subversive with it. But again that's consistent with her instinctively noncommittal parsing of identity.

lots of good points from jordan above, but to d40s point ... i just feel like the contemporary online alt right isn't just a race thing, those dudes are all in on various forms of domination and oppression including misogyny, and seem to have a disturbing cultural cache with musicians these days (see ariel pink and john maus making music for the sympathetic incel documentary just now, danny l harle on million dollar extreme, etc). feels like part of a new front on the US culture war and so while im not saying that makes the litany of gendered violence receipts provided by jordan above any less bad, i guess i am maybe speculating as to why the doja thing might seem worse/different than just "trolling' to some. and in terms of other similarities to various things rotting our minds these days it also seems connected to the trump/kanye thing

the-dream is a multiple time physical abuser, just wrote beyonce's verse for megan the stallion remix. nelly is a multiple time alleged rapist, was just given one of the biggest platforms in music to celebrate his legacy. this stuff pops up on twitter now and again so i'm not saying nobody is talking about it.

But I can say that as a casual music consumer and not somebody who follows music Twitter neither of these facts are things I knew at all.

sure of course. and there's plenty of logical explanations for that beyond the dynamic i'm describing. but it's also illustrative of my point. one of the inherent flaws of the post-me too discourse is that it requires the building of a vast mental dossier of problematic incidents, and it's unrealistic to expect many people -- even those generally interested in discussing the arts -- to keep up. stans can flourish in this environment because when it comes to the news story that is "doja cat responds to being cancelled" the reporting (what doja cat did) is already out there (via the stans, who created the news story in the first place)

the big thing that frustrated me about this particular incident is that I saw people all over Twitter legitimately asking what Doja did and for details, only to get brush-off responses, like it was this insider knowledge, and you were an asshole if you didn't already know it. It actually took me a while to figure out what the hubbub was about as few people were actually sharing anything helpful about it, or were just sharing the conclusions without sharing any specific details as to what happened.

Most people don't even know what happened, they're just playing Twitter telephone. The same issue arose with regard to Black Dresses and Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith.

A thing occurred and you must now adopt my take on this scandalous thing except I'm not going to tell you what it is because I myself have no idea.

yeah I get sick of the "I'm not going to spoonfeed you, do your own research" responses

Twitter telephone is also famous for fucking up news. the day Kobe died, hundreds of tweeters were claiming (with zero corroboration) that he was the pilot of the helicopter and aggressively arguing with people who suggested there was a separate pilot and Kobe was a passenger, and then they went eerily quiet the moment the news confirmed the latter was true.

Highest paid crisis actor in NBA history iirc.

The thing that’s going to hurt Doja Cat’s longevity isn’t an unearthed 4chan past; it’s not being particularly interesting.

Like, flirting with edgelords 5 years ago is the first thing I’ve seen about her that makes me remember who she is.

the Tolentino thing seems like a pretty strong case of "twitter telephone"

xp her breakout hit was "mooo!" that's something at least

she's apologizing for all of this on instagram live in a shirt that says HENTAI in flames

Where do I get that shirt

i wasn't arguing to 'cancel her' jordan lmao im just saying that i think handwaving flirting w white supremacists online is .. not good

esp since as shes showing in this recent video its not like shes been humbled by any of this, im sure shes just seeing it as another in a line of 'all publicity is good publicity' things & im sure she like tons of ppl on 4chan just see it all as a big joke except when they mean it, so its like ... you literally cant 'shame' that out of someone bc they detach from the consequences of their actions (& per tsrobodo probably dont see their actions as ever having much meaningful agency or effect on the world) (the great irony now being that they're represented by a literal no. 1 pop star)

im not really mad at doja for this or something, more just unsettled by the way this space operates as a like source of fuckd up brainwashing

Based on what I've read, this all seems like pretty fucked up stuff, so i would not seek to take issue with anyone who decided "this artist is no longer for me under any circumstances", but... It does feel to me that at least one fundamental difference between this scandal and the examples j0rds provides above with respect to male artists is not just white supremacy but also... misogyny and domestic violence rarely-if-ever code to the general public as "fake" behaviour (even when/though they are recognised as awful)*, whereas in the particular context of the kind of music doja cat makes, her behaviour is not just merely gross / sad but also can easily be framed as a sign that she is fundamentally a fraud.

Maybe I'm over-keen to make this align with my existing sense that in the current era the historical popular emphasis on judging musical artists by notions of real/fake has just shifted from structural factors to personal politics (e.g. the label you're on is less important than the contents of your twitter feed), but it feels very consistent. Which of course extends well beyond just the way "we" think about music.

I suspect this also plays into doja cat's apparent air of comfort with the blowback: there's almost a hillary clinton-esque "well if i'm gonna be judged regardless I may as well go ahead and get paid to speak to SocGen" air to her insouciance.

*Insert long side-discussion about Chris Brown as the liminal case here.

the Tolentino thing seems like a pretty strong case of "twitter telephone"

― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Monday, May 25, 2020 10:34 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

not really? "human trafficker" might have been an inflammatory phrase, but tolentino's parents took real advantage of desperate filippino immigrants, coaxing them to america with promises of jobs that didn't always materialize and saddling them with more fees than it was possible to pay.

I was referring to her NY media blue check peers and twitter stans reflexively coming to her defense actually

ah.

i mean, i feel that the way it was brought up originally was gross too, as some kind of "gotcha." i don't envy jia tolentino's position. that said, she was dismissive and evasive about the testimony of these immigrants and tried to make it seem like the whole case was fabricated by ICE.

Imagine if twitter existed during 9/11.

...

No, no, stop, don't jump.

i don't envy jia tolentino's position. that said, she was dismissive and evasive about the testimony of these immigrants and tried to make it seem like the whole case was fabricated by ICE.

but also she really did not have to say anything at all. was anyone even talking about it before the post

(sorry for continued derail)

Saying nothing would probably be the smart course of action in 99% of these cars y

Er..cases

it was cool to see identity politics be weaponized to defend human trafficking, I must say. there are literally no depths that cannot be plumbed in this new, exciting age

xp people were talking about it, simon. someone on reddit uncovered the original news coverage of the case and it was making the rounds on twitter.

I really like that “Say So” song.

I've never found myself listening to "Say So" and thinking, "this is really nice but I wish the backing track sounded more like Evanescence's 2002 alt-rock hit 'Bring Me to Life'," but this is...something:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGBeV-Hlqaw

2020 popstars revealing their ✨HIDDEN UNTAPPED ROCK CRED✨ (this, Post Malone's Nirvana tribute, https://www.nme.com/news/music/kidding-billie-eilish-reacts-dave-grohl-comparing-nirvana-2459635) could probably be its own thread

"say so" sequel is out

Really disappointing taste in restaurants

https://postmates.com/blog/the-receipt-doja-cats-order-history

i thought maybe the bump would be abt the new album. guess not

i'm having a hard time getting into it all that much. her talent is evident but the production is homogenized in a way that leaves me a bit cold, idk. i like the song w/ ariana grande, it has some cool harmonies, a few of the ones on the back end i fuck with too. it's one of those albums that makes me appreciate the single more, i've been playing "kiss me more" a lot. also liked some of the deluxe songs, the one w/ eve is really fun. hot pink was an imperfect album but it felt more distinct to me than this, like she had leveled up the production while still retaining her identity. this one is bringing her further from that i think but i'm gonna give it a few more chances

kiss me more is a great song, isn't it?

i think so

"kiss me more" is great. the video kind of weirded me out at first.

I really hate everything she’s done and can’t disassociate the ironic racism from her current incatnation

hmm yeah i sort of forgot about that, it is pretty repulsive

Sounds like she’s having a rough week: https://www.eonline.com/news/1324617/why-doja-cat-says-shes-quitting-music

:'(

it is in many ways a shitty biz

Get Into It (Yuh) is really good

the attitude of those fans reminded me of the Mitski blow up when she asked people not to record entire shows on their phones a few weeks ago; massive entitlement from young fans. honestly when I look at any (usually female) musician's twitter or fb followers I fucking cringe with the 'bestie' shit and the deranged amount of importance fans put on their parasocial relationships. I'd fucking quit too.

yeah music fans have always had disordered relationships with artists to some degree but the way in which such emotions can be directly expressed to the artists — who in turn feel compelled to “engage” with their fans — nowadays is clearly unhealthy

Needs to hop back on 4Chan chat for a pick me up

lol milo

is her new album going to be good or will it just make her current badmouthing of her last albums seem embarrassing?

Well she is right that the last two weren’t as good as “Amala”

one thing I can say for Doja Cat is she fucking hates her fans, and I don't blame her

the disgust i'm seeing from some online at her recent statements is so intense, but i don't think anything she's said is that outrageous. like, sure, it's imprudent and disrespectful to say those things openly, but she's definitely far from the only artist who feels that way

Her online fan base is as toxic and dumb as most

I sort of side with her on this, but also feel like, notwithstanding that stan culture is a ubiquitous evil, her music and persona sort of created these particular stans, to an extent

idk what to say this is what always happens when a famous person pals around with racist shitheads

oh my post was about this which has nothing to do with racist shitheads: https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/24/entertainment/doja-cat-nickname-boyfriend-music/index.html

(despite the URL saying 'boyfriend' there is nothing in that article about her boyfriend)

I ran across some twitter nonsense about her boyfriend though the other day, which, despite dozens of people calling him a 'manipulator' and 'gaslighter' no one was able to offer any actual details about what that meant other than that he's a twitch streamer who got people to do shit for him for free which...maybe people shouldn't get so invested in twitch streamers that they are doing shit for free?

great vintage doja cat verse

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI2XVGDEMEk

You bitches suck, give 'em an udder
Doors open, vertically, car flutter
Mars native, Margiela, muh-fucka
Mark my words, hit a billion like I'm Mark Zucker
Big news, Takanawa, Tom Tucker
Sugar Mama, turn you to a thumb sucker
Nine zeroes, still a really big number
These bitches wouldn't get jack, get lumber
More water, needs milk, needs sugar
More cocoa, half cup, pure vanilla
Out the oven, mittens on, need a chiller
Big cake, I could feed it to a bride-zilla

https://www.sportskeeda.com/pop-culture/news-what-j-cyrus-do-disturbing-allegations-racist-tweets-surface-wake-doja-cat-link

new album is pretty good

Crosspost with the "Photos of famous people you didn't expect" thread

TIL that Doja Cat is the girl in the pink dress, hanging with Alice Coltrane. pic.twitter.com/oLnH3KWSwb

— Dave Segal (@editaurus) September 21, 2023

I know she is alt right or something, but “paint the town red” is one of the most fun singles in years

Makes me want to be a bad little bitch too, a rebel

I dont really like the new stuff tbh
sounds like early 00s backpack rap this place used to make fun of w/ some justifiable disdain, just w better 'melodic math' dr luke voice

Feel like she has headed steadily downhill in quality and uphill in success since Amala

i have soured on it a bit. the songs that has stuck with me are the ones that sound like they could've been on amala, like "go off" and "often."

"paint the town red" is reaching a level of annoying tiktok ubiquity, but i still kinda dig it