NPR's 150 Albums Made by Women

List
Ann Powers essay

I can't argue with #1. I can argue with Pretenders scoring so relatively low on the list, but I sense a certain anti-canonical, millennial-pandering slant to this list (which #1 defies, yes). Adele?! Britney?!? Should I just be grateful that Lana Del Rey didn't make the cut?

Anyway, I like the idea behind this list, and I will probably end up checking out a few things based on it, but argue and carp and teeth-gnash away.

I'm just reminded of the existence of this:
http://www.npr.org/sections/allsongs/2011/10/11/141232995/youve-never-heard-joni-mitchells-blue

Looking forward to a bunch of dudes criticizing the list.

Looking forward to a bunch of dudes criticizing the list.

I was mostly looking forward to a bunch of dudes asserting that other dudes shouldn't criticize the list, and hooray, it's happened twice already!

I said nothing about making the list impervious to criticism, but hooray for joining the chat, unperson.

At any rate: Oumou Sangare made it.

Would have been nice to see Carla Bley, Doro Pesch (or anyone from the metal world), Maja Ratkje, and Pharmakon. And making it less performer-focused would have made room for Anna Thorvaldsdottir, among many other female composers.

Spiceworld crushes Spice

Why start it in 1964? You're disqualifying great albums from Peggy Lee, Ella's Cole Porter record, Yma Sumac and on and on

Many many beloved albums on there, but my efforts to crack Joni Mitchell fail every time.

I thought it was odd to choose Nico's Chelsea Girl rather than one of her own songwriting efforts, as the list doesn't shy away from avant work, and Marble Index and Desert Shore seem better regarded in general. Certainly more breakthrough.

I like the choices for Buffy Sainte-Marie, Celia Cruz, Etta James. The '78 collab with Tito Puente wouldn't be my choice for La Lupe, but the write-up makes me want to relisten to it.

xp Agreed on Nico. I'm missing Minnie Riperton, Judee Sill, Vashti Bunyan, Linda Perhacs.

glad to see Reba in there, even though Have I Got A Deal For You would've been a vastly superior pick imo

interesting exclusion of Joan Baez & Judy Collins, not that I'm a fan but they were both hugely popular in their day. Was Grace Slick in there? surely she defined and woman-ized the otherwise-male Jefferson Airplane in much the same way Kim Gordon did Sonic Youth?

yay la lupe is on this list!
i can't bring myself to look at the whole thing rn but i am glad she is on there

The singers and bands are mostly great choices, but the ranking and album choices at times are very peculiar, which is a testament of the subjective quality to compiling a music list.

I have to echo Josefa in that 1964 as a start date seems too arbitrary. Yma Sumac really does deserve to be on this list, as NPR seems to want to have a representative from all parts of the globe.

With that in mind, I can't help but sense some misjudgment in including Astrud Gilberto, whose scope of songs released were limited but with maybe one or two major hit, but deny Elis Regina entry, who in my opinion is vastly superior.

As such, the extent of knowledge of niche styles by its compilers seem to be limited, as is shown by serious omissions of folk singer-songwriters Judee Sill and Vashti Bunyan, as Le Bateau Ivre mentioned.

I would have loved to see inclusion of a fado singer, since they barely touch the surface of it by ranking Astrud Gilberto and her interpretation of saudade.

Elis Regina, hell yeah. And yes, kind of weird no Grace Slick. (Joan Baez is on there for Diamonds and Rust).

My personal list would have Dalida on it and some Italian singers like Mina and Ornella Vanoni.

ok i looked
that is not my favorite la lupe album by a longshot & tito puente booted her out of the band iirc (acc to the documentary, when she sang "me botó" over and over?)
kinda weird choice but i am glad she is on there
list seems pretty good so far to me -- have glanced through 150-101
full of inspiration for youngs <3

the extent of knowledge of niche styles by its compilers seem to be limited
seems otm but good for beginners to browse

is shirley collins in there somewhere? i hope?

No Grouper = list is illegitimate

It's a good list, but no Gal Costa? :(

Why start it in 1964? You're disqualifying great albums from Peggy Lee, Ella's Cole Porter record, Yma Sumac and on and on

― Josefa, Monday, July 24, 2017 12:32 PM (one hour ago)

agreed! and I know it's silly to criticize a greatest albums list for being too album-centric, but 60s pop acts like The Ronettes and The Shangri-Las and The Supremes would have been better represented by hits collections than by the (admittedly decent) albums they selected

As these things go--I've done enough of them myself--I think the mix is okay. Missing for me (the whole point in responding to a list is to say what you think is missing...): a Dionne Warwick compilation, a Shirelles compilation (they may miss the cut-off; their first greatest hits LP came out in '63), the Jefferson Airplane, Fairport Convention (are they on there? I might have missed them), and Liliput. I don't know how to quantify whether they "relied on women's creativity for their spark," but my four favourite bands this century are all missing: Wussy, Imperial Teen, Magnetic Fields, and Yo La Tengo. Same thing with Chic, not sure if they were deemed female enough. (A friend pointed out the scarcity of disco in general; I'm sure the counter would be that it was a singles genre.)

no shirley, oh well
i made it to the end -- this is a total hit parade! it's not a niche fan's list, it's the everybody list.

Clemenza, now that you mention Fairport Convention, a glaring omission is Sandy Denny.

no Hazel Dickens, no credibility (true of just about every list ever made)

can someone just post the list plz

No Mary Lou Williams, no Scrawl, no Crystalized Movements, no Marilyn Crispell...

(xpost) It's click-through and chopped up into 15 x 10 screens--difficult to post unless you spend some time cutting, pasting, and cutting.

No Mary Lou Williams

this was my immediate thought

this is a total hit parade! it's not a niche fan's list, it's the everybody list

I love the sound of that!

I don't! I hate everybody!

150. The Roches
The Roches (Warner Bros., 1979)

149. Alicia Keys
Songs In A Minor (J Records, 2001)

148. Terri Lyne Carrington
The Mosaic Project (Concord Jazz, 2011)

147. Meredith Monk
Dolmen Music (ECM, 1981)

146. Patty Griffin
Flaming Red (A&M, 1998)

145. Oumou Sangare
Moussolou (Women) (Kartell/World Circuit, 1989)

144. The Breeders
Last Splash (4AD/Elektra, 1993)

143. Robyn
Body Talk (Konichiwa Records, 2010)

142. Iris DeMent
My Life (Warner Bros., 1993)

141. Joanna Newsom
Ys (Drag City, 2006)

140. Norah Jones
Come Away with Me (Blue Note, 2002)

139. The Bangles
All Over the Place (Columbia, 1984)

138. Cocteau Twins
Heaven or Las Vegas (4AD, 1990)

137. Ofra Haza
50 Gates Of Wisdom (Yemenite Songs) (Shanachie, 1987)

136. Yoko Ono/Plastic Ono Band
Yoko Ono/Plastic Ono Band (Apple Records, 1970)

135. The B-52's
The B-52's (Warner Bros., 1979)

134. Solange
A Seat at the Table (Saint/Columbia 2016)

133. Fanny
Fanny Hill (Reprise, 1972)

132. Shelby Lynne
I Am Shelby Lynne (Island/Mercury, 2000)

131. Shirley Horn
I Thought About You — Live At Vine St. (Verve Records, 1987)

130. Teena Marie
Wild and Peaceful (Motown Records, 1979)

129. Marianne Faithfull
Broken English (Island, 1979)

128. Pauline Oliveros, Stuart Dempster, Panaiotis
Deep Listening (New Albion, 1989)

127. Sonic Youth
Sister (SST, 1987)

126. The Carpenters
A Song for You (A&M Records, 1972)

125. Fiona Apple
Tidal (Work Group/Clean Slate/Columbia, 1996)

124. Carly Simon
No Secrets (Elektra, 1972)

123. Cris Williamson
The Changer and the Changed: A Record of the Times (Olivia Records, 1975)

122. Siouxsie and the Banshees
The Scream (Polydor, 1978)

121. Joni Mitchell
Hejira (Asylum, 1976)

120. Anita Baker
Rapture (Elektra, 1986)

119. The Slits
Cut (Island Records, 1979)

118. Chaka Khan
I Feel for You (Warner Bros., 1984)

117. Joan Jett
I Love Rock 'n' Roll (Boardwalk, 1981)

116. Macy Gray
On How Life Is (Epic, 1999)

115. La Lupe & Tito Puente
La Pareja (Fania/Tico Records, 1978)

114. Reba McEntire
Rumor Has It (MCA, 1990)

113. Aretha Franklin
Young, Gifted and Black (Atlantic Records, 1972)

112. Mercedes Sosa
Mercedes Sosa en Argentina (Universal Distribution/Philips, 1982)

111. Diamanda Galás
The Litanies of Satan (Y, 1982)

110. Miranda Lambert
Platinum (RCA Nashville, 2014)

109. Against Me!
Transgender Dysphoria Blues (Total Treble, 2014)

108. Gladys Knight and the Pips
Imagination (Buddah Records, 1973)

107. The Shangri-Las
Leader of the Pack (Red Bird Records, 1965)

106. No Doubt
Tragic Kingdom (Interscope, 1995)

105. Sheila E.
The Glamorous Life (Warner Bros., 1984)

104. ESG
Come Away With ESG (99 Records, 1983)

103. Umm Kulthum
Enta Omri (You Are My Life) (Sono, 1964)

102. Alabama Shakes
Sound & Color (ATO, 2015)

101. Eurythmics
Touch (RCA, 1983)

100. Buffy Sainte-Marie
It's My Way! (Vanguard Records, 1964)

99. Taylor Swift
Fearless (Big Machine Records, 2008)

98. Bikini Kill
Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah (Kill Rock Stars, 1993)

97. Mariah Carey
Daydream (Columbia Records, 1995)

96. Lil' Kim
Hard Core (Big Beat/Undeas Recordings, 1996)

95. Shakira
¿Dónde Están los Ladrones? (Sony, 1998)

94. Sheryl Crow
Tuesday Night Music Club (A&M, 1993)

93. Britney Spears
...Baby One More Time (Jive Records, 1999)

92. Meshell Ndegeocello
Peace Beyond Passion (Maverick, 1996)

91. Alison Krauss And Union Station
New Favorite (Rounder, 2001)

90. Barbra Streisand
Funny Girl, Broadway Cast Album (Capitol Records, 1964)

89. Shania Twain
Come On Over (Mercury Records, 1997)

88. k. d. lang
Ingénue (Sire, 1992)

87. X
Los Angeles (Slash/Rhino, 1980)

86. Alice Coltrane
Journey in Satchidananda (GRP/Impulse!, 1971)

85. Joan Baez
Diamonds & Rust (A&M, 1975)

84. Roberta Flack
First Take (Atlantic, 1969)

83. Bobbie Gentry
Ode To Billie Joe (Capitol Records, 1967)

82. Laura Nyro
New York Tendaberry (Columbia, 1969)

81. Sleater-Kinney
Dig Me Out (Kill Rock Stars, 1997)

80. Laurie Anderson
Big Science (Warner Bros., 1982)

79. Portishead
Dummy (Go! Beat, 1994)

78. The Bulgarian State Radio & Television Choir
Le Mystère Des Voix Bulgares (Nonesuch, 1987)

77. Aaliyah
Aaliyah (Blackground/Virgin America 2001)

76. Tammy Wynette
Stand By Your Man (Epic, 1969)

75. Donna Summer
Bad Girls (Casablanca, 1979)

74. The Raincoats
The Raincoats (Rough Trade, 1979)

73. Astrud Gilberto
The Astrud Gilberto Album(Verve Records, 1965)

72. The Runaways
The Runaways (Mercury, 1976)

71. Salt-N-Pepa
Blacks' Magic (London, 1990)

70. Stevie Nicks
Bella Donna (Modern, 1981)

69. Cyndi Lauper
She's So Unusual (Portrait/Sony 1983)

68. Rosanne Cash
King's Record Shop (Columbia, 1987)

67. Sinead O'Connor
I Do Not Want What I Haven't Got (Chrysalis Records, 1990)

66. Miriam Makeba
Pata Pata (Reprise, 1967)

65. Cassandra Wilson
Blue Light 'Til Dawn (Blue Note, 1993)

64. Spice Girls
Spice (Virgin, 1996)

63. Madonna
Like a Virgin (Sire, 1984)

62. Dixie Chicks
Wide Open Spaces (BMG/Sony, 1998)

61. Destiny's Child
The Writing's on the Wall (Columbia, 1999)

60. The Pretenders
Pretenders (Sire, 1980)

59. Indigo Girls
Indigo Girls (Epic, 1989)

58. Labelle
Nightbirds (Epic, 1974)

57. Mary J. Blige
What's the 411? (Uptown/MCA, 1992)

56. X-Ray Spex
Germfree Adolescents (EMI, 1978)

55. The Go-Gos
Beauty And The Beat (I.R.S., 1981)

54. Nico
Chelsea Girl (Verve, 1967)

53. Linda Ronstadt
Heart Like A Wheel (Capitol, 1974)

52. Bonnie Raitt
Nick Of Time (Capitol/EMI, 1989)

51. Sarah Vaughan
Sassy Swings Again (Mercury, 1967)

50. Hole
Live Through This (DGC, 1994)

49. Rickie Lee Jones
Pirates (Warner Bros., 1981)

48. Etta James
Rocks The House (Argo, 1964)

47. Celia Cruz
Son con Guaguanco (Emusica/Fania, 1966)

46. Emmylou Harris
Wrecking Ball (Elektra, 1995)

45. Dusty Springfield
Dusty in Memphis (Atlantic, 1969)

44. Heart
Dreamboat Annie (Mushroom, 1976)

43. M.I.A.
Kala (XL/Interscope, 2007)

42. Ella Fitzgerald
Ella Fitzgerald Sings the Johnny Mercer Song Book (Verve, 1964)

41. Tracy Chapman
Tracy Chapman (Elektra, 1988)

40. The Staple Singers
Be Altitude: Respect Yourself (Stax, 1972)

39. Gillian Welch
Time (The Revelator) (Acony Records, 2001)

38. Odetta
It's a Mighty World (RCA Victor, 1964)

37. Kate Bush
Hounds Of Love (EMI, 1985)

36. Grace Jones
Nightclubbing (Island Records, 1981)

35. Blondie
Parallel Lines (Chrysalis, 1978)

34. Tina Turner
Private Dancer (Capitol, 1984)

33. Queen Latifah
All Hail The Queen (Tommy Boy, 1989)

32. Björk
Post (Elektra, 1995)

31. Liz Phair
Exile In Guyville (Capitol/EMI/Matador, 1993)

30. Adele
21 (Columbia/XL, 2011)

29. Alanis Morissette
Jagged Little Pill (Maverick, 1995)

28. Nina Simone
Nina Simone Sings the Blues (RCA Victor, 1967)

27. Tori Amos
Little Earthquakes (Atlantic, 1992)

26. TLC
CrazySexyCool (LaFace, 1994)

25. Ani Difranco
Little Plastic Castle (Righteous Babe Records, 1998)

24. Loretta Lynn
Coal Miner's Daughter (Decca, 1970)

23. Aretha Franklin
Amazing Grace (Atlantic, 1972)

22. Sade
Diamond Life (Sony, 1984)

21. PJ Harvey
Rid Of Me (Island Records, 1993)

20. The Ronettes
Presenting the Fabulous Ronettes Featuring Veronica (Philles Records, 1964)

19. Selena
Amor Prohibido (EMI Latin, 1994)

18. Lucinda Williams
Car Wheels On A Gravel Road (Mercury, 1998)

17. Janet Jackson
Control (A&M, 1986)

16. Fleetwood Mac
Rumours (Warner Bros., 1977)

15. Diana Ross and the Supremes
Where Did Our Love Go (Motown, 1964)

14. Whitney Houston
Whitney Houston (Arista, 1985)

13. Madonna
Like a Prayer (Sire, 1989)

12. Erykah Badu
Baduizm (Universal, 1997)

11. Dolly Parton
Coat Of Many Colors (RCA Records, 1971)

10. Carole King
Tapestry (Ode, 1971)

9. Amy Winehouse
Back To Black (Island, 2006)

8. Janis Joplin
Pearl (Columbia, 1971)

7. Patti Smith
Horses (Arista, 1975)

6. Beyoncé
Lemonade (Parkwood/Columbia, 2016)

5. Missy Elliott
Supa Dupa Fly (The Goldmind/Elektra, 1997)

4. Aretha Franklin
I Never Loved a Man The Way I Loved You (Atlantic, 1967)

3. Nina Simone
I Put A Spell on You (Philips, 1965)

2. Lauryn Hill
The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill (Ruffhouse/Columbia, 1998)

1. Joni Mitchell
Blue (Reprise, 1971)

Most annoying omission, for me: Kate and Anna McGarrigle

Surprised/not surprised to see how quickly Aimee Mann fell out of fashion, too (especially for the NPR crowd).

And I don't want to gripe about every millennial-appealing inclusion, but the relatively high ranking of Amy Winehouse, Adele and even Lemonade is premature.

Let me add, subjectively, the first Mamas and the Papas LP. Even boring old white guy Greil Marcus wrote them out of history in the intro to the Stranded discography, but that'd be on my list.

Anne Power's essay has an insight I'd felt but never been able to articulate:

The Beatles did something important historically. Aretha Franklin did too, but she's more often celebrated as a miracle. (Mea culpa: I've done the same thing within my critical writing, once basing an essay about Franklin around the opening line, "She manifests.")

Because the notion that women "be" still influences the way we think about female artists, they've mostly been canonized as personalities or essences, not makers of things.

I think there's still a good amount of that hanging around the mystique of Karen Dalton, Vashti Bunyan, Judee Sill, Denny and other dark, discouraged folkies who've gotten new recognition in the last 20 years or so, even though it's after 90s pop culture got more used to the idea of women as makers of things. Like, the doomed folkie mystique also applies to Nick Drake, Tim Hardin, Basho, Fahey, but they get talked about as creators as much as tragic figures. Composers even, with the last two.

I think Lemonade placing so high is premature but, in terms of it being the piece where Beyoncé cemented her grasp on distilling a bunch of disparate songs into a singular artistic vision, I don't begrudge its presence on the list, particularly when considered in the context of the visual album and how the music and accompanying visuals combine into a coherent, compelling narrative that has had people buzzing like crazy since it debuted. (It also helps that she has settled into a groove vocally that matches her; she's grown as a practitioner of the art of singing at a pace commensurate with her growth as an auteur.)

32. Björk
Post (Elektra, 1995)

The go-to for anyone who doesn't actually rate Björk.

at first i thought that it was a one-work-per-artist list but it's not, which makes the representative pick for certain artists all the more puzzling. like, i owned and listened to ...baby one more time as a 10-year-old -- but it's just not a good album. it is the embodiment of the good-to-incredible singles + execrable filler formula. i listened to it a million times, but almost every time i would listen to the first three tracks (all singles), skip "soda pop", then restart after "born to make you happy" (which wasn't a single in the us, but was obviously better than anything after it on the tracklisting).

like, i get that we wanna convey how influential britney was, both in general and in that moment in time, but it wasn't because this was a great album. most actual britney spears fans consider it one of her worst.

lists of albums are boring and regressive but otherwise i actually thought this was pretty good. will read the essay later.

beyoncé's self-titled is as good as or better than lemonade :\

Looks like it was pooled nominations, then a winnowing poll, a la ILM.

beyoncé's 4 is as good as or better than self-titled or lemonade :\

― dyl, Monday, July 24, 2017 1:08 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

fixed

^^^^ otm

Because the notion that women "be" still influences the way we think about female artists, they've mostly been canonized as personalities or essences, not makers of things.

And yet still no room for Carla Bley on the list. And if you're gonna pick just one trans person (Against Me! - really?), how about Wendy Carlos? Programming analog synths in the 70s > writing 4/4 punk rock songs.

The go-to for anyone who doesn't actually rate Björk.

I disagree vehemently. There are strong arguments as to why any of Post, Homogenic, or Vespertine would be Bjork's best album and it does her career no disservice to pick any of them for a list like this. It would be even better if both Post and Homogenic appeared, IMO.

beyoncé's self-titled is as good as or better than lemonade :\

The difference between s/t and Lemonade is the story; that is what (IMO) elevates Lemonade, particularly in the context of how many people Beyonce collaborated with across both music and video to create it.

beyoncé's 4 is as good as or better than self-titled or lemonade :\

4 is a decent-enough album but I've been listening to it a lot the past few days and the only songs on it where Beyonce doesn't sound flat-out atrocious are "Countdown", "End of Time", and "Love On Top". The rest of the time, she's a smaller-voiced singer trying to sing huge, sort of like the entirety of Ashanti's career, and it really brings down the album overall.

OTM. I've cooled on 4, or, rather less prepared to apologize for the crap songs.

Basically, Hollertronix Beyonce is the worst Beyonce and she spent most of her career prior to the s/t in that mode, which is partially why the s/t hits like a truck and why I wouldn't actually have been mad if it had been on this list instead of Lemonade.

(I will say that 4 is the first time that sustained Hollertronix Beyonce ever worked for me in the context of an entire album, which is what makes it notable in her solo catalog and why I bought it in the first place, but she's come a loooooooong way as a performer since then.)

DJP, stop being OTM. I'm getting tired of it.

btw i always include the bonus tracks when I refer to 4.

tbh i wouldve been fine with all three placing.

Agree that Beyonce needed to be on here. I'm less partial about which album (every one named has great songs; I probably prefer 4 myself, overall), but I just thought that Lemonade placing that high was a little too much like OK Computer topping that Q poll six months after it's release. She's still at that point in her career, though, where each new album can plausibly be called her greatest. We won't know what her best work is for decades yet.

I'm OK with Post, which probably says the exact thing about me that Eric suspects it does. I'm only surprised because I thought Homogenic had overtaken it in many people's affections by now (again, I have no agenda here, as I think both albums are great).

I'm clearly allergic to Britney, but I think I would have eye-rolled less hard if they had gone with one of her clubbier albums (In The Zone, Circus, whatever) rather than the debut. As it stands, NPR now has to live with the fact that they included an album that contains a song called "Email My Heart" on a list of best albums of all time.

Lists and lists so there will always be head scratchers on either side of the line, but surprised to see there's no McGarrigles, and no Sandy Denny. But especially no My Bloody Valentine.

(Lists are lists, that should lead.)

32. Björk
Post (Elektra, 1995)

The go-to for anyone who doesn't actually rate Björk.

That's me!

the critical rehabilitation of Nina Simone has really been interesting, would not have predicted it 10 years ago when most people had no idea who she was

oh I don't know -- in my circle she was the only black woman singer my friends were listening to in the late '90s. She always had her cult. It's critics who condescended to her.

she was def a cult figure, maybe partially because her catalog was so much about re-working the canon (so many covers and covers) that people didn't register her POV as being authentic or authorial or something (rockism etc.)? A lot of things about her previously coded as "square" - the virtuoso technique applied to super-pro studio arrangements of contemporary hits or weird genre exercises, for example. She doesn't fit into prior established roles of black, female artistes. So it's interesting to see her suddenly explode into wider pop consciousness because of... what, exactly? The documentary? The end credits of Inland Empire? idk

lol that was supposed to say "so many standards and covers"

sorry

what's next, a Joan Armitrading revival

Jeff Buckley was big on Nina Simone, iirc.

I'm not surprised. If it isn't clear I'm not a huge Nina fan myself - can take or leave most of her catalog - but I can't deny she's a fascinating figure/personality.

what's next, a Joan Armitrading revival

― Οὖτις, Monday, July 24, 2017 5:55 PM

She's good too. I'm surprised she wasn't on the list!

well as noted there's all kinds of gaps. these sorts of lists are always telling in who's in/who's out indicating what's culturally valued critically these days. Poptimism still in full swing, obviously.

all the biggest post-boomer names represented, recent chart-pop goddesses respected, Gen X/riot grrl feminist wave present, a smattering of non-English speaking artists to demonstrate global breadth.

but nothing too obscure or currently maligned/ignored, various minor genre outliers, or too old (the starting point here is really lame, as noted. No Carter Family!)

Poptimism still in full swing, obviously.

grr

am I supposed to use some other term

Liking pop music has been part of the listening and critical experience since the beginning: Stevie Nicks, Aretha, Kate Bush (in England) were pop stars. Including Britney is no different. An argument for another thread, though.

fair enough, yes I was using it as shorthand for "critical post-90s chartpop darlings"

and Madonna of course!

eh I consider Madonna in a league of her own tbh

(granted it's still a league I have no interest in listening to, but her place in the culture is undeniable)

To offset the griping (mostly mine), three that I was delighted to see here: Patty Griffin, Sheila E, Against Me!

I see what you did there.

xpost

high five

Was Grace Slick in there? surely she defined and woman-ized the otherwise-male Jefferson Airplane in much the same way Kim Gordon did Sonic Youth?

I think the reasoning might be that Slick rarely had more than a few songs on any given Airplane release, and outside of those songs her biggest musical contributions were harmonies whereas Gordon had a bigger part of SY both in songwriting and as a bass/guitar player.

I say this because I can't be the only one who picked up Surrealistic Pillow after seeing it on umpteen 'Women In Rock' lists and being disappointed that the only Grace songs were the two I already knew from the radio.

So much good stuff and nothing I could think of that was missing, tho I didn't see Judee Sill?

Amy Winehouse ranked in top 10 is OTM - Such a great loss, the only one I think who could've brought doo-wop back again and make it fresh

I can think of lots of stuff missing but they are personal favorites and why would critical consensus overlap with them

yeah I can think of stuff missing now too like Vashti etc but i'm with you there on consensus

the fader came out with their own list of 150 more great records by women: http://www.thefader.com/2017/07/24/150-more-great-albums-made-by-women-npr-list

Still no Gal Costa. We need 150 more.

top 1000 or gtfo

iirc Nina Simone's rehabilitation into the mainstream happened because of two 90s movies.

Bridget Fonda's 'Point of No Return' in 1993 and, later, the use of "Sinnerman" in the remake of 'Thomas Crown Affair' in 1999.

Courtney Barnett - Sometimes I Sit And Think And Sometimes I Just Sit
Janelle Monae - The ArchAndroid
Jazmine Sullivan - Reality Show
Kathleen Edwards - Failer

They picked the wrong (or at least less correct) Rilo Kiley and Tegan and Sara records, but yes to these!

Joni Mitchell is one of the few artists represented twice on this list, including (deservedly) at the top, but still, surely, Court and Spark should have made it thrice. Also, where's Anne Briggs?

Re Simone, I remember hearing "My Baby Just Cares for Me" quite prominently in 1995's Shallow Grave.

i don't think the reasons why are really mysterious, but reading through the npr list it seemed disappointing to me - basically, like, inescapably bound to the meagerness that can seem to attach to 'great x by women' or 'important women who xed' counter-historical efforts, where it's always the same handful of examples set against the historically biased entirety of xing. it's like the '... by women' version of a rolling stone greatest albums list or whatever that ends up having sgt pepper's or revolver in the top slot, but the legacy conceptions driving the listmaking process are the artists' past starring-role involvement in '... by women' narratives.

and then looking at a list like the fader list, it seems way more like a list of great albums - i bet if it wasn't flagged as a list of albums by women it would even take a while to register that it even was.

Re Simone, I remember hearing "My Baby Just Cares for Me" quite prominently in 1995's Shallow Grave.

Yeah, that's another one. Her resurgence came via movie soundtracks.

Some other major omissions: Dolly Mixture - Demonstration Tapes, Heavenly - Le Jardin de Heavenly, Big Mama Thornton - With the Muddy Waters Blues Band. Of more recent stuff I would have included the most recent Julia Holter, Hurray for the Riff Raff, and Chastity Belt probably as well. But that's just me.

Slapp Happy - Acnalbasac Noom would have been a kick to see here as well.

Looking forward to a bunch of dudes criticizing the list.

― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn)

looking forward to endless bickering about #109

lol at npr confusing aynsley dunbar and sly dunbar

Still no Gal Costa. We need 150 more.

― Frederik B, Monday, July 24, 2017 7:06 PM (three hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it's really hard for me to look at this as anything other than "a list of records" given the selection criteria and this is still an awful omission

stuff like mirah, hanne hukkelberg, slapp happy and perhacs are omissions but more of a personal nature and the list is as others have mentioned, hit heavy

That's a lot of bad music on that list there, tell you what.

Some good stuff, too, though.

Btw, Peggy Lee made some pretty outstanding albums from 1964 on, including the one they dipped into for the Mad Men finale, Is That All There Is?. I realize she was no Britney Spears or Robyn, but still.

Re Jefferson Airplane: I understand C. Grissom's point, and his explanation for their absence is probably dead on, but for me Slick's centrality to the band can't be quantified by songwriting credits or number of vocal turns. Her two songs on Surrealistic Pillow dwarf the rest of the album in terms of public awareness--they shouldn't, there are other great songs, but they do--and my own sense as a teenager in the mid-'70s, when I bought Worst Of, was that she was the face of the band. I knew her name long before I knew Marty Balin's or Paul Kantner's.

The Sings Johnny Mercer Song Book is an excellent Ella pick, but for a second there I indulged in - wha-wha-what, this lower than Adele - type listicle outrage!

5. Missy Elliott
Supa Dupa Fly (The Goldmind/Elektra, 1997)
This album dismantled the hip-hop boy's club. For the first time in history a woman rapped, sang, wrote and produced every song on a major rap release.

I dunno if it makes sense to suggest the hip hop boys club was dismantled in 1997, but that's just contemporary journalism, and I wouldn't want to argue against praise in favor of this album. However, I'm surprised by the suggestion that Missy produced this album since it's usually assumed to be (and certainly sounds like) an all Timbaland production. Anyone know more about Missy's role as producer on this?

looking forward to commenters looking forward to the 150 albums made by men

...list

surprised to not see any Sarah McLachlan on this

Sandy Denny? Shirley Collins? June Tabor? Maddy Prior?

Finding space for Adele while snubbing Mahalia Jackson absolutely sucks as well! But lists eh? They are all nonsense.

Needed to be 1,500 albums.

looking forward to commenters looking forward to the 150 albums made by men

― plp will eat itself (NickB), Tuesday, July 25, 2017 9:12 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

was bloody waiting for someone to say this

Sure but were you looking forward to it?

Yeah, was waiting as well. Really didn't want to be the one to say it.

i personally would've loved to have seen mary margaret o'hara on that list but there are a good number of records that i've never actually listened to before so it's nice to be reminded to check them out without the usual manbands clogging the place up

I honestly think the NPR list is pretty exciting. The top 10 manages to consist of albums that both seem like no-brainers, but also for a lot of them isn't included on a lot of lists. It's a great counter-canon, even - perhaps especially - as it doesn't really seem to want to be that.

as it doesn't really seem to want to be that.

The intro is titled "A New Canon: In Pop Music, Women Belong At The Center Of The Story." "In building a new canon..." turns up below.

Which is fine. But I don't think you can say there's not a conscious effort to do exactly that.

Ok, fair point.

(I agree with you if you focus on the "counter-" part. They seem to be fine with including a lot of old standbys.)

While y'all wait for the 'what about the top 150 albums made by men?' comments, I'll await the 'how about giving some credit to all of the men involved in the top 150 albums made by women?' comments.

The majority of my favorite music is woman-centric. More lists like this, please.

This is what happens when I'm up early waiting for the A/C guy to come and do an inspection. I end up posting about the minutiae of canons and counter-canons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spYW0gutg38

They did a pretty decent job of hitting most of the majors. Beyond personal favorites who I wouldn't really have expected to see, I can only think of a handful of glaring omissions off the top of my head: Karen Dalton, Cat Power, Minnie Riperton, Janis Ian, Young Marble Giants. Maybe like Juliana Hatfield and/or Mary Timony.

http://www.thefader.com/2017/07/24/150-more-great-albums-made-by-women-npr-list/amp?utm_source=f&utm_medium=fb&utm_campaign=share

Clearly no one cares about Dionne Warwick (is it that there's a stated or implied rule about compilations?), no one cares about Sandy Denny/Fairport Convention, and no one thinks the Jefferson Airplane qualify. Some good stuff, though.

glad the Fader list catches Stereolab. In addition to the Brit folk oversights mentioned so far (Shirley Collins most egregious for me), Linda Thompson is being overlooked, and Anne Briggs as well.

yeah i was surprised by the lack of cat power...has her critical clout fallen that far?

so did neko case call in and say keep me the fuck away from your list orrrrrrrrrrr...

5. Missy Elliott
Supa Dupa Fly (The Goldmind/Elektra, 1997)
This album dismantled the hip-hop boy's club. For the first time in history a woman rapped, sang, wrote and produced every song on a major rap release.

Agreed that this um description is annoying at best - Timbaland has the producer credit on it, and it's kind of annoying how women get erased from hip hop history when they were prominent from the very beginning, from Sweet Tee to JJ Fad to MC Lyte etc etc

yeah i was surprised by the lack of cat power...has her critical clout fallen that far?

yup! no tUNEyARDS either

Kim Kelly is tweeting a list of 150 metal albums by women.

Clearly no one cares about Dionne Warwick (is it that there's a stated or implied rule about compilations?)

Yeah, kind of assume a lot of women active in the '60s or earlier are unfairly shut out of the list because coherent albums weren't as much a thing.

If compilations were fair game, this list should've had One Kiss Can Lead to Another number one with a bullet.

I’m thinking this might be a bad time to shop around the “Why Rock and Roll Needs to Be Left to the Men” piece I’ve been working on the past few months.

A list of 150 pre-1964 albums would be desirable. Not a list-maker myself, but I've already started to do this in my head

Think you could make a strong case for Make Way for Dionne Warwick, her third studio album ('64). It's got "Walk on By" and lots else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Make_Way_for_Dionne_Warwick

Oh damn, Betty Davis is missing.

Lists are pretty dumb, especially when you're casting the net so wide.

I still like the idea of this list, but I do think it would have been a bit more meaningful if they declined to rank the albums. Yes, that would put Baby One More Time on the same level as Blue and all that, but I think that forgoing the competitive method of ranking would have been more in keeping with the spirit of what they are trying to accomplish here.

ricki lee jones was complaining on twitter, i'd make a case for her first album

i dunno, seems like a lot of weird picks...

obv love the band but Sonic Youth seems a little odd to me for the purposes of this list

some recent stuff being way overrated but that's the case with every list ever

loved that this made it, what an amazing record:

78. The Bulgarian State Radio & Television Choir
Le Mystère Des Voix Bulgares (Nonesuch, 1987)

agree w/whoever said Mary Margaret O'Hara Miss America should have made the list

Melt Banana was robbed!!

MC Lyte's Act Like You Know should have been on the list

are we at the point where we're just listing people we would have personally included?

Stereolab, Broadcast, Betty Carter, Blossom Dearie, Hellen Merrill, Betty Davis, Gal Costa, MC Lyte, Wanda Jackson, Lee Ann Womack, Kacey Musgraves, Asha Bhosle, Yeah Yeah Yeahs, Delta 5, Concrete Blonde, THE CRAMPS (maybe the most unforgivable imo), Damon & Naomi, Deerhoof, Digable Planets, Fiery Furnaces/Eleanor Friedberger, New Pornographers/Neko Case, the Geraldine Fibbers, Lynn Collins, Unrest, Mazzy Star, Opal/Kendra Smith, Nancy Sinatra, Royal Trux, Suzi Quatro, the Vaselines, X

xpost I mean...you and I may feel that Melt Banana was robbed, but this is NPR we're talking about here.

if Sonic Youth is eligible idk why stuff like the Velvets or White Stripes wouldn't also merit inclusion

xp

Le Mystere Des Voix Bulgares should have been a lot higher, IMO

now that i think about it, i believe this list is designed to inspire further lists -- good strategy!

heh

xpost I mean...you and I may feel that Melt Banana was robbed, but this is NPR we're talking about here.

― Chock Full of Love and Sexy Feeling (Old Lunch), Tuesday, July 25, 2017 12:21 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

My first reaction was "no Scissor Girls?!" But yeah considering the source...

i was kinda kidding about melt banana (tho i do think they are better than stuff that made the list)

Ricki Lee Jones & Mary Margaret O'Hara (and Jefferson Airplane if they they include X and Sonic Youth) I'm more surprised that they didn't make it

MC Lyte I think that's a bit of an injustice (imo)

actually looking at Outic's list I AM kinda surprised Mazzy Star didn't make it

there's a lot of more recent critical faves that have faded from view (aforementioned tUNEyARDs, YYYs, etc.) that aren't included. They seem to fall into that middle ground of not-old-enough-to-be-a-shoe-in and too recent to have any sense of potential lasting impact/relevance. (In that respect the more poptimist - sorry Alfred - nominees got it easier, since they are validated by chart presence and continuing prominence as pop avatars)

maybe put Lana Del Rey into that recent critical faves category too? Lily Allen?

Lorde?

I thought Rickie Lee Jones did make it in? Pirates.

Five to fifteen years after a critical fanfare seems to be a dead zone where it remains to be seen if the next generation of music obsessives latch on to a record. Especially in recent decades when a those types of artists often have years between releases.

Pixies a big omission, imo. Shocked Lorde didn't make it in.

Pixies a big omission, imo

Last Splash >>>>> every Pixies album

I don't know about that, but definitely more women in the band.

X were in there Οὖτις, but yeah Royal Trux is a good shout. More soul and funk might have been good, the mention of Betty Davis upthread OTM. Fever Ray were on the Fader list but The Knife would be a good addition.

so yeah loads more possibilities but lots and lots of great stuff to check out on the NPR list!

ah sorry about X, missed that

xp

Cibo Matto a definite oversight. Sheesh, it's almost as if there are more than 150 great albums made by women!

So... how much of what we're seeing is a schism between "female artists male critics like" and "female artists female critics like" (since it was an all-female jury that compiled the list)?

Glasser doesn't have enough of a profile/impact to appear on lists like this but I wish she did because both albums I've heard by her are astonishing.

might also be an NPR vs not NPR schism xp

Seriously. It's a little shocking that only one Norah Jones album made the cut.

(NB, I enjoy the musical stylings of Norah Jones.)

i don't believe it's a schism so much as a nudge

Pirates was 49, yes. This is RLJ's response

Pirates NPR DJS vote'49th greatest female LP of all. 50 greater lps by women? i dont think so!! maybe 25.or30. but not 50. Mbarrassed.

— Rickie Lee Jones (@RickieLeeJones) July 25, 2017

NPR say "RickieLeeJones"NOT 1ofthe IMPORTANT female records!(chuck E, lastchanceTexaco)btFanny,YokoOno&Raincoats,Runaways&GraceJones ARE!

— Rickie Lee Jones (@RickieLeeJones) July 25, 2017

ha I almost listed Glasser, Dan. I like that first album a lot but it seems p obscure idk

Mbarrassed @ @RickieLeeJones

<3 that first RLJ tweet (no need to bash Fanny, Yoko, the Raincoats, the Runaways or Grace Jones, though)

is rickie lee not performing all of pirates at the launch party for this list

Heavenly - Le Jardin de Heavenly,

Seconded. Maybe there would've been an indie pop album in the next 50.

maybe put Lana Del Rey into that recent critical faves category too? Lily Allen?

― Οὖτις

When talking about recent critical favourites, St Vincent has to be the most surprising omission for me.

ooh yes good catch

I'm happy to see Cocteau Twins on the list (even though it's about 140 places too low) but I would have also liked to see Saint Etienne, Lush, The Sundays, Sterolab and Broadcast on there too.

Going back to Dionne Warwick, I can't say I've heard many of her albums but Just Being Myself from 73 is definitely worth a place. It's one of many great 70s soul albums I'm disappointed missed out. Caught Up by Millie Jackson, either of the first two Syreeta albums, Betty Wright's Hard To Stop, any of those brilliant Rufus/Chaka Khan albums, Woman To Woman by Shirley Brown, Ann Peebles, Margie Joseph and the biggest omission of all, no Minnie Riperton. They could have picked any of her first three albums, they're all incredible.

unsurprisingly I wish kristin hersh and stina nordenstam were on the list but am not surprised they're not. the surprise for me is Karin Dreijer/The Knife

also I would have chosen The Idler Wheel or When the Pawn over Tidal and From the Choirgirl Hotel or Boys for Pele over either of the ones on the list

I'm surprised The Knife didn't show up, as well.

I like Fader's list a lot more but disappointed Rachel Stevens didn't make it to either list :(

And why not?

http://themuse.jezebel.com/the-150-worst-albums-made-by-men-1797242454

Now we're getting somewhere! Though putting Slint on there at all, and placing Metal Machine Music at 27, is disappointingly challopsy.

I was all in on that list until this entry

7. Bob Dylan, Christmas in the Heart

which is one of the greatest Christmas albums ever made

haha kid A just to piss off the world love it

Yeah true Slint is the worst shit ever uh

Last Splash >>>>> every Pixies album

― Οὖτις, Tuesday, July 25, 2017 2:07 PM

otm

Nah.

jezebel list is great except for kid a, bob dylan xmas (agree w/ Οὖτις) and cringe-inducingly obvious challops of putting fuckin' sgt pepper in there like it's still last month and we're still having to read those bs contrarian thinkpieces

A missed opportunity to trash LCD Soundsystem and Fleet Foxes.

I'm surprised to see Slint on there, I didn't think Spiderland was quite popular enough to get the "icky boys like it so it's funny to say it's bad" treatment.

Good lord, this whole ordeal.
http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/d4/d4824a1a0f58f3a938bc389fbfb3cc5c084f9a354c1ed8f887f9e3b29d98bcff.jpg

I was surprised no Throwing Muses, neither list and only one mention here. I didn't think they had disappeared from the critical eye so much.

I like how on that Jezebel list they give no explanation for anything, and how they include a link for exactly one album, Orgy Punk Statik Paranoia, as if they assume their readership is familiar with all the other craptacular choices.

jezebel list is corny imo. too many fish-barrel choices & reinforcing conventional wisdom + random critical darlings whoever made it doesnt like personally

it cant help but feel like its still mainly pandering to ppl's generic ideas of 'good' & 'bad' taste esp around notions of class

love that RLJ tweet. The order of the poll is contentious, I mean in no world should Kate Bush be that low

now if jezebel made a list of 150 worst albums by women...

I thought it was convenient that the entire Jezebel list was all on one page rather than divided into 15 annoying parts, but then the page finished loading and there ended up being an ad every 3 entries, amounting to 50 ads you have to scroll through as you read a list of the 150 lowest rated rateyourmusic albums. very 'fuck the system', that

just realised, no Abba!

There's some good juxtapositions on that list, like this:

133. Chief Keef, Finally Rich

132. Drake, Views

131. Phish, Lawn Boy

Guns'n'Roses surprisingly low.

Clemenza otm on the arbitrariness of the Mamas and the Papas and Jefferson Airplane falling out of favor.

it's cuz they suck

A 1939-1963 list:
https://medium.com/@jonathanbogart/the-150-greatest-albums-by-women-before-1964-54393ae871ec

Throwing Muses/Hersch (and maybe Mary Margaret O'Hara, though she's more obscure to begin with) feels like the biggest omission from a list which is explicitly setting out to grapple with gender questions.

I think the artist choices are good ones. I assume there were pretty explicit riding instructions to focus on ~impact~, hence selections like Like A Virgin which pretty much no one thinks is better than the albums before and after it, Britney's debut, even Erykah Badu's debut.

I have lost track of what this thread has covered, as is often the case when I browse this web-site, but I wanted to say 150 of the worst albums by men seems like a drop in the ocean. I think it is safe to say every other album released by a man is bad, not necessarily based on their sexual orientation and/or gender, but because DAW software is so easily attained and has made music creation very simple. We need not go further than Jake Paul, who I'm sure would top this list if he had the attention span to write a full album's worth of songs.

I admit to being a bit surprised by the inclusion of Wilco's Yankee Hotel Foxtrot as one of the "worst" albums by men in the totality of albums made by men, though. The higher placed albums seem to be honest attempts at selecting the worst ones at least.

32. Enrique Iglesias, Sex and Love

31. Placebo, Placebo

30. Nickelback, Silver Side Up

that's some shade @ Placebo lol

Against Me!
Transgender Dysphoria Blues (Total Treble, 2014)

Thought this was a list of albums by women.

Congrats, I've been on ilx for eight years and that was the first time I've ever flagged a post. Truly disgusting comment.

Yeah, what the hell there, Rudi?

While I disagree with the sentiment expressed above, that particular album's inclusion did feel very "it's 2017—we've gotta have one" to me. I mean, musically, Against Me! ain't shit and never have been.

yo rudipherous fuck you

it's cuz they suck

― Οὖτις

Hey, c'mon, we already had this fight on the Cream thread--not fun!

Response-lists are proliferating so quickly that posting about omissions seems even more nitpicky than usual. But I'll point out what I think is a major one on the pre-'64 list, the second thing I checked for after the Shirelles (who are there): the Chantels. They essentially invented girl-group. Skimmed quickly, looks like a good list otherwise.

thought greil m's comment today was interesting:

The point of a list is selection: ruthlessly, unfairly, perversely, both to start a conversation and to mock the whole idea of boiling anything in life down to a list. Dave Marsh’s The Heart of Rock & Soul: The 1001 Greatest Singles Ever Made is not really a list: it’s a long walk through one person’s taste, sense of history, idiosyncrasy, love and hate.
With a list of 150 albums—as if the great moments are there—all kinds of factors come into play that deforms any sense of what is and what isn’t. Considerations of balance and fairness—the opposite of what a list should be—in terms of eras, race, ethnicity, genre, and on and on make decisions, not what do I love, what would distort the story if it were left out (or included). And there’s too much—when there’s room for anything and everyone, who cares?
I could say that any top list that puts Joni Mitchell’s Blue over Aretha’s I Never Loved a Man or X-ray Spex’s Germfree Adolescents is a travesty, but really, you have to dive into the depths of 130-150 to grapple with the thing, and who will? The truth is, when you run through the whole thing, it’s dispiriting. The need to play fair has led to a pile of records, many of which are not really very good, and some of which aren’t good at all.

https://greilmarcus.net/ask-greil-2/

Hmm... so basically his point is that 150 is not a good number of items for a list of this type? It sounds like he's saying they should either have picked more or fewer.

I don't get where he thinks "the need to play fair" led to inclusion of bad records. He knows how P&J works. High-scoring albums and, I'm sure, the need to play fair affected those choices too. He's assuming these women picked Bluebecause they were playing fair? He's on firmer ground arguing the pick is a travesty and letting it go, which is at least an aesthetic judgment.

The need to play fair has led to a pile of records, many of which are not really very good, and some of which aren’t good at all.

NPR's arts coverage in 28 words.

Any list.

Gentlemen, it's not a stretch to imagine Blue showing up on the most ballots by female critics, as it will in many male critics' list.

Blue is not one of the albums on the list I'd argue with. I've never heard it.

A 1939-1963 list:
https://medium.com/@jonathanbogart/the-150-greatest-albums-by-women-before-1964-54393ae871ec

― etc, Wednesday, July 26, 2017 5:46 PM

This is a fantastic list, and dare I say it would be more educational to more people than the NPR list. He nails virtually all of the albums I considered when I was daydreaming about making such a list. His top Ella Fitzgerald choice would also be mine: The Duke Ellington Songbook, which I've been listening to recently and is truly astonishing. It's a quadruple album! I like that Italian singers Milva and Mina also make this list.

His choices for Peggy Lee are also excellent - Black Coffee (1953) and Latin ala Lee! (1960). I own almost all of Peggy Lee's albums and those are definitely two of my favorites.

Hard to argue with the choice of Yma Sumac's Voice of the Xtabay but I might choose her album Mambo! over that, or in addition to it.

This is a fantastic list, and dare I say it would be more educational to more people than the NPR list.

It's a very good list, but I doubt it will have much educational value when there's no description of the records. Not even a blurb.

Re the lack of blurbs, he wrote:

I haven’t written blurbs for them because I wanted to get this list out while people still remembered NPR’s original list. But I extremely recommend every single last one of them — and the top fifty or so are change-the-world great

that's not enough to be educational imo

i liked the blurbs in the npr list -- seeing the albums listed without them (and the cover art) diminishes the utility of the list imo. they were thoughtful and contextualized the albums for people who may not be familiar. they were...educational!

it makes me long to be 12 and educate myself in the era of streaming

NPR had a team of folks writing those blurbs, Bogart just did his pre-1964 list himself

that's fine, my point is that the that lack of blurbs makes it less useful in this way
doesn't mean it wasn't a good list -- i'm sure it is!

Fair point re the blurbs, but I meant just listening to the albums - however that might happen - would be educational, or perhaps "broadening" would be a better word

yeah -- i think the NPR list acts as a perfect gateway to that kind of further exploration. it's why i like the list! it generates discussion (see the many lists generated by the existence of this one) as well as points of reference for noob seekers.

Nothing very contentious, just a list of more oddball omissions: http://www.thestranger.com/slog/2017/07/27/25308219/the-problem-with-nprs-150-greatest-albums-made-by-women-list. Love seeing the Shop Assistants on there, was going to mention them.

it makes me long to be 12 and educate myself in the era of streaming

I think about stuff like that often--the trade-off between what I missed out on in access and what I got from the lifelong search.

I remember how excited I was in 2000 during the Napster era when I finally go to hear Mick Jagger's "Let's Work"!

I'm still searching for "Let's Work."

Like that list by The Stranger

Not sure they needed to go this meta though: http://www.thestranger.com/slog/2017/07/27/25310745/the-problem-with-jezebels-150-worst-albums-made-by-men-list

lol this is getting out of hand

That Stranger list keeps destroying my browser!

I get the discovery angle - any decent list is a gateway - but at the same time I keep imagining that inquisitive 12 year old saying "Oh so women make music too? Wow!" Greil Marcus makes a good point, the overall urge for inclusiveness renders the bulk of NPR's selections obvious, bland or just bad.

I think there's also the issue of the blurb format and how writers will use that. If you're using 2/3 of the space to explain background information on the album, there's not much room left for particular insights on the music.

but at the same time I keep imagining that inquisitive 12 year old saying "Oh so women make music too? Wow!"
you are really underestimating the mental capacity of a 12 year old

A 150 albums list with blurbs suggests right off the back that the writing is going to be dispassionate. A piece like that with 150 blurbs all filled with passion would be a major overload.

it makes me long to be 12 and educate myself in the era of streaming

I was just reading through some person's lists on RYM, and he had probably almost 100 lists which he had made over a couple of years, apparently while in college and getting into music for the first time (this was circa 2010), and it just blew my mind to think how much music this guy had been exposed to in such a short span of time because of the internet. When I was in college I probably spend as much time as that guy trying to discover new music, except I probably ended up hearing about 1% of what he was able to hear with the same amount of effort.

i recently discovered Fairuz (on the 1939-1964 list) when i asked a friend who just moved here from Syria via Lebanon about Omar Souleyman, and he laughed in my face for a good minute, and said 'no one in syria listens to that crap' and 'he's a fool who looks ridiculous and his lyrics make no sense' then told me to check out Fairuz. it's really pretty

I could say that any top list that puts Joni Mitchell’s Blue over Aretha’s I Never Loved a Man or X-ray Spex’s Germfree Adolescents is a travesty, but really, you have to dive into the depths of 130-150 to grapple with the thing, and who will?

What's Marcus' stance on Mitchell anyway? The extent of my knowledge is that he didn't include her in Tresure Island, and that obviously he prefers lady Punk Rock to her.

If you scroll down a few questions on the "Ask Greil" page, there's actually a question specifically about Mitchell:

07/21/17
I recently reread your review of The Last Waltz movie and was struck by, among many things, your wonderful description of Joni Mitchell singing “Coyote”:

“Joni Mitchell, swaying her hips for ‘Coyote’ is mesmerizing; she acts out the role of a goddess on the make, an image only slightly undercut--or reinforced—-by the pack of cigarettes jammed into the waistband of her skirt.”

After reading that, I looked around to see if you had any other writing on Joni Mitchell but I couldn’t find any. I’d be curious to know your thoughts about Joni Mitchell’s music or, more briefly, which songs of hers, if any, have resonated with you over the years.
Thank you!
– Andy

I think I’ve only written about Joni Mitchell one other time, in a Real Life Rock Top 10 item from February 1998

4. Darren Starr, creator, Melrose Place (Fox, November 24, 1997) Dr. Brett Cooper, who has a real serial girlfriend-in-a-coma problem, attends comatose Megan. “Music can get through where nothing else can,” Coop says over Megan. “I’m betting you love Joni Mitchell as much as I do.” He slips a CD into a boom box, and as the camera comes in close on Megan’s face you can barely hear “Big Yellow Taxi.” “I’m awake! I’m awake!” screamed a sympathetic viewer. “Just turn off that horrible music!”

Save for a song here or there, that pretty much sums up my response to the endless self-regard and smugness I’ve found in her music--she and Leonard Cohen were made for each other.

As I wrote to a friend, I think his designation of self-regard (which is probably endemic to the early-'70s singer-songwriters anyway) is pretty arbitrary there--not sure how she's any more given to self-regard than Neil Young.

Oh, OK. I also seem to recall seeing a pan of the Counting Crows & Vanessa Carlton cover of "BYT" in a RLRT10 back when it was new and possibly an entry about Mitchell's then-new orchestral LPs in another column.

but at the same time I keep imagining that inquisitive 12 year old saying "Oh so women make music too? Wow!"
you are really underestimating the mental capacity of a 12 year old

i was being totally sarcastic (like a 12 yr old)

my point is despite its worthy intentions this whole exercise is condescending

i haven't pored over the list fully but i got kinda verklempt over Janis' Pearl getting such a high placing at #8

it's no small thing for me. I mean it seems obv to some i'm sure bc she's yawn classic rock

. but goddammit i caught so much bullshit from dudes & even a male teacher for loving janis as a high schooler, always basically summing her up as some kind of caterwauling harpie who only sang about being dumped & unpopular & i would yell and cry and hang my head & get so bummed about it

it's just a list & whatever but women collectively holding up artists who are women & saying HER WE LIKE HER LISTEN TO HER is cool & reinvigorating in a way that I wish i had more of in my early life

la lechera otm re 12 yr old

seeing janis on the dick cavett show at age 12 was a game changer for me. of course 12 yr olds have the capacity to absorb all kinds of music

Without text or context even

they do
i saw xtc on mtv and bought their album and it welcomed me to the garden of earthly delights BUT i would have loved to pore over a list like this too
there is room for everyone

(xposts) I loved seeing Pearl high too. Joplin had some visibility last year because of the documentary, but I don't know how well younger people know her in general (younger meaning, I don't know, 15-25). They should--she's endlessly interesting, and even if something like "Ball and Chain" at Monterey might be a bit much (I love it, but I can see how it might not be the best place to start), there's other more accessible stuff where you can find your way in. For me, as a teenager, that was "Down on Me."

Portishead too low.

http://www.okayafrica.com/music/150-african-records-by-african-women-you-should-listen-to/

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/05/magazine/should-women-make-their-own-pop-music-canon.html

The list might even seem unnecessary at a moment when women dominate popular music. The rapper Cardi B’s song “Bodak Yellow” became, in September, the first song by a solo female rapper to top the Hot 100 singles chart in 19 years. We’re flush with important, popular, critically adored, award-winning music by women. America can’t go 10 minutes with hearing about Taylor Swift, Beyoncé, Rihanna, Adele, Katy Perry and Lady Gaga. Most of the narratives in popular-music culture currently belong to them. (Right now, just about every UPS truck in the country has Swift’s image pasted on it.) But what happens in 20 years? Donna Summer once owned a chunk of popular music. Now she’s the epitome of a bygone era instead of the musician who paved a boulevard for lots of women who top charts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eJiN9iAILc

oh come on it's not that bad

idk why he includes the lie that women currently dominate popular music, tho, it's not like telling the truth (that women collectively have never dominated pop music even if occasionally individual women have) would have undercut the thesis

136. Yoko Ono/Plastic Ono Band
Yoko Ono/Plastic Ono Band (Apple Records, 1970)

if there is room for only i woulda gone with "Season of Glass". POB is great but alot of it is dudes jamming. she has written some amazing for-real songs that tend to get overlooked bc she is experimental.

I think the idea is that if you were to ask any random person who is big in music right now, they'd be more likely to cite Adele, Katy Perry, Taylor Swift or even Lady Gaga (who, relatively speaking, doesn't sell that many records anymore) over any current male pop star other than Drake or maybe Kanye (in which case, see Gaga). That this is based as much/more on public profile than sales is kind of the point. The Donna comparison is apt; mention her name and people think "disco," not "the 70s."

disco and the (mid to late) '70s are too tightly intertwined for me to separate

During these three months, I stamped a lot of records and artists “underrated.” Erykah Badu’s 2008 magnum opus, “New Amerykah Part One (4th World War),” was the most tragically timely and timeless album of any I’ve listened to — and I listened to five by Nina Simone. I also checked to confirm that Janet Jackson might always be our most undervalued pop star. (Yup.) A woman who became pretty good at seeing the state of the world had, by the time of “The Velvet Rope” in 1997, become even better at assessing the state of her art.

No arguments from this corner.

re: best Yoko albums, idk kinda depends what yr looking for. The jamz on POB are incredible. Approximately Infinite Universe has her most affecting songs/lyrics imo. Fly is maybe the most representative just for the range of styles, covers both the krautrock of POB ("Mind Train" etc.), the soul-baring balladry ("Mrs. Lennon"), and the avant-garde studio experiments ("Fly").

https://www.npr.org/2018/03/21/594970453/what-do-you-think-are-the-greatest-albums-made-by-women

Vote and post your lists here!

I didn't put a whole lot of thought into mine; just went with the first 10 that came to mind:

1. Pretenders
2. Welcome Home - Til Tuesday
3. Kate & Anna McGarrigle
4. Vanity 6
5. More Adventurous - Rilo Kiley
6. Blue - Joni Mitchell
7. Transgender Dysphoria Blues - Against Me!
8. Middle Cyclone - Neko Case
9. Science Fair - Emm Gryner
10. The Electric Lady - Janelle Monae

10 records, in no particular order:

Sofia Gubaidulina - Symphony, 'Stimmen… verstummen'; Stufen
Kaija Saariaho - Château de l'âme; Graal Théâtre; Amers
Rebecca Saunders - QUARTET; Into the Blue; Molly's Song 3 – shades of crimson; dichroic seventeen
Helena Tulve - Sula
Anna S. Þorvaldsdóttir - Aerial
Liza Lim - The Heart's Ear
Clara Iannotta - A Failed Entertainment
Doina Rotaru - L'éternel retour
Chaya Czernowin - Afatsim
Unsuk Chin - Akrostichon – Wortspiel

Henry and Lena Etchison - Songs from the Sourwood Mountains (Folkways, 1953)
Henry and Lena Etchison - Songs of the Crucifixion, Resurrection, and Botheration of Christ (Folkways, 1955)
Henry Etchison & Family - Waltzes, Reels, and Fireside Ballads (Folkways, 1956)
Bettie, Connie & Ginnie - Heartache Boogie-Woogie (Dot, 1958)
Aunt Olena Etchison - "'Ho!' Said the Guppy" and Other Folk Songs for Children (Folkways, 1961)
Mike Seeger and Aunt Olena Etchison - She Sings, I Strum (And Occasionally Sing!)(Rounder, 1973)
Ginnie Stewart - Night Sweats (Epic, 1977)
Carol Warner, Linda Powell, and Connie Etchison - Banjo Pickin' Gals (Rounder, 1993)
Connie Etchison - The Unbroken Circle (CD Baby, 2000)
Connie Etchison - Wild 'Bout My Lovin' (Third Man, 2007)

These albums.

i haven't submitted my ballot yet bc it keeps shifting. here's where i'm at rn

1. rickie lee jones: pirates
2. janet jackson: the velvet rope
3. sade: love deluxe
4. kate bush: aerial
5. britney spears: blackout
6. fleetwood mac: tusk
7. anita baker: rapture
8. sinead o'connor: the lion and the cobra
9. paramore: paramore
10. madonna: ray of light

I considered Rapture and Paramore

ten FYC

Julien Baker Sprained Ankle
Mary Margaret O'Hara Miss America
Be Your Own PET s/t
Made Out of Babies The Ruiner
Joanna Newsom Ys
Sleater-Kinney The Woods
Rachel Unthank and the Winterset The Bairns
M.I.A. Kala
Shiina Ringo Karuki Zamen Kuri no Hana
Cloud Rat Qliphoth

Don't really want to return to the original list but picking the one Nico album where she sang cover versions, of songs written by men, over the ones where she sang her own compositions is particularly O_0

I regretted not having room for Madonna or Sinead, so its good to see others picking up my slack.

Shiina Ringo Karuki Zamen Kuri no Hana

ha, just cut this one. it's perfect though

I submitted

Hejira - Joni Mitchell
Broken English - Marianne Faithfull
Indigo Girls - Indigo Girls
True Blue - Madonna
King - Belly
Aaliyah - Aaliyah
Speak Now - Taylor Swift
King's Record Shop - Roseanne Cash
Nightclubbing - Grace Jones
Wrecking Ball - Emmylou Harris

wish I'd found room for Sade & Kate Bush & Patsy Cline & Sinead &

I would vote in this but I don't like the idea of ranking those tbh

50 Foot Wave - Power + Light
Paramore - After Laughter
Warpaint - Heads Up
Blondie - Eat to the Beat
Lush - Spooky
Hole - Live Through This
Wolf Alice - My Love Is Cool
Wolf Alice Visions of a Life
Carly Rae Jepsen - Emotion
Taylor Swift - Fearless

Not ordered. Just off the top of my head. Could have gone further obvs.

Simon, it says #1, etc, but they say it's not ranked.

oh nice, good looking out

Oh fuck, I should have included Art Angels. Goddamn it.

joni mitchell - hejira
meshell ndegeocello - the world has made me the man of my dreams (i probably like bitter more but what an achievement)
minnie riperton - perfect angel
sade - stronger than pride
janet jackson - the velvet rope
alice coltrane - journey in satchidananda
shiina ringo - kalk samen kuri no hana
chubby wolf - ornitheology
tori amos - boys for pele
lauryn hill - mtv unplugged no. 2.0

submitted a list and then realized a whole bunch that i forgot (d'oh)

anyway, here's what i shoulda submitted

Joni Mitchell - Blue
Susanne Sundfør - Ten Love Songs
Hop Along - Painted Shut
Pretenders - Learning to Crawl
Blondie - Parallel Lines
Erykah Badu - New Amerykah Part One: Fourth World War
Minnie Riperton - Perfect Angel
Aretha Franklin - Young, Gifted & Black
Sleater-Kinney - Dig Me Out
Fiona Apple - The Idler Wheel...

lol how did i forget sleater-kinney, might replace something w the hot rock

hole - celebrity skin
britney spears - blackout
fleetwood mac - tusk
alice coltrane - journey in satchidananda
sade - stronger than pride
janet jackson - the velvet rope
aaliyah - aaliyah
cassie - cassie
kate bush - hounds of love
gal costa - gal costa

Be Your Own PET s/t

Great call

This is weird to me... the world is full of great albums made by women. Why list a random 10? Makes it seem like they can’t “compete on a level playing field” or something.

They're prob just doing a reader's poll and they think that more people will answer if they don't have to name 50

they are albums
they're made by women
albums
made - by - women

facts of life - black box recorder
stories from the city stories from the sea - pj harvey
dr buzzard's original savannah band st
madonna st
transgender dysphoria blues - against me!
velvet rope - janet jackson
elegant slumming - m people
big science - laurie anderson
so so satisfied - ashford & simpson
lady soul - aretha franklin

last train to paris and the xx felt too male

Joanna Newsom - Ys
Bjork - Vespertine
Kylie Minogue - Fever
Kate Bush - Aerial
Shiina Ringo - Shouso Strip
Tori Amos - Boys for Pele
Cocteau Twins - Heaven or Las Vegas
Susanne Sundfor - Ten Love Songs
Grouper - Dragging a Dead Deer Up A Hill
Fever Ray - Fever Ray

10 favourites off the top of my head

My only criteria was it had to be something I had legit worn out at one point (or several points) in my life.

Dig Me Out - Sleater-Kinney
Presenting the Fabulous Ronettes Featuring Veronica - The Ronettes
Celebrity Skin - Hole
Exile in Guyville - Liz Phair
Horses - Patti Smith
You Follow Me - Nina Nastasia and Jim White
Blackheart - Dawn Richard
Parallel Lines - Blondie
Pretenders - The Pretenders
Everything's Different Now - 'Til Tuesday

Fleetwood Mac - Tusk
Bjork - Homogenic
Joni Mitchell - The Hissing of Summer Lawns
Paramore - After Laughter
Electrik Red - How to Be a Lady Vol. 1
Kate Bush - Hounds of Love
Cat Power - You Are Free
Alice Coltrane - Journey in Satchidananda
Cocteau Twins - Treasure
PJ Harvey - Stories From the City, Stories From the Sea

Oh man, I really should have had The Dreaming on mine. Maybe I'll vote again.

Went ahead a did a second one...

The Dreaming - Kate Bush
The Lion and the Cobra - Sinead O'Connor
Dry - PJ Harvey
Raw Like Sushi - Neneh Cherry
Cut - Slits
Kala - M.I.A.
Supa Dupa Fly - Missy Elliott
King - Belly
Little Earthquakes - Tori Amos
Colossal Youth - Young Marble Giants

10's tough (i mostly listen to female artist tbh)

Pj Harvey - Is This Desire?
The Slits - Cut
Judee Sill - S/T
IAM - Kin
Gudrun Gut - I Put a Record On
Emiliana Torrini - Fisherman's Woman
Dawn Richard - Redemption
Catherine Ribiero + Alpes - Paix
Tori Amos - Boys for Pele
Roisin Murphy - Hairless Toys

This is what I came up with last night, but I might tweak it before I vote

Bonnie Raitt - Give It Up (Warner Bros., 1972)
LaBelle - Chameleon (Epic, 1976)
Mary Lou Williams - Mary Lou Williams (aka Black Christ of the Andes) (Folkways, 1964)
Minnie Riperton - Perfect Angel (Epic, 1974)
Portishead - 3 (Island, 2008)
Robyn - Body Talk (Konichiwa/Interscope, 2010)
The Breeders - Pod (4AD, 1990)
The Sundays - Reading, Writing and Arithmetic (Rough Trade/DGC, 1990)
Tori Amos - Little Earthquakes (Atlantic, 1991)
X-Ray Spex - Germfree Adolescents (EMI, 1978)

can't believe I'm leaving off Bjork, Beyonce, and Hole, but:

Lucinda Williams - Car Wheels on a Gravel Road
Sleater-Kinney - The Hot Rock
PJ Harvey - To Bring You My Love
Pistol Annies - Hell on Heels
Kathleen Edwards - Asking for Flowers
Joni Mitchell - Court and Spark
Donna Summer - Bad Girls
Madonna - You Can Dance
Liz Phair - Exile in Guyville
M.I.A. - Kala

A|A - Grouper
Pretenders - Pretenders
Before the World Was Big - Girlpool
The Big Science - Laurie Anderson
Ys - Joanna Newsom
What Would the Community Think - Cat Power
Visions - Grimes
Live Through This - Hole
Blue - Joni Mitchell
Plastic Ono Band - Yoko Ono

Kate Bush - Hounds of Love
A Girl Called Eddy - A Girl Called Eddy
Dusty Springfield - Dusty in Memphis
Aimee Mann - Magnolia
Grace Jones - Nightclubbing
Dorothy Ashby - Afroharping
Rachel Stevens - Come and Get It
Marianne Faithfull - Strange Weather
Billie Holliday - Lady in Satin
Tracey Thorn - Love and Its Opposites

Bjork - Homogenic
Stereolab - Emperor Tomato Ketchup
Broadcast - Tender Buttons
Susanne Sundfør - Ten Love Songs
Syreeta - Stevie Wonder Presents Syreeta
Saint Etienne - So Tough
Cocteau Twins - Heaven Or Las Vegas
Grace Jones - Nightclubbing
Minnie Riperton Adventures In Paradise
Erykah Badu - New Amerykah Part One

I've created a "women in song" playlist if anyone's interested - I could send via transfer.

Don't feel like picking ten, but Throwing Muses debut LP has to be in there somewhere.

Anti

enjoying the way there's no consensus on the Joni Mitchell albums here

The Weather Station - Loyalty
Joni Mitchell - Hejira
Patti Smith - Horses
Madonna - Ray of Light
Judee Sill - Heart Food
Kacey Musgraves - Same Trailer Different Park
Jenny Lewis - The Voyager
case/lang/veirs - s/t
Alice Coltrane - Journey in Satchidananda
Julien Baker - Sprained Ankle

if there was a definitive Billie Holiday album I would include it

really wanted to include Norah Jones - Come Away With Me as well...

xp: just based on our submissions alone, vote-splitting will do a few of these artists in.

Alice Coltrane - Ptah, the El Daoud
Bridget St. John - Songs for the Gentle Man
Grouper - Dragging A Dead Deer Up A Hill
Aretha Franklin - I Never Loved a Man the Way I Love You
Judee Sill - Heart Food
Joanna Newsom - Ys
Neko Case - Blacklisted
Matana Roberts - Coin Coin Chapter One: Gens de couleur libres
Grace Jones - Nightclubbing
Shirley & Dolly Collins - Anthems in Eden

I needs a definitive Dinah Washington album. Maybe Drinking Again?

For sure gave two votes each to Erykah Badu (Mama's Gun + New AmErykah Part One) and Bjork (Homogenic + Vespertine). Laurie Anderson, Kate Bush, Madonna, Chaka Khan and Nina Simone all got a vote and then I'm blanking on the other one.

I think maybe I voted for Amy Grant's Heart In Motion also? maybe I didn't vote for Emmylou Harris, I dunno.

heart in motion was in an earlier draft of my ballot and i should probably put it back in

Sleater-Kinney - Dig Me Out
PJ Harvey - To Bring You my Love
Joanna Newsom - Ys
Elastica - Elastica
Colleen - The Golden Morning Breaks

Electrelane - Axes
Cat Power - You Are Free
Stereolab - Transient Random-Noise Bursts...
Cocteau Twins - Treasure
Ladytron - Velocifero

ugh i forgot enya

Some voter's remorse already with the Ladytron one, could've put in some Boris or something instead.

Billie Holiday - Ken Burns Jazz
Dolly Parton - The Best of Dolly Parton ('75)
Ella Fitzgerald - Ken Burns Jazz
Aretha Franklin - I Never Loved a Man The Way I Loved You
Girl Group Greats
Joni Mitchell - For the Roses
Lucinda Williams - Car Wheels on a Gravel Road
Madonna - The Immaculate Collection
PJ Harvey - Stories From the City Stories From the Sea
Sleater-Kinney - One Beat

joanna newsom - have one on me
taylor swift - red
rihanna - anti
miranda lambert - platinum
grimes - art angels
dj sprinkles - midtown 120 blues
rilo kiley - more adventurous
grouper - A I A
everything but the girl - walking wounded
chromatics - kill for love

I dunno if I'll actually vote, but here's ten.

The Shangri-Las - Myrmidons of Melodrama
The Slits - Cut
X-Ray Spex - Germfree Adolescents
Cocteau Twins - Victorialand
Björk - Homogenic
Crass - Penis Envy
Joanna Newsom - Ys
SubRosa - More Constant Than the Gods
Tanya Tagaq - Retribution
Lingua Ignota - All Bitches Die

xp i would've put dj sprinkles on mine but from what i've read thaemlitz seems to be genderfluid and/or genderqueer? i mean, she uses she/her pronouns personally (but he/him as sprinkles (not that each has to align w male & female respectively)), but it seemed to me that she at least hasn't embraced the label of "woman." i could v well be wrong obv

yeah i'm super conflicted about that too!! there's an interview with the guardian that kinda unpacks that

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/oct/25/dj-sprinkles-terre-thaemlitz

"The gender lines are blurred –Thaemlitz turns up for our interview wearing “boy drag” and suggests that, if pronouns really have to be used, Terre is “she” and Sprinkles is “he”."

so, an album performed by a man but made by a woman? idk

part of the reason i put it was because of that question mark, though

in an npr piece from 2011: "Thaemlitz doesn't identify as exclusively male or female."

that said, i mean, a large reason why such a "music by women" list exists is bc of the structural and receptive and etc boundaries women in music face, and for a trans not-male person like thaemlitz that v much applies, really more so. but still, idk, i don't quite feel comfortable considering her in this context

absolutely fair. a counter-canon like this one is both a really good opportunity to talk more about an album like this, and also entirely insufficient for properly engaging with it holistically

there's a lot in here, also from 2011, too much to quote, but here's a snippet:

Maybe this is kind of similar, but what gender do you most feel like? In your heart?

It seems most people can say, "In my heart I know I am a woman/man," but if I am honest with you, I can only say that in my gut I do not feel like either. Whatever illogical impulses or inexplicable physiological compulsions I may identify within myself, they only seem to take on associations of gender at the social level, and this "gut feeling" influences my actions every day. When I identify as "transgendered" (usually qualifying it with the phrase "non-essentialist"), I do so as a convenience because it signifies a range of identifications other than female and male, or feminine and masculine. However, I am also skeptical of the construction of transgendered identities, which do not emerge independent of patriarchal dominations, and are in that way also symptomatic of conditions of gender oppression. I am particularly concerned with the ways in which medical industries construct transgendered bodies within heterosexist patriarchies, and the sexism underlying the visual aesthetics of cosmetic surgery in general

it's a weird and funny and uncomfortable interview that probably doesn't clarify anything in this context, except perhaps that it's requisite for someone to think about her stated relation to gender while considering something like this

extra .html in that link, whoops

Terre definitely read Testo Junkie and I'm so into that

Cocteau Twins - Heaven Or Las Vegas
Erykah Badu - New Amerykah Part One: Fourth World War
Kate Bush - The Dreaming
My Bloody Valentine - Loveless
Minnie Riperton - Come To My Garden
Britney Spears - Blackout
Janet Jackson - Control
Fleetwood Mac - Rumours
Lizzy Mercier Descloux - Mambo Nassau
Aaliyah - Aaliyah

A list that I will contradict immediately:

Susanne Sundfør - Ten Love Songs
Laura Nyro - Christmas and the Beads of Sweat
Brigitte Fontaine - Comme à la Radio
Kate Bush - Hounds of Love
Javiera Mena - Otra Era
Carol Douglas - Midnight Love Affair
Margie Joseph - Makes A New Impression
Diana Ross - Surrender
Georgia Anne Muldrow - Olesi: Fragments of an Earth
Josephine Foster - Blood Rushing

Seconding or thirding Elis Regina. What the fuck, NPR? No one has mentioned Joy of Cooking's first album, let alone their other 2 or the Terry Garthwaite solo stuff. No Esther Phillips, but, of course, Nina Simone. So I don't take it seriously at all, and then, their country stuff is also just lame. Very ahistorical list, the usual solemnities, etc. No fun.

https://www.npr.org/2018/04/09/600116052/turning-the-tables-the-150-greatest-albums-made-by-women-as-chosen-by-you

1. Joni Mitchell, Blue (Reprise, 1971)
2. Carole King, Tapestry (Ode, 1971)
3. Lauryn Hill, The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill (Ruffhouse/Columbia, 1998)
4. Kate Bush, Hounds of Love (EMI, 1985)
Pearl by Janis Joplin
5. Janis Joplin, Pearl (Columbia, 1971)
6. Patti Smith, Horses (Arista, 1975)
7. Amy Winehouse, Back to Black (Island, 2006)
8. Beyoncé, Lemonade (Parkwood/Columbia, 2016)
9. Tori Amos, Little Earthquakes (Atlantic, 1992)
10. Joni Mitchell, Court and Spark (Asylum, 1974)
11. Adele, 21 (XL/Columbia, 2011)
12. Liz Phair, Exile in Guyville (Matador, 1993)
13. Taylor Swift, 1989 (Big Machine Records, 2013)
14. Aretha Franklin, I Never Loved a Man the Way I Love You (Atlantic, 1967)
15. Björk, Homogenic (One Little Indian/Elektra, 1997)
16. Lucinda Williams, Car Wheels on a Gravel Road (Mercury, 1998)
17. Tori Amos, Boys for Pele (Atlantic, 1996)
18. Tracy Chapman, Tracy Chapman (Elektra, 1988)
19. Taylor Swift, Reputation (Big Machine, 2017)
20. Joni Mitchell, Hejira (Asylum, 1976)
20. Joanna Newsom, Ys (Drag City, 2006)
22. Bonnie Raitt, Nick of Time (Capitol, 1989)
23. Hole, Live Through This (DGC, 1994)
24. Kate Bush, The Dreaming (EMI, 1982)
25. Sleater-Kinney, Dig Me Out (Kill Rock Stars, 1997)
26. Melissa Etheridge, Yes I Am (Island, 1993)
27. Tina Turner, Private Dancer (Capitol, 1984)
28. Neko Case, Fox Confessor Brings the Flood (ANTI-, 2006)
29. Dusty Springfield, Dusty in Memphis (Atlantic, 1969)
30. Aretha Franklin, Lady Soul (Atlantic, 1968)
31. Fiona Apple, The Idler Wheel Is Wiser Than the Driver of the Screw and Whipping Cords Will Serve You More Than Ropes Will Ever Do (Epic, 2012)
32. Alanis Morissette, Jagged Little Pill (Maverick, 1995)
33. Taylor Swift, Red (Big Machine, 2012)
34. Lorde, Melodrama (Republic, 2017)
35. Stevie Nicks, Bella Donna (Modern/Atlantic, 1981)
36. Fleetwood Mac, Rumours (Warner Bros., 1977)
37. Björk, Vespertine (One Little Indian/Elektra, 2001)
38. Björk, Post (One Little Indian/Elektra, 1995)
39. Janet Jackson, Control (A&M, 1986)
40. Tori Amos, Under the Pink (Atlantic, 1994)
41. Solange, A Seat at the Table (Columbia, 2016)
42. Carly Rae Jepsen, E•MO•TION (Interscope, 2015)
42. PJ Harvey, To Bring You My Love (Island, 1995)
44. Linda Ronstadt, Heart Like a Wheel (Capitol, 1974)
45. Fiona Apple, When the Pawn... (Epic, 1999)
46. St. Vincent, St. Vincent (Loma Vista, 2014)
47. PJ Harvey, Rid of Me (Island, 1993)
48. Annie Lennox, Diva (Arista, 1992)
49. The Breeders, Last Splash (4AD/Elektra, 1993)
50. PJ Harvey, Stories from the City, Stories from the Sea (Island, 2000)
51. Rickie Lee Jones, Rickie Lee Jones (Warner Bros., 1981)
51. Lorde, Pure Heroine (Lava/Republic, 2013)
51. Blondie, Parallel Lines (Chrysalis, 1978)
54. Janelle Monáe, The ArchAndroid (Bad Boy/Wondaland, 2010)
55. Kate Bush, The Kick Inside (EMI, 1978)
56. Indigo Girls, Indigo Girls (Epic, 1989)
57. Joni Mitchell, The Hissing of Summer Lawns (Asylum, 1975)
58. Björk, Debut (Elektra, 1993)
59. M.I.A., Kala (XL/Interscope, 2007)
60. X-Ray Spex, Germfree Adolescents (EMI, 1978)
60. TLC, CrazySexyCool (LaFace, 1994)
60. Laura Nyro, Eli and the Thirteenth Confession (Columbia, 1968)
63. Rickie Lee Jones, Pirates (Warner Bros., 1981)
64. Sade, Diamond Life (Sony, 1984)
65. Dixie Chicks, Wide Open Spaces (Monument, 1998)
66. Laura Nyro, New York Tendaberry (Columbia, 1969)
67. Joni Mitchell, For the Roses (Asylum, 1972)
68. Madonna, Madonna (Sire, 1983)
68. Marianne Faithfull, Broken English (Island, 1979)
70. Fiona Apple, Tidal (Work Group/Clean Slate/Columbia, 1996)
71. Heart, Dreamboat Annie (Mushroom, 1976)
72. Brandi Carlile, The Story (Columbia, 2007)
73. Norah Jones, Come Away With Me (Blue Note, 2002)
74. St. Vincent, Strange Mercy (4AD, 2011)
75. Sarah McLachlan, Fumbling Towards Ecstasy (Nettwerk /Arista, 1993)
76. Madonna, Like a Prayer (Sire, 1989)
77. Melissa Etheridge, Melissa Etheridge (Island Records, 1998)
78. Erykah Badu, Baduizm (Universal, 1997)
79. Grimes, Art Angels (4AD, 2015)
80. Nina Simone, I Put a Spell on You (Philips, 1965)
81. Missy Elliott, Supa Dupa Fly (Elektra/The Goldmind Inc., 1997)
82. Florence + the Machine, Lungs (Island Records, 2009)
83. Madonna, Like A Virgin (Sire, 1984)
83. Sinead O'Connor, I Do Not Want What I Haven't Got (Ensign, 1990)
85. Janelle Monáe, The Electric Lady (Bad Boy/Wondaland, 2013)
86. Lana Del Rey, Born to Die (Interscope, 2012)
86. Joni Mitchell, Ladies of the Canyon (Reprise Records, 1970)
88. k.d. lang, Ingénue (Sire, 1992)
89. The Slits, Cut (Island Records, 1979)
90. Yeah Yeah Yeahs, Fever to Tell (Interscope, 2003)
90. Florence + the Machine, Ceremonials (Island Records 2011)
92. Laura Nyro and Labelle, Gonna Take a Miracle (Columbia, 1971)
93. Kate Bush, The Sensual World (Columbia Records, 1989)
94. Cocteau Twins, Heaven or Las Vegas (4AD, 1990)
94. Pretenders, Pretenders (Sire, 1980)
96. Bonnie Raitt, Luck of the Draw (Capitol, 1991)
97. Tegan and Sara, The Con (Sire , 2007)
97. Bonnie Raitt, Give It Up (Warner Bros., 1972)
97. St. Vincent, MASSEDUCTION (Loma Vista, 2017)
100. Joni Mitchell, Clouds (A&M, 1969)
100. Dolly Parton, Jolene (RCA, 1974)
102. Etta James, At Last! (Argo, 1960)
102. Alabama Shakes, Sound and Color (ATO, 2015)
104. Lady Gaga, The Fame Monster (Interscope, 2009)
105. Sade, Love Deluxe (Sony, 1992)
106. Whitney Houston, Whitney (Arista, 1987)
106. Beyoncé, 4 (Parkwood/Columbia, 2011)
108. Pat Benatar, Crimes of Passion (Chrysalis, 1980)
109. Grace Jones, Nightclubbing (Island Records, 1981)
109. Aimee Mann, Bachelor No. 2 (V2, 1999)
109. Joan Osborne, Relish (Mercury Records, 1995)
112. The Pretenders, Learning to Crawl (Sire Records, 1984)
113. Janet Jackson, Rhythm Nation (A&M, 1989)
113. Mary Chapin Carpenter, Stones in the Road (Columbia Records, 1994)
115. Cyndi Lauper, She's So Unusual (Portrait/Sony 1983)
115. Madonna, Ray of Light (Warner Bros., 1998)
117. Courtney Barnett, Sometimes I Sit and Think, and Sometimes I Just Sit (Marathon Artists, 2015)
118. Sinead O'Connor, The Lion and the Cobra (Ensign/Chrysalis, 1987)
119. Whitney Houston, Whitney Houston (Arista, 1985)
120. Cat Power, Moon Pix (Matador, 1998)
121. Sarah McLachlan, Surfacing (Arista Records, 1997)
121. Emmylou Harris, Wrecking Ball (Elektra Records, 1995)
123. Mary Chapin Carpenter, Come On Come On (Columbia, 1992)
123. Tori Amos, Scarlet's Walk (Epic/Sony Records, 2002)
125. Angel Olsen, My Woman (Jagjaguwar, 2016)
126. The Go-Gos, Beauty and the Beat (I.R.S. Records, 1981)
127. Neko Case, Middle Cyclone (ANTI-, 2009)
128. Carly Simon, No Secrets (Elektra, 1972)
129. Sleater-Kinney, The Woods (Sub Pop, 2005)
129. Alice Coltrane, Journey in Satchidananda (GRP/Impulse!, 1971)
131. Erykah Badu, Mama's Gun (Motown/Puppy Love, 2000)
132. Jewel, Pieces of You (Atlantic, 1995)
133. PJ Harvey, Dry (Island Records, 1992)
133. Joan Baez, Diamonds and Rust (A&M, 1975)
135. Big Brother and the Holding Company, Cheap Thrills (Columbia, 1968)
136. Nico, Chelsea Girl (Verve, 1967)
137. HAIM, Days Are Gone (Columbia Records, 2013)
138. Donna Summer, Bad Girls (Casablanca, 1979)
139. Nina Simone, Pastel Blues (Philips, 1965)
140. Dolly Parton, Coat of Many Colors (RCA Records, 1971)
141. Dixie Chicks, Taking the Long Way (Open Wide/Columbia Nashville , 2006)
142. The Bangles, All Over the Place (Columbia Records, 1984)
143. Mariah Carey, The Emancipation of Mimi (Island Def Jam, 2005)
144. Joan Jett, Bad Reputation (Blackheart Records, 1980)
145. Annie Lennox, Medusa (Arista Records, 1995)
146. Kate Bush, Never For Ever (EMI, 1980)
147. Norah Jones, Feels Like Home (Blue Note Records, 2004)
148. Taylor Swift, Fearless (Big Machine, 2008)
149. Erykah Badu, New Amerykah Part One (4th World War) (Universal Motown, 2008)
150. Joanna Newsom, Have One On Me (Drag City, 2010)

19. Taylor Swift, Reputation (Big Machine, 2017)
20. Joni Mitchell, Hejira (Asylum, 1976)

definitely the best part

19. Taylor Swift, Reputation (Big Machine, 2017)

what the flying fuck

loool

73. Norah Jones, Come Away With Me (Blue Note, 2002)
127. Neko Case, Middle Cyclone (ANTI-, 2009)
^^nice!

The quote in the article about hounds of love as “quintessential to being” is otm

Lots of great albums here if erring on the polite and MOR a little too much. hoped there might be room for throwing muses but I guess we could all insert our favorites.

Amelia Fletcher snubbed again

Happy to see Homogenic in the top 20!

No Paramore, but Grimes made it in at least.

I was hoping we could sneak Ten Love Songs in there somewhere. Overall, it's a surprisingly good list. Very happy to see Erykah Badu and Bjork do well. Cocteau Twins and Grace Jones are nice surprises too.

The biggest shock for me is no Madonna until number 68 and that the debut is her highest. It's my favourite, but I would have put money on Ray Of Light or Like A Prayer being much higher.

awesome artists missing here:

Danielle Dax
The Shangri-Las
The Raincoats
Dawn Richard
Ann Peebles
Ane Brun
Aimee Mann
Angel Haze
Au Revoir Simone
Barbara Morgenstern
Catherine Ribiero
Chelsea Wolfe
Claire Hamill
Dead Can Dance/Lisa Gerrard
El Perro del Mar
Electrelane
Maria Minerva

and where tf is suzanne vega

Interesting to see TBYML placing over ROM, even if it's just lol 5 places.

I voted for Electrelane but didn't expect them at all to place, and if the krautrock spot was going to be repped on this list, it would've been Stereolab.

smh no avril lavigne

i'm also a bit mad missy elliott got bumped all the way down to 81 from no. 5 in the original

I appreciated this paragraph from Ann Powers:

Other current mainstream artists with notoriously passionate fan bases, strangely, didn't see as much gain. Lemonade did come in at 8, but only one other Beyoncé album charted, and there's not even a whisper of Rihanna here. That omission, alongside the absence of most jazz and R&B musicians and any Latinx artist, may say more about who this poll reached, and the demographics of NPR Music readers, than those artists' legacies. (This is how a list becomes a signal to the organization that publishes it, to consider its own blind spots.) Legends whose careers peaked before 1960 also mostly dropped off the list or ranked low. I'm curious about what happened to Nina Simone. Her I Put a Spell on You, No. 3 on the original list, drops to 80 here. It makes me wonder: Has her re-emergence as a major historical figure been mostly symbolic? Is her music as resonant as her biography — and if not, should those of us with the power of playlists be doing more to get it out there?

I count about 30/150 albums being from women of color, many of whom were R&B musicians. Seems reasonably inclusive?

Also she probably doesn't need to say Latinx if she's specifically talking about Latina women. Agree about their absence, although Mariah Carey is part Venezuelan.

I can't believe I didn't include A Raw Youth by Le Butcherettes on my list though.

why does nobody ever vote for the best Laura Nyro album

Eli?

Continuing the series, The 200 Greatest Songs by 21st Century Women.

Liking J Shep’s contributions of non-American acts in my quick look at this so far.

"women+" is a non-starter for me. rules for this one were bizarre too

"Standing in the Way of Control" is way too low on the list.

tons of good songs

Khia too low :P

Sick to death of lists tbh.

I like playlists

200-101 probably more interesting than 100-1, as usual

personal faves not on the list: cat power, neko case, cupcakke, eleanor friedberger, fiona apple, jessie ware, weather station, weyes blood, selena gomez, melanie de biasio, alvvays

oh yeah and joan shelley but I realize she may be niche

cat power, neko case, fiona apple

all debuted before 2000 so they'd never appear on this list

the best part about that rule is that it would probably add like twenty names total and the actual cost would be like "I can't believe we have to have mention Missy Elliott instead of two Jenny Lewis/CARLY FUCKIN RAE JEPPERS songs" or "which of these completely forgettable Brooklyn/Philly/Boston indie rock bands won't make the cut"

Or just making the list 250 songs!

Yes. 70 plus contributors and it looks like none of them are listening to afropop -- sorry Yemi Alade but you did not make the list. The NPR "whirled music" person did get Noura Mint Seymali on this list of mostly Americans and Brits.

The NPR "whirled music" person did get Noura Mint Seymali on this list of mostly Americans and Brits.

Tanya Tagaq, too.

Completely erasing Missy Elliott, Aaliyah, Destiny’s Child, Erykah Badu, Mary J Blige and Sade from the canon in favor of a murderer's row of white privilege Pitchfork bands and a Tune-Yards song called "Powa" and then branding it all with THEY SLAY and "REWIND. REMIX. REPRESENT." and "Turning the Tables" is some real neoliberalism on parade

Completely erasing Missy Elliott, Aaliyah, Destiny’s Child, Erykah Badu, Mary J Blige and Sade

If this is the case (haven't paged through all 845 pages of the article, but if this is true, gtfo with this list NPR.

parts of this series remind me of this bit from the rap against rockism:

You can argue that the shape-shifting feminist hip-pop of Ms. Aguilera is every bit as radical as the punk rock of the 1970's (and it is), but then you haven't challenged any of the old rockist questions (starting with: Who's more radical?), you've just scribbled in some new answers.

now, to be fair, there are some very interesting revelations here. but especially as you climb up to the top, say, 77 or so, you don't have a whole lot of stripped-era aguilera-type cuts so much as what you'd get if you just polled your very standard cross-section of rockcrits w/ very standard rockcrit taste, extended the resultant list as far as you'd need to get (x) women artists, then cut all the male artists out. is it all that necessary to remind everyone that "since u been gone" "dancing on my own" "crazy in love" "umbrella" "paper planes" "maps" and all the other women-led songs that have become tokens in the standard male-rockcrit canon are good songs? not so sure myself!

i appreciate the very lucid and incisive criticisms of the first-release cutoff rule, especially those highlighting how that criterion inadvertently ends up reproducing the wider industry's cruel ageist tendencies that disproportionately harm women.

some of the exceptions to the rules were bizarre too. like, apparently the works of eve and kelis can be neatly bifurcated into pre- and post-y2k eras? idek

I'm having a hard time thinking of Ms. Aguilera as being every bit as radical as Poly Styrene or Liliput or Exene Cervenka. Please, no firing squad--I'm sure it's a fine list.

Kelis did have a little dead zone in America because the best song of her career flopped and her second album never came out

I love the shot of the pom(?) around 51 seconds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-dAOVM1C8M

Ann Powers who curated this says the artists had to have their impact in the 21st century. Arguably, Missy Elliott’s post 2000 work had more of an impact than her pre 2000 efforts.

She said debut in 21st or impact

Same with Aaliyah and, as @maura points out, Kylie

Completely erasing Missy Elliott, Aaliyah, Destiny’s Child, Erykah Badu, Mary J Blige and Sade from the canon in favor of a murderer's row of white privilege Pitchfork bands and a Tune-Yards song called "Powa" and then branding it all with THEY SLAY and "REWIND. REMIX. REPRESENT." and "Turning the Tables" is some real neoliberalism on parade

no wonder the US is a divided country when this is a liberal/progressive take on this list

Ann Powers who curated this says the artists had to have their impact in the 21st century. Arguably, Missy Elliott’s post 2000 work had more of an impact than her pre 2000 efforts.

― curmudgeon, Wednesday, August 1, 2018 9:21 AM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

aint no 'arguably'

no wonder the US is a divided country when this is a liberal/progressive take on this list

― niels, Thursday, August 2, 2018 1:11 AM (five hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

the list unquestionably, IMO, and drastically underrates R&B

like i haven't checked but just as an example did any keyshia cole songs make it

most of these seem at least informed by rnb imo:

19. Beyoncé, "Formation" (2016)
15. Nicki Minaj, "Super Bass" (2010)
12. Solange, "Cranes In The Sky" (2016)
11. Janelle Monáe (ft. Big Boi), "Tightrope" (2010)
8. Alicia Keys, "Fallin'" (2001)
7. Sharon Jones & The Dap-Kings, "100 Days, 100 Nights" (2007)
6. Lorde, "Royals" (2013)
4. Amy Winehouse, "Back To Black" (2006)
3. Beyoncé, "Single Ladies (Put A Ring On It)" (2008)
1. M.I.A., "Paper Planes" (2007)

anyway, surely some genres/artists are represented as always, just find it... I dunno what word to use... remarkable maybe, that a liberal/progressive reaction to National Radio's attempt at challenging a male dominated canon would be calling it neo liberalist bullshit

I'm not going to spend time hatereading reddit comments about the list, but I'm sure a lot of people find the very concept of a list with no men offensive

underrepresented*

you show those reddit men you just imagined, niels

you don't think they exist?

What type of brain disease would I need where I get mad at hypothetical Reddit posts that I invent in my head

haha that's a bit rich but I gather you think I'm insane for imagining how a list like this would be received in certain forums?

...yes?

for what it's worth this is the reddit thread

https://www.reddit.com/r/LetsTalkMusic/comments/6pvq4m/lets_talk_nprs_150_greatest_albums_made_by_women/

most of these seem at least informed by rnb imo:

19. Beyoncé, "Formation" (2016)
15. Nicki Minaj, "Super Bass" (2010)
12. Solange, "Cranes In The Sky" (2016)
11. Janelle Monáe (ft. Big Boi), "Tightrope" (2010)
8. Alicia Keys, "Fallin'" (2001)
7. Sharon Jones & The Dap-Kings, "100 Days, 100 Nights" (2007)
6. Lorde, "Royals" (2013)
4. Amy Winehouse, "Back To Black" (2006)
3. Beyoncé, "Single Ladies (Put A Ring On It)" (2008)
1. M.I.A., "Paper Planes" (2007)

Lmfaoooooooooooooooo

(from last year's list; this year's list doesn't seem to have as much commentary but https://www.reddit.com/r/indieheads/comments/93253b/npr_list_the_200_greatest_songs_by_21st_century/)

From /r/popheads

https://www.reddit.com/r/popheads/comments/934a2i/npr_the_200_greatest_songs_by_21st_century_women/

yeah I was just about to link that but the too reddit didn't read is that the list was received basically how it was received here; T_D types generally don't follow music to this degree

It's an interesting list, but the ranking order is all over the place. When you have stuff like Britney Spears' ...Baby One More Time (which aside from the singles is pretty dire, and one of her worst albums honestly) higher than Young, Gifted and Black by Aretha Franklin, your list can't be all that great.

Still, it's refreshing because most other best of albums lists are indeed very male dominated, and even rock-oriented. Whereas there seems to be a lot of diversity in this list.

Wow, the top voted Reddit comment. These absolute savages. These fucking monsters.

(there's also a /mu/ thread apparently but I'm not clicking it at work)

/mu/ is not talking about this right now

But you can read these threads:

Where's theneedledrop?: Why are Fantano's scores still not appearing in the reception section of album articles in Wikipedia?

The only reason people think Birds in the Trap was bad is because of Fantano's opinion. If he gave it a good score everyone on reddit and /mu/ would think it was good. Fuck Anthony Fantano. And fuck mindless drones. Astroworld is going to be AOTY.

He everyone, VIEWSTHONY WHORETANO here, the internet's most desperate music nerd. And it's time for a review of another imexplicably positive review of a terrible SoundCloud rap album because that's what my underaged fanbase wants to hear.

Hi my name is Frank Zappa and my musuic is garbage

Why are there so many pseuds and contrarians on this board? Do they think they're above others for having an inferior taste in music? Help me out here, /mu/.

Post based and redpilled RYM reviews

they were as of two days ago https://i.imgur.com/seSvPqF.png

(google search link because, again, I'm not clicking this at work, so for all I know it could be fawningly positive)

it's not

but this is a good time as ever to guess which ILXors have soy face

happy to hear the reddit thread is not bad

still think it's v weird to describe this list as neo liberal

also d40 what's the joke pls

xpost it is “weird” and makes zero sense but I would ignore it

discussion piece between 2 of the writer contributors to the list(intro to it below)

As the list took shape, it became impossible not to notice that the songs in this canon share a common backbone. Many of the songs, and more namely the song's creators, owe their catchy, joyous, triumphant, sexy, strong, aching, resilient ethos to black, Latin and Afro Caribbean musical roots. From streaming to radio, the influence of Latin, Caribbean and R&B music is apparent across all modern genres in the new millennium.

To untangle this common thread, NPR Music's Stefanie Fernández and Sidney Madden charted the work of women of color on this list and examined the ways agency and identity have become central in breaking down pop music's barriers.

https://www.npr.org/2018/08/01/634184379/reclaiming-the-rhyme-how-black-women-and-latinas-have-reshaped-pop-music

They followed in the footsteps of those who could not choose: Selena Quintanilla, Gloria Estefan, Jenni Rivera, Celia Cruz, and so many others.

FTR, I interviewed Jenni Rivera once and she said she would never want to record in English. That if she ever did, it would be an album of old doo-wop songs and love ballads like you'd hear on Art Laboe's radio show, but she had zero interest in crossing over to a pop audience.

Also, both these women are bad, clumsy writers who really could have used an editor to teach them how not to sound like marketing executives.

and with that

https://i.imgur.com/zGHQb4O.gif?2

What type of brain disease would I need where I get mad at hypothetical Reddit posts that I invent in my head

probably a very similar one to the sort that would make you get mad at hypothetical ILX posters or movie viewers or readers or music listeners or bacon eaters that you invent in your head

x-post to Unperson--Fernandez does not sound like a "marketing executive" here :

The mainstreaming and whitewashing of reggaeton, a genre born from working class black Panamanians (like La Atrevida) in the late 1980s and pioneered in the 1990s by listmaker Ivy Queen (No. 60 with "Quiero Bailar"), by white or light-skinned Latin pop artists has facilitated the pop transformation of Afro-Caribbean genres to the point where they are barely recognizable. In the early 2000s, genres shaped and fundamentally conceived from poverty and racism like reggaeton and soca were still dismissed as classless and vulgar; the vestiges of this thinking can still be seen in the perceived vulgarity of Latin trap artists like Bad Bunny and the new wave of reguetoneras like Karol G, Natti Natasha and Anitta who seem to have been left behind by the success of their peers more palatable to the American market.

She also acknowledges that "There are no reggae or soca songs on the list..."

Fine, but it's still bad and clumsy writing, based on phony premises, starting (in the excerpt you quoted) with the fact that Ivy Queen is herself light-skinned. We could also talk about the fact that Gloria Estefan had multiple Top 40 English-language hits, and she and her husband Emilio managed Shakira's move into pop. These writers are painting a portrait of victimization and marginalization that just doesn't match the facts. I mean, when you're gonna call Gloria fucking Estefan someone who couldn't choose her own career moves, you really need to stop and rethink. And you know this stuff, probably even better than I do.

also d40 what's the joke pls

― niels, Thursday, August 2, 2018 10:14 AM (six hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

the idea that that selection somehow adequately represents or even comprehends R&B's musical contributions this decade is laughable

also you missed Jazmine Sullivan, a rare counterexample to what i'm actually talking about

I didn't say that selection "adequately represents" 21st century R&B

you wrote that "the list unquestionably, IMO, and drastically underrates R&B" and I wanted to make the point that the top 20 was full of R&B-informed songs (I didn't "miss" Sullivan, she's at #137 and I was quoting the top 20)

but I'm no expert on contemporary R&B would love to see your list of 20 representative tracks

Ok, the idea that it’s noteworthy a lot of music would be “r&b-informed” is basically useless—pop music as a whole is r&b infomed

But this canon clearly pushes against the r&b canon, or treats it w oblivious disdain & there’s no real analysis of what’s lost or missing

that was indeed carefully phrased, I'd say Sharon Jones and Amy Winehouse is straight up (revivalist) rhythm and blues, stuff like Solange, Beyoncé and Alicia Keys comfortably contemporary R&B

list has Ciara, King, Jhene Aiko, Tweet, Jill Scott, Kali Uchis, India Arie, Blu Cantrell, Sza but maybe you feel it's missing Cassie, Dawn Richard, Kehlani, Kelela, Tinashe?

Anyway I'm really not looking for an argument here, I just thought the criticism seemed perhaps a bit out of proportion with the offensiveness of the list. I think it'd be great if you would share your idea for a 21st century female rnb canon, maybe there isn't really one?

One last time on my pet peeve--

She also acknowledges that "There are no reggae or soca songs on the list..."

Sorry Faye-Ann Lyons, you don't rate

plus no afropop/afrobeats (programmed beat African music) artists-- Sorry Yemi Alade, you don't rate.

Anyway I'm really not looking for an argument here, I just thought the criticism seemed perhaps a bit out of proportion with the offensiveness of the list. I think it'd be great if you would share your idea for a 21st century female rnb canon, maybe there isn't really one?

― niels, Friday, August 3, 2018 6:25 AM (ten hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i have to provide my own canon to argue this ignores large portions of the actual R&B canon?

how about destiny's child, brandy, missy, amerie, keyshia cole, mariah carey, mary j blige, erykah badu, aaliyah, keri hilson, jennifer hudson, janet, fantasia, teedra moses, ashanti ... im sure im missing people

the interpretation of "R&B" as portrayed by the list feels limited by critical acclaim & a lack of investment in / immersion in R&B discourse imo...saying "but kali uchis" is a strike against yr point. even your examples of who should have made it hews very close to crit-friendly singing fare (surprised you didn't say FKA twigs?) ignoring the post-church music soul/R&B wing in favor of the kind of stuff that appeals to critics & brits lol

im not counting their 'premiered in the 00s' excused since they break it arbitrarily & because the genre is literally driven by women in their 30s/40s consumer wise so it seems absurd

K Michelle too, surely? Or are you only talking 00’s here?

Not looking at the list I know it’s missing Chavela Vargas and therefore not worth my time.

Kudos for Selena in the top 20 though if that’s the list that was copy pasted above.

Actually that list is pretty decent.

Still no Chavela Vargas makes me sad. I suspect it’s also missing many afro+latin singers but that could be a separate list.

1000% k Michelle

Sevyn streeter

“Motivation” by kelly Rowland >>>>

Hell yeah

amerie and fka both on the list

you don't have to argue anything, I accept that this list is missing a lot of rnb I just want to know what it is because I like the genre

motivation is definitely missing!

I missed Amerie (I don’t consider Fka r&b)

reggaeton is easily more popular than any other form of latin music in america right now

it's great to see I'm With Her finally getting the credit they deserve.